Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3637

1 Wednesday, 29 October 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Call the case,

6 please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Before we start, are there any matters

10 that the parties would like to bring to the attention of this Bench?

11 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you. Yesterday as I

13 understand that when Mr. Petrovic was testifying, Mr. Londrovic, the

14 gentleman who had visited Mr. Petrovic down to try to get a statement from

15 him with respect to Mr. Nikolic produced a statement that would seem to

16 have been provided to him by the Office of the Prosecution regarding

17 another investigation with respect to Muslim attacks and the killing of

18 his father and brother. We have not been produced with that document. I

19 don't know how it is that they, that is the Londrovic team was provided

20 with that. I can only assume they were provided in order to establish

21 motive, that if somebody lost a brother and a father, obviously they would

22 want to kill Muslims if that person happened to be Serb. That must be the

23 motive behind that. And I think, one, it is improper to be giving that

24 sort of information to one counsel and not to others. Now, I understand

25 it's another case, however, it impacts this case. And I think there is a

Page 3638

1 sense of unfairness in this process. And perhaps that is why the

2 Prosecution at times feels that I am attacking them. I am merely seeking

3 the truth. I am not attacking anyone. But when they're going to produce

4 documents for one side, they have to do it for other.

5 I was totally unaware that Mr. Petrovic had ever been questioned

6 by OTP because we were never provided with a statement. He was questioned

7 about a totally different matter. I am not suggesting that they should

8 not have produced it to Londrovic and company, in order so that they could

9 shellac the witnesses the way they did yesterday. But it is fair game in

10 this adversarial system, I guess, but if they're going to do it to one

11 side, they have to give it to us as well. So I'm asking for that.

12 The Prosecution anticipated my other request which was the

13 production of the transcript. I appreciate it. I haven't had a chance to

14 look it over, but I did read the pertinent part from [redacted].

15 So those are the two matters that I wish to bring at this point,

16 Your Honour. And I would like to know whether the Prosecution is prepared

17 to produce that document to us, that is, the Petrovic document. And I'll

18 leave it at that for now.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe that whenever you ask

20 for a document, you have to show us the relevance of this document to this

21 case. I don't think you elaborated too much on that point. I think

22 that's the most important issue.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. How is it, Your Honour, how is it that

24 Londrovic knew of this investigation that was done in the Muslim case?

25 How is it that the Prosecution gives it to them in order for them to use

Page 3639

1 it against Mr. Petrovic. How is it that when I indicated initially that I

2 had a statement from Mr. Petrovic, we received a particular response to

3 the Prosecution, which I'm prepared to read with respect to his comments,

4 and that is: Almost to a single person in the VRS army has denied the

5 Srebrenica incident. I think it's terribly important for us to have that.

6 But aside from that, even if there's no linkage, what I'm doing here at

7 every step of the way, and what I will continue to do, is show that the

8 investigation in this case is not as objective as the Prosecution would

9 want us to believe. I think I'm perfectly entitled to do that, because if

10 they have pursued the investigation in a subjective manner, then obviously

11 it calls into question, you know, what is available out there. Because we

12 need to be mindful that there is no such thing in this Tribunal as

13 equality of arms. There is none. And anybody who says that is absolutely

14 talking nonsense. I don't have seven years to investigate a case. I

15 don't have the resources. Unfortunately we have an adversarial system.

16 We're not on a continental system where we have an objective,

17 investigative Judge who is going to be investigating for both sides.

18 However, I think it has been well said that the Prosecution in this case

19 should behave and act as if they are the minister of justice.

20 And so if they have those tools and those resources, they simply

21 cannot, you know, look -- shy away from exculpatory information. This is

22 part of my entire argument that they are engaging in tactics which I

23 believe sometimes to be less than proper in getting to the truth. So I

24 don't want to be sabotaged. I don't want to be engaged in guerilla

25 warfare. I'm not suggesting we're there yet but we may be getting to that

Page 3640

1 point.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe on your part you have to

3 regard the intention of the other party with bona fide. Let me show you

4 an example. Yesterday we conducted a closed session hearing our witness.

5 It is the Prosecution who takes the initiative to ask for those

6 transcripts to disclose to you.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour, however, the Prosecution

8 was quite apt in pointing out that Karnavas would be asking for it. I'm

9 grateful that he did that, but he knew that there would be an incoming

10 request. And I'm not saying that he wouldn't have done otherwise, but all

11 I'm suggesting, Your Honour, is that there was a strong reaction by the

12 Prosecution when I first mentioned Petrovic. Nikolic, who's testified on

13 their behalf, initially made a statement back in April. There has not

14 been one single effort since then to contact Petrovic, not one single

15 effort to contact [redacted]to see whether, you know, their versions of

16 the event coincide with Nikolic. One would expect that the Prosecution,

17 if they were so interested in the truth, that they would at least go back

18 and say, "Hey [redacted], you never mentioned anything about this.

19 What do you have to say? Mr. Petrovic, you're available, you're being

20 accused of killing six people, what do you have to say?" No, it is the

21 Defence that is going out there and doing that. And that's their

22 attitude, the Defence can go out there and do it. All I'm suggesting is

23 that when I see someone like Mr. Londrovic using a statement provided to

24 them, it's like giving gasoline and saying pour it on the fire. It is a

25 tactic which I would expect if I were back home in the United States,

Page 3641

1 because it's more like a blood sport being in court. Unfortunately,

2 that's what we have in the United States and that's not what we have here

3 and that's not what I want to get into. We have different rules,

4 different approaches. The courts here do not sanction the Prosecution.

5 They do not -- they're not willing to keep evidence out if the disclosure

6 material is late, because we cannot do that. I understand that. So the

7 only tools that I have is my voice. The only tool is for me to jump up

8 and ask for a bit of fairness. That's all I'm asking.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you have to understand that the

10 Prosecution has the obligation to disclose any documents which might be

11 favouring to your client. This is what the Rules say. But, on the other

12 hand, Prosecution is not the investigators of your team. You have to

13 understand that.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I do, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: And I hope you regard the intention of the other party

16 with bona fide.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I have thus far, Your Honour. I only call them

18 into question when I think I need to.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, do you think you could disclose

20 that statement to Mr. Karnavas and to other Defence in this case?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No problem, Mr. President. Mr. Karnavas had asked

22 me for that last night, of course I would have given it to him. I thought

23 we had given it to everyone. Janet tells me we didn't. I can explain how

24 those documents -- they resulted from, of course, the Court's request and

25 I don't think it's appropriate for me at this point to go into it any more

Page 3642

1 of that. I can talk to Mr. Karnavas off the record, as we do frequently,

2 and talk about that.

3 Regarding some of the other matters he mentioned, I think there

4 was three or four allegations in there. I'm not going to get into that.

5 I will just try to ignore it. If there is going to be attacks on the

6 Prosecution, there should at least be a foundation for it. And I don't

7 see any yet. Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: So, Mr. Karnavas, your request is granted.

9 And by the way, could I ask you how long are you going to take to

10 cross-examine the present witness?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, I don't believe I'm going to

12 take that long, but I do understand we don't have any other witnesses for

13 the rest of the day.


15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I understand we don't have any.

16 JUDGE LIU: But that doesn't mean that you can prolong your

17 cross-examination.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: That wasn't my intention, Your Honour. I'm very

19 mindful of the Court's time and I strive for efficiency and precision. I

20 rarely hit the target, but I believe, based on my estimation, I should be

21 through before the close of the first -- well, probably by the first

22 break, one hour, maybe slightly less. I don't know. But I'll try to be

23 efficient.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

25 Mr. Karnavas, I understand you prepared very well for the

Page 3643

1 cross-examination and your questions has some points in it. We appreciate

2 your effort in this aspect. But sometimes your style, you add a lot of

3 words, which we believe is not necessary in your question, which first, is

4 easily to offend the other party; secondly, it will confuse the witness.

5 Certainly sometimes you lose your point. So try to put the simplest

6 question to the witness and try to avoid unnecessary conflictions between

7 the parties in the proceedings.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I will try to limit my

9 adjectives and adverbs and I'll take the admonition and work accordingly.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 Well, could we have the witness, please.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE LIU: I apologise to you that you sat too long yesterday. I

16 think you have to understand that you are a valuable witness and this

17 Trial Chamber just wants to take advantage of your presence in The Hague

18 to make better use of the time available. I hope you could understand

19 that.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fully understand that. It wasn't

21 really a problem. It was a bit strenuous, but it was all right in the

22 end.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Are you ready to start, Witness?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 3644

1 Mr. Karnavas.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 WITNESS: WITNESS P-138 [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued].

6 Q. Good morning, sir.

7 A. Good morning to you, too.

8 Q. We left off yesterday while we were describing the location of the

9 duty officer's room. Do you recall that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in fact, I believe you testified that from where you were

12 located in the duty officer's room on that particular morning the way it's

13 situated, you could not see who was walking into the building?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Now, just to confirm that, I would like to show you

16 what has been marked for identification purposes as D-70/1.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: And accompanying with that, Your Honour, is

18 D-70.1/1 and we have it translated. And I believe the D-70.1/1 gives an

19 explanation as to where the diagram came from on page 2, Your Honour.

20 Q. If you could look at the first two pages, which would be the

21 ground floor with where it's marked 1 and 2 being on the far right and 4

22 and 3, what's marked as rooms 4 and 3 being on the far left. Could you

23 please take a look at that. Do you see it? And if you just look at that

24 ground floor and see if it fairly reflects the outline of that floor as

25 you remember it or as it was, I should say, back then on July 1995. Is

Page 3645

1 this a fair representation of it?

2 A. Under number 2 is the duty officer's room for the brigade, the

3 operations room.

4 Q. All right. Right. And that's what I wanted to get to. So it is

5 actually -- number 1 faces the gateway as you walk into the building. If

6 you were in number 1 and you were looking outside the window, you would be

7 facing the gateway, would you not? Room number 1.

8 A. I'm not certain if there's a window in that room facing the

9 gateway, room number 1, but I know that the entrance to the building faces

10 the gateway.

11 Q. Okay. And from room number 2 for certain, you could not see who

12 was coming into the building if you were in that room?

13 A. The narrow side, the flank of the building from the facade to the

14 right of number 2, that's where the windows were. There are no windows on

15 this side. There is only the door leading to another room, which was not

16 the duty room.

17 Q. All right. So my answer -- my question is: Once you are inside

18 the duty officer's room, you cannot see the way it's laid out, as it has

19 been fairly depicted in this diagram, anyone coming into the building.

20 Right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, when you got the call from Mr. Nikolic to replace him at

23 3.30, I take it you went into the duty officer's room, did you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you remained there until your shift was over?

Page 3646

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And one of your duties is to answer the phone; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, while you were there from the period of 3.30 to 7.00, you

5 never saw your commander, Colonel Blagojevic, did you?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. And he never called you, did he?

8 A. No, he didn't.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm having a problem hearing, although I

10 understand ...

11 Q. And you never went to the commander's office, to your commander's

12 office prior to taking your post -- prior taking over for Momir Nikolic,

13 did you? In other words --

14 A. No. I didn't go to the commander's office prior or after taking

15 over.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm having some technical difficulties, Your

17 Honour.

18 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that you didn't know where your

19 commander was at the time the telephone call came in at approximately 7.00

20 in the morning?

21 A. I don't know where the commander was then, but Nikolic may have

22 conveyed this to me orally when I was taking over from him. So perhaps I

23 could have known, but I can't quite remember, so I can't say.

24 Q. Are you suggesting that at 3.30 in the morning Mr. Nikolic would

25 have conveyed to you that your commander is upstairs meeting with people

Page 3647

1 at that hour of the night?

2 A. It's possible that he did. I can't remember.

3 Q. All right. Is there anywhere in your statement that you say that

4 Nikolic gave you any instructions or gave you any information with respect

5 to any meeting going on in the hours of 3.30 a.m. on that particular

6 morning?

7 A. I don't know if he told me or not. His duty was to record all

8 information that he had received in the duty operations book, logbook.

9 Q. All right. Do you recall ever reading in the duty operations book

10 anything in there that Colonel Blagojevic was having a meeting at 3.30 in

11 the morning or 4.30 in the morning or 5.30 in the morning or 6.30 in the

12 morning or 7.00 while you were sitting there filling in for Momir Nikolic?

13 And it's yes or it's no. Not a maybe. Do you recall ever seeing

14 anything of the sort?

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: [Previous translation continues] ... Objection,

18 Your Honour, demanding a yes or no question is not a fair way to go.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas --

20 MR. KARNAVAS: It's cross-examine, Your Honour. It's --

21 JUDGE LIU: I understand. But you have to lay some foundations if

22 there's a meeting there or there's an allegation of the meeting between

23 3.00 to 7.00, then you ask this question.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: All right, Your Honour.

25 Q. Do you know whether a meeting was scheduled, sir, at 3.30, 4.30,

Page 3648

1 5.30, 6.30 or 7.00 in the morning at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters

2 while you were filling in?

3 A. No. I don't know whether any meeting was supposed to be held,

4 especially at that time during the time.

5 Q. And once you got -- before you went to take up and fill in for

6 Momir Nikolic as duty officer, you did not see any officers coming in,

7 including your commander, Colonel Blagojevic. Isn't that a fact?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. You didn't see any high-ranking officers coming in that night --

10 those early hours. Right?

11 A. No. I didn't see anyone entering the building.

12 Q. All right. Okay. So as you sit here today, as you sit here

13 today, you cannot point to anything concrete that would help us and help

14 you verify that Colonel Blagojevic was inside -- upstairs in his office

15 conducting a meeting with people from up there, can you, sir?

16 A. I have nothing related to that. I didn't see anyone, therefore I

17 can't say who was where at the time.

18 Q. All right. Now, we're going to get to the intercept, but first I

19 want to discuss a little bit about your interview with respect to the

20 intercept. As I understand it, when you were questioned by the

21 Prosecution they had suggested, as a result of the conversation that took

22 place with the intercept, that you were coordinating, that the police were

23 coordinating the refugees being evacuating. Do you recall that?

24 A. I didn't understand this question.

25 Q. All right. When you were speaking with the Prosecutor, did there

Page 3649

1 not come a time when he asked you or that he said that the police were

2 coordinating it and telling the General -- telling the -- that the police

3 were coordinating the evacuation process, meaning that the military police

4 were coordinating the evacuation process. Do you recall the Prosecutor

5 telling you that?

6 A. I don't recall him telling me that.

7 Q. Okay. Well, if you could look at page 83. It might be at the

8 bottom of page 82, actually in your -- but I'm going to read on, from page

9 83, line 1 to 2. But you may want to look at the last two lines of the

10 previous page, and for the English version it will be page 82, line 21,

11 and I'm reading from your statement which has been marked for

12 identification purposes as D-68/1.

13 And if you could read to yourself first all the way to perhaps

14 line 11 on page 83, from 1 to 11.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. In the English, I'm --

16 MR. KARNAVAS: In the English it's page 82, starting with line 21

17 going all the way to page 83, to line 7.

18 Q. Do you see that? Do you see that, sir, where there's a suggestion

19 by the Prosecutor --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And in fact, you correct him and you tell him that you were not

22 coordinating. Right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. You don't need to look at the statement anymore. I'm just

25 going to ask you a few questions. And in fact during that exchange, he

Page 3650

1 had suggested that you were coordinating because you were a commander of

2 the -- or the chief of the military police, and you were having a

3 conversation with a general with respect to the evacuation. Right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And at that point, you told him that you were not coordinating but

6 you were merely having this conversation as a result of a telephone call

7 coming in into the duty office while you were the duty officer. Right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that you were not responding to the general in your capacity

10 as the chief of the military police, but rather, in your capacity as the

11 duty officer. Right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And so had you been, for instance, the deputy assistant of

14 logistics or the chief engineer of the engineering department, at that

15 moment in time --

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, the issue is very clear.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

18 JUDGE LIU: You don't have to confuse the witness.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Very well, Your Honour.

20 Q. All right. Now -- and then at some point Mr. McCloskey who had

21 come into the court, into the room --

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm going to --

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Again, we're going back to going over a statement.

25 This witness, I believe, will answer the questions and probably say what

Page 3651

1 he said before, but just going over the statement is really not relevant

2 unless this witness can't answer or doesn't remember, and that hasn't been

3 established. It would be much quicker if he would ask the questions.

4 JUDGE LIU: Up to now I believe that Mr. Karnavas did pretty good.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: But I don't know what the following question is.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: We don't know because I haven't asked it. And I

8 don't see, unless he's clairvoyant, Your Honour, how he can know. Right

9 now I'm going into the aspect of "up there," that issue.

10 JUDGE LIU: Now, Mr. Karnavas, try to ask a direct question to

11 this witness and do not involve the other party if unnecessary in your

12 question.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, it is necessary because it is the

14 Prosecutor himself who is asking these questions.

15 JUDGE LIU: Everybody knows because we got transcripts. You don't

16 have to emphasise this point. Just put the question.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it's for the witness's benefit, Your Honour,

18 but okay, very well, I'll move on.

19 Q. You then had -- you were then asked about -- you were asked to

20 give an interpretation of this intercept. Do you remember?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. And your interpretation then was different from your

23 interpretation in this courtroom. Right?

24 A. Yes. Because maybe -- well, it is my opinion that in the

25 translation itself -- you see, because I believe that in our language,

Page 3652

1 like in any other language, it is very important where there is a period

2 where there is a comma, so punctuation can change the meaning of a

3 sentence, if you follow what I'm saying.

4 Q. I follow precisely, because that's what I want to ask you next.

5 Did you hear your voice, so you can connect the voice of what you --

6 assuming that you had this conversation and assuming that you said those

7 things, did you hear your voice to see whether a period should be placed

8 where it was placed by whoever was listening in to that conversation? Did

9 you hear a tape recording?

10 A. I did not hear my voice. I got this conversation on paper in my

11 own language, while the investigators, the Prosecution, they were looking

12 at the English version.

13 Q. Okay. Just a moment. So you didn't put that period there

14 yourself?

15 A. I've just said, I don't know whether you heard me because it seems

16 that your headphones weren't working properly.

17 Q. I did. So it's fair to say that whoever was listening in chose to

18 put a period there, as opposed to, say, a comma or just a pause. Right?

19 A. I don't know. Probably the person who was translating that could

20 translate -- well, that's why I'm saying it. There can be several

21 different ways of interpreting this, depending on how it is put.

22 Q. Exactly. And since we don't have a tape recording of what

23 exactly you said, as you stand here today, given your memory, can you give

24 us any assurances that those were the exact words that you had said on

25 that morning at 7.00 a.m. when the telephone came in?

Page 3653

1 A. I have said already in Banja Luka that I cannot remember that

2 conversation at all. I did not remember that anyone called me. How can I

3 know who called me and what I said so many years ago?

4 Q. All right. If somebody was up, for instance, at Pribicevac, the

5 third -- the forward command post of the 3rd Battalion, would you say that

6 they're up there? "Gore."

7 A. I don't know. Pribicevac is dominant. It's a high elevation, so

8 it is up there, I mean -- well, I don't know.

9 Q. All right. Okay. Let me move on to another subject. We talked

10 yesterday about you having to provide security for Mladic and others.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, it is your understanding and your belief that you had

13 approximately 30 men in total. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And there was a certain number of people that you needed to

16 conduct day-to-day tasks that were required of the military police?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In other words, some had to stay at the headquarters?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. And of course when someone like Mladic would come in,

21 you would have to provide security for them. That's one of the tasks that

22 is required. Right?

23 A. It was the command post and the entrance into the brigade

24 headquarters that were secured. As for his movement, all of his movements

25 were secured by the military police. So then I did not have to know

Page 3654

1 whether he came to brigade headquarters, because when he came to brigade

2 headquarters, the military police came with him. And if he left the

3 brigade headquarters and went out into the field, they went with him yet

4 again.

5 Q. Okay. And when they were with him, were they not under his

6 command and control?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And if he wanted to say, once in Potocari, to ask them to perform

9 certain tasks, would they not be required to do so, to do those tasks?

10 A. Well, he didn't have to look for me and to say, give orders to the

11 policemen to do this and that. No way.

12 Q. All right. And I take it they -- your military police didn't have

13 the authority to tell Mladic that he couldn't give them an order?

14 A. Even the corps commander or the commander of the brigade did not

15 dare say anything like that to him, let alone me.

16 Q. Right. And in fact you had seen him kick in a rear a lieutenant

17 colonel?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So you don't know exactly what Mladic might have done or what

20 orders he might have given to your military police officers once they were

21 with him in Potocari, do you?

22 A. They were assigned to guard him personally, to provide security

23 for him personally. He could have chased them away, told them not to

24 guard him at all. He could have done whatever he wanted to do. That was

25 his right. I could not interfere. The commander couldn't interfere, the

Page 3655

1 corps commander, no one.

2 Q. All right. And some of your men, as I understand it, were being

3 directly ordered by Nikolic himself?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And some, as I understand it, were being ordered by Popovic

6 himself?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And it would appear, it would appear, that nobody was coming to

9 Mr. -- to you to ask you for your permission or to give you the -- to

10 provide you with the information as to what your men would be doing?

11 A. I was perhaps a bit above an ordinary soldier, but that was not

12 the practice. I really don't know whether they were duty-bound to do that

13 or not. I really don't know.

14 Q. All right. Now, when Mladic travelled, would he announce in

15 advance where he would be going to the military police so they could

16 provide him an escort or, say, drive down a road to see that it's

17 protected?

18 A. Well, let me tell you, sometimes, for instance -- well, I don't

19 know who asked when he went to Pribicevac, but perhaps it was Popovic and

20 Nikolic, too, who said that General Mladic would be going up there and

21 that there are people are escorting him, the military police travelling

22 with him, with him personally, and providing security for him himself and

23 then there would be this other matter of sending a patrol that would be

24 lined up along on the road at certain intervals because there was thick

25 vegetation, thick forest on both sides, so this road went through the

Page 3656

1 forest. Then it was this road that was supposed to be secured as much as

2 possible. It's a long road. I don't even know how many kilometres there

3 are there. You would need a battalion perhaps, or even more than that to

4 provide security there. Then again, if someone wanted to liquidate

5 someone, they could I think because it's such a long road.

6 Q. What if he was going to go to Konjevic Polje, would he tell you to

7 provide security in advance, to make sure everybody knew exactly what his

8 travel plans were?

9 A. No one knew what his travel plan was. He could decide on that --

10 on his own and now he would think this and then he would think that,

11 whatever would come into his mind, he would simply go and do it. But the

12 road to Konjevic Polje was not guarded by the military police, the road

13 itself, because there were troops, some troops belonging to the Army of

14 Republika Srpska along that road. But military police travelled with him,

15 escorted him. It was a Puch vehicle, and the military police escorted him

16 in a Pinzgauer, I think. So they moved along with him. They were not

17 guarding the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, it's 22 kilometres.

18 Can you imagine how many soldiers would be required to provide adequate

19 security along that road?

20 Q. Would the military police that were with him call in at least to

21 the headquarters, the military police headquarters, to let you or your

22 deputy and others know where they were on the road at any given time, so

23 at least you would know that your men are with Mladic heading towards

24 Konjevic Polje, heading towards Zvornik?

25 A. No. They didn't even have any means of communication, any

Page 3657

1 communication device, so they could not inform the command of the brigade,

2 the brigade headquarters or me personally. And it wasn't their duty

3 either because General Mladic probably wouldn't have allowed them to do

4 that. He didn't want to be held accountable to anyone.

5 Q. Why was that?

6 A. I don't know. Because he was the highest ranking officer. Why

7 would he tell the brigade commander or the commander of the military

8 police or whoever anything?

9 Q. All right. Could that also not compromise his own security if he

10 telegraphed to everybody where he would be going?

11 A. Well, possibly it could. I don't know. He's the one who decided

12 about that.

13 Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Nikolic has testified that on the afternoon of

14 the 13th he learned when he got to the military police headquarters that

15 Mladic would be going off to Konjevic Polje and as a result of that he

16 took a drive down there to make sure that the road was secure for the

17 commander to be -- to come through, the commander of the Main Staff. Now,

18 do you recall knowing anything about Mr. Mladic or General Mladic telling

19 you or telling others at the headquarters of the military police that he

20 was going down -- he would be going down towards Konjevic Polje in the

21 afternoon or around noon time?

22 A. Well, you know how it was. A telephone could be made or a courier

23 could come and say six men are required, six policemen are required to

24 provide security for Mladic, and automatically six policemen would go.

25 And not at any point in time was it said where they would go. So they

Page 3658

1 went. They did provide security for him, but where they would go with

2 him, they didn't know. For as long as he would not say, "I don't need you

3 anymore," they would have to be with him. If he would say, "You're off.

4 You can go now," then they would go back to the police, but in the

5 meantime they were at his disposal.

6 Q. But you don't recall whether everybody in the Bratunac Brigade

7 headquarters knew at sometime on the 13th, around noon-ish, 1.00 or so,

8 that Mladic would be going through to Konjevic Polje, because that's what

9 Nikolic says, that he came and he learned it from y'all and then he went

10 to make sure that the road was secure and safe for the general to travel.

11 Does that sound logical to you?

12 A. No. No. The military police could not know before Nikolic knew.

13 The military police could not know. He could not have said to the

14 military police, I would go to such and such a place when he had his own

15 security man, or rather, the security man of the Main Staff. He could

16 tell him everything. "I will go, you organise whatever." That's the way

17 it is. I don't know that he announced going there at all. I think that

18 he -- they escorted him all the way to Han Pijesak, the military police of

19 the Bratunac Brigade. I think they said that he stopped somewhere and

20 that they filled up the Pinzgauer tank, because it uses up a lot of

21 gasoline, and then they accompanied him all the way up there. And where

22 he exactly went, I don't know.

23 Q. All right. Up there. That's what I meant. Okay.

24 I was making a reference to "gore" because you didn't mention the

25 place. You said "up there," as if that's -- in your language, when you're

Page 3659

1 referring to a place that's sort of up on the hill, you would say "gore"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Now, I want to switch to another topic. When you were

4 questioned by the Prosecutor here the first day, you were asked a series

5 of questions regarding I believe it was the 13th of July. And you were,

6 asked if you knew Nenad Djokic and if you knew Nenad Deronjic. Do you

7 recall that series of questions?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you were asked whether you were aware that according -- that

10 there was a Muslim survivor near Konjevic Polje who had indicated that

11 approximately 16 Muslim prisoners were executed by the banks of a

12 particular river, the Nadja -- Jadar River. Do you recall that, being

13 asked those questions?

14 A. I recall that.

15 Q. For the record I'm referring to the transcript, if the Prosecutor

16 wants to check, it's on page 82.

17 Now, my question is: When you met with the Prosecutor on Sunday

18 to be briefed, to be prepared for here, did he present you with anything

19 to show you that you were at that vicinity of the events when they

20 occurred?

21 A. I don't know what you mean.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. The event that had to do with the killing, is that what you're

24 referring to?

25 Q. Right. My question is: Did he show you anything that would give

Page 3660

1 you at least some assurances that you were in or around the area where

2 those people were taken and then executed?

3 A. I said myself that I was there in Konjevic Polje. Now, nothing

4 was shown to me that would prove that I was there precisely at that time,

5 because I said in which period I was there. Now, it did not have to mean

6 that it was done precisely when I was there. It didn't mean that it was

7 precisely at that place. I was at the crossroads and Konjevic Polje is a

8 village, a settlement which has a rather big area. And then there's the

9 river. It's -- a river flows and it can be a kilometre upstream, a

10 kilometre downstream. How should I know. I just said that I didn't see

11 this and I can't say anything about it. How could I?

12 Q. Okay. Well, he says here: "A kilometre or two on the banks of

13 the river." So as I understand, you were on the road primarily and as far

14 as you are aware, you didn't see any such events?

15 A. Yes. I said that we were at the crossroads itself. I said where

16 we went. I said we were moving towards Bratunac in the direction of

17 Bratunac behind that vehicle, so this has already been said.

18 Q. All right. But I want to make sure -- my question is: Did he

19 show you anything that would give us the impression that you would have

20 knowledge of that event, because you were watching it. You were seen

21 watching it. There's some physical evidence, something, anything, that

22 would give us the impression that somehow you were connected or you were

23 aware of this incident.

24 A. No. I didn't see anything and nothing was shown to me, no

25 document or anything like that.

Page 3661

1 Q. Okay. I want to move to another topic. Yesterday you were asked

2 a question with respect to Radenko Zaric. Do you recall that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Do you know the gentleman?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Now, just out of curiosity, before coming yesterday

7 into court while you were meeting with the Prosecution being prepared, did

8 the Prosecution ever share with you the statement that they had from

9 Mr. Zaric?

10 A. No. Mr. Zaric's statement was never shown to me.

11 Q. Did they ever share with you what they knew of what Mr. Zaric had

12 told them?

13 A. I think I was told in the courtroom. I was told that Zaric had

14 stated that I had sent him to Potocari to --

15 Q. I'm asking you before coming to the courtroom, did they give you

16 an opportunity and did they tell you what Zaric had said and give you an

17 opportunity to provide them with an answer? I don't see it in the

18 proofing notes.

19 A. I think we didn't discuss that. This was not mentioned. I think

20 we only talked about that here in the courtroom, that's why I'm saying

21 this, but not before.

22 Q. Okay. And as also I -- very well.

23 (redacted).

24 (redacted).

25 (redacted).

Page 3662

1 (redacted).

2 (redacted).

3 (redacted).

4 (redacted).

5 (redacted).

6 (redacted).

7 (redacted).

8 (redacted).

9 (redacted).

10 (redacted).

11 (redacted).

12 (redacted).

13 (redacted).

14 Q. Well, what was Mr. Jovanovic's position?

15 A. He was -- before me, he was the commander of the military police,

16 and then he was transferred to -- I don't know -- there are certain

17 distinctions to be drawn there, but I can't quite -- chief of security

18 with the Bratunac Brigade staff, that was Nikolic. Now, there was

19 something concerning intelligence. I can't quite remember the exact term,

20 what the position was called exactly, but he was based in an office,

21 together with Nikolic. So again, he had to do with the police.

22 Q. Okay. Where Mr. Nikolic in his testimony indicated that

23 Mr. Jovanovic was not there, was not -- was outside the Bratunac area

24 during these critical periods, yet Mr. Zaric says that he believes he saw

25 Mr. Jovanovic in Potocari on that day. Do you have a comment about that?

Page 3663

1 You've got one Prosecution witness saying he's no where near the area.

2 You've got another witness saying he's in Potocari. Do you recall seeing

3 Mr. Jovanovic there that day?

4 A. I don't know where he was, where Jovanovic was on that day. I

5 really don't remember.

6 Q. Okay. Now, at some point he's asked, Mr. Jovanovic [sic] in his

7 statement, he's asked about how many people went up to Potocari. And he

8 states, everybody in the military --

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he's got the names mixed up.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. Sorry.

13 Q. I was just corrected improperly so. Mr. Zaric is asked during his

14 interview, and I'm reading from page 6. From his interview he's asked:

15 "And when you were deployed to the enclave, who was deployed with you?"

16 And on page 7, lines 1 all the way down through 4 he says: "So all of us,

17 everybody in the military police. I think about 20 of us were all

18 deployed in that area."

19 And the next question is: "Were you all summoned to one central

20 point before being deployed and given a briefing?"

21 And his answer is: "No."

22 So he seems to think that everybody, and then he qualifies it to

23 about 20 people in the military police being summoned and told to go to

24 Potocari. As I understand your testimony, yesterday you said you did not

25 issue such orders. Is that correct?

Page 3664

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And as I further understand you, given the size of your platoon,

3 the military police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade, and given the

4 day-to-day tasks, including providing security for Mladic, this would have

5 been an impossibility?

6 A. Precisely. This would have been impossible. There were other

7 ongoing activities. This number as specified, 30 people, we were all

8 there, we were all on the list, the 30 of us. 10 people remained for all

9 the other activities, the checkpoint, guarding the bridge, guarding the

10 members of the Dutch Battalion, securing the wounded who were at the

11 clinic, at the health centre, securing the command post, guarding the

12 military police building, personal security for General Ratko Mladic.

13 Q. Now, in this -- Mr. Zaric says that a car was sent to pick him up

14 at home because he was -- he had a day or two off. Were there a lot of

15 military police officers that had days off during those days or was

16 everybody deployed because of the circumstances?

17 A. Because of the circumstances, no one was allowed to leave the

18 unit. Someone may have been sick or a family member may have been sick.

19 But the person would only have been allowed to leave briefly for a day or

20 two maybe, even in that case.

21 Q. All right. Now, I want to switch to another topic, and that is

22 dealing with the security of the schools in Bratunac or where the Muslim

23 prisoners were detained. As you might recall, yesterday we talked

24 about -- there was some questions posed to you by the Prosecutor. Do you

25 recall that?

Page 3665

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you told us that you received an order by Mr. Nikolic. Is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, when Mr. Nikolic gave you the order, he did not say that this

6 order was coming from the commander, your commander, Colonel Blagojevic,

7 did he?

8 A. No. He didn't tell me where the order had come from, nor was he

9 duty bound to tell me about that, who he had received his order from.

10 Q. All right. Did he tell you exactly how many men you had to

11 provide?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did he tell you that it was your -- your responsibility, that is,

14 the responsibility of the military police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade

15 to guard all those prisoners?

16 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand the question.

17 (redacted).

18 (redacted).

19 (redacted).

20 (redacted).

21 (redacted).

22 (redacted).

23 (redacted).

24 (redacted).

25 (redacted).

Page 3666

1 (redacted).

2 A. No. He didn't say that it was my responsibility. He said I

3 should send people over there to help because there were very few soldiers

4 there. I'm not sure from whose unit, that assistance should be provided

5 for them in carrying out security tasks there.

6 Q. All right. And he did not tell you that those prisoners belonged

7 to and were under the control of the Bratunac Brigade, did he?

8 A. No, he didn't. He didn't say. It was under the control of the

9 Army of Republika Srpska. Now, which particular unit -- very many units

10 took part in that operation from all over the place, all sorts of units,

11 but only the Bratunac Brigade could have done this job.

12 Q. All right. And you said that Mladic was there with his forward

13 command post at the Hotel Fontana only a few hundred metres away. Right

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: The testimony was that Mladic was in Han Pijesak

17 at this time.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase, Your Honour.

19 Q. You indicated that Mladic's forward command post, the command post

20 of the Main Staff of the VRS army, was located during that period in time

21 in the Hotel Fontana, only a few hundred metres away from where these

22 prisoner were being detained. Right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And is your understanding that the Drina Corps forward command

25 post during those days was also at that same hotel, Hotel Fontana?

Page 3667

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And of course we have Colonel Beara running around Bratunac.

3 Right?

4 A. I'm not sure if he was running around Bratunac, but I do know that

5 he was part of the Main Staff that was based at the Fontana Hotel.

6 Q. And you know Popovic was there and giving orders to your men.

7 Right, from the Drina Corps?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. And you saw Nikolic with Beara and Popovic together?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: This may be a good time to take a break, Your

12 Honour. I don't have too much more, I think 15 more minutes perhaps.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll break now and we'll resume until quarter

14 to 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Now, before we get on to the next subject, I just want to ask you

20 one question. It's my understanding that in your statement to the

21 Prosecution you had indicated that the Bratunac Brigade military police

22 were not coordinating and not communicating -- or not communicating, I

23 should say, with MUP. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 (redacted).

Page 3668

1 (redacted).

2 (redacted).

3 (redacted).

4 (redacted).

5 Q. Okay. Now, you were asked some questions about Pilica; do you

6 recall that, yesterday?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And it's been established that two members of the Bratunac Brigade

9 military police were in Pilica. Do you recall that?

10 A. I don't know how many there were, whether two or a different

11 number.

12 Q. Okay. But they said -- they used the word "patrol," and that was,

13 I believe, your understanding and that that would constitute two police

14 officers, two military police officers. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And if I understand your testimony from yesterday, you don't know

17 how they got there. In other words, who ordered them to be there.

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And in fact you did not know at the time that they were up there?

20 A. I didn't know because I wasn't there myself. I went to the other

21 village that I talked about.

22 Q. And it was later on that you learned they had been up there?

23 A. I don't know when I learned.

24 Q. Did you ever hear that your -- anybody under your command had

25 committed any atrocities?

Page 3669

1 A. I was not aware of anything like that.

2 Q. All right. Did you ever try to find out how it was or who it was

3 that ordered those two or that patrol of the Bratunac Brigade military

4 police to be up in Pilica?

5 A. I don't know who ordered them, nor did I ever try to find out who

6 did.

7 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Nikolic indicated when he entered into an

8 agreement with the Prosecution, he had indicated certain things that made

9 it into the newspaper in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you recall reading some

10 things that were stated by Mr. Nikolic in his statement of facts and

11 acceptance of responsibility before this Tribunal?

12 A. Yes, I remember. I have a copy of the article from the newspaper

13 when the statement was published.

14 Q. All right. And I take it you read that statement, did you not?

15 You read the article?

16 A. Yes. I can even show my copy to the Honourable Chamber, if

17 necessary.

18 Q. All right. And was that printed about the time that Nikolic

19 entered into this agreement? Would that have been around April or May of

20 this year?

21 A. I don't know exactly when it was published, whether it was before

22 or after his agreement with the Office of the Prosecutor. I do know that

23 it was published. That's all I know. Whether it was before of after, I

24 really can't say.

25 Q. And do you happen to have it here in the courtroom?

Page 3670

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Right now?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. You don't mind sharing it with us. If I could take a look

5 at it real quickly. All right.

6 If we could put it on the ELMO for just a second. Let me just ask

7 him a couple of questions regarding that. Okay. Sorry.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll be asking that that be moved into evidence,

9 Your Honour, if we could make a copy at some point.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, do you have the translation of

11 this article?

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't have the translation, but I'm prepared to

13 ask some questions, just some foundational questions, and then at some

14 point we can have the article translated. But I'm not going to go into

15 depth -- into the content of the article itself.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, as the extraordinary case, we will allow you to

17 do that. But just remember, we will not accept any documents which we

18 don't understand at all.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour. And I'm improvising at

20 this point.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's see how far you can go with this article.


23 Q. Now, if you could look at the top of the article, sir, take a look

24 at the top of it, and please tell us the date.

25 A. What it says here is the following: "The subject, daily Avaz, 8th

Page 3671

1 of May, 2003."

2 Q. Okay. 8th May, 2003. Now, since that time, sir, has the

3 Prosecution contacted you to get your account of what Mr. Nikolic had said

4 with respect to Mr. Petrovic?

5 A. No, although I expected to be contacted by the Office of the

6 Prosecutor and be invited to give my account, but I was never called

7 before I got the date, the 22nd of October 2003, to appear here before the

8 Court.

9 Q. Were you in Bratunac this entire period?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you in hiding or were you -- could you be seen in case

12 somebody wanted to contact you?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. This appears to -- I

14 don't understand the relevance.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: The relevance is quite obvious, Your Honour. Had

16 the Prosecution wished to contact him he was available. He was not in

17 hiding and he was within their grasp and reach.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we don't think this question is

19 necessary. The point is very clear.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Well, I wasn't sure, Your Honour. I wasn't

21 sure.

22 JUDGE LIU: We are sure.


24 Q. Now, you were invited, were you not, by the police department of

25 the Bratunac municipality to give a statement, were you not?

Page 3672

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Were you provided with the statement that they had prepared as a

3 result of the statement -- as a result of your conversation with them?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, I happen to have a copy of it and if I may share it with you.

6 And this would be D-71 -- D-71/1 for identifications purposes.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: It has not been translated, Your Honour. We just

8 received this by fax, but I have a way of getting what it is that we need

9 to get out of this statement. I will have it translated at some point.

10 Q. Now, sir, if you could just look at it and see whether you

11 recognise this.

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted] And the Prosecutor asked me to bring

15 it along, so I have. I have it here with me. I've brought it today. I

16 managed to locate it and I brought it to court today. I'm familiar with

17 this statement because I received this statement immediately after I had

18 given the interview.

19 Q. All right. So the statement I've handed you is identical to the

20 one you just pulled out of your pocket?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Very well. Now, if you could look at the third page, the

23 third page and if I could ask you to read so we can get a translation of

24 the very last paragraph on this statement. If you can just read it and

25 we'll get a translation.

Page 3673

1 A. I also wish to state that I had the opportunity of reading the

2 text of the alleged statements made by Nikolic, Momir, in newspapers such

3 as Dnevni Avaz and other newspapers, and I did not recognise as true the

4 statement presented in these newspapers, because what was presented in the

5 newspapers was completely false, in my opinion, as well as inaccurate

6 information given about me and other persons named in the text. So I

7 cannot accept this statement as truthful.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Do you know whether during this period of time

9 from May until today, whether Mr. Petrovic was in Bratunac?

10 A. I think so.

11 Q. And of course he gave a statement as well, as you well know.

12 Right?

13 A. He gave a statement on that same day. I've said that it was the

14 same day when I was there, but he was there before me. It says here -- I

15 beg your pardon. It says here -- I didn't even see it before. I mean, I

16 don't remember seeing it. I saw it last night when I was looking for this

17 document when I came from this court. I saw that it says here quite

18 nicely what the date is and also on the top it says: "Started at 1240

19 hours." And at the end it says: "The statement taking was completed at

20 1430 hours." So the time is there, how long the statement was taken.

21 Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, you began your career as a

22 police officer. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in fact you were a police officer were several years before

25 you became -- you switched careers?

Page 3674

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Given your background and experience, given your

3 background and experience, do you not think that it would have been

4 appropriate for the Prosecutor to come down to Bratunac and to take a

5 statement from Mr. Petrovic as well.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to relevance, Your Honour. Unless -- if

8 the Prosecution has been established to be on trial here, I would like to

9 know about it.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: They are.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think he's established one width of

12 evidence and -- thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. I quite agree with you.

14 Mr. Karnavas, I warned you before the start of the trial about

15 that. It's not necessary. Do not involve the other parties unless you

16 have some concrete specific case.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

18 Q. Mr. Petrovic was available during this entire period in Bratunac,

19 had the Prosecutor wanted to contact him and take a statement. Isn't that

20 a fact?

21 A. They could have taken a statement from me and from Petrovic and

22 from many other persons who were there. I don't know. I don't know about

23 anybody hiding any of the people who are mentioned.

24 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday I began by asking you and pointing out that

25 section where you believed Mr. Petrovic to be a good man, an honest man,

Page 3675

1 conscientious and so on. Do you recall that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, as you know, he lost some members of his family during the

4 war?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. I know that he lost his brother. I don't know whether he lost any

8 other family members.

9 Q. But isn't it a fact, sir, that as long as you have known him, as

10 long as you have known him, and while he served with you with the Bratunac

11 Brigade in the military police, that he always conducted himself

12 correctly. Isn't that a fact?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may have just one second, Your Honour.

15 (redacted).

16 (redacted).

17 (redacted).

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you have to understand this

19 witness is under the protective measures. There were several occasions

20 that you accidentally mentioned something which might disclose the

21 identity of this witness. Could we go into the private session.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted).

Page 3676












12 Page 3676 redacted, private session














Page 3677

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] When we looked at yesterday's

4 transcript of this witness's testimony, it seemed to us that we had a few

5 things that needed clarification. So, Your Honour, those are the only

6 questions we have. I don't think we have anything that would be relevant

7 to our defence otherwise.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Could we please just clarify some things that could be important.

12 Yesterday and today in response to -- or rather yesterday, in response to

13 the Prosecutor's questions, you said when speaking about the 14th of July,

14 1995, that you got orders from Popovic and Major Nikolic to help with the

15 escort of Muslim prisoners to Zvornik. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Also, you said that this was sometime around 10.00?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then you went on to say that you were in this column with an

20 APC and that the column was being lined up behind you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that --

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, we still have time, Mr. Stojanovic.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. That a few times you moved the APC so that the column could be

Page 3678

1 lined up?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That at one point in time they walked up to you and asked you

4 whether you were supposed to tank up?

5 A. Yes. That was where the road forks off towards the headquarters

6 of the brigade.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone was not on. The microphone is

8 still not on.

9 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone. Thank you.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. And finally, you left around 1330 hours?

12 A. When I filled up, then I moved yet again, then we waited there for

13 a while. I don't know for how long, perhaps about 1.30 or 2.00 we left

14 from that place.

15 Q. That is precisely the fact we wanted to clarify, so around 1.30 or

16 2.00 you set out for Zvornik?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What is the distance between Bratunac and Zvornik?

19 A. From Bratunac to Zvornik the distance is registered as being 43

20 kilometres.

21 Q. So this kind of column on that day, the 14th of July, 1995, how

22 much time did you need to cover these 43 kilometres?

23 A. Since this was a column, it could not move fast, although it did

24 not stop on the way. So the tempo of the movement of this column was

25 dictated by Colonel Popovic. He was at the head of the column with this

Page 3679

1 vehicle of his. I apologise to the interpreters again for fiddling with

2 the microphone.

3 So all the vehicles had a proper distance between each other. So

4 we were moving along that way. I don't know at which speed really,

5 because I was driving this vehicle and I wasn't really looking, but the

6 speed on that particular vehicle is shown in miles. But most probably, I

7 don't think that the column could be moving even at 40 kilometres per

8 hour, so perhaps it needed about an hour, an hour and a half to get there,

9 because it even went on further, so these are narrow roads.

10 Q. If I draw the right conclusion, that would mean that you would

11 have reached Zvornik around 1430 hours or 1500 hours on that day, the 14th

12 of July?

13 A. Yes, around that time.

14 Q. And you said that you did not stop in front of the headquarters of

15 the Zvornik Brigade?

16 A. No, we did not. We did not stop anywhere until that school. I

17 just stopped by a bridge on this road when one turns towards the village

18 of Sapna because this was a narrow, concrete bridge and I wasn't sure, I

19 couldn't assess from that vehicle, whether I could safely cross this

20 bridge. I did not know how it was constructed, this concrete

21 construction, and of course how wide it was, because the vehicle itself is

22 rather wide.

23 Q. So you were in front of that school around 1500 hours or 1530

24 hours?

25 A. Well, yes, around that time. We probably needed about an hour and

Page 3680

1 a half to get there. Perhaps it was 1500 hours, perhaps 1530 hours,

2 because we were moving very slowly along this narrow road. We moved very

3 slowly from the fork off near Karakaj to the left. And then after this

4 wider road, we turned to the right, again a narrower road which is not as

5 wide as the other one that goes from Karakaj itself.

6 Q. Did you see whether there were any prisoners who had been brought

7 to that school before you?

8 A. I did not see any prisoners in the school, because of course I did

9 not even enter the school. I did not get out of the APC. But it is my

10 assumption that there was no one there in that school, that the school was

11 empty.

12 Q. So in this context let us take care of one thing. It is possible

13 that a similar convoy of the same size left from Bratunac on that same

14 morning and went there?

15 A. I don't know. Perhaps it could have gone early in the morning,

16 but again I'm telling you, perhaps around 10.00, 9.30. As I said, I was

17 parked at the crossroads at around 10.00 near the bus station. So at that

18 time no one could have passed there. And I think that not a single convoy

19 left before that.

20 Q. Further on you said that during this journey all the time, and on

21 the basis of the information that was given to you by Major Nikolic, it

22 was said that these people were going for an exchange?

23 A. Yes. Yes. Not at a single moment -- I mean, I said this because

24 I knew this. It was logical to me. They said that many of our people

25 stayed behind in Tuzla, and I have to point this out here before the

Page 3681

1 Court. In Tuzla, the population did not have very strong ethnic feelings,

2 generally speaking, throughout the territory of Tuzla. When speaking of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina and all of the former Yugoslavia, when people voted for

4 national parties, it was only in Tuzla in that the reformist forces won

5 the election, whereas in all other bigger towns and cities, the

6 nationalist parties one. So that is why a lot of people stayed there.

7 People did not move out of the territory of the municipality of Tuzla.

8 Many people of Serb ethnicity remained in the territory of the

9 municipality of Tuzla. They stayed on there. They lived there. Then

10 after the 15th of May when at Brcanska Malta those soldiers were killed,

11 and then Tuzla was blocked, sealed off, and then people could no longer

12 get out of Tuzla. And it seemed logical to me that now, perhaps it was

13 somebody's decision, that these people from Srebrenica would be exchanged

14 for the people who were there and who wanted to get out of Tuzla, who were

15 blocked in Tuzla.

16 Q. So there was no reason, there were no grounds for any one of you

17 who was escorting this convoy could conclude what would happen to the

18 prisoners?

19 A. No, no one could conclude what would happen to the prisoners.

20 It's nonsense. I mean, how could anyone think that? This is what seemed

21 logical and I said that it was logical, that these people would be taken

22 to the area that was under the control of their forces and the people who

23 wanted to get out of this territory because they were blocked, of course

24 they could not leave, and that then they could go to the territory they

25 wanted to go to. If they didn't want to go, of course nobody could coerce

Page 3682

1 them.

2 Q. Just another question. As you were headed for the school once you

3 turned off from the Zvornik/Bijeljina road, did you perhaps notice another

4 crossroads with a fountain nearby?

5 A. I don't remember that particular crossroads.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

7 questions. Thank you

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any re-direct?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

10 Re-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

11 Q. Witness, do you recall telling the Office of the Prosecutor in

12 your interview in Banja Luka that you had seen Mr. Beara in the Bratunac

13 Brigade compound?

14 A. Yes, I did see him in the compound of the Bratunac Brigade.

15 Q. Can you tell us, was that before or after the fall of Srebrenica?

16 A. I don't know if it was before or after the fall. I can't

17 remember.

18 Q. Did you see him in the compound after the fall?

19 A. As I said, I don't know whether I saw him before or after the fall

20 of Srebrenica. At any rate, he was there always. He was moving about the

21 area, the Bratunac area. He was based at the Fontana Hotel. It's

22 possible that he came over, but I can't be sure as to when exactly I saw

23 him.

24 Q. But did he come over to the Bratunac Brigade compound frequently

25 during this time period?

Page 3683

1 A. Not frequently, no. Not frequently.

2 Q. How often would you say?

3 A. I don't know how often. I can't answer your question accurately.

4 It's difficult to say. There was no prescription saying how often he was

5 supposed to be there, like every morning, every afternoon. I really don't

6 know how often he came. Whenever he needed to, I suppose. I can't say

7 how often exactly or whether his visits were frequent. I didn't see him

8 every single time he came. Maybe he spent more time there than I

9 realised. I know that I saw him once inside the compound. As to when

10 precisely this was, at which point in time, I really can't say.

11 Q. Where inside the compound did you see him?

12 A. In the compound near the entrance and then towards the kitchen.

13 Q. So he was actually in the command headquarters towards the

14 kitchen?

15 A. As I said, outside in the compound where the brigade headquarters

16 was, we looked at the building at the layout, the ground plan of the

17 building, so at the far right of the building you had the duty room and

18 then there was several doors. I don't remember how many. But there was a

19 restaurant there where I ate as well. There was our kitchen, the kitchen

20 of the brigade headquarters where the military police ate.

21 Q. Was he inside the building or outside the building when you saw

22 him?

23 A. Outside the building, as I said. In the compound but outside the

24 building towards the kitchen door, the entrance to the restaurant.

25 Q. Did you see General Mladic around the compound during these days?

Page 3684

1 A. I saw General Mladic when he was with Colonel Popovic. That's

2 when I saw him inside the compound, but I can't remember any other time.

3 Q. General Krstic, did you see General Krstic in the compound during

4 this time frame?

5 A. I didn't see General Krstic inside the compound of the brigade

6 headquarters at that time or in the brigade headquarters itself.

7 Q. Are you sure you didn't tell us that you saw General Krstic in the

8 compound back in Banja Luka or around the brigade headquarters somewhere?

9 A. I don't know. I may have seen him, but I can't remember right

10 now. Back in Banja Luka, that was two years ago.

11 Q. Okay. Did you see General -- do you know if General Mladic, after

12 he was escorted to Han Pijesak by the MPs, do you know if he came back to

13 the area of Bratunac?

14 A. I think so. I can't be sure, but I think he did.

15 Q. Okay. Now, you were asked a question in Banja Luka of what

16 happened if a superior outside your normal chain of command gave you an

17 order. And this is how you responded, it's page 18, line 1 through 4.

18 "If superiors were there and then the orders would be convoyed

19 through them. If they were not there, then okay. But in any case, after

20 any assignment or a task was completed, then everything would be told,

21 people would be informed about it, about what was done. There was no

22 concealing of anything. There was no need to conceal anything."

23 Now, I'm just asking you generally, as a general military

24 principle, do you stand by that statement? I'm not asking you about the

25 specific events now, but as a general military principle of who you

Page 3685

1 reported to when, do you stand by that statement?

2 A. I don't think I understood this. I didn't understand the wording.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could have one second. If we could just show

4 him his own words starting at page 18, line 1.

5 Q. And if you could just read those words out loud so we can all hear

6 them to make sure I've got the right one. Could you read that out loud.

7 A. The first thing, top of the page, line 1: "If superiors were

8 there, then they would send orders through them. If they were not around,

9 then -- but at any rate after every assignment, after every completed

10 assignment, everything was said, everything was known, that it had been

11 engaged and that where -- probably where, it should say, where it had been

12 engaged and that nothing was concealed. There was no need."

13 Q. Do you stand by that statement today?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes --

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further --

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: In the interest of completion, I would ask that he

19 read the next question and the following answer right after that, because

20 I think it gives more context to the portion that he just read. And under

21 the principle of completion, I believe that should be done.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think Mr. McCloskey just asked a very general

23 question in the general of circumstances.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, he's then -- the investigator then

25 asks him to clarify it. And the answer he gives is: "Yes, I would

Page 3686

1 definitely get in touch with them to let them know what was ordered.

2 However, it wasn't possible to get in touch with them every time, because

3 I said you didn't -- who was aware."

4 So that's the portion I wanted to be read into the record, because

5 he indicates here that it wasn't possible at all times. It gives it more

6 means, it puts it into context and it's more complete. That's what I was

7 trying to accomplish, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Anyway, you have read this paragraph. It's in the

9 transcript. You may sit down.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Any further questions?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, I have nothing further, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage, are there any documents to tender

16 through this witness?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have P-167 which needs to

18 go under seal. That's that aerial that he had previously marked. We have

19 a video clip, which was 168, which, as you know, is part of a larger

20 exhibit. And we have 169, which is under seal exhibit, just the

21 traditional paper that was shown.

22 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Karnavas?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 Mr. Stojanovic, any objections?

Page 3687

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections on our part, Your

2 Honours.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, very much. These three documents are

4 admitted into the evidence.

5 On the part of Defence, are there any documents to tender into the

6 evidence? Mr. Karnavas.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would tender D-71/1,

8 which would be the statement that the gentleman gave to the police. Of

9 course, we'll ask that it be translated. And also D-72/1, which is the

10 article from which the gentleman read, the article that was in the

11 newspaper, because it gives context to the portion that was read from the

12 statement itself. So D-71/1 and D-72/1.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, as I said, that if they are not translated into

14 a language that we understand, which is the official language, they are

15 not legible for that admission. But let's hear the response from

16 Mr. McCloskey.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, I would like to have an idea

18 of what we're talking about, though perhaps once we get the translation,

19 Mr. Karnavas and I can stipulate to this. These documents don't appear to

20 be very significant, frankly, and we may be able to reach an agreement

21 about that. But I'd like to know what they say, of course.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Let's hold those two documents pending, which means

25 that you can reintroduce these documents into the evidence at any stage

Page 3688

1 later on, so long as --

2 MR. KARNAVAS: The translation --

3 JUDGE LIU: The translation, but more importantly is the

4 contents. We have to understand what's in it.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: We cannot give you a blank cheque.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I have not received one yet, Your Honour, nor am I

8 seeking one, but thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to give your

11 evidence. The usher will show you out of the room.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

13 I am always willing to offer any assistance that is needed.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you for your cooperation.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe the Prosecution has some procedural

17 matters to bring to the attention of this Bench. We'll have a short

18 break, about a 10-minute break, and we'll resume at quarter to 12.00.

19 --- Break taken at 11.34 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.48 a.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I have been asked to help

23 clarify our ongoing witness list so we can all schedule -- try to schedule

24 this, and we will be filing our updated 65 ter list in the next few days,

25 but I can, as I have been able with the Defence, go over some of the

Page 3689

1 names. It might be best to go in private session.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think in the list you provided, there is a

3 number there. Can you only mention those numbers?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That's a --

5 JUDGE LIU: If necessary, we will go to private session, of

6 course, at any time.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not sure if we -- I'm sorry, Judge, the list

8 I'm going on is not -- is an internal list and it's different. Janet can

9 make that change for me but --

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, let's go to private session.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted).

14 (redacted).

15 (redacted).

16 (redacted).

17 (redacted).

18 (redacted).

19 (redacted).

20 (redacted).

21 (redacted).

22 (redacted).

23 (redacted).

24 (redacted).

25 (redacted).

Page 3690












12 Pages 3690 to 3699 redacted, private session














Page 3700

1 (redacted).

2 (redacted).

3 (redacted).

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, it's not exactly clear to me what counsel is

7 saying, but I think there's two issues. One, there is the witness I think

8 we talked about briefly, the fellow that brought his diary in Krstic and

9 then took it back, and that was never an exhibit or anything. Apparently

10 I've been told that there's five pages that are relevant there that have

11 been given to the Defence and I know -- and the whole diary has been given

12 and we're -- sorry, over a year ago that diary was given I'm being told.

13 I didn't realise that. And I think the five pages that he has spoken to

14 us about in proofing that appear to be relevant are being translated as we

15 speak. So they've had that for a year. If that's all she's speaking

16 about, that's all I really have to say, but is there another matter

17 relating to notebooks that you're also talking about?

18 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, Mr. McCloskey -- Your Honours.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, please.

20 MS. SINATRA: I'm not quite sure, since these documents were put

21 on our desk today, that maybe there were English translations provided at

22 another time. It would be very simple for the Prosecutor to have included

23 English translations because these documents were introduced in the Krstic

24 trial, so there's probably an English translation. This was in our box

25 this morning. We didn't get them until we came to trial this morning, and

Page 3701

1 we have not had a chance to review them. But I think it's probably an

2 easier purview for the Prosecutor at this point to provide us with the

3 English translations of these documents which they have readily at their

4 fingertips, versus to us trying to find some CD that they provided a year

5 ago at this point in the case.

6 And we appreciate -- this is true that there is a draft

7 translation being translated into English of the five pages that the

8 Prosecutor believes are relevant to the case, but since they're not our

9 case, I'm not sure that they can tell us what is relevant inside all of

10 these notebooks that will be introduced into evidence tomorrow. I would

11 ask that the Trial Chamber to ask the Prosecutor to please give us the

12 English translations of this since we only have a very short period until

13 the witness takes the stand.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, this morning I think I told

15 Mr. Karnavas that the Prosecution will not be his investigator, but here I

16 would like to say to you, the Prosecution will not be your secretary on

17 that issue. While that may be harsh, but as you requested, I would like

18 to ask the Prosecution to do their best to find the English translations

19 for you for the preparation of tomorrow's hearing. I hope the parties

20 could meet together to find out whether there's an English translation

21 available for those documents and provide those English translations to

22 you. Do you agree with that?

23 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I -- if they have them available,

24 it would be very nice if they could provide them. We appreciate it, but

25 we also would like on the record for the Trial Chamber to be reminded that

Page 3702

1 the Registrar does not pay for our interpreter, so we don't have access to

2 the translation that the Prosecutor does either. But thank you very much

3 for your cooperation in this matter. And I know the OTP will give us the

4 English translations this afternoon.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

6 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will work hard, as you've said, Your Honour.

8 This is a completely different subject than the one regarding the specific

9 witness. So if I could give you just a little explanation on it, then

10 we'll get a better picture of where we are. There are handwritten

11 notebooks and basically they were done from school kid's diaries that

12 intercept operators wrote down intercepts in. There's stacks of them.

13 From those stacks and other intercept information, we were able to find

14 the, I don't know, 1 or 200 intercepts that really had the most relevance

15 that we could find, and those are in the two binders. Now, of course all

16 those intercepts are translated, the ones in the two binders. Now, the

17 notebooks have many more intercepts that talk about you know, people, kids

18 at school, and Belgrade and all kinds of things as well as non-related

19 issues. Those materials have been in the possession of the Defence since

20 29 October 2002, and we have tried to get some draft translations of some

21 of the material so we could decide what to use and it is that material

22 that I can now try to assist Defence counsel with seeing, though -- and

23 we'll try to do that. It's a little late, but better late than never, I

24 guess. We'll try to do that. Just to let you know, that's the situation.

25 We will be asking the notebooks to come in as evidence because of the key

Page 3703

1 intercepts that are in them. But it's for those intercepts that we're

2 asking them to be in evidence for. And all the other stuff, it would

3 drown us to have all the English translations of all the other intercepts.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, of course in this courtroom we'll deal with the

5 relevant materials but not all other materials. And thank you very much

6 for your cooperation, Mr. McCloskey.

7 Yes.

8 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I just wanted to bring to

9 the Trial Chamber's attention that without knowledge of what is in these

10 notebooks which they tend to introduce into evidence tomorrow, without

11 being able to review them tonight, what's relevant to the Prosecutor's

12 case there may be something in there that's exculpatory to the Defence

13 case that we will lose the opportunity to cross-examine about if we don't

14 know the contents of these notebooks in total. I believe that they have

15 all of the transcripts -- these translated at some place in their computer

16 back systems, ILAB or whatever. If they could please provide us with a

17 copy of that today, it would save us a lot of problems dealing with the

18 witness tomorrow who they wish to introduce these notebooks through.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that the Prosecution has promised that

20 after this sitting, the parties will sit together and to identify the

21 issues and give you the opportunity to go through all those notebooks, at

22 least to see those notebooks. And I believe that the lead counsel could

23 speak B/C/S and could identify the relevant issues which might be

24 exculpatory to your case. And the Prosecution is requested to provide a

25 list of the evidence they are going to use in their direct examination

Page 3704

1 tomorrow. This list should be provided to you, I think, this afternoon,

2 so that you will know which materials that they are going to use through

3 the next witness.

4 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That list was provided on Monday, Your

7 Honour, the list of the materials that we would intend for the witnesses

8 as per the rules that have been established.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Well, I think that's all for this morning and we will resume

11 tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom. The hearing is adjourned.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

13 at 12.28 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

14 the 30th day of October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.