1 --- Wednesday, 17th June, 1998
2 (In open session)
3 --- On commencing at 1.36 p.m.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, ladies and
5 gentlemen. Good afternoon to the interpreters and the
6 technicians. Are you prepared? Are you ready for your
7 very difficult task before you?
8 For the record, shall we introduce the affair
9 before the Chamber. First of all, Mr. Mark Dubuisson,
10 would you please inform the Chamber of the case before
12 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number
13 IT-95-14/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Zlatko Aleksovski.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Dubuisson.
15 I believe we are beginning with somewhat of a technical
16 difficulty, because my colleague and I, Judge Vohrah
17 and myself, have nothing on our screens, and this also
18 applies to Mr. Mark Dubuisson. And the Defence and the
19 Prosecution, does the Prosecution have something on its
21 MR. MEDDEGODA: Yes, Your Honours, the
22 transcript does appear on the screens.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, you are lucky. You
24 are very lucky. And the Defence? No? The Defence has
25 nothing on its screen.
1 MR. JOKA: We have nothing either.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, in any case, we can
3 continue while the technicians try to resolve the
5 So the second thing would be to allow for the
6 Prosecution to introduce itself.
7 MR. MEDDEGODA: Good afternoon, Your
8 Honours. I am Anura Meddegoda. Mr. Grant Niemann
9 appears with me and Ms. Erasmus for the Prosecution.
10 This afternoon, Your Honours, Mr. Niemann is on his
11 feet before another Trial Chamber, and he may be here
12 as soon as time permits, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In any case, he will be
14 here in spirit.
15 MR. MEDDEGODA: He would certainly.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, Your
17 Honours, I am Goran Mikulicic, and with Mr. Joka I
18 appear for the Defence.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well. We are noting
20 now that we still have nothing on our screens. And my
21 colleague Judge Nieto Navia is also lucky, because he
22 has something on his screen. I see the problem has
23 been overcome. Let us then continue.
24 Mr. Mikulicic, I believe that we are
25 continuing with Madam Cosic. So please bring Madam
1 Cosic into the room.
2 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, if you will
3 allow me before we resume. I should like to raise
4 another question which is related to one of the earlier
5 days of the trial. You will remember that
6 Dr. Bilandzic was called as a witness for Defence.
7 Professor Bilandzic identified some maps, which were
8 admitted as evidence, as D15 and D16. You will
9 remember that on the back of these maps there was
10 untranslated text. The Defence should like to state
11 explicitly that this text and part of what appears on
12 the back of these maps does not tender as evidence, nor
13 does it consider it as a relevant document. We tender
14 as evidence only the maps themselves on the front page
15 of those sheets.
16 I discussed it with my honourable colleague,
17 Mr. Meddegoda, and I believe he concurs with this
18 interpretation, but I should nevertheless like to hear
19 him say so.
20 MR. MEDDEGODA: I am certainly thankful to
21 Mr. Mikulicic, Your Honours, for the concession that he
22 has made, and that he is not relying on the text on the
23 back of those documents, D15 and D16, as part of the
24 Defence case. Thank you.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I believe that we are all
1 in agreement on this issue. Therefore, there is no
2 problem. Would you please have the witness brought in,
3 Mr. Mikulicic.
4 (The witness entered court)
5 WITNESS: ANKICA COSIC:
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, Madam
7 Cosic. Do you hear me?
8 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. Yes, I do.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Would you please come
10 closer to the microphone. There you are. Yesterday
11 you took a solemn declaration to speak the truth, the
12 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Are you in the
13 same position today, Madam?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Therefore, you will
16 continue to respond to the questions put to you by
17 Mr. Mikulicic. Thank you.
18 Mr. Mikulicic, you have the floor.
19 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour
20 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Cosic.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. Here we meet again in this Courtroom.
24 Yesterday you answered a number of questions and stated
25 various things. Today we shall have some more
1 questions, not too long, and I should like to ask you
2 to be so kind and answer them to the best of your
4 A. Thank you.
5 Q. Mrs. Cosic, yesterday you said that on one
6 occasion you went on an official visit to the Kaonik
7 facility to extend medical help to a patient; is that
9 A. It is.
10 Q. Do you remember how long you were there?
11 A. Only as long as it took to give the
13 Q. Well, how long would that be?
14 A. Five minutes.
15 Q. So all in all, you spent five minutes in
16 Kaonik; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Cosic, yesterday you told us
19 about the general impression left by the patients who
20 came to the health centre in Busovaca from Kaonik.
21 Could you tell us if, apart from patients from Kaonik,
22 some other patients also came to the health centre?
23 By this I mean civilians from the town, soldiers. Were
24 there any such patients?
25 A. Yes, there were.
1 Q. Mrs. Cosic, you don't have to bend towards
2 the microphone. It is quite sensitive. Did you have
3 an opportunity to offer medical help to HVO soldiers?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was their general state of health and
6 what did they look like? Were they fit. I mean the
7 HVO soldiers.
8 A. Well, they were -- they looked -- there were
9 among them some wounded, there were dead, others were
10 dirty, tired, their hair uncut, unshaved. That's more
11 or less what they looked like.
12 Q. Did you notice, perhaps, some other ailments
13 among HVO soldiers, perhaps some skin disease or
15 A. Well, no.
16 Q. Mrs. Cosic, if I ask you now to compare the
17 appearance of HVO soldiers and the appearance of Kaonik
18 patients, what would you say? Who left a better
19 impression on you, HVO soldiers or patients from
21 A. Well, I think there was a difference. I
22 mean, these did not look so bad as those who came like
23 that, dirty. These were -- did not look like that,
24 those who came. I did not have the impression that
25 they were so dirty and unshaven. Perhaps somebody here
1 and there, a little bit, but not too much. I did not
2 notice that personally.
3 Q. Mrs. Cosic, let us clarify it for the
4 record. When you say; "these were not too dirty and
5 too unkempt that you did not notice it." Whom did you
7 A. I meant those who came from the prison.
8 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Cosic, you said that in the
9 waiting room of the health centre patients from Kaonik
10 and other patients, civilian patients, or HVO soldiers,
11 found themselves together in the waiting room at
12 times. Did ever any incidents happen in -- on such
14 A. Well, I could not tell you anything
15 particular, as far as I can remember. I remember that
16 we took note of that, that we took care to avoid it,
17 because there were people wounded and discontent, with
18 a grudge against the situation, and we took care of
19 that. And we tried to remove them so as to avoid it.
20 Q. Mrs. Cosic, when you say that people were not
21 happy about the situation, discontent with the
22 situation, who did they bear the grudge against? A
23 particular -- I mean the Croat population.
24 A. Well, I cannot really say. I cannot say
25 exactly, you know, the situation.
1 Q. Mrs. Cosic, only a few questions more. If I
2 remember it correctly, you said that you lived in the
3 Village of Skradno, you used to live there in the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How long have you been living in the village
7 of Skradno?
8 A. Eighteen years.
9 Q. Do you perhaps remember if during the
10 conflict there was any fighting in the Village of
12 A. No. No. In the village itself there was no
14 Q. Did you hear that, perhaps, fire was
15 exchanged somewhere outside of the village, around the
17 A. Oh, yes, yes. Yes. But I could not say
18 where it was, because it came from outside, from above,
19 from a certain height. And I could not, because I had
20 -- I was under labour obligations and I could not
21 really determine the situation. But one could hear the
23 Q. I see. Mrs. Cosic, I will show you now an
24 air photograph, and I will -- and I shall ask you to
25 comment upon it. Meanwhile, I have to ask Mr. Usher to
2 THE REGISTRAR: This will be document D20.
3 MR. MIKULICIC:
4 Q. Mrs. Cosic, will you please look carefully at
5 this photograph and tell us if you can recognise the
6 aerial photograph from the air?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Mrs. Cosic, if I told you now that this was
9 part of the Municipality of Busovaca, which also
10 includes your village, could you look at your village
11 on this photograph. Take a good look.
12 A. No. No. I really can't see my way around.
13 Q. Thank you very much. We do not need this
14 photograph any more.
15 Your Lordships, we have no more questions for
16 the witness for the Defence, Mrs. Cosic. We have no
17 more questions.
18 Sorry, we should only like to tender this
19 document, this air photograph, as evidence, as D20.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No objection,
21 Mr. Meddegoda?
22 MR. MEDDEGODA: I have no objection, Your
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well. Madam Cosic,
25 you have just answered questions put to you by
1 Mr. Mikulicic, and now you will answer questions put to
2 you by Mr. Meddegoda, who may put to you -- is that
3 true, Mr. Meddegoda, do you have any questions for this
5 MR. MEDDEGODA: A few questions, Your
6 Honours. May I proceed, Your Honours?
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Meddegoda
9 Q. Mrs. Cosic -- good afternoon, Mrs. Cosic.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. I will put to you a few questions on behalf
12 of the Prosecution. You testified a while ago and said
13 that when you went to Kaonik Prison, on the one and
14 only occasion, you spent about five minutes in the
15 prison premises; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you remember when you went to the
18 Kaonik Prison, the day on which you went to the prison?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. Do you have at least a recollection of the
21 month in which you went to the prison?
22 A. It was a long time ago. All I can say is
23 that it could have been in February or perhaps March.
24 It was rather cold.
25 Q. And it was, as you testified yesterday, it
1 was in the night that you made this visit?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You also testified yesterday that the purpose
4 of the visit, and you also testified this morning, this
5 afternoon, that the purpose of the visit was to
6 administer the injection to a detainee at Kaonik
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, could you please tell me the
10 circumstances which necessitated you to go to the
11 prison? How did you happen to go to the prison?
12 A. Prior to that, Zlatko came with that one man
13 from the prison, and the doctor examined him and they
14 consulted each other. The doctor said his opinion, and
15 I, or perhaps my colleague, I cannot remember, filed
16 that -- I cannot remember exactly, because we
17 alternated, but the doctor said, in my presence, he
18 told Zlatko that, if necessary, he could call and that
19 he would send a nurse to administer the appropriate
21 Q. And what time was it when Zlatko -- when
22 Mr. Aleksovski came to the health centre?
23 A. They talked over the telephone.
24 Q. Are you now saying that Mr. Aleksovski did
25 not come to the health centre but spoke over the
2 A. Oh, no. The first time, the first time they
3 agreed that, if need be, the doctor would again send a
4 nurse, and then they spoke on the phone, that he was
5 bad, and that the therapy prescribed by the doctor
6 should continue.
7 Q. What time was it when Mr. Aleksovski first
8 came to the health centre that day?
9 A. In the afternoon. I do not know the exact
10 hour, but in the afternoon always.
11 Q. Do you remember who examined the patient who
12 was brought by Mr. Aleksovski?
13 A. Dr. Stipac, Zvonmir Stipac.
14 Q. And was there a record made of such
15 observation, of the fact that Dr. Zvonmir Stipac
16 examined that patient?
17 A. Were put down on paper, all that came. We
18 filled forms and everything, as we always do.
19 Q. Were you present when the Dr. Stipac examined
20 the patient?
21 A. Not in the presence of examination. I filed
23 Q. But you were not present at the time of
24 examination. You only filed the -- whatever note was
25 made by Dr. Stipac?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you did not know what transpired between
3 Dr. Stipac and the patient who was brought from Kaonik?
4 A. Why no.
5 Q. Sorry, I do not think the -- thank you. And
6 how long thereafter did you get the telephone call from
7 the accused?
8 A. I could not give you the exact time, but as
9 far as I can remember, not long -- not much later.
10 Perhaps an hour or two.
11 Q. An hour, a few minutes?
12 A. No, not minutes. Not minutes. One hour,
13 perhaps two. It was a long time ago.
14 Q. And whom did Mr. Aleksovski speak over the
16 A. One of the medical workers. I don't know who
17 answered the telephone, but this was then conveyed to
18 the doctor. That is the kind of co-operation with us.
19 I cannot really know who answered the telephone.
20 Q. If you did not know who answered the
21 telephone, how is it that you happened to go to the
22 Kaonik prison that evening?
23 A. But the doctor told me.
24 Q. Which doctor?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who is the doctor who told you that?
2 A. Dr. Zvonmir Stipac.
3 Q. And did you know who the patient was you were
4 going to see?
5 A. No. Not the name.
6 Q. And where in the Kaonik prison did you
7 examine this patient?
8 A. I did not examine him, I only administered
9 the injection.
10 Q. Where in Kaonik prison did you administer the
11 injection to the patient?
12 A. Excuse me?
13 Q. Where in Kaonik prison did you administer the
14 injection to this patient?
15 A. In the prison, in a room. That room is --
16 there was a passage, it was night-time, I do not
17 remember properly. I did not stay long. To the left
18 there was a room. There were guards and that man whom
19 I had seen before in the health centre, that same man.
20 Q. So you did not know the name of the patient
21 to whom you went to administer the injection?
22 A. Now I do not remember that name. And that
23 doctor wrote out a prescription and on the basis of the
24 prescription, I wrote it down and asked his name,
1 Q. Do you know whether such prescription is
2 available in the health centre records now?
3 A. I think so, yes, but I don't remember the
5 Q. And that was the only occasion on which you
6 were sent to Kaonik camp?
7 A. Yes
8 Q. Witness, you testified yesterday about an
9 incident in Kacuni in January of 1993?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. And you said that in that incident, a person
12 by the name of Ivica Petrovic got killed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you know Ivica Petrovic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How did you know him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How did you know him?
19 A. I think that he was born in the same village
20 as my mother.
21 Q. And do you know what the city was?
22 A. I think he was a Croat, but I didn't know his
24 Q. He was also a police officer at the time?
25 A. I don't know that. Before, before the
1 conflict, I knew of Ivica. As for his obligations, I
2 didn't know anything about that.
3 Q. Witness, you also said that in the health
4 centre, you and your colleagues treated persons from
5 all ethnic background, Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks
6 without any kind of discrimination or differentiation,
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know whether -- the ethnicities of the
10 persons who were brought from Kaonik camp were to be
11 treated at the Busovaca Health Centre?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you know any of them personally, persons
14 who were brought from the camp?
15 A. Only by sight. I didn't know their names.
16 Q. And were there people from your village who
17 were brought, or from the neighbouring villages, whom
18 you knew by sight?
19 A. While I was working, no.
20 Q. Do you know whether there were any Serbs
21 detained in the Kaonik camp?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know whether there were any Croats
24 detained in the Kaonik camp?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And do you know whether there were all
2 exclusively Bosniaks who were detained in the Kaonik
4 A. No.
5 Q. Witness, also yesterday in the course of your
6 testimony, you said that most detainees from Kaonik who
7 were brought to the health centre complained mostly of
8 stomach disorders as a rule.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know whether detainees with injuries
11 like contusions or abrasions or bruises or even
12 lacerations were brought to the health centre for
13 treatment from the Kaonik camp?
14 A. No, no, no.
15 Q. You do not know that or you say that there
16 were such prisoners were not brought to the camp?
17 A. No, I mean I don't know that personally.
18 Q. And when prisoners were brought from Kaonik
19 camp to the health centre, you said that they were
20 first brought to the waiting room.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you also said that Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski
23 would then come into the examination room and talk to a
24 doctor or to a nurse saying that he had brought a
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were there occasions on which Mr. Aleksovski
3 spoke to you personally when he brought a detainee from
4 the camp?
5 A. Well, we would only greet each other, that
6 was all.
7 Q. Yes, my question is were there occasions on
8 which Mr. Aleksovski spoke to you personally when he
9 brought prisoners from the camp?
10 A. It was not necessary. He would simply bring
11 in someone. If the intervention was needed, he would
12 wait for the examination to be completed by the
13 doctor. Sometimes I would tell him to wait, to Zlatko,
14 and to the person whom he had brought in. Sometimes,
15 if the doctor was available immediately, he would first
16 talk to the doctor.
17 Q. And do you remember Zlatko talking to the
18 doctor, an instance in which Zlatko Aleksovski spoke to
19 the doctor?
20 A. I do not remember any specific situation,
22 Q. I am asking you whether you remember Zlatko
23 Aleksovski speaking to the doctor upon bringing a
24 patient to the health centre.
25 A. It is not quite clear to me, I don't
1 understand which time period you have in mind.
2 Q. I'll clarify my question. Do you remember
3 seeing Zlatko Aleksovski talking to a doctor whenever
4 he brought a patient or a prisoner from the Kaonik
6 A. Well, yes, I would fill in the form or
7 perhaps I would be working in the adjacent room, the
8 doors would be open. I was perhaps administering some
9 therapy or doing some other kind of work and Zlatko
10 would be speaking to the doctor. He would usually tell
11 him that he had brought in someone and that that person
12 was supposed to be examined and that was all.
13 Q. Would he not say what the person was
14 suffering from or complaining of?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So Zlatko Aleksovski would say what the
17 person was complaining of or suffering from?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what else would he say to the doctor?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. And were such observations, was the medical
22 history so given to the doctor, was it recorded in any
23 of the hospital records?
24 A. Yes, a record was made. We kept records and
25 we still do. Each name of the person brought in would
1 be put down on paper, including therapy that was
2 administered and the code for the diagnosis. There may
3 have been cases where we didn't do everything, but it
4 was customary to put everything on paper.
5 Q. Did you personally maintain such records or
6 make such notes of what Mr. Aleksovski said to the
7 doctor or to the nurses?
8 A. Only the name and the surname of the patient
9 would be put down and the therapy that was
10 recommended. Me and my colleagues, sometimes Zlatko,
11 but we did the same with everybody else.
12 Q. Yes, I understand that, Mrs. Cosic. But the
13 history that was given to the doctor or to you or to
14 the nurses, to the other nurses, was not recorded on
15 the medical record?
16 A. Well, we didn't use medical cards at that
17 time because the services that were rendered were
18 emergencies, so we would simply have forms where we
19 would put down the code of the ailment, therapy that
20 was administered and the name and the surname of the
21 patient at that time.
22 Q. So even on the medical form you would not
23 record that?
24 A. Medical form, we didn't have any medical
25 forms at that time.
1 Q. But you said a while ago there was a medical
2 form on which you recorded the name and the therapy
3 that was administered and record of the ailment, didn't
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And on that medical form, did you not record
7 what was said by Mr. Aleksovski about the patient, what
8 the patient was suffering from or what he was
9 complaining of?
10 A. No, only the code.
11 Q. Did you consider it important to write it
12 down on a medical form, the patient's medical history?
13 A. Well, it's the doctor who does that. I would
14 simply fill in the necessary information.
15 Q. As far as you are aware, was it done by a
16 doctor whenever Mr. Aleksovski narrated the medical
17 history or the causes of complaint?
18 A. The doctor probably thought that it was
19 necessary to put down the code only because the code
20 would indicate the illness in question.
21 Q. Now, Mrs. Cosic, did you speak with any of
22 the detainees whom you treated in the Busovaca Health
24 A. No.
25 Q. You did not consider it important to talk to
1 the patients, to find out what their problems were?
2 A. The doctor would conduct the examination and
3 I would -- I was in charge of administering the
4 appropriate therapy.
5 Q. In the absence of the doctor, have you
6 administered medication to any of the detainees who
7 were brought from the camp?
8 A. In the absence of the doctor, no.
9 MR. MEDDEGODA: I have no further questions,
10 Your Honour, in cross-examination.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulcic, do you have
12 any additional questions?
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, just one
14 question for purpose of clarification.
15 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulcic
16 Q. Ms. Cosic, my learned colleague from the
17 Prosecution asked you how it was that the doctor knew
18 what the health condition of the patient was and what
19 he complained of and you told him that Mr. Aleksovski
20 would tell the doctor what the patient was suffering
21 from, is that correct?
22 A. Mr. Aleksovski would only say that he had
23 brought the patient and then the doctor would usher the
24 patient in the surgery. He would examine the patient.
25 And on the basis of the examination, he would give his
1 diagnosis. And Zlatko Aleksovski would simply announce
2 that the patient was complaining of such and such a
4 Q. I have understood that, thank you. Just one
5 question, Mrs. Cosic. The patient who was brought in,
6 was it possible for him to state his opinion on what he
7 was suffering from?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you see or hear that personally, did you
10 see detainees from Kaonik say that in front of the
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, no further
14 questions from the Defence.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Cosic, I have a
16 question for you.
17 Examination by Judge Rodrigues.
18 Q. Is it true or not that you also attended to
19 HVO soldiers as well as detainees from Kaonik?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It is true, okay. True or false, did Mr.
22 Aleksovski accompany at times some of the patients and
23 that once he appeared in civilian clothing and other
24 times in military clothing, is that true or false?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Therefore, it is true that Mr. Aleksovski
2 would often wear military clothing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Therefore, you could identify the soldiers of
5 the HVO because they were wearing military clothing, is
6 that true or not?
7 A. No, not because of that.
8 Q. How were you able to identify the HVO
9 soldiers? How did you know they were soldiers?
10 A. Well, we didn't exactly knew that they were
11 soldiers. For them, they were all patients.
12 Q. Yes, fine. But soldiers or some soldiers
13 wore military uniforms, did they not?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Therefore my question is as follows: On
16 those occasions when Mr. Aleksovski would wear military
17 uniforms, what was the appearance of these military
18 uniforms in relation to those uniforms worn by HVO
19 soldiers? Were they similar? Were they the same? How
20 would you answer that question? Do you understand the
22 A. I think I do understand your question, I'll
23 try to answer your question. Sometimes he would wear a
24 camouflage uniform, but that uniform was not different
25 from other uniforms that much. I mean this is not
1 something that I was able to observe at the time.
2 Q. I see. Then your answer suggests that the
3 military clothing worn by Mr. Aleksovski were the same
4 as those worn by HVO soldiers, am I correct in my
5 summary or not?
6 A. I didn't notice whether it was the same or
7 different. All I knew was that Aleksovski had a
8 camouflage uniform and sometimes he would also wear
9 civilian clothes. As for the HVO soldiers, I couldn't
10 know that they were HVO soldiers because at that time
11 they were dressed in what they could find. I couldn't
12 notice that and as for Zlatko, I knew what kind of
13 uniform he was wearing.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, Madam Cosic, you
15 have just completed your testimony here before the
16 International Criminal Tribunal. The Chamber thanks
17 you for appearing before it and we wish you a pleasant
18 return trip to your country. Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulcic, shall we
23 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
24 The Defence would like to call witness Zorka
1 (The witness entered court)
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, do you hear
3 me? You will now read the solemn declaration which the
4 court usher has presented to you.
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated, madam.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Are you comfortable,
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you.
11 THE COURT: You will now respond to questions
12 put to you by Mr. Mikulicic, who is seated there.
13 Thank you.
14 WITNESS: ZORKA IVANCEVIC
15 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
16 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Ivancevic. I am
17 defending Mr. Aleksovski in these proceedings, and I
18 have some questions for you. And I should like to ask
19 you to answer them to the best of your recollection.
20 Will you please tell us, for the record, the date of
21 your birth and the place of your birth?
22 A. I was born on the 23rd of February, 1959, in
24 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, what is your ethnic origin?
25 A. I am Croat by origin.
1 Q. Are you a practising believer?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who is your faith?
4 A. Roman Catholic.
5 Q. Have you been living in Busovaca since your
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. You still live there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, could you tell us something
11 about your education?
12 A. I have come from the secondary, from the high
13 medical school in Zenica. I was general stream.
14 Q. Do you remember, perhaps, when it was you
15 came out of school?
16 A. Yes. It was June 1978.
17 Q. And did you get a job immediately after that?
18 A. Well, not immediately, but I did in 1980.
19 Q. And where is it -- where was it?
20 A. In the health centre in Busovaca.
21 Q. And in the meantime, between 1980 to this
22 day, have you held some other job or have you been on
23 the staff of the Busovaca Health Centre all the time?
24 A. All the time on the staff of the Busovaca
25 Health Centre.
1 Q. And what were your duties in the health
2 centre in Busovaca? Were they the same or different?
3 A. Different.
4 Q. Could you perhaps list them?
5 A. Yes. Yes, I can. I was in the occupational
6 medicine department, health care, emergency -- perhaps
7 something else, but I cannot remember.
8 Q. Do you remember, Mrs. Ivancevic, what was the
9 ethnic composition of the staff in the health centre in
10 Busovaca? What ethnicities did the personnel belong to
11 in the former half of 1993, before the conflict?
12 A. Yes, I do remember it. At that time we had
13 about 65 to 70 people on the staff. Of them, I think
14 that half of them were of Muslim origin. Roughly about
15 the same percentage were Croats.
16 Q. Were there some other ethnicities employed in
17 the health centre at Busovaca?
18 A. There were also a couple of Serb employees.
19 Q. You said that there were about -- that the
20 staff comprised some 65 to 70 people. So this was
21 quite a large institution, wasn't it?
22 A. Well, yes.
23 Q. What area did it cover, I mean in terms of
24 the services?
25 A. The area of the Municipality of Busovaca. Do
1 you mean the number of inhabitants, the population?
2 Well, at that time there were about 18.000 people.
3 Q. Tell us, do you remember if the health centre
4 in Busovaca had a department providing hospital
5 treatment, where people could be hospitalised?
6 A. No. No.
7 Q. So, Mrs. Ivancevic, what did you do when a
8 patient required hospitalisation? What hospital did
9 you refer them to?
10 A. We sent the patients to the hospital at Nova
12 Q. What was that time period that you are
13 referring your patients there?
14 A. I mean 1993.
15 Q. And before 1993?
16 A. Before 1993 we referred our patients to the
17 regional hospital in Zenica.
18 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, do you remember if prior to
19 1993, that is before the conflict broke out, if there
20 was a hospital at Nova Bila before that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you tell us why you stopped referring
23 patients to the regional hospital in Zenica in 1993?
24 A. Towards the end of January, 1993, the
25 fighting began. This was called the Muslim-Croat
1 conflict. And at that time the road to Zenica was
2 blocked so that we could not send our patients to the
3 hospital in Zenica.
4 Q. Do you remember, perhaps, when was the last
5 time that you referred a patient to the Zenica
6 hospital? Do you know that?
7 A. I don't remember. I cannot remember exactly.
8 Q. You mentioned the conflict which was in
9 January '93. How was it, that is, what event triggered
10 the beginning of the conflict? Do you know anything
11 about that?
12 A. Yes. On the 24th of January, '93, I was to
13 be on duty at the emergency service as of 1900 hours,
14 and on my way to work a colleague told me that two men
15 had been killed in the locality called Kacuni. And
16 indeed that afternoon, at 3.15, I heard a powerful
17 detonation when I was still at home. And then when I
18 got to my place of work I learned what had happened.
19 So that was my impression. And then, on the 25th of
20 January, '93, a genuine conflict began.
21 Q. Do you remember who were those individuals
22 who were killed in Kacuni?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know their names?
25 A. I know the name of one of them. That was
1 Ivica Petrovic. And the other person was an unknown
2 body. To us all the while it was an unknown person.
3 Q. Where did you know Ivica Petrovic from, since
4 you said you knew his name?
5 A. I knew Ivica Petrovic, I knew him personally,
6 because he lived in Busovaca, so I knew him.
7 Q. You said you lived in Busovaca. How far from
8 the health centre?
9 A. About three kilometres, more or less.
10 Q. And at that time, while the fighting went on
11 in Busovaca, how did you go to there? Was it safe?
12 A. No, it was hazardous. At times I walked, I
13 went on foot, and, well, you know, depended on the
14 situation. Sometimes by car and sometimes on foot,
15 three kilometres.
16 Q. When the conflict began in the Municipality
17 of Busovaca, you said it was towards the end of
18 January, 1993, you said that the road was closed to
19 Zenica. What about other roads? Were they passable?
20 Could one take them to travel?
21 A. As far as I can remember, the Zenica road was
22 blocked. That I am positive. But at that time, I
23 think one could go to Travnik still.
24 Q. What about the supplies at the time? Did you
25 have enough food, medical supplies? Could you please
1 describe the situation, if you remember?
2 A. At that time there was food. We had enough
3 water, electricity, we also had the heating. We had
4 the heating as long as the coal stocks lasted. After
5 that -- as a matter of fact, UNPROFOR made the heating
6 possible. As for the medical supplies, well, you could
7 say we had enough of it.
8 Q. When you say that UNPROFOR enabled, you mean
9 the local UNPROFOR base?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where was it accommodated, as against the
12 health centre?
13 A. You mean how far was it? Well, about,
14 perhaps, 800 to 1.000 metres.
15 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, do you remember, in the --
16 just as the conflict broke out, so on the 24th, the
17 25th of January, '93, do you know what happened to the
18 employed who were of Muslim origin in the health
19 centre? Did you notice something that struck you,
20 perhaps, as odd?
21 A. Not then. Later on, as the whole -- as it
22 began to unfold, yes, it did seem odd that most of
23 them, some who decided to then use their holidays, that
24 is their holidays that were due them since 1992.
25 Somehow it coincided in time with the outbreak of the
2 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, as an inhabitant of Busovaca,
3 did you notice, perhaps, that as the conflict broke out
4 the Muslim population began to leave Busovaca?
5 A. Yes, I did. I did notice that they were
6 leaving to the nearest place, Kacuni, where there is a
7 Muslim majority. It is some five or six kilometres
8 from Busovaca. And I could really see that. It was
9 noticeable. They left by passenger cars, those who had
10 them, and those who lived in adjoining villages, they
11 were also taking their livestock away, which was really
12 odd. Don't you think so?
13 Q. Did you wonder, then, did you ask yourself
14 why were those people leaving?
15 A. Well, I don't really remember how was it. It
16 was strange and -- yes, I felt fear, but I did not
17 really expect that anything else terrible would happen.
18 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, tell us, how was the work
19 organised in the health centre after the outbreak of
20 the conflict? How did you operate?
21 A. I think that my impression was that we
22 organised work quite well. We had enough of the
23 paramedical personnel, so the nurses, we had two or
24 three nurses even on a shift, on a 24 hour shift, and
25 then we'll be free for 48 hours and, if need be, then
1 we would return earlier, that is, we would not use all
2 those 48 hours. So I think we did quite well.
3 Q. Did you have many patients when you were on
5 A. Yes, very many.
6 Q. How many, approximately? Do you remember?
7 A. Well, possibly up to 50 a day.
8 Q. You say up to 50. What period of time do you
9 have in mind? Could you be more specific? What month?
10 A. Yes. Well, yes, I can. It was in the
11 beginning of the conflict, that is the end of January,
12 early February. I think when they brought individuals
13 from the Kaonik facility, that is when we were the
15 Q. You mentioned the Kaonik facility and
16 individuals brought from there. Did you ever visit the
17 Kaonik facility?
18 A. No, never.
19 Q. But do you know what kind of facility was
20 it? Do you know what it was before and what was it at
21 the time of the conflict?
22 A. Why, yes. Before the conflict it was the
23 barracks of the former JNA, and at the time of the
24 conflict it was used -- its purpose was a facility, it
25 was the place to protect people who were threatened. I
1 know that. I never went there, but I know what it was
2 before the war and what was its purpose during the war.
3 Q. Do you know, Mrs. Ivancevic, that it was a
4 military prison in Kaonik?
5 A. No, I didn't. I do not know that.
6 Q. Did you personally, when on duty, come across
7 patients who would be brought to the health centre from
8 the Kaonik facility? Do you remember that?
9 A. You mean the date?
10 Q. No, not the date. You could hardly remember
11 the date. But if you do remember the date, very good.
12 But I mean the period of time.
13 A. The end of January, early February. That was
14 that period of time.
15 Q. As far as you can recollect, how many
16 patients from Kaonik were brought to the health centre
17 in Busovaca?
18 A. I do not really remember how many, but I told
19 you that we were very busy because of those individuals
20 who were brought for medical examination. I think -- I
21 don't know, I cannot exactly -- I cannot remember
22 exactly, but some 30 or thereabouts.
23 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, were you personally ever in
24 the proximity or did you have any contact with those
25 patients from Kaonik?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Could you tell us, if you remember, what
3 complaints did these people have? What did they suffer
4 from, what kind of medical help did they need?
5 A. Yes. As a rule, they -- well, these were
6 individuals, patients -- patients. When I say
7 patients, I mean those individuals who were in the
8 health centre. Usually -- I mean, I knew most of them,
9 and they usually asked for the same kind of help that
10 they came to the centre even before. That is, as a
11 rule, high blood pressure or people who suffered from
12 diabetes, or they came for the medication needed for
13 that particular ailment and so. I mean, simply -- I
14 don't know what to say. But, generally speaking, there
15 were no major diseases. Same kind of illnesses that
16 they suffered before. That is why they came
17 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I'm sorry. Perhaps this
19 would be an appropriate time for a break. After that
20 you may continue. We'll take a 20-minute recess.
21 --- Upon adjourning at 2.49 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 3.12 p.m.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Ivancevic, we are
24 going to continue. Perhaps it would be appropriate to
25 tell you that behind you, you can see yourself, there
1 are individuals, very nice people as you can see.
2 You're doing a very good job for us all in ensuring
3 that we can understand you. They're very nice, aren't
4 they? So please try to imagine that when you're
5 speaking with Mr. Mikulcic that there are these people
6 who are acting on your behalf. So if you could make a
7 pause between the question and the answer, it would be
8 helpful for us so that we can understand you easily.
9 Mr. Mikulcic, you now have the floor.
10 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, let us continue where we
12 stopped before the break. You mentioned that persons
13 from Kaonik would also come as patients to your medical
14 centre and you told us that they usually complained of
15 health problems that they had before they were
16 accommodated in Kaonik. Is it true that they suffered
17 from some chronic diseases?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, who brought these individuals
20 from Konjic to be examined at the health centre?
21 A. The detainees were brought to the health
22 centre as patients by the guards and Mr. Zlatko
24 Q. Do you know Mr. Aleksovski from before the
25 conflict or did you meet him at that time?
1 A. I met him at the health centre in late
2 January, early February.
3 Q. Do you think you would recognise him today?
4 A. Yes, I would.
5 Q. Can you tell us if you can see Mr. Aleksovski
6 in the courtroom?
7 A. Yes, he was the first person I saw when I
8 entered the courtroom.
9 Q. Could you please point in his direction for
10 the record. Can the record please reflect that the
11 witness has pointed to the accused. Mrs. Ivancevic,
12 the patients who were brought from Kaonik to be
13 examined at the centre, were they tied up, did they
14 have handcuffs?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Could you describe for us the procedure that
17 was applied when they were received at the medical
18 centre and what was the follow up of that procedure?
19 A. Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski would usually call us
20 at the health centre and he would usually announce that
21 he had patients for us. These patients, once they are
22 brought to the health centre, would go to the waiting
23 room in the corridor where other patients would also
24 wait to be examined by the doctor. There was one
25 surgery. And patients would be examined by the doctor
1 in that surgery. Only a doctor would be in that
2 surgery and the patient, that is the detainee, would
3 enter his surgery. The examination would take place
4 there and then he would be brought back to the -- he
5 would be brought to the nurse's office. So when they
6 came to our office, they would have the prescription
7 with the therapy that was recommended for that
9 My job as a nurse would be to make a record
10 of his name, of the patient's name, to copy from the
11 prescription form the therapy that was indicated. And
12 after that administrative work was completed, depending
13 on what was written on the prescription, if the patient
14 had to receive an injection, I would then administer
15 the injection. If the therapy involved certain
16 tablets, the patient would have already received the
17 tablets, the pills by the doctor. And I would make a
18 note of that in another book. And that was the end of
19 the examination of the patient at the health centre.
20 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, do you remember if the
21 patients had an opportunity to speak to the doctor
22 themselves, to tell him what they were suffering from?
23 A. Yes, of course. Most often they would be
24 alone with the doctor and they were able to tell him
25 about their problems.
1 Q. Did you personally ever speak to one of the
2 patients from Kaonik?
3 A. No, I did not, except for my part of the
4 job. I mean, I was supposed to ask for his name and
5 proceed with my part of the job.
6 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, the procedure that you have
7 just described, that is the examination of the patients
8 from Kaonik, was the same procedure applied to all
9 other patients at the health centre?
10 A. Yes, of course.
11 Q. Did you have any different treatment for
12 patients coming from Kaonik as opposed to other
14 A. No, we did not.
15 Q. Was there a case when the doctor or nurse
16 refused to provide medical help to patients from
18 A. No, such things never occurred.
19 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, you had the opportunity to
20 see, personally, individuals coming from Kaonik?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you then tell us, could you describe
23 for us how they looked? Could you compare the way they
24 look with other patients that you normally received at
25 the health centre?
1 A. Yes, I can tell you about that. They were
2 not different from other patients, but there was one
3 thing that we could observe. The men, because they
4 were only men, were unshaved. That is the only thing
5 that we could observe. And it was something normal for
6 such people because of the facility they were
7 accommodated in. They were perhaps not as tidy as
9 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, did you provide medical
10 services to HVO soldiers at the medical centre?
11 A. Yes, we did.
12 Q. What did they look like in comparing with the
13 patients from Kaonik?
14 A. Well, they were also untidy. You could see
15 that they were very tired. That was all.
16 Q. How did you know that they were HVO
18 A. They were wearing uniforms with HVO insignia.
19 Q. Would you recognise such insignia if you saw
21 A. Yes, I would.
22 Q. With the assistance of the usher, can the
23 witness be shown Exhibit P-17. Could you please place
24 the exhibit on the ELMO so that we can see it on the
25 screen. Mrs. Ivancevic, you can see two types of
1 insignia here, one that has been marked with No. 1, and
2 the other marked with No. 2. Which of these two signs
3 did you observe on the soldiers that received medical
4 help at your medical centre in Busovaca?
5 A. Well, the soldiers, or patients, rather.
6 Yes, the patients to whom I gave medical help, I
7 noticed that they were wearing the sign marked with No.
9 Q. It's the HVO sign?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Did you ever see any of your patients wearing
12 the insignia marked with No. 1, HV?
13 A. No, never.
14 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, when Mr. Aleksovski came to
15 the health centre, do you remember how he was dressed?
16 A. Sometimes he was wearing a uniform, but very
17 often he was dressed in civilian clothes as well.
18 Q. Do you remember when he was dressed in
19 military uniform whether he was wearing any of these
20 two insignia or maybe some other type of insignia?
21 A. That suit was without insignia. I didn't
22 notice any insignia.
23 Q. Did he have any rank insignia, military rank?
24 A. No, I don't know that.
25 Q. Thank you, we no longer need this exhibit.
1 It can be removed from the ELMO. Mrs. Ivancevic, you
2 mentioned that the procedure for the patients coming
3 from Kaonik was the same as the procedure applied to
4 all other patients at the health centre, is that
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Does that mean you would sometimes have both
8 members of the HVO and patients from Kaonik sitting in
9 the waiting room?
10 A. I don't remember any such occasion, but it
11 could happen, yes.
12 Q. Do you remember whether there was any
13 incident in connection with that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you notice what kind of relationship Mr.
16 Aleksovski or the guard, what kind of relationship they
17 had with the people that were brought from Kaonik?
18 A. Well, the relationship between Mr. Aleksovski
19 and the guards with the patients, individuals from
20 Kaonik, was very correct and humane.
21 Q. Could you please be more specific. What
22 exactly do you mean by that, "correct and humane"?
23 A. Well, they were not restrained in any way,
24 they were treated as all other people who were waiting
25 in the waiting room and I didn't observe anything
1 special, anything different. I didn't see that they
2 were treated differently as opposed to other patients
3 who were in the waiting room. That was my impression.
4 Q. Do you remember, Mrs. Ivancevic, at the time
5 of the events, late January, beginning of February, how
6 the work was organised at the health centre?
7 A. Yes, I do remember. I already told you that
8 we would work for 24 hours, at least we, the nurses.
9 There were 15 or 16 of us. There were fewer
10 physicians. When I came to work, when I would come to
11 work, I would find my colleague, the physician
12 actually, Dr. Bernardica Mioc, I am referring to the
13 24th and 25th of January. After that, I was on the
14 same shift with Dr. Zvonmir Stipac, Dr. Srdjana
15 Markovic, Dr. Nada Petrovic and Dr. Rozika Kordic.
16 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, what was the therapy that was
17 most often prescribed to the patients from Kaonik?
18 A. Well, they usually received therapy for high
19 pressure. And I remember one patient who was on
20 insulin, who took injections for diabetes. Sometimes
21 we would give injections for back pain. Here I am
22 referring to patients suffering from chronic rheumatic
24 Q. You've mentioned rheumatic pain and lumbar
25 pain, what kind of therapy was administered to those
1 patients? Was any are rest indicated or prescribed as
3 A. Well, it depended on how serious the case
4 was. If the patient was in severe pain, Voltarin would
5 usually be prescribed and the patient would have to be
6 spared from work. And usually he was also referred
7 home for treatment.
8 Q. As such kind of therapy, and here I have in
9 mind, rest, home treatment and so on, was such therapy
10 prescribed to all the patients as well, not only
11 individuals coming from Kaonik?
12 A. That therapy was prescribed to all patients
13 who needed it. And even today, a doctor would indicate
14 or prescribe for the patient to be spared from work if
15 his condition requires so.
16 Q. Is it, therefore correct, Mrs. Ivancevic,
17 that therapy, home treatment, rest and so on, is a
18 common therapy today as it was before?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Did you ever notice while you contacted these
21 patients, did you ever notice any bodily injuries,
22 fractures or similar?
23 A. No, not during my shift.
24 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, I think you've already told
25 us that you've never been to Kaonik?
1 A. No, I have never been to Kaonik.
2 Q. Could you tell us and now I am asking you as
3 an inhabitant of Busovaca. How did people dress at
4 that time? Let me be more accurate. Was it common for
5 inhabitants of Busovaca to wear parts of military and
6 parts of civilian clothing, that is mixed things?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why was that, what do you think?
9 A. Well, I think there was a shortage of
10 civilian clothes. So that people used it, that is,
11 they would wear a civilian shirt and trousers and a
12 military jacket to keep warm.
13 Q. Do you perhaps remember shirts that people
14 used to wear, did they, perhaps, have some patches with
15 markings of an army flag or something on the sleeve?
16 Do you remember?
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, you never went to Kaonik, but
19 do you know if the medical personnel from the health
20 centre went to Kaonik?
21 A. I did not go there, but I am positive that a
22 colleague went from Kaonik for fumigation and that she
23 was invited by Mr. Aleksovski.
24 Q. Do you remember if any of patients from
25 Kaonik showed any symptoms of skin disease or lice
1 perhaps or some contagious disease?
2 A. I did not notice, nor did I hear it from my
3 colleagues that there were any such diseases.
4 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, we have no
5 further questions.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Mikulcic.
7 Madam Ivancevic, you have just answered questions put
8 to you by Mr. Mikulcic. Now you will respond to
9 questions put to you by Mr. Meddegoda sitting there, if
10 he has any questions for you.
11 MR. MEDDEGODA: Just a couple of questions,
12 Your Honours, not very many.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Meddegoda
14 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Ivancevic. You have
15 been living in Busovaca since your childhood?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you know, practically, you know most of
18 the inhabitants of Busovaca, either by name or by
20 A. Yes, and my job also made me know all those
22 Q. And you, what would you say that the
23 composition of Busovaca was prior to the conflict
24 between the Croats and the Muslims?
25 A. I already told Mr. Goran, before the war in
1 Busovaca, there were 18.000 people. I do not know
2 exactly, but I think that it was about 50/50.
3 Q. And you have in the course of your work at
4 the health centre, treated patients, detainees, who
5 were brought from Kaonik camp to the health centre?
6 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
7 Q. In the course of your work in the health
8 centre, as an employee, as a nurse in the health
9 centre, you say you have treated detainees who were
10 brought from the Kaonik camp?
11 A. Yes, we did.
12 Q. And do you remember about how many patients
13 you may have treated from the Kaonik camp?
14 A. You mean per day?
15 Q. Per day, about how many would you have
16 treated per day?
17 A. I have already said about 30.
18 Q. About 30. And about how many would you have
19 looked at, attended to, out of that 30 during your
20 shift of work?
21 A. I already told how the work was organised in
22 the health centre. All patients, say there are 30 of
23 them, who would go into the examination room, into the
24 surgery. The doctors also had to go into the room
25 where the nurse was, to be filed in the book to be put
1 on record. And then depending on what the prescription
2 said, if it was a medication, they would be, they would
3 be given it immediately with the doctor. Or, if it was
4 therapy by injections, then we would do it in that
6 Q. So in the examination room, it would be a
7 doctor and the detainee from Kaonik who would be in
8 that room?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And no one else would be present in that room
11 during the time of examination, is that right?
12 A. Could be, but not necessarily so. Could be,
13 if that person said that he or she wanted to be alone
14 with the doctor, that was permitted.
15 Q. If he did not want to be alone with the
16 doctor, what would the procedure be?
17 A. Well, if he did not want that, then he could
18 be escorted. I do not mean only official escort. I
19 mean that two patients could enter the doctor's room at
20 the same time, if they wanted to.
21 Q. So there would be more than one patient in
22 the doctor's room at one -- at a given time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And would there be others as well, apart from
25 the patients and the doctor, inside that room?
1 A. There was no need for it.
2 Q. Were there occasions on which Mr. Aleksovski
3 would be present inside that room?
4 A. I do not know that. I don't remember.
5 Q. Is it that you don't remember, or is it that
6 you do not know that?
7 A. I do not remember.
8 Q. And were there occasions on which the guards
9 who escorted the detainees would be in the room with
10 the doctor and the patient?
11 A. I have already said that they could be, but
12 need not have been in.
13 Q. Have you seen guards who accompanied the
14 patient, the detainee, in the same room as the doctor
15 and the patient?
16 A. Normally I do not enter the doctor's
17 surgery. I had another room where I worked. And as
18 for me, yes, guards would come together with the
20 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Ivancevic, you also said in
21 the course of your testimony that the Kaonik -- I
22 withdraw that question, Your Honours.
23 Now, Mrs. Ivancevic, prior to the conflict,
24 you said that the Kaonik facility was used as the
25 former JNA barracks; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you know what it was used as during
3 the conflict?
4 A. During the conflict, I said it already, it
5 was used to accommodate persons of Muslim origin, of
6 Muslim ethnicity.
7 Q. Do you know people who were of Muslim
8 ethnicity who were in the Kaonik facility, either by
9 sight or by personally or by name?
10 A. I did know some of those individuals.
11 Q. And were there people from Busovaca who were
12 detained in that facility?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know whether, apart from the Bosniaks,
15 Muslims who were there, do you know if there were any
16 Serbs who were detained in that facility?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. And do you know whether there were any Croats
19 detained in that facility?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. You also said, Mrs. Ivancevic, after the
22 recess, that it was normal for people of -- normal for
23 inhabitants in Busovaca to be dressed in military
24 uniform, sometimes in military trousers and sometimes
25 in military jackets and shirts.
1 A. Yes. Yes, I did say that.
2 Q. Did you on any occasion, were you dressed in
3 military uniform and military trousers or in military
4 jacket? Did any of your colleagues in the Busovaca
5 Health Centre wear military uniform, trouser or
6 military jacket during this time?
7 A. No, I did not, nor did my colleagues.
8 Q. Okay. You also said, Mrs. Ivancevic, that
9 most of the witnesses (sic) who were brought from the
10 Kaonik facility had complaints of high blood pressure
11 and diabetes, and that they had no major diseases in
12 that way?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you speak to any of those detainees
16 A. Only as much as was needed, as much as I
17 needed to, because of my job.
18 Q. And what conversations did you have with any
19 of the detainees? Do you remember any conversation you
20 had with any of the detainees whom you treated?
21 A. Who could remember after all those years? I
22 really can't remember.
23 Q. But you do remember that some of them only
24 had complaints of high blood pressure and diabetes?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And do you know whether there were patients
2 who were brought to Kaonik who suffered from bruises or
3 contusions, abrasions or lacerations, of that sort, or
4 an injury of that sort?
5 A. I did not see that.
6 Q. And do you also know that patients suffering
7 from contusions and bruises and abrasions were brought
8 to the Busovaca Health Centre from the Kaonik facility
9 in the month of April and May of 1993?
10 A. I do not know about such individuals, and I
11 said that I did not see them.
12 MR. MEDDEGODA: I have no further questions,
13 Your Honours, on cross-examination.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have
15 any additional questions?
16 MR. MIKULICIC: Your lordships, if I may, one
17 question only.
18 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
19 Q. Mrs. Ivancevic, my learned friend from the
20 Prosecution asked you if you or somebody else, that is
21 another colleague of yours from the health centre, wore
22 the military uniform, and you said they did not. Is
23 that true?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Tell me, what was your uniform and your
1 colleague's uniform?
2 A. My uniform was the nurse's uniform, the same
3 as it is today.
4 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. I have no more
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Ivancevic, I have one
7 question for you.
8 Examined by Judge Rodrigues
9 Q. You stated that you knew the people,
10 neighbours, in Busovaca who were in Kaonik. Do you
11 know why these persons were imprisoned?
12 A. I do not know that.
13 Q. But you knew them?
14 A. I said I did, but I did not know why they
15 were accommodated there. That was not part of my job.
16 It wasn't up to me to question them about it.
17 Q. Was there any type of criminal act that was
18 carried out that explained why all these people were
19 imprisoned in your town?
20 A. Again, I don't know. I wasn't interested in
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I see. Well, Madam,
23 Ivancevic, you have just completed your testimony here
24 before the International Criminal Tribunal. We thank
25 you for appearing and we wish you a pleasant return
1 trip to your country. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, now we have
5 the benefit of Mr. Niemann joining us here in the
6 courtroom. Shall we continue?
7 MR. NIEMANN: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I
8 wasn't available earlier. I was in another matter.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No problem. We stated
10 beforehand that you were here in spirit. Now you are
11 also here in body.
12 Mr. Mikulicic, you have the floor.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I
14 should like to say good afternoon to my learned friend,
15 Mr. Niemann, and say that I am happy to see him here
16 again. We should like to call our next witness, whose
17 name is Ms. Zorka Ljubos.
18 (The witness entered court)
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon, Madam. Do
20 you hear me? I realise that you speak French well.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. No, a little.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well. You are now
23 going to read the solemn declaration, which the court
24 usher will hand to you.
25 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Please be seated, Madam. I
4 would like to inform you that behind you there are
5 persons who ensure that we can understand you in your
6 language. They carry on the interpretation. And so
7 please take into account the fact that between yourself
8 and Mr. Mikulicic, who is sitting there, who will be
9 asking you questions, that there are all these
10 individuals, and so I ask that you speak slowly, with
11 pauses. Thank you. Is that possible for you?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You feel comfortable? Very
14 well. Now, you will now respond to questions put to I
15 by Mr. Mikulicic. Thank you. Mr. Mikulicic, you have
16 the floor.
17 WITNESS: ZORKA LJUBOS
18 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
19 Q. Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Good afternoon, Mrs. Ljubos.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. I am representing Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski in
23 this case, and I should like to ask you some
24 questions. So please answer them to the best of your
1 A. I understand.
2 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, would you tell us when and where
3 were you born?
4 A. On the 5th of August, 1957, in Ravno, the
5 Municipality of Busovaca.
6 Q. And what is your ethnic origin, Mrs. Ljubos?
7 A. I am a Croat.
8 Q. Are you a practising believer?
9 A. Yes, a Roman Catholic.
10 Q. Ms. Ljubos, what about your education?
11 A. I completed the high medical school and the
12 high school for social workers.
13 Q. What stream of the medical school?
14 A. It was the general stream.
15 Q. And when you completed the high medical
16 school of the general stream, did you get a job
17 immediately or did you continue with your education?
18 A. After the completion of my secondary
19 education, I proceeded to study -- I enrolled in
20 medicine, the study of medicine in Sarajevo, but I
21 dropped out, and in 1977 I got a job as a nurse.
22 Q. So this was your first job?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you remember where that was?
25 A. I do. It was the health centre in Travnik,
1 hospital in Travnik.
2 Q. And how long were you there?
3 A. In the Travnik hospital I stayed about four
4 months and a half.
5 Q. And then?
6 A. And then I got a job with the health centre
7 in Busovaca.
8 Q. Are you still with the health centre in
9 Busovaca or not any longer?
10 A. Since 1994, that is September '94, I have
11 been working in the Municipality of Busovaca.
12 Q. Which means that since -- between 1997 to '94
13 you were with the health centre in Busovaca?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. And what was your job?
16 A. In the health centre in Busovaca?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. In the health centre in Busovaca I moved
19 around all the departments that existed in peacetime.
20 Q. And what was the staff of the health centre
21 prior to 1993, prior to the conflict? Do you remember,
23 A. As regards the nurses, I think we were 17, I
24 think, but I cannot be positive about it. And
25 doctors. Doctors, before the war, there were some four
1 or five, including also dentists.
2 Q. Ms. Ljubos, what was roughly the ethnic
3 composition of the staff of the health centre? Do you
5 A. Well, I couldn't give you the ratios, but it
6 was a mixed ethnic composition. There were Croats and
7 Muslims and Serbs.
8 Q. At the time when you were with the health
9 centre in Busovaca, was it possible to hospitalise
11 A. In the health centre at Busovaca there were
12 no conditions for the hospitalisation of patients. We
13 had no hospital beds. And the institution -- as an
14 institution was not envisaged to provide
15 hospitalisation by statute.
16 Q. And do you know, if a patient needed to be
17 hospitalised, what did you do then?
18 A. If the conditions, that is the illness, the
19 ailment was such that a patient needed hospitalisation,
20 then we frequently covered this need through homecare.
21 We called that kind of treatment home treatment.
22 Q. Ms. Ljubos, you mentioned dentistry as one of
23 the activities of the health centre of Busovaca.
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Could you tell us how long did the health
1 centre extend this kind of medical care?
2 A. Under normal conditions, the dentistry was a
3 regular aspect of the activity, until the bombing, that
4 is the shelling, and that was 1992. That was in
5 Travnik. But since the health centre was hit then and
6 damaged, the dental surgery could not perform as
7 before, so that the dentistry services were reduced,
8 that is, we provided only the emergency dentistry
10 Q. That is, there were no conditions because the
11 building was damaged during shelling, and you could not
12 extend the regular dentist services?
13 A. Quite, quite. That is the extractions or
14 perhaps trephinations, for the prevention, or perhaps
15 prophylactic measures and regular treatment that --
16 that was no longer done.
17 Q. Could you please for us laymen explain what
18 are the extractions and trephinations?
19 A. Well, it means the first aid. It means to
20 open a tooth, and the first aid is simply to alleviate
21 the pain. And tooth extraction means to extract, to
22 pull out the tooth, that is, remove the tooth from the
24 Q. I see. Ms. Ljubos, do you remember the
25 beginning of the conflict in Busovaca?
1 A. Yes, I do. It happened on the 25th of
2 January, 1993.
3 Q. How is it that you remember that day?
4 A. Well, I remember that day because of the
5 sound of sirens that we heard at that moment, which was
6 something new for us at that time. I also remember
7 that day because we started admitting some unusual
8 patients, that is, people who had been wounded. And I
9 also remember that day because of the fear that we all
11 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, are you aware of a facility
12 called Kaonik?
13 A. I am aware of that name, Kaonik, but I've
14 never been there.
15 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, do you know what was the
16 function of that facility before the break-out of the
17 conflict in Busovaca?
18 A. Yes. It was the barracks of the former JNA.
19 Q. And do you know what it was used for after
20 the break-out of the conflict, that is, immediately
21 prior to the outbreak of the conflict?
22 A. I don't know about that.
23 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, after the 25th of January, 1993,
24 you said that there was an increase in the number of
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you tell us more about the patients
3 that you received at that time?
4 A. I can classify them as follows: These
5 patients were brought to us from the Kaonik facility,
6 and we also had members of the Croatian Defence
7 Council, that is the soldiers. And, of course, the
8 third group, the civilians who lived in the area for
9 which the health centre was responsible.
10 Q. If I understand you correctly, that was the
11 first time that you came across individuals that were
12 brought there from Kaonik?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When did that happen?
15 A. Since it was long time ago, I can only tell
16 you that it was at the end of January, beginning of
17 February, 1993.
18 Q. Who brought these individuals, these patients
19 from Kaonik? How did they get to the health centre?
20 A. These patients were brought in a vehicle
21 under the escort of the warden of the facility,
22 Mr. Zlatko. Sometimes they would also be escorted by
23 one or two guards, depending on the number of patients
24 that were brought in.
25 Q. You've mentioned Mr. Zlatko. Do you know
1 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski?
2 A. Do you mean here in the courtroom?
3 Q. Yes. Could you recognise him?
4 A. Yes. Yes, I could.
5 Q. Could you tell us where he is here in the
7 A. He is behind you. He is sitting behind you.
8 MR. MIKULICIC:
9 Can the record please reflect that the
10 witness has pointed to the accused, who is sitting
11 behind the Defence.
12 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, when did you first meet
13 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski?
14 A. As I already told you, I think it was in late
15 January, early February, 1993.
16 Q. Do you remember when Mr. Aleksovski would
17 come to the health centre, how was he dressed?
18 A. Yes, I remember that. Very often he would be
19 casually dressed. It was some kind of a mix of
20 civilian clothes and camouflage trousers, for example.
21 But he would also come in a camouflage suit, which, at
22 that time, was normal type of clothes worn by men.
23 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, I will now show you a photograph
24 with some military insignia. And I would kindly ask
25 you to tell us whether you have seen, whether you saw
1 such type of insignia on the clothes that were worn by
2 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski or, perhaps, some other
4 Could the usher please place the exhibit
5 number P17 on the ELMO.
6 Did you see on Mr. Aleksovski, when he was
7 dressed in military uniform, you said it was a
8 camouflage uniform, or when he would wear only parts of
9 camouflage uniform, did you see any of these patches?
10 A. No, I don't think I saw any of these patches
11 worn by Mr. Zlatko.
12 Q. Did you see any other kind of insignia?
13 A. No, I don't remember any insignia. I think
14 he was casually dressed. I told you that he didn't
15 wear any insignia or rank.
16 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Ljubos, you've mentioned
17 that while providing medical services at the health
18 centre in Busovaca you also extended medical help to
19 the HVO soldiers; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Could you tell us, or, rather, point to the
22 patch. You see two patches on the screen, number one
23 and two. Which one did you notice on the uniforms of
24 the soldiers that received medical help at your centre?
25 A. Yes, it was a patch marked with number 2.
1 This was the patch that was worn by HVO soldiers. But
2 not all of them, because at that time they didn't have
3 enough uniforms or suits.
4 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, as part of your job or as a
5 resident of Busovaca, did you ever come across anyone
6 wearing the patch marked with number 1?
7 A. No, never
8 MR. MIKULICIC: We no longer need this exhibit,
9 Mr. Usher. It can be given back to the registrar.
10 Q. We spoke about patients that were brought
11 either by Mr. Aleksovski or by some other guards from
12 Kaonik to receive medical treatment at your centre.
13 Could you tell us something more about their problems,
14 their complaints?
15 A. As far as I can remember, these problems were
16 connected with their prior ailments, problems with
17 digestion, blood pressure, cardiac myopathy and similar
18 ailments. Sometimes colds, for example.
19 Q. For the record, Mrs. Ljubos, for us laymen
20 could you explain what these ailments are?
21 A. Stomach problems refer to problems with
22 digestion. Cardiac myopathy is a heart condition.
23 Q. How would you describe these ailments? Are
24 we talking about chronic diseases or acute diseases?
25 A. In most of the cases these were chronic
2 Q. Do you remember, Ms. Ljubos, what kind of
3 therapy was prescribed to these individuals?
4 A. The therapy usually depended on how serious
5 the ailment was. Very often it was only parenteral
6 therapy. Sometimes it would be also the therapy by
8 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, for these type of ailments, the
9 ailments that you came across at that time, was your
10 impression that these ailments were more frequent
11 during wartime, that the number of such patients
13 A. I wouldn't say that the number of such
14 patients increased. We were actually surprised to see,
15 during that time, not a single epidemy, not a single
16 infectious disease that was recorded at that time,
17 which is an indicator of a relatively stable medical
18 situation, health situation.
19 Q. Do you mean that at the health centre you
20 never recorded any infectious -- the existence of any
21 infectious disease at the Kaonik facility?
22 A. Yes, you are right.
23 Q. Is it true, Mrs. Ljubos, that as part of your
24 job you had direct contact with patients from Kaonik?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What kind of impression did they leave on
2 you? Did you think they were malnourished?
3 A. No, you couldn't talk about malnutrition. As
4 for my general impression, they were, perhaps,
5 unshaven, unkempt, but at that time it was not
6 something uncommon. Most of the men looked like that.
7 I didn't think that they were malnourished.
8 Q. The patients from Kaonik, according to what
9 you can remember, did they leave an impression which
10 was different from the impression left by other
11 patients seeking help at the medical centre?
12 A. No. Bearing in mind the general
13 circumstances, the prevailing conditions, my impression
14 was the same in both cases.
15 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, did you ever notice or did you
16 ever hear any patients from Kaonik complaining of some
17 bodily injuries, like fractures, blows, bruises,
18 abrasions, and so on?
19 A. Since we worked in shifts, 24 hour shifts,
20 which were followed by 48 hours off duty, I really
21 don't remember that while I was on duty. I don't
22 remember ever seeing, ever noticing, anyone with such
23 type of injuries.
24 Q. Which physicians were on duty on your shift,
25 do you remember?
1 A. Yes, I do. I was with Dr. Stipac, Dr. Mioc,
2 Dr. Petrovic, Dr. Markovic and Dr. Rozica Kordic.
3 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, do you remember how the patients
4 from Kaonik were brought to the health centre?
5 A. Yes, I do. I think, that is I am sure, that
6 they were brought in a vehicle or sometimes in a van.
7 Q. You distinguish between the two, what do you
8 mean by "vehicle"?
9 A. A passenger car. I don't remember the exact
10 type, but it was a grey vehicle, grey metallic
12 Q. At that time, did the medical centre dispose
13 of an ambulance?
14 A. At that time, the medical centre had problems
15 with ambulances. And as far as I can remember, we had
16 only one at that time, only one that was in good
18 Q. The patients who were brought to your centre
19 from Kaonik, were they restrained in any way, were they
21 A. No, never.
22 Q. What was the procedure that was applied when
23 they were treated?
24 A. The procedure was the same as for all other
25 patients. If there were patients waiting in the
1 waiting room, they would also have to wait. If the
2 situation was urgent, then they would simply go to the
3 doctor's surgery. After the examination and after the
4 necessary therapy was prescribed, these patients would
5 go to the nurse's office. And the nurse would then put
6 everything on file, make a record of all the necessary
7 information, including the therapy. And, if necessary,
8 the nurse would also administer the therapy that was
10 Q. If the prescribed therapy involved some
11 medication, how would you go about that? Where did you
12 obtain medication and to whom was it given? I am
13 referring to pills or tablets.
14 A. Well, the medication that was at the medical
15 centre, that we had at the medical centre was given to
16 everyone, everybody who needed such type of therapy.
17 Q. Could you slow down a little bit, please.
18 A. Yes, I will. As I told you, the medication
19 was administered to everyone who needed it, everyone
20 who needed medical help, regardless of their
21 nationality, gender or age.
22 Q. Yes, I am clear about that, maybe you haven't
23 understood my question, so I will rephrase it. How did
24 the medical centre obtain medication?
25 A. The medication came from the reserves that we
1 had. According to the regulations, all medical
2 institutions, including medical centres such as ours,
3 were required to have what we called NEP, it's an
4 abbreviation that refers to reserves in case of war.
5 So I think all these reserves were pulled out so that
6 we could satisfy the needs of all the patients who
7 needed such medication.
8 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that, Mrs. Ljubos,
9 that when the physician would prescribe certain therapy
10 that the patient would immediately receive that
12 A. Well, if the therapy involved pills or
13 tablets, then the patient would be immediately given
14 these pills together with the instructions on how to
15 use the medication. The first dose would usually be
16 administered right there at the health centre and it
17 was to be followed up according to the prescription, to
18 the therapy indicated by the physician.
19 Q. Does that mean that the patients would come
20 for check ups if that was indicated by the physician?
21 A. Yes, that would happen very often, depending
22 on the type of disease. These patients had to come for
23 check ups within, I don't know, five, seven or ten days
24 depending on the case and the disease in question.
25 Q. Do you remember, Mrs. Ljubos, any case
1 involving home treatment, any case where home treatment
2 was prescribed for the patient by the physician?
3 A. Yes, yes, I remember. This is the kind of
4 procedure that we apply today. Very often the
5 physician indicates home treatment as the necessary
6 therapy. Home care, it's a perfectly normal
8 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, as far as you can remember, were
9 patients able or given opportunity to communicate with
10 the physician alone "tete a tete?" I am referring to
11 the patients coming from Kaonik.
12 A. Yes, of course. If several were brought in,
13 then only one would enter the surgery first and
14 complain to the physician and so on. I mean, it was
15 normal procedure. They were able to have direct
16 contact with the physician.
17 Q. During such examination, was the guard or Mr.
18 Aleksovski present there at the surgery?
19 A. Well, it was not obligatory, sometimes they
20 would remain if the waiting room and wait and they
21 would be left without Mr. Aleksovski or without
22 guards. But we also had cases of patients being there
23 alone with the doctor without the presence of the
24 guards or the warden.
25 Q. Could you describe for us, in case you had
1 opportunity to see that, what was the treatment or
2 attitude towards the patients from Kaonik by
3 Mr. Aleksovski or the guards who would bring such
4 patients to the health centre?
5 A. I think I can describe it as a normal
6 attitude, casual attitude. And here, I mean, I am
7 referring to Mr. Aleksovski and other guards as well.
8 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, are you aware of any situation
9 where the doctor or the nurse would refuse to examine
10 or offer medical help to any of the patients from
12 A. I think I can say with pride that such a
13 thing never happened and I am speaking on behalf of my
14 colleagues as well.
15 Q. You've mentioned a while ago, Mrs. Ljubos,
16 that due to shortages of adequate clothing, it was
17 customary for the residents of Busovaca to wear parts
18 of military clothing, is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Did you personally or anyone else at the
21 health centre have to wear parts of military clothing?
22 A. No, no. We wore our white coats.
23 MR. MIKULICIC: This concludes my
24 examination, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I believe this is a good
1 time to take a break before we begin with
2 cross-examination. So, therefore, we should have a
3 fifteen minute recess now.
4 --- Recess taken at 4.23 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.40 p.m.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann or Mr.
7 Meddegoda, you have the floor.
8 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann
10 Q. Mrs. Ljubos, there's a couple of matters I
11 wanted to clear up if I may. From the transcript, it
12 was a bit confusing as the time you were actually at
13 the health centre. And, if I can, I would like to sort
14 that out with you. Is it correct to say that you were
15 employed at the health centre from 1987 to 1994, is
16 that right?
17 A. No, it is not. Since 1977 until 1994, that
18 is September '94.
19 Q. I see. And what happened after 1994, you
20 left there, did you?
21 A. For personal reasons, I had some health
22 problems, so I quit my job. Or, rather, I moved to
23 another organisation, social workers, I also completed
24 school for social workers.
25 Q. I don't want the go into that, I just wanted
1 to establish that you didn't stay there after 1994. I
2 think you said you lived in the Town of Rodna in
4 A. You didn't get me quite well, Ravan,
5 R-a-v-a-n, Busovaca.
6 Q. And was Ravan town where the Croatian people
7 living in and Muslims as well?
8 A. Yes, I was born in Ravan, but I live in the
9 Town of Busovaca.
10 Q. I see. And during 1993 you were living in
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Okay. Now where you live in Busovaca, did
14 you have any friends or neighbours who were Muslim
16 A. My colleagues, neighbours, people I saw
17 daily, among them, there were also some Muslims.
18 Q. And did any of those people go to the Kaonik
19 camp that you can remember?
20 A. I don't think I could remember the individual
21 names, but I saw people that I used to know.
22 Q. No, I don't want you to name them, it's a
23 long time ago. The people that went to the camp that
24 you knew, they were people of good character in the
25 community, were they?
1 A. In principle, my personal view says that all
2 people are good, with some few exceptions.
3 Q. I am not suggesting -- what I am saying to
4 you is that, so far as you're concerned, they weren't
5 criminals or behaved in an antisocial manner, they were
6 just ordinary citizens, just like yourself?
7 A. Were you expecting an answer?
8 Q. Do you agree with that, do you?
9 A. In principle, yes. It's not up to me to
10 really judge anyone how good or how bad he is.
11 Q. But you would know whether someone was an
12 notorious criminal or had a really bad record or
13 something like that, and these people didn't fall into
14 this category? That's the point I am really trying to
16 A. I couldn't know if anyone had a police record
17 or not. But, of course, one knew if somebody was a
18 petty thief or something like that. Something that is
19 common, of course, from daily contact.
20 Q. Do you know why the people that you knew that
21 ended up in Kaonik, why they went there?
22 A. I couldn't answer that question.
23 Q. And what were the circumstances when you
24 first met Mr. Aleksovski, can you remember when you
25 first met him?
1 A. Since I didn't know the gentleman before, as
2 I said, towards the end of January, beginning of
3 February, 1993, I met Mr. Aleksovski in the health
4 centre when he brought patients.
5 Q. And did he actually have a conversation with
6 you or did you just see him there and found out that
7 that was his name?
8 A. Well, those were unofficial, off the record
9 conversations by and large; good afternoon, good
10 afternoon, how are you, how are you. I'd never had any
11 particular contact with him.
12 Q. The prisoners that were brought in from
13 Kaonik, did they -- what were they, what was their --
14 what were they like in their psychological
15 presentation? Were they nervous or did they appear
16 fearful or anything of that nature that you saw?
17 A. To be quite frank, we were all nervous at
18 that time in view of the conditions, nothing
19 particular. We were simply afraid of an uncertainty.
20 We were all slightly fearful, so they were not
21 different from the rest of people around.
22 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulcic, do you have
25 any additional questions.
1 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Lordship, we
2 have no additional questions.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Ljubos, the Chamber
4 has no questions to put to you, so this is the end of
5 your testimony here at the International Tribunal. We
6 would like to thank you for coming and wish you a
7 pleasant return to your country. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulcic.
11 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, we have no more
12 witnesses for today, so that we cannot call any other
13 witness today. Tomorrow we shall continue adducing
14 evidence, so will you please bear that in mind.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Before we end this session,
16 with your permission, in this spirit, and also discrete
17 spirit of the activities of this Chamber, could we know
18 whether or not it will be possible to finish with all
19 of the witnesses tomorrow or not? I believe that our
20 list mentions three witnesses and that will end the
21 list of witnesses for this week. The question that I
22 am asking is whether or not it will be possible to
23 finish the list tomorrow or whether or not we will
24 require to be here again Friday?
25 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, the Defence
1 would like to point out the fact that there are still
2 two witnesses, Mrs. Kata Vidovic and Mr. Jelko
3 Percinlic. We shall be calling them tomorrow. At the
4 moment, I believe that Ms. Kata Vidovic will not take
5 too much time. Mr. Percinlic will be a witness who may
6 take some more time. But I think I believe that, yes,
7 that we could finish tomorrow.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, if we finish
9 tomorrow, very well, otherwise we will be here as well
10 on Friday. In any case, let's make the best of the
11 time we have available to us because the Chamber also
12 has other work it has to do. Nonetheless, we will be
13 here on Friday if necessary. If we can finish with
14 this tomorrow, all the better. For the time being, we
15 have completed today's work and we'll meet again
16 tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. Thank you to you
17 all. Tomorrow, see you tomorrow.
18 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
19 4.55 p.m., to the reconvened on
20 Thursday, the 18th day of June,
21 1998, at 9.00 a.m.