<Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2659

1 Tuesday, 7 October 2003

2 [The accused entered court]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Call the case,

6 please, Mr. Court deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-02-60-T, Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Before the cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas, is there

10 anything that the parties would like to bring to the attention of this

11 Bench? Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

12 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning. I wanted to ask

13 permission from the Trial Chamber, in the cross-examination, I intend to

14 use an exhibit which represents the model of the Zvornik Brigade

15 headquarters from Zvornik in 1995, and so, as not to surprise the witness,

16 at the break, I've spoken to security and they said they could take the

17 model down to a cell to have him look at it or they could have it in the

18 courtroom but I'd like him to have an opportunity to look at the model

19 with his counsel before it's used in cross-examination today. If I could

20 have your permission.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, any objections?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. We spoke about that. It seems

23 fine. I would like to be present also. I don't need to -- shouldn't need

24 to say anything but just would like to be present to see the model.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 2660

1 MS. SINATRA: Mr. McCloskey is invited also, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So your application is

3 permitted, is granted.

4 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

5 JUDGE LIU: And I think this kind of practice should be

6 encouraged, so that to save time during the courtroom.

7 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Yes, Mr. Karnavas. Are you ready for the cross-examination?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I am. Good morning, Mr. President, Your

11 Honours.

12 WITNESS: DRAGAN OBRENOVIC [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Obrenovic.

16 A. Good morning, Mr. Karnavas.

17 Q. If we could pick up where we left off yesterday. We were talking

18 a little bit about the -- on the 13th and going into the 14th, where you

19 at the time had a lack of proper intelligence information with respect to

20 the 28th Division. So I'm focusing you there.

21 You had indicated, as I recall, that you had made -- you had

22 placed a call to General Zivanovic, expressing your concerns, and also

23 alerting him to this looming problem that was headed your way; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas. As I've already said, as I already told

Page 2661

1 Mr. McCloskey, on the evening of the 13th, and I think the conversation

2 was recorded, called General Zivanovic up and said that my ambush men had

3 seen a column which was over three kilometres long.

4 Q. And I also showed you an order, if you recall, by the Drina Corps,

5 asking the Bratunac Brigade, the Milici and Skelani Brigade to search the

6 terrain. Do you recall that?

7 A. Yes, I do recall that.

8 Q. And during this period of time, while you were making this phone

9 call, alerting General Zivanovic, who at the time - correct me if I'm

10 wrong - you believed to be the commander of the Drina Corps, your

11 commander, Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, was on a mission in the opposite

12 direction, towards Zepa. Am I correct in stating that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, I showed you yesterday the Drina Corps' order dated July 2nd,

15 1995, upon which the Zvornik order was constructed, also dated July 2nd,

16 1995. Do you recall that?

17 A. You showed us those papers yesterday.

18 Q. And as I understand your testimony and correct me if I'm

19 wrong - that when Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic drafted his order, he in

20 essence, gave himself more of a role than was actually required of him

21 under that particular order, and by that I mean he actually took almost

22 two full battalions, or composed two full battalions, to head off for

23 Srebrenica, whereas the order itself that came from the Drina Corps

24 required a lesser role, a smaller unit, if we could term it -- put it in

25 those terms. Am I correct?

Page 2662

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Am I also not correct, Mr. Obrenovic, that Lieutenant Colonel

3 Pandurevic, when he went off to Srebrenica with those two, in essence, you

4 know, battalions, one of which comprised of the Drina Wolves, is it not

5 also a fact that he took a great deal of the resources, vital resources,

6 from the Zvornik Brigade, communications, the best armament, the best

7 equipment available to the Drina Corps, in order for him to have his,

8 shall we say, A-team be engaged in this attack against Srebrenica?

9 A. Mr. Karnavas, might I just make a brief explanation with that

10 regard?

11 Q. Absolutely.

12 A. It is correct that in the written order signed by

13 General Zivanovic, the Drina Corps to the Zvornik Brigade, it did state

14 that he should set a column of the strength of about 400 men, which would

15 be equivalent to a light brigade. But Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic

16 formed a tactical group, and yesterday you showed us the order to that

17 effect, and it was something Mr. McCloskey asked me about. That tactical

18 group, according to his decision, had two combat groups. One combat

19 group, as you rightly said, was the battalion of the Drina Wolves, or the

20 Special Forces of the Drina Detachment of the Zvornik Brigade, and the

21 second combat group, Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic set up by taking men

22 from all our battalions and took an intervention platoon, making up two

23 companies under the command of the 1st Battalion, Lieutenant Stanojevic.

24 And you're quite right, he took all of the available men in the Zvornik

25 Brigade important for battle. And it is also correct that there was

Page 2663

1 artillery support, communications support, and an armoured, or rather a

2 tank platoon and a plank of self-propelled canons. And it says this in

3 the order.

4 On the 3rd, in the morning, I made a remark to Lieutenant Colonel

5 Pandurevic - I'm not quite sure of the date. I think it was the morning

6 of the 3rd - and I asked him what's the Zvornik Brigade going to defend

7 itself with, the 2nd Corps of it? And he said that everything was within

8 a radius of one hour's distance. And the 2nd Corps wouldn't be able to do

9 anything significant anyway until the units returned.

10 So it was with this idea that those forces were deployed towards

11 Srebrenica.

12 Q. Okay. Now, if I can return slightly back to our conversation that

13 we had yesterday with respect to the lines that were divided, the

14 Republika Srpska from the BiH, where the 2nd Corps was and where the

15 Zvornik Brigade was. Do you recall that conversation where you

16 demonstrated on the map where the line was?

17 A. I think I remember it, yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now, I want us to all try to visualise what was going on

19 during those days. Prior to the attack on Srebrenica, and prior to the

20 advancement of the 28th Division, would I be correct in stating that your

21 forces, that is, the Zvornik Brigade forces, were facing, in essence, the

22 2nd Corps? In other words, you had the 2nd Corps looking at you, you, on

23 the other hand, facing the 2nd Corps, and so that was your line of

24 defence. Because in your rear was the Republika Srpska, and, of course,

25 you didn't have to worry about the municipality of Zvornik, and across the

Page 2664

1 Drina River you had Serbia; right? Am I correct? And I know I'm

2 generalising a little bit.

3 A. In general terms, yes. Across from the Zvornik Brigade wasn't the

4 entire 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but two of their

5 divisions, if I remember correctly. I think it was the 24th and 25th, in

6 actual fact. So not the entire corps, but significant forces, significant

7 manpower, and the ratio was 1 and a half to 1, compared to us. We had a

8 little more technical equipment, but they were far numerous compared to

9 the Zvornik Brigade.

10 Q. All right. But if I could just make sure that I have it

11 correctly. Your forces, though, were facing in that direction, towards

12 the 2nd Corps, as they were facing you. That was where your troops had

13 been stationed for quite a long time, years, in fact?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So now with the 28th Division coming up from the Srebrenica area,

16 passing between the Milici and the Bratunac Brigade, would it be correct

17 in stating that now your troops, the Zvornik Brigade, not only had to

18 defend itself against the 2nd Corps, but now on their rear side, their

19 backs or their sides, was coming the 28th, so now you more or less had a

20 two-front defence, if I may put it in those sort of crude terms.

21 A. Yes. I think that that kind of battle is called a strike

22 manoeuvre from the rear and that is one of the most difficult ways in

23 which you can enter into combat.

24 Q. And I take it during -- as we indicated, Lieutenant Colonel

25 Pandurevic has taken quite a bit of the resources, he's taken some of the

Page 2665

1 best fighting men, including the Drina Wolves, probably not anticipating

2 anything of the sort would happen, and here you are now having to

3 manoeuvre your troops so they can cover the 2nd Corps and also they have

4 to manoeuvre around and be prepared for the advancing 28 Division, the

5 numbers of which you are unclear of, all way up until perhaps as late as

6 the 14th or the 15th?

7 A. I realise the situation was serious on the 13th, in the evening,

8 when I saw the column that was three kilometres long. Then I realised

9 that the strength of the column was far greater than the 300 that had been

10 mentioned. And on the 14th, everything became absolutely clear with

11 respect to the strength of the 28th Division. I saw it with my own eyes

12 then.

13 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, I think this set of questions has been

14 asked yesterday, and I'm a little bit puzzled to see your point. I don't

15 think there's any disputes, you know, on this issue.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: There isn't a dispute. However, Your Honour, I

17 wanted to make it abundantly clear that the gentleman was facing two

18 fronts at the same time, and the lines had been there for a long time,

19 three years, and now his troops, which were reservists, were having to

20 deal with a unique situation that they totally were unprepared for. But I

21 will move on. That was the point I'm trying to make, because I'm trying

22 to establish that based on Nikolic's testimony, where everything was

23 copacetic as far as intelligence is concerned, now we're finding out,

24 contrary to what Nikolic has stated, there was a great divide as far as

25 knowledge with respect to where the 28th Division is and how large it is

Page 2666

1 and how dangerous it proved to be later on. But I will move on, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please move on.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Thank you.

5 Q. Now, we talked -- we mentioned the Drina Wolves. Just so we all

6 understand, could you give us a description of the Drina Wolves? Who were

7 they?

8 A. Mr. Karnavas, what do you want me to say? To describe them how?

9 Their establishment or what?

10 Q. What kind of a unit was it?

11 A. Establishment-wise it was the equivalent of an infantry battalion,

12 and within their composition they had the command for the detachment, or

13 manoeuvre battalion, or whatever you like to call them, and as you called

14 them, in fact, the Drina Wolves, which is what the people, local

15 inhabitants called them. Then they had communication lines and two

16 infantry companies, numbering 100 to 110 soldiers - I can't remember

17 exactly now - and they also had a mixed mortar company for support, and it

18 had 120 millimetres and 128-millimetre platoon mortars, and an armoured

19 company with a tank platoon, T-55, and armoured transporters of the M-60

20 type, and if necessary, if they needed reinforcements, a Praga would be

21 added, and a Praga platoon, and an engineers platoon. They would go with

22 them to see to the mining and so on.

23 Now, as to the basic weapons, I've already quoted some of the

24 support weaponry. They were armed with light arms, automatic rifles of

25 the standard Yugoslav-produced type. Of the protection devices, most of

Page 2667

1 the infantry men had in the infantry companies helmets, I don't know

2 exactly how many. I think they might have had 120 flak jackets,

3 protective flak jackets, and all the necessary communication devices. They

4 had a lot of combat experience. They were a very good combat unit, very

5 well trained and capable.

6 The command of the Drina Corps saw this detachment or battalion

7 for what it was and used it frequently, and it would be out of Zvornik

8 acting as a reserve for the Drina Corps. But it was within the

9 composition of the Zvornik Brigade itself, in actual fact.

10 Q. Can we conclude that it was -- that it was well known within the

11 Drina Corps who this fighting unit was and their fighting capabilities?

12 Did they have a reputation, in other words? That's what I'm trying to ...

13 A. The corps commander knew that. It was a highly disciplined unit

14 which listened to orders. It wasn't some sort of paramilitary unit, if

15 that's what you had in mind.

16 Q. No. No. No. Well, would other brigades, for instance, know of

17 their reputation? Say, your neighbour, the Bratunac Brigade, would

18 someone like the chief of intelligence and security know of the quality

19 and fighting capabilities of the Drina Wolves, particularly given what you

20 stated, that they were used outside the Zvornik area by the corps?

21 A. Well, Mr. Karnavas, it's difficult for me to say who knew what,

22 but they could have known, yes. They had to have known.

23 Q. Their commander was a gentleman by the name of -- or he had a

24 nickname, Legenda. Is that -- am I correct?

25 A. Yes. At that time, Captain First Class Milan Jolovic, on the

Page 2668

1 radio communication device, his code-name was Legenda, and so the nickname

2 stuck, and people called him that. But that was his code-name for radio

3 communication.

4 Q. Was there a particular reason why they gave him this nickname?

5 A. I really can't say. I don't know.

6 Q. All right. As I understand it, as some point General Krstic told

7 you, on the 15th, that Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic was coming up and he

8 was bringing up the Drina Wolves with him, and I take it hearing that must

9 have brought you some relief, that help was finally on the way and that

10 the help was of sufficient calibre to repel the attack or the battles with

11 the 28th Division.

12 A. You're quite right as far as the first part of your observation

13 goes. It is true that I breathed a sigh of relief because the commander

14 was coming in and I felt some relief because the battalion of the Drina

15 Wolves was coming with the other units who were there. But I had no

16 illusions that they would be able to do anything better. I knew that the

17 28th Division was a difficult thing to come up against.

18 Q. Right. Now, and you had also requested help from the corps and at

19 some point you did receive some help, albeit rather modest, from the

20 Bratunac Brigade; am I correct?

21 A. Yes. Already on the 14th, in the morning, I started entreating

22 them for help through the radio devices and in my conversation with

23 General Krstic. I asked that reinforcements be brought in. And the first

24 reinforcements, the first help that came in, was a company of the civilian

25 police, which came from Bijeljina. But Mane Djuric, Lieutenant Colonel,

Page 2669

1 used it for the direct defence of Zvornik, contrary to my instructions.

2 Now, around noon on the 15th, when I was attending a meeting with

3 Borovcanin, Lieutenant Colonel Borovcanin, and Colonel Vasic, the first

4 unit from Bratunac turned up. They arrived. They had come from the

5 Bratunac Brigade. And somebody called me from the office, whether it was

6 the duty officer or the assistant duty officer or whoever. I left the

7 room and found three men standing there, some commanders, komandirs,

8 standing there. That was the first unit that had arrived from Bratunac,

9 in fact.

10 Q. Now, if I could show you what has been marked as D48 for

11 identification purposes, and if you could kindly look at it. And it's a

12 daily combat report prepared by the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade. And

13 if you would look, just focus on more or less the first two paragraphs.

14 The first paragraph, paragraph number 2. Just give that a quick glance.

15 And I'm more interested in paragraph 2, the last part of that particular

16 paragraph, where it describes some soldiers being sent.

17 A. I've read those two paragraphs.

18 Q. And would that be more or less consistent with your recollection

19 of the events, what's in this particular daily combat report?

20 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas. I told Mr. McCloskey 50 to 60 soldiers. It

21 says 60 here.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. So I didn't remember the exact figure, but they did arrive,

24 probably around noon, 12.00. They arrived in Zvornik, or perhaps a little

25 before that.

Page 2670

1 Q. Okay. And that was on the 15th?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. And I think -- I believe, if I could just show you also what has

4 been marked for identification purposes as P134. It's a -- the

5 Prosecution has titled it: "Barrack duty officer logbook". I believe

6 this was shown to you yesterday. It's dated 15/16. And over here it

7 seems to indicate it was 10.00 in the morning, and that would have been on

8 the 15th. Am I correct?

9 A. Mr. Karnavas, this is a copy of a page from the duty shift

10 officers in the barracks for the 15th and 16th of July, 1995, and the man

11 in charge was Cvijetin Micic. I don't see when this was written exactly.

12 It might have been written during the day or perhaps even on the 16th.

13 Q. All right. And then of course there's another one with that in

14 this particular attachment. I think it's page 8 in the English version.

15 And it's dated 16/17, and there it says 40 men who were not members of the

16 Zvornik Brigade stayed overnight. Were those men the men from the

17 Bratunac Brigade, by any chance? If you can recall, or if you know.

18 A. Yes. It was a platoon. I remember about 30 men. Possibly it was

19 40, 30 or 40, anyway.

20 Q. All right. And if I could show what has been marked as D49 for

21 identification purposes. And if you could look at paragraph number 2,

22 just the first part, the first sentence of that paragraph. And this is an

23 interim combat report from the Zvornik Brigade, and it's dated 16 July

24 1995.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me.

Page 2671

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Would it be possible to get the English on the

3 ELMO so that this can be made more public?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

6 Q. Now, is this -- the hundred men that came from the Bratunac, is

7 this -- are these the men that came on the 16th, the 15th, or are we

8 talking about both days? Because I believe that there were two groups

9 that came, one on the 15th and then, later on, on the 16th.

10 A. Yes. In paragraph 2, it says our forces, and then it goes on to

11 say the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, a company of the Ministry of the

12 Interior of a hundred men, two platoons from the Bratunac Infantry

13 Brigade. I think that the hundred men refers to the MUP company. And

14 then part of the military police platoon from the Eastern Bosnia Corps.

15 Yes, you are right. Although it says here that there were two platoons,

16 it was actually 50 to 60 who arrived. As I said, we see here that

17 Colonel Blagojevic said 60. That was around the 15th around noon and they

18 were sent to Baljkovica straight away. After the 16th, another platoon

19 arrived; I don't know whether it had 30 or 40 men. It doesn't matter. But

20 they spent the night at the Standard barracks, and on the following day

21 they were joined to the group that had arrived on the 15th, after the

22 fighting. And together with our R Battalion, they were deployed on the

23 Zvornik-Crni Vrh Road.

24 Q. That's what I'm going to get to. Now, I take it when the troops

25 arrived from the Bratunac Brigade and they check in with you, at that

Page 2672

1 point I believe you indicated they are under your command. Am I correct?

2 A. Yes. The first group, 50 or 60 men.

3 Q. When the second group arrives as well, when they check in, can we

4 assume that now they're under the command of the commander of the Zvornik

5 Brigade, whoever is in command at that particular moment, be it the

6 commander or the acting commander?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: There are several terms. There's acting

10 commander, there's deputy commander, there's commander, and interchanging

11 them as if they have no consequence.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: In this particular case they have no consequence

14 because the gentleman, Mr. Obrenovic, was in fact in command. Now, we can

15 ask him whether he was the deputy commander or the acting commander while

16 Mr. -- Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic was away. But in essence, you know,

17 my point is: When these troops check in with the Zvornik Brigade, be it

18 on the 15th or the 16th, are they not under the command of whoever is

19 commanding the Zvornik Brigade?

20 A. Yes, they were.

21 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to use a technical term. Maybe you can

22 help us out here. Subordination. All right. Were they subordinated,

23 once they check in, they come under your command, are they subordinated to

24 you? So help me out here.

25 A. Mr. Karnavas, the first group that arrived on the 15th, at the

Page 2673

1 time of their arrival, I was the deputy commander, and commanding that

2 part of our units in Zvornik, they came under my command. The second

3 group that we have just mentioned, which arrived on the 16th, the

4 commander was already there, and he commanded both those men and the other

5 units as well.

6 Q. Okay. Now, a little more broader. Are those troops now from the

7 Bratunac Brigade, are they subordinated to the Zvornik Brigade? Is that

8 the correct term? And if not, help us out.

9 A. Yes, the ones we are talking about now. Yes, they were.

10 Q. All right. Now, if you could help us out here a little bit. On

11 the 15th, when they were under your command, that group, how did you

12 position that unit from the Bratunac Brigade? Where did you position them

13 and how did you use them? I guess that's what I'm trying to get at.

14 A. Mr. Karnavas, as I have already described, with three of their

15 commanding officers I had a meeting in the operations room of our brigade

16 command, and one of them said that under orders from Colonel Blagojevic,

17 he was putting them at our disposal. He told me how many of them there

18 were, what weapons they had. And then I informed them, briefly, about the

19 28th Division, at least what I knew about it. I said that this was an

20 enormous force divided into three groups, consisting of 2.000 men each,

21 and that the most dangerous group was the one that was breaking through,

22 that they were destroying everything in front of them. And I was sending

23 them to Baljkovica, to the command of the 4th Battalion, and the acting

24 commander there, because the commander was away, would give them their

25 combat tasks in fighting the 28th Division. I assigned a courier to take

Page 2674

1 them there, and that was it.

2 Later, on the 15th, in the afternoon, when I came to the 4th

3 Battalion in the Baljkovica area, I felt that the deputy commander had

4 deployed them in a wrong way. He had made them face north, in the wrong

5 direction. I altered his decision and I ordered that this unit be moved

6 and that they take up positions above us on a hill at Baljkovica, facing

7 the south-west. They grumbled, but they obeyed the order, and they took

8 up those positions facing the 28th Division.

9 Q. Okay. Now, just a very direct question: Did you ever order any

10 of those men to commit any atrocities, anybody that came from the Bratunac

11 Brigade?

12 A. No, Mr. Karnavas. I have just told you what orders I gave, and

13 that was all. Perhaps in Baljkovica I may have issued additional orders

14 about opening fire when the fighting began in the late evening of the

15 15th. Later on they switched off their radio sets and got lost in the

16 woods and we thought they had been taken prisoner. We only found them on

17 the 16th, in the evening. Until that point in time, we considered them

18 missing.

19 Q. I guess my question was, you know, you didn't task them to do

20 anything improper?

21 A. No, no. I've already said I didn't.

22 Q. All right. Now, the second group, do you know how they were

23 tasked by Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, if they were tasked at all?

24 A. Mr. Karnavas, what I know is that they were attached on the 17th,

25 in the morning, to the first group in Orahovac, and then I helped in their

Page 2675

1 deployment and the deployment of other units on the Zvornik-Crni Vrh road.

2 Before that, I don't know what orders they received from

3 Commander Pandurevic.

4 Q. And again, the tasks that at least you were involved with, were

5 those proper military tasks, consistent with the situation on the ground

6 and the request that you had made to the Bratunac Brigade pursuant to what

7 had been happening between the Zvornik Brigade and the 28th Division?

8 A. Mr. Karnavas, there are several questions here. First of all, I

9 made no request of the Bratunac Brigade. My requests were sent to the

10 corps command, and it was they who decided whether to send the

11 Bratunac Brigade or somebody else. It was the Bratunac Brigade that

12 turned up, so they sent them.

13 As to the second part of your question, I repeat again: As for

14 the two units from Bratunac, the first which arrived on the 15th, I gave

15 them exclusively combat tasks, nothing criminal. The second unit which

16 arrived on the 16th, I had nothing to do with them until they turned up in

17 Orahovac on the 17th, and that was the first time I gave them concrete

18 tasks about taking positions on that road. So again, it was a combat task

19 I gave them, and nothing connected with any crimes.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you. And I'm not insinuating that you did. I just

21 want to make sure that I'm clear -- we have a clear record.

22 Now, I want to turn our attention to what has been marked as P129

23 for identification purposes. We touched upon it a little bit yesterday,

24 but I want to go into it a little bit more and try to put this matter to

25 rest, if we can. P129. This is an intercept, and it's dated July 16,

Page 2676

1 1995. If you could look at it. I believe, Mr. President, that we may

2 have an objection.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

4 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. The Defence for Mr. Jokic objects

5 to the admission of any of the intercepts which were gathered by the OTP

6 from the Army of the BiH. This represents one of those documents gathered

7 from the Muslim army, and we believe that they are unreliable. Their

8 reliability will be questioned completely. And therefore, it should be

9 inadmissible. We just would like -- this is -- if one is allowed to be

10 admissible, then they all would be allowed to be admissible, and our

11 objection is that they -- none of the intercepts are admissible, due to

12 lack of foundation and lack of reliability.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much to make your position once again

14 very clearly, and I think we have made a ruling that at this stage we are

15 not talking about the admission of the documents. We are talking about

16 the using of these documents. Later on we'll discuss the matter whether

17 those documents are admissible or not, depending on whether the

18 Prosecution, I guess, is going to tender those documents into evidence or

19 not. The admission, I think in the different jurisdictions has different

20 meaning. Using the document, in my understanding, is not thought of as

21 admission. But anyway, we'll bear in mind your objections, Ms. Sinatra.

22 Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. And for the record, I don't intend to

24 admit this, but I do wish the record to reflect that this was indeed

25 admitted, or -- and relied upon in the Krstic judgement, at a time when

Page 2677

1 perhaps there was some lack of clarity as far as one particular issue in

2 this particular intercept.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would debate the Krstic judgement and how it

5 used that, Your Honour, so I don't think that's appropriate at this point,

6 these sorts of comments.

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, I think the first part of your statement

8 is relevant. You're informing us that this part of the document is

9 admitted. I think that's enough. Here we are not sitting in Mr. Krstic's

10 case, you know. There's no need. But of course if you have some doubts,

11 if you have something that you want to clear up --

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: -- You may do that.

14 MR. KARNAVAS:

15 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Obrenovic, have you had a chance to look at it?

16 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

17 Q. Now, I'm primarily interested in discussing the issue with respect

18 to anything coming from Blagojevic, anything being received from

19 Blagojevic, that section of the intercept. And if I could just read it

20 and then maybe we could have a little discussion. The question is:

21 "Tell me, did anything arrive there now from Vidoje Blagojevic?"

22 "From Vidoje?"

23 "Today."

24 "Yes... You mean manpower."

25 "Yes, yes... Did anything arrive? Something was supposed to

Page 2678

1 arrive."

2 "Yes, it arrived... It's up there. It's up there, but it didn't

3 arrive on time, and it wasn't brought in on time. And the others who

4 arrived did arrive, but they were late, so they weren't brought in on time

5 and that's why the commander who was here had problems."

6 "When exactly did Blagojevic men arrive?"

7 There's an expletive. "I don't know exactly, now I can't..."

8 "I know the duty officer..."

9 "Maybe the duty officer... Here's the duty officer."

10 "Let me talk to him."

11 And then it goes on.

12 Now, I'm particularly interested in the phrase "up there." "It

13 arrived -- it's up there." Now, as I understand it, as I understand it,

14 in the context in which this is being referred to, up there doesn't mean

15 north, does it, as in Pilica?

16 A. If you expect me to give you my opinion, my interpretation of what

17 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic meant by this, I've already stated my opinion.

18 I think he's referring to Baljkovica on the area of the 4th Battalion,

19 where the fighting was taking place.

20 Q. Is that up on a hill? Is that up there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you say "up there," isn't that the way that you would say it

23 in Srpski to refer to up there meaning the hill up there where the

24 fighting was going on? Is that as opposed to up there meaning in a

25 direction of north?

Page 2679

1 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas. "Up there" means the hill in Baljkovica. If

2 he had wanted to mention Pilica, he would have said "down there," because

3 the Drina flows downwards towards Pilica. In my view, he's suggesting "up

4 there," meaning Baljkovica.

5 Q. All right. And as far as you know, as far as you recollect, were

6 any men sent by you or Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic to Pilica at any time

7 to participate in anything that went on there on that particular day?

8 A. Mr. Karnavas, I didn't send anyone to Pilica. Whether Lieutenant

9 Colonel Pandurevic sent anyone there, I wouldn't know exactly.

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2680

1 Secondly, I was entreating them to send reinforcements and to send

2 him back. That would have been completely illogical. I don't know why he

3 said that. He may have been mistaken in the date. I don't know. I can't

4 interpret his view.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

6 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I believe that this is one of the

7 witnesses that was marked as P141, as we discussed the other day with

8 Mr. McCloskey.

9 JUDGE LIU: You mean that he's a protected witness?

10 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll have that part redacted.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise. I wasn't aware that that was the

13 case.

14 Q. Okay. Now, I want to focus our attention to the night of the

15 13th, and in particular, the situation with Drago Nikolic and yourself,

16 okay? As I understand it, sometime late in the evening on the 13th, you

17 receive a call from Drago Nikolic from where he was stationed, and I think

18 he was in the forward command post, if I'm not mistaken.

19 A. Yes. He was on duty at Kitovnica, the forward command post there.

20 Q. And where were you when you received the call? Were you in the

21 command post?

22 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas. I was in my office, the office of the Chief of

23 Staff in the command of the Zvornik Brigade.

24 Q. Okay. And this conversation took place -- I'm drawing a blank

25 right now. What was the exact -- what was the time about when he called

Page 2681

1 you? Was it 8.00 or 9.00, somewhere around there? I just don't recall

2 right now.

3 A. I said it was on the 13th, in the evening, but it's hard to

4 determine the exact time. Probably between 1900 and 2000 hours. In any

5 case, before I called General Zivanovic about the column. A little while

6 after this, I called Zivanovic to tell him we saw a big column. So that

7 can be a point in time that we could use for orientation.

8 Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, he initially informs you of

9 part of the message that he's received from Lieutenant Colonel Popovic of

10 the Drina Corps security sector, or security organ. Am I correct?

11 A. Yes. As I said, he told me that he had just received a call from

12 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. He didn't tell me he had called him from the

13 Drina Corps command, or where he had called him from. He just told me

14 that he had received a call from Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, and of course

15 I knew what duty Popovic was performing.

16 Q. And but initially, he didn't tell you anything about -- well,

17 initially, as I understand your testimony, he just said that Popovic had

18 informed him that large numbers of prisoners would be heading your way

19 into Zvornik. Is that correct?

20 A. Not that they would be heading, but that they would be brought

21 there.

22 Q. Okay. All right. They would be brought there. All right. And

23 upon hearing that news, particularly given the situation on the ground,

24 that's when you reacted by questioning him about this information; is that

25 correct?

Page 2682

1 A. Yes. I have already explained this to Mr. McCloskey.

2 Q. I'm trying to lay the groundwork, you know. Just "polako,

3 polako." All right. So now, and when you press him, that's when he, as I

4 understand it, Nikolic tells you that the decision has been -- a decision

5 was made or an order, or Mladic issued the order to kill all of them; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And he also says that everyone knows about it, including the

9 commander?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I take it this was a rather brief conversation.

12 A. It was brief, yes. It just consisted of what I mentioned.

13 Q. All right. Now, before we dissect that information, let's talk a

14 little bit about what was happening with you. You had been up for quite

15 some time, had you not, the 11th, the 12th -- or the 12th and the 13th?

16 So can we say -- is it fair to say that by this point of the day or the

17 evening on the 13th, you were somewhat fatigued, tired, sleep deprived?

18 A. Yes. To be quite precise, on the 12th I was woken up early in the

19 morning. I didn't sleep a wink the night between the 12th and the 13th,

20 and I've already mentioned that I had been on sick leave and that I was

21 still limping. I was already exhausted then, yes.

22 Q. And apparently, after hearing this news, you didn't contact your

23 own commander to try to check out this information that you had received.

24 I'm wondering, might it be because of the fatigue factor, along with

25 perhaps Nikolic's representation that Mladic had issued the order?

Page 2683

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objecting to the multiple-part question, Your

3 Honour. This is an important area and -- the witness should not have to

4 dissect each part of a question.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, with all due respect to

7 Mr. McCloskey, the gentleman, Mr. Obrenovic, seems to be doing quite well.

8 But I will --

9 JUDGE LIU: I think it's obvious you could split your question

10 into two parts.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. I will do that. I'm trying to be efficient,

12 Your Honour, but obviously I'm --

13 JUDGE LIU: The most efficient way is to ask a very short and

14 direct question to this witness.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right, Your Honour. I'll try that

16 method. All right.

17 Q. After receiving the call -- or during the call, you did not ask

18 Nikolic whether he had in fact spoken with anyone else to verify the

19 information that he was receiving from Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, did

20 you?

21 A. I did not ask him whether he had talked to anyone else, no.

22 Q. And after hearing that information, you did not contact Lieutenant

23 Colonel Pandurevic to check out that information to see whether in fact

24 that was correct, that is, that everybody knows, including the commander

25 part?

Page 2684

1 A. You're right. I didn't. I didn't call Lieutenant Colonel

2 Pandurevic. I believed Nikolic.

3 Q. You didn't call -- well, when you did call General Zivanovic, who

4 at the time you believed would still be the commander of the Drina Corps,

5 you did not question him about this information that you had received from

6 your lieutenant, I think first class, Nikolic.

7 A. He was a lieutenant first class, and I did not inform

8 General Zivanovic about what Nikolic had told me.

9 Q. Would it be fair to say that -- I don't know what the reason is.

10 It could be fatigue. But it seems to be that you did nothing to verify

11 whether in fact the information that Nikolic was giving you and I'm

12 particularly focusing on that everybody knows, including the commander

13 part - that that information was true, accurate, and complete?

14 A. I did not.

15 Q. And so as you sit here today, there's nothing concretely that you

16 can point out to that would at least give us some indication that Popovic

17 did in fact tell Nikolic that everybody knows, including your commander?

18 There's nothing that we can point to?

19 A. No, except for the fact what Drago Nikolic told me.

20 Q. Right. And -- well, we do know one thing about Drago Nikolic. As

21 the days would progress, he proved to be a rather enthusiastic participant

22 in the events.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. There's no sense in trying to help him out. And so

25 there's no way of knowing whether that part of the information that

Page 2685

1 Nikolic was giving you wasn't in fact something that he had made up, given

2 that he seemed, at least in retrospect now, to have this predilection,

3 this predisposition, against Muslims?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I would request that the last remark

6 by Mr. Karnavas be struck from the record. We don't -- this witness is

7 here to tell the truth, not to help someone out or, as the inference may

8 be left, to harm someone. And so that kind of comment I wish we could

9 strike from the record.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think your question has got a

12 point, but there's a lot of unnecessary comments, you know, there. You

13 don't need those comments to gain your purpose, you know, by asking

14 questions.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

16 Q. Did -- let's let it to rest. Did your intelligence -- or security

17 officer, Drago Nikolic, participate in killings personally?

18 A. Mr. Karnavas, Drago Nikolic was not an intelligence officer. He

19 was the chief of security and also assistant to the commander of the

20 Zvornik Brigade for security. And as I've already said, Baljkovica, on

21 the 15th, in the afternoon, I learnt that, yes, that was so.

22 Q. Yes. He killed. It wasn't that he just merely ordered; he

23 participated in killing innocent, harmless, human beings. Let's call it

24 for what it is. Isn't that a fact?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2686

1 Q. And the only difference between him and them is that they happened

2 to be Muslim and he happened to be something other than Muslim?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Now, also, there is nothing from which you can look at

5 or we can look at today that would verify whether in fact what Popovic was

6 telling Nikolic was correct, if indeed, if indeed, Popovic told Nikolic:

7 "Everybody knows about it, including your commander," that part.

8 A. I'm not quite sure I understand your question.

9 Q. Okay. Well, you never called Popovic.

10 A. Not at that period of time. Perhaps before or afterwards, but

11 during that particular period, no, I did not.

12 Q. You're in the eye of the storm. You're asking for help. You're

13 reaching out to General Zivanovic because you need assistance to repel the

14 28th Division that is heading your way; correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. But when Nikolic gives you this information, which obviously, at

17 least -- maybe it wasn't quite clear to you at that point, but obviously

18 was going to consume a certain amount of your resources, you didn't reach

19 out to call Popovic to verify whether in fact the information he had given

20 to Nikolic was correct, particularly the part: Everybody knows about it,

21 including the commander. That part.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. This has been established

23 three times. At this point I think it becomes a harassment of the

24 witness.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: First of all, Your Honour, it seems -- I find it

Page 2687

1 supremely ironic that the Prosecutor jumps up and objects at the moment

2 when I'm trying to make a point. We established the fact that from

3 Nikolic's point of view we cannot verify it. Now the question is on

4 Popovic, because we don't know whether the conversation between Popovic

5 was -- what it was. Did Popovic in fact say to Nikolic ...

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, the witness I think has answered this question,

7 that he did not call Mr. Popovic at that time.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: And there's no way of verifying whether in fact

9 Popovic had told Nikolic, on the night of the 13th: Everybody knows about

10 it, including the commander. That part.

11 A. I don't know whether anything exists, but what I knew, I said.

12 Nikolic -- Drago Nikolic conveyed that to me, and to the best of my

13 recollections, I told you what he told me.

14 Q. And you assumed, when he told you this, that everybody must know

15 about it; right?

16 A. Yes. I believed him, because he said that he was expecting a man

17 to turn up who would inform him of the details in due course.

18 Q. Well, what I'm particularly focusing on the "everybody knew about

19 it, including the commander," that part, because it seems rather peculiar,

20 under the circumstances, that you would not reach out to try to locate

21 your commander. So obviously you must have believed him and then maybe

22 with the fatigue factor decided there's nothing more you can do, it's a

23 fait accompli?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the form of the question. It was a

Page 2688

1 statement, it had six parts in it, and it's not helpful.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I agree with you that it's a compound question,

3 but there's a point in this question.

4 Maybe, Mr. Karnavas, you could rephrase your question.

5 MR. KARNAVAS:

6 Q. You never checked that information to see whether the "everybody

7 knows, including the commander" is actually a fact; that you never

8 checked.

9 A. I did not check, no.

10 Q. Now, the next thing you did do is provide some assistance in this

11 operation that you had learned from your security -- your chief of

12 security?

13 A. I said that. I said what my assistance consisted of.

14 Q. Right. And we're going to talk a little bit about that, but not

15 so much as to what the assistance was. But I do want to discuss how you

16 deployed your military police prior to this. But before we get there, I

17 want to show you a document, and it's been marked for identification

18 purposes as D50. It's an interim combat report that was prepared by

19 Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic. And the areas that I wish to focus on are

20 on the second page, and the last two paragraphs, and going into the third

21 page. But in Srpski, I believe, it's page number 3. I think it would

22 begin with the second paragraph up there. But if you could look at that

23 and the paragraph number 4, and if we can just discuss that for a second.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, in keeping with our normal practice,

25 I believe -- I mean, I don't --

Page 2689

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: I will need more. I need several minutes for this,

3 so I would rather --

4 JUDGE LIU: Would you please indicate how much time you still need

5 to finish your cross-examination.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Oh, cross-examination?

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: The entire cross?

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I'm moving at a good clip, Your Honour, as

11 you can see.

12 JUDGE LIU: Of course.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: And so probably the whole day. Well, it might be

14 shorter. It might be shorter, but I don't want to box myself in to a

15 particular time frame. But I will try to be as efficient as I possibly

16 can, and I'll try to wrap it up by lunch-time. But I cannot guarantee

17 that.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, make your best efforts.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I am.

20 JUDGE LIU: -- To finish it before the lunch-time.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I am, Your Honour. I am.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll have a break. We'll resume at a quarter

23 to 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

Page 2690

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

2 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, we just have one matter to bring to the

3 attention of the Trial Chamber, and in the form of a request. I have

4 asked Mr. McCloskey if we could be provided a copy of the Obrenovic

5 sentencing memorandum before I cross-examine Mr. Obrenovic. It was filed

6 confidentially. We have not been provided a copy. I think it is very

7 relevant and we would like to request the Court to go under the

8 confidentiality ruling. We are all officers of the Court and we have

9 signed a promise of confidentiality, but we would like to look at the

10 sentencing memorandum before cross-examination of the witness.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, do you want to have a response?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I was just requested this a few

13 minutes ago, and I really -- it's hard for me to respond at this point. I

14 would like to review what was said, discuss with counsel. Fundamentally,

15 I don't know if there's any big problem, but I think it bears a review.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. For the record, we were

18 provided, upon our request, the Nikolic sentencing memorandum, so I do

19 believe that in all fairness, the Jokic team should be entitled to that as

20 well. So I just wanted to point that out when the Court makes its ruling.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, Ms. Sinatra, you asked for that you

22 be provided with that sentencing filings before your cross-examination,

23 which means today. Am I right?

24 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, I believe so.

25 JUDGE LIU: So long as we've got your promise of the

Page 2691

1 confidentiality, so long as we've got your promise of the confidentiality,

2 I believe you'll be provided a copy of that document.

3 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. We signed those documents with

4 the Prosecution at the beginning of the case, and I am an officer of the

5 Court.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: So this document could be provided during the break.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

13 Q. Mr. Obrenovic, I'm told that -- maybe you have your speakers on

14 too high. Your listening, there might be a -- for the translators, you

15 may want to tune it down a bit, because there's an echo apparently.

16 Okay. Now, we left off where I had provided you for your review

17 what has been marked as D50 for identification purposes. Have you had a

18 chance to look at it, Mr. Obrenovic?

19 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas, I have.

20 Q. All right. And --

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, I believe Ms. Sinatra may wish to

22 object.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

24 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I wish to object to this document

25 on the grounds of lack of authenticity. It was translated from

Page 2692

1 handwritten notes which have not been verified as being

2 Commander Pandurevic's handwriting at this point.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, since this document is introduced by

4 Mr. Karnavas, Mr. Karnavas, can you shed some light on that?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the light I could possibly shed is that, one,

6 I received this document from the Prosecution, I received the translation

7 from the Prosecution. From my understanding, it appears to be an accurate

8 document, an authentic document, and pursuant to my knowledge of the

9 events as they ensued, the document seems to be consistent with those

10 events. So I have no reason to believe that it is not authentic, but we

11 do have someone from the Zvornik Brigade. I can lay some foundational

12 questions, which I was about to, and then if Ms. Sinatra has a further

13 objection it could be noted for the record and then I could proceed with

14 my questioning.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. This document is a well-known

17 document cited by Mr. Butler. The one that I have is a typed --

18 originally typed. I do not recall if we have a handwritten version. We

19 may. But it was obtained in a search of the Zvornik Brigade, and as all

20 the indicia, reliability appropriate for use in cross-examination.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I can verify, it is typed and it's in Cyrillic,

23 actually.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

25 Ms. Sinatra, I think that, as I said before, that using a document

Page 2693

1 and admission of the document is different matters, and at this moment we

2 are going through this document, bearing in mind your objections to this

3 document. And at a later stage, if the parties would like to tender this

4 document into the evidence, at that time you have the full opportunity to

5 reiterate your objections.

6 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

8 Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Obrenovic, could you please tell us what this document

11 is.

12 A. Mr. McCloskey -- I apologise. Mr. Karnavas, I think what you have

13 supplied me with is a copy of an interim combat report from the command of

14 the infantry brigade, dated the 18th of July, 1995. There are several

15 pages to the document, three, in actual fact, and at the end it is signed

16 by Commander Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, and I would say that

17 that was initialed by him.

18 Q. All right. Now, does that mean that you recognise the initial,

19 Mr. -- Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic's?

20 A. Well, I said: It appears to be his, but I'm not ...

21 Q. All right. Now, well, would this document appear to be an

22 authentic document?

23 A. It appears to be that it is the copy of an authentic document,

24 yes.

25 Q. And it is the practice of the Zvornik Brigade, as other brigades,

Page 2694

1 to prepare interim combat reports, is it not, or was it not at the time?

2 A. The interim combat reports were sent out according to need, as the

3 name itself says, an interim.

4 Q. Right. Now, I had asked you if you could -- by the way, had you

5 ever seen this document before meeting with your lawyers? In other words,

6 did you see it at the time it was drafted, on or about the time, that is,

7 on or about July 18, 1995?

8 A. Mr. Karnavas, I don't believe I saw it on the 18th, because on the

9 18th we were -- our time was taken up with practical matters. I think I

10 saw it sometime around the 24th or after that date. Perhaps not this

11 particular document, but from the war diary and copies from that.

12 Q. Okay. Now, I'd ask you to focus on a particular section in this

13 document, and I believe, if I'm correct, it's on page 3 of your document,

14 which would be 00684886. I think that's the ERN number. And it's 2 on

15 the English version. The second-to-last paragraph begins by stating: "We

16 request that our appetites be adopted to realistic resources and

17 possibilities." Do you see that portion? The paragraph immediately above

18 paragraph number 4.

19 A. I found that sentence, yes.

20 Q. Okay. If you read that paragraph real quickly so we can discuss

21 it.

22 A. I've read it.

23 Q. Okay. This paragraph would suggest that the Zvornik Brigade had

24 been tasked to carry on combat activities to the point where perhaps their

25 resources were being stretched to the maximum. Would that be a fair

Page 2695

1 characterisation of what Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic is saying here?

2 A. Yes. From the spring of 1995, the brigade was engaged in

3 continuous combat, taking part in combat, and that's what that refers to.

4 Q. And could it possibly also refer to parts of the Zvornik Brigade,

5 the two units that he had, being immediately tasked to go towards Zepa,

6 when the situation remained fluid in the field with respect to the 28th

7 Division?

8 A. Perhaps.

9 Q. All right. Now, if we go to the next paragraph, number 4.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Do we have this on the ELMO? Okay.

11 Q. Now, it seems -- the second sentence says: "It is inconceivable

12 to me that someone brought in 3.000 Turks of military age and placed them

13 in schools in the municipality, in addition to the 7.000 or so who have

14 fled into the forest. This has created an extremely complex situation and

15 the possibility of the total occupation of Zvornik in conjunction with the

16 force at the front. These actions have stirred up great discontent among

17 the people and the general opinion is that Zvornik is to pay the price for

18 the taking of Srebrenica."

19 Now, the part that I wish to focus on is the beginning, where it

20 says: "It is inconceivable to me" - that is Lieutenant Colonel

21 Pandurevic, commander of the Zvornik Brigade - "that someone brought in

22 3.000 Turks of military age and placed them in schools in the

23 municipality," and so on and so forth. Does it not appear from this that

24 he was taken aback, he was surprised at the fact that prisoners were

25 brought into Srebrenica -- I mean into Zvornik?

Page 2696

1 A. I don't think so. It may appear that way at first glance, but

2 that wasn't the actual situation.

3 Q. All right. Let me rephrase it. From reading this sentence, it

4 says: "It is inconceivable to me that someone brought in 3.000 Turks of

5 military age and placed them in the municipality." What do you think he's

6 saying here?

7 A. Perhaps I think this entire interim report was a consequence of a

8 certain pressure put on the commander because of the opening up of the

9 corridor I mentioned a few days ago, and this corridor had actually been

10 forced. And as a consequence of this, he was trying to justify himself

11 before the Main Staff and represent the entire situation as being

12 extremely difficult, so that they would have to come to the conclusion

13 that the corridor had to be opened, because he had done something that had

14 not been approved by General Mladic, and this entire report is in fact an

15 attempt to justify himself.

16 Q. All right. Well, do you think that Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic

17 would have agreed to allow the 3.000 prisoners to come in, into Zvornik,

18 while he had taken the cream of the Zvornik Brigade to go off to Zepa and

19 leave you behind, facing the 28th Division? Do you think that that's

20 conceivable?

21 A. I don't know whether Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic made the

22 decision as to where he was to go or not. I don't think so. I think he

23 received orders. General Krstic or Mladic or whoever it was issued

24 orders, as it happens in the army.

25 Q. If you were having a difficult time trying to figure out the

Page 2697

1 strength of the 28th Division, do you think -- and you were there in

2 Zvornik, do you think your commander, Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, had

3 greater knowledge of the situation, where you were situated, from where he

4 was, and that is, on his way to Zvornik? Do you think that's possible?

5 A. What time period are you referring to?

6 Q. I'm referring to the 13th, the night of the 13th, that critical

7 night. If you were uncertain of the situation and you were there, and

8 he's on his way towards Zepa, surely you're not suggesting that he had

9 greater knowledge about the 28th and how dangerous the situation was than

10 you did.

11 A. Mr. Karnavas, this is a compound question, but I will try to find

12 my way in it. First of all, I don't know where Commander Pandurevic was

13 exactly on the 13th, and therefore I can't say here is the proof that he

14 was in such-and-such a place. I can only guess.

15 Secondly, I told you where I was on the 13th and what information

16 I had. All the commanders, starting from Mladic, to all the others who

17 were in Bratunac, were involved in the Krivaja 95 operation, and they were

18 all fighting the 28th Division. And all of them, like me, knew

19 approximately how many men that division had. Suddenly, that division

20 disappeared. In Potocari, they captured civilians, without any soldiers,

21 and logically, when things calmed down, I asked the commander and I said:

22 "Sir, where is the 28th Division? You found three old women in

23 Srebrenica. Where has the division gone? You knew it would come to

24 Zvornik." So what I'm getting at is that Pandurevic was not a naive

25 soldier. He probably didn't know on what hill the 28th Division was, what

Page 2698

1 stream it was crossing, but he knew that it was making its way in our

2 direction. That's how it was.

3 Q. And would it be fair to say that he also knew their potential

4 strength?

5 A. It's hard to generalise. I think he knew roughly, on the 13th

6 everybody knew, in the afternoon, about some of the prisoners, but perhaps

7 he didn't know that there were 7.000 to 10.000 of them. He knew, however,

8 that it was a considerable number, that there was a considerable force

9 somewhere. He may not have known where exactly they were at what point of

10 time, but everybody knew that they were somewhere in the area.

11 Q. Okay. When did you begin asking for help? When did it become

12 alarming to you to the point where you're reaching out and informing your

13 higher commands that the situation was grave enough that you needed some

14 help? Was it the 12th, the 13th? If the 13th, approximately when?

15 A. On the 13th, in the evening, you saw in that conversation

16 General Zivanovic said that I should apply to the MUP, but they arrived

17 only around midnight of the 13th, and that was only the Doboj Company.

18 During the 14th, I intensified my requests, and then in the night of the

19 14th to the 15th.

20 Q. But I also recall you stating on direct examination that some of

21 the information that you were getting, some of the advice that you were

22 getting, seemed to be somewhat unrealistic, given the circumstances on the

23 ground in Zvornik.

24 A. Yes, I did say that.

25 Q. And this led you to believe -- which led you to believe - and I'm

Page 2699

1 underscoring that - that -- well, let me put it crudely. They were more

2 or less without a clue as to how dangerous it was for you and for the

3 municipality in Zvornik; am I correct?

4 A. In general terms, yes.

5 Q. Now, as you sit here today testifying under oath, you cannot

6 verify to any degree of certainty that the commanders, or everybody,

7 including your commander, were part of any decision making or planning or

8 discussions with respect to the executions that took place, can you?

9 A. I didn't say that.

10 Q. I didn't say that you said it. I'm asking you the question. As

11 you sit here today, is it not a fact that you cannot verify to any degree

12 of certainty that the commanders, including your commander, were part of

13 some decision-making process or part of the discussions with respect to

14 these executions? That's the question.

15 A. What I can say is that on the 15th, as soon as Lieutenant Colonel

16 Pandurevic arrived, I told him the corridor -- what I have already

17 testified to, and that's how it was. After the 17th, when we saw the men

18 killed in Orahovac, on the spot -- I can't say anything about what

19 happened before that.

20 Q. Okay. Well, let me rephrase my question slightly better, and I

21 apologise. It's my fault. On the night of the 13th, when you received

22 that call, okay. So I'm focusing in that area. As you stand here today,

23 you cannot verify to any degree of certainty that everyone, the

24 commanders, including your commander, were part of any decision-making

25 process or had knowledge of the executions that took -- that were to

Page 2700

1 follow; isn't that a fact?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. It needs to be broken down. Everyone,

4 his commander. Those are all different people. I think it's a perfectly

5 fair question, but it's unfair to ask it in that manner.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I agree with you. It's a fair question. But

7 the issue is how to put your question, come across.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. I'll ask the same question three different

9 times, which means I take three times longer, Your Honour. I'm trying to

10 be efficient, but very well.

11 Q. As you sit here today, you cannot verify to any degree of

12 certainty that everyone was aware, on the night of the 13th, when you got

13 that call, that the prisoners were going to be executed; isn't that a

14 fact?

15 A. Mr. Karnavas, it's a fact that I knew only what Drago Nikolic had

16 told me at the time, nothing more apart from that.

17 Q. So the answer is -- so your answer is: You cannot verify to any

18 degree of certainty that your commander knew, on the night of the

19 13th - I'm not talking about later on, but on the night of the 13th - when

20 you get the call from Drago Nikolic, okay, you cannot verify to any degree

21 of certainty that Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic knew of the plan, if there

22 was such a plan, to execute the prisoners?

23 A. I repeat: I know nothing except for Drago Nikolic told me then.

24 At the time, I thought that Drago Nikolic would not be playing games with

25 such matters. It seemed impossible.

Page 2701

1 Q. All right. Well, we're not asking -- again, I'm going to focus my

2 question, this time with respect to Colonel Blagojevic, all right? As you

3 stand here today, having looked at all of the documents, gone over them

4 with your lawyers, all your conversations with the Prosecution and their

5 investigators and what have you, you cannot state here today with any

6 degree of certainty that on the night of the 13th, when you received the

7 call from Drago Nikolic, that Colonel Blagojevic knew of any plan to

8 execute the prisoners; isn't that a fact?

9 A. Mr. Karnavas, if I remember rightly, I never claimed anything like

10 that.

11 Q. I never suggested that you claimed. I'm not suggesting that you

12 claimed it. I'm asking the question, okay? Because obviously you took

13 Drago Nikolic's word. You accepted what he had -- what he represented.

14 And now the question is: Years later, after you've looked at all of these

15 documents and, and looking back, and having been in that situation, today,

16 under oath, you cannot state with any degree of certainty that

17 Colonel Blagojevic, on the night of the 13th, was aware of any plan to

18 execute, or any order given by Mladic, to execute the prisoners; isn't

19 that a fact?

20 A. I couldn't swear to the night of the 13th.

21 Q. Do you have any knowledge, any knowledge, from all of the

22 documents that you have -- because I'm not asking you to swear. We're

23 talking about very limited issue of: Everybody knows, including the

24 commander. Is there anything that you can pinpoint your finger on, that

25 we could look at, touch, feel, smell, review, that would give us some

Page 2702

1 certainty that your commander, or Colonel Blagojevic, on the night of the

2 13th knew of any order by General Mladic, if such an order existed, to

3 kill the prisoners?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: The question was first Pandurevic, then

6 Blagojevic. It's a fine question. I just wish the witness would be

7 directed on which he's talking about, because it's impossible to answer

8 those things all at once.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well, I think Mr. Karnavas is asking about

10 Mr. Blagojevic at this time.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll focus on Mr. Blagojevic. Do you want me to

12 restate the whole question again?

13 A. Yes, please.

14 Q. Okay. I'll try to repeat myself. As you sit here today,

15 sir - it's not a trick question, but as you sit here today, you cannot

16 show us any document that would give us any certainty that on the night of

17 the 13th, Colonel Blagojevic knew of any order by Mladic to execute any

18 prisoners?

19 A. Mr. Karnavas, I have not seen such a document.

20 Q. Okay. I'll accept that and I'll move on, Your Honour.

21 I apologise if I pressed you a little too much, but I'm trying to

22 be certain on this.

23 Okay. Let's move on to another topic, and now I want to focus you

24 on the military police, but sort of in a different manner in which you

25 were questioned on. As I understand it, that prior to the call from

Page 2703

1 Drago Nikolic, the Zvornik Brigade military police, had been tasked by you

2 to assist in or to partake in ambushes. Am I correct or am I off the path

3 on this one?

4 A. You're partly right, Mr. Karnavas.

5 Q. Okay. Well, let me -- okay. All right. Help me out here. Help

6 me out.

7 A. The military police of the Zvornik Brigade was deployed up to that

8 time in three ambushes, under my orders, and one traffic squad was sent to

9 the Konjevic Polje crossroads, and this was ordered by the commander of

10 the Drina Corps on the 12th. And the standard elements of the military

11 police, under orders from Pandurevic and later Drago Nikolic, were in

12 every infantry battalion. There were two military policemen from before,

13 and then there were several policemen at the desk, at the detention unit.

14 The lawyers from the military police were doing their job, and all these

15 things that I've just said were not under my orders.

16 Q. Okay. I believe you testified on -- it's October 2nd, October

17 2nd, 2003. And I'm quoting here from the transcript, on page 25, lines 1

18 through 3. You say: "A platoon from the military police company which

19 had been deployed at that time I sent to the ambush" -- it says sear. It

20 perhaps means rear. "And that they were there to go reconnaissance work

21 at the canyon by the village." And it goes on, so on and so forth. Do

22 you recall making that statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. All right. So you actually had tasked them to assist in a

25 combat operation?

Page 2704

1 A. To carry out reconnaissance of the Drinjaca River canyon.

2 Q. Okay. All right. Now, this is somewhat unconnected, but I want

3 to, with the -- I would like to show you what has been premarked as D17/1

4 for identification purposes. I think you looked at it yesterday. And it

5 is an order prepared by Colonel Blagojevic dated 5 July 1995. And perhaps

6 you could help us out here a little bit. And I would like you to focus

7 on, please, a very minor point. On 5.5. So it would be paragraph

8 5 -- I'm sorry. I mean 5.6, 5.6. This is the order prepared with respect

9 to the attack on Srebrenica.

10 A. I've read 5.6, Mr. Karnavas.

11 Q. And it basically states that his reserve during that operation

12 will be the military police; is that correct, the military police platoon?

13 That's their function, as reserve.

14 A. This is an order issued by the command of the 1st Bratunac

15 Brigade, dated the 5th of July, and this is what it says in 5.6: That

16 reserve military police platoon have it in the area of the 1st Bratunac

17 Light Infantry Brigade command post, ready to deploy if need be.

18 Q. Here's how you can help, all this controversy that we had last

19 week. Because Lieutenant-- I mean, Captain, not even First Class

20 Nikolic --

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the lead-in, statements, that's

22 improper. He's supposed to ask questions.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

24 Q. According to Captain Nikolic, and I'm reading from the transcript,

25 and it's on page 1950, dated 25 September 2003, and I'll have to read just

Page 2705

1 a portion of it, line 13. It says: "With an order of this kind, with an

2 assignment to the military police of this kind, violations have been made

3 first of the authorities of the brigade commander and his competencies and

4 the military police unit was engaged in matters that did not come under

5 the realm of military police assignments."

6 That's Nikolic's opinion with respect to using the military police

7 as reserve, and also he states later on that -- and if I can find it here

8 in a second. One second here. I'll move on.

9 Let me ask you this, Mr. Obrenovic: You used your military police

10 on a combat operation. Here Colonel Blagojevic is using his military

11 police to be in a reserve during a combat operation. Do you see anything

12 improper with the use of the military police in this fashion, the way that

13 Captain Nikolic has described?

14 A. Mr. Karnavas, I really don't know what Captain Nikolic said here,

15 but according to certain rules about the military police from the JNA,

16 which we used there, the truth is that the basic purpose of the military

17 police is not to participate in combat. The military police is intended

18 for other purposes, to secure command posts, commanders, and it has other

19 tasks, so we won't waste time going into all those. But it is also true

20 that situations were often -- well, I won't say unforeseeable, but very

21 often things that hadn't been planned, happened. And circumstances often

22 required that we use units, including the military police, for purposes

23 other than those for which they had been intended.

24 So the military police were sometimes used not only to perform

25 military police tasks but also to engage in combat. As you have seen, I

Page 2706

1 used that squad for reconnaissance, which you just mentioned. And perhaps

2 Captain Nikolic was right, because the military police is not a

3 reconnaissance squad; I should have used reconnaissance men, but I didn't

4 have any. So that's why I used the military police. As I said, I haven't

5 read what Nikolic said here.

6 Q. Okay. And have you familiarised yourself with the rules for the

7 military police as far as what they can and cannot be engaged in,

8 especially during times of combat operations?

9 A. Sometimes. It's a long time since I read the combat rules about

10 the use of the military police.

11 Q. Did your intelligence officer or security officer, Drago Nikolic,

12 raise any objections with the way you were using your military police for

13 actual combat as opposed to keeping them in reserve, or as the reserve?

14 A. As I said, he asked that a military police company be put at his

15 disposal, and I told him they were already in the field, that we didn't

16 have another company at our disposal. He then insisted that at least

17 Captain Jasikovac, with one platoon, be put at his disposal, and I said

18 I'd see what I could do and I let Jasikovac and five or six soldiers go.

19 I can't be precise about the number.

20 Q. I guess my question is: Before engaging them, before the 13th,

21 when you actually engaged them, did he raise any objections with you to

22 say, "you know, Mr. Acting Commander, what are you doing, you know, using

23 the military police for these purposes? You're improperly using them."

24 Did he raise any objections?

25 A. On the first day, that is, the 12th, when I sent the first group

Page 2707

1 up there, I told him in the corridor, I said, "Drago, we have no other

2 units, so we have to send some of the military police in Zaselje," before

3 he asked me anything, because I was aware of the fact that he could ask

4 something like that.

5 Q. All right. And it was your decision to send them up there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As it was your decision to bring them back and then task them with

8 the tasks that you gave them on the night of the 13th and then 14th, and

9 so on?

10 A. Yes. I told Captain Jasikovac that he should stay there and that

11 he should report to Drago Nikolic or that he would be called by him, and

12 that he would receive his orders from him. That's all.

13 Q. Would it be fair to say - and I don't want to dwell on this

14 issue - but would it be fair to say that by bringing back the part of the

15 military police and actually tasking them, you were in essence

16 individually involving yourself into this operation to kill the prisoners,

17 as opposed to just merely as a superior, commander, now you were

18 individually involving yourself? Would that be a fair way to characterise

19 your involvement?

20 A. I think it would, yes.

21 Q. Now, I'd like to switch to another topic, and if we could talk

22 about this term that has been used quite often. There I go again. I'm

23 making -- I'm stating something. If we could talk about what is commonly

24 referred to in this courtroom as "zone of responsibility," that whole

25 concept, okay? All right. Obviously, you've heard the term before.

Page 2708

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in fact, I believe I've come across some of your -- some

3 things in writing by you, maybe even orally, where you've even used the

4 term "zone of responsibility." Is that correct?

5 A. Probably, yes.

6 Q. Okay. Now, does the brigade, a brigade, not a corps, but does a

7 brigade have a zone of responsibility?

8 A. Mr. Karnavas, for me to give a precise answer, we would have to

9 look at the rules and regulations for infantry motorised and mountain

10 brigades of the JNA, those rules and regulations, because they refer to

11 several concepts: First of all, the zone of intelligence responsibility,

12 the zone of defence -- I don't know if I've forgotten any of them. The

13 zone of responsibility is - how shall I put this - a derived term, and you

14 won't find it in the rules if you stick to the rules and regulations. You

15 won't find it stipulated there, in addition to the other rules and

16 instructions for the work of commands and headquarters in the JNA. But it

17 is a concept that was used there. And you quite rightly stated that in

18 some documents from the corps command, from that period of time, you might

19 also find it used there. And if I remember correctly, the corps command

20 at one point in time designated the points, and perhaps I showed this on

21 the map the other day. I think I did. And in that order it referred to

22 the zone of responsibility, which I pointed out.

23 Q. Okay. Well, before we get to the rules - and I do have them here,

24 and we can go through them. There are only three on each side - does the

25 corps, the Drina Corps, have a zone of responsibility?

Page 2709

1 A. Yes, it does.

2 Q. Okay. And that zone of responsibility is quite different than any

3 zones, or a zone of responsibility - and I hate using that term for the

4 brigades - but it's quite different than what is tasked to the brigades?

5 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas. The corps command is an operative command.

6 Brigades are associated commands or lower levels of commands and you're

7 quite right, yes.

8 Q. Could you help us out here a little bit. You're a military

9 expert. Could you tell us a little bit about what does a zone of

10 responsibility for the corps encompass? And if it would be helpful, we

11 can use one of the Prosecutor's maps, one of their charts, and maybe you

12 can help us out there. That might assist us. But I'll leave it up to

13 you. Maybe you want to give us the description and then we can --

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, could I cut in, if you don't mind?

15 Mr. McCloskey, have you ever introduced a map indicating the zone of

16 responsibility of the Drina Corps, Bratunac Brigade or the Zvornik

17 Brigade?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I believe there's a map in

19 the indictment that has the -- if we're talking about geographic borders,

20 which I'm not exactly sure if they're talking about that or not yet. But

21 we -- the indictment has the rough -- you know, it's a rough map of

22 geographic borders. This map -- the military map behind me also has the

23 northern border of the Drina Corps, as the witness pointed out, and it

24 also has the front lines. It doesn't go all the way down. Ms. Stewart

25 has reminded me: We have P85, which went in through Mr. Nikolic, and

Page 2710

1 Mr. Butler will talk about it, and it does have the geographic borders

2 written on it, based on many things that Mr. Butler has studied. So

3 that's just a rough recollection of this geographic zone of

4 responsibility.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. It's very helpful. Maybe we

6 could use this map, Mr. Karnavas.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you for the assistance, Your Honour, and I

8 agree.

9 JUDGE LIU: And we could put that map on the ELMO.

10 MR. KARNAVAS:

11 Q. All right. Now, if you could just take a look at the map and just

12 get your bearings. And I guess -- I just want some general questions to

13 be answered. If you could just show us with the pointer, and for

14 identification purposes, this is what again? P -- I just want -- P85.

15 Okay. I just want to make my record. If you could demonstrate on what

16 has been marked as P85 where the zone of the Drina Corps is, in a

17 geographical sense, what it encompasses, so we can visualise it.

18 A. Mr. Karnavas, on this document numbered P85, if I can see this

19 correctly, all it provides is the northern part of the zone of

20 responsibility of the Drina Corps. So what is lacking here is the

21 southern portion, which encompasses geographic entities, the built-up

22 areas, inhabited areas, from Han Pijesak onwards, which means Sokolac,

23 Rogatica, Visegrad, parts of the Gorazde municipality, and, if I remember

24 correctly, the territory of part of the municipality of Cajnice. So that

25 part is lacking on this map.

Page 2711

1 Q. All right. Well, maybe during the break the Prosecution can

2 furnish us with a better map or a larger map. I don't know. But we'll

3 try to deal with that technical issue.

4 But would it be fair to say that when we're talking about a zone

5 of responsibility for the corps, a corps, on the map you could actually

6 draw a border, and everything within this border would be part of the zone

7 of responsibility of a corps? Am I correct or am I oversimplifying it or

8 am I just off?

9 A. In general terms, you're right.

10 Q. Okay. And within this sort of geographical, if we could sort of

11 visualise a pie, you know, within this, some sections are designated

12 within this pie to the various brigades?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Okay. And those areas that are not given to any particular

15 brigade still remain part of the zone of responsibility of the corps. So

16 the corps is responsible, in other words, for those sections of the pie

17 that are not taken up by the various brigades. It's a crude analogy, but

18 I think it might help us out here.

19 A. If I understand you correctly, the explanation and interpretation

20 of the military rules and regulations, the corps is still responsible,

21 regardless of whether it's the lower command that is responsible. So for

22 the zone of the brigade, this does not make the responsibility of the

23 corps any less, just as the command of the brigade is responsible for what

24 goes on in the battalion area, following on from the same logics.

25 Q. All right. But I guess what I'm trying to suggest, and correct me

Page 2712

1 in I'm misstating the case, that within this geographic region, this zone

2 of responsibility of the corps, there are sections that are not designated

3 to any particular brigade. You don't know?

4 A. I really don't know.

5 Q. Okay. Well, let's take, for instance, Zvornik. Was the Zvornik

6 Brigade responsible for the municipality of Zvornik? You were there. You

7 were called Zvornik Brigade. Your headquarters were in Zvornik. Was the

8 municipality part of the zone of responsibility, or whatever we want to

9 call it - we're going to get more technical later - of the Zvornik

10 Brigade, or was it part of the zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps?

11 A. Mr. Karnavas, what we had was an order from the command of the

12 Drina Corps stipulating several points, perhaps six or seven. I can

13 enumerate them later on. But the zone was precisely defined, that zone of

14 responsibility. As I said, the rules provided for things in a different

15 way. And if I recall, you won't find the zone of responsibility mentioned

16 in the rules and regulations. But also if my memory serves me, there was

17 an order by the corps commander, for instance, probably dated 1994,

18 whatever the year was, which - I don't know for what reason exactly - did

19 define quite precisely those zones of responsibility. So that's how they

20 existed.

21 Q. Okay. Well, let me try another way. I want to refer to your

22 statement. You gave a statement to the Prosecution on 4 June 2003. Do

23 you remember giving a statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And during the statement -- let me see if I can find the

Page 2713

1 right page. It's only a small ... You were asked a series of questions,

2 and now I'm going to read a section. It's from page 8, and it's lines 16

3 to 20. And you're being asked by Peter McCloskey, the gentleman there.

4 Q. So, sorry. That was a two-part question. And you

5 were the person that was in charge that evening in Zvornik.

6 That was the question, "in Zvornik." Your answer:

7 A. For the Zvornik Brigade, not for Zvornik.

8 Now, from here, it seems to -- you seem to be implying that you

9 weren't responsible for Zvornik, meaning the municipality of Zvornik, but

10 you were in charge of Zvornik Brigade. Do I have it wrong?

11 A. No. You read it out correctly.

12 Q. Okay. And you, as the brigade -- well, you were sitting in as the

13 deputy commander at the time, but even when Pandurevic was there, he was

14 not responsible for the municipality. That wasn't his zone of

15 responsibility, the municipality itself.

16 A. I said a moment ago that the order from the corps commander was

17 received exactly by the Zvornik Brigade. Let me take it from the north.

18 Along the Drina River, a feature 141. It's not here, but I know it by

19 heart. Then there's a road, a path, called Konjski Put, and the hill

20 there. Then there's the Praznitorba facility, once again not on the map.

21 And then we went round in order, the Spreca River, then further on from

22 the river to Kozluk, from Kozluk to Udrc, to Kuslat, to Milovan, and once

23 again to the Drina River, with those features. And somewhere in the

24 documents we can find an exact description of this zone of defence. I

25 said that -- in response to Mr. McCloskey that I wasn't the chief in

Page 2714

1 Zvornik. The Zvornik municipality is a complex community. You'll find

2 factories, hospitals there, and what have you, millions of other things.

3 So as the deputy commander, I was responsible for the units which were

4 located there, and that's what I meant when I said that. That's what I

5 said.

6 Q. Who controls the area between one brigade and the other, if there

7 is a gap? Who controls that? A particular brigade or is it part of the

8 corps' responsibility to provide the protection?

9 A. Well, to be precise in responding to your question, our left

10 neighbour was the 1st Birac Brigade and the border went along the Spreca

11 River to the facilities I mentioned a moment ago, towards Udrc and there

12 was no gap. You knew that it was the Zvornik Brigade, pukovnik Andric,

13 under whose responsibility that was. And towards Colonel Blagojevic's

14 brigade, the border ran or the zone of responsibility ran from the Drina

15 River, that is to say the southern side -- border of the municipality of

16 Zvornik, up to Milovan, which was a feature there, and Kuslat. That was

17 their zone. So our brigade had no gap. Now, how this was resolved in

18 other areas, I can't say. I assume that the corps commander ordered

19 something. But I can't be more specific than what I've just told you.

20 Q. All right. Now, as I understand -- well, let's go through the

21 rules. If I can show you what has been premarked for identification

22 purposes as P83. These are the brigade rules. And also D51. D51 and

23 P83. And for the record, D51 are the rule corps [sic] of ground forces.

24 Now, this is dated 1990, so it's post-events. But if you could look at

25 it, and maybe if they were still relevant or applicable at the time, we

Page 2715

1 could discuss it. And also the brigade rules dated 1984. And you may

2 wish to look at, on D51 - we'll take it step by step - rule 5. So you may

3 wish to look at also rule 3 and 4, but primarily rule 5. And its

4 counterpart in P83, the brigade rules, rule 13.

5 A. I've found it, Mr. Karnavas.

6 Q. Okay. And have you had a chance to look both at the rule 5 of the

7 corps and rule 13 of the brigade?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me. Just for clarity --

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe he's referring to paragraph numbers.

11 This is -- this whole document is a rule, but just for clarity, I think

12 this is paragraph number. It's not a rule number or an article.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Paragraph.

15 Q. We'll look at paragraph number 5 under the corps and paragraph 13

16 under the brigade rules. Have you had a chance to look at both?

17 A. Yes, I have, sir.

18 Q. Okay. Now, in reading these two paragraphs, corresponding

19 paragraphs, is there a difference between what is allocated or given to a

20 corps versus what the corps allocates to the brigade, as far as a

21 geographic allocation of territory? I don't know if that -- if you can

22 understand my question.

23 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas. As it says here in the two paragraphs

24 mentioned, there is a difference.

25 Q. Okay. And at least with respect to the brigade rules, or the

Page 2716

1 brigade -- paragraph number 13, with respect to the zone -- we have a zone

2 of operation; right? And not a zone of responsibility; right? It says

3 "zone of operation." Is that correct? I'm doing it step by step, so we

4 don't draw any objections.

5 A. Yes. And a moment ago, that's what I told you when you asked.

6 Q. I know, but ... And then in which to carry out its tasks. And

7 then you have a zone of attack, the zone of defence, the zone of march,

8 and suchlike. That's what's stated in those rules, right, in paragraph 13

9 of the brigade rule? Correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Now, the zone of operation for the brigade is a ground space of

12 limited width and depth, in which a brigade organises and carries out

13 combat operations; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, who designates that ground space of limited, limited width

16 and depth? Who designates that?

17 A. The corps command does.

18 Q. And on what basis is that designated? I mean, what are the

19 criteria? I mean, if you know. That they would look at and say: Okay.

20 To the Bratunac Brigade, given the fact that they only have so many

21 soldiers and we need to cover this amount of territory, given that they

22 have this neighbour and that neighbour, with these sorts of resources.

23 What are the criteria?

24 A. Mr. Karnavas, as you probably know, I never worked in the corps

25 command. But perhaps I can use the experience gained from the brigade

Page 2717

1 command when designating regions for the battalion's defence, the brigade

2 command would then have in mind first of all the composition and combat

3 capabilities of the unit concerned, that is the battalion, and secondly,

4 the geographical characteristics of the terrain on which combat operations

5 are to take place; and third, the expected predicted enemy forces in the

6 ground space concerned, the communications, roads, obstacles, and similar

7 features. Perhaps the corps command would think along those lines. It's

8 an operative command. I never worked there and I don't have any

9 experience in that respect.

10 Q. I think that covers it, and I think you might also throw in the

11 mission, because you've indicated number of soldiers, equipment, the

12 terrain, the enemy disposition and capability, and I take it also the

13 mission.

14 A. Yes, the combat assignment, yes.

15 Q. All right. Okay. Now, how did the depth of the Zvornik Brigade,

16 did that also encompass the entire municipality of Zvornik, the town

17 itself?

18 A. Mr. Karnavas, an answer to your question would require complexity.

19 To all intents and purposes, throughout the war, there was a certain - I

20 don't know if I'm going to use the right term here - parallelism, between

21 what was set according to the rules and what daily life required. Let me

22 put this in another way. The zone of responsibility of a motorised

23 brigade would have had to be a broad section of the front, that is to say,

24 underneath -- below 15 kilometres. In a mountainous terrain that would be

25 12 to 15 kilometres. I might be out one or two kilometres. And in depth,

Page 2718

1 this would be the same for the rear. Now, as you can see on this map

2 here, and as you can see with the naked eye, this zone of defence, the

3 front, was 45 kilometres long, which means two or three times, three times

4 the amount provided for by the rules and regulations. Because the defence

5 was organised in linear form, without the deployment of the battalion in

6 depth.

7 So what we tried to do was --

8 Q. Slow down a little bit, just a little bit. Slow down. Wonderful

9 answer, but slow down a little bit, for the ...

10 A. I apologise. Yes. What I was going to say is this: The rules

11 were one thing, and the commands tried within the frameworks of their

12 possibilities and feasibility to put them into practice. And then I

13 quoted this other example of the defence front of the Zvornik Brigade.

14 Q. Okay. So given the amount of manpower that you had available, you

15 had a particular terrain that you needed to cover, a line, and then you

16 had a certain amount of territory looking forward and territory depth

17 backwards, and that was your zone of operation. Am I correct in stating

18 that?

19 A. Yes, you're right.

20 Q. Okay. And behind that area, if it was within, within the corps

21 zone of responsibility, I take it that the corps would be responsible for

22 that area.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Vague. It's impossible to tell what

25 area he's talking about.

Page 2719

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe, Mr. Karnavas, you did not put yourself

2 very clear.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you are tired, and it's time for a break. Shall

5 we break now?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I hope the fatigue is not showing, but we

7 could use the break, Your Honour. Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE LIU: But I have to remind you that I hope you could finish

9 your cross-examination before 1.30.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll be frank. I'll be frank. You're giving me a

11 Herculean task and I'm certainly not of any calibre of Hercules to finish

12 that in that amount of time. At the end of the day I can assure you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Try your best.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm trying, I'm trying.

15 JUDGE LIU: Try your best. During the break I hope you could

16 somehow streamline your questions.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I do also want to note that these are

18 critical issues. I know they don't seem at this point, but we do have a

19 military expert. It's a Prosecution expert. But these are -- I'm laying

20 the groundwork for what is to come and I certainly don't want to bring

21 Mr. Obrenovic back as my witness.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. And another thing that we could ask

23 the Prosecution to do us a favour. I wonder whether you could furnish us

24 with a map indicating the zone of responsibility of the various units, as

25 well as the zone of the Srebrenica safe area, the area which controlled by

Page 2720

1 the BiH army, so that we can have a clear picture of how things -- it's

2 just geographic, you know, indications, nothing else.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this military map behind me I

4 believe is the -- it was done by the Zvornik Brigade. I think it's very

5 reliable. The northern border of the Zvornik Brigade and the Drina River

6 and the front line. It doesn't go as far down as Rogatica, so we don't

7 have the whole Drina Corps, but I don't see how that's really relevant.

8 We can try to find a map of the southern border. I don't think we have

9 one. But it is in a rough map of the indictment. This exhibit --

10 JUDGE LIU: I'm interested in the border areas between the two

11 brigades, which is relevant to this case.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the exhibit, P85, as you know, is

13 not the precise geographic map as the other one, but it has the rough

14 drawing of what Mr. Butler's study has revealed regarding those brigades.

15 The best way to determine that, and I hate to put the witness to any work,

16 but he knows them precisely. He can describe them. And I'm sure, if

17 given the chance, he can mark, from his knowledge, those markings. We

18 have them. I believe they're roughly correct in this simple map, and

19 they're marked in -- I believe in green. If the witness could be asked

20 about that. But the precise areas would be best drawn on that map. We

21 did not find a map that had all of these on them. It's a compilation of

22 our knowledge. That is a reflection of the compilation of our knowledge,

23 that map right there.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, it would be much helpful if we have that map or

25 the future witness, not only for this one, so would you please try your

Page 2721

1 best, while incorporating the testimony of this witness, to furnish us

2 with a map indicating the zone of responsibility, at a later stage, not

3 now.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: This map has it, Your Honour. If I could explain

5 it to you, I could show it to you. And if you would like it in a more

6 detailed, a topographic map, we can do that also.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe at a later stage.

8 Yes. We'll resume at 12.30.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Okay. Mr. Obrenovic, we were speaking about zones before we took

14 our break. Before we get to the map: Were you -- was your zone -- did

15 your zone also encompass the Zvornik town?

16 A. In practical terms, yes.

17 Q. All right. So you were in charge of the traffic police over

18 there? You understand English, so please: Were you in charge of the

19 traffic?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. This is argumentative,

21 and it's a suggestion that he's avoiding the question, which is, after all

22 the hard work this witness has done -- not necessary.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: I object to the speechmaking about the hard work of

24 the witness. He's a witness like any other, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's a small matter. It is not worth that kind

Page 2722

1 of argument. Just ask your question.

2 MR. KARNAVAS:

3 Q. Was there a competent civil authority for the Zvornik town; yes or

4 no?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And were they not in charge of the town, or was it the colonel --

7 Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, and in his absence Major Obrenovic, in town

8 of the Zvornik town and the Zvornik municipality? Who was in charge?

9 A. Mr. Karnavas, the town, as a built-up area, I think it's

10 unnecessary to explain. This is a built-up area where civilians live,

11 where life goes on, quite apart from military elements. Who was in charge

12 there? It was, conditionally speaking, the civilian authorities. Perhaps

13 they did not exist, but there were certain institutions of civilian

14 organisation. I won't go into that in detail, but there were two parallel

15 systems there.

16 Q. Okay. You say conditionally speaking. Are you suggesting that

17 there was -- well, the civilian authority was in charge of the Zvornik

18 town and the municipality; isn't that a fact?

19 A. Yes, it is a fact.

20 Q. All right. And it wasn't that the Zvornik Brigade was in charge

21 of the town, then; correct?

22 A. No, not the town. Not for the elements that were independent of

23 the army. Of course not.

24 Q. Well, they had their own police force, for instance. In other

25 words, you didn't engage your military police to be patrolling the

Page 2723

1 streets, to be engaged in traffic control in Zvornik town; right?

2 A. Mr. Karnavas, the military police of the Zvornik Brigade was

3 tasked with military police assignments, regulating the military traffic

4 in the area of Zvornik, checking the identity of soldiers wherever they

5 may be. The military police performed tasks falling within its

6 competence, regardless of whether this was in Zvornik or Karakaj or any

7 other place. Of course they had nothing to do with the civilian

8 population or with civilian traffic.

9 Q. All right. So they were not -- that's my whole point. They were

10 not engaged in the functions of the civilian functions for Zvornik with

11 respect to policing?

12 A. No, certainly not.

13 Q. And would that, by analogy, also apply, say, in Bratunac? Would

14 the Bratunac Brigade, for instance, also be in charge of Bratunac town?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Vague and overbroad question.

18 MR. KARNAVAS:

19 Q. Do you understand the question, Mr. Obrenovic?

20 A. Mr. Karnavas, at that time I was not in Bratunac, but by analogy,

21 one might suppose so.

22 Q. All right. Okay. Now, under the rules, the corps, does it not

23 have -- the corps. I'm not talking about the brigade. Does the corps not

24 have a geographic border where that's -- their zone of responsibility is?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 2724

1 Q. All right. And does that not encompass, within their geographic

2 border, does it not encompass towns, such as Zvornik?

3 A. It encompasses everything within the zone.

4 Q. Okay. Including the areas where the particular brigades are not

5 taking up. Because as you've indicated, you have a particular line with a

6 certain depth and a certain amount of forward territory that you're

7 responsible for; correct?

8 A. I said a little while ago that as for the zones of brigades, I can

9 speak about the Zvornik Brigade and our left-hand neighbours, the 1st

10 Birac Brigade, and the Bratunac Brigade, which was our neighbour in depth.

11 As for the others, I really couldn't reply with any precision.

12 Q. Okay. Well, if we looked at the particular zones -- let me put it

13 this way. If we looked at the particular areas that each brigade covered

14 within the Drina Corps zone of responsibility, would that cover the entire

15 geographical area? If you don't know the answer, just say: I don't know.

16 A. In the part I mentioned, it did. But as for the other parts, I

17 don't know. The concept of zone of responsibility, which does not exist

18 in the rules of an infantry brigade, was used in 1994, or perhaps earlier,

19 by the corps command, in an order that they issued. I remember that we in

20 Zvornik commented upon this, that this was not according to the rules.

21 Q. Okay. Now, perhaps you can assist us here a little bit. I want

22 to focus you on your statement of 4 June 2003. I believe it's -- I'm

23 going to read from pages 62, starting with line 27, all the way to page

24 63, line 6. And I'll ask you if you recall making this statement, and

25 then we'll discuss it. On page -- on line 25, Peter McCloskey is asking

Page 2725

1 you the questions.

2 Q. Oppose what?

3 And then you answer:

4 A. Mladic's idea that these people should be shot. I

5 think he said that Mladic was surrounded by a group of people who were

6 sycophants and afraid to stand up to him, and that was not good.

7 You're referring to Pandurevic. This is the conversation you're

8 having with Pandurevic. "I asked him: 'Should we do something about it?

9 Because it was our defence zone.'" Defence zone. "He said: 'What is

10 there for us to do? It is well known who ordered it, who carried it out.

11 And this is all in the zone of the main headquarters.' And as far as

12 anything in writing is concerned, according to him," meaning Pandurevic,

13 "those reports are sufficient. Furthermore he mentioned and he was angry

14 that the commander of civil defence in Zvornik, who refused to take part

15 in the burials when he requested," meaning he, Pandurevic," and then he

16 declined, a quarrel ensued between them and he said he would subsequently

17 settle that with him."

18 Do you recall having this conversation with Mr. McCloskey? This

19 happened to be one of the tape-recorded ones. Do you recall that?

20 A. I remember that, and that's what I said. It's possible that it

21 may have been misinterpreted to me. I think I said Main Staff, not main

22 command.

23 Q. Okay. And so when you're talking about the Main Staff and their

24 zone, you're talking, in essence, the entire RS territory; right? It

25 stands to reason.

Page 2726

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then within that territory, you have one geographical region

3 given to one corps, such as the Drina Corps; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then, as we said, within that geographical region, you have

6 these zones of defence of the particular brigades, which are based on

7 tasks as opposed to a geographic territory. Am I correct in stating it in

8 those terms?

9 A. For the most part.

10 Q. Okay. Is there any part that you wish to clarify? Because I'm

11 not trying to -- I don't want to put words in your mouth and I'm not

12 trying to misrepresent the facts or what is under the rules.

13 A. Perhaps a short explanation is necessary in relation to -- let's

14 use the expression "invented term zone of responsibility of a brigade. As

15 I said, this term was invented, or rather, used by the command of the

16 Drina Corps in some of the orders they issued. I think it may have been

17 in 1994. So in any case, it was considerably before these events. And

18 for reasons known to them, they divided up part of the territory, and I'm

19 referring to the part that relates to the north part of their zone of

20 responsibility, where they made a precise list of the zone of

21 responsibility of the brigades, that is, the Zvornik Brigade, to be

22 precise. And you are quite right; this concept does not exist under the

23 rules and regulations. Why they did this, I don't know.

24 Q. Okay. Now, focusing back to this little conversation that you had

25 between -- with your commander, I want to focus on his response with

Page 2727

1 respect to the civil authorities, the civil defence in Zvornik. Now, when

2 we're talking about the civil defence, we're talking of a civil versus a

3 military authority, are we not?

4 A. Mr. Karnavas, perhaps this is being misinterpreted to me. I said

5 civilian protection, not civil defence. I don't know English very well,

6 but in the Serbian language, these two concepts are quite distinct. And

7 if I recall well, I talked to Mr. McCloskey of civilian protection.

8 Q. Okay. Well, I apologise if I'm confusing you on top of that, so

9 let me make sure I have it right. The civil protection, at least from the

10 sounds of it, seems to me like we're talking about a civilian authority

11 versus the military authority. Correct?

12 A. Yes, it's a civilian institution.

13 Q. Okay. Now, can we conclude from Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic's

14 little remark to you, can we conclude -- or is he implying that the

15 municipalities, or the Zvornik at the time, was not under military

16 control, and therefore, that's why he was unable to exercise any of his

17 own authority to get the civil defence to do what he wanted them to do?

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to the form of the question. It says:

20 Can we conclude or can we imply. The question says yes, we don't know if

21 he's made a conclusion or an implication and I know this will be used in

22 argument down the road.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Well taken, Your Honour. I see the errors of my

24 ways. I will rephrase.

25 JUDGE LIU: In other words, that is the military control is not

Page 2728

1 quite clear.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Military control.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's not quite clear.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right. Well, thank you, Your Honour.

5 Thank you for pointing that out. All right.

6 Q. Well, let me just -- let me go about it in another way. From what

7 Mr. Pandurevic is saying, does he not seem to be implying that the

8 municipalities were not under military control? And we'll get to the

9 control part. That he had no control over the civil defence, the civil

10 authority?

11 A. I'm not sure whether I understood you correctly. When you said

12 "municipality," we are referring to the geographic concept or to a body

13 of -- a local government body?

14 Q. A local government body.

15 A. The local political authority was not under military command.

16 Q. And in fact, they were independent, were they not? They were

17 autonomous?

18 A. In relation to Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, yes, if that's your

19 question.

20 Q. Okay. Well, in relation to the military, the Zvornik Brigade, the

21 administrative authorities, the civilian administrative authorities in

22 Zvornik, were autonomous from, say, the commander of the Zvornik Brigade?

23 A. Yes, they were.

24 Q. All right. And this is a good example where -- at least

25 Mr. Pandurevic seems to be indicating that he could not get the civil

Page 2729

1 defence to comply with a particular order or request that he had made or

2 that had been made to him?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he means civil protection again.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Civil protection.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Remember Tito. This is a big difference in this

7 world.

8 A. Absolutely.

9 MR. KARNAVAS:

10 Q. Okay. All right. Well, I think we can move on. I think we can

11 move on.

12 I want to talk a little bit about the security organ right now.

13 And there was an instruction that was shown to you yesterday, and as I

14 believe, it was identified as D22/1 for identification purposes. If I

15 could show that to you again, we can briefly discuss that.

16 Did you have an opportunity to read it thoroughly yesterday, when

17 you looked at it?

18 A. I skimmed through it, I think.

19 Q. All right. Might I conclude from your -- from this answer that

20 you did not go over this in depth, either with your lawyers or with

21 Mr. McCloskey, prior to coming here today? Looking at it is one thing,

22 but actually going into it concretely in depth.

23 A. Mr. Karnavas, I think that Mr. McCloskey and I looked at it, and I

24 looked at it with my lawyers in -- well, more seriously, so to speak.

25 Q. Okay. Now, were you aware of this particular policy, the policy

Page 2730

1 that set in -- maybe not the document, but the policy that's set into this

2 particular document that's been identified as D22, were you aware of it

3 back then, in 1995?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Foundation. What policy? I think he

6 first needs to identify if there is a policy before he can ask such a

7 question.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe so.

9 MR. KARNAVAS:

10 Q. Well, yesterday you discussed this under direct examination when

11 Mr. McCloskey was asking you questions. Do you recall that?

12 A. I remember, yes. You heard that.

13 Q. And having read this, does this document not set out or give

14 instructions with respect to the security organ within the VRS?

15 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas. These are listed in several paragraphs. Eight

16 certain things are listed here.

17 Q. Okay. And this particular instruction was handed down by

18 General Mladic, was it not?

19 A. I couldn't be precise about that, Mr. Karnavas, but all I can say

20 is that the heading of this document bears the title "Headquarters of

21 Republika Srpska Army," and that Commander Ratko Mladic's name is typed

22 here, but somebody else signed for him. I don't know who. That's the

23 best answer I can give you.

24 Q. And brief -- well, let me ask you this: Do you know whether any

25 rules existed prior to the issuance of this instruction that detailed how

Page 2731

1 the security organ was supposed to function within the VRS?

2 A. Yes, Mr. Karnavas. At that time, as we've already mentioned,

3 wherever the VRS did not have its own rules, the rules of the JNA were

4 applied. It was common knowledge that there was a rule on the work of the

5 security organs in the JNA - I don't know from what year - and there was

6 also a rule on the military police, and an instruction on the

7 implementation of the rule on military police.

8 Q. All right. Now, does this document set out any policy directives

9 or instructions on how the commanders are to relate to the security organs

10 within their commands?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the form of the question. Policy

13 directives and instructions can be two entirely different things, and

14 we're in the multi-part question problem again.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. KARNAVAS:

18 Q. In this instruction, does General Mladic set out certain

19 policies? Yes or no.

20 A. Mr. Karnavas, I wouldn't call it a policy. An instruction in the

21 military rules is a very precise concept. It's issued by the Main Staff,

22 and I don't know it by heart, but you can find the definition in the

23 rules. The Main Staff, or Mladic, as you said, through this instruction,

24 gives certain practical tasks in relation to command, security

25 organs -- or rather, security organs in commands that have them.

Page 2732

1 Q. Well, if there were rules, why was it necessary for Mladic to also

2 issue instructions. Why doesn't Mladic send a letter saying: From now

3 on, everybody should apply the rules that we have? Why is it necessary

4 for him to produce this rather detailed instruction?

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, this question is not that

6 relevant.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: All right.

8 Q. Looking at paragraph number 2, at the bottom of the paragraph. It

9 says: "Besides, all members of such agencies and services, have lawful

10 authority to proceed on tasks within their scope of work, and those

11 correspond to the authorities of members of the RS Ministry of Internal

12 Affairs state security department." What do you understand that to mean?

13 A. I apologise. What paragraph did you say?

14 Q. Paragraph number 2, the last sentence.

15 A. "The commander of units may be consulted about these issues," is

16 that it? I apologise. I can't find it.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. The second paragraph?

19 Q. Paragraph number -- there are paragraphs that are numbered, at

20 least the English version.

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Okay. So if you go to number 2, there's a number of it, and I'm

23 referring to a section that the last -- the last sentence in that

24 paragraph, paragraph number 2, where it talks about internal affairs and

25 state security department. Did you read that? Does this not seem to

Page 2733

1 imply that now the security organ is becoming more like an institution?

2 A. I would say, Mr. Karnavas, that this sets out some rights given to

3 the security organs, in actual fact, and they are given those rights

4 which, according to the law, are rights enjoyed by members of the MUP and

5 the state security sector. Now, I can speculate as to what this refers

6 to, but I'm sure that the laws -- that the law sets out which rights the

7 organs have. Perhaps to ask people taken into custody to show their ID

8 cards or to take people into custody, in fact, or things of that kind.

9 Now, whether it's an institution or not an institution, I really can't

10 say.

11 Q. Okay. The RS -- well, would you say that the RS Ministry of

12 Internal Affairs, is that a particular organ?

13 A. If I understand this correctly, the Ministry of Internal Affairs

14 is an organ of the government of Republika Srpska.

15 Q. Okay. And what --

16 A. If we're talking about the government of Republika Srpska.

17 Q. And then you have the state security department, which is within

18 the Ministry of the Interior -- of Internal Affairs; correct?

19 A. I don't know the set-up of the organisation in those details.

20 Q. Very well. Let's go to paragraph number 3. And I'll just --

21 we'll read along together: "It is an obligation of all RS units and

22 institution commands, as well as the obligation of other army members, to

23 render any assistance to these agencies required to accomplish their tasks

24 without jeopardising, through a single act, the security and protection of

25 planned intelligence or counter-intelligence tasks and actions undertaken

Page 2734

1 locally as well as in an enemy territory."

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I know it was just a slip of the tongue, but it

4 was meant to be VRS units, not RS units. There's actually a major

5 difference, and Mr. Karnavas, I've got the recent translation, if you want

6 to use that.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: The VRS. We'll use VRS.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 MR. KARNAVAS:

10 Q. Now, it says here -- it seems to be setting out a policy or an

11 obligation, okay, as to what the VRS units and institutions of commands

12 vis-a-vis, in relation to, the security organs; am I correct?

13 A. Yes, you are.

14 Q. In other words, you don't have a choice. You are obliged. It's a

15 requirement.

16 A. It says it is a requirement.

17 Q. Okay. Now, let's look at the next sentence: "Simultaneously," at

18 the same time, that is, "simultaneously, it is a duty of the members of

19 the security intelligence agencies to directly inform their superior

20 commanders to a necessary extent," and I'm underscoring that part, I'm

21 highlighting that part, to a necessary extent," on the data, assessment,

22 and observations related to security of units-institutions."

23 Did you find that part?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Is there anything wrong?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a completely different translation from the

Page 2735

1 official translation.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I'm unaware that his version is the official

3 translation. I can read the other translation as well.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: It might make it easier for the interpreters, who

5 usually should have the official interpretation. The CLSS interpretation.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, would you please offer your

7 version of this translation.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And we, of course, as you recall, back when

9 we did this, and I will give up mine. If we could get it on the ELMO so I

10 could see --

11 MR. KARNAVAS: That's fine.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's put it on the ELMO.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: All right.

14 Q. Let's focus on the first part. It says: "At the same time,

15 simultaneously, to the extent and in the measure necessary," as is

16 necessary, okay. Now, let's stop right there. Does this not seem to mean

17 that they have some discretion, that is, the security organ exercises its

18 discretion, based on how that is phrased, that paragraph?

19 A. According to their assessment, or the assessment of the security

20 organ of the Superior Command, yes.

21 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that at one point you had a first

22 lieutenant, not even a captain, in the Zvornik Brigade who apparently was

23 giving your commander, Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, let's say some grief

24 over how he, that is, the first lieutenant, should be conducting his tasks

25 as the chief of the security organ. Do you recall that?

Page 2736

1 A. Yes. I said something similar to Mr. McCloskey.

2 Q. Right. And in fact, Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic tried to

3 control him, in a sense of trying to control his actions, but was more or

4 less overruled by higher authorities, particularly because this first

5 lieutenant was a member of the -- was the chief of the security organ?

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Vagueness. This needs specificity to

8 be proper.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the question has got a point.

10 MR. KARNAVAS:

11 Q. Was the question vague for you, sir, or are you capable of

12 answering it?

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, it's not proper to ask this kind

14 of question to the witness himself.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: At some point, Your Honour, the objections are

16 designed to disrupt and obstruct, and at some point a question such as

17 this is like a shot over the bow of the Prosecution. Because we're trying

18 to get to somewhere with this particular gentleman, and this information

19 was elicited on direct and I'm trying to go deeper into the subject

20 matter.

21 JUDGE LIU: Then you can do it step by step.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Lay your foundations first.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: You indicated there were some problems between your

25 command, Pandurevic, colonel, with this first lieutenant, Drago Nikolic;

Page 2737

1 is that correct?

2 A. Mr. Karnavas, I said that certain problems arose in the winter of

3 1994, if I remember correctly.

4 Q. All right. And why did those problems come up? What was the

5 problem? What caused this discontent?

6 A. Well, not to speak in general terms, at one point

7 Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic was not satisfied with the method of work of

8 Lieutenant Colonel Drago Nikolic, and he ordered him, in future -- he said

9 that Nikolic couldn't use the brigade stamp in future to accompany his

10 signature, that no documents should go out from the brigade command

11 encrypted without the commander's signature, and some similar things. If

12 you want, I can go through them.

13 Q. He was trying to control Nikolic, as I indicated earlier, control

14 his actions and his behaviour.

15 A. The commander, in a way, was already commanding Nikolic. But he

16 wanted to bring him under absolute authority or control. So Nikolic

17 wasn't some paramilitary, to use the term.

18 Q. All right. But he was a member of the security organ. He was

19 chief of the security organ.

20 A. Yes, he was. He was the assistant commander of Pandurevic for

21 security.

22 Q. And in fact his mail could go out without -- and his reports could

23 go out without his commander reviewing his reports; isn't that correct?

24 A. Mr. Karnavas, yes, they could, but then, as I said a moment ago,

25 Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic put a stop to that, ordered that that

Page 2738

1 practice be stopped.

2 Q. And then was that before or after the Mladic instruction, where he

3 set out, in detail, how he wished the commanders to be operating with the

4 security organs?

5 A. I really don't know whether conditionally speaking that conflict

6 had any influence on the issuance of this instruction. But before we in

7 the brigade received a similar paper of this kind, we didn't receive this

8 order or instruction from the Main Staff, but I think that it was a

9 similar instruction from the Drina Corps command, in actual fact.

10 Q. Okay. Now, in your statement that you gave back on 4 June 2003,

11 page 87, lines 27 to 29, you say, in response to a question from

12 Peter McCloskey: "Security officers sent the reports that even commander

13 didn't have an access to them." Do you recall making that -- stating

14 that?

15 A. Mr. Karnavas, I didn't say that the security officer sent reports.

16 What I said was that the -- not that the intelligence officer, but that

17 the security officer did.

18 Q. If I said intelligence, I apologise. It says here: "Security

19 officers sent their reports that even commander didn't have an access to

20 them." Page 87, lines 28 to 29. Do you recall stating that?

21 A. Yes, I do recall stating that.

22 Q. And in fact, going on into the following page, page 88, lines 1

23 through 3, you say: "As the report from the security organs are the

24 reports that he sent to the security officer in the corps. It went

25 exclusively along their chain, and they didn't have to take it to the

Page 2739

1 brigade commander to take a look." Do you recall making that statement?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Okay. Now, did this situation ever resolve itself between

4 Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic and Lieutenant Nikolic? Did they ever

5 resolve their differences, come to some kind of understanding?

6 A. After a similar instruction arrived of the type I described a

7 moment ago, Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic had to withdraw his order, the

8 order he had given previously to the chief of the encryption office, and

9 Drago Nikolic could do what I just said there, that is, to send out those

10 reports.

11 Q. So a lieutenant could send the reports that his commander, a

12 lieutenant colonel, could not see; he could send them directly to his

13 chain within the security organ?

14 A. Mr. Karnavas, if I might be allowed to say the following: The

15 fact that he was second lieutenant doesn't matter. His rights didn't

16 emanate from him being a second lieutenant and Pandurevic being lieutenant

17 colonel, but because Drago Nikolic was chief of security. That's where

18 his rights emanated from regardless of rank. Rank was irrelevant in this

19 instance.

20 Q. You're right, and in fact this lieutenant could even arrest his

21 own commander, who was a lieutenant colonel; right?

22 A. I can't give you an affirmative answer to that. Probably the

23 decision should be taken at least by the corps commander. I'm not quite

24 sure that Nikolic could make the decision to arrest Lieutenant Colonel

25 Pandurevic on his own. Perhaps --

Page 2740

1 Q. Could Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic arrest Nikolic? Did he have

2 that authority?

3 A. In general terms, yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, you indicate also in your statement - and I'm reading

5 from page 90 - you were asked a question by Peter McCloskey, and you

6 say -- this is with respect to vehicles, because earlier you indicate that

7 they had their own vehicles, and you say: "Yes, but that vehicle was part

8 of the headquarters's command and would be allocated according to the plan

9 and the need, and the Superior Command would give it to them - when I say

10 them, I'm referring to the security officer - put on their disposal the

11 vehicle because they considered that their work was -- that their line of

12 work required independence."

13 Now, what do you mean that they considered that their line of work

14 required independence? What are we talking about, this independence?

15 Could you help us out?

16 A. Well, Mr. Karnavas, it's like this: The essence of what I was

17 saying and what you just quoted is that the security organ of the Zvornik

18 Brigade had at its disposal its own vehicle, not a civilian vehicle but an

19 army vehicle. And it was considered that this vehicle of the security

20 organ was -- the security organ's as opposed to other vehicles in the

21 staff command used by the command headquarters. So that vehicle was used

22 pursuant to a decision made by Drago Nikolic. And when I said the

23 Superior Command, when I said "them," I meant the security sector of the

24 Drina Corps command, for them, in this way, to ensure the independence of

25 the work of the security organs in the command of the Zvornik Brigade.

Page 2741

1 Q. And also, just to nail one point down. I believe you state on

2 page 90, lines 1 to 2, that no one could open the mail of the security

3 officer. Do you still -- do you recall making that statement?

4 A. Yes, I did say that, Mr. Karnavas, except the person it was

5 addressed to, of course. So Nikolic could open his own mail.

6 Q. Well, of course. But Pandurevic, his commander, could not open

7 the mail that was directed to the security organ?

8 A. If, on the envelope, Mr. Karnavas, it said: "to Lieutenant

9 Colonel Drago Nikolic in person," then mail of that kind had to go to

10 Drago Nikolic.

11 Q. And his commander could not open it up, take a little peek, see

12 what's in it, and give it to him?

13 A. No, he could not. You're quite right on that score.

14 Q. Just as, conversely, when Nikolic was sending his stuff, his

15 reports, his mail, to his -- to the security organ of the corps, the Main

16 Staff, again, Pandurevic did not have the opportunity to look at it, see

17 what's inside, before it went off, by courier or whatever means it went,

18 up the chain of command to the security organ?

19 A. Well, Mr. Karnavas, as we've already said, Nikolic was duty-bound

20 in the extent to which he considered the information that was being sent

21 out, or to the extent to which Colonel Popovic had ordered this, that he

22 should inform Colonel Pandurevic thereof, then he should have done that,

23 and probably he did do that. And he sent out the report, as you yourself

24 said.

25 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to the military police, as I understand

Page 2742

1 it, there were times when the security organ could use the military police

2 for various tasks. It's a general statement. We'll get to the specific.

3 A. Generally speaking, yes.

4 Q. Okay. And of course, you would agree with me, would you not, that

5 the military police was an asset, a resource, that belonged to and

6 controlled by the commander of the brigade? Correct?

7 A. You're right, yes.

8 Q. So if the rules were to be applied as they were meant to be and as

9 they were written, then the head of the security organ, the chief of the

10 security organ, could not, or at least should not, use the military police

11 for whatever reason without getting prior clearance from the commander?

12 A. You're right. Commanding in the army is based on the singleness

13 of command.

14 Q. Explain that to us. I'm glad you mentioned that. Explain that to

15 us so we can all understand what exactly that concept means. Seriously.

16 A. Well, in layman's terms, one man commands. There is one man who

17 is in command, according to the rules, as you've just said.

18 Q. And why is that important in an institution such as the military?

19 Why not have two commanders at the same time, as it would appear that the

20 Drina Corps had on the night of the 13th, at least?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the --

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- Little commentary. Completely unnecessary, not

24 true, and gratuitous.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it's --

Page 2743

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, the problem of this question is too common, you

2 know. It's common knowledge. We don't have to prove that in the

3 courtroom.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

5 JUDGE LIU: If you have a specific question, just ask this

6 witness.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

8 Q. Now, were there occasions when your security officer, the head of

9 the security organ of the Zvornik Brigade, would task the military police

10 without getting prior clearance from the commander or the deputy

11 commander?

12 A. Mr. Karnavas, if I remember correctly, there were some minor

13 things, yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now, when you say "minor," help us out here. What does

15 that mean? What do you mean by that?

16 A. Well, for example, if they needed to send a patrol to take

17 somebody into custody or to control the traffic, for example, or something

18 similar, from similar domains, that's the best I can come up with.

19 Q. Okay. What about if they were engaged in what is referred to as

20 counter-intelligence? Have you ever heard of that term,

21 counter-intelligence?

22 A. Yes, I have heard of that.

23 Q. And that was a function that was carried out by the security

24 organ, was it not?

25 A. Yes, it was.

Page 2744

1 Q. And in fact, when they carried out counter-intelligence tasks,

2 those would be among the areas which the security organ within a brigade

3 did not have to inform the commander and could just communicate directly

4 through the -- through a separate chain of command to the security organ

5 of the corps, and if necessary, the Main Staff?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's compound. It assumes facts not in

9 evidence. If there's a separate chain of command.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: He's going to elucidate for us. He's going to give

11 us the answer, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well --

13 MR. KARNAVAS: If he knows.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe you could ask a very simple question, to

15 the point.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: All right.

17 Q. Would counter-intelligence information, or tasks, be included in

18 some of that mail that the security organ was sending, sealed, which was

19 not available for the commander's review before it went to the corps?

20 A. Probably yes, to a great measure.

21 Q. Okay. Now, were they required, if the security organ, the chief

22 of the security of the brigade was tasked by the security organ of the

23 Drina Corps with a counter-intelligence mission, if I can call it that,

24 were they required to go to the commander and say -- and tell them exactly

25 what mission they had been given by the corps?

Page 2745

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. This is a hypothetical, which is fine,

3 but it needs to be based on facts in the -- that are relevant to this

4 case. If he wants to use prisoners or some other fact that's relevant to

5 this case, I haven't found any counter-intelligence yet that is relevant

6 to this case. If there is some counter-intelligence fact that is, then

7 that's appropriate for such a hypothetical.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with the Prosecution.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

10 Q. Under the rules, under the rules, was a security organ required to

11 give -- to disclose their counter-intelligence missions given to them by

12 the security organ from above to their commanders?

13 A. Mr. Karnavas, as I've already stated, in the extent to which this

14 was deemed necessary by Lieutenant Colonel Drago Nikolic or Popovic, that

15 the commander should be informed. So then if this was considered to be a

16 vital piece of intelligence for the unit, then they would; otherwise they

17 would not.

18 Q. You seem to be indicating that the discretion lay with the chief

19 of the security organ. He would make that decision, whether his commander

20 would know or not know. Am I correct?

21 A. You could say that, yes.

22 Q. Okay. Now, under the rules, if the security organ, the chief of

23 the security organ of the brigade, was instructed by the security organ of

24 the corps not to disclose any information to the commander, could the

25 commander compel his chief of security to disclose it nonetheless? Could

Page 2746

1 he force him?

2 A. This seems to me to be an impossible situation. If the security

3 officer said nothing, then how could the commander know that anything was

4 there to be disclosed?

5 Q. Precisely. Precisely. Now, I'm going to read a portion from a

6 statement taken by the Prosecution of Mirko Jankovic.

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, are we still on the same subject?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: We're on the same subject with respect to the use

9 of the military police. We will find out that Mirko Jankovic, in his

10 statement, informed the Prosecution --

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go back slightly to another issue, and

13 if we could go into private session to discuss it, I would appreciate it.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I'd like to know what the issue is, Your Honour,

15 because -- if he could give me a hint, at least I would know what issue

16 he's referring to.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd like -- it's another issue that it's important

18 that we discuss, I think.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 2747

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13 Page 2747 redacted private session

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Page 2748

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14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Are you asking or are you telling me, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm just saying to the court deputy that we are

21 going to the --

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. I thought the question was directed to me.

23 JUDGE LIU: -- Open session. And we'll resume at 3.00.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.36 p.m.

Page 2749

1 --- On resuming at 3.02 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Karnavas.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Obrenovic.

5 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Karnavas.

6 Q. Okay. Now, before we turn our attention to a statement that was

7 given by a Mr. Jankovic, I would like to turn to a remark that you made

8 during your testimony back on October 2nd, the second day that you

9 testified. And this is with respect to the military police and the use of

10 resources. And for everyone's -- for the record, I'm referring to

11 page -- I'm afraid I'm using the unofficial version, and it's page 29.

12 And I'm going to read to you your testimony. You were asked -- and this

13 is starting with lines 10 through 17 -- through 15 or 16.

14 Q. Did he have any authority to tell you and actually

15 take these units?

16 This is in reference to Mr. Nikolic, and vis-a-vis the military

17 police.

18 A. He asked that of me.

19 Q. Yes, but militarily, did he have the authority to

20 take those units without asking you?

21 And your answer was:

22 A. No, he did not.

23 Do you recall giving that answer, that is, that Drago Nikolic did

24 not have the authority to take the military police units and use them

25 without prior approval? Do you recall stating that?

Page 2750

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Okay. Now, I want to point you at your -- at what you indicated

3 when you gave a statement back on June 4, 2003. And I'm referring to page

4 94, lines 27 to 33. And I'll read it back. Actually, I'm going to read

5 from line 15 for context. Peter McCloskey is asking the questions and

6 you're providing the answers:

7 Q. All right. And we have gone from one division to

8 another. Let me try to work my way back. While you were deputy commander

9 or standing in for the commander, or acting commander during this 1995

10 time period, you had experience dealing with Drago Nikolic from the

11 security. Was he up to anything significant that you didn't know about

12 it?"

13 And your answer was:

14 A. I don't know if he was up to something that I didn't

15 know. How could I -- how could I answer?

16 Q. Or did you have any suspicions that he was using

17 time you didn't know what he was doing?

18 And then it's unintelligible.

19 A. That's part of their job and I didn't have any

20 suspicious. That's what they were doing at the time. That's what

21 they -- that's what they are still doing.

22 Q. If he was to use your troops, your materiel, would

23 you know about it?

24 A. I would know if there was something significant, for

25 example, large --

Page 2751

1 And then it's unintelligible.

2 Do you recall being asked that question and giving -- being asked

3 these questions and giving these answers? And I'm particularly interested

4 in the last one, where you say: "I would know if there was something

5 significant." Do you recall stating that?

6 A. Mr. Karnavas, I do recall those questions posed to me by

7 Mr. McCloskey, yes.

8 Q. Okay. Now, from your statement that you gave to Mr. McCloskey,

9 the one that I just read, it would appear, does it not, that you are

10 implying that if the security officer used several men, or even a squad of

11 men, you would not necessarily know or be expected to know about it?

12 Could you be implying that, or can we make any inference?

13 A. Well, there are several questions included there, as far as I

14 understand. However, before the break, I gave a rough reply, at least, to

15 this question. Like I said then, something insignificant - maybe that's

16 not a very good expression - but if there was to be a control of a moving

17 vehicle, if he wanted to bring someone in, or something like that, that's

18 what I was talking about a moment ago. Then Drago Nikolic himself, or

19 another security officer, probably wouldn't have been after that, because

20 that was part of their regular duties. This is no serious engagement for

21 any of the units. So that's my answer.

22 Q. Okay. All right.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: One second, Your Honour. I'm tangled up here.

24 Q. Okay. Now, now let's turn our attention to a statement that was

25 given by a Mr. Jankovic. And so if I could show you what has been marked

Page 2752

1 for identification purposes as -- it hasn't -- it has not been marked, I'm

2 told. So this might be, I believe, 52. Mr. Registrar, if you could

3 assist here?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Karnavas, if I can assist here. It should be

5 D54.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: 53 maybe?

7 THE REGISTRAR: D53. I'm sorry.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right. Well, thank you.

9 Q. Now, if I could turn your attention -- oh, well, if we can all

10 turn our attention to pages 53 and 54, starting with 53. It would be line

11 24 and all the way, I believe, to line 4. Or we can go all the way to

12 line 10, just to make sure that it's not taken out of context. And let me

13 read this to you. This is a -- as we indicated, Mr. -- The gentleman was

14 being questioned by the Prosecution. He was the chief of the Bratunac

15 military police at the time. And he's asked a question by the Prosecution

16 investigator: "Who gave you the instructions to escort these people from

17 this elementary school out of Bratunac?" That's page 53, line 24, 25.

18 Answer on page 54:

19 A. "Not from the elementary school in Bratunac, but

20 from the mechanical, the engineering school for Bratunac."

21 Q. Who gave you the instructions?

22 A. Mladic personally ordered Popovic and myself.

23 Q. And before undertaking this task, did you tell your

24 superior commander where you were going and what you were going to be

25 doing?

Page 2753

1 A. I did.

2 Q. So you informed Nikolic.

3 Nikolic being Momir Nikolic of the Bratunac Brigade, chief of

4 security.

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And was he in agreement with this decision?

7 Answer, and this is line 11:

8 A. This guy is superior to him. He was a higher rank

9 in the corps, so Nikolic is subordinated to him.

10 Before I ask my next question, I would also direct our attention

11 to what he says on page 62 of the same interview, and I'm reading from

12 lines 21 to 24. Well, let me go through line 19.

13 Q. Did Popovic tell you what was the reason for these

14 people to be handed over to these other soldiers??

15 A. That's what this order was. That's what Mladic

16 said, and that's also what Popovic said, that these people need to be

17 transferred to Muslim-held territory and that from there, from that place,

18 it's not far to the line of separation, it's not that far, quite close,

19 and that from there, they would be taken in groups and handed over.

20 Now, it would appear, from what Mr. Jankovic is saying, the chief

21 of the military police of the Bratunac Brigade, that he is being given a

22 direct order by Mladic himself, General Mladic, who is the head of the VRS

23 forces at the time. And also, at the same time, Mladic was directing

24 Popovic, who is from the Drina Corps, the security organ. Is that

25 correct?

Page 2754

1 A. Well, on the basis of what you just read back to me, I don't know.

2 I was not in Bratunac myself. If I understood correctly what you just

3 read back to me, well ...

4 Q. Mr. Obrenovic, I'm not implying that you were there. I just want

5 to make sure that you understand at least the context of what I've read.

6 It would appear, from what I read -- I'm not saying whether it's true or

7 whether it's false or whether you were there. No need to try to read into

8 the question. All I'm saying is based on what I read, would it not appear

9 that what Jankovic, the chief of the military police of the Bratunac

10 Brigade, is telling the OTP, that Mladic himself gave him a direct order?

11 Would that -- can we conclude that that's what it appears Mr. Jankovic is

12 saying?

13 A. Yes, the way you've read it, yes. But I'm not familiar with the

14 position of chief of the military police. There was no chief in Zvornik,

15 as such. There was the commander of the military police and the head was

16 actually the chief of the security unit. But maybe there's been a

17 misinterpretation here.

18 Q. All right. Well, let's just say commander. But it has nothing to

19 do with Zvornik. There's no need to read into the question. I just want

20 to establish the basis that your understanding of what I read, it seems

21 that this individual, Jankovic, whatever his position may have been in the

22 Bratunac Brigade - and we do know that he was the commander of the

23 military police - was being ordered directly by Mladic. That's -- so can

24 we agree that that's what it would appear from what is in his statement?

25 A. That's what you've just read back, yes.

Page 2755

1 Q. Okay. Now, let's assume that that is correct, that Mr. Jankovic

2 was ordered by General Mladic himself, personally, and at the same time,

3 he's being ordered by -- he's ordering Popovic; Mladic is ordering

4 Popovic. Is that consistent with the rules as you know them? In other

5 words, did Mladic have the authority to give a direct order to the

6 commander of the military police of a brigade, without having to go down

7 the chain of command, ask the commander of the brigade?

8 A. I believe is that if you stick to the rules rigorously, this is

9 not exactly in compliance with the rules. But in view of the situation

10 that was in place, I can't rule out the possibility that Mladic could have

11 ordered anyone anything.

12 Q. All right. Well, is it possible -- assuming that this situation

13 occurred the way Mr. Jankovic is describing it, how is it possible for the

14 commander of the brigade to know what Mladic is up to with his men?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. This is so speculative that -- and

16 it's really not up to this witness. I think this is the Court's decision,

17 actually.

18 JUDGE LIU: I agree, Mr. Karnavas. I know that you have a point

19 here, but I wonder whether this witness is a right witness.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Your Honour, I was trying to establish the

21 background through his earlier statements, but I'll go about it in another

22 way.

23 Q. Could you -- let's assume that Mladic wanted to use these two

24 individuals, Popovic of the corps, and Jankovic of the brigade. Under the

25 rules, as you know them, what would have been the correct procedure? What

Page 2756

1 should Mladic have done under these circumstances if he needed to use

2 these resources, which obviously belong to units subordinate to him?

3 A. Mr. Karnavas, General Mladic would have needed to order the corps

4 commander, and then the corps commander would have issued an order to the

5 brigade commander. So first the corps commander to get the chief of

6 security, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, involved. And the commander of the

7 Bratunac Brigade, Colonel Blagojevic, would have been ordered to get

8 Petrovic involved in this. However, everything being as you've just read

9 out, the duties of those two men were to report to their immediate

10 superiors as soon as possible, on receiving orders, the orders received by

11 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, his duty would have been, as soon as possible,

12 to report to General Zivanovic or General Krstic, or whoever was his

13 immediate commander. And the other person you referred to would also have

14 been duty-bound to report to his commander. This is a rule included in

15 the book of rules.

16 Q. Would that reporting have to occur before they execute the task

17 that Mladic issued, or ordered them to do, or after? In other words,

18 could they say to the general: Excuse me, Mr. General Mladic, but I got a

19 report. And then assuming that I get the authorisation, I'll comply with

20 your order.

21 A. Again, the only thing I can offer is my own interpretation, based

22 on the assumption that you have provided. If I remember correctly, the

23 rules of service clearly state as soon as possible, as soon as reporting

24 is possible. At the same time, on the basis of what I myself heard and

25 read about the procedures applied by General Mladic and his actions, I'm

Page 2757

1 rather inclined to say they would have been in no position to say this

2 loud and clear in front of him: "Sir, General, please allow me to first

3 report to my commander." But bear in mind, please, this is only my

4 interpretation of the situation you have given.

5 Q. Right. And I take it your interpretation is based on your

6 experience and, let's say, knowledge of General Mladic, his general

7 personality?

8 A. Mr. Karnavas, in view of my own position and duty, for most of the

9 duration of the war I was chief of staff, and I was not very often in

10 touch with General Mladic, only a very few times. This is only gleaned

11 from the general atmosphere surrounding the whole situation. I may have

12 met him personally several times, only very briefly.

13 Q. Okay. So you're telling us you cannot give us an opinion on that.

14 I'll move on.

15 Since Mladic gave this order to Commander Jankovic of the military

16 police of the Bratunac Brigade, at that moment, is Mr. Jankovic under

17 Mladic's authority? Who is commanding him at that moment?

18 A. Establishment-wise, it would have been his own commander, but this

19 order was given to him by General Mladic.

20 Q. If you could run that by me again. I'm a little tired.

21 A. So, Petrovic, I think you said the name was Petrovic,.

22 Q. Jankovic.

23 A. Jankovic, yes, his commander continued to be his commander

24 establishment-wise, the commander of the Bratunac Brigade. And the

25 specific order for a specific activity was obviously given to him by

Page 2758

1 General Mladic himself.

2 Q. Okay. So is he under the command of General Mladic at this point

3 in time, while he's executing this particular order that was directly

4 ordered by General Mladic?

5 A. At that moment, as he was carrying out the order, yes.

6 Q. Okay. All right. Now, if I could go to a segment of your

7 statement with respect to your own police platoon. As I understand your

8 testimony here and in a statement that you gave earlier, at some point, I

9 believe it might have been the 12th, but I might be off a little bit on

10 the dates. 11th or 12th. A military -- a police platoon, a military

11 police platoon from the Zvornik Brigade, went to Konjevic Polje, am I

12 correct, to assist in the trafficking or the traffic, controlling of the

13 road?

14 A. This is only partially true. It wasn't a platoon. It was just a

15 traffic squad, or half a squad maybe. Let's say a squad. They went to

16 Konjevic Polje.

17 Q. Okay. And how many folks are in a squad? How many?

18 A. I'd expect about eight.

19 Q. Okay. All right. So about eight of your men, your men, were over

20 there in Konjevic Polje?

21 A. As I said, one squad, or maybe half a squad, they went in a car,

22 maybe five or six of them, as many as could fit in a car.

23 Q. All right. Now, I want to read a portion of your statement, and

24 maybe you can help us out here a little bit. I'm reading from page 119,

25 lines 20, from Mr. Obrenovic's statement taken on 4 June 2003. He's being

Page 2759

1 questioned by Peter McCloskey:

2 Q. Did they report back to you or to Drago Nikolic

3 during these days, or anyone in the command?

4 A. I don't think they were reporting to anyone to the

5 command. I think that they were subordinated to someone up there.

6 Q. Whom?

7 A. Probably someone in the corps.

8 Do you recall being asked those questions and giving those

9 answers?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Okay. Now, I don't want to complicate matters, but are you not in

12 fact asserting that, at least with respect to these events here, that the

13 corps was running the show and taking command and control of subordinate

14 units of lower echelon units, such as the Zvornik Brigade?

15 A. Mr. Karnavas, I explained precisely what it was in the specific

16 case. We received a written order, which was provided to my team by the

17 Prosecutor in a CD. A squad or half a squad was to go to Konjevic Polje

18 to control traffic. And I also said that upon their return - I don't know

19 when they returned, I had lost track of that - but when the squad

20 returned, they probably informed Jasikovac, or perhaps even Drago Nikolic,

21 but probably they informed Jasikovac as to where they had gone to and what

22 they had done there. And back in Konjevic Polje, as I said, they were

23 subordinated to whoever issued their tasks.

24 Q. Well, but these are your men. You sent them off. Aren't you told

25 at some point who are they supposed to report to and who is going to be

Page 2760

1 issuing them the tasks, into which unit they're going to be subordinated

2 to?

3 A. It was stated in the same order to the person they were being sent

4 to in Konjevic Polje.

5 Q. Okay. And was that the corps?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now, was this -- this area that they were controlling, was

8 that part of the Zvornik Brigade zone of operation?

9 A. No, Mr. Karnavas. If I remember rightly, Konjevic Polje was in

10 the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Most probably. The Zvornik area ended at the River Drinjaca.

13 Q. Okay. The zone of operation. We're not talking about

14 responsibility now. The zone of operation, as it is specified under the

15 rules. Okay. Now, I want to -- but just to -- before I move on: It

16 would appear that at this point, for this particular task, your troops,

17 your military police, were working for the corps. They're subordinated to

18 the corps.

19 A. Obviously.

20 Q. And can we draw some conclusion that since they were subordinated

21 to the corps, at least for that task, whatever task they were engaged in,

22 the corps was involved, was in control, or command and control of the

23 subordinates that were used in those tasks?

24 A. Yes, yes, one can draw such a conclusion.

25 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go to another section of your statement, and

Page 2761

1 it's page 110, lines 10 to 26. I don't know if you have your version in

2 B/C/S, but I can read it. It's not a big section. But maybe you can --

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Maybe I can -- well, it's a short section, and I'll go

5 slowly, and it's not a terribly complex issue, or at least I think it's

6 not. Peter McCloskey again is asking you questions, all right:

7 Q. Okay. The MUP were under the command of the army at

8 this time; is that right?

9 That was the question. Now, MUP are the civilian police?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. That's it.

13 Q. Here's your answer, and I'm reading from 110 again. That was line

14 10 that I just read. Line 12: "On the 19th, I don't think that it was

15 (unintelligible) we were conducting the sweeps separately. After the

16 corridor was closed, each group was conducting its sweeps separately.

17 Already on the 18th, and further (unintelligible) on the 22nd there was a

18 joint operation between the asphalt road and the gravel road in which

19 combined units participated." Question by Peter McCloskey: "It is hard

20 for me to imagine the MUP working in the same woods that you are working

21 in without being under the control of the army. That would be very

22 dangerous for both of you." Answer: "You are correct, but it was

23 separate."

24 Do you recall being asked those questions and giving these

25 answers?

Page 2762

1 A. Yes, this question was put to me by Mr. McCloskey and I replied as

2 you read out.

3 Q. Okay. So at least with respect to that particular task that you

4 were describing or being -- or discussing with Mr. McCloskey, you are

5 asserting, quite directly, if I might say, that the command and control of

6 the MUP was separate from the army, the VRS. With respect to that limited

7 searching in the woods. I'm not talking about some other area, but just

8 this one right here.

9 A. Mr. Karnavas, if you will allow me. Mr. McCloskey asked me about

10 the sweep of the terrain after the closing of the corridor in the area of

11 Krizevici, as far as Snagovo, and we commented on an intercept that was

12 connected to this, I think. This is what you've just read out.

13 Q. Right. And I guess the point that I'm trying to make is: When

14 Mr. McCloskey obviously is very interested to know with respect to that

15 operation whether MUP was subordinate, had been subordinated to you, to

16 the army. I mean, that's the gist of his -- that's what he's trying to

17 get at. And as I understand your answer, you're saying: No. We're

18 working together, but they're not under the VRS, under your command. Am I

19 correct?

20 A. The fact of the matter is as follows: On the 15th, at the meeting

21 in the brigade command, part of the MUP units were put under the command

22 of Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, on the basis of an agreement between him

23 and Borovcanin, and it was Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic who commanded

24 those forces, and that's what I said. After the corridor was closed, it

25 was probably Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic and Borovcanin who came to an

Page 2763

1 agreement and formed a staff for combing the terrain, and it was agreed

2 that the Army of Republika Srpska, or the units deployed north of the

3 Zvornik-Crni Vrh road should sweep Krizevici and Baljkovica to the right

4 of the road in order to avoid confusion and the MUP units who were there

5 were to comb the terrain to the left, or rather to the south of the

6 asphalt road I've just mentioned, in the direction of Snagovo, and deeper,

7 where they were moving. And the asphalt road was the border, and this was

8 taken by our battalion, and the unit that arrived from Bratunac. They

9 were on that road. And that's what the situation was. And that's why I

10 said that those who were combing the southern part were under the command

11 of the MUP in Zvornik. So the task was actually well regulated, and it

12 was the task that actually showed whether the MUP was under the control or

13 not.

14 Q. Okay. I guess what I'm trying to get a handle on this: There's

15 one particular task. It seems that you have a civilian unit, MUP; you

16 have a military unit, yours; and you're working on the same tasks, but one

17 is not subordinate or not in command of the other. Do I have it

18 correctly?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that is a misstatement of the

21 facts, of the evidence. The MUP is not a civilian unit, as I think has

22 been established. There are civilian police officers MUP, there are

23 Borovcanin's MUP. I mean, that's just not --

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I would love to debate this point, but this is not

25 the time. But that is -- that is incorrect. They're under the civilian

Page 2764

1 authorities. Now, we're going to talk about subordination and

2 re-subordination, but it is civilian. It's not military. I can ask the

3 gentleman the question. I think he would help me out. In fact as I

4 believe he already indicated that MUP was civilian, if we go back in the

5 transcript.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well Mr. McCloskey, there's no time for you to argue

7 with the Prosecution about this issue. I think if you have some doubts,

8 or somebody has some doubts, that you have the obligation to clear it up

9 by asking questions to this witness.

10 MR. KARNAVAS:

11 Q. Mr. Obrenovic, was the MUP a military unit? Yes or no.

12 A. No.

13 Q. You're sure about that?

14 A. Mr. Karnavas, a military unit, I don't know whether that's the

15 proper term, but MUP means Ministry of the Interior, which is a very broad

16 concept.

17 Q. Okay. And was the Ministry of the Interior part of the civilian

18 authorities or part of the military authorities?

19 A. It's part of the civilian authorities.

20 Q. Thank you. And so you have the MUP, which is part of -- which is

21 part of the civilian authorities, working in conjunction with the Zvornik

22 Brigade, which is a military unit, on a particular task where one is not

23 subordinate to the other, am I correct, with respect to this very narrow

24 issue that we're discussing here today?

25 A. I have to tell you again that this was solved on a case-by-case

Page 2765

1 basis.

2 Q. Okay. And on this particular case, because I'm not talking about

3 some other case; I'm talking about the case that I read, the one that

4 Mr. McCloskey asked you about and the one to which you answered. On this

5 particular case, is it not a fact that MUP, with the Zvornik Brigade, were

6 working side by side and not one underneath the other? Yes or no.

7 A. In this particular case, combing the terrain we have just

8 mentioned, the MUP was not subordinated to the Zvornik Brigade. It

9 operated in a separate zone, and I explained very precisely in geographic

10 terms where they were.

11 Q. Okay. I think we got the point.

12 All right. Now, I have -- I thought maybe you could help me out

13 with one particular term that's in Colonel Blagojevic's order. So if I

14 could point your direction to D17/1 for identification purposes, or it

15 might be in already as an exhibit. And if you could look at 5.5. Just

16 look at it, glance at it, and tell me if you've ever seen or if you

17 understand what do these letters L/RTT, what does that refer to?

18 A. Mr. Karnavas, I have here command of the 1st Bratunac Brigade

19 order by the commander, number -- order for active combat actions number

20 1. And 5.5 is part of the commander's decision. It says reconnaissance

21 platoon of the brigade, with LR. This means separation line. And then it

22 says which one. So the platoon goes in a column, and then, at this line

23 of deployment, LR --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects herself. So, it's not

25 the separation line. It's the line of deployment.

Page 2766

1 A. This is where they go from.

2 MR. KARNAVAS:

3 Q. Okay. Well, could that also mean a reconnaissance platoon of a

4 brigade, one which had a rocket launcher? Could that -- could we -- could

5 this have a -- that kind of meaning as well? It's not a trick question.

6 I'm just asking you.

7 A. It could mean laser rocket, for all I know.

8 Q. Okay. Well --

9 A. But if we read the whole sentence, reconnaissance platoon with a

10 rocket launcher, trigonometre 707, then it doesn't make sense. If,

11 however, we read it as follows: Reconnaissance platoon from the

12 deployment line, trig point 707, radonjic [phoen] that means left, attacks

13 en route, well, that's how I would read it.

14 Q. And I take it if you were to look at --

15 A. But it could mean -- it could mean launcher.

16 Q. Okay. All right. Now, what was your relationship with the

17 commander of the Bratunac Brigade during that period of time, July -- or

18 leading up to July 1995, you know, while you were the chief of staff and

19 Colonel Blagojevic was the commander of the Bratunac Brigade? What -- did

20 you have some kind of a relationship?

21 A. Mr. Karnavas, in that period, I hadn't seen Colonel Blagojevic for

22 a long time. As I said, in the springtime I was wounded, I was on sick

23 leave, then I got back, and there was a lot of action around Srebrenica

24 and he probably went out into the field. And we only met up again in

25 November 1995. As I told Mr. McCloskey in my response to his question, I

Page 2767

1 was acquainted with Colonel Blagojevic. He worked in the corps command,

2 and we would meet. And I think our relations were correct, but we didn't

3 know each other especially well. It was a superficial acquaintance.

4 Q. Okay. And I take it during this critical period that we've been

5 discussing, either you didn't have a need to or the opportunity to come

6 into contact with Colonel Blagojevic.

7 A. No. You are right. I didn't contact him.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm pleased to announce that, as

9 promised, I am through with my cross-examination, a little bit longer than

10 I wanted to, but ...

11 Oh, I should note for the record that the June 4, 2003 statement

12 is D52/1 for identification purposes. I apologise for not making the

13 record clear. So I have no further questions at this moment.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

15 Any cross-examination, Ms. Sinatra?

16 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I was wondering if I might have a

17 moment to organise my thoughts, or if we could continue at 2.00 tomorrow.

18 I promise I'll be finished in tomorrow and Thursday, during those days.

19 So Friday we have redirect and questions from the Bench.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, we still have 40 minutes. I think it's too long

21 to have a break. Why not you start right now and see how far you could

22 go? I believe that before the cross-examination you have some questions

23 about the background, the foundation issues. Why not use this moment?

24 Because 40 minutes is a long period of time.

25 MS. SINATRA: I really don't have background information, and I

Page 2768

1 worked with the audiovisual department to have the camera set up for the

2 model I was going to use. And my first line of questioning was building

3 the foundation for the model. But Mr. Karnavas assured me he would use

4 all the time today. It would take us a few minutes to get set up, if the

5 Trial Chamber would allow me to ask AV to come in and try to get all this

6 set up again. We marked it here so that we would have it first thing

7 tomorrow.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, I wonder whether if we could have it set up in

9 10 minutes, so at least we have 30 minutes this afternoon.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. I believe we probably could.

11 I'm assuming that the AV department is willing to come set it up for us.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll have a short break until 4.00.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

14 --- Break taken at 3.51 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra, you may begin.

17 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honours, for being so tolerant with

18 the theatrics that we have in the courtroom. I would like to spend the

19 next few moments laying the foundation for the use of this model. I would

20 also like to ask the Court to consider the use of this model under the

21 Rules of Evidence, 89, and also Rule 98, to allow the Trial Chamber to

22 allow for additional evidence in the courtroom. I'd like to start with

23 introducing to the Court, which I don't have copies - I promise to provide

24 tomorrow - which are the original -- this would be D -- marked for

25 identification purposes only as D7. These are the original architectural

Page 2769

1 drawings and mechanical drawings from the Standard factory, which is a

2 shoe factory, in the municipality of Zvornik, which was used for

3 headquarters, Zvornik Brigade headquarters, and I will elicit this

4 testimony from Mr. Obrenovic in a moment but I wanted to get the documents

5 out of the way first if the Court would tolerate this.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you. Before you start, could I ask you a

7 question? Are you going to use these kind of mechanisms tomorrow?

8 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, I am. And I probably will use it

9 all through the cross, and I encourage the Prosecution and other Defence

10 counsel to utilise the model in the courtroom throughout the rest of the

11 trial, if they choose to.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this moment, I'd just advise you that

13 tomorrow morning this courtroom may be used for another purpose. So I

14 hope that before we start tomorrow afternoon, everything will be in place.

15 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. We have it taped and marked and

16 they can move the camera on short notice, and the model exhibit is on

17 rollers, so it will roll to the side of the courtroom.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 MS. SINATRA: Thank you very much. I also would like to -- for

20 the Court's permission, which Mr. McCloskey and opposing counsel except

21 for Mr. Karnavas have seen, is the curriculum vitae of the model builder,

22 Mr. Postma. I didn't think it was possible to call him as a witness. He

23 has a letter of the dimensions and proportions of the model built in here.

24 The photographs that he used were 1:200 scale and the model itself is

25 built on a 1:100 scale. So if I might introduce now what's been marked

Page 2770

1 for identification as D8, which is the curriculum vitae and information of

2 the model builder. Thank you. We will provide copies of all that

3 tomorrow.

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Sinatra:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Obrenovic.

6 A. Good afternoon, Ms. Sinatra.

7 Q. Dobar dan. I have given you a chance earlier to have a look at

8 this model and I gave you the plans of the model that you were able to

9 take at your break and inspect. Does this model accurately reflect the

10 way the Zvornik Brigade headquarters looked in 1995?

11 A. Ms. Sinatra, excuse me. Today, during one of the breaks, I spent

12 about ten minutes looking at this model, and as I said then, I'm no

13 architect myself, I'm no engineer, but roughly speaking, this looks like

14 it, at least from the outside. This looks very much like the building

15 where the command was based in July 1995.

16 Q. Just for further identification purposes and for the purposes of

17 the Trial Chamber, Mr. Usher, I would like now to go through just a series

18 of photographs and use the ELMO, which are photographs of the -- well,

19 I'll let the witness identify these. We'll go through these. This will

20 be D25 and then it will be .1, .2, .3, as we go through. And this is the

21 exterior. This would be marked D25.1.

22 Mr. Obrenovic, can you identify this picture? I know it's kind of

23 difficult.

24 A. Ms. Sinatra, it appears that in this photograph marked as number

25 19, we can see the side of the building of the brigade headquarters, one

Page 2771

1 of its sides. This is from -- looking from the River Drina, and you can

2 see the south side of the building, the side facing south. At least,

3 that's how it appears to me.

4 Q. Do you still have your pointer on the witness stand?

5 A. You mean this?

6 Q. Just for -- I don't want you to switch back, but for the Trial

7 Chamber's information, could you point on the model where you think this

8 photograph is, which corner. Which direction is facing toward the Judges

9 right now, of the model?

10 A. Ms. Sinatra, I think this part here, this section. I can't be

11 sure, but that's what I think.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. SINATRA: And may the record reflect that the witness has

14 identified as facing the model to the right rear of the model.

15 And I'm sorry, Mr. Usher. May we have the next photograph,

16 please.

17 Q. Mr. Obrenovic, can you identify what this photograph is,

18 represents?

19 A. Ms. Sinatra, I believe that what I can see here is one of the

20 warehouses, or rather, hangars. The photo was taken from the rear, near

21 the Drina River, this photograph marked as 25. That's what I think it is.

22 So this is not the headquarters.

23 Q. No, it's not. It's one of the buildings that's not included in

24 the model; isn't that correct?

25 A. That's correct, yes.

Page 2772

1 MS. SINATRA: Can we have the next photograph, please. Actually,

2 if you go on to the next one. I think that's a duplicate. Yes.

3 Q. And Mr. Obrenovic, can you identify this photograph?

4 A. Ms. Sinatra, I'm looking at this photograph marked as 23. I

5 believe this is again the warehouse, what I see in front. At the back you

6 have the heating pipes, the steam heating. This thing at the front, this

7 may have been the workshop.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MS. SINATRA: And could we have the next photograph, please. I'm

10 sorry. I think that's a duplicate. Yes.

11 Q. Now, what does this photograph represent? If you can't identify

12 it, then that's all right, but I believe that it is taken from the Drina

13 side of the compound.

14 A. In photograph 20, I believe we are again looking at one section of

15 the brigade headquarters, the building, that is, looking from the Drina

16 River. I believe this is very much like the one we saw a moment ago.

17 MS. SINATRA: Could we have the next photograph, please. And I've

18 lost count, Mr. Registrar. It's 25. --?

19 THE REGISTRAR: This would be 25.4/3.

20 MS. SINATRA: Okay. Thank you very much.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Obrenovic, can you identify this photograph?

22 A. Ms. Sinatra, photograph number 26, the central portion of the

23 photograph, shows a road inside the barracks, part of the parking lot, and

24 to the left, the way I'm looking, I see a section of one of the warehouses

25 inside the factory compound. In the background, you can see a bus, I

Page 2773

1 think. And then some houses in the Karakaj village, and then the hills

2 behind.

3 Q. And, Mr. Obrenovic, the headquarters for the Zvornik Brigade is

4 located in a village called Karakaj; is that correct?

5 A. Ms. Sinatra, the Zvornik Brigade command was located in a building

6 inside the compound of the building you've mentioned. We called it

7 Standard, and the whole thing was in the village of Karakaj.

8 Q. And Standard stands for the Standard Shoe Manufacturing Company,

9 which was the manufacturing company in the building prior to you taking it

10 over as military headquarters; is that right?

11 A. I apologise, but your question has two parts, in a manner of

12 speaking, and I have to reply with two answers. The first part of the

13 question: It is true that there used to be a shoe manufacturer in these

14 premises called Standard. That was earlier. As for the second part of

15 your question, I did not set up the barracks or the command myself. When

16 I arrived at the scene, it was already there.

17 Q. The headquarters is referred to many times as Standard, and that

18 stands for the manufacturing company that was once present in the

19 building; is that right?

20 A. Ms. Sinatra, as far as I know, the command was called -- well, for

21 a while, at least, it was called the command of the 1st Light Infantry

22 Zvornik Brigade. After that it was called the command of the 1st Light

23 Infantry Brigade, and then some other people may have used the word

24 "Standard" to refer to the building. But establishment-wise it was

25 always the headquarters of the brigade.

Page 2774

1 Q. I heard you refer to the building as Standard, and that's why I

2 was trying to clarify it for the Trial Chamber. And Standard is a term

3 used throughout a lot of statements and many information reports. So just

4 for clarification for the Trial Chamber Standard is another term used for

5 the Zvornik Brigade headquarters because a manufacturing company used to

6 be there that was called Standard; is that right?

7 A. Ms. Sinatra, I don't think that's quite right. If we choose to

8 generalise like this, it would be more accurate to say that the term

9 "Standard" referred to the barracks, or the compound. So whatever was

10 inside the compound, people would say: In Standard. But the word

11 "Standard" cannot refer to the command because that was not the only thing

12 that was there. There were four or five other units too.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. SINATRA: Can we go on to the next photograph, please. This

15 would be marked D25.6/3.

16 Q. Mr. Obrenovic, can you identify the main headquarters building

17 from this photograph?

18 A. Ms. Sinatra, I'm looking at photograph number 28, and this appears

19 to have been taken from the north, facing south. There's a road with

20 these cars. And in the left corner I can see one section of the

21 warehouse. And you can see a building further down where the headquarters

22 of the brigade was, its northern and western face, if I've got my bearing

23 correctly. From the north, facing south.

24 Q. So if you were facing the back of the building, this would be the

25 right-hand side of the back of the building, or the side?

Page 2775

1 A. Ms. Sinatra, if I've got my bearings right, I think this is the

2 main facade of the building, this is the entrance, and this is the

3 northern face of the building. If you face it directly, what I said

4 before, this is the left hand part of the building, if I'm facing the

5 building, and this should be the entrance to the building. Yes, that

6 should be it, that's if I've got my bearings right.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 MS. SINATRA: And the next photograph, please.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Obrenovic, this is a photograph from the front of the

10 building?

11 A. It appears to be, yes.

12 Q. And the gate on your right, under the number 4, would be the gate

13 that goes out onto the main road between Zvornik and Bijeljina; is that

14 correct?

15 A. To the right I can see a section of another building, which may be

16 the building where the reporting officer used to be, or reception.

17 Q. But the road that goes from Zvornik to Bijeljina is behind the

18 gate to the right; is that correct?

19 A. Ms. Sinatra, I think this road runs parallel to this one.

20 Q. Thank you. That's the way I perceived it also. Now, from these

21 photographs, so that we don't have to go through a whole stack, is it your

22 opinion that the exterior of the model accurately represents the Zvornik

23 Brigade headquarters in 1995?

24 A. Ms. Sinatra, this is a rough rendering, yes. The floors are

25 correct. Truth to tell, I can't remember the exact number of windows that

Page 2776

1 were there. But roughly what I can see here, that might be it, yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. SINATRA: If I might ask the usher's assistance to turn the

4 model around, and we could get on the video monitor the front of the

5 building. If we could have the audiovisual operator. Thank you.

6 Your Honour, I hope you don't mind if we use the AV operator to

7 focus in the camera instead of the usher.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, of course. And before we leave the photos,

9 Ms. Sinatra, would you please tell me the author of these photos, I mean

10 who took these pictures.

11 MS. SINATRA: The photos were taken by our investigator in

12 Zvornik, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: And when?

14 MS. SINATRA: Well, a month ago.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

17 On the video monitor, could we get a front on the building now?

18 Okay. Thank you.

19 Q. Now, can you see the front of the building on your monitor,

20 Mr. Obrenovic?

21 A. Ms. Sinatra, this is a bird's eye view of the model, the bird-eye

22 view, I'd say, the front of the building with and the entrance and what

23 should be the roof, I assume.

24 Q. Yes. And Mr. Obrenovic, if I could have the usher's assistance to

25 turn the model around, and could we zoom in on the perspective that's

Page 2777

1 built into the model, which is on the back. No, no, no. Turn it around.

2 Mr. Obrenovic, I had you look at this perspective, which is just

3 built in as part of the back side of the model, today, didn't I?

4 A. Yes. Yes. I looked at it briefly.

5 Q. What does this small perspective of the Standard compound

6 represent to you? Can you describe the area and the compound for the

7 Trial Chamber, please.

8 A. Ms. Sinatra, this is probably a model built on a certain scale,

9 the factory we're talking about, the Standard shoe manufacturer, where

10 some of the units in the command of the Zvornik Brigade were stationed in

11 July 1995. Roughly speaking, I think it corresponds to that.

12 Q. Would you please use your photo -- I mean your pointer, and point

13 to the building that is represented here as the Zvornik Brigade

14 headquarters.

15 A. I believe this section of the model is the headquarters.

16 Q. And the road out front is the main highway between Zvornik and

17 Bijeljina, going north along the Drina River; is that correct?

18 A. That's one section of the road, yes. But not running parallel to

19 the River Drina, but rather outside the barracks. It was the barracks

20 that stood between the road and the river.

21 Q. And could you please point to the Drina River on the model.

22 A. Ms. Sinatra, it's difficult for me to say what this green colour

23 here stands for, if that's the river. But it was on this side from these

24 last buildings over here, there was an asphalt road, and after that there

25 was a belt, maybe between 50 and 70 metres wide, an area, and then the

Page 2778

1 river. So the river is here, to the back.

2 Q. The extension from the back of the model of the Zvornik Brigade,

3 can you point that area out on the perspective, please.

4 A. You mean this?

5 Q. Yes. And does that little extension coming off the back of the

6 building, that goes on to the other buildings which were considered the

7 barracks, the larger buildings that were part of the Standard compound?

8 A. Ms. Sinatra, if memory serves me, this is a hall, a corridor,

9 between the brigade command, the headquarters, and the remaining

10 buildings. There was a corridor. Once you've passed the corridor, there

11 was the building where the kitchen was, and the medical unit, the clinic,

12 and then through that building you could reach the hangars. Some of the

13 doors were kept closed, because there were many different things being

14 kept, obviously, in the hangars.

15 MS. SINATRA: If we could -- if I could ask the usher's assistance

16 to turn the model around to the front again.

17 Your Honours, I'm about to start the interior of the building.

18 Should we save that for tomorrow or should I proceed with it?

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think it's time for a break, so you may

20 continue tomorrow afternoon. And I have been advised that, as I said

21 before, this courtroom will be used for another trial. So I hope that

22 before leaving this courtroom, everybody should take their personal

23 belongings out of the courtroom. And we'll resume at 2.15 tomorrow

24 afternoon.

25 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I have one question.

Page 2779

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 MS. SINATRA: The model has remained in the courtroom on the

3 trolley over here behind the defence bar. May we leave the model covered

4 up in the courtroom? It's safer here and it's protected here from

5 tampering.

6 JUDGE LIU: I believe so. I'll entrust the court deputy to see to

7 it.

8 MS. SINATRA: All right. Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE LIU: So the hearing is adjourned.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.30 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of

12 October 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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