International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

  1. 1 Thursday, 5th March 1998.

    2 (10.05am)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and

    5 gentlemen. Mr. Registrar, will you call the case,

    6 please?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: It is case number

    8 IT-95-14-1, the Prosecutor versus Zlatko Aleksovski.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I turn to the Office of

    10 the Prosecutor now. Can we please have the appearances

    11 this morning for the International Criminal Tribunal?

    12 MR. NIEMANN: My name is Niemann. I appear

    13 with my colleagues, Mr. Meddegoda, Mr. Marchesiello,

    14 Ms. Sutherland and Ms. Erasmus for the Prosecution.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And, for the Defence.

    16 MR. MIKULICIC: Good morning, your Honours,

    17 my name is Goran Mikulicic; together, along with my

    18 colleague, Mr. Joka, we represent the Defence.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Let us now resume the

    20 hearing, and we have another witness of the

    21 Prosecution, I believe?

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, that is

    23 correct. I call Mr. Junhov.

    24 JUDGE VOHRAH: May we enquire if that is the

    25 last witness for the week?

  2. 1 MR. NIEMANN: Not the last for the week; we

    2 have two for tomorrow, but it is the only witness for

    3 today, I am afraid.

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Sir. Can

    6 you hear me well?

    7 A. Yes, I hear you.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You are going to read the

    9 solemn declaration given to you by the usher, please.

    10 A. Yes. I solemnly declare that I will speak

    11 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated.

    13 A. Thank you.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And, please, answer the

    15 questions that the Prosecutor, Mr. Niemann, I think, is

    16 going to put to you?

    17 A. Okay.


    19 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    20 Q. Would you state your full name for us,

    21 please?

    22 A. My name is Torbjorn Junhov.

    23 Q. Mr. Junhov, what is your date of birth?

    24 A. I was born 2nd August 1937.

    25 Q. Are you a citizen of Sweden?

  3. 1 A. Yes, I am.

    2 Q. And, in 1993, did you join the European

    3 Community Monitoring Mission to the former Yugoslavia?

    4 A. Yes, I did.

    5 Q. And do you remember when, in 1993, you joined

    6 the Monitoring Mission?

    7 A. I left Sweden on 23 March and stayed for the

    8 first week in Zagreb at the headquarters of the ECMM

    9 for a kind of introduction training and then I left

    10 Zagreb via Split and was appointed a Monitor in the

    11 regional centre in Zenica.

    12 Q. And did you have any specific tasks when you

    13 were appointed in Zenica?

    14 A. I started as a newcomer -- I started as a

    15 member of the Busovaca Joint Commission.

    16 Q. What was the Busovaca Joint Commission --

    17 what was that?

    18 A. It was some kind of a cooperation,

    19 organisation between the two parties, the Muslims and

    20 the Croats, in Busovaca.

    21 Q. And how were the parties represented at this

    22 Commission?

    23 A. They were represented by local military

    24 commanders, brigade commanders, and even local

    25 politicians.

  4. 1 Q. And what was the purpose of the Busovaca

    2 Commission?

    3 A. The purpose was to establish law and order

    4 and to establish a cease-fire, withdrawal of troops and

    5 reunification of the community -- how you call it --

    6 civil part of the community.

    7 Q. Restoration of the community?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And when was it first set up?

    10 A. It was set up before I arrived and I think it

    11 was set up during the winter 1991-92.

    12 Q. And winter 1991-92?

    13 A. Yes -- perhaps it is spring time 1992. I do

    14 not remember exactly.

    15 Q. I see. And what position did you have on the

    16 Busovaca Commission when you were appointed?

    17 A. During the first weeks I was, so to say, an

    18 ordinary Monitor -- I was a member of the committee.

    19 Q. And where did the Commission meet?

    20 A. Sorry?

    21 Q. Where did the Commission meet -- where did

    22 you meet?

    23 A. The meetings were held at different places,

    24 depending on the agenda or the meeting. Sometimes it

    25 was in the municipality meeting in the centre of

  5. 1 Busovaca and sometimes it was at some of the UN

    2 peace-keeping forces or UNPROFOR camps and sometimes it

    3 was out in a village where trouble was going on, so we

    4 moved around in the area.

    5 Q. And what was the nature of the matters

    6 discussed at the commission meetings?

    7 A. During the first period, it was to establish

    8 a cease-fire and to withdraw troops from the area, to

    9 fill up trenches, and to reorganise the civilian

    10 government in the municipality.

    11 Q. And fill up trenches where -- where did you

    12 have to fill up trenches?

    13 A. The most discussion was the main road from

    14 Busovaca, first, towards Kiseljak.

    15 Q. In addition to filling up trenches, did you

    16 become involved in other issues apart from those that

    17 you have mentioned, such as withdrawal of troops and

    18 filling up of trenches and reorganising of the civilian

    19 government -- did you become involved in anything else

    20 other than that?

    21 A. Yeah, there were very often discussions about

    22 who should start and why, and where to start, and when

    23 we tried to push the local commanders to take

    24 initiatives they always had some excuses not to do it

    25 -- at least not today, perhaps next week. It was very

  6. 1 often a discussion of missing people from the local

    2 area.

    3 Q. And how did these issues about missing people

    4 -- how did they arise?

    5 A. They arose at the meeting when we tried to

    6 push them to start doing something, they said -- very

    7 often they said, "Okay, we see the need for that, but

    8 we do not do it before we get an answer to where is our

    9 missing people".

    10 Q. And how did you go about resolving that

    11 question?

    12 A. That was not, of course, one of our most

    13 important tasks, so we cooperated in all these

    14 questions with the ICRC organisation that had an

    15 officer in Zenica.

    16 Q. And what was the nature of the cooperation

    17 that you had with the ICRC?

    18 A. Very often, we -- the ICRC took part

    19 sometimes in the committee meetings and if we got

    20 information during our work in the field -- we got, for

    21 instance, lists of missing people -- we handed it over

    22 to the ICRC.

    23 Q. And how did you go about resolving the

    24 question of where these missing people were? What did

    25 you do in order to resolve this issue?

  7. 1 A. There was no systematic work from our side,

    2 because we did not regard it as a main task for us in

    3 the very beginning, but, of course, we asked people

    4 when we were travelling around in the area, "Do you

    5 know something about some detainees, people, here, or

    6 some prisoners?", or something like that, and we tried

    7 to track where they could possibly be held.

    8 Q. And did you believe that these people were

    9 being detained in some sort of detention centres in

    10 various locations?

    11 A. Yes, we got -- later on, we spotted such

    12 places.

    13 Q. And can you remember the names of some of

    14 these places now?

    15 A. Yes, there were -- the most -- the biggest

    16 one was to Kacuni prison in the north of Busovaca at

    17 the main road in the Lasva Valley.

    18 Q. Apart from Kacuni?

    19 A. There were other camps also, with smaller

    20 groups of people held.

    21 Q. And just going back for a moment, you said

    22 that you started off just as an ordinary observer with

    23 the Busovaca Commission. Did you later take a more

    24 formal appointment on that Commission?

    25 A. Yes, after a couple or three weeks, I was

  8. 1 appointed chairman of the committee.

    2 Q. You also mentioned the fact that you were --

    3 part of the issues involved were the filling of

    4 trenches. So far as you are aware, did you ever

    5 succeed in getting these trenches filled?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Now, apart from these issues that you

    8 discussed, was there any other role that you performed

    9 -- the implementation of any other programme that you

    10 were involved in?

    11 A. There were a number of cease-fire agreements

    12 established on the top level -- the governmental level

    13 in Bosnia Herzegovina, signed by the top commanders of

    14 HVO and BiH, and we received these agreements with a

    15 task to take part in the implementation -- to look to

    16 -- that the agreement were known by local commanders

    17 and that they were, so to say -- I am missing the word

    18 -- to implement the agreement on the local level.

    19 Every single battalion group in the area, or deployed

    20 in the area.

    21 Q. What about international initiatives, did you

    22 have any involvement with those?

    23 A. In what way -- in the international --

    24 Q. International initiatives, were you involved

    25 in any way in the implementation of international

  9. 1 initiatives that --

    2 A. Yes. Later on, in May and June, I was

    3 appointed -- the Busovaca Joint Commission broke down

    4 and it was replaced by a joint operational command

    5 located in Travnik and, during that period, I was also

    6 appointed as -- from the ECMM, part of the

    7 responsibility -- I was appointed as responsible for

    8 implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan in province

    9 number 10.

    10 Q. What was the Vance-Owen Plan?

    11 A. The Vance-Owen Plan was -- in my personal

    12 opinion, it was a kind of desk job from New York, or

    13 the United Nations headquarters and there was obviously

    14 no response on the local level to implement it. They

    15 regarded the borders as unnatural -- there were areas

    16 with no natural context that were brought together and

    17 other natural areas that belonged to each other were

    18 separated by new borders.

    19 Q. Did you encounter difficulties in the

    20 implementation of this plan?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And was it because of these factors that you

    23 have mentioned?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Was the implementation of the plan ultimately

  10. 1 successful, or did it fail?

    2 A. It was a big failure.

    3 Q. I just want to take you back to these

    4 meetings that you had, particularly when you were in

    5 the Busovaca Commission. Can you remember the names of

    6 some of the persons that you met at these particular

    7 meetings?

    8 A. I find it very hard to remember names, but

    9 one frequent member of the committee was an HVO brigade

    10 commander in Busovaca and his opposite number from the

    11 Muslim side was -- he introduced himself as President

    12 of the War Presidency and he had his headquarters in

    13 Kacuni, south of Busovaca.

    14 Q. Do you know what his name was?

    15 A. I do not remember.

    16 Q. Did you ever have occasion to go and visit

    17 one of these camps that you mentioned?

    18 A. Yes, I did. The reason for that was that we

    19 had a meeting in Zenica with the ICRC, and we were

    20 presented with a problem that, according to the ICRC

    21 people, was some kind of root to all problems in the

    22 area, and that was persons -- international or

    23 foreigners -- that were detained in the area -- Muslim

    24 people that were detained and the ICRC had no track at

    25 all of it, and, as a member of the Busovaca Joint

  11. 1 Commission, I was asked by the ICRC to make a check in

    2 the area if there might be some camp or prison where

    3 these so-called muhajedeen could be placed.

    4 Q. What did you do?

    5 A. So we asked the local people in Busovaca if

    6 there was any camp or prison there, and the answer was

    7 positive, there is a prison in Kaonik.

    8 Q. When they said there was a prison in Kaonik,

    9 what did you do?

    10 A. I went there to visit it, and to see what it

    11 was.

    12 Q. Were you on your own, or were you in the

    13 company of others?

    14 A. Yes, we were -- the Monitor team, I had a

    15 German colleague, his name was Dieter Schnelsmith and

    16 then we had a local interpreter, and a driver.

    17 Q. When you went to Kaonik, what happened?

    18 A. When we spotted the place, and turned in on

    19 the main road into the area, there was a guard and we

    20 were stopped at the gate, and we presented our

    21 documents that were freedom of movement in the area,

    22 but we were stopped and the guard told us he had no

    23 authority to let us in. So then I went back to the

    24 police station in Busovaca and took contact with the

    25 chief of the police and told him I wanted to go to the

  12. 1 prison, and I wanted to be let in there and I wanted to

    2 see what is in there.

    3 Q. When was this, approximately what time?

    4 A. It was 1st April.

    5 Q. And what happened when you went back to the

    6 police in Busovaca?

    7 A. He wrote permission.

    8 Q. Did he ask you why you wanted to see it?

    9 A. No, but of course he was not -- in the first

    10 place, he was not so willing to -- "what should you do

    11 there?". I said, "I just want to see the place, what

    12 is going on there and that is part of my mission as a

    13 Monitor."

    14 Q. Did he ultimately -- I think you said he gave

    15 you permission?

    16 A. Yes, there was no long discussion, just a few

    17 minutes.

    18 Q. What happened -- what did you do then?

    19 A. So I then got a paper from him and I went

    20 back to the camp and presented it at the guard and they

    21 let us in, and drove up the road to the first building,

    22 and stopped there and there was -- I do not remember

    23 exactly if there were people from the guard that

    24 escorted us up there, or if there were people there

    25 already that met us, but we were met by some soldiers

  13. 1 and I told them, "I want to go in this building and see

    2 what is going on."

    3 Q. How were the soldiers dressed, can you

    4 recall?

    5 A. As ordinary soldiers, some parts of

    6 camouflage uniforms and some civilian clothes -- it was

    7 a mixture.

    8 Q. And did they have any insignia or anything

    9 that you could see?

    10 A. Most of them had the HVO insignia.

    11 Q. Okay. And what happened when you said you

    12 wanted to go inside?

    13 A. Yeah, I was let in, and I was met by a person

    14 that introduced himself as -- I do not remember if he

    15 said he was in charge of the prison, or he was a

    16 commandant, but he was obviously, in my opinion, the

    17 responsible person for the prison.

    18 Q. Are you able to describe the person that you

    19 met?

    20 A. Let us say he was about 40 years old, not so

    21 high, 165, 170 (indicating), a bit fat or round, and he

    22 spoke no English, so we had to communicate by the

    23 interpreter.

    24 Q. And, when you met this person, did he give

    25 his name or do you remember his name?

  14. 1 A. I do not remember his name.

    2 Q. And, when you met this person, what happened

    3 then?

    4 A. He took us into the building and he had some

    5 kind of office in there, with a desk and he had a file

    6 and he asked us to identify ourselves, and he noted our

    7 ID card number that we presented him with.

    8 Q. Now, when you were there, did you take some

    9 photographs?

    10 A. Yes, I did.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at this

    12 photograph that I now show you, please, and there is

    13 one for your Honours and one for the Defence -- I think

    14 the Defence has their copy.

    15 Might this photograph be placed on the ELMO

    16 once it is given the next Prosecution exhibit number in

    17 order, if your Honours please. (Handed).

    18 THE REGISTRAR: It is document number 66.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: I want you to leave that on

    20 the screen because that can then be seen by all of us.

    21 I want you to tell me, firstly, do you

    22 recognise the photograph you see there?

    23 A. Yes, I have taken it myself.

    24 Q. When did you take it -- was that the day you

    25 went there, that you have just been describing?

  15. 1 A. Yes, it was.

    2 Q. What is it a photograph of?

    3 A. This is the first building -- the main

    4 entrance road is up here, and this is the first

    5 building and there is another building further off

    6 there. (Indicating on photograph).

    7 Q. And the witness is pointing to the far

    8 right-hand side of the photograph looking at the

    9 photograph, in the middle section of the right-hand

    10 side.

    11 Did you gain an impression of what this

    12 building could have been -- its past history, when you

    13 looked at it?

    14 A. It looks very like the Swedish army's

    15 ordinary munitions stores.

    16 Q. Why did you have that opinion, that it looked

    17 like a munitions store, and I think you said a Swedish

    18 army one, but why did you have that impression?

    19 A. The size of the building. It is a concrete

    20 building, there is a loading ramp along the building

    21 for the handling of heavy equipment to load off and

    22 load on trucks.

    23 Q. The witness is pointing to the front of the

    24 building immediately behind the car that appears in the

    25 forefront of the building -- the Audi car, I think it

  16. 1 is?

    2 A. And a quite big door, you could open the door

    3 and my impression was it was used to handle big, heavy

    4 equipment with a fork truck or something like that.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I tender that, if

    6 your Honours please.

    7 When you went inside the building, of course,

    8 what did you see?

    9 A. The building was, so to say, parted by a

    10 corridor along the building, and a number of doors on

    11 each side of the corridor.

    12 Q. And what did those doors appear to be?

    13 A. They were -- seemed solid and they were

    14 locked, and it appeared to be cells for prisoners.

    15 Q. When -- okay, I tender that. That may now be

    16 handed up.

    17 When you went inside this building - and you

    18 said you had a meeting with the person who described

    19 himself as either being in command, or the commander,

    20 and he took some details from you -- then what happened

    21 after the details were taken, where did you go then?

    22 A. Then I told him that I would like to get an

    23 opinion of what kind of facility this was, and I asked

    24 him, "What is it?". He said it was a prison. "What

    25 kind of prisoners do you have here?"; "Ordinary

  17. 1 criminals" was the answer. Then I said, "Do you mind

    2 if I look into the cells here?"; "No, you are free to

    3 choose" he said. I pointed at one door and it was

    4 open, and inside there was one single man -- hard to

    5 say his age -- between 20 and 30 -- and I asked him,

    6 "Why are you locked up here?", and he said he was

    7 sentenced to 10 years prison for murder and then

    8 I turned around and pointed at a door at the other side

    9 of the corridor, "Could you open this door, please?",

    10 and it was open and inside there, there were five

    11 persons in the same cell.

    12 I asked, "What kind of people are these?";

    13 "They are arrested"; "For what?" And also, "They are

    14 foreigners and they are arrested because they were

    15 armed and they had no passports or documents that were

    16 legal for a visit in the area". And then I asked the

    17 persons in the cell, "Where do you come from? What is

    18 your mission here?". They described themselves as

    19 missionaries, they were supporting the Muslim people in

    20 Bosnia, and they were from different, other Arab or

    21 other Muslim countries.

    22 Q. Are these the people -- were these the people

    23 that you had thought were the muhajedeen that --

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Did you ask them why they were in prison?

  18. 1 A. Yes, I asked them, "Why are you in prison

    2 here?", and some of them said, "I do not know, I have

    3 done nothing criminal. I was just arrested and put in

    4 here."

    5 Q. Did you determine -- did you ascertain

    6 whether or not they had been charged with any crime, or

    7 whether they had stood trial for any crime?

    8 A. They were not accused for any crimes,

    9 according to their own statement.

    10 MR. NIEMANN: And now looking at the

    11 photograph that I show you -- (Handed). There is one

    12 for your Honours.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 67.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: Just again looking at the

    15 document that appears on the machine beside you there,

    16 do you recognise that photograph?

    17 A. Yes, it is my own photograph.

    18 Q. And what is it a photograph of?

    19 A. It is taken from the entrance door to the

    20 cell and these are the five so-called muhajedeen.

    21 (Indicating).

    22 Q. And these are the people that you had the

    23 conversation with?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Did they tell you where they had come from?

  19. 1 A. Yes. I asked them and now I do not remember

    2 which individual it was, from which country they were,

    3 but if I may, I have some notes in my diary --

    4 Q. Are you asking their Honours' permission to

    5 let you to refer to those notes?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: Might the witness have

    8 permission.


    10 A. One of them was from Egypt, another from

    11 Pakistan, a third one from Tunisia and another one from

    12 Algeria, according to my notes.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph.

    14 Did you manage to observe what conditions

    15 were like in this particular camp when you were there?

    16 A. Yes. If I refer to the standard of a Swedish

    17 person, it was not acceptable to keep people in such

    18 conditions.

    19 Q. And why was that?

    20 A. Because these five persons, they sat in one

    21 cell. They had a common bed, there were no toilets,

    22 there was no possibility to wash yourself, and medical

    23 care was non-existent, according to the people I talked

    24 to, and there were also bad food -- bad eating.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at this next

  20. 1 photograph that I show you -- perhaps you might tell me

    2 what that is. (Handed).

    3 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 68.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: Again, can you recognise this

    5 photograph?

    6 A. Yes, that is -- in the right-hand corner in

    7 the cell (indicating) and it is what the prisoners call

    8 -- "it is our kitchen". There were some casseroles or

    9 -- where they got their meal, their food, but there

    10 was no heating on this -- it was only a desk or what

    11 you could call it.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honours.

    13 A. With some drawers in and packets of biscuits

    14 -- very simple food.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that.

    16 You described that there was a bed. Did you

    17 manage to look at the bed and determine what sort of a

    18 bed it was?

    19 A. It was one common bed alongside one wall in

    20 the cell, and they had to sleep together in the same

    21 bed.

    22 Q. And did you see whether it had a mattress or

    23 whether it had a base or anything of that nature -- you

    24 may not have seen that?

    25 A. Yes, it was some kind of mattress, a dirty

  21. 1 one, with some blankets.

    2 Q. Now, you mentioned there was no toilet in the

    3 cells. Did you see toilets anywhere else?

    4 A. No, I did not, but I did not ask for it,

    5 either.

    6 Q. Did the conditions in the cells appear clean,

    7 or were they dirty?

    8 A. Dirty -- very dirty and it was a smell that

    9 was awful.

    10 Q. What about the prisoners themselves, did they

    11 appear clean or dirty?

    12 A. Dirty -- very dirty, unshaven, and dirty

    13 clothes. I do not think they have had a shower for the

    14 last month.

    15 Q. Did you then discuss this question with the

    16 person who had identified himself as the commander or

    17 the person in charge?

    18 A. Yes. I was -- perhaps I can describe it as a

    19 bit upset over the conditions in the prison, so I asked

    20 him about his knowledge of the Geneva Conventions and

    21 he told me he knew it and he had a copy of it in his

    22 desk.

    23 Q. So he knew about the Geneva Conventions and

    24 he had a copy?

    25 A. Yes, and he told me, but, in my opinion, the

  22. 1 conditions in the prison were not in accordance with

    2 the Conventions.

    3 Q. Now, after you had spoken to these five

    4 gentlemen that have been depicted in the photograph,

    5 what did you do then, and the commander -- what did you

    6 then do?

    7 A. Yes, then, in my opinion, I have fulfilled my

    8 mission -- I have found these five persons that I was

    9 looking for, so I said, "Thank you" and I left the

    10 place and delivered a message to the ICRC that these

    11 five people are in the Kaonik prison.

    12 Q. Now, did you have occasion to then discuss

    13 the issue of the Kaonik prison again?

    14 A. Yes. Now and then during my whole period in

    15 Central Bosnia, there was discussions about missing

    16 people and we were -- at almost every meeting we were

    17 presented with lists from both sides of missing

    18 people. Sometimes it was just a scrap of paper with a

    19 written name, or sometimes it was long lists of up to

    20 30, 40, 50 names from different areas in the Central

    21 Bosnia. ECMM had no means whatsoever to handle all

    22 this information, so we consequently handed it over to

    23 the ICRC because they had the computer systems and

    24 could track every individual.

    25 Q. But did you have a meeting about the prisons

  23. 1 on 7 April 1993?

    2 A. Again, I would like to contact my diary.

    3 Q. Yes?

    4 A. 7 April?

    5 Q. Yes?

    6 A. On 7 April there was a meeting with the

    7 coordination committee. It was a meeting with the

    8 coordination committee in an UN camp in Kakanje.

    9 Q. In your statement that you gave to the Office

    10 of the Prosecutor, there is a date appearing, 4 April

    11 1993. What do you say about that?

    12 A. 4 April? I do not understand what you are

    13 asking for.

    14 Q. Perhaps I might rephrase the question. We

    15 were talking about this meeting at Kakanje of the

    16 coordinating committee on 7 April 1993?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. I mention the fact in your statement you say

    19 it is 4 April. Is that a mistake?

    20 A. Yes, that is a mistake.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at the

    22 photographs I now show you? (Handed).

    23 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 69.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Do you recognise that

    25 photograph?

  24. 1 A. Yes, it is my photo.

    2 Q. And what is it a photograph of?

    3 A. It is from the coordination committee meeting

    4 in Kakanje.

    5 Q. And, looking at the photograph, can you

    6 identify any of the people that you see photographed

    7 there?

    8 A. Yes, the meeting was chaired by the head of

    9 the regional centre in Zenica from ECMM, the French

    10 ambassador Jean-Pierre Tibo. On his left-hand side,

    11 there is Colonel Blaskic from HVO and, on his

    12 right-hand side, there is Major -- Lieutenant General

    13 Hasihasinovic, who was a commander of the III Army

    14 Corps BiH.

    15 Q. Where was the III Army Corps BiH

    16 headquartered?

    17 A. It was in the iron factory in Zenica.

    18 Q. And where was the HVO headquartered that

    19 Colonel Blaskic was --

    20 A. His headquarters were in Hotel Vitez in

    21 Vitez.

    22 Q. Do you see the insignia on the arm of Colonel

    23 Blaskic? Is that the sort of insignia you saw at the

    24 camp?

    25 A. Yes, this was the normal HVO insignia.

  25. 1 Q. And the gentleman on the far end -- either

    2 far end, one next to Colonel Blaskic, do you know who

    3 that was?

    4 A. That was -- as I understood it, it was some

    5 kind of political adviser or political assistant to the

    6 Colonel.

    7 Q. And the gentleman on the other far end, the

    8 opposite far end?

    9 A. He was the opposite number from the Muslim

    10 side. I do not remember their names.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your

    12 Honours.

    13 Was there any discussion about the Kaonik

    14 prison at this particular meeting?

    15 A. Yes. Among all other items on the agenda

    16 there was a question from the Muslim side about the

    17 Kaonik prison and it was a request or a demand to get

    18 this prison examined.

    19 Q. Examined by whom?

    20 A. Or inspected.

    21 Q. Examined or inspected by whom?

    22 A. According to a decision in the committee, the

    23 task was given to the ICRC.

    24 Q. And --

    25 A. And the ICRC were regularly taking part in

  26. 1 these kind of meetings.

    2 Q. And what was the response from Colonel

    3 Blaskic and the HVO in relation to this request for an

    4 inspection?

    5 A. I have no clear memory of that. I do not

    6 remember -- there was some kind of refusal -- there was

    7 obviously some suspicion, attitude from the Muslim side

    8 that there was something going on in Kaonik that they

    9 did not know. That was my opinion of the request.

    10 Q. And was there any particular demand made at

    11 the meeting with respect to the prisoners?

    12 A. I do not remember that, and I have no notes

    13 of it.

    14 Q. What about the five prisoners that you had

    15 seen before, had they been released at that stage, or

    16 had they been discussed at this meeting?

    17 A. Yes, there was not -- as far as I remember,

    18 there were no discussions in detail at this meeting.

    19 Q. Now, was there then a later meeting in

    20 relation to release of prisoners from Kaonik prison?

    21 A. Yes, there was later on, when, according to

    22 my opinion, when the Muslim side did not experience

    23 some success in the request to get these people out --

    24 they tried to create some pressure on the Croat side,

    25 and that started with a kidnapping of a Croat Colonel.

  27. 1 He had been in a meeting in our headquarters in Zenica

    2 and when he left the meeting he was kidnapped by some

    3 Muslim forces.

    4 Q. And what happened as a result of that?

    5 A. Then a couple of days after that kidnapping,

    6 there was a visitor to our headquarters in Zenica with

    7 a videotape, and he asked us to present this videotape

    8 to the HVO headquarters, and we did so, and it was an

    9 appeal from this kidnapped Colonel to establish some

    10 kind of exchange of prisoners.

    11 Q. And was it effective?

    12 A. Not at that moment.

    13 Q. What happened?

    14 A. The decision from the HVO headquarters was,

    15 "We do not deal with these kind of people."

    16 Q. And who made that decision, did you know?

    17 A. We were presented with the decision in the

    18 headquarters in the Hotel Vitez, and I do not know

    19 which person -- individual person -- had taken the

    20 decision.

    21 Q. And what happened then?

    22 A. Then, another day after that, there were a

    23 new -- of course, we delivered the result to the Muslim

    24 side, and then, after another couple of days, there was

    25 a new kidnapping in the Travnik area, and a group of

  28. 1 Croat officers were kidnapped and they were reported

    2 missing within the Croat organisation, and, after

    3 another couple of days, we had a new visitor with a new

    4 videotape, with all these four or five officers

    5 appealing to his -- to their commander to make a deal

    6 with the Muslims and exchange the prisoners.

    7 After we had presented this tape in the Hotel

    8 Vitez, there was a decision, "Okay, let us go for it".

    9 Q. And was a date set when this would occur?

    10 A. Yes, it was -- (Pause).

    11 Q. Perhaps I can assist you. Would you look at

    12 your diary on 9 May 1993 and see if that rings a bell?

    13 A. 9th?

    14 Q. Yes?

    15 A. I have a note here, "Please release the civil

    16 members of the government in Kaonik", but that was

    17 another case -- that was the politician from Travnik

    18 area.

    19 Q. Sorry, I think there was a meeting on 9 May.

    20 Perhaps I can assist you a bit more. Can you go to 16

    21 May?

    22 A. The 16th? 16 May, there was an exchange of

    23 prisoners in the Vitez area, but that has nothing to do

    24 with the so-called muhajedeen release. Okay. That is

    25 here -- the release was planned during the week before

  29. 1 this date and then it was carried out in cooperation

    2 between the UN BRITBAT and the ECMM and it took place

    3 in what we called the blue factory. It was a factory

    4 on the road in the Lasva Valley -- if you travel from

    5 Zenica up to Busovaca, just before the road junction to

    6 Busovaca, there was a blue factory and there we had an

    7 exchange point of these muhajedeen and they were

    8 transported there from different places in the Central

    9 Bosnia.

    10 Q. Those notes you are reading from, when did

    11 you make them?

    12 A. Pardon?

    13 Q. When did you make those notes that you are

    14 reading from?

    15 A. The same day, and the ICRC were also

    16 represented and took notes of -- identification notes

    17 of the people.

    18 Q. So these included the people that you had

    19 seen in the Kaonik camp?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Was there ever an exchange at the Kaonik camp

    22 that you attended?

    23 A. Yes, there was another exchange of civilians.

    24 Q. When did that take place?

    25 A. There were so many -- I have a photo of a

  30. 1 release of prisoners from Kaonik. Perhaps you could

    2 refer to my statement -- it is easier for me to find

    3 it.

    4 Q. You take your time and look through your

    5 diary and see if you can find it. (Pause). To speed it

    6 up a bit, can you just see what you were doing on 17

    7 May 1993?

    8 A. The 17th?

    9 MR. NIEMANN: 17 and, while you are doing

    10 that, your Honours, perhaps I might show the witness

    11 another photograph?

    12 A. I have a short note, "Busovaca local

    13 commission meeting at 10 o'clock, release of detained

    14 persons and prisoners" -- a very short notice.

    15 Q. Just looking at this photograph you are now

    16 shown -- put away your diary for a moment and just look

    17 at this photograph, if you would. (Handed).

    18 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 70.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Do you recognise that

    20 photograph?

    21 A. Yes, it is also a photo that I have taken

    22 myself.

    23 Q. Would you turn the photo over, please? Do

    24 you see writing that appears on the back of that

    25 photograph?

  31. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Do you recognise that writing?

    3 A. Yes, it is my signature.

    4 Q. And what does it say?

    5 A. "Release of detained persons from Kaonik

    6 prison on 17 May 1993. The detainees are Muslims from

    7 the area."

    8 Q. When did you write that?

    9 A. I wrote it in October last year, when I was

    10 talking to the -- to your investigator.

    11 Q. Thank you. Turn the photograph back over

    12 again, please. Are you able to say what it is a

    13 photograph of?

    14 A. Yes, it is the same building as before, and

    15 the main entrance into the prison and the people who

    16 are lined up in front of the building, they were these

    17 detained Muslim people -- local people.

    18 Q. And, so far as you were concerned, were these

    19 people civilians?

    20 A. Yes, they were.

    21 Q. And, apart from the people that are lined up

    22 there, can you point to and recognise any other persons

    23 there, other than prisoners?

    24 A. Yes, this man, he is my team mate

    25 (indicating), a Dutch Monitor, Hank Morsenk. This girl

  32. 1 was from ICRC, and this guy was also a servant from

    2 ICRC. There is some other representatives here --

    3 might be representatives from the Medicine Sans

    4 Frontiers, and here is some Croat soldier or guard --

    5 this is also Croat people working in the prison here.

    6 Q. And so the Croat person working in the prison

    7 here that you have just referred to, for the sake of

    8 identification, is the second male standing on the

    9 platform on the right-hand side of the photograph

    10 looking at the photograph.

    11 What were these people lined up for -- what

    12 were they doing here, on this date, 17 May 1993?

    13 A. They were detained without -- no reason at

    14 all, just for some kind of bargain chips, or something

    15 to have to exchange to something else.

    16 Q. And why are they lined up here?

    17 A. For identification and to book them off the

    18 ICRC's lists.

    19 Q. What happened to them, do you know?

    20 A. After this identification procedure, they

    21 were released and the ICRC had some buses that

    22 transported them back home.

    23 Q. Did you actually see where they were taken to

    24 yourself, or is that just something that you had

    25 learned?

  33. 1 A. I did not see it myself -- I saw them enter

    2 the bus, but where the journey ended, I do not know.

    3 Q. Fair enough.

    4 A. But the journey was supervised by the ICRC.

    5 Q. And, after they had entered the bus, what did

    6 you do then?

    7 A. I continued my job as a Monitor. I noted,

    8 okay, this business is okay, it is fixed, and then we

    9 take the next item.

    10 Q. Did you have any discussion with these people

    11 at all, or were you just there present?

    12 A. Of course I talked to some of them, to get an

    13 opinion of why are they here, and they had been picked

    14 up in the area around Busovaca.

    15 Q. In their homes, or where?

    16 A. Yes, mostly.

    17 Q. And what sort of condition did they appear to

    18 be in?

    19 A. They were -- of course, they were happy to be

    20 released, but I do not know how long they had been

    21 here, but they did not seem to be in too bad condition.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph now, if

    23 your Honours please.

    24 When you say you had discussions regarding

    25 the release of these prisoners and, in particular, the

  34. 1 prisoners from -- the international prisoners from

    2 Egypt and other places, can you recall who you had

    3 discussions with at this stage, or was it just

    4 representatives from the HVO?

    5 A. I do not remember the names of people, but

    6 there were different kinds of meetings -- the so-called

    7 top level meeting that was chaired by our head of

    8 regional centre, and there were -- on this meeting

    9 there were also the commanders from both sides, and

    10 then we had meetings on the level below that, with the

    11 local commander, brigade commanders and local

    12 politicians, local police chiefs, and so on.

    13 Q. I want to move to another topic, if I may.

    14 During the course of the period of time that you were

    15 there as an European Monitor, and, in particular,

    16 during 1993, did you ever have occasion to visit

    17 Tomislavgrad?

    18 A. Yes, Tomislavgrad is a small city situated on

    19 the road that we used when we entered Bosnia. It was

    20 some 20, 25 kilometres east of Split.

    21 Q. And is Tomislavgrad in Bosnia, or is it in

    22 Croatia?

    23 A. It is just inside the border on the Bosnian

    24 side.

    25 Q. When you were in there, did you observe any

  35. 1 troops in Tomislavgrad?

    2 A. I visited Tomislavgrad four or five times and

    3 my impression was that it was always a lot of troops

    4 there, and there were -- my idea as a professional

    5 officer was that Tomislavgrad was used as some kind of

    6 a refreshing of units or units that had been in

    7 fighting that were withdrawn for resting and freshening

    8 up.

    9 Q. And could you determine what particular units

    10 they belonged to?

    11 A. I did not make notes of that, but it was, of

    12 course, HVO soldiers or HVO units.

    13 Q. Was it only HVO?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. You did not see any others?

    16 A. Not as I remember.

    17 Q. I see. When you were in Bosnia, did you --

    18 Bosnia Herzegovina, did you see any other Croatian, if

    19 I might call it, military units other than HVO?

    20 A. Yes, there were other groups of -- I do not

    21 know if it is adequate to call them military units, but

    22 at least groups of soldiers with black uniforms and a

    23 mark -- with "HOS".

    24 Q. And what were your dealings with the HOS in

    25 terms of -- where did you see them and what did you do

  36. 1 when you saw them?

    2 A. We saw them now and then on different

    3 locations in the whole area of Central Bosnia, and our

    4 experience as Monitors was that, when these groups were

    5 out -- were seen somewhere, we had a joke -- we said,

    6 "You can bet there will be trouble" when you saw these

    7 soldiers.

    8 Q. And did that prove to be true?

    9 A. Yes, it was.

    10 Q. And, did you yourself have dealings,

    11 personally, with these people?

    12 A. Yes, I met them -- our basic view of it was

    13 to avoid them.

    14 Q. And why?

    15 A. Because they were, in our opinion, not

    16 trustworthy and they were behaving brutally and so on.

    17 Q. And why did you feel they were not

    18 trustworthy so far as you were concerned?

    19 A. The reason for that was, of course, what we

    20 heard from other people and other Monitors who had been

    21 in trouble with them, and there was some kind of a

    22 gentlemen's agreement within the Monitor corps -- do

    23 not go in contact with these people, try to avoid them.

    24 Q. What about HV, did you ever see anyone

    25 wearing HV insignia?

  37. 1 A. Not as far as I remember.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I have no further

    3 questions.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I think that this would be

    5 a good time for a 20-minute break before we begin with

    6 the cross-examination. Therefore, we will adjourn for

    7 20 minutes.

    8 (11.14am)

    9 (A short break)

    10 (11.35am)

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Sir, now you are going to

    12 be asked questions by the Defence. Up until now you

    13 have been asked questions by the Prosecutor, so the

    14 Defence counsel, Mr. Mikulicic, you have the floor.

    15 Cross-examined by MR. MIKULICIC.

    16 Q. Thank you, your Honours.

    17 Good morning, Mr. Torbjorn Junhov.

    18 I apologise if I mispronounce your name. Is it

    19 Torbjorn?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And Mr. Junhov?

    22 A. Yes, that is the family name.

    23 Q. That is the correct pronunciation, I believe?

    24 A. Yes, it is.

    25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be put

  38. 1 on for the witness, please?

    2 Q. My name is Goran Mikulicic and I represent

    3 the Defence in this case. I will pose several

    4 questions and I would like you to answer to them, to

    5 your best memory.

    6 Mr. Junhov, you said how you came to the area

    7 of Central Bosnia and how you became a member and then

    8 the president of the joint mission in Busovaca. You

    9 told us that, as a member and then the president of

    10 this Commission, you had meetings with local military

    11 and civilian persons including their superiors; is that

    12 correct?

    13 A. That is correct.

    14 Q. Mr. Junhov, could you please take a look at

    15 the person sitting behind me, and for the record I am

    16 pointing to the accused Zlatko Aleksovski; tell us, was

    17 this man ever, as you recollect, was he ever present at

    18 any meetings in Busovaca which you attended?

    19 A. Is this the person -- could you raise your

    20 hand? (Indicates to the accused).

    21 (Accused stands).

    22 A. I have no memory that I met this guy at the

    23 prison, but I recognise his face, from probably some

    24 other occasion.

    25 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. Junhov, I did not ask

  39. 1 about the prison; I was asking about the meetings of

    2 the joint commission in Busovaca. To your

    3 recollection, did this man ever attend any of these

    4 meetings at any time?

    5 A. I have met this man -- I recognise his face,

    6 but I cannot say exactly when and where, because it is

    7 five years ago.

    8 Q. Mr. Junhov, according to the notes which you

    9 took from these joint meetings in Busovaca, would you

    10 be able to recall that one of the persons attending

    11 these meetings would be someone named Zlatko

    12 Aleksovski?

    13 A. I do not remember the name.

    14 Q. Thank you.

    15 Mr. Junhov, what was your motivation, or what

    16 was your objective, what was the goal of your visit to

    17 the Kaonik facility near Busovaca?

    18 A. The reason for the first visit was to look

    19 for these persons that ICRC had asked us to look for.

    20 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber which

    21 persons you are referring to?

    22 A. It was the regional office of ICRC in Zenica,

    23 and there were a lot of people there, but at this very

    24 moment, if I remember correctly, it was a French

    25 gentleman -- I do not remember his name -- and he was

  40. 1 head of ICRC missions in Central Bosnia.

    2 Q. I apologise -- we had a misunderstanding.

    3 When I asked about persons, I was thinking about

    4 persons in Kaonik that you went to try to find out, who

    5 were in Kaonik?

    6 A. Yes, those were these five muhajedeen.

    7 Q. Thank you.

    8 You described to us the events during your

    9 first visit to Kaonik when the guard did not admit you

    10 into the compound. Can you tell us, how was the guard

    11 dressed? Was he dressed in civilian clothes, or was he

    12 a soldier?

    13 A. Almost all the soldiers, they had mixed

    14 uniforms and civilian clothes. They were armed.

    15 Q. You said that after that you went to get a

    16 permit, which would enable you to enter the compound;

    17 is that correct?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Is it correct that you went to get this

    20 permit at the police station in Busovaca?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Is it correct that you received this permit

    23 at the police station in Busovaca?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Mr. Junhov, how do you explain this

  41. 1 situation: a soldier does not allow you to enter this

    2 compound and then the civilian police issue you a

    3 permit to enter it? What is your explanation of this

    4 seemingly absurd situation?

    5 A. I do not remember exactly the discussions

    6 with the guards, but I asked to whom could I appeal to

    7 get permission to enter the area and he referred to the

    8 chief of police in Busovaca.

    9 Q. Yes, but we are talking about the chief of

    10 the civilian police here; is that correct?

    11 A. Yes, I went to the police station in central

    12 Busovaca and I cannot identify these people if they are

    13 civilian police or military police, or what kind, but

    14 this officer had his office in the police station in

    15 central Busovaca.

    16 Q. Thank you.

    17 Mr. Junhov, how long were you at Kaonik that

    18 first time -- how long did your visit take?

    19 A. I think from the first attempt to get in

    20 there until I left, it was about one and a half hours,

    21 something like that -- perhaps two hours.

    22 Q. And, this time includes your trip to Busovaca

    23 to get this permit; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Yes, but how much time did you spend in the

  42. 1 facility itself once you received the permit?

    2 A. I talked to the commander for about a quarter

    3 of an hour, and then my discussions with the

    4 muhajedeen was about 20 minutes or maximum half an

    5 hour, so I would say I spent totally just around one

    6 hour in the building, or perhaps a little bit less.

    7 Q. Do you remember where you conducted your

    8 conversation with the commander, as you call him -- the

    9 prison commander?

    10 A. When I entered the building, he had his

    11 office in the right-hand end, so to say, of the

    12 building, and I do not remember if it was in a separate

    13 room, or if his desk was in the corridor, but it was at

    14 the right-hand end in the building.

    15 Q. I see.

    16 At that time, how many cells did you review

    17 in this building?

    18 A. Only these two that I referred to -- the

    19 first one with the man who was sentenced for murder,

    20 and then, just by random, I happened to point at the

    21 right door.

    22 Q. Mr. Junhov, when you described the conditions

    23 at the prison, at Kaonik, you -- and I quote you --

    24 comparing it to the Swedish standards, these conditions

    25 were not good?

  43. 1 A. Not at all.

    2 Q. Mr. Junhov, since we are talking about the

    3 Swedish standards here, which is what you used when

    4 judging the conditions there, can you tell the Trial

    5 Chamber and all of us what were the roads like, the

    6 infrastructure, the homes, the supply at that location

    7 in comparison to the Swedish standards?

    8 A. Of course, it was not the Swedish standard at

    9 all, because it was a lot of damage in the whole

    10 society -- of course it was.

    11 Q. Mr. Junhov, you mentioned that the largest

    12 camp at that time was the camp in Kacuni; is that

    13 correct?

    14 A. I did not remember I said it was the largest

    15 one, but it was -- compared to some other places where

    16 the detained persons were held, it was -- seems to be a

    17 big one.

    18 Q. That is what I was referring to --

    19 I apologise if I misinterpreted what you had said.

    20 Under whose control was this camp in Kacuni?

    21 A. According to my opinion, the commander at the

    22 Kacuni prison was under the command of the police --

    23 chief of police in Busovaca.

    24 Q. Do you remember -- and we are talking now

    25 about the ethnic background -- which persons were

  44. 1 imprisoned in this camp in Kacuni?

    2 A. I do not understand the question -- which

    3 person, or --

    4 Q. Mr. Junhov, I am going to ask you directly:

    5 who were the prisoners at Kacuni, and in terms of

    6 either their belonging to a military organisation or to

    7 their ethnic origin?

    8 A. The first one --

    9 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, might I object?

    10 It is not really an objection -- it is just a

    11 clarification. I am not sure whether counsel is asking

    12 about the place that I mentioned and what the witness

    13 mentioned in chief -- Kacuni or Kakanje -- I think

    14 there might be two places. I think it might be helpful

    15 if that was clarified, because there may be some

    16 confusion.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, can you

    18 clarify your question, please?

    19 MR. MIKULICIC: Maybe it would be the

    20 simplest thing if I could rephrase my questions in

    21 order to avoid any kind of misunderstanding.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, continue, please.

    23 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, thank you.

    24 Mr. Junhov, apart from Kaonik, how many

    25 similar facilities of similar -- with similar purpose

  45. 1 did you visit during your stay in Bosnia?

    2 A. Kaonik prison was, so to say, permanent. As

    3 I got it, it was more or less a permanent prison, but

    4 other places we saw were temporary. They were local

    5 school buildings or basements in ordinary houses that

    6 were used to, so to say, store detained persons and it

    7 was both on the Croat and Muslim side.

    8 Q. I see.

    9 Can you tell us what were the conditions in

    10 these other facilities which you just mentioned in

    11 comparison to the conditions at Kaonik?

    12 A. It was -- it is hard to separate them, but it

    13 was not acceptable conditions anywhere.

    14 Q. Were the conditions which you found at

    15 Kaonik, which were below the Swedish standards -- were

    16 they also below the conditions at these other

    17 facilities which you also saw and mentioned? Were they

    18 poorer or were they more or less the same as in these

    19 other locations?

    20 A. It is hard to separate them, because it was

    21 far below any acceptable standard anywhere.

    22 Q. I understood that, but, in relation to what

    23 else you saw in Central Bosnia, can you make any kind

    24 of comparison in that respect, because this entire case

    25 is highlighting the situation in Central Bosnia?

  46. 1 A. Of course, I understand your point to the

    2 question. The standard -- average standard everywhere,

    3 even for civilians -- everybody was of course affected

    4 by the hostilities, and the standard in Kaonik prison

    5 was -- I cannot say it was worse than other places

    6 I saw, but I -- this was also, you should remember, my

    7 first visit to such a facility and my reaction was very

    8 strong, that it was very, very bad standard in all

    9 aspects in the prison.

    10 Q. I understand.

    11 Mr. Junhov, you showed us photographs which

    12 you took -- which you personally took on that occasion

    13 at Kaonik. Did you take some other photographs at

    14 other facilities?

    15 A. Yes, I have photographs, for instance, from

    16 the HVO military prison in Kiseljak and I have

    17 photographs from a Muslim detainee camp -- I do not

    18 remember the name -- it was on the road from Busovaca

    19 to Kiseljak. It was a gas factory -- we also released

    20 detained persons.

    21 MR. MIKULICIC: I see.

    22 Since we are talking about photographs,

    23 I would like to request that the usher puts the exhibit

    24 number 67 on the ELMO, please.

    25 Can you identify the object that is hanging

  47. 1 from the wall on the left-hand -- upper left-hand

    2 corner of this photograph?

    3 A. It is a towel.

    4 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. We can move on to

    5 the exhibit number 68. (Handed).

    6 Correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Junhov, but

    7 I believe that the object which was -- of which you

    8 took a photograph here was described as some kind of

    9 stove -- cooking stove?

    10 A. No, it was not -- there was no heating

    11 equipment here. It was only -- I do not know the

    12 English name of it. It is a chest of drawers where

    13 they had their food. This is some casserole with water

    14 and it was -- I do not know if it was a coffee pan or

    15 what it was (indicating) and some biscuit package.

    16 Q. I understand.

    17 Mr. Junhov, does this mean that these persons

    18 -- and we are talking about this object, is from the

    19 cells in which the muhajedeen were staying; is that

    20 correct?

    21 A. Yes, inside this cell.

    22 Q. Does that mean that these persons actually

    23 prepared their own food?

    24 A. I do not know if they were served food, or --

    25 but this is not possible to prepare food, or to cook

  48. 1 food. It was, as I understand, some kind of place

    2 where they were served the food.

    3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you.

    4 Can we now place the photograph number 70 on

    5 the ELMO, please?

    6 Mr. Junhov, looking at this photograph, in the

    7 upper part to the right you identified the second

    8 person from the right as one of the guards in Kaonik;

    9 is that correct?

    10 A. Yes, that was my opinion.

    11 Q. I have to ask you, are you sure that it is a

    12 guard, or did you think it was a guard?

    13 A. He did not introduce himself, so I do not

    14 know, but there were several persons even inside and

    15 outside that were dressed in almost the same style, and

    16 some of them were armed and some were not armed.

    17 Q. Did the persons you are referring to have any

    18 military insignia on them?

    19 A. Not as far as you can see from this picture.

    20 Normally, they had insignia on the left arm, or on the

    21 pocket on the chest.

    22 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. Junhov, thank you. We can

    23 remove the photograph now from the ELMO.

    24 Mr. Junhov, you said that you spent some time

    25 talking to someone you described as the prison

  49. 1 commander. Do you remember how he was dressed?

    2 A. He was dressed in the same fashion as these

    3 persons.

    4 Q. Do you remember whether he had any military

    5 insignia on his clothes?

    6 A. I do not remember that, but my opinion of the

    7 person was that he was a military person.

    8 Q. On the basis of what did you conclude that,

    9 when you do not recall him having any military

    10 insignia?

    11 A. He had at least some parts of a uniform -- a

    12 camouflage uniform.

    13 Q. Mr. Junhov, but a moment ago you told us that,

    14 in those days, in that area, there were many people

    15 wearing parts of military uniforms -- that is true,

    16 even though they were civilians; is that correct?

    17 A. Yes, but how do you separate civilians from

    18 military persons when they are partly in uniform?

    19 Q. That is what I am trying to ask you. How did

    20 you come to the conclusion that he was a military

    21 person when he had no insignia?

    22 A. That is of course hard to say, but it is an

    23 impression you get when you meet the people and you

    24 talk to him, and his way to behave and so on. There

    25 was no doubt about that he was in charge -- he was

  50. 1 responsible for at least this building, and I had the

    2 opinion that he was responsible for the whole area.

    3 Q. Mr. Junhov, it seems to me that you mentioned

    4 that you spoke to the commander, as you call him, in

    5 his office, which was on the right-hand side of the

    6 building; is that correct?

    7 A. That is correct.

    8 Q. Could you, of course bearing in mind the

    9 former standards you referred to, that is, the Swedish

    10 standards, could you describe to me the standard of

    11 equipment in that office?

    12 A. Yes, it was an ordinary desk with a chair and

    13 some files and a telephone on the table, and that was

    14 all.

    15 Q. How would you describe that office, using as

    16 your yardstick the standard you mentioned before?

    17 A. It was a very, very simple office, I would

    18 say. It was -- perhaps it is more appropriate to call

    19 it a working place for desk work.

    20 Q. Did you notice at the entrance of the

    21 building you went into or at the door of this office

    22 any kind of inscription, any kind of board -- do you

    23 remember that?

    24 A. It was a number above the entrance door,

    25 outside the building, and you saw it in the picture --

  51. 1 it was number 12, if I remember correctly.

    2 Q. That is what can be seen on the photograph,

    3 thank you.

    4 And, just briefly, Mr. Junhov, you mentioned

    5 in your testimony the HOS military units. Would you

    6 tell us whether you know under whose command those

    7 units were, or, rather, those people that you saw with

    8 the HOS insignia?

    9 A. Again, that is of course hard to say, because

    10 we avoided discussions with these people, but I take it

    11 for natural that, since they were military units, they

    12 must have been under the command of the commander of

    13 Central Bosnia, because they acted in his area.

    14 Q. Mr. Junhov, just for a moment let us go back

    15 to your visit to Kaonik and the conversation you had

    16 with the five muhajedeen that you told us about. Did

    17 you notice on those men any signs of injuries, the

    18 effects of blows, or --

    19 A. No, I did not notice that, and I have also

    20 mentioned that they were unshaven, beard, they had full

    21 covering of clothes, so almost the only thing you saw

    22 of them was their eyes and ears, and I saw no sign of

    23 mistreating, or beating, except that they were very

    24 dirty.

    25 Q. Mr. Junhov, did they complain to you that they

  52. 1 were being beaten or mistreated?

    2 A. They were complaining that they had no

    3 medical care; they were complaining of the hygienic --

    4 or what you call it -- they could not keep themselves

    5 clean, because they had not access to a bathroom,

    6 showers and so on.

    7 Q. But did they complain that anyone was

    8 physically abusing them or beating them?

    9 A. Not beating them -- nobody -- none of them

    10 said they were beaten.

    11 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you.

    12 Your Honours, the Defence has no further

    13 questions.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann?

    15 MR. NIEMANN: Could your Honours just excuse

    16 me for a moment, please? Nothing in re-examination,

    17 your Honours.

    18 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Junhov, from your evidence,

    19 you gave me the impression that you are well versed

    20 with the prison conditions in Sweden. May I know what

    21 your profession was before you were appointed a Monitor

    22 by ECMM?

    23 A. I am a retired Colonel from the Swedish air

    24 force.

    25 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

  53. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Junhov, I should like

    2 to ask you a question: if I understood well, you went

    3 to Kaonik twice, and speaking of the distinction

    4 between military and civilian persons, if I understood

    5 well, you said that it was easy to make a distinction

    6 and, also, the distinction between guards and soldiers

    7 in the Kaonik prison. Could you make a distinction

    8 between the guards and the soldiers in the camp?

    9 A. The guards and the soldiers, that is similar

    10 or equal, in my opinion. The guards were dressed as,

    11 -- in my opinion, it was military personnel. They had

    12 uniforms and weapons.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Therefore, you did not see

    14 any external signs which would allow you to make a

    15 distinction between the military and the guards?

    16 A. No.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Therefore, this was a

    18 prison after all. There was no possibility for you to

    19 distinguish between the two?

    20 A. No, I did not notice it. It was not, in my

    21 opinion, a remarkable experience that military

    22 personnel -- it is hard to make a discrimination

    23 between -- people acting as policemen or soldiers.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But was it easy for you to

    25 distinguish between military people and civilians?

  54. 1 A. Sometimes it was, and sometimes not. I can

    2 say that I visited a lot of police stations in the

    3 Central Bosnia, and you went into the police station,

    4 you could meet with a man in a camouflage uniform and

    5 armed as a soldier and there were also people dressed

    6 in other, so to say, strictly police uniforms. I do

    7 not know if the Police Forces were reinforced by

    8 military police. I did not know the organisation

    9 correctly, so --

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much,

    11 Mr. Junhov. You have just completed your testimony here

    12 at the International Criminal Tribunal, and we wish to

    13 thank you for coming and we wish you a happy journey to

    14 your country.

    15 Mr. Niemann, you have something to add?

    16 MR. NIEMANN: May I ask one question arising

    17 out of what your Honour was asking the witness? It may

    18 help clarify the issue.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, with the same

    20 possibility for the Defence to react.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

    22 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN

    23 MR. NIEMANN: In your travels around Bosnia

    24 Herzegovina when you were there as a Monitor and other

    25 than the time when you were in Kaonik, did you see

  55. 1 other soldiers on the Croatian side who were dressed in

    2 a similar fashion to the people that you saw at Kaonik?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you wish

    6 to put a question to the witness?

    7 MR. MIKULICIC: No, thank you, your Honour,

    8 we have no additional questions.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, I think we

    10 have finished our work for this morning. I believe

    11 there are no more witnesses, and we will have two,

    12 I think, tomorrow.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, we are going

    15 to adjourn for today, and we will meet again here

    16 tomorrow. Until tomorrow then.

    17 (12.15pm)

    18 (The hearing adjourned until Friday, 6th March 1998

    19 at 10.00am)