1 Monday, 23 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number
7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Before we hear
9 the next witness, there is a housekeeping matter I would like to deal
10 with. On the 25th September, 2003, the Prosecution submitted a written
11 request for the certification of an interlocutory appeal concerning of the
12 evidence in the Jokic case. After deliberations of this Bench, we believe
13 that the certification is not warranted for several reasons. Basically,
14 it boils down to reliability.
15 Firstly, the Prosecution accepts that the information obtained
16 through suspect interviews is unreliable, particularly when compared with
17 other sources of evidence, such as direct testimony and especially in view
18 of the fact the suspects need not make a solemn declaration. Secondly, as
19 the Prosecution itself stresses, the information obtained will only be one
20 part of his case and therefore of corroborating value rather than anything
21 else. As rightly and already held by the Trial Chamber, the unreliability
22 of information from suspects makes such evidence weigh very lightly in the
23 overall web of a party's evidence. Thirdly, any prevarication bears
24 suspect because it's difficult to establish either objectively prima facie
25 in the middle of a case without having heard or seen any of the other
1 party's evidence of the matter, and certainly because the unreliability of
2 evidence is purely speculative. And only as to the unreliability of the
3 evidence. Fourthly, lastly, considering the above, the evidence therefore
4 does not reach the level of the significance required by the Rule 73(B).
5 It does not involve an issue that would significantly affect the fair and
6 expeditious conduct of the proceedings or the outcome of the trial. And
7 that, in the Trial Chamber's opinion, an immediate resolution by the
8 Appeals Chamber will not materially advance the proceedings. Therefore,
9 the certification requested by the Prosecution is therefore denied. It is
10 so decided.
11 Are there any other matters that the parties would like to bring
12 to the attention of this Trial Chamber at this stage? Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good afternoon, Mr. President. I just wanted
14 to give the Court a brief idea of this week. We appreciate the Court and
15 counsel agreeing for another few witnesses. And I know the RS and the OTP
16 has worked hard to make those witnesses available. And in fact, we do
17 have the first two that are all ready to go. And we have a third that we
18 hope to have on Friday. It's looking good that he will be able to show.
19 It's, again, a matter of visas and these sorts of things and it's looking
20 good. And I would also like to alert the Court to one last potential
21 witness that we have just come across that we may try to squeeze in on
22 Thursday, if the Court is amenable. I've filed some papers in that regard
23 that is coming, so you can take a look at it and do of course whatever you
24 choose. And it is a personal security person for Mr. Blagojevic that has
25 some, I think, very important information to provide base -- on both sides
1 of the case, actually. It should be very short. We're not sure if
2 logistically we can make it. But, as I say, last, I promise, last we want
3 to end this, as you know. But we're going to try to do it logistically.
4 And I just would ask you to look at the papers and we can, of course --
5 we'll be here for your -- any comments.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm surprised to hear that the list is growing.
7 I suspected the last day of the Prosecution's case very soon, otherwise
8 all the proceedings have to be postponed. At this stage could I hear from
9 the Defence. Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. It's good
11 to be back. Frankly, I'm not disappointed that they're going to bring in
12 this additional witness. He's extremely exculpatory in our case. I think
13 it -- he should be helpful to Your Honours. And in fact, as I have
14 indicated on the record and I have indicated to Mr. McCloskey's colleague,
15 We welcome as many witnesses as they can drag up because they won't find
16 anything that will tie Mr. Blagojevic into any of the atrocities. And I
17 understand right now they're in a process of interviewing cleaning ladies
18 and people that made coffee and what have you down in Bratunac, so we
19 don't care. But we'll be ready, willing, and able to meet these other
20 witnesses on Thursday and on Friday.
21 I just would like to remind everybody that Mr. Blagojevic does
22 have a family visit the following week, and so I certainly do not want for
23 any witnesses to drag on to the following week. If we can avoid that.
24 And if the Prosecution intends to bring on additional witnesses, that they
25 do so after Mr. Blagojevic's family visit.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think this Bench will make decisions when we
2 receive any written submissions from the Prosecution, but as a principle
3 we hope that the Prosecution's case will draw to an end as soon as
4 possible, because according to our time schedule if we have any delay,
5 everything has to be delayed, especially for the 98 bis filings by the
7 Well, having said that, could we have the witness, please.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
11 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration according
12 to the paper the usher is showing to you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: MILAN NEDJELJKOVIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
18 Yes, Mr. Shin, your direct examination.
19 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
20 Thank you, Mr. Usher, for moving that aside.
21 Examined by Mr. Shin:
22 Q. Witness, could you please tell the Trial Chamber your full name?
23 A. My name is Milan Nedjelkovic.
24 Q. Just so it's clear on the record, could you please spell your last
1 A. N-e-d-e-l-j-k-o-v-i-c [as interpreted].
2 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, when were you born?
3 A. 1st of June, 1957.
4 Q. And where was that?
5 A. In Sikirici, Bratunac municipality.
6 Q. I'm just going to ask you a few questions now about your
7 background. Could you tell us briefly your education?
8 A. I am a car mechanic and a driver by occupation.
9 Q. What year did you finish high school?
10 A. In 1975.
11 Q. And what did you do after high school?
12 A. I took a job at Sase Srebrenica mine.
13 Q. And when did you begin working there?
14 A. 1978.
15 Q. Would you please just explain briefly what your job was.
16 A. About six months I worked as a car mechanic. And after that for
17 the whole time, I worked as a driver.
18 Q. Were you still working as a driver at the beginning of the war in
20 A. Yes, I was.
21 Q. Were you mobilised at some point during the war?
22 A. During the war from 1992 until September, I had a work obligation
23 at the mine -- or rather until October 1992.
24 Q. And what happened in October 1992?
25 A. I don't understand.
1 Q. In October of 1992, did you -- did you change your work? Did you
2 do something different?
3 A. I also worked as a driver at the mine.
4 Q. Were you at some point mobilised by the army?
5 A. In 1994 -- before 1994, or rather, towards the end of August or
6 early September I was again mobilised.
7 Q. And what unit were you mobilised into?
8 A. 3rd Battalion.
9 Q. Did you have a rank?
10 A. No, I didn't. I was just an ordinary soldier.
11 Q. And what was your -- what kind of job did you have as a regular
13 A. I kept guard on the position.
14 Q. And I'm sorry. Just so that the record is clear, this was end of
15 August, early September, in 1994. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did at some point your job change from being a guard to something
19 A. In late January 1995, I was reassigned to the brigade command as a
21 Q. And when you say "brigade," do I understand you to mean the
22 Bratunac Brigade?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. How many drivers were there at the Bratunac Brigade command?
25 A. At the time there were three of us.
1 Q. Can you tell us who the other two people were, please.
2 A. Savo Jovanovic and Pero, I also think that his last name was
4 Q. Would all three of you be on duty at the same time?
5 A. No. We took shifts. Two were on duty and one was off-duty. That
6 was the usual procedure.
7 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, could you please tell us what the name of your
8 superior officer was when you were driver at the command of the brigade.
9 A. Milomir Stanojevic.
10 Q. Could you tell us his rank or his position.
11 A. I don't know if he had any rank, but he was a headquarters
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Nedjelkovic, I'd like to take you now to the day
14 of the fall of Srebrenica. And I'd like to ask you first: Where were you
15 on the morning that Srebrenica fell?
16 A. I was in Bratunac on that day.
17 Q. And where in Bratunac were you?
18 A. At the brigade command.
19 Q. Were you on duty that day?
20 A. I think I was. Yeah, I'm sure I was.
21 Q. How was it that you learned that Srebrenica had fallen on that
23 A. I heard it on the radio in the afternoon when I went home for
24 lunch, and that's when I heard that Srebrenica had fallen.
25 Q. Did you leave Bratunac Brigade command during that day?
1 A. On that day?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I can't remember now.
4 Q. Do you remember who the other driver was on duty that day?
5 A. Pero should have been on duty.
6 Q. And where was Pero during that day, as far as you can recall?
7 A. I do not know. I cannot remember.
8 MR. SHIN: If I could just have a moment, please, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, do you recall that we - you and I and an
10 investigator from the Prosecution office - met yesterday to review your
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Just one moment, please.
14 I'd like to refer to you -- I'd like to refer you to some notes
15 that were taken of our discussion yesterday to see if that might help
16 refresh your memory. Just one moment, please.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: I would like the Prosecutor to first ask the
20 gentleman to repeat here in court if he recalls what he said yesterday,
21 before trying to refresh his memory or impeach him with any documents that
22 were generated by their investigator. Unless they're going to produce a
23 tape-recording so the gentleman can hear himself on the tape. So if he
24 could just first ask him what he remembers saying yesterday with respect
25 to this line of questioning before going to any documents. Again, as I
1 repeatedly have complained in this case, the proofing notes are always
2 done, they're rough notes taken by an investigator, and there's no way for
3 this gentleman to verify exactly what he has said if it hasn't been
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe Mr. Shin will ask that question.
6 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, if you could, could you recall what you told me
8 and Mr. Alistair Graham, the investigator, what you told us yesterday
9 about where the other driver was on the day that Srebrenica fell. Can you
10 recall that now?
11 A. One of the drivers was with the commander.
12 Q. Okay. And do you know where the driver and the commander were on
13 the day that Srebrenica fell?
14 A. I suppose they were at Pribicevac.
15 Q. And why do you think that they were at Pribicevac on that day?
16 I'm sorry, maybe that didn't come through clearly to the witness.
17 The question was: Could you just explain to us --
18 A. I didn't understand your question.
19 Q. Okay. I'll be happy to repeat it. Why is it that you think that
20 the other driver and the commander were at Pribicevac on the day that
21 Srebrenica fell?
22 A. They were there at Pribicevac while Srebrenica was going on, but I
23 don't know why they were there.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Shin.
1 MR. SHIN: Yes.
2 JUDGE LIU: Are we talking about the 11th of July, 1995?
3 MR. SHIN: I believe the witness's testimony is that this is the
4 day Srebrenica fell, and he knows that because he heard it on the radio.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I just want to make sure that we're talking
6 about the same day.
7 MR. SHIN: Okay.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm told there may be a correction on the
11 translation. The gentleman indicated where they were, not why they were.
12 I believe that's what he indicated, and I think it's on line --
13 JUDGE LIU: 22.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: 22.
15 MR. SHIN: Mr. President.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. SHIN: If I may, it may have something to do with the form of
18 my question, but I believe that was responsive to my question since I was
19 merely asking him why he -- basically what the basis was for him to think
20 they were there.
21 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could re-ask this question to see how the
22 witness is going to tell us.
23 MR. SHIN: Certainly, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, just for clarification, if you could, could you
25 please explain the basis you have for -- the grounds for which -- simply
1 the reason why you believed that the other driver and the commander were
2 up in Pribicevac on the day that Srebrenica fell.
3 A. I don't know. I can tell for myself where I was, but I don't
5 Q. But if I understand your evidence then, as far as you know the
6 other driver --
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour. Now he's asking the
8 witness to speculate. The witness testified that he doesn't know. He
9 knows about his own whereabouts. He indicated that he suspected that they
10 were up in Pribicevac. Now he's trying to get a confirmation. So I would
11 appreciate that we move on. The question has been asked and it has been
12 answered in more than one way.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we believe so. The witness has answered the
15 MR. SHIN: Okay. I'll certainly move on then, Mr. President.
16 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, at the end of the day that -- on that day that
17 Srebrenica fell in the evening, did you see the other driver return to the
19 A. I saw Savo when he returned.
20 Q. Was Savo the driver who was on duty that day?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And just to be clear on the record, I believe you had said earlier
23 that Pero was the man who was on -- who was the other duty driver that
24 day. Was it Savo or was it Pero?
25 A. Perhaps both of them. I cannot remember now.
1 Q. When you saw Savo returning to the headquarters, do you recall if
2 the commander was with him?
3 A. I suppose that he came back with him in the evening.
4 Q. Okay. Mr. Nedjelkovic, I'd like you to take you now to the next
5 day. This is -- we're going to be talking now about the day after the
6 fall of Srebrenica. Where were you in the morning of that day?
7 A. I was at the brigade command.
8 Q. What time did you get there?
9 A. Normally at around 7.00 or quarter to 7.00.
10 Q. When did you leave the brigade command?
11 A. I couldn't say exactly. I poured fuel into the tank of my
12 vehicle. I had coffee, so maybe half an hour later I left.
13 Q. And who did you leave with?
14 A. I drove commander Blagojevic and Savo Cvjetinovic.
15 Q. Okay. And just before we continue on that, one point of
16 clarification. When you spoke about the commander on the previous day,
17 the day that Srebrenica fell, you were also speaking of
18 Commander Blagojevic. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you told where you should go when these two gentlemen got
21 into the car?
22 A. I said that we were going towards Sase and Zalazje.
23 Q. Did somebody tell you to go in that direction?
24 A. Yes, they did.
25 Q. And just so that we're clear, did you pick up Mr. Blagojevic and
1 Mr. Cvjetinovic? Did they get into your car at the brigade command or did
2 you pick them up somewhere else?
3 A. I can't remember now exactly, but I think it was near the command
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. At this point, I know
7 it's a little technical, but the question was leading in nature. And I
8 think we're getting -- this is kind of sensitive. He could have asked
9 him, Where did you pick them up? So now that -- and as a result of the
10 question being suggestive, we got the answer we which got because the
11 gentleman doesn't recall exactly. I would appreciate -- I know that the
12 gentleman is trying to do a good job, but I would appreciate if there were
13 no leading questions as we inch along this particular line of questioning,
14 because it is rather important, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, is that an important issue, Mr. Karnavas?
16 MR. KARNAVAS: It is, Your Honour. I believe if it wasn't they
17 wouldn't be asking the question, number one. Obviously they're trying to
18 figure out where was Mr. Blagojevic and where they picked him up because
19 they're trying to tie him in somehow to meetings, places where others were
20 involved. So -- but in essence what I would like -- I don't know -- down
21 the road whether we're going to be in a sensitive area, and I certainly
22 don't want at this point to let go of this opportunity to point out to my
23 colleague on the other end that I would appreciate him asking open-ended
24 questions: Who, what, when, where, why, how, and explain, as opposed to
25 saying: Did you pick them up at the brigade command, which is suggestive
1 in nature.
2 JUDGE LIU: But the answer of this witness does not seem to me
3 that he was led by the Prosecution. He just said that he did not remember
4 now exactly. But it's near the commander's headquarters.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well -- and my -- Ms. Tomanovic tells me that
6 perhaps there was a mishap in the translation, so if the question could be
7 asked again. I don't want to suggest what he might have said, you know.
8 But ...
9 JUDGE LIU: But we believe that we have to trust the
10 interpretations of this Tribunal. Maybe there is a small nuances there.
11 In this way, since you raise this issued, Mr. Shin, would you please
12 repeat your question and try your best to give open-ended questions to
13 this witness.
14 MR. SHIN: Certainly, Your Honour. Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, on this morning, the day after the fall of
16 Srebrenica, where was it that Mr. Blagojevic and Mr. Cvjetinovic got into
17 your car?
18 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think it took place in front of
19 the command headquarters.
20 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, you mentioned that someone told you to go in the
21 direction of Sase and Zalazje. Could you please tell us who it was that
22 told you to go in that direction?
23 A. The people who were in the car instructed me which direction to
25 Q. Was there anyone in the car, apart from Mr. Blagojevic and
1 Mr. Cvjetinovic?
2 A. I don't think so.
3 Q. Did they both tell you, or was it one of them?
4 A. I suppose one of them. I don't know.
5 Q. Do you recall which one of the two it was?
6 A. Believe me, I don't know.
7 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, I had asked you earlier what time this was.
8 Perhaps you could help us by telling us whether it was before noon or
9 after noon when you left the brigade headquarters, just so that we're
11 A. In the morning.
12 Q. Okay. Do you know who -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that.
13 Mr. Nedjelkovic, who was Mr. Cvjetinovic?
14 A. Savo Cvjetinovic, he was an officer.
15 Q. Which unit was he an officer in?
16 A. I hadn't known him from before, before he came to the Bratunac
17 Brigade. And after that, he was at the Bratunac Brigade.
18 Q. When did he arrive at the Bratunac Brigade?
19 A. I cannot tell you. I cannot remember.
20 Q. What was his rank, if you can recall?
21 A. He had a rank, but I cannot remember which rank it was when he
23 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, you had explained that you were heading towards
24 Sase and Zalazje. We have a map --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. We have a map here if you could first explain to us in words the
2 itinerary you took when you started heading in that direction. Could you
3 please tell us what road -- well, first of all, where was the first place
4 you stopped?
5 A. First we went to Bratunac, Sase, and Zalazje. At Zalazje we
7 Q. Okay. When you got to Zalazje and you stopped, what did you do?
8 A. I had a flat tire on the road, so I had to change it.
9 Q. What did Mr. Blagojevic and Mr. Cvjetinovic do?
10 A. They just inspected the troops there.
11 Q. Which troops were they?
12 A. Bratunac Brigade.
13 Q. Was it any specific unit of the Bratunac Brigade?
14 A. I think it was the 3rd Battalion.
15 Q. How long was it that you stayed in Zalazje?
16 A. I cannot remember. I didn't look at my watch.
17 Q. And where did you go after Zalazje?
18 A. We went down to the Srebrenica playground.
19 Q. And when you say "we," do you mean all three of you or ...
20 A. I think all three.
21 Q. When you got to the Srebrenica playground, did you stop there?
22 A. We stopped there. We also inspected the troops there and then
23 returned up to Zalazje.
24 Q. And was it all three of you who returned up to Zalazje?
25 A. Yes. All three of us headed for Zanik and Likare, beyond Zalazje.
1 Q. Did you stop at Zanik and Likare?
2 A. We got stuck there in the mud.
3 Q. Where was the next place that you stopped?
4 A. When we returned, we proceeded via Srebrenica towards Jadar and
6 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, just to be clear, when you were in the area of
7 Zanik and Likare, apart from being stuck in the mud did you make a stop
9 A. Yeah, we stopped somewhere in that area.
10 Q. And what did you do when you stopped there?
11 A. They inspected the troops. That was where the troops were
13 Q. When you say "they," you mean Mr. Blagojevic and Mr. Cvjetinovic?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Do you know which troops those were?
16 A. The 3rd Battalion.
17 Q. Now, I'm sorry I interrupted you. You had explained that you were
18 proceeding via Srebrenica towards Jadar and Pribicevac. Where did you
19 stop next?
20 A. Pribicevac. But before Pribicevac we didn't stop anywhere.
21 Q. Okay. What did you do when you stopped at Pribicevac?
22 A. We arrived at Pribicevac. It was already dark and the lights were
23 on. We inspected the troops, the logistics troops, and then we went back.
24 Q. Were there any other troops there at Pribicevac when you stopped
1 A. No, I think it was just the logistics troops.
2 Q. What were the logistics troops there doing?
3 A. The command of the 3rd Battalion was there prior to the fall of
5 Q. And what was it -- when you had stopped in Pribicevac, what was it
6 that the logistics drops -- I'm sorry, the logistics troops were doing?
7 A. They were loading food items and other things they had there.
8 They were loading it into the trucks and packing, kitchen equipment and so
10 Q. Were there any other troops -- I'm sorry. Just one --
11 A. I didn't see.
12 Q. Okay. Do you recall how long it was you stayed in Pribicevac?
13 A. I couldn't say. It was dark.
14 Q. When you left Pribicevac, which direction did you go?
15 A. We took the road through Dimnici and went to Sase.
16 Q. Did you stop in Sase?
17 A. We didn't.
18 Q. Where was the next place you stopped?
19 A. Sase and then on to Bijelovac and then we came to Bratunac.
20 Q. And where in Bratunac did you go?
21 A. We went to the brigade headquarters I think. I parked the vehicle
22 there. It was quite late.
23 Q. When you got to brigade headquarters, were Mr. Blagojevic and
24 Mr. Cvjetinovic both still with you?
25 A. I think they were.
1 Q. And where did you leave Mr. Blagojevic?
2 A. I parked the vehicle there and went to sleep. I think the
3 commander also went to bed. It was quite late.
4 Q. Were there any other officers at the command headquarters when you
5 got there?
6 A. I don't recall. It was quite late. I didn't go inside.
7 Q. Before you think the -- you mentioned that the commander, you
8 think, also went to bed. Before that, did you notice that he went
9 anywhere else?
10 A. I don't understand. What do you mean "before"?
11 Q. After you left -- after Mr. Blagojevic got out of your car at the
12 brigade headquarters, did you -- did he go anywhere else that you saw?
13 A. I didn't see.
14 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, I'd like you to just take a look at the map
15 that's on the bulletin board to your left. Sorry, it's on your left.
16 Could you just explain to us briefly what that map shows.
17 A. Shall I get up?
18 MR. SHIN: For the record, Your Honours, this is -- this map is
19 marked P768.
20 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, if you could just please explain to us what the
21 red line on there is and what the numbers mean.
22 A. This is the road we took.
23 Q. And could you mark -- could you point to number 1 and explain what
24 that is.
25 A. Zalazje.
1 Q. And was that the place where you explained you stopped the first
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If you could continue -- if you could please continue on. On the
5 red line showing the path that you took, could you go to your second stop.
6 A. Number 2 is the playground of the sports field, that area.
7 Q. And if you could just follow along the red line to show where you
8 made your third stop.
9 A. Well, we said that number 3 could be here.
10 Q. I'm sorry. You -- did you say that number 3 would be there? Is
11 that what you said? I'm not sure if the translation was correct there.
12 A. Number 3, yes, yes, yes. So that part after Zalazje is number 3.
13 Q. Okay. And then could you please follow along the path that you
14 took to get to your next stop.
15 A. So we returned via Srebrenica. And then we went up to Jadar,
16 Bukov Glava, and Pribicevac, which is number 4.
17 Q. And then if you could follow again on that map to show us your
18 next stop.
19 A. We took this road to go back towards Bratunac, as far as I
20 remember. We went back to Bratunac.
21 Q. There's markings on there, are those markings you made,
22 Mr. Nedjelkovic, the red line and the numbers?
23 A. You mean the road we took, yes, yes. We marked that yesterday
24 with you, approximately the road that we took.
25 Q. And is that your signature on the left-hand side of that map?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay thank you. Yes, please.
3 Mr. Nedjelkovic, when you had explained it was dark when you were
4 at Pribicevac --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- do you recall what time it was that you got back to the
7 brigade headquarters in Bratunac?
8 A. It had to be after 10.00 because it normally gets dark in our area
9 at 8.00 or 8.30, and we would normally need at least two hours to get to
10 Bratunac. So it had to be after 10.00.
11 Q. When you explained -- when we spoke yesterday you mentioned that
12 it would have been about that time. Do you recall what you told -- do you
13 recall what you told the investigators -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase
15 Do you recall when you gave a statement to investigators from the
16 Prosecution on the 24th of January of this year?
17 A. I don't understand the question.
18 Q. I'll repeat. Do you remember that you gave a statement to
19 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor in -- on the 24th of
20 January of this year?
21 A. I do. I remember that I could tell that we left Pribicevac when
22 there was -- when it was still -- I remember that when we left Pribicevac,
23 my lights on the vehicle were on.
24 Q. Do you recall -- do you recall what you told the investigators
25 about the -- about the approximate time when you arrived at the Bratunac
1 Brigade headquarters?
2 A. I do not recall.
3 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, I'd like to refer you to the transcript of that
4 statement. And I'm going to refer you on the B/C/S version to page 5,
5 line 27, to the bottom of the page.
6 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, could someone please assist -- Mr. Usher, if
7 you could please assist.
8 Q. And I'd like you to read page 5 from line 27 to the bottom. And
9 then on the following page, on page 6, from line 1 to line 9. If you
10 could please read that to yourself.
11 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the English reference would be page 8,
12 lines 1 through 16 -- I'm sorry, lines 1 through 14.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here from between 9.00 until
15 MR. SHIN:
16 Q. Do you recall saying that to the investigators then?
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may --
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: -- interject here. I think if you look at a close
20 reading of the transcript, they are asking: "Did you remain on duty that
22 And the answer is: "I was usually staying until 9.00 or 10.00.
23 It depends on."
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Now, it doesn't say -- he's saying generally that
1 was his shift. Unfortunately we don't have then a follow-up question
2 because probably the investigator was happy with what he heard or wasn't
3 particularly listening, but on that -- he should have followed up by
4 saying: On that particular night do you recall what time you knocked off.
5 So I think they're trying to improperly impeach the witness with this
7 Secondly, I would suspect that they gave the gentleman an
8 opportunity yesterday to read this statement that they have in B/C/S, and
9 so when he did give an answer to which is recorded in their proofing
10 notes, that it was sometime around 10.00 p.m., that they would have given
11 him on opportunity to give an explanation. So I would object to this
12 portion of his testimony -- of his transcript from his statement being
13 used as a form of impeachment, because it is taken out of context.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think that the Prosecutor has finished
15 with his question yet. Let me -- let us wait.
16 You may proceed, Mr. Shin.
17 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President. I was merely trying to see
18 if that refreshed his memory as to the time that he returned to the
19 brigade headquarters.
20 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, just one final question on that. There's a
21 reference to your interview, the interview transcript. Does that refresh
22 your recollection more precisely as to what time you returned to the
23 Bratunac Brigade headquarters on that evening?
24 A. Well, if we left Pribicevac when the lights on my car were on,
25 that means that it was after 8.00. And I normally would need at least two
1 hours to get to Bratunac, so it had to be after 10.00.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you.
3 A. And I stated there that normally I would stay that long when I was
4 not on duty. Then I would stay until that time.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Nedjelkovic.
6 I'd like to take you now to the following day. This is now two
7 days after the fall of Srebrenica. Were you on duty that day?
8 A. That day -- on that day I was at the headquarters in the morning.
9 I went to the car shop to fix the tyre.
10 Q. Did you see Mr. Blagojevic on that day?
11 A. I know that his mother was ill around that time, and I think that
12 somebody was supposed to drive him to the doctor's. But I didn't go
13 because I was in the car shop. I don't know who else -- who went.
14 Q. Just to be clear, my question was whether you saw Mr. Blagojevic
15 on that day.
16 I'm sorry, was there an answer?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. Okay. Did you see -- did you see -- do you know where
19 Mr. Blagojevic -- I'm sorry. Do you know where Mr. Blagojevic's mother
20 was? You said that she was ill.
21 A. In Krasno Polje, at home. I heard that somebody told me that they
22 drove the doctor in a car. Some people from our headquarters took the
23 doctor down there. This is what I remember.
24 Q. Okay. On that day did you see -- did you leave the Bratunac
25 Brigade headquarters, apart from fixing those things that you mentioned
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. Did you see any officers at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters that
5 A. Well, I saw a lot of officers from elsewhere whom I didn't know at
6 around that time.
7 Q. Were there any officers you recognised?
8 A. During those days I saw General Krstic. I knew him because he was
9 the corps commander.
10 Q. Was there anyone else that you recognised?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Did you drive Mr. Blagojevic anywhere on that day?
13 A. Which day?
14 Q. On that specific day, two days after the fall of Srebrenica.
15 A. I can't remember.
16 Q. Do you remember when the next time you did drive Mr. Blagojevic
18 A. Well, I remember before the commander went to Zepa we went to the
19 bauxite mine in Podravanje for him to tour that area. There was a unit of
20 ours there.
21 Q. And if I could just go through that with you. You mentioned that
22 this was before Mr. Blagojevic went to Zepa. Do you recall how long it
23 was after the fall of Srebrenica, this day that you're -- this trip that
24 you're talking about?
25 A. I couldn't remember the date, truly, but it was before the
1 departure of the commander.
2 Q. But after the fall of Srebrenica?
3 A. After the fall of Srebrenica.
4 Q. Do you recall where it was that you picked up Mr. Blagojevic for
5 that trip?
6 A. I think it was at the brigade.
7 Q. What time of day was that, as far as you can recall?
8 A. It was daylight, sometime after the morning. Now, whether it was
9 before noon or not, I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell you what time it
11 Q. Was it only Mr. Blagojevic you picked up? Was there someone else?
12 A. One of the escorts came with us. I think it was Dragan.
13 Q. If you can recall, what was this person's last name?
14 A. Just a minute. I think it was Ilic.
15 Q. And what unit was this person from?
16 A. He was with the headquarters, same unit as we were in. He was an
18 Q. When you say the same unit, do you mean the Bratunac Brigade then?
19 A. Yes, yes. Bratunac Brigade.
20 Q. Okay. Which road did you take? You said you were going to the
21 bauxite mines. Which road did you take in that direction?
22 A. There are two routes. One went through Milici, and the other one
23 through Srebrenica, Podravanje, and Gunja. I think that we used both of
24 them. That's what I think.
25 Q. And you mentioned that you had -- that there was a unit there.
1 What unit was that?
2 A. There were some troops from the Bratunac Brigade there at the
3 positions towards Zepa near the bauxite mine. I think they were defending
4 the mine, but I'm not sure.
5 Q. What did you do when you got to the bauxite mine?
6 A. We went back to Gunja, which is where the bauxite mine is. The
7 commander toured the troops and then we went on up there to tour some
8 other troops, and then we went back.
9 Q. When you say you went on, could you tell us please where it was
10 that you went on to.
11 A. Towards Podravanje.
12 Q. And is that where it was that -- well, what did you do when you
13 got to Podravanje?
14 A. There were troops deployed there. There was a line there of some
16 Q. And what did Mr. Blagojevic do when you got there to Podravanje?
17 A. He was there talking to the troops.
18 Q. What did Mr. Ilic do when you were there?
19 A. Ilic was there as a security person.
20 Q. Did he leave the car then and -- did he leave the car then?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did he go with Mr. Blagojevic?
23 A. I don't know whether he went with him and how far.
24 Q. You said that after you stopped in Podravanje, then you went back.
25 Where was it that you went back to?
1 A. We went back to the brigade in Bratunac.
2 Q. Is that -- and where was it that you left Mr. Blagojevic?
3 A. I think at the brigade headquarters, but I'm not positive. I
4 think it was at the headquarters.
5 Q. Was Mr. Ilic with you as well when you returned to the brigade
7 A. Most likely.
8 Q. Do you recall approximately what time it was when you returned to
9 the brigade headquarters?
10 A. I don't recall.
11 Q. Do you recall if it was before noon or after noon?
12 A. After noon.
13 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, I'd like you to take a look at the second map up
14 there on your left.
15 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, this map is marked P767. It's a version
16 of a map that was previously admitted as P671. This has some markings on
18 Thank you, Mr. Usher.
19 We seem to have a logistical problem up there.
20 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, it's -- do you recall that I showed you this map
21 yesterday when we met and do you recall that I asked you to make some
22 marks on it indicating the routes you had taken to the bauxite mines?
23 Could you please explain -- oh, sorry.
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Could you please explain what the red lines are, the lines drawn
1 in red marker.
2 A. The two routes that one could take.
3 Q. And if you could just please briefly explain both of those routes
4 from the -- from Bratunac.
5 A. Bratunac, Konjevic Polje, Milici, and this is where Gunja is, the
6 bauxite mine.
7 Q. And you're pointing to number 1?
8 A. Yes, number 1. And this is approximately where Podravanje is and
9 number 2. This route takes you back via Jadar, to Srebrenica and
11 Q. And does that X, where that red X is, does that signify anything?
12 A. That's a mistake. When we were marking this yesterday, we made a
14 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Nedjelkovic.
15 Do you recall which --
16 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, Mr. Usher, if we could hold that up there
17 for one minute. Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, do you recall now which of those two routes, as
19 you've explained, which of those you took from -- on that day which you
20 took from Bratunac to the mines and which one you took from the mines back
21 to Bratunac.
22 A. We took one or the other route, but I couldn't tell you which one.
23 But one or the other.
24 Q. I'm sorry. For both going there -- going to the bauxite mines and
25 coming back, you took one of those two routes or for each leg going to the
1 bauxite mines, firstly. And then secondly coming back you took one of
2 those routes? I'm not sure if I'm --
3 A. Yes. I understood you. I think we used both routes, but I am not
5 Q. Okay. Mr. Nedjelkovic, in the days following the fall of
6 Srebrenica, did you see any buses in Bratunac?
7 A. One day I saw a few buses passing by when I was going from my
8 home. And I saw those few buses passing by.
9 Q. Do you know where in Bratunac those buses were?
10 A. They were running along the road in the direction of Konjevic
12 Q. Do you recall when this was more precisely, which day?
13 A. I don't know. It was after the fall of Srebrenica, maybe two days
14 after that. I can't say.
15 Q. Did you know where those buses were headed?
16 A. I heard that they were headed towards Kladanj. I just heard it on
17 the street.
18 Q. Did you see who was in those buses?
19 A. There was civilians, women and children. I didn't pay much
21 Q. And where -- when you say "they were running along the road in the
22 direction of Konjevic Polje," which road was that?
23 A. As I told you, when I turned from my house I took the main street,
24 and that is where I saw these couple of buses.
25 Q. And how far is your house from the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?
1 A. It's not far from the brigade headquarters. It took about a
2 couple of minutes or five minutes walking distance.
3 Q. Can you tell us -- can you approximate the distance of that?
4 A. I cannot say exactly, but as I told you, when you took a shortcut
5 from the brigade headquarters to the centre, it was between 300 and 400
7 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's time for a break.
9 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, in light of the direct and in light of
11 the gentleman's answers, this witness calls for no re-cross -- no
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much.
14 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any cross-examination?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. This witness
16 is unrelated to the events that took place in Zvornik.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
18 But anyway, we have to take a break at this moment. We'll resume
19 at 4.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage Judge Argibay has some questions
23 to ask.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good afternoon, sir. I wanted to ask you two
1 questions. The first one is: You mentioned --
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: You mentioned the playground in Srebrenica. Can
4 you tell us: Where is the playground in Srebrenica?
5 A. It is below the town when you cross over the hill of Sase about 1
6 kilometre below the town, 1 and a half kilometres. I can't say exactly.
7 JUDGE ARGIBAY: And the second question is: How far is the place
8 where Mr. Blagojevic's mother lived from Bratunac?
9 A. From Bratunac, well between 7 and 10 kilometres. I can't say
11 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Can you repeat the name of the place.
12 A. Krasno Polje or Osamsko [phoen]. I think that Osamsko is the
13 village and Krasno Polje is a hamlet.
14 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you, I have no more questions.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Are there any questions out of Judge's
16 questions? Yes, Mr. Shin.
17 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President. Just to clarify one point
18 out of Judge Argibay's questions.
19 Further examination by Mr. Shin:
20 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, you were describing the playground near
21 Srebrenica. When you indicate that -- when you indicate that it was below
22 Srebrenica, was it on the Bratunac side of Srebrenica or on the other side
23 of Srebrenica?
24 A. On the side. It is the so-called zero or towards Solocusa
25 [phoen]. If it is easier for you to understand. This residential area is
1 called Vidikovac.
2 Q. Perhaps if I could put my question a different way: Is it -- is
3 the playground north or south of Srebrenica town?
4 A. Shall I show it to you on the map?
5 Q. Yes, if it would be easier, perhaps you could just point to it.
6 MR. SHIN: If the usher could please assist him in going back to
7 the first map.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you go down -- so going down from
9 Zalazje and we reached the road that goes to the right to Bratunac and to
10 the left to Srebrenica, this is where the playground is. I hope it's
11 clear for you now.
12 MR. SHIN:
13 Q. Yes.
14 MR. SHIN: And perhaps if the -- if Mr. Usher could assist in
15 providing a blue marker to Mr. Nedjelkovic, he could just --
16 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, if you could please just circle that area where
17 you're indicating the playground to be.
18 A. [Witness complies]
19 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, while you're still standing, could you indicate
20 where the village that you had indicated Mr. Blagojevic's mother was, is
21 that on the map?
22 A. Let me see if I can find my way around this map. Somewhere here
23 by the river Drina.
24 Q. Can you be more specific than that or do you not know?
25 A. Yeah, there it is. Krasno Polje, in this area.
1 Q. Would you please circle that with a green marker.
2 MR. SHIN: Actually, I'm sorry, Mr. Usher, if I could ask you to
3 provide the green marker to Mr. Nedjelkovic.
4 And just for the record these are markings being made on P768.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somewhere around here.
6 MR. SHIN:
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nedjelkovic.
8 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I guess I do have one or two questions.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
12 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. Now, you were asked some questions with respect to the -- the
15 playground that is near Srebrenica, not inside Srebrenica. Is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you don't have to go into Srebrenica to get to the playground?
19 A. No, no. You don't have to go that way.
20 Q. Okay. I have no further questions. Thank you, sir.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may ask only
22 one question.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Am I right to say Mr. Blagojevic's native village
25 is opposite Srebrenica?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is it to the north from Bratunac?
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. And the playground, Potocari, is to the south from Srebrenica?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
8 Yes, Mr. Shin.
9 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, Mr. President, just one question arising
10 from the questions that were just asked.
11 JUDGE LIU: You want to clarify something?
12 MR. SHIN: Yes.
13 JUDGE LIU: In this case you are allowed.
14 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Further examination by Mr. Shin:
16 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, you have indicated in answer to Mr. Karnavas's
17 question that you don't have to go into Srebrenica to get to the
18 playground. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But as indicated on your map, the map that's currently showing on
21 the -- on that board, when you left Zalazje on the day after Srebrenica
22 fell and then went towards Pribicevac, you -- did you go through
23 Srebrenica town?
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may -- and I don't object to the
25 question, but this is -- this goes beyond the essence of Your Honour's
1 question, his question, my question. Now we're getting into a different
2 area. Now it appears that they're attempting to do direct examination all
3 over again. I don't object in principle, but I think if we're going to be
4 sticking to the Rules, let's stick to the Rules.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Shin, unless you assure me that this
6 question is related to the question about location of that playground, I
7 will not allow you to proceed in this way.
8 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, I just wanted to clarify that although
9 the playground is not in Srebrenica and that one doesn't have to go to
10 Srebrenica to go to the playground, I did -- wanted to clarify any mis --
11 some confusion there about whether Srebrenica was gone into -- any
12 confusion that may relate -- arise from that question, and really that's
13 my only question.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Exactly, Your Honour. Now they're trying to place
15 him into Srebrenica. Now he did -- he did have an adequate opportunity,
16 an unlimited opportunity to ask those questions on direct examination.
17 And so usually -- the gentleman can correct me if I'm wrong. The witness,
18 that is. The reason that he used near Srebrenica the playground of
19 Srebrenica is because that's an easy way to identify that particular
20 playground. It has a particular name to it. But if -- when we look at
21 his statement, it indicates -- he says: If you know the playground near
22 Srebrenica, then you know exactly the area where we stopped. Now, they've
23 had an opportunity on direct examination to listen to all the questions.
24 Again, I understand he's new to the case, however I think that if we're
25 going to follow the Rules, we follow the Rules. If not, I think latitude
1 must be given to us in these instances and the Court has been rather
2 restrictive, if I could use that word. So again, I would object to any
3 further questioning unless it specifically relates, Mr. President, to the
4 clarification that you've indicated.
5 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, if I might.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
7 MR. SHIN: Thank you. I believe on the direct exam,
8 Mr. Nedjelkovic did indicate on the map by explaining what the red marking
9 is, the course he's taken. I would submit that this is proper for
10 re-direct because he has indicated that and a question has come up over
11 whether one would have to go to Srebrenica to go to the playground,
12 potentially causing confusion between the map he's indicated where he's
13 gone through Srebrenica and the answer he gave to Mr. Karnavas.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, in this case you're allowed to ask this
15 question, but try to limit the scope of your question.
16 MR. SHIN: My question will be only what was asked, and I'll
17 repeat the question now.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
19 MR. SHIN:
20 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic -- I'm sorry, Mr. Nedjelkovic, on the day after
21 the fall of Srebrenica when you travelled, as you indicated on the map you
22 have to your left, when you went from Zalazje to Pribicevac you indicate
23 the road that you took. Does that road show that you went through
24 Srebrenica after you got to Solocusa?
25 A. We returned again to Zalazje and then we went to Pribicevac.
1 Q. And when you -- as you indicated on that map, you went down to
2 Solocusa and then just to clarify, that map -- you indicated that you go
3 through Srebrenica and then down towards Jadar. Is that correct?
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm not so sure that the
5 gentleman said that he went through Srebrenica. I don't object if just he
6 wants to go ahead and ask the question: Did you go through Srebrenica on
7 that particular day. And let's just get it over with. And then maybe the
8 follow-up question is: Did you stop in Srebrenica? What if anything did
9 you do in Srebrenica? What did you see? I don't mind that. So we don't
10 need to do this Kabuki dance.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think your question is very good.
12 Mr. Shin, just ask a straight question.
13 MR. SHIN: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Mr. Nedjelkovic, let me rephrase the question. When you went from
15 Zalazje then to Solocusa and then down towards Jadar, did you go through
16 Srebrenica town as indicated on that map?
17 A. We passed through but we didn't stop anywhere, and we went
18 straight to Pribicevac. I think we passed there, but I never stopped in
20 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours. Nothing further.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
22 Mr. Karnavas, if you have any questions on this issue, you could
23 put --
24 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour. I think we got finally to where
25 we needed to get to. And I apologise to my colleague if I am giving him a
1 hard time, but we are trying to keep a good record here.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
3 At this stage are there any documents to tender?
4 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President. We have two maps, one marked P768
5 and one marked P767, both with markings the witness made on them that we
6 would tender into evidence.
7 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?
8 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
12 These two documents are admitted into the evidence.
13 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
14 your testimony. The usher will show you out of the room. We all wish you
15 a pleasant journey back home.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe we have Mr. Waespi and the witness in
19 the wings, Your Honour. It's a little tight back here, so they'll be
20 coming in.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, while they're coming in, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: We were told that this witness would be testifying
24 tomorrow. And so obviously we certainly would like to hear the direct
25 examination. I'm not prepared at this point in time to do the
1 cross-examination, because we didn't bring the documents here that we need
2 for the cross. So again -- and I don't anticipate cross being very long,
3 but we were given representations that the witness would appear on Tuesday
4 as opposed to today. Had we known about this, obviously we would have
5 brought in and been ready. But I assume that they're going to take at
6 least one full session with this witness. So I'm just alerting the Trial
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, during the examining of the
9 witness, anything could happen, you know. Sometimes they are very long,
10 expectably long, sometimes they are short. I think that to be a lawyer
11 you have to be very prepared for any situations.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I am prepared, Your Honour, to commence; that's not
13 a problem. I doubt if I'm prepared to finish this witness. So if the
14 goal is to finish this witness today, I will not be able to accommodate
15 the Trial Chamber. But I am prepared to commence and to do a good hour
16 worth of cross-examination if necessary.
17 JUDGE LIU: Well -- so as I understand that the witness after the
18 next witness will be here on Thursday. Right?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: He -- yes, that witness, Your Honour, we had
20 scheduled for Friday because unfortunately the witness had a -- some
21 complications and couldn't get here until Thursday. The other witness
22 that is the subject of the motion that we were hoping to get, another one
23 of these short kind of witnesses, we were going to try to fill in for
24 Thursday since we had an open day anyway and it was an important witness.
25 I'm getting information by the hour about whether that -- that's now
1 fourth witness will be available Thursday. But we have fair confirmation
2 for a Friday witness, and that we have -- that was something we had
3 mentioned in the papers and I think it was in the letter that we sent out.
4 That person unfortunately wasn't able to get here until Thursday, so we
5 had to schedule him for Friday.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
7 In this way we have plenty of time. Mr. Karnavas, you may begin
8 your cross-examination tomorrow so as to keep your cross-examination in
9 tact. So when we finish the direct examination of this witness, we'll
10 break until tomorrow afternoon.
11 Well, could we have the witness.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 Well, Mr. Waespi, I understand that this witness is a protected
17 witness. Right?
18 MR. WAESPI: No, he's not, Mr. President. He has indicated
19 yesterday and also today that he does not need any protective measures.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
21 Well, I'm sorry, Witness. Would you please make the solemn
22 declaration, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: KRSTO SIMIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
3 Yes, Mr. Waespi.
4 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Examined by Mr. Waespi:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Simic.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Can you please state for the record your full name.
9 A. Krsto Simic.
10 Q. And when were you born?
11 A. 18th of January, 1956.
12 Q. And where was that?
13 A. Sikiric, Bratunac municipality.
14 Q. Now, do you remember having met me and an investigator in my
15 office yesterday?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And do you remember that I told you that you don't need to talk to
18 us if you didn't want?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Because we were giving you the rights as a suspect. Do you
21 remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And we also told you that you had the right to have a lawyer
24 present. Do you remember that?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. And you were fine and said that you wanted to talk to us.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And today in this courtroom, are you also fine with that and you
4 are able to answer our questions?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, can you tell us please the -- your profession.
7 A. I am a driver and an equipment operator.
8 Q. Now, for which company do you work?
9 A. I don't understand the question.
10 Q. I'm sorry. Do you work currently?
11 A. Not at the moment. I'm doing some plywood business now, but I
12 used to be employed before.
13 Q. And what was that job you did before?
14 A. I worked at the zinc and lead mine Sase, Srebrenica.
15 Q. And in July 1995 did you also work for that company?
16 A. I was with the 3rd Battalion assigned as a security structure for
17 the mine. It was a kind of work obligation.
18 Q. And this 3rd Battalion, was it attached to a specific brigade?
19 A. Yes, it was part of the Bratunac Brigade.
20 Q. Now, let's turn to July 1995. Did you exclusively work for the
21 Sase mine company, or were you also given other assignments?
22 A. I worked for the mine. I was with the 3rd Battalion. That was
23 the military 3rd Battalion.
24 Q. Now, what kind of vehicle were you operating in those days?
25 A. I drove an M-A-N truck. It's a German make, and the registration
1 plate number was ZV20614.
2 Q. And can you tell us the colour of this truck.
3 A. Orange.
4 Q. And how many wheels did it have?
5 A. Ten wheels.
6 Q. And can you describe the back of it. Did it have sides?
7 A. It's a dump truck, and it has sides and the back side. It was a
8 dump truck. It didn't have any tarpaulin on it. It has a kind of box
9 which is used for dumping.
10 Q. And how high were these sides?
11 A. Up to 80 centimetres.
12 Q. Now, in July 1995 did you receive an assignment to go somewhere to
13 do a work detail?
14 A. I was assigned by the mine manager, and these managers were
15 changed frequently, so I was instructed to report to the Bratunac Brigade
16 command, particularly the civilian protection unit.
17 Q. And you told us that it was your superior who told you that. Is
18 that correct?
19 A. The company director issued an order for all of us to report to
20 this utility company.
21 Q. Now, did you see anybody giving the assignment to your superior?
22 A. Military police came in a car. We were within the factory
23 compound. We were working on our trucks, maintaining and repairing them.
24 Q. And this factory compound, that was at the Sase mines?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, why do you know that these people that came in a car were
2 military policemen?
3 A. They had camouflage uniforms and belts.
4 Q. So what exactly did your superior tell you and your colleague?
5 A. My colleague and I were told to report to the command of the
6 Bratunac Brigade to report in front of the brigade headquarters in
8 Q. And I believe you said that there was a colleague with you. Can
9 you tell the Judges who this colleague was.
10 A. My colleague's name was Miodrag Obrenovic.
11 Q. Do you know where he is?
12 A. You mean now?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Unfortunately he died about a year ago.
15 Q. Now, did you and your colleague take your truck with you?
16 A. We started out with two trucks towards the Bratunac Brigade.
17 Normally it takes about a 15 to 20 minutes to get to Bratunac.
18 Q. And you had described your truck was the truck of Mr. Obrenovic
19 the same or was it different?
20 A. They were the same, except I had a newer truck and he had an older
21 model, but otherwise they were the same.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic. Just going back to the policemen, you
23 mentioned belts. Do you remember the colour of these belts?
24 A. White. The military police had white belts.
25 Q. Do you recall what time of the day it was that your superior told
1 you to go to Bratunac?
2 A. It was in the morning at around 9.00 or 10.00. I can't tell you
4 Q. Do you remember the day Srebrenica fell?
5 A. I can't remember the exact day. The 12th or the 13th or maybe the
6 11th. Two or three days before or after.
7 Q. Now, in relation to this day, the day Srebrenica fell, when did
8 you go to the Bratunac Brigade?
9 A. Two or three days later.
10 Q. Now, tell us what happened when you arrived at the Bratunac
11 Brigade command. Did you talk to anybody there?
12 A. When we arrived there in front of the headquarters of the Bratunac
13 Brigade, there was several other trucks parked there. There was military
14 police there. So my colleague and I lined up in the column. We were told
15 we had to go to Kravica. We didn't know what we were supposed to do
16 there. First we went to tank fuel at the gas station in Bratunac. We had
17 escort -- our column had escort. Then we tanked fuel, came back, and then
18 headed out towards Kravica.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic. Let me just go back. You told us that you
20 were told you had to go to Kravica. Do you remember who told you that you
21 had to go to Kravica?
22 A. Momir Nikolic was there on behalf of the military police. He had
23 other policemen around him.
24 Q. And you said he was there. So are you saying it was him who gave
25 you the order to go to Kravica?
1 A. Not me personally, but there were several of us there, four or
2 five or six drivers. We were all there together, and he explained that we
3 had to go to Kravica after we had tanked fuel.
4 Q. What was he wearing, Mr. Nikolic? Do you remember that?
5 A. Military uniform.
6 Q. And what were you wearing that day?
7 A. A military uniform as well.
8 Q. And Mr. Obrenovic?
9 A. Same.
10 Q. And you mentioned that there were other drivers who were waiting
11 with you. Do you remember what they were wearing?
12 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. I think they also had it, but I am
13 not positive whether all of them had a military uniform.
14 Q. Now, you told us that you were going to Kravica and you mentioned
15 that there was an escort. Can you tell the Judges who provided this
17 A. Military police escorted us. They rode in front of us and behind
19 Q. So are you saying that they had a car in front of you and a car
20 behind you?
21 A. Yes. That's right.
22 Q. And do you remember the kind of cars they had?
23 A. Passenger vehicles. I couldn't tell you the exact make.
24 Q. Now, you told us that there were other drivers. Can you tell us
25 where these --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What were these drivers or the trucks were from?
3 A. Well, from Bratunac, from various companies in the area, utility
4 companies, and so on. And I think that there was a truck from Zvornik
5 from a utility company there as well.
6 Q. Can you describe us this truck you mentioned which came from
7 Zvornik from a utility company.
8 A. It was FAP 13, an orange dump truck, or yellow one.
9 Q. Was it orange or yellow?
10 A. I think it was yellow.
11 Q. Do you remember who was the driver of this truck?
12 A. I didn't know the driver.
13 Q. I know it's a long time ago, but do you remember what time about
14 you were driving from Bratunac towards Kravica?
15 A. Well, it could have been at around 12.00 or 1.00, 1.00 p.m.
16 Q. Now, you told us about the drivers and their trucks. How many
17 trucks were there all together in your column that was driving from
18 Bratunac to Kravica?
19 A. As far as I can remember, there were five or six trucks in the
21 Q. Now, let's go to Kravica. Can you tell us what happened when this
22 column arrived at Kravica.
23 A. When we arrived in Kravica, we got off the main road and drove to
24 the agricultural co-op and we entered the compound. There were two
25 machines parked there. There was some other workers from civilian
1 protection as well, some soldiers. When we entered the compound, we
2 parked the trucks.
3 Q. Now, from -- coming from Bratunac towards Kravica, on which side
4 was the compound?
5 A. The agricultural co-op was on the left side, when riding from
6 Bratunac towards Konjevic Polje.
7 MR. WAESPI: If the witness could please be shown Exhibit P678.
8 Q. Do you recognise this picture?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Can you tell us what this depicts.
11 A. These are the facilities of the agricultural co-op.
12 Q. And can you tell us from -- so is that the agricultural compound
13 you discussed just a moment ago?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And the road in the middle of the picture, that's a road from
16 Kravica to Bratunac?
17 A. I'm not sure from which direction do you mean this from? Left to
18 right or vice versa?
19 Q. Let me ask you: From which side did you come?
20 A. From this side.
21 Q. Yes. Perhaps if you could use the pointer and use the ELMO,
23 A. [Witness complies]
24 Q. Perhaps if you could be given a marker. And I don't know which
25 colour Prosecution witnesses use. I guess it may be blue.
1 Can you just draw a line from where you came from when you entered
2 the compound.
3 A. [Witness complies]
4 Q. Thank you. And perhaps you can indicate with an R the beginning
5 of that line.
6 A. [Witness complies]
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 Now, you told us that there were workers from the -- I think
9 civilian protection there.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you describe these people to us. What were they wearing?
12 A. They wore blue work clothes. They were somewhat older.
13 Q. And how many people wore that?
14 A. I can't remember, but there were not that many.
15 Q. And you also mentioned that there were soldiers.
16 A. There were soldiers, yes.
17 Q. And who were these soldiers?
18 A. Soldiers. They wore fatigues. They were the soldiers of the
19 Republika Srpska I'm sure.
20 Q. Now, were these the soldiers who had provided escort to the column
21 or were these different ones?
22 A. They were there when we arrived there.
23 Q. And what did the escort members do? Did they stay as well or did
24 they leave once you had arrived?
25 A. They remained in the compound of the agricultural co-op.
1 Q. And do you remember what they were doing, the military police
3 A. I don't. They were there securing the area while we were working.
4 Q. Now, can you tell us, looking at this picture, where the trucks
5 were located, the trucks you and your colleagues were driving.
6 A. They were here.
7 Q. And perhaps if you could again use the blue pen and make a line.
8 A. [Witness complies]
9 Q. And please to the middle of those two lines you could indicate
10 the location with a letter T.
11 A. [Witness complies]
12 Q. Thank you, Witness.
13 Now, Mr. Simic, can you tell us what happened next?
14 A. What happened next was that there was a loader there and the
15 people who were in front of me started loading up bodies, assisted by the
16 workers of the civilian protection. This is how the loading started.
17 Q. Can you describe the loader to us, please.
18 A. The loader had a large shovel in front of it, four wheels, a
20 MR. WAESPI: If the witness could please be shown the Prosecution
21 Exhibit 354, which has been previously admitted. That's the sketch which
22 we kindly were given by the interpreters.
23 Q. Looking at this exhibit, you see nine different sketches. Can you
24 tell the Trial Chamber which one of those, if any, this loader resembles
1 A. [Witness complies]
2 Q. So you just pointed to the bottom left picture, and it's called a
3 Utovarivac. That's the loader you saw there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I believe you mentioned there was a second vehicle on the compound
6 when you came. Can you tell us, using this same picture, which other
7 vehicle you saw.
8 A. It wasn't a vehicle. It was a construction machine.
9 MR. WAESPI: And the witness just pointed to the picture, top
10 right. And it says in B/C/S, I guess, Bager.
11 Q. Now you told us that the loader was operating. Now, what was this
12 Bager doing?
13 A. It was parked there.
14 Q. Now, who was operating this loader?
15 A. The loader was operated by Radenko Crkovic.
16 Q. And what did he do with this loader?
17 A. They collected dead bodies, together with the workers of the
18 civilian protection, and they loaded them.
19 Q. And where did they collect these bodies from, and you could use
20 the picture again.
21 A. [Witness complies]
22 MR. WAESPI: The witness just pointed to an area where a C has been
23 marked with arrows to the left and to the right in the middle of the
25 Q. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you remember who it was who was putting this letter C and
3 the arrows into this exhibit?
4 A. Your question is not clear.
5 Q. Yes, I apologise.
6 Do you remember who was making these remarks on this picture
7 there, the C plus the arrows? Who did that?
8 I'm sorry, I'm probably still not clear. Do you remember having
9 talked to investigator Bruce Bursik some time ago?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. And do you remember having been shown this exhibit?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. And do you remember that you were asked to make certain lines and
14 remarks on it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And was it you who made this letter C?
17 A. Yes, it was me.
18 Q. Okay. I apologise for this little complicated procedure.
19 Can you tell us the letter B, which we see on the left side, did
20 you also make this mark?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what were you indicating when you made this mark "B"?
23 A. B means that this is where the truck was when the loading took
24 place, the truck that I drove.
25 Q. Now, you told us that Mr. Djurkovic was operating the loader. Did
1 you also operate the loader?
2 A. On that day, yes, I did. I operated it as well.
3 Q. And can you tell us who asked you to do that.
4 A. I received an order from Momir Nikolic to replace a colleague of
5 mine who couldn't do it any longer.
6 Q. And who was this colleague of yours?
7 A. Radenko Djurkovic. I was to replace him.
8 Q. And do you know why he couldn't do it any longer?
9 A. How would I know? Perhaps he was tired. He was just mentally
11 Q. So for how long did you operate the loader?
12 A. I loaded up two or three trucks and then he took over and I had to
13 park my truck and so on.
14 Q. Now, when you were operating the loader, can you tell us to which
15 part of the warehouse, of the building, we see on this picture you went to
16 collect the bodies?
17 A. Here, here, and here.
18 MR. WAESPI: The witness pointed to the last opening to the right,
19 the dark spot of the building.
20 Q. And perhaps you can again mark it with the blue pen, just a big
21 circle around these two openings, the one on the right and the one in the
22 middle you mentioned. Just a big circle around it.
23 A. [Witness complies]
24 MR. WAESPI: Okay. The witness made two circles and a line
25 connecting them with each other, the C being to the left side.
1 Q. Now, let's turn to the opening on the right side. What exactly
2 did you do? Did you enter the building with your loader?
3 A. No. The door was not large enough, so it had to be demolished.
4 The loader couldn't enter the building, just the bucket could go through
5 to a point because the opening needed to be made bigger. And then the
6 workers of the civilian protection brought on the bodies.
7 Q. How many bodies were you able to put into the bucket of your
8 loader at one time?
9 A. How would I know? They didn't count. Perhaps four or five
10 bodies, not more than that.
11 Q. Let me go back to your own truck. Do you remember how many bodies
12 were loaded onto your own truck?
13 A. Well, about 20, 21 bodies were brought, not as many bodies were
14 loaded as the capacity allowed.
15 Q. Can you describe the bodies to the Trial Chamber.
16 A. Do you mean how they looked like? How they were dressed?
17 Q. Yes, please.
18 A. Those bodies were dressed in camouflage uniforms and let's say
19 about two in my truck had kind of blue working clothes or -- that
20 resembled civilian clothes.
21 Q. Now, you just told us that you were also operating the loader at
22 one time when Mr. Djurkovic couldn't do any more. Did you tell that to
23 Mr. Bursik when he interviewed you a couple of weeks ago?
24 A. I didn't mention that to him, because nobody asked me. Nobody
25 reminded me.
1 Q. And just a follow-up of what you said about Mr. Nikolic when
2 you -- he told you to replace Mr. Djurkovic. Where was Nikolic when he
3 told you that?
4 A. Shall I show it on the photograph?
5 Q. Yes, please, Mr. Simic.
6 A. Here.
7 MR. WAESPI: The witness indicated to an area just left of the
8 letter B and below the signs with the letter T.
9 Q. Perhaps if you could make a little cross there where Mr. Nikolic
10 was standing.
11 A. [Witness complies]
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic.
13 Now, for how long did this process of loading trucks last?
14 A. Do you mean all trucks or just one truck?
15 Q. All trucks.
16 A. Between one and a half hours and two hours.
17 Q. Now, after a specific truck was filled, did this truck leave or
18 did everybody wait until everything was done?
19 A. Yeah, we all waited for all the trucks to be loaded and for us to
20 set off together.
21 Q. And where did you go to?
22 A. We were headed towards Bratunac and Kravica, the village of
23 Glogova, and that is where we stopped when we went down the slope. We
24 stopped there because we had military police securing us, and that is
25 where we stopped. That was about 4 or 5 kilometres away, as far as I can
2 Q. And you said you went down the slope. On which side of the road
3 was the slope?
4 A. None of that was -- the road that was running downhill. That is
5 what I meant by "slope."
6 Q. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Was there a time you left the road,
7 Bratunac/Kravica, and turned away?
8 A. Yes. We turned to the right. That's a very sharp curve, about 90
9 degrees when we reached Kravica [as interpreted], and that is a macadam
10 road which is about 3 to 500 metres long.
11 Q. The transcript says that you said: "When we reached Kravica." I
12 believe you said when you reached Glogova. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, Glogova. I didn't say "Kravica." So when we reached
14 Glogova, we left the main road by turning to the right.
15 Q. And you said you continued for 3 to 500 metres. And what did you
16 do then?
17 A. The convoy stopped. There was -- there were army people as
18 security there. I don't know exactly what. And we saw that a pit or a
19 grave was dug there. The men who were in front of me started unloading
20 the trucks with the assistance of the civilian protection members. That's
21 how it was.
22 Q. Can you tell us more about the pit or grave that was dug there.
23 How big was it?
24 A. It was about 50 metres long.
25 Q. And can you tell us how deep it was.
1 A. Approximately 1 and a half metres or 2 metres.
2 Q. You mentioned the presence of civilian protection members. Were
3 these the same ones you had seen previously in Kravica?
4 A. I think they were the same ones.
5 Q. You also mentioned that you were again escorted by members of the
6 military police. Did these --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did they stay with you at Glogova or did they go away?
9 A. They stayed there with us until the whole process was completed.
10 Q. At that time did you see Mr. Nikolic again?
11 A. He came there to the spot with a group of military policemen and
12 his deputies. I don't know. I couldn't recognise any of them.
13 Q. Was your truck unloaded as well there?
14 A. Yes, it was.
15 Q. Do you remember the time of the day that that happened, your truck
16 was unloaded?
17 A. It was dusk. It wasn't dark yet.
18 Q. Did you have to use the headlights of your truck?
19 A. It wasn't necessary to use them.
20 Q. Now, coming back to the grave, in relation to the macadam road, on
21 which side was the grave?
22 A. On the left.
23 MR. WAESPI: Now, if the witness could be shown the next exhibit,
24 and this is Prosecution Exhibit 679.
25 Q. Do you recognise this picture?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And what does it show?
3 A. It shows the road between Kravica and Glogova, and that is where
4 we turned off the road and proceeded for about 500 metres until we reached
5 this spot.
6 Q. Now, can you indicate the spot with a big cross, please.
7 A. Where the grave was or something else?
8 Q. Yes, please, where the grave was.
9 A. [Witness complies]
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic.
11 MR. WAESPI: And the witness has indicated that he came from the
12 left side, along that big road, and turned into a smaller road where we
13 see this smaller box at the crossroad. And then he went towards the
14 middle of the picture, where he indicated the grave was. And he marked a
16 Q. Mr. Simic, how long did it last until all the trucks were
18 A. I can't remember exactly. I don't think that we stayed more than
19 one hour, about one hour.
20 Q. Did you stay in your cabin all the time, or did you leave it?
21 A. I didn't leave my truck. I sat there all the time.
22 Q. Now, after the trucks were unloaded, what happened?
23 A. We unloaded the trucks, and then we headed towards Bratunac,
24 escorted by the military police. We stopped at a parking place not far
25 away from the command. It used to be a parking place of a company. We
1 parked the trucks there. A water tank came. We washed the trucks, and
2 then we left. We went home.
3 Q. And do you know whose water tank that was?
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean truck. Truck water tank.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I am informed, Your Honour, that perhaps that have
8 a segment of his previous answer with respect to where he parked the truck
9 and the location of the brigade that wasn't translated. So perhaps if he
10 could be asked to answer the question again. But I'm told that perhaps
11 the interpreter didn't pick it up.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, to make the matters more clear, Mr. Waespi,
13 would you please repeat your question so that to give the witness an
14 opportunity to answer it again.
15 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President.
16 Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.
17 Q. Witness, can you again repeat the location where you parked the --
18 your truck.
19 A. I parked my truck there on the place that used to be the parking
20 lot of Vihor Bratunac shipping company. And it is about 1.000 metres far
21 from the headquarters. The place is called Borkovic.
22 Q. Thank you. And perhaps the last question before the break: The
23 water tank, do you know whose water tank that was?
24 A. It belonged to the Bratunac fire brigade.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I think that's a convenient moment to
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, can I ask how long your direct examination will
5 MR. WAESPI: Not very long, Mr. President. 20 minutes, quarter of
6 an hour.
7 JUDGE LIU: Shall we finish your direct examination, then we
8 call it a day, because we have already promised Mr. Karnavas they could
9 do their cross-examination tomorrow afternoon?
10 MR. WAESPI: Certainly, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
12 MR. WAESPI:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Simic, what did you do the next few days?
14 A. I was engaged in Srebrenica for the next few days in cleaning the
15 town. It was very dirty. There was a lot of rubbish and litter and
16 waste, you name it. The town was completely dirty.
17 Q. And who told you to go there and clean the town?
18 A. The people from my company told me to report to the civilian
19 protection and that we should all go and clean the town.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic.
21 Now, let me turn back to these graves at Glogova. A few months
22 later, were you again concerned with a work detail in relation to these
24 A. After we had cleaned the town from all the garbage, a few months
25 later - I can't remember exactly - the same thing happened. We received a
1 call from the command. My company ordered me to report to the Bratunac
2 Brigade, and my colleague and I went there with the same trucks. We
3 arrived in front of the Bratunac Brigade headquarters where another couple
4 of trucks were there. There was -- were also military police there and
5 Mr. Nikolic was there. The military police escorted us to the petrol pump
6 in Bratunac to tank our trucks. And we headed again towards Glogova,
7 where we had been previously. We were awaited there by an excavator
8 loader. And I -- it must have been the same one that was used before. It
9 was dark, and the visibility was poor. We stopped there. We -- the whole
10 area was secured, and we started loading again with the backhoe. The
11 military police was there. It was dark when we set off towards Bratunac
12 and Potocari and Srebrenica. And we stopped in Zeleni Jadar.
13 Upon our arrival at Zeleni Jadar, a machine - I think it was a
14 loader but a smaller one - was there. We stopped there, and we saw that
15 there were two graves. I can't describe the shape and the size of the
16 graves for you because it was dark. And we unloaded the bodies that were
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic. Just a couple of questions to clarify.
19 You said that at Glogova there was an excavator loader. If you
20 could, please refer again to the exhibit you have been shown previously,
21 Exhibit P354. Can you tell us which excavator/loader was operating at
22 Glogova at that time.
23 A. This was the backhoe/excavator, and this -- the one in the bottom
24 left corner was the loader/excavator.
25 Q. So were --
1 MR. WAESPI: The witness pointed at the top middle picture and
2 also at the bottom left one.
3 Q. Did you see both machines operating in Glogova at that time?
4 A. Yes, I did. However, the one on the top in the middle was more
5 busy, so to say.
6 Q. Now, do you know who was the operator of these two machines? Do
7 you remember anybody?
8 A. I can't remember the person exactly, but the other excavator was
9 operated by Djurkovic.
10 Q. Now, for how long did this process of loading the bodies on to the
11 trucks last that evening?
12 A. It lasted for about one and a half hours or two hours. It was
13 dark and we couldn't see very well.
14 Q. Do you remember: Were just the bodies taken out or was it a
15 mixture of bodies and soil?
16 A. There were bodies mixed or not mixed with soil. It depended how
17 the excavator managed to handle the body.
18 Q. Now, perhaps you have told us already, but can you tell us on that
19 day how many trucks you were -- who were operating between Glogova and
20 Zeleni Jadar.
21 A. Four or five trucks.
22 Q. And do you remember: Were these the same trucks which you had
23 seen a few months before?
24 A. It must have been the case, except for one. And that one was from
25 the Srebrenica express company instead of the one that previously used to
1 be from Zvornik.
2 Q. Now, I think you told us it was dark or it was evening. Can you
3 confirm that, what day -- what time of the day it was.
4 A. It was between 7.00 and 8.00 p.m. when we reached Glogova.
5 Q. Now, you told us that in Zeleni Jadar you dumped the bodies. Did
6 you see a grave there?
7 A. Well, one couldn't see it clearly because it was dark.
8 Q. So you cannot tell the Trial Chamber how big it was?
9 A. No, I cannot because it was dark and one couldn't see.
10 Q. Do you know whether there was a machine there who was operating,
11 providing assistance?
12 A. There was a smaller loader than the one that was there.
13 Q. And if you could please again tell the Trial Chamber, using the
14 Exhibit 354.
15 A. It was a smaller machine than this one.
16 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't pick it up. To which picture did you point
18 A. [Witness complies]
19 MR. WAESPI: The witness pointed to the bottom left picture.
20 Q. And do you know who the driver was of that?
21 A. I don't know. It was dark. I couldn't see.
22 Q. Now, during that evening, either at Glogova or at Zeleni Jadar or
23 at both places, did you see Momir Nikolic?
24 A. Not that I remember. Maybe he may have come. It was dark, but I
25 personally didn't see him.
1 Q. Now, what happened after you finished the unloading?
2 A. We went back towards Srebrenica and Bratunac. And we parked the
3 trucks on the same parking place where they had been before. A water
4 cistern arrived and we washed the trucks again. And then we all went home
5 to bed.
6 Q. Just a couple of more questions, Mr. Simic. You told us that
7 Mr. Djurkovic couldn't finish his job as a loader operator. How did you
8 feel personally about that, what you were doing?
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, objection. Relevance. Particularly
10 in light of the fact that the gentleman is a suspect and may not realise
11 the consequences of his answer.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think so. I think this Bench would like
13 to hear the feelings of this witness on this particular issue.
14 Witness, you may answer that question.
15 MR. WAESPI:
16 Q. Mr. Simic, can you tell the Trial Chamber how you felt that day
17 when you loaded the bodies.
18 A. I felt terribly frightened psychologically, because perhaps this
19 very same loader could have buried my very same relatives during the war
20 in Bratunac. So I didn't -- it was very difficult for me.
21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to your relatives.
22 A. On the 14th of December, 1992, we were attacked by the enemy from
23 Srebrenica so that both my village and Bijelovac Sikiric villages --
24 village left with only a few survivals who -- all the others were either
25 wounded or killed. On that day, it's a little bit difficult for me to
1 reminisce on this now. I lost my 30-year-old brother. He had 50 wounds
2 in his body. He was massacred, slaughtered. I lost my mother, too. And
3 our other relatives were so mutilated that we could hardly recognise them.
4 Our houses were destroyed or burned and -- I don't wish to talk about it
6 Q. Let me just finish with one more question. Did anybody from the
7 civilian or military police question you in relation to these events in
8 July 1995?
9 A. No, nobody did, up until a few days ago when your colleague did,
10 the one who came to Bratunac.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic.
12 MR. WAESPI: That's it, Mr. President. I have no further
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you.
15 Thank you, Witness. I'm afraid you have to stay here for one more
16 night, and we'll continue tomorrow afternoon with the cross-examination by
17 the Defence team. So during your stay here in The Hague, you have to
18 remember that you are still under the oath. So do not talk to anybody and
19 do not let anybody talk to you about your testimony. Do you understand
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Have a good rest.
23 Well, we'll resume tomorrow afternoon at 2.15 in the same
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
1 at 5.33 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
2 the 24th day of February, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.