Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5707

1 Monday, 8 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Before we have the witness, are there any

9 matters that the parties would like to bring to the attention of this

10 Bench?

11 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour, I do have one item and let me

13 begin with a bit of trepidation because I don't like to start a session

14 with the understanding of the parties that perhaps I'm to cause disharmony

15 in the court. We received the proofing notes from the Prosecution

16 yesterday and I'm sure they were well intended in proofing this particular

17 individual who has given a close to 90-page statement. But in the

18 proofing notes, it appears from them, from the Prosecution, that they

19 showed the gentleman certain documents in order to refresh his memory.

20 Now, one of the documents that was shown to him appears to be a document

21 that was generated and signed -- or we're a little unclear as to whether

22 it was signed by Mr. Borovcanin. The unintended result may have been, in

23 my opinion, that the individual's memory today and the testimony that

24 we're about to hear is not from his memory, but rather from documents that

25 may have been shown to him. And I am somewhat concerned of this practice.

Page 5708

1 Again, I want to stress that I don't think that there was anything

2 nefarious or sinister behind this, but I think there is an unintended

3 result. The gentleman obviously was mixed up on a lot of things when he

4 testified, or when he gave his statement. And I'm sure the effort was to

5 try to at least give him an indication as to the dates, because he's off

6 on various dates. However, I think the better practice would have been

7 for this to have occurred in court, so at least we could first hear his

8 independent memory, and then not necessarily be impeached but at that

9 point he could be shown documents in order to aid him, arrive at a -- at

10 the dates that he recollects when the certain events occurred.

11 So the question is: What am I asking for? Well, at this point

12 initially, and I must say that I was rather, shall I say, upset. That's a

13 kind way of putting it when I saw this. Upon reflection, however, I've

14 mellowed. And I would ask at the very minimum for the Court to keep -- to

15 take this into consideration at the time of hearing his testimony. My

16 initial reaction was to ask that this witness be disallowed from

17 testifying because now we no longer have his independent memory but one

18 that might have inadvertently been tampered with. When I say "tampered,"

19 I don't mean it in a bad sense but I'm saying it may have been, the word

20 is escaping me, compromised. That's the more accurate phrase. And again

21 I think it might have been -- I think it's an unintended result, but

22 nonetheless -- so I think at a very minimum this Court should keep that in

23 mind while hearing his testimony and factor that into its consideration

24 when determining what weight, if any, to give to this gentleman's

25 testimony.

Page 5709

1 I would also like at some point, perhaps we could do this at a

2 65 ter meeting, but at some point come to some sort of ground rules with

3 respect to proofing, because I do believe that this approach can be

4 abused, and I'm not saying it was, but I'm saying it can be abused to the

5 point where somebody could then come into court, testify from freshly -- a

6 memory that is not independent, but rather one that was freshly created.

7 So that's my point, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 Any explanations or submissions from the Prosecution?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I don't understand the

11 concern here, frankly. For example, it's completely normal for a witness

12 to be provided documents to help refresh his recollection. And I'll give

13 you an example: Regarding the alleged Borovcanin document that we

14 received well after this man's interview, which was a long time ago, as

15 you know, it's unclear if that's an authentic document or not. And in

16 that document, there is a statement on 12 July that talks about pioneers

17 or deminers demining an area for Borovcanin's people as they go into

18 Potocari. And as the Court knows and the Court gets copies of the

19 proofing notes as well, of course, this witness -- and we should probably

20 go into private session.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

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2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, frankly speaking, I myself am not very familiar

4 with this proofing session, because there was none of such kind of

5 procedure in my jurisdictions. We only have a very strict rule in my

6 jurisdiction that any rehearsal of the testimony is not allowed. But I

7 understand that the proofing is not a rehearsal, it's just to refresh the

8 memory of the witnesses and to try to avoid any unnecessary direct

9 examination or cross-examination in this aspect. So I believe that

10 Mr. Karnavas raises a very good issue. It's about the proofing process in

11 this Tribunal. I hope during the winter recess, the parties will have

12 some homework, to do some research on this aspect, and after the recess we

13 could get the submissions from the parties concerning of this proofing

14 process.

15 As for this particular witness, of course we are going to hear

16 this witness while bearing in mind the submissions by the parties, both

17 Mr. Karnavas and Mr. McCloskey.

18 Well, having said that, could we have the witness, please.

19 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: It might be good to go into private session just

21 briefly for the witness information.

22 JUDGE LIU: You mean when we have the witness or before the

23 witness? When we have the witness?

24 Well, it seems to me that according to our calendar, this week we

25 only have three sittings. It is our intention that we would like to

Page 5712

1 finish the testimony of this witness within this week. Actually, three

2 days is just only eight sittings. Normally we do not limit the time on

3 the direct or cross-examination, but since this week we'll two days on the

4 plenary meetings of the Judges as well as a sentencing hearing of another

5 case.

6 So, Mr. McCloskey, could you please indicate how much time you

7 need for the direct examination.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I hope only two sessions, though we'll see

9 how the witness does in his memory and things. But hopefully two

10 sessions.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

12 Mr. Karnavas.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. I can -- I've looked at

14 the indictment, and this gentleman is almost in the entire indictment, on

15 every count, mentioned. He's given, as I've indicated, close to an

16 80-page or 90-page statement. I think it's 86, to be exact. And then in

17 light of some new, or slightly different information that we're getting

18 from the proofing notes and in light of the way the statement went when it

19 was taken, and I think Mr. McCloskey will agree with me that it was

20 somewhat confusing. I will need two days. This is an important witness.

21 I intend to be extremely efficient, but there is a lot of material to

22 cover, Your Honour. This is -- and as you've seen me on several occasions

23 just last week, I didn't even ask a question. So, I think that you know

24 that I only ask questions when it's necessary. They may not be the right

25 questions, but at least -- so I will try to be as efficient as possible.

Page 5713

1 I think I can handle it within four to five sessions, but I truly -- and

2 it all depends on how responsive the gentleman is. It may turn out that

3 he's very responsive and I could do it in less, but he is a critical

4 witness, Your Honour. And I say this with all due sincerity.

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

7 When we were preparing for the cross-examination of this witness, we

8 thought maybe we wouldn't cross-examine him on anything else but the

9 general circumstances and their joint work after the war. Since we

10 received this proofing earlier this morning in which he mentioned Jokic in

11 relation to the events after that took place in Srebrenica, we believe

12 that we will have some question and that it will take some half an hour to

13 45 minutes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Well, Mr. Karnavas, I hope you could do your cross-examination in

16 four or five sessions, otherwise we have to keep this witness over the

17 weekend.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: It will be done, Your Honour. It will be done.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, witness. Can you hear me?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 5714

1 WITNESS: WITNESS P-135

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, you may sit down, please.

4 And shall we go to private session?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can have him do this first so we have this for

6 the record, Your Honour, and he knows and just private session for just a

7 moment.

8 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:

9 Q. Witness, if you could just take a look at that piece of paper.

10 Don't read it out, but can you tell us, is that your name on that piece of

11 paper?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go into private session just

15 briefly for some background questions.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (Redacted)

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Page 5715

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12 [Open session]

13 MR. McCLOSKEY:

14 Q. So how long were you in that school in Rajlovac near Sarajevo?

15 A. In 1992, I moved to Sombor to continue my education there.

16 Q. And how long did you continue your education there?

17 A. For another year.

18 Q. And then what did you do?

19 A. I returned to Bosnia.

20 Q. And what year was that?

21 A. In 1994.

22 Q. And why did you return in 1994?

23 A. Because I failed to pass my exams in the secondary military

24 school, and I wanted to return to Bosnia.

25 Q. And when you returned to Bosnia, what did you do?

Page 5716

1 A. I continued my education in the secondary school in Bratunac, and

2 I completed the third year of the secondary school for electrical

3 technicians.

4 Q. And then what?

5 A. Then I applied for the -- for a place at the academy in Banja Luka

6 to join the engineers.

7 Q. And was that a civilian or military organisation you wanted to

8 join?

9 A. I don't understand your question, sir.

10 Q. Was this -- in the engineers, was it a civilian engineering or was

11 it a military engineering organisation?

12 A. Military.

13 Q. Okay. Did you become a member of the VRS?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you get to this academy?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when did you start taking classes at this academy, just

18 roughly?

19 A. I believe that it was in June 1994.

20 Q. And how long did you study at this academy?

21 A. For almost a year.

22 Q. And did you have any -- were you given any combat experience

23 during that time that you were taking classes in Banja Luka at the

24 academy?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5717

1 Q. Where was that?

2 A. Are you asking me about my initial combat experience or my combat

3 experience in Banja Luka?

4 Q. Just tell us -- outline your combat experience that you were able

5 to get while you were at school in Banja Luka.

6 A. On two occasions, I went to the frontline. The first time I went

7 to Bihac and the second time I went to Grahovo, but I'm not sure. In any

8 case, I was sent to the frontline twice while I was at school in

9 Banja Luka.

10 Q. And what were you receiving training in in that school?

11 A. To become a member of engineers.

12 Q. And did you get any practical engineering-type experience in your

13 combat tours that you just spoke of?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Just briefly, what kind?

16 A. I learned about mines, the anti-personnel mines and the anti-tank

17 mines.

18 Q. And at the end of your schooling period, where were you sent?

19 A. I was sent to the corps, which was in Vlasenica, and after that, I

20 assigned to the Bratunac Brigade.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go into private just for --

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.

23 [Private session]

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. McCLOSKEY:

9 Q. Now, is there a particular event that you recall seeing related to

10 the capture of Srebrenica?

11 A. Yes. I remember the Serbian flag being hoisted on the Serbian

12 church in Srebrenica.

13 Q. And did you actually see that?

14 A. I'm not sure.

15 Q. Where were you when you remembered being -- hearing about the flag

16 or seeing the flag?

17 A. At Pribicevac.

18 Q. And do you remember if anyone was with you?

19 A. I remember that there were perhaps about ten people with me, and I

20 think they included Colonel Blagojevic. If you are referring to that. Is

21 that your question, whether Colonel Blagojevic was with me?

22 Q. Yes. That day the flag went up on the Serbian church in

23 Srebrenica. Is that what you remember?

24 A. I'm not sure, but I think that Colonel Blagojevic was with us

25 then.

Page 5721

1 Q. And do you remember roughly about what time of day it was when the

2 flag came up over the church?

3 A. It's very hard to remember the time, but I think it was about 6.00

4 in the afternoon.

5 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to the day before that -- well, sorry. First

6 of all, do you remember the date that Srebrenica fell?

7 A. I think it was the 11th, June or July, 1995.

8 Q. Okay. Well, then let me ask you: On the morning of the 10th, the

9 day before the flag first came up on the church, do you remember where you

10 woke up on the morning of the 10th?

11 A. Yes. I woke up in the headquarters of the 3rd Company in

12 Pribicevac -- I'm sorry. I have to mention that I have a problem with

13 remembering dates, and the entire statement I gave -- I mean, all the

14 facts I gave are true facts, but I cannot be sure about the dates.

15 Q. Okay. Well, that's why I want to make sure we're talking about

16 now the day before Srebrenica fell. Okay. So, again, where were you --

17 where did you wake up the day before Srebrenica fell?

18 A. At the headquarters of the 3rd Battalion at Pribicevac.

19 Q. And can you tell us what you did?

20 A. What I did when I woke up?

21 Q. Well, when you -- just outline what you did that morning, who you

22 saw, any orders you received, what you did. Just outline us your day, if

23 you could.

24 A. I was awakened by a strong explosion. I woke up. I wasn't sure

25 who all the people at the headquarters were. A messenger came and told me

Page 5722

1 that General Krstic was at the observation post and Colonel Blagojevic,

2 too, and that they were looking for me. I came to the observation point.

3 General Krstic explained to me that on the road to Slapovici from

4 Zeleni Jadar, there was some kind of a fortification obstacle, that they

5 cannot cross over with their technical equipment, so the ULT machine had

6 to be taken down and the road had to be cleared for them.

7 Q. So did he give you any orders?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What were the orders?

10 A. To go with the machine down there, to find the operator of that

11 machine, and to help that unit surmount that fortification obstacle.

12 Q. Do you remember where Mr. Blagojevic was when General Krstic gave

13 you that order?

14 A. I think he was at the observation point with General Krstic.

15 Q. Do you know, was he within earshot to have heard the order?

16 A. I'm not sure.

17 Q. Okay. And what did you do when General Krstic gave you this

18 order?

19 A. I called Colonel Blagojevic. I asked him what to do in this

20 respect, because I did not have this machine and I did not know how to

21 operate the machine and I did not have any fuel either. So I asked him

22 what to do with regard to this particular matter.

23 Q. Did you ask this of Mr. Blagojevic in the presence of General

24 Krstic or out of General Krstic's presence?

25 A. I called Colonel Blagojevic; I think that General Krstic didn't

Page 5723

1 hear that.

2 Q. Okay. And how soon after receiving the order from General Krstic

3 did you call Colonel Blagojevic?

4 A. 10 or 15 minutes.

5 Q. And what, if anything, did Colonel Blagojevic say to you?

6 A. I tried to explain the situation to him, that speaking quite

7 realistically I cannot carry out that task. He told me to try to make an

8 effort, that it was very important for me to complete that task. Perhaps

9 those were not his exact words, but that was the context.

10 Q. Okay. And then what did you do?

11 A. I went back to the command from the observation point. I found

12 the operator of the machine. I found the operator in charge of fuel. I

13 fueled up, and I took my men and went with the machine to Zeleni Jadar.

14 Q. And how many men did you have?

15 A. I'm not sure whether all the people from that platoon were with

16 me. Perhaps five or six men. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about the

17 figure.

18 Q. Did you know who the ULT belonged to?

19 A. I think it belonged to the engineering regiment from

20 Konjevic Polje.

21 Q. Okay. And tell us what you did with your men and this ULT that

22 morning.

23 A. I went to Zeleni Jadar and reported to the commander of the unit

24 who was there, down there. I consulted him as to whether it was safe for

25 me to do what I was supposed to do, because according to the explanation

Page 5724

1 of this assignment, I was supposed to go in front of the frontline with

2 the machine. I asked the commander of this unit whether it was safe to do

3 that, and his explanation was that it was safe. When we set out to

4 eliminate this material that was on the road, some weapons started

5 shooting at the machine. The machine was not an armoured machine and it

6 had no protection. In terms of such tasks or work, if I can put it that

7 way, we had to go back. We couldn't do it.

8 Q. And who was this commander of the unit down there at Zeleni that

9 you were talking to?

10 A. People said that this was Legenda. I don't know him personally

11 and I don't know whether that was him.

12 Q. So what did you do after that, after they started shooting at you?

13 A. We went back to the frontline that was held by our side.

14 Q. And what orders did you get then?

15 A. I went back to Pribicevac.

16 Q. Did you ever -- were you ever able to get rid of that obstruction

17 with the ULT?

18 A. I'm not sure whether the operator returned after that to eliminate

19 this material or whether the tanks and the Pragas went around the

20 obstacle. At any rate, I didn't manage to get rid of it.

21 Q. Do you remember telling us yesterday in my office something about

22 this obstacle being -- gotten rid of?

23 A. I think so, yes, because they did manage to reach the village of

24 Slapovici with all this technical equipment, too.

25 Q. Okay. And did anything happen on the way back to Pribicevac with

Page 5725

1 you and your men and the ULT?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us what you did on the way back and what happened.

4 A. One of my soldiers used the ULT to take a refrigerator and a TV

5 set, put it in the bucket of the ULT. As we were driving towards

6 Pribicevac, a jeep appeared, a PUH jeep, and General Mladic got out of it,

7 as well as a few policemen. One had a camera. He started shouting at us.

8 While others are waging war, you are stealing. A man from the security

9 slapped one of my soldiers, and I was given the order to take the machine

10 back to Pribicevac, together with the operator, and that the other

11 soldiers were supposed to run in front of the PUH jeep all the way to

12 Srebrenica.

13 I beg your pardon. And also that we had to unload everything that

14 was in the bucket and to leave it on the side.

15 Q. So did your soldiers have to run in front of Mladic's jeep towards

16 Srebrenica?

17 A. I don't think so. Srebrenica hadn't been freed yet.

18 Q. No, I mean did they have to run in front of the jeep from where

19 you were towards -- down towards Zeleni Jadar area?

20 A. Yes. I think they ran to the first curve ahead.

21 Q. Okay. And then what did you do the rest of that day, this day

22 being the day before Srebrenica fell?

23 A. I went back to Pribicevac. I reported to Colonel Blagojevic. I'm

24 not sure whether I found Colonel Blagojevic or whether I reported to the

25 commander of the 3rd Battalion, saying that I did not manage to carry out

Page 5726

1 the task. Again, I'm saying I'm not sure whether it happened on that

2 particular day, but I think that I did report to the commander of the

3 3rd Battalion. And that then via radio communications, I heard that

4 Cvijetin Petrovic had been wounded, that they were asking for an ambulance

5 to come and fetch him.

6 Q. Well, do you remember if you did any other work that day, the day

7 before Srebrenica fell?

8 A. Well, I opened the road leading to the minefield near Pribicevac,

9 so that the 4th Company could have access in view of the attack on

10 Srebrenica.

11 Q. Okay. Now, getting to the day Srebrenica fell, what did you do

12 that day before you were at Pribicevac with others in the afternoon,

13 evening, when the flag was raised above the church? Do you remember what

14 you did the morning and the afternoon of the day Srebrenica fell?

15 A. I'm not sure. I think -- I'm really not sure.

16 Q. Okay. How about after the flag was raised. In the evening, early

17 evening hours of 11 July, what did you do then?

18 A. I was at Pribicevac.

19 Q. And did you go anywhere from Pribicevac that day, the day

20 Srebrenica fell, that evening?

21 A. I'm not sure. It is possible that I went to the 2nd Battalion to

22 get a man there who would open the minefield for the unit that was

23 supposed to pass that way. I'm not sure. I think it is Lovanacki Potok

24 [phoen].

25 Q. On the day Srebrenica fell, did you go into Srebrenica at all to

Page 5727

1 do any work?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you receive orders to go into Srebrenica to do work?

4 A. I don't know whether it can be called an order. A day before

5 Srebrenica fell, I was standing at Pribicevac with Colonel Blagojevic when

6 a truck came with a launcher. And they tried to launch a rocket at one of

7 the hills where the enemy was. This rocket was not fired. It stayed

8 right there in front of the truck. I think that on that day when talking

9 to Colonel Blagojevic -- I mean, I cannot call it an order, but as I spoke

10 with him, I came to the conclusion myself -- I mean, during this

11 conversation with Colonel Blagojevic. Actually, we concluded together

12 that the enemy would try, if our units would enter Srebrenica, to leave

13 booby traps all over. I was supposed to follow our units with my team and

14 to try to deactivate as many mines as possible.

15 Q. Okay. So on the day Srebrenica fell and the VRS was able to go

16 into Srebrenica, why did you yourself go into Srebrenica?

17 A. To take care of booby traps, to eliminate them.

18 Q. Was that based on the -- your conversation you had the previous

19 day with Mr. Blagojevic?

20 A. Yes. And it was only natural -- it was only to be expected that I

21 should go to Srebrenica too, because actually everybody was there, all the

22 units. No one was left at Pribicevac.

23 Q. Did anyone order people to go to Srebrenica?

24 A. Well, I think that in the afternoon, General Mladic appeared and

25 said that everybody had to go ahead, that our units were advancing. I did

Page 5728

1 not hear this, though.

2 Q. Okay. Somebody told you about that?

3 A. Not me, not me. Everybody was talking about it, that the general

4 had been there and that he made everybody leave Pribicevac and go ahead.

5 Q. Where did you spend the night that afternoon/evening that

6 Srebrenica fell?

7 A. I stayed at one of the Muslim houses with my team of young men.

8 We spent the night there.

9 Q. Okay. And the next morning, the day after Srebrenica fell, what

10 did you and your men do?

11 A. We were working on demining booby traps.

12 Q. And how late that day did you work? When did you stop work?

13 A. Until late in the evening.

14 Q. And then what did you do when you stopped work?

15 A. We went to Bratunac.

16 Q. And why did you go to Bratunac?

17 A. Because I didn't have enough equipment left anymore for removing

18 the booby traps. I did not have fuel for my vehicle. I needed logistical

19 support.

20 Q. How -- which route did you take back to Bratunac, do you remember?

21 A. We could not go through Potocari. We went along the

22 Srebrenica/Oljavica road. Perhaps it's not that road. We went back with

23 a strange vehicle. We managed to get into that vehicle and take that

24 vehicle, because we did not have fuel for our truck.

25 Q. Whose vehicle was that that you got into?

Page 5729

1 A. I'm not sure. I think it was a UN Amphibia vehicle.

2 Q. Do you remember what colour it was?

3 A. I think it was white.

4 Q. And what time did you get back, roughly, to Bratunac on that

5 evening?

6 A. It was around -- maybe, I'm in the sure, but it was sometime

7 between 3.00 and 6.00 in the morning.

8 Q. And where did you go?

9 A. I went home.

10 Q. Okay. And when was the next time that you went on duty?

11 A. I went home. I took a bath. I had something to eat, and then I

12 went back to the command around -- I don't know about the time, but it was

13 before 8.00 in any case.

14 Q. And this is the second day after Srebrenica fell. Is that right?

15 A. No. We are now talking about the 12th.

16 Q. Well, if Srebrenica fell on the 11th and you spent the night at a

17 Muslim house on the night of the 11th, like you've described, and you

18 worked all day in Srebrenica on the 12th, then you went to Bratunac late

19 night and arrived home 3.00 a.m. the 13th. Would that be right?

20 A. Yes. Yes, you're right.

21 Q. That's okay.

22 A. I must repeat that I have a problem with dates and times. It was

23 eight and a half years ago, a long time ago.

24 Q. You were about 19 years old at the time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5730

1 Q. Okay. And -- so when you got to the brigade command at 8.00 a.m.,

2 what -- did you receive any instructions from anyone?

3 A. I tried to get in touch with Colonel Blagojevic; however, I am not

4 sure but I believe that I couldn't get in touch with him. I didn't speak

5 to him. I received an order to escort and monitor -- to monitor possible

6 groups of enemies and to try and find the record of the minefield on the

7 lines that used to be held by the enemy. I'm not sure who gave me that

8 order, whether it was Colonel Blagojevic, Lieutenant Colonel Pajic, or

9 some other officer from the command. Very often it would happen that my

10 senior colleagues could also give me orders.

11 Q. Okay. Did anyone that morning of the 13th tell you to go to

12 Srebrenica to do more booby trapping, before you got this order to look

13 for mine information?

14 A. I believe that I found Lieutenant Colonel Pajic. I really can't

15 remember, but I believe that I reported to Lieutenant Colonel Pajic and I

16 told him I didn't have enough equipment and enough men to go there, that

17 there were too many civilians in the town, that I can't remove booby traps

18 just like that, that it was not easy to do, that I needed fuel, that I

19 needed protective gear and things like that. But I'm not sure. I can't

20 claim that Lieutenant Colonel Pajic ordered me to go and search for the

21 record of the minefields. It is quite possible -- there is a strong

22 possibility that I myself concluded that this is something that should be

23 done. I can't say for a fact that I was given such an order or -- but I'm

24 sure that I gave a report to somebody that I couldn't do something like

25 that in Srebrenica.

Page 5731

1 Q. So did you go to Srebrenica that day, the 13th, at all?

2 A. It is possible. I'm not sure.

3 Q. Okay. And did a senior officer give you instructions or an order

4 to get the mine information?

5 A. I'm saying I'm not sure. There is a possibility that I was told

6 that my Lieutenant Colonel Pajic, but I'm not sure.

7 Q. Okay. So what did you do that day, on the 13th of July?

8 A. I was in the command. I'm not sure about the time, but in the

9 streets, in the town, I saw buses parked in the streets. There were

10 people sitting on those buses.

11 Q. What kind of people?

12 A. They were detainees from Srebrenica.

13 Q. And did you see any women on those buses?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. So what did you do? What did you do that day that you saw

16 these buses with detainees in Bratunac?

17 A. First I went to the primary school, Vuk Karadzic.

18 Q. Why did you decide to go to a school that day?

19 A. Because all of the buses -- there was a column of buses, and they

20 were all on the way to the school, that is, from the bus station, the road

21 went to the left, and all the buses that were parked were on that street

22 that led to the school. It is possible that I may have inquired and asked

23 people around whether there were any other detainees anywhere.

24 Q. What was your purpose of going to the school?

25 A. I went there to try and find somebody who could give me

Page 5732

1 instructions about where I could find a record of the minefields on the

2 frontline.

3 Q. What school did you first go to?

4 A. First I went to the Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic school in Bratunac.

5 Q. And were there any soldiers guarding that school when you got to

6 it?

7 A. The military police were in front of the school.

8 Q. Now, what unit -- what brigade were those military police from?

9 A. The Bratunac Brigade.

10 Q. And how do you know that?

11 A. They had the Bratunac Brigade insignia and white military police

12 belts.

13 Q. And did you recognise anyone that you knew from the Bratunac

14 Brigade military police around that school?

15 A. I recognised the Pinzgauer operator and that Pinzgauer was parked

16 in front of the school.

17 Q. And who was that Pinzgauer operator that you knew?

18 A. I knew the man's nickname Trocijevac.

19 Q. And what unit was he from?

20 A. I'm not sure but I believe he was from the sabotage platoon of the

21 3rd Battalion.

22 Q. And this Pinzgauer, can you describe this vehicle.

23 A. It's a classical military vehicle with an open top and a firm

24 metal cap.

25 Q. Was there anything mounted on it, any weapon?

Page 5733

1 A. There was a machine gun, 12.7-millimetre Browning machine gun

2 mounted on top of it.

3 Q. And did that machine gun have anything to do with the nickname of

4 your friend?

5 A. I believe so, although that particular piece does not have three

6 barrels as a matter of fact.

7 Q. His nickname has something to do with three barrels I guess then.

8 Is that right?

9 A. Yes. I believe so.

10 Q. Now, did you see anybody you recognised in particular from the

11 Bratunac Brigade military police that evening around this Vuk Karadzic

12 school?

13 A. I saw the commander of the military police. I believe that his

14 name was Mirko Stojanovic.

15 Q. Could it have been Mirko Jankovic?

16 A. I'm sorry. I apologise. I'm not sure. Either Jankovic or

17 Stojanovic. I'm not sure.

18 Q. Okay. And when did you first see the commander of the Bratunac

19 Brigade military police, this Mirko?

20 A. The first time I saw him at the entrance to the primary school.

21 He was trying to make three military policemen to get up to the second

22 floor of the primary school, where nobody wanted to go.

23 Q. And what did you see, and what happened? What did he say to these

24 guys? What did they do?

25 A. He asked them to go up there; however, they refused to carry out

Page 5734

1 the order.

2 Q. So what happened?

3 A. Nothing. These guys just didn't go up there.

4 Q. Can you tell us roughly how many military police from Bratunac you

5 saw in and around the school that evening.

6 A. I'm not sure, maybe 10, 15, maybe less or maybe more. I don't

7 know. I didn't count heads. This was not my goal. My goal was to try

8 and establish a contact with the detainees in order to locate a record of

9 the minefields.

10 Q. And were you able to get into the school?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you tell anyone under whose authority you were working?

13 A. Yes. I told a soldier at the entrance that Colonel Blagojevic had

14 ordered me to get in and try and locate a record of the minefields.

15 Q. Do you remember today if that was true or you were just saying it

16 so you could get in?

17 A. That is precisely why I said it. It made it simpler to get in the

18 school. Having heard Colonel Blagojevic's name, the soldier didn't ask me

19 any questions. So it made the whole thing much simpler for me.

20 Q. And had you seen any Muslims on the outside of the school before

21 you went into it at that time?

22 A. On the right-hand side I saw a leg, not a whole body, a leg.

23 Q. Well, was there -- do you think there was a whole body attached to

24 that leg?

25 A. I'm sorry. Is that a smirk on your face? Are you laughing?

Page 5735

1 Q. No. I'm just try to find out. Because it sounds like you just

2 see a leg lying there, and we know that -- I know that's not true, so I'm

3 just try to clarify whether or not there's -- you can describe what is

4 there. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be smiling. I shouldn't. I --

5 A. I explained to the soldier why I was there. And from that man I

6 heard a person screaming. I asked the soldier what had happened to this

7 man, and then the soldier told me that this man was up at the window, that

8 he was cursing their Chetnik mothers, that he was provoking them all the

9 time, and that finally he jumped from that window.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. That may have been the truth, but it didn't have to be.

12 Q. Okay.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's break time, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll break at -- we'll resume at 4.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Witness, can you tell us how many floors the Vuk Karadzic school

20 had.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I'm sorry, I didn't -- there was some distortion. I didn't

23 hear the answer.

24 A. Two.

25 Q. Thanks. And were you able to go into the school this first time?

Page 5736

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And where did you go?

3 A. To the second floor.

4 Q. And just to clarify, because some places the floors are counted

5 differently. So when you say "the second floor," is there a ground floor

6 and then a first floor and then a second floor above it?

7 A. The school did have a ground floor, a first floor, and a second

8 floor.

9 Q. Okay. And could you tell from your visit to that school how full

10 it was of people?

11 A. On the ground floor, there were not that many people. It was not

12 full.

13 Q. And the first floor?

14 A. What I could see were people in the hallways sitting down with

15 their hands on their heads. And they were some 2 and a half to 3 metres

16 from the stairway. I didn't enter any other rooms; I just entered the

17 hallway. 2 and a half to 3 metres were left empty for people to go up to

18 higher floors.

19 Q. The second floor, were there any people on the second floor?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How full from what you could see was the second floor?

22 A. The hallway was full of people.

23 Q. And who were these people?

24 A. I believe that they were the former soldiers of the Srebrenica

25 army, but they wore civilian clothes.

Page 5737

1 Q. Did you see any women at the school, any Muslim women?

2 A. No.

3 Q. At this time when you're at the school, did you see any injured

4 Muslims?

5 A. One Muslim was injured, and I saw him on the second floor.

6 Q. What kind of injury? Could you tell?

7 A. No. It was dark. I couldn't see too well. He was asking for

8 water. That's what I heard; he was asking for water.

9 Q. So what did you do when you went into the school? What did you

10 try to accomplish?

11 A. I tried to make contact. I tried to establish a contact with the

12 detainees in order to carry out my mission.

13 Q. And again, just what was the mission then?

14 A. To try and find somebody who would be able to tell me something

15 about the mined fields which had been left behind by the Muslims where

16 their defence lines used to be.

17 Q. Did you have any success that time at the Vuk Karadzic school?

18 A. What kind of success do you have in mind?

19 Q. Success in terms of finding mine information.

20 A. No, I wasn't successful.

21 Q. So what did you do after going to the Vuk Karadzic school? Where

22 did you go next?

23 A. Well, I was talking about the Vuk Karadzic school.

24 Q. Right. Where did you go after you went into the Vuk Karadzic

25 school?

Page 5738

1 A. I got in touch with a colleague of mine. He told me that he had

2 saw -- seen a person called Sejo, and that person was on the second floor.

3 He also told me that he knew him personally, and that person, I concluded,

4 would be my best chance at a contact with somebody. I asked him whether

5 Sejo could be found in one of the rooms or in the hallway, and I received

6 information from an elderly person. And I concluded that he wasn't Sejo

7 judging by his voice. The person who called me, who answered me, may have

8 been about 50 years of age. I told him that he was not the Sejo that I

9 was looking for, that the Sejo that I was looking for was a younger man,

10 somebody who was about 23 to 27 years of age. And then this Sejo called

11 out to me after that. I asked him to step out. I was standing on the top

12 of the stairway on the second floor, some 2 and a half to 3 metres from

13 the people who were sitting down there in the hall. At the beginning he

14 didn't want to walk up to me. He was afraid. He asked me who I was.

15 Finally he did come up to me. He asked for a cigarette. I had five or

16 six cigarettes; I gave him those cigarettes. He was not able to talk to

17 me in a normal fashion, so I could not expect any kind of assistance from

18 him.

19 Q. What do you mean he was not able to talk to you in a normal

20 fashion?

21 A. Maybe he was afraid or maybe he simply didn't want to talk to me,

22 because he didn't know him -- know me personally and vice versa, I didn't

23 know him either.

24 Q. Who was the person who had given you information to contact Sejo?

25 A. That was Goran -- I can't remember his last name. His nickname

Page 5739

1 was Bundeva. He was a mate of mine.

2 Q. Do you know what -- was he in the Bratunac Brigade?

3 A. No. He was not a member of the Bratunac Brigade. He was too

4 young.

5 Q. How old was he then?

6 A. 18, 19.

7 Q. And how was it that he had information about someone that might

8 have mine information?

9 A. Could you please repeat your question.

10 Q. Was this Goran the person that had told you to find Pejo [sic],

11 that Pejo [sic] might have mine information?

12 A. No. He didn't tell me that. He only told me that he had seen

13 Sejo in the school building.

14 Q. All right. Where were you talking to Goran when you learned this

15 information that Goran gave you?

16 A. On the way to the school, somewhere around there.

17 Q. Okay. And did you go to any other buildings around the Vuk

18 Karadzic school?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And where did you go next after the Vuk Karadzic school? What was

21 the next building you went to?

22 A. There was a building called the hangar. That was a building that

23 was used for the training of car mechanics from the secondary school.

24 Q. And where was that in relation to the Vuk Karadzic school?

25 A. On the back, viewed from the street. Perhaps 150 to -- perhaps 50

Page 5740

1 to 100 metres away from the Vuk Karadzic school.

2 Q. And had you marked that on an aerial photograph for us during your

3 first interview?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. We'll go over that at the end, I think.

6 Okay. And how did you get into the hangar? Did you have to talk

7 to anyone before going in?

8 A. On the hangar door, there were two civilian policemen standing

9 beside the door.

10 Q. And what did you say to them when you got there?

11 A. I said that I was trying to find the Sappers. I explained that I

12 needed to find a Sapper, a man, who could give me information about

13 minefields across the enemy line.

14 Q. And what did they say?

15 A. No problem.

16 Q. And what did you find when you went into the hangar?

17 A. I saw people inside in this building; they were not sitting. I

18 saw that some of them were smoking. Perhaps the atmosphere was a bit more

19 relaxed than at the school.

20 Q. Can you describe the hangar? Was it broken up into different

21 rooms? Is it one big open area? How is that? Can you just describe it

22 briefly for us.

23 A. There were three or four separate classrooms, and there was a big

24 hangar. And that is where vehicles were repaired.

25 Q. And where was it that you saw people?

Page 5741

1 A. They were not in the halls. The halls were empty -- the hall was

2 empty. People were standing around in the classrooms, and a number of

3 people were at the hangar.

4 Q. Can you just say roughly how many people you saw in the hangar

5 that night.

6 A. I have no idea.

7 Q. More than ten?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. More than 100?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Did the hangar have more than one ground floor?

12 A. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this. I didn't understand the

13 interpretation I got. Ground level?

14 Q. How many levels did the hangar have?

15 A. Oh, yes, yes. Thank you. One, one.

16 Q. Okay. So there was no stairs leading up?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you remember anything about what you saw when you saw these

19 people in the hangar that evening?

20 A. I think that at the entrance into the hangar, on the side in the

21 hall, I saw blood on the left-hand side, on the wall.

22 Q. Were these Muslim men in the hangar?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know if any of the Muslim men in the hangar were injured?

25 A. I'm not sure.

Page 5742

1 Q. Did you get any information about mines from any of the men in the

2 hangar?

3 A. Well, I managed. In one of the classrooms I handed out a pack of

4 cigarettes and I tried to talk to people; however, the information was

5 unimportant. It was not information that I could use.

6 Q. So how long did you stay in the hangar that time?

7 A. Perhaps five or ten minutes.

8 Q. And about how long had you spent in the Vuk Karadzic school before

9 going to the hangar?

10 A. Perhaps -- well, I'm not sure. Half an hour maybe.

11 Q. Okay. And where did you go after the hangar?

12 A. I went to the school. The name of the school is Slobodo, ime ti

13 je Tito; Freedom, your name is Tito.

14 Q. And how close is that to the hangar?

15 A. About 50 metres.

16 Q. And like you have before, can you tell us what happened at the

17 school. Did you -- were you allowed in?

18 A. Yes. I could come in. I explained to the people at the door what

19 my mission was. I got in. I tried to talk to people. Of course, again

20 nobody wanted to talk to me. Everybody just looked at me and nobody gave

21 me any information.

22 Q. Well, at this third school, do you know what sorts of people were

23 guarding it outside, where they were from?

24 A. I'm not sure.

25 Q. Do you know what the people that were guarding it were wearing,

Page 5743

1 what kind of clothes?

2 A. No, no, I'd have to guess.

3 Q. And in this third school, did you see any Serbs on duty inside the

4 school, when you went inside the school?

5 A. I think that -- no, no. I didn't find anyone before I got in.

6 Yes, I remember now. I remember now. There was a civilian policeman and

7 there was a military policeman. The military policeman showed me in and

8 he took me through all these room where these people were.

9 Q. Do you know what unit this military policeman was from?

10 A. I'm not sure. I think he was from the Bratunac Brigade.

11 Q. Why do you think he was from the Bratunac Brigade?

12 A. Because he had a uniform that was similar to mine. I'm not sure,

13 but I think he had a uniform that was similar to my own. When I say

14 "uniform," I'm referring to the colour, the same colour.

15 Q. You had described the Bratunac Brigade military police patch when

16 you saw people outside the Vuk Karadzic school. Did you see this guy in

17 this other school with any patches?

18 A. I don't remember. I saw white belt.

19 Q. Okay. I forgot to ask you about the hangar. Let me ask you --

20 sorry to take you back, but did you see any Serbs inside the hangar where

21 the Muslim men were, like guarding them or doing anything?

22 A. No. There was no one inside.

23 Q. Okay. Now -- and the third school near the hangar, how many

24 levels did it have, if you recall?

25 A. Sorry, two. Two.

Page 5744

1 Q. And do you know, were there prisoners on both levels?

2 A. No. I think that the prisoners were only at the lower level in

3 three rooms, in three former classrooms.

4 Q. Can you describe the atmosphere in these three classrooms, how

5 crowded it was.

6 A. The atmosphere was -- well, when the door would open, people were

7 afraid and they would look at us. That is how crowded they were. Not as

8 much as in the first school, though. People were not sitting on the

9 floor; they were walking around, smoking. And nobody wanted to talk to

10 me.

11 Q. Do you know roughly what time of day it is that you were going to

12 these three schools that are close to each other?

13 A. It might have been -- well, I'm not sure. Maybe in the

14 afternoon -- I don't know. I'm not sure. I would just have to guess.

15 Q. And did you get any information at the third school?

16 A. No. No one wanted to talk to me.

17 Q. I'm sorry. That is a confusing question. I should say the school

18 after the hangar, that's actually the second school. I take it your

19 answer is the same?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Did you get any rough idea how many prisoners were in this

22 third building that you had gone into that afternoon, evening?

23 A. It is very hard for me to make any guesses.

24 Q. Okay. And did you see anybody injured in this third building at

25 this time?

Page 5745

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were these also Muslim men in this third building?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And so what did you do after this third building? Can you tell

5 me -- I'm sorry, roughly how long did you spend at this third building?

6 A. 10 or 15 minutes.

7 Q. And then where did you go?

8 A. After that, I went back to the Vuk Karadzic school, in front of

9 the Vuk Karadzic school, where I had left my vehicle. I saw that it was

10 too risky for me to try to talk to people on the bus, because I had seen

11 three or four incidents of people breaking windows, swearing. I didn't

12 think it was safe enough for me to try to talk to these people. Maybe my

13 presence would cause more problems, because I had already seen that people

14 were not willing to talk to me.

15 Q. People that were breaking windows, were those Muslims?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And where was the bus or buses that you saw them in?

18 A. They were parked in the street, facing the centre of the town if

19 you look at it from the school.

20 Q. How near the front of the Vuk Karadzic school were the buses?

21 A. I don't know. I don't know. Perhaps about 100 metres, 200 metres

22 from the entrance into the building -- no, not 200. 100 metres at the

23 most.

24 Q. Okay. So what did you decide to do?

25 A. I walked around the entire line of vehicles. There were some

Page 5746

1 people in the field. This column of buses included two or three buses in

2 the street, towards the monument of that same school. I went that way. I

3 got to the monument. I think there were two more buses there. I realised

4 then that there was no point in trying to talk to these people, that I

5 could only upset them. I got into the car and set out towards

6 Konjevic Polje. I thought that most people had set out towards Tuzla, and

7 that our forces would probably have the largest number of prisoners in

8 Konjevic Polje, because -- well, that is what I thought at the time. It

9 was logical to expect that most people who did not want to be taken

10 prisoner would set out for Tuzla.

11 I came across our people in uniform along the way. I asked them

12 whether they saw a group of people anywhere who had been taken prisoner so

13 that I'd get any kind of information. However, I got my first answer

14 somewhere in the village of Kajici. A soldier in uniform, I think he

15 could have been from the Workers' Battalion. He was wearing camouflage

16 trousers and a blue workers' jacket. He was a man of 50 or 55 perhaps. I

17 put the same question to him as I had to everyone else previously. He

18 told me that he saw that there were prisoners at the school in Kravica. I

19 set out to Kravica, to the school there. I came to the parking area in

20 front of the school. A man was standing there.

21 Q. Let me ask you just a question or two. The person that you

22 thought was in the Workers' Battalion, what do you mean by the

23 Workers' Battalion? What unit is that?

24 A. That was a unit that had work obligation. They were not at the

25 front line. They were mobilised when necessary.

Page 5747

1 Q. And was this man armed that gave you the information?

2 A. Yes. Yes. He had some kind of a rifle on his shoulder.

3 Q. Were there any other armed people nearby him or with him?

4 A. No. He was alone and he seemed disoriented.

5 Q. Did you recognise him being from anywhere, his face?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So why do you think he was from the Workers' Battalion?

8 A. These people usually had those blue jackets.

9 Q. Okay. And when you got to the front of the school in Kravica,

10 tell us about that and what you did.

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 I walked up to him. I knelt by him. I asked him: What happened

Page 5748

1 to you? He said that he had been hit, that he felt very bad, that he

2 needed water. I asked him -- I mean, I said that in that condition he

3 shouldn't drink any water. He said to me -- or rather, he was in very

4 poor shape. He couldn't say much, but he just kept saying: "Water,

5 water," to me. Finally I did bring him some water.

6 Q. How bad was his wound?

7 A. I'm not sure, but he looked pretty bad to me, his face did. I

8 didn't summon the courage to ask him. I don't know. I don't know. It

9 had a different effect on me when I saw a man whom I knew.

10 Q. Do you remember telling us that you could see his insides coming

11 out?

12 A. No, not that much, but I did see that he had a wound, a very big

13 one on the left-hand side. I'm not sure that I saw his insides, but he

14 looked pretty bad.

15 Q. Now, going back to the person in a uniform you didn't recognise,

16 do you know, have any idea, if that was a civilian or a military uniform?

17 A. It was a uniform that I had not seen until then. There was a

18 pattern on the uniform that we had not used.

19 Q. What was the background colour, if you can recall?

20 A. Purple, I think.

21 Q. Did you see anybody that appeared to be in Bratunac Brigade

22 uniforms around the Kravica school or inside it?

23 A. No. I didn't see anyone, and I found that very strange.

24 Q. Do you remember telling Mr. Manning that the person guarding the

25 Kravica school was in a Bratunac Brigade uniform?

Page 5749

1 A. No. No. I don't remember that. It was a uniform that was very

2 different, but it would happen that people would find uniforms elsewhere,

3 believing that they were better.

4 Q. And can you tell us, were there any Serbs inside this school with

5 the Muslim prisoners?

6 A. No, I'm not sure.

7 Q. Can you tell us roughly how many Muslim prisoners you saw in this

8 school.

9 A. I'm not sure. I'd have to guess.

10 Q. Okay. More than ten? I don't want you to guess, but was it more

11 than ten as far as you know?

12 A. Yes, I think there were more than ten.

13 Q. Can you give us an estimate? I don't want you to guess, but

14 just -- can you give us some feeling.

15 A. Do I have to answer that question?

16 Q. No. You don't have to guess and you don't have to speculate. So

17 if you're not sure, you just tell us.

18 A. I'm not sure, but there were more than ten people.

19 Q. All right. Did you see anyone, while you were there, ever

20 treating your friend that had this serious wound?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And how long did you stay at the Kravica school?

23 A. Maybe 15 minutes, and out of those 15 it took me 5 minutes to get

24 water for my mate. There is a well right in front of the school.

25 Q. Did you get any information about minefields?

Page 5750

1 A. I asked people again whether anybody knew anything about the

2 person or the place where I could find records of the minefields, and

3 nobody said anything to me -- I apologise. Muhamed told me that -- I

4 can't quote him, but I believe that the point was that that person had

5 left for Tuzla, the person who was responsible for setting the mines.

6 Q. And so where did you go after the Kravica school?

7 A. I returned to Bratunac. I believe that it was pointless for me to

8 stay there, so I set out for Bratunac.

9 Q. Did you see any big buses or trucks in Kravica town or around the

10 road by Kravica or in front of the Kravica supermarket?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Where did you go in Bratunac?

13 A. At the entrance to the town, I heard and I saw a vehicle of the

14 military police of the Bratunac Brigade, and I saw Mirko, the commander,

15 who was calling people to help him and help the people who - I don't know

16 how to explain that - who were providing security. He explained that

17 there were 30 or 40 of us, that there were too many detainees, and that we

18 were not able to control all of them, there was too few of us. Having

19 heard that information, I reported to the school and I went up to the

20 second floor.

21 Q. At some point that evening, did you go back to the Bratunac

22 Brigade?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you go back to the Bratunac Brigade after you left the schools

25 and report the findings of your research into mine information?

Page 5751

1 A. My plan was to return from Konjevic Polje and to report to the

2 duty operations officer or Lieutenant Colonel Pajic and tell them whether

3 I was successful or not. However, at the entrance to the town, I heard

4 Mirko and I thought that that was more important. I went to the school

5 and I went up to the second floor.

6 Q. Do you remember telling Dean Manning that after the schools you

7 went back to the brigade headquarters and called on the internal phone,

8 which you called the induction phone, and that you spoke to your

9 commander, Blagojevic, and told him that you had not been able to find any

10 mine information? Do you remember telling Mr. Manning that?

11 A. I don't remember, but it is possible that I told him that.

12 Q. Do you recall telling me and Mr. Bruce Bursik the same identical

13 information yesterday in my office?

14 A. I'm not sure. At the beginning of my conversation with you, I

15 tried to explain to you that my recollection of these dates is rather bad

16 and that it was possible and that you should give me time to think. But

17 now at this moment, I would like to state that I thought it was more

18 important for me to go to the school and help the people there, because in

19 any case I -- my mission had not been successful.

20 Q. So are you withdrawing the statement you made to Mr. Bursik

21 yesterday, that you had reported to Blagojevic, or are you just mixed up

22 about when you did that?

23 A. I'm still confused. I'm not sure. It -- maybe I did go to the

24 command, but I'm not sure. It is possible that I went to the command and

25 reported on what I had done before I went to the school. That would be

Page 5752

1 the usual procedure, that is, reporting after a mission whether the

2 mission was successful or unsuccessful.

3 Q. I've got a copy of the transcript, and if you could go to page --

4 excuse me. In the English, it's page 39, line 14 -- excuse me, it's page

5 65, line 17. In your page it's page 39, line 14. Tell me if you remember

6 this.

7 Dean Manning: "So it's 1425 hours. We've resumed the record

8 conversation. You were telling me that you left the Kravica village and

9 you went back to Bratunac. When you got back to Bratunac, what did you

10 do? Did you go and report what you found?"

11 Your answer was: "Yes."

12 And Dean Manning said: "Think very carefully. You come back to

13 Bratunac, who do you report to?"

14 And you say: "I went to the brigade command and

15 Colonel Blagojevic was there. I think he was in a meeting, and I spoke to

16 him on the phone and I told him that I did not find any lists."

17 Dean Manning says: "What meeting was he in?"

18 You say: "He may have had a visitor. I was not present in any of

19 those meetings because I was so young, and anyway, all the duties had to

20 do with the chief of engineers. They were carried out by

21 Colonel Blagojevic because he was an engineer."

22 And then Dean Manning says: "I think so."

23 Then you say: "I was just his hand in the field as far as the

24 engineers matter."

25 Then Dean Manning says: "Did you make the telephone call

Page 5753

1 internally through the brigade, or were you in his reception area? Were

2 you part of the brigade commander's office?"

3 And you say: "It was the telephone 63, so-called induction

4 connection, induction phone, that's what it's called. That line."

5 Do you recall giving that answer to Mr. Manning?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that a true statement of what you told Mr. Manning?

8 A. Would you give me a second to think?

9 Q. Sure.

10 A. Thank you.

11 Q. You should also go on and look at page 39, line 47. And you go on

12 to say: "I told him I did not find any of the miners, engineers. I did

13 not have much time to talk to him, so it was a very short, a very brief

14 conversation. I wasn't any kind of long story. I just told him, I did

15 not find any of the lists from their miners."

16 And Mr. Manning asked you what happened after that. And a few

17 lines down you say: "Nothing. He just said 'okay,' and that was that."

18 Were you -- was this the truth when you told it to Mr. Manning?

19 A. When I spoke to Mr. Manning in Banja Luka, in the UN head base

20 there, there's probably a reason why I told him this. I can't remember

21 this reason at this moment. I'm not sure that I found Colonel Blagojevic

22 on that day in the brigade. I cannot confirm the information that I found

23 Colonel Blagojevic upon my arrival from Kravica in the brigade command. I

24 cannot do that. I can't confirm that.

25 Q. All right. So what do you remember after coming back from

Page 5754

1 Kravica?

2 A. I'm not sure. I may have gone to the brigade command, but had I

3 spoken to Colonel Blagojevic, I would remember that. I would be aware of

4 that.

5 Q. So where did you go?

6 A. I went to the Vuk Karadzic school, to the second floor.

7 Q. So do you think we made up those words that I read to you about

8 the conversation with Dean Manning, where you report on the induction

9 phone to Blagojevic?

10 A. Do I have to answer this question?

11 Q. Is there a problem with the question?

12 A. I don't want to say that anybody is lying.

13 Q. I'm asking: Did you say that to Dean Manning?

14 A. I've just explained to you that when I said this, that there was a

15 reason for me to say it. This was three and a half years ago. I can't

16 remember the reason now, and that is why I cannot confirm that I spoke to

17 Colonel Blagojevic upon my return from Kravica. And that is all.

18 Q. So you did, in fact, say that, what I had read, to Dean Manning;

19 you just can't remember why you said it?

20 A. Most probably.

21 Q. Okay. So where did you go after the Kravica school?

22 A. Again, I'm not sure. I may have gone to the brigade command to

23 report on my mission. Do you remember when we talked yesterday, I told

24 you that there was a state of confusion at the reception when I tried to

25 get in touch with Colonel Blagojevic. Do you remember me saying that

Page 5755

1 yesterday? I'm not sure whether I contacted Colonel Blagojevic or

2 Lieutenant Colonel Pajic or maybe the duty operations officer. That is

3 the only reason for why I cannot confirm at this moment whether I got in

4 touch with Colonel Blagojevic.

5 Q. Okay. Well, don't worry about who you might have gotten in touch

6 with. Just did you go back to the brigade to report to someone after

7 Kravica?

8 A. I'm not sure. I cannot answer this question by saying either yes

9 or no. It was a common practice to report on the mission, to debrief the

10 person who gave me the task. But at this moment, I cannot remember

11 whether I was in the command on that day and whether I contacted

12 Colonel Blagojevic or not. That is my problem. I cannot remember.

13 Q. You had brought up the duty officer or Pajic. So did you go back

14 and could you have spoken to one of them after Kravica?

15 A. Most probably, that was a common practice, but I cannot confirm

16 that I was in the command. I think I may have gone directly to the

17 school, but I'm not sure.

18 Q. Okay. What do you remember that night after Kravica?

19 A. I remember driving towards Bratunac.

20 Q. Did you go to the Kravica warehouse that night?

21 A. No. I'm not aware of a warehouse in Kravica. Are you referring

22 to military equipment?

23 Q. Did you ever hear about any Muslim prisoners being killed at an

24 agricultural co-op warehouse just outside of Kravica, towards

25 Konjevic Polje?

Page 5756

1 A. I didn't understand you. You asked me whether I was in a

2 warehouse, so I thought you referred to military equipment. Of course I'm

3 aware of this agricultural co-op in Kravica, and I heard that some people

4 had been killed there. But on that day I was not in the OKA co-op in

5 Kravica, and the reason why I was not there was that I had been

6 unsuccessful so far. Nobody wanted to talk to me, and I wasn't even aware

7 of the fact that there were people there as well.

8 Q. So you knew there were people at the Kravica school, but you

9 didn't know there were any people at the Kravica warehouse?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And so where did you go in Bratunac when you finally made

12 it back to Bratunac that evening?

13 A. I ended up on the second floor of the Vuk Karadzic primary school

14 in Bratunac.

15 Q. Why did you go back there?

16 A. I have already answered that question, sir.

17 Q. I'm sorry. I don't mean to ask you to repeat, but could you just

18 tell us again.

19 A. Because I had heard and I had seen a vehicle of the military

20 police, and I heard the commander of the military police asking people to

21 help him and his men guarding the huge number of prisoners that they had.

22 Q. Okay. So when you went back to help secure the prisoners, did you

23 see any shootings that night at the school?

24 A. At the school? You mean inside?

25 Q. Well, did anybody shoot anywhere at the school or the windows or

Page 5757

1 anything?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you explain what you saw that was that happened.

4 A. I was on the second floor of the Vuk Karadzic primary school in

5 Bratunac when one of the detainees climbed on the window, started cursing

6 the Chetnik mother, calling people names. I assumed that the Browning

7 started shooting from the Pinzgauer on the windows on the second floor,

8 aiming at the window where this person was standing.

9 Q. Did you see the bullets or did you know if the bullets hit

10 anywhere?

11 A. No, nobody was hit. I went downstairs. I tried to explain to

12 this person, whom I had seen standing on the back part of the lorry with

13 his hands on the machine gun. I tried to tell him that if he couldn't --

14 even if he couldn't care less about the people who were inside, that he

15 could still shoot somebody of our men. He wouldn't talk to me. He just

16 turned his head away from me. I personally tried to reason with this

17 person, although I knew that he was not the most pleasant of people. I

18 decided to -- not to pursue the argument, and I returned to the second

19 floor of the school.

20 Q. Was this the same guy you told us about before?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What's his nickname again? Sorry, I can't pronounce it.

23 A. Trocijevac.

24 Q. Okay. And did you stay until the next morning at the school?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5758

1 Q. And did -- what happened in the morning?

2 A. I'm not sure about the time. When buses appeared, those were the

3 buses that had been parked -- actually, the buses that had been parked set

4 out for Kravica. And after that, new buses started arriving and people on

5 the ground floor were shouting. And somebody said that up to 60 people

6 could get on one bus. And eventually all the people were taken away, were

7 bused away. After that, I went home. I continued my everyday tasks, as

8 before. I apologise. In the morning, I drew the attention to the

9 military policemen to the fact that somebody had broken a window on the

10 second floor in one of the school rooms, and I told them that it is

11 possible that some of the prisoners may have done something to hurt

12 somebody else. So the policemen were standing on one side, and I told

13 them that it would be best for them to stand on one side. All the people

14 left, and finally I left home as well.

15 Q. Okay. And perhaps you could go to, in your book, page 41, line

16 26. And in the English, page 70, line 3. And I want to ask you a bit

17 about this.

18 Mr. Manning says: "Please continue. It is 1440, explain."

19 And then you say: "It was complete darkness in the school. There

20 were quite a few people who were injured, so you could hear their sounds.

21 These were moans and cries of people who were dying."

22 Did you say that to Mr. Manning?

23 A. Yes. There were such people.

24 Q. That's a true statement, then, what I just read to you?

25 A. There were people who were screaming. One man repeated throughout

Page 5759

1 the night: Naser, what is the army doing to you? It's a same person who

2 had attacked a guard. On the second floor, there was a man who was also

3 screaming. I believe that he had a gunshot wound on one of his legs. One

4 of his legs was wounded, and that's why I stated that these were the moans

5 and cries of the people who were dying. Maybe this was too strong;

6 however, I would kindly ask you not to adhere to this particular

7 interview, because I cannot at this very moment confirm and remember all

8 those things that I could remember three and a half years ago.

9 Q. Okay. Well, let's --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the man who was

11 screaming was shouting: Oh, Naser, what are they doing to your army?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY:

13 Q. Let me just finish so we can see your whole answer.

14 You go on and say: "We had no way of helping them. I was there.

15 As I told you, it was an incredible situation. I wasn't there in any

16 position of authority. I was there on duty. I didn't come in any

17 function."

18 Are those statements true?

19 A. Yes. I had a role as a soldier there.

20 Q. Okay. "My only intention was to go there as a simple soldier and

21 to be there in order to keep some kind of a border. What I mean by this

22 is to also act as some kind of a link and to prevent anything from

23 happening, so as to keep talking, so that we can come to the warning. I

24 had no idea what their intended direction that I'm to go was, whether it

25 was Cazin or Tuzla. I had no idea what was gonna happen to them. And

Page 5760

1 there were different things that Muslims were thinking, but I believe that

2 I had contributed to not creating problems in the sense that I prevented

3 problems from developing."

4 Do you have any problem with any of those things I just read?

5 A. Everything is correct. All of that is correct.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's break time, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Could you please inform me how much time do you still

9 need, if less than 15 minutes, so we may continue to finish the direct.

10 But if longer than that, we will break.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have a few exhibits to go over with him and a

12 few other readbacks. So it may take a little -- it will take more than 15

13 minutes.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at quarter to 6.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. Please continue.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. If we can just show you a couple of exhibits that you've seen

20 before, I think. The first one is P672. We'll give you the original of

21 this, so you can take a look at it. Do you remember seeing this in my

22 office?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you remember working with Mr. Manning and making those red

25 marks and numbering them? Do you recall doing that work with Mr. Manning

Page 5761

1 and doing that a long time ago?

2 A. Yes, yes, I remember.

3 Q. If possible, if we could put the red parts on the ELMO. Witness,

4 if you could take the pointer and just look over at that. Are those --

5 did you make those red marks describing various locations around Bratunac?

6 Did you do that back with Dean Manning?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Could you -- it's probably easiest just to start with

9 number 1 and just tell us -- go down each of the numbers and tell us

10 briefly what they represent.

11 A. The first number is the brigade command, now the overhaul

12 institution. And then also there is the former ceramic tiles factory in

13 Bratunac.

14 Q. And what is number 2?

15 A. Number 2 is the military police building.

16 Q. And we're talking July of 1995. And number 3, and why don't you

17 point to it just so there's no doubt about what numbers we're talking

18 about.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Okay. And do you remember what that is?

21 A. That is the monument in Bratunac.

22 Q. Okay. And how about number 4?

23 A. Number 4 are the buildings where I survived.

24 Q. Okay. That's an apartment complex?

25 A. Yes, called Lamele.

Page 5762

1 Q. Okay. And number 5.

2 A. Number 5 is the Vuk Karadzic primary school in Bratunac.

3 Q. Okay. And number 6.

4 A. Number 6 is the building for training car mechanics from the

5 secondary school. It's called the hangar.

6 Q. Okay. And number 7.

7 A. Number 7 is the secondary school, which is called Slobodo, ime ti

8 je Tito; Freedom, your name is Tito.

9 Q. Okay. Number 8.

10 A. I think that number 8 is the SUP building, the SUP building. I'm

11 not sure. I think that's what it is.

12 Q. Okay. And the last one I think is number 9.

13 A. Number 9, number 9 I think is the bus station in Bratunac.

14 Q. Okay. And do you remember where you saw buses and trucks lined up

15 on that afternoon evening of the 13th?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you describe, using this map, roughly where you saw them.

18 A. Here.

19 Q. That's on the road in front of number 9?

20 A. In front of the bus station in Bratunac.

21 Q. Okay. And where else?

22 A. On this road here.

23 Q. And that's the long road between the bus station and number 5, the

24 Vuk Karadzic school?

25 A. That road is about 400 metres long.

Page 5763

1 Q. Okay. And --

2 A. The buses were here, on this road and on this road here, towards

3 the monument, here.

4 Q. Okay. And when you indicate "here towards the monument,"

5 you're --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- Indicating it's sort of under number 3 moving in the direction

8 towards number 5 along a road. And when you said buses were in front of

9 the Vuk Karadzic school, could you point out that road again.

10 A. I did not say the buses were in front of the Vuk Karadzic school.

11 That would have been here.

12 Q. I thought you just pointed to --

13 A. Buses were here.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. In this street, and I think the two or parked here in this area

16 over here.

17 Q. When you said "here in this area," you mean near the monument?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And you're saying that their buses were parked on this road

20 that comes out perpendicular towards the Vuk Karadzic school and goes

21 towards the bus station, sort of between number 5 and number 9. Is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And let me show you another exhibit. This is 671, but

25 don't put it on the ELMO because it's got your name on it. Just take a

Page 5764

1 look at it.

2 And if you could just hand that to the witness, if you could. And

3 we should have colour maps for Your Honours. I saw a black and white

4 one-up there, but let me just give you that one.

5 Can you tell us what this map is?

6 A. This map is the working map of the chief of engineers of the

7 Bratunac Brigade.

8 Q. Is this an actual copy of an actual map that you were using at the

9 time, in 1995?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It's got a date on it, doesn't it?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Okay. So was this in use after the fall of Srebrenica? I think

14 it's November, if I remember right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And can you just briefly tell us what this map shows.

17 A. The areas of responsibility of the respective battalions. What

18 can also be seen marked in light red are the mines and other explosives

19 that have not been removed, and the green areas are those that were

20 removed. And the dark red denotes the possible mines that could be there.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you. That's all I wanted to ask you about.

22 Now, do you remember telling Mr. Manning that one of the, I

23 believe, it was pioneers was killed by a mine, one of your pioneers was

24 killed by a mine near the time of Srebrenica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5765

1 Q. And I believe you told us at that time that you remembered his

2 first name was Dragan. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were we able to show you any document that helped you remember his

5 full name?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So now do you remember his full name?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what was that?

10 A. The late Dragan Andric. May he rest in peace.

11 Q. Let me just show you the page that we had shown you. It's Exhibit

12 Number 673.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for Your Honours, you have seen July 14th of

14 the health record of Bratunac. This is that same record, but we did not

15 put in the 12th. So this is from the 12th of July. The other exhibit

16 that Mr. Butler talked about was 474 -- 464, sorry.

17 Q. And what part of this document -- can you put this on the ELMO and

18 can you just tell us what part of this document helped you remember this

19 person's name.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. So you recognise that as the person that was killed on that day.

22 Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Now, on that same subject, do you remember me showing you

25 what is exhibit 159. It was a report that talked about 12 July, and you

Page 5766

1 may recall it talked about Mico Gavric heading some deminers. And one of

2 the Sappers being killed. Do you remember that? Do you remember reading

3 that document? I can get you a copy so you can see it again.

4 A. Yes, I saw that.

5 Q. Okay. The reference in that report regarding the Sapper being

6 killed, it didn't name the person. But is the information in that report

7 consistent with Mr. Andric being killed?

8 A. I don't know, probably.

9 Q. Was there anything in that information that you didn't think was

10 right, and I can let you see that document so you can just take a look at

11 it, like the location you remember you were telling us about, the location

12 of where you thought he was killed?

13 A. Yes, perhaps it would be a good idea if I had a look at it.

14 Q. And the B/C/S version is 159/A. And if we can just put the

15 English version on the ELMO so everybody can see it.

16 And what I wanted to ask you about just to help us clarify a

17 little bit about this document, if you can, had you ever seen this

18 document before, as far as you know, before I showed it to you?

19 A. No, I do not remember having seen it.

20 Q. Okay. And the part I want you to look at is it says: "Between

21 0500 and 0630 hours, the pioneers of the Bratunac Brigade led by Captain

22 Gavric cleared passage through a minefield or groups of mines towards

23 Budok [phoen] or immediately around Zuti Most/Potocari road. Members of

24 the 1st Company of the Zvornik special police unit led by a pioneer from

25 the Bratunac Brigade set off through the cleared passages toward Potocari

Page 5767

1 to create the conditions of the introduction of hardware. As personnel

2 were being introduced, a Sapper stepped on a prong. He was taken to the

3 Bratunac health centre where he died and in a way this incident slowed

4 down the advance."

5 Does any of the information I just read sound familiar to you? Do

6 you know anything about Mico Gavric in this operation, for example?

7 A. No. My information about this was that I came with the late

8 Dragan to the place where he was supposed to open the minefield, but that

9 locality was not mentioned in this document.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. I told you before that I did not have that much influence over

12 these people and that I did not have enough time to centralise the entire

13 demining team, hence the difference.

14 Q. Okay. One other document I wanted to show you, it's 406/B in the

15 B/C/S version. 406/A, the 5 July order for active combat under the name

16 of Commander Blagojevic.

17 Do you remember if you had seen this document prior to me showing

18 it to you in my office?

19 A. Did I see this document before you showed it to me in your office

20 you mean?

21 Q. Right. Do you remember at the time anyone showing that to you or

22 you being able to read it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. We have one other exhibit I wanted to show to you, that is

25 Exhibit 674. Do you remember seeing this piece of a map in my office?

Page 5768

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And can you point with the pointer -- are you able to see here on

3 this map of Kravica where the Kravica school is that you visited?

4 A. I think I can see that.

5 Q. Okay. Do you have the little pointer there. You can mark.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Okay. Is it -- there's some bigger buildings there with an SK

8 next to it. Does that mean skola, school?

9 A. Yes. I think it means skola, school, in that sense. The letter S

10 and then K.

11 Q. Is that where the school is that you went to see that night?

12 A. I was at the school during the day.

13 Q. Okay, during the day. Is that the same school?

14 A. I think that's the school.

15 Q. All right. And do you know anything about any reburial of any

16 bodies in Bratunac to some other location?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you remember telling Dean Manning that everybody knew about the

19 operation or that you could smell it? That's what I mean. That's the

20 thing that I'm talking about. Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What do you remember about that?

23 A. I remember that I was sitting at home. The window was open, my

24 room window, and I felt this incredible stench. I know what the stench of

25 decaying human bodies is. The following day I heard stories that children

Page 5769

1 in the street saw some legs, parts of human bodies. That's all I know

2 about this. This may mean that some graves were being relocated or

3 something like that.

4 Q. Do you have any knowledge about what did this, who relocated the

5 graves?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you work with Mr. Dragan Jokic before the fall of Srebrenica

8 or after on any work matters?

9 A. After the fall of Srebrenica, I worked with Major Jokic.

10 Q. And in what capacity? What did you do?

11 A. I was the officer responsible for demining the area of Bratunac,

12 the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade.

13 Q. So what kind of work did you do with Mr. Jokic from the Zvornik

14 Brigade?

15 A. I handed over all reports to Mr. Jokic, and the records compiled

16 by myself or others in respect of minefields.

17 Q. In what position was Mr. Jokic to you? Was he any kind of

18 superior or someone you looked up to in any way?

19 A. Mr. Jokic was not my superior, but -- I mean, he was not my

20 official superior, but he was a man who was appointed by the corps to

21 centralise information and to submit this information to IFOR or the

22 corps, I don't know. At any rate, he asked me to provide all information

23 to him about demining and also information that we had in respect of

24 existing minefields.

25 Q. Were you ever able to get any Muslim information about minefields?

Page 5770

1 A. Not from Muslims, no.

2 Q. From anyone else?

3 A. Yes. People were coming in. My deminers found notebooks they

4 found in the area with some records.

5 Q. And those Muslim -- were those Muslim notebooks engineering-type

6 records?

7 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that is precisely what I was collecting.

8 Q. And did you pass those on to Mr. Jokic?

9 A. To Mr. Jokic or to the commander of the 55th Engineering Regiment

10 from Konjevic Polje, at that time Major Avramovic.

11 Q. How did you find Mr. Jokic? Was he helpful and professional?

12 A. Towards what?

13 Q. Towards you, towards his job. Just what can you tell us about his

14 character?

15 A. Mr. Jokic often did not have any understanding for possible

16 improvements in our work or suggestions made to that effect. We often

17 entered debates of this nature. On one occasion in the Zvornik Brigade in

18 his office, Mr. Jokic, perhaps provoked by my question, when I received

19 orders from the corps to provide all information to the Zvornik Brigade so

20 that they would be centralised - and this should also have been provided

21 to IFOR in Tuzla, the database there - at that time, Mr. Jokic asked me to

22 hand over all the papers to him. I had an order in my hands from the

23 corps command, and I said to him: I'm sorry, sir, but I don't know you,

24 in respect of this document. He was very nervous and he did not have any

25 understanding, as far as I was concerned. Ultimately I did hand over all

Page 5771

1 these papers to him. I would not like to draw any conclusions. I do not

2 consider myself to be an educated person, and I could therefore not judge

3 an officer of higher rank than my own. I have mentioned the specific

4 situation to you, and you can draw your own conclusions.

5 Q. Didn't you tell us that you thought Jokic was someone you looked

6 up to as a professional engineer? Didn't you tell us that? That's why I

7 asked the question.

8 A. No, I didn't tell you that. I told you that about

9 Colonel Blagojevic.

10 Q. Tell us about Colonel Blagojevic, his character, what you think

11 about that.

12 A. I can give you an example, but I don't deem myself fit to judge an

13 officer who was my superior.

14 Q. But I mean a good example? What do you mean by "example"? Well,

15 if you don't want to talk about that, I won't ask you.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think I have any further questions,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 Any cross-examination?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I think I do have a little bit, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: If I could borrow the podium from Prosecution, I

23 would most appreciate it.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

25 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

Page 5772

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. Now, let me start with your background. As I understand it, you

3 said earlier that you went to a military secondary school. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And, in fact, when you were interviewed by the Prosecution back on

7 29 November, 2001, you had indicated that you left the school, that

8 military secondary school. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Today you told us that that school that had originally -- that was

11 originally located in Sarajevo had then been transferred to another

12 location. Correct?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Okay. Now, it's not quite accurate that you left. Isn't that so?

15 A. I don't understand.

16 Q. Okay. Well, let me be very blunt. Isn't it a fact that you were

17 thrown out of that school, sir?

18 A. That true.

19 Q. And you were thrown out because you had taken a truck, I believe

20 it's a TAM 110. Correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. You didn't have a driver's license at the time?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. You didn't have permission to drive that truck either, did you?

25 A. No, I didn't have a permission.

Page 5773

1 Q. You took it nonetheless and you went swimming. Correct?

2 A. Yes, you're right.

3 Q. And so you were thrown out of school, and that's how you ended up

4 back in Bratunac to finish up at that trade school. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And after that, you went to the academy, which I believe is in

7 Banja Luka. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That's a one-year programme?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And as I understand it, you were there to become an engineer of

12 sorts?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, you were asked a question about whether as a student you had

15 gone to the frontline. Do you remember being asked that question by the

16 Prosecutor?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. And one of the places you mentioned that you had gone to was

19 Bihac, to the frontline. Correct?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. And after about seven days, you escaped?

22 A. I beg your pardon?

23 Q. Okay. I thought I would get that reaction. After about seven

24 days of being there, you left your post without authorisation?

25 A. That is not true, sir.

Page 5774

1 Q. Okay. So it's not true that --

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Maybe we can go into a -- into -- is it private

3 session? Private session.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.

5 [Private session]

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Page 5775

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Page 5781

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22 [Open session]

23 MR. KARNAVAS:

24 Q. Now, sir, when you left, you were still a lieutenant, were you

25 not? That was my point, that you were a lieutenant in 1995 and you were

Page 5782

1 still a lieutenant back in 2002 - that's the point that I'm trying to -

2 make when you voluntarily left?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, the references to "me" and "I" and "I

4 feel," this personalising everything, which brings it to a level that it

5 doesn't need to go. So I would object to the personalisation. The same

6 thing can be said without injecting his own personage each time.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, again, I have an

9 objection to the cross-examination. Another untruth was told. I didn't

10 leave the army as a lieutenant; I left as a captain. What is this man

11 here trying to do?

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, just tell us the truth. I think that

13 you are here to help us, not to help the Defence counsel. I think the

14 Defence counsel has some questions which may be to the credibility. And

15 if you have some problems, just let us know, as you did now.

16 You may proceed.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Now, yesterday you met with the Prosecutor over there. Could you

19 tell us for how long. For how long did you -- y'all talk?

20 A. I arrived in the building of the Tribunal at 11.00, but I'm not

21 sure, and I left the building - again I'm not sure - but I think so it was

22 4.00 or half past 4.00 in the afternoon.

23 Q. Okay. And as I understand it, you offered to read your statement,

24 but you chose to read it after you and the Prosecutor had your

25 conversations. Is that correct? From the notes that I have, they gave

Page 5783

1 you an opportunity to read your statement, but you elected to read it

2 later, not at the beginning, prior to the questioning process or the

3 proofing process with the Prosecutor. Is that correct?

4 A. No. I didn't read my statement before the conversation with the

5 Prosecutors.

6 Q. That was because you chose not to? That was your choice, not that

7 they didn't give you the opportunity or the time. Correct?

8 A. I didn't ask to do it. I didn't know that I was entitled to do

9 it. The Prosecutor gave me the statement when I could not remember

10 everything that I had stated. So I did not read my statement before my

11 conversation with the Prosecutor, if that is your question, sir.

12 Q. Right. Now, he did show you some other documents. Correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, did you ask to see other documents to help your memory, or

15 was he showing you documents trying to prompt your memory into seeing if

16 you could recall something by what others might have said, what might be

17 contained in other documents?

18 A. The Prosecutor gave me all the documents in order to refresh my

19 memory.

20 Q. And was there a problem with your memory, that it needed

21 refreshing?

22 A. I still have problems. I can't remember what happened eight and a

23 half years ago. I can't remember exactly where I was at what time on what

24 dates.

25 Q. All right. Was your memory back on 29 November, 2001, when you

Page 5784

1 gave your statement?

2 A. No. Again, it wasn't really very good. Sir, if you have been

3 listening to me, I had said on three or four occasions that I am confused

4 about some of the events. I have told you everything that I can remember,

5 and as far as my statement is concerned, I gave the statement to the

6 gentleman in Banja Luka, but I didn't mention any specific times or dates.

7 I just covered a certain period of three or four days, and I told him that

8 I couldn't remember whether I had gotten in touch with Colonel Blagojevic

9 at a certain time. I cannot remember, and I adhere to that.

10 Q. Well, the gentleman that you spoke to yesterday was also in the

11 room part of the time back on November 29, 2001, when you were giving your

12 statement. And I'm wondering: Was he giving you any documents back then

13 to try to refresh your memory to see if you could recollect anything?

14 A. The first meeting?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. Would you give me a moment, please.

17 Documents were shown to me, but not to refresh my memory. It's

18 not that I can say that. Those were the documents that were shown here

19 today, the document with the map, the map of the chief of engineers of the

20 brigade, and the map where I circled the numbers from 1 to 9.

21 Q. Okay. Yesterday when you were being -- when you were having your

22 memory refreshed, did he show you any statements, say, from Mr. Petrovic,

23 the person that had been injured, to see whether he could -- whether you

24 could take a look at what he might have said as far as what he was doing

25 and the date when he was injured, to see if that would refresh your

Page 5785

1 memory. Did he do that by any chance?

2 A. The Prosecutor did not show me Mr. Petrovic's statement, but I was

3 shown a piece of paper. I don't know whether I have the right -- I mean,

4 I cannot remember this document exactly, but somebody's report was

5 contained in it, that Sreten Petrovic had been wounded in action. That

6 document was shown to me yesterday.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. So that I could orient myself in terms of when various events took

9 place, because I really have a problem in terms of connecting those three

10 days when things happened.

11 Q. Did he show you any reports by their own military analysts, for

12 instance, that would show that there's no evidence that anybody was in the

13 Kravica school on the day that you have indicated that you went and

14 visited? This would have been, I believe, the 13th of July?

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. I know that is a misstatement of the

17 evidence. I don't know what he's referring to. And if now the

18 Prosecution is personally on trial through this witness, I don't

19 understand the relevance. Our proofing notes provided the documents that

20 this man has seen to the best of our recollection, and I can agree with

21 Mr. Karnavas, those are the only documents that was shown to him. If he

22 wishes to make this argument that he brought up earlier, that's fine.

23 It's his right. But to -- trying to use the witness is -- I don't see how

24 that's relevant.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, it seems to me that you are

Page 5786

1 engaging in a fishing expedition, and I'm not questioning about your

2 question, but if you ask this question you better lay some foundations on

3 that.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay, Your Honour. Very well.

5 Q. One last question about the proofing. I don't want to go into it

6 too much, but I couldn't help when going through your 86-page statement, I

7 never see the name of Major Jokic in here. You never once mention him.

8 So my question is: What prompted you yesterday to have this exchange with

9 the Prosecutor about Mr. Jokic? Did you volunteer it or were they on a

10 fishing expedition?

11 A. This is how Mr. Jokic was discussed yesterday during the

12 conversation. We were talking about what I was actually looking for in

13 the schools and the places where prisoners of war were. I explained to

14 the gentleman that my mission was to try to find the records of minefields

15 of the Muslim side. You probably heard that.

16 As we continued talking, the gentleman asked me: Why were you

17 doing that? Why were you collecting this information? Because I was the

18 officer who was in charge of demining in the Bratunac Brigade, by the

19 Bratunac Brigade, with IFOR. Why was I in contact with Major Jokic?

20 That's when I mentioned his name. That's when the Prosecutor asked me:

21 What kind of contact did you have with Major Jokic? And then I explained

22 it to him and I told him the truth. I did not have any contact with Major

23 Jokic before Srebrenica or did I know Major Jokic before Srebrenica. Our

24 first contact was when SFOR or IFOR asked for the centralisation of

25 documents for demining to be sent to be processed at the centre in Tuzla.

Page 5787

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23 Q. Okay. Now you have your statement in front of you. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, in fact, I have noticed you take it with you, and I assume

Page 5788

1 that you brought it with you today, correct, your statement?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And I take it that at some point after meeting with the Prosecutor

4 there, you sat and you read your statement. Correct?

5 A. During the meeting, you mean?

6 Q. No, afterwards. Yesterday afternoon, last night, this morning,

7 you've read it. Correct?

8 A. Yes. I really made an effort to read it, sir -- not to read it,

9 but to see what I stated so that I wouldn't take up these people's time.

10 Q. Right. Exactly. And it just so happens that on page 1 - it would

11 be page 2 of the English version - and I'm quoting now from -- I have a

12 draft transcript, this would be introduced as D91/1. (Redacted)

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17 Q. That would be the very first page. On the English version, it's

18 line -- it's page 2, line 9 and 10. On your version, is it towards the

19 bottom of the page, about four or five sentences above the bottom of the

20 page on page 1.

21 A. Yes, I see that now. It is line 48.

22 Q. Did you see that when you read it? Did you see it when you were

23 reading your statement. Did you notice that you had stated to the folks

24 in Banja Luka that you had the post of chief of engineers of the Bratunac

25 Brigade? Did you see that when you were reading your statement?

Page 5789

1 A. Yesterday, yes.

2 Q. And, in fact, if we were to go through this statement, we would

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Page 5790

1 Q. Let me get this straight. You don't know whether you were

2 appointed or not?

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think this question is quite

4 clear, and we understand your point. It's time for the break.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Can I have --

6 JUDGE LIU: To finish this section?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Just a section, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

9 MR. KARNAVAS:

10 Q. Let me show you what has been marked as D90/1 for identification

11 purposes. Did the Prosecutor show you this document to refresh your

12 memory yesterday?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're at a little bit of a disadvantage --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We don't have the document.

18 MR. KARNAVAS:

19 Q. Have you seen this document before?

20 A. I probably had to see it. It is addressed to me, and I must have

21 seen it.

22 Q. Okay. What's the date, sir?

23 A. The 1st of July, 1995.

24 Q. Okay. And this is your -- this is an order, in a sense,

25 appointing you, correct, to your position?

Page 5791

1 A. Yes, sir.

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Page 5792

1 Q. And were there more than one platoon of engineers in the Bratunac

2 Brigade?

3 A. How do you see this?

4 Q. I'm just asking you. You have three squads, right, in the

5 third ...

6 A. Yes, precisely. In every battalion, there was one platoon

7 respectively consisting of ten men, so that is, in fact, one platoon.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Your Honour, we can break at this point.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, I have to remind you that this witness

10 is under the protective measures. So the document you used just now

11 should be under seal.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: And since you are going to bring up this question for

14 the future days, I hope you could remind this point.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll try to remember, Your Honour -- I will

16 remember.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I'm afraid that you have to stay in

18 The Hague for another two days. And please do not talk to anybody and do

19 not let anybody talk to you about your testimony, because you are under

20 the oath. Do you understand that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood you loud and

22 clear, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

24 And tomorrow we'll resume at 2.15 in the same courtroom, that is

25 in Courtroom I instead of Courtroom III. The hearing is adjourned.

Page 5793

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

2 at 7.06 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

3 the 8th day of December, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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