1 Thursday, 30 October 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. This morning we only have two
10 sittings, like yesterday. And we'll finish the direct examination of
11 this witness by the Prosecution, whichever is earlier.
12 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me? Your microphone. Yes,
13 would you please make the solemn declaration, please.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: WITNESS P-117
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, you may sit down.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Issa.
21 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Examined by Ms. Issa:
23 Q. Sir, I'm going to start by asking the usher to hand you a piece of
24 paper that has your name on it, I believe. We can do that momentarily.
25 MS. ISSA: I should just indicate, Your Honours, that I will be
1 asking to go into private session on a couple of occasions during the
2 process of the examination-in-chief with this witness.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
4 MS. ISSA:
5 Q. Now, sir, can you, please, look at that piece of paper and tell us
6 whether or not that's your name without saying it out loud.
7 A. This is my name.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 MS. ISSA: That, for the record, is marked as P-3406.
10 Q. Perhaps we can just start with some background information, sir.
11 Are you from Bosnia?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And could you tell us whether you're -- are you Muslim by faith,
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And could you please explain to the Judges your educational
18 A. Your Honours, I finished high school in 1981. Then I completed my
19 training as an electrician in 1985.
20 Q. And I understand, sir, that you have an interest in radios. Is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes. I was intensively involved in hand radio operation ever
23 since I was 17. Also, I constructed radio amateur devices -- radio
24 devices as such.
25 Q. And do you have any types of special classifications or
1 certificates that you received in your pursuit of your interest in radios?
2 A. Yes. In 1977 I received what is called a C classification for
3 radio amateurs. In 1984 I obtained a B category, as it is called. This
4 is a professional category.
5 Q. Okay. Well, starting with the C classification, could you explain
6 to us what that is, please?
7 A. The C category involves receiving telegraph signals, 60 signals
8 per minute, then also being familiar with the so-called prefixes that are
9 country codes, actually. Then also abbreviations that are used for the
10 formation of a telegraph conversation. And also a solid knowledge of
12 Q. All right. And you mentioned that in 1984 you received your B
13 category exam. Can you explain to us what that is.
14 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, I just want to bring to the Court's
17 attention that the Prosecutor is leading for the witness, but for basic
18 information we will allow her to lead the witness until it gets to the
19 substance of the conflicts that we have.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, of course, this is background information.
21 In this situation, leading questions are allowed, otherwise we will spend
22 the whole day here.
23 MS. SINATRA: I agree.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation, Ms. Sinatra.
25 You may proceed.
1 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Can you explain to us what that is, sir, what a B classification
4 A. The B category means receiving telegraph signs, 80 signs per
5 minute, considerably more extensive knowledge of electronics than for the
6 C category. Then also a considerably larger number of abbreviations and
7 codes for telegraph conversations and a considerably larger number of
8 country codes that are called prefixes.
9 Q. All right. And I understand, sir, that in 1982 before you
10 received your B classification, you joined the JNA. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And how long did you remain in active service of the JNA?
13 A. I was in active service for 14 months, and that is where I
14 obtained a military C category for telegraphs and teleprinters.
15 Q. And did you have a particular specialty while you were in the
17 A. Yes. During my training, I used the MKSK, this was a small
18 command communication vehicle. And later on when I went to the command of
19 the boarder outposts, then I used telegraph teleprinter devices, operated
20 them, radio teleprinter devices, the one that is called radio teleprinter
21 100. RTU-100. That is what it was called.
22 Q. Okay. And in the course of your service with the JNA, were there
23 any other devices or types of radio devices that you became familiar with?
24 A. Yes. There were others, many other devices. For example, the
25 RUP-12, the RUP-15 then the RDM-66 I'm sorry 63. Then radio telephones
1 66/17, 66/3, and so on.
2 Q. Okay. Can you very briefly in general terms just explain to us
3 what those devices mean, the names that you have just told us.
4 A. The names themselves refer to the frequency of the device
5 concerned or the year when it was manufactured. For example, the RUP-15
6 is a short wave radio device. It's a transmitter and receiver. The
7 RUP-12 is ultra short wave transmitter of 30 to 60 megahertz [as
8 interpreted]. I forgot to mention that the RUP-15 is from 2 to 15
9 megahertz. Then the radio telephone, the 66/17 type. It has 17 channels.
10 It was manufactured in 1966, 10 watts, and it works at a frequency of
11 150 megahertz, and so on and so forth. I forgot to mention that at the
12 exchange within our unit where I was in this other period during my
13 service in the army, at the telephone exchange, we had devices that are
14 called frequency bearers, 12K type.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did you maintain your interest in radios until
16 the time the conflict started in Bosnia?
17 A. Yes. I intensively worked as a radio amateur, because at first I
18 did not have a job after my army service. And I could devote more time to
19 that part of my hobby. I bought myself a short wave transmitter of my own
20 and then a small pocket-sized ultra short wave one, so that was about it.
21 But these were my private radio stations. I had my private radio amateur
23 Q. All right.
24 MS. ISSA: Perhaps --
25 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry, Ms. Issa, you may proceed.
1 MS. ISSA: That's all right, Your Honour. I was actually going to
2 ask that we go to private session at this point as it may transgress the
3 areas of the protections at this point.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to private session, please.
5 [Private session]
13 Page 3711 – redacted – private session
13 Page 3712 – redacted – private session
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in open session.
9 MS. ISSA: Thank you.
10 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned that the purpose or one of the purposes of
11 your unit was to monitor enemy communications. Can you tell us who you're
12 referring to, who you were monitoring?
13 A. I'm not sure that I have understood the period that your question
14 pertains or to perhaps it is a general question, so that's why I'm going
15 to give the following answer: It was necessary to prevent electronic
16 attacks -- I beg your pardon. It was necessary to prevent electronic
17 operations during an enemy attack. And it was necessary to gain all
18 possible knowledge about enemy movements and material and technical
19 equipment. It was necessary to obtain this kind of information so that
20 the command could, on the basis of other sources as well, intelligence
21 information, check out what the situation was actually like, to see what
22 the situation was within enemy ranks and to have as much information as
24 Q. Okay. Maybe we'll just get back to that. Did you remain, sir, in
25 the field of - perhaps I should put it this way - anti-electronic warfare
1 until the conclusion of the war in Bosnia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you've just described to us what the -- let me ask you this.
4 What is the purpose specifically of intercepting enemy communications?
5 A. Basically the objective is to know as much as possible about the
7 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, sir, did the other parties to the
8 war, the Bosnian Croats, the Bosnian Serbs, the army of the Federal
9 Republic of Yugoslavia also have some type of anti-electronic warfare
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object to including the
12 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: So far there's been no evidence in this case that
15 they were engaged in this war. Milosevic is being tried in another
16 courtroom, not in this one. So I object to that. I don't object to the
17 other with respect to the Bosnian Serbs or the Bosnian Croats.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, this is a very general question,
19 very general question.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour, I understand. I'm a
21 stickler for the details, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
23 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I support Mr. Karnavas's objection, but
24 the fact is that Ms. Issa has not asked who was the enemy. She just made
25 a list in her question proposed to the witness. Now, I think it needs to
1 come to him who he recognised as the enemy in 1992 and 1996.
2 JUDGE LIU: Did we mention the matter of the enemy? I don't think
4 MS. SINATRA: I think -- she asked him earlier who the enemy was
5 and he didn't answer the question and now she's listed people who he
6 considers that they're fighting against. I believe the witness has not
7 answered the question originally posed by Ms. Issa.
8 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Issa just said the other parties to the war, which
9 is very general.
10 MS. SINATRA: I was just asking to have the opinion of the witness
11 as to who the other parties of the war. It's not strictly the two parties
12 involved in this case right now.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, there's some reason in your objection.
14 Well, Ms. Issa, first establish who are the other parties.
15 MS. ISSA: All right, Your Honour. I didn't think that was in
16 dispute particularly, but I can certainly ask the question.
17 Q. Can you tell us, sir, who are the other parties to the war at the
19 A. The other parties have just been mentioned in the previous
20 question, right, and I'm going to give you a concrete answer in order to
21 make things simpler for you, whether the other parties had a unit for
22 electronic warfare. I'm going to be quite clear on this point. The
23 Bosnian Serbs did have this unit. That is exactly the answer I want to
25 Q. Okay. But the question to you, sir, and I'm going to ask you to
1 listen to the questions and answer them specifically and we'll get to
2 other questions later, but the question was: Who are the other parties to
3 the war? And just list them. It has nothing to do with the previous
4 question I asked.
5 A. The other parties specifically to this war were the Bosnian
6 Croats, the Bosnian Serbs, and the Serb forces from Serbia proper.
7 Q. Okay. And did those parties that you listed also have, to your
8 knowledge, an anti-warfare -- anti-electronic warfare unit?
9 A. I have specific and reliable information that the Bosnian Serbs
10 did indeed have such a unit.
11 Q. Okay. And what about the other parties? Do you know?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. Okay. I'd like to ask you, sir, to briefly explain to us or
14 describe how communicates are made and what you look for in terms of
15 intercepting such communications.
16 A. The frequency that we listened to must first be caught or found.
17 In addition to the frequency bearer, you notice the pilot and the
18 characteristic signal which is typical of radio relay equipment.
19 Furthermore, there is the wave bearer, which means that the channels
20 follow a certain order according to their characteristics. What we are
21 talking about is a rather large radio relay equipment with smaller radio
22 relay equipment. You have one channel only and the bearer wave, the
23 so-called bearer wave. What I've been explaining so far really means the
24 following: We adjust our head phones, our headset, and as soon as we
25 notice a signal, we stop right there and we start our recording device,
1 the UHER, the so-called UHER. And that's how you record a conversation or
2 rather tape record a conversation.
3 Q. All right. And just for clarity, a UHER is a type of tape
4 recorder. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes. Yes. It's a tape recorder, a UHER.
6 Q. All right.
7 MS. ISSA: Now, Your Honour, I'm going to be asking that we go
8 into private session for three more questions.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please
10 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed. We are now in open session.
3 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to show you a map marked P-318 and I'll be
5 asking you a few questions in relation to that map. I thank Madam Usher
6 for assisting us in putting that on the ELMO.
7 Now, I'd like you, sir, to take a look at the map that is on the
8 overhead projector which is right next to you and point to where you and
9 your men were located during this period.
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. And where are you pointing to, sir, can you just indicate what
12 that location is, please.
13 A. It's elevation 815 station.
14 Q. And that's at Okresanica. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, we don't need to look at the map at this
17 time, thanks. Were there other units, sir, besides your own which were
18 engaged in monitoring enemy communications at this location?
19 A. You said in this location --
20 Q. Well, maybe --
21 A. Meaning Okresanica.
22 Q. Well, I'll ask you a more general question first. To your
23 knowledge, do you know whether or not there were other enemy -- sorry,
24 other units besides your own which were involved in monitoring enemy
1 A. Yes, in other locations. We had another unit in Konjuh, the same
2 kind of unit. In Okresanica, we had other units that were involved in the
3 same kind of activity. One of them was a lower-ranking unit attached to a
4 division, to the 21st Division, it was a division unit, and there was a
5 unit of the civilian authorities there, too, the state security.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you briefly, sir, explain how many people
7 worked on a shift and how many shifts did you work in in your unit.
8 A. A shift can mean two things. You can have the men or the entire
9 team rotating. We would take shifts every ten days. A working shift
10 would usually last between four and eight hours as necessary.
11 Q. All right. I'm going to now show you, sir, an exhibit marked
12 P-346 which is under -- which I'll be asking to tender under seal, Your
13 Honour, so I won't be asking that it be placed on the ELMO. If it can
14 simply be shown to the witness, please. Thank you.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa, I think that first you showed us a
16 piece of paper with the witness's name on it. What's the number for that?
17 Would you please make a clarification.
18 MS. ISSA: Yes. I thank, Your Honour. I may have made a mistake.
19 I apologise, Your Honour. The exhibit that I'm showing to the witness
20 right now is P-346 and the one that has the witness's name on it is
21 Exhibit P-349.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
23 MS. ISSA: Thank you.
24 Q. Now, sir, that exhibit will remain under seal. I understand that
25 at some point you compiled a list in which you identified the names of
1 individuals who served in your group intercepting radio communications.
2 Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are those people listed in that list members of your unit?
5 A. Yes. These are precisely the persons who were members of my unit.
6 Q. Thank you very much. I don't really have any further need for
7 that exhibit. Thank you, Madam Usher.
8 Now, sir, can you tell us how long your platoon had been stationed
9 at Okresanica intercepting communications before July 1995?
10 A. Our platoon was there from the 10th or 11th of November 1993. I
11 know that we arrived back in 1992, or rather, excuse me, the 10th of
12 October was when we arrived at the feature and then the 11th was the
13 recorded date. That's why I'm saying the 10th or the 11th, 1993.
14 Q. All right. Thank you. And from the position of Okresanica, sir,
15 whose communications were you monitoring? And perhaps if it assists you,
16 we can refer back to the map, but if you don't need it, perhaps you can
17 just answer the question. Which area?
18 A. We had so-called zones of responsibility for monitoring for
19 surveillance. Those included the zone of the Drina Corps, the Ozren, the
20 Majevica, and for a while we had -- I'm not sure if it was considered
21 Central Bosnia. It was the area around Tesanj, Maglaj, that area.
22 Q. All right. And specifically, sir, who were you monitoring during
23 that period of time, the communications of which army?
24 A. We were monitoring the communications of the Army of Republika
1 Q. Now, in the course of intercepting conversations of the enemy,
2 sir, are you familiar with deciphering codes or coded language?
3 A. First of all, we would encounter code names of those
4 participating. Some persons could introduce themselves in code and there
5 were whole texts or, rather, bits of communications that were coded.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
7 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I believe that the witness has to
8 be certified as some kind of expert in decoding before he can go into the
9 testimony of recognising codes. And the question of Ms. Issa was: Are
10 you an expert in decoding and he didn't answer the question first as a
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think for the past 45 minutes, Ms. Issa asked
13 the background of this witness, and this witness told us his job, his
14 work, his profession. I think that's sufficient enough for him to answer
15 this question.
16 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, if I may, I believe that there's a big
17 difference in radio and communication expertise and encryption and
18 decoding and deciphering codes as an expertise. I would just like to ask
19 Ms. Issa lay the foundation properly if he's going to represent himself as
20 someone who understands how to decode information.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, certainly I'm not an expert in this area. But
22 in my view, the foundation is enough.
23 Ms. Issa, are there any more foundations you would like to lay in
24 this respect?
25 MS. ISSA: Well, no. Your Honour, I believe the witness has
1 indicated that he is familiar with coded names. I may just ask a few more
2 questions to have him elaborate on his previous answer. In my submission,
3 I believe that the foundation has been properly laid.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra. We'll listen to whatever the
5 witness is going to tell us, then we'll see whether he's an expert or not.
6 Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt you. You may proceed.
7 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour. I just want to say before I
8 proceed, I'm not putting the witness forward as an expert necessarily. I
9 think Your Honour understands that. I just think that the word expert was
10 used by my friend and I haven't used it. I just want to clarify that
12 JUDGE LIU: The expert has special meanings and a different person
13 has different interpretations of that word. Let's not debate on the
14 meaning of that word.
15 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour.
16 Q. Now, sir, are you specifically familiar with the coded names of
17 the Army of the Republika Srpska?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how did you become familiar with these names?
20 A. Through telephone conversations that they had among themselves.
21 Instead of referring to a specific location, they would provide code names
22 so that we wouldn't know where they were calling from.
23 Q. All right. Now, sir, I'm going to be asking the usher to place
24 Exhibit P-321 on the overhead projector. And I'll be asking you some
25 questions in relation to this particular map.
1 Now, sir, you've seen this map before in my office. Is that
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Using your pointer, sir, can you please tell the Judges what this
5 particular exhibit represents.
6 A. This map represents the radio relay communications of the Army of
7 Republika Srpska.
8 Q. Okay. I'm just going to ask you to point at that at this point,
9 sir, because we weren't able to see it earlier. Where were you pointing?
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. And that's the radio relay centre?
12 A. This is the radio relay centre, yes, of the Main Staff of the Army
13 of Republika Srpska.
14 Q. And it appears to be that it's marked with the word "panorama."
15 Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, the word "panorama."
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't mean to interrupt
19 the flow of the direct. However, we're going into the details of the map
20 without any foundation as to who marked this map. I think once we get
21 that, then we can go into the specifics so we have a clear record, Your
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa. These are the questions also in our
24 mind. You have to lay some foundations first, then you can use this map.
25 MS. ISSA: All right, Your Honour.
1 Q. Sir, do you know how this map was marked or how it came about?
2 A. I do. The marks were inserted, or rather, we inserted the marks
3 here. We assigned the marks and they were inserted by the organ of the
4 anti-warfare -- electronic anti-warfare unit that I belonged to. It was
5 our own operations centre. We had our own operations centre that was part
6 of the command, but the operations centre not of the corps, the operations
7 centre of my unit, of my company, of the anti-electronic warfare unit.
8 Q. All right. Thank you. Perhaps we can now go through the map.
9 I notice there, sir, where you pointed to the radio relay centre
10 the word --
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
12 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt. Also, he just
13 said "we." That is an indefinite term. Can he specify as to whether the
14 commander marked it, whether operators marked it. We still don't know who
15 drew the lines, the vectors, the frequencies. And I think an improper
16 foundation has been laid.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that's a relevant objection.
18 Ms. Issa.
19 MS. ISSA: Okay.
20 Q. All right. You mentioned earlier, sir, that "We prepared the
21 map." Who were you referring to when you said "we"?
22 A. I was referring to the unit that I commanded. Also there were
23 certain elements that would be added or attached from another unit of the
24 same kind that was in a different location.
25 Q. All right. Did you participate, sir, in getting that information
1 on the map?
2 A. I participated directly in obtaining this information, but not in
3 inserting this information.
4 Q. And you recognise the map as the information that you have
6 A. Yes. All these are code names that we encountered in our
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I believe that the witness
10 just referred to another group that really put input into this map. I
11 think he's referring to not only his unit but the map was also marked and
12 created by the MUP or the secret service that was located in his building.
13 I don't believe that this witness, other than understanding the
14 information in the map, had anything to do with the creation, and he has
15 not specified who made the markings on this map.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well --
17 MS. SINATRA: Or when.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the witness answered that
19 question very clearly. I think in your objections you provide additional
20 information which may be a subject in your cross-examination at a later
21 stage. Please let us move on.
22 Yes, Ms. Issa, you may proceed.
23 MS. ISSA: Thank you.
24 Q. Now, sir, we were dealing with the radio relay centre and you
25 pointed to the term "panorama" as the location of the radio relay centre
1 earlier. Can you tell us, sir, what that term "panorama" refers to?
2 A. The word "panorama" is a code name for the Main Staff of the Army
3 of Republika Srpska.
4 Q. And was it close to any particular town?
5 A. Yes. It was very close to Han Pijesak.
6 Q. And can you point to Han Pijesak for us on the map, please.
7 A. [Indicates]
8 Q. And where was the command centre for the Bosnian Serb army
9 located, sir? Can you just say it?
10 A. In Han Pijesak, in Han Pijesak, that's where the Main Staff was,
11 but the radio relay centre was at a nearby elevation, which was the usual
12 way to go about it. That's what we all did.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you explain to us, sir, the various
14 features of the map, the links?
15 A. The radio relay centre had a number of -- this is a radio relay
16 centre of an entire army, in this case the Army of Republika Srpska. They
17 had radio relay communications with lower-ranking participants, of course
18 the brigades, even lower-ranking units than that. The reason was that
19 they were on the lookout for the best possible conditions to establish
20 links. That's why it comes in this order. We can see other participants,
21 too. The first grade below are the corps and here we see one of the
22 participants, the Drina Corps, for example, the code name is ...
23 Q. Okay. And sorry, could you just point that back to that point
24 where you were pointing to the Drina Corps.
25 A. This place, the code name was "Zlatar" and it was located in
2 Q. Are there any brigades or any subordinate units that had
3 established links with the command centre? Could you point those out, for
4 us please.
5 A. Those were the brigades. For example, the Milici Brigade, the
6 code name "Gric Vrelo." There was the Bratunac Brigade, code name
7 "Badem." And several others, too. These were the important ones.
8 Q. Do you see the Zvornik Brigade on there?
9 A. I can't locate it at the moment, but it should be here.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. The angle from which I'm looking at the map at the moment is very
13 Q. Okay. Well, if it's more convenient for you, sir, if you want you
14 can just take the map off the ELMO and take a look at it. Have you found
15 it now, sir. Just put the map back on the ELMO.
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Okay. Can you just point that out for us, please. And what's the
18 code name for the Zvornik Brigade?
19 A. The Zvornik Brigade and the code name is "Palma."
20 Q. Thank you. I think I'm finished with that map. Thank you very
21 much. Now, I'm just going to show you, sir, Exhibit P-312 and ask you to
22 identify it. We can actually put that exhibit on the ELMO, please.
23 Now, sir, did you have an opportunity to see this exhibit in my
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you describe what the exhibit is, please.
2 A. This is a list of code names identifying the participants.
3 Q. Does it accurately identify the code name with the corresponding
5 A. Yes. It shows you the code names and their real names, the names
6 of the units using the respective code names.
7 Q. All right. Thank you. I think I'm finished with that exhibit,
8 Madam Usher. Can you describe for us, sir, how you -- precisely how you
9 and your unit captured radio communications. If you can describe the
11 A. To keep things clear, first there would be an order that was
12 issued to us at the feature. First we would redirect our aerials or
13 antenna in the given direction. We would look for participants. We would
14 use our information to obtain the frequencies that we had had before to
15 see whether those were active at the moment, whether they had any new
16 frequencies, whether there were new participants using the frequencies,
17 and so on and so forth. So first you place the frequencies, and then you
18 go on for a more detailed kind of activity that was usually done at night.
19 There would be a large amount of interference, noise in the communication
20 lines during the day, and the night was much better for that. There were
21 sometimes very small signals that were disguised or masked, and the
22 signals that we monitored were far more powerful than those signals, but
23 sometimes we could even pick up the very small ones and use them to obtain
24 information. Once you've located the participants, the procedure itself
25 was very simple. Sometimes we would pick up certain frequencies that we
1 had given to the command and hen they would send them back to us. So that
2 was the beginning of the whole process.
3 Once that was done, we would start using our earphones and start
4 our shift. We were simply waiting for someone to start talking and then
5 we would tape record those conversations in the way I've described before.
6 Q. All right. And once you tape recorded a conversation, sir, what
7 would you then do with that conversation?
8 A. Once a conversation was tape recorded, in as for as possible, it
9 needed to be transcribed. What that means is you used a sound recording
10 and you made some sort of transcript out of it. That's what we did. If
11 you want to know more, once we had the information filed, we would send
12 it, send it in the form of a written report to the command on a daily
13 basis. That's within the 24 hours of a single day, but sometimes you
14 would have more reports in a single day, depending on the quantity of
15 information coming in.
16 Q. Okay. Well, let's just take it step by step and start with the
17 transcription process. Can you describe how you would go about
18 transcribing a conversation.
19 A. It's a very arduous process. We were well trained and we had
20 well-trained ears, our ears were trained to recognise a myriad of
21 different sounds and to distinguish them. Sometimes this would take a
22 whole lot of time, despite all our training. Sometimes there would be a
23 single word we weren't sure about it, so we would just play and replay it
24 10, 12, 15 times. It was a bit like a deejay's job. The person operating
25 the tape recorder would play it back. We would clean the tape recorder to
1 get the sound as clear as possible. We needed technicians for that
2 position. We would run and rerun the same word, the same sound, in order
3 to be able to identify it with 100 per cent certainty. It sometimes
4 happened that we couldn't get a word-for-word transcript of a certain
5 conversation. So sometimes you had to play the tape back and play several
6 times certain sections of the text itself, of the conversation. Then
7 sometimes the people in the room next door would hear that we were having
8 trouble with one particular portion of the conversation, so then those
9 people would come over to our room and help us try to get this single word
11 Q. Okay. And why was it so important, sir, to ensure the accuracy of
12 the conversation?
13 A. It was in the nature of our job that we could not know the meaning
14 of certain words or of a single word being used and we couldn't tell how
15 important a certain word could be, therefore, you had to go into as much
16 detail as possible to submit this information to our command in order to
17 avoid misrepresenting the enemy forces to our command. We were afraid of
18 making any large mistakes. That was the first thing. And secondly, the
19 nature of our activity required us to do our job as thoroughly as
20 possible. Also, there were cases where someone else was monitoring, too.
21 As soon as we had any indication of that, we would sometimes expect this
22 other party to provide more accurate information. So that's how we tried
23 to do our job as thoroughly as possible.
24 Q. Okay. And when you say, "Someone else monitoring, too," are you
25 referring to someone else in a different unit?
1 A. All the units that could be involved in this same kind of activity
2 were in a position to monitor the same frequency that we were. Maybe for
3 a different reason or maybe they were monitoring other channels, but they
4 were obtaining the same text, the same text conversation that we were
6 Q. All right. And just to clarify, sir, did that always happen?
7 A. Well, of course not. But how could we know when it would?
8 Q. Okay. Now, you told us earlier, sir, that your unit had been at
9 the mountain top at Okresanica listening to the Bosnian Serb military
10 communications for approximately two years. Can you tell us, sir, based
11 on your experience, whether you were able to identify the voices you
12 listened to, specific speakers in the radio communications that you
14 A. The more times we heard a particular participant, the more
15 accurate we could be in terms of determining whether that was the person
16 involved in the conversation. But after several times, it wouldn't be
17 difficult at all.
18 Q. All right. And can you tell us, sir, whether there was any other
19 way for you, besides the ability to recognise the speakers, to identify
20 the men who were communicating or the people who were communicating?
21 A. Well, of course. There were the names of localities or the code
22 names that they had given, and then they introduced themselves by these
23 names. And in the previous texts, we had their names and these same
25 Q. Okay. And just again, sir, to clarify, you say that there were
1 the names of the localities and the code names. Were there any other
2 names that were given besides the names of the localities and the code
3 names, that you recollect or that you know?
4 A. We've already discussed this. I said once that the speakers
5 introduced themselves by some code names.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. You mentioned, sir, that the intercepted
7 communication was transcribed verbatim somewhere. Can you tell us where
8 the intercepted communications were written down.
9 A. The intercepted communications were transcribed in the unit where
10 we did this. When I say "we," it pertains to the list of these persons
11 that I showed you. So it was not only I, but we all did this. It was a
12 matter of routine procedure. So once this material was transcribed, or
13 rather, once the sound was transmitted into written recordings, then it
14 was entered in a computer. And then in the form of a daily report, it
15 went to the command of our company which was within the corps
16 headquarters. Then the notebooks, the materials that were used up were
17 then put away in my safe -- I'm sorry about the microphone.
18 Q. Okay. But before --
19 A. I'm sorry. I haven't finished yet. Waiting for the shift, these
20 materials went to our headquarters and then when tapes were fully
21 recorded, then we would get new ones and that was it.
22 Q. Okay. Just before we stop for the morning recess, sir, I just
23 want to ask you specifically where you wrote down the conversations before
24 we get to sending them on the computer printout to the command. What did
25 you write them in?
1 A. We wrote this down in the notebooks that you have. 30-odd
2 notebooks of this type.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you.
4 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, it may be an appropriate time to take the
5 morning recess.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll break until quarter to 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please Sinatra.
10 MS. SINATRA: Please accept our apologies for being a few minutes
11 late. We were in the hall and didn't realise the time. No excuse. Thank
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
14 Ms. Issa, you may proceed.
15 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Before the break, sir, we left off where you were telling us that
17 you and members of your unit transcribed the conversations verbatim into
18 notebooks. Now, after communications were written down in notebooks, can
19 you describe what the next step is in the procedure.
20 A. The next step in the procedure was that these materials that
21 you've just referred to would be transferred from the notebook into the
22 computer. This was done by the operator at the KZU. These same
23 conversations were then transmitted via computer to the command, to
25 Q. Okay. And you just mentioned, sir, an operator at the KZU. Can
1 you tell us what the KZU is?
2 A. That is the person who encrypted texts in a certain way, sent
3 these texts as protected, encrypted texts to the headquarters of our unit.
4 Q. Okay. And when the calls were initially transcribed into the
5 notebooks, when they were handwritten down, can you tell us when that took
6 place in relation to when the call was heard or intercepted?
7 A. If I understood the question correctly, if we are talking about
8 the time of the conversation, the time of the conversation would be
9 registered and the counter would always placed at 0 before the next
10 conversation would be taped or a few conversations that followed one after
11 the other, then they would be registered as such. So it was the time, the
12 frequency, the channel, if the device has that as well, as also the
13 participants in the conversation.
14 Q. Okay. Well, since we're talking about those factors, where would
15 they be registered, the time, the participants, the frequency, and
17 A. If there was one conversation and if it could be heard clearly who
18 the participants were, then the time, channel, frequency, and participant
19 would be registered. If that was not clear, then it would be put on a
20 piece of paper. And then when the text would be written down, then the
21 participants would be transmitted into the notebook when the next was
22 copied into the notebook.
23 Q. Okay. And if it was clear, initially where would it be
25 A. First of all, they would be written down on a piece of paper --
1 oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I see what you mean. If it was clear, then it
2 would be written down in the notebook first of all. So if it was an easy
3 conversation, so to speak, then it would be written down, the text that
4 is. And then if it could not be fully written down, then the previous
5 part would be checked and then they would be written down later. So there
6 were some conversations that were actually recorded, written down, while
7 they were taking place.
8 Q. Okay. And if they were recorded later, when would they be
10 A. If they were recorded later, then they would be recorded, written
11 down, on a piece of paper. So all conversations, one after the other,
12 would be written down as such in the notebook, in the same order, that is.
13 The first conversation, let me note this in particular, in such a case
14 would be with the counter placed at zero. I mean, it is the counter of
15 the device that I mentioned, that is the UHER, the tape recorder. Its
16 counter would be placed at zero first.
17 Q. Okay. And you're now referring to the time of the conversation
18 when you're talking about the counter. Is that correct?
19 A. When talking about the counter, that means the number that a
20 particular conversation took on a particular tape.
21 Q. Okay. If I can then just clarify or repeat what I understand you
22 to have said. You told us that the time, the frequency, and the channel,
23 and the participants would sometimes be written on a piece of paper. Is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct. But in response to your previous question,
1 you mentioned the time. We had the time directly displayed on the small
2 device that is called the carrier of frequency, the so-called terrace of
3 the radio relay.
4 Q. All right. Well, we'll -- we will get to that. When you recorded
5 the actual text of the conversations, you told us earlier, sir, that you
6 recorded them in notebooks. Can you tell us when you would write those --
7 the text of the conversation in the notebooks?
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
9 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, just for clarity in the record, if we
10 could refer to the actual recording of conversations as recording and the
11 actual writing down of conversations as transcription, otherwise the
12 record is very confusing.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, I believe that Ms. Issa is asking a
14 very general question and laying if foundations of the situation. And
15 later on she will lead us to that particular conversation or any
16 particular notes in that notebook.
17 MS. SINATRA: I'm just talking about general terms, because
18 transcription is the writing down. Recording is the reel-to-reel audio
19 recording of something. She said "You recorded it on pieces of paper." I
20 think just for clarity in the record, we should use "recording" for the
21 audio recording and "transcription" for the written recordings of the
22 conversations. It would make the record clear for everybody, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: To me there is no problem, but if you wish, maybe
24 Ms. Issa, you could try to distinguish the two different ways.
25 MS. ISSA: I'll attempt to do that, Your Honour. But at this
1 point we're simply speaking about notebooks, so I do think it's clear.
2 But I'll certainly endeavour to do that.
3 Q. Now, sir, when you or members of your unit would hear a call and
4 then subsequently transcribe it in the notebook, can you tell us when you
5 would transcribe it in the notebook in relation to the -- when the
6 conversation was first heard.
7 A. I can. The conversations -- well, it depended on the quantity
8 involved. They could be transmitted in their regular version, as it was
9 called, by the end of the day. So that had to be typed out by 9.00 p.m.
10 or 10.00 p.m. or by 2400 hours. When we had a lot of such material, then
11 we would deviate from this basic version; namely, that we would send this
12 report as we sent regular reports by the end of the day. It could be sent
13 even later, even throughout the night, if necessary. But in principle, if
14 there was a lot of material, then it would be typed out immediately. This
15 went on incessantly. It was typed out as soon as it arrived from the room
16 where we were doing the transcribing of these texts and then it to the
17 computer for encryption and in that case it would go straight away as a
18 report, as a special report to the command.
19 Q. Okay. And why was it necessary, sir, to type out the
20 conversations the same day that they came in and send them to the command?
21 A. First of all, this pertains to the period during which there were
22 some operations going on, when something was going on. And if necessary,
23 even the command headquarters would require something from us. We would
24 not know why at the time, but we would act accordingly and there were such
1 Q. Okay. I'm now, sir, going to show you a particular notebook
2 marked as Exhibit P-322 and ask you if you can identify it for us.
3 MS. ISSA: And for the record, Your Honour, I'm going to be
4 showing the witness the original notebook that ultimately we will be
5 tendering copies of the notebooks. And I believe that the notebook --
6 Your Honours do have copies of the notebooks at this point and I'll be
7 referring to particular pages within the notebook.
8 JUDGE LIU: Are we furnished with the English translation?
9 MS. ISSA: I believe so, Your Honour. It's in the binder that
10 was -- that I believe you were furnished with, the two intercept binders.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
12 MS. ISSA: And I believe it's in volume 1, but I will check that
13 for Your Honour.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a notebook that was put
15 together by my unit. It bears my signature and there's a certain amount
16 of handwriting there.
17 Q. All right. And, sir, when you were in my office you've seen this
18 notebook when we met the other day. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And as a matter of fact, you reviewed several other notebooks in
21 my office that also came from your unit. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Does this notebook -- you indicated that it contains the
24 conversations that were recorded by members of your staff. Were these
25 conversations -- the written records of the intercepted conversations
1 contained in this notebook, were they made at the time you intercepted the
2 communication? Just generally speaking.
3 A. Well, straight away or at the time, that's a very relative
4 concept. In as far as that was possible. It could have been right then
5 and there and sometimes after the end of the actual conversation.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. And were the notebooks that you referred to
7 earlier, the 30-odd notebooks, were they kept by the army as part of their
8 regular business? I'm just asking you a general question. It's not
9 referring to this particular notebook right now, sir.
10 A. Yes. It was the army's document. They recorded these in the
11 warehouse of our unit as a document that had also been registered else
12 where. It had a list of contents. It had its own number and the date,
13 the date when the notebook was supposed to be sent to the location. It
14 was specified -- a document was specified to be sent to a location.
15 Q. And was that the case with the other notebooks as well, sir, that
16 came from your unit in general terms?
17 A. In general terms, yes. However, there was a possibility, for
18 example, that one of the notebooks didn't have a mark like this, but most
19 of the notebooks needed to have these markings, if not all.
20 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to ask you, sir, to turn to a specific page
21 in the notebook that you have in front of you. And perhaps Madam Usher
22 can assist you with that and I'm looking at page 00778904.
23 A. I found it.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, the handwriting on that page, sir, is that
25 your handwriting?
1 A. Yes. This is certainly my handwriting.
2 Q. All right. Is that a conversation that you personally
4 A. Yes, which means that I was the one that transcribed it, too.
5 Q. All right. And did you faithfully transcribe this conversation
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. ISSA: Perhaps at this point, Your Honours, I'm going to read
9 into the regard the conversation. I'll be asking some more questions
10 about it after I do that. And I will simply ask that the English
11 translation, which I believe is at Exhibit 231/E be placed on the ELMO.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Just a point of clarification, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. McCloskey was quite adamant and agitated at me
15 reading documents into the record. We now have his junior colleague
16 coming in here and doing it. I would like to know what is the procedure.
17 The gentleman can read it if he wishes. If we wants to point to a
18 particular area, that's fine. We can all read. I just want some
19 clarification because if I start reading documents and I get a Prosecutor
20 agitated and jumping up and down and screaming at me, I would like to know
21 what the procedure is. That's all
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, did I ever stop you?
23 MR. KARNAVAS: No, you did not. Your Honour.
24 JUDGE LIU: It depends on the situations.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: I just wanted to know the rules of the road. If
1 we're going to allow this procedure now, I don't have a problem with it.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the reading of a document is allowed in
3 the proceedings. This is first.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: But the parties should try their best to avoid this
6 practice, because that consumes a lot of time. If we could find some
7 other way out, that's perfect.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. Thank you.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, if I might just indicate that the
11 intercepts are a little different from what I think Mr. Karnavas might be
12 referring to. I think it's a different context and I don't have too much
13 to read into the record. But if I may be just permitted to proceed in
14 this fashion for the time being.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
16 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. It would be of great assistance
17 to the Defence for Mr. Jokic at the moment, because we only have a B/C/S
18 version of it. We would really advocate Ms. Issa reading it so we can
19 have an English translation of it.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you.
21 Well, Ms. Issa, you may do that.
22 MS. ISSA: I think, just to assist Ms. Sinatra, it's probably
23 contained in the binder that she has there in front of her and I think she
24 may have found it, the English translation, that is.
25 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, Your Honour. It is listed as another P
1 number that was not present at the time. So we do have both documents
3 JUDGE LIU: Anyway, Ms. Issa will read it.
4 MS. ISSA: For ease of reference, Your Honour, it's in binder
5 number 1, under the July 14th date.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We found it. You may proceed.
7 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. It starts off with, "7847, channel 5 at 2056 hours. Major General
9 Jovanovic and X."
10 X: Just a moment, to Colonel Vukovic.
11 M: Good evening.
12 X: Evening.
13 M: How is it going?
14 X: We are fine, how about you?
15 M: How can I find out where General Zivanovic is? I've been
16 waiting here for him on his orders since 1700 hours.
17 X: He's here.
18 M: What?
19 X: He's here.
20 M: There.
21 X: Yes.
22 M: Put me through to him.
23 X: I'll try now.
24 Z: Yes?
25 M: Good evening.
1 Z: Good evening, Vuko.
2 M: Things are good here. I did everything in the spirit of what
3 I received last night. And this morning he called me Natasku
4 and I came here this morning at around 10.00 and I --
5 Z: Major.
6 M: Yes, yes, I understand you.
7 Z: I just came from the checkpoint ...
8 M: Could you repeat that, please.
9 Z: I asked that paper which was sent - there is one - from
10 Blagojevic, about me.
11 M: Okay.
12 Z: Read my conclusions.
13 M: I understand.
14 Z: Because -- (from here on drowned out by previously recorded
16 M: I understand, completely, and then we'll focus on the one down
18 M: I understand. I'm going to my post up there.
19 Z: Listen. Where up there are your boys?
20 M: Well, my boys are now in the western part, working there as of
21 today. Everything's in place, sweet as a nut.
22 Z: Excellent.
23 M: I did that today.
24 Z: (Mumbles something)
25 M: I understand.
1 Z: Take care.
2 M: Take care.
3 Now, sir, did you -- was this document -- was this conversation
4 typed out --
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
6 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, so I don't need to interrupt the
7 proceedings any further. I just still maintain the running objections to
8 the admissibility of any intercepts until this procedure is over with with
9 the witnesses. Although she did read it into record, it has not been
10 determined that it is admissible or not.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think we will deal with the admissibility at a
12 later stage and we well understand your running objections on this issue.
13 MS. ISSA:
14 Q. Now, sir, after you transcribed this conversation was it typed out
15 and sent to the command in the manner that you described to us earlier?
16 A. This text was written down immediately and sent to the command
17 immediately. That's my answer.
18 Q. Okay. And I'm going to, sir, refer you now to Prosecution Exhibit
19 231/E and ask you to identify that document.
20 MS. ISSA: And while Madam Usher is getting the document, Your
21 Honour, I believe the particular conversation I referred to is at P-231
22 and I misspoke earlier when I referred to as 231/E.
23 Q. Now, can you identify, sir -- perhaps we can put that on the ELMO.
24 Can you identify for us, sir, what this document is.
25 A. This document is this same text that was typed up. I found one
1 small detail here. It's about the dialect being used, the Ekavica
2 dialect. In the original when the conversation was intercepted, they were
3 speaking in the Ekavica dialect. And the way it was typed up was
4 different. That's the only difference.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, can you -- looking at the typed-out
6 version that I just handed to you, can you tell us what the date of the
7 conversation was? I'm referring to the document that's on the overhead
8 projector, sir. What is the date that the conversation took place?
9 A. Yes, I understand. It's the 14th of July, 1995.
10 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned that there was this slight difference in
11 the conversation between the notebook and the computer printout. It's a
12 different spelling, I believe, is that what you were telling us of one
13 word? You have to answer into the microphone.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And just for the record, sir, what was the word?
16 A. Excuse me, can you just give me a little bit of time to compare
17 these so then I can tell you.
18 Q. Certainly.
19 A. Right here in the text, the typed-up version reads the major as
20 saying: "Yes, yes, I understand you."
21 Q. Okay. And what does the handwritten version read?
22 A. "Yes, yes, I understand you."
23 Q. It's just simply a different dialect. That's what you're telling
24 us; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, precisely.
1 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, sir, you indicated that you wrote the
2 conversation down in the notebook. Did you also type it up or did
3 somebody else do that?
4 A. I wasn't the one who typed them up. I did transcribe this
5 conversation first. I listened to it and then I transcribed it. The
6 conversation was typed up by the encryption operator. In the unit itself
7 at the location itself.
8 Q. Okay. Now, the date of 14 July that is on that computer printout,
9 1995, can you explain how that date is generated.
10 A. This date was automatically inserted by the computer. It was
11 always computerised for daily reports and for reports like this one. For
12 all reports, the date was inserted by the computer. And that was why we
13 didn't leave the date in our notebooks.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Turning then to the next conversation in a
15 notebook marked as Exhibit 323.
16 MS. ISSA: And I believe, Your Honours, this is also in the same
17 location in the intercept binders that you were provided with earlier.
18 JUDGE LIU: And what's the date?
19 MS. ISSA: The date is 14 July, 1995, Your Honour, and the
20 particular conversation I will be referring to momentarily is at P-232.
21 Q. Now, sir, you recognise that notebook. It's also a notebook that
22 you've seen earlier in my office. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes. This is a notebook that was drafted in my unit in the very
24 period of time that it refers to. The handwriting on the cover is my own
25 handwriting. The handwriting on page 1 is my own handwriting. There is a
1 file number given by my unit and my signature, my signature testifying to
2 the fact that the notebook was sent on and that it contains a list.
3 Q. Okay. And that's found at the very back of the notebook. Is that
4 correct, your signature?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like you, sir, to turn to page 00779705 of the
8 MS. ISSA: And I'm referring again, Your Honours, to P-232 in the
10 JUDGE LIU: It should be slash B.
11 MS. ISSA: Perhaps it is, Your Honour. I appreciate the
13 Q. And again, I would ask that the -- a copy of the English
14 translation, which is at 232/A be placed on the ELMO. Now, sir, turning
15 to that page, is that -- you indicated that's your handwriting on that
17 A. Yes, this is my handwriting.
18 Q. Is that a conversation that you personally intercepted?
19 A. Yes. I personally recorded and transcribed this conversation.
20 Q. And did you faithfully record the conversation verbatim into the
22 A. Yes. Word for word. In as for as I could hear and actually
23 understand what was being said.
24 Q. Okay.
25 MS. ISSA: Perhaps, Your Honour, I can now read out what is on the
1 ELMO, the English translation of that.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would object because it is time
3 consuming, we can all read. If they want -- if she wishes to direct the
4 gentleman to a particular portion of the intercept, I certainly have no
5 objections. It is going to be introduced, I assume, or tendered, so --
6 but I don't see why Ms. Issa is going to be reading an entire document on
7 direct unless she can establish the basis for it.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think everybody has got that document at our
9 hands. If you have some particular paragraph you want to mention, you
10 could read that particular paragraph, but there's no need to read the
11 whole document.
12 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. I won't do that, but I indicated
13 earlier it was only two documents or two conversations I was going
14 through. But if Your Honour doesn't wish me to do that, then I will ask
15 for specific questions in relation to the conversations.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please ask some specific questions.
17 MS. ISSA:
18 Q. Now, sir, you've read this conversation to refresh your memory
19 when you were in my office. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. And perhaps if I can just refer you to the time the conversation
22 took place, sir, what time was that? If you can just refer either to the
23 notebook or to the ...
24 A. The conversation I'm looking at took place at 2102.
25 Q. Okay. And there's a notation here, sir, that says: "Palma duty
1 officer." If we can then deal with that term. Can you tell us what Palma
2 is associated with.
3 A. Palma is one of the codes from the Drina Corps.
4 Q. All right. Well, perhaps --
5 A. It's -- it refers to the Zvornik Brigade.
6 Q. Okay. And what about Badem. Do you recollect that?
7 A. Badem, I'm not sure if it's Bratunac or not.
8 Q. Okay. Well --
9 A. The Bratunac Brigade, I apologise.
10 Q. Okay. Now, just in looking at the conversation, sir, I note here
11 that there are some dots after particular -- or before a particular
12 statement made by one of the parties. Can you tell us what the dots
13 represent in the notebook.
14 A. These dots are parts of the conversation that we couldn't make
15 out. Meanwhile, there was a break.
16 Q. Okay. Is there anything particular about this conversation that
17 you recollect that was perhaps slightly unusual?
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, first, I don't mean to object, but
19 there's a foundational question, does he recollect this conversation,
20 first of all. Then if he does recollect the conversation, then he can
21 continue. The other thing is, I would like to know is this based on his
22 independent memory or is it based on his memory being refreshed from this
23 document? If he doesn't recollect it, then I guess there's no sense in
24 going on to the next step and that is for him to describe what indeed it
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we have been on this document for
2 quite some minutes already. I think there is no problem that the witness
3 recollects that was the note he took. And as for the second objection --
4 well, Ms. Issa, you may ask some questions in this aspect.
5 MS. ISSA: Okay.
6 JUDGE LIU: Just to make things clear.
7 MS. ISSA: Okay. I will do that, Your Honour. Perhaps if I can
8 keep going in this line of questioning and I'll get to that, Your Honour.
9 Q. Now, sir, is there anything unusual about the conversation that
10 you recollect, this particular conversation?
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, Your Honour, he hasn't established that he
12 recollects having this conversation. I'm not suggesting that he didn't
13 write it down. This is his handwriting and he stated that it was his
14 handwriting, but he hasn't indicating recollecting this particular
15 conversation. You know, we're talking years later, many different
16 conversations. Now, if he can point to something having read it that he
17 recollects something in particular, I have no objection. But here she's
18 assuming a fact that's not in evidence as if he recollects something.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, is that an important issue? I don't see where
20 you're going, Mr. Karnavas. So long as we have the notebook here and the
21 witness recognises it's his handwriting, I don't think there's any
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I think there is a problem if there's a
24 suggestion that he recollects this particular conversation. Obviously
25 he's recorded it. It may be the case that he recognises his handwriting
1 but he doesn't recollect that particular conversation because it never
2 registered in his mind. There was nothing significant about it. This
3 particular conversation may have some significance to him. And if that's
4 the case, I would like to know how it is that he would recognise this
5 particular conversation. So it's a foundational question. I believe the
6 question is being asked and the way it's framed, it suggests that he does
7 indeed recollect something. He hasn't said that he recollects the
8 conversation or anything in particular.
9 JUDGE LIU: As I said, we have been working on this document for
10 quite a few minutes already. So I don't think your objections here are
11 relevant because the witness has already been reminded at least of this
12 conversation by the notebook.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. Very well. I accept the
14 Court's ruling. I'll go that far. I accept the Court's ruling and I will
15 abide by it.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
17 Ms. Sinatra.
18 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry, but we do support
19 Mr. Karnavas's objection. The record only reflects that he has refreshed
20 his memory in the Prosecutor's office before testifying. It doesn't
21 reflect that he recalls or remembers from personal knowledge this
22 conversation. I think there is a big distinction there. The question
23 needs to be: Does he recollect this? Why? What makes it stand out?
24 Not that he refreshed his memory empty Prosecutor's office before
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa has already promised us she will ask
2 some questions in this aspect at a later stage. I hope you also support
3 Mr. Karnavas's attitude that accept the rulings of this Bench.
4 MS. SINATRA: Of course, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.
6 You may proceed, Ms. Issa.
7 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Can you answer that question, sir? Do you remember what I just
9 asked you? Do you want me to re-ask the question perhaps?
10 A. It's not necessary. In spite of all these objections, I remember
11 the question and I remember what was in my own memory. This was so
12 characteristic, this remark that was made, and this remained in my memory,
13 that there was such a text. And this made it possible for us because the
14 telephone operator left the line open, so we heard the conversation in the
15 room itself.
16 Q. Okay. And when you are referring to the telephone operator, which
17 telephone operator are you referring to?
18 A. It refers to the telephone operator, the person from the telephone
20 Q. Okay. And if you can just clarify what was -- you indicated that
21 the telephone operator left the line open and allowed you to hear the
22 conversation. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that is correct. He left the line open so we could hear the
24 X, Y participants. We did not know anything else except for the part of
25 the conversation that is here, you see. And that is how it reached our
2 Q. Okay. Do you know, sir, the location of the telephone operator
3 who left the line open?
4 A. The operator from Badem.
5 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to direct your attention, sir, to a
6 particular portion of the conversation and to clarify matters, I'm just
7 going to read out this particular portion, Your Honour, with Your Honour's
8 permission. And I also just note that the translation is on the monitor,
9 on the overhead projector. Starting with the top it says:
10 : Hello, Badem. Let me talk to Beara.
11 B: Who wants to talk to him?
12 : The Palma duty officer wants to talk to him. Beara is needed
13 urgently, somebody needs him. The superior command urgently
14 needs him but he has to call me.
15 It's literally translated as the "higher house," I believe in this
17 B: Okay.
18 P: Okay. What? Give me Beara, don't hang up.
19 J: Hello, who is it, Major, I'm the duty officer at Palma, I need
20 Beara urgently. This is Major Jokic, who is that? Why,
21 expletive, are you not answering? Is Ostoja there? Is Brko
22 there? Don't, another expletive, around, the line has to be
23 free and you must pick it up right away. Who is Ostoja?
24 Is Ostoja there? Have him call me urgently. I will, I will.
25 Hello. Hello.
1 Now, directing your attention to this particular portion of the
2 conversation, sir, was there anything at the time when you were listening
3 to this conversation that you were uncertain about?
4 A. Specifically, because I see that the conversation was taken down
5 straight away, I can see that I put it down immediately. As we listened
6 to it, there was the problem of how logical it was for the same
7 participant to be saying all of this and when listening to it again, we
8 realised that that's the way it was. It was a single speaker saying all
9 of this. And he did not leave very long breaks. So that is why we did
10 not put in dots. So it was all with very short breaks, perhaps.
11 Q. Okay. Well, directing you specifically to the last portion of the
12 conversation, "I will, I will. Hello, hello."
13 Is that the portion of the conversation that you were just
14 referring to?
15 A. Yes. When you read this conversation, you have the impression
16 that there are other participants in this conversation. However, it is
17 one single participant giving an answer to someone who we cannot hear.
18 Q. Okay. And is it only that portion, the "I will, I will, hello
19 hello," of this statement that you are referring to or is there any other
20 part of the statement --
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour. It's a leading. It's a
22 leading fashion question. She can ask him to identify it exactly. The
23 gentleman seems to understand what he's reading. She can point him and
24 ask him how, what, why, when, these sorts of questions.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, you are right. It is leading.
1 You may rephrase your question.
2 MS. ISSA: I was simply trying to speed things along, Your
3 Honour. I didn't think it was in dispute, but I will rephrase my
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would kindly ask counsel, once a
6 ruling is made, to please accept it and just move on rather than to
7 editorialise because it causes me to then have to respond. This is direct
8 examination. She is a Prosecutor. She should know how to do direct.
9 That's all I'm asking, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think Ms. Issa is editorialising
12 But anyway, you may proceed.
13 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Can you tell us, sir, which portion of the conversation you were
15 referring to specifically. Perhaps you can just read it out. Just that
17 A. Well, there are swear words there too. How can I read that now?
18 Q. I'm not asking you to read out the swear words. I'm just talking
19 about that particular statement that you told us about earlier that you
20 said initially you thought may have been from another speaker. You don't
21 have to read out the whole thing, just the one sentence.
22 A. The entire part before, "Have him call me urgently." And then it
23 says, "I will, I will, hello. Hello." That is what it refers to. All
24 the rest is all right.
25 Q. Okay. But just to clarify, sir, the question that was raised in
1 your mind at the time, what specifically did that relate to? Which words?
2 A. The following words: "I will, I will. Hello. Hello."
3 Q. Okay. Was there any similar question with respect to any other
4 part of this conversation?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. And how many times did you listen to this conversation?
7 A. I can't tell you exactly, but several times at any rate, meaning
8 more than once.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, turning then to Prosecution Exhibit 232/E,
10 I'm going to ask you if you recognise that. Perhaps we can put it on the
11 overhead projector.
12 MS. ISSA: And for the record, Your Honour, it will be folded over
13 to conceal the witness's name.
14 Q. Now, if you can look at the overhead projector that's next to you,
15 the machine that is right next to you or on the screen. Do you recognise
16 that document?
17 A. Yes. That's the document that is in the notebook in front of me.
18 Q. Okay. And is that the typed version of the same conversation?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And can you tell us, sir, when this typed version was typed.
21 A. This was typed on the 14th of July, 1995.
22 Q. And when did you intercept the conversation?
23 A. The same day.
24 Q. Okay. Was this computer printout also sent to your command?
25 A. Yes. This is a document that had priority, and that's how it was
1 sent to the command. So the time had to be the briefest possible, the
2 time that we had it in our hands while it was taking down, typed out and
3 put on the computer, and forwarded to the command.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I just have a few more questions, sir,
5 that don't relate to the document, so I'm going to ask Madam Usher to take
6 the notebooks away for now, please.
7 MS. ISSA: And perhaps, Your Honour, while I'm asking these
8 clean-up questions, I would offer the notebooks to Your Honours, the
9 original versions, if Your Honours would like to take a look at them and
10 also if the Defence wants to take a look at them they're certainly welcome
11 to do so.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
13 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, we would like to have at the next
14 break the opportunity to inspect the original notebook, but we will use
15 the time at the break if the Court will allow.
16 MS. ISSA: That's fine, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. After the break, I think you could
18 show that notebook to the Defence team as well as to the legal assistants
19 of the Chambers.
20 MS. ISSA: Certainly, but I don't know if Your Honour wishes to
21 see it now. If you don't, I will certainly wait until after the break.
22 JUDGE LIU: Maybe after would be better so that we could save some
24 MS. ISSA: Certainly.
25 Q. Now, sir, when you were intercepting conversations, did you share
1 your information with anyone?
2 A. Intercepted conversations, if a unit or if the civilian authority
3 from the state security, if they asked to look at it on a computer, we
4 would give it to them on a diskette so they would see if there was
5 anything there for them.
6 Q. Okay. And have you seen copy -- would they prepare a report
7 containing the information you shared with them, to your knowledge?
8 A. Well, I don't know that.
9 Q. Okay. What did you do with the notebook, sir, once each notebook
10 was filled?
11 A. I would put them in the safe in my room and when the first shift
12 would take place, that is to say, when people would leave the actual
13 location, then the commander of my company would come, this was one of his
14 duties. And if he was absent, then this could be done by the other
15 officers or the head of the service.
16 Q. Okay. And they would take the notebooks?
17 A. Yes. They would take the notebooks and they would give us empty
18 ones so that we could go on working, although this is not directly
19 related. It's not that we didn't have any, but they had on each report
20 what our needs were and that is how they knew that we did not have very
21 many left. And then when necessary, they would bring us new ones.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, just one last question to clarify
23 something, sir. You mentioned earlier that at times another unit, such as
24 the unit at Konjuh, would intercept the same conversation that your unit
25 intercepted. Do you recall saying that?
1 A. I recall that. At one meeting, we discussed a document that was
2 brought from two localities. One of these documents was either incomplete
3 or was not a faithful copy of that conversation, so this was discussed and
4 a request was made for better work to be performed. So that's how this
5 happened. It seemed that there were others who were following this, too,
6 but then from then ...
7 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, sir, are conversations that are
8 heard -- if the same conversation is heard by your unit and heard by
9 another unit at Konjuh, is it necessarily heard with the same clarity by
10 your unit or the unit at Konjuh?
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. Lack of foundation. It calls for
13 JUDGE LIU: I don't think so. We mentioned other facilities in
14 other places already. Why not ask some questions to this witness to
15 compare the qualities of the recordings?
16 MR. KARNAVAS: If the witness knows. I don't see how -- a
17 foundation hasn't been laid. I mean, was he working over there? Did he
18 make a comparison so he could answer that particular question. That's all
19 I'm asking, Your Honour. I'm not saying that he's not qualified to answer
20 the question.
21 JUDGE LIU: Okay.
22 MS. ISSA: I prefaced my question, Your Honour, with "To your
23 knowledge," so he can tell us if he knows.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you can proceed, Ms. Issa.
25 MS. ISSA:
1 Q. Can you answer that question, sir?
2 A. The only thing I don't know is whether the electronic surveillance
3 documents were provided. And what is stated there quite clearly is how
4 strong the signal was at various localities. And this clearly indicates
5 whether there were differences in strength in terms of the signals
6 received at different localities.
7 Q. All right. Thank you.
8 MS. ISSA: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Ms. Issa.
10 Well, Witness, I'm sorry to say that we have to keep you in The
11 Hague for the weekend because we are not sitting tomorrow for the
12 maintenance of this courtroom. And during your stay in The Hague, please
13 do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about your
14 testimony. Do you understand that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. I think we will resume at
17 Monday afternoon. Yes, the hearing an adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
19 at 11.52 a.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
20 the 3rd day of November, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.