Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1175

1 Monday, 14 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-02-60-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Since we have the

10 Plenary Session on Thursday, it is our intention to finish the two

11 witnesses in three days. If we cannot make it, we have to find some time

12 on Friday.

13 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Would you please stand up and take the solemn

16 declaration, please.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

22 Well, Mr. McCloskey, are you ready?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.

25 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:

Page 1176

1 Q. First if I could hand this to the usher, and Mr. Witness, if you

2 could take a look at that name and just firm for confirm for us if that is

3 in fact you, without saying your name.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us, are you Muslim by faith?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what opstina were you born in?

8 A. Srebrenica.

9 Q. What year?

10 A. The 18th of October, 1937.

11 Q. And did you live most of your life in Srebrenica?

12 A. Yes, I did. I was born there. That's where I lived. Both my

13 father and my grandfather were born there and lived there. And

14 occasionally I went out of there to work, but I never went abroad

15 anywhere.

16 Q. What did you do for a living?

17 A. I worked on my land as a farmer. I had my gardens. I had

18 cattle. Or I was also earning money as a bricklayer.

19 Q. And were you living in Srebrenica in July 1995?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what did you and your family do on 11 July 1995?

22 A. On the 11th of July, that's when there was shelling in Srebrenica,

23 and we gathered our things together in a bag and we just went in the

24 direction of Potocari, towards UNPROFOR, together with the rest of the

25 people, as we were fleeing.

Page 1177

1 JUDGE LIU: Could I interrupt, Mr. McCloskey? Would you please

2 inform us about this witness's pseudonym, just for the sake of the record.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. It's P105.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.


6 Q. And why did you want your family and yourself to flee your home in

7 Srebrenica to go to Potocari?

8 A. Because we tried to save our lives. We wanted to set off towards

9 Tuzla to get to the free territory. Apart from that, we didn't think

10 that -- it didn't happen as we thought it would. We got to Potocari.

11 There was a mass of people there, well over 25, 30.000 people. What do I

12 know? There were four factories of people. Not all the people could get

13 into factory halls. People were lying in the streets. It was completely

14 packed with people. Everyone was fleeing to save their lives.

15 Q. And what family members went with you to Potocari?

16 A. My daughter, my wife, four grandchildren, and my daughter-in-law,

17 with those children.

18 Q. These grandchildren, were they young, from about ages 1 through

19 maybe 10?

20 A. Something like that. From about a year, year and a half, up to

21 10, yes. Four of them.

22 Q. And did you have two adult sons at that time?

23 A. Yes. I had two sons, and they set off. One of them went towards

24 the hospital to get the wounded out and to load them onto a lorry to see

25 them off to Bratunac, and when they took the wounded out, put them onto

Page 1178

1 that lorry, he then set off towards the woods. Both of them set off

2 towards the woods, together with the army. There were soldiers, as well

3 as civilians, and they set off together. But they couldn't get through,

4 so somewhere along that road they were stopped, captured, killed. I

5 buried one son on Friday in Potocari, and the other was not found.

6 Q. About what time did your family arrive in Potocari on the 11th?

7 A. We arrived sometime about 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon.

8 Q. And where did you spend the night that first night on the 11th in

9 Potocari?

10 A. Well, I spent the night outside, because the factory halls were

11 full. There were five or six factories there. But they were all full of

12 people. So I was in the street, and there were many other people in the

13 street.

14 Q. Did you --

15 A. And on the roads.

16 Q. Did your family have any food and water with you?

17 A. We brought water from there. There were some pumps. There was a

18 little bit of food, just a little bit of food, and that's how we spent the

19 night.

20 Q. On the morning of the 12th, can you tell us what you recall

21 happening on the 12th of July.

22 A. On the 12th of July, that's when a man came with a kind of trumpet

23 and he spoke on a microphone, said what his name was, that nobody should

24 be afraid, that the Serb army would come there, that there would be

25 negotiations, that they would be walking among the people, just to see for

Page 1179

1 a while if no one was armed with guns or pistols or knives. And that day,

2 soldiers arrived. They started walking among the people. They walked

3 through the people on that day. Mladic also came. And there was a small

4 lorry that came and they brought the bread and they threw the bread loaves

5 onto the people. And the people were catching the bread loaves. And I

6 thought that was good. And as they were throwing the bread, I managed to

7 get one loaf. And as this was being done, they were filming it to show

8 the world how humane and good they were. But when they were committing

9 the genocide, then they weren't filming at all.

10 Q. Was this enough bread for these thousands of people?

11 A. It wasn't enough. It was just brought, I think, so that it can be

12 filmed and shown.

13 Q. Where did you stay most of the day on the 12th of July?

14 A. Well, I spent -- outside again, and I saw about eight or nine

15 dogs. They were Alsatians, large dogs, with soldiers. They were walking

16 among the people, the people that were there that day. And that night,

17 when that night fell, then horrible things started to happen. There was a

18 scream of a woman. There would be a scream and then everybody would jump

19 up if they heard that. And after a while, you would hear people

20 screaming, crying for help. And occasionally would hear a shot or not.

21 Then there would be a noise and then the noise would die down. So what

22 they did, what they killed people with, we don't know.

23 Occasionally we heard gunshots, occasionally we didn't. That was

24 horrible. In the night I saw two soldiers. When they started going among

25 the people, one of his arms was bleeding, about here, and he came among

Page 1180

1 the women and said: Have you got any water to wash my arm? One woman

2 asked: What happened to you? And he said: I got knocked. So that's

3 how -- and then he went off. That woman had no water. That was happening

4 all night. So of course we couldn't sleep enough. Everybody was upset.

5 There was noise. We could hear what was going on. We were in fear. And

6 that night, we spent it in this way.

7 And many of them were brought out and they died in the night.

8 Q. Did you actually see anyone abused in any way or did you just hear

9 it?

10 A. I heard that. I heard screams, screams of the people outside.

11 And the shots. I heard that. I didn't see it with my own eyes, but I

12 heard it with my own ears. And I heard it said by other people, but I

13 didn't see it with my own eyes.

14 Q. Now, on the 13th of July, in the morning, can you tell us what you

15 and your family did, the next day.

16 A. The next morning when I got up, we thought we just want to get

17 onto the buses so that we wouldn't be there, but there were so many

18 people. There were so many people, I couldn't get through. From the

19 morning to about 1.00 to 2.00 in the afternoon, I somehow managed to get

20 to the bus. And when I got down there, there was a barricade set up by

21 the Serb army. They were letting about 150 people, as much as they could,

22 go on to the onto buses. I then went past this barricade. About 15

23 metres away, there was a second barricade. This is where they were

24 separating men from the women and children.

25 Q. Who was with you when you made it to this second barricade?

Page 1181

1 A. Four grandchildren and my daughter-in-law. My wife had fainted,

2 and she was with my daughter, with UNPROFOR, trying to get some medical

3 assistance. And then I was separated, and the children went by themselves

4 to the bus, with the daughter-in-law. I was carrying the water in a

5 cannister for me and for the children, but since I was separated, I just

6 gave my grandson the cannister, and I had to return. I was taken to a

7 house where there were more men who had been separated. And then again

8 more men came, and when that house got completely full, then two buses

9 came.

10 Q. Let me ask you: Can you describe the person or persons that

11 separated you at this barricade, what they were wearing, what they looked

12 like.

13 A. Well, I can describe that they were wearing multicoloured

14 uniforms, Serb uniforms. They were multicoloured.

15 Q. Did you see any other men separated from their families at this

16 time?

17 A. Yes, because in the house where I had been separated to, then they

18 separated more men and more men came to that house, and that's how the

19 house got full. There was even an upstairs and a basement. We were then

20 told, and the women, see, we are just -- we just want to ask you some

21 questions and then you'll be released. They were saying one thing, but

22 they were doing another.

23 Q. While you were in this house, did any Serb soldier take your name?

24 A. I only saw one soldier who came to the door and said: Has anybody

25 got Deutschmarks? And one of them said: I have a hundred Deutschmarks.

Page 1182

1 And then he said: Quickly, give me, give me that, before another one

2 comes. So that man came -- gave him 100 Deutschmarks and the soldier

3 left. But there was no mistreatment in that house. I didn't see any.

4 Q. While you were in that house, did anyone interview you or take

5 your name?

6 A. Nobody asked me my name.

7 Q. And how long were you in that house until the vehicles came and

8 took you away from there?

9 A. Well, perhaps about half an hour, maybe an hour. I don't know.

10 Half an hour, perhaps. And then two buses came and then we got onto the

11 buses, sat down, and we were off to Bratunac.

12 Q. Were there any soldiers on your bus?

13 A. There were always soldiers, perhaps one, sometimes two, escorting

14 the camp prisoners, so that nobody would protest. There was always one or

15 two Serb soldiers. We got to Bratunac, and there we got to the school,

16 Vuk Karadzic. That is the name of the school. And we got to the school,

17 we all had to leave our bags, if we had any, and take the food with us.

18 But we had to leave the bags outside. That's what was ordered and that's

19 what we did. So we went in there. We sat down. It was very dusty. That

20 school had been half destroyed. It was old, and that's where we sat down,

21 and a large group came. And then we had to move to upstairs. That's

22 where we spent the night. And then that's when mistreatment, torture,

23 started. There was a --

24 Q. Before we get to that, the night, let me ask you a couple of other

25 questions. About --

Page 1183

1 A. Very well.

2 Q. About what time of day did you arrive at this school in Bratunac?

3 A. Well, perhaps we arrived in the afternoon, about 2.00 or 3.00 in

4 the afternoon.

5 Q. You've described the school as old. Was it known as "the old

6 school"?

7 A. No, but what I mean is it was dilapidated. That's why I said

8 "old." But its name was Vuk Karadzic.

9 Q. Yesterday in my office, did you have a chance to look at a map of

10 Bratunac and mark a school on that map?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I've got that map here. It's P57. If we could

13 place it on the ELMO, and I'd just ask the witness to see if he recognises

14 this map.

15 Q. Okay. I don't see the -- is the ELMO working? There we go.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Well, can you just look at this map yourself, then? It's next to

18 you. Okay. I see it now. If you could look -- sir, look at the map

19 that's next to you. Don't look at your screen.

20 A. Next to me? What do you mean?

21 Q. If you could take a look at the actual map, and could you point to

22 the --

23 A. Here it is. Here it is. Ljubovija, Sase. These are the roads

24 leading to it. Here it is to Sase. This if from Potocari, and here,

25 towards this crossroads here in this direction, there's the school, Vuk

Page 1184

1 Karadzic, where we were, this one here. Now, I'm not certain 100 per

2 cent --

3 Q. -- On the ELMO. Okay. Thank you. Okay. The school you're

4 pointing to with the pointer, could you do that again.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. All right. And you've actually circled that school on that map,

7 haven't you?

8 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

9 Q. And those are your initials right next to the school?

10 A. Yes, that's right. That's right.

11 Q. Okay. And you were telling us about how sure you were about

12 this. Can you tell us that? And we don't need the map any more,

13 Mr. Witness. How sure are you that that was the place where you were --

14 you stayed in Bratunac?

15 A. I'm 90 per cent sure, since there were two other buildings, large

16 buildings, there. So I'm 90 per cent sure that that's the one, the one

17 that I indicated. I'm 90 per cent sure.

18 Q. How many nights did you stay in Bratunac?

19 A. I spent two nights there.

20 Q. And where did you spend those two nights?

21 A. We spent those nights in the school, and when we arrived at the

22 school, they immediately arrived and started maltreating us, and we saw

23 that there was no goodness. We realised there was no goodness. And then

24 a policeman arrived in a blue uniform. He had a white belt, a pistol, a

25 holster, and he started beating someone right in front of us. He beat him

Page 1185

1 with an automatic rifle. He beat him around the head and the shoulders.

2 He then bowed his head, and the policeman took the rifle in order to put

3 his head back into position, and made a gesture like this.

4 He then got hold of some sort of rubber implement. He took that

5 implement and hit him twice, and then he took the automatic rifle, and

6 then with both his hands, from above, hit him in the head, and the man was

7 covered in blood. The man's face was covered in blood. And his shirt was

8 covered in blood too. And then the policeman, who got angry, beat him.

9 He then left. But this man was covered in blood. He remained sitting

10 there. Then he came to where our group was in the room and sat there for

11 about half an hour among us, after having been beaten with this rubber

12 whip, and then this man appeared at the door again and called to him. He

13 didn't want to get up. He knew that the situation was dangerous. This

14 person, this policeman, shouted at him. He had to go out. Then shouts,

15 screams could be heard. I can describe everything to you, but I can't

16 describe the sounds that we heard. He made various sounds as he was

17 screaming and he never returned again.

18 And this happened on several occasions. They took people out, day

19 and night.

20 Q. Now, can you describe what the people that took people out were

21 wearing, about how many different people were involved in taking people

22 out, and what were they wearing?

23 A. Well, there were soldiers in camouflage uniforms, Serbian soldiers

24 in camouflage uniforms, and there were also men in blue uniforms, police

25 uniforms. So they took people out and day and night you could hear people

Page 1186

1 groaning outside. And if I had a look out of the window, there would be a

2 burst of fire and you would have to crouch down. You wouldn't be able to

3 look out of the window.

4 Q. So were you ever able to see anything outside during those two

5 days you were there?

6 A. No, I didn't see the road, not even the road, because I wasn't

7 able to approach the window. I preferred to remain in peace rather than

8 to try and look out. But even if I could have looked out of the window,

9 it was -- it would have been difficult for me to do so because of the fear

10 I felt and the sadness I felt.

11 Q. How many people were in this upstairs room that you were taken to?

12 A. Well, perhaps about 200 people, because that room was a big room.

13 But they were all crammed into that room. That's as far as that room is

14 concerned. But I don't know how many people there were in other rooms,

15 because we weren't allowed to move around. Lives were at stake. And then

16 we saw that things did not bode well for us.

17 Q. Could you tell if there were other people in other rooms in this

18 school?

19 A. Well, there were -- I know that because I heard their voices. I

20 heard them walking around and so on. Perhaps someone would go to the

21 toilet and then you would hear them going to the toilet or you would hear

22 the soldiers approaching the door or approaching our door and singling out

23 the persons they wanted to single out and taking them away. Quite a few

24 people died in Bratunac, were killed in Bratunac, at the beginning of the

25 war, when Arkan's men approached. Lots of people from Bratunac were

Page 1187

1 arrested and detained at the playground. There were many neighbours of

2 mine who were there, who had been captured. And those that had been

3 captured, out of those that had been captured, a group was exchanged, went

4 to Sarajevo, Tuzla, I don't know where.

5 Q. All right. Let's try to stay with 1995, if we can, Mr. Witness.

6 A. Very well.

7 Q. For the roughly two nights that you spent at that school, can you

8 give any -- an estimate of how many men were taken out that didn't come

9 back, how many Muslim men were taken out and didn't come back?

10 A. It's difficult for me to say. All I know is that people were

11 taken out, and I know that there was a lot of groaning and screaming

12 outside, day and night, non-stop. They must have been doing this in

13 shifts. It could not have been just one shift responsible for this, since

14 this happened day and night. You could hear this constantly. They were

15 taking them out, one person at a time or two at a time. I saw them being

16 taken out. I couldn't look out of the window because I was afraid, and

17 there was shooting there.

18 Q. Did you notice a shift change, different soldiers or policemen

19 replacing others that were guarding you?

20 A. I didn't, because I didn't know them. For a while, a person would

21 be present and for a while he would be absent. I didn't know those

22 soldiers, those policemen. Some would appear, others would appear and

23 visit and torture people. I don't know how they acted. But given all the

24 screaming and groaning, genocide was being committed.

25 Q. After the second night and the next -- the day after the second

Page 1188

1 night, the day you left, can you describe that?

2 A. Yes, I can describe it. Buses would arrive, going towards Tuzla.

3 There were some buses. We got out, sat in them, and in the buses they

4 told us that we weren't allowed to look to the left or right. We were

5 just told to remain sitting and to keep our heads down, and that's how we

6 travelled. There were seven buses. That's something that a friend of

7 mine told me. He counted them. When we got to Konjevic Polje, they

8 didn't head towards Vlasenica. They headed towards Zvornik.

9 Q. Okay. Let me stop you for a moment. During your two days in the

10 school in Bratunac, were you given any food by your captors?

11 A. We weren't given anything, only water. But as far as food is

12 concerned, we would receive a slice of bread when we sat down in the

13 buses. They gave us this bread in the buses, and some sort of a biscuit

14 or juice. I wasn't even able to eat this. I put it in my mouth and

15 chewed it for about 15 minutes, but it was impossible to eat it. So we

16 didn't have much food and there wasn't enough water. That's when we were

17 given a little food and we weren't given food after that.

18 Q. How thirsty --

19 A. After the second or third day.

20 Q. How thirsty were you in that school in Bratunac? Did they give

21 you enough water?

22 A. There wasn't enough water. There was water, but not enough. For

23 however much they would bring, we drank it all. I never felt that

24 thirsty. However much you would drink, you would sweat it all out,

25 because we were afraid or hungry. I don't know why it was like this, but

Page 1189

1 we were very thirsty.

2 Q. Did they treat anyone, give any medical aid to anyone during those

3 two days you spent in that school in Bratunac?

4 A. No, no one. How they treat anyone, they didn't care whether

5 people would live or die, why would they treat anyone, even if there were

6 sick people? That's how it was.

7 Q. Now, you've described you're on a bus and you're heading towards

8 Zvornik. Were there any soldiers or police on your bus?

9 A. Yes. I know there were sometimes two soldiers in each bus,

10 sometimes one soldier in each bus. They were escorting these buses to

11 prevent people from fleeing. But usually there were two soldiers in each

12 bus. When we got into the buses and arrived in Konjevic Polje, we headed

13 towards Zvornik, not towards Tuzla. We arrived in Zvornik, and when we

14 arrived there, we crossed a bridge over the Drina, got into Serbia, and

15 then arrived as far as Loznica. And then returned to Bosnia, crossed a

16 bridge again, and towards Pilica.

17 When we arrived in Pilica, I don't know whether it was near

18 Pilica, the buses stopped there and remained there for a while. Perhaps

19 they were waiting for night to fall. There was a big building to the

20 right. Perhaps they wanted a camp in that school and then realised that

21 it wasn't possible because it was full. I don't know. But we waited

22 there for an hour, an hour and a half, and then they shouted out to us in

23 the bus and they said: There's someone lying down. Get him up. Make him

24 stand up. Two people tried to get him up and then they said: He's dead.

25 He's died. They said: Take him out by the road. Which is what they

Page 1190

1 did. And then one of the persons who had taken him out asked the Serbian

2 soldier, he said: Can I relieve myself outside? He went out, and then

3 there were two bursts of fire, and someone said: Look, they've killed

4 him. He fell down. He wanted to run away. He preferred trying to run

5 away and being killed by a bullet rather than being the victim of

6 genocide. He knew he would be killed by a bullet.

7 And that's where we were, and then when night had fallen, the

8 buses left.

9 Q. Excuse me. Did you actually see that man get shot or did people

10 just tell you that?

11 A. I heard the bursts of fire, but someone else told me that they had

12 killed him. Another person saw him being killed and told me about it. I

13 was near that person. But I didn't see the victim fall. I was told that

14 he had been killed. There were two bursts of fire.

15 Q. Did you see that victim run away, though?

16 A. I saw him when he got out, and when he approached some sort of

17 bushes, but this acquaintance of mine saw him falling near a bush.

18 Q. Did you actually see this dead man on the bus that was taken and

19 just thrown off the bus?

20 A. I saw them getting him up and saying that he was dead, and I heard

21 them saying that he should be taken out. I was in the bus myself. I saw

22 that person. I saw them taking him out and leaving him by the road.

23 Q. Did you know his name?

24 A. No, I didn't. No one told me his name. I didn't know the person.

25 Q. Now, did you recognise you were in Pilica from your own knowledge

Page 1191

1 or did someone tell you that that was Pilica?

2 A. I didn't know it was Pilica at the time. I had never been there

3 in peacetime either. But later on I asked someone, who had a look at a

4 map and told me that it was Pilica. Later on I asked other people too,

5 and they also told me it was Pilica. Several people confirmed this. It's

6 near Bijeljina. That's where Pilica is. From Zvornik towards Bijeljina.

7 Q. Where did you -- the bus go after the incidents you've described

8 in Pilica?

9 A. The buses left, perhaps an hour and a half later. It was dark.

10 We travelled for a while and then turned left. There was a school that

11 they took us to. They took us up to the floor. We were crammed into a

12 room on that floor, and again they started coming, taking people out,

13 beating people, and you would hear groaning again, screaming, just like in

14 Bratunac, day and night. They entered the room several times, the room I

15 was in, and they took people out. And I don't know how many people there

16 were in the other rooms, but my room, the room I was in, was crammed, full

17 of people. They took people out. You could hear constant groaning, day

18 and night. And we spent one night in this way, and then the second night

19 they would bring a little water in. There was no bread, no food. We were

20 hungry. But we had water to drink. It was very hot.

21 Q. Are you sure you spent two nights in Pilica, at the Pilica

22 school -- excuse me - at this school that you've described?

23 A. One night or two nights, but as far as I know, we spent two nights

24 there.

25 One person said: Is there anything for us to eat? And the

Page 1192

1 soldier said: We haven't got anything. We haven't got anything for

2 ourselves either. And maybe half an hour later, he brought in a piece of

3 bread, broke it up, and threw it to the people. Some people would get

4 hold of a little bit of bread, eat it, but there was not much. It was a

5 form of maltreatment, and that's how it was. And on the last day there

6 were seven or eight men I knew in that room, but I wasn't able to enter

7 the other rooms.

8 If you wanted to go to the toilet, you would have to ask a

9 soldier, and sometimes he would let you, sometimes he wouldn't. Sometimes

10 he would say you have to wait. You would then have to wait for half an

11 hour. Then the soldiers would arrive and line up in the corridor, and

12 then there would be a column of us heading towards the toilet. Some would

13 be beaten with a butt of a rifle while going to the toilet. But you had

14 to go.

15 That's how it was.

16 Q. Were you given any water while you were at that school?

17 A. Yes. We were given some water, but not enough, because too much

18 water was drunk. Too much water was drunk. It was very hot, and people

19 were afraid. It wasn't enough. There were many people who turned black,

20 and even if you knew these people, it was difficult to recognise them;

21 they had changed so much. Their bodies would be green. If we didn't have

22 the little water that we did have, many people would have died of thirst

23 and of fear.

24 Q. Could you describe what happened the day you left that school.

25 A. Children were lined up. They said: How many boys are there, from

Page 1193

1 14 to 15 or 16 years of age? And about 12 came forward and lined up, and

2 they said: Avdic needs such boys. You'll go and see Avdic. The children

3 smiled a bit. You know, they seemed to be happy. They took them to the

4 other rooms. They took them out of these rooms, the other rooms. I don't

5 know how many children there were in the other rooms, but they took these

6 children out of my room. I don't know what happened. I don't know what

7 they did to them. I don't know whether they went to Avdic. I don't know

8 whether they were killed or whether they were taken to camps. I know

9 nothing about this. I didn't see where they were taken.

10 And later they said: Whoever has money can go to Sarajevo. The

11 ticket to Sarajevo is 20 German marks. Some people said that they had the

12 money. One person said he had a hundred marks. He said: I can pay for

13 myself and for four relatives, or friends of mine. He said he could pay

14 for five people. And they left in groups like this. Perhaps there was a

15 bus or two buses. They paid and left. The buses returned quickly. And

16 then we were told even if people don't have money, they can leave.

17 There were two canvases. They said: Tear this up. And they gave

18 two of us this canvas and said: Tear it up and tie the hands behind their

19 backs. They tied them up and then people left in groups. But the buses

20 left rapidly and then returned. They said: You've got to go to Tuzla.

21 But the buses would return very quickly. If I'm going to Tuzla, going to

22 be free, why would they tie me up? But they were tying people up, and

23 this was suspicious, in my opinion. So I thought, it's my turn. I had my

24 hands tied up, and then as we were leaving, at the bottom of the stairs,

25 when I reached the basement, there was concrete down there. A man had

Page 1194

1 been killed there. Blood was running out of his head. He was bleeding.

2 He was lying there on the concrete. We were in a column with hands tied

3 behind our backs, heading in the direction of the buses. We reached the

4 buses. These Serbian soldiers were swearing and shouting at us. They

5 would occasionally hit someone with the butt of their rifles. I got to

6 the bus.

7 As far as I can remember, there was a company called the 7th of

8 July. We sat down there. I got to the bus. I looked in front of me,

9 towards the shade, and there were some officers there, I think. They were

10 talking to each other. They had automatic rifles. They didn't speak to

11 us. They just observed us. They observed their soldiers swearing at us,

12 hitting some of us. All they did was observe and smile to themselves, and

13 they watched us getting into the buses, and they spoke among themselves.

14 We got into the buses. They said the buses were going to Tuzla.

15 When we left in those buses, after about 2, 2 and a half kilometres, I

16 heard shooting on a hill. I heard a noise. When we arrived at the hill,

17 the buses stopped. When they stopped, the doors opened. The Serbian

18 soldiers surrounded the buses. They cursed us and they cursed Alija and

19 Haris and then death appeared in front of you.

20 As we got out, they stopped us. I remained in one half of the

21 bus. Another column headed off down a path. There were some corpses, and

22 that column headed in the direction of those corpses. They arrived at the

23 field where the corpses were. I observed from the bus. There were two

24 bursts of fire. Everyone fell down. They came again. I was in that

25 other half of the bus. They cursed us and Alija and Haris. It was the

Page 1195

1 same curse again. And they shouted. I got out. We were in a column,

2 single file. Our hands were behind our backs. We bowed our heads and we

3 proceeded like this. When a Serbian soldier was -- there was a Serbian

4 soldier in front of me and another one behind me. There were about eight

5 of us escorting us -- eight of them escorting us. They had automatic

6 rifles, and one of them told me: Give me some German marks. I said I

7 didn't have any. He kicked me in the stomach. I doubled over. I fell

8 down and I got up. The second Serbian soldier said: Don't commit

9 genocide. He said: Kill like a soldier if you want to kill.

10 So I had to get up and go along with the column. And then the

11 same man who had kicked me said: Does anyone want to cross over into

12 Serbs? And two of them, two people, said they would. But nothing came of

13 that. And as we were walking, somebody said: Give us water to drink and

14 then kill us. And nothing came of that either.

15 We arrived at where the corpses were, and then we walked through

16 those groups of corpses at the end. And then there were those corpses and

17 then there were more, and then it was quite a difficult terrain. And then

18 they told us to stand straight and to turn our backs, so we did. And then

19 they said: Lie down. But before they said "lie down," there was a burst

20 of fire, and in that speed, I fell. Nothing hit me, but I fell. Another

21 person fell on top of me. I knew him. And so I was lying down.

22 Everybody fell down immediately, and so did I, as if I had been shot

23 down. And there was a Serb soldier who shouted out after the fire had

24 stopped: Is there anyone alive? And then somebody shouted out: I'm

25 alive. And another person: I am alive, too. Kill me.

Page 1196

1 And so this soldier went over there and possibly fired just one

2 shot for each one, and that was that. I wasn't hit. And then after that,

3 more buses were emptied, about six or seven columns were brought while I

4 was lying there on the ground. And there were more and more people below

5 me, and around me. There was firing above me. I would get dust on top of

6 me, even rubble, as the shots were being fired. And after every single

7 column was shot, they would execute -- they would ask: Is there anybody

8 alive? Occasionally there would be one or two; occasionally there would

9 be nobody. And that's how they brought six or seven columns.

10 After they brought all them, killed them off, executed them, then

11 they didn't bring any more buses. After a while, they left to where they

12 had brought them from. There was a house. There was a garden. Perhaps

13 that's where they stayed. During the day I thought for a while whether I

14 could untie myself. I thought if I didn't shout out, they could just kill

15 me. I managed to get my tie off. I was lying on my front and I managed

16 to get the hand tie off my hands, and then I put them again on my back,

17 because I knew that the patrol would come, so that they would see that I

18 had my hands untied. That's why I put the hands on my back as if they

19 were tied, so they wouldn't notice me. And then a patrol came.

20 There were five of them. I was lying on my front. And I faced

21 away from where they were coming. They arrived, five of them arrived. I

22 saw them. They were walking among the dead. And then they shouted:

23 Look, there's one running away. Look, there's another one running away.

24 And then they would fire, fire, single shots, bursts of fire. They would

25 be firing towards the fields where these two had run off. And there was

Page 1197

1 one who -- some of them went off, and one of them stayed with the

2 corpses. After about a quarter of an hour, two of them returned, and the

3 one who had remained said: What happened? And then the two said: One of

4 them escaped. He hid. Which meant that one of them they killed.

5 But then they said: The other two had remained to look for him.

6 Hopefully they will find him, they said. And then they said: We

7 committed genocide just like in 1941 in Jasenovac. That's how they were

8 talking among themselves. They were there for a while. And then they

9 went off to the shade. They just went off.

10 I then looked into the sky to see where the sun was, to see how

11 much I had before dark. And I was trying to see where the woods were,

12 because I was worried about the machines coming to dig those bodies. And

13 to dig the earth to put the bodies in, and I was afraid of that. And I

14 could see that there was two more hours, two and a half, until darkness

15 fell. I could see that by the sky. And then I heard some whispering

16 nearby. Somebody said: Is there somebody alive? Let's get out.

17 And then I started to take the ties off my hands to prepare myself

18 to flee. And as I got the tie off my hands, I saw there were two of them

19 going into some bushes down in the field. There was some grass. There

20 was a hundred, 150 square metres in that area, and I thought I should go

21 that way too. So I took the ties off my hands. The other two managed to

22 get into the bushes where I thought I'd go as well. I jumped up to my

23 legs. I couldn't crouch for a long time, couldn't crawl, because I was

24 worried about a patrol coming. So I thought I would just jump. I ran

25 across corpse, dead bodies, from one dead body to another. There was no

Page 1198

1 soil. I stepped on, and the corpses were moving as I walked on them. I

2 was looking at them, and listening out for somebody shouting: Look,

3 there's one escaping. Because I was worried about that.

4 And then I got to the bush. I crouched down. Nobody shouted

5 anything out. And then I looked around me, and then I saw two more people

6 coming out into the bushes. When they got into the bushes -- so there

7 were five of us there, and there was nobody else. Everybody else was

8 dead.

9 Q. Witness, let me ask you just a couple of questions, if I could.

10 A. Very well.

11 Q. On the bus trip from the school to the execution fields, were

12 there any soldiers on your bus?

13 A. From the school, yes, there were. There were. By the school,

14 there was a group that only directed people to get to the buses. And then

15 one or two soldiers would board the buses to escort them to the execution

16 site. And there was another group that waited up there at the site, met

17 the people, and killed them. That was their organisation.

18 Q. All right. And at that killing field, did you ever have a chance

19 to view the whole field to get some kind of an estimate of how many people

20 lay dead there?

21 A. Well, as far as dead bodies are concerned, I'm certain there were

22 about a thousand and a thousand and a half. I guarantee this, because as

23 soon as I jumped to my feet, the first thing I did was to turn around and

24 look around me. And when I got off from there into the darkness, got out

25 of the bush, on the other side -- there were corpses on the other side.

Page 1199

1 But I didn't know they were there until I got there. A thousand to a

2 thousand and a half, certainly.

3 In that speed, I managed to see this. There were many corpses,

4 many dead. Many dead lay down.

5 Q. We know that over the next several days you were escaping from

6 various Serbs and you met some Muslims and other things, but I want to

7 just ask you about the day you decided to surrender. So if we could go

8 directly to that day. Can you tell us about how many days after the

9 executions you decided to surrender.

10 A. Well, I can say that it was like this: It was possibly that it

11 was on the 17th of July that the execution took place, 16th or the 17th,

12 and it was on the 26th that I surrendered. That's when the Red Cross

13 registered me. I have that very clear in my mind. 26th. So it was from

14 the 17th to the 26th that I was on the run. And then I surrendered on the

15 26th, and that's when I was registered, on that day.

16 Q. What kind of forces did you surrender to, or what kind of

17 authorities?

18 A. I surrendered when I arrived. There was a civilian, and then they

19 told me: Go to the bus. So I went there. But the police was there.

20 There were two policemen and a driver. And that's where I surrendered.

21 They drove us around, drove us around, and they came in front of a bar.

22 And they stopped the bus and they went off to the bar to get the

23 cigarettes. And I saw they were drinking beer outside the bar. And then

24 the waiter found out who else was on the bus, and I saw him going to the

25 bar. And he carried out two packs of cigarettes and a 2-litre pack of

Page 1200

1 juice, and he brought it to the bus, and the police came. And he said:

2 There's the cigarettes. There's some juice for you to drink. Freshen up

3 and cheer up.

4 I, like everyone, he said, I've been working in Germany for 22

5 years, and I'm on good terms with everyone. And he said: Are you

6 hungry? And I said: Of course I'm hungry, for a fortnight I haven't

7 seen a piece of bread. Of course I would like to eat. Because I had just

8 been eating fruit in the forest. Things were quite bitter and sour. And

9 he said: Well, come in front of the bar. Have something to eat. So he

10 gave us lunch and meat. As far as I remember, there was meat and there

11 was potatoes. So we ate well.

12 The other man couldn't each very much. He felt sick.

13 Q. Were you with another person at that time?

14 A. Yes, I was with another survivor. There were two of us. So we

15 were sitting there. We had a cup of coffee. I thanked him later. I

16 didn't dare ask about his name, because I was afraid. But this is

17 something beautiful to me. The nice words he spoke to me and what he gave

18 me. That was as if he had built me a house. It was a big thing that he

19 did for me, very kind. I can't forget that. If everyone had been like

20 this, there would have been no war. One man can be worth a thousand men,

21 and one man can destroy everyone if he's evil.

22 Q. This waiter was a Serb?

23 A. He was a Serb. He was in their area, and he was a Serb. But when

24 a man is kind, it doesn't matter whether he's a Muslim or a Serb, or

25 whatever faith he is. That's not important. It's important that he was a

Page 1201

1 good man. He was a Serb, and I respect him as a real man, and I'll never

2 forget that. Really, it's as if he gave me a whole house and not just a

3 pack of cigarettes and juice.

4 Q. One last question. If you could try to describe for us the impact

5 this crime has had on you and your family and your life.

6 A. Well, the effect. What can I tell you? It couldn't have been any

7 worse. While I had two sons, they were helping me, working on the farm,

8 and then they escaped to serve their heads. And then somebody just came

9 and killed all those innocent people. Who didn't intend to harm anything

10 or anyone. And whatever kind of genocide took place, this could only have

11 been prevented by the Serb authorities. Nobody should have been killed.

12 Nobody should have been killed. They could have prevented this and they

13 could have also ordered for people to be executed. Those in authority,

14 they could have ordered the kill and they could have saved everyone, what

15 they wanted to do, that's what they did. And today, we don't have a good

16 life and they don't have a good life either, but that's what they

17 deserve. Nobody should be angry with anyone. Everyone makes good or bad

18 things for themselves and to themselves.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, Witness, we are going to have a

21 break. Please remain where you are --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE LIU: -- for a while, and later on Madam Usher will show you

24 out of the courtroom. But at this moment, please remain where you are.

25 We'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

Page 1202

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I understand.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

4 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination? Mr. Karnavas.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: No cross-examination, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Mr. Stojanovic, any cross-examination?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No cross-examination. No

9 questions. I was told by my client that there should be no questions

10 asked of this witness, with the sincere gratitude for him coming to

11 testify today.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 Well, it seems to me that the Judges have no questions to this

14 witness. At this stage, are there any documents to tender, Mr. McCloskey?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have the one map, number

16 57, but that's it.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

18 Any objections, Mr. Karnavas?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 Mr. Stojanovic?

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

24 This piece of evidence is admitted.

25 Well -- yes, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 1203

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. I'm reminded that we

2 should have P58 as the piece of paper with his name on it, that should be

3 part of the record also.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I believe that it will become a

5 rule that whenever that piece of -- with his name on it should be

6 admitted, without any tendering procedures. That is applied to both

7 parties.

8 Thank you, Witness, for coming here to give your evidence. This

9 Trial Chamber would like to express great sympathy to you. All we wish is

10 that you have good luck in the future.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, and thank you

12 for those who assisted me in coming here to be at this trial, and thanks

13 to those who have set up this Court to find the truth and justice. And I

14 know that it is difficult for criminals when they threw 8.000 people into

15 mass graves and more than 8.000. I know that they are sorry that they

16 didn't throw me into a mass grave, but they couldn't throw me. One saved

17 me, dear Allah saved me. I know that otherwise they would have wanted to

18 erase me and everything else. And thank you, Your Honour. Thank you,

19 everyone.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. When the usher pulls down the blinds, she will

21 take you out of this courtroom. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, who is the next witness, or

25 what's his pseudonym?

Page 1204

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. This next witness has a pseudonym, and it is

2 106.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that is Mr. Waespi's witness, and so we'll

5 take a moment and make a change. And we have three -- a total of three

6 Bosnian witnesses, and if there's not much cross-examination, we should be

7 able to get them all on before the plenary break.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me? Good

11 morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13 JUDGE LIU: Would you please take the solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are we starting?


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

20 Yes, Mr. Waespi.

21 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

22 Honours. Just before --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24 MR. WAESPI: -- the witness starts, I would like to inform you

25 that the witness will be referring to two Prosecution exhibits,

Page 1205

1 Prosecution Exhibit 10/1 and 10/3. He will not be referring to a map,

2 Prosecution Exhibit 20.1, but I think it may assist Your Honours to follow

3 the testimony of the witness.

4 And again, if the witness could be shown a piece of paper.

5 Examined by Mr. Waespi:

6 Q. And Witness, do you see a name written on that piece of paper?

7 A. Yes, I can see it.

8 Q. And without reading it, is that your name?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 Good morning, Witness.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. Are you feeling okay?

14 A. Well, yes.

15 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to ask you a few preliminary

16 questions, and then we'll go into more detail about what happened in July

17 1995.

18 Let me ask you first: Were you born in 1944?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you're a Muslim by faith?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in 1995, you were a member of the Bosnian army?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, let's go to July 1995. You were working as a farmer on your

25 fields in your community, which is in the opstina of Srebrenica; is that

Page 1206

1 correct?

2 A. That's right, yes. I was working the land.

3 Q. Now, this community, is it very close to the town of Srebrenica?

4 A. Very close by, 10, 12 kilometres from the town.

5 Q. Now, Witness, do you remember the day that Srebrenica fell?

6 A. Srebrenica fell on the 11th of July, 1995. That's when I set off

7 from my home.

8 Q. What happened to your wife and other members of their family? Did

9 they join you that day?

10 A. We were told that Srebrenica, the safe area, enclave, had fallen,

11 and women and old people went to Potocari, while the army and the others

12 who felt they could get through the woods, we set off to get to Tuzla

13 through the woods. With my family, I got to the village of Babuljice, and

14 they set off towards Potocari, and I set off towards Jaglici. That's

15 where we parted on the 11th of July, about 7.00 in the evening. I arrived

16 at Jaglici about half past 9.00. That's where they said we would all meet

17 up. That's where I spent the night.

18 In the morning I set off from Jaglici, at about 20 to 1.00,

19 exactly. That was the time. I didn't have the watch but I asked a

20 colleague of mine what the time was. He told me it was 20 to 1.00. We

21 were going direction of Buljim. We crossed the line. When we found

22 ourselves beneath Buljim, there was a convoy that stopped. Somebody

23 shouted from the woods: What's happening? What are you waiting for? And

24 the column stopped. And then they went into the woods. They cursed a

25 person who said that the convoy was lost. And I asked who was this, and

Page 1207

1 somebody said this was Golic. I didn't know this person called Golic.

2 And then he set off towards the person who said the convoy was lost. And

3 I heard from the left-hand side of the hill, I heard somebody shouting:

4 What are you waiting for? And he cursed. And there was shooting that

5 started. People dispersed. Nobody was looking where they were going.

6 I went down a brook. The brook was dry. There were people lying

7 about. Whether they were dead, wounded, I don't know. I wasn't looking

8 around. I went down there, found a stream, and going downstream, and

9 there were 10 to 12 of us. We got to a neighbour, a neighbour who was

10 married to someone from Kamenica. I asked him: Where are we going?

11 Where are we? So we followed an asphalt road. They said left to this is

12 Kamenica. So we started going along the left-hand side of the road

13 alongside a wood. And we sat in that wood and darkness started to fall.

14 And we could hear some noise beneath the hill. We then went in the

15 direction of this noise. Darkness had fallen.

16 After about 500 metres, we heard shooting. There was shooting

17 from Praga. We didn't know who was shooting, where they were shooting

18 towards. We then turned back. I didn't know what would happen. I then

19 went into a kind of a valley. I could only be hit from the sky, because

20 nobody could see me. And there was nobody around. I was trying to call

21 around. Nobody was answering. There would be another machine-gun burst,

22 and there would be people shouting, saying that wounded should be carried

23 out.

24 I started to go in the direction of the voice saying that wounded

25 should be taken care of. Perhaps I went a hundred, 150 metres. I thought

Page 1208

1 I would be killed in the wood. I said: Don't shoot. They asked me who I

2 was. I said who I was. I said: Who are you? They said, I'm Suad. So I

3 said, wait for me. I found the man. He said, Are you Suad. I said, I

4 am. There was a man who was lying down, so I sat next to him. He said,

5 do you have anything in your backpack. I said I did. He said, I didn't

6 eat anything for two days. So I said if you haven't eaten, here it is,

7 eat. So I gave him some food. And then we got up from there.

8 There were so many dead around us, you could just step on the

9 dead. I recognised one of them as being my neighbours. And I said to

10 this Suad: Give me a lighter or a match, if you have, so I can recognise

11 this person. So he did. So then I lost this man Suad. I never found him

12 again. Wounded were being taken to a hill. There would be somebody

13 shouting from the wood.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, please allow the Prosecutor to ask you

15 questions.

16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

17 Q. Witness, I would like just to ask you a couple of more questions

18 about what you just told the Judges. Now you said that you left Jaglici

19 on the 12th of July, just shortly before 1.00, I think you said.

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. -- 1.00. Now, how many people --

22 A. 20 to 1.00.

23 Q. How many people were around you in Jaglici?

24 A. Well, no one counted. No one even thought of counting. But there

25 must have been between 18 and 20,000. Towards the end, I left. Jaglici

Page 1209

1 was somewhere behind me.

2 Q. Were there people who had arms in that column?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you armed?

5 A. No. I had my hunting rifle, which I gave to a relative of mine,

6 in Jaglici. I left without my rifle. I never saw my rifle or my in-law

7 after that.

8 Q. Can you tell us --

9 A. Or my son-in-law after that.

10 Q. Can you tell us what you were wearing that day.

11 A. I was wearing black trousers. I had a white sweater on and a

12 shirt.

13 Q. So those were civilian clothes?

14 A. Civilian clothes, yes.

15 Q. How about the other people who were around you? What were they

16 wearing? Also civilian clothes?

17 A. Most of them were wearing civilian clothes, because the soldiers

18 were up front. I didn't see anyone from the command or from the

19 municipality when I arrived in Jaglici.

20 Q. Now, you described to us that on that day you were walking through

21 the woods, 12th of July, there were two clashes, two times you described

22 shooting. Can you tell the Judges who were shooting.

23 A. We passed through their line where the first ambush was. That was

24 where they held the lines. They had trenches, communicating trenches. No

25 one opened fire on us. When we passed below Budini [phoen], we came

Page 1210

1 across a road where this column had stopped and this is where the first

2 ambush was. The Serbian aggressors must have opened fire. They opened

3 fire from the hill. We were between the hills, in the woods.

4 Q. Now, you said that you were carrying wounded up on the hill. Do

5 you remember that?

6 A. Yes, I do. That was the second ambush.

7 Q. What did you do on the next day, on the 13th of July? Where were

8 you then, in the morning?

9 A. I was above Kamenica, on a hill. Kamenica Brdo. I didn't know

10 that area at all. I only heard them mention the name Kamenica. On the

11 13th of July, it was a Thursday, we were there. There were quite a few

12 people there, and that is where we were surrounded and captured. They

13 told us to take our wounded with us. I was carrying Mujo Turkovic. His

14 leg was broken above the knee. His brother had been wounded in the

15 shoulder, and he asked me not to leave him behind, as we were descending.

16 We crossed a river. He said: Put that wounded down.

17 Q. Can you wait a second.

18 A. There were two of them.

19 Q. Witness, you just said that you surrendered. To whom did you

20 surrender, and how did that occur?

21 A. We surrendered to the Serbian aggressors when they surrounded us.

22 They took -- they had towels or T-shirts attached to sticks and said:

23 Don't shoot, we're surrendering. We descended down a field. It was a big

24 field. I descended for 12 or 13 metres. I didn't want to be shot. Then

25 there was crossfire from the other side. They were raising these sticks

Page 1211

1 with the T-shirts attached to them and they shouted: Don't shoot. We're

2 surrendering. And --

3 Q. Witness, you said they had white towels or white T-shirts. Who

4 were they?

5 A. These people of ours who were raising these sticks to which white

6 towels and T-shirts had been attached, they were shouting: Don't shoot.

7 We're surrendering.

8 Q. Now, why did you surrender, you and your people who were around

9 you?

10 A. Well, there was no other option for us. I wanted to flee again.

11 There was an imam. I can say his name. He said: Don't be crazy. Don't

12 try to run away. Can you see all these people here? I've remained

13 there. I didn't try to run away. They forced us down towards the asphalt

14 road. There were two soldiers of theirs down there. We left the

15 wounded. They searched us to see whether we had weapons, grenade, a

16 knife, and they wanted money. I had a hundred marks here. I took them

17 out. I said I didn't have any more money. I put my hands behind my neck,

18 crossed the road, went to a field. We were all sitting in rows.

19 Q. Can I stop you just for a moment, Witness? You said that two

20 people searched you. Who were these people? Can you describe them to the

21 Judges, please.

22 A. That happened later on when we had all gathered in the field.

23 They brought a tanker and they sprayed us with water. It was very hot.

24 The day was very hot. And then on the right-hand side, there was a tank,

25 and there was an anti-aircraft machine-gun on the tank. And the person on

Page 1212

1 the tank directed this gun at us twice. There was someone in civilian

2 clothes in front of us. He said: Stop fooling around. He didn't shoot.

3 I can't claim that he did.

4 Q. Just one moment, Witness.

5 A. He was just provoking us.

6 Q. You mentioned an asphalt road. Which asphalt road are you talking

7 about? Can you tell us what villages --

8 A. The one that connected Konjevic Polje, Bratunac, and Srebrenica.

9 Q. And in what area were you surrendering? Do you remember a village

10 in that area?

11 A. Kamenica. Kamenica Brdo. That is where we surrendered. They

12 forced us down towards the asphalt road. I heard from Ramiz Muskic that

13 he knew this Bogic. He said we had been in Lolici, where we had been

14 sitting.

15 Q. Now, you said you were taken to a place, a field. Can you

16 describe to us a little bit more in detail. I think you said that you

17 have seen a tank there, and you described a commander. And can you tell

18 us what this commander was wearing.

19 A. The person who ordered the man to raise the anti-aircraft

20 machine-gun in the air, not to shoot at us, he had a uniform. He was

21 wearing a uniform. I didn't know him. And as we were sitting there, they

22 then issued an order. I heard Madzarevic say -- that was the surname,

23 Madzarevic, from Visnjica. One had -- one of them searched us. I left

24 600 marks and two necklaces that belonged to my daughter and ten ducats.

25 So they took this away from me. One of them asked to have 50 marks,

Page 1213

1 German marks, for cigarettes. They didn't want to leave minimum the marks

2 for cigarettes. He said: You'll have cigarettes enough. And we remained

3 sitting there in that field. They called this policeman who in peacetime

4 worked in Vlasenica, and they said: There's Amir, the policeman.

5 Q. Just one --

6 A. One of them called out to him.

7 Q. Witness, before we get to the policeman, you mentioned a moment

8 ago Madzarevic from Vlasenica. Was he one of the persons who were

9 guarding you, who was guarding you?

10 A. He was a soldier. There were several soldiers around us. But he

11 had a yellow ponytail and they said that we should be searched. And they

12 searched us in various orders. Some of them found money, gold, a watch.

13 Q. Now, Witness, apart from the ponytail, how did he look like? What

14 was the wearing? And why do you know that it was Madzarevic?

15 A. They called him by his surname, Madzarevic. They just said

16 "Madzarevic searched him." And he had a yellow ponytail. I knew him by

17 sight. But I don't know his first name. The man with the yellow ponytail

18 was the only one I knew.

19 Q. So you recognised two people, the man with the ponytail and

20 Madzarevic?

21 A. I didn't recognise Madzarevic, but I did recognise the surname. I

22 knew that in Visnjica, you could come across people with this surname.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness. Was Madzarevic wearing civilian clothes or a

24 uniform?

25 A. He was in uniform.

Page 1214

1 Q. And the person with the ponytail?

2 A. He was also in uniform.

3 Q. Now, how many people of yours were around you at that time on that

4 meadow?

5 A. I didn't count them, and the idea didn't even occur to me. I was

6 thinking about my own fate. I heard someone who was a nurse in front of

7 me, and the imam, I heard them whispering and saying that there were about

8 2.000 people. But I didn't count the number of people and the idea didn't

9 even occur to me.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness. How many soldiers were guarding you? Do you

11 recall that?

12 A. There were quite a few of them. They didn't beat us. They didn't

13 provoke us. They gave people cigarettes. They gave smokers cigarettes.

14 I just recognised that policeman. Someone called him by his surname, not

15 by his first name. They approached him, greeted them, then they went to

16 the left into a house and stopped there. They spent some time there. I

17 don't know how long they spent and I didn't have a watch. Three of them

18 returned with him. He stood to the left of us. He called out the brother

19 and said: Give me the jacket. The brother got up, took his jacket, and

20 he said: Who is that? He said: He's my brother. His second brother

21 turned and called out to the third brother. He said: Who is he? He

22 said: It's my third brother. And he said: He should go too. Three of

23 the soldiers went with the three brothers. And above the house where the

24 wounded had been taken, that is the spot at which they disappeared without

25 a trace.

Page 1215

1 Q. Now, you just mentioned a policeman and told us what happened to

2 the policeman and his brothers. Do you recall the name of this policeman?

3 A. Amir Gabeljic.

4 Q. Was he a Muslim or a Serb policeman?

5 A. A Muslim.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned that there was a house with wounded people.

7 How many wounded people were there with you?

8 A. Well, there were quite a few wounded people. They had been taken

9 to that house, and nothing is known about any of them. I didn't count

10 them. I knew Mujo Turkovic. I knew Nusret. Nusret had only been wounded

11 in the shoulder, and the other person, his leg had been broken above the

12 knee.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, you said earlier that water was brought

14 at one time. Do you recall somebody complaining that he did not get

15 enough water?

16 A. Children who were perhaps -- children who went to the eighth grade

17 would bring water. One of our people was sitting in front of me, perhaps

18 in the third row. A child, a child I knew from a neighbouring village,

19 was carrying a 5-litre cannister of water. He got up, stretched out his

20 hands. Some people would have -- would drink on two or three occasions.

21 I hadn't drunk at all. A soldier kicked him in the head. A second

22 soldier kicked him in the head. He started bleeding from the nose and the

23 mouth. Someone took him by the collar and he was removed. They pulled

24 him about 5 or 6 metres away from us, and he was -- a burst of fire was

25 opened and he was shot. He remained in the field, and that young man saw

Page 1216

1 the body when he arrived.

2 Q. Now --

3 A. And Mladic --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. Mladic saw the body

5 when he arrived.


7 Q. Now, Witness, do you recall at any time seeing buses or trucks on

8 that asphalt road?

9 A. They were passing through from Potocari, with women, children, old

10 men. There were lorries without tarpaulins and with tarpaulins, and there

11 were buses too. And they more or less stopped and watched us sitting

12 there in the field.

13 Q. Did the buses continue?

14 A. The buses continued towards Vlasenica and Kladanj.

15 Q. Do you remember at what time in the afternoon, or whatever time

16 you think you have seen the buses?

17 A. I didn't have a watch. I tried to guide -- I tried to tell by the

18 sun. It was about 2.00 or 3.00.

19 Q. Now, did you see senior VRS officers coming to that field?

20 A. I saw Mladic come. I recognised him. I watched him on television

21 as soon as he arrived. I could see it was General Mladic. His first

22 words were: Isn't it better for you to surrender than to die? Naser has

23 left you. He's run away to Tuzla. It's not good to fight against the

24 Serbs. Families have almost been evacuated. They're in Tuzla, Kladanj,

25 Sevenice [phoen]. In two or three days, you'll probably be exchanged too.

Page 1217

1 Everyone will return to their families. No one will beat you; no one will

2 provoke you. We'll provide you with food. It's warm here. It's very hot

3 for you here. We'll place you somewhere -- we'll find accommodation for

4 you where it's cooler.

5 There was an applause and we said thank you. I raised my hand.

6 He said: What? I said: Can you see that I'm barefoot? I showed him my

7 right foot. I have shoes in my rucksack. Can you take them? Can I put

8 my shoes on? He said you'll get your shoes. I said thank you, General.

9 He then left and about 15 or 20 minutes later the man in civilian clothes

10 said we should form a column four by four. We started forming the column

11 and we headed in the direction of Kravica. I didn't know this place. We

12 went down the asphalt road, and on the right-hand side of the road there

13 was an UNPROFOR vehicle. I don't know who was in it. There was no

14 reaction. And on both sides --

15 Q. Before we go to Kravica, just one more question to you: Was there

16 a time when the Serb soldiers asked for volunteers to come out?

17 A. Yes. I forgot about that. They asked for about 13 -- 25 to 30

18 men. They climbed onto the lorry, threw down spades. I recognised a

19 relative of mine. He climbed onto the lorry. The lorry started, and

20 where they were taken, I don't know. They disappeared without a trace. I

21 saw that they threw spades and pickaxes onto a lorry.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness. You said that somebody ordered you to form a

23 column four by four. Was that the same person you had described earlier

24 as the commander who directed his soldiers not to point the gun at --

25 A. Yes. Yes. That's right.

Page 1218

1 Q. Now --

2 A. He was at the head of the column. He had a 53 or an 84. I don't

3 know. I couldn't distinguish it. The person who ordered us to form a

4 column with four men abreast, and the column headed in the direction of

5 Kravica. When we arrived in Kravica, in front of that hall, that must

6 have been some sort of agricultural warehouse. I didn't know that place.

7 A bus was parked there in front of the warehouse. And we passed between

8 the warehouse and the bus. There were two doors. I entered the second

9 entrance.

10 Q. Just one --

11 A. I entered the hall through the second entrance.

12 Q. Now, on the way between the field and Kravica, were there soldiers

13 standing, guarding you?

14 A. On both sides of the column, every 6 or 7 metres there was a

15 soldier, with automatic rifles, and they had belts across their chests.

16 From the place where we were sitting, in the direction of Kravica, on both

17 sides of the column.

18 Q. Now, you said that when you arrived at the warehouse, that there

19 was a bus. Now, on which side of the asphalt road was the warehouse?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On which side? Was it left or right?

22 A. On the right-hand side of the road, from the direction we were

23 coming from, that's where the warehouse was. And in front of the

24 warehouse there was a bus that was parked there. Between the warehouse

25 and the asphalt road.

Page 1219

1 Q. Do you recall that there were houses in that area?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And where were the houses?

4 A. There were houses both on the left and on the right-hand side of

5 the asphalt road. The warehouse was the first building on the right-hand

6 side, as far as I can remember.

7 MR. WAESPI: Now I would like Your Honours, the witness to be

8 shown Exhibit 10.1. You can have mine, and put it onto the ELMO, please.

9 Q. Now, Witness, if you could have a look at this picture, and I

10 believe you have seen it yesterday in my office. Can you tell us from

11 which direction --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- you came when you were part of that column? Just have a look

14 at it first, and then put it, please, back onto the ELMO, if you can do

15 that.

16 A. This is the asphalt road.

17 Q. Yes. Can you please put it back and turn towards the ELMO,

18 towards the machine which is on your right side. And now point it where

19 you came from.

20 A. I came from this direction. This is the side where the warehouse

21 was. It was on this door that I entered.

22 Q. And do you remember through which door the first part of the

23 column entered?

24 A. The first door.

25 Q. Now if you could be given --

Page 1220

1 A. Because when I got in to the warehouse, up to this door, it was

2 all filled up. There was absolutely no room for anyone else. If you had

3 dropped a lighter, it would have fallen on somebody. There was no free

4 space at all.

5 Q. Just one moment, Witness. If you could take a pen and mark with a

6 cross the little door you've just shown us where you entered the

7 warehouse.

8 A. That's the first door. This is the second door. The second door

9 that I entered through. This is where the bus was. Shall I also mark

10 that? Between the warehouse and the --

11 Q. Yes, please. Yes. And perhaps you can make a circle around the

12 cross where the bus was standing.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you very much. And perhaps you can show us where you came

15 from. Just make another cross on the asphalt road.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And the last thing I would like you to do is to mark another cross

18 at the door where the first part of your column was entering the

19 warehouse.

20 A. Shall I put a cross or a circle?

21 Q. A circle.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

24 MR. WAESPI: And just for the record, the witness has made four

25 points, and I start clockwise, with a circle, that's the last mark he

Page 1221

1 made, that's the door to the right, the opening, the far right of the

2 building. That's where the first part of the column entered. Then the

3 next dot is a cross on the asphalt road. That's where the witness said he

4 came from. The third in clockwise direction is a circle and the spot

5 where the bus was standing and the fourth dot is a cross, that's where the

6 witness entered the warehouse.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Waespi, what's the number of this piece of

8 document, just for the sake of the record?

9 MR. WAESPI: Yes. The exhibit is PX10, Prosecution Exhibit 10.1.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 MR. WAESPI: You're welcome.

12 Q. Now, Witness, when you entered the door, were there soldiers

13 guarding that door?

14 A. I went in through -- in between two soldiers. I went through the

15 hall of the warehouse and I went all the way to a corner. One soldier

16 there cursed and said: Sit down. And I said: I need to go to the wall,

17 because my back is hurting. So I went all the way to the corner of the

18 warehouse. By the time everybody got into the warehouse, they had no more

19 place to sit. A soldier just cursed him and said: Sit down. And then he

20 turned around, this last person, and said: Sit down. Sit down. And then

21 the bursts of fire started. There was firing everywhere. There was so

22 much dust. There was so much firing, you didn't know where the shots were

23 coming from. I couldn't see anything. That was just full of noise. Next

24 to me was sitting a man from Vlasenica called Salko Redzic. He was killed

25 there in the warehouse. We just sat down and put our heads next to each

Page 1222

1 other. And he died. And after darkness fell, there was no more shooting.

2 Q. Just one moment, please, Witness. Do you recall a guardhouse or a

3 reception booth inside the warehouse?

4 A. Inside, I didn't see any soldiers, but there was a kind of

5 reception booth under one roof, sort of, and during the night, in that

6 reception booth, I found a neighbour, because I was looking for water. He

7 asked me: Are you wounded? And I said: No. His name was Sali [phoen]

8 Zulfo. And he said: Lay down. So I did. And sometime before dawn, he

9 got up, and I took him by the trouser. I said: Lay down. And he said,

10 he said: I need to urinate. I need some water. But there was machine-gun

11 burst through the window and he fell down. And then I tried to pull him

12 by the leg to whether he was still alive but he wasn't moving.

13 Q. Now just briefly, if I may, going back to this reception booth:

14 When you turned into the warehouse, is it on the left side or on the right

15 side?

16 A. On the left-hand side from the entrance door that I got in

17 through, there was a kind of reception through. There was a kind of wall

18 there. I don't know whether there was a person who had been working there

19 at the reception, but it was like a reception booth. And after dawn

20 started, I placed two dead bodies on top of me, and this is where I stayed

21 the whole day, until the night. In the morning they asked me --

22 Q. Just going back to the shooting: The shooting, was it originating

23 from inside the building or from outside?

24 A. From the door and from the windows. They were also throwing

25 grenades and there were bursts of machine-gun fire. There was all kinds

Page 1223

1 of firing going into the warehouse.

2 Q. So they were shooting from outside through the windows and doors

3 inside to where you were staying?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, how were you sitting or standing while the shooting was going

6 on? Were you -- could you see the concrete floor?

7 A. Well, like this. Like this. This is how I managed to lay down.

8 There was no other way. On the right-hand side I tried to put my head

9 near Salko Redzic. In the corner, I couldn't lay down. I couldn't sit

10 down. That's how I was throughout, while the shooting lasted. And when

11 the night came and the shooting ceased, I got up. I was also thirsty. I

12 was looking for water. And this is when I got to the reception booth, and

13 I asked Zulfo about water. He said what do you mean about water? Lay

14 down. That's when I laid down. And it was near dawn that he got up and

15 he wanted to urinate and to find water, and this is when the machine-gun

16 burst just cut him down and he fell down. So then I placed the two dead

17 bodies on top of me, and this is where I spent the entire day until the

18 night.

19 In the morning, they asked: Is there anyone alive? Come out to

20 join our army. How many of them got up, got out, I don't know. I didn't

21 move. I didn't blink. I don't know whether anybody went into the buses

22 or anything. They asked if there were any wounded. The wounded said who

23 they were. Then they were killed. Which time of the day it was, I don't

24 know any more. There was no -- there was no sound. And suddenly somebody

25 started to shout: Salko, Salko. And then there was a curse, and the

Page 1224

1 soldier said: Some of you are still alive. And there was a machine-gun

2 burst. And then somebody started to shout: Adila, water. Adila, water.

3 And there was another curse about an Islamic tribe and there was a

4 machine-gun burst. Nobody then shouted or screamed or said anything until

5 night fell.

6 They started loading on the dead after nightfall, and there was an

7 order: Wash the asphalt and cover the bodies with straw. And I thought

8 they would set us all on fire. And I thought: Why should I now -- now

9 that I've survived, why should I be burnt alive? But they didn't set us

10 on fire. They washed the asphalt, and there was night. There was no

11 sound from in front of the warehouse. And I started to move. I got up,

12 and I sat down.

13 Q. Witness, please, just in order I'm clear in my mind: You said

14 that there was a time when there was an order to put straw on the bodies

15 and to wash the asphalt. And you also said that they started loading on

16 the dead after nightfall. Do you remember that you heard some sound from

17 a truck? And can you explain what happened?

18 A. As far as I know, they were loading these dead bodies and they

19 were taking them somewhere. I don't know where. But when I got out

20 through that door that I had got in through, they hadn't taken away the

21 dead. There were dead bodies all the way to the door. I crossed over the

22 dead bodies. I heard some whispers, but I didn't understand whether it

23 was outside or inside. I was going towards the whisper, whoever it was,

24 and then --

25 Q. Witness, please, you said that they were taking the bodies away.

Page 1225

1 Do you recall how they did it? Was there a truck that arrived?

2 A. Engines were heard, but I was inside. Most probably these were

3 lorries.

4 Q. Do you remember something happening to the wall of the warehouse?

5 A. The walls were shaking. Whether the walls were being destroyed or

6 what, I don't know. But as far as I could see, the warehouse was

7 shaking. I was on the ground.

8 Q. And why was the warehouse shaking?

9 A. Presumably from the wall being destroyed.

10 Q. And do you know why they would want to destroy the wall?

11 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm going to object.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MS. SINATRA: The witness said he didn't see anything, he felt the

14 wall shaking, and this question calls for speculation on the part of the

15 witness. He said he didn't see anything, he just heard truck engines.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

17 MR. WAESPI: That's fine, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think you have to drop this question.


20 Q. Now, you said, Witness, that you were going towards the whisper

21 when you decided to leave.

22 A. When I got up, I was perhaps sitting down for an hour. I couldn't

23 get to my feet, because I was completely frozen. I couldn't move. And

24 then I started to slowly move my arms and legs to try and go towards this

25 whisper. Whether they were Serbs or our people, I got to two men. I

Page 1226

1 could see they were ours. So I said: Let's escape. One of them was

2 young, tall, and he said: We can't escape together. I said: Where are

3 you from? He said: I'm from Lolici. I said: Let us go together. I

4 don't know where to go around here. I don't know this area. This is like

5 being dropped from the sky into here. He said: We can't go together. So

6 I asked the other men: Where are you from? And he just shrugged his

7 shoulder. He said: I can't hear you well. He was Ramiz Muskic from

8 Cerska. I asked him again for the third time to let me go with him, but

9 he wouldn't let me go with him.

10 So I got up, I got my torn boots from my feet. I was carrying

11 them in my hands. I got out from the same door that I had gotten in and I

12 was going towards the road. And this Ramiz was going with me. I got to

13 the asphalt road. I crossed the asphalt road. A soldier shouted stop and

14 I laid down. He then said: Get up, get up. I was still down. Get up,

15 get up. And then I jumped up and I went behind the warehouse and I went

16 flying past the warehouse wall and I went down to the stream. I didn't

17 hear any noise or any bursts of fire behind me. We went through some kind

18 of a wheat field, and we couldn't -- I couldn't speak to him very loudly.

19 And he couldn't understand me, this other man. And I said: Where shall

20 we go? He said: Kaldrmica, Suceska, Baljkovica. I know the road to

21 Baljkovica. We were perhaps 200, 300 metres from the warehouse. There

22 were some burst of fire heard and this person from Lolici never came up

23 again. Whether he was killed or wounded I don't know.

24 The only thing I know what I was told by my neighbour who had been

25 imprisoned that the soldiers said two people escaped from Kravica, Muskic,

Page 1227

1 Ramiz, from Cerska escaped. But that man from Lolici didn't know my name.

2 So I imagine that this person had been wounded and they did not have any

3 other information except for us two. And so I was with this man for about

4 five days near Pobudje. I had to go with him because I didn't know the

5 area. I wanted to go back just to Cerska, Baljkovica, not anywhere else.

6 Every night we tried to cross the asphalt road, but it was well guarded

7 and we couldn't get across. And we heard the Muslim names being called,

8 Zulfo, Bajra, Mustafa, come out. And we didn't want to come out. Then we

9 got to some kind of an area, and we found more people who were hiding in

10 the woods. And people would come and come out with different foods they

11 found in the woods. They also found a wounded. I found a wounded man who

12 was from a neighbouring village, two people from Zapolje. I was trying to

13 convince him to go to Suceska. Ramiz Muskic didn't want to come there.

14 The other two from Zapolje said they would go. So we set off towards

15 Suceska and then two other people from neighbouring village joined us near

16 Rogac and we then set off towards Zepa. We came to the village of

17 Slatina. It was completely torched. We found some flour. We had some

18 bread. We spent the night there, then we set off from there. We spent

19 the night at Zedanjsko. We then had some bread and we set off towards

20 Zepa. When I crossed the asphalt road in Djile that was known to me just

21 like Suceska was. It was on the 26th of July that I came to Zepa; on the

22 29th, Zepa fell.

23 I was around the rocks for nine days because I knew that area.

24 And then 16 of us decided to set off towards Tuzla. We got to Zalisina.

25 We didn't have enough bread to last the journey. And then five of them

Page 1228

1 stayed behind. One teacher asked me: Do you know the road to Stedric?

2 And I said: I do know, but the road to Stedric has been mined. And he

3 said: Let's go to Suceska. If we could get some food to get to Tuzla.

4 So we from Stedric went to Suceska. Two of them at the crossroads between

5 Zalisina and Basca, there is a road to Zalisina and one going to Basca,

6 two were killed. One teacher, that teacher, and one from the Bratunac

7 municipality. And we got to Suceska. And we were in Suceska until the

8 9th of September; 9th of September we set off towards Kladanj. And this

9 teacher who had been killed and this another person with the same name was

10 also killed. We had stayed in this -- in the stables and this is where we

11 found and one of them went to get water, and that's how we survived. If

12 he hadn't got out to get water, he would have been captured there in the

13 stables. These two people were killed there.

14 Q. Witness, I understand that you eventually arrived at the free

15 territory on the 17th of September, 1995.

16 A. To Kladanj. And on the 9th of September, I set off as we were

17 roaming. We didn't know the area. This is like being nine pieces of

18 cattle in a forest. It was on the 9th of September we got to Kladanj,

19 three of us. While the others, we were dispersed at the line. And then

20 two came on another day. And then there were two men who came yet another

21 day, and another group had joined them and --

22 Q. Witness, if I may. I just have a two brief questions to clarify.

23 First: How many people were with you in the warehouse?

24 A. Those who had been in the field, from what I had heard, people

25 whispering that there were about 2.000. All of them had gone into the

Page 1229

1 warehouse. But on the spot, I didn't count, and it didn't even cross my

2 mind to count. What I heard was this estimate of these two people, that

3 there were 2.000 people, but these two men who were talking to each other,

4 but that it was more or less than that, I had no idea. I didn't think

5 about counting that. I was only counting about how I's going to stay

6 alive. That's all I was thinking about.

7 Q. Now, you said that when you had to leave or when you decided to

8 leave the warehouse through the door, that you saw bodies, that you had to

9 climb over the bodies. Is that true?

10 A. Everyone was on the ground. I was crawling across the bodies. I

11 didn't dare stand up. I was crawling across the bodies to get to the

12 exit.

13 Q. Now, at the exit, you said when you came in, there was a bus and

14 tanks. Now, when you left, what vehicles did you see? The same ones or

15 different ones?

16 A. In front of the warehouse, when I got out, there was just a

17 loader. There were no buses. And the tank had remained on that field

18 where we had been when we got there.

19 Q. What kind of a loader was that?

20 A. I don't know what it's like from the inside. I have no idea.

21 Q. Can you describe it? What was its function when it was working?

22 How did it look like?

23 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

25 MS. SINATRA: The witness has said he didn't see the machinery

Page 1230

1 moving, so he can't testify as to what its function was.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm not quite sure what a loader is, you know.

3 Maybe -- and the witness said that, you know, he did not know how it

4 functioned inside. Maybe the witness could give some descriptions about

5 how it looks like outside.


7 Q. Witness, did you understand His Honour's question? Can you

8 describe to the Judges the way the loader looked like?

9 A. When I was getting out of the warehouse, it was next to the

10 entrance door, to the right-hand side of me, as I got to the asphalt

11 road. I didn't watch out for it. I didn't observe it. I didn't monitor

12 it. It was night. I was looking around for soldiers. I wasn't looking

13 out to see what the description of this loader machine would be.

14 Q. While you were inside, do you remember hearing it moving or

15 hearing anything moving?

16 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MS. SINATRA: I'm just -- have to object here, because I don't

19 know whether Mr. Waespi is talking about bodies moving. If he's talking

20 about equipment moving, then that's been asked and answered.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think so. I don't think so.

22 You may proceed, Mr. Waespi.

23 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. This loader we were talking about, did you hear it moving while

25 you were inside the warehouse?

Page 1231

1 A. During the night, it didn't move, but during the day, it did move,

2 naturally. But I didn't observe it, and I didn't move around.

3 Q. Can you just explain to the Judges what a loader is, in your

4 words.

5 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm going to --


7 MS. SINATRA: -- have to object, because he said he didn't see

8 this piece of equipment, it was night-time, he's not familiar, and all he

9 did was hear a truck sound when he was inside the building during the

10 day. I don't believe he's qualified to answer this question.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the witness told us, you know, he saw a

12 loader. I personally asked the question: What is a loader?

13 MS. SINATRA: I think that he asked that question and the

14 gentleman said that he couldn't see it, it was night.

15 JUDGE LIU: Let us try it once again.


17 Q. Witness, you said when you left the warehouse that you saw the

18 loader. Can you tell us, can you tell the Judges, what a loader is? What

19 is it meant for?

20 A. I imagine that it loaded dead bodies into the lorry, since the

21 dead bodies were taken from there. There were no dead bodies at the

22 entrance that I used to enter. They were gathered from the other

23 entrance, and they said that they were washing the asphalt. I imagine

24 that there was blood there.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

Page 1232

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why the asphalt was washed.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

3 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I ask to strike that testimony, because

4 he said he would imagine. He has no knowledge. He's speculating

5 completely about the purpose of this loader or whatever the piece of

6 equipment is, and that part of the testimony should be stricken from the

7 record.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, thank you very much for drawing our

9 attention to that. We noticed that the witness answered that he

10 imagined. When we evaluate this piece of the evidence, we'll take your

11 objection into consideration.

12 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Waespi.


15 Q. Witness, going back to the loader, you just described, if you can

16 think back the way you saw it. Did it have wheels or did it have ropes?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. Karnavas.

19 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: That's okay. I apologise for interrupting. I

21 think if Mr. Waespi would just ask the gentleman to describe what he saw

22 and let the witness just give us a description rather than giving him

23 hints of what he might have seen and what have you. Because I don't

24 believe the question has ever been asked: Please describe what you saw.

25 And I think that's -- that would be fair.

Page 1233

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you. I agree with you.

2 Mr. Waespi, please rephrase your question.

3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President.

4 Q. Witness, the loader, when you left the warehouse, can you describe

5 in as much detail as you can the way the loader looked like, the details

6 you saw. Describe this vehicle to the Judges.

7 A. When I came out -- well, I think it was yellow. I think the

8 colour of the loader was yellow, but I don't know whether it had

9 caterpillar traction or whether it had wheels. I couldn't say, because I

10 didn't pay attention. I was concerned with whether there was someone else

11 in front of me when I was coming out.

12 Q. Can you describe the front of the vehicle?

13 A. Well, I think it had some sort of a hoe, but I'm not sure. I

14 didn't pay attention. I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't a

15 soldier in front of me.

16 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I have no more questions for this

17 witness.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll have our break and we'll resume at

19 12.35.

20 And, Witness, you have to stay where you are until the usher shows

21 you out of the room. Thank you.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. In keeping with comments

Page 1234

1 from the Bench on Friday and given the sensitivity of the witness that we

2 had, I thought I would bring this matter outside the presence of the

3 witness, and then lay a foundation, if necessary, and then get some sort

4 of guidance from the Bench as to how I should proceed. The gentleman on

5 the direct examination gave his description pretty much in the way he's

6 given his description in a previous statement. Through 92 bis, the Court

7 has already ruled at the -- and this was at the request of the Prosecution

8 that a particular witness be added onto that list, and it's Witness Number

9 63, who previously testified as Witness K.

10 Now, as I understand it, through 92 bis his prior testimony has

11 come in. However, this particular witness has given a statement.

12 Actually, he's given several statements, but one in particular that is

13 slightly different, or I should say remarkably different, with some

14 aspects to it, than the gentleman here. In particular, with respect to

15 how the events of the atrocities occurred in Kravica. And it's relevant

16 for the following reasons that I bring this out, and my question, of

17 course, is: Can I confront this gentleman with the other gentleman's

18 statement and other to see whether he agrees or agrees, for the purposes

19 of laying a record, or do I need to make a request for this witness to

20 appear, or will the Court take the statement itself, along with the

21 testimony, as part of the 92 bis?

22 The witness here testifies that the atrocities occur all at one

23 time when the shooting occurs from the outside, shooting in. The previous

24 witness, Witness K, who is now Witness 63, describes two separate

25 incidents, which is more in keeping with certain evidence that we have

Page 1235

1 received from the Office of the Prosecutor, in particular, we have

2 recently received a letter from a witness who has testified that he was

3 told by another witness that on that particular day, on the day of the

4 13th of July, he was in the presence of General Mladic when a phone call

5 was placed, in the afternoon, where apparently it aggravated General

6 Mladic and then he issued the statement: Kill them all. And I have the

7 statement here, Your Honour, and I'm willing to tender it for the record.

8 That becomes extremely critical to the Defence, because the

9 Prosecution has opened, and in fact has drafted an indictment on the basis

10 that there was a plan that commenced as of the 12th, which is also what,

11 as I understand, Mr. Nikolic has given a statement to that on the morning

12 of the 12th, he was told there is a plan that we're going to be killing

13 them all. And so obviously, this issue is very, very critical as to

14 whether the events went down in the way this witness tells us or the way

15 it went down -- the way Witness K testifies, because that comports with

16 also a statement by a witness, or he was a suspect at the time when he was

17 questioned. He is a Serb. He is not on the witness list of the

18 Prosecution, and that particular witness indicated that he became aware of

19 the initial shooting incident, responded to the scene, where one person

20 was killed, one Serb soldier was killed, and another one was injured.

21 That is relevant because we also were provided, from the Prosecution,

22 which was also included in Butler's report, the medical chart, which

23 indeed shows that one Serb soldier was killed and another one was treated

24 for his hands being burned when a weapon was taken away during a shooting

25 incident, that was initiated by -- when one of the Muslim prisoners took

Page 1236

1 the weapon away, shot, apparently, the Serb soldier. That initiated a

2 response outside the compound. And then we have the phone call to General

3 Mladic. Then we have Mladic stating to this particular witness: Kill

4 them all. And then so we see -- so we can see a series of events that are

5 remarkably different than the ones that the Prosecution has opened with,

6 has drafted in this indictment, and is relying on through certain

7 witnesses.

8 So my question is -- and I have all of these documents, Your

9 Honour. If you wish me to tender them, I can do so at this time. We've

10 copied them, in anticipation that you may wish to have them. My question

11 now is: Given the sensitivity of this particular witness, can I go ahead

12 and state that there is another witness, another survivor, who gives a

13 different account? Or would the Court prefer for me to simply tender the

14 statement itself given by the gentleman, by Witness 63, in which event

15 there would be necessarily no need for me to cross-examine the gentleman?

16 I don't know if I'm making myself clear for the Bench.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 Any response? Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: This witness is, as all our witnesses, ready to be

20 cross-examined by appropriate evidence. The other Kravica warehouse

21 survivor, as counsel said, is in the record in 92 bis. I'm not aware of

22 any major differences between the two. The other survivor was in the

23 other part of the warehouse, and whether this was a continuing execution

24 with individual shots and hand grenades or whether it went over a longer

25 period of time or there was a break in between is something I think this

Page 1237

1 counsel, if that's an issue for him, should be free to cross-examine on,

2 of course. And I don't see that it's a major issue, and this witness and

3 his ability to talk about the time and space, perhaps there isn't even any

4 difference.

5 So that would be -- and so I don't think it's fair

6 cross-examination for him to suggest there is another Kravica survivor

7 that says this. I think if he says: What about this, and gives that

8 information to cross-examine him or impeach him, I think that's perfectly

9 fine, but it's not really fair, you know, to point out somebody else. And

10 on the -- just on the issue of Mr. Karnavas -- there is two issues related

11 to Kravica warehouse that he has brought up, because there are accounts

12 that -- and -- that it was started by something between -- that a Muslim

13 came out of the crowd, grabbed a rifle, shot a couple of Serbs, and the

14 Serbs responded by killing everyone. That's one part of the story. The

15 other part of the story is that during the execution, a Muslim came out of

16 the crowd, grabbed an executioner's gun, killed some people, and we may

17 never know which story is the truth. But counsel is correct. We do have

18 some interesting medical documents that show people wounded, one would

19 burnt hands, as part of the account. But I don't see where that really

20 fits into this picture. That is evidence that counsel has, can be a part

21 of his case, can be cross-examined. This witness is ready to be

22 cross-examined by anything like that. And so I think he's ready to do

23 that.

24 JUDGE LIU: So in principle, you do not oppose that Defence

25 counsel using the 92 bis statement to cross-examine the present witness.

Page 1238

1 Is that my understanding?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Counsel can use anything reasonable in

3 cross-examination. That, as we know, is a very broad -- they can use

4 whatever they think is relevant.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

6 Mr. Karnavas, your request is granted.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the witness, please.

9 Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to continue?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. Your cross-examination.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. It's a bit awkward.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Karnavas, please.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: It's a bit awkward from this position since the

17 witness can't see me, but I assume that he won't have problems. I'll wait

18 for the shades to come up, Your Honour.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: We don't have any problem with Mr. Karnavas

20 moving. He does have the right to confront witnesses.

21 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. That would be fine. Thank you.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

24 Q. Good morning, sir. Now, as I understand it, before coming here

25 today you had an opportunity to make several statements; is that correct?

Page 1239

1 And do you recall making a statement back as early as October 1995?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Before coming here today, did you have an opportunity to read the

4 statement?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Okay. And how recently were you able to read your statement?

7 When was the last time you looked at it?

8 A. I read it yesterday.

9 Q. Okay. Do you have it handy with you or would you like a copy of

10 it just in case you need to refresh your memory?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What did you say?


14 Q. All right. Let me take you back to July 13th, 1995, okay?

15 A. That's all right.

16 Q. It's my understanding that at some time during the morning hours

17 you were taken down by the meadow.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it was sometime around 1.30, at least that's what you've

20 indicated in your previous statement, is when General Mladic showed up.

21 A. I don't know whether it was at that time exactly, because I didn't

22 have a watch. I don't know at what time he appeared at the meadow, not

23 exactly.

24 Q. But that's your testimony today, but back when you gave your

25 statement, on October of -- actually, I see here it's September 21, 1995 -

Page 1240

1 you indicated that he showed up sometime around 1.30.

2 A. Well, it was about that time, but I don't know the exact time, as

3 I didn't have a watch. Perhaps it was a minute later, a minute earlier.

4 Q. He stayed there for a while and then he left?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it's your testimony today that he could visibly see someone

7 who had been shot and was dead nearby him; is that correct?

8 A. He saw a dead body, but he didn't react at all.

9 Q. Okay. Now, I make -- I ask the question because there was another

10 individual there along with you who has given a statement to the

11 Prosecution, who has indicated that before Mladic came, that particular

12 body had been taken away, and therefore, Mladic could not have seen that

13 anyone had been killed, at least in that area.

14 A. While I was there, that body wasn't taken away. Mladic personally

15 saw him, if you want to have a look. It's true that there was grass

16 there, but the body was there.

17 Q. Okay. And it's your understanding that he could have -- he would

18 have been able to see it from where he was standing?

19 A. He could have seen it if he wanted to look.

20 Q. Okay. Do you know whether he looked in that direction?

21 A. The body was to the right of me, and he was facing us. As soon as

22 he saw us, he must have seen the body too. The body couldn't have been

23 more than 6 or 7 metres away.

24 Q. All right. Now, sometime thereafter, a bus came; is that

25 correct? Mladic left and then sometime later a bus came?

Page 1241

1 A. Buses and lorries were passing by. It wasn't just one bus.

2 Several buses and lorries passed by. They were heading from Potocari, in

3 the direction of Tuzla.

4 Q. Okay. Well, you're correct on that. But aside from those buses

5 and lorries that were loaded full of people, going away from Bratunac, one

6 bus, as I understand it, came to where all of you had been gathered, and

7 that's where there was a request for volunteers; is that correct?

8 A. The bus wasn't there for volunteers, but there was someone - he

9 must have been a commander - who said that they needed 20 to 30 men, up to

10 25 years of age, for some sort of working unit. And they climbed onto the

11 lorry and threw pickaxes and lorries inside, and they left and disappeared

12 without a trace.

13 Q. All right. So it's your --

14 A. But the bus didn't come to fetch anyone. It's just that there

15 were buses and lorries passing by from Potocari.

16 Q. All right. So it was a truck that came by, not a bus, to pick up

17 the 25 or 30 young men?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, at some point after that, you were asked to form a column and

20 march towards Kravica; is that correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And it's my understanding from your previous statements that

23 that -- the line of people was approximately four, five, maybe as long as

24 600 metres long. Is that correct?

25 A. 4 to 500 metres long on a bend. I saw the forward end, and I

Page 1242

1 looked behind me and I saw the rear end. I would estimate that it was

2 about 4 or 500 metres long, but I couldn't assess this with precision, but

3 in my opinion, it was between 4 and 500 metres long.

4 Q. And you were somewhere in the middle of this line of people; is

5 that correct?

6 A. I was somewhere in the middle of the column.

7 Q. And if I understand you correctly, you have approximated that

8 there were somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2.000 people with-- you know,

9 all together?

10 A. All together, but that wasn't my estimate. But I heard people

11 discussing this in front of me. There was an imam and a nurse. They were

12 whispering and they said that there must be about 2.000 people in the

13 column. But I didn't count the people, and this idea didn't even occur to

14 me. It didn't occur to anyone. But this was their estimate, which I

15 accepted.

16 Q. Okay. So you don't have an independent estimation of your own?

17 A. I didn't count. That is the only estimate I heard. They thought

18 there were about 2.000 people there. But whether there were more people

19 there or fewer people there, I don't know.

20 Q. All right. Now, by the time you reached -- how long did it take

21 you to get to Kravica, once you formed the line, or formation, how long

22 did it take you to walk all the way to Kravica, to the warehouse?

23 A. I didn't take that route by bus or by foot. It was a hot day. I

24 don't think we travelled for very long. I didn't have a watch. I don't

25 know how long it took.

Page 1243

1 Q. Well, was it 10 minutes, 15 minutes, a half hour, or is that too

2 difficult to guess right now?

3 A. In such cases, in such situations, it wasn't possible for me to

4 estimate how long it took me to get to Kravica. It was very hot. We were

5 afraid. It was dangerous.

6 Q. And when you got to the warehouse, people had already been inside

7 it, had they not?

8 A. The people at the front had already entered. I entered by going

9 through the second entrance, given my position in the column.

10 Q. All right. So some were going through the first entrance and some

11 were going through the second; is that what you recall?

12 A. Yes. Yes. I remember entering by the second entrance very well,

13 and at the second entrance it was full. Everyone was sitting down there.

14 Q. Okay. And do you know how many people were already in the

15 warehouse by the time you got there?

16 A. Perhaps about half of them, perhaps more, perhaps less. Those who

17 left from the meadow all got to the warehouse.

18 Q. How long had they been there before you got there? Do you know?

19 A. The first column that entered through the first entrance, not for

20 long, because there were no pauses. As you would arrive you would enter

21 via the first entrance and then via the second entrance. If there wasn't

22 enough room, you got in via the second entrance.

23 Q. All right. But may I ask you: How long had they been there? Do

24 you know?

25 A. How long I was there for and the others? Or are you talking

Page 1244

1 about --

2 Q. The others -- okay. Let me -- I apologise for not asking a

3 clearer question. Do you know how long the folks had already been in the

4 warehouse before you got there?

5 A. The people who were in front of me. Perhaps they entered 15 or 20

6 minutes before I did.

7 Q. Okay. And do you know whether anybody was in the warehouse

8 already before those -- the group of people that you were with were

9 already in the warehouse? I'm sorry. Let me rephrase it. Do you know

10 whether the warehouse had anybody inside it before your group of people

11 got to the warehouse?

12 A. In relation to the first group? I don't know when the first

13 people entered the warehouse. I don't know whether anyone was there

14 then. But when I entered the warehouse, the people who were in front of

15 me were there. But as to whether those who were at the front of the

16 column came across any other people when they entered the warehouse, this

17 is something that I don't know.

18 Q. Now, before you left with a group of people, it's my understanding

19 that a commander came by and was asking prisoners under 17 years of age,

20 and women, to stand up. Do you recall that? And that they were allowed

21 to board buses that were passing on the road?

22 A. I didn't see those women and children who were ordered to board

23 buses.

24 Q. But do you recall whether buses were stopping to allow prisoners

25 under 17 years of age, and women, to board buses as they were going --

Page 1245

1 A. When they passed by us, when the buses passed by us, they more or

2 less stopped. A boy who was carrying water. He is the only person I saw

3 entering a bus. I didn't see anyone else. He was carrying two cannisters

4 of water. He then put them down and he entered the bus. He got on the

5 bus.

6 Q. And now, how long had you been in the warehouse before the

7 shooting began?

8 A. When I entered the warehouse, after 15 or 20 minutes, the last

9 person entered the warehouse and the shooting started. When he entered

10 the warehouse, he didn't sit down. He didn't even have the time to sit

11 down. The shooting had already broken out by then.

12 Q. And it's my understanding that you've described the shooting

13 taking place from 5.00 in the afternoon --

14 A. In my opinion, it was about that time. Perhaps it was later,

15 perhaps it was earlier, but I think it was about 5.00.

16 Q. Yes. And you indicated that it occurred from 1700 hours until it

17 grew dark, at about 2100 hours. So I take it that would be how many

18 hours? Four hours?

19 A. It lasted for about four hours, until night fell.

20 Q. Okay. Now, as I indicated, there's another individual who was

21 there at the time that you were there, and he's given a statement and has

22 indicated that: "There was an earlier incident that occurred outside the

23 warehouse, sometime perhaps around 5.00 or so - it's unclear - and that

24 the shooting, the actual shooting, took place at around 9.00 at night or

25 10.00, when it got dark." My question is: Do you recall any shooting

Page 1246

1 taking place --

2 A. No, it wasn't -- the shooting started before night fell. It

3 started before dark and continued until night fell.

4 Q. Now, was there shooting going on outside the building? In other

5 words, there was an incident outside before the shooting occurred inside?

6 A. I didn't hear anything. I didn't hear shooting outside until they

7 started shooting inside. But when they started shooting in the

8 warehouse -- well, it's difficult for me to say whether there was shooting

9 outside the warehouse or shooting inside. It was chaos.

10 Q. So you don't recall any shooting happening on the outside?

11 A. When we entered the warehouse, there was no shooting outside,

12 until they started shooting in the warehouse.

13 Q. Okay. So you're certain the testimony here today --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi. Yes, yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I heard is that --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

17 MR. WAESPI: I think the witness answered twice already that there

18 was chaos and that he didn't hear anything, and I think he gave his

19 answer.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 Yes, Mr. Karnavas. I think the witness has answered this question

22 clearly.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

24 Q. So you -- I take it you disagree with the other individual who was

25 at that location who gives a different account from the one that you've

Page 1247

1 just given us?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

3 MR. WAESPI: I think that's a way Mr. Karnavas started the

4 incident. He told us that there was somebody else and the witness gave

5 his account, and I don't think there is need to come back to that.

6 JUDGE LIU: It's quite clear from the transcript, Mr. Karnavas.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I wanted to make sure that

8 I had a foundation to get the document in, the statement given by the

9 other witness. That was the purpose of that question. I have no further

10 questions, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

12 Any cross-examination? Ms. Sinatra.

13 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I have a couple of questions.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Sinatra:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Just briefly, I'd like to go back to

16 your testimony today. You did state that you escaped from the Kravica

17 warehouse on the night of the 14th of July, didn't you?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. And you testified that in 1992 you were a member of the JNA; is

20 that right?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

22 MR. WAESPI: I don't recall that he testified that he was a member

23 of the JNA in 1992.

24 JUDGE LIU: But the witness was in the army.

25 MR. WAESPI: Yes, he was asked about 1995, and there was no JNA in

Page 1248

1 1995.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 MS. SINATRA: Okay. Well, I will rephrase my question.

4 Q. You --

5 A. In 1992, on the 17th of April, 1992, I was registered as a soldier

6 up until 1995.

7 Q. And in 1995, you were a member of the BH army?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you did testify --

10 A. Of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. Thank you very much. You testified that it was dark and at night

12 on July 14th when you escaped Kravica and that you did not see the trucks

13 or equipment that you heard during the day, did you?

14 A. I didn't. Only the loader that was there. There were no other

15 vehicles.

16 Q. And after dark, you said that you thought that the loader that you

17 saw was yellow in colour, didn't you?

18 A. As far as I could tell, it was yellow. That's what I noticed

19 while I was passing by, because I only followed the asphalt road and I was

20 only concerned about there not being anyone on the asphalt road.

21 Q. Thank you. And as a military man, you know that the equipment

22 from the military is an olive-green colour and the civilian equipment is

23 yellow, don't you?

24 A. The vehicle that I saw there was yellow.

25 Q. The uniform that you described during your testimony today, you

Page 1249

1 said some of the soldiers that were working with -- I mean that there --

2 had you in custody had blue uniforms with white belts on them. Now, these

3 uniforms are the uniforms of the MUP, or the Ministry of the Interior,

4 aren't they?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

6 MR. WAESPI: If Ms. Sinatra could tell us where the witness said

7 that he had seen blue uniforms with white belts. I do not recall that

8 today.

9 JUDGE LIU: I don't remember that either.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that. I saw the

11 military uniforms. They had short-cut hair. It was the regular army

12 troops, and they didn't have white belts.

13 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, if I might just a moment find his prior

14 testimony.

15 Q. So you've never dealt with the soldiers at the time who had blue

16 uniforms and white belts; is that what your testimony is today?

17 A. No. I haven't.

18 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I have no further questions, and thank

19 you very much for being here.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 Any re-direct?

22 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President. But I would like the interpreters

23 to tell us what loader means in B/C/S, what the witness testified. Just I

24 would like to hear the word what the witness said in B/C/S when it was

25 translated to us into English he said loader.

Page 1250

1 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour --

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

3 MS. SINATRA: Yes. I'd like to object to this questioning of the

4 interpreter's booth. They interpreted live the testimony of the witness.

5 If he has any written submissions about this, then I believe they should

6 be submitted in writing but it's improper for the Prosecutor to question

7 the interpretation booth.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Waespi, I think we could check the record to

9 see what this word is in B/C/S. There's no need to call an interpreter to

10 give a sort of testimony.

11 Agree with me?

12 MR. WAESPI: I do, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good afternoon, Witness. I have a question about

16 this loader. What made you tell us that this was a loader vehicle? How

17 did you know it was a loader vehicle?

18 A. According to my estimate, it was a loader because there were no

19 dead bodies around the second entrance that I had gone through.

20 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Sorry to interrupt you. I don't know what a

21 loader is, so I want you to explain me how do you know it was a loader?

22 A. Because I heard the lorry engine and because they had been washing

23 the asphalt. There must have been blood on the asphalt that they wanted

24 to wash off. So the dead bodies must have been taken away. But where

25 they were taken, I don't know.

Page 1251

1 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I think I'm not clear enough, and perhaps you

2 didn't understand the question. What you answered just now, it was a

3 lorry and they had been washing something. Did this washing have to do

4 with what you call a loader?

5 A. The loader was there in the course of the day. The buses were

6 going in whichever direction they were going. But the order was to wash

7 the asphalt off, and there was an assistant truck that came for the water,

8 because there had been blood on the asphalt from all the dead bodies.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. They were not buses,

10 they were lorries.

11 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. I won't insist.

12 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of judge's question?

13 Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

14 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I just have one question.

15 Further cross-examination by Ms. Sinatra:

16 Q. The truth is you say the loader came during the day, but you

17 didn't see anything during the day, did you?

18 A. Because I was inside, and because I had pulled dead bodies on top

19 of me. I was only thinking about my life. I couldn't see anything

20 outside from the inside, and what kind of loader it was, because I didn't

21 dare to look, let alone move.

22 MS. SINATRA: Non-responsive. I'm sorry, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the witness answered your question.

24 MS. SINATRA: I didn't hear whether he said no, he couldn't see

25 any loader, or yes, he could see anything from the inside.

Page 1252

1 JUDGE LIU: I think the witness just described the situation. He

2 was there. He said that: I could not see anything outside from the

3 inside. Is that the answer?

4 MS. SINATRA: That's perfect, Your Honour. Thank you.


6 Yes, Mr. Waespi. Do you want to ask a question?

7 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

10 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. The first document is again this

11 piece with his name on it, and this, I'm told by our case manager, should

12 be P59. And the next piece of exhibit will be renamed because he marked

13 on it. The witness. So that will be P60. That's the aerial of the

14 warehouse marked by the witness.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 Any objections? Mr. Karnavas?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 Ms. Sinatra?

20 MS. SINATRA: No objections, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Those documents are admitted into

22 evidence.

23 Are there any documents to tender from Defence side? Mr. Karnavas?

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would ask that -- I

25 would like to tender the gentleman's statement that he gave on -- it was

Page 1253

1 October 1995, but there's a date at the bottom of it, processed 4 November

2 1995. It was presented to us by the Office of the Prosecution. And also

3 I would like to enter into -- as an exhibit Witness 63, or previously

4 known as Witness K, his statement, which I referred to, to which the

5 gentleman did not agree to certain facts that were in that particular

6 statement.

7 As I've indicated, Witness 63, his testimony from the previous

8 trial has been entered into under Rule 92 bis. I think, under the rule of

9 completeness, it would make sense to also have that, and I think, given

10 that I made references to his statement -- to the gentleman's statement

11 that were given back in October 1995, I think it would also be relevant,

12 since they both tie together.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections?

14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. We do have no objections to the

15 statement of this witness to come in, the one he gave on 27th October

16 1995. We don't have an objection. We -- it should come in under seal,

17 though, including also the Prosecution Exhibit which we have mentioned.

18 We do have an objection, though, as to the second statement of the witness

19 who is not coming to testify because he came in under 92 bis. I think it

20 would have been the appropriate time for the Defence to object and to

21 point to differences between court testimony, transcript, and statement at

22 the time they had their chance to object during our 92 bis motion, which

23 they did not do, as far as I recall.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 Mr. Karnavas.

Page 1254

1 MR. KARNAVAS: I would be delighted to answer that part,

2 delighted. The Office of the Prosecutor was presented with a document on

3 April 28th, 2003, the one that I was referring to, where it was given to

4 them by a representative of the RS government, wherein it states that

5 there was a witness who saw General Mladic make the statement "Kill them

6 all" after hearing the news presumably that a Muslim soldier had killed a

7 Serb soldier on the spot.

8 The motion for the 92 bis - and I apologise for not having it

9 here. We thought that the witness would be testifying tomorrow, based on

10 what Mr. McCloskey had told us yesterday. So I don't have that motion.

11 But as I understand it, that motion was filed in late February, and so

12 based on the information that we had at that point, and of course the

13 information that the Prosecution had, it didn't appear to us that it was

14 necessary. In light of this material that we have now, it becomes very

15 relevant, and I find it supremely ironic that the Prosecution would like

16 you to have the truth, but only part of the truth. They want 92 bis --

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. This kind of nonsense

18 is -- I object and I will interrupt him on this point.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, state your reasons. We'll listen

20 to it. But not attack the other party.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not attacking the other party, Your Honour.

22 What I'm simply stating is that they have the statement. The statement

23 was given to us by them. They only want the trial transcript, but my

24 question is: What are they afraid of? Why not have that statement come

25 in, especially when it contradicts the witness that they brought forward?

Page 1255

1 The other alternative would be for us to make arrangements to

2 bring that witness here. And I think if the goal of the Tribunal, as I'm

3 told, is to expedite these proceedings and to not waste time, energy,

4 money, and what have you, or retraumatise certain individuals, I think the

5 most appropriate thing under the circumstances in light of the doors that

6 they've opened and in light of the cross-examination, based on the doors

7 that they've opened in their direct examination, I think it's only fair.

8 And it comes under the rule of completeness, in my opinion, because all of

9 these statements are a continuation and one witness contradicts another

10 witness and it goes through a critical element of the Defence.

11 Here we have something that was provided to us by the Office of

12 the Prosecution just recently, and based on that we are reacting. And I

13 think it's only fair, and I don't believe that my earlier comment was an

14 attack on the Prosecution. I just find it difficult to understand why

15 they don't want the Trial Chamber to have that piece of document to factor

16 it in along with all the other documents. Thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, after consultations with my colleagues, this

19 Bench reached the following conclusions: As for the previous statement of

20 this witness, as a principle, is not admitted, because we have this

21 witness testified live before this Tribunal. As for the Witness K, or

22 63's statement, this Trial Chamber arrived at the following conclusions:

23 That we'll admit it into the evidence because we believe that this piece

24 of the evidence is a critical element in the Defence case. It is so

25 decided.

Page 1256

1 Witness, thank you very much for coming here to give your

2 evidence. We all wish you good luck in your future. Madam Usher will

3 show you out of the room after she pulls down the shields.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. The witness is -- the

5 greatest witness in Potocari is the cemetery. Those dead people were not

6 killed by any natural disasters. The cemetery is the greatest witness of

7 all.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Please accept our sympathy to you and what

9 you suffered during that period. We all wish you a good journey back

10 home. You may go now.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, there's still about 10 minutes left. Are we

14 going to hear the next witness or we wait until tomorrow morning? Yes,

15 Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I think it would be better if we

17 wait. There may still be some issues with the Appellate Chamber and

18 protective measures which I think are -- will be resolved, I hope, by

19 tomorrow.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

21 Any objections or comments?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections or comments, but on the record I

23 guess I should tender the document. I don't know how -- the one that

24 you've just allowed to come in, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You made several copies; right?

Page 1257


2 JUDGE LIU: Furnish it to the parties and to the registrar and ask

3 her for a number on it.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Absolutely, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: You're welcome.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I would let you know: We do have

9 two more witnesses from Bosnia, but after that we don't have any. We had

10 four planned for this short week, and we have been a little surprised,

11 pleasantly so, by the length of the testimony, so we may not be able to

12 finish up the time. We're trying to find other folks, but it doesn't look

13 like there's anyone that will be available, and so we do have these two

14 witnesses only.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, so you plan to have the two witnesses tomorrow?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: That would be great, yes. That -- and given the

17 way things went today, that is -- may be possible.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, if you don't have any witness available for this

19 week after the two witnesses, maybe on Wednesday we could break.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: That would be fine with the Prosecution.

21 JUDGE LIU: And Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any objections for us

22 to stop here?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour. We

24 prepared for the other two witnesses because yesterday we got the

25 information about the witnesses and that they would appear this week, so

Page 1258

1 this is fine with us. Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So the hearing is adjourned

3 until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.34 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of

6 July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.