1. 1 Tuesday, 25th August 1998

    2 --- Upon commencing at 9:05 a.m.

    3 (In open session).

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and

    5 gentlemen. Good morning to the technicians. Good

    6 morning to the interpreters. We shall now resume our

    7 work.

    8 Mr. Dubuisson, please, can you please call

    9 the case.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-14/1-T, the

    11 Prosecutor versus Zlatko Aleksovski.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much. Could

    13 we have the appearances please, Mr. Niemann.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours, please, my

    15 name is Mr. Niemann and I appear with my colleagues Mr.

    16 Meddegoda and Ms. Sutherland.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic for the

    18 Defence.

    19 MR. MIKULICIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

    20 My name is Mr. Goran Mikulicic and I appear for the

    21 Defence together with my colleague Mr. Joka.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic.

    23 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. The

    24 Defence calls witness Tomislav Rajic to the stand.

    25 (The witness entered court)

  2. 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I hear you.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (No translation).

    3 THE WITNESS: I am afraid I can't hear

    4 anything.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Mr. Rajic,

    6 can you hear me now? Thank you very much for coming

    7 and I do apologise for their technical problems. They

    8 often come up. You have to understand that there are

    9 some interpreters here, but we don't share the same

    10 language. You will now read out the solemn declaration

    11 that the usher is holding out for you.

    12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    14 truth.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Please sit down.

    16 THE WITNESS: Tomislav Rajic.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: For the moment being, Mr.

    18 Rajic, I will ask you to answer the questions put to

    19 you by Mr. Mikulicic for the Defence. Mr. Mikulicic,

    20 you have the floor.

    21 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

    22 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

    23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rajic. As Your Honours

    24 have already told you, I am going to ask you several

    25 questions as the Defence counsel and I would like to

  3. 1 ask you to answer them to the best of your ability.

    2 Mr. Rajic, could you please tell us where and

    3 when you were born?

    4 A. I was born on the 25th of May, 1959 in Vucija

    5 Gora of the Municipality of Travnik.

    6 Q. What are you by nationality?

    7 A. By nationality I am a Croat.

    8 Q. Are you religious, Mr. Rajic?

    9 A. Yes, I am, I am a believer.

    10 Q. Which denomination?

    11 A. The Roman Catholic.

    12 Q. Could you tell us where you went to primary

    13 school and what further education you had?

    14 A. I went to primary school in Travnik, where I

    15 also went to secondary school and I graduated from the

    16 faculty of law in Sarajevo.

    17 Q. Therefore, you graduated from the school of

    18 law?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Did you do military service in the former

    21 Yugoslav Peoples Army?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you recall when and where you did your

    24 military service?

    25 A. I did my military service in Bileca, in the

  4. 1 school for reserve officers from the 8th of August,

    2 1984 to the 5th of July, 1985.

    3 Q. When you left the school for reserve

    4 officers, did you receive a rank?

    5 A. Yes, I was a reserve lieutenant.

    6 Q. Could you tell us where you went to work

    7 after you graduated from the faculty of law?

    8 A. Well, I waited for a job for one year and

    9 then I, for one year, I worked in a firm dealing with

    10 agriculture production and then I went to the army,

    11 joined the army.

    12 Q. So, after graduation, you worked as a legal

    13 officer in a firm and then you did military service for

    14 one year. When you returned from the army, where were

    15 you employed?

    16 A. I once again went back to the same firm where

    17 I remained until the 4th of October, 1990, after which,

    18 I went to the municipality and became an assistant to

    19 the secretary for national defence of the municipal

    20 secretariat for Travnik -- for the defence secretariat

    21 in Travnik.

    22 Q. I am going to ask you, Mr. Rajic, to speak a

    23 little more slowly and make a break between the

    24 sentences, so that our interpreters can follow you

    25 better. Thank you.

  5. 1 So you told us that from 1990 you found

    2 employment in the municipal structures and that you

    3 were employed in duties in the secretariat for national

    4 defence. Can you tell us, please, Mr. Rajic, what kind

    5 of duties the secretariat for defence had? What was

    6 its basic function?

    7 A. Well, let me say at the outset that I came as

    8 an assistant, but on the 22nd of February, 1991, that

    9 is to say after the first elections, I was nominated

    10 for secretary. That is the number one man of the

    11 secretariat. The basic function of the municipal

    12 secretariat for national defence was to make records of

    13 all reservists and civil defence reservists, the duties

    14 for the conscripts, material obligations and serving in

    15 the centres of the OIO, which was, at the time

    16 reconnaissance, the reconnaissance service and the

    17 intelligence service. That means that these municipal

    18 secretariats were, in fact, a service for the other

    19 services and units of the Yugoslav Peoples Army, the

    20 units of Territorial Defence, the units for civil

    21 defence, which were general and specialised for the

    22 conscripts because, according to the regulations at

    23 that time, it was envisaged that certain services,

    24 certain firms, should continue their work in case of

    25 war and faced with the threat of war.

  6. 1 Q. Yes, I understand, thank you. So the basic

    2 function, in fact, of the body in which you were

    3 employed and whose chief you became was, in fact, to

    4 perform certain duties which were prescribed by law.

    5 By which law were these duties prescribed?

    6 A. Well, there were several laws governing our

    7 duties and responsibilities. The basic law, the basic

    8 two laws, according to which all of us in the former

    9 Yugoslavia was the law on all peoples defence and

    10 social service protection. And the second law was

    11 conscription, the law on conscription regarding

    12 recruitment and record, the keeping of records on the

    13 reserve formations. And let me also say that there was

    14 some other regulations which were of lesser importance

    15 than these two laws, which further regulated in greater

    16 detail the various regions and areas to which these two

    17 laws pertained.

    18 Q. Yes, we'll say more about that later on, Mr.

    19 Rajic, thank you. Would you now please tell us in

    20 conformity with the law on conscripts, what was this

    21 law and who were the conscripts? To whom did it

    22 refer?

    23 A. Well, it was not only the law governing

    24 conscripts, there were five responsibilities: one was

    25 the military responsibility, the professional

  7. 1 responsibility, the responsibility to serve in the

    2 units of civil defence units or for materiel donations

    3 and in the OIO services that I mentioned earlier on.

    4 Q. Mr. Rajic, could you please repeat the second

    5 duty, because I am not sure that it was introduced into

    6 the text?

    7 A. It was the working duties, the service

    8 duties. And that is the first duty after the conscript

    9 duty. And this service duty envisaged work in definite

    10 companies, public organisations and institutions which

    11 would come into function in case of war and when the

    12 threat of war was imminent, but it was also a service

    13 responsibility for the formation of certain platoons

    14 and taking part in the assessing of the terrain and

    15 fortifications for the terrain. In mopping up

    16 operations and all for the armed forces at a given

    17 point.

    18 Q. Later on we'll come back to that, Mr. Rajic,

    19 and we'll speak about it in greater detail. I would

    20 just like to present a general picture of the

    21 situation.

    22 So you said that you began performing these

    23 functions in 1990 and are you still performing those

    24 duties or do you have some other duties to perform

    25 today?

  8. 1 A. I worked until the 1st of January, 1994, as

    2 the head of department for defence and at the present

    3 point in time I am performing the duties of the

    4 president of the municipal assembly in Travnik.

    5 Q. In view of your formal training and

    6 education, you have graduated from the faculty of law

    7 and in view of your work experience, we can say that

    8 you are well acquainted with the laws that we're

    9 discussing and the regulations that we're discussing?

    10 A. Yes, I did know the laws and regulations very

    11 well, but let me say that more than four years have

    12 elapsed since that time, so I am not well acquainted

    13 with the details, but I do have a general overview of

    14 the laws and regulations that exist.

    15 Q. Yes, the Trial Chamber will hear that later

    16 on.

    17 Mr. Rajic, let us now go back to the events

    18 of the end of 1992 and the first half of 1993 in the

    19 region. I have in mind the events, the relationship

    20 between the Croatian and Muslim population in

    21 particular. At that time, the war had already started

    22 in Bosnia-Herzegovina. On the one hand we had the

    23 attackers in the form of the Yugoslav Peoples Army and

    24 the Serbian formations. On the other hand we had the

    25 defence set up in which the citizens of the Croatian

  9. 1 and Muslim citizens took part. Can you give us briefly

    2 an overview of the events at that particular time?

    3 A. Well, the war in the region where I was

    4 located began by a Serbian attack on Travnik. And

    5 Travnik was the centre of the Lasva River Valley on the

    6 19th of April, 1992, with an attack on a settlement,

    7 Turbe.

    8 With the beginning of the war in Slovenia and

    9 later on in Croatia, it was quite evident because the

    10 units of the JNA withdrew from those regions and they

    11 came to the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to the

    12 barracks that were in that region as they were in

    13 Travnik, in Busovaca and the other barrack locations.

    14 And we, the Croatian people, who were there in that

    15 location, we knew and we felt that if the war was going

    16 to be as it had been in Croatia and if the Serbs had

    17 pretensions towards Croatia, then in no event would

    18 they leave Bosnia-Herzegovina alone. And we,

    19 therefore, tried to prepare ourselves. And the first

    20 thing that we did was to erect the facilities for the

    21 reserve police, the units for the reserve police.

    22 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, Mr. Rajic.

    23 You said that the Croatian people started to prepare

    24 because they felt that there would be a conflict, which

    25 in Croatia was already underway. Could you tell us

  10. 1 about the situation with the Muslim population? Did

    2 they also undergo preparations? Did you have contacts

    3 with the Muslim population?

    4 A. The period I am talking about, I mean

    5 preparations through joint institutions. That is to

    6 say, there were members of the Muslim people as well

    7 because they too felt that war was imminent and,

    8 therefore, they tried to organise, we tried to organise

    9 ourselves to meet that event.

    10 And then, when the first attack took place on

    11 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, this was sometime

    12 in September 1991 and it was an attack on the village

    13 of Ravno, the representatives, the leadership of the

    14 Muslim people, who were in the peaks of power, said

    15 that this was not their war. But with the beginning of

    16 1992, in Travnik, and I say right up to 1992, we worked

    17 together in one way or another. We had the same

    18 organs, institutions, we tried to pool our efforts.

    19 And if the secretary for national defence was a Croat,

    20 for example, the commander of the Territorial Defence,

    21 was a Muslim. So we tried to divide up the duties and

    22 we were conditioned.

    23 However, in the spring of 1992, when the

    24 first, but fairly numerous people, groups, Muslims from

    25 the Bosnian/Krajina area began to arrive, the refugees,

  11. 1 there was a sort of demographic unbalance, the

    2 demographic balance was upset, which had existed until

    3 that time. And the humanitarian assistance began to

    4 arrive, individuals carrying humanitarian assistance.

    5 But then we saw they were members of the Mujahedin, in

    6 fact. And they brought with them some new ideas to the

    7 region where these were not prevalent. And so this

    8 upset our cooperation and it was severed later on.

    9 Quite simply they felt that they could do without us.

    10 And, as I say, this upset our cooperation and the

    11 events that followed took place.

    12 Q. Now we're talking about mid-1992, aren't we?

    13 Do you recall, Mr. Rajic, whether at that particular

    14 time, the ruling powers, the political powers of

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina declared a state of war?

    16 A. A state of war was proclaimed at the

    17 beginning of March 1992.

    18 Q. So, from March 1992 onwards?

    19 A. No, at the beginning of April, 1992 with the

    20 attack on Sarajevo.

    21 Q. So we can say from April 1992 onwards, de

    22 facto, on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina a state

    23 of war was proclaimed; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You mentioned, Mr. Rajic, that a considerable

  12. 1 number of Muslims of the Muslim population came to the

    2 area of the Lasva River Valley because it was compelled

    3 to flee in the face of the Yugoslav Peoples Army and

    4 the Serbian military units. They fled to the area,

    5 could you tell us how many people?

    6 A. Well, many people passed through Travnik.

    7 Over 120.000 refugees and some of them, many of them

    8 remained in Travnik.

    9 Q. And so, in this region there was a disbalance

    10 in the population ratio compared to the pre-war

    11 situation; is that correct?

    12 A. Yes, and this disbalance was drastic.

    13 Q. Could you tell us, please, Mr. Rajic, were

    14 the people who came to these areas where they never

    15 lived before, where did they live? Where did they go

    16 to? Where were they put up?

    17 A. Well, in the first wave, they were sent to

    18 collective centres. That is to say, schools,

    19 kindergartens, two kindergartens in town, sports halls

    20 and most of them, not many, but most of them were sent

    21 to the different villages, surrounding villages, and

    22 they stayed with the people of the area, the villages.

    23 So that the number, the population doubled in the

    24 villages around Travnik and Novi Travnik and in the

    25 Lasva River Valley itself as a whole.

  13. 1 Q. Can you tell us, please, Mr. Rajic, according

    2 to the best of your recollections, what the

    3 relationship was between the Muslim and Croatian

    4 population in the area before the war and what the

    5 relationship was at the beginning of 1993?

    6 A. Well, before the beginning of the war,

    7 according to the 1991 Muslim census, there was a slight

    8 advantage on the Muslim side. There were more Muslims

    9 than Croats, but a very slight majority. Including the

    10 Serbs, they just had a relative majority and it was 4

    11 to 5 per cent more. According to the '91 population

    12 census.

    13 However, with the arrival these refugees

    14 and -- but as you know a population census is one

    15 thing. The Croats from this area are well-known as

    16 people who work in the countries of Western Europe. So

    17 that if we look at the military capable populace in

    18 certain municipalities, the ratio was 1 to 5 to the

    19 advantage of the Muslims, Bosnia Muslims.

    20 Q. Yes, I understand. You mentioned that at the

    21 beginning on the side of the Muslim population, there

    22 was the prevalent idea that the conflicts with the JNA

    23 were not conflicts in which they ought to take part; is

    24 that correct?

    25 A. Well, yes, in the leadership that was

  14. 1 correct. However the people felt a little

    2 differently. Very early on they began to organise

    3 through the patriotic front which was set up, but

    4 unfortunately, it was based on religion more. It took

    5 a religious basis for its establishment and so very

    6 early on, parallelly, while we worked in the joint

    7 institutions, they had their patriotic front, which was

    8 religiously based, formed for themselves and for their

    9 purposes, and would form detachments later on which

    10 would become military detachments.

    11 Q. Does that mean that in that way they, in

    12 fact, set up parallel organs of power and authority in

    13 the military sense?

    14 A. Yes, whether they were parallel organs of

    15 authority, I don't know, but they were parallel,

    16 military formations.

    17 Q. Do you remember Mr. Rajic, when these

    18 conflicts came out in the open between the Croats and

    19 the Muslims in that area, when they obviously came to

    20 disagree?

    21 A. Everyone who had any sense in his mind had to

    22 fear an open conflict and war. There were certain

    23 incidents, and most of us thought that it would end

    24 with incidents, because that war, that conflict suited

    25 the Croats and the Muslim Bosniaks least of all. And

  15. 1 this open conflict was proceeded by quite a few

    2 incidents of this nature.

    3 For example, in Travnik, in 1992, in October,

    4 although we were in separate units, we went together to

    5 help Jajce in Travnik, the commander of the municipal

    6 staff of Travnik, Colonel Ivica Stojak was killed. And

    7 then I think on the 17th of March, two members of the

    8 HVO were killed, Ivo Juric and Dragan Dzandara, if I'm

    9 not mistaken. And then in Travnik on the eve of

    10 Easter, 8th or 9th of April 1993, all Croat flags were

    11 burned, all of those that were flying on the occasion

    12 of the holiday. And a woman was killed in her

    13 apartment on that day, I think it was the 20th of

    14 April.

    15 Q. So, there were quite a few incidents?

    16 A. Yes, incidents. I'm talking about the ones

    17 that I'm very familiar with. But there were quite a

    18 few such incidents in these municipalities.

    19 So, there was also a road of salvation, as we

    20 called it, that went through the mountains; and before

    21 the fighting, five Croats simply disappeared there.

    22 They were killed.

    23 Q. Tell me, Mr. Rajic, to the best of your

    24 recollection, when did an all out attack by the Muslim

    25 military forces occur in the Busovaca area against the

  16. 1 Croat units?

    2 A. To the best of my recollection this was in

    3 January 1993, around the 20th, perhaps a bit after the

    4 20th. I don't know exactly, but I know it was January.

    5 In Busovaca, even before that -- or rather in Travnik,

    6 before that, in '92, there was a conflict, and later it

    7 was in Busovaca that these hostilities broke out.

    8 Q. Could you tell us, in your opinion, why did

    9 the Muslim military forces attack the area of Busovaca?

    10 A. It is hard to say why. Probably, so as to

    11 capture this area. Simply to put under their control

    12 everything that might hamper someone's intentions at a

    13 later stage.

    14 Q. Also there are some communication lines going

    15 through that area of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    16 A. Yes, this is the most important communication

    17 line going through this area, that is the communication

    18 line Jajce-Travnik-Zenica, and it also goes towards

    19 Sarajevo. And at any rate, from a military and

    20 strategic point of view, this is an exceptionally

    21 important area.

    22 Q. Am I mistaken, Mr. Rajic, if I say that this

    23 communication line actually links together the

    24 territories that are predominantly populated with

    25 Muslims?

  17. 1 A. Well, it does, yes. On the eastern side, so

    2 to speak; Tusla, Kakanj, Zenica, that area. And this

    3 is populated by a Muslim majority population, but this

    4 communication line also proceeds towards Bugojno and

    5 Vakuf where in Donje Vakuf, for example, the Muslims

    6 were an absolute majority and in Bugojno they were a

    7 relative majority.

    8 At any rate, for Bosnia-Herzegovina this

    9 communication line was crucial in terms of east-west

    10 communications.

    11 Q. I understand. So, at that time, during these

    12 events, you said that you worked as the head of the

    13 security for a national defence, and later it came to

    14 be known as the Department of Defence.

    15 What was your main function, your main task

    16 as you held this job during the war? And may I remind

    17 you that in April, 1992, a state of war was declared on

    18 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    19 A. The main function of all secretariats or

    20 departments of defence was to organise units, military

    21 units, and people who were supposed to be involved in

    22 work duty so that all of this could function, all

    23 together. So, it was our job to seek military

    24 conscripts and to give them their exact war

    25 assignments.

  18. 1 Q. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but as this

    2 function was to be carried out, there were certain

    3 lists, certain records that were kept for the

    4 secretariats in the various municipalities; is that

    5 true?

    6 A. That is true. All military abled men, those

    7 who were capable of serving in the armed forces and

    8 those who weren't, had their files with their basic

    9 data, name, surname, date of birth, place of birth,

    10 whether he was capable or incapable of military

    11 service, their address, their current address, their

    12 permanent address; so, at every point in time we had to

    13 know where each and every man was at a given time,

    14 theoretically.

    15 But of course there were always some people

    16 whose whereabouts were unfamiliar to us, but these

    17 records were very important. You cannot claim that

    18 they were one hundred per cent accurate, but at any

    19 rate, they were very good.

    20 Q. Tell me, Mr. Rajic, according to the law in

    21 force at that time, during what period in one's life

    22 would one have this kind of military duty?

    23 A. At the age of 17 a man would be registered in

    24 military records. When he would turn 18, then he would

    25 undergo a thorough medical examination to see whether

  19. 1 he was capable of military service, and then he would

    2 be assigned the service where he would serve, whether

    3 it would be the navy or the army, et cetera.

    4 Then they would be sent to do their military

    5 service. And as a rule each and every one of these men

    6 would be assigned to a reserve unit, either the

    7 Territorial Defence or the JNA, it was all the same,

    8 really.

    9 Q. I'm sorry, until what age did this military

    10 service duty go?

    11 A. Sixty, until the age of 60. When a man would

    12 turn 60, then his files would be sent to archives. As

    13 far as work duty is concerned, that would be assumed at

    14 the age of 16. And men up to the age of 65 were --

    15 they had to take work duty. And on for women this

    16 obligation went up to the age of 55, but for men until

    17 the age of 65.

    18 Q. When you're speaking about work duty and

    19 persons who were registered as people who had to carry

    20 out work duty, this is part of one's military

    21 obligations; isn't it?

    22 A. It is part of the war assignments.

    23 Q. Could you explain how this is part of war

    24 assignments?

    25 A. All of this was aimed at the better

  20. 1 functioning of the military forces. So, this was

    2 supposed to help the military units all together.

    3 Q. Mr. Rajic, in your introduction you mentioned

    4 to us that at that time, on the territory of Bosnia and

    5 Herzegovina there were certain regulations that were in

    6 force in this particular area.

    7 Tell me, were these regulations in force

    8 after the elections that were held and after the

    9 independence of Bosnia was proclaimed?

    10 Was this a new set of regulations, or was

    11 this a set of regulations that was in force in the

    12 former Yugoslavia and did the Republic of Bosnia and

    13 Herzegovina simply take them over like other republics

    14 did?

    15 A. These were regulations in force in the

    16 territory of the entire former Yugoslavia, and after

    17 that republican regulations were passed that regulated

    18 this area, but perhaps in greater detail. And after

    19 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was not only

    20 these regulations, but all other regulations governing

    21 other areas of life that were also taken over from the

    22 former Yugoslavia, because the parliament did not

    23 really have an opportunity to pass new laws. So all of

    24 this was taken over.

    25 Q. I understand. So, you said that the main

  21. 1 laws in this area was the law on total national defence

    2 and social self protection and the law on conscription;

    3 is that right?

    4 A. Yes, that's right.

    5 Q. However, you also mentioned that on the basis

    6 of these basic laws, the so-called bylaws were passed

    7 regulating this particular area in greater detail; is

    8 that correct?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Tell me, Mr. Rajic, I see that you have

    11 brought with you some papers. So, we currently ask the

    12 Court to allow the witness to use these papers during

    13 his testimony so that it could be as accurate as

    14 possible. Is that possible?

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Of course it is possible.

    16 I think there is no objection from the Prosecution; is

    17 there, Mr. Neimann?

    18 MR. NIEMANN: I assume these are the papers

    19 that Mr. Mikulicic has shown us before. If they are,

    20 there is no problem. But if they are new papers, we

    21 haven't seen them.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay. Mr. Mikulicic, can

    23 you confirm that these documents are those that you

    24 showed to the Prosecution before the hearing?

    25 MR. MIKULICIC: Well, no, Your Honour. These

  22. 1 are not documents that the Defence wishes to tender as

    2 evidence for this court. These are simply notes to

    3 remind the witness of what he wishes to say during his

    4 testimony. So, these are not documents that the

    5 Defence wishes to tender as evidence. This is simply

    6 to remind the witness of what he wishes to say.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Then I think you can use

    8 them, Mr. Mikulicic. Please proceed.

    9 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    10 Q. So, Mr. Rajic, we were talking about some of

    11 these bylaws that were passed on the basis of the laws

    12 that were in force at that particular point in time and

    13 that were taken over from the legislation of the former

    14 Yugoslavia. Could you tell me what these documents

    15 are, what these laws are, and what was regulated on the

    16 basis of these regulations, and in what way?

    17 A. The basic law in this area was the law on

    18 total national defence, which was published in the

    19 official Gazette of the FSRY. So this is a federal law

    20 published in the official Gazette, number 21/82.

    21 On the basis of that law, republican law was

    22 passed, the law of the Socialist Republic of

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina on total national defence, which was

    24 published in the official Gazette, number 3/84.

    25 Amendments to this republican law were

  23. 1 published in the official Gazette of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    2 on number 17/87.

    3 However, on the basis of this federal law a

    4 decree was passed on organising work duty and

    5 implementing it, related to tasks within the armed

    6 forces of the SFRY.

    7 Q. Could you please speak slower for the sake of

    8 the interpreters?

    9 A. So, this was published in the official

    10 Gazette of the FSRY, number 35/83. And this decree

    11 regulates in detail the question of work duty, what it

    12 includes, et cetera.

    13 Q. So, Mr. Rajic, if I have understood you

    14 correctly, on the basis of these laws, a bylaw was also

    15 passed which explains in detail how work duty is

    16 carried out and what its purpose is.

    17 Could you tell us why it was necessary at all

    18 to establish units involving work duty?

    19 A. Well, simply for the following reason: To

    20 carry out those duties that soldiers with guns in their

    21 hands cannot do. These are units that helped, I mean

    22 people who had work duty helped these military units

    23 with the aim of successfully organising defence or

    24 attack, depending on what was in question at that

    25 particular point in time.

  24. 1 Q. Thank you. So, these work duty units carried

    2 out some kind of work, which is quite obvious. And

    3 what does this bylaw say? What kind of work was to be

    4 carried out by these units?

    5 A. The best thing would be for me to quote this

    6 particular text.

    7 Q. Yes, but speak slowly for the sake of the

    8 interpreters.

    9 A. Article 6 of this federal decree says -- .

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Neimann.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: It seems we have moved from

    12 what I understood to be notes, which I didn't seek to

    13 inspect at the time, into now referring to actual

    14 text. And I think, Your Honours, I would like to at

    15 least examine the documents that the witness is

    16 referring to before he does that.

    17 I assume they are in his own language, but I

    18 would like to see them before he quotes from them,

    19 unless Mr. Mikulicic seeks to lay the foundation of

    20 it. It's a bit of a disadvantage here when the witness

    21 is referring to material that is in front of him which

    22 purports to be presumably some sort of a law and none

    23 of us have access to that or know what its contents

    24 are.

    25 So my objection is based on this ground:

  25. 1 Either Mr. Mikulicic lays a better foundation for the

    2 reference to the material, or alternatively we're given

    3 an opportunity to inspect it, Your Honours. That's my

    4 submission.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I think that maybe

    6 Mr. Mikulicic could make a copy of some of these

    7 documents and these could help you, Mr. Neimann, to

    8 follow the sayings of the witness.

    9 MR. NIEMANN: I would be grateful, Your

    10 Honour.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, what do you

    12 think of my proposal? Is it possible for you to make a

    13 copy of the text that you are referring to so it will

    14 help the Prosecution follow our work?

    15 Actually maybe this would be a good time to

    16 take a break. And maybe, Mr. Mikulicic, during this

    17 break you could make a copy of these documents. The

    18 registry will of course help you in every way. Maybe

    19 this is the best way to proceed. We shall take a

    20 20-minute break. Thank you very much.

    21 --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.

    22 --- On resuming at 10.19 a.m.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, have you

    24 managed to solve your problem?

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours. I am

  26. 1 very grateful for Your Honours assistance.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, you may now

    3 proceed.

    4 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

    5 Before I continue my examination of the witness, let me

    6 give a brief explanation regarding the documents. We

    7 are discussing a document which the witness has brought

    8 with him with the intention of recalling regulations

    9 and norms from that time. I saw these documents

    10 yesterday and so I did not have enough time to prepare

    11 it and to comply with procedure, Court procedure.

    12 However, if the Trial Chamber agrees and if

    13 my learned colleague the Prosecutor agrees, the

    14 document that we have before us I would tender as

    15 evidence and I should like to ask the secretariat to

    16 translate the document, if possible. I think that

    17 would be the best way of having the document tendered

    18 into evidence in view of the fact that we are

    19 discussing it.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honours, we have no

    21 difficulty with that. The only position I would ask

    22 for is that it not be formerly tendered until we've

    23 seen the translation of it. I don't expect there to be

    24 any objection to it. I have had it explained to me

    25 what it roughly is about. As a matter of formality, I

  27. 1 wouldn't be likely to be consenting to the tender of a

    2 document I don't know the contents of. Subject to

    3 that, I think the course proposed by Mr. Mikulicic is

    4 very appropriate in the circumstances.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: The Trial Chamber agrees to

    6 this proposal. Mr. Mikulicic, you may now proceed.

    7 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    8 Q. Therefore, Mr. Rajic, having dealt with

    9 formalities, we are discussing a decree on the

    10 organisation and execution of work duties in connection

    11 with the tasks and duties for the needs of the armed

    12 forces of the Socialist Federal Republic of

    13 Yugoslavia. You said that this decree was published in

    14 the official gazette of Yugoslavia and that the number

    15 was 35/83. And this you called the Federal Regulation

    16 of the Former Yugoslavia.

    17 Is it true, Mr. Rajic, that this former

    18 federal regulation, with the independence of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was taken over as a republican

    20 regulation, a republican decree?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Could you tell us, please, Mr. Rajic, you

    23 mentioned Article 4 of the decree. Could you tell us

    24 the purpose of the formation of units with work

    25 duties?

  28. 1 A. I think that Articles 4, 6 and 7 speak of

    2 these work duties. And so I should like to quote

    3 Article 4, please.

    4 "Units and their work duties for the needs

    5 of the armed forces in war are organised in peace by a

    6 decree of the competent municipal organ, issued on the

    7 basis of a request by the competent military

    8 territorial organ.

    9 In wartime, if this is demanded by needs for

    10 the combat activities and other requirements of the

    11 armed forces and the competent municipal organ is not

    12 able to issue orders in the sense of Point 1 of this

    13 article, the units of the work duties are organised

    14 according to an order of the chief of the competent

    15 military territorial organ or by order of the military

    16 commander holding the position of commander or of that

    17 rank or of a higher rank. In the further text he is

    18 referred to as commander."

    19 And that is the end of the quotation of

    20 Article 4.

    21 Q. Mr. Rajic, could you explain to us as

    22 somebody working with these kind of affairs and

    23 somebody who applied this decree, what that means in

    24 practical terms?

    25 A. In practical terms it means something that I

  29. 1 have already said. And that is that in peacetime, the

    2 municipal institutions for defence on the basis of a

    3 request by the military organs fills up and calls up

    4 for their purposes certain recruits when the need

    5 arises. However, in wartime, when all these links have

    6 been severed, these lines of communication have been

    7 severed or interrupted, because this was envisaged for

    8 a war with a foreign enemy, fighting a foreign enemy.

    9 Where we severed all the polls that existed in a

    10 municipality, then we were no longer able to act in

    11 this particular manner as was regulated in Article 1 of

    12 this decree, but we had to make shift and adjust

    13 ourselves to the existing situation.

    14 And, therefore, the commanders of the

    15 military units who needed recruits for work duties,

    16 specific work duties, they would seek ways and means of

    17 coming by these recruits and the simplest way was to

    18 use the military police, which would round up or

    19 collect these people and bring them in for war duties.

    20 Q. Yes, I understand. Mr. Rajic, what kind of

    21 duties and tasks did the units of the work duty,

    22 formations were they engaged in? What did these units

    23 do and to what purpose?

    24 A. Well, let me quote part of Article 6, that

    25 will explain it best, perhaps. And that is that the

  30. 1 work units, in performing their tasks and duties for

    2 the needs and purposes of the armed forces, can be

    3 engaged in the execution of the following tasks:

    4 "Number one, for performing work to

    5 fortifications and dealing with roads, railway lines,

    6 airports, other helodroms, ports, other ports,

    7 harbours, hydrodroms and so on. To build objects for

    8 war facilities for water and for water stations and

    9 water works. To camouflage water facilities and water

    10 supply systems. To camouflage facilities and ongoing

    11 civil engineering work. And to supply points of

    12 crossing waters and other waterways. To build up and

    13 maintain secret storehouses, bases, dugouts, hospitals

    14 and other sanitary first aid institution. And other

    15 engineering work in the regions and zones of where the

    16 combat activities exist in order to ensure the more

    17 successful performance of the war work duties of the

    18 armed forces."

    19 And let me also quote Point 7 of the same

    20 article. That is; "to execute other work duties for

    21 the needs of armed forces." End of quotation.

    22 Q. Therefore, in this article, taxitively (sic)

    23 speaking, it enumerates all the tasks and duties which

    24 the working duties imply?

    25 A. Yes, but in Point 7, it is stated that if

  31. 1 other needs arise, depending on the commander of the

    2 particular unit, the commander can use his men for some

    3 other duties which have not been enumerated in that

    4 particular article.

    5 Q. Let us recall that we're talking about the

    6 period when a state of war was proclaimed on the

    7 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Article 6 states,

    8 among others, that; "the work duty units performed

    9 duties along the directions and in the regions of

    10 combat activity, which ensure the successful execution

    11 of the war tasks of the units of the armed forces."

    12 Does this formulation allow for the possibility of the

    13 work duty units being used for fortification work to

    14 dig trenches, dugouts and so on?

    15 A. Yes, this is what emanates from the

    16 definition that you just gave us.

    17 Q. Does it also follow from the text of the law,

    18 the conclusion --

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (No translation).

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, at this stage, I

    21 am going to object to this witness being called upon to

    22 give an interpretation of the law as such. What I will

    23 not object to is him being asked questions of how this

    24 law was interpreted at the particular time as a matter

    25 of fact. So if the witness is asked whether this law

  32. 1 was interpreted to commit trench digging, for example,

    2 at that particular point in time and place, I won't

    3 object to that.

    4 But if this witness is being called upon

    5 generally to interpret the law and say as a matter of

    6 law, it is to be interpreted this way, then I object to

    7 that and I object to it on two grounds: One is that it

    8 is a conclusion that may ultimately fall to Your

    9 Honours to determine. And, secondly, I don't believe

    10 this witness has been adequately qualified for that

    11 purpose. That's my objection, Your Honour.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic.

    13 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. Mikulicic, I fully accept

    14 the attitude of my distinguished colleague, Mr.

    15 Niemann. And it is not the defence's intention to ask

    16 the witness to give a general explanation of a legal

    17 matter. But it is our intention to ask the witness as

    18 somebody who applied those regulations to see how these

    19 were applied in practice. Because it was the witness

    20 who by virtue of his professional function applied

    21 those rules and regulations.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So I think we all agree

    23 with what you've just said, Mr. Mikulicic, therefore,

    24 you may proceed. There is no problem, I think.

    25 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, I shall in

  33. 1 future try to avoid questions which would be an of a

    2 generally formulated nature and I will pose them in

    3 connection with the functions performed by the

    4 witness. I think that will satisfy my learned

    5 colleague.

    6 Q. So then, Mr. Rajic, let me ask you the

    7 following question: Did you, in the war events of

    8 1993, on the basis of this decree, which we have

    9 quoted, did you call up recruits for their work

    10 duties? That is to say, to use them for digging

    11 trenches, dugouts and fortifications in the war zones

    12 for the needs of the armed forces?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. You told us, Mr. Rajic, that when

    15 circumstances allowed, this invitation was done by

    16 courier, by telephone or in some other way, you would

    17 call up the recruits in that way?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. If the war situation and circumstances did

    20 not allow for this, then you sent military police to

    21 collect these individuals; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Mr. Rajic, I should like to ask you to try to

    24 tell me from your practice whether individual

    25 commanders of parts of the battlefield, parts of the

  34. 1 line, frontline, did they also call up individuals for

    2 digging trenches and fortification, did they also call

    3 up these work duty recruits?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. In which way? Do you know how they did

    6 this?

    7 A. If we were dealing with -- for example,

    8 defence was organised in our region according to

    9 different sectors, so there was a certain area which

    10 was covered by a commander for several units, the

    11 commander of several units. And the commander would

    12 have to, as a rule, go to the commander of the brigade

    13 and he would ask for a certain number of individuals

    14 that he needed to perform certain work duties. And

    15 then, the commander of the brigade, via the military

    16 police, would go out and get these conscripts.

    17 Q. Mr. Rajic, from your experience, although the

    18 term "work duty" implies the conclusion that it is not

    19 a voluntary duty, voluntary work, was there prescribed

    20 by law any sanctions for individuals who would not

    21 comply with this invitation, with this request?

    22 A. Yes, this was a violation of that duty.

    23 Q. Refusal was a violation of the duty. Were

    24 there any sanctions for that violation?

    25 A. Well, in peacetime, this would be qualified

  35. 1 as a violation and there would be something, you would

    2 have to pay a fine, they would have to pay a fine or go

    3 to prison for a short time. But, in wartime, fines

    4 were, of course, completely obliterated, and so, for

    5 any violation of work duty regulations and requests, we

    6 had other types of sanctions. First of all, we would

    7 talk to the individual. We would explain to him that

    8 that was his work duty. If he continued to refuse,

    9 then he would be detained. And this was determined by

    10 the various commanders in the units, the length of

    11 detention and so on.

    12 Q. Do you know how long this detention could

    13 last for failure to comply with the work duties?

    14 A. Depending on the rank of the commander,

    15 commanders could issue penalties of 3 days' detention

    16 period. That with was the lowest for company

    17 commanders. And brigade commanders could issue 10 to

    18 15 days' detention periods.

    19 Q. I understand, Mr. Rajic. So you're talking

    20 about the situation when a state of war was proclaimed,

    21 right? Tell me, although you spoke of that during your

    22 introductory remarks, but perhaps you could explain it

    23 to us in greater detail now. According to what

    24 criterion were certain people involved in the armed

    25 forces serving with a rifle in their hand, to speak

  36. 1 figuratively, and according to which criterion did

    2 other people who did not carry a rifle in their hand

    3 have work duty?

    4 A. In the war in our country, which is of a

    5 special nature, I think, it was necessary to be fit

    6 from the point of view from health to serve in the

    7 armed forces with a rifle in the hand. So there were

    8 some people who were not fit for full military duty,

    9 but they were nevertheless involved. In the work duty

    10 units, there were elderly people, primarily. Those who

    11 were not fit for fighting.

    12 However, in these units, in the work duty

    13 units, there were people who belonged to different

    14 ethnic groups and who happened to be in a certain

    15 region and who did not wish to participate in armed

    16 conflicts with the members of their own ethnic group.

    17 And they certainly would not, therefore, be taken by

    18 the commanders of military units into these units.

    19 Because, in that case, there would be a possibility of

    20 subversive activity within the unit itself.

    21 Q. I understand. Mr. Rajic, tell us, when

    22 certain work duty units were composed, did one take

    23 into account the possible ethnic composition of such

    24 units?

    25 A. I don't think that particular attention was

  37. 1 paid to ethnic composition of these units. People

    2 simply had to look at what was available at that point

    3 in time for such work duty.

    4 Q. I understand. Are you familiar with the

    5 Kaonik facility near Busovaca?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Do you know what the purpose of this facility

    8 was before the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke

    9 out?

    10 A. Before it was a facility of the Yugoslav

    11 Peoples Army.

    12 Q. Do you know what happened after the JNA left

    13 the area and left this particular facility? What

    14 happened to the facility itself?

    15 A. In it, the district prison was organised, I

    16 believe. That is what it was called. It was really a

    17 prison.

    18 Q. Do you know, Mr. Rajic, that in that district

    19 military prison, within this facility, in the first

    20 half of 1993, Muslim civilians from the area of

    21 Busovaca were interned, do you know anything about

    22 that?

    23 A. I know it from hearsay, but I really don't

    24 know for sure. I was in Travnik, after all. I heard

    25 that Muslims were detained there too. But I know that

  38. 1 we would primarily take disciplinary action against

    2 disobedient people of our own as I already told you.

    3 Q. Did you ever come to visit this facility?

    4 A. I came only in 1995.

    5 Q. And then, I imagine that in 1993, you did not

    6 have the opportunity of meeting the warden of this

    7 facility or am I mistaken?

    8 A. No, you're not, I didn't.

    9 Q. Just tell us one more thing, Mr. Rajic, in

    10 view of the nature of the office you held, I believe

    11 that you were familiar with the armed units in that

    12 area and that you had contact with them?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. In these contacts, did you ever see some

    15 soldiers who had insignia of the Croat army, HV?

    16 A. No.

    17 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Mr. Rajic, the

    18 Defence has no further questions.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann. Do you wish

    20 to put any questions to the witness?

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

    22 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:

    23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rajic. Mr. Rajic, I wanted

    24 to see if you could assist me in clarifying the

    25 structure of things in terms of the defence of the

  39. 1 former Yugoslavia that under the Socialist Federal

    2 Republic of Yugoslavia first. You were asked some

    3 questions about that by my colleague, Mr. Mikulicic.

    4 Now, I take it, it is correct, is it not,

    5 that there was the federal department of defence, if I

    6 could call it that, which was the federal department in

    7 the socialist federal republic; is that right?

    8 And then there came down to be a component of

    9 the defence department, which was in the individual

    10 republics themselves, in this case, it was the Republic

    11 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And then it descended right then down to a

    14 municipal level and there was a component of defence in

    15 the municipal level and that was the position that

    16 you're in?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Now, what was the line, if any, of reporting

    19 in this process? Did you report to the department of

    20 defence in Sarajevo, being that of the Republic of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Or did you report directly to the

    22 socialist federal republic in, presumably, located in

    23 Belgrade?

    24 A. Reports were directly given to the military

    25 district, as it was called then, in Sarajevo.

  40. 1 Q. I see. And the military district, that was a

    2 federal district, was it?

    3 A. It was at the level of the republic, but it

    4 was a federal organ because it is the federal organs

    5 that are concerned as far as the army is involved.

    6 Q. Of course. And the army at that stage, now I

    7 am talking, really, say up to 1990. The army at that

    8 stage was the JNA?

    9 And the Territorial Defence is something that

    10 was much more local to yourself. Did you have any role

    11 or connection on a municipal level to the Territorial

    12 Defence?

    13 A. Yes, at that time I was secretary for

    14 national defence, and my secretariat was supposed to

    15 serve the Territorial Defence units as well as the JNA

    16 units, the civilian defence units, all of it in keeping

    17 with the military obligations I mentioned.

    18 Q. Now, I take it that when it came to

    19 mobilisation of the Territorial Defence, except in

    20 areas where you were calling on them for assistance in

    21 civil defence matters, that was not a matter that could

    22 be decided at the municipal level; am I correct in

    23 that?

    24 A. I didn't understand you.

    25 Q. I'll repeat my question. When it came to the

  41. 1 mobilisation of the Territorial Defence, was that

    2 something you could do at the municipal level or did

    3 that decision have to be taken at a higher level?

    4 A. The decision really depended on different

    5 things. Actually, there were two kinds of Territorial

    6 Defence units; one were the municipal units which could

    7 be called up at the request of the executive council of

    8 the municipality after mobilisation.

    9 Q. And the work that -- that mobilisation, could

    10 that be directed to military matters, or could it only

    11 be directed to civil defence matters?

    12 A. Both.

    13 Q. And when it came to mobilisation of the

    14 Territorial Defence at the municipal level, was the

    15 executive of the municipality authorised to direct war

    16 operations? In other words, could it tell the

    17 Territorial Defence where it should fight and where it

    18 shouldn't, and so forth?

    19 A. Well, let me say that the executive branch,

    20 after the Serbs withdrew from government, was no longer

    21 the executive council that it was before that. And the

    22 executive council did not have that kind of authority

    23 any longer, because it didn't really exist. Only the

    24 name remained, executive council, but the rest didn't

    25 really function any longer.

  42. 1 Q. Yes, I'm going to move into that area of what

    2 happened after the breakup of the federation, but I

    3 just wanted to concentrate on the pre-breakup period,

    4 if I could, for the moment. Because you've been kind

    5 enough to bring the laws forward and I understand that

    6 you are familiar with them.

    7 Now, when it comes to the JNA, I take it you,

    8 this is again pre-1990, the executive committee of the

    9 municipality didn't have the authority to direct the

    10 JNA in its operations; did it?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Although, the JNA could come to the municipal

    13 authorities and seek assistance, or probably demand

    14 assistance, this is pre-1990, should that situation

    15 arise.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Now, both the Territorial Defence and the

    18 JNA, prior to 1990, was a multi-ethnic, both were

    19 multi-ethnic organisations, weren't they?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And indeed, they would deliberate, there was

    22 a deliberate policy of ensuring that there was a

    23 relatively even balance of ethnic groups in both those

    24 organisations, the Territorial Defence and the JNA?

    25 A. This was taken into account, but whether this

  43. 1 kind of balance was ensured; in the Territorial Defence

    2 unit, yes, but not in the JNA, I think.

    3 Q. And I think history has shown in the JNA it

    4 was perhaps even abused, the principle, that is.

    5 Now, when Bosnia-Herzegovina became an

    6 independent country, all of this changed; didn't it?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. The highest level of the defence was in

    9 Sarajevo, because that was the republican headquarters,

    10 or the centre of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    11 A. It was the Ministry of Defence of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    13 Q. That's right. And indeed, the JNA shifted

    14 its allegiance to the Republic of Serbia.

    15 A. The JNA came to Bosnia-Herzegovina, too, so I

    16 think that they really focused on Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    17 Q. The point I'm making, I'm talking about after

    18 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the JNA in

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina was at that stage a foreign force in

    20 a sense, because it was a military force that had

    21 aligned itself to the Republic of Serbia; that's true,

    22 isn't it?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And so then, the defence of the Republic of

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina was then left largely to the

  44. 1 remnants of the Territorial Defence?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And indeed, whatever JNA facilities came

    4 available to the Territorial Defence?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Perhaps you might explain, then.

    7 A. Well, I can explain the situation with a

    8 large military warehouse where Territorial Defence

    9 weapons were stored for the territory of some ten

    10 municipalities. It was in Sljmena near Travnik. And

    11 this warehouse was taken over by force, but the army

    12 had mined certain facilities, certain storage houses.

    13 So, these warehouses and military facilities

    14 were not in all cases made available to the Territorial

    15 Defence. Things were done by force, too.

    16 Q. Yes, you're quite right and I should have

    17 been more cautious with my generalisation. Certainly

    18 there was a number of instances where the JNA itself

    19 took over resources of the Territorial Defence, and I

    20 wasn't disputing that. I was talking more about

    21 facilities such as the Kaonik facility, it was a former

    22 JNA unit.

    23 A. Yes, it was taken over by the JNA.

    24 Q. But we don't need to dwell on that. I'm just

    25 trying to see if you can assist me with the general

  45. 1 background.

    2 Now, apart from the Territorial Defence units

    3 which were organised during the course of 1992, from

    4 Sarajevo; that's true, isn't it?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Well, you tell us what the position is,

    7 then.

    8 A. The units of the Territorial Defence were

    9 organised on the basis of this law that I spoke of, and

    10 they were organised in that particular way. And later

    11 on there were no new ways of organising it. It was as

    12 they were when they were multi-ethnic.

    13 The units of the Territorial Defence were, I

    14 mean later, in the Territorial Defence units, I mean,

    15 they were only formally called TO, Territorial Defence,

    16 but these were really units of the Muslim Bosniaks.

    17 So, it was not really in line with the regulations

    18 originally envisaged.

    19 Q. They couldn't be in line with the regulations

    20 originally envisaged, could they, because the whole top

    21 of the legislative structure had been removed: Namely,

    22 the Socialist Federal Republic no longer existed;

    23 that's true, isn't it?

    24 A. It's true.

    25 Q. But what remained was the level at the

  46. 1 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; that continued, didn't

    2 it?

    3 A. Well, it didn't exactly continue to function.

    4 It was supposed to continue functioning, but because of

    5 the actual state of affairs that prevailed in

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, it could not function. I mean,

    7 they couldn't operate as Territorial Defence units.

    8 Q. I'm not asking you to tell me about the

    9 practical circumstances as such, I'm talking about the

    10 legislative structure. We can come back to that.

    11 It's true Sarajevo was under siege and

    12 communications with municipalities was complicated; but

    13 would you agree there was still a government in

    14 Sarajevo and it was still purported, whether or not it

    15 was accepted, it was still purported to be the

    16 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's true, isn't

    17 it?

    18 A. Well, yes, but the regulations remained the

    19 same. No new regulations were passed by that

    20 government.

    21 Q. No. And indeed, the regulations which you

    22 relied on at the municipal level were the same

    23 regulations that applied prior to the breakup of the

    24 Socialist Republic, which is consistent with what

    25 applied in Sarajevo at the republic level. You agree

  47. 1 with that?

    2 A. Yes, yes.

    3 Q. So, when you said earlier in your evidence

    4 that your reporting responsibilities as such from the

    5 municipal level went from the municipality up to the

    6 regional or military district level, which was

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina; that in effect didn't change,

    8 surely.

    9 A. I mean, this military district no longer

    10 existed, now there was a Ministry of Defence.

    11 Q. And the Ministry of Defence was in Sarajevo.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And so, you would have had to report to the

    14 Ministry of Defence in Sarajevo.

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Did you report to the Ministry of Defence in

    17 Sarajevo during the course of 1993?

    18 A. Yes, I did. And a few times I met with the

    19 Minister of Defence.

    20 Q. And what was the purposes of your meeting

    21 with the Minister of Defence in Sarajevo, or wherever

    22 you met him?

    23 A. Before 1992, before the attack on Sarajevo, I

    24 met him then. And the point was to see what we were

    25 supposed to do under such circumstances, when certain

  48. 1 units were turning against the people, and those were

    2 the units for which we supplied conscripts.

    3 Q. I'm sorry, I think you misheard my question.

    4 I asked you during the course of 1993 did you report to

    5 the Minister of Defence or the Ministry of Defence in

    6 Sarajevo?

    7 A. I couldn't, because there was no

    8 communication. The communication was cut off before

    9 that, as early as 1992.

    10 Q. And that is also because the military forces

    11 that were operational in the area of the municipality

    12 for which you were responsible was the HVO.

    13 A. At the beginning I was responsible for all

    14 the military forces and the territory of the

    15 municipality until February or March, 1992. And later

    16 on, later on Muslims, Bosniaks who were in the

    17 secretariat, they would mobilise people for their units

    18 and we Croats would mobilise people for Croatian units.

    19 Q. Yes, and in particular that was the position

    20 in 1993 when the HVO was in conflict with the army of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    22 A. At that time all links in terms of joint

    23 efforts were cut.

    24 Q. Now, the law that applied to, at a municipal

    25 level and at a republican level continued on; did it

  49. 1 not, in 1993? I'm talking about these laws that you've

    2 been referring to, the old laws of the SFRY.

    3 A. They were taken over. They did not remain in

    4 the same form. The organs of the Republic of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina took over these regulations as the

    6 organs of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna took

    7 over these same regulations.

    8 In fact, we worked according to the same

    9 regulations, but we got them from different

    10 authorities.

    11 Q. Well, they were taken over by, at least at

    12 the level of the republic, they were taken over by the

    13 government or by the government of the Republic of

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina from the old SFRY?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Where in the law of the Socialist Federal

    17 Republic or at the level of the Republic of

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina is there a provision which deals

    19 with the HVO?

    20 A. In these regulations there is not a single

    21 provision regulating the work of the HVO. This is in

    22 the regulations of the Croat community of Herceg-Bosna

    23 at that time. But the regulations are the same.

    24 Q. How do you say that the regulations that

    25 relate to the recruiting of civilians could be applied

  50. 1 by the HVO when there was no link between that -- and

    2 I'm talking about no legislative link -- between that

    3 and the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993?

    4 A. The continuity of the Republic of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina was severed at that point, and we

    6 Croats that lived in that area through the institution

    7 of Herceg-Bosna, we ensured our existence within the

    8 boundaries of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in order to

    9 facilitate communication, in order to facilitate

    10 supplies, but not for Croats only.

    11 Q. So, within that territorial area of

    12 Herceg-Bosna, you declared yourself independent,

    13 whether it be directly or by implication, from the

    14 central government of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo?

    15 A. Well, I worked in the municipality, I did not

    16 proclaim myself independent of anyone.

    17 Q. You may have done, but you say that the laws

    18 were applied by the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna

    19 in relation to that territory as something separate and

    20 distinct from the laws that were applied by the

    21 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sarajevo; isn't

    22 that true?

    23 A. I did not say that the regulations were

    24 different, I said they were the same; but the preamble,

    25 the organ who handed it down to us was different.

  51. 1 Q. But you're not able to show us or point to

    2 anything which permitted, as a matter of law, for the

    3 HVO to operate as an independent military unit on this

    4 territory; are you?

    5 A. I have the decree on the armed forces of the

    6 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, on the basis of

    7 which we functioned.

    8 Q. Of course. And no doubt the Croatian

    9 community of Herceg-Bosna passed many laws during this

    10 period, and I'm not quarrelling with that.

    11 What I'm asking you, though, is to point to

    12 the law that permits that community to enact its own

    13 laws and to adopt regulations such as these.

    14 A. I haven't got that.

    15 Q. And that's because there is no law; is there?

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Sorry for interrupting.

    17 Mr. Mikulicic.

    18 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, I should just

    19 like to draw your attention to one point and to make an

    20 objection to the Prosecution. During the witness's

    21 statement, the witness did not use any legal acts which

    22 were brought in by the Croatian community of

    23 Herceg-Bosna. What he used was the legal act which was

    24 applied for the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    25 according to the principle of taking it over from

  52. 1 federal regulations, the former federal regulations.

    2 As opposed to this, my learned colleague the Prosecutor

    3 implied that he referred to acts which were enacted

    4 within the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna. That

    5 was not the case, and I should like to make an

    6 objection in that sense for the Prosecution's method of

    7 examination.

    8 And I should also like to make an objection

    9 in view of the fact that my learned colleague, with his

    10 questions, out stepped the boundaries of the questions

    11 asked by the defence. My colleague, the Prosecutor is

    12 asking the witness things about political

    13 organisational structures, which we did not bring up in

    14 the examination-in-chief.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, firstly, there

    16 seems to be this myth that cross-examination is limited

    17 only to what is raised in evidence-in-chief and I think

    18 we have canvassed this on numerous occasions before.

    19 In no jurisdiction where cross-examination is a feature

    20 of the adversarial trial process am I aware of any

    21 situation where cross-examination is limited only to

    22 matters raised in-chief. Cross-examination is

    23 regulated by whether it is relevant or not, or

    24 harassing, or other rules; but never have I known it to

    25 be limited to simply matters raised in-chief.

  53. 1 Secondly, dealing with the other issue, it's

    2 a little bit disingenuous for the Defence to call a

    3 witness before the Chamber who purports to lay before

    4 you the foundation upon which they say they and others

    5 acted in this particular region during 1993, and say

    6 this is the legal foundation of it then to object when

    7 I seek to explore the foundation of this law.

    8 It's all very well to pull a law out of the

    9 air and say it was relied on, and it's another matter,

    10 indeed, to say this is the legislative foundation of

    11 that law on which we relied. And it's the legislative

    12 foundation which I'm seeking to explore. Because, Your

    13 Honours, if we can be pointed to know legitimate

    14 legislative foundation, then it doesn't matter what the

    15 law is, it has no application.

    16 And I presume what is sought to be done at

    17 the end of the day is to be said, well, all these

    18 people did engage in trench digging but it was done in

    19 accordance with the law; so therefore, there is nothing

    20 wrong because people were taken out in accordance with

    21 the law.

    22 If that's what is sought to be achieved, and

    23 I assume that's what Mr. Mikulicic is seeking to do,

    24 then it's entirely appropriate for me to say, what is

    25 this law, and what is its foundation.

  54. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I have discussed the matter

    2 with my colleagues and the Trial Chamber thinks that

    3 the Defence has called this witness in order for the

    4 witness to explain to the Trial Chamber the legal

    5 foundations of the laws governing the units of civilian

    6 work. At least that's how we have understood the

    7 calling by the Defence of this witness.

    8 But we also think that the goal of the

    9 Defence is to give to the Trial Chamber a certain

    10 number of informations relating to the political

    11 military problems, the problems arising from the

    12 arrival of refugees in the region, the problems of

    13 detention of certain civilians by the Croats, all this,

    14 of course, within the framework of the territory of the

    15 Lasva Valley.

    16 This is what interests us directly, as this

    17 is what is directly linked to the charges brought

    18 against Mr. Aleksovski. We are interested about what

    19 happened in Kaonik and in the Lasva Valley area.

    20 We always have to keep this in mind, we want

    21 some general information on the general background

    22 prevailing at the time, and I think Mr. Neimann is

    23 quite right, it is always useful to repeat time and

    24 again that what has happened in the Lasva Valley are

    25 the very heart of the case against Mr. Aleksovski.

  55. 1 Yet, we cannot limit ourselves exclusively to

    2 the Kaonik camp. We have to try to understand the

    3 general background of this case. Therefore, the Trial

    4 Chamber, taking all this into account, decides that

    5 Mr. Neimann is entitled to put any questions he wishes

    6 to the witness, and the witness will just answer these

    7 questions if he is able to give an answer to these

    8 questions.

    9 This is our decision, and, Mr. Neimann, you

    10 are invited to proceed.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours, please.

    12 Q. So, Mr. Rajic, my question was that there was

    13 no foundation law which permitted the adoption of these

    14 old laws by the Croatian community of Herzeg-Bosna?

    15 That was my question. That's correct, isn't it?

    16 A. You said that that is your opinion. I simply

    17 can't recall everything. A lot of time has gone by.

    18 But, I think that we did have regulations according to

    19 which we functioned in the municipalities and which

    20 were legal, so to speak, lawful.

    21 Q. I don't want to dwell on this topic, Mr.

    22 Rajic, for much longer. I merely wanted to ask you, if

    23 you could, to point to any such law, but I understand

    24 entirely. It's been some time now if you're unable to

    25 do that. If you're unable to do that, please just say

  56. 1 so.

    2 A. I have a regulation here with me. This is a

    3 regulation relating to the armed forces of Croatian

    4 community of Herzeg-Bosna adopted on the 3rd of July,

    5 1992.

    6 Q. And that was adopted by the Croatian

    7 community of Herzeg-Bosna?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. But just to complete this point, you can't

    10 point to a law of either the federal former socialist

    11 federal Republic of Yugoslavia or a law of the Republic

    12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which would permit the Croatian

    13 community of Herzeg-Bosna to adopt or apply these

    14 laws? And that's my point.

    15 A. Well, I can't show you that now, no.

    16 Q. Now, I want to move on, if I may, to these

    17 local work units that were established. Can you tell

    18 us where they were operational, geographically?

    19 A. Well, they were operational in every

    20 municipality.

    21 Q. And were they operational in the Municipality

    22 of Busovaca?

    23 A. They should have been, yes.

    24 Q. Did you have any connection with supplying

    25 civilian work units to the Busovaca area or

  57. 1 municipality?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. Well, who is responsible for that?

    4 A. I don't understand your question.

    5 Q. I'm sorry. I should have told you and I'm

    6 sorry I didn't. I am talking about 1993 in that period

    7 of time. I have moved forward to 1993. I am asking

    8 you, during the first half of 1993, were you in any way

    9 involved, yourself, personally, in relation to the

    10 supply of civilian work units to the Municipality of

    11 Busovaca?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Well can you tell me who was?

    14 A. The commander of the department for the

    15 defence of Busovaca.

    16 Q. And did you have any connection whatsoever

    17 with the department of the defence of Busovaca?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. What was your connection to the department of

    20 defence of Busovaca?

    21 A. Well, quite simply, with the head we would

    22 exchange experiences with the head of the department of

    23 how, in the best possible way, we could work under the

    24 given circumstances which were very difficult indeed.

    25 Q. And were you in a position of authority or

  58. 1 superior to the head of the department of defence of

    2 Busovaca?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. So you couldn't give any orders or directions

    5 in relation to what happened in that municipality?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Were you limited only to the Municipality of

    8 Travnik?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. So all of the evidence that you've given here

    11 today relates merely -- well, won't say merely, I

    12 withdraw that. Relates entirely to the Municipality of

    13 Travnik and no other municipality?

    14 A. As far as the functioning and collecting the

    15 units of the work duties, this refers to all the

    16 municipalities. Because that was the method of work in

    17 all the municipalities.

    18 Q. Well, who was responsible overall for the

    19 function and collecting of the units for work duties?

    20 Was that you?

    21 A. Among others, I was one of them, but there

    22 were the commanders of the units if a situation

    23 required this.

    24 Q. And the commanders of the units would be

    25 commanders of the HVO units?

  59. 1 A. Members of the HVO, the commanders of the

    2 HVO, if it was their members. If it was the HV, then

    3 it would be those commanders.

    4 Q. And isn't it true that you were responsible

    5 for the HVO units? And I say that, perhaps I should

    6 clarify that for you. Responsible for the HVO units in

    7 supplying, ultimately, the civilian work facility?

    8 A. I am not sure I understood your question.

    9 Q. It wasn't very clear and I agree with that.

    10 A. In what sense am I responsible?

    11 Q. Let me break up the question a bit for you.

    12 I am not asking you about what happened right down the

    13 command level. I accept what you say, that from time

    14 to time commanders could recruit civilians to carry

    15 out -- will carry out work duties for them. I accept

    16 that as part of the chain of command they could do

    17 that. But you're in a position, were you not, above

    18 the level of the commanders and you had a direct

    19 involvement with the civilian work duties that were

    20 carried out, didn't you?

    21 A. You said above the commanders. I don't know

    22 what you're referring to. If you're referring to the

    23 units of the HVO, I was not above them. I was just a

    24 service for them.

    25 Q. Well, tell us then, perhaps you might help

  60. 1 us. Tell us what you were in service for then? What

    2 were the parameters of your responsibility and duties

    3 in relation to HVO units, particularly in the Busovaca

    4 area, that were operational in the Busovaca area in

    5 1993?

    6 A. In the area of Busovaca, I had no

    7 competencies. But, as the head of the department for

    8 defence, I had to ensure enough food. If there was not

    9 enough food from the regular reserves, then we had to

    10 take some food from people who had surpluses. And in

    11 order to ensure food for the units. If we had to find

    12 a vehicle of some kind for certain duties, work duties,

    13 then that too would be the role and function of the

    14 defence department in wartime.

    15 Q. And did that include the Busovaca area? Did

    16 it include Busovaca as well as other areas? That's the

    17 point I am trying to make.

    18 A. Yes, but there was somebody else, another

    19 head of department was responsible there, not me.

    20 Q. Thank you. So whenever you -- I just needed

    21 to clarify that, because I must admit, I was confused

    22 and thought that you had a responsibility for Busovaca

    23 as well.

    24 Well, can you tell us then how many work

    25 units were operational, for example, in your area,

  61. 1 seeing we have to rely on your evidence as a

    2 comparative basis only. When I am talking about work

    3 units, I am talking about civilian work units.

    4 A. There were four work units and they had about

    5 150 members. 150 men in the work units for the area in

    6 which I was in command.

    7 Q. And, once again, that was the Travnik area?

    8 A. Yes, but only for the Croats. Because, as I

    9 say, the Muslim Bosniaks had their own units and their

    10 own duties.

    11 Q. And all of those four units of 150 people

    12 were located in the Municipality of Travnik?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And were you responsible for conscripting

    15 people to these work units? Was that a duty that you

    16 had personally?

    17 A. It wasn't my personal duty, I had other

    18 responsibilities.

    19 Q. Was it a responsibility that had come under

    20 your general authority? You may have had some other

    21 person physically do it for you, but did it come under

    22 your general authority?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Who was your equivalent in the Municipality

    25 of Busovaca?

  62. 1 A. The commander was Gavro Maric at the time.

    2 The head was Gavro Maric.

    3 Q. Are you saying Busovaca didn't have a

    4 Ministry of Defence as such in its municipality?

    5 A. No, it did have, it did have.

    6 Q. Well, who was that?

    7 A. I just said, Gavro Maric.

    8 Q. I thought you said he was the commander. The

    9 commander and the secretary of defence.

    10 A. Yes, one is a civilian, the second is a

    11 soldier, it was the head.

    12 Q. When you wish to deploy, if I may call it

    13 that, civilian work units at a particular location, who

    14 is responsible for giving the order to that in normal

    15 circumstances, where, say if those circumstances where

    16 a commander had to act in an emergency. That was just

    17 normal circumstances, who is responsible for saying

    18 this particular work unit will work here?

    19 A. It was the military, competent military

    20 organ.

    21 Q. Well, what reference was there then to you as

    22 secretary of defence in the municipality when it came

    23 to deploying these civilian work units?

    24 A. We had to inform those individuals to inform

    25 as many -- to see how many people we needed and to

  63. 1 ensure the necessary material needs if that was

    2 required for us. For example, if we're dealing with

    3 shovels and picks and axes and so on. Under normal

    4 conditions, of course.

    5 Q. And where was the equipment ordinarily

    6 obtained from? Where did you obtain the equipment for

    7 these civilian units?

    8 A. Well, there were warehouses of the civil

    9 defence units. And like the warehouses of the

    10 Territorial Defence, they were emptied. But also we

    11 could tell the recruits, the conscripted people, to

    12 take with them the tools that were needed.

    13 Q. And, presumably, if you told them to do that,

    14 they would be taking them from their own houses and

    15 things, it would be their own personal equipment?

    16 A. Yes, yes, from their own homes, yes.

    17 Q. How are the civilian defence -- or, sorry,

    18 the civilian work units organised? Is there a

    19 commander or somebody in charge?

    20 A. In Travnik there was some 30 odd people and

    21 he was called the commander of the work unit or work

    22 platoon. But he was just an individual responsible.

    23 That is to say, he knew where his people were at any

    24 given moment and he was there to see that these people

    25 were equipped with what they needed.

  64. 1 But there were also cases where if the

    2 situation called for this in emergency situations and a

    3 line had been broken and had the be seen to, the

    4 military police would go out and bring in the civilians

    5 that it came across first and then they would escort

    6 these civilians to the work post and back once they had

    7 seen to a given situation and put it right.

    8 Q. And when they did that, did the military

    9 police deal directly with a commander of the civilian

    10 work units or did they just go up and gather people up

    11 off the street?

    12 A. If -- very often the military police did not

    13 know who the commander of a certain work unit was. So

    14 then they did this themselves, they would collect the

    15 people, the civilians themselves.

    16 Q. So when they -- I'm sorry. You were saying

    17 something? I thought I cut you off, sorry. So when

    18 the military police randomly selected persons off the

    19 street, not knowing who the commander of the regular

    20 civilian work units were, then they would presumably be

    21 acting according to some different law to the ones that

    22 you've shown us today in the course of your evidence?

    23 A. There were no other laws.

    24 Q. So there is no legal foundation then for

    25 military police to gather up people and take them to

  65. 1 the front and have them perform work duties there?

    2 A. I did not say that.

    3 Q. Well perhaps you might assist us with what

    4 the position is as you understood it?

    5 A. I did not say that there was no legal

    6 foundation for the actions of the military police.

    7 Q. No, I said that. And I thought you'd

    8 disagreed with it, and, if you have, please tell us

    9 what the legal foundation was.

    10 A. I don't know how the military police acted.

    11 The military police acted on the basis of the

    12 regulations taken over from the former Yugoslavia.

    13 Q. But not in accordance with these regulations

    14 that you've taken us through, there are some other

    15 regulations, are there?

    16 A. No, those regulations were taken over. And

    17 it was done on the basis of those regulations.

    18 Q. Can you assist us by perhaps referring to the

    19 particular regulation that the military police relied

    20 on to randomly collect people off the street and take

    21 them to the front. Can you help us by telling us what

    22 regulation it? And you might read it out for us

    23 because we don't have a translation.

    24 A. When I quoted those regulations, I mentioned

    25 in Article 6 what these provisions were and on what

  66. 1 basis the military police could collect people to carry

    2 out such work duty. Because these regulations were

    3 taken over by the authorities of Herzeg-Bosna too,

    4 fully at that. I don't know in which official gazette

    5 it was published and when. I cannot remember that

    6 accurately.

    7 Q. Yes. Unfortunately, we're all working under

    8 somewhat of a disadvantage here because we have the

    9 article in Article 6. But unfortunately it's not

    10 translated, so we can't readily see the exact part that

    11 you're referring to. I am wondering if you'd be so

    12 kind just to help us, just to read out that particular

    13 part that you say that the military police relied on.

    14 Would you be so kind to do that for us?

    15 A. The part that related to the military police

    16 was not regulated by these particular regulations, not

    17 even in the former Yugoslavia. No specific mention is

    18 made of the military police here. This is in lower

    19 bylaws, that is where it was regulated. I don't know

    20 exactly how the military police operates. And I don't

    21 know the regulations on the basis of which they

    22 operated because I never encountered this in my

    23 career.

    24 Q. That's fine, thank you. I just wanted to

    25 clarify that, if I could. Now, tell me, when it comes

  67. 1 to the civilian work units that were properly

    2 constituted under these laws, and I am not talking

    3 about -- I am not talking about police units, I am

    4 talking about the ones you've spoken of, the four in

    5 Travnik that have a commander and so forth. Did the

    6 commander have the authority to direct the works that

    7 were required to be done?

    8 A. It depends. On some occasions he could, they

    9 would obey him and on other occasions they wouldn't.

    10 It depended on the situation, really, that prevailed at

    11 that particular point in time. I don't know. Well, he

    12 was superior to them and he was a liaison between these

    13 people with whom he worked and also the military

    14 commander in charge. He was not the military commander

    15 himself, I mean not in a military sense.

    16 Q. But presumably, if it was decided that

    17 certain fortifications had to be done at a particular

    18 location after discussion with the military commander,

    19 the commander of the civilian work unit would then go

    20 off to this place and carry out whatever had to be

    21 done, that's how it would work, wouldn't it?

    22 A. It functioned that way too, but not only in

    23 that way.

    24 Q. Okay. Well, I might get you to tell us about

    25 the exceptions, but we'll just concentrate on this for

  68. 1 a moment.

    2 A. Well, it wasn't really exceptions. That's

    3 the way it functioned more or less. But then the

    4 military police itself, I mean, you know, whether they

    5 brought people in on their own, I mean, to carry out

    6 certain duties, that's what I am referring to.

    7 Q. I don't want to address the issue of the

    8 military police. I am talking about the work units

    9 that were established under these laws that you've

    10 shown us. I am only concentrating on them. Can you

    11 tell me the chain of command, if it were, from the

    12 civilian work unit commander, who did he report to?

    13 Who was his immediate superior?

    14 A. His immediate superior was the commander of

    15 the unit to which that work unit was attached to. And

    16 that could have been at any level, at the level of any

    17 unit, all the way up to a brigade.

    18 Q. I see. So when a work unit was deployed with

    19 a military unit, an HVO unit, then how it functioned on

    20 the ground was that the commander of the work unit was

    21 answerable to the military commander; is that correct?

    22 A. Answerable? Well, in a way, yes, he was

    23 answerable to him because he was subordinated to him

    24 because he was attached to his unit.

    25 Q. So, at that level, at least, you had a coming

  69. 1 together of both the civilian and the military

    2 facilities, so you had with the military unit being

    3 superior?

    4 A. Well, you see, the work platoon was supposed

    5 to help the military unit to which it was attached, so

    6 it was only natural that they would be in charge.

    7 Q. And the people that were recruited to the

    8 civilian work units, and I am talking about the ones

    9 under the regulations, were from the same ethnic

    10 background, I take it, as people recruited to the HVO

    11 itself? In other words, they were Croats in 1993?

    12 A. They were not from that ethnic group. The

    13 majority were Croats, but they were not the same

    14 because I already said that the members of another

    15 ethnic group, who did not wish to fight other members

    16 of their same ethnic group, it wasn't moral for them to

    17 be forced through work to do that. So they were,

    18 therefore, in the work units.

    19 Q. So what you're saying is that you couldn't

    20 morally force Muslims to fight for the HVO, but you had

    21 no compunction in compelling Muslims to dig trenches

    22 for the HVO, is that the effect of what your evidence

    23 is?

    24 A. That was the obligation of all and that is

    25 the way everybody operated. That is the way it was all

  70. 1 over.

    2 Q. But the Croatian community of Herzeg-Bosna

    3 was separate and distinct from the government in

    4 Sarajevo, wasn't it, which you say represented the

    5 Bosniaks?

    6 A. There was no difference. One worked for the

    7 members of their people and others worked for the

    8 members of their people. They did not differ in their

    9 mode of operation.

    10 Q. No, they may have done the same thing, but

    11 they were separate, weren't they? They had separated

    12 in 1993, there is no secret about that, surely?

    13 They're at war.

    14 You spoke in your evidence about the

    15 increasing tensions in late 1992 and 1993. It's the

    16 position, isn't it, that, at that stage, the Croatian

    17 community of Herzeg-Bosna was -- it had as one of its

    18 policies, a plan to have an area separately governed

    19 for the Croatian community itself as opposed to other

    20 communities such as Muslims or Serbs? That's true,

    21 isn't it?

    22 A. That is not true.

    23 Q. Well, you tell us what is true then in terms

    24 of the policies of the Croatian community of

    25 Herzeg-Bosna.

  71. 1 A. As regards to the policies of the Croat

    2 community of Herzeg-Bosna, at that time, that was the

    3 only possible way of organising the Croat people on the

    4 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and providing for their

    5 survival.

    6 Q. And when the Muslim refugees started to

    7 arrive in the Lasva Valley in large numbers, that

    8 presented an immediate threat, did it not, to the aims

    9 of the Croatian community of Herzeg-Bosna?

















  72. 1 A. No, it did not constitute a threat to the

    2 aims of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, they

    3 were not a threat generally speaking. It became a

    4 threat when foreign people came with foreign

    5 ideologies, from foreign countries, and also with a lot

    6 of publishing activity.

    7 I think that the consequences, the effects of

    8 this can be seen today. That is, a number of people

    9 who espoused a certain ideology which was alien to that

    10 area before, and that was the source of tensions.

    11 Q. Surely you would have been aware of Roman

    12 Catholic charitable organisations, humanitarian

    13 organisations operating in both the Republic of Croatia

    14 and in the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna during

    15 this period. You would have been aware of that;

    16 wouldn't you?

    17 A. I know about the activities of several

    18 Catholic organisations, charitable organisations, but I

    19 did not see a single official of any one of these

    20 organisations distributing humanitarian aid with a

    21 Kalasnikov in his hand, which was not the case with

    22 others. And we all saw that and felt it, regrettably.

    23 Q. But presumably if one was to be subjective

    24 and you would agree with me that someone of the Muslim

    25 religion may feel equally intimidated by organisations

  73. 1 with Roman Catholic background operating in this

    2 particular region.

    3 A. There were no crusaders, that I can say with

    4 full responsibility. The only activity that was

    5 present there was humanitarian aid. And it is

    6 precisely in this area, in the Lasva Valley that a

    7 considerable number of people arrived who were not

    8 well-intentioned. They pretended to be humanitarians,

    9 but later on it became obvious they were the Mujahedin

    10 who were there until the present day, and unfortunately

    11 they managed to recruit quite a few young people,

    12 Bosniaks.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Neimann, I believe it

    14 is now time to make a break. I guess everybody is a

    15 little tired, including the witness. We will take a

    16 20-minute break.

    17 --- Recess taken at 11.50









  74. 1 --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Please proceed,

    3 Mr. Neimann.

    4 MR. NIEMANN:

    5 Q. Mr. Rajic, the people that you spoke of are

    6 the influx of refugees, numbering 120.000, where had

    7 they come from, mostly, those people?

    8 A. Mostly from the Bosanska-Krajina region.

    9 Q. And these people were Muslims, were they?

    10 A. Not only Muslims; but far the greater

    11 majority were Muslims.

    12 Q. And if they weren't only Muslims, what other

    13 ethnic groups were represented in these refugees?

    14 A. There was some Croats, as well. But they

    15 continued further on towards Croatia.

    16 Q. And I take it that the appearance of the

    17 Croats was not a matter that concerned you or caused

    18 any increase in tension, it was only the appearance of

    19 the Muslim refugees.

    20 A. Well, not tension, but there was a negligible

    21 number of Croats for them to have any greater effect on

    22 the demographic ratio.

    23 Q. The demographic ratio in your municipality is

    24 a matter of some concern to you; isn't it?

    25 A. Yes.

  75. 1 Q. In fact, you take the view that the

    2 maintenance of a majority of Croatian people in your

    3 municipality is the only way and the best way to

    4 maintain a peaceful and harmonious community?

    5 A. No, Travnik was never a majority Croatian

    6 area.

    7 Q. Okay. Well, maintaining at least a sizeable

    8 representation of Croatians is a matter that is of

    9 interest to you in the Travnik municipality.

    10 A. The problem isn't in the people who came here

    11 who were poor refugees, because that initial period I

    12 was at the head of the command for the taking in of

    13 refugees, while we worked in the same organs or

    14 institutions together with the Croats and Bosniaks

    15 together.

    16 But as I said a moment ago, with the

    17 activities of people coming from outside, from other

    18 countries, and I have in mind here the Arab and Islamic

    19 countries; and through their activities, that was when

    20 we Croats felt threatened, jeopardised.

    21 Until that time, the people did not represent

    22 a danger, because we were there to fight a common

    23 enemy. But, with the coming of these people from

    24 outside with other ideas, people who had not come to

    25 defend Bosnia-Herzegovina, but to expand other ideas,

  76. 1 that is when we felt this numeric superiority and this

    2 demographic disbalance have an adverse effect.

    3 Q. But the people from places other than

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, such as the Arab and Islamic

    5 people, there weren't 120.000 in number; were they?

    6 A. No, not them, but a number, a portion of

    7 those people came in and started disseminating their

    8 ideas.

    9 Q. And because of that, you decided, then, that

    10 the whole of the Muslim people in the area became a

    11 threat?

    12 A. No, that was not what we decided. It was a

    13 fact in its own right, it was no decision on our part.

    14 Q. I believe in 1997, I know we're moving on,

    15 but it's on the same topic, there was an exodus of

    16 Croats from the Travnik municipality; wasn't there? A

    17 large number of Croatian people left that area?

    18 A. '97, you said? I don't know about that

    19 particular fact.

    20 Q. It's just that I have a summary of media and

    21 it's reported that you said that the exodus of Croats

    22 from Travnik harbringings (sic) the end of the Croat

    23 existence, not only the Lasva Valley but throughout the

    24 central Bosnian Canton. You said that, did you?

    25 A. I never made a statement of that kind.

  77. 1 Q. You're speaking of the Lasva Valley and its

    2 importance in terms of its communication lines. The

    3 town of Busovaca itself, though, is not on that

    4 communication line; is it?

    5 A. Yes, it is along that communication line

    6 towards Sarajevo and Zenica.

    7 Q. Well, it's slightly off it, isn't it?

    8 Doesn't the communication line run along the Lasva

    9 Valley itself, between Sarajevo and Travnik?

    10 A. Yes, but the Kaonik camp is 100 metres from

    11 that main communication line where the town of Busovaca

    12 is just one kilometre away.

    13 Q. In addition to your duties and

    14 responsibilities of calling up people for civilian

    15 work, did you ever have any responsibility for calling

    16 up people for mobilising people for the purposes of the

    17 army itself. Was that ever a duty that you had?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And when, what was it that brought about you

    20 issuing such a call up? How would it happen? Who

    21 decided that more troops were required that would cause

    22 to you instigate this action?

    23 A. Well, first of all, general mobilisation was

    24 claimed for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on the basis of

    25 that call, according to the order we had, the

  78. 1 department for defence, each individual knew his

    2 position and role and unit or military defence unit or

    3 civilian defence unit, every individual knew his place.

    4 And so, in addition to this public call up,

    5 there were also individual written call ups,

    6 invitations, which were taken by courier to the

    7 conscripts.

    8 But as I say, this was under the conditions

    9 when the situation allowed us to function in that way;

    10 whereas, if the units had been left without enough men,

    11 for example, we would have recruits on our list, but

    12 they were perhaps sent to Croatia and was doing work

    13 there and we couldn't reach him, for example, and we

    14 had to fill his place with somebody else. Then we

    15 would send somebody else instead of him to fill that

    16 place, and he was sent there.

    17 Q. Now, the people that you called up,

    18 particularly in 1993, were issued new call up notices

    19 in 1993, they were on behalf of the Croatian community

    20 of Herceg-Bosna; weren't they?

    21 A. Well, there was no need for any new call up

    22 notices, then, because up to that time all the people

    23 were engaged in some locality or other.

    24 Q. Are you saying there was no call ups in --

    25 I've got a document here 28th of May, 1993, there were

  79. 1 no call ups around about that time?

    2 A. Well, just to fill in the gaps of the people

    3 who were absent. But most people had already taken up

    4 their positions by that time.

    5 Q. I see, you're saying it's not a general

    6 mobilisation but you did mobilise on a small-scale?

    7 A. Yes, individual call ups.

    8 Q. And the point is those individual call ups

    9 were on behalf of the Croatian community of

    10 Herceg-Bosna?

    11 A. For the region which was under my control,

    12 yes.

    13 Q. And was there any particular law that you

    14 relied on to call up people to join the forces of the

    15 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, commonly known as

    16 the HVO?

    17 A. We used the regulations taken over from the

    18 SFRY and the social list Republic of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    20 Q. And I think when you were speaking of --

    21 excuse me -- when you were giving your evidence

    22 in-chief, I think you spoke of those particular laws,

    23 these, and you refer in particular to these regulations

    24 which you relied on, as being laws that had been

    25 originally passed with the intention, or what they

  80. 1 envisaged was being applied against a foreign enemy or

    2 a foreign enemy was in mind.

    3 Do you remember saying that?

    4 A. Yes, I do.

    5 Q. And I think you would agree with me that

    6 certainly these laws would never have been passed with

    7 the intention that they would be applied to citizens of

    8 Bosnia-Herzegovina against the army of

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    10 A. I do have anything to think about there. It

    11 was a regulation that we all applied in

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, regardless of what side. We all

    13 took over that regulation.

    14 Q. But can you agree with me that when the laws

    15 originally were passed in 1980's, it never would have

    16 been envisaged that they would have been applied to

    17 citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina against the army of

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    19 A. I'm not quite clear as to the question.

    20 Q. Well, I don't know whether I can make it any

    21 clearer for you. I'm talking about when the laws were

    22 originally passed, you said in your evidence that they

    23 were envisioned to be applied against a foreign enemy.

    24 Well, the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    25 could hardly be said to be a foreign enemy; surely.

  81. 1 A. No, no, they weren't.

    2 Q. And in a similar vein, it could never have

    3 been envisaged when these laws were passed in the

    4 1980s, that they would be applied by the community such

    5 as the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna to be

    6 deployed, for people to be deployed against the army of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    8 A. Well, this was probably not provided for, but

    9 I don't know why you set aside the army of

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We are all citizens of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and just as the Muslim Bosniaks had

    12 their military units, we had our own units, too.

    13 Q. Now, when you had meetings of the

    14 municipality meetings in Travnik, minutes were taken of

    15 those meetings; weren't they?

    16 A. Yes, as a rule meetings are taken, minutes

    17 are taken at meetings.

    18 Q. And those minutes would provide for a

    19 particular date and time, they would set out the date

    20 and time of the meeting?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. They would also set out the number of the

    23 meeting?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And in 1993 they are referred to as meetings

  82. 1 of the HVO municipality of Travnik, were they?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And the minutes would set out the members who

    4 participated in the meeting?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. The agenda?

    7 A. That's right.

    8 Q. And any conclusions that would have been

    9 reached.

    10 A. Yes, that's right.

    11 Q. And in addition to that, the minutes would

    12 then be signed by the president?

    13 A. The president, or if he is not there, the

    14 chairman of the meeting.

    15 Q. I see. I have here a document, if you would

    16 look at it for me, please.

    17 MR. NEIMANN: There is copies for Your

    18 Honours and a copy for the Defence.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: 136 and 136 A for the English

    20 version.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: I've given a copy to the

    22 Defence, I think.

    23 Q. Mr. Rajic, would you look through that

    24 document, the photocopy, the one in the Croatian

    25 language, it's not a very good document in terms of its

  83. 1 copy, but would you just have a little look through it

    2 for me, please? Just a quick glance, I don't expect

    3 you to read every part of it.

    4 Does that document look familiar to you as a

    5 copy of the minutes of the Croatian community of

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the municipality of Travnik in

    7 April of 1993?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And I think you will see there under

    10 conclusions of the minutes of the 10th of April, 1993,

    11 a particular reference in paragraph 1. You see

    12 conclusions in paragraph 1, and it makes a reference to

    13 the burning of the Croatian flag which is something you

    14 discussed in your evidence-in-chief. Do you remember

    15 saying that in-chief, when you gave your evidence,

    16 answers to Mr. Mikulicic? You referred to that

    17 incident?

    18 A. Yes, I did, but not one flag was burned, but

    19 all the flags were burned which were hung out in

    20 Travnik for Easter on that day.

    21 Q. Fair enough.

    22 A. There were about ten of them.

    23 Q. Fair enough. And I take it that the

    24 reference here to the burning of the flag is the same

    25 incident that you referred to when you gave your

  84. 1 evidence-in-chief?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. I just wanted to ask you some questions about

    4 this document, if I may. Do you see where it refers on

    5 the first page to the agenda, and it speaks of the

    6 conclusions of 55. Do you see that on the first page,

    7 conclusions of 55? I take it that's conclusions of the

    8 previous meeting; is that what that means?

    9 A. Probably, yes.

    10 Q. And that is meetings of the HVO?

    11 A. Yes, the municipal HVO of Travnik.

    12 Q. Now, just going over to the conclusions,

    13 which I referred you to a moment ago, do you see in

    14 paragraph 2, there, a reference to Dr. Tudjman? Do you

    15 see that paragraph?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And I think the effect of that paragraph is

    18 that they ought to be informed of the events that

    19 occurred, and I assume that's the burning of the flags.

    20 Is that what that means?

    21 A. Up until then there were other incidents in

    22 which the victims were Croats, and the burning of the

    23 flags was just one of the reasons for holding this

    24 meeting. There were other reasons why the meeting was

    25 held. Of course there were other incidents as well, I

  85. 1 mentioned some of them.

    2 Q. And the reason why you would report this to

    3 Dr. Tudjman was because he was directly interested in

    4 events that were happening in the area under the

    5 community of Herceg-Bosna at that time?

    6 A. They were not only events in the Croatian

    7 Republic of Herceg-Bosna, the whole of

    8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, what was left, which the Serbian

    9 forces had not taken over, were directed towards,

    10 exclusively towards Croatia.

    11 And it was our aim to find, to try and find

    12 ways and means of preventing a conflict from breaking

    13 out, along with the assistance of Mr. Tudjman, because

    14 we all were supplied with both food supplies and energy

    15 supplies and weapons and all communications went via

    16 Croatia. Both for the Croats and for the Muslim

    17 Bosniaks.

    18 Q. And in fact, the Republic of Croatia had by

    19 the 9th of April, 1993, had their own troops there as

    20 well, didn't they, HV troops?

    21 A. No, you said that. I never said that. Nor

    22 were there any Croatian, units of the Croatian army in

    23 Central Bosnia.

    24 Q. They say in the next paragraph, paragraph 3,

    25 it speaks of emphasis on coordination of the

  86. 1 municipalities of Mostar, Novi Travnik, Busovaca and

    2 Vitez. Do you see that paragraph?

    3 A. I do.

    4 Q. And it says that relations with all the

    5 representatives of the Muslim nation are to be frozen,

    6 especially in those areas. Do you see that?

    7 A. Well, you see, those who were present at the

    8 meeting, I mean these people could not pass a decision

    9 on freezing relations in Travnik, Mostar, Novi Travnik,

    10 Vitez. We simply had to consult, to coordinate our

    11 efforts to see what was to be done in view of the

    12 situation. I wish to note that the incident with the

    13 flags was only a manifestation which had much deeper

    14 causes in terms of everything that was happening in

    15 Travnik and in order to reach this kind of conclusion.

    16 And I know quite a lot about that.

    17 Q. And why were the municipalities of Mostar and

    18 Novi Travnik, Busovaca and Vitez, especially singled

    19 out as opposed to other municipalities?

    20 A. Well, because Vitez, Busovaca, Novi Travnik

    21 and Travnik are one entity. And, they simply cannot

    22 operate without one another. Not a single one of these

    23 municipalities can simply divorce itself from the

    24 others. And Muslim Bosniaks also worked there in that

    25 an area because that is what the situation was like

  87. 1 then.

    2 Q. Okay. Now, moving on, if I may, over to the

    3 next document, which appears on the last page, I

    4 believe, of the Croatian version. Just take your time

    5 to read it.

    6 A. I have read it.

    7 Q. Yes, that makes reference then to a meeting

    8 by people such as the commander of operative zone,

    9 Central Bosnia, Tihomir Blaskic, and others who are to

    10 meet with the minister of defence of the Republic of

    11 Croatia.

    12 A. Yes, that's what it says in the conclusions.

    13 Q. And it says regarding support, what sort of

    14 support was envisaged by that?

    15 A. As far as NTS is concerned, it is primarily

    16 armaments and military equipment that are in question

    17 and the rest, military uniforms, fuel, and things like

    18 that, but it is not a secret. That is Bosnia and

    19 Herzegovina, Bosnia-Herzegovina was both HVO and

    20 BH-Army. And in terms of logistics, we relied on

    21 Croatia.

    22 Q. Now it makes reference there to the operative

    23 zone, Central Bosnia. What's that? What's the

    24 operative zone, Central Bosnia? What does that mean?

    25 A. Operative zone is an area of responsibility

  88. 1 of a command on that area, on that territory, perhaps

    2 that's the way I can put it.

    3 Q. Is that a military zone?

    4 A. Operative zone is a military zone.

    5 Q. And, presumably, that had its own

    6 organisational structure, did it?

    7 A. I think it did.

    8 Q. And according to these minutes here, Blaskic

    9 was the commander of that zone?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And, presumably, when the commander of the

    12 zone or other persons in that zone wish to issue orders

    13 or give directions, they would sign themselves as being

    14 in a particular part or at a particular rank in the

    15 Central Bosnia operative zone under Mr. Blaskic?

    16 A. It is that way.

    17 Q. So, if you were to see, for example, a stamp

    18 that was stamped the Central Bosnia Operative Zone,

    19 Travnik defence department, then whoever affixed that

    20 stamp would be part of that structure and

    21 organisation?

    22 A. I am not aware of such a stamp where it says

    23 operative zone and the defence department of Travnik.

    24 There was no such stamp.

    25 Q. Okay. Well, let me help you with that then.

  89. 1 Would you look at Exhibit D 21 B. Might the witness be

    2 shown Exhibit D 21 B. Now I would just like you to

    3 concentrate on the stamp itself. And if you want to

    4 have a closer look at it, please don't hesitate to pick

    5 up the document and look at it and put it back on the

    6 machine. But I would like you to look at the document

    7 closely for me, if you would. And especially the

    8 stamp, the stamp.

    9 A. Yes, I saw it.

    10 Q. Have you ever seen that stamp before?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. You were in the Travnik defence department,

    13 weren't you, that was your department?

    14 A. Yes, but this is an office not a department.

    15 There is a difference between the office and the

    16 department.

    17 Q. Fair enough. But my point is that the people

    18 authorised to affix this particular seal would be part

    19 of the organisation of the Central Bosnia operative

    20 zone?

    21 A. This is a military prison and it is quite

    22 logical that it should be part of it.

    23 Q. Just excuse me for a moment, I need to read

    24 something. Now, when giving your evidence earlier in

    25 answer to one of my questions, and I will read out the

  90. 1 question from the transcript so you can refresh your

    2 memory from it. And I was talking about the functions

    3 of the civilian work units at the time. And I asked

    4 you this question. I said, "Well, who was responsible

    5 overall for the function and collecting of units for

    6 work duties?" And I said, "Was that you?" And you

    7 said, "Among others, I was one of them, but there were

    8 commanders of the units if a situation required this."

    9 And then I asked you the question:

    10 "Q: And the commanders of the units would be

    11 commanders of the HVO units?"

    12 And your answer was this:

    13 "A: Members of the HVO, the commanders of the

    14 HVO, if it was their members, if it was the HV, then it

    15 would be those commanders."

    16 What did you mean by that?

    17 A. Not at a single point in time did I say that

    18 it was the Croat army. There was no Croat army there.

    19 And they could not be in a position at all to issue

    20 call ups to these people who had duty assignments. I

    21 mean physically they were not there. If we, the Croats

    22 in Bosnia and Herzegovina are the people in question,

    23 that it is a different matter.

    24 Q. Now, finally, the regulations that you drew

    25 our attention to and showed us do not in anywhere

  91. 1 relate to prisoners of war or persons being detained

    2 under the Geneva Conventions do they?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. And you would agree with me, I think, that

    5 persons being detained as prisoners of war, or as

    6 civilians under the Geneva Conventions, that that law

    7 in Yugoslavia, and in everywhere else on earth, the

    8 Geneva Conventions would prevail over these

    9 regulations?

    10 A. I think they do prevail. I don't see what

    11 else I can answer.

    12 Q. So in no sense of the word are you suggesting

    13 that these regulations would apply to persons who were

    14 afforded the protection of the Geneva Conventions?

    15 A. I think they do not relate to that.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have

    18 any further questions you would wish to put to the

    19 witness?

    20 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour, just

    21 a few questions in order to clarify certain parts of

    22 the statement made by this witness.

    23 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

    24 Q. Mr. Rajic, when you explained to us and

    25 quoted the text of those decrees which regulate work

  92. 1 duty, you said then that these decrees were actually

    2 issued during the former Yugoslavia; is that true?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What happened when the Republic of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina became independent in terms of the

    6 regulations of the former Yugoslavia?

    7 A. Most regulations of the former Yugoslavia

    8 were taken over because there wasn't time or was there

    9 the possibility to pass so many laws and other legal

    10 enactments during such a short period of time.

    11 Q. I understand that. So, Mr. Rajic, does that

    12 mean that the decrees you spoke of became regulations

    13 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as they were

    14 taken over?

    15 A. Precisely.

    16 Q. Is it accurate to say that these regulations

    17 that you invoked and which were taken over, thus

    18 becoming regulations of the Republic of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, were not therefore passed by the

    20 Croatian community of Herzeg-Bosna?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Rajic, that these

    23 regulations concerning work duty were applied also by

    24 institutions which prevailed under the rule of the

    25 majority Muslim population, concretely, were they

  93. 1 applied by the BH-Army?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. So is it true to say that the BH-Army applied

    4 the same regulations that we were speaking of today?

    5 A. That is absolutely correct.

    6 Q. How can you know that?

    7 A. I knew that new regulations were not passed

    8 because at the beginning of June I was in Travnik when

    9 we Croats were expelled from Travnik. And the

    10 conflict, the conflict went on for eight months after

    11 that until the Washington accords were signed. And

    12 there were cases that a Croat would be captured on the

    13 frontline who was fortifying the frontline on the other

    14 side, who was involved in work duty there.

    15 So, after the Washington accords were signed,

    16 and that was in early spring of 1994, I personally

    17 encountered quite a few Croats who remained in Travnik,

    18 for instance, and who said where, in which area, they

    19 fortified certain parts of the frontline, where they

    20 dug tunnels, et cetera. So this is what I came to know

    21 through personal contacts with people who were on the

    22 territory controlled by the BH-Army. And they were on

    23 the work units on that side.

    24 Q. So these same regulations were applied?

    25 A. Yes, these same regulations were applied. I

  94. 1 was also in touch with people who worked in the

    2 department of defence. I was their boss before the war

    3 and we maintained this human relationship, so when I

    4 talked to these people, I know that -- I realised that

    5 no changes were made. And that the regulations of the

    6 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were taken

    7 over by Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    8 Q. Thank you. Tell us, Mr. Rajic, although you

    9 are not involved in such work today, do you know

    10 whether, since then, since the hostilities stopped in

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and since the Washington accords

    12 were signed, were new regulations passed which would

    13 regulate in a different way work duty?

    14 A. I am not familiar with that, but I don't see

    15 how it could be regulated in a different way, but I am

    16 not involved in these matters any more.

    17 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, no further

    18 questions from the Defence, Your Honour.

    19 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Do you have the Exhibit

    20 136 there?

    21 A. I do not see this number. I just see that I

    22 have a paper here, but I don't know what number it is.

    23 136 it says here.

    24 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: There are some names

    25 there. Mr. Pervan, the president; Mr. Krizanac, deputy

  95. 1 president. Were those people civilian or soldiers?

    2 A. These members of the government were all

    3 civilians.

    4 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: The HVO municipality

    5 Travnik was a military or a civilian office?

    6 A. The HVO of the Municipality of Travnik was a

    7 civilian organisation; whereas the municipal staff of

    8 the HVO of Travnik was a military organisation and

    9 later on it turned into the brigade of Travnik.

    10 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Thank you, no more

    11 questions.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Rajic, there a few

    13 questions I would like to put to you. Earlier you said

    14 that if an individual refused to accomplish his or her

    15 work duty, he could be condemned to a number of

    16 sanctions. He could, among other things, be

    17 imprisoned. Have I understood you rightly?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: An as far as the setting up

    20 of these work units are concerned, did you also use

    21 prisoners to accomplish certain tasks?

    22 A. No, because in this area where I was, there

    23 wasn't an organised prison or any detention centre.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But according to the laws

    25 governing this issue, the people responsible for the

  96. 1 organisation of work units could use prisoners who had

    2 been sentenced to a jail sentence for having disobeyed

    3 the ordering them to integrate these work units; isn't

    4 that right?

    5 A. I don't know about that. I mean, I didn't

    6 understand your question very well either.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I'll try again. The people

    8 responsible for the organisation of these civilian work

    9 units could use the prisoners who had been sentenced to

    10 a jail sentence for having disobeyed certain orders,

    11 couldn't they?

    12 A. I don't know that prisoners were used for

    13 such purposes.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But you said that in your

    15 area of responsibility, there were no prisons and that,

    16 therefore, you did not know if prisoners could be used

    17 within those work units. But I am speaking from a

    18 legal point of view, was this possible?

    19 A. Well, I think that prisoners were not used

    20 for such work. I mean convicted prisoners.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: That's your personal

    22 opinion, isn't it? Or, are you giving us an opinion as

    23 a legal expert, as a person who can interpret the law?

    24 A. I am interpreting the law, rather.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much. There

  97. 1 is another question I would like to ask. I think that

    2 earlier on you established a parallel between the

    3 military command structure, which could be found on the

    4 frontlines and the persons responsible for these work

    5 units, the people who were heading these work units and

    6 who were placed under the orders of these military

    7 commanders. I think you mentioned something like that

    8 earlier on; am I right?

    9 So if a commander who was on the frontline

    10 asked you to send him a number of workers, you or the

    11 police would manage to gather these people and their

    12 boss in a way and this work unit was placed under the

    13 orders of the military commander on the frontline; am I

    14 right? Very well then. So this is the general

    15 background.

    16 And my question is the following: What was

    17 the role of a prison commander or of a prison warden as

    18 far as this whole organisation of work duty is

    19 concerned?

    20 A. I don't know what the role of a prison warden

    21 is. I did not encounter that in my work.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But I think that from a

    23 historical or factual point of view, there were prison

    24 wardens, there were prison commanders, wasn't there?

    25 A. Yes.

  98. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And this commander, or this

    2 warden, could have civilian commanders or military

    3 commanders, couldn't he? Have you understood my

    4 question? Is there a problem with the interpretation?

    5 Am I unclear in some way?

    6 A. I understood your question, but there was a

    7 brief interruption, I didn't hear your question in its

    8 entirety.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I shall repeat it then.

    10 From a historical point of view, from a factual point

    11 of view, we know that there have been civilian prison

    12 warden, civilian wardens, isn't that a fact?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: According to the law, so

    15 from a legal point of view, what was the function of a

    16 civilian warden of a prison within this general

    17 organisation of civilian work duty?

    18 A. I am not aware of this in detail. I did not

    19 have an opportunity to acquaint myself with the

    20 regulations concerning military prisons. But, since

    21 you're putting this question to me, I think that a

    22 civilian person can also command a prison, but only by

    23 way of work duty because that is one of the

    24 institutions which can have people who are on work duty

    25 working in it.

  99. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Maybe I am not clear

    2 enough. I am not asking you what the duties of a

    3 prison warden were. My question is the following:

    4 Within this framework of civilian work duty, and I

    5 think you're well informed about this because you have

    6 worked in this particular framework, you, yourself,

    7 have organised civilian work units, so within this

    8 general framework of organisation of civilian work

    9 duty, what could be the duties of a civilian prison

    10 warden? That is my question.

    11 A. I don't know. I don't know whether such a

    12 thing was ever envisioned.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, then, thank you

    14 very much. The Trial Chamber has no further questions

    15 to put to you. Your testimony before this

    16 international Tribunal is over.

    17 Mr. Neimann, would you like to add

    18 something?

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Before the witness is

    20 discharged, I think I should tender Exhibit 136 that he

    21 referred to in the course of his evidence. Sorry to

    22 interrupt, Your Honour.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No problem, Mr. Neimann.

    24 Mr. Mikulicic, any objection?

    25 MR. MIKULICIC: The Defence has no

  100. 1 objections, Your Honour.

    2 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, the two

    3 previous documents that were shown to the witness by

    4 the Defence bear the numbers D28 and D28a, and the

    5 registry will ensure that a translation of these is

    6 made.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much,

    8 Mr. Registrar.

    9 Mr. Rajic, thank you again for coming before

    10 this international tribunal. I wish you a safe journey

    11 back.

    12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    13 ( The witness leaves).

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We will all meet again

    15 tomorrow morning. Thank you very much.

    16 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 1.15

    17 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

    18 the 26th day of August, 1998 at 9.00

    19 a.m.