1 Monday, 3 November 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, this is Case Number
7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Before the cross-examination, are there
9 any matters that the parties would like to bring to the attention of this
10 Trial Chamber?
11 Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
12 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we've buried the microphone
13 somehow. We'll get it over here. Yes, Your Honour, and I wanted to make
14 sure that we are in private session for me to discuss this matter.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.
16 MS. SINATRA: Thank you. I'm just going --
17 JUDGE LIU: No. Wait, wait.
18 [Private session]
12 Pages 3762 to 3764 redacted private session.
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, witness.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
24 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to proceed?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Karnavas, your cross-examination, please.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS P-117 [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
7 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. I would first like to discuss a little bit about the mechanics of
10 your position at the relevant period of time that we're discussing. As I
11 understand it, you were in a platoon. Is that correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. I'm going to go step by step so we can -- I know you said some of
14 these things on Friday, but just to -- this is sort of background
16 And it's my understanding that that platoon was sending daily
17 reports to the intelligence organ of the 2nd Corps. Is that correct?
18 You're shaking your head. We have to make a ...
19 A. My apologies. I was starting out -- I was about to give my
20 answer, and if you haven't noticed (redacted)
3 Q. Now, am I to understand that this platoon was part of or
4 subordinated to the 2nd Corps?
5 A. This platoon was part of a company, an anti-electronic warfare
6 company that was part of the 2nd Corps of the BH army.
7 Q. So there was no brigade in between the company and the corps. Am
8 I correct?
9 A. You're correct in assuming that, yes. There was no brigade in
10 between. We were directly subordinated to the 2nd Corps.
11 Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, at this location -- at the
12 location where you were situated during this relevant period, and I
13 believe it's called Okresanica -- am I pronouncing that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There were other units that were listening as well, that were
16 performing the same tasks that you were?
17 A. Yes. In fact, may I just be allowed to explain -- you have just
18 said I need to correct this. There were units that had the same purpose,
19 had the same feature, but those units were part of other formations.
20 Q. Okay. Well, I'll going step by step, so I was just about to say:
21 One of those units, as I understand it from your testimony on Friday, was
22 a lower-ranking unit belonging to the 21st Division. Is that correct?
23 A. That's correct. Precisely. I would just like to apologise, sir.
24 When I nod, that means I am closely following your questions. That's all
25 it means. Thank you.
1 Q. I figured that already. All right. Now, the 21st Division, was
2 that part of the 2nd Corps as well?
3 A. The 21st Division was directly subordinated to the 2nd Corps. The
4 2nd Corps was composed of a number of divisions and one of those divisions
5 was the 21st Division.
6 Q. All right. And was that lower-ranking unit submitting its daily
7 reports directly to the 21st Division or were they sending them, like you,
8 to a particular organ within the corps?
9 A. They sent their reports directly to their units, which means
10 directly to the division. Establishment-wise, this is how it was supposed
11 to be. I was supposed to work. I knew of this due to my knowledge of the
12 establishment, not my knowledge of the procedures being used. Secondly,
13 all the formations that were deployed up there had -- I need to say this
14 again -- the same purpose.
15 Q. Right. Now, you said up there, Gore, that's up to this location
16 where you were. That's what you mean when you say, "up there," as opposed
17 to north, a direction of north?
18 A. I mean the very location you're talking about, the one you have
19 just referred to.
20 Q. All right. Now, there was also one unit, if we could call it
21 that, that belonged to the services of the state security. Is that
23 A. Yes, precisely.
24 Q. Now, they're not part of the army?
25 A. No, they are not, sir.
1 Q. Okay. But nonetheless they were conducting the same sort of
2 monitoring that you were, your unit was as well as the other unit that was
3 subordinated to the 21st Division. Is that correct?
4 A. They were a unit with the same purpose, but they were part of a
5 different formation, as I've said. I'm not sure if I should add any
6 further explanations.
7 Q. Okay. Well, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is or trying to
8 establish I should say, you had two units that belonged to the army and
9 you had this sort of intelligence unit, the services of the state security
10 that belonged to the civilian government, all doing the same thing, that
11 is monitoring conversations. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct. They were monitoring conversations.
13 Q. And from what I understand, sometimes all three units that were
14 there were, in fact, monitoring the same conversation or they were --
15 yeah, they were monitoring the same conversation. There were instances.
16 Is that correct?
17 A. That's what you said, sir. There was no way for me to know that.
18 I had my orders, which I carried out. Back then, there was no way for me
19 to know what their orders were.
20 Q. Okay. All right. Well, you were aware -- let me rephrase the
21 question. Is it not a fact that your unit would share information with
22 the services of the state security and vice versa?
23 A. The last thing you said, that we exchanged information, it was a
24 matter of agreement. As for exchanging information, I can't quite
25 remember whether we ever obtained information from that particular
1 service, but I know that we did give information to them because that was
2 necessary back then. I'm not sure if there was ever any need for us to
3 try and obtain information from them.
4 Q. All right. Let me be a little more specific. There were times,
5 sir, that your unit would obtain monitoring information, monitoring
6 conversations from them that you would then take and put in your daily
7 reports and send them off to the intelligence organ of the corps. Right?
8 A. Well, in as far as this was the case that we did indeed obtain
9 material from them, then it would be sent on to the corps.
10 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Are you saying that you never obtained
11 material from them or are you saying when you obtained? Because I'm not
12 here to play games. I just want a correct answer. And I understand
13 you're an educated person, so please answer the question.
14 A. You've understood this correctly, I am indeed an educated person
15 and that's why I'm trying to answer your question. They gave us
16 information at a different location, in a different place. At the corps
17 itself, there was a unit gathering reports. We had our own sources
18 through which we obtained reports, and those were the reports we sent.
19 There was no need for us at all to obtain material directly from them,
20 because this was done in a different location.
21 Q. Is it not a fact, sir, that there were times that you received
22 monitored information, conversations, that you would then send, put in
23 your daily report and send them to the corps expressing where that
24 information had come from. Isn't that a fact?
25 A. In as far as the head has stated that, precisely that this had
1 been taken over from the state security service, then such material was
3 Q. I'm not -- I don't understand that answer. Sir, let me break it
4 down. All three of you -- all three of the units were working in the same
5 building, were you not?
6 A. That's correct. I'm not sure why we are going back to three units
7 now, as we are talking about two units now.
8 Q. All right. But the state security unit was working right next to
9 you in the same building, right, not in some other hill, not in some other
10 city, but right next to you. Right?
11 A. They were in the same building, but they had their own entrance,
12 the state security and their unit, the unit attached to them, as well as
13 the unit belonging to the 21st Division.
14 Q. And there were times, were there not, when you would give them
15 information that you had gathered from your intercepting and they would do
16 the same thing to you, they would give you information so you could pass
17 it on to your superiors at the 2nd Corps. Right?
18 A. Well, sir, can you please try to prioritise the fact that we were
19 the ones forwarding material to them, because they had a great interest in
20 some of our materials that they chose themselves or selected themselves,
21 material for them. I can't remember myself ever signing or sending the
22 material down there. I was not the one filing the material. I was not
23 the one analysing the material. I was a source of information, a very
24 consistent source of information, if I may add.
25 Q. Well, why don't we go to what has been marked for identification
1 purposes as P249. If you could first take a look at the documents, just
2 look at them and then I will ask you some specific questions.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: And for the record I'll be looking at -- I'll be
4 referring to P249/A, /B, /C, and /D.
5 Q. But please look at them. Now, sir, if you could look at the
6 bottom of the page on the right-hand corner, you'll see the exhibit
7 number. So when I want to make a reference to a particular page, you can
8 look down there and that will help you out.
9 If we could look at what has been marked for identification
10 purposes as P249/D. And as I understand it, the English translation would
11 be found on P249/C. That's corresponding to number 655, Your Honours.
12 Now, with respect to this -- have you found it, sir? P249/D at
13 the bottom. Do you see it? Is that a yes? You're shaking your head.
14 A. Yes. I found it. I found the page.
15 Q. Okay. Now, if we could go step by step. At the top, it says that
16 it's from the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that
17 correct? The very top on the left-hand side.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Thank you. And it makes a reference to the corps, does it not --
20 not the corps, I'm sorry, the platoon.
21 A. Yes, it does.
22 Q. All right. And it gives us a location and also there is a date,
23 is there not?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. And the date is 16 July 1995. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Now, below that it says, "daily report," does it not? In the
4 A. Yes, it does.
5 Q. And then if you go to the next line on the left side, it says:
6 Intelligence organ of the 2nd Corps. Right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So can I conclude -- can we conclude that this was a daily report
9 generated by your platoon that was being sent to the intelligence organ of
10 the 2nd Corps. Can we conclude that? Just from that header, just the
11 information I read to you.
12 A. Sir, I'm unfamiliar with this document. I don't know how the
13 state security unit sent documents to our unit, but this looks very much
14 like one of those, if that pleases you.
15 Q. Well, are you suggesting, sir, that at the top portion that we
16 just covered, that that's coming from the state security? Is that what
17 you are suggesting? Is this not, sir, a daily report sent by your platoon
18 to the intelligence organ of the 2nd Corps?
19 A. I'm not certain about that.
20 Q. Okay. You're not certain. All right. If we go -- as you see
21 there's some dotted lines all the way across the page, and then below it
22 we see some letters and a date, and the date is 17 July 1995. Is that
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. And the letters that are above it reflect -- those are the
1 initials of the security services, are they not, sir?
2 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I'm objecting to this line of questioning.
3 The witness just indicated that he doesn't really seem to recollect the
4 document. I'm not entirely sure if he's now in a position to answer
5 questions to are specific to the document if he doesn't recognise it.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that this document was used in the
7 direct examination. Right?
8 MS. ISSA: No, it wasn't, Your Honour. I didn't actually put it
9 to the witness. I don't believe I did.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: This was not put to the witness, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well -- but anyway, we'll see whether the witness
12 could answer this question or not.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Do you recognise the initials, yes or no, the ones that I just
15 showed to you that are on the left side of the page immediately below the
16 dotted line?
17 A. These initials refer to the state security service.
18 Q. The same service that we were discussing earlier. Right?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. And so -- now if we could look at what has been marked for
21 identification purposes as P249/B, if we could look at that. Now, at the
22 top of the page we have those same initials that we saw on the previous
23 document, which was 249/D. Do you see that? CSB/SDB Tuzla, the date 17
24 July 1995. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. And the first line immediately below what would appear to be the
2 number 652 that was given to these sets of conversations, they indicate
3 the frequency. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. And so the first message is numbered 652, is it not?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Okay. And -- well, just for the record, could you please read the
8 first line under 652. What does it say?
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, if you want to use this piece of
10 document, my advice is to have it translated into English. Because here
11 we only have the 655.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour. And here's my point, if
13 I may. The Prosecution has contended and they presented their documents
14 suggesting that 655 was actually a conversation that took place on the
15 16th. Based on the document that I just presented to this gentleman,
16 which would be 249/D1. What is clear is that this conversation was
17 actually recorded by the security services on the 17th. They then
18 received that information from the security services, and in their daily
19 report, they put down July 16, as opposed to 17. That's the point that I
20 wish to make with respect to this and also to show that the gentleman was
21 incorrect or perhaps his memory is somewhat faded when he indicated that
22 he had not received information or they were not sharing information from
23 the security services with respect to messages that they had been
24 intercepting. And I'm going to show other intercepts to show that it was
25 a two-way cooperation with respect to this issue.
1 JUDGE LIU: But at this place we have a language problem, you
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour, I'll just ask the following
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 MR. KARNAVAS:
7 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that 655 comes after 652?
8 A. If you allow, sir, these conversations were not familiar to me.
9 It was precisely these that I was not acquainted with --
10 Q. Mr. Witness, a specific question was posed to you. Does 655 come
11 after --
12 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I'm going to object to that. First of
13 all, in Mr. Karnavas's submissions to you he indicated that the witness
14 said that the information wasn't given to him or something to that effect.
15 First of all, I think the witness had said in his evidence that he didn't
16 recall whether he had received such information. So that's a
17 mischaracterisation. Secondly, I think the witness is now attempting to
18 explain something, which he's entitled to do, rather than being
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I posed a question. The witness is
21 entitled to answer the question and if he wishes to explain, he can
22 explain. The question was: Does 655 come after 652? That's all the --
23 that was the question and it doesn't call for an explanation, Your Honour.
24 But I can move on if the Court wishes for me to move on.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, can you answer that question? It's a
1 specific question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understand the question
3 correctly, does material number 655 come directly after 652, I see a
4 number of things in between.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I didn't insert the word "directly," but in
6 any event, I'll move on, Your Honour.
7 Q. As far as you're concerned you never saw that document that was
8 provided to us from the Prosecution. Is that correct though?
9 A. Please believe me, I'll never tire of saying this. I'll be just
10 as persistent as you are. I do not remember this document, sir.
11 Q. Does that mean you have never seen it? That's all I'm asking.
12 MS. ISSA: How is he going to answer that question, Your Honour?
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you have to give a direct answer. It's
14 very -- just a yes or no.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, can you just repeat the
17 MR. KARNAVAS:
18 Q. Do you recall seeing the document, sir, yes or no?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And can I conclude that the Prosecution in prepping you to come
21 and testify did not show this document to you?
22 A. I've never seen this document.
23 Q. Very well. The top part of that document where it talked about
24 daily reports, did that look familiar to you? Not the contents, but just
25 the top portion of the document. Would that be consistent with the
1 language that you -- or the information that you would put down in daily
2 reports when you sent them to the corps?
3 A. I would like to point one thing out, though, are you talking about
4 conversation number 652 or 655 or are you talking about the document as a
11 JUDGE LIU: Well --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but it's not the same form.
13 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, I have to warn you, look at the
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
16 Q. Now, you indicated on direct examination the procedure, and I want
17 to go through the procedure a little bit. As I understand it, you're not
18 an analyst. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, you got that right, sir.
20 Q. So you were not there to analyse the information, but merely to
21 make sure that you could pick up conversations, in other words, monitor
22 the frequencies, pick them up, record them, and send them off. Is that
24 A. Yes. As faithfully as possible.
25 Q. All right. And the basic procedure was that as soon as you could
1 locate a conversation, you would immediately begin to record it -- not you
2 personally, but your staff, everybody in that platoon. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that was the usual practice.
4 Q. What do you mean by "usual"? Was there another practice too that
5 we haven't talked about?
6 A. No. This was the regular practice. There were also extraordinary
8 Q. And when you say "extraordinary cases," you mean that they weren't
10 A. No, sir. You misunderstood me. What happened was that several
11 conversations would be recorded at once. The first one would be at zero
12 position on the recording device, and then apart from the regular data
13 such as the channel frequency, participants, and so on, the data that
14 would be entered would be from what point to what point on the counter.
15 The conversation was recorded. So they would be recorded in sequence.
16 Q. Okay. But my point is that the first step in this process is the
17 recording of a conversation, you first record it. Right?
18 A. If by that you mean that at the moment a conversation was
19 registered, yes, the recording would begin at that point.
20 Q. All right. And by that I mean the tape recording. Then the next
21 step would be to listen to the tape recording and to try to write down as
22 faithfully as you could what was on the tape, what had been picked up?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And sometimes the conversations were rather clear and so you could
25 write them directly into the notebooks as you were hearing the tape
1 recording, as the tape was being played, that is. Right?
2 A. Yes. There were conversations of this sort, sir.
3 Q. Then there were other conversations where you could not quite make
4 out what was being said, and so, as you indicated, like a deejay, you
5 would have to play it over and over again until you would try to figure
6 out exactly what was being said. Right?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And those would be recorded -- those would be transcribed
9 initially on pieces of paper until you were comfortable that it was a
10 true, accurate, and complete transcription of the conversation before you
11 would write them into the notebook. Is that correct?
12 A. No. No.
13 Q. All right. Well, that's what I understood you to have said on
14 Friday. So please tell me, what was the actual procedure in instances
15 where the recording was poor -- of a poor quality and you were trying to
16 figure out the exact words.
17 A. I will explain it several times, if need be. When we received a
18 conversation that was very difficult to transcribe, we would say it was
19 very difficult to take down, we would listen to that material sentence by
20 sentence, word by word, stop and go back, and then we would put it down in
21 the notebook. There was no reason to write it down on a piece of paper.
22 Q. Okay. So I misunderstood. And there were times, I take it, that
23 you had some difficulty in quite understanding what was being said?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. The next step -- incidentally, when you are writing it out, on the
1 choice of punctuation, whether you put a comma, a period, an exclamation
2 point, was there any set procedure or was it left up to the discretion of
3 the person who was trying to interpret or transcribe what was from the
5 A. We were required with regard to details such as when someone
6 raised their voice, we would have to put an exclamation mark there. If
7 there was a question, we would use a question mark. When there was a
8 pause, we would use a comma. Several points, several dots, would mean
9 that we had been unable to understand a part and to transcribe it.
10 Q. All right. And was everyone educated equally, that is, those who
11 were performing those tasks?
12 A. No, sir.
14 (redacted). And I don't need the specific ones
15 of each one, but what was the range of education?
16 A. Well, for the most part it was secondary school. That was the
17 mean level.
18 Q. As I understand it, the next step was once you had transcribed
19 what had been on the tape, the next step would be to give it to somebody
20 else and that they would type it out. It would go to the KZU operator to
21 be encrypted so then it could be sent out. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes. Yes, the procedure you have just described was the one what
23 was used.
24 Q. And as I understand it, those who were operating the KZU were not
25 the same folks, such as yourself, that were monitoring, recording, and
1 transcribing the conversations that you had been able to pick up?
2 A. They did not have to be radio operators in order to monitor
3 conversations. You are quite right, there was more than one person there.
4 And some of the operators even worked on KZU.
5 Q. Okay. And I mentioned this because you've indicated on direct
6 examination that the transcription from the tape conversations into the
7 notebooks were verbatim. Correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But then when they went from the notebook to be then typed out,
10 you had nothing to do with that?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Now, when the typed version -- when the messages were actually
13 typed out, was there any quality control in a sense that they would come
14 back to you or to your colleagues to check to make sure that what was
15 typed out matched what had been written out into the notebooks?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So they came back. So you would read it, make sure that it was
18 true, accurate, and complete before it went out?
19 A. The document would be on the computer screen from where the
20 operator who had received the document would look at it and compare it
21 with the transcript in the notebook. He would then say "Yes, this is
22 correct." There were more problems that had to do with the KZU operator
23 being unable to read a word, then he would ask -- he would go back to the
24 person who had written it to explain it to him or to read the text to him.
25 Q. But my question was slightly different, in other words, somebody
1 other than the typist would not then look at it to make sure that it was
2 absolutely accurate before it was sent out? In other words, a clean set
3 of eyes.
4 A. There was another check that followed in the command. This check
5 would be carried out after the documents and the notebooks that had been
6 archived were compared, as were the tapes we had handed in. So the entire
7 material would be reviewed again.
8 Q. All right. So the answer to my question, though, is no? At the
9 platoon where you were before something went out, there was nobody that
10 independently checked after it was typed out to make sure that the typed
11 version matched what was in the notebooks?
12 A. That's -- yes, I see you're insisting on this question, and the
13 correct reply is that I carried out spot checks of the material, but I was
14 not able to check everything. I wasn't there all the time.
15 Q. Okay. Fair enough. And I take it, if we could go further back
16 into the process, after somebody had transcribed what was on the tape,
17 there was no, shall we put it, clean set of ears to do another quality
18 check to ensure that what was on the tape actually was put down on the
20 A. In principle, no.
21 Q. Okay. And I take it today, as we stand here, we do not have any
22 tapes that we could listen to that would give us some comfort, assurances,
23 that what was actually put down matches verbatim to what was heard and
24 transcribed and typed out and sent and brought here in court today?
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think this question is put to
1 Prosecution but not to witness. How could the witness answer this
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, he could answer if he knows that the tapes
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may try that.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. What happened to the tapes after they got filled? Did you
8 preserve them?
9 A. I apologise. That was not your previous question. If you're
10 asking me that now, I will be pleased to answer that.
11 Q. Well, I'm going to -- I'll break it down. Were the tapes
12 preserved so we have some archive of all the tapes, of all the intercepts
13 that filled those 30 notebooks that we have here?
14 A. Sir, I cannot know this. Let me answer your previous question as
15 to where the tapes were sent. When the tapes were filled, they were sent
16 to the commander of my unit; that's where they went.
17 Q. Okay. So they were not re-used?
18 A. We received tapes that had been previously used. I'm speaking of
19 some of the tapes. So some tapes were new, others were being re-used.
20 For example, the radio station which had lots of tapes and were able to
21 give us some, they used a different speed so that it was not a problem to
22 record over and there were no problems in that respect.
23 Q. Okay. All right. But when you record over or you erase and
24 record over, it's fair to say that what was originally recorded is lost.
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Now, I don't know what kind of tapes you use, but the ones that
3 I'm familiar with are the ones that you could puncture at the top on the
4 one side to make sure that they cannot be re-recorded, in other words,
5 what's on it stays, so by accident you can't erase any portion of it. Was
6 that procedure used by your platoon?
7 A. Are you referring to the tapes or the cassettes, just to clarify?
8 Q. All right. Let me -- well, maybe you can help me out here. When
9 you were tape recording, were you using a reel-to-reel or were you using
10 these little cassettes?
11 A. Reel-to-reel.
12 Q. Okay. All right. And not the little cassettes?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All right. And then you would send off those reels along with the
15 notebooks at some point to your command?
16 A. They were not necessarily sent together as a single package, but
17 yes, they were sent to the command. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Now, just one last question on this area. Were there
19 occasions where you would -- where there might be a shortage and you on
20 your own would go ahead and erase the reel in order to re-record?
21 A. Allow me to try and remember. I know there was a shortage of
22 reels and I also know that there was a period of time when we did have
23 this situation. This was when there was very little activity and we would
24 even erase our own reels. But those that had already been sent to the
25 command, those were the ones we would erase.
1 Q. Okay. Now, since then have you had the opportunity to see those
2 reels that you had sent off to your command?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. And I take it as far as you are concerned, you don't know what
5 happened to those or where they are, if they still exist?
6 A. The tapes were sent to the command. What happened to them further
7 was not my job.
8 Q. I never suggested they were. And I take it, in working with the
9 Office of the Prosecution they have never shown you any reels for you to
10 listen to?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. All right. Well, I have to ask. All right. All right. Now, if
13 I could -- if we could go to what has been marked as P231 for
14 identification purposes. I believe this was a document shown to you on
15 Friday. And we're just going to cover some technical matters. First I'd
16 just like you to look at all of these pages that are attached as part of
17 231, and you should have them labelled as A, B, C, D, and E. Just take a
18 look at them, and then for the record I'm going to try to explain what
19 they are before we jump into them.
20 Okay. Now, if we look at 231/B at the bottom on the right-hand
21 corner you'll see a B. Do you see that, sir?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. This would be the original transcription from the notebook.
25 A. Yes, that's correct, sir.
1 Q. And then if we look to A, what has been marked as A, it's in
2 English. And I understand from Friday where you corrected the screen at
3 one point, you must read English, could you look at it to see whether, in
4 fact, this is a translation of B.
5 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
7 MS. ISSA: I don't think we can presume that the witness actually
8 reads English. What he corrected was a numerical point or a number from
9 the screen. I don't think that's a fair question. Having said that, it's
10 obviously a translation. I don't think that is going to be in dispute.
11 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I don't believe that was the dispute.
12 When his direct testimony was going on. It was about the dialect between
13 the KZU and the original transcribed conversation. It was a dialect
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, first of all, let us see what is the question.
16 What is the point that Mr. Karnavas is going to make.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right. Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Let me just ask you this: Do you know whether -- can you read
19 English? Yes or no.
20 A. I don't understand.
21 Q. You don't understand or -- the question is: Do you read English?
22 Not whether you understand English.
23 A. With great difficulty, sir.
24 Q. Okay. All right. Then I want to ask you the next series of
25 questions. Then let's look at what has been marked as P231/D. Now, do
1 you see that, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recognise that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Okay. And is it not the same -- is it not a translation or a
6 typed version of what was -- what is in 231/B? I'll tell you what, why
7 don't I withdraw that question and I'll ask you another question. Okay.
8 Do you see -- if I could point your direction -- if I could point
9 your attention to what has been marked as 231/E. Do you see that, sir?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
11 Q. And this document is a daily report, is it not?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. And this daily report is a --
14 MS. ISSA: Excuse me, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
16 MS. ISSA: I'm just wondering if we can remove that document from
17 the ELMO, please.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
20 Q. And this document is a transcription of what is in 231/B, is it
21 not? If you can just take a good look at it.
22 A. Yes. Yes, but which is a transcription of what?
23 Q. All right. Well -- all right. B is the handwritten version,
24 correct? B, the handwritten version.
25 A. Yes, it's a copy of the record.
1 Q. E, the one that says E has the same text that is in the
2 handwritten version, but it's typed and it's in a daily report generated
3 by your platoon and sent to the intelligence organ of the 2nd Corps, is it
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. Okay. Now before we get to this document and discuss it, all
7 right, before we get to it, I want you to look at what has been marked as
8 D, 231/D. And for right now, I would like you to just focus on the
9 language, the text itself. Is the text of the message not the same -- is
10 it not the same as the text that's in 231/E?
11 A. The difference is that document 231/E is typed in both capital and
12 small letters, while D is typed out only in capital letters.
13 Q. Okay. But the message itself, what was -- what is being sent is
14 the same. Right?
15 A. Yes. Yes, it's the same conversation.
16 Q. Now, if we could focus our attention just a tiny but on D. If you
17 look at the left-hand corner, at the top of the page, we see a number,
18 right, 626, do we not?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Okay. And then we have the date. Correct? Is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Now, where did this document come from? Do you know?
23 A. Well, according to the line of text just underneath the date, we
24 can see that this is from a state security report.
25 Q. So can we conclude that they either listened to the same
1 conversation or your platoon passed this information on to the state
2 security services?
3 A. Well, it says very clearly, taken over from PEB of the 2nd Corps,
4 which means that this is our material that we sent on to them.
5 Q. Precisely. Precisely, which is exactly the question I had asked
6 you earlier, was there not occasions.
7 MS. ISSA: I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, that was not the question that he asked
10 earlier. I think now Mr. Karnavas is misstating the evidence. What he
11 asked him was whether the army took information from the state security,
12 not vice versa. He's already testified about this in the
14 MR. KARNAVAS: I think if we go --
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, let's not go back to the previous statement --
16 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree.
17 JUDGE LIU: You just ask your question.
18 MR. KARNAVAS:
19 Q. So here is one piece of document demonstrating, does it not, that
20 material was given by your platoon to the security services that were in
21 the same building but in another room so that they could pass it on to
22 their handlers, their superiors, while you were sending yours to the
23 intelligence organ. Right?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Now, Your Honours, incidentally I should point out
2 for the record that C is a translation of D and C, at the top of the page,
3 it does say, "Adopted from 2nd Corps," which is what the gentleman had
4 just read from D. Now, am I to understand correctly, Your Honours, that
5 about this time we take a break or do I continue?
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, if you --
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't know.
8 JUDGE LIU: -- feel it convenient, we'll break now. Which means,
9 did you finish this part of the cross-examination?
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I've finished this part but not this entire
11 intercept. But I finished this part. This would be an excellent point to
12 stop unless you want to give me another 15 minutes.
13 JUDGE LIU: I think we'll break now.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.
15 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 4.00.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. Please continue.
20 MS. ISSA: Excuse me, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MS. ISSA: I'm sorry to interrupt. I just wonder if we can go
23 into private session for a few minutes, please.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session.
25 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Sir, I believe when we left off, we were discussing what was
19 marked for identification purposes as P231. And if you could be so kind
20 as to -- I'm going to be referring to B and E, and in the English version
21 it would be A.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: It's my understanding, Your Honour, that A is a
23 direct translation of B.
24 Q. Okay. Now, sir, just again as I understand it, those who were
25 typing out the handwritten messages, they were not at liberty to make
1 corrections and had to type out exactly what was written out in the
2 notebooks. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go through this document and point out a few
5 matters and perhaps you can assist us here. If I'm correct, you've been
6 handed a copy that has some markings on it or highlighted. Is that
7 correct? Are there any highlights to those documents?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. All right. Now, if we could look at the handwritten version to,
10 one, two, three, four, five, I believe it's the fifth or the sixth line,
11 there's one particular word, and in the English version it would be one,
12 two, three, four, five, six. And I'm particularly focusing on the
13 sentence that says: "How can I find out where General Zivanovic is?"
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes, I see that.
16 Q. As I understand it, and I'm not an expert in your language, but
17 as I understand it, that is of the dialect that is commonly known as
18 Ekavski. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, sir. That's correct.
20 Q. Now, if we look at what was trans -- what was typed out in the
21 daily report, as I understand it, it's in the other dialect, the Ijekavski
22 is that correct.
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. So here we can say that there is a discrepancy, can we not? Minor
25 as it may be, nonetheless there is a discrepancy?
1 A. I agree with you in that respect, sir, but there is a grammatical
2 discrepancy, too.
3 Q. All right. I didn't pick that one out. Do you want to share that
4 with us?
5 A. It's what you just said, the words "gde" and "gdje," both mean the
6 same thing, but in two different dialects.
7 Q. Okay. Now, if we went further down in the handwritten version,
8 and it's further down in the English in the sentence where it says: "Yes,
9 yes. I understand you." Do you see that? It's further down towards the
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, again we see the same error, do we not?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Okay. But then the same words are used correctly, as I understand
15 it, further down, where it says "Razumem." It would be on the next page,
16 the first line. Is that correct? There they corrected themselves.
17 They're using the correct dialect.
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. And then again I just -- it's a minor point, but I just wanted to
20 point it out that in the sentence on the second page in English where it
21 says: "I understand. I'm going to the post up there."
22 In the handwritten version where it says "gore," "up there," the
23 last word, there is no period, probably an oversight, whereas when it was
24 transcribed, there is a period there. Do you see that? It's on the
25 second page, sir. Where it says: "I understand. I'm going to my post up
2 In the handwritten version, there's no period; whereas, in the
3 typed version there is a period. Is that correct? On the second page --
4 A. I apologise. I couldn't find it immediately, but I see it now,
6 Q. Okay. All right. Now -- so there's no period in the handwritten
7 version. Correct? I mean, it's an oversight, no drama.
8 A. Here in the copy that I have, there is no period. I'm not sure
9 about the original, but this document that I have in front of me now does
10 not have a period there.
11 Q. Okay. But if you look at the type-written version, you will find
12 a period, would you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Now, if we could just focus our attention slightly on that
15 particular sentence, and I'm going to read it in English and you follow
16 along. It says: "I understand. I'm going to my post up there."
17 In the handwritten version you see the period after the word "I
18 understand," is that correct? We're still on the same sentence, sir, on
19 the second page. If you could look at the handwritten version. Right
20 after the words "I understand," there is a period.
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Okay. Now, could we also not put a comma there? "I understand,
23 I'm going to my post up there." Would that also not work?
24 A. You could easily tell if you had a chance to listen to the
25 recorded conversation. If you look at the transcript, it's a bit
2 Q. Yeah. Well, we don't have that, see, that's the problem. Okay.
3 So in other words, as you sit here today you cannot tell us whether a
4 comma could easily fit into where that period is?
5 A. No, sir. I can't say that.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now we're going to go to another set of
7 documents if that's okay. And I would like to direct your attention to
8 the other document that was presented to you on Friday, and that's P232
9 that was marked for identification purposes. And if you could just look
10 at them first.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: And if I may, Your Honour, just to save a little
12 bit of time, and the Prosecutor can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my
13 understanding that what has been marked as 232/A is a translation of what
14 has been marked as 232/C is a translation of /D. And /D is a typed
15 version of /B. And /E is a daily report with the contents of /D.
16 I'll try to lay a foundation to the witness, but I think I have it
17 right, Your Honours.
18 Q. Okay, sir, if you could look at what has been marked as /B first.
19 A. Yes, I found it.
20 Q. I think you would agree with me that /B is the handwritten
21 version. Right?
22 A. I would, yes.
23 Q. Okay. And if you were to look at /E, at the top of the page again
24 it shows that this is a daily report having been generated from your
25 platoon being forwarded to the intelligence organ of the 2nd Corps. Is
1 that correct?
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
7 [Private session]
12 Page 3799 redacted private session.
3 [Open session]
4 MR. KARNAVAS:
5 Q. Now, before we go into the content, if you could look at /D, what
6 has been marked as 232/D, and I believe the English translation is /C. Do
7 you recognise this document, sir?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Okay. Now, who generated this document?
10 A. If you look at the form of this document, it is obvious that it
11 was not generated by my unit. The material being referred to is the same
12 material that we had in front of us just a moment ago.
13 Q. Okay. So another unit came up with this -- made this document?
14 Or was this shared by your unit to another unit? If you can help us out.
15 A. There is no way for me to know that, sir.
16 Q. Okay. That's fine. So we won't discuss them.
17 Now, let's look at, as I promised, /A, /B, and /E. Okay. And I
18 would like you to focus on /B and /E while the rest of us also look at /A,
19 which is the English translation. The first line says: "Hello, Badem.
20 Let me talk to Beara." Do you see that?
21 A. Excuse me, sir. I don't have the comma after hello.
22 Q. Okay. And you're absolutely right. That's in the English
23 version. Somebody put it there, whoever transcribed it. In the
24 handwritten version there is no comma after hello, right, but there is a
25 period after Badem. Correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, could we not also put a comma there, "Hello Badem, let me
3 talk to Beara."
4 A. Well, believe me, I never gave this any thought whatsoever.
5 Q. Okay. But grammatically speaking, and I'm not suggesting that you
6 should have given it any thought, but grammatically speaking --
7 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MS. ISSA: I understand my friend has asked a number of questions
10 in this line and I haven't objected to this point, but I just don't see
11 the relevance of this and I just don't know how much longer we're going to
12 be dealing with this particular issue of grammar.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, it's unfortunate the Prosecutor
15 doesn't sit here every day when we take evidence, but there was last week,
16 for instance, one particular intercept where the witness did indicate that
17 it all depends on where you put the comma, and whether it has a comma
18 there or period. So that's the whole purpose of this.
19 JUDGE LIU: No. What's the point in that particular content?
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, what I'm trying to suggest, Your Honour --
21 rather, what I'm trying to prove is that the person who is writing it down
22 is making a -- it's at his discretion whether he puts a period or a comma
23 after certain words or phrases. And so, because of the testimony of the
24 other witness last week, he gave one interpretation depending on whether
25 you have a period. He said it has another interpretation if you have a
1 comma. I'm trying to suggest that we have no way of verifying of whether
2 a comma or a period should be up there -- should be on the paper. It fits
3 well within the theory of my case.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, if the document puts a full stop there, then
5 it's a full stop.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour, but at the same time if
7 the witnesses is willing to say that he gave it not thought and that
8 grammatically a comma could go as well as a full stop, obviously, that --
9 it all depends -- the interpretation of the document depends on who put it
10 there and what are the reasons. If it's just pure by accident, then the
11 Prosecution should not be able to say, "Well, there's a full stop there,
12 therefore, this particular meaning should apply."
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, are you going -- we are at the very beginning of
14 this document. Are you going to each sentence and paragraph and challenge
15 that full stop? There must be a point, you know. You may raise in a
16 particular sentence in a theme and ask a question to this witness, whether
17 there should be a comma or full stop. If you have a case, you know. You
18 cannot go like this.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I don't mean to be disrespectful and I
20 certainly don't want to argue the point, but if a Prosecutor is going to
21 stand up here and say: "This is the interpretation for this particular
22 intercept because the witness said this is how I interpreted it because
23 there is a period there." And have another witness who is taking the
24 intercepts and saying "Well, yes, a comma could go here or a period could
25 go here." And if I don't have the tapes, as the gentleman indicated, it
1 all depends from listening to the tapes, then I think there is a dilemma
2 as far as the Tribunal is concerned, the Trial Chamber is concerned as to
3 whether to accept one interpretation versus the other. And where there is
4 doubt, that has to go in favour of the Defence, not in favour of the
5 Prosecution. That is my point. And I need to make a record so that at
6 the closing argument in my submission brief I can show there were
7 instances where based on the individuals --
8 JUDGE LIU: No, don't wait until that time. You have a particular
9 case in this conversation, in these intercepts. Just a point to that
10 particular place and ask a question to this witness. But don't go
11 paragraph -- sentence by sentence.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: There are only two or three sentences, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Believe me, I can go through all the intercepts and
15 point out thousands of discrepancies. These are just little vignettes.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed with the witness. We'll see how
17 far it can go.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Now, if we could go further down, there's one indication where it
20 says "Duty officer." Do you see that? Further down, a few lines further
21 down in the handwritten version there is no comma but in the typed
22 version, the person typing it inserted a comma. Is that correct?
23 A. Just let me check this, please.
24 Q. Sure.
25 A. Are you referring to referring to the sentence, the duty officer
1 of Palma needs him?
2 Q. Where it says: "Hello, who is it, Major, I'm the duty officer."
3 That's the one. "I'm the duty officer at Palma." At Palma.
4 A. "Hello, who is it, Major, I'm the Palma duty officer." Is that
6 Q. Okay. Let me go on to another one. Further down in the page you
7 say: "Hello. Hello." There's one section. Do you see that?
8 A. "Hello, hello."
9 Q. Right. And you have periods there. Right?
10 A. Just a moment, please. Are you referring to the part of the text
11 where it says: "I will, I will. Hello. Hello." Is that it?
12 Q. Yes. So you have a hello. Then there is a period. Then the next
13 hello is on the next line. Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And you have periods there; right?
16 A. Not in the written text. You mean after every word there's a
17 period. Is that what you're trying to say?
18 Q. Look at the document. Look at the one that is handwritten. It
19 says: "Hello. Hello." Am I correct? Yes or no.
20 A. Yes, you've just explained it very well. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. All right. Now, if we could look at the type-written version in
22 your daily report.
23 A. Yes, I'm just looking at it.
24 Q. Now, it says: "Hello! Hello!"
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. That is different, is it not, the type-written version from the
2 handwritten version?
3 A. If we are going to go into these tiny little details, then there
4 are some extremely minor differences.
5 Q. Okay.
6 [Technical difficulty]
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you have to explain to us what is
8 the difference by changing those exclamation marks and full stop. I just
9 fail to see that unless you pointed to a particular place where the
10 meaning of the sentence will be totally changed if we changed those full
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would be more than happy to argue
13 this point outside the presence of the witness.
14 JUDGE LIU: You mean it's a legal question, not a specific?
15 MR. KARNAVAS: What I'm suggesting, Your Honour, is by providing
16 an answer to your question the witness may be influenced --
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have some technical problems because the
18 transcript. Would you please stop here.
19 Well, Mr. Karnavas, you haven't finished?
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. What I don't want to do is
21 telegraph where I'm going to this witness. And I think it's important
22 that I be able to argue my point of relevance to the Court without giving
23 the witness an opportunity to see where I'm going with my line of
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think the instruction from the
1 Chamber is you point to that particular place where if somebody changed
2 that comma into full stop, the meaning will be totally different. I just
3 want you to do that.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: We understand that there is a lot of grammar
6 discrepancies. There is no problem about it. But the problem is that you
7 have to direct our attention to that particular place, which might be
8 relevant to this case.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, what I'm trying to suggest, and maybe,
10 I'm being inarticulate today, is that the person who is writing these
11 things down is using his or her discretion as to whether to put a full
12 stop or a comma. I understand you're asking me to show that there would
13 be a different meaning. That's not the purpose of this cross-examination.
14 The purpose is to show that they make a discretion. And on one particular
15 intercept that's critical to us, the Prosecution has a witness who says it
16 all depends on whether you put a period or a comma. What I'm trying to
17 suggest is and I even indicated this in my cross-examination, that where
18 that comma was a period could be inserted, or vice versa. I don't recall
19 the instance. In other words, it all depends on where the person who is
20 taking the information decides to put it, because they're getting this
21 information. They're not analysing it. That's not the purpose of it. So
22 that's all I'm trying to demonstrate here so I can have a foundation so
23 later on I can make my argue as to reasonable doubt with respect to one
24 particular piece of evidence. And I certainly don't mean to take up the
25 Court's time.
1 Also, there was an instance where this witness indicated that
2 everything is taken down verbatim. What we can see is that discrepancies
3 do exist. In one particular instance, in the next document I'm going to
4 show, they even insert an expletive that wasn't recorded. I don't know if
5 this satisfies the Court, but I certainly don't mean to be argumentative.
6 JUDGE LIU: Let's come to the next document.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. If I can direct your attention to what has been marked for
9 identification purposes as P245. And for the record, if I may, and I can
10 be can corrected if I'm wrong 245/A is a translation of /B, /D is the
11 typed version of /B and /C is the translation of /D.
12 Sir, if you can look at these documents first.
13 A. Yes. I'm just looking at these documents. And let me add, I did
14 not draft these.
15 Q. Okay. I understand that. But you're here, are you not, as the --
16 we may need to go into private session for this question.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.
18 [Private session]
12 Pages 3808 redacted private session.
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in open session.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Now, the intercepts that were monitored and recorded by the
24 security services had a number, did they not?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. Whereas the intercepts that you recorded in the notebooks did not
2 have a number?
3 A. Excuse me. What numbers are you referring to?
4 Q. A number to the particular intercept, like intercept number 655.
5 When you would -- you had your notebooks and as the intercepts were coming
6 in, you were recording them. Right?
7 A. Sir, you seem to have missed the fact that this is a document not
8 generated in my unit. It may have come through a different channel.
9 Number 646 and so on, these were numbers entered by a different unit and
10 there are other people you can ask about that.
11 Q. All right. Did you hear my question, though?
12 A. You were talking about numbers above the text, number 642 or 645.
13 Q. Let me go simple on you. In your notebooks, any notebook, before
14 an intercept was written out, did you put a number on it or did you just
15 write in the intercept?
16 A. Sir, we noted the frequency, the time, the participants.
17 Q. And so the answer to my question is: No, you did not give it a
18 number. Correct?
19 A. No, we didn't give it a number. Yes.
20 Q. All right. Thank you. Whereas the security services would give
21 numbers as we saw, such as 655, the one that I showed you earlier. Right?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Okay. Now, what I'm showing you right now, does it have a number
24 that would give us the indication --
25 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I would like to object.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, before -- I'm entitled to ask my
2 question and then if she hears the question, then she can object.
3 Otherwise, I will indulge in the same form of objecting.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. You may finish your questioning.
5 MR. KARNAVAS:
6 Q. Now, in looking at this document, we don't see a number, and from
7 that can we not conclude that most likely it is not from the security
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa.
10 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour, I'm objecting because counsel has now
11 framed his question a very misleading manner. We have already established
12 that there were other platoons that were monitoring and intercepting
13 communications other than the state security services and other than the
14 one we're dealing with currently. So I think it's very misleading to put
15 the form of the question in that manner without indicating that there are
16 other platoons who were doing the same work.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, obviously the Prosecutor has not
18 listened to the question, because it's a process of elimination. First, I
19 want to eliminate the security services --
20 JUDGE LIU: Well --
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Then I go to the next one.
22 JUDGE LIU: I understand. But your question makes it very
23 difficult to understand because you used two negative terms and when
24 translated into another language it will be a disaster. So you use the
25 simplest language to ask your question.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. And if I could, Your Honour, with the
2 Court's indulgence, if I could consult my co-counsel with respect to a
3 matter concerning what we're talking about right now. Ten seconds
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. And I apologise.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. I have before me what has been marked as Exhibit P327, and perhaps
9 if I -- if the gentleman could be shown my particular copy, if he -- if
10 you could just look at the front -- the first page, perhaps this may
11 clarify this. And I'm not -- would you just look at it.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you have to tell us what are the
13 contents of this document.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: This is a document given to us by the Prosecution,
15 and it is the cover of a notebook. And then there is a sequencing of the
16 pages that are numbered. And it would appear that the document that I am
17 referring to was part of that notebook. So if indeed this notebook was
18 one of theirs, then it would stand to reason that the document that I'm
19 showing the gentleman is a document that was generated by his unit. So I
20 don't know if he's able to clarify that matter. If he can, fine. If he
21 cannot, then I won't push the issue, Your Honour.
22 Q. Having looked at the front page, does that appear to be a cover of
23 a notebook generated by your unit? If you could look at that and maybe
24 the following few pages.
25 A. Sir, I do not recognise the front page of this notebook. Just let
1 me mention in passing that we did have another location where the same
2 work was conducted that we did. So within the company, there were two
3 such platoons. There was an identical platoon to ours working in a
4 different location.
5 Q. Okay. And did they use the same sort of notebooks as you did? Or
6 you don't know?
7 A. I don't fully understand your question.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. Just a moment, please. That's your conclusion, sir. You said the
10 same kind of notebook. Are you referring to the way entries were made or
11 are you referring to the same type of paper, the same type of binding, the
12 same physical notebook? Would you be clearer, please.
13 Q. Well, had I asked you the question: Were they filling out the
14 notebooks in the same manner, then you would understand exactly what I was
15 asking. My question was: Did they use the same types of notebooks that
16 you used? And from that one can only conclude that what I'm asking is
17 physically, were they physically the same?
18 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, it's really not necessary to be sarcastic
19 in asking questions. I think, you know, the witness is trying to clarify
20 something he didn't understand. It was a legitimate question and it's
21 totally unnecessary to behave in this manner. And I don't think it's
22 respectful to the Court.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I think the witness is being less than
24 responsive and is playing with the Court.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I told you that you should ask a
1 very simple question. And if there's a problem of translation and you
2 have to understand that. I believe both of us are not experts in that
3 language at all.
4 MR. KARNAVAS:
5 Q. Looking at the document that you have before you, does it appear
6 to be the same kind of notebook, copy of a notebook, that you were using?
7 A. As I can see that this is not a document I had, not a notebook I
8 had. It's not a notebook I filled in. I really don't want to answer this
9 question because there are other people from the unit who could give you a
10 reply to it.
11 Q. Is the size of the document that I've shown you the same size as
12 the notebooks that you were using? Yes or no.
13 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, we have a problem with the fact this is a
14 photocopy, not the actual notebook. So, I mean, I don't --
15 JUDGE LIU: But there's no problem with the counsel to ask this
17 MS. ISSA: Very well, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE LIU: Witness, you may answer that question.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I do apologise, but I had
20 drawn the gentleman's attention to this, asking whether it was the same
21 format. And I will reply again, yes, it's the same format.
22 MR. KARNAVAS:
23 Q. Thank you. Now, the other platoon that you say was located, was
24 that platoon located in the same area or in some other area? Was it the
25 same town or the same hill?
1 A. No. It was quite far away from us. It was not on the same hill,
2 not on the same mountain. It was on another mountain, another location.
3 I don't know if I can say that in open session, what the location was.
4 Q. Okay. So to the best of your understanding or the best of your
5 knowledge, having looked at not just the front page but looked through
6 this notebook, a copy of the notebook shown to you, it is your testimony
7 under oath that this document is not generated by your platoon? You're
8 absolutely 100 per cent positive?
9 A. I apologise. I can't say for sure on the basis of this copy. I
10 can't say for sure that this was not generated by my unit, however, I do
11 believe that it was not generated by my unit.
12 Q. All right. Do you know whether the other platoon that was doing
13 similar work as you were doing, that was part of the same company and part
14 of the same corps, used the same type of notebooks that your platoon was
16 A. I don't know, sir.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: At this point, Your Honour, I ask that I proceed
19 into the substance, unless counsel wants to argue to the contrary that the
20 gentleman is not qualified for me to point out the discrepancies in this
21 particular intercept.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Ms. Issa.
23 MS. ISSA: Well, Your Honour, the witness has just indicated he
24 doesn't believe that this has come from his platoon. He certainly doesn't
25 recognise it. He thinks that it came from somewhere else. How can he
1 possibly now be asked questions in relation to the substance when he has
2 no -- he had nothing to do with this particular notebook? In my
3 submission, that would be improper and unfair.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, your question is that this is your
5 testimony under oath that this document is not generated by your platoon.
6 You're absolutely 100 per cent positive? It's a very absolute question.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: It is.
8 JUDGE LIU: So I believe that after the examination of those
9 documents the witness gave a reasonable answer.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Right, that he could not -- the other side of the
11 coin is that he cannot rule this out and being his -- he cannot say it is.
12 He thinks it isn't. But he's not willing to rule out the possibility.
13 Then when we look at the other facts, it is the same size, it is from a
14 notebook that looked like all the other notebooks. Even if it were from
15 another platoon, we can only assume that that platoon is using the same
16 method of recording with the same sorts of devices, the same quality
17 control or lack of control, sending it to the same areas. So I think,
18 given that, one could reach a reasonable conclusion that this gentleman
19 would be qualified to at least go on record to share with us the
20 inconsistencies. Now, if the Prosecution -- because I get all these
21 documents from them, if they can tell us exactly where these documents
22 came from and whether they intend to produce a witness that we can
23 question that witness regarding this intercept, then I will reserve that
24 line of questioning for that witness. They would know. They have the
25 originals. So they would be -- they should be able to produce the
1 originals, show the gentleman the original. He might be able to have a
2 better understanding. But at this point, I'm relying on what they gave
3 us. And in this particular intercept, we see some glaring errors, glaring
4 errors. And I'm not suggesting that this man wrote it down. Obviously,
5 he doesn't recognise the handwriting.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa, are there any witnesses in the future
7 to testify to this particular document?
8 MS. ISSA: Yes, there will be, Your Honour. And yes it does
9 happen to be a witness from a different platoon, which is what I was
10 trying to indicate earlier and I know Mr. Karnavas did not want me to
11 indicate that and just tried to get it through the witness. But I can
12 tell you as a fact that there will be another witness from a different
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, you still have the opportunity in
15 the future.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, had I known this 15 minutes ago, I
17 wouldn't have gone through that questioning. But with that
18 representation, I have no further questions, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, very much.
20 Ms. Sinatra, do you have any cross-examination or you prefer we
21 have an early break?
22 MS. SINATRA: I would prefer we have an early break. We need to
23 make a physical transfer of podium, et cetera.
24 JUDGE LIU: What do you mean by physical?
25 MS. SINATRA: I need to use the podium, so --
1 MR. KARNAVAS: I could use the break as well, Your Honour.
2 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour. I will be prepared in 10
3 minutes to go forward.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think we will resume at 20 minutes to 6.00.
5 Yes, we will resume at that time.
6 --- Recess taken at 5.08 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 5.41 p.m.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
9 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. Just before I start my
10 questioning, I'd like to bring to the Court's attention that we do have a
11 Defence witness in the courtroom who is our expert witness, Mr. Ashkenasy.
12 I believe it has already been ruled that expert witnesses have the right
13 to listen to the testimony of the witnesses that have to do with their
14 expertise. I would just like to let the Court know that Mr. Ashkenasy is
15 in the courtroom.
16 JUDGE LIU: What do you mean by in the courtroom?
17 MS. SINATRA: Not in the courtroom. He's listening in the
18 chambers outside.
19 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Ms. Issa?
20 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone, please.
22 MS. ISSA: Sorry, Your Honour. No objections to him sitting in
23 the gallery.
24 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry. Thank you for the terminology.
25 MS. ISSA: Sorry, Your Honour. While I'm on my feet, I just
1 wondered perhaps just as a matter of housekeeping I can go back to the
2 issue that you asked me earlier relating to the disclosure of the tapes.
3 I wanted to clarify one matter because I didn't want to seem misleading in
4 any way whatsoever. I can indicate that we've provided all the relevant
5 tapes to counsel and we have given access to counsel to the tapes that may
6 not necessarily relate to the July 1995 period but that we do have in our
7 possession. So they are aware of it. I understand that, in fact,
8 Ms. Sinatra over the summer period did, in fact, come in and listen to a
9 tape and/or she was also provided with some additional copies of tapes,
10 which again we are not relating to conversations which we are not
12 So the bottom line is, they are basically informed of what we do
13 have in our possession and certainly have had access to everything.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. Just -- well, I guess I'm
16 a little perplexed. First there were representations that they have
17 nothing. Then she qualified by saying they gave us the relevant. Now it
18 appears that aside from what they deem is relevant, they have other
19 material. I would like a clear answer, perhaps they cannot give it to us
20 today, but perhaps she could go back and meet with the senior trial lawyer
21 and tell us exactly what tapes or reels they have. And because if that is
22 the case, then I will be making a request for at least the Trial Chamber
23 to review those and to see whether we should be entitled to any tapes that
24 were not available. I know for a fact, that's why I was a little taken
25 aback by the representation made earlier, I know for a fact that in the
1 Krstic case there was one particular tape that was played or that they
2 attempted to play and it became a very big issue. So -- and then she made
3 this representation. So I would like to know exactly from the Prosecution
4 what tapes they have. And I certainly don't want a Prosecutor determining
5 what is relevant to my case, because they don't know what my case is
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I hope that tomorrow morning if
8 you are free you could meet with the Prosecution to discuss this matter in
9 details. If there are any difficulties, just inform us.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Well --
11 JUDGE LIU: We'll do whatever we can to help you.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I will meet with the Prosecutor, Your Honour. And
13 I will -- certainly will do that and see whether we can resolve this
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
16 Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
17 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I just wanted to add my comments
18 on the disclosure of the tapes. This is not -- this does not mean that it
19 has to be relevant to the exact paragraphs in the indictment. We're
20 challenging the reliability of the process of recording and taking the
21 intercepts, and therefore, there are other areas that would be relevant to
22 this issue besides just the specific information that they have outlined
23 in the indictment. So we would like to have access to intercept
24 information that -- especially in the Brdjanin case which I have just
25 requested that we believe is very relevant to the process of intercepting
1 conversations, transcribing them, and capturing them for -- in their
3 JUDGE LIU: My recommendation is that you join Mr. Karnavas in
4 that meeting with the Prosecution tomorrow morning. We try to solve all
5 those issues out of court. If there's still any problems, just don't
6 hesitate to come to the attention of this Bench.
7 Yes, Ms. Sinatra, are you ready to proceed?
8 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I'm ready to proceed.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
10 Cross-examined by Ms. Sinatra:
11 Q. Dobar dan, P-117. How are you this afternoon?
12 A. Good afternoon. I'm fine. And you?
13 Q. I'll well, thank you. I just want to go back on your direct
14 testimony. I believe you laid a foundation that you were an amateur radio
15 operator with the B and C license, which you acquired during your military
16 service. Is that right?
17 A. Yes. I would just like to add the following: In addition to B
18 also all the lower ranking permits and licenses that C, D, E, F included.
19 Q. But the highest ranking you have is B. Is that right?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And all ham operators all over the globe internationally take the
22 same test that you did to become certified or licensed with B and C. Is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes. That's correct.
25 Q. Now you were in the JNA starting in 1982. Right?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And you specialised -- I don't know how -- whether we need to go
3 in private session, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, to be out of caution, we'll go to private
5 session, please.
6 MS. SINATRA: Okay. Thank you.
7 [Private session]
12 Pages 3823 to 3827 redacted private session.
23 [Open session]
24 MS. SINATRA: I would like to ask with the assistance of the usher
25 to bring out P321. I don't know if we can put it on the ELMO. If we can,
1 I would really appreciate the assistance.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll try to put it on the ELMO.
3 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.
4 Q. Sir, could you take a look at what has been marked for
5 identification purposes as P321 and you've seen this map before, haven't
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. In fact, this map is a product of your unit, isn't it?
9 A. You got this map from the command of my unit.
10 Q. And could you just point on this map to -- I want you to point out
11 several communications centres. And we will start with Konjuh. Could you
12 show us where Konjuh is located.
13 A. Madam, the map would have to be on a larger scale for that.
14 Q. Okay. So it's off the map. Right?
15 A. I can't find it. I can't look around the edges of the map.
16 Q. Can you tell us where Okresanica was located. Was it located on
17 Mount -- I can't read it. I'm sorry. Majevica.
18 A. Yes, yes. Majevica. That's right.
19 Q. And can you tell me, were Konjuh and Okresanica the centre of the
20 BiH communications in 1995?
21 A. No, Madam.
22 Q. Okay. In 1995 they weren't -- the combination of the two did not
23 comprise the centre of the communications for -- let's say for the
24 2nd Corps, then?
25 A. No. No, they didn't.
1 Q. Well, what was included in the communications centre for the
2 2nd Corps, then?
3 A. Madam, this has nothing to do with me.
4 Q. Okay. Well, I'm trying -- first of all, sir, you don't know what
5 my purpose is in my questioning. I would like for you to identify since
6 you do know the zone, the area, that you were ordered to monitor. It lies
7 between three rivers, doesn't it? Can you just circle around the area
8 that is your zone of monitoring from the 2nd Corps.
9 A. You want to say -- as I'm to do it on this map, I can point out
10 only part of this zone.
11 Q. Right. Because it is a gigantic zone, isn't it?
12 A. Yes. You're quite right. It is gigantic and we have a part of
13 the zone of responsibility here, a large part of the Drina Corps, and then
14 there's the radio relay centre. But there's only a part of it on this map
15 and some of the participants.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you. I would like to go to the centre for the VRS
17 communications system. Do you know where that was located?
18 A. The radio relay station of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika
19 Srpska was in Panorama located on a nearby hill overlooking Han Pijesak.
20 Q. And Han Pijesak was the centre of VRS command at the time, wasn't
22 A. Yes, that's correct. The Main Staff. Yes.
23 Q. And the location of the communications centre, was it Mount Veliki
24 Dzep; is that correct?
25 A. I'm not sure that was its name. I can't point it out on the map
1 right now.
2 Q. The centre of all the vectors on this map, is that the VRS
3 communications centre?
4 A. Madam, this is the radio relay centre.
5 Q. Okay. Well, we're looking at the radio relay centre and I have
6 the map out. Can you see the radio relay from what you have marked as
7 Panorama? There's no direct link to Zvornik, is there? I think if you
8 look at the top of your map --
9 A. I can't see it. I can't find the Palma participant.
10 Q. Look at the top of the map.
11 A. Yes, I found it now.
12 Q. And there's no direct communication from Panorama to Zvornik, is
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. It has to go via a relay station about 30 or 40 kilometres away.
17 A. I can't tell you through which relay centre, but of course yes, it
18 had to go through one.
19 Q. And, in fact, you know that Zvornik is in a valley. Isn't that
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. Surrounded by mountain peaks?
23 A. Yes. That's evident on the map.
24 Q. Since you were in electronic warfare, are you familiar with where
25 the location of the Croatian centre for communications was, the HVO?
1 A. I don't know that.
2 Q. Do you know where the IFOR communications centre was located?
3 A. I don't know that either.
4 Q. Since you were a former member of the JNA, do you know where
5 Bacenica is?
6 A. No, I don't, Madam. Tell me.
7 Q. And Bacenica was the centre for the JNA of their electronic
8 warfare. Is that right?
9 A. I don't know that, Madam.
10 Q. Okay. You don't know where Kutlovo is?
11 A. I don't know that either, Madam.
12 Q. You do know that the signal coverage for all of Eastern Bosnia was
13 very poor. Is that right?
14 A. Do you mean with radio relay apparatus or telephone signals or
15 what do you mean?
16 Q. I mean intercepting radio waves on a site-to-site basis was very
17 difficult in Eastern Bosnia.
18 A. That's what you say, Madam.
19 Q. Do you agree with me?
20 A. I wouldn't agree, no.
21 Q. Okay. I'm going to move forward.
22 Let's talk about in 1992 the Bosnian army when the war started
23 called up all radio ham operators, didn't they?
24 A. Would you repeat your question, please. I really didn't hear it
25 quite well.
1 Q. In 1992 when the JNA pulled all of its equipment out of Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina, there was a call for all amateur radio operators to come
3 forward to set up electronic warfare units. Is that correct?
4 A. I have nothing to do with that, Madam.
5 Q. You weren't called up in 1992 to help form an electronic warfare
6 unit for the new BiH army?
7 A. Madam, you just mentioned a while ago that it was the JNA. I know
8 that on the 20th of April, 1992, members of the JNA took me prisoner in a
9 place near the town where I lived. And their goal was to capture ham
10 radio operators. They came to look for radio stations and out of the four
11 that had existed, they didn't find a single one.
12 Q. Do you think the purpose of their taking you into custody was to
13 make sure there were no amateur radio stations for the Bosnian Muslims or
14 for the Bosnian Serbs?
15 A. I don't know what the purpose was, but I do know I was taken
16 prisoner. At the same time, there was an announcement in the newspapers
17 telling people to capture ham radio operators.
18 Q. But you were released and your equipment was not seized, was it?
19 A. Yes, precisely so, because they didn't find my equipment. I don't
20 want to think about what might have happened had they found even a single
21 radio station, because that's what they were looking for.
22 Q. Well, I'm not going to go into the political situation at the
23 time, but I'd like to ask with the usher's permission -- I mean
24 assistance, to show you what has been marked for identification purposes
25 as D323.
1 Sir, let me ask you if on during your direct examination you
2 talked about having an RUP-12 ultra short wave radio that went from 30 to
3 70 megahertz. Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Does this look like the piece of equipment you're talking about?
6 A. Yes, it does.
7 Q. And it comes with a portable bag that goes with it as an amateur
8 radio operator?
9 A. I apologise, but you mentioned two things that don't go together.
10 What do you mean by amateur radio operator and a bag?
11 Q. Is this the kind of equipment that you had as an amateur radio
12 operator, or is this the more sophisticated equipment that you gathered in
14 A. The equipment on the first picture on page 1 is an RUP-12, and it
15 was only after the beginning of war operations that we were given this
16 kind of equipment. As an amateur radio operator, I did not have this
17 equipment, this kind of equipment before the outbreak of the war, that is.
18 Q. In fact, this equipment that we're looking at, the RUP-12, was one
19 of the more sophisticated pieces of equipment that you had at your
20 communications centre, wasn't it?
21 A. Yes. I had this equipment in 1982 when I was doing my military
23 Q. And you used it in 1995 at Okresanica, didn't you?
24 A. No, Madam. No, we didn't.
25 Q. I believe on your direct testimony you testified that you used an
1 RUP-12. You're saying you didn't?
2 A. I apologise. Yes, during the war, that's true. But in 1995 at
3 Okresanica, we did not.
4 Q. So you weren't testifying on -- the other day on the equipment you
5 had at the communications centre in 1995, then?
6 A. In 1995 we did not have an RUP-12. I know that for certain
7 and ...
8 Q. Can you go to the next picture. I believe that it's a -- this is
9 like an amateur transceiver. Is this more like what you had used in the
10 communications centre when you formed it in 1993?
11 A. Madam, we did not have this type of equipment. I owned a piece of
12 equipment of this kind, FT23R before the war. And it's 0.5 watts. The
13 RUP-12 are 15 watts, well that is the beta above the accumulated -- the
14 battery would not be able to take this.
15 Q. But all your equipment that you had at Okresanica, you didn't use
16 batteries for it. You had it hooked up to an electric generator, didn't
18 A. We went through two generators in parallel, and we had two times
19 280 ampere hours which is 12 volts and 360 ampere hours because all our
20 equipment would operate at 12 volts.
21 Q. Your generators used gasoline, didn't they?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. And if you ran out of gasoline, the generators had to stop, didn't
25 A. The generators, yes, that produced electrical power. But we also
1 had 220 volt grid. And if that failed, then we had the generator. And
2 there were batteries and the large corrector. So they could hold out for
3 two days without any additional power generation.
4 Q. So you're saying that in 1995 at the top of this mountain you had
5 an electrical land line that provided you with electricity up there?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. All right. I would like to go on to the next piece of equipment
8 that I have in front of you. It's an ICOM AH-7000. Would you look at the
9 third page of that exhibit, please?
10 A. Yes. Yes, this is the AH-7000 aerial.
11 Q. And this is the antenna that you had at Okresanica, isn't it?
12 A. Madam, all this information dates to 1992. How can this be valued
13 for the year 1995? This is the antenna we had in 1992. And it was part
14 of the equipment we had at that time. It was with this kind of antenna
15 that we carried out part of our electronic activity.
16 Q. So you're saying this is not the kind of antenna you had in 1995?
17 A. We didn't need it.
18 Q. All right. Well, I'd like to move on to other equipment. You
19 have been talking about your UHER recorders.
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Now, the reason we're offering testimony here is so that the Trial
22 Chamber can understand all this equipment better and so we can all have
23 the correct picture of what circumstances existed at that time.
24 The UHER recorder that you're talking about was a big reel-to-reel
25 tape recorder, wasn't it, like we used in the 1960s?
1 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. And the tapes were those exposed tapes that went reel-to-reel.
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. And you can wind it, rewind it, tape over it all the time. Right?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. With that equipment, the quality of the tape itself diminished,
8 each time you recorded over it, didn't it?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. In fact, sometimes there was bleeding in of the previously
11 recorded conversations into the ones you were trying to record at the
12 moment, wasn't there?
13 A. These were unimportant conversations. They would then be erased
14 and then the tape would be rewound.
15 Q. Now, when you made the determination to re-use tapes because new
16 tapes had not arrived, you didn't erase the tapes, did you? You recorded
17 over them.
18 A. I gave you an example where one conversation could be taped over
19 another if part of an unimportant conversation was recorded and then the
20 tape was rewound. But we had a large number of tapes that we got from the
21 radio station from a nearby town, and these were recorded at a speed quite
22 a lot higher than the one we used. And then, there would be no
23 possibility of an identifiable conversation appearing, because these were
24 mainly tapes with music on them.
25 Q. So you're stating that there was no distortion or pollution on the
1 tapes that had been used over and over again that you recorded over that
2 came from the radio station. Right?
3 A. Yes, there was. There was.
4 Q. I want to go to another topic now. You know, you formerly work
5 for the JNA, and -- because for me I still refer to the JNA -- I mean to
6 the Serbian army as the JNA, will you tolerate my use of that term?
7 A. I don't mind.
8 Q. We both know that we're talking about the army that was once the
9 former Yugoslavia which became what is now the Serbian army. Right?
10 A. Precisely.
11 Q. Now, in 1995, the Serbian army had a lot more modern equipment
12 than the BiH army did, didn't it?
13 A. That's true.
14 Q. In fact, while you were still with the JNA in the 1980s, a big
15 modernisation of the equipment took place under the code name of Arios,
16 A-r-i-o-s; is that right?
17 A. Believe me, Madam, I know nothing about that.
18 Q. So you weren't aware of the code name for modernising all the
19 equipment with the JNA?
20 A. No, I wasn't aware of it. I'm not familiar with that code name
21 you've just mentioned, Arios.
22 Q. Maybe if I put it in its context a little clearer. This took
23 place in the early 1980s. So you would have been 1982, and the process
24 took place between 1982 and 1989 under this code name, Operation Arios.
25 A. I don't know. I know nothing about that.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. You can answer any way you want to. I'm just
2 trying to get, you know, the truth one way or the other. So thank you.
3 If you don't know, I don't know is just fine.
4 So you're not familiar with any of the components that were
5 purchased during this Arios electronic warfare modernisation. Right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And you were in the JNA 1982 until 1992. Right?
8 A. No, Madam, no. I did my regular military service between 1982 and
9 1983. That was it. Afterwards, after I returned home in 1983, I was part
10 of the reserve forces. And from 1985, I was a reserve officer.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. But you were still in electronic warfare.
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. As a reserve officer, were you familiar with the Watkins
15 Jenkins -- I'm sorry, Johnson WJ-8955 electronic system? I'm sorry that
16 was Watkins Johnson.
17 A. No, I'm not familiar with it. But you keep referring to
18 electronic warfare all the time. I was in electronic warfare, I this, I
19 that. Madam, I was into electronic warfare during the war. It would be
20 much more precise to say that I was into electronics, generally speaking,
21 and that as a radio amateur I was into traffic, into communications using
22 radio equipment. That would be the correct way to say it.
5 Q. Well, when the JNA modernised and got all new equipment, they gave
6 their old equipment to the VRS, didn't they? And the VRS is the Bosnian
7 Serbian army -- Bosnian Serb army.
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And some of the special equipment that the JNA had was purchased
10 by Bosnian Serb businessmen in the United States, wasn't it?
11 A. I don't know that, Madam.
12 Q. They also got new encryption machines for the JNA during this
13 period, didn't they? Are you familiar with the encryption process?
14 A. No, I'm not.
15 Q. Do you know what I'm talking about when I talk about in-time
16 processing of intercepted material?
17 A. You must be talking about the description of material.
18 Q. Within a certain period of time and not postponed before it's
19 analysed. Let's say there's a 20-minute to two hour realtime, in-time
20 processing of information.
21 A. Well, Madam, it wasn't always the same period of time. This very
22 much depended on the quantity of material one had to deal with. All in
23 all, you could say it was between 20 and 30 minutes, but ...
24 Q. Okay. But that's an intelligence, a signals term for doing the
25 interception and communications with the authorities within a limited
1 period of time. Are you familiar with that term, in time?
2 A. Yes. I am familiar with something very much like it. I know that
3 the length of time is supposed to be kept as short as possible.
4 Q. Thank you. I want to go back to the JNA. And there's a reason
5 for this line of questioning. The JNA had 12 MiG-21 planes equipped with
6 pods for surveillance under them, didn't they? MiG-21 is very modern,
7 isn't it?
8 A. Yes, it is, a very modern one.
9 Q. It's a surveillance plane, isn't it?
10 A. I don't know that. I don't know that that was indeed what it was
11 used for.
12 Q. Do you know that the JNA and the VRS shared information?
13 A. I don't have any such information, Madam.
14 Q. You don't know that from the military situation you were involved
16 A. I'm only telling you what I know.
17 Q. Well, you know that part of the intelligence operation, the
18 communications operation, is also to send out misinformation or
19 disinformation, isn't it?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And you're familiar with an operation from masking information
22 called "Operativno Maskiranje"?
23 A. The term itself "Operativno Maskiranje," no, I'm not familiar with
24 it. But I know that disinformation is spread to deceive the enemy. It's
25 used by all armies of the world. Also by merely comparing intelligence
1 gathered on the ground, you verify the truthfulness of a certain piece of
2 information and so on and so forth.
3 Q. So as you stated, this is common in all military operations or
4 intelligence operations throughout the globe, but it's also -- some of the
5 terms used in this are misinformation, decoying, planting fake
6 conversations, those are all part of it, aren't they?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Now, you testified earlier about being familiar with the code
9 names in the VRS and you went through a list and filed a list of what you
10 considered were the code names that you were familiar with in your
11 interception process. Right?
12 A. That's correct. I was familiar with those code names. Some were
13 used on a number of different occasions. Some were used very often. It's
14 difficult to say how many times each of those code names were used, but
15 each of the code names was used on a number of different occasions.
16 Q. And the code names that you talked about were code names for
17 certain locations. Right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. But there were also individuals that had code names, too, weren't
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you provide the Prosecution with a list of the code names of
23 the individuals also?
24 A. Well, you see, Madam, you need to speak to someone from the
25 command, because they were the ones forwarding materials, not me
2 Q. So you didn't know the code name for Mr. Jokic, did you?
3 A. I didn't, personally.
4 Q. Now, the VRS had its own network of permanent interception
5 stations at different locations, didn't they?
6 A. Please, I'll try to repeat this to see if I got it right. The VRS
7 had several monitoring stations placed in different locations. Was that
8 the question?
9 Q. Yeah, they had a communications plan that was called code name
10 V-a-t-r-a, "Vatra." Are you familiar with that?
11 A. The name itself rings no bells. I don't remember the name.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the interception devices used by the VRS,
13 were they the RPK3s, Hungarian made?
14 A. I'm not familiar with those.
15 Q. You knew they had special scanners, didn't you, the VRS, that is?
16 A. I didn't know what they had, except for the information that was
17 available to us. Whenever we got information from them, that was all we
18 had. But personally, I had no other knowledge.
19 Q. I forgot whether you've answered -- forgotten whether you've
20 answered this question or not. Did you tell me that you knew the VRS had
21 more sophisticated equipment than the Bosnian army in 1995?
22 A. Even back in 1992 they did.
23 Q. And that's because they got most of their equipment from the JNA.
25 A. I don't know that.
1 Q. Now, when the war broke out in 1992, the main communication tower
2 for the JNA had been the Stolice tower north of Tuzla. Is that right?
3 A. That's what you said, Madam. One of the communications centres
4 was there in Stolice. It was a radio relay centre.
5 Q. And all of the communications from your unit went through -- you
6 pronounce it Stolice?
7 A. Please, you've just said that all our communications went through
8 the radio relay centre at Stolice. Is that what you said?
9 Q. Well, the BiH connection to all of Eastern Bosnia was through the
10 Stolice tower. Right?
11 A. I don't think I could quite agree with you, Madam. Are you
12 talking about the wartime period? Are you talking about peacetime? This
13 is something we need to clarify before we go on.
14 Q. I'm talking about 1992 to 1995. It was a very important high area
15 that was the connection for the BiH army to Eastern Bosnia.
16 A. Well, Madam, this was very interesting for us. You're right, as
17 far as that's concerned. But I think it's other people you should talk to
18 about this, not me.
19 Q. Well, your communications was basically greatly hindered and cut
20 off by the VRS taking over this Stolice tower, wasn't it?
21 A. That's correct, Madam.
22 Q. In fact, it really severed your connections with Croatia,
23 Sarajevo, and Srebrenica, didn't it?
24 A. I have no idea why you're asking me. I never worked in the area.
25 I was not particularly familiar with the area. I don't see how I fit in
1 with all of this.
2 Q. Because your specialty is communications and intelligence, and
3 that's why I thought you must know your main connections to Sarajevo and
4 Srebrenica were then cut off by the VRS taking over the Stolice tower.
5 Maybe cut off is the wrong term, but severed and affected.
6 A. Well, Madam, I had no reason to think about these things, believe
7 me. I had enough on my plate as it was.
15 (redacted) . It was only after that that a small unit
16 was formed to intercept pilot's conversations at first. We monitored
17 planes, aircraft, with great intensity, then afterwards we started
18 monitoring combat on the front itself. That was what we reported about
19 primarily. It was only in November or December that we had better
20 equipment to be able to monitor communications that went through the radio
21 relay centres. We could monitor part of their radio relay stations, the
22 small ones, back in July or August, but the major communications we didn't
23 begin monitoring before November or December.
24 Q. But when they took over the tower, all you had basically were the
25 ham operator equipment that you possessed personally. Right?
1 A. Well, it wasn't only hand-held equipment. There were stationary
2 pieces being used.
3 Q. But they were all amateur radio enthusiasts that had been called
4 up as part of the Territorial Defence, isn't that correct, under the
5 Tito's Plan?
6 A. Madam, will you please tell me which period you're referring to?
7 Called up when? At which point in time? Can you please give me a date or
8 a whole period of time and called up where. I have no idea what you're
9 talking about, I'm afraid.
10 Q. I know you do. We're just not communicating. When the war began
11 in 1992, the effective organisations that you're talking about that were
12 there to protect the public were part of a constitutional organisation
13 called the Territorial Defence, and you worked with that, didn't you?
18 Q. Thank you. When -- you know, we lost the Stolice tower in 1992,
19 but also the underground cables of communication for the BiH between Tuzla
20 and Sarajevo and between Srebrenica and Sarajevo had been destroyed by the
21 VRS, hadn't they?
22 A. There was no way for me to be aware of that. I really had a lot
23 on my plate at that point in time, to be quite honest. I was so busy.
24 Believe me. That the communications themselves, I don't know. I suppose
25 there was someone else to look after that. What I was doing was my job
1 strictly, and that's how it worked. It worked as I've just described.
2 You're talking about a different period, about the loss of Stolice and so
3 on and so forth. There was a rupture in our communications and we wanted
4 to put people back together, because people were scattered every where.
5 You had no idea who was alive and who had been killed. Some people
6 managed to escape. Sometimes you got word from certain people. And our
7 aim was to make sure that all our equipment was in good working order,
8 which it sometimes wasn't. We were facing lots of practical, technical
9 problems. Those were our immediate tasks, to get the basic documents in
10 order for establishing communication. I had to set up radio relay
11 stations, which was my duty as a non-commissioned officer. This
12 non-commissioned officer created by the JNA back in 1985. So I did my
13 duty and my work was structured in this way, as I have just described to
15 Q. I just want to go back to my question which was whether you new
16 that the underground cables for communications had been severed between
17 Tuzla and Sarajevo and Tuzla and Srebrenica, which meant that all the
18 telephone lines went from 1.080-something telephone lines to, like, 24 to
19 the area. You don't remember that?
20 A. Well, Madam, believe me, I don't have this information. It's only
21 now that I realise.
22 Q. And -- but you did know that there were no separate telephone
23 lines designated for the Bosnian army versus the general public. Right?
24 A. I didn't know that.
25 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm about to start another topic. This
1 might be a good place to quit for the evening.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's almost 7.00. We will resume at 2.15
3 tomorrow afternoon in the same courtroom.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
5 at 6.59 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
6 the 4th day of November, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.