1 Thursday, 4 December 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
10 And good afternoon, Witness. Are you ready to start?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I am.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
13 Any cross-examinations?
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, Your Honours, this witness calls for
15 no cross-examination.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
17 And Mr. Stojanovic? Yes.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I
19 would like to take the opportunity and ask several questions.
20 WITNESS: MILOS MITROVIC [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. I would like to clarify some things that arose from your testimony
1 yesterday. I don't think that my cross-examination will last long. We
2 know where you worked. We know where you were, and we know that you were
3 a member of the engineering company. Yesterday when you gave your
4 testimony, at one point when you were talking about the 13th July, 1995,
5 before you left for Snagovo, I shall remind you of the following. You
6 said, I received information. I don't know whether this was something
7 that Jokic ordered Jevtic to take my equipment and to go Snagovo. Do you
8 remember that you said that yesterday?
9 A. Yes, I remember.
10 Q. Can you now clarify one thing for us. Who was it, Mr. Mitrovic,
11 who told you to go to Snagovo?
12 A. Jevtic.
13 Q. I'm not mistaken when I say that Dragan Jevtic was the commander
14 of the engineering company?
15 A. You're right.
16 Q. I have to ask that before the Trial Chamber because we all know
17 these names but we have to just state them for the record.
18 At that moment on the 13th, in the afternoon, did you see
19 Dragan Jokic at all?
20 A. I believe that he was in the barracks, that he did come to the
22 Q. Based on the fact that you think that he was in the barracks, did
23 you then arrive at the conclusion that he gave this order to Jevtic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Am I right in saying that Dragan Jokic, as the chief of
1 engineering company, could not send you -- so many of you to Snagovo
2 without the knowledge of his superior command?
3 A. I don't think he could.
4 Q. When you say "I don't think he could," what do you mean? Are you
5 saying that he only conveyed this order from the brigade command?
6 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying.
7 Q. In this specific case, this was a major combat operation, this was
8 the decision of the brigade command, if I'm not mistaken?
9 A. Yes, I believe that this was the case.
10 Q. The task of the chief of engineers was to convey this order to the
11 platoon commander, and then this platoon commander conveyed that order to
12 you. Isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. And let me finish with that. Dragan Jokic, as the chief of
15 engineers, could not have issued any such order independently, without the
16 knowledge of the brigade command?
17 A. I don't think he could do that.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic. And now let's go back to the 16th when
19 Dragan Jokic's name was mentioned again. You said that on the 16th of
20 July, between 8.00 and 9.00, you saw Jokic in the engineering company. Is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Can you help us with something. Am I right in saying that every
24 morning in the brigade command, that is, in Standard, there were meetings
25 held by the brigade staff. That is when all the tasks were distributed.
1 Am I right in saying that? Are you aware of that fact?
2 A. I believe that you're right.
3 Q. I'm not doing anything about clarifying the time. As a rule,
4 there were morning briefings at the brigade command, and that's when tasks
5 were given to battalion commanders, staff officers, and they were told
6 what they were supposed to do. This makes sense to me. I would like to
7 know whether this conversation between you and Dragan Jokic, which took
8 place between 8.00 and 9.00, according to you, was before such a meeting
9 or after such a meeting?
10 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.
11 Q. Let me put it in a different way. As a matter of principle,
12 orders given to the engineering company, were they, as a rule, conveyed
13 after tasks were distributed in the brigade command?
14 A. I believe this to be the case.
15 Q. Thank you. On that day, on that morning, on the 16th, did you
16 discuss a need to engage the engineering company for asanacija, or were
17 you just given the task to go to Kozluk?
18 A. I was just told by Jokic to go to Kozluk and I was also told that
19 Lazarevic would be waiting there for me.
20 Q. Yesterday you said, and I would like you to confirm that today,
21 Jokic didn't tell you what you were supposed to do in Kozluk?
22 A. No, he didn't.
23 Q. Once you left for Kozluk with the Skip, you didn't know what your
24 task would be, what you were supposed to do there?
25 A. No, I didn't know.
1 Q. In the interview that you gave on the 15th of March, 2002, this
2 issue was discussed, but just for the record let's clarify some things.
3 When Major Jokic gave you this order, did you notice anything unusual in
4 his behaviour or in his actions?
5 A. No, I didn't see anything unusual.
6 Q. You're saying that you left for Kozluk and that by the Vitinka
7 company you met with Damjan Lazarevic. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. And Damjan Lazarevic instructed you as to what you were supposed
10 to do?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. You saw the hole. Am I right in saying that these were gravel
13 holes, that is, the gravel that had been excavated?
14 A. Yes, you're right.
15 Q. So these holes had already been excavated, and this is where the
16 victims' bodies were?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It was not your task to dig any new holes?
19 A. No, this was not our task.
20 Q. Lazarevic told you that your task was to bury the bodies in the
21 already existing holes?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, let's try and explain to the Trial Chamber where
24 this all is. Am I right in saying that this location, these holes, were
25 by the public road leading from Kozluk towards the Drina river and on
1 towards the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that is, on to the ferry on
2 the Drina river?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Were the holes by that road?
5 A. Yes, they were.
6 Q. Would I be right in saying that this is not a secret place. Those
7 holes were very close to the road?
8 A. You're right. This is not a secret place. The holes were by the
9 road, by the public road.
10 Q. Help us, please, with the following: When I say that there was a
11 ferry on the Drina river leading towards the Federal Republic of
12 Yugoslavia, what kind of a place is that? What kind of a ferry crossing
13 is that?
14 A. I don't understand your question.
15 Q. On the Drina river, was there an embankment? Was there a place
16 from which you cross the river towards the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
17 A. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.
18 Q. Yesterday when you were saying that you only worked about half an
19 hour with this machine, that is, the Skip Torpedo, is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. Your machine, let me put it that way, your machine could not do
22 the job for which you were sent, because it was very weak, according to
23 you. It did not have enough power and not enough capacity?
24 A. Yes. I said that the machine was not in order. It was working
25 with only 30 per cent of its normal capacity.
1 Q. What did you mean when you said that the machine was weak, that it
2 did not have enough capacity?
3 A. It's a construction machine that was used for digging canals and
4 for minor works, road works, that is.
5 Q. Can you please show us with your hands how wide the claws are.
6 A. The width of that claw was 1 metre, 80 centimetres. That is the
7 front claw. And the back claw, in the back, was about 60 centimetres
9 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that these claws were not
10 adjusted for easy burial; they were adjusted for excavation?
11 A. The front one was for loading, and the back one was for the
12 digging of canals.
13 Q. If I understood you well yesterday, the burial of the victims
14 which were in two or three holes, according to you, was carried out by the
15 ULT-220 that arrived subsequently. Am I right?
16 A. Yes, you are.
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I think you and the counsel are
18 speaking the same language, so please make a pause after hearing the
19 question put to you by the counsel. Do you understand that? Thank you.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. So since we speak the same language, on your screen where once you
22 see that the text stops, you can start answering your question. That will
23 make our interpreters' life easier.
24 Mr. Mitrovic, on the 16th, after your meeting with Dragan Jokic in
25 the morning hours, did you see him again in Kozluk, that is?
1 A. No, I didn't see him, either in Kozluk or anywhere else. I didn't
2 see him at all.
3 Q. So I would be right in saying that he didn't arrive in Kozluk
4 while this job lasted. He didn't supervise your work. He didn't control
5 what you were doing there?
6 A. No, he did not arrive in Kozluk at all.
7 Q. And yesterday you said that once you returned to the base, you
8 didn't see him, you didn't report to him as to what you had done and what
9 you hadn't done. Am I right in saying that?
10 A. You are right, and I didn't see him, I didn't report to him.
11 Q. Yesterday you said that Lazarevic was the one who told you what to
12 do, Lazarevic was the one who let you go upon the work was completed, and
13 Lazarevic is the commander of the road platoon. Am I right in saying
15 A. Yes, you're right.
16 Q. You are a member of the road platoon of the engineering company of
17 the Zvornik Brigade. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. Your immediate superior is Damjan Lazarevic. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, he was my platoon commander.
21 Q. To Ms. Davis' question, you said yesterday that when the company
22 commander was absent, Damjan Lazarevic was subordinate to Dragan Jokic.
23 Is that true?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What does that mean? What did you mean when you say subordinate
1 to? Or maybe I should break this question in two. Am I right in saying
2 that the company commander is the one who commands the company?
3 A. Yes, you're right.
4 Q. Am I right in saying that during these days, that is, on the 14th
5 and the 15th, in the command of the engineering company, there was also
6 Slavko Bogicevic, whom you refer to as a moralist?
7 A. Yes. I know he was there on the 14th. I don't remember whether
8 he was there on the 15th.
9 Q. In principle, according to the principle of unity of command, to
10 whom is the company of a platoon subordinated?
11 A. To the company commander.
12 Q. Yes. Am I right in saying, because we have had testimony to this
13 effect, that a company commander is subordinate to the chief of staff of
14 the Zvornik Brigade?
15 A. I couldn't tell you that.
16 Q. Yes, I understand. You don't have a military education, so it's
17 quite clear to me that you cannot speak about the rules regulating that
18 issue; however, I was leading up to the following question. Let me just
19 find the word you used. He was subordinated you said. What did this mean
20 when you said it? What did you mean by it when the company commander is
22 A. When the company commander is absent, then he transmitted our
23 orders to us and told us what we were to do; that's what I meant to say.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic. So he is not the one who actually gives
25 the orders, but he only transmits the orders because the company commander
1 is temporarily absent?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Thank you. I will finish with one final question. Could you
4 please help us to clarify what you mean when you say a moralist in a
5 company, or rather, what was Slavko Bogicevic's duties in July 1995?
6 A. Well, sometimes he was on duty in the barracks, sometimes he stood
7 in for the company commander, and so on.
8 Q. So Slavko Bogicevic was the one who stood in for the company
9 commander when he was absent?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic. Yesterday some documents were shown to
12 you and you spoke very convincingly about them. I only wanted to confirm
13 my understanding of what follows from your testimony. The document giving
14 you instructions to use the Skip Torpedo was shown to you, your work
15 order, that is. And according to this document, on the 14th of July, the
16 Skip was in Orahovac. You remember that. Am I right in saying that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You said that on the 14th, when you left Orahovac in the
19 afternoon -- or rather, when you went to the base from Snagovo, you did
20 not go to Orahovac?
21 A. No, I didn't go to Orahovac.
22 Q. And let me just finish this topic, the machine, the Torpedo, did
23 it go to Orahovac? Did somebody else drive it to Orahovac?
24 A. No, no. It didn't go to Orahovac.
25 Q. And you explained to us that this was probably drawn up in order
1 to justify the fuel used. Is this correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The other document that was shown to you was the travel order for
4 the backhoe excavator, and you replied that this backhoe excavator was a
5 machine, which on that day, the 14th, or rather, the 15th of July, was not
6 used because it had broken down. Is this correct?
7 A. Yes, it's correct.
8 Q. We have information that the machine BGH-700, the backhoe
9 excavator and Cvijetin Ristanovic testified to this that on the 14th and
10 15th, it went to Orahovac. Am I right in saying that he was not referring
11 to the same machine, that there were two backhoe excavators, one of which
12 did go to Orahovac, and the other one didn't go but remained in the
13 command because the machine had broken down?
14 A. I don't know. I wasn't there when the backhoe excavator left for
15 Orahovac. I wasn't in the unit at the time, so I don't know.
16 Q. And the excavator that had broken down, where was it on the 14th
17 and the 15th? Where was it parked, so to say?
18 A. In Josanica.
19 Q. When you say "Josanica," you're referring to the village of
20 Josanica where there is a quarry?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So that if the travel order for this excavator says that it worked
23 in Orahovac or in Petkovci, according to you this is not correct because
24 the machine had broken down and it was actually in Josanica. Is this
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, would you help me clarify the situation with regard
3 to the machines. Can you remember how many machines there were in good
4 working order in the engineering unit at the time. Is it true that there
5 was the Skip Torpedo and the BGH-700?
6 A. I know about the Torpedo, but as for the BGH-700, I don't know
7 whether it was in the engineers' unit at the time or not.
8 Q. And can you help us by saying how many engineers' members there
9 were who were able to drive these machines on the 14th and 15th, apart
10 from you, Miladinovic, and Ristanovic. Was anyone else there in the unit
11 who was able to drive those machines?
12 A. No, there wasn't.
13 Q. Yesterday you said that all the other construction machines were
14 mobilised according to need from the brigade command when there was a job
15 to be done. Is this correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And now to go back to the 15th of July, which according to us was
18 a Saturday, and you testified that on that day you were in the command of
19 the engineers' company and that you did not have any specific tasks to
20 perform. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You also said that as far as you can remember, on that day, apart
23 from you, Vojislav Sekanic was in the engineers' unit and a guard. Do you
24 remember that?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Is that how it was?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I'm asking you all this for the following reason: Mr. Mitrovic,
4 did you see or hear anyone - I don't know who - from the engineers'
5 company who on that morning or on that day, the 15th of July, could have
6 taken a machine, any machine, and go to Petkovci to the dam there and work
7 on burials?
8 A. There was no machine there that someone could take.
9 Q. So I'm right in saying that on the 15th, there were neither
10 machines nor machine operators in the unit who could have gone to Petkovci
11 and work on the burials?
12 A. There was no other machine operator, apart from me in the unit.
13 There was only myself.
14 Q. After this, that is, after the 15th of July, did you hear from any
15 of your colleagues from the engineers' company that they had been at
16 Petkovci and worked on burials on the 15th of July?
17 A. No, no. I didn't hear anyone say that.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic. I just wanted to put one other question
19 to you. As a rule, what does the morning look like in the engineers'
20 company? Am I right that you line up, that your duties are assigned to
21 you, as is usual?
22 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Am I right in saying that when you're lined up, the flag is
24 raised, your commands are read out to you. This is done by the company
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you remember whether on the 15th in the morning, this was the
3 procedure that was followed?
4 A. No, no, it wasn't.
5 Q. Why, because there were no soldiers around; is that the reason?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ristanovic told us the same thing. I just wanted
8 to check this. If I'm correct, 15 of you, according to the order that
9 arrived from the brigade that Dragan transmitted, were to go to Snagovo
10 and be on the frontline. Is this correct?
11 A. Yes, it's correct.
12 Q. And the commander of the engineers' company, Dragan Jokic, or
13 Jevtic was with you all this time?
14 A. Yes, he was.
15 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, I would now like to go back to the 16th and to the
16 ULT-220. You said that this machine did not belong to the engineers'
17 company, that it was owned by the quarry. Is this correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Rade Boskovic came to Kozluk with this machine. Is this correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you assist me with this. Do you remember whether
22 Rade Boskovic on that day was wearing civilian clothes or a military
24 A. I don't remember, but I think he was wearing civilian clothes.
25 Q. We have lists here of the members of the engineers' company, and
1 that's why I want to ask you the following: Am I right in saying that
2 Rade Boskovic at that time, that is, mid-July, was not a member of the
3 engineers' company and that he had a work obligation in the quarry?
4 A. I think he -- yes, I think he had a work obligation in the quarry.
5 Q. And this could be the reason why he arrived in civilian clothes,
6 rather than a military uniform. Isn't that so?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. Am I right in saying that the call-up of military conscripts, such
9 as Rade Boskovic, Vojislav Sekanic, or anybody else was carried out by the
10 brigade command through the Ministry of Defence and this could not be done
11 just by someone going and saying, I'm mobilising the soldier or this
12 employee, this worker?
13 A. I don't know what the procedure is, but I think it goes through
14 the brigade command.
15 Q. Precisely so. When you say it goes through the brigade command,
16 you're referring both to soldiers and to equipment?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You will agree with me that there was a certain procedure to be
19 followed, that's at least what we know, that someone could not walk into a
20 company and say: I'm taking this machine because I need it for the army,
21 for the military. There has to be a procedure that's followed. Is this
23 A. Yes, I think that's correct.
24 Q. And I just wanted to put a few questions to you with respect to
25 the reburials, the count in the indictment that refers to the reburials.
1 Did you hear that in the period of August and October 1995, there were
2 reburials of these, as we call them, primary grave sites or burial sites?
3 A. No, I didn't hear that.
4 Q. I know that you spoke of this in your interview, but we didn't
5 hear about this yesterday. So I just wanted you to assist us by telling
6 us where you were in this period, August, September, and October 1995.
7 What were you doing at that time?
8 A. I can't remember now what we did or where.
9 Q. Did any of you in that period ask to go and work on the reburials?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And finally, did you hear any one of the members of the engineers'
12 company, your colleagues, or any equipment take part in this activity of
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Will you agree with me that as far as you know personally, you
16 personally did not take part in any activity connected with reburials?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic. And one last question. Since when have
19 you known Dragan Jokic?
20 A. Since 1992, when he came to my house to see about the machine, to
21 have me go to the engineers' unit.
22 Q. Speaking of 1992, yesterday I understood you to say that at the
23 beginning of the wartime events, you were a member of the military police?
24 A. Yes, I was.
25 Q. Do you remember in 1992 when a sabotage group or an infiltrated
1 group in the area of Klisa took part in fighting in which there were
2 casualties on both the Serb and Bosnian side?
3 A. I remember.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Davis.
5 MS. DAVIS: I believe the witness testified very briefly about
6 this yesterday, but I'm not sure what the relevance is for further
7 questioning on this. It's not relevant to the case and the indictment.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 What's the relevance of this question?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall bring it to an end with a
11 question about the character of Dragan Jokic and the activities that he
12 had in the burial of the bodies that had been left behind after this
13 operation. So this is the relevance of that question.
14 JUDGE LIU: You may try.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Mitrovic, let's bring this to an end. You said that you were
17 aware of the fact that there were victims on both sides. Are you aware of
18 the fact that at that time Captain Jokic was in charge of the action of
19 pulling out the bodies of the fallen Bosniaks and that in accordance with
20 the Geneva Conventions he carried out the handover of the bodies in -- to
21 the commander of the other side, Mr. Semso Omerovic [phoen]. And that was
22 done through an exchange?
23 A. I'm not aware of that.
24 Q. You said you've known Dragan since 1992. What can you tell us
25 about him? What kind of a person he is, what kind of an officer he was.
1 A. To my mind, he was an a good man. We cooperated well. He was not
2 a bad man at all at that time.
3 Q. In your contacts with him, did you notice or feel any nationalism,
4 religious or ethnic intolerance, or things like that?
5 A. No, I didn't notice any such thing.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And this was my last question. I
7 have no further questions and I would like to thank you, Your Honours, and
8 the witness.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 Any redirect? Ms. Davis?
11 MS. DAVIS: Very briefly, Your Honour.
12 Re-examined by Ms. Davis:
13 Q. Witness, you were just asked a few moments ago about Mr. Jokic's
14 involvement in the burial of -- or in the pulling out bodies of fallen
15 Bosniaks in 1992 and you were asked whether the Geneva Convention was
16 followed in that process. Can I ask you, in your instructions from
17 Mr. Lazarevic regarding covering up the bodies at Kozluk, whether anyone
18 present there checked the bodies there to see if anyone was still alive.
19 A. I don't know whether that was checked, but I believe that nobody
20 was alive because there was already the smell of bodies and I don't think
21 that there was anybody alive out there.
22 Q. And in your presence, nobody checked the bodies to see if anyone
23 was alive?
24 A. Nobody did.
25 Q. In your presence, did anyone check the bodies for identification
2 A. Not while I was there, no.
3 Q. In your presence, were any bodies put into body bags?
4 A. No, I didn't notice that.
5 Q. In your presence, was there any effort to register the victims?
6 A. No, nobody did that.
7 Q. And to your knowledge, were the bodies that you were involved in
8 covering up at Kozluk ever turned over to the Army of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina or to any Muslim authorities?
10 A. I don't know.
11 MS. DAVIS: I have no further questions. Thank you.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage, are there any documents to
13 tender? Ms. Davis?
14 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, all of the documents that we have shown
15 to this witness have been previously admitted into evidence, so we don't
16 have anything to tender.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
18 Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no documents to tender at
20 this point, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
22 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
23 your evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you out
24 of this courtroom. We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
1 [Witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage, there is a housekeeping matter to
3 deal with. That is, last week we asked the parties, especially the
4 Defence counsel, to raise any objections to the admission of Mr. Butler's
5 evidence -- I mean that evidence introduced through Mr. Butler's
6 testimony. The deadline was this Monday, and up until now we have
7 received no objections except some intercepts raised by Ms. Sinatra orally
8 last week. So we believe that this Bench is in the position to make a
9 decision that that evidence introduced through Mr. Butler's testimony will
10 be admitted into the evidence, except the intercepts. And we reserve the
11 right to deal with it at a later stage. It is so decided.
12 Well, maybe somebody from the Prosecution team could brief us
13 about the next witness. Yes.
14 MR. WAESPI: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. This
15 will be a witness who has only one protective measure, that I think like
16 the previous ones, image distortion. But just for the sake of caution, I
17 would like to ask him, again in your presence, whether he's fine that his
18 name be identified to the public. He said he's fine with it, but I think
19 it's easier, it's better, if I do this in your presence.
20 JUDGE LIU: Have you explained to this witness about the
21 protective measures? We find it very strange.
22 MR. WAESPI: Yes, we did it, Mr. President. And he just says he
23 does not want that people on TV or in the public gallery see his face.
24 But he says, my name is fine, I want to testify under my full name.
25 That's what he says.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
2 Could we have the witness, please.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
7 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: MARKO MILOSEVIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter].
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
13 Yes, Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.
14 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Examined by Mr. Waespi:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Do you remember that we met yesterday in my office, in fact, on
19 the previous day as well, and you were advised of your right to remain
20 silent and to have a lawyer present. Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And you waived these rights, and we discussed your evidence
23 without the presence of a lawyer. Is that correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And you also told us that you would be willing to testify today in
1 this courtroom under these conditions. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So you're ready to proceed and answer questions without the
4 presence of a lawyer. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, you also told me that you wanted your image to be distorted,
7 but that you're fine that your name be known to the public. Can you
8 confirm that today.
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 Q. All right. Let me then start with a few personal details. Can
11 you state for the record your full name, please.
12 A. Marko Milosevic.
13 Q. Do you have a nickname?
14 A. Majo.
15 Q. And when were you born and where?
16 A. I was born on the 30th March, 1964, in Lupoglavo village, Kladanj
18 Q. And can you briefly tell us your education. Do you have a
19 university degree?
20 A. I graduated from the university of Tuzla. I majored in the
21 protection at work. So I'm an engineer of protection at work and in
22 environmental protection.
23 Q. And what's your current occupation?
24 A. I don't understand.
25 Q. I'm sorry. Do you have a job?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And what would that be?
3 A. I worked in the electrical distribution as an anti-fire protection
4 officer and an officer for protection at work.
5 Q. And what are you doing currently?
6 A. I'm now testifying.
7 Q. Yes. I understand that. Sorry for my stupid question. What's
8 your current occupation? Work-related, your current occupation,
10 A. I am an officer for the protection at work and anti-fire
11 protection at the company called electrical distribution in Zvornik.
12 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
13 Let me briefly ask you about your military career. I understand
14 you had some education, some training, with the JNA. Is that correct?
15 A. I served in the army in 1983, that was my compulsory military
16 obligation, and I was in the army for 12 months in Sarajevo. That was the
17 Yugoslav army.
18 Q. Did you have a rank when you left?
19 A. When I left, I was a lance corporal.
20 Q. Now, we will later talk about 1995, but let me just ask you
21 briefly about the prior years. In 1993 or 1994, did you have a brief
22 assignment as an assistant commander for security?
23 A. Yes. For some six or seven months in the 1st Battalion that was.
24 Q. And that would be the 1st Battalion of which brigade?
25 A. The Zvornik Brigade.
1 Q. Now let me turn to 1995. Were you in the army as well in that
3 A. In March -- from March to March, I had a work obligation in the
4 company Glinica Birac in Zvornik.
5 Q. And in terms of army, did you have a function in the army in 1995?
6 A. I was, again, mobilised in 1995 in March, and I was assistant
7 commander of the 6th Infantry Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade. That was
8 my assignment.
9 Q. And who appointed you to this position?
10 A. The brigade command.
11 Q. And can you tell us who that was.
12 A. Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.
13 Q. Now, as a deputy brigade commander, who was your commander --
14 sorry, deputy battalion commander, who was your battalion commander?
15 A. My commander was Captain Ostoja Stanisic.
16 Q. Now, can you tell us what your duties were as a deputy battalion
18 A. My duty as a deputy battalion commander was see to the
19 communications in the battalion; that means I was in charge of the
20 communication with the units on the frontline and the command of the
21 brigade. And I also assisted the battalion commander with other things.
22 Q. Now, who would be in command of the battalion in the absence of
23 your commander, Mr. Stanisic?
24 A. In the absence of the battalion commander, it would be the deputy
25 commander, and that is only in the absence of the commander.
1 Q. And that would be yourself?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were there long absences of your battalion commander while you
4 were his deputy?
5 A. No. Only if he went home to rest for a day if the situation in
6 the Zvornik Brigade was calm.
7 Q. Now, I would like you to show the Judges or explain to the Judges
8 a few of the locations in that area where you were stationed. If you,
9 please, could be shown an exhibit that's a map of Eastern Bosnia with
10 battalion positions. And I don't think it has a number yet. Yes, it's
11 been assigned exhibit P668.
12 Now, if you could take a moment for yourself and just look at the
13 map, and then my first question would be if you could show us the city of
14 Zvornik. Perhaps if the map could be moved up a little bit, the other way
15 around. Yes, thanks. To the city of Zvornik again.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. You are pointing to the bottom of the map in the middle?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. And now can you tell us where the positions of your
20 battalion were, and if you could start with the command post, please.
21 A. The command post of the 6th Battalion was in Petkovci, in the old
22 school there.
23 Q. And I believe you have -- do you recognise who did the markings on
24 this map?
25 A. I did it myself.
1 Q. So you just mentioned where the command post was, and I believe
2 you had indicated that spot where there is an A. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, letter A. Yes.
4 Q. And you mentioned that it's in Petkovci, and you said it's the old
5 school. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, can you tell us where the forward command post was, if you
8 had any of that kind.
9 A. The forward command post was in a different part marked by letter
11 Q. And can you tell us roughly the distance between those two command
13 A. Some 2 and a half to 3 kilometres.
14 Q. How many companies did your battalion have at that time in July
16 A. There were four infantry companies.
17 Q. Can you tell us how they were allocated in your area.
18 A. The first company was deployed on the right flank, and it bordered
19 on the Sapna river. And then the second company is up here. The third
20 company and the fourth company are next to the Bajkovac river.
21 Q. And I see a yellow line. Do you know what that yellow line
23 A. The yellow line indicates the area of our defence, the defence of
24 the 6th Battalion.
25 Q. Thanks. And you just indicated the location of those companies,
1 and I believe you started with the first company on the right side, and
2 then went on to the second and third company. And the fourth company
3 would be on the left side of your defence line?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, can you tell us who your neighbours were, and I'm asking
6 about battalions.
7 A. Our right-hand side neighbour was, I believe, the 3rd Battalion,
8 yes. And on the left-hand side on the left flank, there was the 4th
9 Infantry Battalion.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Milosevic. I have a couple more questions about
11 the backdrop of these events. How many members -- how many soldiers did
12 this 6th Battalion have in July 1995?
13 A. I couldn't give you the exact number, but there were some 400
14 troops, together with the reserve battalion.
15 Q. So when you say "reserve battalion," you had four normal
16 battalions and one reserve battalion?
17 A. I didn't say that.
18 Q. Okay. Can you explain what you meant by reserve battalion.
19 A. I said that the battalion had 400 troops, together with the
20 command and the rear of the battalion, not the reserve, the rear of the
22 Q. Thank you very much for this clarification.
23 A. You're welcome.
24 Q. Now, July 1995, where did you spend your time when you were on
1 A. In the command of the 6th Battalion in Petkovci.
2 Q. Now, you told us that you were assigned to be in charge of
3 communications. Can you briefly tell us what means of communication you
4 had available in your battalion and up to the brigade.
5 A. We had the three systems of communications in the battalion. We
6 had the civilian connection, then we had a wire communication, and a radio
8 Q. Did these communication means work, or were there times when you
9 couldn't communicate with each other or up to the brigade?
10 A. They mostly worked. Only sometimes where it happened that there
11 was no communication, but one of these means of communication were always
13 Q. Now, I would like to ask you about an incident in 1993 or 1994
14 when a Muslim was taken prisoner. Can you explain to us what happened,
15 who was involved in that.
16 A. This happened in 1993 or 1994, I don't know exactly when, but it
17 was springtime. A Muslim, a member of a Muslim unit, strayed amongst our
18 soldiers. He was drunk, and he was taken by our soldiers on the line.
19 Then they brought him to the battalion command.
20 Q. And what did you do with him at the battalion command?
21 A. We called the military police to the brigade to take him over and
22 to take him to the brigade command.
23 Q. Did you question him at the battalion command?
24 A. Yes. We asked him a few things, but most of the questioning took
25 place in the brigade command.
1 Q. Was that the procedure that you had implemented to deal with
2 Muslim prisoners?
3 A. I believe so.
4 Q. Now, let me take you to July 1995. How were you made aware that
5 the enclave of Srebrenica fell?
6 A. Well, we heard about it on the radio that Vlasenica [as
7 interpreted] had fallen. It was on the news on the radio, and probably
8 people from the brigade knew about it, but I can't remember now.
9 Q. Did people from your battalion, let me ask you about your
10 battalion, have troops in Srebrenica?
11 A. We had about 90 soldiers who were active in Srebrenica.
12 Q. And do you remember who was in charge of those troops?
13 A. It was a man who was my neighbour, Slavisa Marjanovic. He was the
14 commander of the platoon that was at Srebrenica.
15 Q. And this was the platoon that was formed out of your 6th
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you said just a minute ago in response to my question about
19 how you were made aware that the enclave of Srebrenica fell, you said, or
20 least that's what's written in the English version of the transcript,
21 that, and I quote: "We heard about it on the radio that Vlasenica had
22 fallen." Did you mean Vlasenica?
23 A. No, I meant Srebrenica.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 A. You're welcome.
1 MR. WAESPI: Now, I believe, Mr. President. I don't know if you
2 want a break now. We started five minutes later, but perhaps it's easier
3 for everybody to get ...
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll resume at 4.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi, please continue.
8 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Milosevic, let me turn to the 14th of July. Do you remember a
10 phone call you had received on that day?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And who called you?
13 A. The duty officer from the brigade.
14 Q. From which brigade?
15 A. The Zvornik Brigade.
16 Q. And do you remember at what time you received that phone call?
17 A. It was between 11.00 and 12.00.
18 Q. And where were you when you received that phone call?
19 A. In the battalion command.
20 Q. And what did the duty officer of the Zvornik Brigade tell you?
21 A. He told me that in about two hours, Muslim prisoners would arrive
22 from Srebrenica, and they would be accommodated in the primary school in
24 Q. Now, you told us before the break that your command was stationed
25 at the primary school. Can you tell us, are there two primary schools in
2 A. We were in the old school.
3 Q. And the prisoners would be brought to which school then?
4 A. The new school.
5 Q. Now, why did you take this phone call?
6 A. My commander, Ostoja Stanisic, took about 30 soldiers from our
7 battalion to the command of the Zvornik Brigade, and they were to be sent
8 to Snagovo.
9 Q. Now, which line did you get this phone call? Was it the public
10 line? A land line? A secure line? Over radio? Can you tell us what you
12 A. It was the wire communication line, an inductor wire.
13 Q. Can you explain to the Judges what an inductor wire is.
14 A. It's a wire connection through which we had communications with
15 the brigade. There was an inductor in the command, and this was connected
16 to the duty officer in the battalion. And he switched the line over to
18 Q. Was it possible to intercept this line of communication?
19 A. Only if the line was cut, but it was functioning at the time.
20 Q. Now, by intercepting, I mean was it possible for somebody else,
21 for instance your enemy, to listen to this conversation you had with the
22 duty officer?
23 A. I don't know that.
24 Q. Now, when you received that information, what were you thinking?
25 What were your thoughts about these prisoners?
1 A. Personally I thought they would be locked up and that after a
2 certain period of time they would be exchanged. That was what I thought.
3 Q. Now, you talked about this school, the new school. What was its
4 use? Did you use it? Did your battalion use it for any purpose?
5 A. From time to time, intervention platoons were put up there, they
6 were quartered in the school, and they assisted the battalion if the
7 battalion area was attacked or if there were indicia that the Muslims
8 might attack the area.
9 Q. Now, did you keep a log -- did you or somebody else keep a log of
10 incoming phone calls from the brigade?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. Now, you said that your commander was away in Zvornik bringing
13 troops to the brigade. Now, did you inform him about the phone call you
15 A. Yes, I did, when he got back to the battalion.
16 Q. And how long after the phone call was that?
17 A. Two, or two and a half hours, something like that.
18 Q. Now, what happened next in relation to these prisoners? Did they
20 A. They arrived -- I don't know at exactly what time, because in the
21 afternoon I went down to the primary school -- not to the school itself,
22 but the crossroads, because Commander Ostoja Stanisic sent me there after
23 the duty officer from the brigade asked that we find a certain
24 Colonel Beara, whom I did not know, and Dragan Nikolic was supposed to be
25 with him.
1 Q. Now, do you know why your battalion commander told you to go to
2 find Beara? Did he tell you that?
3 A. Yes, yes. After talking to the duty officer from the brigade, he
4 told me that they said we should find him and that he should report to the
5 command of the Zvornik Brigade, that he should call them, that is.
6 Q. So are you saying there was a second phone call with the duty
7 officer that Mr. Stanisic talked to the duty officer of the brigade? Is
8 that what you are saying?
9 A. Yes. Yes, yes. Stanisic did.
10 Q. Now, tell me, since you also talked to the duty officer of the
11 Zvornik Brigade, did you know at that time who the duty officer was of the
12 Zvornik Brigade?
13 A. I don't remember. I didn't know exactly, because there were
14 officers who took turns, and I don't know which of them it was.
15 Q. When you didn't know exactly, did you make a guess at that time
16 who it could have been?
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object. It calls for
18 speculation. I think that if you go back to his previous question, he
19 received the answer. Now he's asking the gentleman if he could have
20 guessed or if he could guess, so I would object.
21 JUDGE LIU: I think this kind of question is not proper. You
22 should not invite the witness to speculate.
23 MR. WAESPI: Certainly, Mr. President.
24 Q. Did you, in fact, go to the school of the -- of Petkovci, as
25 ordered by your battalion commander?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you find Beara, as you were told to do so?
3 A. I found Beara at the crossroads on the main road, together with
4 Drago Nikolic and a few military policemen.
5 Q. Now, how far away from your command headquarters was the new
7 A. About 600 metres.
8 Q. And how did you go there?
9 A. On foot.
10 Q. You told us that you met a person called Nikolic. Can you tell us
11 who this Nikolic was.
12 A. He was the assistant commander for security in the
13 Zvornik Brigade.
14 Q. Now, whom did you address? Did you address Beara or did you
15 address Nikolic when you arrived there?
16 A. I didn't know Beara personally, so I addressed Drago Nikolic, and
17 he told me that this was indeed Beara. I greeted him, and then I
18 transmitted the message to him.
19 Q. What did you tell him?
20 A. I told him that they had called from the brigade and that he
21 should call them back urgently.
22 Q. Can you describe to the Trial Chamber how Beara looked. What was
23 he wearing?
24 A. I can't be certain, but he had a camouflage uniform. He was about
25 60 years old with grey hair.
1 Q. Did he respond anything?
2 A. He didn't say anything to me.
3 Q. Now, you described to us what you saw when you arrived at that
4 crossroad, a few military policemen you told us. Do you know from which
5 military brigade they were?
6 A. I didn't know them personally. I don't know what brigade they
7 were from.
8 Q. Now, did you see -- when you were at that crossroad, did you see
9 the new school as well where the prisoners were supposed to be held?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How far away was it from where you were standing?
12 A. Some 60 or 70 metres, not more.
13 Q. Do you know whether the prisoners had arrived at that time?
14 A. I saw the troops who were providing security for the school, so I
15 suppose that the prisoners had already been there, in the school.
16 Q. And by "troops," what do you mean? Are these the military
17 policemen you had described earlier?
18 A. Soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms, different uniforms. I
19 didn't know any of them personally.
20 Q. And by "different," do you mean different from the policemen you
21 have described?
22 A. Some wore camouflage uniforms, some wore olive-drab uniforms, like
23 the former JNA used to wear.
24 Q. Did you know from which unit they were?
25 A. I don't.
1 Q. Did you see any vehicles in that area, around the school and the
3 A. On the road, there were a few trucks and a few buses that drove
4 the Muslims. I don't know exactly how many.
5 Q. Now, what did you do next? Did you return to your headquarters?
6 A. I returned to the battalion command immediately, immediately after
7 having conveyed the message to Mr. Beara.
8 Q. And what did you do there at the headquarters?
9 A. I informed Commander Stanisic that I had conveyed the message and
10 that Colonel Beara was now aware of the fact that he was to call back the
11 command of the Zvornik Brigade immediately.
12 Q. Do you know what your commander, Mr. Stanisic, did after you told
13 him that?
14 A. He let the brigade know that the colonel had been informed.
15 Q. Do you know whom in the brigade he called?
16 A. It was probably the duty officer.
17 Q. Now, what were you doing that evening? We are still on the 14th
18 of July, 1995.
19 A. I was in the battalion command.
20 Q. Now, did you hear any gunfire that evening?
21 A. Yes. Late in the afternoon, there were gun shots from the
22 direction of the school; that's what we heard.
23 Q. Now, since that was only 5, 600 metres away from your command
24 post, did you or your commander or anybody else do something in relation
25 to these gunfires?
1 A. Since the commander was there, I was not duty-bound to do
2 anything. And I don't remember that the commander did anything.
3 Q. Weren't you worried, hearing gunfire so close to your
5 A. I can't remember.
6 Q. Did you discuss the gunfire or, indeed, the prisoner issue with
7 your commander, any, in that evening?
8 A. We probably did, but I don't remember the conversation that took
9 place in the battalion command. We discussed quite a lot of things.
10 Q. Let me turn to the next day, 15th [Realtime transcript read in
11 error "16th"] of July, 1995. Just briefly, what were you doing on that
13 A. Early in the morning, I went, together with a few soldiers, to the
14 4th Company. I was sent there by the commander to see what was going on
15 there, because we had been informed from the line that two of our trenches
16 had been destroyed by the Muslim forces, either by mortar fire or a
17 hand-held mortar, I don't know exactly. In any case, they had been
18 destroyed and the troops had withdrawn from these trenches. I went up
19 there to inspect.
20 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Mr. Waespi, may I interrupt you for a moment. I'm
21 looking at the transcript and it says on line 19, page 36, we are still on
22 the 14th. And then next page, line 12: "Let me turn to the next day,
23 16th of July."
24 Can you clarify that.
25 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thank you very much for your observation and
1 attention, Judge Argibay.
2 Q. Witness, you just described what you were doing on the certain
3 day. Which date are you talking about?
4 A. The 15th of July, in the early morning hours.
5 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Judge Argibay.
6 Q. And thank you very much, Witness, for that clarification.
7 Where did you spend the evening of 15th July, 1995?
8 A. We were in the battalion command up to 1.00 in the night. And
9 then I, my commander, and other members of the command went to the forward
10 command post, and I went to the 4th Company that had manned these two
12 Q. So you went to the same location you have been during the previous
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why did you go there? Were you ordered to do so?
16 A. Around 10.00 or 11.00 in the evening on the 15th of July, the duty
17 officer from the brigade called and he wanted to talk to the forward
18 command post of our battalion. He wanted somebody to go there. And in
19 the meantime, the platoon commander from the 4th Company arrived and asked
20 all of us to go there because the troops were scared. And we did that
21 around 1.00 or half past 1.00 in the morning. We went to the forward
22 command post, and I myself went to the sector of the 4th Company.
23 Q. Now, where did you stay that night? I mean, where were you then
24 the following morning?
25 A. I spent the night until the morning in the sector of the
1 4th Company, in the left-most flank. I was in a trench, and together with
2 me there were two soldiers from the engineers company.
3 Q. Did you have casualties?
4 A. Yes. Early in the morning, around 7.00, I believe, a shell fell
5 into the trench where I was, killing two of our soldiers, members of the
6 VRS. One of them was a member of the engineers' company. I don't know
7 his name. I know his family name was Micic and that he was a native of
8 the area around Teslic.
9 Q. Now, in the course of that day, and we are now on the 16th of
10 July, were you yourself wounded?
11 A. I was wounded between 1.00 and 2.00 in the afternoon.
12 Q. And how did that come about?
13 A. I was on the left flank of the 4th Company. I and a few other
14 soldiers from that company waited for the military police and the sick and
15 wounded who were being pulled out from the command of the 4th Battalion,
16 because they had come under heavy fire of the Muslim forces from both
17 sides. We waited for them where our Browning was, and some 10 or 15
18 minutes later, as we were returning to our reserve positions where the
19 line used to be, that is what I was wounded, together with seven or our
20 soldiers and also two or three of our soldiers were killed.
21 Q. Of what nature were your wounds?
22 A. I was wounded in my -- both lower extremities. I was wounded in
23 both legs.
24 Q. Did you get treatment?
25 A. When I was wounded, my soldiers carried me down to Petkovci. I
1 couldn't walk from there. I was transported to the Zenica hospital where
2 I was hospitalised for seven, eight, or nine days, I don't remember
3 exactly for how long.
4 Q. Reading the transcript it says Zenica hospital. Were you treated
5 at the Zenica hospital?
6 A. No, it was in Zvornik.
7 Q. Now, while in the hospital, did you hear what happened to the
8 prisoners which you were concerned with in the new Petkovci school?
9 A. While I was in the hospital, some two or three days later I heard
10 that all the prisoners who were in the school had been killed.
11 Q. Do you remember who told you that?
12 A. People came to visit me, soldiers, my family, friends, and my
13 commander Ostoja Stanisic also came. So I really can't remember who it
14 was who told me that.
15 Q. Do you know where the prisoners were executed?
16 A. The story was they were killed on the red mud [Realtime transcript
17 read in error "road"].
18 Q. Do you remember how far the red dam, as you call it if I correctly
19 understood you, how far away that dam is from the new school in Petkovci?
20 A. I can't tell you exactly, but since I lived in Lupe and Djulici,
21 the dam could be seen from my house and I believe that it was a kilometre
22 away from my house and some 2 kilometres away from Petkovci. I don't know
23 exactly how far it was.
24 Q. In the transcript it says something about a road. I believe you
25 said they were killed by a dam. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, I said that they were killed by the dam.
2 Q. Now, you said you were a number of days in the hospital. Did you
3 eventually return to your battalion?
4 A. Some ten days later, I was discharged. And after that, I received
5 shots and I had to go back to the hospital for my wounds to be dressed.
6 So I didn't return immediately to my battalion.
7 Q. When did you eventually return to the battalion? Do you remember
9 A. It was around the 10th of August. I can't remember exactly when
10 it was.
11 Q. Now, did your battalion or the brigade ever investigate into the
12 killings of these prisoners at the -- in the Petkovci area?
13 A. I don't remember. I don't know if there was any investigation
14 into that matter.
15 Q. Were you personally, apart from talking to the investigators from
16 this Tribunal, were you ever interviewed, yourself, in relation to those
17 events, either by the army authorities or civilian local authorities?
18 A. No, nobody ever questioned me, save for the OTP in Banja Luka.
19 Q. Are you aware of whether anybody from the VRS or from the police
20 or whoever was punished by military authorities or civilian authorities,
21 local authorities, because of these events?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Now, did you hear anything about reburials, meaning that bodies
24 were taken out of mass graves in the area you were present?
25 A. After some time, people were talking -- and I don't know who it
1 was, whether it was the army, the civilians, the locals, I don't know who
2 was talking. But there were stories.
3 Q. Can you tell us in more detail, if you can. I don't know what
4 these stories were.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to ask if I could
7 please object at this time. The questions are such that: Have you heard?
8 What were the stories going around? I think in order to keep the record
9 clean, we have the witness here who can testify about his personal
10 knowledge about what took place. But: Have you heard? We don't know
11 what period of time he heard about this. Was it 1996, was it 1997? I
12 think this is so unspecific and hearsay upon hearsay -- and we don't even
13 know where the hearsay is coming from or the time period that he's talking
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the time period is quite clear, and this
16 witness is clearly saying that he heard some stories about this. I don't
17 think there is any problem. As you understand that the hearsay evidence
18 is still admissible in this courtroom.
19 You may proceed.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Can you tell us what these stories said.
22 A. I can't remember exactly. I only know that people who were killed
23 were reburied, but I don't know where. And to be honest, I wasn't
24 interested in knowing.
25 Q. Just a couple more questions before we finish. Do you know
1 Dragan Jokic?
2 A. Yes, I do. I know him.
3 Q. Back in July 1995, what was his function?
4 A. I believe that he was the commander of the engineers' unit company
5 I don't know what formation it was.
6 Q. Was that part of a brigade?
7 A. You mean the company or the battalion or what?
8 Q. You just told us that he was the commander of the engineers' unit
9 company, and I'm asking you whether this company was part of a specific
11 A. The Zvornik Brigade.
12 Q. Do you know him well, Mr. Jokic?
13 A. Yes. I don't know him that well. We didn't have close contacts.
14 I would see him in the brigade, but we didn't have any common points when
15 it came to the troops, that is, his troops and my troops.
16 Q. Do you know Dragan Jevtic?
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.
18 MR. WAESPI:
19 Q. Could you please repeat your answer, the interpreters couldn't
20 hear you.
21 A. What answer is that? Dragan Jevtic you mean? I know
22 Dragan Jevtic.
23 Q. Yes. And what was his function back in July 1995?
24 A. I really don't know.
25 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
2 Any cross-examination? Mr. Karnavas?
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, Your Honours, this witness calls for
4 no cross-examination.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
6 Mr. Stojanovic, your cross-examination, please.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll
8 just try to put a few questions in view of the fact that this witness did
9 not mention Dragan Jokic, apart from the last part of this testimony, so I
10 would like to clarify this misunderstanding.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, witness?
13 A. Good day.
14 Q. I just wanted to attempt to clarify the answer you gave before the
15 last one. When asked by the Prosecutor as to whether you knew what Dragan
16 Jokic's duty was, you said that he was the commander of a company or
17 battalion of engineers in the Zvornik Brigade. Am I right?
18 A. What duty he performed and what his place was in the chain of
19 command, I don't know. Whether he was the commander of the chief of the
20 engineers' unit, I'm not sure, but it was the entire engineers' unit.
21 Q. I will try to deal with this. The Zvornik Brigade had an
22 engineers' company in its composition. According to what we know, the
23 commander of the engineers' company was Dragan Jevtic. While Dragan Jokic
24 was the chief of the engineering branch in the command of the Zvornik
25 Brigade, Dragan Jokic was the chief and not the commander. I'm asking
1 whether I'm right.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 MR. WAESPI: I think the witness gave his answer and what counsel
4 now does is try to correct his answer. Does he have a question for him
5 or ...
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, you could ask a question
7 concerning of the position of Mr. Jokic at that time, but you cannot
8 furnish the answer in your question. Please rephrase your question.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. To be
10 quite honest, I don't understand the Prosecutor's position. With the best
11 of intentions, I am trying to clarify something that I think is not in
12 dispute. So I don't know why they had to object. If they don't care
13 about clarifying this misunderstanding, I will not continue this line of
14 questioning. Please allow me to move on.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, we'll take whatever the witness
16 told us. You know, what the witness testified in this courtroom may have
17 multipurpose. There may be evidence against your client or not, or they
18 may test about his own credibilities in the future.
19 You may proceed.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Witness, I will continue my examination, concentrating on areas of
22 interest to us. You said that sometime between 11.00 and 12.00, you
23 received a telephone call from the brigade, because the battalion
24 commander was absent at the moment from the battalion. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you said that this telephone call arrived from the duty
2 officer in the brigade?
3 A. Yes. That's what my duty officer in the battalion told me, that
4 the duty officer from the brigade was on the line.
5 Q. That's just what I wanted to ask you. Does this mean that the man
6 you talked to did not introduce himself to you?
7 A. Not as far as I can remember.
8 Q. As we are speaking the same language, please wait for the
9 interpreter to finish interpreting my question before you reply. Thank
11 You also said today that you knew Dragan Jokic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you assist us by saying whether you talked to Dragan Jokic on
14 that occasion?
15 A. I've already said that it was the duty officer from the brigade.
16 And who the duty officer was, I really don't know.
17 Q. I understand you don't even know whether it was the duty officer.
18 This was what your duty officer in the battalion told you. Isn't that
20 A. Yes, but who was actually on duty on that day, I really don't
22 Q. Are you aware that the brigade command in mid-July 1995 had its
23 forward command post?
24 A. Yes, I am.
25 Q. Do you know where this forward command post of the brigade was?
1 A. As far as I know, the forward command post of the brigade was in
2 Kitovnice and the location, the precise location, I don't know, but it was
3 in the village of Kitovnice or Parlog.
4 Q. Were there duty officers at the forward command post at the time,
5 in view of the combat situation?
6 A. You mean from the brigade?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. I don't know that.
9 Q. Did you have any communication with the forward command post?
10 A. You mean from the battalion?
11 Q. Specifically, was there a line of communication between the
12 forward command post and the battalion?
13 A. Yes, I think there was.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
15 MR. WAESPI: I would just like to clarify. The witness had asked
16 whether he meant the forward command post of the battalion or from the
17 brigade. And at least on the transcript it has not been clarified, so I'm
18 not sure which communication between him and the forward command post is
19 meant now. The forward command post of the brigade or the battalion.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's not very clear in the transcript.
21 Mr. Stojanovic, would you please ask some questions to clarify
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. My question was: In this period, was there a line of
25 communication between the brigade forward command post and the battalion?
1 A. There was, because from the forward command post they had
2 communications with the brigade and through there to the battalion command
3 or the command of all the battalions.
4 Q. That's precisely why I asked this question. At the time when your
5 duty officer in the battalion said: You have the duty officer from the
6 brigade on the line, is it possible for this information to go from the
7 duty officer at the forward command post through the brigade to the
9 A. I don't know whether it's possible or not. I was told that it was
10 the duty officer from the brigade who was calling, probably whoever was on
11 duty at the brigade would know this. I don't know.
12 Q. I understand that you don't know this. You couldn't have known,
13 but I ask you: In view of what you said at the beginning, that as the
14 deputy commander you had information of communication lines -- about
15 communication lines. My question is: Would you allow for such a
16 possibility as regards the system of communication?
17 A. I've already said that in the battalion I took care of the
18 communication line, making sure it was operational, making sure that we
19 had good communications with the companies at the frontline and with the
20 brigade command.
21 Q. I will just repeat my question once again. Is it possible, and
22 please say yes or no or I don't know, that a call should come from the
23 duty officer at the forward command post through the duty communications
24 officer in the brigade to the duty communications officer in your
25 battalion. Is that possible?
1 A. I'm not sure. I don't know. Perhaps yes, but I can't be sure
2 about that.
3 Q. On that occasion between 11.00 and 12.00, did you speak to the man
4 whom you were told was the duty officer?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you be able to tell us, to the extent that you were familiar
7 with Dragan Jokic and his voice whether this could have been his voice or
8 not, or can't you answer?
9 A. I cannot remember the voice.
10 Q. Thank you. At one point you said that there was more than one
11 commanding officer in the command. What did you mean by that? What
12 command question -- the brigade command, I apologise.
13 A. There was more than one commanding officer there because they had
14 good communications, good rears, and there was more than one officer
15 there. Which of them was on duty on that day, I wouldn't know. The person
16 who drew up the roster in the brigade would be able to tell you that.
17 Q. Do you agree with me that in that period of time from 11.00 to
18 12.00, it was to be expected that there would be more than one officer
19 present in the brigade command?
20 A. I don't know which of the commanding officers were in the brigade
21 command at that time. Probably -- of course it was possible that more
22 than one officer would be there, but whether that actually happened on
23 that day, I really don't know.
24 Q. How well did you know Drago Nikolic at that time?
25 A. I've already said that for about seven months I was in the
1 1st Battalion, I think, as assistant commander for security within the
2 battalion, and that was when I got to know Drago Nikolic. I didn't him
3 before that.
4 Q. Do you know that on that morning a meeting was held in the command
5 of the Zvornik Brigade which was attended by security officers from the
6 battalion and from the brigade and that the meeting was concluded before
8 A. I'm not aware of that.
9 Q. Is it possible that on that occasion you talked to Drago Nikolic
10 about the fact that prisoners would be arriving in a few hours and that
11 they should go to the school?
12 A. It was the duty officer from the brigade who told me this. I've
13 already told you I don't know who it was. I really don't know whether it
14 was Drago Nikolic or not.
15 Q. I understood you to say that you expected that these prisoners
16 would be in the school for a time and that after that they would be
17 exchanged. Is this correct?
18 A. That was my personal opinion, my personal opinion. It was just an
19 opinion, nothing more.
20 Q. What did you base this opinion on?
21 A. I've already said that in 1993 or 1994 our soldiers captured a
22 member of the Muslim army up there on the front line. They brought him to
23 us at the command. Then he was taken to the Zvornik Brigade, where I
24 don't know whether he was interrogated or not. But I'm sure that after a
25 certain time, this man was exchanged.
1 Q. Was that why you thought that these people who were to be brought
2 to the school would also be exchanged?
3 A. Yes, precisely this. That's why I thought they would be
5 Q. May I conclude from your reply that in the conversation you had
6 between 11.00 and 12.00, you were not told what would happen to these
8 A. I've already said that I was told the prisoners would be arriving.
9 As to what would happen to them, nobody said anything about that at that
11 Q. When you say "at that time" --
12 A. I mean when the duty officer from the brigade called me between
13 11.00 and 12.00. He said that these prisoners would be arriving and that
14 they would be put up in the school.
15 Q. And at that time, nobody said what would then happen to the
17 A. Nobody told me anything. They just told me where they would be
18 put up.
19 Q. Did someone then tell you at some other time what would happen to
20 these prisoners, and did you have any other knowledge as to what would
21 happen to them?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. You're welcome.
25 Q. In the indictment that we have before us it says that on the 15th
1 in the early morning hours, the burial of the victims began at the
2 Petkovci dam. My question to you is: As the deputy commander of the
3 battalion, are you personally aware of who took part in the burial of the
5 A. No. That morning I went to the area of the 4th Company, where I
6 stayed until late in the evening.
7 Q. Did anybody ever tell you that on that morning machinery arrived
8 at the Petkovci dam to bury the victims?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You will agree with me, then, that there is practically no purpose
11 in examining you further, because you know nothing about the burials?
12 A. I don't know anything about the burials.
13 Q. And only one more question about this. On the 15th when you
14 returned from the 4th Company and spent the time until 1.00 a.m. From the
15 15th to the 16th in the battalion command, did you see Dragan Jokic around
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. You're welcome.
20 Q. I will now try to clarify another point. Today you said that one
21 of the two soldiers who were killed on that occasion by a shell was a
22 soldier nicknamed -- whose last name was Micic. Is this correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are you sure he was a member of the engineers' company?
25 A. Yes. In the battalion, we had two members of the engineers'
1 company, this Micic and another man whose first name was Milisav, and I
2 can't remember his last name, and this Milisav was a school friend of
4 Q. We have a list here of the members of the engineers' company,
5 which has been exhibited -- it was exhibited when Mr. Butler testified.
6 Can you help us by telling us the first name of this Micic so that we can
7 check it on the list of the members of the engineers' company.
8 A. I can't remember his first name exactly, but I know he was born in
9 the village of Trsic that's all I know and his last name was Micic. The
10 other man's first name was Milislav and his last name was Martinovic. But
11 I can't remember his first name.
12 Q. Let's just clarify: Milisav Martinovic was not a member of the
13 engineers' company?
14 A. He was in our battalion and he was a member of the engineers'
15 company, he and this Micic who were killed, because they made sure that
16 the frontline which was mined was kept in good order, and that if a mine
17 exploded, it should be replaced.
18 Q. Now we understand each other. Am I right in saying that these two
19 soldiers were resubordinated and they served in the 6th Battalion?
20 A. Yes. They were in the 6th Battalion on behalf of the engineers'
21 company, and they worked with us in the matters that had to do with the
22 engineering matters.
23 Q. Thank you. Now we have clarified this. And let's try and deal
24 with another thing. Are you aware of the fact the chief of engineers in
25 the command of the brigade, and this specialty or this formation, is it
1 separate from the commander of the engineers' company? Are these two
2 different things?
3 A. I believe that the chief of engineers is different from the
4 commander, and that the commander is probably subordinated to the chief of
5 engineers, like the commander of the company in my battalion was
6 subordinated to the battalion commander.
7 Q. Very well then. I wanted to ask you: Do you have military
8 training or education?
9 A. No, I don't. I said that at the beginning. I told you what my
10 profession was.
11 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you said that after the compulsory military
12 service you were given the rank of a lance corporal?
13 A. Yes, yes, from the Army of the then-Yugoslavia.
14 Q. My question is: Are these two functions separate and do they
15 exist separately, one, the chief of engineers, and the other, commander of
17 A. I can't give you the exact answer [Realtime transcript read in
18 error "number"].
19 Q. Thank you. I wanted to ask you a few more things that have to do
20 with your acquaintance with Dragan Jokic and your views of his character.
21 How closely did you socialise at that time with Dragan Jokic and how
22 closely did you know him?
23 A. You mean during the conflict?
24 Q. Yes. During that period, because I understand that you arrived
25 from Kladanj, so let's say between 1992 and 1996, until the end of the
2 A. We did not socialise. We just saw each other if I had to go to
3 the brigade, and then I would see him there by chance, because I was on a
4 different side. I was in the command of the 6th Battalion. So we saw
5 each other rather rarely.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra. Is there a problem.
7 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. There is a problem in the
8 transcript that means a lot to the definition of the answers for the
9 witness. On -- at 20.17.04.26, the transcript says: I can't give you the
10 exact number and the witness said I can't give you the exact answer. And
11 that's a big difference in his testimony before this Trial Chamber.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
13 MR. WAESPI: And I believe the interpreter had corrected herself
15 JUDGE LIU: But it's not reflected in the transcript.
16 Maybe, Mr. Stojanovic, we could go over that again to make sure,
17 since Ms. Sinatra claims that is very important to your client.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may repeat the question, we
19 will surely get the right answer.
20 Q. My question was: The functions of the chief of engineers and the
21 commander of the engineering company, are they two separate functions?
22 A. I said I couldn't answer that question.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I bring my cross-examination
24 to an end, Your Honour, because we have received the answer to this?
25 Q. What was your impression of Dragan Jokic's character, in view of
1 the level of acquaintance you had with him at that period?
2 A. I believe that he was an honest man, a man of integrity.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
4 Your Honours. Thank you, and I would like to thank the witness as well.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
6 Any redirect, Mr. Waespi?
7 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
9 Well, at this stage, are there any documents to tender?
10 Mr. Waespi?
11 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. It's the sketch drawn by the
12 witness himself, Exhibit P668.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
14 Any objections? Mr. Karnavas?
15 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no objections, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
17 Mr. Stojanovic?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we are talking
19 about a map rather than a drawing, and this could lead to a
20 misunderstanding. So if we are talking about the map, we don't have any
21 objections to the map being admitted into evidence.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I do apologise. The reference I wanted to make
24 is that he added, you know, some marks on to that map. But it's a map,
25 you are correct.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So there is no disputes about it. So this
2 document is admitted into the evidence.
3 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
4 your evidence. I think during the break the usher will pull down the
5 blinds and show you out of the room. And we all wish you a pleasant
6 journey back home. We will have our break and we will resume at 20
7 minutes to 6.00.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 --- Recess taken at 5.09 p.m.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 [The witness entered court]
12 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.
13 JUDGE LIU: Good evening, Witness.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.
15 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: OSTOJA STANOJEVIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
23 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour. Good evening.
24 Examined by Ms. Issa:
25 Q. Good evening, sir. Can you -- perhaps we can start off by you
1 stating your name for the record and spelling your last name, please.
2 A. S-t-a-n-o-j-e-v-i-c.
3 Q. Okay, and that's your last name, it's Mr. Stanojevic?
4 A. O-s-t-o-j-a.
5 Q. And I take it that was your first name?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, sir, when you and I met, I believe it was yesterday, you were
8 given your rights to counsel and your right to remain silent. Isn't that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you waived those rights and agreed to speak to us without
12 counsel. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you have agreed to testify today without the presence of
15 counsel. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Thank you. Perhaps we can start off with some
18 background information, sir. Can you tell us what your date of birth is.
19 A. 13 August, 1947.
20 Q. All right. And what is your educational background, just very
22 A. I finished elementary school.
23 Q. All right. And I understand, sir, that your ethnicity is Serbian.
24 Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you were serving in the army, the Bosnian Serb army, during
2 the course of the war, from 1992 until the end of the war. Is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what branch of the army have you been serving in?
6 A. Engineers.
7 Q. And when did you join the engineering branch?
8 A. 23rd June, 1992.
9 Q. And what were your duties at that time?
10 A. I was a driver.
11 Q. Okay. And during the period of July 1995, which unit were you
12 serving in?
13 A. Engineers.
14 Q. And what brigade is that?
15 A. The Zvornik.
16 Q. Who was your immediate commander at the time?
17 A. Major Jokic.
18 Q. Is that Dragan Jokic?
19 A. Dragan, yes.
20 Q. All right. And do you see Mr. Jokic in the courtroom today?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. All right. Can you just point him out for the record and briefly
23 describe what he's wearing.
24 A. He's sitting to my left, and he's wearing a suit.
25 Q. All right. Thank you, and for the record, he's just identified
1 the accused Dragan Jokic.
2 And what about the other drivers of the engineering unit, sir, to
3 whom did they report?
4 A. Major Jokic. And there are also platoon commanders there.
5 Q. Okay. And where was the engineering unit located?
6 A. In Karakaj across the road from Glinica.
7 Q. Okay. And where was Major Jokic's office located in relation to
8 your location, the engineering unit?
9 A. It was within the same compound.
10 Q. All right. Now, in July of 1995, were you assigned to a
11 particular vehicle?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. And can you describe that vehicle for us.
14 A. It was FAP 1921, it was a Kip truck.
15 Q. Okay. And what capacity does this truck have?
16 A. 8 tonnes.
17 Q. Was there anyone else who was using the truck besides yourself?
18 A. If I wasn't there, then there were other people who could use it.
19 Q. And by "other people," are you referring to other drivers in your
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. All right. Turning, then, specifically, sir, to July of 1995,
23 could you name the officers at the engineering unit.
24 A. Major Jokic and Dragan Jevtic, who was his deputy.
25 Q. Okay. And who did you receive instructions from directly?
1 A. Either from Major Jokic or from commanders.
2 Q. And in what manner were instructions given to you?
3 A. Orally. They told us what we had to do orally.
4 Q. Most of the time, sir, who did you receive instructions from?
5 A. The platoon commanders and Major Jokic.
6 Q. Okay. Now, on 14 July of 1995, what were your duties that day?
7 A. It was a Friday, I think. In the morning when Major Jokic arrived
8 at about 9.00, he was in the command of the staff and he told me to get
9 the car ready and that I would spend several days in the field. He said I
10 was to go to Srebrenica to clear up some garbage that was there and that I
11 was to report to the civilian protection in Zvornik.
12 Q. Now, just to clarify, sir, we had -- it was translated as a car
13 that you had to get ready. Can you tell us specifically the type of
14 vehicle that you had to get ready.
15 A. The F-a-p, Fap Kiper, 1921.
16 Q. All right. And did you follow those instructions?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. So after having received that instruction from Major Jokic, where
19 did you go?
20 A. I went to Zvornik. I reported to the civilian protection there.
21 Q. Okay. And what happened when you reported to the civil defence in
23 A. They told me to wait. I waited for maybe an hour and a half.
24 Then three people came, Dragan Mirkovic, Rajko Djokic, and Arsen Krunic.
25 Q. And where did you wait?
1 A. In front of the civilian protection building in the centre of the
3 Q. And what were you wearing when you reported to them?
4 A. A military uniform.
5 Q. All right. What happened after you waited?
6 A. Nothing happened.
7 Q. Did they come back and speak to you at any time, those three
8 individuals that you told us about?
9 A. They told me to wait, and then we went to Bratunac.
10 Q. Okay. And who did you go to Bratunac with?
11 A. Rajko Djokic and Arsen Krunic were with me in the truck.
12 Q. And where was Dragan Mirkovic?
13 A. He took his own car.
14 Q. All right. And when you arrived at Bratunac, where did you go?
15 A. I parked the truck by the church in Bratunac. The two of them
16 went to the municipality building, and that is where they found Dragan,
17 who was already there.
18 Q. And that -- you're referring to Dragan Mirkovic. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Okay. And did they say anything to you or did they -- at some
21 point? Did they come back and give you instructions?
22 A. They told me to wait there.
23 Q. Okay. And after they went into the municipal building, did they
24 return at some point?
25 A. Yes, after having stayed there for a longer time.
1 Q. Okay. And what did they say to you after they came out of the
2 building? What did they tell you?
3 A. They came up to my truck and told me that Dragan Mirkovic and
4 Krunic were to go home, and that Rajko was to stay with me.
5 Q. And did Rajko tell you what you were to do next, what were your
6 next instructions?
7 A. We spent the night in the hotel. And on the following morning, we
8 were to go to Srebrenica.
9 Q. Okay. And which hotel was that?
10 A. I don't know. I am not that familiar with Bratunac. I only know
11 that there was one hotel in the centre. I don't know.
12 Q. Okay. And when did you get your next instructions?
13 A. After breakfast, I went up to my truck and Rajko went to the
14 municipal building. I didn't see him until that evening.
15 Q. Okay. And are you now referring to the following morning after
16 you spent the night in the hotel?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And I just want to ask you about the time. You said you
19 had your breakfast, and did you meet with Rajko that morning?
20 A. Yes. He went to the municipality building.
21 Q. Okay. And when did he return again to see you?
22 A. I don't know what the time was. It was around noon. He told me
23 that we still couldn't go to Srebrenica. He didn't tell me why. He only
24 told me to continue waiting.
25 Q. Okay. Did you meet with anybody else around that time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did anyone else give you any instructions during that day?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And who was that?
5 A. A man came, a worker probably from the civilian protection, but I
6 don't know. He told me to go to Kravica to do something, according to
7 somebody's orders. I don't know who the orders were from.
8 Q. Okay. And did you go to Kravica?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you go alone or did you go with anyone?
11 A. I didn't know the road, so he told me he would go with me.
12 Q. All right. Did you -- do you know this man's name?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Can you describe him?
15 A. I can't remember. I can't describe him.
16 Q. All right. Was there anyone else with you besides this gentleman
17 when you went to Kravica?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Can you indicate what this gentleman was wearing.
20 A. He had civilian clothes, working clothes.
21 Q. Okay. And what route did you take to get to Kravica?
22 A. We went towards Konjevic Polje.
23 Q. And at this stage, sir, were you able to call Major Jokic and tell
24 him what was happening?
25 A. No, I was not able to do that.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object at this point.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Because the question suggests that the gentleman
5 was requested to call Major Jokic, and I think it's misleading, the
6 question itself. It's almost like asking somebody: When did you stop
7 beating your wife? That sort of a question. So I object to the line
8 of -- the way the question was phrased and the answer that was solicited.
9 It's improper, unless you can lay a foundation that at some point that day
10 he was supposed to call Major Jokic.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you. But we have already passed
12 that section, and the witness has answered that question. He said he was
13 not able to do that. But I hope Ms. Issa could be careful in the future
14 in the direct examination.
15 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour. I would have submissions to
16 make on this point, subject to Your Honour, but I will follow Your
17 Honour's instructions on this point.
18 Q. Now, sir, when you arrived at Kravica, can you describe what you
20 A. I found a truck there full of human corpses. There was an
21 excavator that loaded bodies on to the truck. There was some six people
23 Q. Okay. Can you describe the place where they were loading bodies.
24 A. Yes. That was close to a building in front of a garage. There
25 was some distance between the garage and the building.
1 Q. All right. Well, turning, then, to Prosecution Exhibit P10.1.
2 I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to show you a photograph, sir, and ask
3 you if you recognise it.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. So can you tell us what this photograph depicts.
6 A. Well, that is the garage, the second building here, where corpses
7 were, and they were loaded on to my truck.
8 Q. Okay. Could you point to that.
9 A. [Indicates]
10 Q. So it's the second garage from the left side of the photograph.
11 Is that correct?
12 A. Here.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MS. ISSA: So for the record, Your Honour, I think he's referring
15 to the second garage from the left side of the photograph.
16 Q. Now, around what time of day was this, sir?
17 A. I don't know. It was in the afternoon.
18 Q. Okay. And how many people did you see loading bodies?
19 A. Five people.
20 Q. Okay. Can you describe the manner in which they were loading the
22 A. There was an excavator in front of the garage door. They were
23 bringing bodies out, and they loaded the bodies into the grab. And when
24 the grab was full, then that grab would load the bodies into my truck.
25 Q. Okay. Can you indicate whether or not they were physically taking
1 the bodies out with their hands or was it the excavator that was taking
2 out the bodies. Can you clarify that.
3 A. The bodies were being taken out from the garage by the excavator;
4 the excavator did that.
5 Q. Okay. And what were the men doing with the bodies?
6 A. I don't know what you are referring to.
7 Q. You just described to us whether or not -- let me ask you this:
8 Were the men touching the bodies? I'm sorry, I didn't hear your answer.
9 A. Yes. I could see them taking them out of the building. I was
10 standing by the other building, close to my truck.
11 Q. Okay. And how many bodies did you see being placed in that truck?
12 A. I don't know. They threw in two grab-fulls of bodies. I don't
13 know how many bodies could one excavator grab hold at a time.
14 Q. Okay. Are you able to describe the size of the excavator, its
16 A. I don't know its dimensions, but I'm sure that it was 2 metres
17 wide and that it could hold about 1 to 1.5 cubic metres of sand.
18 Q. Okay. And was the truck that you saw filled to its capacity?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. Can you tell us how many bodies approximately you saw in the
22 A. I don't know. I didn't really look, and I couldn't really see. I
23 didn't stand up in my truck cab in order to see how many bodies there
25 Q. Okay. And where were you located in relation to the truck, the
1 other truck?
2 A. The other truck was not there. The truck that I saw had already
3 left, and I was there on my own.
4 Q. Okay. So did you see that truck that you saw leave? Did you see
5 it depart?
6 A. Yes. I saw it leaving.
7 Q. And after it left, sir, what did you do?
8 A. I parked in front of that building so my truck could be loaded.
9 That's what I was told to do.
10 Q. And who told you that? Who gave you that instruction?
11 A. That man who came with me all the way from Bratunac.
12 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you a diagram, turning then to
13 Prosecution Exhibit 670, with the assistance of Mr. Usher, and I'm going
14 to ask you if you can identify it for us.
15 A. This is the road that I came down from. This is where I was.
16 This is the building. These are garages, and this is where the excavator
17 was in front of the door. And this is the Kravica/Bratunac road.
18 Q. Okay. So for the record the letters K and B refer to the
19 Kravica/Bratunac road. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And where you pointed, where it's marked -- the letter D, that is
22 the location where the excavator was loading bodies. Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And where were you located, sir?
25 A. I was by the building. I was drinking water as they were loading
1 the bodies. Then I went to the truck, and when they loaded the second
2 batch, two men went with me to our destination.
3 Q. Okay. Well, we're going to get to the second batch. I'm now
4 going to ask you, sir, where you were -- well, let me ask you this first
5 of all. Were bodies loaded into your truck?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where were you when the bodies were loaded into your truck?
8 A. I was up there, the end of the building. I was drinking water.
9 As they were loading the first batch, I was there drinking water. As they
10 were loading the second batch, I was in the truck.
11 Q. So let's talk about the first batch for the time being, and can
12 you point to where you were in the diagram when they were loading the
13 first batch.
14 If you look at the diagram on the overhead projector, sir, next to
15 you on your left, and point to it, please.
16 A. This is where I was at the far end of the building. I was
17 drinking water here.
18 Q. Okay. So that's around where it's marked the letter C, for the
19 record. Okay.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And how many bodies did they load into your truck?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Okay. How many bucket-fulls did they load in your truck?
24 A. Two bucket-fulls.
25 Q. And were the bodies loaded into your truck in the same manner as
1 they had loaded the bodies in the previous truck?
2 A. I don't know how they loaded the first truck. It was already
3 ready to leave, so I suppose they did it in the same way.
4 Q. Are you able to tell us, sir, what was the capacity of the bucket?
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't mean to object, but these questions have
8 been asked already at least once if not twice, and the gentleman has
9 already indicated -- so I understand she wants to get through this
10 material, but the gentleman indicated before that he did not know how many
11 bodies could fit in. He did give an approximation as to the size and as
12 to the cubic metres of the bucket. So I don't want to belabour the point.
13 This line of questioning has been asked and answered.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
15 MS. ISSA: I was simply trying to clarify a point and I think
16 counsel has to be very careful as to what he says in front of the witness.
17 I think that's very important, and I certainly try to be careful, and I
18 think care should be taken in that regard. I think I asked a different
19 question before. I was asking about the dimensions, and I'm trying to
20 simply clarify the point if he knows. I don't believe it's repetitive.
21 JUDGE LIU: But this question sounds very similar to the previous
23 MS. ISSA: Well, I don't disagree with Your Honour on that point,
24 however it may lead to a more elaborate answer.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well --
1 MS. ISSA: Or rather --
2 JUDGE LIU: Let's try that, yes. Can you ask your question again.
3 MS. ISSA: Thank you.
4 Q. Are you able to tell us, sir, the capacity of the bucket, just
5 approximately from what you saw?
6 A. 1.5 cubic metres of gravel or sand, approximately.
7 MS. ISSA: I'll leave the point, Your Honour.
8 Q. Can you describe, sir, what the clothing was on the bodies? What
9 were the bodies wearing?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you see any injuries on the bodies?
12 A. No, I didn't come any closer to them. I didn't see.
13 Q. Did you speak to any of the men loading the bodies into your
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you speak to the person who was driving the loader or the
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. And the men that were working with the bodies, what were they
21 A. Civilian clothes, working clothes.
22 Q. When you say "working clothes," can you describe more specifically
23 what they were wearing.
24 A. Blue uniforms, such as worn by people who are in civilian
25 protection or people employed in public utilities companies, that kind of
2 Q. Okay. Now, was your truck filled to its capacity with bodies?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Approximately how many bodies were in your truck?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Can you give us an approximation, sir?
7 A. I can't. I don't know.
8 Q. Okay. Can you describe what the loader looked like?
9 A. Yes. The loader had four wheels. It had one bucket in the front
10 part, and this was a bucket that would normally be used for loading
12 Q. Okay. Turning, then, to Prosecution Exhibit P63.
13 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Mr. Usher.
14 Q. Now, you've seen this photograph when you and I met. Is that
15 correct, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And looking at this photograph, can you indicate what the loader
18 looked like in relation to this photograph.
19 A. It was similar to this one.
20 Q. Okay. Was it different in any way?
21 A. No. It may have been a little lower, and the bucket was perhaps
22 smaller and a little lower down.
23 Q. Okay. Now, after the bodies were loaded into your truck, what did
24 you do?
25 A. I went with those two workers so that they would tell me where I
1 would unload these bodies, and we drove in the direction of Glogova.
2 Q. Which two workers did you go with?
3 A. The one who came with me from Bratunac and another one who worked
4 on the loading.
5 Q. Okay. And can you describe the direction that you went in on your
6 way to Glogova.
7 A. Towards Konjevic Polje.
8 Q. Okay. So turning, then, to another diagram, Exhibit Number 669.
9 Do you recognise this diagram, sir?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And who drew the diagram? Do you know who drew the diagram?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Okay. Is that your signature on the bottom?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Can you indicate what this diagram depicts using the pointer?
16 A. You can see the house and the grave below the house, and this is
17 the main road and this is where I turned off the main road. And beneath
18 this house was a grave. It wasn't far from the road.
19 Q. All right. So for the record, the letters K and B refer to the
20 road, and the letter D refers to the house. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. And the letters E and C depicts the grave. Is that correct?
23 A. No, not C. The letter E only depicts the grave.
24 Q. Okay. Now, how many pits did you see when you arrived or graves?
25 A. There was only one.
1 Q. Okay. Did you see anyone there at the grave when you arrived?
2 A. No, only the two workers who came and who remained there later on.
3 Q. Okay. Did you see any bodies inside the grave when you arrived?
4 A. Yes, yes. There were bodies inside.
5 Q. Okay. And what did you do when you arrived?
6 A. The grave had been dug, and there was a gentle slope. So with the
7 help of the two workers, I went into reverse gear so that they could
9 Q. Okay. Can you describe how the bodies were unloaded from your
10 truck into the grave.
11 A. Those two workers climbed on to the truck. They opened the back,
12 and then they threw the bodies out.
13 Q. Okay. Where were you when the bodies were being thrown into the
15 A. I was inside the truck.
16 Q. What happened after the bodies were thrown into the grave?
17 A. I went back to Kravica, and the two of them remained there to wait
18 for me because there were more bodies to be brought there.
19 Q. Okay. And who instructed you to return back to Kravica to bring
20 back more bodies?
21 A. They told me at Kravica -- when I set out, they told me there were
22 more bodies to collect.
23 Q. Okay. Now, when you returned to Kravica, can you describe what
24 you did.
25 A. I parked the truck in the same place so they could load the
1 remaining bodies on to it.
2 Q. Okay. And how many bucket-fulls did they load this time?
3 A. Two, but there were fewer bodies than the first time.
4 Q. Okay. And after the bodies were loaded on to your truck this
5 time, what did you do?
6 A. I went back again to the same place in Glogova.
7 Q. Okay. Did you -- what did you do in Glogova?
8 A. To unload the bodies of the dead.
9 Q. Okay. And how were they unloaded this time?
10 A. In the same way as the first time. The two workers who had
11 remained there climbed on to the truck and they piled up the bodies.
12 Q. Okay. And what did you do after the bodies were thrown into the
13 pit a second time?
14 A. I went to Bratunac.
15 Q. All right. And where did you go in Bratunac?
16 A. I went and parked the truck in the same place, near the church.
17 Q. Okay. Did you wash the truck off?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you meet with anyone that evening?
20 A. No. I didn't know anyone in Bratunac. It was the first time I
21 had been in that town.
22 Q. Okay. And where did you go?
23 A. I went to the hotel to sleep.
24 Q. And what did you do the next morning?
25 A. After I had had breakfast, Rajko was there. He'd gone to the
1 municipality, and we were supposed to go to Srebrenica. I was near the
2 truck, and when I arrived he said that he had heard in the municipality
3 that the military had come to the demarcation line the Baljkovica, that a
4 lot of people had been killed, and we agreed that we should go to Zvornik
5 and not to Srebrenica, where we were supposed to go on that day.
6 Q. Okay. And did you return to Zvornik?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you tell Rajko what you had been doing the previous day?
9 A. When I passed through Kravica and went to Zvornik, I told him then
10 where the bodies were.
11 Q. Okay. And how did he respond?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Okay. And what did you do when you arrived in Zvornik?
14 A. Rajko went to the civilian protection office, and I continued on
15 to my barracks in the youth settlement where we were billeted. There I
16 parked the truck and went home to hear from my family, because I had
17 relatives at the demarcation line, and it was then that I learned that a
18 cousin of mine had been killed.
19 Q. The next day did you report to anyone?
20 A. On the next day?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Do you mean on Sunday when I arrived -- no the next day.
23 Q. Monday.
24 A. I went to the command, and I met Commander Jokic. And I asked him
25 to let me go to Baljkovica to look for my cousin. No one had found him,
1 and I think he granted my request and I went there.
2 Q. Did you tell Commander Jokic what you had been doing in Kravica?
3 A. Yes, I did. I told him I was unhappy about it, and he told me he
4 had given me over to the civilian protection and that it was they who gave
5 this order to me.
6 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, sir, would the civil defence send
7 Major Jokic's instructions directly or would they have to go to the
8 Zvornik Brigade command?
9 A. Jokic couldn't have decided on this on his own. The brigade had
10 to give them the truck and myself -- I mean, the civilian protection. It
11 had to go through senior people.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may interject here --
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: I am told, I am told by Ms. Tomanovic that there
16 might have been a slight mistake in the translation when the gentleman
17 indicated what Mr. Jokic had told him --
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think you have the opportunity
19 to cross-examine this witness to clarify this issue.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: What I'm saying is the gentleman said one thing and
21 it was translated -- there was an omission in the translation. That's
22 what I'm stating, Your Honour. So perhaps -- and I don't want to -- for
23 the sake of the record if the gentleman could be asked a question and
24 maybe given an opportunity to give the answer again. That's
25 all I'm saying.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that's a reasonable request.
2 Ms. Issa, could you please ask the question again.
3 MS. ISSA:
4 Q. All right, sir, could you tell us again about reporting to
5 Mr. Jokic regarding what you did at Kravica warehouse.
6 A. He told me then that he hadn't sent me to do that job, but the
7 civilian protection ordered me to do this. I was supposed to go to
8 Srebrenica to drive garbage. I was supposed to stay there for another 15
9 days. There was quite a lot of work to be done, but he didn't know about
10 what I was doing. I was not happy that I had done this.
11 Q. Okay. Did you ever report to anyone else, aside from Major Jokic,
12 about the bodies that you saw in Kravica and the grave in Glogova?
13 A. No. Only Rajko knew and Major Jokic. I didn't tell anyone else
14 about it.
15 Q. Okay. Why not? Why didn't you tell anyone else about it?
16 A. I didn't, I don't know why.
17 Q. Did you ask anyone why there were bodies at Kravica, where they
18 came from?
19 A. No. There was no one to ask. I didn't know anyone.
20 Q. Did you ask the people, the men that were loading bodies at the
21 time, or the worker that you went with?
22 A. No. No, no.
23 Q. Okay. I just have one more exhibit, sir, to show you. Exhibit
24 517, which is taken from the Zvornik Brigade vehicle log.
25 Now, you have had an opportunity to look at this vehicle log when
1 you and I met. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you see your name there listed as a driver that went to
4 Orahovac on the 14th of July and to Kozluk on the 16th of July? Your name
5 is there on those two occasions?
6 A. No -- yes, my name is here on the travel order, but this is a
7 TAM 75; that was a luxury vehicle in our view. It's possible that I
8 filled it with fuel the first time and they filled this in my name. And
9 then they could fill it with fuel without me sitting behind the wheel for
10 a whole month, so this is actually not relevant.
11 Q. Okay. So just to clarify, you're saying -- did you go to the --
12 you did not go to those places, to Orahovac and Kozluk on those dates?
13 A. No, no.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
15 MS. ISSA: I have nothing further.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours, this
18 witness calls for no cross-examination.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
20 Mr. Stojanovic, we have less than 15 minutes left. Do you prefer
21 to do your cross tomorrow or do you prefer to start right now?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I think it will
23 last longer than a quarter of an hour, it might be better if we left it
24 for tomorrow, if Your Honour doesn't mind.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. But can you give me some indication how long
1 your cross will last, just approximately?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think half an hour,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
5 Well, Witness, I have to remind you that you are under the oath,
6 so do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about your
7 testimony tonight and tomorrow morning. Do you understand that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And I think the hearing is adjourned, and
10 we'll resume at 11.30 in this courtroom tomorrow morning.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
12 at 6.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
13 the 5th day of December, 2003, at 11.30 a.m.