1 Wednesday, 1st July, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The witness entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.28 a.m.
5 (The accused entered court)
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and
7 gentlemen. Good morning to the technical booth and the
8 interpreters. Is everybody ready? Thank you.
9 Today in the courtroom we have Mr. Niko
10 Lukin. I believe that is the case; is that correct?
11 Good morning, sir. Can you hear me? You will read the
12 solemn declaration that will be proffered to you by the
13 usher. Please read it.
14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you. You may be
19 For the moment, you will be answering the
20 questions posed to you by Mr. Mikulicic who is present
21 here. Go ahead, please.
22 Mr. Mikulicic, the floor is yours
23 WITNESS: NIKO LUKIN
24 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
25 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. Good morning,
1 Your Honours. Good morning, colleagues. Good morning,
2 Mr. Lukin.
3 I am attorney Mikulicic, I represent
4 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski together with my colleague,
5 Mr. Joka. I am going to pose you some questions and I
6 would like you to answer them to the best of your
8 Are you comfortable, sir?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mr. Lukin, when were you born?
11 A. I was born on 26 January, 1932.
12 Q. Mr. Lukin, what is your ethnic origin?
13 A. I'm a Croat.
14 Q. Are you religious?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What is your religion, sir?
17 A. Roman Catholic.
18 Q. Mr. Lukin, where do you live?
19 A. I live in the village of Hrasno -- sorry, I
20 was born in the village of Hrasno, and I live in the
21 village of Cetovic (phoen) in the Busovaca
23 Q. Have you spent all your life in the area of
24 the Busovaca municipality?
25 A. Yes, my entire life.
1 Q. Mr. Lukin, where did you go to school?
2 A. I went to the elementary school in the
3 Busovaca municipality, and I continued with my training
4 in Zenica where I also completed my work career.
5 Q. Mr. Lukin, what kind of training did you get
6 in Zenica?
7 A. When I first started working at Zenica steel
8 mill, I was first working at a lower-ranking job, and
9 then through my career, I kept receiving training, so I
10 passed the first stage and I became highly qualified
11 worker and then I later became a foreman and I became a
12 shift chief, and that is the job which I was at on my
14 Q. Where did you work?
15 A. It was the steel mill at Zenica. It was a
16 huge steel mill works employing about 23.000 workers.
17 Q. When did you retire, sir?
18 A. I retired in early 1989.
19 Q. Mr. Lukin, what is the state of your health?
20 A. I have to say that during the war, I had some
21 troubles. My heart is not quite well, my blood
22 pressure is unstable.
23 Q. So you have certain troubles with your heart?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. So are you receiving any medication?
1 A. Yes. I do receive some medication.
2 Q. Mr. Lukin, did you do your military service?
3 A. Yes, I did do my military service in the JNA
4 for two years.
5 Q. So it was two years. Do you recall where it
6 was and when it was?
7 A. Yes, of course. I served in Macedonia
8 between 1952 and 1954.
9 Q. After your compulsory military service, did
10 you receive any military rank?
11 A. No. After I finished with my military
12 service, I took a job, I worked for 40 years, and then
13 I retired.
14 Q. After completing your military service, were
15 you a member of any reserve?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Mr. Lukin, you said that you spent all your
18 life in the Busovaca area, so I would imagine that you
19 know this area quite well?
20 A. I was born there and I spent all my life
22 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you recall early 1993 when, in
23 the Busovaca area, in your hometown, a conflict broke
24 out between the Muslims and the Croats. Do you recall
1 A. Of course I do.
2 Q. Do you recall when these conflicts started?
3 What was the event that marked the beginning of the
4 conflict in the Busovaca area?
5 A. I could not recall the exact date, but I
6 believe it was in early February, somewhere around
7 there, as far as I recall.
8 Q. What happened at that time?
9 A. Bad things happened between ethnic groups.
10 Muslims and Croats came into conflict, and a lot of
11 innocent people suffered. In fact, it was only the
12 innocent people who really came to harm at that time.
13 Q. Mr. Lukin, during those events, what was your
14 role? What did you do at that time? You already told
15 us that you were retired, but did you become involved
16 in these events?
17 A. In 1993, maybe in early March, a home guard
18 detachment was established, and we believed -- we who
19 were retired, we thought that we should get involved,
20 so we became home guards and we were involved in
21 providing security for certain facilities, such as
22 health centres, schools, and such. And then later on,
23 as there were not enough fighters and there were not
24 regular soldiers in the prison -- I don't know how to
25 call that facility -- then we were assigned to those
1 duties, to guard those people.
2 So for a while, I worked there, and during
3 that period, I had an incident, I sustained a head
4 injury, and after this injury, I took a sick leave. I
5 spent several months on this sick leave, and at the end
6 of this sick leave period, I was reassigned to the
7 prison. I had nothing to do with the people there, but
8 I was assigned to a gate through which I would let in
9 vehicles and people who had permits.
10 Q. I understand. Mr. Lukin, let's go back to
11 early March 1993 when you became involved in the home
12 guard or Domobran company in Busovaca. Were you issued
13 a uniform at that time?
14 A. No. The home guards or Domobrans who were
15 there were not issued any uniforms. We were wearing
16 our civilian clothes.
17 Q. How about weapons? Were you issued any
19 A. Well, we were given some weapons. It could
20 have been -- it could have been weapons from World War
21 I. It was old rifles, M-48, so it was very old weapons
22 and we didn't even get any ammunition for it.
23 Q. Mr. Lukin, our conversation is being
24 interpreted into English and French, so I would like to
25 ask you to please talk a bit more slowly.
1 A. Oh, you mean more slowly? No problem.
2 Q. Mr. Lukin, you told us that you were a part
3 of the Domobran company, that you were not issued any
4 uniform, that you were issued some old weapons for
5 which you never had any ammunition, and that you were
6 assigned to secure certain facilities.
7 A. That's right, certain facilities.
8 Q. Mr. Lukin, were you also assigned to Kaonik
10 A. Yes. I was assigned to the Kaonik facility,
11 but it was only one building that we were assigned to.
12 Q. Mr. Lukin, where exactly is your home?
13 A. My home is about 500 metres away from the
15 Q. So in a matter of speaking, we can say that
16 you are the first neighbour to Kaonik?
17 A. That is correct. It is 500 metres away and I
18 could see from my house the gate through which people
19 came in and out.
20 Q. Given that you lived there even before the
21 conflict, can you recall who was using this facility
22 before the war?
23 A. Yes. Before the war, it was the army, it was
24 the JNA which used it, and then in 1991, the army
25 pulled out, and the facility remained there.
1 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you happen to know what was the
2 use of these facilities in Kaonik which was used by the
4 A. Yes. These facilities were full of
5 ammunition, projectiles, and all kinds of weapons, and
6 when the war started, this army -- how shall I call it?
7 -- the JNA, they took everything away that they wanted
8 and the facilities remained somewhat empty.
9 Q. So we could say that this was a depot?
10 A. Yes, you could call them a depot or
11 warehouses, whatever.
12 Q. Do you recall when you first came on duty to
13 Kaonik as a member of the Domobran company for securing
14 the facility?
15 A. Yes. I first came there on 15 April, 1993.
16 That's when I arrived there.
17 Q. You said -- did you say it was in April,
18 because you said that you were mobilised in March.
19 A. Yes, mid-April. On that same month, on 25th
20 April, 1993, that's when I was wounded.
21 Q. Mr. Lukin, what exactly was your duty there?
22 What were you supposed to do?
23 A. Our task of these Domobrans was to provide
24 security for this facility to be of service to these
25 people, to help them go to the toilet, to provide
1 water, heating, et cetera.
2 Q. Was your duty to secure the facility from the
3 outside or were you supposed to be inside?
4 A. No. We were not supposed to go in at all.
5 We were just on the outside to make sure that nobody
6 would approach it or do something there.
7 Q. You mentioned that there were people in
8 there. Who were these people there?
9 A. Those were people from the neighbouring
10 villages, villagers, and they were kept there for their
11 own safety, and they were there for a brief period of
13 Q. Mr. Lukin, you mentioned that these were
14 villagers from the surrounding villages. Can you
15 recall which villages these were from which these
16 people were kept there?
17 A. Of course. These were my neighbours, so to
18 speak. They were villages of Skradno, Loncari, and
20 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you recall whether, in the
21 immediate vicinity of these villages, there was any
22 fighting, any armed conflicts?
23 A. From the areas from which these people came,
24 and they came there for their own security, that's
25 exactly where the fighting took place, in these
1 villages where these -- from where these people were
2 brought and where they were kept for their own
4 Q. Mr. Lukin, how were these people
5 accommodated? Where were they?
6 A. Well, you see, they were accommodated in a
7 building there. It used to be a military building, and
8 then they were put up there.
9 Q. They were there day and night; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you see what were their conditions there,
12 where did they sleep? Did they have any blankets, did
13 they have any stoves?
14 A. They did have blankets. That was provided.
15 Mr. Warden saw to it and then later on some stoves were
16 also put in there so that these premises could be
17 heated. You can't say that the conditions were very
18 good, but it was a wartime situation, so that's what it
20 Q. Mr. Lukin, what were the hygienic conditions
21 for these people? Where did they go to the toilet?
22 A. The toilet was near this building. There was
23 only a short path that separated it from there, and
24 that's where they went to the toilet.
25 Q. Were they able to go to the toilet when they
1 needed to or were there any restrictions there?
2 A. There were no restrictions there. As far as
3 that is concerned, we did everything to accommodate
5 Q. And where did they receive water from?
6 A. You see, there was a water installation there
7 which we used to -- which we used as well, and so they
8 shared that facility with us.
9 Q. So this was municipal water?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So the surrounding villages used this
12 waterworks as well as Kaonik?
13 A. That is correct. The schools, villages, and
14 also the facility where these people were kept.
15 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you recall whether throughout
16 this period of conflict the supply of water was steady
17 or were there any interruptions?
18 A. Well, you see, there were some interruptions
19 because it was an old installation and so there were
20 some breakdowns, so -- but if the breakdowns happened,
21 then they would be repaired, and the supply would be
23 Q. What was the food that these civilians were
25 A. The food was being brought there and we all
1 ate it. Those people who were kept there as well as
2 those people who guarded them shared the food, and the
3 food as such, sometimes it was better, sometimes it was
4 not so good. There were wartime conditions, so
5 sometimes we didn't have enough food stocks to provide
6 good food.
7 Q. How many meals were given every day?
8 A. There were three meals being given every
9 day. After a while, the supplies of food diminished,
10 so we switched to two meals a day.
11 Q. How about the guards, did they also switch to
12 two meals a day?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How was the supply of food and other goods,
15 like fuel, in the Busovaca area at that time? Was it
16 regular or not?
17 A. You couldn't call it regular at all. The
18 whole area was blocked off for almost six months, so
19 you couldn't reach the area on a regular basis.
20 Q. If I understood you correctly, Mr. Lukin, you
21 said that it was blocked. Do you mean Busovaca was?
22 A. Yes, it was blocked.
23 Q. Are you talking about the town of Busovaca or
24 the wider area?
25 A. It was a wider area. It also included Vitez
1 and it included the surrounding areas.
2 Q. Is it true then that the population of this
3 area was surrounded and that the communications between
4 Busovaca and the other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina were
5 cut off?
6 A. The only communication line that was not cut
7 off was Vitez-Busovaca -- between Vitez and Busovaca,
8 but the entire area of Vitez and Busovaca was cut off.
9 Q. Mr. Lukin, you lived all your life in the
10 Busovaca area, and you know this area very well. You
11 probably know the configuration of the terrain there as
12 well. Can you tell me, during these wartime events,
13 was there any location, any spot in the Busovaca area,
14 where there was no fighting, where there was no
15 shooting, and there was no shelling?
16 A. No. Everything in the Busovaca area, all
17 points within the Busovaca area, were within the
18 shooting range, so every village, every spot in the
19 area, was within firing range.
20 Q. Were any shells -- did any shells ever fall
21 on the town of Busovaca?
22 A. You could say that they fell everywhere, that
23 they were falling at all places.
24 Q. How about around your house?
25 A. Of course. And as I said, we were very close
1 to the prison, and a lot of shells fell there, maybe
2 the most. A number of houses were actually damaged.
3 However, luckily, nobody was killed.
4 Q. Do you know whether there were killed and
5 injured people in the town of Busovaca and in the other
6 surrounding areas?
7 A. Yes, there were quite a few.
8 Q. How far was the first defensive lines away
9 from the town of Busovaca and the surrounding villages?
10 A. They were maybe one to 1.5 kilometres away at
11 the most, so that these lines were very close of this
12 area of Busovaca and the surrounding villages.
13 Q. So this situation was similar in Kaonik?
14 A. Yes. Yes, it was.
15 Q. Mr. Lukin, when you came to serve your duty
16 at the Kaonik facility, did you meet Zlatko Aleksovski?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you meet him often or just once or twice?
19 A. Several times. Because I only spent a short
20 time there, so we only met several times. When we
21 arrived as Domobrans, he held a meeting with us, and in
22 this meeting he advised us that we should treat these
23 people decently and fairly, that these people were
24 there on a temporary basis, and while they were there,
25 that they should be treated as well and correct as
1 possible, and even without that, these people were our
2 colleagues from work, we travelled, worked with them
3 for 20 and more years, some of them actually worked in
4 my department, and so we tried to help them while they
5 were in this facility. To some of them, we even
6 brought food, we would bring them cigarettes since they
7 were our colleagues from work, and I thought that this
8 would be part of our conscience and we also felt that
9 this was our duty on a humane basis.
10 Q. I understand. Speaking of Mr. Aleksovski,
11 would you recognise him if you saw him today?
12 A. Of course, I would.
13 Q. Can you recognise him here in this room?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Can you tell us where you see him? Where is
16 he sitting?
17 A. Mr. Aleksovski is sitting over there.
18 MR. MIKULICIC: For the record, the witness
19 showed in the direction of the accused and identified
20 him as Zlatko Aleksovski.
21 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you recall when you first saw
22 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski and when you saw him the next
23 several times, what was he wearing?
24 A. I saw him wearing civilian clothes several
25 times and several times wearing a uniform.
1 Q. What kind of a uniform was it; can you
2 remember that?
3 A. It was some kind of a camouflage uniform
4 without any insignia. Nothing special.
5 Q. Did he have any rank or any other insignia?
6 A. No. No insignia.
7 Q. You mentioned that when you came to provide
8 security for this facility, Mr. Aleksovski pointed out
9 to you that with respect to the civilians which you
10 came to guard at this facility, that you should treat
11 them fairly and humanely?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you follow those instructions?
14 A. Of course. Because it would have been a
15 shame to behave in any other way. As I said, we
16 commuted together for a period of years, we worked
17 together, so it would have been both brutal and
18 inhumane to behave in any other way.
19 Q. Mr. Lukin, did you personally see or hear
20 that these people were mistreated, that these people
21 were beaten, or somebody would inflict any injuries to
23 A. While I was there, no such incidents occurred
24 and nothing of that kind happened.
25 Q. In your opinion, did these people have enough
1 food? Did they have such conditions that in the given
2 wartime circumstances, they could function normally?
3 A. Listen. Given that it was wartime, you
4 couldn't describe the conditions as normal. I'm not
5 sure, though, that they could have been provided with
6 better conditions than there were at that time.
7 Q. You said that you know the Busovaca area. Do
8 you know whether there is another similar facility in
9 the Busovaca area, similar to Kaonik, where these
10 people could have been accommodated?
11 A. No. There was a facility in Draga, but I
12 don't think that these people could have been
13 accommodated there as well as in Kaonik.
14 Q. Mr. Lukin, do you know how these people found
15 themselves in Kaonik? In other words, who brought them
17 A. I was not present when these people were
18 brought there. I just found them there. Who brought
19 them there and how, that, I could not tell you.
20 Q. You mentioned that, according to you, since
21 these people came from the surrounding villages where
22 the fighting had taken place, that they were put up
23 there for their own security; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that is correct, because it was the
25 safest place for them.
1 Q. Do you know, did you see or hear that people
2 from these surrounding villages would come to Kaonik
3 themselves in order to feel safe there?
4 A. There were cases where people would come
5 there because they felt safe there.
6 Q. Do you know any of the people who came on
7 their own free will there, to stay there? Do you know
8 any names?
9 A. No, I could not tell you any names, but I
10 know that there were such people.
11 Q. Do you perhaps know from which village?
12 A. From the village of Skradno.
13 Q. Mr. Lukin, while working there at Kaonik
14 providing security, did you see any people who were
15 there, that they became ill in any way, any kind of
16 health problems, skin problems, or any kind of disease?
17 A. There were no such cases where people needed
18 any medical attention.
19 Q. Mr. Lukin, can you tell us whether the Kaonik
20 facility itself was sometimes under fire, that is,
22 A. Yes, frequently.
23 Q. To your knowledge, did it ever happen that
24 either civilians or anyone who was there at that time
25 was injured from any of these incidents?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And do you know whether any of the guards
3 were injured? You said that you yourself were injured.
4 A. Yes. There were four of us among guards who
5 were injured.
6 Q. So there were four. How were you injured and
7 where did it happen?
8 A. This happened immediately next to the
9 facility where we were on duty. We were right there in
10 order to provide security, and it was evening, it was
11 probably about 8.00 p.m., and we were nearby, and a
12 shell fell on a tree and then I sustained a head
13 injury, and a colleague of mine was injured -- had his
14 genitals injured, and the others were injured in other
15 parts of their body.
16 Q. What happened after your injuries?
17 A. When we were injured, Mr. Aleksovski put us
18 in a car and drove us to the health centre in order to
19 give us medical attention. There, at the health
20 centre, they did what they could, and then what they
21 couldn't, because they couldn't do everything, they
22 took us to the Bila hospital and there they treated us
23 and then released us to our homes.
24 Q. And this is how you finished with your duty
25 in providing security at Kaonik?
1 A. Exactly in that way.
2 Q. Mr. Lukin, can you tell us, while you were in
3 Kaonik, whether people, these civilians from the
4 surrounding villages, that these people were taken out
5 of Kaonik in order to provide some kind of labour?
6 A. Yes. The people who were there were
7 occasionally taken out to perform some tasks. I
8 believe it was trench-digging or something like that.
9 And there were other people who were taken to dig these
10 trenches and dugouts, whatever you call them. Also my
11 brother was taken there, and there were some people of
12 Orthodox religion who were taken there. So whenever
13 there was a need to do such a thing, everybody was
14 taken there.
15 Q. If I understood you correctly, you mentioned
16 people from the area. Now, when you say that, are you
17 referring to the HVO personnel as well?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And they would come and ask that people be
20 taken. So if I understand you correctly, they would
21 come to Kaonik, they would ask for a certain number of
22 people, they would take them out; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Lukin, did you notice, when these people
25 would come back to Kaonik, that they were injured or
1 did you see on them traces of any injuries or any
2 disease or anything?
3 A. No, I saw no such person. I saw them coming
4 back tired but not injured or sick.
5 Q. Mr. Lukin, you mentioned that this labour
6 duty, digging or whatever, other kind of work, was not
7 the sole duty of the people who were there but also
8 people who were outside and who were not involved in
9 the defence.
10 A. As I said, my brother who is retired, also
11 went on that duty.
12 Q. How old is your brother?
13 A. He's two years younger than I am. He was
14 born in 1935, so he is now 63.
15 Q. How about your son?
16 A. He's young. He was born in 1958, he fell
17 ill, he was not able to go to the defence line, so he
18 had work duty and he went to dig on a daily basis. Not
19 only my son, but there were others who did so.
20 Q. Mr. Lukin, how was this organised? Would
21 somebody come for your brother and your son to go out
22 to this work duty?
23 A. Yes, the military police would come and they
24 would take those people there, wherever the work was
25 needed, and after that, they would return them home.
1 Q. Did you talk to your brother and your son on
2 which locations they performed those work duties?
3 Where did they dig?
4 A. Yes, I talked to them. They dug at Strane,
5 Podyele, they dug up at the Kula region. They were
6 several places and they worked there.
7 Q. You mentioned Strane, Kula, Podyele. Were
8 these places near the defence line or were these places
9 away from the defence lines?
10 A. Wherever these people worked, that was always
11 close to these lines.
12 Q. Do you know why they had to work there? What
13 did they do there?
14 A. I don't think we understood each other. Who
15 are you referring to?
16 Q. I'm referring to your brother and your son.
17 A. The military needed these lines fortified so
18 that they would not fall, so that the people down in
19 Kaonik and Busovaca would not be threatened. In other
20 words, in short, that these lines would not fall.
21 Q. I understand. Do you know, Mr. Lukin,
22 whether your brother or your son, on those occasions,
23 would see or whether they told you that some people
24 were injured, killed, or similar during the labour
1 A. I talked to them, but to my knowledge and as
2 far as they told me, they saw no such incidents.
3 Q. Do you know, Mr. Lukin, whether during the
4 labour duty, whether these people, for instance, your
5 son and your brother and others, whether they received
7 A. Well, if they were taken out by night, they
8 did not receive any food at night, but they would
9 receive food in the morning, so that they would be able
10 to work.
11 Q. Do you know why it was necessary to go during
12 the night?
13 A. Well, you know, the lines were targeted, and
14 it could be then seen during the day that people were
15 digging and were in greater danger, and that is why it
16 was decided to do the work duty during the night, in
17 order to reduce the danger to the people who were
18 involved in the digging of trenches.
19 Q. I see. Mr. Lukin, you now live at home, you
20 are retired.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you have any connection with the Domobran
23 company in which you served? Does it still exist?
24 A. No, it has been dissolved.
25 Q. Do you have any connections with any other
1 military unit?
2 A. No.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. Thank you,
4 Mr. Lukin. The Defence has no further questions.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, you have the
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann
8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lukin.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Lukin, I think that the Domobran
11 unit was not actually part of the HVO itself, it was
12 part of the municipal defence forces and, as such, came
13 under the authority of the mayor; is that right, of
15 A. I would not agree with you because the
16 Domobran regiment was not part of the HVO.
17 Q. I think there may have been -- you may have
18 misunderstood me. That was the point I was making.
19 Domobran wasn't part of the HVO, it was part of the --
20 it came under the authority of the municipality --
21 A. No, they were not.
22 Q. It was part of the municipal forces, under
23 the mayor of Busovaca?
24 A. Well, I don't know what the mayor would have
25 to do with that. Well, it was the commander of the
1 regiment who was in charge, and the mayor, to my
2 knowledge, had nothing to do with the Domobran
4 Q. Tell me, what part of the government, if I
5 can call it that, of the regional government, did it
6 report to? It must have been part of some structure,
7 surely. It can't have just went to the commander and
8 stopped there.
9 A. As far as I know, I know that they had their
10 own commander or the person in charge, and that there
11 was somebody else who was in charge, I don't know that.
12 Q. Tell us this: When you joined the Domobran
13 unit, did you go to the local municipal building in
14 Busovaca or how was it that you became part of it? How
15 did you manage to join up in the Domobran?
16 A. In order to join the Domobrans, we were
17 invited one day, all of us who were expected to
18 contribute, in case the security was threatened, the
19 security of the people, and it was then decided so, and
20 we were then deployed to serve in the way that I have
21 already described.
22 Q. Now tell me, who invited you and where did
23 you go when you received the invitation?
24 A. When I was invited, I went to a local school
25 where we received our tasks to secure the facilities
1 and the school.
2 Q. Well, when you went to the local school, who
3 addressed you? Who spoke to you there?
4 A. When I went to the school, I talked to our
5 commander who was in charge of the Domobrans.
6 Q. Now, did you receive notice to go to the
7 school by some written form of notice?
8 A. Yes, yes. I received a written notice, not
9 only myself, but all the others, and we were invited to
10 come and be deployed where the need arose.
11 Q. And the written piece of paper that you
12 received, did it have any stamps or markers or it to
13 indicate where it had come from?
14 A. Well, there was a seal, but I did not attach
15 any importance to it, what kind of a seal or a stamp it
16 was and what was written on it.
17 Q. I take it it wasn't the seal of the HVO.
18 That you seem sure of.
19 A. Well, it shouldn't have been the HVO because
20 it was a separate role of the Domobran regiment.
21 Q. When you were in the camp, did you know a
22 guard that had the name, I think it's a nickname of
23 Pisar, P-I-S-A-R?
24 A. No, I don't know any person by that name.
25 Q. When you went to the Kaonik facility, to the
1 prison, it was your duty, was it not, to prevent people
2 from coming into the prison as well as to prevent
3 people from escaping from the prison?
4 A. Well, you could say so, to prevent people
5 from entering and from getting out in order to prevent
6 them from being harassed or exposed to any danger.
7 Q. During the time that you were there, were you
8 successful in keeping people in the prison; in other
9 words, did anyone escape from the prison when you were
10 there, at the time you were there?
11 A. No, nobody escaped, but I can also tell you
12 that I was there for a short time, just ten days.
13 Q. Yes, well, we can only talk about that time.
14 And during the same period of time, were you successful
15 in keeping people out who were not wanted or who
16 weren't permitted to go into the prison?
17 A. Well, there was no need to prevent anyone
18 because there were no attempts of such kind, that
19 somebody would reach those people and do them any harm.
20 Q. Now, I take it that the -- it wasn't terribly
21 difficult or it mustn't have been thought to have been
22 terribly difficult to keep people out or to keep people
23 in, if necessary, because you had an old weapon and no
24 ammunition which wouldn't have been very effective, I
25 take it, if you had come to a confrontation?
1 A. The weapons should not have been there as far
2 as the fear was concerned that somebody could harm
3 them, but there was -- I mean, the threat or coming to
4 any danger was not at question at all. No such
5 situation could have happened.
6 Q. So far as you know, there was no threat to
7 the prisoners from the outside, at least during the
8 period of time that you were there?
9 A. No, no, no such threat existed as far as
10 those people were concerned.
11 Q. You spoke of having a system, I think, of
12 permits for people to come into the prison. Can you
13 tell me about that? What were these permits? Were
14 they in written form?
15 A. Well, they were not in written forms, but
16 people would come of their own free volition because
17 they believed it was the securest place for them to be.
18 Q. I'm not talking about civilians, I'm not
19 talking about Muslim civilian people, I'm talking about
20 other people that would come to the gate in order to
21 come into the prison. I think you said in your
22 evidence that they would have permits.
23 A. Yes. Yes, that was when I was not in charge
24 of security but when I was at the gate, then people
25 would arrive with some sort of permits, and on the
1 basis of those permits and the permit (sic) that was
2 given of the head foreman of the shift, we could allow
3 them to get in.
4 Q. So the permit was issued by somebody in the
5 prison itself?
6 A. No, no. People would come from the outside;
7 for instance, the Red Cross people, they would come to
8 the gate and then consult with the people at the gate,
9 and with the approval of the warden, of his assistants,
10 and they were allowed to go and visit the prison.
11 Q. So it wasn't always in written form, it was
12 sometimes the warden saying, "Yes, that person can come
14 A. Well, if they were already there, I mean, if
15 they worked there regularly, they didn't need written
17 Q. No, I'm talking of people who weren't regular
18 guards in the prison, I'm talking of people who weren't
19 regular guards. In those cases, are you saying to me
20 that the permit for them to enter was a written
21 document that was signed by Mr. Aleksovski, or was it
22 sometimes a case of him simply saying, "Yes, those
23 persons can come in"?
24 A. Yes, they would talk over the telephone, and
25 after his -- after the approval, the person would be
1 let in to enter the facility up there.
2 Q. Now, was it always Mr. Aleksovski who had to
3 give approval, or was there somebody else authorised to
4 approve a person's entry into the facility?
5 A. Well, you know, sometimes Mr. Aleksovski
6 would not be there, he had his aides, and the persons
7 who were in charge of shifts, shift leaders, and they
8 would give oral approval that someone should be let in
9 up in the prison area.
10 Q. Do you remember ever an occasion happening
11 when Mr. Aleksovski said to you, "No, that person is
12 not to come in?" Do you ever remember that happening
13 at all at any stage that you were there?
14 A. No, I don't remember anything like that
15 happening, and there were no such cases.
16 Q. I take it, though, however, if Mr. Aleksovski
17 had said to you, "No, that person's not to come in,"
18 you would have then refused entry for that person to
19 come through. That would have been part of your job.
20 A. Yes, certainly, yes. It would be so.
21 Q. When was it that you said that you first came
22 to the camp.
23 A. I said that I arrived there to the camp on
24 the 15th of April, 1993.
25 Q. And I think you said in your evidence that
1 sometime after you arrived, that the stoves were
2 installed in order for the people to keep warm. Do you
3 know how long after it was that you arrived that these
4 stoves were installed?
5 A. When I arrived there, the stoves were already
6 there. They were already installed in the facilities.
7 Q. So you didn't see them actually installed?
8 A. No, because when I got there, they were
9 already there. They were already installed.
10 Q. Now, you spoke of Muslim civilian prisoners
11 going to use the toilet facilities. I take it these
12 were the Muslim civilian prisoners who were in the
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You would guard them as they would use the
16 toilet, I take it?
17 A. Well, we were beside them while they were
18 completing their -- while they were going to the WC, we
19 would be there, and then they would be returned to the
21 Q. And when you actually escorted them to the
22 toilet and back again, you would be armed, you'd have
23 whatever arms that you had, even though you might not
24 have had any ammunition --
25 A. Yes, we had some arms that I already
1 mentioned, you know, the arms from World War I and that
2 we had no ammunition for those arms.
3 Q. Did you ever get any ammunition for these
5 A. After some time, we did receive a few
6 bullets, but it was a very, very few.
7 Q. I just want to ask you some questions about
8 the villages surrounding the area of Kaonik that you
9 know about anyway.
10 I take it that in those sort of villages that
11 surround the Kaonik facility, they're not all supplied
12 with running water through a main system of water, are
13 they? I take it a lot of the villages have wells.
14 A. Well, some did not. It is true. For
15 instance, the village of Skradno had water supply while
16 Strane and Loncari were not part of the municipal water
17 supply system.
18 Q. In those cases they would have had either a
19 village well or a well attached to the houses, the
20 individual houses?
21 A. Well, you know, the people who were there,
22 they took water from the same water supply system that
23 we had, the people who lived there, and they used the
24 same water, the people who were accommodated in these
25 facilities. But people who lived up there in the
1 villages, they had their own wells.
2 Q. And, of course, people who lived near the
3 Lasva River would have had access to those water
4 purposes as well, wouldn't they?
5 A. You know, the Lasva River, the water there is
6 not potable, so you can use it to wash your clothes and
7 things like that, but not to drink.
8 Q. And also in these villages, people would have
9 had animals, like cows and chicks and hens and things
10 of that nature, that would be very typical in the
11 surrounding villages?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they would have had orchards --
14 A. Well, you know, people from those villages
15 had livestock, they had cows and sheep and hens, and
16 all sorts of livestock, and we, as neighbours, did take
17 care about their livestock while they were away, and
18 there were many such instances, and I was one of those
19 who took care about the livestock of one of my
20 neighbours until the situation normalised, when the
21 armed conflict stopped.
22 Q. And this neighbour who you looked after the
23 livestock for was a Muslim neighbour?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I take it also that people in these villages
1 surrounding this area had little vegetable gardens as
2 well which they would plant food in?
3 A. Yes, they had.
4 Q. Yet I think you spoke in your evidence about
5 there being a time when there was a great shortage of
7 A. Yes, there was a time with great shortages of
9 Q. And this was a shortage of food in the Kaonik
10 prison and with the army and feeding the soldiers,
11 wasn't it?
12 A. Well, no, nobody had at that time, and the
13 people who were accommodated there, the army and
14 anybody else, because we all had small rations because
15 the area was blocked and it was impossible to ensure
16 food supplies that would be sufficient to feed the
17 civilians, the army, and the rest of the people there.
18 Q. But when you went home to your house, which I
19 understand was nearby, you would have had livestock
20 and --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- you would have had a vegetable garden?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you may not have been able to get all of
25 the food you wanted, but you had, I take it, sufficient
1 food at your home?
2 A. Well, at one time, yes, but there was a time
3 when that was not true because there was a time of
4 shortage, and I did take some food from my own family
5 supplies to bring it to someone -- some food to my
6 friends, if I may call them so, and we shared the
7 little food that we had.
8 Q. So, in fact, you had sufficient food at home
9 to be able to actually bring food to the prison because
10 of the official government supply of food was in short
12 A. Well, I said that we did not have enough food
13 and nobody else had, for that matter. But as far as
14 the humane relationship is concerned, people realised
15 that those who had food should bring it to those who
16 hadn't, so that's how we shared the little food that we
18 Q. And the people that didn't have it were the
19 people in the prison?
20 A. Well, all of us did not have enough food. I
21 said so. And while we were in prison, everybody had
22 the same rations.
23 Q. Now, these good people that were in prison,
24 these Muslim neighbours of yours, they weren't there
25 because they were vicious criminals or anything of that
1 nature, were they? They were good people.
2 A. Well, you could say so, yes, but because of
3 the circumstances, the people had to be brought there
4 for their own security and for a short period of time.
5 Q. They didn't come there voluntarily, though.
6 You know that, don't you? It's not as though the whole
7 lot of them just --
8 A. I don't. I don't know. I can't tell you
9 because I said that I came later when they were already
10 there. Whether they came there of their own free will
11 or whether they were brought there, I can't tell you.
12 Q. Well, would it surprise you if I told you
13 that there's been evidence in these proceedings that
14 these people were brought there by the military police
15 under force?
16 A. I'm not familiar with that so I cannot talk
17 to that.
18 Q. I take it that the Croatian people in these
19 surrounding villages, they stayed in their villages,
20 did they, during the course of the war, those who
21 weren't engaged in fighting?
22 A. Some villagers did and some villagers did
23 not, and there were Croats who were expelled from
24 certain villages too.
25 Q. Yes, yes. I understand that. The Croats
1 that were expelled from certain villages, they went as
2 refugees to other Croatian villages, did they?
3 A. They went to different places. If they had
4 an opportunity, they would even leave the territory of
5 their municipality. They went -- they also went to
6 certain places from which the Muslims had left. They
7 went to their homes.
8 Q. And I take it that a lot of the Muslim people
9 that weren't sort of trapped by the war, if I can call
10 it that, they left too and went to places like Zenica,
11 didn't they?
12 A. There were such cases too and there were
13 those who stayed.
14 Q. And they stayed in their villages until such
15 time as -- well, you may not know this -- until such
16 time as they were rounded up and brought into the
17 Kaonik facility?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But there was no such roundup by the HVO
20 military police of the Croatian civilians, were they?
21 They weren't rounded up and put into Kaonik?
22 A. Those who broke some laws or violated some
23 laws were brought there, and they would be brought to
24 this Kaonik facility.
25 Q. Those were people who had committed criminal
1 offences, but we've already established that your
2 Muslim neighbours were not criminals.
3 A. No, you could not call them criminals.
4 Nobody said that they were criminals.
5 Q. You spoke about the fact that you had a
6 meeting early on with Mr. Aleksovski, and he told you
7 to treat the Muslim civilian --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- prisoners fairly and properly. This was
10 an order he gave to you, wasn't it?
11 A. Whether this was an order or something done
12 on a humane basis, I don't know, but we felt that it
13 would be humane to treat these people in such a way
14 because, as I said, we worked, commuted with these
15 people for years. They were our colleagues from work.
16 Q. Perhaps you might clarify that for me because
17 I'm a little uncertain about it. This issue about the
18 humane treatment of the prisoners, was that something
19 imposed upon you by Mr. Aleksovski by way of an order,
20 or was it something you merely chose to do yourself
21 because you knew that these people were innocent
22 civilians, or was it perhaps a combination of both?
23 A. You see, what Mr. Aleksovski said was nothing
24 bad. He said that these people should be treated as
25 well as possible. But even if we were not advised by
1 him in this way, we treated them in a humane and
2 collegiate way, so to speak, because we worked with
3 them for years and it is by no means that we treated
4 them badly.
5 Q. And you viewed them to be good, honest people
6 and there was no reason whatsoever for treating them --
7 A. Of course, there was no reason for any kind
8 of mistreatment. There was absolutely no reason for
10 Q. What would happen, do you think, what would
11 Mr. Aleksovski do if you had mistreated these people?
12 What would he have done to you if you had mistreated
13 these people?
14 A. He would mete out some punishment for any
15 infractions like that, maybe even some more severe
17 Q. And I take it that, so far as you're
18 concerned, you took the view that he wouldn't tolerate
19 any breaches of discipline?
20 A. If we were to do -- if we did something bad,
21 he definitely would start some kind of proceedings
22 against us.
23 Q. During that period of time, and I'm talking
24 about the first half of 1993 in particular, it was not
25 permissible, was it, for ordinary civilian people who
1 were in no way connected with the military to wear
2 military clothes?
3 A. I did not understand you well.
4 Q. Well, what I'm saying is that you were not
5 permitted, were you, to wear military-type clothes,
6 either wholly or partly, during that period of time
7 because the only people who were permitted to wear
8 military-type clothes were those persons who were in
9 some way connected with the military.
10 A. We were not allowed to wear any type of
11 uniform, so we were in civilian clothes.
12 Q. And you would agree with me that only people
13 who had some sort of connection to the military were
14 permitted to wear military clothes? It was illegal to
15 wear military clothes if you weren't in some way
16 connected to the military?
17 A. I did not understand that either.
18 Q. Well, let me take it perhaps in a few more
20 There was a shortage of military uniforms
21 during that period in 1993, wasn't there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And so the government was anxious to ensure
24 that only those people who were working for the
25 military would receive military uniforms which were in
1 short supply?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And so unless people were actually connected
4 with the military, whether it be the HVO or some other
5 unit, they were not permitted to wear military
7 A. No.
8 Q. "No," they weren't permitted -- is that what
9 you're saying? They weren't permitted to?
10 A. It was not permitted.
11 Q. Now, you said in answer to one of the
12 questions by Mr. Mikulicic that there were no cases
13 where people needed medical attention. I take it from
14 that you're not suggesting there was no cases
15 whatsoever, there's just none that you are aware of; is
16 that what you're saying?
17 A. I was only speaking of the period when I was
18 there, that there were no such cases that anybody
19 needed any medical attention or care during that
21 Q. Now, when the Muslim civilian prisoners were
22 taken out for trench-digging, were they tied up? Were
23 they restrained, that you could see?
24 A. Yes, I could see, but those people were not
25 tied up. They would just board the trucks and were
1 taken to locations where some work needed to be done.
2 Q. Did you ever see the Muslim civilian
3 prisoners being tied up before they were taken out of
4 the camp? Did you ever see that happen when you were
6 A. No, I never saw that.
7 Q. Now, the people that took these Muslim
8 civilian prisoners out for trench-digging, they were --
9 what? -- military police, were they?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And these military police were in uniform and
12 they were armed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, the military police had to take
15 precautions to ensure that these people wouldn't
16 escape, these Muslim civilian prisoners.
17 A. Well, of course, because they were also
18 charged with that.
19 Q. Now, when your brother went trench-digging
20 and your son went trench-digging, he wasn't sent there
21 as a prisoner, was he? He was someone who was co-opted
22 to assist with the war movement?
23 A. Well, it wasn't really of their own free will
24 that they went there, but such needs arose and the
25 military police would come and take them there, and
1 after they were done, they would bring them back.
2 Q. They were citizens of the municipality who
3 were being called upon --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- by the government to assist with the war
7 A. War effort? I'm not sure that I understood
8 who was called to help in the war effort.
9 Q. Okay. I'll take it more slowly.
10 When it came to your brother and your son
11 being taken to dig trenches, their assistance was
12 sought --
13 A. Right.
14 Q. -- by the military police because there was a
15 shortage of manpower and in order to protect the
16 municipality --
17 A. Exactly, yes.
18 Q. -- their assistance was required?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. They weren't arrested and taken -- what
21 didn't happen to your brother and son was they were
22 not --
23 A. No. No, they were not.
24 Q. -- they were not confined in a prison?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And when they went out to dig trenches, they
2 didn't have armed guards there who would shoot them in
3 the back if they tried to escape?
4 A. Well, the military police was with them as it
5 was with the Muslims.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, excuse me for
7 interrupting you, but maybe it would be good if we took
8 a break so that we can all take a little rest. So we
9 will take a 20-minute break.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, please
13 continue. You may continue.
14 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Lukin, how old was your son when he was
16 taken trench-digging?
17 A. He was 38.
18 Q. And your brother, how old was he?
19 A. My brother at that time was 63.
20 Q. And just going back for a little moment to
21 the Domobran unit that you spoke of retired people
22 being in that. Was there also young men in it as well?
23 A. You mean among the Domobrans?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. No. For the most part these were people
1 advanced in age.
2 Q. Now, I think you said that your brother and
3 son had said to you that they knew of no one who had
4 been injured at the front when they were
5 trench-digging. Other than from them telling you, did
6 you hear from other source where the people had been
7 injured or killed when they were taken out for
9 A. No, I did not hear that there were any
10 injured during that labour.
11 Q. Now, when the military police would come to
12 take the Muslim civilian prisoners out for the purposes
13 of trench-digging, they would come in the morning,
14 wouldn't they?
15 A. Yes, there were cases when they would come in
16 the morning or in the evening, depending on when
17 certain works were needed out in the field.
18 Q. And the people were selected, the Muslim
19 civilian prisoners were selected according to a list?
20 A. I'm not sure I understand how -- what you
21 mean by according to the list. Let's say the people
22 were chosen from a list if any work needed to be done,
23 some younger people were usually selected, and those
24 who were not well, they were sort of exempt. They were
1 Q. Now, Mr. Aleksovski was there, wasn't he,
2 from time to time when people were being selected and
3 taken out for trench-digging?
4 A. Sometimes he was not there. There were times
5 when Mr. Aleksovski was not there. He had his own work
6 hours and maybe somebody else whose shift it was would
7 assume the role of Mr. Aleksovski.
8 Q. Yes. I am not disputing that there were
9 times when he wasn't there I am just saying that there
10 were also times when he was there?
11 A. Yes, there were times when he was there, and
12 when he was there he was sort of controlling us there
13 and he would observe whether we carry out our duties
15 Q. Now, how did you know that these people were
16 going for trench-digging? Did the HVO police tell you
17 that, did they?
18 A. We knew, because the -- a door -- the gate
19 would open, the people would board a vehicle. You
20 didn't need to know more than that. You would see that
21 people were leaving.
22 Q. Yes. But it's known that they are actually
23 going to be used for trench-digging, was the point I
24 was aiming at. Did the HVO military police say, for
25 example, we need "X" number of people for the purposes
1 of digging trenches? Did they tell you that so that
2 you knew that was what was happening? Or did
3 Mr. Aleksovski tell you?
4 A. You see, we who were there securing the
5 facility had no idea whether they would go or not. We
6 would just see when the police arrived, when the gate
7 would open, the vehicle would be brought in. But if --
8 we didn't know that in advance as Domobrans. We were
9 not informed about it.
10 Q. Now, I think you yourself don't know whether
11 or not the Muslim civilian prisoners that were taken
12 trench-digging were beaten or not, but you couldn't
13 know that because you weren't at the trenches, weren't
15 A. No. That's correct.
16 Q. I suppose your son or your brother never
17 complained of being beaten when they were
19 A. No, they did not complain. They did not say
20 anything to that effect.
21 Q. Now, did you know during this period of time
22 that some of the Muslim civilian prisoners were taken
23 out for the purposes of being used as human shields for
24 the HVO?
25 A. I am not familiar with that. I do not know
1 that anything of that kind happened.
2 Q. Certainly, I take it, your son or your
3 brother were never used as HVO human shields?
4 A. I assumed that they were not.
5 Q. Well, I think they would have told you if
6 they had of been, wouldn't they? It's something that
7 they would likely tell you about?
8 A. Yes, probably they would have.
9 Q. During the time that you were there, can you
10 tell us, approximately, how many people were in the
11 hangar? How many Muslim civilian prisoners were in the
13 A. We did not have access to that information,
14 and we did not know the number of people who were in
15 the facility.
16 Q. Would you be able to have a rough idea. I
17 know you obviously didn't sit down and count them, but
18 was there -- did it appear to you that there were more
19 than a hundred or less than a thousand? Are you able
20 to give us any estimate at all?
21 A. It would be difficult for me to give any
22 figure. I never entered the facility, had no access to
23 that, so I would not be able to give you any number.
24 Q. Now, you spoke of people -- I'll withdraw
25 that, Your Honours.
1 I take it, that you are aware that in some of
2 the villages surrounding the Kaonik facility, that some
3 of those villages were destroyed and a lot of the
4 people -- a lot of the people were killed. You knew
5 that that happened, didn't you?
6 A. I don't know that they were killed, but since
7 I lived right next door to it, I did see that on some
8 occasions some buildings were on fire.
9 Q. Well, you lived fairly closely to the village
10 of Ahmici, didn't you? That was fairly close to where
11 you lived?
12 A. No, not very near the Ahmici village.
13 Q. How far away?
14 A. Something like seven kilometres away.
15 Q. You knew it had been -- you knew it had been
16 razed to the ground and that there was allegations
17 about a lot of people being killed there, hadn't you?
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic.
19 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour, objection
20 regarding the village of Ahmici, because the village of
21 Ahmici has absolutely not related to the charges in
22 this indictment before this Trial Chamber.
23 And with respect to the decision of the Trial
24 Chamber of 19 June '98, where it states that the
25 Prosecution needs to limit itself to the charges set
1 out in the indictment, that is the basis for our
3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I will be
4 demonstrating the significance of this line of
5 cross-examination as it emerges. And it will touch
6 upon matters which were discussed in evidence in chief
7 of this witness.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, can you tell
9 us in advance what is the importance of this question,
11 MR. NIEMANN: I certainly could, Your
12 Honours, but I would ask that the witness be requested
13 to remove his headset, if that's the case.
14 Yes, Your Honours, the line of questioning is
15 that there's been suggestion raised by this and other
16 witnesses that have come here that a lot of the --
17 well, not a lot, but a number of the people, the Muslim
18 people, came to the Kaonik facility voluntarily. And
19 the questions I am asking relate to the fact that there
20 were places, such as Ahmici and others which were
21 notorious places where people were killed, Muslim
22 villages were -- things happened, like the buildings
23 were burnt down, people were shot by the HVO, such that
24 it may be that a number of these people that came to
25 these areas, such as Kaonik, to seek protection and
1 shelter, because they in fact wanted to get away from
2 the attacks by the HVO.
3 So that it's not a case of people being
4 concerned about attacks from the army of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina that they wanted to escape from,
6 that they wanted to go to Kaonik because they felt it
7 may have been safer than staying in their homes in a
8 village like Ahmici where the evidence shows -- where
9 there was notorious events that occurred.
10 So it's that line of questioning. It comes
11 to that conclusion. And I have -- I believe that this
12 witness would know about what happened at Ahmici. I
13 believe he would know that. He can say one way or the
14 other. But that's where the line of questioning goes.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, what would
16 you like to say to this?
17 MR. MIKULICIC: I would like to say -- to
18 raise two points. The Defence absolutely respect the
19 position of the Prosecution, but before that the
20 Defence would like to clarify some points, if the
21 Prosecution would like to pose a question along these
22 lines. I think that first of all he would have to ask
23 the witness whether the people were Ahmici were brought
24 to Kaonik. And then if the answer is yes, then we see
25 a relation. If the answer is no, we see no relation
1 between this and our witness.
2 So the Defence believes that the questioning
3 should go along these lines. This is, perhaps, just a
4 suggestion for the further cross-examination.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, I think that
6 Mr. Mikulicic is right, as far as the way of
7 questioning is concerned. So you say that the question
8 was that you want to know whether there were people
9 from -- who were brought there, given the
10 circumstances. Can you -- have you understood me,
11 because you can only proceed in that way.
12 MR. NIEMANN: I am not prepared to proceed in
13 the way that Mr. Mikulicic is saying I have to proceed,
14 but I am prepared to change my line of questioning,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (No translation).
17 MR. NIEMANN: I had no translation of that.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You can resume your
20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Q. Mr. Lukin, are you aware that during this
22 period of time, that's in 1993 and the early part of
23 1993 through the whole of that period, that a number of
24 villages in relatively close proximity to yourself were
25 destroyed, and both Croat villages and Muslim villages?
1 A. Well, there were cases that people were
2 killed from these villages.
3 Q. And the villages that were destroyed, the
4 Croat villages, for example, were likely to have been
5 destroyed by forces of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
6 and the villages that --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- were predominantly Muslim were likely to
9 have been destroyed by the forces of the HVO; that's
10 the nature of war, is it not?
11 A. Well, exactly, yes.
12 Q. So when people -- so when Muslim civilian
13 citizens from the neighbourhood came to the Kaonik
14 facility, you would agree with me, would you not, that
15 more than likely they were in fear of being attacked by
16 HVO forces?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, prior to the war, and when the Kaonik
19 facility was a JNA base, it was an ammunition dump,
20 wasn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you wouldn't be able to say one way or
23 the other, I take it, whether the Army of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina still believed it to be an
25 ammunition dump or a prison facility in which Muslims
1 were being kept in 1993?
2 A. Well, they wouldn't believe that it was an
3 ammunition depot or dump, because they knew when these
4 facilities were evacuated and when all the mighty
5 potential and arms and weapons were withdrew from
7 Q. Is that something that you know? How do you
8 know that? Tell me, how is it that you know that, that
9 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina would have known that
10 for sure, that it had been disbanded as an ammunition
12 A. Well, they knew because the military
13 facilities, such as they were in Kaonik, existed in
14 Kacuni, and these facilities were vacated and evacuated
15 simultaneously by the JNA troops, so which took with
16 them everything that they needed. And it was evident,
17 then, that the army knew what happened with the
18 facility at Kaonik.
19 Q. Now, one final point is that when you were
20 injured, you said that you were sent home in order to
21 get better. Do you remember saying that, in 1993?
22 A. Yes. I even said the date when I was
23 wounded, how long I was absent, and that I resumed my
24 duty, but not in the prison, inside the prison, but
25 outside at the gate.
1 Q. I take it, that you would agree with me that
2 it's common sense that it was considered that when you
3 were injured and recovering, home would have been the
4 best place for you to be, because it was warmer, it was
5 safer, and there was a ready supply of water and food
6 for you to help you in your recovery?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have
11 any additional questions?
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Well, maybe just a few, Your
13 Honours, if you allow me.
14 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic
15 Q. Mr. Lukin, can you tell us, according to your
16 knowledge, from which villages in the Busovaca area
17 people were brought or they arrived, civilian Muslims
18 were brought or they arrived at Kaonik?
19 A. Yes. The village of Loncari, the village of
20 Strane and the village of Skradno.
21 Q. Mr. Lukin, were there any cases that, as far
22 as the village of Ahmici was concerned, that some
23 people would arrive or be brought to Kaonik?
24 A. Ahmici are in no way related to the -- to
25 what happened in Kaonik and a facility at Kaonik.
1 Q. I see. Mr. Lukin, you also mentioned that
2 some people, and by that I imply the population of
3 Croat origin, that people who were not involved as
4 fighters in the frontlines, and who were not involved
5 in your Domobran company, in the same company in which
6 you served, that those people would remain home; is
7 that correct?
8 A. I did not understand you completely.
9 Q. Is that true, Mr. Lukin, that local
10 population, and by that I imply local Croats, who were
11 not engaged in the front or who were not serving in
12 your Domobran company, is that true that they would
13 remain home?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The people who remained home, did they have
16 labour duty?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Does that apply -- did that apply to your son
19 and your brother?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know, perhaps, what would happen if
22 your son, or your brother, when military police would
23 come to take them away for labour duty, what would
24 happen if they refused?
25 A. Well, the same measures would be taken as
1 against all others. Perhaps they would be punished or
2 disciplined, something like that.
3 Q. One more question, Mr. Lukin. Does Zlatko
4 Aleksovski belong to your Domobran company?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did Zlatko Aleksovski have any powers as far
7 as giving orders to Domobrans in the Domobran company
8 were concerned?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Who did have such orders in your company?
11 A. The commander of the Domobran company.
12 MR. MIKULICIC: No further questions, Your
14 JUDGE VOHRAH: Witness, a number of questions
15 were put to you about the hygienic conditions in Kaonik
16 Prison. Now, can you tell me how many toilets there
17 were for all the inmates in that facility?
18 A. Are you asking me?
19 JUDGE VOHRAH: Yes.
20 A. I cannot answer that question.
21 JUDGE VOHRAH: I don't suppose, then, you can
22 answer the next question as to how many bathrooms there
23 were in that facility?
24 A. In that facility, the facility to be secured,
25 the Domobrans, there were no bathrooms. But there were
1 bathrooms in the neighbouring facility, and
2 occasionally people would go there to take a bath.
3 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Lukin, I too have some
5 questions for you. You said that you served at the
6 entrance at the gate, and that you were there in order
7 to allow people in, people in vehicles who had permits;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And you already said
11 something about that when the Prosecutor asked you
12 about the same thing. But I need some clarification
13 there. We know that you were there, and that you spent
14 only 10 days there; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Who then -- who then would
17 usually have those permits?
18 A. For entering the grounds, permits were issued
19 to people from the Red Cross.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes. But I said those who
21 would be allowed to enter the grounds. Who would
22 normally be given such permits?
23 A. Well, you see, we who were on duty at the
24 gate, we had a telephone, just for internal use, and
25 when people would come to the gate who we -- whom we
1 did not know, and who did not have the necessary
2 documents, we would consult the shift leader or
3 Mr. Zlatko whether or not we should allow them to
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I understand that if there
6 were people who would come without papers, that you
7 would then seek permission or give them permission to
8 enter, but people who already had permits with them,
9 were they allowed to enter directly or did you have to
10 consult Mr. Aleksovski in order to let them in?
11 A. Well, most frequently there was military
12 police and they had those papers, and so there was no
13 need for us to consult or to seek permission from
14 Zlatko or from one of his assistants to allow such
15 people to get in.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right, Mr. Lukin. But
17 in addition to military police, there were other
18 people, members of other organisations who already had
19 such documents on them, such permits; is that correct?
20 A. I don't know that there were organisations
21 who had such documents. I mentioned already military
22 police and representatives of the Red Cross, and there
23 were no other people.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And as far as the HVO
25 soldiers were concerned, what about them? Did you
1 understand me? Did you understand the question?
2 A. No.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, I have -- my question
4 is as follows: HVO soldiers, did they have
5 authorisation to enter or not?
6 A. People who were employed in the prison, they
7 had the permits.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes. I see. But the HVO
9 soldiers who did not work there, for instance, soldiers
10 -- HVO soldiers who did not work in the prison, did
11 they have or didn't they have to -- didn't they have
12 such permits?
13 A. They -- there were no such permits and they
14 did not enter the prison grounds.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, for instance, if a
16 soldier, if an HVO soldier who was not employed in the
17 prison, if such a person wanted to enter the prison
18 grounds, you would have to consult Mr. Aleksovski about
19 the permit; is that correct?
20 A. Well, yes, but in most cases such persons
21 would not arrive without documents.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. I have one more
23 question for you, Mr. Lukin. You said that food was
24 served three times a day or two times a day, and that
25 in any case there were difficulties since you had food
1 shortages; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, I said in the beginning we had enough
3 food, but there were no shortages. And as the blockade
4 continued, and it lasted for a long time, we had to
5 distribute only two meals a day, or two rations a day.
6 And I already said that it was the same food for all.
7 People who were in the facility, people who served, and
8 all the others.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right, Mr. Lukin. How
10 was the food served? How was it served? Was it served
11 in plates or in any other way?
12 A. In the facility that we guarded, the food was
13 distributed into rations and plates.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Well, then, individual
15 rations; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Did you -- were you aware
18 of the fact that, or did you know, actually, how the
19 civilians received their food, the civilian prisoners?
20 A. In the same way that was applied to all the
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. Another
23 question. Did you know how a military police uniform
24 looked like?
25 A. Well, they had the same uniform as the HVO
1 soldiers, but the insignias were different.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Can you distinguish, or
3 could you distinguish between the uniforms of a soldier
4 and a military police, judging by the insignias they
5 had; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And the uniform that
8 Mr. Aleksovski sometimes wore, was it the same as the
9 uniform of the HVO or was it a uniform of the military
11 A. Well, it looked more like an HVO uniform, but
12 without the insignia, and he frequently wore civilian
14 Q. Yes. But if I understood you correctly, when
15 he wore a military uniform, his uniform resembled more
16 the uniform of the HVO than the uniform of a military
17 police; did I understood you correctly?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I think that the Trial
20 Chamber has no further questions for you, Mr. Lukin.
21 Thank you very much for coming here, and I hope that
22 you will have a safe journey back to your home. Thank
23 you very much, Mr. Lukin.
24 (The witness withdrew)
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, you have the
2 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. The
3 Defence now calls the witness by the name of Ivica
5 (The witness entered court)
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon,
7 Mr. Bagaric. Can you hear me? You will now read the
8 solemn declaration that will be given to you by our
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated, sir.
14 You can be seated, so as to feel comfortable. Do you
15 feel comfortable, sir? For the time being you will
16 answer the questions which will be posed to you by
17 Mr. Mikulicic.
18 You have the floor, Mr. Mikulicic.
19 WITNESS: IVICA BAGARIC
20 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
21 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. I would just kindly
22 ask, before we start with the questioning of
23 Mr. Bagaric, if I can consult my client for a short
24 time, for about 30 seconds to be more precise. Do I
25 have your permission to consult my client?
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Do you have any objections,
2 Mr. Niemann?
3 MR. NIEMANN: Certainly not, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You have the permission,
5 Mr. Mikulicic.
6 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I
7 am ready now to proceed.
8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bagaric?
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. My name is Mr. Mikulicic and I represent
11 Mr. Aleksovski, together with my colleague, Mr. Joka.
12 I am going to ask you some questions and please be so
13 kind to answer them to the best of your ability.
14 Mr. Bagaric, when were you born?
15 A. I was born in 1942 in Busovaca.
16 Q. Did you spend your childhood in Busovaca?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you reside in Busovaca?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you speak of Busovaca, are you talking
21 about the town of Busovaca or the wider area of
23 A. I live in the village, I guess, of Kaonik,
24 but I went to school in the Kaonik town.
25 Q. Do you live in your own family house or in
1 some apartment building?
2 A. In my own house.
3 Q. What is your ethnic background, Mr. Bagaric?
4 A. I am a Croat.
5 Q. Are you religious?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is your religion?
8 A. It's Roman Catholic.
9 Q. Mr. Bagaric, where did you go to school?
10 A. I graduated from the elementary school in
11 Busovaca and from the secondary school in Zenica.
12 Q. What kind of a secondary school in Zenica was
13 it that --
14 A. It was a trade school and I was specialised
15 in metals.
16 Q. Did you take employment right after school?
17 A. Yes. Right away.
18 Q. Where did you become employed?
19 A. In Zenica, in a company called Pappero.
20 Q. Did you do your military service?
21 A. Yes, after I graduated from the secondary
22 school I did.
23 Q. When was this, approximately?
24 A. This was in 1962, '63.
25 Q. Did you receive any rank in the army?
1 A. No.
2 Q. After you completed your military service in
3 the former JNA, did you have any obligations with the
4 reserves during the period of time of the former
6 A. No, I did not have any duties, but
7 occasionally, since I was a mechanic in the old
8 artillery during my military service, so during some
9 military exercises I went there for some repairs.
10 Q. You continued to live in Kaonik in the
11 Busovaca municipality?
12 A. Yes. I have been at the same address.
13 Q. Are you retired or are you still employed?
14 A. I am neither. I was wounded, so I received
15 disability. But the company where I worked is -- is no
16 longer in operation.
17 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you recall the beginning of
18 the conflict in Busovaca, when was this? And I am
19 speaking now about the Muslim-Croat conflict of 1993.
20 A. This was early on. I could not give you the
21 exact time, but it was early in 1993.
22 Q. How do you remember those events?
23 A. There was so much shooting.
24 Q. So there was shooting?
25 A. Yes and then also I was mobilised until I was
2 Q. Can you tell us when you were mobilised and
3 to what military unit you were mobilised?
4 A. I was mobilised in early 1993 and the
5 military unit was the HVO. That is an HVO unit, they
6 were called the HVO.
7 Q. And what happened thereafter?
8 A. Thereafter I was transferred to the Domobran
9 unit, but I don't know what its name was, because I was
10 considered a bit older. So I was assigned to the
12 Q. Does that mean that you were transferred from
13 the HVO unit to the Domobran unit because of your age?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Other persons who, like you, were members of
16 the Domobran unit, were these also older people? What
17 was the age group there?
18 A. Yes, for the most part they were old and they
19 were even older than I was.
20 Q. When you joined the Domobran units, did you
21 receive a uniform or some weapons from that unit?
22 A. No, I did not receive anything.
23 Q. But I assume that you had a uniform from
24 before, when you were in the HVO?
25 A. That is correct. I had it from there. But I
1 did not receive anything from the Domobrans.
2 Q. Mr. Bagaric, does that mean that you were
3 allowed to take the uniform, which was issued to you by
4 the HVO, to the new unit?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How about the weapons?
7 A. The weapons I did not receive, but if I was
8 to go to certain duty or task, I would be given a
10 Q. So what duties or tasks were you assigned to
11 while you were with the Domobran unit?
12 A. While I was there I was assigned to guard the
13 civilians in the Kaonik Prison.
14 Q. You mentioned that you had a house in the
15 Kaonik village. How far is your house from the Kaonik
17 A. About five to six hundred metres.
18 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you know what the purpose of
19 the Kaonik facility was before the armed conflict which
20 took place in the Busovaca area, that is the conflict
21 between the Croats and Muslims?
22 A. Before the conflict it was used by the
23 Yugoslav army.
24 Q. You mean the JNA?
25 A. Yes. At that time it belonged to them.
1 Q. And after the JNA pulled out of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, what happened to this facility?
3 A. The civilians were taken there, the civilians
4 of the Muslim ethnic background.
5 Q. Do you know whether there was a district
6 military prison there or not?
7 A. I know it was not there, but it wasn't in
8 this facility.
9 Q. You mean in Kaonik?
10 A. Yes, in Kaonik.
11 Q. You say it was in another facility, you mean
12 another building?
13 A. Yes, another building. Not where I guarded
14 these civilian Muslims. It was -- that prison was in
15 another building.
16 Q. I see. How far were these two buildings away
17 from one another?
18 A. About 30 to 40, maybe up to 50 metres.
19 Q. You mentioned that as a member of the
20 Domobran unit you were assigned to guard the Kaonik
21 facility. What exactly was your task or duty?
22 A. My task was that during my duty, if the
23 prisoners, and I don't know if I can call them
24 prisoners, but if they wanted to go to the toilet, I
25 would open the door for them. When the food was
1 brought to them, that I opened the door again.
2 Sometimes they asked for wood and then I would give
3 them wood, if it was cold. So things like that.
4 Q. Were you armed at that time when you guarded
5 that building?
6 A. Yes, I did have a rifle.
7 Q. What was your relationship with these persons
8 who were kept there who were these Muslim civilians?
9 A. My relationship? Everything was fine.
10 Q. Did you know any of these people?
11 A. Yes, I knew quite a few of them.
12 Q. Where were they from? Where did they live
14 A. For the most part these people were, as we
15 called them, neighbours. They would be from
16 neighbouring villages.
17 Q. Do you, perhaps, recall what villages?
18 A. Yes. They were from the villages of Loncari
19 and Skradno.
20 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you remember whether in the
21 area of the villages of Loncari and Skradno any
22 fighting was going on?
23 A. What period are you referring to?
24 Q. I am referring to the period of time when you
25 were guarding the prison facility.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Bagaric, I am talking now about the
3 security situation during the conflict. Did shells and
4 grenades fall around your house where you lived?
5 A. Yes, they did, and I was wounded at that time
6 and there.
7 Q. Do you know what the situation was in other
8 areas of the Busovaca municipality? Were shells
9 falling around there as well, and was there shooting
10 going on?
11 A. There was no location in the area where the
12 shells did not fall.
13 Q. Was it because the Defence lines or the
14 frontlines were close by?
15 A. Yes, they were very close. Busovaca is a
16 small place, so all around there were -- are -- we
17 called them the defence lines, and then there were the
18 lines in between. And then there were the Muslim lines
19 also, beyond that.
20 Q. Can you tell us what was the distance as the
21 crow flies between your house and the front lines?
22 A. In some places it was even less than 500
23 metres, and in some other places up to 2.000 or 2.500.
24 Q. Mr. Bagaric, while you were on duty providing
25 security at Kaonik, did you have an opportunity to be
1 in contact with the civilians, the Muslim civilians who
2 were there?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Could you observe what conditions -- what
5 their living conditions were, where they slept, how
6 they ate, where they went to the toilet? Can you tell
7 us something about that?
8 A. I even entered the areas where they stayed.
9 And since they were my former neighbours, I even played
10 cards with them.
11 May I continue now? As I said I entered
12 there and I played cards with them. I knew a lot of
13 them, most of them. And as far as the conditions are
14 concerned, I know that they were not cold, they had
15 something to cover themselves with. Whenever they
16 asked for something, water, wood, a blanket or
17 something, they would receive that. And we didn't --
18 and as far as the sleeping, we had pallets. That was
20 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you recall personally an
21 event, a situation where you yourself answered and
22 provided some service to somebody who asked you?
23 A. Yes. Can I say what it was?
24 Q. Go ahead, please.
25 A. As I said a moment ago, I knew most of them
1 and they knew me. I once asked Mr. Aleksovski, I told
2 him that very frequently they wanted to go out to the
3 toilet, and I opened the door and I let them. And I
4 said -- I asked him if I could just let them walk
5 around during my shift and then, at the end of my
6 shift, they should go back into their room. And that's
7 how it happened. And then, after a couple of days, one
8 of them approached me because, as he said, I was good.
9 And he said, "Ivica, could you please request of
10 Mr. Aleksovski if I could go, I could be taken to have
11 my haircut." So I went to Mr. Aleksovski and I -- and
12 he said there is no problem, but just bring him back.
13 So, since my house was near the facility, I
14 told my wife that I would bring this man. So he came
15 over to my place. He took a bath. I gave him a fresh
16 change of underwear. He ate something and we went to
17 Busovaca where he got a hair cut.
18 We walked around Busovaca a little bit, we
19 returned to my house, and in the evening we went back
20 to the prison. And the man thanked me and he told me
21 if he ever went back to his home, "here is my address,
22 here is my phone number. Come and visit." However, I
23 never went to visit. That's how it happened.
24 Q. Do you recall the name of this man today?
25 A. I have it written down, if you want me to I
1 can look it up. But I forget now.
2 Q. Do you have it here on you?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Go ahead, refresh your memory.
5 A. I'm sorry, my wallet is not here. I know
6 that his nickname was Rusmir Pasic, something like
7 that. I know that they called him Rujo.
8 Q. Mr. Bagaric, you said that you would enter
9 the building where the Muslim civilians were kept, and
10 that you played cards with them; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you occasionally bring something with
13 you to share with them?
14 A. Yes. In fact, I brought some alcohol with
15 me, but I didn't do it quite on my own. I asked before
16 I did that.
17 Q. So you offered them some brandy, right?
18 A. Yes. And since I am not a smoker and I was
19 receiving cigarettes, I would distribute my cigarettes
20 to them.
21 Q. Mr. Bagaric, did you notice what food was
22 like? What did these people eat?
23 A. At that time the food there was kind of
24 soldiery food. It was mostly beans and some pasta and
25 occasionally there was meat. So I ate that food
1 myself, as well.
2 Q. So everybody ate the same food, both the
3 soldiers and the prisoners?
4 A. Yes. They all -- everybody ate the same
6 Q. Do you remember whether at the time, when you
7 were on duty at Kaonik, that there was some outbreak,
8 some disease among these people?
9 A. No. I don't remember.
10 Q. Mr. Bagaric, did you see whether these Muslim
11 civilians, who were in this facility which you guarded,
12 did you see them go to work, to labour?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you describe to us how this took place?
15 A. Usually somebody would come from the
16 frontlines and would ask somebody from the military
17 police for several, I don't know how many, people who
18 they needed to dig some canals. Then they would come
19 into the hangar, escorted by the military policemen,
20 and they would take, 10, 15, however many they needed,
21 they would take them in a vehicle and they would take
22 them out to dig.
23 Q. You said somebody would come. Do you mean
24 somebody from the military?
25 A. No, no, no. Somebody from the frontlines.
1 Either a commander or deputy commander. They would
2 come to the military policemen and the military
3 policemen would come to the hangar, and there would be
4 a list. We had nothing with that. We had nothing to
5 do with it.
6 Q. I understand. And who would compile this
7 list? Do you know that?
8 A. No, I do not know that.
9 Q. Mr. Bagaric, tell us, if you know, whether
10 the citizens of Croatian ethnic background, who also
11 had this labour duty, those who were not mobilised in
12 the HVO units who had remained back at home (sic)?
13 A. Everybody who could dig and who was not in
14 the military was sent digging, including my uncle, for
16 Q. How old was your uncle at that time?
17 A. He was born in 1920.
18 Q. Do you know where your uncle went to perform
19 his labour duty?
20 A. That was on the frontline at Kula and at
21 Podjele, and a little bit at frontline at Strane.
22 Q. And, Mr. Bagaric, do you know how he went to
23 perform his labour work duty? Did somebody come to
24 take him, did he go there on his own, how did it
1 A. As far as I know, because we lived, one next
2 to another, he would receive information and then he
3 would leave there and then, when he was out, he would
4 come back home.
5 Q. Would he always receive a notice or would
6 some soldier come to get him?
7 A. Sometimes they would come even at night. For
8 instance, a line would be broken and then you needed to
9 dig a new line.
10 Q. Do you know of other people who had this work
11 duty from your village, or of your neighbourhood,
12 except for your uncle?
13 A. As I said before, everybody who was not able
14 to fight. There were even younger women who did not go
15 to the frontline, but went to this work duty.
16 Q. Mr. Bagaric, you mentioned Zlatko
17 Aleksovski. Can you tell me when you -- when it was
18 that you met him?
19 A. I met Zlatko Aleksovski when I came there to
20 guard the civilians.
21 Q. Would you recognise him today if you saw him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you see him here in the courtroom?
24 A. Yes, I see him over there. That's the man.
25 MR. MIKULICIC: For the record, the witness
1 pointed to the accused and identifies him as Zlatko
3 Q. Mr. Bagaric, did you have frequent contacts
4 with Zlatko Aleksovski or did you see him once or
6 A. While I was on duty, we saw each other. He
7 did not give me very many orders, because I had my own
8 commander of the Domobrans unit.
9 Q. But was Zlatko Aleksovski a member of your
10 Domobran unit?
11 A. And as far as my acquaintance with him is
12 concerned, he took me to the health centre when I was
13 wounded (sic).
14 Q. Do you know how Zlatko Aleksovski was dressed
15 while he was at Kaonik, while you were at Kaonik? Did
16 he wear a uniform or civilian clothes?
17 A. Both uniform and civilian clothes, it
19 Q. Do you recall whether he had any insignia,
20 any rank insignia or anything?
21 A. No, I do not recall.
22 Q. Mr. Bagaric, tell me, at that time was it
23 usual for the people who were not involved in the army
24 to wear uniforms or part of uniforms?
25 A. Yes, it was. People who received them from
1 the HVO before, they were wearing them when they were
2 on the frontlines, sometimes when they were at home, or
3 when they were working, depending on the situation. It
4 even became popular to wear some vests and t-shirts.
5 Q. Mr. Bagaric, six years have passed since. Do
6 some people in your village still wear parts of
7 uniforms in your village?
8 A. Yes. A few days ago a man brought some wood
9 to me from the forest, and he was wearing army boots
10 and an army vest.
11 Q. An army vest?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Wouldn't you agree with me that it is not
14 unusual for civilians, at that time, and even today, to
15 wear parts of military uniforms; is that unusual?
16 A. No. At least not for us living in that area.
17 Q. Did you notice, while you were at Kaonik, in
18 what way Zlatko Aleksovski treated the prisoners, the
19 Muslim civilians who were there, how did he treat them?
20 A. Well, if you were asking me whether I
21 directly and personally saw how he treated the
22 prisoners, I didn't. But I can tell you that he was a
23 correct, because whenever I asked him to do something
24 for some of the prisoners, he always said yes.
25 Q. I see. While you were at Kaonik, did you see
1 any cases or incidents where somebody would beat or
2 maltreat the Muslim civilians?
3 A. While I was there as a guard, I haven't seen
4 anything like that. And what happened before that, I
5 wouldn't know.
6 Q. Do you remember whether some of them was
7 taken ill, seriously, or that some of them was injured
8 or -- while you were there?
9 A. While I was there, nothing like that had
11 Q. You said, in the beginning of your testimony,
12 that practically there was not a single part of the
13 area in Busovaca which was not shelled and where the
14 fighting was not going on. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Does it also apply to Kaonik?
17 A. Well, perhaps that was the place that was
18 most heavily shelled but the entire area of Busovaca
19 was shelled and not a single inch was left without
21 Q. Do you know whether some of the prisoners, or
22 the Muslims who were detained in Kaonik, were any of
23 them wounded or killed?
24 A. In Kaonik or at Busovaca, as such, I haven't
25 heard of any such cases.
1 Q. Were you wounded, Mr. Bagaric?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. While you were on duty as a guard?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you describe how it happened?
6 A. I was going to work, just as I arrived at the
7 gate an acquaintance, or a friend and a neighbour was
8 there, and we stopped there to talk for a while because
9 I was early. And a shell landed four and a half metres
10 away from me and it -- I fell down. And people who
11 were there said that -- told Zlatko what happened. He
12 came with the car, took me to the medical centre in
13 Busovaca. This is where I received first aid. And
14 from there I was transferred to Nova Bila to the
15 hospital there.
16 My son was later killed, accompanied me, and
17 Zlatko drove his car back home. I don't know whether
18 you need any more details, because my son at the time
19 was in the military police. As soon as he heard that
20 he (sic) was wounded, he immediately came there and his
21 car remained when I was taken to hospital. And that is
22 why Mr. Aleksovski drove the car home.
23 Q. When was your son killed, Mr. Bagaric?
24 A. He was killed on the 10th of September 1973.
25 Q. You mean 1993?
1 A. Yes, '93. He was born in 1973.
2 Q. As a member of the HVO?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And how were you wounded? What injuries did
5 you sustain? Severe or light?
6 A. Well, the kidney now, my kidney could be
7 seen, I have a wound which is 14 centimetres long. And
8 I also had some slight injuries on my hands and
10 Q. So you were lucky to stay alive?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Bagaric, after you received help at the
13 Nova Bila hospital, you were released to go home,
15 A. At the Nova Bila hospital I just stayed
16 overnight, because the hospital itself was a target of
17 shell attacks. We were told that I wouldn't be secure
18 even there. And that is why I went to Busovaca and I
19 remained there for some ten days, until I started -- I
20 could walk. And that's when I went home.
21 Q. Where were you staying at Busovaca?
22 A. That was the military hospital. That's how
23 we called it.
24 Q. That was an outlet of the Nova Bila hospital?
25 A. Yes, but it was not a regular hospital
1 before. It was used as a war hospital. It was a
2 kindergarten before.
3 Q. So there were just beds there?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. But that was not a medical centre at
7 A. No, because it too was shelled.
8 Q. And after that you went home?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you ever return to Kaonik to resume your
11 duty there or somewhere else?
12 A. No not as a guard. I didn't even go to the
13 defence lines. I went to the wood plank factory called
14 Mediappen and I was employed there because there was
15 some special production during war-time.
16 Q. So it was another form of labour duty?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. After the events that you have described, did
19 you have any connections whatsoever with the military
20 of any kind? Were you involved in any military unit
21 after that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So that was all. Do you know, Mr. Bagaric,
24 anything about the Muslims who were at Kaonik, and you
25 said that they were taken out for labour duty, do you
1 know that they too were taken out for -- to be used as
2 human shields? Do you know anything about that?
3 A. No, I don't know anything about that, because
4 I wouldn't accompany them.
5 Q. Do you know, when they were taken out from
6 Kaonik, these Muslims, were their hands tied up or did
7 they go with their arms free?
8 A. No, their hands were not tied up, because the
9 car would come, they would climb and go.
10 Q. I see. Were you present when they would
11 return from the labour duty, when they were returned to
12 Kaonik? Were you there sometimes when they returned?
13 A. Well, mostly no, because our shifts lasted
14 for about two hours, and they would stay more at that
15 digging. So somebody else would be there when they
16 would return. Maybe I was there once or twice, but not
17 more than that.
18 Q. But sometimes you were there?
19 A. Yes. But not on many occasions.
20 Q. So when you were there on a few occasions,
21 did you notice that some of those people who would be
22 returned, whether they were hurt, wounded or something
23 like that?
24 A. No. No. We even joked. They would ask me
25 whether I had cigarettes and things like that. And
1 they would go to take a rest. We didn't have much time
2 for talk.
3 Q. Do you know, Mr. Bagaric, who would bring --
4 who had brought the Muslim civilians at Kaonik, and how
5 did they arrive there in the first place? Do you know
6 anything about that?
7 A. Well, I was not there when they were brought
8 in, but I heard that the HVO would bring them, because
9 they were in the -- in their zone of jurisdiction, so
10 there was fighting there and they were behind the
11 backs, so to say, of the defence lines, and that's why
12 they were brought there for their own security and for
13 our security. Because we feared because of that. And
14 some people even liked that.
15 I have an example where my neighbour, who
16 returned home in the meantime, at Skradno, who said
17 that he was -- that it was his happiest time when he
18 was taken there, because the shells were landing and
19 you never knew where it would hit.
20 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Bagaric, whether there
21 were some cases where those people would come of their
22 own free will at Kaonik to feel more secure and to seek
23 shelter from war operations?
24 A. I heard about it, but I haven't seen it
1 Q. Mr. Bagaric, while you were on duty, were you
2 ever employed at the gate, at a steel gate, at the
3 entrance to the entire complex?
4 A. No, I never worked there, but I was wounded
6 Q. Mr. Bagaric, thank you very much. I have no
7 further questions for you.
8 Your Honours, we have no further questions
9 for this witness.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Meddegoda
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Meddegoda
12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bagaric.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. The Prosecution sympathises with you over the
15 loss of your son during the conflict in 1993. Having
16 said that, I wish to ask a few questions from you on
17 behalf of the Prosecution.
18 A. The witness nods and says yes.
19 Q. Mr. Bagaric, you said that after your
20 secondary school you went to work in a company. And
21 what was the name of that company that you worked in,
22 after secondary school?
23 A. I have to correct myself there, because I
24 first worked in a company, in a metal processing
25 company, and second company which I mentioned is
2 Q. And what is the name of the metal processing
3 company that you worked in?
4 A. The company for the processing -- for metal
5 processing, that was the name.
6 Q. And then you moved on to the Pappero company?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that where you worked until you retired?
9 A. Yes. The Pappero company Zenica for the
10 professional rehabilitation of invalids.
11 Q. Did you at any point work in any other place,
12 any other company?
13 A. Yes, shortly before the war, at the mineral
14 company outlet from Belgrade, I worked for four years.
15 Q. And what was that company called?
16 A. Just Mineral Belgrade.
17 Q. Did you ever work in a company in the
18 Vatrostalna factory?
19 A. Never.
20 Q. You never worked in the Vatrostalna factory?
21 A. No. Only the companies that I've already
22 listed. But during the war I worked in a Mediappen
23 company in Busovaca.
24 Q. And that was a company, was it called timber?
25 A. Yes, that's correct. But at that time it was
1 not operating for that purpose.
2 Q. If it is said that you ever did work in the
3 Vatrostalna company, that would not be correct?
4 A. Completely incorrect.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Bagaric, you said you
6 were first mobilised to the HVO after your retirement?
7 A. I was first mobilised at the HVO, but I am
8 not retired, not even now.
9 Q. Yes. You said you were neither retired nor
10 employed. Yes. I remember that. And after you were
11 mobilised, you said from there, from your mobilisation,
12 you were transferred to the Domobran unit. Am I right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And when was that?
15 A. In 1993.
16 Q. Do you remember when in 1993 you were
17 transferred to the Domobran unit?
18 A. Well, sometime in April, 1993.
19 Q. So it was after being transferred to the
20 Domobran unit in April of 1993 that you were assigned
21 to the Kaonik Prison facility?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And who transferred you to the Domobran from
24 the HVO?
25 A. It was at my personal request, because of my
1 poor health.
2 Q. And at whose instance was the transfer
3 affected? You requested, but who ordered the transfer
4 from the HVO to the Domobran unit?
5 A. I applied to my commander, and he said that
6 he would see what he could do about it, and tomorrow he
7 said that I should report for duty in Busovaca at the
8 Domobrans. They are in Busovaca.
9 Q. Did you get any written transfer order from
10 your commander?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Who was your commander who asked you to
13 report the following day to the Kaonik facility in
15 A. Cosic. I can't remember his first name. And
16 he has a brother by the name of Jago.
17 Q. Now, you said you were injured on the day
18 when you arrived for work in the Kaonik facility, you
19 were injured at the gate when a shell hit you and you
20 sustained injury?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you remember when that was?
23 A. Well, I said it was on the 10th of June
24 1993. That's what I said.
25 Q. Thank you. You were, upon being assigned to
1 the Kaonik facility, you said in evidence that you had
2 to guard the building in which the Muslim civilian --
3 civilian prisoners were being detained?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you knew most of those Muslim civilian
6 prisoners who were detained there, as you already said
7 in evidence?
8 A. Yes, I knew them.
9 Q. And you knew them to be persons of --
10 citizens of the community who were good citizens and
11 citizens who had not had any breaches with the law, or
12 not any serious criminals of the area?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you know why those Muslim prisoners
15 were being detained in the Kaonik Prison?
16 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but I suppose
17 that they were taken there because of their own
19 Q. Now, the Domobrans unit did not have any
20 weapons, did it?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did the other guards of the Domobran unit
23 carry weapons?
24 A. (No translation).
25 Q. And how do you think you would have secured
1 their safety in the case of an attack, or in the case
2 of an invasion, when you had no weapons with you, and
3 the Domobran unit did not have any weapons with you.
4 Neither you nor any of the guards had any weapons with
6 A. We were not sent there to try to fend off an
7 attack, but we were sent there just to be handy, and to
8 help those people when they need something.
9 Q. But you said a while ago they were sent there
10 for their own safety and their own security, didn't
12 A. No. I said that they were taken there
13 because of their own security, as far as I remember.
14 Q. And you have not been able to secure them in
15 the facility without any effective weapons being given
16 to the Domobrans unit, of which you are a member?
17 A. Well, yes, that's correct.
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bagaric, you said that you
19 know that Muslim prisoners were taken to the trenches
20 from the prison facility.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I take it, that -- and then you said that you
23 saw them being taken on one or two occasions. Or you
24 saw them being returned on one or two occasions?
25 A. Both. Both. I saw both.
1 Q. And now your uncle was also a person who was
2 taken for trench-digging?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. He was taken from his home for
5 trench-digging? He was not taken from a prison
6 facility --
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And he was not taken from a prison facility
9 to dig trenches?
10 A. (Nod).
11 Q. You sought Mr. Aleksovski's permission to
12 take a prisoner home, didn't you?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. What did you say to Mr. Aleksovski?
15 A. I told him that this man has asked me to do
16 him a favour. And that's what I did.
17 Q. And what did he say to you?
18 A. Well, he said, "Yes, okay. But you have to
19 bring him back in the evening."
20 Q. So he gave you permission to take a prisoner
21 home and be brought back to the prison facility in the
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. But there are -- were there instances on
25 which you -- were there other instances in which you
1 took prisoners home?
2 A. That is the case. That is the instance.
3 Q. And you also, Mr. Aleksovski also gave you
4 permission to let the prisoners out of the prison
5 facility during the time you were on guard duty?
6 A. Outside just in front of the prison building,
8 Q. And for that as well, I believe you asked
9 Mr. Aleksovski for such permission?
10 A. Yes. I can't remember whether I sought that
11 permission from Aleksovski or from somebody else who
12 was there, military police or, I don't know how to call
14 Q. And what did you in fact -- what permission
15 did you in fact seek from either Mr. Aleksovski or from
16 the military police who were there?
17 A. Well, it went like this. During my two hours
18 on duty I had at least ten interventions from civilians
19 who were kept in that prison. They actually asked to
20 be taken out to go to the toilet. And I had to open
21 and close the door again, and I was -- I then asked
22 whether I could let them out, all, because I knew that
23 they wouldn't usurp it, but I never they had to seek
24 permission, which was granted, to take them out while I
25 was on duty. And when the two hours elapsed, I would
1 bring them back. Even if they need not go to the
3 Q. And you were given that permission to let
4 them out of the prison facility and return -- and be
5 returned to the facility during the period of your
6 shift of guard duty?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Mr. Bagaric, do you know of -- for how long
9 -- I withdraw that question, Your Honour.
10 Mr. Bagaric, you were in the camp from about
11 April until the 10th of June, you were on guard duty
12 during that entire period?
13 A. Well, it was not until June. I was there
14 since April, or from April until the beginning of May.
15 And I was wounded because I was waiting for transfer --
16 to be transferred to the defence lines in Podjele as a
18 Q. And when did that -- when you were wounded, I
19 thought you were wounded on the 10th of June, 1993?
20 A. That's correct. But at that time I was not
21 there as a guard. I was not guarding the prisoners.
22 Q. What was your duty at that time, at the time
23 you were wounded?
24 A. On the 10th of June, you mean?
25 Q. Yes, on the 10th of June.
1 A. I was an HVO soldier.
2 Q. So after May of 19 -- so your evidence is
3 that from April you were a member of the Domobran unit
4 'til May of 1993, and from May again you became a
5 member of the HVO?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. What was the nature of your duties as a
8 member of the HVO within the Kaonik facility?
9 A. I was a soldier.
10 Q. What were the nature of your duties as a
11 soldier within the Kaonik facility?
12 A. I was at the defence lines.
13 Q. So at that time, when you were a member of
14 the HVO, you did not perform any duties within the
15 Kaonik Prison facility?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, during your period, did you come across
18 a guard by the name of Zarko Petrovic within the Kaonik
20 A. I did not return there any longer, any more,
21 because there was no need for me to return.
22 Q. I understand that, Mr. Bagaric. But my
23 question is, during the time you were there in Kaonik,
24 that's from April to May, you remember a guard by the
25 name of Zarko Petrovic, who was also in the Kaonik
2 A. No. No. A guard?
3 Q. A guard by the name of Zarko Petrovic?
4 A. No. No.
5 Q. Was there anybody by the name of Zarko
6 Petrovic, a guard or a member of the HVO, a member of
7 the military police?
8 A. As a guard, no.
9 Q. My question was: As a member of the military
10 police did you know anybody by the name of Zarko
12 A. I heard that there was a person by that name,
13 but I don't know what was he doing there.
14 Q. And from what you heard, to which unit or to
15 which company did he belong to, Zarko Petrovic?
16 A. No, I wouldn't know that. I don't.
17 Q. But you heard that there was a Zarko Petrovic
18 who was in the Kaonik Prison facility, although you do
19 not know in what capacity he was there?
20 A. No, I even -- I didn't even hear that he was
21 in prison. But I know that there was a Zarko Petrovic
22 in Busovaca, a person by that name in Busovaca.
23 Q. I asked you whether you knew somebody by the
24 name of Zarko Petrovic in the Kaonik Prison facility,
25 as a guard of the Domobran unit or as a member of the
1 HVO, the military police or any other member of the
3 A. As you are saying now, no, no I don't.
4 Q. Do you know of a member of the HVO by the
5 name of Miro Maric, who was within the Kaonik facility
6 during that time that you worked there?
7 A. Oh, yes. I know that name, yes.
8 Q. And who was he?
9 A. He was a member of the military police.
10 Q. And as a member of the military police he was
11 stationed at the building by the gate, by the entrance
12 gate to the camp, was he?
13 A. Whether he was at the gate or not, I only saw
14 him there as a policeman.
15 Q. And what was he wearing at the time -- on the
16 occasion that you saw him? What uniform was he dressed
18 A. An HVO uniform.
19 Q. Did he carry any weapons on those occasions?
20 A. I didn't see that. I don't know. I didn't
21 see it.
22 Q. And do you also recall the name of Marko
23 Krilic, who was also in the prison facility during the
24 time you were there, either as a guard or a member of
25 the HVO?
1 A. Yes, yes, I know Marko. I know him and I saw
3 Q. And what was Marko Krilic?
4 A. An HVO policeman.
5 Q. And what was he wearing when he was in the
6 camp, in the prison facility?
7 A. The same clothes as any other HVO soldiers.
8 Q. And also Stipo Juric, did you know a person
9 by the name of Stipo Juric who was a member of the HVO?
10 A. Not as a member, but I know Stipo Juric, who
11 I believe testified here yet.
12 Q. Yes. I am not talking of the Stipo Juric who
13 testified yesterday who a member of the Domobrans. I
14 am asking whether you know of a Stipo Juric who was a
15 member of the HVO, who was in the Kaonik Prison
16 facility at the time you were there, from April to May
17 of 1993?
18 A. No, I don't know.
19 Q. Do you know Goran Medugorac, who was also in
20 the camp, in the prison facility during the time?
21 A. When I was there, there was no person by the
22 name of Medugorac. I am not aware of that.
23 Q. You are sure that name doesn't ring a bell in
24 your mind, Goran Medugorac?
25 A. I don't know him at all.
1 Q. Witness, you also said that on occasions you
2 used to bring alcohol to the camp facility, to the
3 prison facility.
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And you got permission before bringing
6 alcohol to the facility?
7 A. I didn't ask for it. I did not ask for
8 that. I would just put it in my pocket and off I go.
9 Q. You didn't think it was wrong to bring
10 alcohol to the prison facility, or illegal have brought
11 alcohol to the prison facility without permission?
12 A. I did not think about that at all.
13 Q. Mr. Bagaric, did you know Mr. Aleksovski --
14 when did you first meet Mr. Aleksovski?
15 A. When I first came to guard the civilians.
16 Q. You had not met Mr. Aleksovski before that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You did not know him from the time he was in
19 the Zenica penitentiary institution, nor did you know
20 him at the time he was in the Vatrostalna factory?
21 A. I didn't know it.
22 MR. MEDDEGODA: Thank you, Your Honour. No
23 further questions.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have
25 any additional questions for this witness?
1 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, the Defence has
2 no further questions of this witness.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Bagaric, I have some
4 questions for you. How many prisoners were there at
5 the prison when you were there, approximately?
6 A. I couldn't tell exactly, because while I was
7 there some went out digging, and how many went there, I
8 don't know.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, but I asked about
10 approximate figure, 10, 100, 1.000.
11 A. 40, 50, 60, maybe around there.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I did not hear the
13 response. My interpretation was between 45 and 60.
14 A. 40, 50, 60, more or less.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You took home only one
16 prisoner; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Why? Did you have a
19 special relationship with him? Why did you choose this
20 prisoner to take him home?
21 A. Because he asked me to.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Other prisoners never
23 requested this?
24 A. No. No. They did not. No one of them.
25 They did not. No, they didn't.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And if all 60 prisoners
2 requested that.
3 A. I would have helped them, yes.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Another question. Did
5 another colleague of yours also take prisoners home, if
6 you know?
7 A. I do not know exactly, but I don't think that
8 they did.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You told Mr. Mikulicic that
10 the civilian prisoners who were there for their own
11 safety and for your safety. Did I understand you
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: What did you mean when you
15 say your own safety? I can understand the safety of
16 the prisoners, but when you said your own safety, what
17 did you mean by that?
18 A. I wanted to say that these prisoners who were
19 of Muslim ethnic background were behind our backs, and
20 we shot at one another. That is, we shot at Muslims
21 and Muslims shot back at us. And I don't think that --
22 and the fact that they were behind us, well, maybe they
23 would have even signalled to them how many we were
24 where we were. And maybe they didn't like the fact
25 that the bullets would be flying, maybe, over us onto
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So that is why you are also
3 saying that the civilian prisoners who were there did
4 not -- did not need -- did not need to be guarded by
6 A. I don't know if it was necessary for them,
7 and there were also not guarded with weapons. If, when
8 we changed duties, we would give over that old rifle
9 that we had, so then people -- I remember an old
10 Russian automatic rifle with a drum on the top. So
11 that's what we had.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, Mr. Bagaric. I
13 believe that we have no further questions of you. We
14 thank you very much for coming here, and we wish you a
15 safe return to your place. Thank you, Mr. Bagaric.
16 (The witness withdrew)
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic.
18 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, the Defence
19 would like to call a fresh witness. However, we are in
20 a similar situation as yesterday. It's 15 past one.
21 The Defence would prefer to examine this witness
22 continuously and we again ask the Trial Chamber for a
23 decision on this.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We agree, and we would also
25 like to point out that we only had a single break
1 today, and I apologise for having forgotten about the
2 second break. So maybe it is just as well that we
3 finish a bit earlier today. Thank you very much and we
4 will see you tomorrow.
5 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
6 1:15 p.m., to the reconvened on
7 Thursday, the 1 day of July, 1998,
8 at 10.00 a.m.