1 Tuesday, 25th August 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 9:05 a.m.
3 (In open session).
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and
5 gentlemen. Good morning to the technicians. Good
6 morning to the interpreters. We shall now resume our
8 Mr. Dubuisson, please, can you please call
9 the case.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-14/1-T, the
11 Prosecutor versus Zlatko Aleksovski.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much. Could
13 we have the appearances please, Mr. Niemann.
14 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours, please, my
15 name is Mr. Niemann and I appear with my colleagues Mr.
16 Meddegoda and Ms. Sutherland.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic for the
19 MR. MIKULICIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
20 My name is Mr. Goran Mikulicic and I appear for the
21 Defence together with my colleague Mr. Joka.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic.
23 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. The
24 Defence calls witness Tomislav Rajic to the stand.
25 (The witness entered court)
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I hear you.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (No translation).
3 THE WITNESS: I am afraid I can't hear
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Mr. Rajic,
6 can you hear me now? Thank you very much for coming
7 and I do apologise for their technical problems. They
8 often come up. You have to understand that there are
9 some interpreters here, but we don't share the same
10 language. You will now read out the solemn declaration
11 that the usher is holding out for you.
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Please sit down.
16 THE WITNESS: Tomislav Rajic.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: For the moment being, Mr.
18 Rajic, I will ask you to answer the questions put to
19 you by Mr. Mikulicic for the Defence. Mr. Mikulicic,
20 you have the floor.
21 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic:
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rajic. As Your Honours
24 have already told you, I am going to ask you several
25 questions as the Defence counsel and I would like to
1 ask you to answer them to the best of your ability.
2 Mr. Rajic, could you please tell us where and
3 when you were born?
4 A. I was born on the 25th of May, 1959 in Vucija
5 Gora of the Municipality of Travnik.
6 Q. What are you by nationality?
7 A. By nationality I am a Croat.
8 Q. Are you religious, Mr. Rajic?
9 A. Yes, I am, I am a believer.
10 Q. Which denomination?
11 A. The Roman Catholic.
12 Q. Could you tell us where you went to primary
13 school and what further education you had?
14 A. I went to primary school in Travnik, where I
15 also went to secondary school and I graduated from the
16 faculty of law in Sarajevo.
17 Q. Therefore, you graduated from the school of
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you do military service in the former
21 Yugoslav Peoples Army?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you recall when and where you did your
24 military service?
25 A. I did my military service in Bileca, in the
1 school for reserve officers from the 8th of August,
2 1984 to the 5th of July, 1985.
3 Q. When you left the school for reserve
4 officers, did you receive a rank?
5 A. Yes, I was a reserve lieutenant.
6 Q. Could you tell us where you went to work
7 after you graduated from the faculty of law?
8 A. Well, I waited for a job for one year and
9 then I, for one year, I worked in a firm dealing with
10 agriculture production and then I went to the army,
11 joined the army.
12 Q. So, after graduation, you worked as a legal
13 officer in a firm and then you did military service for
14 one year. When you returned from the army, where were
15 you employed?
16 A. I once again went back to the same firm where
17 I remained until the 4th of October, 1990, after which,
18 I went to the municipality and became an assistant to
19 the secretary for national defence of the municipal
20 secretariat for Travnik -- for the defence secretariat
21 in Travnik.
22 Q. I am going to ask you, Mr. Rajic, to speak a
23 little more slowly and make a break between the
24 sentences, so that our interpreters can follow you
25 better. Thank you.
1 So you told us that from 1990 you found
2 employment in the municipal structures and that you
3 were employed in duties in the secretariat for national
4 defence. Can you tell us, please, Mr. Rajic, what kind
5 of duties the secretariat for defence had? What was
6 its basic function?
7 A. Well, let me say at the outset that I came as
8 an assistant, but on the 22nd of February, 1991, that
9 is to say after the first elections, I was nominated
10 for secretary. That is the number one man of the
11 secretariat. The basic function of the municipal
12 secretariat for national defence was to make records of
13 all reservists and civil defence reservists, the duties
14 for the conscripts, material obligations and serving in
15 the centres of the OIO, which was, at the time
16 reconnaissance, the reconnaissance service and the
17 intelligence service. That means that these municipal
18 secretariats were, in fact, a service for the other
19 services and units of the Yugoslav Peoples Army, the
20 units of Territorial Defence, the units for civil
21 defence, which were general and specialised for the
22 conscripts because, according to the regulations at
23 that time, it was envisaged that certain services,
24 certain firms, should continue their work in case of
25 war and faced with the threat of war.
1 Q. Yes, I understand, thank you. So the basic
2 function, in fact, of the body in which you were
3 employed and whose chief you became was, in fact, to
4 perform certain duties which were prescribed by law.
5 By which law were these duties prescribed?
6 A. Well, there were several laws governing our
7 duties and responsibilities. The basic law, the basic
8 two laws, according to which all of us in the former
9 Yugoslavia was the law on all peoples defence and
10 social service protection. And the second law was
11 conscription, the law on conscription regarding
12 recruitment and record, the keeping of records on the
13 reserve formations. And let me also say that there was
14 some other regulations which were of lesser importance
15 than these two laws, which further regulated in greater
16 detail the various regions and areas to which these two
17 laws pertained.
18 Q. Yes, we'll say more about that later on, Mr.
19 Rajic, thank you. Would you now please tell us in
20 conformity with the law on conscripts, what was this
21 law and who were the conscripts? To whom did it
23 A. Well, it was not only the law governing
24 conscripts, there were five responsibilities: one was
25 the military responsibility, the professional
1 responsibility, the responsibility to serve in the
2 units of civil defence units or for materiel donations
3 and in the OIO services that I mentioned earlier on.
4 Q. Mr. Rajic, could you please repeat the second
5 duty, because I am not sure that it was introduced into
6 the text?
7 A. It was the working duties, the service
8 duties. And that is the first duty after the conscript
9 duty. And this service duty envisaged work in definite
10 companies, public organisations and institutions which
11 would come into function in case of war and when the
12 threat of war was imminent, but it was also a service
13 responsibility for the formation of certain platoons
14 and taking part in the assessing of the terrain and
15 fortifications for the terrain. In mopping up
16 operations and all for the armed forces at a given
18 Q. Later on we'll come back to that, Mr. Rajic,
19 and we'll speak about it in greater detail. I would
20 just like to present a general picture of the
22 So you said that you began performing these
23 functions in 1990 and are you still performing those
24 duties or do you have some other duties to perform
1 A. I worked until the 1st of January, 1994, as
2 the head of department for defence and at the present
3 point in time I am performing the duties of the
4 president of the municipal assembly in Travnik.
5 Q. In view of your formal training and
6 education, you have graduated from the faculty of law
7 and in view of your work experience, we can say that
8 you are well acquainted with the laws that we're
9 discussing and the regulations that we're discussing?
10 A. Yes, I did know the laws and regulations very
11 well, but let me say that more than four years have
12 elapsed since that time, so I am not well acquainted
13 with the details, but I do have a general overview of
14 the laws and regulations that exist.
15 Q. Yes, the Trial Chamber will hear that later
17 Mr. Rajic, let us now go back to the events
18 of the end of 1992 and the first half of 1993 in the
19 region. I have in mind the events, the relationship
20 between the Croatian and Muslim population in
21 particular. At that time, the war had already started
22 in Bosnia-Herzegovina. On the one hand we had the
23 attackers in the form of the Yugoslav Peoples Army and
24 the Serbian formations. On the other hand we had the
25 defence set up in which the citizens of the Croatian
1 and Muslim citizens took part. Can you give us briefly
2 an overview of the events at that particular time?
3 A. Well, the war in the region where I was
4 located began by a Serbian attack on Travnik. And
5 Travnik was the centre of the Lasva River Valley on the
6 19th of April, 1992, with an attack on a settlement,
8 With the beginning of the war in Slovenia and
9 later on in Croatia, it was quite evident because the
10 units of the JNA withdrew from those regions and they
11 came to the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to the
12 barracks that were in that region as they were in
13 Travnik, in Busovaca and the other barrack locations.
14 And we, the Croatian people, who were there in that
15 location, we knew and we felt that if the war was going
16 to be as it had been in Croatia and if the Serbs had
17 pretensions towards Croatia, then in no event would
18 they leave Bosnia-Herzegovina alone. And we,
19 therefore, tried to prepare ourselves. And the first
20 thing that we did was to erect the facilities for the
21 reserve police, the units for the reserve police.
22 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, Mr. Rajic.
23 You said that the Croatian people started to prepare
24 because they felt that there would be a conflict, which
25 in Croatia was already underway. Could you tell us
1 about the situation with the Muslim population? Did
2 they also undergo preparations? Did you have contacts
3 with the Muslim population?
4 A. The period I am talking about, I mean
5 preparations through joint institutions. That is to
6 say, there were members of the Muslim people as well
7 because they too felt that war was imminent and,
8 therefore, they tried to organise, we tried to organise
9 ourselves to meet that event.
10 And then, when the first attack took place on
11 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, this was sometime
12 in September 1991 and it was an attack on the village
13 of Ravno, the representatives, the leadership of the
14 Muslim people, who were in the peaks of power, said
15 that this was not their war. But with the beginning of
16 1992, in Travnik, and I say right up to 1992, we worked
17 together in one way or another. We had the same
18 organs, institutions, we tried to pool our efforts.
19 And if the secretary for national defence was a Croat,
20 for example, the commander of the Territorial Defence,
21 was a Muslim. So we tried to divide up the duties and
22 we were conditioned.
23 However, in the spring of 1992, when the
24 first, but fairly numerous people, groups, Muslims from
25 the Bosnian/Krajina area began to arrive, the refugees,
1 there was a sort of demographic unbalance, the
2 demographic balance was upset, which had existed until
3 that time. And the humanitarian assistance began to
4 arrive, individuals carrying humanitarian assistance.
5 But then we saw they were members of the Mujahedin, in
6 fact. And they brought with them some new ideas to the
7 region where these were not prevalent. And so this
8 upset our cooperation and it was severed later on.
9 Quite simply they felt that they could do without us.
10 And, as I say, this upset our cooperation and the
11 events that followed took place.
12 Q. Now we're talking about mid-1992, aren't we?
13 Do you recall, Mr. Rajic, whether at that particular
14 time, the ruling powers, the political powers of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina declared a state of war?
16 A. A state of war was proclaimed at the
17 beginning of March 1992.
18 Q. So, from March 1992 onwards?
19 A. No, at the beginning of April, 1992 with the
20 attack on Sarajevo.
21 Q. So we can say from April 1992 onwards, de
22 facto, on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina a state
23 of war was proclaimed; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You mentioned, Mr. Rajic, that a considerable
1 number of Muslims of the Muslim population came to the
2 area of the Lasva River Valley because it was compelled
3 to flee in the face of the Yugoslav Peoples Army and
4 the Serbian military units. They fled to the area,
5 could you tell us how many people?
6 A. Well, many people passed through Travnik.
7 Over 120.000 refugees and some of them, many of them
8 remained in Travnik.
9 Q. And so, in this region there was a disbalance
10 in the population ratio compared to the pre-war
11 situation; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, and this disbalance was drastic.
13 Q. Could you tell us, please, Mr. Rajic, were
14 the people who came to these areas where they never
15 lived before, where did they live? Where did they go
16 to? Where were they put up?
17 A. Well, in the first wave, they were sent to
18 collective centres. That is to say, schools,
19 kindergartens, two kindergartens in town, sports halls
20 and most of them, not many, but most of them were sent
21 to the different villages, surrounding villages, and
22 they stayed with the people of the area, the villages.
23 So that the number, the population doubled in the
24 villages around Travnik and Novi Travnik and in the
25 Lasva River Valley itself as a whole.
1 Q. Can you tell us, please, Mr. Rajic, according
2 to the best of your recollections, what the
3 relationship was between the Muslim and Croatian
4 population in the area before the war and what the
5 relationship was at the beginning of 1993?
6 A. Well, before the beginning of the war,
7 according to the 1991 Muslim census, there was a slight
8 advantage on the Muslim side. There were more Muslims
9 than Croats, but a very slight majority. Including the
10 Serbs, they just had a relative majority and it was 4
11 to 5 per cent more. According to the '91 population
13 However, with the arrival these refugees
14 and -- but as you know a population census is one
15 thing. The Croats from this area are well-known as
16 people who work in the countries of Western Europe. So
17 that if we look at the military capable populace in
18 certain municipalities, the ratio was 1 to 5 to the
19 advantage of the Muslims, Bosnia Muslims.
20 Q. Yes, I understand. You mentioned that at the
21 beginning on the side of the Muslim population, there
22 was the prevalent idea that the conflicts with the JNA
23 were not conflicts in which they ought to take part; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Well, yes, in the leadership that was
1 correct. However the people felt a little
2 differently. Very early on they began to organise
3 through the patriotic front which was set up, but
4 unfortunately, it was based on religion more. It took
5 a religious basis for its establishment and so very
6 early on, parallelly, while we worked in the joint
7 institutions, they had their patriotic front, which was
8 religiously based, formed for themselves and for their
9 purposes, and would form detachments later on which
10 would become military detachments.
11 Q. Does that mean that in that way they, in
12 fact, set up parallel organs of power and authority in
13 the military sense?
14 A. Yes, whether they were parallel organs of
15 authority, I don't know, but they were parallel,
16 military formations.
17 Q. Do you remember Mr. Rajic, when these
18 conflicts came out in the open between the Croats and
19 the Muslims in that area, when they obviously came to
21 A. Everyone who had any sense in his mind had to
22 fear an open conflict and war. There were certain
23 incidents, and most of us thought that it would end
24 with incidents, because that war, that conflict suited
25 the Croats and the Muslim Bosniaks least of all. And
1 this open conflict was proceeded by quite a few
2 incidents of this nature.
3 For example, in Travnik, in 1992, in October,
4 although we were in separate units, we went together to
5 help Jajce in Travnik, the commander of the municipal
6 staff of Travnik, Colonel Ivica Stojak was killed. And
7 then I think on the 17th of March, two members of the
8 HVO were killed, Ivo Juric and Dragan Dzandara, if I'm
9 not mistaken. And then in Travnik on the eve of
10 Easter, 8th or 9th of April 1993, all Croat flags were
11 burned, all of those that were flying on the occasion
12 of the holiday. And a woman was killed in her
13 apartment on that day, I think it was the 20th of
15 Q. So, there were quite a few incidents?
16 A. Yes, incidents. I'm talking about the ones
17 that I'm very familiar with. But there were quite a
18 few such incidents in these municipalities.
19 So, there was also a road of salvation, as we
20 called it, that went through the mountains; and before
21 the fighting, five Croats simply disappeared there.
22 They were killed.
23 Q. Tell me, Mr. Rajic, to the best of your
24 recollection, when did an all out attack by the Muslim
25 military forces occur in the Busovaca area against the
1 Croat units?
2 A. To the best of my recollection this was in
3 January 1993, around the 20th, perhaps a bit after the
4 20th. I don't know exactly, but I know it was January.
5 In Busovaca, even before that -- or rather in Travnik,
6 before that, in '92, there was a conflict, and later it
7 was in Busovaca that these hostilities broke out.
8 Q. Could you tell us, in your opinion, why did
9 the Muslim military forces attack the area of Busovaca?
10 A. It is hard to say why. Probably, so as to
11 capture this area. Simply to put under their control
12 everything that might hamper someone's intentions at a
13 later stage.
14 Q. Also there are some communication lines going
15 through that area of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 A. Yes, this is the most important communication
17 line going through this area, that is the communication
18 line Jajce-Travnik-Zenica, and it also goes towards
19 Sarajevo. And at any rate, from a military and
20 strategic point of view, this is an exceptionally
21 important area.
22 Q. Am I mistaken, Mr. Rajic, if I say that this
23 communication line actually links together the
24 territories that are predominantly populated with
1 A. Well, it does, yes. On the eastern side, so
2 to speak; Tusla, Kakanj, Zenica, that area. And this
3 is populated by a Muslim majority population, but this
4 communication line also proceeds towards Bugojno and
5 Vakuf where in Donje Vakuf, for example, the Muslims
6 were an absolute majority and in Bugojno they were a
7 relative majority.
8 At any rate, for Bosnia-Herzegovina this
9 communication line was crucial in terms of east-west
11 Q. I understand. So, at that time, during these
12 events, you said that you worked as the head of the
13 security for a national defence, and later it came to
14 be known as the Department of Defence.
15 What was your main function, your main task
16 as you held this job during the war? And may I remind
17 you that in April, 1992, a state of war was declared on
18 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 A. The main function of all secretariats or
20 departments of defence was to organise units, military
21 units, and people who were supposed to be involved in
22 work duty so that all of this could function, all
23 together. So, it was our job to seek military
24 conscripts and to give them their exact war
1 Q. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but as this
2 function was to be carried out, there were certain
3 lists, certain records that were kept for the
4 secretariats in the various municipalities; is that
6 A. That is true. All military abled men, those
7 who were capable of serving in the armed forces and
8 those who weren't, had their files with their basic
9 data, name, surname, date of birth, place of birth,
10 whether he was capable or incapable of military
11 service, their address, their current address, their
12 permanent address; so, at every point in time we had to
13 know where each and every man was at a given time,
15 But of course there were always some people
16 whose whereabouts were unfamiliar to us, but these
17 records were very important. You cannot claim that
18 they were one hundred per cent accurate, but at any
19 rate, they were very good.
20 Q. Tell me, Mr. Rajic, according to the law in
21 force at that time, during what period in one's life
22 would one have this kind of military duty?
23 A. At the age of 17 a man would be registered in
24 military records. When he would turn 18, then he would
25 undergo a thorough medical examination to see whether
1 he was capable of military service, and then he would
2 be assigned the service where he would serve, whether
3 it would be the navy or the army, et cetera.
4 Then they would be sent to do their military
5 service. And as a rule each and every one of these men
6 would be assigned to a reserve unit, either the
7 Territorial Defence or the JNA, it was all the same,
9 Q. I'm sorry, until what age did this military
10 service duty go?
11 A. Sixty, until the age of 60. When a man would
12 turn 60, then his files would be sent to archives. As
13 far as work duty is concerned, that would be assumed at
14 the age of 16. And men up to the age of 65 were --
15 they had to take work duty. And on for women this
16 obligation went up to the age of 55, but for men until
17 the age of 65.
18 Q. When you're speaking about work duty and
19 persons who were registered as people who had to carry
20 out work duty, this is part of one's military
21 obligations; isn't it?
22 A. It is part of the war assignments.
23 Q. Could you explain how this is part of war
25 A. All of this was aimed at the better
1 functioning of the military forces. So, this was
2 supposed to help the military units all together.
3 Q. Mr. Rajic, in your introduction you mentioned
4 to us that at that time, on the territory of Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina there were certain regulations that were in
6 force in this particular area.
7 Tell me, were these regulations in force
8 after the elections that were held and after the
9 independence of Bosnia was proclaimed?
10 Was this a new set of regulations, or was
11 this a set of regulations that was in force in the
12 former Yugoslavia and did the Republic of Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina simply take them over like other republics
15 A. These were regulations in force in the
16 territory of the entire former Yugoslavia, and after
17 that republican regulations were passed that regulated
18 this area, but perhaps in greater detail. And after
19 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was not only
20 these regulations, but all other regulations governing
21 other areas of life that were also taken over from the
22 former Yugoslavia, because the parliament did not
23 really have an opportunity to pass new laws. So all of
24 this was taken over.
25 Q. I understand. So, you said that the main
1 laws in this area was the law on total national defence
2 and social self protection and the law on conscription;
3 is that right?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. However, you also mentioned that on the basis
6 of these basic laws, the so-called bylaws were passed
7 regulating this particular area in greater detail; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Tell me, Mr. Rajic, I see that you have
11 brought with you some papers. So, we currently ask the
12 Court to allow the witness to use these papers during
13 his testimony so that it could be as accurate as
14 possible. Is that possible?
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Of course it is possible.
16 I think there is no objection from the Prosecution; is
17 there, Mr. Neimann?
18 MR. NIEMANN: I assume these are the papers
19 that Mr. Mikulicic has shown us before. If they are,
20 there is no problem. But if they are new papers, we
21 haven't seen them.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay. Mr. Mikulicic, can
23 you confirm that these documents are those that you
24 showed to the Prosecution before the hearing?
25 MR. MIKULICIC: Well, no, Your Honour. These
1 are not documents that the Defence wishes to tender as
2 evidence for this court. These are simply notes to
3 remind the witness of what he wishes to say during his
4 testimony. So, these are not documents that the
5 Defence wishes to tender as evidence. This is simply
6 to remind the witness of what he wishes to say.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Then I think you can use
8 them, Mr. Mikulicic. Please proceed.
9 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. So, Mr. Rajic, we were talking about some of
11 these bylaws that were passed on the basis of the laws
12 that were in force at that particular point in time and
13 that were taken over from the legislation of the former
14 Yugoslavia. Could you tell me what these documents
15 are, what these laws are, and what was regulated on the
16 basis of these regulations, and in what way?
17 A. The basic law in this area was the law on
18 total national defence, which was published in the
19 official Gazette of the FSRY. So this is a federal law
20 published in the official Gazette, number 21/82.
21 On the basis of that law, republican law was
22 passed, the law of the Socialist Republic of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina on total national defence, which was
24 published in the official Gazette, number 3/84.
25 Amendments to this republican law were
1 published in the official Gazette of Bosnia-Herzegovina
2 on number 17/87.
3 However, on the basis of this federal law a
4 decree was passed on organising work duty and
5 implementing it, related to tasks within the armed
6 forces of the SFRY.
7 Q. Could you please speak slower for the sake of
8 the interpreters?
9 A. So, this was published in the official
10 Gazette of the FSRY, number 35/83. And this decree
11 regulates in detail the question of work duty, what it
12 includes, et cetera.
13 Q. So, Mr. Rajic, if I have understood you
14 correctly, on the basis of these laws, a bylaw was also
15 passed which explains in detail how work duty is
16 carried out and what its purpose is.
17 Could you tell us why it was necessary at all
18 to establish units involving work duty?
19 A. Well, simply for the following reason: To
20 carry out those duties that soldiers with guns in their
21 hands cannot do. These are units that helped, I mean
22 people who had work duty helped these military units
23 with the aim of successfully organising defence or
24 attack, depending on what was in question at that
25 particular point in time.
1 Q. Thank you. So, these work duty units carried
2 out some kind of work, which is quite obvious. And
3 what does this bylaw say? What kind of work was to be
4 carried out by these units?
5 A. The best thing would be for me to quote this
6 particular text.
7 Q. Yes, but speak slowly for the sake of the
9 A. Article 6 of this federal decree says -- .
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Neimann.
11 MR. NIEMANN: It seems we have moved from
12 what I understood to be notes, which I didn't seek to
13 inspect at the time, into now referring to actual
14 text. And I think, Your Honours, I would like to at
15 least examine the documents that the witness is
16 referring to before he does that.
17 I assume they are in his own language, but I
18 would like to see them before he quotes from them,
19 unless Mr. Mikulicic seeks to lay the foundation of
20 it. It's a bit of a disadvantage here when the witness
21 is referring to material that is in front of him which
22 purports to be presumably some sort of a law and none
23 of us have access to that or know what its contents
25 So my objection is based on this ground:
1 Either Mr. Mikulicic lays a better foundation for the
2 reference to the material, or alternatively we're given
3 an opportunity to inspect it, Your Honours. That's my
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I think that maybe
6 Mr. Mikulicic could make a copy of some of these
7 documents and these could help you, Mr. Neimann, to
8 follow the sayings of the witness.
9 MR. NIEMANN: I would be grateful, Your
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, what do you
12 think of my proposal? Is it possible for you to make a
13 copy of the text that you are referring to so it will
14 help the Prosecution follow our work?
15 Actually maybe this would be a good time to
16 take a break. And maybe, Mr. Mikulicic, during this
17 break you could make a copy of these documents. The
18 registry will of course help you in every way. Maybe
19 this is the best way to proceed. We shall take a
20 20-minute break. Thank you very much.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.19 a.m.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, have you
24 managed to solve your problem?
25 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours. I am
1 very grateful for Your Honours assistance.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, you may now
4 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Before I continue my examination of the witness, let me
6 give a brief explanation regarding the documents. We
7 are discussing a document which the witness has brought
8 with him with the intention of recalling regulations
9 and norms from that time. I saw these documents
10 yesterday and so I did not have enough time to prepare
11 it and to comply with procedure, Court procedure.
12 However, if the Trial Chamber agrees and if
13 my learned colleague the Prosecutor agrees, the
14 document that we have before us I would tender as
15 evidence and I should like to ask the secretariat to
16 translate the document, if possible. I think that
17 would be the best way of having the document tendered
18 into evidence in view of the fact that we are
19 discussing it.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honours, we have no
21 difficulty with that. The only position I would ask
22 for is that it not be formerly tendered until we've
23 seen the translation of it. I don't expect there to be
24 any objection to it. I have had it explained to me
25 what it roughly is about. As a matter of formality, I
1 wouldn't be likely to be consenting to the tender of a
2 document I don't know the contents of. Subject to
3 that, I think the course proposed by Mr. Mikulicic is
4 very appropriate in the circumstances.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: The Trial Chamber agrees to
6 this proposal. Mr. Mikulicic, you may now proceed.
7 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Therefore, Mr. Rajic, having dealt with
9 formalities, we are discussing a decree on the
10 organisation and execution of work duties in connection
11 with the tasks and duties for the needs of the armed
12 forces of the Socialist Federal Republic of
13 Yugoslavia. You said that this decree was published in
14 the official gazette of Yugoslavia and that the number
15 was 35/83. And this you called the Federal Regulation
16 of the Former Yugoslavia.
17 Is it true, Mr. Rajic, that this former
18 federal regulation, with the independence of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was taken over as a republican
20 regulation, a republican decree?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you tell us, please, Mr. Rajic, you
23 mentioned Article 4 of the decree. Could you tell us
24 the purpose of the formation of units with work
1 A. I think that Articles 4, 6 and 7 speak of
2 these work duties. And so I should like to quote
3 Article 4, please.
4 "Units and their work duties for the needs
5 of the armed forces in war are organised in peace by a
6 decree of the competent municipal organ, issued on the
7 basis of a request by the competent military
8 territorial organ.
9 In wartime, if this is demanded by needs for
10 the combat activities and other requirements of the
11 armed forces and the competent municipal organ is not
12 able to issue orders in the sense of Point 1 of this
13 article, the units of the work duties are organised
14 according to an order of the chief of the competent
15 military territorial organ or by order of the military
16 commander holding the position of commander or of that
17 rank or of a higher rank. In the further text he is
18 referred to as commander."
19 And that is the end of the quotation of
20 Article 4.
21 Q. Mr. Rajic, could you explain to us as
22 somebody working with these kind of affairs and
23 somebody who applied this decree, what that means in
24 practical terms?
25 A. In practical terms it means something that I
1 have already said. And that is that in peacetime, the
2 municipal institutions for defence on the basis of a
3 request by the military organs fills up and calls up
4 for their purposes certain recruits when the need
5 arises. However, in wartime, when all these links have
6 been severed, these lines of communication have been
7 severed or interrupted, because this was envisaged for
8 a war with a foreign enemy, fighting a foreign enemy.
9 Where we severed all the polls that existed in a
10 municipality, then we were no longer able to act in
11 this particular manner as was regulated in Article 1 of
12 this decree, but we had to make shift and adjust
13 ourselves to the existing situation.
14 And, therefore, the commanders of the
15 military units who needed recruits for work duties,
16 specific work duties, they would seek ways and means of
17 coming by these recruits and the simplest way was to
18 use the military police, which would round up or
19 collect these people and bring them in for war duties.
20 Q. Yes, I understand. Mr. Rajic, what kind of
21 duties and tasks did the units of the work duty,
22 formations were they engaged in? What did these units
23 do and to what purpose?
24 A. Well, let me quote part of Article 6, that
25 will explain it best, perhaps. And that is that the
1 work units, in performing their tasks and duties for
2 the needs and purposes of the armed forces, can be
3 engaged in the execution of the following tasks:
4 "Number one, for performing work to
5 fortifications and dealing with roads, railway lines,
6 airports, other helodroms, ports, other ports,
7 harbours, hydrodroms and so on. To build objects for
8 war facilities for water and for water stations and
9 water works. To camouflage water facilities and water
10 supply systems. To camouflage facilities and ongoing
11 civil engineering work. And to supply points of
12 crossing waters and other waterways. To build up and
13 maintain secret storehouses, bases, dugouts, hospitals
14 and other sanitary first aid institution. And other
15 engineering work in the regions and zones of where the
16 combat activities exist in order to ensure the more
17 successful performance of the war work duties of the
18 armed forces."
19 And let me also quote Point 7 of the same
20 article. That is; "to execute other work duties for
21 the needs of armed forces." End of quotation.
22 Q. Therefore, in this article, taxitively (sic)
23 speaking, it enumerates all the tasks and duties which
24 the working duties imply?
25 A. Yes, but in Point 7, it is stated that if
1 other needs arise, depending on the commander of the
2 particular unit, the commander can use his men for some
3 other duties which have not been enumerated in that
4 particular article.
5 Q. Let us recall that we're talking about the
6 period when a state of war was proclaimed on the
7 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Article 6 states,
8 among others, that; "the work duty units performed
9 duties along the directions and in the regions of
10 combat activity, which ensure the successful execution
11 of the war tasks of the units of the armed forces."
12 Does this formulation allow for the possibility of the
13 work duty units being used for fortification work to
14 dig trenches, dugouts and so on?
15 A. Yes, this is what emanates from the
16 definition that you just gave us.
17 Q. Does it also follow from the text of the law,
18 the conclusion --
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (No translation).
20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, at this stage, I
21 am going to object to this witness being called upon to
22 give an interpretation of the law as such. What I will
23 not object to is him being asked questions of how this
24 law was interpreted at the particular time as a matter
25 of fact. So if the witness is asked whether this law
1 was interpreted to commit trench digging, for example,
2 at that particular point in time and place, I won't
3 object to that.
4 But if this witness is being called upon
5 generally to interpret the law and say as a matter of
6 law, it is to be interpreted this way, then I object to
7 that and I object to it on two grounds: One is that it
8 is a conclusion that may ultimately fall to Your
9 Honours to determine. And, secondly, I don't believe
10 this witness has been adequately qualified for that
11 purpose. That's my objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. Mikulicic, I fully accept
14 the attitude of my distinguished colleague, Mr.
15 Niemann. And it is not the defence's intention to ask
16 the witness to give a general explanation of a legal
17 matter. But it is our intention to ask the witness as
18 somebody who applied those regulations to see how these
19 were applied in practice. Because it was the witness
20 who by virtue of his professional function applied
21 those rules and regulations.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So I think we all agree
23 with what you've just said, Mr. Mikulicic, therefore,
24 you may proceed. There is no problem, I think.
25 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, I shall in
1 future try to avoid questions which would be an of a
2 generally formulated nature and I will pose them in
3 connection with the functions performed by the
4 witness. I think that will satisfy my learned
6 Q. So then, Mr. Rajic, let me ask you the
7 following question: Did you, in the war events of
8 1993, on the basis of this decree, which we have
9 quoted, did you call up recruits for their work
10 duties? That is to say, to use them for digging
11 trenches, dugouts and fortifications in the war zones
12 for the needs of the armed forces?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You told us, Mr. Rajic, that when
15 circumstances allowed, this invitation was done by
16 courier, by telephone or in some other way, you would
17 call up the recruits in that way?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If the war situation and circumstances did
20 not allow for this, then you sent military police to
21 collect these individuals; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Rajic, I should like to ask you to try to
24 tell me from your practice whether individual
25 commanders of parts of the battlefield, parts of the
1 line, frontline, did they also call up individuals for
2 digging trenches and fortification, did they also call
3 up these work duty recruits?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In which way? Do you know how they did
7 A. If we were dealing with -- for example,
8 defence was organised in our region according to
9 different sectors, so there was a certain area which
10 was covered by a commander for several units, the
11 commander of several units. And the commander would
12 have to, as a rule, go to the commander of the brigade
13 and he would ask for a certain number of individuals
14 that he needed to perform certain work duties. And
15 then, the commander of the brigade, via the military
16 police, would go out and get these conscripts.
17 Q. Mr. Rajic, from your experience, although the
18 term "work duty" implies the conclusion that it is not
19 a voluntary duty, voluntary work, was there prescribed
20 by law any sanctions for individuals who would not
21 comply with this invitation, with this request?
22 A. Yes, this was a violation of that duty.
23 Q. Refusal was a violation of the duty. Were
24 there any sanctions for that violation?
25 A. Well, in peacetime, this would be qualified
1 as a violation and there would be something, you would
2 have to pay a fine, they would have to pay a fine or go
3 to prison for a short time. But, in wartime, fines
4 were, of course, completely obliterated, and so, for
5 any violation of work duty regulations and requests, we
6 had other types of sanctions. First of all, we would
7 talk to the individual. We would explain to him that
8 that was his work duty. If he continued to refuse,
9 then he would be detained. And this was determined by
10 the various commanders in the units, the length of
11 detention and so on.
12 Q. Do you know how long this detention could
13 last for failure to comply with the work duties?
14 A. Depending on the rank of the commander,
15 commanders could issue penalties of 3 days' detention
16 period. That with was the lowest for company
17 commanders. And brigade commanders could issue 10 to
18 15 days' detention periods.
19 Q. I understand, Mr. Rajic. So you're talking
20 about the situation when a state of war was proclaimed,
21 right? Tell me, although you spoke of that during your
22 introductory remarks, but perhaps you could explain it
23 to us in greater detail now. According to what
24 criterion were certain people involved in the armed
25 forces serving with a rifle in their hand, to speak
1 figuratively, and according to which criterion did
2 other people who did not carry a rifle in their hand
3 have work duty?
4 A. In the war in our country, which is of a
5 special nature, I think, it was necessary to be fit
6 from the point of view from health to serve in the
7 armed forces with a rifle in the hand. So there were
8 some people who were not fit for full military duty,
9 but they were nevertheless involved. In the work duty
10 units, there were elderly people, primarily. Those who
11 were not fit for fighting.
12 However, in these units, in the work duty
13 units, there were people who belonged to different
14 ethnic groups and who happened to be in a certain
15 region and who did not wish to participate in armed
16 conflicts with the members of their own ethnic group.
17 And they certainly would not, therefore, be taken by
18 the commanders of military units into these units.
19 Because, in that case, there would be a possibility of
20 subversive activity within the unit itself.
21 Q. I understand. Mr. Rajic, tell us, when
22 certain work duty units were composed, did one take
23 into account the possible ethnic composition of such
25 A. I don't think that particular attention was
1 paid to ethnic composition of these units. People
2 simply had to look at what was available at that point
3 in time for such work duty.
4 Q. I understand. Are you familiar with the
5 Kaonik facility near Busovaca?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know what the purpose of this facility
8 was before the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke
10 A. Before it was a facility of the Yugoslav
11 Peoples Army.
12 Q. Do you know what happened after the JNA left
13 the area and left this particular facility? What
14 happened to the facility itself?
15 A. In it, the district prison was organised, I
16 believe. That is what it was called. It was really a
18 Q. Do you know, Mr. Rajic, that in that district
19 military prison, within this facility, in the first
20 half of 1993, Muslim civilians from the area of
21 Busovaca were interned, do you know anything about
23 A. I know it from hearsay, but I really don't
24 know for sure. I was in Travnik, after all. I heard
25 that Muslims were detained there too. But I know that
1 we would primarily take disciplinary action against
2 disobedient people of our own as I already told you.
3 Q. Did you ever come to visit this facility?
4 A. I came only in 1995.
5 Q. And then, I imagine that in 1993, you did not
6 have the opportunity of meeting the warden of this
7 facility or am I mistaken?
8 A. No, you're not, I didn't.
9 Q. Just tell us one more thing, Mr. Rajic, in
10 view of the nature of the office you held, I believe
11 that you were familiar with the armed units in that
12 area and that you had contact with them?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In these contacts, did you ever see some
15 soldiers who had insignia of the Croat army, HV?
16 A. No.
17 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Mr. Rajic, the
18 Defence has no further questions.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann. Do you wish
20 to put any questions to the witness?
21 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rajic. Mr. Rajic, I wanted
24 to see if you could assist me in clarifying the
25 structure of things in terms of the defence of the
1 former Yugoslavia that under the Socialist Federal
2 Republic of Yugoslavia first. You were asked some
3 questions about that by my colleague, Mr. Mikulicic.
4 Now, I take it, it is correct, is it not,
5 that there was the federal department of defence, if I
6 could call it that, which was the federal department in
7 the socialist federal republic; is that right?
8 And then there came down to be a component of
9 the defence department, which was in the individual
10 republics themselves, in this case, it was the Republic
11 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And then it descended right then down to a
14 municipal level and there was a component of defence in
15 the municipal level and that was the position that
16 you're in?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, what was the line, if any, of reporting
19 in this process? Did you report to the department of
20 defence in Sarajevo, being that of the Republic of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Or did you report directly to the
22 socialist federal republic in, presumably, located in
24 A. Reports were directly given to the military
25 district, as it was called then, in Sarajevo.
1 Q. I see. And the military district, that was a
2 federal district, was it?
3 A. It was at the level of the republic, but it
4 was a federal organ because it is the federal organs
5 that are concerned as far as the army is involved.
6 Q. Of course. And the army at that stage, now I
7 am talking, really, say up to 1990. The army at that
8 stage was the JNA?
9 And the Territorial Defence is something that
10 was much more local to yourself. Did you have any role
11 or connection on a municipal level to the Territorial
13 A. Yes, at that time I was secretary for
14 national defence, and my secretariat was supposed to
15 serve the Territorial Defence units as well as the JNA
16 units, the civilian defence units, all of it in keeping
17 with the military obligations I mentioned.
18 Q. Now, I take it that when it came to
19 mobilisation of the Territorial Defence, except in
20 areas where you were calling on them for assistance in
21 civil defence matters, that was not a matter that could
22 be decided at the municipal level; am I correct in
24 A. I didn't understand you.
25 Q. I'll repeat my question. When it came to the
1 mobilisation of the Territorial Defence, was that
2 something you could do at the municipal level or did
3 that decision have to be taken at a higher level?
4 A. The decision really depended on different
5 things. Actually, there were two kinds of Territorial
6 Defence units; one were the municipal units which could
7 be called up at the request of the executive council of
8 the municipality after mobilisation.
9 Q. And the work that -- that mobilisation, could
10 that be directed to military matters, or could it only
11 be directed to civil defence matters?
12 A. Both.
13 Q. And when it came to mobilisation of the
14 Territorial Defence at the municipal level, was the
15 executive of the municipality authorised to direct war
16 operations? In other words, could it tell the
17 Territorial Defence where it should fight and where it
18 shouldn't, and so forth?
19 A. Well, let me say that the executive branch,
20 after the Serbs withdrew from government, was no longer
21 the executive council that it was before that. And the
22 executive council did not have that kind of authority
23 any longer, because it didn't really exist. Only the
24 name remained, executive council, but the rest didn't
25 really function any longer.
1 Q. Yes, I'm going to move into that area of what
2 happened after the breakup of the federation, but I
3 just wanted to concentrate on the pre-breakup period,
4 if I could, for the moment. Because you've been kind
5 enough to bring the laws forward and I understand that
6 you are familiar with them.
7 Now, when it comes to the JNA, I take it you,
8 this is again pre-1990, the executive committee of the
9 municipality didn't have the authority to direct the
10 JNA in its operations; did it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Although, the JNA could come to the municipal
13 authorities and seek assistance, or probably demand
14 assistance, this is pre-1990, should that situation
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, both the Territorial Defence and the
18 JNA, prior to 1990, was a multi-ethnic, both were
19 multi-ethnic organisations, weren't they?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And indeed, they would deliberate, there was
22 a deliberate policy of ensuring that there was a
23 relatively even balance of ethnic groups in both those
24 organisations, the Territorial Defence and the JNA?
25 A. This was taken into account, but whether this
1 kind of balance was ensured; in the Territorial Defence
2 unit, yes, but not in the JNA, I think.
3 Q. And I think history has shown in the JNA it
4 was perhaps even abused, the principle, that is.
5 Now, when Bosnia-Herzegovina became an
6 independent country, all of this changed; didn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The highest level of the defence was in
9 Sarajevo, because that was the republican headquarters,
10 or the centre of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. It was the Ministry of Defence of
13 Q. That's right. And indeed, the JNA shifted
14 its allegiance to the Republic of Serbia.
15 A. The JNA came to Bosnia-Herzegovina, too, so I
16 think that they really focused on Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Q. The point I'm making, I'm talking about after
18 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the JNA in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina was at that stage a foreign force in
20 a sense, because it was a military force that had
21 aligned itself to the Republic of Serbia; that's true,
22 isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And so then, the defence of the Republic of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina was then left largely to the
1 remnants of the Territorial Defence?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And indeed, whatever JNA facilities came
4 available to the Territorial Defence?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Perhaps you might explain, then.
7 A. Well, I can explain the situation with a
8 large military warehouse where Territorial Defence
9 weapons were stored for the territory of some ten
10 municipalities. It was in Sljmena near Travnik. And
11 this warehouse was taken over by force, but the army
12 had mined certain facilities, certain storage houses.
13 So, these warehouses and military facilities
14 were not in all cases made available to the Territorial
15 Defence. Things were done by force, too.
16 Q. Yes, you're quite right and I should have
17 been more cautious with my generalisation. Certainly
18 there was a number of instances where the JNA itself
19 took over resources of the Territorial Defence, and I
20 wasn't disputing that. I was talking more about
21 facilities such as the Kaonik facility, it was a former
22 JNA unit.
23 A. Yes, it was taken over by the JNA.
24 Q. But we don't need to dwell on that. I'm just
25 trying to see if you can assist me with the general
2 Now, apart from the Territorial Defence units
3 which were organised during the course of 1992, from
4 Sarajevo; that's true, isn't it?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Well, you tell us what the position is,
8 A. The units of the Territorial Defence were
9 organised on the basis of this law that I spoke of, and
10 they were organised in that particular way. And later
11 on there were no new ways of organising it. It was as
12 they were when they were multi-ethnic.
13 The units of the Territorial Defence were, I
14 mean later, in the Territorial Defence units, I mean,
15 they were only formally called TO, Territorial Defence,
16 but these were really units of the Muslim Bosniaks.
17 So, it was not really in line with the regulations
18 originally envisaged.
19 Q. They couldn't be in line with the regulations
20 originally envisaged, could they, because the whole top
21 of the legislative structure had been removed: Namely,
22 the Socialist Federal Republic no longer existed;
23 that's true, isn't it?
24 A. It's true.
25 Q. But what remained was the level at the
1 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; that continued, didn't
3 A. Well, it didn't exactly continue to function.
4 It was supposed to continue functioning, but because of
5 the actual state of affairs that prevailed in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, it could not function. I mean,
7 they couldn't operate as Territorial Defence units.
8 Q. I'm not asking you to tell me about the
9 practical circumstances as such, I'm talking about the
10 legislative structure. We can come back to that.
11 It's true Sarajevo was under siege and
12 communications with municipalities was complicated; but
13 would you agree there was still a government in
14 Sarajevo and it was still purported, whether or not it
15 was accepted, it was still purported to be the
16 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's true, isn't
18 A. Well, yes, but the regulations remained the
19 same. No new regulations were passed by that
21 Q. No. And indeed, the regulations which you
22 relied on at the municipal level were the same
23 regulations that applied prior to the breakup of the
24 Socialist Republic, which is consistent with what
25 applied in Sarajevo at the republic level. You agree
1 with that?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. So, when you said earlier in your evidence
4 that your reporting responsibilities as such from the
5 municipal level went from the municipality up to the
6 regional or military district level, which was
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina; that in effect didn't change,
9 A. I mean, this military district no longer
10 existed, now there was a Ministry of Defence.
11 Q. And the Ministry of Defence was in Sarajevo.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And so, you would have had to report to the
14 Ministry of Defence in Sarajevo.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you report to the Ministry of Defence in
17 Sarajevo during the course of 1993?
18 A. Yes, I did. And a few times I met with the
19 Minister of Defence.
20 Q. And what was the purposes of your meeting
21 with the Minister of Defence in Sarajevo, or wherever
22 you met him?
23 A. Before 1992, before the attack on Sarajevo, I
24 met him then. And the point was to see what we were
25 supposed to do under such circumstances, when certain
1 units were turning against the people, and those were
2 the units for which we supplied conscripts.
3 Q. I'm sorry, I think you misheard my question.
4 I asked you during the course of 1993 did you report to
5 the Minister of Defence or the Ministry of Defence in
7 A. I couldn't, because there was no
8 communication. The communication was cut off before
9 that, as early as 1992.
10 Q. And that is also because the military forces
11 that were operational in the area of the municipality
12 for which you were responsible was the HVO.
13 A. At the beginning I was responsible for all
14 the military forces and the territory of the
15 municipality until February or March, 1992. And later
16 on, later on Muslims, Bosniaks who were in the
17 secretariat, they would mobilise people for their units
18 and we Croats would mobilise people for Croatian units.
19 Q. Yes, and in particular that was the position
20 in 1993 when the HVO was in conflict with the army of
22 A. At that time all links in terms of joint
23 efforts were cut.
24 Q. Now, the law that applied to, at a municipal
25 level and at a republican level continued on; did it
1 not, in 1993? I'm talking about these laws that you've
2 been referring to, the old laws of the SFRY.
3 A. They were taken over. They did not remain in
4 the same form. The organs of the Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina took over these regulations as the
6 organs of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna took
7 over these same regulations.
8 In fact, we worked according to the same
9 regulations, but we got them from different
11 Q. Well, they were taken over by, at least at
12 the level of the republic, they were taken over by the
13 government or by the government of the Republic of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina from the old SFRY?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where in the law of the Socialist Federal
17 Republic or at the level of the Republic of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina is there a provision which deals
19 with the HVO?
20 A. In these regulations there is not a single
21 provision regulating the work of the HVO. This is in
22 the regulations of the Croat community of Herceg-Bosna
23 at that time. But the regulations are the same.
24 Q. How do you say that the regulations that
25 relate to the recruiting of civilians could be applied
1 by the HVO when there was no link between that -- and
2 I'm talking about no legislative link -- between that
3 and the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993?
4 A. The continuity of the Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina was severed at that point, and we
6 Croats that lived in that area through the institution
7 of Herceg-Bosna, we ensured our existence within the
8 boundaries of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in order to
9 facilitate communication, in order to facilitate
10 supplies, but not for Croats only.
11 Q. So, within that territorial area of
12 Herceg-Bosna, you declared yourself independent,
13 whether it be directly or by implication, from the
14 central government of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo?
15 A. Well, I worked in the municipality, I did not
16 proclaim myself independent of anyone.
17 Q. You may have done, but you say that the laws
18 were applied by the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna
19 in relation to that territory as something separate and
20 distinct from the laws that were applied by the
21 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sarajevo; isn't
22 that true?
23 A. I did not say that the regulations were
24 different, I said they were the same; but the preamble,
25 the organ who handed it down to us was different.
1 Q. But you're not able to show us or point to
2 anything which permitted, as a matter of law, for the
3 HVO to operate as an independent military unit on this
4 territory; are you?
5 A. I have the decree on the armed forces of the
6 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, on the basis of
7 which we functioned.
8 Q. Of course. And no doubt the Croatian
9 community of Herceg-Bosna passed many laws during this
10 period, and I'm not quarrelling with that.
11 What I'm asking you, though, is to point to
12 the law that permits that community to enact its own
13 laws and to adopt regulations such as these.
14 A. I haven't got that.
15 Q. And that's because there is no law; is there?
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Sorry for interrupting.
17 Mr. Mikulicic.
18 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, I should just
19 like to draw your attention to one point and to make an
20 objection to the Prosecution. During the witness's
21 statement, the witness did not use any legal acts which
22 were brought in by the Croatian community of
23 Herceg-Bosna. What he used was the legal act which was
24 applied for the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina
25 according to the principle of taking it over from
1 federal regulations, the former federal regulations.
2 As opposed to this, my learned colleague the Prosecutor
3 implied that he referred to acts which were enacted
4 within the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna. That
5 was not the case, and I should like to make an
6 objection in that sense for the Prosecution's method of
8 And I should also like to make an objection
9 in view of the fact that my learned colleague, with his
10 questions, out stepped the boundaries of the questions
11 asked by the defence. My colleague, the Prosecutor is
12 asking the witness things about political
13 organisational structures, which we did not bring up in
14 the examination-in-chief.
15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, firstly, there
16 seems to be this myth that cross-examination is limited
17 only to what is raised in evidence-in-chief and I think
18 we have canvassed this on numerous occasions before.
19 In no jurisdiction where cross-examination is a feature
20 of the adversarial trial process am I aware of any
21 situation where cross-examination is limited only to
22 matters raised in-chief. Cross-examination is
23 regulated by whether it is relevant or not, or
24 harassing, or other rules; but never have I known it to
25 be limited to simply matters raised in-chief.
1 Secondly, dealing with the other issue, it's
2 a little bit disingenuous for the Defence to call a
3 witness before the Chamber who purports to lay before
4 you the foundation upon which they say they and others
5 acted in this particular region during 1993, and say
6 this is the legal foundation of it then to object when
7 I seek to explore the foundation of this law.
8 It's all very well to pull a law out of the
9 air and say it was relied on, and it's another matter,
10 indeed, to say this is the legislative foundation of
11 that law on which we relied. And it's the legislative
12 foundation which I'm seeking to explore. Because, Your
13 Honours, if we can be pointed to know legitimate
14 legislative foundation, then it doesn't matter what the
15 law is, it has no application.
16 And I presume what is sought to be done at
17 the end of the day is to be said, well, all these
18 people did engage in trench digging but it was done in
19 accordance with the law; so therefore, there is nothing
20 wrong because people were taken out in accordance with
21 the law.
22 If that's what is sought to be achieved, and
23 I assume that's what Mr. Mikulicic is seeking to do,
24 then it's entirely appropriate for me to say, what is
25 this law, and what is its foundation.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I have discussed the matter
2 with my colleagues and the Trial Chamber thinks that
3 the Defence has called this witness in order for the
4 witness to explain to the Trial Chamber the legal
5 foundations of the laws governing the units of civilian
6 work. At least that's how we have understood the
7 calling by the Defence of this witness.
8 But we also think that the goal of the
9 Defence is to give to the Trial Chamber a certain
10 number of informations relating to the political
11 military problems, the problems arising from the
12 arrival of refugees in the region, the problems of
13 detention of certain civilians by the Croats, all this,
14 of course, within the framework of the territory of the
15 Lasva Valley.
16 This is what interests us directly, as this
17 is what is directly linked to the charges brought
18 against Mr. Aleksovski. We are interested about what
19 happened in Kaonik and in the Lasva Valley area.
20 We always have to keep this in mind, we want
21 some general information on the general background
22 prevailing at the time, and I think Mr. Neimann is
23 quite right, it is always useful to repeat time and
24 again that what has happened in the Lasva Valley are
25 the very heart of the case against Mr. Aleksovski.
1 Yet, we cannot limit ourselves exclusively to
2 the Kaonik camp. We have to try to understand the
3 general background of this case. Therefore, the Trial
4 Chamber, taking all this into account, decides that
5 Mr. Neimann is entitled to put any questions he wishes
6 to the witness, and the witness will just answer these
7 questions if he is able to give an answer to these
9 This is our decision, and, Mr. Neimann, you
10 are invited to proceed.
11 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours, please.
12 Q. So, Mr. Rajic, my question was that there was
13 no foundation law which permitted the adoption of these
14 old laws by the Croatian community of Herzeg-Bosna?
15 That was my question. That's correct, isn't it?
16 A. You said that that is your opinion. I simply
17 can't recall everything. A lot of time has gone by.
18 But, I think that we did have regulations according to
19 which we functioned in the municipalities and which
20 were legal, so to speak, lawful.
21 Q. I don't want to dwell on this topic, Mr.
22 Rajic, for much longer. I merely wanted to ask you, if
23 you could, to point to any such law, but I understand
24 entirely. It's been some time now if you're unable to
25 do that. If you're unable to do that, please just say
2 A. I have a regulation here with me. This is a
3 regulation relating to the armed forces of Croatian
4 community of Herzeg-Bosna adopted on the 3rd of July,
6 Q. And that was adopted by the Croatian
7 community of Herzeg-Bosna?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But just to complete this point, you can't
10 point to a law of either the federal former socialist
11 federal Republic of Yugoslavia or a law of the Republic
12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which would permit the Croatian
13 community of Herzeg-Bosna to adopt or apply these
14 laws? And that's my point.
15 A. Well, I can't show you that now, no.
16 Q. Now, I want to move on, if I may, to these
17 local work units that were established. Can you tell
18 us where they were operational, geographically?
19 A. Well, they were operational in every
21 Q. And were they operational in the Municipality
22 of Busovaca?
23 A. They should have been, yes.
24 Q. Did you have any connection with supplying
25 civilian work units to the Busovaca area or
2 A. No.
3 Q. Well, who is responsible for that?
4 A. I don't understand your question.
5 Q. I'm sorry. I should have told you and I'm
6 sorry I didn't. I am talking about 1993 in that period
7 of time. I have moved forward to 1993. I am asking
8 you, during the first half of 1993, were you in any way
9 involved, yourself, personally, in relation to the
10 supply of civilian work units to the Municipality of
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well can you tell me who was?
14 A. The commander of the department for the
15 defence of Busovaca.
16 Q. And did you have any connection whatsoever
17 with the department of the defence of Busovaca?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was your connection to the department of
20 defence of Busovaca?
21 A. Well, quite simply, with the head we would
22 exchange experiences with the head of the department of
23 how, in the best possible way, we could work under the
24 given circumstances which were very difficult indeed.
25 Q. And were you in a position of authority or
1 superior to the head of the department of defence of
3 A. No.
4 Q. So you couldn't give any orders or directions
5 in relation to what happened in that municipality?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you limited only to the Municipality of
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So all of the evidence that you've given here
11 today relates merely -- well, won't say merely, I
12 withdraw that. Relates entirely to the Municipality of
13 Travnik and no other municipality?
14 A. As far as the functioning and collecting the
15 units of the work duties, this refers to all the
16 municipalities. Because that was the method of work in
17 all the municipalities.
18 Q. Well, who was responsible overall for the
19 function and collecting of the units for work duties?
20 Was that you?
21 A. Among others, I was one of them, but there
22 were the commanders of the units if a situation
23 required this.
24 Q. And the commanders of the units would be
25 commanders of the HVO units?
1 A. Members of the HVO, the commanders of the
2 HVO, if it was their members. If it was the HV, then
3 it would be those commanders.
4 Q. And isn't it true that you were responsible
5 for the HVO units? And I say that, perhaps I should
6 clarify that for you. Responsible for the HVO units in
7 supplying, ultimately, the civilian work facility?
8 A. I am not sure I understood your question.
9 Q. It wasn't very clear and I agree with that.
10 A. In what sense am I responsible?
11 Q. Let me break up the question a bit for you.
12 I am not asking you about what happened right down the
13 command level. I accept what you say, that from time
14 to time commanders could recruit civilians to carry
15 out -- will carry out work duties for them. I accept
16 that as part of the chain of command they could do
17 that. But you're in a position, were you not, above
18 the level of the commanders and you had a direct
19 involvement with the civilian work duties that were
20 carried out, didn't you?
21 A. You said above the commanders. I don't know
22 what you're referring to. If you're referring to the
23 units of the HVO, I was not above them. I was just a
24 service for them.
25 Q. Well, tell us then, perhaps you might help
1 us. Tell us what you were in service for then? What
2 were the parameters of your responsibility and duties
3 in relation to HVO units, particularly in the Busovaca
4 area, that were operational in the Busovaca area in
6 A. In the area of Busovaca, I had no
7 competencies. But, as the head of the department for
8 defence, I had to ensure enough food. If there was not
9 enough food from the regular reserves, then we had to
10 take some food from people who had surpluses. And in
11 order to ensure food for the units. If we had to find
12 a vehicle of some kind for certain duties, work duties,
13 then that too would be the role and function of the
14 defence department in wartime.
15 Q. And did that include the Busovaca area? Did
16 it include Busovaca as well as other areas? That's the
17 point I am trying to make.
18 A. Yes, but there was somebody else, another
19 head of department was responsible there, not me.
20 Q. Thank you. So whenever you -- I just needed
21 to clarify that, because I must admit, I was confused
22 and thought that you had a responsibility for Busovaca
23 as well.
24 Well, can you tell us then how many work
25 units were operational, for example, in your area,
1 seeing we have to rely on your evidence as a
2 comparative basis only. When I am talking about work
3 units, I am talking about civilian work units.
4 A. There were four work units and they had about
5 150 members. 150 men in the work units for the area in
6 which I was in command.
7 Q. And, once again, that was the Travnik area?
8 A. Yes, but only for the Croats. Because, as I
9 say, the Muslim Bosniaks had their own units and their
10 own duties.
11 Q. And all of those four units of 150 people
12 were located in the Municipality of Travnik?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And were you responsible for conscripting
15 people to these work units? Was that a duty that you
16 had personally?
17 A. It wasn't my personal duty, I had other
19 Q. Was it a responsibility that had come under
20 your general authority? You may have had some other
21 person physically do it for you, but did it come under
22 your general authority?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was your equivalent in the Municipality
25 of Busovaca?
1 A. The commander was Gavro Maric at the time.
2 The head was Gavro Maric.
3 Q. Are you saying Busovaca didn't have a
4 Ministry of Defence as such in its municipality?
5 A. No, it did have, it did have.
6 Q. Well, who was that?
7 A. I just said, Gavro Maric.
8 Q. I thought you said he was the commander. The
9 commander and the secretary of defence.
10 A. Yes, one is a civilian, the second is a
11 soldier, it was the head.
12 Q. When you wish to deploy, if I may call it
13 that, civilian work units at a particular location, who
14 is responsible for giving the order to that in normal
15 circumstances, where, say if those circumstances where
16 a commander had to act in an emergency. That was just
17 normal circumstances, who is responsible for saying
18 this particular work unit will work here?
19 A. It was the military, competent military
21 Q. Well, what reference was there then to you as
22 secretary of defence in the municipality when it came
23 to deploying these civilian work units?
24 A. We had to inform those individuals to inform
25 as many -- to see how many people we needed and to
1 ensure the necessary material needs if that was
2 required for us. For example, if we're dealing with
3 shovels and picks and axes and so on. Under normal
4 conditions, of course.
5 Q. And where was the equipment ordinarily
6 obtained from? Where did you obtain the equipment for
7 these civilian units?
8 A. Well, there were warehouses of the civil
9 defence units. And like the warehouses of the
10 Territorial Defence, they were emptied. But also we
11 could tell the recruits, the conscripted people, to
12 take with them the tools that were needed.
13 Q. And, presumably, if you told them to do that,
14 they would be taking them from their own houses and
15 things, it would be their own personal equipment?
16 A. Yes, yes, from their own homes, yes.
17 Q. How are the civilian defence -- or, sorry,
18 the civilian work units organised? Is there a
19 commander or somebody in charge?
20 A. In Travnik there was some 30 odd people and
21 he was called the commander of the work unit or work
22 platoon. But he was just an individual responsible.
23 That is to say, he knew where his people were at any
24 given moment and he was there to see that these people
25 were equipped with what they needed.
1 But there were also cases where if the
2 situation called for this in emergency situations and a
3 line had been broken and had the be seen to, the
4 military police would go out and bring in the civilians
5 that it came across first and then they would escort
6 these civilians to the work post and back once they had
7 seen to a given situation and put it right.
8 Q. And when they did that, did the military
9 police deal directly with a commander of the civilian
10 work units or did they just go up and gather people up
11 off the street?
12 A. If -- very often the military police did not
13 know who the commander of a certain work unit was. So
14 then they did this themselves, they would collect the
15 people, the civilians themselves.
16 Q. So when they -- I'm sorry. You were saying
17 something? I thought I cut you off, sorry. So when
18 the military police randomly selected persons off the
19 street, not knowing who the commander of the regular
20 civilian work units were, then they would presumably be
21 acting according to some different law to the ones that
22 you've shown us today in the course of your evidence?
23 A. There were no other laws.
24 Q. So there is no legal foundation then for
25 military police to gather up people and take them to
1 the front and have them perform work duties there?
2 A. I did not say that.
3 Q. Well perhaps you might assist us with what
4 the position is as you understood it?
5 A. I did not say that there was no legal
6 foundation for the actions of the military police.
7 Q. No, I said that. And I thought you'd
8 disagreed with it, and, if you have, please tell us
9 what the legal foundation was.
10 A. I don't know how the military police acted.
11 The military police acted on the basis of the
12 regulations taken over from the former Yugoslavia.
13 Q. But not in accordance with these regulations
14 that you've taken us through, there are some other
15 regulations, are there?
16 A. No, those regulations were taken over. And
17 it was done on the basis of those regulations.
18 Q. Can you assist us by perhaps referring to the
19 particular regulation that the military police relied
20 on to randomly collect people off the street and take
21 them to the front. Can you help us by telling us what
22 regulation it? And you might read it out for us
23 because we don't have a translation.
24 A. When I quoted those regulations, I mentioned
25 in Article 6 what these provisions were and on what
1 basis the military police could collect people to carry
2 out such work duty. Because these regulations were
3 taken over by the authorities of Herzeg-Bosna too,
4 fully at that. I don't know in which official gazette
5 it was published and when. I cannot remember that
7 Q. Yes. Unfortunately, we're all working under
8 somewhat of a disadvantage here because we have the
9 article in Article 6. But unfortunately it's not
10 translated, so we can't readily see the exact part that
11 you're referring to. I am wondering if you'd be so
12 kind just to help us, just to read out that particular
13 part that you say that the military police relied on.
14 Would you be so kind to do that for us?
15 A. The part that related to the military police
16 was not regulated by these particular regulations, not
17 even in the former Yugoslavia. No specific mention is
18 made of the military police here. This is in lower
19 bylaws, that is where it was regulated. I don't know
20 exactly how the military police operates. And I don't
21 know the regulations on the basis of which they
22 operated because I never encountered this in my
24 Q. That's fine, thank you. I just wanted to
25 clarify that, if I could. Now, tell me, when it comes
1 to the civilian work units that were properly
2 constituted under these laws, and I am not talking
3 about -- I am not talking about police units, I am
4 talking about the ones you've spoken of, the four in
5 Travnik that have a commander and so forth. Did the
6 commander have the authority to direct the works that
7 were required to be done?
8 A. It depends. On some occasions he could, they
9 would obey him and on other occasions they wouldn't.
10 It depended on the situation, really, that prevailed at
11 that particular point in time. I don't know. Well, he
12 was superior to them and he was a liaison between these
13 people with whom he worked and also the military
14 commander in charge. He was not the military commander
15 himself, I mean not in a military sense.
16 Q. But presumably, if it was decided that
17 certain fortifications had to be done at a particular
18 location after discussion with the military commander,
19 the commander of the civilian work unit would then go
20 off to this place and carry out whatever had to be
21 done, that's how it would work, wouldn't it?
22 A. It functioned that way too, but not only in
23 that way.
24 Q. Okay. Well, I might get you to tell us about
25 the exceptions, but we'll just concentrate on this for
1 a moment.
2 A. Well, it wasn't really exceptions. That's
3 the way it functioned more or less. But then the
4 military police itself, I mean, you know, whether they
5 brought people in on their own, I mean, to carry out
6 certain duties, that's what I am referring to.
7 Q. I don't want to address the issue of the
8 military police. I am talking about the work units
9 that were established under these laws that you've
10 shown us. I am only concentrating on them. Can you
11 tell me the chain of command, if it were, from the
12 civilian work unit commander, who did he report to?
13 Who was his immediate superior?
14 A. His immediate superior was the commander of
15 the unit to which that work unit was attached to. And
16 that could have been at any level, at the level of any
17 unit, all the way up to a brigade.
18 Q. I see. So when a work unit was deployed with
19 a military unit, an HVO unit, then how it functioned on
20 the ground was that the commander of the work unit was
21 answerable to the military commander; is that correct?
22 A. Answerable? Well, in a way, yes, he was
23 answerable to him because he was subordinated to him
24 because he was attached to his unit.
25 Q. So, at that level, at least, you had a coming
1 together of both the civilian and the military
2 facilities, so you had with the military unit being
4 A. Well, you see, the work platoon was supposed
5 to help the military unit to which it was attached, so
6 it was only natural that they would be in charge.
7 Q. And the people that were recruited to the
8 civilian work units, and I am talking about the ones
9 under the regulations, were from the same ethnic
10 background, I take it, as people recruited to the HVO
11 itself? In other words, they were Croats in 1993?
12 A. They were not from that ethnic group. The
13 majority were Croats, but they were not the same
14 because I already said that the members of another
15 ethnic group, who did not wish to fight other members
16 of their same ethnic group, it wasn't moral for them to
17 be forced through work to do that. So they were,
18 therefore, in the work units.
19 Q. So what you're saying is that you couldn't
20 morally force Muslims to fight for the HVO, but you had
21 no compunction in compelling Muslims to dig trenches
22 for the HVO, is that the effect of what your evidence
24 A. That was the obligation of all and that is
25 the way everybody operated. That is the way it was all
2 Q. But the Croatian community of Herzeg-Bosna
3 was separate and distinct from the government in
4 Sarajevo, wasn't it, which you say represented the
6 A. There was no difference. One worked for the
7 members of their people and others worked for the
8 members of their people. They did not differ in their
9 mode of operation.
10 Q. No, they may have done the same thing, but
11 they were separate, weren't they? They had separated
12 in 1993, there is no secret about that, surely?
13 They're at war.
14 You spoke in your evidence about the
15 increasing tensions in late 1992 and 1993. It's the
16 position, isn't it, that, at that stage, the Croatian
17 community of Herzeg-Bosna was -- it had as one of its
18 policies, a plan to have an area separately governed
19 for the Croatian community itself as opposed to other
20 communities such as Muslims or Serbs? That's true,
21 isn't it?
22 A. That is not true.
23 Q. Well, you tell us what is true then in terms
24 of the policies of the Croatian community of
1 A. As regards to the policies of the Croat
2 community of Herzeg-Bosna, at that time, that was the
3 only possible way of organising the Croat people on the
4 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and providing for their
6 Q. And when the Muslim refugees started to
7 arrive in the Lasva Valley in large numbers, that
8 presented an immediate threat, did it not, to the aims
9 of the Croatian community of Herzeg-Bosna?
1 A. No, it did not constitute a threat to the
2 aims of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, they
3 were not a threat generally speaking. It became a
4 threat when foreign people came with foreign
5 ideologies, from foreign countries, and also with a lot
6 of publishing activity.
7 I think that the consequences, the effects of
8 this can be seen today. That is, a number of people
9 who espoused a certain ideology which was alien to that
10 area before, and that was the source of tensions.
11 Q. Surely you would have been aware of Roman
12 Catholic charitable organisations, humanitarian
13 organisations operating in both the Republic of Croatia
14 and in the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna during
15 this period. You would have been aware of that;
16 wouldn't you?
17 A. I know about the activities of several
18 Catholic organisations, charitable organisations, but I
19 did not see a single official of any one of these
20 organisations distributing humanitarian aid with a
21 Kalasnikov in his hand, which was not the case with
22 others. And we all saw that and felt it, regrettably.
23 Q. But presumably if one was to be subjective
24 and you would agree with me that someone of the Muslim
25 religion may feel equally intimidated by organisations
1 with Roman Catholic background operating in this
2 particular region.
3 A. There were no crusaders, that I can say with
4 full responsibility. The only activity that was
5 present there was humanitarian aid. And it is
6 precisely in this area, in the Lasva Valley that a
7 considerable number of people arrived who were not
8 well-intentioned. They pretended to be humanitarians,
9 but later on it became obvious they were the Mujahedin
10 who were there until the present day, and unfortunately
11 they managed to recruit quite a few young people,
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Neimann, I believe it
14 is now time to make a break. I guess everybody is a
15 little tired, including the witness. We will take a
16 20-minute break.
17 --- Recess taken at 11.50
1 --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Please proceed,
3 Mr. Neimann.
4 MR. NIEMANN:
5 Q. Mr. Rajic, the people that you spoke of are
6 the influx of refugees, numbering 120.000, where had
7 they come from, mostly, those people?
8 A. Mostly from the Bosanska-Krajina region.
9 Q. And these people were Muslims, were they?
10 A. Not only Muslims; but far the greater
11 majority were Muslims.
12 Q. And if they weren't only Muslims, what other
13 ethnic groups were represented in these refugees?
14 A. There was some Croats, as well. But they
15 continued further on towards Croatia.
16 Q. And I take it that the appearance of the
17 Croats was not a matter that concerned you or caused
18 any increase in tension, it was only the appearance of
19 the Muslim refugees.
20 A. Well, not tension, but there was a negligible
21 number of Croats for them to have any greater effect on
22 the demographic ratio.
23 Q. The demographic ratio in your municipality is
24 a matter of some concern to you; isn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In fact, you take the view that the
2 maintenance of a majority of Croatian people in your
3 municipality is the only way and the best way to
4 maintain a peaceful and harmonious community?
5 A. No, Travnik was never a majority Croatian
7 Q. Okay. Well, maintaining at least a sizeable
8 representation of Croatians is a matter that is of
9 interest to you in the Travnik municipality.
10 A. The problem isn't in the people who came here
11 who were poor refugees, because that initial period I
12 was at the head of the command for the taking in of
13 refugees, while we worked in the same organs or
14 institutions together with the Croats and Bosniaks
16 But as I said a moment ago, with the
17 activities of people coming from outside, from other
18 countries, and I have in mind here the Arab and Islamic
19 countries; and through their activities, that was when
20 we Croats felt threatened, jeopardised.
21 Until that time, the people did not represent
22 a danger, because we were there to fight a common
23 enemy. But, with the coming of these people from
24 outside with other ideas, people who had not come to
25 defend Bosnia-Herzegovina, but to expand other ideas,
1 that is when we felt this numeric superiority and this
2 demographic disbalance have an adverse effect.
3 Q. But the people from places other than
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, such as the Arab and Islamic
5 people, there weren't 120.000 in number; were they?
6 A. No, not them, but a number, a portion of
7 those people came in and started disseminating their
9 Q. And because of that, you decided, then, that
10 the whole of the Muslim people in the area became a
12 A. No, that was not what we decided. It was a
13 fact in its own right, it was no decision on our part.
14 Q. I believe in 1997, I know we're moving on,
15 but it's on the same topic, there was an exodus of
16 Croats from the Travnik municipality; wasn't there? A
17 large number of Croatian people left that area?
18 A. '97, you said? I don't know about that
19 particular fact.
20 Q. It's just that I have a summary of media and
21 it's reported that you said that the exodus of Croats
22 from Travnik harbringings (sic) the end of the Croat
23 existence, not only the Lasva Valley but throughout the
24 central Bosnian Canton. You said that, did you?
25 A. I never made a statement of that kind.
1 Q. You're speaking of the Lasva Valley and its
2 importance in terms of its communication lines. The
3 town of Busovaca itself, though, is not on that
4 communication line; is it?
5 A. Yes, it is along that communication line
6 towards Sarajevo and Zenica.
7 Q. Well, it's slightly off it, isn't it?
8 Doesn't the communication line run along the Lasva
9 Valley itself, between Sarajevo and Travnik?
10 A. Yes, but the Kaonik camp is 100 metres from
11 that main communication line where the town of Busovaca
12 is just one kilometre away.
13 Q. In addition to your duties and
14 responsibilities of calling up people for civilian
15 work, did you ever have any responsibility for calling
16 up people for mobilising people for the purposes of the
17 army itself. Was that ever a duty that you had?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when, what was it that brought about you
20 issuing such a call up? How would it happen? Who
21 decided that more troops were required that would cause
22 to you instigate this action?
23 A. Well, first of all, general mobilisation was
24 claimed for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on the basis of
25 that call, according to the order we had, the
1 department for defence, each individual knew his
2 position and role and unit or military defence unit or
3 civilian defence unit, every individual knew his place.
4 And so, in addition to this public call up,
5 there were also individual written call ups,
6 invitations, which were taken by courier to the
8 But as I say, this was under the conditions
9 when the situation allowed us to function in that way;
10 whereas, if the units had been left without enough men,
11 for example, we would have recruits on our list, but
12 they were perhaps sent to Croatia and was doing work
13 there and we couldn't reach him, for example, and we
14 had to fill his place with somebody else. Then we
15 would send somebody else instead of him to fill that
16 place, and he was sent there.
17 Q. Now, the people that you called up,
18 particularly in 1993, were issued new call up notices
19 in 1993, they were on behalf of the Croatian community
20 of Herceg-Bosna; weren't they?
21 A. Well, there was no need for any new call up
22 notices, then, because up to that time all the people
23 were engaged in some locality or other.
24 Q. Are you saying there was no call ups in --
25 I've got a document here 28th of May, 1993, there were
1 no call ups around about that time?
2 A. Well, just to fill in the gaps of the people
3 who were absent. But most people had already taken up
4 their positions by that time.
5 Q. I see, you're saying it's not a general
6 mobilisation but you did mobilise on a small-scale?
7 A. Yes, individual call ups.
8 Q. And the point is those individual call ups
9 were on behalf of the Croatian community of
11 A. For the region which was under my control,
13 Q. And was there any particular law that you
14 relied on to call up people to join the forces of the
15 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, commonly known as
16 the HVO?
17 A. We used the regulations taken over from the
18 SFRY and the social list Republic of
20 Q. And I think when you were speaking of --
21 excuse me -- when you were giving your evidence
22 in-chief, I think you spoke of those particular laws,
23 these, and you refer in particular to these regulations
24 which you relied on, as being laws that had been
25 originally passed with the intention, or what they
1 envisaged was being applied against a foreign enemy or
2 a foreign enemy was in mind.
3 Do you remember saying that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And I think you would agree with me that
6 certainly these laws would never have been passed with
7 the intention that they would be applied to citizens of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina against the army of
10 A. I do have anything to think about there. It
11 was a regulation that we all applied in
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, regardless of what side. We all
13 took over that regulation.
14 Q. But can you agree with me that when the laws
15 originally were passed in 1980's, it never would have
16 been envisaged that they would have been applied to
17 citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina against the army of
19 A. I'm not quite clear as to the question.
20 Q. Well, I don't know whether I can make it any
21 clearer for you. I'm talking about when the laws were
22 originally passed, you said in your evidence that they
23 were envisioned to be applied against a foreign enemy.
24 Well, the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina
25 could hardly be said to be a foreign enemy; surely.
1 A. No, no, they weren't.
2 Q. And in a similar vein, it could never have
3 been envisaged when these laws were passed in the
4 1980s, that they would be applied by the community such
5 as the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna to be
6 deployed, for people to be deployed against the army of
8 A. Well, this was probably not provided for, but
9 I don't know why you set aside the army of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We are all citizens of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and just as the Muslim Bosniaks had
12 their military units, we had our own units, too.
13 Q. Now, when you had meetings of the
14 municipality meetings in Travnik, minutes were taken of
15 those meetings; weren't they?
16 A. Yes, as a rule meetings are taken, minutes
17 are taken at meetings.
18 Q. And those minutes would provide for a
19 particular date and time, they would set out the date
20 and time of the meeting?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. They would also set out the number of the
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in 1993 they are referred to as meetings
1 of the HVO municipality of Travnik, were they?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the minutes would set out the members who
4 participated in the meeting?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The agenda?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. And any conclusions that would have been
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. And in addition to that, the minutes would
12 then be signed by the president?
13 A. The president, or if he is not there, the
14 chairman of the meeting.
15 Q. I see. I have here a document, if you would
16 look at it for me, please.
17 MR. NEIMANN: There is copies for Your
18 Honours and a copy for the Defence.
19 THE REGISTRAR: 136 and 136 A for the English
21 MR. NIEMANN: I've given a copy to the
22 Defence, I think.
23 Q. Mr. Rajic, would you look through that
24 document, the photocopy, the one in the Croatian
25 language, it's not a very good document in terms of its
1 copy, but would you just have a little look through it
2 for me, please? Just a quick glance, I don't expect
3 you to read every part of it.
4 Does that document look familiar to you as a
5 copy of the minutes of the Croatian community of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the municipality of Travnik in
7 April of 1993?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I think you will see there under
10 conclusions of the minutes of the 10th of April, 1993,
11 a particular reference in paragraph 1. You see
12 conclusions in paragraph 1, and it makes a reference to
13 the burning of the Croatian flag which is something you
14 discussed in your evidence-in-chief. Do you remember
15 saying that in-chief, when you gave your evidence,
16 answers to Mr. Mikulicic? You referred to that
18 A. Yes, I did, but not one flag was burned, but
19 all the flags were burned which were hung out in
20 Travnik for Easter on that day.
21 Q. Fair enough.
22 A. There were about ten of them.
23 Q. Fair enough. And I take it that the
24 reference here to the burning of the flag is the same
25 incident that you referred to when you gave your
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I just wanted to ask you some questions about
4 this document, if I may. Do you see where it refers on
5 the first page to the agenda, and it speaks of the
6 conclusions of 55. Do you see that on the first page,
7 conclusions of 55? I take it that's conclusions of the
8 previous meeting; is that what that means?
9 A. Probably, yes.
10 Q. And that is meetings of the HVO?
11 A. Yes, the municipal HVO of Travnik.
12 Q. Now, just going over to the conclusions,
13 which I referred you to a moment ago, do you see in
14 paragraph 2, there, a reference to Dr. Tudjman? Do you
15 see that paragraph?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I think the effect of that paragraph is
18 that they ought to be informed of the events that
19 occurred, and I assume that's the burning of the flags.
20 Is that what that means?
21 A. Up until then there were other incidents in
22 which the victims were Croats, and the burning of the
23 flags was just one of the reasons for holding this
24 meeting. There were other reasons why the meeting was
25 held. Of course there were other incidents as well, I
1 mentioned some of them.
2 Q. And the reason why you would report this to
3 Dr. Tudjman was because he was directly interested in
4 events that were happening in the area under the
5 community of Herceg-Bosna at that time?
6 A. They were not only events in the Croatian
7 Republic of Herceg-Bosna, the whole of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, what was left, which the Serbian
9 forces had not taken over, were directed towards,
10 exclusively towards Croatia.
11 And it was our aim to find, to try and find
12 ways and means of preventing a conflict from breaking
13 out, along with the assistance of Mr. Tudjman, because
14 we all were supplied with both food supplies and energy
15 supplies and weapons and all communications went via
16 Croatia. Both for the Croats and for the Muslim
18 Q. And in fact, the Republic of Croatia had by
19 the 9th of April, 1993, had their own troops there as
20 well, didn't they, HV troops?
21 A. No, you said that. I never said that. Nor
22 were there any Croatian, units of the Croatian army in
23 Central Bosnia.
24 Q. They say in the next paragraph, paragraph 3,
25 it speaks of emphasis on coordination of the
1 municipalities of Mostar, Novi Travnik, Busovaca and
2 Vitez. Do you see that paragraph?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. And it says that relations with all the
5 representatives of the Muslim nation are to be frozen,
6 especially in those areas. Do you see that?
7 A. Well, you see, those who were present at the
8 meeting, I mean these people could not pass a decision
9 on freezing relations in Travnik, Mostar, Novi Travnik,
10 Vitez. We simply had to consult, to coordinate our
11 efforts to see what was to be done in view of the
12 situation. I wish to note that the incident with the
13 flags was only a manifestation which had much deeper
14 causes in terms of everything that was happening in
15 Travnik and in order to reach this kind of conclusion.
16 And I know quite a lot about that.
17 Q. And why were the municipalities of Mostar and
18 Novi Travnik, Busovaca and Vitez, especially singled
19 out as opposed to other municipalities?
20 A. Well, because Vitez, Busovaca, Novi Travnik
21 and Travnik are one entity. And, they simply cannot
22 operate without one another. Not a single one of these
23 municipalities can simply divorce itself from the
24 others. And Muslim Bosniaks also worked there in that
25 an area because that is what the situation was like
2 Q. Okay. Now, moving on, if I may, over to the
3 next document, which appears on the last page, I
4 believe, of the Croatian version. Just take your time
5 to read it.
6 A. I have read it.
7 Q. Yes, that makes reference then to a meeting
8 by people such as the commander of operative zone,
9 Central Bosnia, Tihomir Blaskic, and others who are to
10 meet with the minister of defence of the Republic of
12 A. Yes, that's what it says in the conclusions.
13 Q. And it says regarding support, what sort of
14 support was envisaged by that?
15 A. As far as NTS is concerned, it is primarily
16 armaments and military equipment that are in question
17 and the rest, military uniforms, fuel, and things like
18 that, but it is not a secret. That is Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina, Bosnia-Herzegovina was both HVO and
20 BH-Army. And in terms of logistics, we relied on
22 Q. Now it makes reference there to the operative
23 zone, Central Bosnia. What's that? What's the
24 operative zone, Central Bosnia? What does that mean?
25 A. Operative zone is an area of responsibility
1 of a command on that area, on that territory, perhaps
2 that's the way I can put it.
3 Q. Is that a military zone?
4 A. Operative zone is a military zone.
5 Q. And, presumably, that had its own
6 organisational structure, did it?
7 A. I think it did.
8 Q. And according to these minutes here, Blaskic
9 was the commander of that zone?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And, presumably, when the commander of the
12 zone or other persons in that zone wish to issue orders
13 or give directions, they would sign themselves as being
14 in a particular part or at a particular rank in the
15 Central Bosnia operative zone under Mr. Blaskic?
16 A. It is that way.
17 Q. So, if you were to see, for example, a stamp
18 that was stamped the Central Bosnia Operative Zone,
19 Travnik defence department, then whoever affixed that
20 stamp would be part of that structure and
22 A. I am not aware of such a stamp where it says
23 operative zone and the defence department of Travnik.
24 There was no such stamp.
25 Q. Okay. Well, let me help you with that then.
1 Would you look at Exhibit D 21 B. Might the witness be
2 shown Exhibit D 21 B. Now I would just like you to
3 concentrate on the stamp itself. And if you want to
4 have a closer look at it, please don't hesitate to pick
5 up the document and look at it and put it back on the
6 machine. But I would like you to look at the document
7 closely for me, if you would. And especially the
8 stamp, the stamp.
9 A. Yes, I saw it.
10 Q. Have you ever seen that stamp before?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were in the Travnik defence department,
13 weren't you, that was your department?
14 A. Yes, but this is an office not a department.
15 There is a difference between the office and the
17 Q. Fair enough. But my point is that the people
18 authorised to affix this particular seal would be part
19 of the organisation of the Central Bosnia operative
21 A. This is a military prison and it is quite
22 logical that it should be part of it.
23 Q. Just excuse me for a moment, I need to read
24 something. Now, when giving your evidence earlier in
25 answer to one of my questions, and I will read out the
1 question from the transcript so you can refresh your
2 memory from it. And I was talking about the functions
3 of the civilian work units at the time. And I asked
4 you this question. I said, "Well, who was responsible
5 overall for the function and collecting of units for
6 work duties?" And I said, "Was that you?" And you
7 said, "Among others, I was one of them, but there were
8 commanders of the units if a situation required this."
9 And then I asked you the question:
10 "Q: And the commanders of the units would be
11 commanders of the HVO units?"
12 And your answer was this:
13 "A: Members of the HVO, the commanders of the
14 HVO, if it was their members, if it was the HV, then it
15 would be those commanders."
16 What did you mean by that?
17 A. Not at a single point in time did I say that
18 it was the Croat army. There was no Croat army there.
19 And they could not be in a position at all to issue
20 call ups to these people who had duty assignments. I
21 mean physically they were not there. If we, the Croats
22 in Bosnia and Herzegovina are the people in question,
23 that it is a different matter.
24 Q. Now, finally, the regulations that you drew
25 our attention to and showed us do not in anywhere
1 relate to prisoners of war or persons being detained
2 under the Geneva Conventions do they?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And you would agree with me, I think, that
5 persons being detained as prisoners of war, or as
6 civilians under the Geneva Conventions, that that law
7 in Yugoslavia, and in everywhere else on earth, the
8 Geneva Conventions would prevail over these
10 A. I think they do prevail. I don't see what
11 else I can answer.
12 Q. So in no sense of the word are you suggesting
13 that these regulations would apply to persons who were
14 afforded the protection of the Geneva Conventions?
15 A. I think they do not relate to that.
16 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have
18 any further questions you would wish to put to the
20 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour, just
21 a few questions in order to clarify certain parts of
22 the statement made by this witness.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:
24 Q. Mr. Rajic, when you explained to us and
25 quoted the text of those decrees which regulate work
1 duty, you said then that these decrees were actually
2 issued during the former Yugoslavia; is that true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What happened when the Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina became independent in terms of the
6 regulations of the former Yugoslavia?
7 A. Most regulations of the former Yugoslavia
8 were taken over because there wasn't time or was there
9 the possibility to pass so many laws and other legal
10 enactments during such a short period of time.
11 Q. I understand that. So, Mr. Rajic, does that
12 mean that the decrees you spoke of became regulations
13 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as they were
14 taken over?
15 A. Precisely.
16 Q. Is it accurate to say that these regulations
17 that you invoked and which were taken over, thus
18 becoming regulations of the Republic of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, were not therefore passed by the
20 Croatian community of Herzeg-Bosna?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Rajic, that these
23 regulations concerning work duty were applied also by
24 institutions which prevailed under the rule of the
25 majority Muslim population, concretely, were they
1 applied by the BH-Army?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So is it true to say that the BH-Army applied
4 the same regulations that we were speaking of today?
5 A. That is absolutely correct.
6 Q. How can you know that?
7 A. I knew that new regulations were not passed
8 because at the beginning of June I was in Travnik when
9 we Croats were expelled from Travnik. And the
10 conflict, the conflict went on for eight months after
11 that until the Washington accords were signed. And
12 there were cases that a Croat would be captured on the
13 frontline who was fortifying the frontline on the other
14 side, who was involved in work duty there.
15 So, after the Washington accords were signed,
16 and that was in early spring of 1994, I personally
17 encountered quite a few Croats who remained in Travnik,
18 for instance, and who said where, in which area, they
19 fortified certain parts of the frontline, where they
20 dug tunnels, et cetera. So this is what I came to know
21 through personal contacts with people who were on the
22 territory controlled by the BH-Army. And they were on
23 the work units on that side.
24 Q. So these same regulations were applied?
25 A. Yes, these same regulations were applied. I
1 was also in touch with people who worked in the
2 department of defence. I was their boss before the war
3 and we maintained this human relationship, so when I
4 talked to these people, I know that -- I realised that
5 no changes were made. And that the regulations of the
6 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were taken
7 over by Bosnia-Herzegovina.
8 Q. Thank you. Tell us, Mr. Rajic, although you
9 are not involved in such work today, do you know
10 whether, since then, since the hostilities stopped in
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and since the Washington accords
12 were signed, were new regulations passed which would
13 regulate in a different way work duty?
14 A. I am not familiar with that, but I don't see
15 how it could be regulated in a different way, but I am
16 not involved in these matters any more.
17 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, no further
18 questions from the Defence, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Do you have the Exhibit
20 136 there?
21 A. I do not see this number. I just see that I
22 have a paper here, but I don't know what number it is.
23 136 it says here.
24 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: There are some names
25 there. Mr. Pervan, the president; Mr. Krizanac, deputy
1 president. Were those people civilian or soldiers?
2 A. These members of the government were all
4 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: The HVO municipality
5 Travnik was a military or a civilian office?
6 A. The HVO of the Municipality of Travnik was a
7 civilian organisation; whereas the municipal staff of
8 the HVO of Travnik was a military organisation and
9 later on it turned into the brigade of Travnik.
10 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Thank you, no more
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Rajic, there a few
13 questions I would like to put to you. Earlier you said
14 that if an individual refused to accomplish his or her
15 work duty, he could be condemned to a number of
16 sanctions. He could, among other things, be
17 imprisoned. Have I understood you rightly?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: An as far as the setting up
20 of these work units are concerned, did you also use
21 prisoners to accomplish certain tasks?
22 A. No, because in this area where I was, there
23 wasn't an organised prison or any detention centre.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But according to the laws
25 governing this issue, the people responsible for the
1 organisation of work units could use prisoners who had
2 been sentenced to a jail sentence for having disobeyed
3 the ordering them to integrate these work units; isn't
4 that right?
5 A. I don't know about that. I mean, I didn't
6 understand your question very well either.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I'll try again. The people
8 responsible for the organisation of these civilian work
9 units could use the prisoners who had been sentenced to
10 a jail sentence for having disobeyed certain orders,
11 couldn't they?
12 A. I don't know that prisoners were used for
13 such purposes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But you said that in your
15 area of responsibility, there were no prisons and that,
16 therefore, you did not know if prisoners could be used
17 within those work units. But I am speaking from a
18 legal point of view, was this possible?
19 A. Well, I think that prisoners were not used
20 for such work. I mean convicted prisoners.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: That's your personal
22 opinion, isn't it? Or, are you giving us an opinion as
23 a legal expert, as a person who can interpret the law?
24 A. I am interpreting the law, rather.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much. There
1 is another question I would like to ask. I think that
2 earlier on you established a parallel between the
3 military command structure, which could be found on the
4 frontlines and the persons responsible for these work
5 units, the people who were heading these work units and
6 who were placed under the orders of these military
7 commanders. I think you mentioned something like that
8 earlier on; am I right?
9 So if a commander who was on the frontline
10 asked you to send him a number of workers, you or the
11 police would manage to gather these people and their
12 boss in a way and this work unit was placed under the
13 orders of the military commander on the frontline; am I
14 right? Very well then. So this is the general
16 And my question is the following: What was
17 the role of a prison commander or of a prison warden as
18 far as this whole organisation of work duty is
20 A. I don't know what the role of a prison warden
21 is. I did not encounter that in my work.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But I think that from a
23 historical or factual point of view, there were prison
24 wardens, there were prison commanders, wasn't there?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And this commander, or this
2 warden, could have civilian commanders or military
3 commanders, couldn't he? Have you understood my
4 question? Is there a problem with the interpretation?
5 Am I unclear in some way?
6 A. I understood your question, but there was a
7 brief interruption, I didn't hear your question in its
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I shall repeat it then.
10 From a historical point of view, from a factual point
11 of view, we know that there have been civilian prison
12 warden, civilian wardens, isn't that a fact?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: According to the law, so
15 from a legal point of view, what was the function of a
16 civilian warden of a prison within this general
17 organisation of civilian work duty?
18 A. I am not aware of this in detail. I did not
19 have an opportunity to acquaint myself with the
20 regulations concerning military prisons. But, since
21 you're putting this question to me, I think that a
22 civilian person can also command a prison, but only by
23 way of work duty because that is one of the
24 institutions which can have people who are on work duty
25 working in it.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Maybe I am not clear
2 enough. I am not asking you what the duties of a
3 prison warden were. My question is the following:
4 Within this framework of civilian work duty, and I
5 think you're well informed about this because you have
6 worked in this particular framework, you, yourself,
7 have organised civilian work units, so within this
8 general framework of organisation of civilian work
9 duty, what could be the duties of a civilian prison
10 warden? That is my question.
11 A. I don't know. I don't know whether such a
12 thing was ever envisioned.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, then, thank you
14 very much. The Trial Chamber has no further questions
15 to put to you. Your testimony before this
16 international Tribunal is over.
17 Mr. Neimann, would you like to add
19 MR. NIEMANN: Before the witness is
20 discharged, I think I should tender Exhibit 136 that he
21 referred to in the course of his evidence. Sorry to
22 interrupt, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No problem, Mr. Neimann.
24 Mr. Mikulicic, any objection?
25 MR. MIKULICIC: The Defence has no
1 objections, Your Honour.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, the two
3 previous documents that were shown to the witness by
4 the Defence bear the numbers D28 and D28a, and the
5 registry will ensure that a translation of these is
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much,
8 Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Rajic, thank you again for coming before
10 this international tribunal. I wish you a safe journey
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 ( The witness leaves).
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We will all meet again
15 tomorrow morning. Thank you very much.
16 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 1.15
17 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
18 the 26th day of August, 1998 at 9.00