1 Friday, 5 December 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 12.01 p.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 Good afternoon, Witness.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
12 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to proceed?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
15 Mr. Stojanovic, your cross-examination, please.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
17 WITNESS: OSTOJA STANOJEVIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stanojevic.
21 As I was preparing for my cross-examination, we looked at
22 yesterday's testimony and we decided to clarify just a few things with the
23 witness, so I believe that my cross-examination will last much shorter
24 than I announced yesterday. Thank you.
25 Good afternoon, Mr. Stanojevic.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. Kindly help us clarify a few issues. Yesterday when you were
3 talking about your arrival in Kravica, you mentioned a machine that had
4 already been there. To the Prosecutor's question, you described that
5 machine. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You were shown a photo which should reflect the appearance of that
8 machine and you said yes, that is the machine with a scoop. Is that
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. Will you agree with me that that machine did not belong to the
12 engineers company of the Zvornik Brigade?
13 A. No, it didn't belong to it.
14 Q. In addition to yourself, on the day when you were in Kravica and
15 Glogova, was there anybody else there from the engineers company of the
16 Zvornik Brigade?
17 A. No. I was the only one there.
18 Q. Thank you, Ostoja. And I wanted to clarify one more thing.
19 Yesterday you mentioned the name of Rajko Djokic.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You said that you were also there with you [as interpreted] in
22 Bratunac on the 15th in the morning.
23 A. Yes, on Sunday morning that was -- no, it was on Saturday. Yes,
24 he was with me.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, would you please stop for a
1 while. It seems that my monitor has something wrong. The laptop is okay,
2 but the monitor is something wrong. I'm just afraid that we missed some
3 transcript in the monitor.
4 Well, should we wait for the technicians to check our monitor or
5 should we proceed, because you know, we have the laptop here and the
6 transcript is in the laptop.
7 Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
8 MS. SINATRA: Excuse me. Your Honour, our laptop on this computer
9 is not working. It still just says 5th of December, open session, and
10 nothing further.
11 JUDGE LIU: I see. So I'm afraid that we have to wait for a
12 minute. But it seems to me that everything is okay.
13 So shall we proceed while the technician will come into the
14 courtroom to look at that laptop of the Defence team.
15 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Your Honour.
17 Once again, this cross-examination is not going to take a long time.
18 Q. Let's go back to that day. We were talking about Rajko Djokic and
19 you confirmed to me that he was in Bratunac on that day and that he stayed
20 with you in Bratunac. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What happened? Can you help us and tell us where he was. Where
23 did he stay when you were in Kravica and in Glogova?
24 A. I don't know. I know that he was in the municipality. Where he
25 was on that day, I don't know.
1 Q. Can we then agree that he also was not either in Kravica or in
3 A. Rajko Djokic; no, he wasn't there.
4 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that Rajko Djokic, captain first
5 class, at the beginning of the war was a commander of a battalion, and
6 then, because of his advanced age, he was transferred to the civilian
8 A. I don't remember. I know that he worked in the civilian
10 Q. Do you remember that he was captain first class and reserve
12 A. Yes, he was a reserve officer. I remember that.
13 Q. Thank you. And one more thing, please. Am I right in saying that
14 in Glogova, you did not see anybody from the engineers company, none of
15 their members or machines?
16 A. No, I didn't see anybody. There were just two workers who worked
18 Q. Thank you. I would like to take the opportunity to have -- of
19 having you here to ask you how long have you known Dragan Jokic?
20 A. I met Dragan Jokic on the 23rd of June, 1992, when I joined the
21 Serbian army. That was on the 23rd of June.
22 Q. Can you describe Dragan Jokic as a person, as an officer.
23 A. I can't complain. He was a good man. He was a good officer. He
24 was good.
25 Q. Did he make any profits during the war, or was he the person who
1 shared the destiny of his people and his soldiers?
2 A. Precisely as you put it. He hasn't made any profit. He has
3 exactly the things that he started with. He has nothing more than he had.
4 Q. Am I right in saying that his soul was pure during the war and
5 after the war?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions,
8 Your Honour. Thank you.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 Any redirect, Ms. Issa?
11 MS. ISSA: No, thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
13 At this stage, are there any documents to tender through this
14 witness. Ms. Issa?
15 MS. ISSA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. There are two documents,
16 and they are the two diagrams that were referred to by the witness, P669
17 and P670.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 Any objections? Mr. Karnavas?
20 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
22 Mr. Stojanovic?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no objections to the
24 admission of these two exhibits.
25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So these two exhibits are
1 admitted into the evidence. I guess there is no evidence to tender
2 through this witness by the Defence team.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
5 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
6 your testimony. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you
7 out of the room. We all wish you a pleasant journey back home. Thank
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I guess there is no witness on the list for this
13 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour. That completes the witnesses for this
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
16 Well, are there any procedural matters that the parties would like
17 to bring to the attention of this Bench? Yes?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing I can think of, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
20 Nothing from the Defence?
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Nothing in particular, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
23 Ms. Sinatra.
24 MS. SINATRA: I was going to try to handle this informally, Your
25 Honour, but since we have a few moments, I would like to mention that, as
1 far as I remember, the Trial Chamber did order that five days after the
2 last intercept witness our final reply to the Prosecution's motion to
3 admit intercept evidence would be due. Of course, five days after that
4 will fall right in the middle of the Christmas holiday. I was hoping that
5 the Trial Chamber would be home enjoying their family during this break,
6 and therefore would not be forced to read any documents from this trial at
7 that point. So I was going to ask that since it does fall right at
8 Christmas, maybe the Court would entertain allowing this to be filed after
9 the first week in January. But Judge Liu did indicate that he will not be
10 home with his family, so I understand he'll be here reading everything I
11 write. But that's my request is if we could just wait until after the
12 Christmas holiday since the whole Tribunal, as far as I understand, will
13 be closed down the 19th of December, afterwards.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
15 Well, Mr. McCloskey, could you please indicate to us how many
16 intercepts are still not introduced and is going to be introduced before
17 the Christmas break.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the remaining intercept witness is
19 a completely different sort of intercept than the Court has already seen.
20 As you know, the -- this is what we refer to as the tactical intercepts.
21 The person that had responsibility for taking the tactical intercepts is
22 -- will be here, and he has a collection of those tactical intercepts.
23 They're very rough jotted notes. You've seen them, I'm sure you remember,
24 Mr. Obrenovic talking about the tactical intercepts where the two
25 engineers were mentioned. That's what this has to do with.
1 Because it has to do with Mr. Obrenovic and these two engineers,
2 one of whom we have actually seen testify, we thought it was important to
3 give you the full picture and let you hear about these tactical
4 intercepts. So this one person will testify about those intercept
5 collection and that intercept in particular. But it's a much -- these are
6 -- when we say tactical, as you may have seen from the witness summary,
7 these are soldiers in the woods with smaller radios, collecting different
8 sorts of radio communications than the fellows on the big mountaintops.
9 So it's really apples and oranges in terms of intercepts, but it's a small
10 collection that we've already heard about before, and I don't anticipate
11 him being on the stand for too long, really.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. But some of those intercepts are
13 also important to the Defence case, as I understand, and it may show the
14 custody or the techniques or ways to obtain those intercepts.
15 And, Ms. Sinatra, I think we have gone through the -- if I say the
16 most essential intercept witnesses already, and during which the
17 Prosecution provided a lot of intercepts. And during that period you
18 raised a lot of objections. And after hearing your objections as well as
19 the testimony of those witnesses, we gave you five days to provide us with
20 further objections if you have. We have to deal with those documents
21 section by section, or group by group, and it is our intention to make a
22 ruling concerning of the intercepts before the winter recess so that the
23 parties would have a very clear picture of where they are standing. If
24 some intercepts are not admitted into the evidence, the Prosecution still
25 has the opportunity before their case closes to call more witnesses to
1 testify on that particular intercept.
2 So, Ms. Sinatra, if you have any objections to those group of
3 intercepts, we would like to have your written submissions as soon as
4 possible so that we could render a decision on that. As for the
5 forthcoming intercept witnesses and intercepts, you may - you may - file
6 your objections if there is any before the resuming of this case next
7 year. Is that understandable?
8 MS. SINATRA: I just want to make it clear so that I understand.
9 What you're saying is that I have not filed a reply to the response of the
10 Prosecution's response to our objections to the intercepts. I have a very
11 short piece. I'm not quite sure when the date is due for our reply, but
12 you're giving us until the resumption of the trial proceedings in January
13 to finalise our objections? Is that my understanding of the Trial
14 Chamber's decision?
15 JUDGE LIU: No. I mean that we have to deal with those intercepts
16 group by group. I think for the first group, it's about the live
17 testimony of some witnesses here concerning with those intercepts. If you
18 did not file your reply, I hope you could file it as soon as possible,
19 because I believe that we have to make a decision before the winter
21 As for the forthcoming intercepts, you may file it at the resuming
22 of this trial in January.
23 MS. SINATRA: So, Your Honour, could I have a rock-bottom deadline
24 to file my reply. Could that be at least the 17th or 18th of December?
25 Would that be possible?
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, you have to give us some time to
2 read your reply. I give you another week.
3 MS. SINATRA: Another week from today?
4 JUDGE LIU: From today, yes.
5 MS. SINATRA: I just wanted to make it clear so I wasn't missing a
6 deadline. Okay, thank you. I'll try to take care of it, and a famous
7 Chinese proverb: When in Rome, do as the Romans do, so I promise I'll
8 take care of it.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have a similar proverb, but I don't know
10 whether this is Chinese or English.
11 Well, are there any matters that the parties would like to bring
12 to the attention of this Trial Chamber? I see none. So the hearing is
13 adjourned. We'll resume next week in the afternoon.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
15 at 12.22 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
16 the 8th day of December, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.