1 Tuesday, 28 October 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Good morning, Witness, can you hear me?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to proceed?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. You may continue.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 WITNESS: WITNESS P-138 [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examined by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued].
19 Q. Good morning, Witness. I want to show you a short clip this
20 morning to see if you can identify the kinds of vehicles that you were
21 driving that day in Konjevic Polje. So that should come up on your
22 screen, but as we're waiting for that, let me ask you: Were there any
23 prisoners taken back to the Bratunac Brigade military police that day that
24 you know of?
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if we can have a specification from
1 where. From where?
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: We know where he is, Your Honour. This is
6 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't want to confuse the witness, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE LIU: No. Well, I believe that Mr. McCloskey will rephrase
8 his question.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. Were you aware of any Bratunac Brigade prisoners taken to the
11 military police on the day that you were in Konjevic Polje?
12 A. I don't know about that. I don't know that there were prisoners
14 Q. Do you remember one prisoner named Senad Senadovic or something
15 like that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember telling us earlier about Momir Nikolic getting a
18 couple of prisoners there at Konjevic Polje and taking them back to
20 A. I think that from Konjevic Polje he took one person. That's what
21 I heard. I did not see that. And that that person is Senad Residovic [as
23 Q. Thank you for that clarification. What do you know about that.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction Resid Sinanovic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already said that I think he took
1 this person from Konjevic Polje and we stayed in Konjevic Polje during
2 that time; whereas, he took that person to Bratunac and then went back
3 there. So there were no other persons. I don't know of any other
4 persons, so I know of this one person.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. Did you see Momir Nikolic with this prisoner?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So who did you hear about it from?
9 A. I heard that he took someone. When he came back, he said that he
10 took someone who had worked in the MUP earlier on and then -- I mean, I
11 didn't know these people. I didn't know them.
12 Q. Did you see that prisoner when you went back to the MP
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you have a gaol at the MP headquarters?
16 A. The headquarters of the military police was just one room where
17 persons who evaded going to the front line were kept. It was not a
18 classical prison. It was just a room, a regular room. It wasn't a
19 classical prison.
20 Q. Did you have a place there where you kept Muslim prisoners at this
21 time frame?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Let's -- we'll show you this video, hope it comes up on
24 your screen, see if you recognise the vehicle that should be in this
25 screen. And I'll ask you some questions.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Do you see that vehicle in the screen?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. Was that the kind of vehicle you were driving that day?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If you could freeze that. Where were you driving the vehicle
8 from? Can you see the driver's seat in this picture?
9 A. I cannot orient myself properly. I know that the driver's seat is
10 on the left-hand side, and up on the top there is a turret so you can
11 close it. Now, whether it's this -- I mean, I know there is this seat,
12 there is this turret where there is a driver's seat. There is this
13 command seat, if I can call it that, where the commander sits or the
14 signalman, I don't know who, and this other machine gun, this weapon, you
15 see, on the vehicle.
16 Q. Okay. When you were driving the vehicle, did you have your head
17 sticking out the top of the vehicle or were you inside it when it was
18 being driven that day?
19 A. For the most part, outside.
20 Q. And about what time that day did you end up going back to the
21 Bratunac Brigade headquarters?
22 A. I don't know what you mean, from where I went to the Bratunac
24 Q. No. You were in Konjevic Polje. Did you go back to the Bratunac
25 Brigade headquarters at some point?
1 A. Yes. I think it was in the afternoon. I don't know what time it
2 was exactly.
3 Q. And did you see any Muslims along the road when you drove back
4 from Konjevic Polje to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?
5 A. I saw -- well, first right out of Konjevic Polje there was a
6 column, two by two, they were walking towards Konjevic Polje. Perhaps
7 there were five or ten soldiers, I did not know. Youngish soldiers, say
8 around 20, 25 years old. And just before Kravica on the left-hand side,
9 there were perhaps 50 to 100 persons who were sitting, who were sitting on
10 the ground close to one another. And there were some soldiers by them and
11 nothing else.
12 Q. Were these Muslim men sitting on the ground?
13 A. Probably. I don't know. I don't know, probably.
14 Q. And how about the men you saw walking towards Konjevic Polje, were
15 those Muslims or were those Serb soldiers?
16 A. Serb soldiers, I said that there were perhaps only about 10 Serb
17 soldiers, and the column was about 50 metres long. They were walking two
18 by two in this column in the direction of Konjevic Polje.
19 Q. Were there Muslims walking in that group?
20 A. I think that they were Muslims. And the soldiers were armed,
21 whereas these other men were not armed.
22 Q. Did you know whether these were Ministry of Interior soldiers or
23 army soldiers that you saw there?
24 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: He says Ministry of Interior soldiers. Now we've
2 gone from MUP soldiers to a creative way of referring to them as soldiers
3 by saying Ministry of Interior soldiers. They're not soldiers. They're
4 police, they're special police. They may be armed like soldiers, but
5 they're police and I would like some specificity here. Otherwise we're
6 going to have a mess at the end of the trial, Your Honour, so please.
7 JUDGE LIU: We come across the same issue as always, to
8 distinguish between the police and the soldiers. I think the last time we
9 used the term "man."
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I hate to argue over this. Men with
11 guns and armaments are soldiers. And I've made very clear that they
12 Ministry of Interior. I'm not trying to suggest that these guys are army,
13 so I don't know what the gripe is.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well. Let's find a middle way, and that
15 is man.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
17 Q. Do you know -- do you have any idea what unit these armed men were
18 that were Serbs?
19 A. Probably.
20 Q. What unit do you think they were from?
21 A. Well, that I don't know. I didn't know then. And it's not that I
22 could look at them and see whether they had insignia or not. I couldn't
23 see that.
24 Q. Okay. About what time did you get back to the Bratunac Brigade
1 A. I've already said that we returned sometime in the afternoon. I
2 can't say exactly what time it was, but I know it was afternoon. I don't
3 know exactly. I can't say exactly.
4 Q. And where did you go when you got there, to the headquarters?
5 A. At headquarters, I left the APC there and I went to the military
6 police headquarters.
7 Q. So what did you do for the rest of the day?
8 A. I don't know. I can't remember what I did exactly.
9 Q. Do you know what any of your -- what any of the Bratunac Brigade
10 military police officers were doing that afternoon, that evening, when you
11 were back at the headquarters?
12 A. I know that there were very few members of the unit there and they
13 were all scattered around. The officers securing Fontana and the school
14 where the members of UNPROFOR were, or rather, the Dutch Battalion, then
15 security of the command post of the brigade headquarters, duty of the
16 military police, and then of course bringing into custody persons who were
17 fleeing from their units, who were engaged in looting, well that's what
18 the police did.
19 Now, what every person did specifically is something I don't know.
20 Q. Were there Bratunac Brigade military police officers in Potocari
21 that day?
22 A. If General Mladic was there, then they were there. If he was not
23 up there, then no members of the military police were supposed to be
25 Q. Do you know why your military policeman Radenko Zaric would have
1 told the OTP that he was in Potocari on those days with -- on orders from
2 you to secure the Muslims?
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour. I don't mean to object. I assume
4 that the Prosecution has a good faith basis. I would prefer to do it the
5 classical way, and that is to show the gentleman the exact language of
6 what Mr. Radenko Zaric has said, give him an opportunity to look at it,
7 and then give a proper response, just to make sure the Prosecution is not
8 misquoting from the statement. And I'm not suggesting that he is, but
9 just so we have a clear record, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't know what is the traditional way, but in
11 these proceedings, it's allowed that the counsel put questions to this
12 witness first to see his response. If the witness did not remember
13 anything about this matter, the counsel could show him the documents.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree, Your Honour. I assume, however, for our
15 benefit, for our benefit, that we will be getting some kind of a line,
16 page, so we could check it, as opposed to the witness.
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, it depends. We have to save time.
18 You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Do you know why Radenko Zaric would say that he received orders
21 from you to go to Potocari on those days to secure the Muslim population?
22 A. I don't know why he said that. I don't know that I sent him to do
23 that, to secure the Muslims, because it was not the task of the military
24 police to secure Muslims right there at Potocari.
25 Q. Do you know why Radenko Zaric would say that he was there with
1 about 20 other Bratunac Brigade military policemen to do that very task on
2 your orders?
3 A. If a military police platoon has about 30 men, then you can see
4 for yourself that it is impossible in addition to all other duties
5 involved to have some 20 military policemen be assigned to secure Muslims
6 in Potocari. Ten men stay at the command post to secure the officers of
7 the higher command of the Main Staff and so on and so forth and then for
8 security at the hospital where the Muslim wounded were, the sick. Then
9 also at the high school in Bratunac, the security there. So I cannot
10 understand, how can these 30 men be assigned to all these different
11 places. If that is possible, congratulations.
12 Q. He didn't say 30, he said about 20. Momir Nikolic said about 10.
13 And you're saying that there was no one there, except those that were
14 securing General Mladic. Can you explain this?
15 A. Yes. Yes. I know that I did not send anyone to guard the
16 Muslims, to secure the Muslims, nor was this among the tasks to secure
17 Muslims in Potocari. It was officers in Potocari who were supposed to be
18 secured, that is to say those who were up there, General Mladic and I
19 don't know who else had asked that. But it was security in terms of their
20 own persons that was needed. The Muslims didn't have to be secured. The
21 Dutch Battalion was there, the entire Dutch Battalion that was there with
22 its vehicles, and it was not necessary for the military police to secure
23 them there when UNPROFOR was there -- rather, the Dutch Battalion.
24 Q. So the Muslims didn't need any security there?
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, that mischaracterises the statement.
1 That's not exactly what the gentleman indicated.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: It certainly is, Your Honour --
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we are going to hear what the
4 witness is going to indicate.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: I object to the form of the question, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: We are going to hear that.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is pure obstructionism, Your Honour.
8 Q. So you're saying that the Muslims didn't need any security those
9 days. The Dutch handled it all?
10 A. No. That's not what I said. I'm saying in Potocari itself, in
11 Potocari itself -- I mean, I did not remember that there was any military
12 police there. Perhaps somebody else told them to go there to secure
13 something, but I did not order anyone to give security for them and I
14 could not have done this on my own. Nobody had issued me such orders.
15 Nobody had ordered me to do that, to provide security for them.
16 Q. Do you recall seeing the video clip or the still photo of Radenko
17 Zaric in Potocari by the buses?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was he doing there?
20 A. He was supposed to provide security for General Mladic, as far as
21 I know.
22 Q. On the evening of the 13th, were there any Muslim men detained in
24 A. I know that one evening they brought them from somewhere, but I
25 don't know whether it was the 13th. They were in schools. But now
1 whether it was the 13th, I really cannot remember the date.
2 Q. Okay. What schools were the Muslim men in?
3 A. I said that now as well, when I came here, and I said so in Banja
4 Luka, too, I showed on the aerial image of Bratunac where these facilities
5 were. It is the former elementary school Vuk Karadzic. Nowadays this
6 school is called Branko Radicevic. Then old school for civil engineering,
7 which is also near that school, then the hangar, and I don't know about
8 other places. Well, they were probably in vehicles, because there were a
9 lot of them.
10 Q. Okay. I've got a copy of what you helped us with in Banja Luka.
11 It's Exhibit P-167, and if we could give that to the witness and if we can
12 put parts of it on the ELMO that will show some of the various schools.
13 Mr. Witness --
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, on this exhibit, are there any names on it?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's been properly looked after by Ms. Stewart,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. And if you could just take a while to orient yourself to that
20 photo. You can look directly at the photo, Mr. Witness, but if it could
21 stay on the ELMO, though -- well, yeah, let him look at it first and then
22 if we could put it on the ELMO.
23 And can you point to the area where the Muslim men were staying.
24 And you can orient that any way you like.
25 A. I'll do it in the right order. This is letter A, as far as I can
1 see. This is where the brigade headquarters was. The letter B is the
2 facility where the military police was. This is where the elementary
3 school was, the former elementary school, Vuk Karadzic, now called Branko
4 Radicevic this is the facility that is called the hangar and this is the
5 old civil engineering school that I already referred to.
6 Q. For the record, what letter did you mark those three schools with
7 for those three buildings? Is that an H?
8 A. H, H is the hangar. G is the elementary school, if I can see
9 properly the letter G. And the letter I denotes the old civil engineering
11 Q. And where were the Muslim men being held?
12 A. Here, here, within this circle. The elementary school, the
13 hangar, and the old civil engineering school.
14 Q. Okay. And could you just tell us what else you've marked as you
15 were going through and tell us what letters. After the schools, what
17 A. The letter D denotes the city stadium in Bratunac right over here.
18 Then over here, the letter F, this is the high school, the high school
19 centre where the members of the Dutch Battalion were. That was also
20 secured by the military police. And over here under the letter E is where
21 the elementary school is. Hadzimidhat used to be its name and now it's
22 called Vuk Karadzic.
23 Q. Was anybody staying in letter E?
24 A. No one was staying in letter E in this school.
25 Q. Were any Bratunac Brigade military police securing prisoners in
1 the three schools you've mentioned, G, H, and I?
2 A. I believe during the one night that they were detained here, there
3 were people securing the facility. I'm not sure who. Very few military
4 policemen, I'm not sure if they had any vehicles. I didn't want to go
5 there and I couldn't go there.
6 Q. But to your knowledge, were Bratunac Brigade military policemen
7 securing the prisoners in any of those schools, G, H, and I?
8 A. I think so. They were providing security somewhere. Whether in
9 vehicles driving around or in one of the schools, I can't say.
10 Q. And how many military police officers from Bratunac were providing
11 security for prisoners in those schools?
12 A. I don't know how many.
13 Q. And did you go to those schools during the evening?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Why not?
16 A. I don't understand your question. Maybe I'm not getting any
18 Q. Why didn't you go to those schools in the evening to inspect
20 A. There was no need for me to go there. What was I supposed to be
21 doing there? I didn't feel like going; it's as simple as that. I didn't
22 want to go.
23 Q. What were you doing in the evening the day before you went up to
24 Zvornik with the convoy?
25 A. I was at the military police building. I was doing nothing in
1 particular. There was nothing in particular for me to do.
2 Q. Thank you. I think we're through with that exhibit. And just to
3 clarify, you filled out this exhibit in Banja Luka during your interview
4 in Banja Luka. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And do you recall telling the OTP that military police were
7 guarding prisoners at those schools during your Banja Luka interview?
8 A. I said the same thing that I've just told you now. I told you
9 they were providing security, but I didn't know how many military
10 policemen were there. However, not a sufficient number to provide
11 security for three different buildings with 100 metres' distance between
12 each. And there were vehicles there, as I was later to find out, full of
13 men -- full of detainees. So the military police were in no position to
14 provide security for all of those. There were too few of them. I'm not
15 sure about the number.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. McCloskey indicated, he said: "What were you
18 doing in the evening the day before you went up to Zvornik with the
19 convoy?" There has been no testimony about Zvornik. I was wondering
20 whether he misspoke. Is this about Konjevic Polje or is it testimony to
21 come? Because we do know that he went to Zvornik at one point, but I
22 don't believe there has been testimony --
23 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Sorry, Mr. Karnavas. If I remember correctly, the
24 witness said so yesterday, one day he was going to Konjevic Polje and the
25 other day he was with a convoy to Zvornik.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you.
3 Excuse me, Your Honour.
4 Q. This evening we're talking about, did the Bratunac Brigade
5 military police have assistance from others in securing or guarding all
6 the Muslims that were in Bratunac?
7 A. Yes. There was another unit there providing security. The
8 military police were assisting them. They were not the ones assisting the
9 military police. It was the other way around. The military police were
10 helping them to provide security.
11 Q. Is it fair to say that they were assisting each other?
12 A. Well, I don't know. Something like that. It was the same
13 assignment for both of the units. They were guarding the prisoners.
14 Q. And who issued that assignment?
15 A. I think Nikolic.
16 Q. And did you hear him issue that assignment?
17 A. Yes, I did. He said that that was supposed to be secured, that
18 was to be secured because it was a village and there were very few capable
19 or able-bodied men back in town. A lot of Muslim prisoners were being
20 brought in to the town itself.
21 Q. So did Momir Nikolic issue that assignment to you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who else was present when he issued that assignment to you?
24 A. I don't know who else was present. I can't remember.
25 Q. So what was the other unit that was taking part in the securing of
1 these prisoners, besides the Bratunac Brigade military police?
2 A. I don't know what this other unit was. I'm not sure if it was
3 from the Bratunac Brigade at all. There was another unit there, it's just
4 that I'm not sure which one.
5 Q. Did you do any coordination with that unit yourself so that you
6 could assist each other in the best way possible?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So did you give anyone in the Bratunac Brigade orders based on
9 Mr. Nikolic's orders to you?
10 A. I don't think I understood your question. I'm sorry, what do you
11 mean, did I give any orders?
12 Q. Well, when Nikolic ordered -- you just said that Nikolic ordered
13 you to use Bratunac Brigade military police to secure the Muslims. Right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So did you issue orders to Bratunac Brigade military police to
16 secure those premises?
17 A. I probably did. I don't know. I can't remember, but I must have.
18 Q. And did you receive reports from the military police that were
19 securing those Muslim prisoners that evening?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you receive reports from the Bratunac Brigade military police
22 that were securing those Muslims the next day?
23 A. I don't remember that I received any reports. I know that the
24 night they were securing them, I received orders to leave. I didn't even
25 know where I was going. They told me to take a car and to park at the
1 junction near the bus stop. And the people from the military police and
2 the people who were in the school, I didn't see any of them.
3 Q. Who told you to take a car and go to a bus stop?
4 A. Colonel Vujadin Popovic.
5 Q. And when did he do that?
6 A. I think it was about 10.00 in the morning.
7 Q. Okay. That's the following day. I'll get to there in a minute.
8 Did you receive any reports that there were bodies of Muslims around the
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you hear any talk of bodies, Muslim bodies, around Bratunac
12 from that night?
13 A. I did hear about that, but later on. I heard people talk. After
14 I returned from Zvornik, maybe five or six days later was the first time I
16 Q. What did you hear?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell us what you heard about bodies in Bratunac from that
19 time period.
20 A. I heard that during the night those who were staying in vehicles
21 or in schools had revolted and made an attempt to flee. I heard that some
22 of the members from those units that were there fired shots after them,
23 that sort of thing.
24 Q. That's how the bodies were created, rioting Muslims?
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour. That's what he heard.
1 He's not stating that's what happened. He's stating that's what he heard
2 from other -- it's hearsay. It's very clear. Now he's trying to demean
3 the witness.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not trying to demean the witness.
6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey, I think you made a comment. Not a
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: That was meant to be a question. I'll make it
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Are you saying the stories of the bodies are from rioting Muslims?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you hear any accounts that Serbs were outside buses and trucks
15 and calls for Muslims from particular villages and taking them off the
16 trucks and killing them?
17 A. No. I'm not aware of that at all.
18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next morning. Can you tell us what your
19 first assignment was that next morning.
20 A. My first assignment was to start up the APC and park it near the
21 bus stop. There's a junction there. One road forks off towards the
22 school, or rather, the schools -- the street is perhaps between 300 and
23 400 metres long. I stopped there. I didn't know what I was to do next.
24 I didn't know where I would be sent to. I was just told to get there.
25 And once I was there, Colonel Popovic left and came back and told me to
1 turn the vehicle around to face Kravica and Konjevic Polje. I turned the
2 vehicle around and he told me to stay put, so I did for a while. He came
3 again and told me to move as far as the distribution building where the
4 road turned off to go to the headquarters.
5 I moved the building [as interpreted] as far as the turnoff point,
6 and the military vehicle arrived. They asked me whether I needed fuel. A
7 cisterna had arrived, a military cisterna. I knew nothing about the
8 vehicle. I didn't even know what its capacity was for fuel, the capacity
9 of its tank. The man spoke to me and said Colonel Popovic told you to get
10 some fuel, so I did. I got two full tanks of fuel, and I kept on waiting.
11 Shall I continue my story or do you want to ask any questions at this
13 Q. Thank you. I think you can just continue your story. Tell us
14 who's with you and what you do may be the simplest way to get through it.
15 A. Nikola Popovic and Mile Petrovic were with me near the vehicle. I
16 was standing there for some time at the junction near the bus stop. I
17 can't remember exactly how long. I can't remember how long I was standing
18 there at the gate near the headquarters. Colonel Popovic came along again
19 with a vehicle and he told me to move further down the road and to follow
20 him. So I followed him for about a kilometre in the direction of Konjevic
21 Polje. And I stopped in the village of Repovac.
22 On the way out from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, there is a Vihor
23 transport company parking lot there to the right. I passed the parking
24 lot and stopped the vehicle. I was there. I remember it was very hot. I
25 stayed there until half past 1.00 or perhaps 2.00. That's how long I
1 waited before I turned around and saw a column forming behind me. A
2 column of buses and lorries with people in them.
3 Q. What people were in them?
4 A. Probably the Muslims who had been staying in those schools.
5 Q. Were there any women in that group on the vehicles?
6 A. Not that I saw. I only saw the first vehicle behind me, but there
7 must have been many more. I couldn't even see the end of the column.
8 There's a sharp turn to the left on the road to Bratunac, so I could see
9 as far as the curve. But I didn't see the rest of the column. My
10 assumption was that it must have been quite long, since I was told to move
12 Q. Okay. Then what happened?
13 A. Another vehicle arrived. I don't know whether anyone else was
14 there with Colonel Popovic. The navy blue Golf vehicle appeared and
15 parked in front of me. And I was told to follow the vehicle. So I set
16 out, followed the car, and the convoy set out behind me following me.
17 Q. Did you see Momir Nikolic at any time that morning before you set
19 A. I don't remember seeing him. I probably did.
20 Q. Okay. And where did you go?
21 A. We arrived at the junction in Konjevic Polje. The Golf turned
22 right, and I followed it in the direction of Zvornik. We passed through
23 the town of Zvornik and reached a neighbourhood called Karakaj or rather a
24 village called Karakaj where there was another junction to the left --
25 Q. -- the Zvornik Brigade headquarters?
1 A. No, no. We didn't stop anywhere along the way. We just kept on
2 driving. As far as the junction in Karakaj, there's a sign, a road sign
3 saying Sapna. I was convinced that those persons were being taken,
4 because that's what had been agreed at the headquarters, and Nikolic said
5 so, that these persons would be exchanged. He said, do you know how many
6 Serbs had to stay behind in Tuzla. I lived in Tuzla and I was aware of
7 how many Serbs there still were. He said that those persons were to be
8 exchanged which only seemed logical to me. So we drove towards Sapna, at
9 that time under the control of the Muslim forces.
10 Q. When was it that headquarters, that Momir Nikolic said this in
11 relation to the trip you were taking?
12 A. I don't know. It was being said that or he may have said it the
13 previous day. As soon as they got to Bratunac, they would be sent on to
14 Muslim territory, same as the women and children. No one was talking
15 about liquidation or anything like that.
16 Q. So Momir Nikolic before this had said that these Muslims are going
17 to be exchanged?
18 A. Yes. Yes. He said they would be. And everyone was saying that,
19 even Mladic himself, General Mladic, said that the first to be taken away
20 would be the women and children, due to excessive heat. And then the men
21 would follow after them.
22 Q. Did you hear about what happened to the Muslim men the day before
23 your trip to Zvornik at the Kravica warehouse?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Would it surprise you to hear that some 500 to 1.000 men were
1 butchered at the Kravica warehouse on the evening of the 13th of July?
2 They weren't exchanged. You never heard about that?
3 A. No. I never heard about that. I did hear in Bijeljina, or
4 rather, in Banja Luka. I heard later, once the war was over. But until
5 then, I hadn't known anything about that.
6 Q. So where do you go leading this convoy of Muslim men?
7 A. Once we turned off to go to Sapna -- I wasn't familiar with the
8 area because I had never taken the road before. We drove there. We
9 turned off right. It was a comparatively narrow road. There was an
10 asphalt bridge that was so narrow I could hardly cross it. It's a wide,
11 large vehicle, so the bridge was hardly wide enough for me to cross and
12 the other vehicles followed. We reached a school to the right of the
13 road, and we stopped there. There were perhaps about ten soldiers there.
14 We stopped there. I turned the vehicle around, and I saw the school in
15 front of me. The unloading of men from the vehicles following me began.
16 I saw that there was enough space for me to drive through, so I just set
17 off and drove straight back. Colonel Popovic was asking me to stay there,
18 but I left.
19 Q. How many vehicles of Muslims got unloaded while you were there?
20 A. Perhaps between five and ten vehicles. I'm not sure about the
21 number, but there may have been between five and ten vehicles being
22 unloaded. There were tow trucks there. There were buses.
23 Q. Do you know roughly how many Muslims could fit in a bus?
24 A. I drove a bus and I knew that you could fit -- well, when those
25 vehicles were coming, no one -- I could see that no one was standing in
1 the buses. Everyone was seated. And I knew that you could fit between 40
2 and 50 people into a bus. Now as for a tow trucks, I'm not sure because
3 they were covered with tarp, and I didn't know how many people were in
4 there. I didn't count them on their way out. They would just pass by and
5 go straight into the building there.
6 Q. So what orders did you receive once you were at this school?
7 A. I didn't receive any orders there. Popovic, Colonel Popovic, went
8 there, and I was just standing there. I couldn't go back. I had no where
9 to go.
10 Q. So what did you do?
11 A. I waited there until there was enough space for me to drive
12 through and back to Bratunac.
13 Q. You just left without any orders from anybody?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You didn't have any orders when you left?
16 A. No. Colonel Popovic told me to stay right there, but I said that
17 I had to go back, because Nikolic had told me to drive straight back, that
18 I would be needed at the headquarters, so I drove right back. I didn't
19 feel like staying there.
20 Q. When did Nikolic tell you that? You just told us you didn't see
21 Nikolic that morning.
22 A. I didn't say that I didn't see Nikolic. I said I might have seen
23 him but I couldn't remember. That's what I said. Secondly, this may have
24 just been an excuse for me to drive back as soon as possible because I
25 didn't feel like staying, as simple as that. And I thought that we were
1 near the Muslim-held -- Muslim-controlled territory, and I thought the
2 rest of the crowd who were there could just go on and go on with the
3 exchanges and I wouldn't be needed there. So I just drove back to my
5 Q. How many buses and trucks did you pass when you turned around and
6 drove back to Bratunac?
7 A. I don't know how many more. I can't remember.
8 Q. Do you know if the column split up and went in other directions
9 from where you went?
10 A. I don't know how long exactly the column was. I know what I saw
11 when I was at the head of the column and while I was driving. I was
12 looking in my rear-view mirror and I can only tell you about what I saw in
13 my rear-view mirror, how long the column was. But it didn't seem to split
14 up or go in any other direction while I was driving. But I didn't stop on
15 the way, so I can't say.
16 Q. Were there other Bratunac Brigade military police, aside from you
17 and the two people you've mentioned assigned to this convoy?
18 A. Not that I knew of. I didn't know that they were there at all
19 providing any kind of escort for the convoy, but I certainly assigned no
20 one. I was ordered to be there. I didn't know where we were headed. I
21 didn't know why I found myself at the junction. I knew nothing.
22 Q. Do you remember me showing you some pictures of schools in my
23 office on Sunday? Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And were you able to recognise one of those pictures?
1 A. Yes, I recognised the school where we had come, where these
2 Muslims were taken off the vehicles and then I went back.
3 Q. Okay. I think we'll put the picture of a school up on your
4 screen. That is Exhibit P-13.4. Is that the school that you recall going
5 to that day where the Muslims were dropped off?
6 A. Yes. When I was in Banja Luka, this photograph was not there. If
7 you remember, this is how I described it, as a matter of fact, that this
8 is what the school looked like. I was standing right over here from where
9 this photograph was actually taken, because I turned around here and then
10 went back with the vehicle here. But this is exactly where I was, from
11 where the photograph was taken.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, if we could go back to the military police
13 log briefly, which I'll have an Exhibit number in one second. It is 92.
14 And I know you've seen this. Perhaps I can just read you the entry that
15 says 14/15 July. It says: "The police was engaged in the escort of
16 Muslim refugees."
17 Do you recall reading that log entry in my office? You can see it
18 if you'd like. It's 14/15 July.
19 A. Whose office? I didn't quite understand this.
20 Q. Okay. Well, do you remember me showing you that log entry in my
22 A. Yes. Yes, I remember. I saw this in Banja Luka, too, and I said
23 that I, myself -- I mean, I thought it was probably that is what it was
24 about. And then there's this date and then the police being engaged in
25 the escort of Muslim refugees -- I mean, I said straight away that I
1 personally took part in this, in this escort. And I don't know what else
2 this could mean.
3 Q. Okay. So that reference on 14 July of engaged in the escort of
4 Muslim refugees, you believe that's the escort you've just described to
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you go to 15 July in the logbook. Now, this says: "The
8 police worked on searching and combing the area as well as apprehending
9 the Muslims found hiding in the area."
10 First of all, what area do you think they're talking about in this
12 A. I don't know. I'm in the sure. I think that this probably means
13 that there was a possibility that during the night from those vehicles
14 some people escaped and were still there in the territory of the town. I
15 think that that is what this is about. I don't know what else it could
17 Q. Do you know that Muslims were apprehended at some point on the
18 15th or 14th of July?
19 A. I can't hear the interpretation now. I seem to be losing the
20 volume all together.
21 Q. How does it -- can you hear me okay now?
22 A. I can hear you, but now I can hear the interpreter as well.
23 Q. Okay. Did you become aware that Muslims had been apprehended on
24 the 14th or 15th of July, as noted in this log entry?
25 A. No. No.
1 Q. You know nothing about this?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next date, which says 17 July. Do you see
4 the 17 July there?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it says: "The patrol worked at the checkpoints. Air raid
7 sirens sounded at 4.00 a.m. Patrols worked on the apprehension and
8 securing of Muslims in the municipal area of Bratunac and Srebrenica."
9 What can you tell us about that, again the apprehension of Muslims
10 from the Bratunac and Srebrenica areas?
11 A. I don't know. I can't remember this.
12 Q. Okay. Then it goes on to say: "One police patrol remained in
13 Pilica to secure and guard the Muslims."
14 First of all, how much -- how many men are one police patrol?
15 A. Well, it depended on how many were needed. If -- well, usually
16 two people would be on a patrol. If it's a patrol, then it's two people.
17 Two military policemen constitute one patrol.
18 Q. Did you order any Bratunac Brigade military policemen to secure
19 prisoners in Pilica at this time?
20 A. I've said that I went to Zvornik and that at 10.00, around 10.00,
21 perhaps even before that, I was positioned with a vehicle at this
22 crossroads that I mentioned. I didn't know where I was going to. I
23 didn't have any contact with them afterwards. I could not assign anyone
24 to go anywhere.
25 Q. So did you assign or order any Bratunac Brigade military policemen
1 to go to Pilica on the 15th/16th of July?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know how they got up there?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did someone steal your men without telling you?
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour. He's never indicated that
7 anyone was stolen from him. He has indicated that Nikolic gives orders --
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is pure obstruction, 100 per cent, Your
9 Honour. He should stop. He should be told to stop this.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm entitled to make a record. I'm entitled to
11 object. And I'm entitled to some common courtesy by the Prosecution. And
12 he should treat the witness with some courtesy as well.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, maybe "steal" is not a proper
14 word. You may rephrase your question.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. Did someone take your men without your authorisation?
17 A. It is well known who could have issued orders, and probably
18 someone did issue them orders. Colonel Popovic could have returned and
19 given them orders then. Momir Nikolic could have given them orders.
20 Mladic could have given them orders. How can I say who gave them orders?
21 How can I know who gave them orders when I did not even know they were
22 there. I did not know who ordered them to do anything and no one informed
23 me of everything. That's what I said in Banja Luka, too.
24 Q. There's someone else that could have given them orders, too, that
25 you didn't mention, isn't there? Do you see that man in this room? Do
1 you see that man today that could have issued orders to you to send people
2 to Pilica? Do you see that man in the room today?
3 A. I could have been given orders by my commander to send a patrol
4 wherever necessary. However, I'm saying that no one ordered me to send
5 that patrol and I did not send that patrol. Now, who did send the patrol
6 is something I cannot say, because I was not in contact even with the
7 police while I was there waiting for the column to be established. I did
8 not even know why I had been positioned there and that I would be going
9 anywhere, let alone me ordering someone to go to Pilica. I didn't even
10 know where Pilica was. And I didn't know where I was going to.
11 Q. Okay. I understand. Did you get a report back from your military
12 policemen about what was going on in Pilica on those days?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Not a word?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you hear that on the 15th of July, a bus load of Muslims
17 pulled up to a school at Pilica and as the Muslim prisoners got off the
18 bus, they were systematically shot? Did you hear that account from any
19 Bratunac Brigade police officers that were securing Muslims at a school in
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the form of the
22 question. He hasn't established that those police officers that were
23 there were there at the time that this atrocity occurred.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think at the beginning of this
25 trial, the Prosecution is instructed to ask some leading questions. I
1 believe that this witness is not that friendly to the Prosecution, so this
2 rule applies.
3 You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
5 Q. Did you hear -- did you get a report -- do you think that's funny?
6 What do you think is funny about Muslims being butchered as they got off a
7 bus? Is that what you're laughing at?
8 Let me got to another question.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I think he deserves an answer to
10 that question.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Witness, answer the question.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm laughing because I hear here
13 that someone said, I don't understand who, that my attitude towards the
14 Prosecution is not friendly. If I did not have an attitude that was
15 friendly to the Prosecution and to this Tribunal and if I was not
16 respecting this Tribunal, I would not be here today. I would not be
17 cooperating. I would not have been there in Banja Luka. So this offends
18 me. This offends me and that's why I laughed. I mean, why are you saying
19 that I'm not friendly to the Prosecution? I want the truth to be told and
20 I want the truth to be proven. You cannot claim that I know something,
21 that is, who gave the men the orders to do something when I was not there.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, let me explain to you this term,
23 "unfriendly." It is not in the ordinary sense. It is in the purely
24 legal sense. Usually the word is used when there is a hostile witness,
25 but in this situation I particularly avoid using that word because that
1 will arouse other legal consequences. It's a purely legal terminology.
2 It has nothing to do with your attitude in the courtroom, but it has
3 something to do with your answers. I hope you could understand that. It
4 is -- generally speaking, it is common law legal terms and it took me a
5 long time to understand it. Yes?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know, Your Honour. But, Your
7 Honour, what I see here, for example, when I smiled or laughed when this
8 statement was made, the Prosecutor is trying to ascribe to me that I am
9 laughing at the execution of the Muslims. This is provocative to my mind
10 and I cannot stand it. It offends me.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you have the right to explain the
12 situation to us, and you have to believe that the Judges will be very
13 impartial in this matter.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. So, Witness, just to be clear, you were not laughing at the
16 Muslims. Is that right?
17 A. I laughed and I already said why, because you were proclaiming
18 that I was an enemy of the Court, an enemy of the Prosecution, and I'm
19 trying to help. Not only the Prosecution, not only the Court itself, but
20 I'm trying to help the truth, because the Court, the International
21 Tribunal was established in order to establish the truth, to find out what
22 the truth was and in order to have justice done, to have justice carried
23 out completely, not, for example, to condemn someone who is innocent and
24 to let those who are guilty slip by, for instance. That is why I cannot
25 understand that now I am the one who is an enemy of this Court, and I
1 really want to cooperate. And I've been thinking so hard. I've been
2 rewinding this tape in my head, so to speak, in order to remember these
3 dates and events and everything, and if I'm to be blamed, then let me stay
4 here straight away, no problem whatsoever.
5 Q. Mr. Witness, as the Judge explained to you, you're not the enemy
6 of the Court, you're not the enemy of the Prosecution. You're no one's
7 enemy. That was a purely legal term. I can tell the Court and I can tell
8 you right now, you've always been friendly and very cooperative. Okay.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. We're trying to get to the truth. We've never had any problem,
11 you and I, have we? You've always been cooperative and friendly to us,
12 haven't you?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Okay. Let's keep going through the questions. I know they're not
15 easy and it's an emotional subject, so let's just keep going?
16 A. Can I tell you something?
17 Q. Well, I'm supposed to ask you questions. You can talk to me
18 afterward, of course. If you need to explain an answer --
19 A. I just wish to say now, please, because again you asked me whether
20 I laughed at the execution of the Muslims from a bus. I did not laugh
21 about that. I'm not a beast. I'm a man. I'm a person. I'm a human
22 being who is gravely affected by everything that happened. I am not
23 justifying the killing of one man. I'm not justifying the killing of an
24 animal. Everyone has the right to live, let alone a bus load full of
25 people. So I mean, you asked me whether I laughed about that. I cannot
1 understand who would laugh about a thing like that. You would have been a
2 monster in order to laugh about something like that.
3 Q. Okay. Do you think that the Bosnian Serb army systematically
4 murdered all the men in that convoy you were leading.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object to this question,
6 systematically and the entire army now. I mean, just I think it's sort of
7 a global question. It's very broad. If he wants to tailor it, I don't
8 have objections.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolute obstruction, Your Honour. It's a fair
11 MR. KARNAVAS: -- army, systematically. That means that every
12 single person in the VRS is guilty under their theory.
13 JUDGE LIU: I understand your objection. It's -- really the
14 question is too broad and systematically is a legal term. It's a legal
15 term that will get the Witness confused.
16 Well, to ease the tension, I think we might have a break. And we
17 will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. We have taken a deep
22 breathe. We're ready to continue.
23 Q. Mr. Witness, let's go back to the logbook and just finish up a
24 couple of entries, if we could. We were at the 17th. Let's just briefly
25 go to the 18th. And the 18th it says: "The military police squadron
1 worked according to plan."
2 Do you know what that means?
3 A. It means that it worked on regular activities. I've already said
4 what these regular activities are. It means that there weren't any
5 special tasks involved.
6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page. And you'll notice that there's
7 no date on that next page, but if we go to the following page -- I'm
8 sorry, go to the next page after the one with no date. And what date is
10 A. The 20th of July, 1995.
11 Q. Okay. So let's go back to the one with no date on it. So the one
12 with no date on it, should that be the 19th of July?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And it says: "During the shift, the police was engaged in
15 notifying conscripts of their deployment." That's the usual task of the
16 MPs, I take it. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Then it says: "No incidents." Then it says: "Patrols
19 went to secure public utility workers in Glogova." Do you know what that
20 refers to?
21 A. That means that -- it says here: "The patrol went to secure
22 public utility workers in Glogova." That means that the patrol provided
23 security for some workers of the public utilities that were doing
24 something in Glogova.
25 Q. Well, on the 19th were you aware of what work was being secured by
1 the military police?
2 A. I don't know. They were securing these workers who were doing
3 something. Now, what these workers were doing, I don't know. I know that
4 the patrol was securing these workers. Now, what they were doing, I don't
5 know about that.
6 Q. On the 19th or before, were you aware of a large mass grave in the
7 area of Glogova?
8 A. No. I did not know at all that there was a mass grave there.
9 Q. And going briefly back to the Muslim men in the schools in
10 Bratunac, did you see to it that those prisoners got sufficient water and
12 A. No. I did not see that. I do not know whether they got water and
13 food, but it would be logical that they were receiving that.
14 Q. Is it the military's responsibility to see to it that prisoners in
15 their custody get sufficient water and food?
16 A. That should not be the concern of the soldiers. It -- it's not
17 that the soldiers had any resources. Somebody probably had to make sure
18 that they had adequate provisions, that they had water and food, because
19 they were on that assignment. But it is only natural that these people
20 who were detained there in these facilities should receive food and water.
21 Now, who was supposed to provide for this, I don't know.
22 Q. Was it, among others, Commander Blagojevic's responsibility to see
23 that the prisoners in his custody --
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. He's never stated that the prisoners
25 were in his custody, Your Honour. There's no foundation and I think we're
1 going way off base. If he wants to lay a foundation that those prisoners
2 belong to the Bratunac Brigade, that those prisoners were Colonel
3 Blagojevic's responsibility, that's fine, but no foundation has been
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, but anyway those prisoners were in Bratunac.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: In Bratunac town. That doesn't make them Bratunac
7 Brigade prisoners, Your Honour. And nothing has been established to show
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, if I could briefly respond to that.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: The record has established for various witnesses
12 that the Bratunac Brigade was involved in Potocari in the separation and
13 detention of the men. Momir Nikolic testified about that. And that they
14 were transferred to Bratunac. We have now heard evidence that this
15 individual and others were involved in the process of bringing prisoners
16 that were coming in from the woods on the 13th of July and that they were
17 transferred to Bratunac. Mostly, from this very witness, he has stated to
18 Bratunac Brigade policemen were guarding these men at these schools in
19 Bratunac. This is very close to the Bratunac headquarters. These
20 prisoners are being guarded by Bratunac Brigade military policemen. That
21 certainly is a foundation that Mr. Blagojevic has a responsibility over
22 these prisoners.
23 I understand Mr. Karnavas's defence, but objecting during
24 cross-examination really isn't the time for him to be arguing his defence.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Briefly, Your Honour. The witness has also
1 indicated that downtown Bratunac in the Hotel Fontana it was the forward
2 command post for the Main Staff where Mladic, the head of the military,
3 was there, as well as the Drina Corps where General Krstic was. And I
4 think asking this witness or insinuating that the prisoners were the
5 domain of the Bratunac Brigade I think is way off base. Now, if he wants
6 to establish a foundation that those prisoners belonged to the Bratunac
7 Brigade, that's another story. But so far all he's indicated was that he
8 was told by Nikolic to provide some men to secure the prisoners, not that
9 all those prisoners belonged. Where did Nikolic get that order? We don't
10 know. But we do know that Popovic was giving orders, that Beara was
11 giving orders, that Mladic was giving orders. But we haven't heard
12 anything to the effect that the people that were in Bratunac town on those
13 particular days belonged to the Bratunac Brigade. I don't believe that
14 this witness is competent to answer that question. I know the
15 Prosecution's theory, but he's not competent to answer the question.
16 JUDGE LIU: Whether the witness is competent to answer this
17 question or not depends on what kind of answer the witness is going to
18 offer us. I believe that there is sufficient basis for the Prosecution to
19 ask this question.
20 Witness, you may answer this question.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who was supposed to
22 secure the supplies for the prisoners' water and food. Whether the
23 military authorities were in charge, the corps command, the Main Staff or
24 the civilian authorities. I really don't know whose duty it was or who
25 was in a position to get those supplies for them. I know that I was in no
1 position to do so. It wasn't within my power and it wasn't in my
2 assignment. Probably someone was supposed to secure those, but I don't
3 know who.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is why I object to these sorts of talking
5 objections, Your Honour.
6 Q. Is a brigade commander generally responsible for the care of
7 prisoners in his custody?
8 A. I don't know whether they are in his custody to begin with. I
9 told you in Banja Luka that the whole operation that had been prepared. I
10 wasn't even aware that the operation was being prepared. I thought it was
11 a protected zone, that it was the Srebrenica enclave. The whole operation
12 was run by the Main Staff. I don't know who gave the orders. I don't
13 know who was in charge of what. Probably those top officers, top brass
14 from the Main Staff knew that, the officers from the corps, top level. I
15 can't talk about something that I'm not familiar with.
16 Q. I'm just asking you generally, a general question. Is a brigade
17 commander responsible for prisoners in his custody?
18 A. I don't know who took them into custody to begin with. I don't
19 know who brought them there. Therefore, I can't say who was responsible.
20 I'm not here to judge. I am a witness before this Court. I can't
21 determine the degree of responsibility of the different people involved.
22 I am not familiar with the structure of the chain of command in the army.
23 I'm just not familiar with that. I did not do my military service with
24 the JNA, by virtue of having completed a three-year school, as I said, and
25 on the basis of the law, it was prescribed that any student who completes
1 his regular schooling in three years wearing uniform was not bound to do
2 regular military service. Therefore, I was not even then familiar with
3 the structure of command within the army.
4 Q. Were -- if the military police had captured Muslim prisoners,
5 would you have been responsible for their care while they were in your
7 A. Yes. If they were staying in the military police premises. If we
8 had had an adequate gaol or premises to keep those people detained, in
9 that case of course it would have been my responsibility to provide food
10 for those people, just like members of the Dutch Battalion were given
11 breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Those that the military police was
12 providing security for, those staying in the secondary school.
13 Q. You said that the military police were providing security for
14 Muslims in those schools. Was anything provided to those Muslims in the
15 way of care, food, water?
16 A. I don't know whether anything was provided and whether it was
17 possible to provide anything. I don't know if those people were given
18 anything. It wasn't only the military policemen who were providing
19 security there. There were large numbers of people there, so of course
20 someone was supposed to provide as much food and water as possible.
21 Q. Isn't it your responsibility to see to it that the Muslims that
22 your men are guarding are provided food and water?
23 A. I was not in a position to do that. It wasn't my duty. I said
24 there were large numbers of people there, and I was the lowest ranking
25 person in that whole structure. It wasn't for me to decide. There was
1 supposed to be a larger scale -- a large-scale involvement related to an
2 activity like that.
3 Q. So did somebody above you decide that these men wouldn't get any
4 food or water?
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. It calls for speculation. And there's
6 no foundation that this witness knows about this.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Pure obstruction objection again, Your Honour.
8 It's an absolutely fair question.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: I would direct the Court to the question itself the
10 way it's phrased. It's just an unfair question to this witness.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's in response to his answer.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, I hope you could put your
13 question in another way.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, what in the -- what is wrong with
15 this question? Can you tell me? I don't see a thing wrong with this
16 question. I don't want to argue with the Court, but what is wrong with
17 this question?
18 JUDGE LIU: I believe it calls for the speculation of this
19 witness. This witness, I think, has done his best to answer your
20 question. He could not get --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is his first reference to this very important
22 subject, but I'll go on, Your Honour. I apologise.
23 Q. You said that there was supposed to be -- were you aware of any of
24 the Muslims in these schools being interrogated for intelligence
25 information by anyone?
1 A. I wasn't aware of anyone interrogating anyone else. I was not
2 aware of that.
3 Q. Were you aware of a reburial operation that occurred some weeks
4 after the fall of Srebrenica where bodies were moved from one location to
6 A. I was aware of that. I'm not sure when that happened, but I know
7 that bodies were moved, probably from Glogova. Military police secured
8 the road between Bratunac and Srebrenica. And lorries were used to
9 transport this. Now, I have no idea where they were taking that.
10 Q. So what were the -- what precisely was the military police's
11 involvement in this operation to move the bodies from Glogova?
12 A. The military police provided security along the road so there
13 wouldn't be any -- the lorries wouldn't have to stop for anything. You
14 could feel the stench, and the convoy was passing through the town on its
15 way to Srebrenica. We wanted to make sure the whole thing ran smoothly
16 and that was the assignment that the military police, a single patrol, I
17 believe, had to carry out, in terms of securing the road to Srebrenica.
18 Q. And who ordered those military police officers to do that?
19 A. Colonel Beara was in charge of that. He ran the operation. I'm
20 not sure if he was the one who ordered it or if it was Nikolic. I can't
21 remember which of the two gave the order. But it was ordered that a
22 patrol should be sent to provide security for that road.
23 Q. Were you ordered to do anything to pass on orders to your people,
24 or did they go around you?
25 A. I don't know. I really don't remember whether I was told to send
1 a patrol or whether, perhaps, Nikolic personally ordered the patrol. I
2 really can't remember. I don't know really.
3 Q. And how long did this operation of taking bodies from Glogova
4 last? How many days roughly?
5 A. I don't know. I don't know exactly. A day or two perhaps. I
6 don't know how long.
7 Q. Did the trucks carrying the bodies go right through the town of
9 A. Right through the town of Bratunac, yes, and continued on towards
11 Q. Did people in town know this was going on?
12 A. They probably did. Those who were outside in the street could see
13 it, could feel it. You could feel the stench. So probably people talked
14 and told one another about what was happening. Many people probably knew
15 that those bodies were being moved.
16 Q. Did your unit take part in any investigation into abuses of
17 Muslims on 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th July 1995?
18 A. No. I'm not aware that the military police was abusing anyone,
19 was involved in abusing anyone. At the military police headquarters, we
20 had a legal expert, a legal advisor, Zlatan Celanovic who was in charge of
21 legal matters. The military police carried out no investigations, nor did
22 anyone task us to carry out any investigations.
23 Q. Were you aware of any military investigations into allegations of
24 abuse of Muslim prisoners during the time frame of 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th
25 July by soldiers of the Bratunac Brigade or anyone else?
1 A. No. I wasn't aware of that. This was probably the responsibility
2 of the legal section, the legal advisors, the chief of security of the
3 Bratunac Brigade of the corps, chief of security of the Main Staff. It
4 would have been their responsibility, I assume. But I don't know about
6 Q. You're not aware of any such investigations?
7 A. I'm not aware of any such investigations, no. I know that it was
8 not allowed to do that, that you were not supposed to stop a detainee, a
9 prisoner. Now, as to whether someone actually did this and there was an
10 investigation into that later on, I really can't say.
11 Q. Were you aware of any Bratunac Brigade soldiers or --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, not stop a detainee,
13 abuse a detainee.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Were you aware of any Bratunac Brigade soldiers or officers ever
16 being punished by anyone for abusing Muslims from the period of 12th
17 July, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th July?
18 A. I could hardly wait for the war to finally be over. I could
19 hardly wait to return my equipment to the military. I don't know about
20 any further activities that were being carried out. I'm not familiar with
21 that. I really don't know if anyone was eventually punished or called to
22 account. I know that I was never called for anything until I received a
23 summons to go to Banja Luka, which I responded to in a timely manner. I
24 was trying to recollect all those events, all the names, the dates
25 involved, the time frame. I was trying to recall whatever I could in
1 order to assist this Court, and I will keep on assisting this Court as
2 much as I can. It is a United Nations Tribunal, which is the highest
3 authority possible, and its work is supposed to be carried out in an
4 impeccable manner.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
7 Mr. Karnavas, any cross-examination?
8 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe I do have some, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: You may move to the front.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
12 Q. Good morning, sir.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. I first want to discuss a little bit about your appointment to
15 becoming the chief of the -- very well. Let me rephrase. Let me
17 Before being appointed to your position, as I understand it, you
18 were just a soldier. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then there was an incident where a couple of prisoners had
21 escaped and all of a sudden there was a change of personnel, and that's
22 how you inherited your position?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And along with you, there was a gentleman by the name of Petrovic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And he was a deputy, was he not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, as I understand it when you were being questioned by the
4 Prosecution in Banja Luka back in November 28th, 2001, you described
5 Mr. Petrovic as a good man, an honest man, and conscientious and so on?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you recall seeing that in fact in the transcript of your
8 statement that was made of your -- the statement that you gave in Banja
9 Luka? That's in there?
10 A. I didn't see anything from Banja Luka. Everything I stated there
11 was tape recorded. It was said to me that the Prosecution would send me
12 those tapes. I never received those tapes, but that doesn't matter. I am
13 trying to speak about everything to the best of my recollection. Whatever
14 I succeed in recollecting, I will tell you in the best interest of
15 justice. My aim is to assist you, to assist the Prosecution, to assist
16 the Tribunal.
17 Q. Well, just so we are precise, I would like to show you your
18 statement, a copy of your statement, and I will point you in the right
19 direction and see if it accurately reflects what you have indicated. And
20 I'm referring to now what has been marked as D-68/1. And if you could
21 turn in your version to page 11 and look for lines 8 to 12 -- 8 to 10
22 while the rest of us in the English version will turn to page 10, lines 3
23 to 5. Page 11, lines 8 to 10 in your version. Okay. Now, in line 1 in
24 the English version it states that: "Next to you that there was a deputy,
25 Mile Petrovic."
1 And then further down on line 3 you say: "He was appointed to the
2 post by the command because he was a good man, honest, and conscientious
3 and so on."
4 Do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Now, when you said that of Mr. Petrovic, did you believe
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you still believe it today, that he is a good man, an
10 honest man, and a conscientious man?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Okay. All right. Now, I understand yesterday you indicated that
13 you had gone to the statement?
14 A. Yes. Recently I was summoned, I'm not sure what the date was, and
15 I gave a statement at the police station to inspectors of the criminal
17 Q. All right. And that was in regards to an incident that had gotten
18 some publicity in the paper with respect to your deputy -- with respect to
19 Mr. Petrovic being accused by Mr. Nikolic of killing six -- five to six
20 Muslim prisoners. Is that correct?
21 A. The summons said that I should report to the police headquarters
22 in connection with events in Srebrenica in July 1995. That's roughly what
23 it said. I was not the only one summoned. As far as I knew, they were
24 summoning many people. Practically all members of the Bratunac Brigade
25 were being summoned by the Ministry of the Interior, because they were
1 gathering information related to events the July 1995 in Srebrenica.
2 Q. Okay. During that occasion, were you questioned at all about the
3 time when you were in the APC with Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Nikolic where you
4 went down towards Konjevic Polje?
5 A. No.
6 Q. All right. Now, I would like to go over what Mr. Nikolic has
7 indicated in this courtroom with respect to that particular trip. And
8 then having laid that foundation, I will then ask you a series of
9 questions. All right.
10 And now I'm referring to the transcript on page 1719, line 25, and
11 I will be reading for the next couple pages. It says: "After that, I,
12 you, and Mile Petrovic, that is," and he describes your position. "The
13 deputy police commander from the compound of the Bratunac Brigade
14 barracks, we took an APC," which you knew how to drive, "and we drove off
15 to the Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road."
16 Further down on page 1720 it says, and I'm reading from line 23:
17 "As we moved along in this APC, you," and I'm not reading your name just
18 for the record, you were driving. Mile Petrovic used a loudspeaker which
19 was in the APC, and I sat on the APC. We drove from Kravica towards
20 Konjevic Polje, and after Sandici, Mile Petrovic took the megaphone and
21 called on the Muslims to surrender, the Muslims who were in the woods
22 along the road."
23 Let me stop here, and I've read all the way to page 1721, line 2.
24 Now, sir, as I understand your testimony yesterday, you did not indicate
25 that Mr. Petrovic was using a loudspeaker, calling on the Muslims to
1 surrender. Is that correct?
2 A. That's correct. He did not use a megaphone. I already said how
3 the megaphone was used and who used the megaphone. We did not have a
4 megaphone and Mile did not use one at all.
5 Q. All right. And of course when you were questioned by the
6 Prosecution, you didn't tell them that Mile Petrovic was using a megaphone
7 either? In other words, what you told the Prosecutor in Banja Luka is the
8 same thing of what you said here today?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase, Your Honour.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We never got that story.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase, Your Honour. I'll rephrase. Very
14 Q. Now -- so if Mr. Nikolic stated that here in this courtroom under
15 oath, that would have been false? I can't say that he lied, so we'll use
16 the more -- the softer version. This would be false, that Mile Petrovic
17 used the loudspeaker while you were driving the APC?
18 A. May I say something? I'm not justifying this, but I can
19 understand -- I mean, I know how much I can remember after all this time,
20 how much I can remember certain things. And I can understand that Nikolic
21 may have not remembered all these things. But I remember this. I
22 remember this exactly, that we did not have a megaphone. And I already
23 said that the vehicle was white and blue and it had that rotating light
24 and then there's that loudspeaker between the rotating lights, and I know
25 that that vehicle was used in front of us, about 200 to 300 metres in
1 front of us. I did not even understand what they were saying, because you
2 know the echo that is there, and of course the APC is very loud, too. And
3 then there is this valley and the reverberations of the voice, so you
4 cannot really understand what is being said.
5 Q. All right. So I take it that you believe that perhaps Mr. Nikolic
6 might be confused on this one?
7 A. Well, probably. I don't know for what reason he would make such a
8 statement if it were not true, especially under oath. I mean, if he
9 stated that intentionally, then he is harming himself. He is committing
10 perjury, because of course he took an oath like I did and like everyone
11 else did.
12 Q. All right. Let's move on. You then indicate -- he then indicates
13 on page 1721, and I'm reading from line 8: "When we stopped on that
14 occasion, five or six Muslim soldiers surrendered to us. We took them
15 into the APC and continued on our way to Konjevic Polje."
16 Five or six Muslim soldiers, that's the number that he has given.
17 My question: Yesterday you indicated that it was your recollection that
18 it was only two. Do you still hold to that number?
19 A. It is certain that there were two of them. With 100 per cent
20 certainty, there were two of them. If there were five or six of them, I
21 guess I would have to remember that there were more of them, so there were
22 two of them.
23 Q. All right. So can we say that on this one, as far as you are
24 concerned, Mr. Nikolic is wrong? We won't say whether he's fabricating it
25 or whether he's confused, we'll use a neutral term and say he's wrong.
1 A. Well, probably. I've already said in relation to his previous
2 statement that Mile Petrovic -- I mean, that Mile Petrovic had a
3 megaphone. I don't know. He probably got confused on that one. And then
4 this number, five to six, I don't know how he could have stated something
5 like that. I mean ...
6 Q. All right. Let's move along and see what else does he state. And
7 I'm going to read from line 12, same page, 1721. He says: "We reached
8 Konjevic Polje. I got off the armoured personnel carrier and told Mile
9 Petrovic to take the prisoners to a group of other prisoners who were
10 already there. And I went and I sat down under the eaves of a house that
11 had been burnt and where a certain number of Muslims were sitting there
12 already, captured Muslims. I told him, that is Petrovic, I told him to
13 take those Muslims to join that group and after that to come back to the
14 spot where I was."
15 Then he's asked a question by Mr. McCloskey over here. "And what
16 happened then?" This is what Mr. Nikolic said under oath in this
18 "After some ten minutes or so, I heard a burst of fire not far
19 from the spot where I was. And then -- and this burst of fire reached me
20 from the direction of the building where the petrol station is now. This
21 was on the bank of the River Jadar. Shortly after that burst of that
22 fire, Mile Petrovic came under this awning where I was sitting and told me
23 the following." And I quote, this is Nikolic quoting what Petrovic told
24 him, page 1721, line 24 to 25. He says: "Chief, I've taken revenge for
25 my brother and I've killed them."
1 Now, did you see -- sir, this is a question to you. Did you see
2 Mr. Petrovic taking five or six Muslims behind the building and returning
3 ten minutes later? Yes or no.
4 A. No.
5 Q. And you're certain about that?
6 A. I'm certain.
7 Q. Okay. Now -- and then further down the line on page 1722 he's
8 asked the question -- Mr. McCloskey here asks Nikolic who was sitting
9 right there where you are sitting facing all of us. "So what did you guys
10 do after that?" That was line 8.
11 The answer: "After that, together with you and Mile Petrovic, I
12 returned to the Bratunac Brigade."
13 Now, as I understand your testimony, first of all you were not
14 aware of Mr. Petrovic taking anyone behind a building. Isn't that a fact?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you're not aware of Mr. Petrovic killing anyone on that
18 A. No.
19 Q. You didn't see it?
20 A. No, I didn't see it or did I hear him say something that he said
21 to Mr. Nikolic, I killed someone or something like that.
22 Q. Did he ever say to you that he had to take revenge because of his
24 A. No. No. He never said that.
25 Q. All right. And on this one here -- this occasion, this
1 description by Mr. Nikolic, would you not say that he is wrong on this one
2 as well, based on what you saw when you were there at that time?
3 A. I said already that this was wrong about the megaphone. Also,
4 that it was wrong, the number of persons who got out of the woods and went
5 to Konjevic Polje. And secondly -- or rather, thirdly, that these
6 persons, as he said five or six persons, that Petrovic took them somewhere
7 behind a building, that he came, then gunfire was heard all over, you see.
8 Gunfire was heard from the road, the soldiers that were lined up along the
9 road facing the woods, and that is where Muslims were coming out of,
10 towards the road. They would call out to them without any kind of
11 loudspeaker or anything, just speaking. Then when no one would show up,
12 then they would take rifles and shoot at random at the woods, because it
13 was a thicket, the woods were thick, and gunfire could be heard. Now, I
14 don't know. I mean, I'm saying that I did not see Petrovic take five or
15 six people. Those two were handed over and they were taken to where the
16 others where. I didn't hear him say anything either.
17 So by this very statement of mine, I claim that this was a matter
18 of misspeaking or not remembering right or whatever.
19 Q. Well, let's talk about that. Here we have Nikolic accusing the
20 deputy commander of the Bratunac military police of executing five or six
21 people. All right?
22 A. Well, that's what it turns out to be, that he accused this
23 Petrovic of having done that. But I'm saying that I don't know anything
24 about this and that as a matter of fact there weren't two -- there weren't
25 five or six men there, there were two. I did not hear this statement that
1 he said that he was supposed to take revenge because of his brother or
2 anything like that. I didn't know anything about that.
3 Q. But you knew that Mr. Petrovic had lost a brother. Right?
4 A. Yes. Yes, I knew that. I think that -- I think -- I may finish?
5 Q. Go ahead.
6 A. I think that during this attack on the village that Petrovic came
7 from, the village of Bjelovac, that on that occasion -- I think, I'm not
8 sure. I think he was wounded too. Now I don't know whether this is
9 correct or not, but I think that civilians and military people who were
10 there then -- I mean, they were killed and everything was burned --
11 Q. That information was not a secret. Someone like Momir Nikolic
12 would have known that piece of fact if he wanted to inject it into his
13 story that Petrovic was involved in killing five or six individuals.
14 A. I don't know about that. I know that everybody knew -- it's a
15 small town and everybody knows who was killed and how many people were
16 killed, women, children, military-aged men, civilians, soldiers, all of
17 that was known.
18 Q. All right. Now that I've read to you Mr. Nikolic's statement, do
19 you still think that Mr. Petrovic is a good man, an honest man, and
20 conscientious and so on. Do you still believe that?
21 A. By all means. I still think so. That is my assessment.
22 Q. All right. Now, when you came to The Hague, you stopped at the
23 Prosecution's office where they prepared you to come here and testify. Do
24 you remember that? It might have been Sunday, it might have been
25 Saturday. It might have been both days. I don't know.
1 A. It was on Sunday. I spoke to the Prosecution. As a matter of
2 fact I even came to the courtroom here. They showed me where the Court
3 would be sitting, where the Defence would be, where I would be. They
4 showed me all of this.
5 Q. Okay. And that was just to get you familiarised with what was
6 going to happen, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And from your conversations with the Prosecution, they prepared
9 some notes based on what you had told them and sort of questions that they
10 had asked you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you have a chance to look at those notes? Were they ever
13 provided to you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Well, we won't go into the notes just yet, but -- why don't
16 we, since we have them here and they're handy. Let me show you now what
17 has been marked for identification purposes as D-69/1. And if you could
18 just look at the top -- at the first page, the heading of it, it should
19 read: "Proofing notes in relation," and it has your name. Do you see
20 that, just the first line?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. I just want to make sure that I'm showing you the right
23 piece of paper. That's all?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, if you could go to the very last page, the last page, flip it
1 over. And at the last paragraph it says here that you were shown Defence
2 Exhibit D-37 and D-38 and in parenthesis it says statements of Mile
3 Petrovic and that you were asked to comment on them. Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. May I ask -- may I ask you a question? Go ahead and
6 read the whole paragraph since you're at it.
7 Now, when these exhibits were shown to you, the statements, did
8 you get a good chance, a good opportunity, to read them carefully?
9 A. For the most part -- for the most part, I saw what was essential.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. His recollections approximately coincide with my own, so I know --
12 I mean, the Prosecution told me that Petrovic gave a statement in his
13 village, in the village of Bjelovac, and he gave a statement either to the
14 Defence or the Prosecution, I don't know who he gave this statement to, so
15 they showed it to me. And as for the MUP, I gave my statement on the same
16 day. He was there before me and then I came after him. I did not even
17 know that he had been there before that making a statement.
18 Q. And as I understand it -- now, when you were back in Bratunac at
19 MUP at the police station, you ran into Mr. Petrovic, and that's where he
20 informed you that he had been hearing or he had read some article about
21 accusations made towards him by Mr. Nikolic?
22 A. No. I did not see him then. He was there before giving his
23 statement and then he had finished giving a statement. And then when I
24 entered the police building, his wife shot by me. And she said, "Where's
25 my husband?" And she ran upstairs. The duty policeman was shouting,
1 "Madam, stop. Where are you going? Who is your husband?" And she was
2 just shouting, "Where's my husband? Where's my husband?" and she ran
3 upstairs. And I knew that this was Petrovic's wife. And she went
4 upstairs. She opened the door of the room where I had been asked to come.
5 And when she opened this door, panic stricken and asked, "Where is my
6 husband?" the inspector asked her, "Who is your husband, madam?" And she
7 said "Mile Petrovic." And the inspector then said, "Your husband left.
8 He said that you were waiting for him by the medical centre." She was all
9 pale and frightened and she passed by me as she went over there. They had
10 lost each other.
11 Q. Okay. But in the last sentence of your proofing notes it says
12 that at some point when you spoke to Mr. Petrovic about the accusations,
13 he advised you that you should just tell the truth. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, I said to him, "Say the truth and never be afraid. If the
15 Court considers you guilty of anything, the truth will always prevail.
16 The truth can be concealed perhaps for a while, but the truth always
17 surfaces. So stand by the truth and don't be afraid of anything." And he
18 said that perhaps this newspaper -- I don't know, we said we were vilified
19 or something like that and I said, "I'm not afraid of anything. Let
20 anyone write whatever they want to." I mean, journalists can write all
21 sorts of things. Journalists are journalists. Perhaps Nikolic didn't
22 even state that. How can I know what they write and how they can word a
23 statement. It wasn't an official document. It's not that I heard
24 officially that Nikolic had stated that. It was in -- it was an excerpt
25 from a newspaper.
1 Q. All right. Well, I would like right now to go over Mr. Petrovic's
2 statement that he gave at the police station with you, and I'm going to go
3 step by step and to see whether his statement coincides with your memory
4 of the events as they occurred back then. So let me show you what has
5 been marked for identification purposes as D-37/1. D-37/1 -- I'm sorry.
6 Wrong number. It should be D-38. I apologise. We'll get to D-37 after
7 we get to D-38. D-38/1?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: The witness has said he thought there was the
9 same --
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm entitled to do my
11 cross-examination --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can stipulate and help out in any way, I will.
13 I don't see why we need to go all through the --
14 MR. KARNAVAS: If the Prosecution wants to concede that
15 Mr. Nikolic lied under oath, I will forego this line of questioning.
16 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no. That's not a subject matter for us to
17 discuss. I think the Judges will make our decisions at a later stage.
18 But, Mr. Karnavas, do not repeat whatever we have already gone
20 MR. KARNAVAS: I am not repeating, however I believe --
21 JUDGE LIU: I think your point is very clear. If you have some
22 new issues that you will bring out, you could do it, but do not repeat.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I want to say that I want
24 to establish a fine record, and the gentleman has indicated what he
25 believes. We went through Nikolic's statement under oath. I now want to
1 go through these two different statements and again ask him the questions,
2 because I want to nail down this point. Because the Prosecution is going
3 to argue who's to say -- because this gentleman wasn't next to Petrovic,
4 who's to say that there wasn't an opportunity for him to take five or six
5 people behind a building and kill them.
6 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, but just bear in mind my warnings to
8 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour. I will try to be
10 Q. If you could look now at what has been marked as D-38/1. If you
11 could just look at the top of the page and then look through it and tell
12 me if this document looks familiar. Was this a document showed to you by
13 the Prosecutor on Sunday when they were briefing you?
14 A. I don't know now whether it's this document. I think I saw this
15 document, too, but there's this statement which was taken in Bjelovac,
16 because I saw that it said, "Statement taken in the village of Bjelovac."
17 It means that there's another document too and I think I saw that because
18 I got this document too or rather a similar one. When I made a statement,
19 they gave me a copy at the police station.
20 Q. Okay. Sir, we're going to get to the other statement. My
21 questions are very precise. Was this is document that was shown to you by
22 the Prosecutor on Sunday? Do you recall seeing this document? Yes or no.
23 A. Yes, I did see it. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Now, it says here that it was on the first line that it was
25 compiled on 25 August, 2003. Would that be about the time that you
1 recollect when you went to the police department to give a statement?
2 A. I think I have my statement here with me in The Hague. It's at my
3 hotel room. It's the same date, I think. Because we were there on the
4 same day, so I think it's the same date. The Prosecution or the Defence,
5 if they already have Petrovic's statement, they should have my statement,
7 Q. I agree. I totally agree. I've been trying to get it. Now, I
8 understand you told the Prosecution that you gave a statement. Did they
9 bother to ask you to provide them with a copy of your statement so that
10 the rest of us could have it as well.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I understand.
13 Mr. Karnavas, it's not relevant.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: I think it's very highly relevant, Your Honour,
15 because we are trying to get to the truth.
16 JUDGE LIU: Let's have our break now and think it over during the
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE LIU: And we'll resume at 12.30.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. If I could just take a moment
24 to introduce the Trial Chamber to a member of the team who will be helping
25 us out in court. This is Salvador Viada from Spain. And you will be
1 seeing a little more of Salvador in the coming days. Thank you.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Welcome on board.
3 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. We always welcome more OTP
5 members on the case.
6 Q. Now, sir, let us get back to what has been marked as D-38/1. That
7 was the statement that was given to you, the one that was provided by
8 Mr. Petrovic to the Bratunac police back on 25 August 2003. If you go to
9 the second page, you'll see where there's one part in that page where it
10 has a heading called "statement." Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. In the first part of the statement, probably three or four
13 lines down, it states -- I'll just read it. See if you can follow along.
14 "In July as well as the previous couple of months, I was frequently
15 absent from my unit, that is the military police platoon, because my newly
16 born child was in poor health, so I had to devote more attention to it.
17 That is why during those months I would often be absent for two or three
18 hours at a stretch and I also would be given a day or two off."
19 Then it goes on: "I point this out because due to my frequent
20 absences, I was insufficiently aware of the events in my own unit. My
21 commander," and he mentions your name, "was" aware of my absences."
22 Now, let's stop there. Do you recall whether or not Mr. Petrovic
23 had a newly born child and as a result of its sickness, Mr. Petrovic had
24 to go home occasionally to attend to family matters?
25 A. Yes, I'm aware that he had a child and that there was some
1 problems related to the child, some health problems. Now, how often he
2 was absent, I really don't know or on what specific days, but I know that
3 he did have problems with that.
4 Q. Okay. So this part of the statement would be true based on your
5 memory of the events?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Now, further down he says that sometime in July, he says:
8 "I don't know the date, but I know it was early in July when on my way to
9 the Bratunac command, that is, a military police station, I met Momir
10 Nikolic who ordered me to wait for him at the police station. When I
11 arrived at the station, I asked the duty officer where the commander was
12 so that I could report to him. He told me that he was behind the station
13 building in the," looks like, parking lot, "trying to start the engine of
14 an armoured personnel carrier. I went behind the building and told the
15 commander that Nikolic had ordered the two of us to wait for him."
16 Then it goes down -- well, do you recall that, sir?
17 A. No, I don't remember these details, not the details, but I do know
18 that --
19 Q. Okay. All right. Further on it says: "When Nikolic came, he
20 ordered," and he mentions you, "to start the engine of the armoured
21 personnel carrier, which he did." That is that you did. "He told me to
22 get in the armoured personnel carrier. Momir Nikolic got into the
23 armoured personnel carrier and told you to drive to Konjevic Polje." Do
24 you recall that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Then further down, next point: "While you drove,
2 Momir and I were inside the armoured personnel carrier. Both of us were
3 standing, that is, I was standing at the mounted anti-aircraft machine gun
4 and Momir was beside me at the command post."
5 Do you recall -- is that how it was based on your recollection?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you are not going to read all the
9 MR. KARNAVAS: No. I just have some points. I just want to
10 verify --
11 JUDGE LIU: Try to, you know, focus on the major points.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I am -- well, okay, Your Honour.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no objection to paraphrasing the major
14 points. Reading is not really appropriate in this situation.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: There's nothing inappropriate about it, but I don't
16 want to draw an objection that I'm mischaracterising. And I'm trying to
17 be efficient, so I'll try the middle way, Your Honour.
18 Q. Okay. Further down it says that he noticed that on the left side
19 of the road there were two men in civilian clothes and that Nikolic told
20 you to stop the APC.
21 Now is that a correct fact?
22 A. Nikolic pulled me. I couldn't hear him because of the noise that
23 the APC was making. He pulled me by the collar and told me to pull over.
24 Because I didn't myself notice the people who coming down onto the road,
25 but he was behind my back and he pulled me by the collar. So I stopped
1 the vehicle and then I realised why I had to stop because two people were
2 headed our way.
3 Q. Then Mr. Petrovic says that all of you went to Konjevic Polje. Is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes, but I can't quite remember whether returning from Konjevic
6 Polje to Bratunac or if it was after we had got to Konjevic Polje already.
7 I can't remember whether it was just after we left for Konjevic Polje that
8 we picked up these two persons or sort of going back. That's one thing I
9 can't remember. It's a bit unclear the way I remember it.
10 Q. Okay. And then Mr. Petrovic says that you and he remained in the
11 APC while Momir took the two men to a nearby house. Do you recall that?
12 Yes or no.
13 A. I don't recall who took them. There were soldiers there. I don't
14 know who took them. There were some soldiers there and I don't think it
15 was either Petrovic or Nikolic that took them, but rather they were
16 probably taken as far as the midpoint of the junction and then they were
17 taken over by other soldiers who were there.
18 Q. Okay. Let me stop and ask you, at that point did you ever see
19 Mr. Petrovic taking those prisoners or other prisoners to take them around
20 a house?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right. And I take it had that occurred, had that occurred,
23 given from where you were, you would have been able to see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. So nothing was covering your face? You were able to
2 A. There was a large junction there with buildings there, too, but
3 yes, you could see everything.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. Also where I was with my APC you could see everything.
6 Q. And then he states that, further down in the statement, and I'll
7 paraphrase, that that's when you met a couple of foreigners. And Momir
8 Nikolic began speaking to them?
9 A. I stated things just the way they were. I said that two members
10 of the Dutch Battalion came along. They came along and as soon as they
11 arrived, my impression was that they had arrived from the woods, but I
12 wasn't sure because I didn't speak their language. There was no way for
13 us to communicate. They tried to explain that they arrived. Now, whether
14 they came out of a vehicle or whether they had arrived on foot, I don't
15 know, but they had their equipment with them and they reached that point.
16 Q. Did anyone speak to those gentleman from the three of you?
17 A. I spoke to them as much as I could. I don't know their language.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. One of them sort of spoke some of my -- some words of my language.
20 Q. Okay. All right. Mr. Petrovic seems to indicate that based on
21 his recollection it was Momir Nikolic who was talking to them. Did you
22 ever see that?
23 A. Yes. He also spoke to them. They stayed for about one or two
25 Q. All right. And that's when at some point you gave those two
1 gentleman a ride on the APC?
2 A. Yes, that's correct. We offered to take them back to their unit
3 and they wanted to ride with us towards Bratunac and Kravica.
4 Q. And at some point they asked you to turn around?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Now, are you certain that they were Dutch? Could they have
7 been English, say, United Nations military observers?
8 A. I don't know, but I think those were -- well, be observers or --
9 I think they had their headquarters in Potocari. That's what I think.
10 Q. Okay. Then you brought them back to Konjevic Polje. They got
11 out. Right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Then, according to Mr. Petrovic, Momir got into the
14 armoured personnel carrier and all three of you returned to Bratunac?
15 A. First of all, I must say that a convey of buses came along
16 carrying Muslims towards Milici and probably on towards Kladanj. The
17 convoy was headed by the white jeep with the UN insignia with two persons,
18 two soldiers, in it. They stopped when they saw the soldiers and those
19 two soldiers then took off with them. And we remained there. They didn't
20 stay in Konjevic Polje, nor did they return to Bratunac with us. They
21 took off with those two.
22 Q. Right. Right. And I apologise for not covering that detail. But
23 my point is that the three of you, once they got out at some point, you,
24 Mr. Petrovic, and Momir Nikolic drove back to Bratunac?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Now, if I could briefly show you what has been marked
2 as D-37/1 for identification.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry was the last question a reflection of what
4 Mr. Petrovic was saying happened or what Mr. -- the objection is vague
5 because that's not his testimony.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, see this is what we get into. I get and
7 objection that I'm reading and now they object to what I'm characterising.
8 But let me go back and I'll read back to --
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: My concern was not you reading or your
10 paraphrasing. Were you having him confirm what Mr. Petrovic was
11 saying, which is what you have been doing all along, or were you having
12 him say this, because if that was the case, that's not what he testified
14 JUDGE LIU: Let's do it the easy way.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: That's what I was trying to do, Your Honour. Okay,
16 Your Honour.
17 Q. Okay. Let me read a portion of Mr. Petrovic's statement that he
18 gave to the police. It's sort of in the middle of the page or it should
19 be the second or third page. I'll just read it and tell me whether you
20 recollect that. It states: "We drove for 2 kilometres toward Bratunac
21 and the two Englishmen then said we should turn back, which we did. When
22 we arrived in Konjevic Polje, the two Englishmen got out of the armoured
23 personnel carrier. Momir said good-bye to them, and they got into their
24 jeep and drove off towards Zvornik. Momir got into our armoured personnel
25 carrier and we returned to Bratunac."
1 Now, this is what Mr. Petrovic says. Is that your -- does your
2 memory -- is your memory of the events the same with respect to what I
3 just read?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Tell me what's different.
6 A. The difference is once we had returned there, they stayed with us
7 for a while. It wasn't immediately that the convoy came along headed by
8 the vehicle I talked about, the jeep. They stayed there for a while. And
9 the convoy left for Milici, Kasaba Milici and further down. So they took
10 a left turn and you take a right turn to go to Zvornik.
11 Q. Okay. Now, aside from those details that are missing, is what
12 Mr. Petrovic is saying here correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. So he wasn't as thorough in his statement as you are here
16 A. Well, yes, but when they left, they didn't leave in the direction
17 of Zvornik but rather in the opposite direction. They took a left turn
18 back towards Milici Kasaba and further down.
19 Q. Okay. All right. Now, let me show you what has been marked as
20 D-37/1 for identification. And for the sake of efficiency, I will
21 truncate my questions. On Sunday did you get a chance to look at this
22 document when you were meeting with the Prosecutor?
23 A. Are you referring to the statement taken by the team investigator?
24 Q. Right.
25 A. The 29th of September, 2003. Is that the one you're referring to?
1 Q. Yes. That's the one I'm referring to.
2 A. Yes. I saw this statement on Sunday. The Prosecution showed it
3 to me.
4 Q. Okay. Did you discuss it with him? Did you go over it line by
5 line the way I'm doing here?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Did you raise any objections at the time when you met the
8 Prosecutor with respect to what's in this document?
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. Okay. Now, I just want to point out a couple of things in this
11 document, though I had initially 12 items. Would it be fair to say that
12 this statement is relatively consistent with a statement that Mr. Petrovic
13 gave to the police approximately a month earlier? If you can recall from
14 reading it, if you can't nema problema. Don't trouble yourself.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the relevance of that question.
16 What relevance is his opinion whether or not this is consistent? I
17 just ...
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think --
19 MR. KARNAVAS: It will become consistent.
20 JUDGE LIU: I think it's relevant, but the issue is, Mr. Karnavas,
21 there is no need for you to produce these two more or less the same
22 document to prove one thing, unless there is some new evidence.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: There is.
24 JUDGE LIU: Of 12 items, you mean?
25 MR. KARNAVAS: No, no. I said I'm only going to cover a couple
1 out of the 12. Initially I was going to go the old fashioned way and
2 cover it all, but in light of the time limitations and the Court's
3 rulings, I'm willing to truncate it to only a couple of points.
4 JUDGE LIU: Try to concentrate on those points.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: I was, Your Honour, and thank you.
6 Q. All right. Let me just go and be direct. Mr. Petrovic in this
7 statement indicates that when the two prisoners came into the APC, that
8 Momir hit one on the head with a rifle butt. Do you recall that?
9 A. I didn't see that because behind my head or behind my back was the
10 turret and the lid. So I didn't see what he did or whether he did
11 anything. The door of the APC is at the back of the APC.
12 Q. All right. Now, he has also indicated that it would have been
13 madness, in his opinion, to have even put six Muslim soldiers or six
14 Muslims into the APC, given the size of it and the fact that Momir and
15 Petrovic were armed. Do you have an opinion about that?
16 A. Well, I don't know. What sort of an opinion am I supposed to
17 have? The only thing I can say is that the APC was full of equipment. In
18 addition to personal items belonging to members of UNPROFOR, bulletproof
19 vests, that kind of thing, all the rest, they only took their personal
20 items back to where they were billeted. They didn't take their
21 bullet-proof vests with them, so there was equipment inside the APC.
22 There were packages of water. I'm not sure if it was mineral water or the
23 other water. I'm know that they didn't use water from our springs as
24 drinking water because they were afraid it was poisoned.
25 Q. Do you recall ever seeing Mr. Petrovic throwing small cartons of
1 water as you were driving down, down the road?
2 A. Yes. Yes, he was giving out water from the APC from those
3 packages that were inside the APC.
4 Q. Okay. Finally Mr. Petrovic says that sometime in March or April,
5 lawyers from Mr. Nikolic came to visit him and were asking him whether
6 Mr. Blagojevic had personally given him orders to carry out tasks. And of
7 course he said that he hadn't been given any orders by Mr. Blagojevic. My
8 question to you is: Were you ever visited by these lawyers to see whether
9 you could provide Mr. Nikolic with a statement that the orders that you
10 had been receiving were from Colonel Blagojevic as opposed to or in
11 addition to orders given by Mr. Nikolic?
12 A. I'm not sure when or what year, let alone what month, but I was
13 visited by some lawyers. A lawyer from Bratunac was with them. I think
14 he used to be a Judge earlier on. I didn't know whose lawyers they were
15 and I wasn't interested. All they asked me was, "We heard that you had
16 been to Banja Luka. Do you have anything to add to what you said there?"
17 Meaning that probably there was something that I was supposed to tell them
18 that I had failed to tell the Prosecutors. That's what they meant. I
19 told them that I said everything in Banja Luka, that I had said everything
20 in Banja Luka that I could remember. And I said, "I can repeat the whole
21 story for you, if you like." I really don't know whose lawyers they were
22 nor what their names were. However, recently, as I told the Prosecutor on
23 Sunday, just before I came here, I received a summons to appear on the
24 22nd of October to give a statement related to the trial of Colonel Vidoje
25 Blagojevic and Mr. Dragan Jokic. That's what the summons stated. I
1 received a summons over the telephone. The man said what his name was,
2 but I didn't get it. And the man said he was someone's lawyer. I believe
3 he said he was from Bijeljina. He said, "I wish to speak to you. How
4 long will you be in Bratunac for?" And I said, "I don't know. It depends
5 on the Tribunal and how soon they will make it possible for me to travel.
6 I may leave two or three days earlier and I have other things to do." But
7 no one showed up. And he said, "Are you prepared to talk to me?" And I
8 said, "I'm prepared to talk to anyone who approaches me. There is no
9 problem, really." But no one showed up to talk to me about that. Then
10 later Trivun Jovicic called and told me that the travel date was moved
11 from the 25th to the 26th, and that's when I was supposed to appear before
12 this Court.
13 Q. Okay. All right. Would it surprise you to learn that
14 Mr. Petrovic in his statement says that you can confirm that he did not
15 kill any prisoners as Nikolic has stated in his statements?
16 A. I'm not surprised. I was present there while he went to the
17 middle of the road and came back -- I mean, he went to the middle of the
18 road. And would he kill men, five or six men, there in the road, in the
19 middle of the crossroads? And two people were with us on the APC. I
20 didn't hear him do that, see him do that. And I think he could not have
21 done that. It was there in front of everyone. I was present. I was
22 there. I was right by the APC. This was 10 metres away from me. I would
23 have had to see this.
24 Q. Would it surprise you to learn that after Nikolic made a statement
25 to the Prosecution, and even after he testified, the Prosecution never
1 contacted Mr. Petrovic to give his account of the events?
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, what is the relevance -- there is no
4 relevance at all of what the Prosecution is doing regarding its
5 investigation. This man -- this --
6 JUDGE LIU: I agree with you. Mr. Karnavas, do not involve the
7 other party into your cross-examination.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: Try to avoid any debate as much as possible between
10 the two parties.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: I will, Your Honour.
12 Q. Now, you did give a statement and the Prosecution did contact you.
13 They were interested to hear what you had to say. Right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And, in fact, you went to Banja Luka back on 28 November, 2001.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in fact, there were several people there questioning you for a
19 rather lengthy period of time. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. And by my counting, we have Bruce Bursik who was the
22 investigator, there was Saleem Naqvi who was a lawyer, there was Sally
23 Lattin who was an analyst and, of course, at some point even Peter
24 McCloskey, the Prosecutor himself paid a visit toward the end to ask you
25 some questions. Right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And one of the lines of questioning was about who was giving
3 orders to the military police during those critical days.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. And, of course, every time they would ask you, you
6 would try to provide them with what you believe were true, accurate, and
7 complete answers. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, I understand from what you've told us today that it wasn't
10 until perhaps the time that you came to The Hague and visited the
11 Prosecutor on Sunday that you had an opportunity to physically see
12 transcribed what you had said back then in Banja Luka on tape. Is that
14 A. I didn't receive anything before, not in writing or recording of
15 what I stated there in Banja Luka. Not from anyone.
16 Q. All right. Because it says here on page 4 of the document itself,
17 and it has been marked for identification purposes, for the record, as
18 D-68/1. "That as soon as this transcription process is completed and as
19 soon as possible, a day after, I'll make arrangements for you to get a
20 copy of this manuscript in your own language."
21 Why don't you look at page 5 and, for the record, the pages in
22 your document -- just look at the last number because it's the -- the
23 numbering system is rather different. So it would start with L0078302, is
24 the first page. If you could go to page 5, which would be three pages
25 later -- I mean, page 4 -- well, page 5 in your, and look at lines 14 to
1 15. The investigator for the Office of the Prosecution represented to
2 you, "That as soon as this transcribing process is complete and as soon as
3 possible, a day after, I'll make arrangements for you to get a copy of
4 this transcript in your language."
5 Do you see that, sir?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Now, I take it -- I take it you never got a copy of it?
8 A. No. No.
9 Q. So you never had an opportunity to read it and to see whether you
10 needed to make any corrections?
11 A. No, I never saw this. I never received anything.
12 Q. Okay. And, of course, since you never saw it and you didn't read
13 it, when you came to prepare on Sunday, you were relying on your memory
14 during that preparation process. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, might I ask, did the Prosecution give you the opportunity to
17 first read your statement to perhaps refresh your recollection before they
18 spoke with you or did they give you the statement afterwards?
19 A. I've never read this statement. I didn't read it on Sunday
20 either. I never received this. The questioning in Banja Luka took 11
21 hours from 9.00 a.m. until 8.00 p.m., and I did not get this paper and I
22 couldn't have read it that quickly, because there is so many pages here.
23 I didn't read this on Sunday either.
24 Q. All right. Okay. But I'm skipping ahead a little bit to another
25 area that we're going to discuss. But just while we're at it, yesterday
1 you were asked a series of questions regarding a particular intercept when
2 you were the deputy duty officer filling in for Momir Nikolic who had gone
3 home. Do you recall those series of questions yesterday?
4 A. I recall those questions.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. We discussed that in Banja Luka.
7 Q. All right. Now, my question: When you were meeting with the
8 Prosecution on Sunday, did they extend the courtesy to you to review what
9 you had said in Banja Luka and then give you the opportunity to comment on
10 it to see whether your memory today, you know, was any different than back
12 A. They didn't. I don't know. They didn't show me this. I didn't
13 remember what I said in Banja Luka, but I do remember some events that I
14 remember well and I can talk about those things I remember well. And what
15 I cannot remember, I cannot be certain of.
16 Q. Right. Do you know whether they read to you in English with -- I
17 take it there was a translator there on Sunday. Right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether they read from your transcript --
20 from the transcript of what you had said for you to hear what you had told
21 them back in Banja Luka? If you recall.
22 A. Yes. They read out to me this, this, which pertained to what I
23 said -- what I said in relation to where the commander was, that I said
24 that he was somewhere in the field. And it was differently formulated
25 this sentence, the one I said then during that conversation, the
1 intercept, as they call it.
2 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you, did they show you, did they
3 physically show you a copy of the intercept written in your language for
4 you to look at?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. And is that -- did they also -- now, in addition to
7 that, are you also saying they read to you what you had told them back in
8 Banja Luka?
9 A. No, they didn't read it to me, but the gentleman, the Prosecutor
10 said to me, "Do you remember what you said in Banja Luka? I'm asking
11 you." And I said that I did remember what I said in Banja Luka and I
12 remember what I said. So there was no need for him to read this out to me
13 because I remembered what I had said.
14 Q. All right. Now, we're going to cover that topic later. All
15 right. So right now if we could focus on another topic which is the
16 orders. Because as I understand it from reading your transcript, there
17 were a lot of questions put to you with respect to who was giving you
18 orders. Do you recall that?
19 A. I didn't understand the question.
20 Q. Okay. All right. Well, when you were in Banja Luka, do you
21 recall being questioned about who was giving you direct orders, you as
22 the -- in your position, who was giving you orders. Do you recall those
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go through your statement, just a snip here
1 and there so we can see some of the answers that you gave them and give
2 you an opportunity to see whether your recollection today is any different
3 than it was back then.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object to that as not
6 proper. For a statement like this, it could be used to impeach the
7 witness or before impeachment to refresh his recollection, but that is
8 after a question is asked. Now, Mr. Karnavas may ask a leading question
9 based on information in that. For example, he can say: Did you not say
10 such and such -- or was not such and such your commander? And the person
11 says no, then he can refresh his recollection with this or he can impeach
12 him depending on the situation.
13 But for him -- it's not appropriate nor is it relevant for him to
14 just go through this thing that was read at the time. This witness is
15 here. He is before us. These same questions can be asked, and most of
16 them were asked on direct and have been asked on cross. But to just
17 rehash what is in his statement is not appropriate, is it time consuming
18 and is not allowed in any courtroom I have ever been in.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may respond very briefly.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: If I were back in the United States, I would
22 concede the point to Mr. McCloskey, but we're not. And I'm sorry to say
23 I'm not in the U.S. Federal Court. And I also take exception to some of
24 the comments that he has made because there are areas that he has not
25 covered on direct. I'm willing to adjust. Again, I'll go the middle way,
1 but at some point I've got to do my cross in the best and most efficient
2 way. And this is the way I see, given the rules we have established here
3 in this Tribunal.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe that the most efficient
5 way is for you to put a question to this witness first.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
7 JUDGE LIU: If you did not get the answer you would, show this
8 witness the document. I think that's the easiest way. If the witness
9 totally agrees with you, there's no need for this document at all.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I would generally agree with you, Your Honour. I
11 would generally, but I will do it this way. I will do it this way, but
12 forgive me if I'm not in total agreement, but I will do it this way.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: It doesn't mean that I'm right and Your Honour is
15 wrong. I'm just saying --
16 JUDGE LIU: There's no further comments about -- discussions
17 between us. We have a witness here.
18 MR. KARNAVAS:
19 Q. Now, sir, do you recall being asked who was giving you orders --
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: What was being talked to at that time is not
23 relevant at this point. This is a hearsay document. He can ask him a
24 question who gave the orders, but at this time this is not relevant.
25 There is nothing at question in this interview now. These rules have a
1 reason and it is exactly the reason you stated. It's for simplicity, for
2 clarity, and for credibility.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we have already established that
5 the question of order is a very important issue. There's no problem about
6 it and the Prosecution asks the witness these questions and you, too.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: All right.
8 Q. Do you recall telling the Prosecutor --
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. That is not relevant at
10 this time what was said before. It may become relevant based on the
11 answer to his questions. But the fundamental principle, he's got to ask
12 questions before going into the hearsay and the records all the other
13 material of the case.
14 JUDGE LIU: I understand your point, Mr. McCloskey.
15 Just ask a direct question, because this issue, as I said, has
16 already been settled.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --
18 JUDGE LIU: I mean the issue about asking the questions about the
19 orders, it has already been settled. There's no question about it.
20 MR. KARNAVAS:
21 Q. Is it not a fact that you told the Prosecutor that you would
22 receive orders from Nikolic or Commander Blagojevic, did you not state
23 that in your statement to the Prosecutor I'm raising the question --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Same objection, Your Honour.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm raising the question because the
1 Prosecutor made some insinuations, point to the person in this courtroom
2 who also could give you the orders as if this gentleman never told him
3 that he could take orders from Mr. Blagojevic. Trying to deliberately
4 deceive the court that somehow he had never given orders.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Enough. I will not stand for any more allegations
6 like this, Your Honour. It's absolutely uncalled for, and I apologise for
7 losing my temper. But he has been accusing me constantly of vilifying
8 Serbs which affects my ability in the area and my reputation. Now, for
9 that kind of an unjustified comment, I will not stand for it and I
10 apologise for raising my voice.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think both parties have to cool down on that
12 issue. Why can't we for smooth proceedings, since the witness is in the
13 courtroom. I think the behaviour of both parties will do a lot of damage
14 to both of you.
15 Mr. Karnavas.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: We could have an early break today and we come back
19 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm perfectly happy to go forward, Your Honour. I
20 don't need a break, but if the Court wishes to have a break. That's fine.
21 JUDGE LIU: Then concentrate on your question.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
23 JUDGE LIU: I have warned you, do not involve the other parties in
24 this debate.
5 Q. And those people would be Lieutenant Colonel Popovic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And he was from the corps level, was he not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And also from Colonel Beara?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he was from the Main Staff, was he not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And also there were times when even General Mladic himself would
14 order you. Isn't that a fact?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. You seem a little unsure. Do you recall telling the
17 Prosecutor that Mr. Mladic -- General Mladic himself ordered you and
18 Popovic to lead the convoy. Do you recall that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. And when you told that to the investigator of the
21 Office of the Prosecution, you were telling the truth, were you not?
22 A. Yes. I know that General Mladic ordered Popovic to start the
23 transport, but I didn't know that there would be any escort. I didn't
24 what the escort was for.
25 Q. All right. But do you recall being asked who gave you the
1 information in your answering, "Mladic personally ordered Popovic and
2 myself." Do you recall stating that? It's on page 52 of the English
3 version, lines 1 and 2. Do you recall that?
4 A. I don't know what this refers to exactly.
5 Q. Okay. If you could look in your version --
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. We're going into the
7 statement again.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this is also on a matter where this witness
10 has testified that he is confused, when Mladic and Popovic told him to do
11 this, with one day for another. So this is misstating the testimony
12 that's already occurred on this point and he's going back into this record
13 without any impeachment and without any relevance for refreshing
14 recollection. There's no question before the witness that he has a
15 problem with.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, I think Mr. Karnavas asked a
18 question and I think he saw the witness hesitated about his answer, he
19 referred to this paragraph. I think in this instance, it's quite proper
20 to do so.
21 Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
23 Q. If you could look, sir -- actually, go back to page 51, lines 23
24 to 24. And in the English version it's the same basically. And I'm going
25 to read along. You were asked: "Who gave you the instructions to escort
1 these people from this elementary school out of Bratunac?" Page 51. You
2 just have to look at the last two numbers on the pages at the top.
3 You were asked by the investigator: "Who gave you the instruction
4 to escort these people from this elementary school out of Bratunac?" Do
5 you see it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you answer: "Not from the elementary school in Bratunac, but
8 from the mechanical, the engineering school, from Bratunac."
9 Then you go on, this is page 52, line 1: "Who gave you that
11 And your answer is: "Mladic personally ordered Popovic and
13 Do you recall saying that?
14 A. I do recall saying that, but I told the Prosecution clearly and I
15 was clear when I said that yesterday during my testimony when examined by
16 the Office of the Prosecutor. I confused these two days, our departure
17 for Konjevic Polje and the escort for the convoy as far as the village
18 near Zvornik.
19 Q. Okay. This is what you stated, however, in Banja Luka. Right?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Now, if we go to page 59, it will be 59 around lines 1
22 to 7 in your page. You also make another reference with respect to
23 General Ratko Mladic. This would be -- do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And now we're talking about a white transport vehicle, a white one
1 in the United Nations according to the order of the commander
2 General Mladic.
3 And then you're asked: "And Popovic?"
4 And you state: "In a Golf vehicle of the Army of Republika
6 A. Yes, and that's correct.
7 Q. Okay. Are you saying that these are two different events?
8 A. In a Golf, dark blue, he was driving in front of me to the village
9 near Zvornik. That's for sure! Was that Popovic driving it or somebody
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Popovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And -- but what I'm concerned is I want to make sure that I
15 understand correctly. You're with the Bratunac Brigade. Are we to
16 understand that General Mladic himself ordered you to perform a certain
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And of course if we look at the chain of command, according
20 to what you stated earlier, you were supposed to be getting orders from
21 your immediate komandir which was Momir Nikolic, and when he's not around,
22 from Colonel Blagojevic himself. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And yet according to your statement and your testimony,
25 there were times when Popovic would directly order you or directly order
1 your men to do certain tasks.
2 A. Yes, because that's what the situation was like. The command of
3 the Main Staff and the corps command were in Bratunac, both headquarters.
4 And they had the authority to give orders to any member of the Bratunac
5 Brigade, because the Bratunac Brigade is a unit subordinated to the corps
6 and to the Main Staff.
7 Q. So it was your understanding that if Mladic came and ordered you
8 to do something, you had to do it?
9 A. Of course. That goes without saying. He was the commander of the
10 Main Staff. He was the commander of the entire army. Of course he had to
11 comply with his orders.
12 Q. What about Beara? Why not tell Beara to go and ask
13 Colonel Blagojevic whether he would permit you to carry out one of your
14 tasks -- one of the tasks he was asking you to perform, if he did ask you
16 A. Because Colonel Beara was most of the time staying at the staff
17 headquarters. And he could have given orders even to commander Colonel
18 Blagojevic by virtue of his position, the position that he was holding.
19 He was a security officer with the Main Staff of the Army of Republika
21 Q. But what about Popovic? Popovic is with the corps, the Drina
23 A. Popovic was with the Drina Corps. He was superior to both the
24 brigade and Nikolic. Of course, he too had the authority to issue orders.
25 Q. Now, in looking at your statement and listening to your testimony,
1 it doesn't appear anywhere that you received during those critical days
2 any orders from Colonel Blagojevic. Isn't that a fact?
3 A. I don't remember having received any orders whatsoever from the
4 brigade commander, Colonel Blagojevic, at that time, not any, not that I
6 Q. Nor did you tell the Prosecution that you ever had received any
7 orders from Colonel Blagojevic?
8 A. I don't remember ever saying that or receiving any such orders.
9 Q. All right. And in fact, do you recall telling the Prosecutor that
10 you don't even remember seeing Mr. Blagojevic during that period, that
11 critical period?
12 A. I do recall saying that to the Office of the Prosecutor, and
13 indeed I don't recall having seen him throughout that period. I may have
14 seen him, but not that I remember.
15 Q. And in fact, you never saw him with General Mladic during that
16 period, did you?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. And you never saw him with General Krstic during that period?
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 Q. All right. Now, I want to talk to you a little bit about the
21 intercept. As I understand it, on that particular night at approximately
22 3.30, you were asked to fill in for Momir Nikolic. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where were you when Momir Nikolic called you to take over his
1 A. I was in the same building where the military police were
3 Q. So you were outside -- you're at the front of the gate?
4 A. Yes. The building where the military police were is outside the
5 compound of the brigade headquarters.
6 Q. All right. And were you asleep or were you awake when Momir asked
7 you to take over for him?
8 A. I can't remember that, whether I was asleep or awake. I can't
10 Q. All right. And I take it you can't remember whether you were
11 looking outside your window to see who was coming in to go into the
13 A. No. I wasn't looking. I don't know. I wasn't looking.
14 Q. Now, I take it you weren't the duty officer or you weren't --
15 yeah, you weren't the duty officer for the military police on that
16 particular night, were you?
17 A. No. No.
18 Q. All right. So at some point, Momir Nikolic calls you and now you
19 have to leave that building and go to the headquarters. Right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And as I understand it, the duty officer's room is on the ground
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. So as you would walk towards the building, there is an
25 entrance. Right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And it's a long building. Right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. With three different entrances?
5 A. I don't know how many entrances, but this is the first entrance on
6 the right-hand side facing the building.
7 Q. And that's the one that you would have to go into?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Now, there are two separate rooms on the right side of
10 the ground floor?
11 A. There are two rooms. The duty room, the room where the duty
12 officer was, led to another room, and that room in turn led to a third
13 different room. That's how I remember it, but I can't be sure.
14 Q. All right. Well, let me show you what has been marked as D-70/1
15 for identification. And there are four separate pages. The first two are
16 of the ground floor. The second two are of the --
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, sir.
19 JUDGE LIU: Would you please lay some background for this map, who
20 drew it, where you got it, is it accurate? Are we furnished with this
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour -- well, for the record, I
23 received them from Bratunac from -- my investigator received them from the
24 factory there. And we were going to lay a foundation as to the exact
25 layout of this through another witness. But as my understanding, in
1 keeping with the rules, that subject to foundation or subject to
2 connection, I could show the document to the gentleman and see whether he
3 would accept or reject the document as it is, pointing out to him. If the
4 Court doesn't wish for me to use the document, I could go along and
5 continue with my cross-examination.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, of course you can use this document, but at
7 least you have to tell us the minimum foundations for you to use it.
8 MR. KARNAVAS:
9 Q. Well, sir, let me ask you, the headquarters of the Bratunac
10 Brigade were in a factory, were they not?
11 A. Yes. It was a ceramic tiles factory for the manufacture of
12 ceramic tiles prior to the war in the former Yugoslavia.
13 Q. And had you ever been in that building and walked through it when
14 it was the command post for the Bratunac Brigade?
15 A. Yes. We had a restaurant in the same building. We had a
16 restaurant there. That's where we ate.
17 Q. Okay. But also if you were the -- if you had to be the duty
18 officer, you would at least have to go to that particular room. Right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Now, as you walked through the building, first you -- the
21 first room that you would go to would be the operations room. Would that
22 be correct? If you recall.
23 A. I must say the following: This entrance where the duty room was,
24 as you enter the building, there's a corridor, which I can't seem to
25 locate in this drawing. I'm not sure which way to turn it.
1 Q. Well, before we get to the drawing, sir -- before we get to the
2 drawing --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I just want to focus you verbally and then we'll get to the
5 drawing. First you walk in --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On the right entrance --
8 A. Yes. The right entrance, there was the toilet first. To the
9 right was the door to a kind of conference room with a long table and
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. The room could hold quite a number of people. And then there was
13 a table where the duty officer sat. There was a phone on the table.
14 There was a TV set and there was another door there leading to another
15 room --
16 Q. Which was the operations room --
17 A. -- one or two rooms, and then from that room, that's where the
18 duty officer was. And as for the other rooms, I didn't know, because I
19 didn't use those rooms. It was only for the duty officer.
20 Q. All right. Would it be fair to say that from where you were, from
21 the duty office room, you could not look out the window to see who was
22 coming into the headquarters?
23 A. You don't see the gate from that room. You don't see anyone
24 entering the headquarters. The window is behind the duty officer, behind
25 his back.
1 Q. All right.
2 A. And those windows look out on to the inside of the compound where
3 there's no gate or entrance.
4 Q. So you could not see anybody coming in or out of the headquarters
5 once you got in to fill in the rest of the --
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, it's time.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: And by the way, as for the document D-70/1, the map of
10 the headquarters, we found that there is some B/C/S subtitles. Could you
11 please have it translated into English.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE LIU: So we might come back to this map tomorrow.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
16 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, to prevent any further delay in
17 the proceedings tomorrow, I would like to bring to the Trial Chamber's
18 attention that the next witness, P-117 who I believe may be testifying on
19 direct tomorrow, has custody of several notebooks that we have requested
20 to review before his testimony. And it has become obvious to us or at
21 least represented to us by the Prosecution that the witness did not bring
22 these notebooks with him to testify.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, thank you very much. I'm afraid that
24 you have to come back tomorrow for this testimony and the usher will pull
25 the blinds and show you out of the room.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour. I
2 am prepared to stay for as long as it takes, for as long as the Court
3 requires me to. I have no problem with that. I'll stay for as long as
4 necessary in order to be able to assist this Tribunal.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, I'm sorry to interrupt you. What
8 is your request?
9 MS. SINATRA: No, Your Honour. I'm sorry to be so hasty before
10 the witness was away from the room. So please excuse me. I didn't want
11 the Trial Chamber to rise and leave before I had a chance to bring this
12 matter to the attention of the Court. We had requested to review original
13 notebooks that had been in the custody of P-117 who will be testifying, I
14 believe, tomorrow. These documents were referred to and provided in the
15 Krstic trial as P-282 through basically P-294. The witness took them back
16 with him to Republika Srpska or wherever he resides and made a promise to
17 provide these documents when they were requested by the ICTY. It is my --
18 it was represented by the Prosecutor that this witness did not bring those
19 notebooks with him, and if that's the case then we object to any line of
20 testimony on any intercept, because this witness was the witness that the
21 Prosecutor was relying upon to prove up the chain of custody of every
22 document, every intercept, every bit of evidence related to intercepts in
23 this case. And without these original documents to be reviewed by
24 Mr. Stojanovic or our interpreter, we can't proceed with the questioning
25 or even understand the direct of this witness. So we ask that either the
1 witness be postponed until another time or the OTP provide us with those
2 notebooks before we cross-examine this witness.
3 JUDGE LIU: We even don't know whether those notebooks are
4 relevant to the examination of this witness.
5 Mr. McCloskey, can you shed us with some light?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Apparently this witness is
7 a -- could we go into private session on this?
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.
9 [Private session]
12 Page 3635 redacted, private session
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
9 at 1.54 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
10 the 29th day of October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.