International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

  1. 1 Wednesday, 25th March 1998

    2 (9.07am)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and

    5 gentlemen. Good morning to the technicians and the

    6 interpreters, are you ready?

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning to everyone.

    9 We are going to continue our case, but, before that,

    10 I should like to say something. As we did in previous

    11 weeks, more or less mid way through the week, it would

    12 be in order to make an assessment of our work. One

    13 notes that the Prosecutor has announced 12 witnesses

    14 for this week, and we have only heard three of them.

    15 This situation draws attention to at least

    16 three things: first, the right of the accused to have

    17 an expeditious and fair trial must be ensured

    18 throughout; secondly, the Aleksovski case has been

    19 separated from other trials and, consequently, has its

    20 own life and rhythm; and, thirdly, the road to reach

    21 the Kaonik prison is very often a long and repetitive

    22 one. The Trial Chamber does not wish to bring any

    23 pressure to bear on the parties, but simply to organise

    24 ourselves and to appeal in favour of the rights of the

    25 accused to an expeditious and fair trial.

  2. 1 I think that we could proceed at a slightly

    2 faster pace. Therefore, the Trial Chamber is concerned

    3 by the situation and I think that we should have a

    4 status conference next Friday at 2.30 to think over our

    5 case with a view to completing it as soon as possible,

    6 because, as you know, the Tribunal has other cases that

    7 need to be conducted.

    8 After having said that, we are going to

    9 resume the hearing and, Mr Registrar, can you give us

    10 the case number.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. IT-95-14/1, the

    12 Prosecutor versus Zlatko Aleksovski.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much.

    14 I turn towards the Prosecutor. Can we have the

    15 appearances, please?

    16 MR NIEMANN: My name is Niemann. I appear

    17 with Ms. Sutherland, Mr Meddegoda and Ms. Erasmus for the

    18 Prosecution.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: For the Defence, please?

    20 MR. MIKULICIC: Good morning, your Honours.

    21 My name is Goran Mikulicic. I represent the Defence

    22 together with my colleague, attorney Joka.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Prosecutor, I give you

    24 the floor. I should like to ask both parties whether

    25 you are agreeable with the status conference within the

  3. 1 framework that we have proposed.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. Does your

    3 Honour wish me to address those matters that you

    4 directed to us in terms of the expedition of the

    5 hearing?

    6 I would have thought that the progress of

    7 this Prosecution has been timely and expeditious and

    8 that the evidence has been as finely tailored I think

    9 as it can be in the circumstances. There is a great

    10 deal of matters that rest upon the Prosecution to

    11 prove. The road to Kaonik may be a long one, but it is

    12 also one necessary to establish the status of the

    13 individuals. It is going to be incumbent upon your

    14 Honours eventually to determine whether they were

    15 prisoners of war or whether they were civilians. That

    16 becomes blurred in the context of these proceedings,

    17 because of the nature of the conflict.

    18 You have people who were spontaneously taking

    19 up arms in order to defend their villages, which puts

    20 them into a different category to people who are

    21 regular members of the armed forces, and that is a

    22 matter that requires differentiation and can only be

    23 established by evidence and it is also necessary to

    24 have an understanding of the nature of the conflict,

    25 otherwise the whole issue of human shields and trench

  4. 1 digging becomes meaningless -- so the evidence cannot

    2 be limited to just what happened in the Kaonik camp.

    3 If a number of charges in the indictment

    4 relates to trench digging and human shields, the

    5 evidence cannot stop just because someone is told to go

    6 out and dig a trench. That is not the end of the

    7 matter. Digging a trench may or may not contravene the

    8 Geneva Conventions. What contravenes the Geneva

    9 Conventions is if they are obliged to dig a trench in

    10 the face of danger, and again that is another matter

    11 that has to be established by evidence. It is not a

    12 straightforward matter; it is a matter of assessment.

    13 One has to hear the atmosphere in which these people

    14 worked to get an appreciation of whether or not that is

    15 what was happening.

    16 There are cases where these people were

    17 performing work which the Prosecution would not allege

    18 at all was in contravention of the Conventions, such as

    19 market gardening and so forth around the camp. So, it

    20 is because of these issues that that burden is upon the

    21 Prosecution to prove -- that may appear to be tedious

    22 but nevertheless are necessary.

    23 Further, your Honours, the right to an

    24 expeditious trial cannot possibly in our respectful

    25 submission be interpreted in such a way as to deprive

  5. 1 the Prosecution of presenting its case. The accused

    2 certainly is entitled to an expeditious trial, and we

    3 do all we can to comply with that requirement, but the

    4 Prosecution must have the right to present its case,

    5 and that is what we are doing and we are endeavouring

    6 to do it as expeditiously as possible.

    7 With that, your Honour, might the witness be

    8 brought in?

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, perhaps we

    10 should also hear the opinion of the Defence on this

    11 matter, and specifically regarding the status

    12 conference, Mr. Mikulicic. I am sorry, Mr. Niemann.

    13 MR. MIKULICIC: At this point in time, the

    14 Defence has no objection regarding the proposal of the

    15 Trial Chamber for a status conference, which it finds

    16 to be absolutely acceptable. As regards the way in

    17 which the Prosecution is conducting its case, the

    18 Defence would not like to reproach anything at this

    19 point in time in view of the fact that the Defence

    20 requires reciprocity when its case comes, and the

    21 possibility to present its evidence, at least in the

    22 same way as the Prosecution has done.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

    24 The equitable principle will certainly be guaranteed.

    25 Mr. Niemann, we can resume with the hearing

  6. 1 now.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases.

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Sir. Can

    5 you hear me?

    6 A. Yes, good morning.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yesterday, you took a

    8 solemn oath. Are you aware of that today, that you are

    9 bound by it today as well?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, you are

    12 going to continue to answer questions which Mr. Niemann

    13 is going to put to you.

    14 WITNESS M (continued)

    15 Examined by MR. NIEMANN (continued)

    16 Q. Witness M, yesterday in the course of your

    17 evidence you spoke of a first meeting you had with a

    18 representative of the Red Cross. I think at that time

    19 you said that, at least during part of the time that

    20 this representative was there, Mr. Aleksovski was

    21 present; do you remember that?

    22 A. Yes. He was present when they came and, when

    23 we came out of the cell to sit around the table where

    24 we had our meals, and when the registration of the

    25 prisoners began, then she would ask Mr. Aleksovski to go

  7. 1 out so she could talk to us without his presence.

    2 Q. During the time when Mr. Aleksovski was

    3 present with the representative of the Red Cross, did

    4 you hear any conversation transpiring between them --

    5 between Mr. Aleksovski and the Red Cross representative

    6 about matters pertaining to the camp?

    7 A. I did not hear anything in particular,

    8 because, if they did have a conversation, then they

    9 would do so to the side -- slightly away from those

    10 present. Until they came the second time, when I know

    11 that Ms Beatrice told Aleksovski that, since we had

    12 been registered by the Red Cross, that we must not be

    13 taken to do labour where we were not safe, and

    14 especially not to the front-lines, and to do forced

    15 labour such as we had been doing.

    16 Q. And, when she had told him this, were you

    17 taken out again, or did the requirements for you to go

    18 to the front-line then cease?

    19 A. After that, after I heard her say this to

    20 him, that we must not be taken there, because we had

    21 been registered by the Red Cross, and that whatever

    22 happened to us, Mr. Aleksovski would be responsible.

    23 After that, that night, we went to a neighbouring

    24 village, Strane -- about midnight we went to dig

    25 trenches.

  8. 1 Q. Can you remember that particular incident

    2 when you went to Strane, what happened that night?

    3 A. Yes. They came about midnight -- some of

    4 their soldiers came -- gentlemen from the camp, the

    5 guards, Marko Krilic was there, and another guard, and

    6 then they took us out of the cells, about 20 of us, and

    7 we were taken up to Strane to dig trenches.

    8 Q. Did there come an occasion when you had a

    9 second meeting with the representative of the

    10 International Red Cross at the camp?

    11 A. What do you mean?

    12 Q. Did you meet again with someone? Did the

    13 lady from the Red Cross come to the camp another time

    14 after the first occasion?

    15 A. Yes, after the first time, I think she came

    16 another three times. The first time I complained

    17 that I needed to see a doctor, because I had these

    18 visible scars on my face from the mistreatment I had

    19 been exposed to in the camp, and I asked to see a

    20 doctor, because I was feeling pain in my back, in my

    21 head and all over my body. She told me that she would

    22 pass this on to the prison director and that I would be

    23 taken there, but nothing happened.

    24 A second time when I complained again, after

    25 this second time, Mr. Aleksovski, in the evening, took

  9. 1 me to the local clinic in Busovaca.

    2 Q. And what happened -- can you tell us this

    3 incident? Did he come into your cell and say anything

    4 to you? How was it that he took you there?

    5 A. I had already lost hope that I would be taken

    6 to a doctor, so it was well into the night when

    7 Mr. Aleksovski came into my cell, and told me to follow

    8 him. I went out with him and we went outside the

    9 building where the cells were. There were another two

    10 prisoners waiting for him. He put us in his own car

    11 that he used to drive, and he drove us to the local

    12 clinic in Busovaca. When we got there, he told us to

    13 wait in the corridor until he went to the doctor's

    14 surgery to see something. After that, he came out, a

    15 couple of minutes later, and told us to go in one by

    16 one.

    17 As we entered, the other two went before me

    18 -- I was the third -- and, when my turn came, they

    19 asked me my name, where I was from, and why I had

    20 come. I told them my name, but I changed my surname,

    21 because I assumed that my surname could affect my

    22 safety, but Aleksovski came up to her and told me to

    23 tell her my name and where I came from, and, when the

    24 lady doctor asked me where I had pains and what they

    25 were due to, I told her that they were pains from the

  10. 1 digging, but Aleksovski smiled and said, "Tell the

    2 truth. Tell her that there was a dance down there."

    3 Then I told her that I had been beaten and that I had

    4 pains as a result and the lady who examined me, she had

    5 lifted my T-shirt, but she put it back down, saying,

    6 "Go away, I will not treat you here. If you get out

    7 alive, let them in Zenica treat you."

    8 Mr. Aleksovski was present throughout this

    9 time and he just laughed at it all. She gave me three

    10 pills. I did not know what they were. We went out, we

    11 got into the car again. Mr. Aleksovski addressed all

    12 three of us then and said, "You see, I took you to the

    13 doctor, so do not complain again that I did not take

    14 you to see a doctor and that you were not given any

    15 medical treatment," though, in my particular case,

    16 I was not given any treatment.

    17 Q. Did you have any expectation after that as to

    18 whether or not you would be required to go trench

    19 digging again?

    20 A. I did not expect to be taken again, because

    21 I really was in a terrible condition. I could not hold

    22 any tools, I could not bend down properly like I used

    23 to be able to, and so I had expected them to spare me

    24 at least until my exchange, so I was spared for a day

    25 or two, until they needed me again, so again they came

  11. 1 for me and I was again taken to dig to Polom, a nearby

    2 hill near Busovaca.

    3 Q. At any stage did you think about or do

    4 anything in order to render yourself unable to go

    5 trench digging while you were in the camp?

    6 A. Yes, at the beginning, while we were

    7 mistreated on a daily basis and constantly and very

    8 badly, so I told my colleague who was with me in my

    9 cell that he should break my arm so that at least they

    10 would not force me to dig and I would not be mistreated

    11 on the front-line. So, I thought to myself, if I had to

    12 be mistreated in the camp, at least I would not be

    13 mistreated on the front-line, because I was constantly

    14 mistreated, both in the camp and on the front-line --

    15 not just me but everyone else -- all the other

    16 prisoners who were there, too.

    17 Q. During the time you were in the camp, did you

    18 know or come to know a person called Omer, from Teslic?

    19 A. Yes, I knew Omer in person. I was with him

    20 in cell number 6 for about 15 days, I think. He came

    21 later from somewhere -- he was brought in to cell

    22 number 6. After that, we were together in cell number

    23 12, and Omer was killed at Polom. I do not know which

    24 side killed him -- during forced labour he was killed

    25 there.

  12. 1 Q. When you say "forced labour", what was he

    2 doing, do you know?

    3 A. None of us wanted to go to the front-line

    4 where we were exposed to fire, and nobody wanted to dig

    5 trenches for their army. We were forced to do that --

    6 we had to do it.

    7 Q. And did you understand that Omer was involved

    8 in trench digging at the time when he was killed?

    9 A. Yes, he went to dig trenches. He went there

    10 repeatedly -- I went with him for three days. After

    11 that, I was taken to Kula, and he was taken again --

    12 his group was taken to Polom and when we got back to

    13 the camp, I asked my colleague, with whom I was from

    14 the first day, I asked where Omer was and he said that

    15 Omer had got killed, and that they had brought him,

    16 after being killed, to Busovaca -- they had taken him

    17 to Busovaca.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: I would ask you at this stage,

    19 if you would, to look at a photograph that I now show

    20 you. If your Honours please, we have a copy, a black

    21 and white copy, of this photograph. Might the original

    22 colour one be the next exhibit in order?

    23 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit 86.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: Might a copy be given out?

    25 Could it be put on the ELMO?

  13. 1 Just looking at that photograph, do you

    2 recognise it, Witness M? (Handed).

    3 A. Yes, this is the interior of the building

    4 where the cells were, where I was put up for a while.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Could that be placed on the

    6 overhead projector?

    7 Witness M, I would ask you to put it on the

    8 screen so we can all see it.

    9 When you say that that was the one of the

    10 cells that you went to, can you be more precise? When

    11 did you go there? Were they the first cells that you

    12 went to, or did you go somewhere else first, or can you

    13 be more specific about that, explaining what these

    14 cells are?

    15 A. Yes. This is the interior of the building

    16 where the cells were. This, starting from this side,

    17 this is cell number 2, 3, 4 (indicating). Over on the

    18 other side is 5, and you cannot see that in the

    19 picture, there was the cell where I was. I spent about

    20 one month in that cell number 6. This was the toilet

    21 for the prisoners, and this was a toilet and a bathroom

    22 for the staff -- for the guards and other personnel who

    23 were working at the camp and this man here (indicating)

    24 is also familiar to me, and I say that this is Marko

    25 Krilic, that he is the deputy commander of the camp.

  14. 1 I can even recognise him from the back,

    2 because I have a very vivid memory of him, and so

    3 I recognise him, that it is exactly him.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honours.

    5 You mentioned a moment ago that this was a

    6 part of the camp or the cells in which you were for

    7 part of the time. Were you in any other part of the

    8 camp at any other time during the course of your stay

    9 there?

    10 A. Yes, I was transferred to another hangar,

    11 which was up from the hangar where I was originally,

    12 and this happened some time in the period between 15

    13 and 20 May 1993, when I was called out among the

    14 prisoners and we were in a group of about 50 or 60

    15 persons -- we were called out. We came out in front of

    16 the building where the cells were, and we sort of

    17 waited there -- some kind of an exchange.

    18 Mr. Aleksovski was present there as well as Mr. Zarko --

    19 he supposedly was engaged in this exchange, and then

    20 there was some kind of roll call -- they were selecting

    21 certain men.

    22 In my view, this selection was made according

    23 to the age groups and when they finished this process,

    24 the older men and the men who were unable to work were

    25 put to one side and I was with the other group and we

  15. 1 were ordered to go to this other building, to this

    2 other hangar, which was up from the building where the

    3 cells were, and, when I came to the hangar, I found

    4 about 50 to 60 people there. They were in pretty bad

    5 shape.

    6 They were in 10 times worse condition than

    7 the men who were in the prison, because at least in the

    8 prison they had these pallets on which one could lie

    9 down and get some rest, whereas in this hangar there

    10 were some mini pallets where very few people could

    11 stay, and the rest were on the floor, which was a

    12 concrete floor, or some -- there was less food. It was

    13 sort of food fit for dogs.

    14 I spent seven days there and I had no

    15 container to eat from, so I had to share a container

    16 with another one or two persons. Nobody gave me

    17 anything to eat from -- some kind of mess tin or

    18 anything that I could use for food.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Just looking at Exhibit 85 for

    20 me, if you would, which is an exhibit you have looked

    21 at before -- perhaps that could be put on the overhead

    22 projector -- I think he has seen that.

    23 Picking up one of those pens -- the marker

    24 pens that are there, are you able to mark with the

    25 letter "C" this second hangar that you were taken to on

  16. 1 this occasion that the exchange took place?

    2 A. (Witness marked photograph).

    3 Q. Was it in front of the hangar marked "B" on

    4 that map that the people were first assembled for the

    5 point of exchange, or was it in front of hangar C, can

    6 you remember?

    7 A. Yes, part of the people were between hangars

    8 marked with "B" and "C". People were sort of lined up

    9 and called out. That is where the selection was made.

    10 In my view, those who were unable to work, those who

    11 were sick, who were older, that is when they were

    12 separated out and they were taken to the village of

    13 Skradno -- they were not exchanged, they were taken to

    14 the village of Skradno -- and myself and another group

    15 of men who were taken from this line-up, we were taken

    16 back to the building marked with "C" and that is where

    17 I spent a week, in this building "C".

    18 Q. When you were taken out on this day that this

    19 exchange occurred, it was about middle May I think you

    20 said that it happened?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Had you either hoped or expected that you

    23 were going to be exchanged yourself on that day?

    24 A. When I was called out, I had expected to be

    25 exchanged and I sort of rejoiced because I said,

  17. 1 "Finally the day has arrived when I will be

    2 exchanged." However, all that happened was I was

    3 transferred from building B to building C.

    4 Q. Do you know why you were transferred from

    5 building B to building C -- do you know why that

    6 happened?

    7 A. Yes, there was a group of HVO soldiers there,

    8 and two or three military soldiers and one of those

    9 military policemen was a school friend of mine -- his

    10 name is Marko Kulic and he was present there, and they

    11 were sort of shouting from that position and the

    12 director knew that I was from this village, so he said,

    13 "Oh, no way is he going to go on that day to be

    14 exchanged, because he is from this village" and this

    15 was the reason why I was not exchanged at that time.

    16 Q. I think it is obvious, but just to make sure

    17 it is clear for the record, by "director" you mean the

    18 accused, Mr. Aleksovski?

    19 A. Yes, yes. Aleksovski was present almost

    20 throughout this time until I was taken to the building

    21 C, and I think he even stayed behind after those people

    22 were taken away and I was taken to building C -- he

    23 remained with these people. He was there the whole

    24 time, from the moment when I came in front of the

    25 building until I was taken to building C, Mr. Aleksovski

  18. 1 was present there.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: I would like you to look at

    3 another exhibit, Exhibit 70, and I will ask you if you

    4 recognise this exhibit. Again, I would like it placed

    5 on the overhead projector. (Handed).

    6 Witness M, that is a photograph, but I am

    7 wondering, looking at it, whether it is a photograph

    8 that appears to be familiar to you?

    9 A. Yes, it is familiar to me. This is the

    10 building C where I stayed for seven days. I recognise

    11 certain people there, also -- the guard and, again,

    12 Mr. Krilic.

    13 Q. Can you point to the guard that you recognise

    14 as Mr. Krilic -- can you point to him on the screen?

    15 A. This (indicating), this is Mr. Krilic.

    16 Q. That is the gentleman with the back to the

    17 photograph, appearing to walk into the door with the

    18 number 12 above. Do you recognise anyone else there?

    19 A. Yes -- yes, these are some of the prisoners

    20 who were staying in this building. This is the

    21 interpreter, who was with the International Red Cross.

    22 This is one of the guards, named Anto, from Busovaca.

    23 Q. And the witness is pointing to the person

    24 standing on the platform second from the right of the

    25 photograph looking at the photograph?

  19. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Do you see the lady that was from the Red

    3 Cross that you have spoken of, who was there with

    4 Mr. Aleksovski on the occasions that you mentioned in

    5 your evidence -- do you see that lady in the photograph

    6 at all?

    7 A. No, this is not Ms Beatrice.

    8 Q. I am sorry, I apologise. Is there anything

    9 else about the photograph that you recognise? Do you

    10 recognise anyone there who was with you at any stage

    11 when you were taken trench digging?

    12 A. Yes, this young man with a shopping bag and

    13 some kind of paper in his hand (indicating) in jeans

    14 and T-shirt -- short-sleeve T-shirt who is stepping out

    15 of the building was a young man who dug with me one

    16 night -- the night when they -- when they took us to

    17 Strane after the visit of the International Red Cross,

    18 and this gentleman here, who is walking towards the

    19 door (indicating) in this track-suit was also an HVO

    20 soldier, and he slept in one of the cells, which was at

    21 the entrance and above that cell there was a cross, so

    22 he went to the front-line from there, and would come

    23 back and slept there.

    24 I do not know whether he was in prison there,

    25 or whether he was on some other duty, but he brought me

  20. 1 food several times into the cell, while I was staying

    2 in building B. And also on the second day of my

    3 staying in prison, he brought me the food that was

    4 later thrown at me, and down here (indicating) are the

    5 men from Zepce. This man is from Zepce, and he was

    6 helping me -- he had a handkerchief or something and he

    7 was dipping it in water and he was putting like a cold

    8 compress or something, he was trying to help me to cool

    9 off my bruises.

    10 This is a man from Vitez (indicating), and

    11 then I recognise some of the faces, but I do not know

    12 where they are from. They were from different areas.

    13 I know them by face, but I do not know exactly from

    14 which area each individual was.

    15 Q. I think that is good, thank you.

    16 When you were in the hangar that you have

    17 marked C, did you become ill at any stage?

    18 A. Yes, when I came to the hangar which I marked

    19 with the letter "C", I suffered a crisis of sorts -- it

    20 just came over me and I was very sick. I had terrible

    21 pains in the back area, and the gentleman that I showed

    22 you, who was from Zepce, he was tending to me. He was

    23 dipping his handkerchief in water that was there in the

    24 building -- he was putting it on my back to help me.

    25 This helped a little and the other prisoners also

  21. 1 cheered me up so that I would not give up -- I was in a

    2 terrible shape, and regardless of my health condition

    3 I was forced to go and dig regardless of this condition

    4 -- I had to go to dig and work every day, so that is

    5 how it went.

    6 Q. And, when you were in the camp, do you

    7 remember seeing some prisoners there that were of Arab

    8 origin?

    9 A. Yes, when I got there, maybe two or three

    10 days later -- in fact, the first couple of days I heard

    11 some kind of moans coming from the cells 2, 3, 4 and 5,

    12 but I did not know what was going on, until one day

    13 I came out to go to the toilet and I could see an Arab,

    14 who also had come out to go to the toilet, so this is

    15 how I found out that they were there, and then, once,

    16 while we were digging in the village of Strane -- this

    17 is the first time we went there -- I met a man who went

    18 with them, who apparently was their driver. I met this

    19 man and he said that there were about 10 or 11 Arabs,

    20 and that two Bosnians were also with them.

    21 So, this is how I knew that there were some

    22 Arabs there, and they had special treatment. They were

    23 treated differently than we were. They called them

    24 mudjehadeen and they were saying that they were

    25 different from us somehow, so they beat them more

  22. 1 severely than they did us, and, as far as I know, the

    2 UN also came to visit them, so they were exchanged in

    3 mid May. That is when the exchange of these Arabs took

    4 place, and they left the camp and, as far as I know,

    5 they spent about three and a half months in there.

    6 Q. Do you remember at any stage when you were in

    7 the cell block which you marked with the letter "A"

    8 there being a cell there that had a padlock on it?

    9 A. I am sorry, I did not understand the

    10 question.

    11 Q. When you were in cell block that you

    12 marked "A" -- that is the first cell block that you

    13 went into with the individual cells in it -- do you

    14 remember one of those cells having a lock on the door?

    15 A. Yes, yes. That was cell number 4. It was

    16 locked in this period when the first Arabs were

    17 exchanged and then another Arab from Syria was brought

    18 in and his cell was always padlocked and it would be

    19 unlocked only when the food was brought to him and when

    20 he was taken out to go to the toilet. For a while

    21 I was taking food to this cell, and I saw that the man

    22 who was kept there was in a horrible condition, that he

    23 had been beaten and mistreated, and I thought it was

    24 terrible -- from early May up until my exchange, which

    25 was on 19 June 1993, he was beaten up every day, he was

  23. 1 abused, and different men took turns in doing these

    2 things to him.

    3 I recall a detail; when the International Red

    4 Cross came to visit us, they went from cell to cell to

    5 see who was there. When they came to cell number 4,

    6 Mr. Aleksovski was with this gentleman from the Red

    7 Cross and we were sitting around the table, where we

    8 were taking meals. When the gentleman from the Red

    9 Cross asked why this cell was locked, he said that this

    10 was some kind of a food storage room and that there was

    11 no need for them to enter there -- there was no need

    12 for them to see it, so they did not have the key, they

    13 could not open it, so they passed that cell and came

    14 over to us and talked to us; in other words, they did

    15 not want to report him to the International Red Cross.

    16 I do not know whether they reported him

    17 later, but, while I was there, they were not reporting

    18 him there, and he stayed behind me, after I was

    19 exchanged. I do not know whether this person survived,

    20 whether he came out later, after me.

    21 Q. When Mr. Aleksovski said that it was a food

    22 store; did he say whether or not there was anyone in

    23 there, or did he just say that, that it was just a food

    24 store?

    25 A. He said that it was a food storage room and

  24. 1 that there was no need for them to open it up, that

    2 there was no need to look into that room, that there

    3 was no-one there, that there was no need for them to go

    4 in.

    5 Q. Apart from being taken to dig trenches, were

    6 you required to do any other kind of work around the

    7 camp during the time that you were interned there?

    8 A. Yes, if we did not go to dig trenches, we

    9 would go to do some work privately for the guards -- we

    10 did work in their gardens, cut their grass, so those

    11 were sort of like household work. It was something

    12 that they did not do that we did for them.

    13 Q. And where did you do this work? Was it in

    14 the camp or inside the camp and outside the camp?

    15 A. Outside the camp. We went to Mr. Stipo

    16 Andrijasevic to plant potatoes; Mr. Miro, who was also a

    17 guard in the camp, we went to cut grass for him;

    18 Mr. Anto Cakic, we also went to cut grass; to one of

    19 their soldiers we went to plant potatoes and onions and

    20 within the compound of the camp we also planted onions

    21 and some potatoes.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Might the witness be shown

    23 Exhibit 46, please? (Handed).

    24 Witness M, would you look at the photograph

    25 you are now shown and can you tell me whether you

  25. 1 recognise that photograph?

    2 A. This is a building within the compound of the

    3 Kaonik centre, which was a former JNA barracks

    4 (indicating). This was the building where their army

    5 was housed, some kind of interventions platoon that was

    6 housed up here on the first floor (indicating). This

    7 is the entrance to the building (indicating). To the

    8 left is a door leading to their kitchen, where food was

    9 prepared for them (indicating) and also here

    10 (indicating) there are toilets and bathrooms. I went

    11 there a couple of times to clean their kitchen, and to

    12 clean their toilets and bathrooms, and I also went

    13 upstairs under armed escort of their soldiers to make

    14 their beds where they used to sleep and rest.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: And would you mark -- looking

    16 again at Exhibit P85, please, which is the other

    17 exhibit that we had there a moment ago -- I think it

    18 may have gone back -- P85 (Handed). Can you point out

    19 on P85 where this particular building is that you have

    20 just pointed to in Exhibit 46 -- where is it located?

    21 Again, with a marker would you put the letter "D" on

    22 it, please? Can you point to it and then put a "D"

    23 where this building is located?

    24 A. Here it is, this is this building

    25 (indicating). It is here. This is the building where

  26. 1 their army was accommodated (indicating) -- their

    2 kitchen (indicating), that was where their army stayed

    3 (indicating) and we went there to clean up, and do some

    4 other jobs that were not for animals. Everything that

    5 was filthy, while they were there and before and after

    6 they left, we had to clean up. The toilets were in a

    7 terrible condition, and so was their kitchen. We had

    8 to scrub it all clean, make it shine.

    9 Q. Would you put a "C" there with a pen for me

    10 where that place is -- sorry, "D", I do apologise?

    11 A. (Witness marked photograph).

    12 Q. Apart from those chores that you had to

    13 perform that you have already described, was there ever

    14 an occasion when you were required to dig graves?

    15 A. Yes, I went once to dig graves.

    16 Q. Where did you do that -- sorry?

    17 A. That was in the environs of Busovaca in the

    18 village of Ravan. They came to fetch us about

    19 midnight, they boarded us into a van, 8 of us, and we

    20 were driven there to dig two graves, and we dug them

    21 during the night, not in day time, but during the

    22 night.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: Just looking at the next

    24 photograph I show you -- I have a copy for your Honours

    25 and for Mr. Mikulicic -- (Handed). Perhaps that might

  27. 1 be given the next number in order?

    2 THE REGISTRAR: The number is 87.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: Witness M, during the time

    4 that you were kept at Kaonik, were you ever required to

    5 dig trenches or dig installations for the HVO in the

    6 Kaonik area itself?

    7 A. Yes, one day I dug in the Kaonik area at this

    8 road -- this is the school building that I went to, the

    9 school I went to (indicating) and there is a path

    10 (indicating) leading to the school and we dug somewhere

    11 here (indicating) some kind of a dugout or trench for

    12 the HVO. In my opinion, it was for some kind of

    13 Defence -- probably to defend the bridge and this road,

    14 because, one could see well from that spot the bridge

    15 used to cross the Lasva Valley and go on to Busovaca.

    16 Q. I think it might be easier if we turn it

    17 around that way, it is a bit easier to follow. Looking

    18 at this particular photograph, I should have asked you

    19 -- it is obviously a photograph of the area that you

    20 recognise -- can you point to where the Kaonik camp is

    21 itself?

    22 A. Yes, here it is (indicating). This is the

    23 compound of the camp. This is building B (indicating),

    24 the one where the cells were; this is the building

    25 where there were no cells (indicating) -- it was a

  28. 1 hangar in which I spent seven days, and down here

    2 (indicating) is the building that I just marked with

    3 the letter "D", and this is the road (indicating)

    4 leading from building D to building B and C and these

    5 are some other buildings (indicating), in some of which

    6 of the material was housed.

    7 Q. Can you point again, just so we understand

    8 it, in relation to the camp, where it was that you dug

    9 this particular dugout -- can you point to that?

    10 A. Here (indicating) just here.

    11 Q. Would you put with the pen a circle, please,

    12 at that spot?

    13 A. (Witness marked photograph).

    14 Q. Do you have any idea where the front-lines of

    15 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were in relation to that

    16 spot that you have marked -- do you have any idea of

    17 that? You may not know, but if you do know?

    18 A. They were far from this. I do not see much

    19 purpose in this dugout. In my personal opinion, they

    20 wanted to protect this bridge, at least that is what we

    21 gathered from the conversation from the soldiers who

    22 were present and who forced us to dig. The HVO lines

    23 were far from this in the villages of Strane, Podjele,

    24 Loncari, Jelinak and further on, so there was

    25 absolutely no front-line there or anything, so I do not

  29. 1 see what the purpose of that dugout was.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your

    3 Honours.

    4 I would ask you to look at a map that I am

    5 going to show you, and on that map, I would like you,

    6 if you would, to look at it closely, and, if you can,

    7 to mark on it the places that you were taken for trench

    8 digging during the period of time that you were in the

    9 camp at Kaonik. (Handed).

    10 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 88.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: If it is easier for you, you

    12 can mark it first like that, because it is easier for

    13 you to see, and then you can explain it to us on the

    14 screen. So mark it first, if that is easier for you,

    15 the places where you went trench digging.

    16 A. Very well. (Witness marked map).

    17 Q. Perhaps you could put that on the screen for

    18 us now and point to those places and tell us the names

    19 of them as you go through them.

    20 A. Let me start from the first time that I went

    21 digging. This is the village of Strane (indicating).

    22 This is close to Strane and it is called Komar. Close

    23 to Komar in the direction of Loncari and Putis is

    24 Bakije. Then I went digging in Loncari. I spent some

    25 time here at Kula digging, I also dug at Solakovici but

  30. 1 not actually in Solakovici, but away from Solakovici.

    2 There is no name here, so that is why I have indicated

    3 it with an arrow -- not in Solakovici itself, but close

    4 to it, because Solakovici was under the control of the

    5 BiH army. I also dug in Carica and at Polom. I dug at

    6 another place, but I cannot remember what it was

    7 called.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that.

    9 Do you remember how long you were in the camp

    10 at Kaonik, for what period of time?

    11 A. In the period from 19 April until 19 June

    12 1993.

    13 Q. Do you remember now approximately, of that

    14 time, how much you were taken out to dig trenches?

    15 A. Out of the time I spent at Kaonik, I did not

    16 go digging or doing some other forced labour -- perhaps

    17 for seven days -- perhaps there were seven days

    18 I stayed, and, while I stayed behind, I stayed behind

    19 either because I was too beaten up, and because they

    20 wanted to beat me up, or there was not any work to do.

    21 Otherwise, throughout the period I spent at the Kaonik

    22 camp, I was taken to dig trenches and do other forced

    23 labour that I was ordered to do.

    24 Let me also mention a detail -- I counted

    25 once I had on my two palms 56 blisters and when

  31. 1 I complained, "I cannot really hold any tools in my

    2 hand", I would be given some bandages or some rags to

    3 wind them around my palms so as to be able to go

    4 digging again.

    5 Q. During the time that you were in the camp,

    6 did you have opportunities to have showers or baths or

    7 wash your body?

    8 A. Not once, from the moment I was captured on

    9 16 April until I left on 19 June 1993 -- not once did

    10 I have a bath. They cut my hair once -- I do not know

    11 why -- at Kaonik, probably because of lice or some

    12 other such reason, because we had no hygiene. We did

    13 not even wash or wash our hands, only when we went to

    14 the toilet, if you had a chance and if the guard would

    15 let you wash your hands and maybe your face and that

    16 was all.

    17 Q. And what about clothing, were you given fresh

    18 changes of clothes at any time when you were in the

    19 camp, and, if so, how often?

    20 A. What clothing I had on me, that was what

    21 I took away with me. The vest I wore throughout that

    22 time rotted -- it fell apart -- it was rotten, so

    23 I threw it away while I was still in the camp. I had

    24 some boots that I was given by the guards, because they

    25 took my boots -- I was given a pair that were too big

  32. 1 for me, and they gave me some kind of trousers, but

    2 they took mine -- my military trousers -- and they gave

    3 me some kind of civilian trousers and I spent my entire

    4 time in the camp wearing this, and that is in those

    5 same clothes I left. I never had any change of

    6 clothing.

    7 Q. At one stage during the course of your

    8 evidence you mentioned that you cleaned up the premises

    9 of the HVO intervention squad. What do you understand

    10 by that -- what does that mean, do you know,

    11 "intervention squad" or platoon?

    12 A. It means a unit was ready to intervene in a

    13 conflict that may occur, so there would be rapid

    14 deployment, like a special unit.

    15 Q. On the day of your exchange, the day that you

    16 were exchanged -- I think you said 19 June 1993 -- did

    17 you have a conversation with Mr. Aleksovski on that day?

    18 A. Not I -- I did not talk to him, but, on the

    19 day of exchange, when, thank God that it happened, when

    20 officials of the Red Cross came to the building,

    21 building B, they came and they called out the names of

    22 those who were to be exchanged. Then there seemed to

    23 be a hitch over one of the soldiers that Mr. Aleksovski

    24 did not want to release, so Mr. Aleksovski and

    25 Ms Beatrice had a conversation. Ms Beatrice insisted

  33. 1 that this man be released, but Aleksovski had his

    2 reasons why he did not want to let him go -- Hamdo.

    3 Mr. Aleksovski said, "Let us go over here, let

    4 us not talk in front of the others, in front of the

    5 other prisoners, but let us go to my office to discuss

    6 it." 10 or 15 minutes later they came back, and this

    7 prisoner was released, the one Mr. Aleksovski did not

    8 want to have released, so he was released, too, and

    9 then they saw that this man could not walk at all -- he

    10 had been beaten up so badly that last morning in the

    11 camp, so he came out slowly and we helped him to walk

    12 outside the building in front of building B, and then

    13 we headed towards building D where the Red Cross buses

    14 were waiting, and there was a commission of the HVO and

    15 the BiH army.

    16 On the way from building B to building D

    17 that I marked, Mr. Aleksovski addressed me and my

    18 colleague and said, "You will be rewarded if you come

    19 back here. You will not get out alive again," but

    20 thank God this wish of the gentleman did not come true.

    21 Q. The person that you have referred to

    22 variously as "the director" and "the commander" and

    23 "Mr. Aleksovski", do you believe that you would be able

    24 to recognise that person again if you saw him?

    25 A. Yes.

  34. 1 Q. Would you please look around the courtroom

    2 and if you see that person, would you point to him with

    3 your hand, please?

    4 A. There he is (indicating), that man who was

    5 the Mr. Director in the camp throughout the time.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Registrar, we must

    7 record that the witness has pointed in the direction of

    8 Mr. Aleksovski.

    9 Mr. Niemann, do you need much more time to

    10 finish with your examination-in-chief, or shall we have

    11 a break?

    12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I think I am

    13 finished, but it would be convenient to me if we had

    14 our break and I had an opportunity to review -- I think

    15 I have completed all the questions I wish to ask, but a

    16 break would be convenient for me, your Honour.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, we are going

    18 to have a 20-minute break.

    19 (10.25am)

    20 (A short break)

    21 (10.55am)

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann?

    23 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions,

    24 your Honour.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Niemann.

  35. 1 Mr. Mikulicic, I assume that you have questions for the

    2 witness?

    3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, your Honours

    4 Cross-examined by MR. MIKULICIC

    5 Q. I am Goran Mikulicic, I represent the accused

    6 in this matter, and I am going to ask you some

    7 questions. Please answer them to the best of your

    8 recollection.

    9 Mr. M, what schools did you finish?

    10 A. Secondary school -- trades school, I am a

    11 salesman.

    12 Q. Do you speak any foreign languages?

    13 A. Not fluently, but I speak a little bit of

    14 English.

    15 Q. When you say "a little bit", what do you

    16 mean?

    17 A. What little I speak, I can comprehend what

    18 I am told, but I am not very good with the language so

    19 that I could express myself what I am asked.

    20 Q. Mr. M, during the events that you described,

    21 were you a member of any political Party?

    22 A. Yes, I was a member of a political Party of

    23 the Democratic -- Party of Democratic Action in 1991,

    24 when the elections took place. However, I did not

    25 engage in political activities very actively.

  36. 1 Q. Mr. M, are you a religious person?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Do you regularly observe your religious

    4 rites?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Witness M, during your testimony, on several

    7 occasions you said that you did not give your full name

    8 -- your real name, that you concealed your identity at

    9 the doctor's in Kaonik, et cetera. Why did you do

    10 this?

    11 A. Because whenever I would mention my last

    12 name, I would be mistreated -- I would be beaten and

    13 things like that. This happened on several occasions

    14 while I was in the camp.

    15 Q. Forgive my interrupting you, but why was

    16 that, can you explain this, can you clarify it?

    17 A. No, I cannot, but people who beat me could.

    18 Q. But people who beat you are not here, so I am

    19 asking you. Is your name identical with the name of a

    20 village?

    21 A. Yes, it was a hamlet.

    22 Q. Did something happen in this village which

    23 was connected to why you were treated in a way at the

    24 mention of your name?

    25 A. I do not know what could have happened. What

  37. 1 I know is the HVO forces attacked our village. I know

    2 that they did not manage to take the village, and

    3 I assumed that that was why I was beaten, because of my

    4 last name.

    5 Q. Mr. M, you said that you were a believer, that

    6 you observe your religious rite on a regular basis.

    7 Did you have an opportunity to do that during your

    8 imprisonment?

    9 A. I did this the way I could under the

    10 conditions that were available then.

    11 Q. Did anybody prevent you in doing some?

    12 A. Nobody prevented me, but I hid what I did.

    13 Q. Is it true that at Bajram, which is your

    14 religious holiday, a hodza came?

    15 A. No, he did not come.

    16 Q. Did you ever see a hodza, a religious priest

    17 in the camp while you were there?

    18 A. While I was there, I did not see him, and

    19 I know hodza from Busovaca from very well.

    20 Q. Mr. M, how were the guards dressed?

    21 A. They were camouflage uniforms.

    22 Q. Did they have any kind of insignia?

    23 A. Yes, they had HVO insignia.

    24 Q. All of them or some of them?

    25 A. Some of them -- for the most part they had

  38. 1 them on their jackets. When they took off their

    2 jackets they did not have any insignia on their shirts.

    3 Q. Do you recall on the uniform worn by the

    4 director, was there any -- were there any insignia

    5 there?

    6 A. Yes, the HVO insignia.

    7 Q. Are you sure of it?

    8 A. I am sure of it.

    9 Q. Did you notice anything else on the uniform

    10 -- was there any rank?

    11 A. No, I did not see any insignia and I am not

    12 familiar with the HVO ranks insignia, either, so I did

    13 not see any such thing.

    14 Q. Mr. M, during your testimony you said that you

    15 were together with your colleague and we will not

    16 mention his name, but I think that we all know who it

    17 is. You said that you were placed in the same cell

    18 together?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And in the beginning were you two alone?

    21 A. Yes. Later on, other people were brought in.

    22 Q. We are talking about the beginning. Is it

    23 true that, at the very beginning, you were physically

    24 abused?

    25 A. That night?

  39. 1 Q. Yes.

    2 A. Yes, that first night I was mistreated.

    3 After that first night, my colleague was mistreated.

    4 Q. Let me go back to what happened to your

    5 colleague. Is it true that you said that you slept all

    6 night and the following morning you saw the colleague

    7 all bloody in that cell?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Is it true that he told you that he was

    10 beaten all night that night?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Is it true that you slept in the cell all

    13 night that night?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Can you tell me how big a room it is?

    16 A. It is two and a half metres by two metres --

    17 something like that.

    18 MR. MIKULICIC: May I ask the usher's

    19 assistance to help me show the witness exhibit number

    20 86? (Handed).

    21 Mr. M, who is this person?

    22 A. Marko Krilic, deputy commander -- he is the

    23 deputy of Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski.

    24 Q. Mr. M, has this person their back to us?

    25 A. Yes.

  40. 1 Q. How do you recognise him?

    2 A. By what he is wearing, by how he is built --

    3 I recognise him by his watch, by the short sleeves on

    4 his shirt, by the shoes that he is wearing, because

    5 I rarely saw him wearing boots -- such details.

    6 Q. But you do not recognise him by his face?

    7 A. That is correct, but I claim that this is

    8 this person 100 per cent.

    9 Q. You are also saying that you recognise him by

    10 his short sleeves?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 MR. MIKULICIC: Can I ask the usher to please

    13 show the witness a photograph marked as Exhibit 70?

    14 (Handed).

    15 Mr. M, during your testimony, you also

    16 recognised Marko Krilic in this photograph?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Can you show him to us one more time?

    19 A. (Indicates) it is this person.

    20 Q. Is this a person that has the back turned to

    21 us?

    22 A. Yes, it is the person who is walking in.

    23 Q. We do not know this because he is a static

    24 photograph?

    25 A. But I know where he is going. Maybe he is

  41. 1 going backwards.

    2 Q. How do you recognise him?

    3 A. This is a picture from the back, and, in my

    4 mind, it is the same person, because I saw this person

    5 enough times to recognise him, whichever way he is

    6 turned and I know him well enough, and he is vivid

    7 enough in my memory.

    8 Q. Regardless of the fact that you cannot see

    9 his face?

    10 A. Regardless of the fact that I do not see his

    11 face, I can recognise him.

    12 Q. Mr. M, you have extraordinary ability.

    13 A. Thank you.

    14 MR. MIKULICIC: Now, can you show me --

    15 Mr. Usher, can you just leave that photograph there for

    16 a moment? Mr. M, could you please focus on the person

    17 standing on the platform second to the right, who is

    18 this person?

    19 A. It is one of the guards in the camp.

    20 Q. Do you see an insignia on him?

    21 A. I do not. He is wearing -- he is a sort of

    22 sloppy soldier. He does not look like a soldier. He

    23 is all unbuttoned and everything.

    24 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. Mr. M, -- Mr. Usher,

    25 we have no further need for this photograph, I thank

  42. 1 you.

    2 Mr. M, you described your encounters with the

    3 Red Cross official?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. In which way did you contact her -- directly,

    6 or through an interpreter?

    7 A. Through an interpreter.

    8 Q. In which way did she communicate with the

    9 commander?

    10 A. Through an interpreter.

    11 Q. Mr. M, is your knowledge -- let me first ask

    12 you, what language did the Red Cross official use?

    13 A. English.

    14 Q. Is your knowledge of English sufficient to

    15 understand what she was saying?

    16 A. At that time, I did not speak enough English

    17 to understand.

    18 Q. Is it not true that you stated previously

    19 during your testimony that she was saying something to

    20 Zlatko Aleksovski?

    21 A. Yes, through an interpreter, I said that.

    22 Q. Did you not say that when they spoke they

    23 pulled aside?

    24 A. Yes, they went -- they pulled back so that

    25 they would not be behind our backs, but on the other

  43. 1 side of the table where we were sitting to be

    2 registered and to send messages to our next of kin that

    3 we were alive.

    4 Q. Mr. M, you said that you were taken to see a

    5 physician in Busovaca?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. You said that you were there with another two

    8 persons?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Do you know the names of these two persons?

    11 A. Yes, but I would not like to reveal their

    12 identity. I think that their names are in the

    13 statement, and they are from the village of Jelinak.

    14 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. M, I would like to ask you

    15 to write down their names on a piece of paper and then

    16 we will show this piece of paper to the Prosecution and

    17 then enter it into evidence.

    18 Is the Prosecution agreeable to this

    19 approach?

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

    21 (Witness writes on piece of paper)

    22 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. M, the two persons whose

    23 names will go unmentioned, in respect of their

    24 identity, what kind of injuries did they have, why did

    25 they see a doctor?

  44. 1 A. I do not know -- they had certain painful

    2 areas in the back. I did not enter into the

    3 examination room together with them. We walked in one

    4 by one.

    5 Q. How were you transported from Kaonik to the

    6 doctor in Busovaca?

    7 A. Mr. Aleksovski took us there in a vehicle.

    8 Q. Were there any guards with you as escorts?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. If I understand you correctly, it was the

    11 three of you, the three prisoners, and Mr. Aleksovski?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Were you tied?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. When you came to the clinic, you said that

    16 you entered the physician's office one by one?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. When one of the three of you entered, where

    19 were the other two?

    20 A. We were in the hallway -- we were there right

    21 next to the door.

    22 Q. Were you under any kind of guard?

    23 A. No, we were not.

    24 Q. Mr. M, you described what kind of medical

    25 treatment you received in Busovaca?

  45. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. You described how during your entire stay in

    3 Kaonik you spent a total of seven days there, and the

    4 rest out working?

    5 A. Yes -- not working entirely. I would be

    6 taken there and back, but it was only seven days that

    7 I did not leave the compound.

    8 Q. Mr. M, you described all the medical

    9 complaints that you suffered through that. When you

    10 were released, did you go to see a physician in Zenica?

    11 A. When I was released in Zenica?

    12 Q. Yes, my question is, did you go to see a

    13 physician once you arrived in Zenica?

    14 A. Yes, I understand your question -- I did not

    15 go to see a physician, because, with the Red Cross

    16 card, I could not prove my identity in order to get

    17 medical treatment; in other words, I could -- all my

    18 personal documents were taken away from me, so that

    19 I could not get any treatment in Zenica. I had to have

    20 other documents issued -- replacement documents, and

    21 I was born in the municipality of Busovaca, and I had

    22 to go there to have my documents reissued, which was

    23 impossible, so I gave up on getting medical treatment.

    24 Q. Did I understand you correctly, that you

    25 wanted to see a physician, and you were turned down, or

  46. 1 you did not go there at all?

    2 A. Let me explain -- when I arrived in Zenica,

    3 people who had been beaten, who had medical problems,

    4 were selected and, since I had no personal hygiene,

    5 I never bathed during my stay in Kaonik, I first

    6 insisted to go to our family so that we would clean

    7 ourselves and then go to see a doctor and two or three

    8 days later I went to the doctor's with this Red Cross

    9 ID and I could not receive any treatment -- the

    10 conditions in our country at that time were very

    11 different than they are now.

    12 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, your Honours.

    13 I have no further questions.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, do you have

    15 any additional questions.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing in re-examination,

    17 your Honour.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Registrar, the exhibit

    19 is number?

    20 THE REGISTRAR: It is D4 of the Defence and

    21 I suppose that there is a request for it to be admitted

    22 into evidence.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, I think that was

    24 implicit and the Chamber has granted admission.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: So the number is D4.

  47. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much.

    2 Witness M, the Trial Chamber has no further

    3 questions for you. Therefore, you have completed your

    4 testimony. The International Criminal Tribunal wishes

    5 to thank you very much for coming, and wishes you a

    6 safe journey to your country. Thank you.

    7 A. Thank you, your Honours.

    8 (The witness withdrew)

    9 MR. NIEMANN: Might I ask the last exhibit

    10 be admitted under seal, if your Honour pleases.

    11 MR. MIKULICIC: I thank my learned friend --

    12 that should have been my proposal, but I forgot to --

    13 omitted to mention it -- of course I agree.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you.

    15 Mr. Niemann, are you going to request

    16 protective measures for the next witness?

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. This application will be

    18 made by my colleague, Mr. Meddegoda, who will be taking

    19 this witness through his evidence.

    20 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, the next

    21 Prosecution witness we wish to call is witness number 5

    22 in paragraph 4 of the motion dated 20 March 1998, and

    23 in respect of that witness, too, your Honours, I am

    24 making an application on his behalf seeking protective

    25 measures. I am seeking that the witness be assigned a

  48. 1 pseudonym and, also, that the image of his face be

    2 distorted during the course of his testimony. If your

    3 Honours are inclined to grant the application, the

    4 witness may be assigned pseudonym N -- he will be known

    5 as Witness N.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?

    7 MR. MIKULICIC: No objections, your Honours.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, we will take

    9 the measures that we took for the previous witness.

    10 Are the technicians ready for that? I think that we

    11 can have the witness brought in.

    12 MR. MEDDEGODA: I am calling Witness N, your

    13 Honour.

    14 (The witness entered court)

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Sir, do you

    16 hear me well?

    17 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Please read the solemn

    19 declaration that the usher is handing to you.

    20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that

    21 I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

    22 the truth.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated. Will

    24 you please approach the table a little bit to be closer

    25 to the microphones?

  49. 1 A. Very well.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much. You

    3 are going to answer questions which the Prosecutor,

    4 Mr. Meddegoda is going to put to you, please.


    6 Examined by MR. MEDDEGODA.

    7 Q. Witness, their Honours have been pleased to

    8 grant protective measures, therefore you will be known

    9 throughout the course of your testimony as Witness N.

    10 Before I start, may I ask you to read the name written

    11 on the piece of paper and would you confirm whether

    12 that is your name or not?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. That may be shown to my learned friend and

    15 also I tender that document under seal.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 89.

    17 MR. MEDDEGODA: Witness, you are Bosniak by

    18 ethnicity?

    19 A. Yes, I am.

    20 Q. And your religion is Islam?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Witness, I take you -- could you state what

    23 your age is?

    24 A. 37.

    25 Q. Witness, I take you back to the events of

  50. 1 January 1993. Do you remember the day when you were

    2 arrested?

    3 A. Yes, I do remember.

    4 Q. When were you arrested?

    5 A. It was 25 January, in the afternoon.

    6 Q. And it was 25 January in which year?

    7 A. The year was 1992 -- 25 January.

    8 Q. Is it 1992 or 1993 -- which year were you

    9 arrested -- 25 January 1992 or 1993?

    10 A. 25 January 1993 -- in 1991 it started but on

    11 25 January 1993 is when it happened.

    12 Q. And where were you at the time you were

    13 arrested?

    14 A. I was in my house with my family.

    15 Q. And who arrested you when you were in your

    16 house with your family?

    17 A. The soldiers of the HVO army arrested me and

    18 among them were those with the HV insignia of the

    19 Croat army.

    20 Q. Could you tell this court what these soldiers

    21 were dressed in?

    22 A. The soldiers were dressed in camouflage

    23 uniforms, they had caps on top of them, they had

    24 helmets and they were fully equipped.

    25 Q. What do you mean by saying they were "fully

  51. 1 equipped"?

    2 A. They had weapons, they were dressed

    3 completely, they wore stockings over their faces, they

    4 had helmets.

    5 Q. Were any of these soldiers carrying weapons?

    6 A. Yes, they had long barrelled weapons, all of

    7 them.

    8 Q. Do you recall about how many soldiers were

    9 there at the time you were arrested?

    10 A. I cannot say certainly, but there were

    11 definitely more than 10.

    12 Q. What happened after you were arrested?

    13 A. We were brought out in front of the house, we

    14 were driven together down the street with the other

    15 neighbours with children. The houses in the

    16 surrounding hills were on fire, there were soldiers

    17 walking around in the streets carrying weapons. It was

    18 an event that was hard to describe. At times, we could

    19 not -- why, how? We started towards the centre of town

    20 where a bus was waiting. As we were approaching buses

    21 we saw their soldiers looting Muslim businesses or

    22 stores, and on one side there were kiosks and the women

    23 and children had been separated out, and we were

    24 ordered to board the bus.

    25 Q. After being ordered to board the bus, were

  52. 1 you driven in the bus in any direction?

    2 A. We were taken -- after the bus was full and

    3 it was packed -- it was overcrowded -- and we were then

    4 taken in the direction of Kaonik to the Kaonik camp.

    5 Q. What happened upon arrival at the Kaonik

    6 camp?

    7 A. We were brought there, we passed a building

    8 which was past a gate and this building was where the

    9 Croat soldiers were staying. We passed that

    10 building, and a short distance later the bus came to a

    11 stop, we got off and we were taken -- the HVO soldiers

    12 were behind us and we were taken to a hangar.

    13 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, would the usher

    14 please show -- I am tendering an aerial photograph of

    15 the camp which has already been tendered. May the

    16 usher be asked to hand over a copy to the witness, and

    17 there are copies each for your Honours and for

    18 Mr. Mikulicic. (Handed).

    19 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 90.

    20 MR. MEDDEGODA: Witness, could you carefully

    21 look at that aerial photograph that has been given to

    22 you, and, placing it on the ELMO that is beside you,

    23 could you point out the building to which you were

    24 brought in Kaonik camp?

    25 A. We were brought to this building

  53. 1 (indicates). This was a hangar, the one we were

    2 brought to the first time, this building here, and this

    3 was the prison (indicates) with cells, this other

    4 building.

    5 Q. Could you please, using one of the markers by

    6 your side, mark with the letter "A" the hangar building

    7 that you were first brought to?

    8 A. (Witness marked photograph).

    9 Q. You also said the building next to that was

    10 the building with the cells; could you please mark that

    11 building with the letter "B"?

    12 A. (Witness marked photograph).

    13 Q. Upon being brought to that hangar building,

    14 do you remember what happened?

    15 A. We were all crowded into a group. There were

    16 other people there too, I do not know exactly how many,

    17 and Mr. Aleksovski came -- that gentleman (indicating)

    18 and he issued orders -- whether we had anything on us,

    19 any hard objects or anything in their pockets, they had

    20 to empty all those things out, and the order was given

    21 that all of us should turn against the wall, to face

    22 the wall.

    23 We did as we were ordered. We faced the wall

    24 and raised our hands against the wall.

    25 Q. What happened after you faced the wall,

  54. 1 raising your hands?

    2 A. This did not last long -- a couple of

    3 soldiers approached and they searched us by hand, to

    4 make sure that there was nothing left in the way of

    5 arms or knives or anything like that. As they did not

    6 find anything on any one of us --

    7 Q. Witness, you said when you were brought in,

    8 Zlatko Aleksovski was present?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Do you remember what he was dressed in,

    11 Mr. Aleksovski?

    12 A. He was dressed in camouflage uniform. He was

    13 heavier, he was of medium height, he was more fair --

    14 his hair was fair, though he has lost weight now.

    15 Q. Did he address the prisoners who were brought

    16 into the hangar building?

    17 A. Yes, he did. He said, "I am the director of

    18 the Kaonik prison, and you are now my responsibility."

    19 Q. In addition to Mr. Aleksovski, were there

    20 other camp officials present at the time you were

    21 brought in?

    22 A. There were -- only I do not recall their

    23 names, who they were.

    24 Q. And what were those camp officials dressed

    25 in?

  55. 1 A. Also in camouflage uniforms.

    2 MR. MEDDEGODA: Mr. Usher, I will not need the

    3 photograph any more.

    4 Witness, could you tell this court what

    5 happened after you were searched inside the hangar?

    6 A. After having been searched in the hangar, the

    7 order was given, after the search was made and our

    8 things put aside, to turn around again and again we

    9 formed a group. It was almost dark and there was no

    10 light inside. We were told that we would stay there

    11 under his orders, and that evening there were pallets

    12 that we would lie on. Those of us who did not have

    13 pallets -- these pallets were wide -- one pallet was

    14 for two people, for two men. Some people had blankets,

    15 some did not, but nobody really cared -- we were all in

    16 a panic and frightened.

    17 Q. What happened to you the next day?

    18 A. The next day, in the afternoon, men were

    19 rounded up in that same hangar and the order was that

    20 15 to 20 men should get ready, that is, those whose

    21 names were called out from a list, that they would be

    22 used as a human shield.

    23 Q. Were names called out from a list at any

    24 point in time that day?

    25 A. Yes, the names were called out. I do not

  56. 1 remember exactly what time it was, but somewhere around

    2 1 or 2 in the afternoon, and we were a human shield

    3 until 5 or 6 and the names were called out.

    4 Q. Witness, could you tell the court who called

    5 out the names of the prisoners?

    6 A. The names of the prisoners were called out by

    7 Marko Krilic.

    8 Q. Do you know who Marko Krilic was?

    9 A. Marko Krilic was the deputy of the director

    10 of the camp, because Marko Krilic introduced himself

    11 when we were forced down from Kula and he told us when

    12 Aleksovski was absent, that he would stand in for him

    13 and carry out his duties.

    14 Q. What kind of dress was Marko Krilic dressed

    15 in?

    16 A. Marko Krilic was also dressed in a camouflage

    17 uniform -- he had boots.

    18 Q. What happened after your names -- was your

    19 name called out by Marko Krilic?

    20 A. Yes, it was.

    21 Q. What happened when your name was called out?

    22 A. After my name was called out, a bus, a

    23 Centrotrans bus was waiting -- the same bus that had

    24 brought us to the camp and when the names were read

    25 out, Ljubo Brnjic was ordered to tie up the men, and

  57. 1 Ljubo Brnjic said that he could not tie up the men

    2 whose names had been called out, so Drago Pusic did it.

    3 Q. Do you remember how the men were tied?

    4 A. They were also dressed in camouflage

    5 uniforms.

    6 Q. Do you remember how the prisoners were tied

    7 by Drago Pusic?

    8 A. There was a white rope and we were ordered to

    9 put our hands behind our backs, and he took a white

    10 rope, and tied us in groups of five. The whole group

    11 numbered 15 men -- the remaining five did not need to

    12 go, so just this group of 15 men were tied up.

    13 Q. What happened after you were tied up?

    14 A. After being tied up, we were ordered to board

    15 the bus with our hands tied behind our backs, one by

    16 one to climb up the steps into the bus and to go to the

    17 far end of the bus.

    18 Q. What happened after you got into the bus --

    19 after you and the other prisoners who were tied got

    20 into the bus?

    21 A. The bus set off towards the village of

    22 Skradno, but it did not go all the way there -- it

    23 stopped at a bus station where there is a kind of

    24 widening of the road and we were ordered to get off the

    25 bus with our hands still tied and, when we got off the

  58. 1 bus, the soldiers were standing behind our backs, and

    2 ordered us to move on towards the village of Skradno,

    3 so we went along the road and we reached the bridge

    4 known as Sendoline Kuce.

    5 We passed the bridge and, as soon as we

    6 passed the bridge, we were ordered to -- after crossing

    7 the bridge -- to spread out towards the village of

    8 Skradno.

    9 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, might the

    10 witness be shown the document that I wish to tender at

    11 this stage? There is a copy one each for your Honour

    12 and one for Mr. Mikulicic and I tender that as the next

    13 exhibit in order.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Mr. Meddegoda --

    15 witness, could you put your headphones on your head

    16 like this? It would be more comfortable for you

    17 I think. Is that not better?

    18 A. Yes, yes, thank you.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit 91.

    20 (Handed).

    21 MR. MEDDEGODA: You have before you an

    22 aerial photograph. Could you carefully look at that

    23 photograph and --

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. -- point out in that photograph, if you

  59. 1 could, the premises of the Kaonik prison facility?

    2 A. This is the compound (indicating) with the

    3 hangars, with the gate here (indicating), the exit from

    4 the Kaonik barracks. The road joins the main road to

    5 Busovaca.

    6 Q. Could you, on this photograph, if possible,

    7 show us --

    8 A. We reached this cross-roads at the bridge of

    9 Sendoline Kuce -- we crossed the bridge and we were

    10 deployed here to face the village of Skradno

    11 (indicates).

    12 Q. Could you please mark on that photograph the

    13 place at which you were deployed facing the village of

    14 Skradno?

    15 A. This bridge -- this is the bridge

    16 (indicates).

    17 Q. Perhaps the bridge could be marked?

    18 A. We crossed the bridge.

    19 Q. You crossed the bridge?

    20 A. And on the other side of the bridge, here

    21 (indicating) and this is the road leading to Skradno

    22 (indicating).

    23 Q. In which direction is the village of Skradno

    24 -- could you draw an arrow in the direction of the

    25 village of Skradno, witness?

  60. 1 A. (Witness marked photograph). Here -- it is

    2 here.

    3 Q. At the point that you -- could you mark the

    4 bridge that you have marked on this photograph -- could

    5 you place the letter "A" on the bridge? Witness, it is

    6 not too visible. Could you mark it a little outside

    7 that area, and draw an arrow towards the bridge?

    8 A. (Witness marked photograph).

    9 Q. The point at which you and the other

    10 prisoners had to stand, could you mark that point with

    11 the letter "B". Maybe you could mark it outside and

    12 then draw an arrow in that direction?

    13 A. (Witness marked photograph).

    14 Q. Witness, you said that you were standing

    15 there together with the others, facing the village of

    16 Skradno?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. For how long did you have to stand facing the

    19 village?

    20 A. We stood there -- I do not remember exactly

    21 how long, but I know that somebody came out of the

    22 group to negotiate with the Croat soldiers at

    23 Skradno. We stood there tied up -- I do not remember

    24 exactly for how long -- tied up like that. After some

    25 time the order was given that they had agreed that the

  61. 1 village would surrender.

    2 Q. Do you know -- you said somebody came out of

    3 the group; out of which group did somebody come out to

    4 negotiate with the Croat soldiers?

    5 A. This group that had escorted us -- I do not

    6 recall exactly which one of the Croat soldiers it

    7 was.

    8 Q. What type of uniform were those soldiers

    9 wearing?

    10 A. Camouflage uniforms with HVO insignia.

    11 Q. What happened after this negotiation?

    12 A. After the negotiations, again we were ordered

    13 to turn around and to go towards the main road towards

    14 the bus, and we did, with our hands still tied. We

    15 went to the bus, which we boarded again. Still tied

    16 up, we got in, one by one, and then the bus started off

    17 again towards the Kaonik cross-roads. We reached the --

    18 we did not go as far as the cross-roads, but we stopped

    19 in front of a shop, and there was a warehouse to the

    20 right of that shop, and again we were ordered to get

    21 out of the bus, tied up, and to go towards the Kaonik

    22 cross-roads -- there was the old road to the left.

    23 Q. Having got off the bus --

    24 A. No, to the right -- to the right is the road

    25 leading to Podjele.

  62. 1 Q. Having got off the bus, witness, what did you

    2 and the other group have to do -- the others in the

    3 group have to do?

    4 A. We had to get off one by one, we were still

    5 tied up, and we went towards Kaonik -- the old road,

    6 leading to Podjele. We were still tied up. Close by

    7 were building blocks.

    8 Q. Could you please, looking at the photograph

    9 that is on the ELMO, could you please point out the

    10 place that you went to after getting off the bus, and

    11 I suggest you use --

    12 A. Here, this is the main road. We were tied up

    13 (indicating) and we got to this cross-roads here, the

    14 first one (indicating). To the right is the road to

    15 Podjele, and to the left is the old road. Here, on one

    16 side, is the building block facility and another one

    17 across the road (indicating). There is a building left

    18 from an old rail track, and in this building

    19 (indicating) there were the Croat soldiers and we

    20 were ordered to pass along this road, and to stop to

    21 form a line, because we were tied up in groups of five,

    22 so we had to stand crossways on the road.

    23 Q. Could you place a mark at the point you had

    24 to stand?

    25 A. (Witness marked photograph).

  63. 1 Q. Could you please place the letter "C" at that

    2 point?

    3 A. (Witness marked photograph).

    4 Q. When you were standing there, witness, which

    5 direction were you facing?

    6 A. We were facing the village of Strane, which

    7 was from the main Vitez/Zenica road, in this area here

    8 (indicating).

    9 Q. How long did you stand facing the direction

    10 of Strane?

    11 A. We stood there for a longer period. Behind

    12 our backs were the soldiers facing the railway hangar

    13 -- they were behind our backs firing from firearms,

    14 occasionally, whereas a group of Jokers was crossing

    15 from Vujicas Kuce behind the old school building

    16 towards this pine wood and, at that moment, Darko came

    17 full speed from the upper end, and he was in a vehicle,

    18 and we were standing there tied up in a line, so we did

    19 not know whether we should go left or right, but he

    20 managed to fly past in his vehicle, and we just moved

    21 away. He stopped his vehicle, and he asked a man

    22 whether it was true that his brother had been killed,

    23 and he offered him a cigarette from his packet.

    24 Q. Do you know who Darko is?

    25 A. Darko Kraljevic, born in Vitez -- he was also

  64. 1 a leader of this group called Jokers.

    2 Q. You said there was firing by the soldiers who

    3 were behind you, and you also said that the firing --

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. -- was over your head?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. In which direction was the firing directed

    8 at?

    9 A. They were firing in the direction of the

    10 village of Strane.

    11 Q. For how long did this firing last?

    12 A. The firing did not last long. Two men --

    13 actually, I do not know the exact number -- went off to

    14 negotiate the surrender of the village of Strane,

    15 because there was no chance for them. The village had

    16 to surrender, because they had already almost reached

    17 the village of Strane, because they had passed the old

    18 school.

    19 Q. Do you know what the ethnic composition of

    20 the village of Strane was at the time?

    21 A. At the time, it was a purely Muslim village.

    22 Q. Do you know whether the village of Strane

    23 finally surrendered to the HVO?

    24 A. The village of Strane surrendered -- it was

    25 agreed -- apparently they had surrendered, and we were

  65. 1 no longer needed as a human shield.

    2 Q. What happened thereafter?

    3 A. After that, we were ordered again to turn

    4 around and to go on foot, tied up as we were, along the

    5 middle of the road towards the barracks of Kaonik

    6 (indicating) and behind our back there were HVO

    7 soldiers who were on the move, also.

    8 Q. Witness, on this occasion that you were used

    9 as human shields that afternoon, you said there were 15

    10 of you who were used, who were taken -- 15 prisoners

    11 were taken tied, five together, in three groups?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Do you remember or do you know any of the

    14 other prisoners who were used as human shields? I want

    15 to know whether you know the names, I do not want you

    16 to divulge the names?

    17 A. Yes, yes, I know their names, but I cannot

    18 remember just now, this minute, because they were all

    19 men of some repute, because they wanted to select such

    20 people to be used as human shields.

    21 Q. After you were returned to the camp, were you

    22 returned to the hangar building, or were you returned

    23 to any other building in the camp?

    24 A. We were returned and, when we came through

    25 the gate, we passed the building where the Croat

  66. 1 soldiers were staying and, again, we went up that road

    2 to the hangar where we were originally brought to.

    3 Q. About two or three days later, were you taken

    4 out of the camp again?

    5 A. After that, we were again taken out --

    6 certain groups should go to the village of Kula, to go

    7 to work, to dig trenches -- dugouts.

    8 Q. Were you taken to dig trenches, to the

    9 village of Kula?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Could you describe to this court the

    12 procedure that was adopted for selection of prisoners

    13 to be taken for trench digging?

    14 A. The procedure of selection was similar -- a

    15 list was provided of men who were supposed to go to dig

    16 at Kula. Among others, I was on this list.

    17 Q. And, together with you, do you remember how

    18 many prisoners were taken to Kula?

    19 A. It was approximately -- I do not know the

    20 exact number -- 12, 15, up to 20 people.

    21 Q. What did you and the group of other prisoners

    22 have to do in Kula?

    23 A. At Kula we were forced to dig trenches.

    24 Q. For how long did you have to dig trenches?

    25 A. We dug all day, all evening, until 5 o'clock

  67. 1 the following morning when a truck arrived and took us

    2 -- it was the same vehicle that had brought us from

    3 the barracks to Kula, except that, at Kula, we did not

    4 get all the way there, so we could not pass through it

    5 -- it was a very bad road, a lot of big rocks, so we

    6 came to the end of the village where the Croat

    7 houses were, and, from there, we went on foot to the

    8 place, to the location where we were to dig trenches

    9 and dugouts.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Meddegoda, I am sorry

    11 for interrupting you, but perhaps it would be

    12 convenient to have a break now, and we will continue

    13 after a 15-minute break.

    14 (12.08pm)

    15 (A short break)

    16 (12.30pm)

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Meddegoda, please

    18 proceed.

    19 MR. MEDDEGODA: Thank you, your Honours.

    20 Witness, before the short break, you said

    21 that you went to Kula to dig trenches.

    22 Your Honours, may I ask the usher to hand

    23 over copies of this map to the witness. There are

    24 copies for your Honours as well as Mr. Mikulicic, and it

    25 may be given the next number in order.

  68. 1 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 92.

    2 (Handed).

    3 MR. MEDDEGODA: Could you carefully look at

    4 the map that is on the ELMO and mark on that map the

    5 place in Kula that you were taken to dig trenches?

    6 A. This is the village of Krcevine

    7 (indicating). We came through the village of Krcevine,

    8 where there was a mix of Croat and Muslim

    9 households, and then up to Merdani, where we came to

    10 some Croat houses, across from the village of

    11 Solakovici.

    12 Q. Could you please mark that place that you

    13 were taken, using the highlighter?

    14 A. (Witness marked map). There were Croat

    15 houses there. I cannot find these Croat houses, but

    16 approximately it is around there, Merdani,

    17 Solakovici --

    18 Q. That is all right, could you please place the

    19 letter "A" at the place that you have just marked on

    20 the map.

    21 Do you know whether this was on the

    22 front-lines?

    23 A. Yes, those were the front-lines, which were

    24 established in the area of Solakovici.

    25 Q. On the front-lines of which army were you

  69. 1 digging trenches?

    2 A. The HVO army -- the army of the Croat

    3 Defence Council.

    4 Q. Do you know whether, in the place in Kula and

    5 the others dug trenches, do you know whether you and

    6 the other prisoners had to undergo any maltreatment?

    7 A. In the afternoon, when we were assigned, we

    8 were going up a road -- we had to take tools, pickaxes

    9 and shovels, we formed a column and we finally arrived

    10 at a field. We then were assigned to certain posts

    11 there. It was still cold and the soil was still

    12 frozen, and we were told to dig these communication

    13 trenches. As we were digging it, we were throwing the

    14 earth downhill. The soldiers, who were guarding us,

    15 were uphill from us. When we dug there at that time,

    16 we were digging without stopping for two hours, and,

    17 meanwhile, we were mistreated. If we wore some better

    18 jackets and the soldiers liked it, even though it was

    19 cold, we had to take it off.

    20 So we had to dig for two and a half hours

    21 without letting go of the shovels or pickaxes. We

    22 became exhausted, we were forced to face downhill from

    23 where we had come, and we were made to run downhill, in

    24 a column, one by one, and then we were told to go on to

    25 the next location. As we walked, they kicked us.

  70. 1 We were exposed to that kind of abuse. Then

    2 we were ordered to dig up the road itself, which was

    3 just too much. We had to obey the HVO orders, but,

    4 again, it was all frozen. We could not even open any

    5 holes with these pickaxes -- it was impossible. This

    6 went on until dusk. We were again ordered to run and

    7 face this field. We passed those trenches that we had

    8 dug, and then there were some small woods across from a

    9 clearing that was slanted a little bit, and there a

    10 group of soldiers -- about 10 HVO soldiers -- and this

    11 was already dark and we were exhausted and tired -- the

    12 trenches were 50, 60, in some places 70 centimetres

    13 deep, they were uphill and soil was being shovelled

    14 downhill towards the village of Solakovici.

    15 The snow was still present in the shady

    16 areas, and then this unspeakable abuse ensued -- the

    17 HVO soldiers, who had been with us during the first

    18 part of the digging, but now this was a different group

    19 of soldiers with us, wearing camouflage uniforms, and

    20 they started abusing us, beating us with rifle butts,

    21 with shovels -- it was indescribable. There were

    22 moments when one felt like crying like a small child,

    23 and there were moments when you wanted to die from all

    24 the abuse that people were subjected to.

    25 Q. Witness, you said that you and the others had

  71. 1 to dig until the morning. What happened after you

    2 finished digging?

    3 A. Yes. There was a man there -- we all

    4 received a lot of beatings. We could not stand up, so

    5 to speak. There were people who were taken out --

    6 neighbours -- he would be given a shovel or a pickaxe

    7 and they had to beat each other with them. One of them

    8 was wearing glasses. HVO soldiers took them and

    9 smashed them with his boot and then they ordered them

    10 to beat each other.

    11 In those moments -- there was a man called

    12 Cakara -- he was taken out to a field off to the right

    13 from where we were digging -- again, the soil had been

    14 thrown downhill, and the depth of the trench was such

    15 that there was already the water showing. They did not

    16 set any limit to how deep we should dig. So he was

    17 taken out there, and he was soon unconscious, he was

    18 sort of lost and he said, "People, let me go, I would

    19 like to have a cup of coffee".

    20 Q. Was Cakara a prisoner who was brought from

    21 Kaonik to dig the trenches?

    22 A. Yes, the prisoner who was in the camp was

    23 taken to Kula with a group of people who went there to

    24 dig. Exhausted as he was, he was asked where he would

    25 want to go and they said: "You have three ways -- you

  72. 1 can go up there, down there towards your own, towards

    2 Solakovici" and he said, "People, let me go, where you

    3 say." You could see that he was beside himself. Then

    4 he said, "I am going downhill towards the trench."

    5 Then they pushed him and jumped him and at that moment

    6 he was ordered to be taken to one of the two houses

    7 that were nearby -- there was a Croat house.

    8 We were completely exhausted by this time.

    9 There were people with fractured ribs there among those

    10 people. There was no person there who had not been

    11 either abused or badly beaten.

    12 Q. Witness, you said you were digging until the

    13 morning, and, after that, in the morning, you were

    14 returned to the Kaonik camp, were you?

    15 A. Afterwards, we were taken below these

    16 Croat houses and we came to a road where to the left

    17 there was a stone house, which was abandoned, and we

    18 were taken into this house, to a room, and several

    19 soldiers remained there to guard us, and we were there

    20 exhausted and beaten up. We were thirsty and hungry.

    21 There was a gallon -- a container with some sweet dates

    22 and then we were given this container filled with these

    23 dates and then we distributed them among ourselves.

    24 Then, late that night, the military police

    25 came -- the HVO police -- wearing hats, and they opened

  73. 1 a door, they cursed our balija mothers and said, "Who

    2 ordered you to be here? Get outside." And then we

    3 were tired and beaten up, but we had to run outside,

    4 and we had to run down the road in front of them, and

    5 we came to these two small houses where there is an

    6 orchard to the left, and a wooden fence.

    7 There we were ordered to dig all night,

    8 through a plum orchard from one end to the other.

    9 There, we were not mistreated any longer. There were

    10 soldiers there who were guarding us and who ordered us

    11 where to dig, and around 4.30 to 5 o'clock, we were

    12 ordered to stop digging, that another group was going

    13 to come, and we were ordered to help the people who

    14 were in a bad condition, even though we were all

    15 exhausted, and badly beaten, but we had to go and take

    16 those people from those houses. We were in T-shirts

    17 and shirts. We had no jackets on, so we walked up that

    18 road towards the lower end of Kula -- the village of

    19 Krcevine where a truck waited for us.

    20 Q. In that truck you were brought back to the

    21 Kaonik camp?

    22 A. The truck was parked, and exhausted and

    23 beaten up as we were, we could not climb on board,

    24 because the gates were up, so we had to help each

    25 other, so two people would push one person up on to the

  74. 1 truck. Once we all boarded, we were ordered that

    2 nobody was allowed to peak above the gates, until we

    3 reached the Kaonik barracks.

    4 During the drive in this truck --

    5 MR. MEDDEGODA: Could you please stop --

    6 JUDGE VOHRAH: Make your witness answer

    7 your questions directly. Do not let him ramble.

    8 MR. MEDDEGODA: Very well.

    9 Witness, after having boarded the camp, you

    10 and the other prisoners were brought to the Kaonik

    11 camp; is that right?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And to which building were you returned to in

    14 the camp?

    15 A. We were returned to the building where the

    16 cells had been built.

    17 Q. That was the building that you marked

    18 with --

    19 A. Yes, that is the one I have marked before.

    20 Q. With the letter "B" on Prosecution

    21 exhibit --

    22 A. Yes, if I can only look at it, please.

    23 MR. MEDDEGODA: May the witness be shown

    24 Prosecution Exhibit 90, your Honours?

    25 A. Yes, this was the hangar where we were

  75. 1 placed.

    2 Q. You might like to place it on the ELMO so

    3 that it can be seen by the judges and by the court.

    4 You were returned to the hangar that you have marked

    5 with the letter "B"; is that right?

    6 A. Yes, that is right.

    7 Q. And, in that building, were you put into a

    8 particular cell?

    9 A. Yes, I was placed in cell number 13.

    10 Q. And, thereafter, were you taken to dig

    11 trenches to any other place?

    12 A. Yes, we were put in several groups so one

    13 group went one day, another group went another day.

    14 Q. Now, where were you taken thereafter to dig

    15 trenches?

    16 A. The next time I was taken to the village of

    17 Prosije. You go uphill.

    18 Q. Witness, could you please mark the village of

    19 Prosije on the map that has been produced and which is

    20 before you, and which has been produced as Prosecution

    21 Exhibit P92?

    22 A. (Witness marked map).

    23 Q. Could you place the letter "B" at the point

    24 that you have marked?

    25 A. (Witness marked map).

  76. 1 Q. Other than Prosije, were you taken elsewhere

    2 to dig trenches?

    3 A. I was taken to the village of Bakije.

    4 Q. Could you please look at the map and mark the

    5 village that Bakije that you were taken to?

    6 A. (Witness marked map).

    7 Q. Could you place the letter "C"?

    8 A. This is in the direction of Loncari.

    9 Q. Were you also taken to Podjele to dig

    10 trenches?

    11 A. Yes, I stayed at Podjele for two days and two

    12 nights and the commander there was Zare from Kotovarac

    13 and his sidekick called Tyson. He took off his T-shirt

    14 so he would walk around bare-chested and we were told,

    15 "Do not even think about not carrying out his orders,

    16 because otherwise you will see what will come to you",

    17 and there were also two women with him. There we dug

    18 for two days and two nights -- from some Serb houses

    19 towards the chapel, and this was also front-line --

    20 overlooking the village of Merdani.

    21 Q. Did you continue to stay in the building with

    22 cells throughout your detention in the camp after you

    23 were transferred from the hangar building?

    24 A. As groups went and others came, there was a

    25 lot of movement among the cells. The HVO members who

  77. 1 had allegedly looted and were in custody, they were in

    2 cell number 1, their doors were unlocked all the time

    3 and they were free to move around, up and down the

    4 corridor. I no longer remember the numbers of the

    5 cells, but, anyway, we were switched around all of

    6 those cells.

    7 Q. Did you have -- was there heating facilities

    8 inside the cells in which you were detained?

    9 A. No, no.

    10 Q. Did you have the facility to wash yourselves

    11 during your period of detention?

    12 A. No, no. Under no circumstances, because you

    13 had to knock for him to open the door for you to go

    14 out.

    15 Q. Witness, during the time you spent in Kaonik

    16 camp, were you visited by an international

    17 organisation?

    18 A. Yes. The Red Cross organisation, they came

    19 to register us.

    20 Q. Do you remember when the Red Cross came to

    21 register you?

    22 A. I remember very well. We were down there in

    23 those cells, in the hangar -- this was 2 February 1993

    24 -- when they put on the tables white sheets of paper,

    25 the conditions were to be made to appear better.

  78. 1 Q. Witness, you were in the Kaonik camp until

    2 8 February 1993?

    3 A. Yes, that is correct.

    4 Q. And that was the day on which you were

    5 exchanged?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Witness, you said in the course of your

    8 testimony that, when you arrived in the camp, the

    9 commander of the camp, Zlatko Aleksovski, was present?

    10 A. Yes. The moment when -- on the evening of 25

    11 January, in the afternoon, when we were taken to the

    12 hangar, he came, and he said, "I am Zlatko Aleksovski.

    13 I am the director of the Kaonik prison, and you are now

    14 under my authority."

    15 Q. Would you be able to recognise Mr. Aleksovski

    16 if you see him again?

    17 A. I would at any moment in time. There he is

    18 sitting over there next to the policeman.

    19 MR. MEDDEGODA: Could it be recorded that

    20 the witness pointed in the direction of the accused.


    22 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, I have no

    23 further questions, and before I wind up, I tender

    24 Exhibits P89 to 92 into evidence.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Meddegoda.

  79. 1 Mr. Mikulicic, do you have questions for this witness.

    2 Please proceed -- it is going to be Mr. Joka.

    3 Cross-examined by MR. JOKA.

    4 Q. Thank you, your Honours.

    5 I am attorney Joka, Defence counsel for

    6 Zlatko Aleksovski. In view of the time, I will go

    7 straight to Kaonik -- the road to Kaonik will not take

    8 long, so tell the Trial Chamber, please, what your

    9 educational background is?

    10 A. I have completed secondary school.

    11 Q. Which one?

    12 A. A commercial school for tradesmen.

    13 Q. How many years does it last -- is it four,

    14 six or eight?

    15 A. Elementary school plus three of secondary

    16 school.

    17 Q. Did you study any foreign language?

    18 A. Russian and French -- that is what you

    19 studied add school.

    20 Q. Do you speak Russian or French?

    21 A. Yes, I can understand Russian, because

    22 I studied it in secondary school.

    23 Q. What is your profession?

    24 A. I am unemployed.

    25 Q. But what were you in those days before you

  80. 1 were detained -- what did you live off?

    2 A. I lived off my labour. It depended what kind

    3 of job I could find, so I worked for a living.

    4 Q. So you had no permanent employment?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Were you, in those days, and I am referring

    7 to the period before you were taken to Kaonik, were you

    8 a member of any political Party?

    9 A. No, no, not at all, I was never interested in

    10 any Parties.

    11 Q. You said that, on 21 January 1993, you were

    12 arrested?

    13 A. On the 25th of January 1993.

    14 Q. Did you have any weapons, or anyone else in

    15 your house?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Did your co-villagers have any weapons?

    18 A. I do not know, because I was not interested

    19 in what other people were doing.

    20 Q. You described your arrival at Kaonik, and you

    21 said that the prison director introduced himself. Did

    22 he give you his full name?

    23 A. Yes, that evening, when there were many

    24 people in the hangar.

    25 Q. Did he give you his name -- his first and

  81. 1 surname?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. You described how he was dressed?

    4 A. In an uniform.

    5 Q. Did he have any insignia?

    6 A. I did not pay any attention.

    7 Q. Did you see any or not?

    8 A. I did not.

    9 Q. You described how you were tied up, and taken

    10 to be used as a human shield. You told us who called

    11 your name out. Do you know who compiled that list?

    12 A. I do not remember who compiled it. I do not

    13 know who compiled it. I just know that Marko brought

    14 it and read out the names.

    15 Q. You described this incident to the Trial

    16 Chamber, that you were used as a human shield at two

    17 locations, Podjele and Strane?

    18 A. No, Skradno was the first and the second one

    19 was near Kaonik facing Strane.

    20 Q. This second occasion, you said that you were

    21 used as a human shield near the bridge.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you know which is the first village that

    24 you were facing, the closest village?

    25 A. We had passed Sendoline's houses and then we

  82. 1 were deployed towards the village of Skradno.

    2 Q. But is there another village before Skradno?

    3 A. There was Sendoline Kuce to the right.

    4 Q. Have you heard the of Vujica's Kuce?

    5 A. Vujica's houses is behind the old school at

    6 Kaonik. That is where Vujica's houses are.

    7 Q. Could you show us that on the map?

    8 A. Yes, gladly.

    9 MR. JOKA: This is Exhibit 91. Could I ask

    10 for the usher's assistance, please? (Handed).

    11 A. Kaonik, the barracks, the hangars, this is

    12 the road leading to the main road out of the barracks

    13 where it joins the main road -- the main road takes you

    14 to the bridge. To the left across the bridge is the

    15 road going to the village of Skradno, this upper part

    16 is the village of Skradno -- that is where the village

    17 is. The Vujica's Kuce is over here. Then we go back

    18 from the bridge on the main road towards Kaonik. We

    19 come to the old road for Kaonik and the road leading to

    20 Vujica's houses. Then we pass on --

    21 Q. Sorry for interrupting; Vujica, you showed

    22 them over to the right and now to the left?

    23 A. This is the old road -- this old road leads

    24 to the old bridge, and right is the road to Podjele, so

    25 we went along the road towards Kaonik. Then we turned

  83. 1 back along the main highway to Vitez and we come to the

    2 old school, and over here are Vujica Kuce.

    3 Q. But you showed us Vujica Kuce on the first

    4 locality and now you have indicated them on the second

    5 as well?

    6 A. No, that is not correct. The first locality

    7 was when we crossed the bridge.

    8 Q. Maybe you were confused?

    9 A. No, no, I was not -- no confusion. I know

    10 very well that the village of Skradno is across the

    11 bridge and you have to take the opposite way -- take

    12 the main road that takes you to the highway and then to

    13 the left towards Vitez, and here is a Muslim cemetery

    14 and then there is a road leading to Vucijas Kuce and

    15 the old school building.

    16 Q. I am referring to the position near the

    17 bridge. Can you show us that bridge once again,

    18 please. Let us forget the first episode -- I am

    19 talking about the second episode all the time?

    20 A. Human shield -- there is the Lasva River,

    21 there is a new bridge here, from the main Vitez/Zenica

    22 road leading to the factory -- building block factory.

    23 Then, to the right, where the human shield was, that is

    24 the road leading to Podjele and the old road leading

    25 towards the old bridge.

  84. 1 Q. Very well. Could you tell us, please --

    2 A. I am at your service.

    3 Q. -- in these villages that you have described,

    4 Skradno, Strane, Podjele, were there BiH army members

    5 there?

    6 A. I do not know who and what was there. I just

    7 know that fire was not opened from these villages.

    8 Q. Did I understand you well, you were not fired

    9 at from these villages?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. That is all regarding your use as human

    12 shields. You have described to the Trial Chamber your

    13 five forced labour incidents. When describing it, at

    14 least for the first time, you said that this went on

    15 the basis of a list. Do you know who made up that

    16 list?

    17 A. I do not know who made the list, but I just

    18 know who read out that list.

    19 Q. Tell us, are you a believer?

    20 A. I am.

    21 Q. Do you perform religious rites?

    22 A. It depends on the opportunity.

    23 Q. While you were there, those 15 days, did you

    24 perform your religious rites?

    25 A. There were no conditions for us.

  85. 1 Q. What kind of conditions?

    2 A. The conditions were very difficult.

    3 Q. But what are the conditions that you require

    4 in order to pray?

    5 A. You have to be clean, and in order. You have

    6 to have water, you need to have a small rug to be able

    7 to pray on.

    8 Q. Is it essential to wash the hands or in some

    9 other way?

    10 A. Yes, you have to wash your hands and your

    11 feet and your ears.

    12 MR. JOKA: We have heard other explanations,

    13 but I would not go into that now.

    14 I have no further questions, your Honour.

    15 MR. MEDDEGODA: I have no questions in

    16 re-examination.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Meddegoda, have you any

    18 questions.

    19 MR. MEDDEGODA: No questions, in

    20 re-examination, your Honour.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Witness N, the Trial

    22 Chamber has no further questions for you. Therefore,

    23 you have completed your testimony here at the

    24 International Criminal Tribunal. We thank you for

    25 coming, and we wish you a safe journey home

  86. 1 A. Thank you.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Will you pull down the

    3 blinds, please?

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Prosecutor, are we

    5 going to take advantage of the time that we have left

    6 to introduce the witness, or shall we begin tomorrow?

    7 MR. MEDDEGODA: I may take advantage of the

    8 time. There is another witness. I could introduce the

    9 witness to the court and also go along to take his

    10 evidence up to a convenient point so that he could

    11 continue tomorrow.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well. Mr. Usher, will

    13 you please pull down the blinds so that the witness can

    14 be escorted out.

    15 (The witness withdrew)

    16 MR. MEDDEGODA: The next Prosecution witness

    17 is also a witness on whose behalf I would wish to apply

    18 for protective measures. He is witness number 6 in

    19 paragraph 4 of the inventory file dated 20 March and,

    20 on his behalf, too, your Honours, I would move that

    21 your Honours be pleased to grant him a pseudonym and,

    22 also, that the image of his face be distorted during

    23 the course of his testimony.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have

    25 any objections?

  87. 1 MR. MIKULICIC: The Defence has no

    2 objections.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, we are going

    4 to grant the requested measures, and I should like to

    5 ask the technicians to take the necessary steps.

    6 I assume they have already been made. In that case, we

    7 can have the witness brought in, please.

    8 MR. MEDDEGODA: I am calling Witness O, your

    9 Honours.

    10 (The witness entered court)

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon. Can you

    12 hear me.

    13 THE WITNESS: I can.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Please read the solemn

    15 declaration that the usher has given to you, please.

    16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare

    17 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

    18 nothing but the truth.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated, thank

    20 you. You are now going to answer questions which the

    21 Prosecutor, Mr. Meddegoda, is going to put to you,

    22 please.

    23 WITNESS O

    24 Examined by MR. MEDDEGODA.

    25 Q. Their Honours have granted you protective

  88. 1 measures. Therefore, during the course of your

    2 testimony, you will be known as Witness O. I would

    3 advise you not to reveal any details that would divulge

    4 your personal identity. Witness, could you please --

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Witness, could you please look at the name on

    7 the sheet of paper and confirm whether that name is

    8 your name or not (Handed).

    9 A. It is.

    10 MR. MEDDEGODA: If it could be shown to

    11 learned counsel for the Defence.

    12 I tender that document under seal, your

    13 Honours.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: It is document 93.

    15 MR. MEDDEGODA: Witness, you are a Bosniak

    16 by ethnicity?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Your religion is Islam?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And could you state what your age is?

    21 A. Age?

    22 Q. Your age, not your date of birth?

    23 A. I am 43.

    24 Q. Witness, I will take you back to the events

    25 of January 1993. Do you remember the day when you were

  89. 1 arrested in January 1993?

    2 A. Yes, of course.

    3 Q. When was that and on which date was that?

    4 A. On 25 January 1993.

    5 Q. Where were you at the time you were arrested?

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 Q. Who else was with you at your house that day?

    9 A. My wife and two children.

    10 Q. Was your father also with you in your house?

    11 A. My father came later.

    12 Q. What happened when you were at home on 25

    13 January?

    14 A. In the morning, around 5 o'clock, we heard

    15 the siren, I went downstairs with my family to the

    16 ground floor of the house, and I suspected that

    17 something was wrong.

    18 Q. What happened towards the afternoon of that

    19 day?

    20 A. I was captured that afternoon and taken to

    21 the camp.

    22 Q. Who captured you that afternoon?

    23 A. HVO soldiers.

    24 Q. What were those HVO soldiers dressed in at

    25 the time they captured you?

  90. 1 A. In camouflage uniforms -- camouflage

    2 uniforms.

    3 Q. What happened to your wife and the other

    4 members of your family?

    5 A. They were all chased out of the house. We

    6 went out through the window, we did not dare go out

    7 through the door, because they were shooting around the

    8 house.

    9 Q. And getting out of the window, where were you

    10 taken to?

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 Q. What happened at the restaurant -- what

    14 happened at or near the restaurant in the centre?

    15 A. They separated the women and children from

    16 the men. There were many of us there. After a while,

    17 a bus arrived and the men were boarded on to the bus,

    18 and we were driven off to the Kaonik camp.

    19 Q. Do you remember where you got off the bus

    20 when you went to the Kaonik camp?

    21 A. We got off the bus within the compound of the

    22 camp where the canteen used to be. We entered through

    23 the gates of the camp and we did not proceed by bus,

    24 but on foot.

    25 Q. And, proceeding on foot, where were you taken

  91. 1 to within the camp compound?

    2 A. We reached a hangar. When we got to the

    3 hangar, you had to use some steps. There were pallets

    4 laid out in the hangar. There were many of us there,

    5 and we had to face the wall like this (indicating) and

    6 behind our backs were the soldiers, HVO soldiers, and

    7 Mr. Aleksovski --

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Meddegoda, I am sorry

    9 for interrupting you, but we have reached the Kaonik

    10 camp and I think perhaps we could stop here and resume

    11 the testimony tomorrow.

    12 MR. MEDDEGODA: That would be a convenient

    13 point to stop. Your Honours, before your Honours

    14 adjourn, may I move for redactions of two portions,

    15 that is a redaction at page 89, line 13, and, also, a

    16 redaction at page 90, lines 18 to 19.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes. I think they have

    18 already been redacted. For the morning, as you perhaps

    19 know, we will start at 10 o'clock, because the

    20 courtroom is occupied by another case, and we are going

    21 to proceed until 2.30pm. So, you will be able to have

    22 a break for lunch, you can plan for that, so we will

    23 stop now. Thank you.

    24 Witness, we will see you again tomorrow.

    25 (At 1.30pm the matter adjourned

  92. 1 until Thursday, 26 March 1998, at 10.00am)