1 Friday, 23 April 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
9 Good morning, everybody.
10 Mr. Karnavas, are you ready for the next witness?
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, yes.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
13 Could we have the next witness, please.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE LIU: Would you make the solemn declaration, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: PERICA VASOVIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
23 Mr. Karnavas.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:
1 Q. Good morning, sir.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. Would you please tell us what your name is.
4 A. My name is Perica Vasovic.
5 Q. Would you please tell us your last name letter by letter.
6 A. V-a-s-o-v-i-c.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Vasovic, where are you from?
8 A. I live in Bratunac now.
9 Q. How long have you lived in Bratunac?
10 A. Since 1984.
11 Q. And before moving to Bratunac, where were you living?
12 A. In Andrijevica in Montenegro.
13 Q. Would you please tell us what your educational background is.
14 A. I completed secondary school for economics and the higher school,
15 the post-secondary two-year school for economics.
16 Q. Okay. What brought you to Bratunac in 1984?
17 A. In 1984 it was because of my job, and this is where I established
18 my family.
19 Q. All right. And what job was that?
20 A. In the company Geosonda with its headquarters in Belgrade, which
21 was conducting land surveying for mining purposes in Srebrenica.
22 Q. And today where do you work?
23 A. I am now employed in the municipal veterans organisation of
25 Q. All right. Are you a veteran of the war yourself?
1 A. Yes, until the 14th of December, 1992. I was a soldier, then I
2 was wounded and that was when I stopped being a member of the Army of
3 Republika Srpska for the reason that I became a war invalid.
4 Q. All right. And after you were injured, did you perform any work
5 known as working obligation?
6 A. Yes. From February 1995.
7 Q. What sort of work was that?
8 A. In the composite agricultural cooperative in Bratunac. I was in
9 charge of logistics and the sale of agricultural products.
10 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention to July 1995 at a period when
11 Srebrenica fell. And as a point of reference, Srebrenica fell on 11 July
12 1995. Okay?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall where you were and what you were doing on 11 July
16 A. On the 11th of July, 1995, I was performing my regular work
17 connected with the sale of raspberries in Bratunac.
18 Q. All right. Well, were you working for yourself or were you
19 working for an organisation, an enterprise?
20 A. We were working for the composite agricultural co-op, which at the
21 time was socially owned. So I was not working for myself.
22 Q. All right. And who was the director or the manager of the co-op
23 at that point in time?
24 A. The director was Jovan Nikolic.
25 Q. And he also goes by Jole. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That's his nickname. Now, where exactly were you on the 11th? Do
3 you recall? Were you in Bratunac or were you someplace else?
4 A. I was on the outskirts of Bratunac, because the co-op refrigerator
5 is located on the road between Bratunac and Ljubovija. It's 1 kilometre
6 away from the town.
7 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention on the following day, that
8 would be July 12th, 1995, the day after Srebrenica fell. Do you recall
9 where you were at that time?
10 A. In the morning, I was in the administration building of the co-op
11 in Bratunac.
12 Q. All right. Did you spend the entire morning there or did you have
13 an opportunity to walk around the town?
14 A. I was there in the morning after a few hours. I left in order to
15 go to the warehouses to prepare the goods for sale for the following day.
16 Q. On that particular day, did you by any chance go to Potocari?
17 A. No.
18 Q. On that day, do you recall any -- witnessing any particular
19 incident that might help you as a point of reference as to whether you
20 were in Potocari or not?
21 A. No, no, I wasn't.
22 Q. Did you happen to see General Mladic that day?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Would you please tell us where was it that you saw General Mladic.
25 A. At the crossroads of the Bratunac and Srebrenica roads.
1 Q. And how was it that you saw him?
2 A. By accident. I was standing at the crossroads when he came along
3 in his vehicle.
4 Q. What were you doing?
5 A. I was standing there and talking to a passer-by.
6 Q. And do you recall what happened?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you please describe to us what you saw.
9 A. The car in which the general was stopped at the crossroads. Next
10 to me was a military policeman, whom I don't know. The general called out
11 and ordered us to stand to attention. And he yelled at us because we were
12 loitering about on the street. He slapped the military policeman and he
13 ordered us to return to the unit.
14 Q. All right. Did you return to any unit?
15 A. I didn't because I was not a conscript. I was unfit for military
16 service at that point.
17 Q. All right. On that particular day -- and if I understand you
18 correctly, that's the 12th, the day of the fall of Srebrenica?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you recall seeing any buses in Bratunac?
21 A. Yes. I did see more buses than usual than I would have seen on a
22 normal day.
23 Q. Did you notice who was in the buses?
24 A. The buses, when I saw them, were going off in the direction of
1 Q. All right. Did you see any buses coming from Potocari going in
2 the opposite direction?
3 A. As I was out in the street only briefly, I didn't. I went to the
4 raspberry warehouse, which is about a kilometre and a half away from
5 Bratunac. And I stayed there until the evening.
6 Q. All right. Now, the next day, July 13th, 1995, do you recall
7 going to Potocari?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you please describe to us how it is that you went to
11 A. I went to Potocari out of curiosity, hoping to see some of my
12 prewar friends.
13 Q. All right. How did you get to Potocari?
14 A. I can't say exactly what time it was, but it was around 10.00 or
15 10.30. Jovan Nikolic, known as Jole, came along, he came by.
16 Q. Was he with anyone?
17 A. He was with Momir Nikolic.
18 Q. All right. Were they walking by?
19 A. They were in a Zastava vehicle, a 101. I can't remember what
20 colour it was.
21 Q. All right. And then what?
22 A. Stojan Ilic and I were chatting at the crossroads and standing
23 there. And then Nikolic, both of them, stopped in their vehicle next to
24 us. We asked them where they were going. And they said they were going
25 to Potocari to see what was going on there.
1 Q. All right. What happened after that?
2 A. We asked whether they could give us a lift and they agreed.
3 Q. Okay. And then what?
4 A. We got into the car and set out toward Potocari.
5 Q. Was there any conversation on the way to Potocari that you can
6 recollect today?
7 A. The usual kind of conversation. We heard from Momir that the Army
8 of Republika Srpska had entered Srebrenica, and that the people had set
9 out toward the federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Q. All right. When you got to Potocari, what did you do?
11 A. After the first checkpoint when we were among the people, we
12 stopped and got out. And each of us talked to somebody individually.
13 There were loads of people there.
14 Q. All right. Did you happen to notice what Momir Nikolic was doing?
15 A. Momir Nikolic was talking to those people, saying hello.
16 Q. Did Momir Nikolic ever tell you whether he had a particular
17 function there?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did he ever say to you that he had been appointed by the Main
20 Staff as the coordinator of all the tasks?
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MR. WAESPI: I think we had a similar situation yesterday. He was
23 asked before whether he had a particular function -- whether Momir Nikolic
24 told him whether he had a particular function, the witness said no. And
25 the follow-up question is entirely leading, and I don't think it's
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have heard a lot of witnesses who testified
3 on this subject. And in these circumstances maybe the witness did not
4 understand what the particular function means. So I think it doesn't
5 matter for the Defence counsel to be more specific. But it is indeed a
6 leading question.
7 Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed.
8 MR. KARNAVAS:
9 Q. Did Momir Nikolic ever tell you whether he had an important role
10 to play in the evacuation the day before?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did he mention any -- receiving any orders from a Colonel Jankovic
13 of the Main Staff?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did he tell you about some conversation that he might have had
16 with an individual named Popovic or Kosoric?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you see him give any orders while he was there to any
19 commanders of any units that might have been there at the time carrying
20 out any activities?
21 A. I didn't see him give any orders.
22 Q. If you could just please tell us from your observations what you
23 believed, at the time, Momir Nikolic was doing there.
24 A. I thought he had come there out of curiosity, just like the three
25 of us.
1 Q. All right. Did anyone come up to Momir Nikolic seeking advice,
2 consultation, with respect to needs of coordination of units, buses,
3 trucks, individuals?
4 A. No. He paid more attention to the people, saying hello, chatting
5 to them.
6 Q. All right. So I take it Momir Nikolic knew some of those
7 individuals that were there?
8 A. Momir Nikolic was a teacher before the war so that many people
9 knew him, his former students, parents of students. And it was probably
10 those people that he was shaking hands with and saying hello to.
11 Q. All right. How long did you stay in Potocari, if you recall?
12 A. In my estimation, some 15 or 20 minutes.
13 Q. And from Potocari, where did you go?
14 A. We returned to Bratunac by the same route.
15 Q. Now, when you say "we," who is we?
16 A. Momir Nikolic, Jovan Nikolic, Stojan Ilic, and I.
17 Q. All right. And where did you go -- when you returned to Bratunac,
18 where did you -- what did you do?
19 A. We got out at the crossroads where the administration building
20 was, and Momir went to the command of the Bratunac Brigade, or so he said.
21 Q. Did he, by any chance, tell you why he was going there?
22 A. It was his duty to be at the brigade. That's probably the reason,
23 as a soldier, an officer.
24 Q. From your observations, did it appear that he was -- that there
25 was a sense of urgency on his part to get to the brigade and perhaps make
1 some sort of a reporting as to what he had seen and observed in Potocari?
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
3 MR. WAESPI: I think it's again entirely leading, all these buzz
4 words obviously important for the Defence to put into that question. He
5 can ask - if I can give my counsel advice today - how he appeared to be
6 when he went to the -- in what shape and form when he went to the brigade.
7 That would be a proper question.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. Put your question another way.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. Very well.
10 Q. From your observations of Momir Nikolic, would you please tell us
11 how or in which fashion he went to the brigade command post.
12 A. He wasn't in a hurry. He even invited us for coffee in the town,
13 but we refused because we had work to do in the administration building of
14 the co-op.
15 Q. Did he ever mention during that period of time that he had to meet
16 with Colonel Blagojevic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did he ever mention that he at any point in time had been keeping
19 Colonel Blagojevic abreast, informed, as to his whereabouts and what he
20 had been doing?
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, what do you mean by no? You mean you
23 don't know or Mr. Momir Nikolic did not inform his boss, Mr. Blagojevic?
24 I need an explanation.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't say anything to us, nor
1 did he let us know that he was to report to Colonel Blagojevic. I'm
2 referring to the three of us who were with him.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I believe the question
5 was: Did he ever mention, so I wasn't implying whether he had or not.
6 Q. Okay. So after this encounter with Momir Nikolic, what did you
8 A. I went back to the co-op warehouse, because that evening the sale
9 of raspberries was to take place.
10 Q. All right. Now, since we're on Momir Nikolic, and before we get
11 to the next day, could you tell us whether you know Momir Nikolic and how
12 well you know him.
13 A. I have known Momir Nikolic since 1985, and I know him quite well.
14 Q. All right. And when you say "quite well," were you friends?
15 A. Yes, because his wife was from Montenegro, and because of that we
16 grew quite close.
17 Q. Okay. Did you know his parents as well?
18 A. I was on very good terms with his father. We were very good
19 friends, even better than with Momir.
20 Q. All right. Have you stayed in touch with Momir since he has been
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And how?
24 A. He sent me a postcard.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Waespi.
1 MR. WAESPI: Yes. If we could go into private session for a
2 moment, please.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.
4 [Private session]
12 Pages 8074 to 8083 – redacted – private session.
1 [Open session]
2 MR. KARNAVAS:
3 Q. Now, while we're still on Momir Nikolic, you indicated that you
4 know him since 1985, so I take it from your long association with him,
5 nearly 20 years, you would have a pretty good understanding of his
7 A. Since we frequently socialised and after the war were involved in
8 similar activities, taking care of families and so on, I have been able to
9 create an opinion about him and I believe that many people in Bratunac
10 share my opinion.
11 Q. Could you tell us what your opinion is?
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
13 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I think that's a totally appropriate question,
14 but I would like to remind counsel of yesterday when he proposed a few
15 character traits to the witness and asked him, you know, is he a person
16 like that. And I don't -- I would object to a question like that. This
17 one is certainly appropriate.
18 JUDGE LIU: I believe Mr. Karnavas already bore in mind the
19 objections you made yesterday.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: I appreciate the pre-emptive admonition from my
21 colleague. Thank you.
22 Q. So could you please share with us your understanding of
23 Momir Nikolic's character.
24 A. Well, Momir Nikolic never displayed such features with respect to
25 me, but however he always was a conceited person and had a superiority
1 complex, which is the reason why he frequently had conflicts with the
2 residents of Bratunac.
3 Q. Okay. And can you comment, can you comment, as to your belief or
4 your understanding as to his character with respect to truth and honesty.
5 MR. WAESPI: I would like to draw the Court's attention to what
6 the witness just said. He said: "Momir Nikolic never displayed such
7 features with respect to me," and then he goes on. So if everything --
8 all he can say is what he heard about that is very limited. Especially
9 when we now when we go into character traits with respect to truth and
10 honesty, of which the Trial Chamber could satisfy itself when
11 Mr. Momir Nikolic testified.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: I've laid a foundation. He knows him. Just
15 because Momir Nikolic was not arrogant, abrasive, a braggadocio, and so on
16 and so forth with this particular gentleman, if he was able to witness it
17 when Momir Nikolic was conducting himself in that manner, for this
18 individual to draw these conclusions with respect to Momir Nikolic's
19 character, he's truly qualified to comment on that. And the second
20 question is different from the first. It is not leading; it is perfectly
21 fine. And as far as I understand the rules of evidence, character
22 evidence is admissible, as long as you establish a foundation. And so, I
23 believe we have the foundation. He can say he doesn't know, he does know.
24 But I think he's known the individual for 20 years. It's a small
25 community. He's had lots of contact with him.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed with your
2 question, but we also will bear in mind the objections from the
3 Prosecution on this issue.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes.
5 Q. Sir, could you please comment as to your understanding of
6 Mr. Nikolic's character with respect to truth and honesty. Is he a
7 truthful and honest person, your belief.
8 A. I was able to make conclusions about his truthfulness and honesty,
9 only after the war has ended. During the war, I had no opportunity to be
10 in his vicinity; I had no opportunity to socialise with him.
11 Q. And what conclusions were you able to draw after the war?
12 A. As I was involved in taking care of Serb refugees, the ones who
13 had fled Sarajevo municipality, I had frequent contacts with Momir Nikolic
14 in the Ministry for Refugees and Deported Persons, where he worked in
15 Bratunac. We had a lot of needy families, disabled persons, and homeless
16 persons. It was difficult for me to cooperate with him and to find mutual
17 ground, even though by law he was duty-bound to take care of these needy
18 persons. Many families who went to see him, seeking assistance, seeking
19 accommodation, were not successful in their requests because he always
20 lied to them, and we had tremendous problems with him in that regard, our
21 service did. Sometimes when he was supposed to help someone, he would
22 even take my opinion into account more than he took into account the rules
23 of the organisation.
24 This reflects an unstable character. And through three years of
25 cooperation, I know there are a hundred or more people in Bratunac who
1 could confirm this, because he caused them harm and difficulties without
2 reason. When he left the department Ministry for Refugees and Displaced
3 Persons, his successor managed to take care of the most needy categories
4 of people very quickly and in a very good way.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
6 Now, I just want to draw your -- I want to go back to where we
7 left off before we began speaking about Momir Nikolic. The
8 following -- so we -- and we were discussing the events of the 13th of
9 July, 1995. Now, if you could tell us if you recall the following day,
10 July 14th, 1995.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you please tell us what, if anything, unusual happened that
13 day that sticks out in your mind today.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. On that day, in view of the fact that I'm not from the area near
17 the village of Kravica, which has a lot of raspberry orchards, I did not
18 receive a report, either in writing or orally, as to what had been done at
19 the sales point. The raspberries from this village were to have been
20 delivered to the cooler on the 13th in the evening, but they failed to
21 arrive. In the morning I set out toward Kravica in order to see why no
22 report had been submitted and what our employees there were doing. As I
23 did not have a car, I got a lift from someone from the village of
24 Popovici. I don't remember the person's name. This is a little hamlet in
25 the hills near Kravica. And he dropped me off about 200 metres away from
1 the warehouse. He turned off toward his home, and I got out of the car
2 and set out on foot toward the warehouse. As I was approaching the co-op
3 warehouse, I heard gunfire. And I saw some unknown persons in camouflage
4 uniforms. Out of fear for my life, I went into the first house in the
5 village, which is across the road from the warehouse at a distance of
6 about 100 metres. I sat down with the person whose home it was, and he
7 said: "Don't go near there or you may lose your life."
8 After a while, I saw a vehicle in which there was Dragan Nikolic,
9 a war invalid, and Jovan Nikolic, also known as Jole. And they went
10 toward the warehouse compound. As there was no fence around the warehouse
11 because it had been taken down during the war, a few of the villagers who
12 were in the house and myself set out toward the warehouse. Jovan Nikolic
13 was yelling and shouting at the soldiers who were there. One of the
14 soldiers cocked his rifle and pointed it at him. An elderly man, whose
15 last name is Milanovic and his first name is Sveto, and Jovan was his best
16 man, his kum, and he was afraid for his life so he begged the soldiers not
17 to kill him. Then the soldiers turned on this elderly man, who is almost
18 senile. To save him, Nikolic put this man into his car and took him home.
19 The warehouses had been broken into and looted. For reasons of
20 personal safety and the safety of the other people who were there, I did
21 not dare object. While I was inspecting the warehouse inside, because
22 there were a lot of goods in there, Jovan Nikolic went back to Bratunac,
23 but I don't know who with. I didn't notice that.
24 Q. All right. Now, sir, did you recognise these men that were
25 carrying out these executions?
1 A. No. They had masks.
2 Q. Did you recognise any of the voices?
3 A. I talked to three soldiers who were in the canteen and I asked
4 them what they were doing. I was astonished. I was horrified. They
5 exchanged a few words with me. This was a soldier who was not wearing a
6 mask, but I didn't know him. Neither of these two had masks on.
7 Q. All right. Did you ask them where they were from?
8 A. No, I didn't ask them where they were from, but they didn't seem
9 to be local people. They appeared to be soldiers from the area of
10 Sarajevo because they were mixing up the sounds č and ć. This is
11 characteristic of that area.
12 Q. So from their pronunciation of certain words, you believed that
13 they might have been from another area?
14 A. Yes. I was able to observe that all people who come from the
15 Sarajevo area confuse these two sounds č and ć. The refugees now
16 living in Bratunac from that area all speak like that.
17 Q. Okay. All right. Well, sir, I don't have any more questions at
18 this time. Thank you very much. I believe Mr. Stojanovic may have some
19 questions and the Prosecution and the Judges may also have questions of
20 you. I would appreciate if you would be as frank and as forthcoming with
21 them as you have been with me. Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to this witness?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. We
25 have no questions for this witness, in view of his testimony.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
2 Well, Mr. Waespi, maybe we could have an early break. And when we
3 resume, you will begin your cross-examination.
4 So we will break until 20 minutes to 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi, your cross-examination, please.
8 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vasovic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. I only have a few questions for you this morning, and it won't
13 take long.
14 A. Just go ahead. Go ahead, please.
15 Q. Can you tell me your father's name.
16 A. Dragomir.
17 Q. Now, are you on the roster of members of the Bratunac Brigade in
18 July 1995? Would that be a possibility?
19 A. No. I was not on the roster because -- shall I explain?
20 Q. Yes, please.
21 A. Because I was wounded in 1992 on the 14th of December. I
22 underwent treatment in the Zvornik health centre, the VMA, and in the
23 rehabilitation centre Banja Kovaljaca. I was declared unfit for military
24 service and therefore I could no longer be a member of the brigade.
25 Q. Was it possible that in 1995 you received some sort of benefits
1 from the Bratunac Brigade because or despite the fact that you were unfit
2 or disabled, as you told us?
3 A. War invalids get their income from a certain fund, which still
4 exists today, not from the brigade or the army.
5 Q. Okay. Let me then show you a document.
6 MR. WAESPI: And, Your Honours, it's exhibit P165. If the witness
7 could be shown.
8 And, Mr. President, the only relevant page is the second-to-last
9 page, and we do have a translation of the heading and the titles. It's a
10 list of names, as you will see. And perhaps the witness can tell us
11 whether he recognises his name on this list. And I think we can put it on
12 to the ELMO, the B/C/S version.
13 Q. Mr. Vasovic --
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Waespi, is that document under seal?
15 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, if it's under seal, please do not put it on the
18 MR. WAESPI: You're right. I do apologise for that.
19 Q. So if you would just go over the document --
20 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps out of an abundance of caution if we could go
21 into private session so --
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session.
23 [Private session]
12 Page 8092 – redacted – private session.
15 [Open session]
16 MR. WAESPI:
17 Q. Now, a few questions about Kravica, 14th July. You told us you
18 were present that day. Did you see -- when you approached the warehouse,
19 did you see bodies there?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. And how many bodies did you see there?
22 A. I couldn't say how many, but there was a pile of bodies. I didn't
23 come near them and I couldn't do that anyway.
24 Q. I thought you said you -- later on you went with Jovan Nikolic to
25 these, as they were described, executioners --
1 A. I came up to the building when they attacked Jovan Nikolic.
2 Q. Okay. Have you heard that these bodies from Kravica were dumped
3 at a site in Glogova?
4 A. No. I didn't hear it on that day and nobody mentioned it. Later
5 on I heard this from the people, from rumours going around the town.
6 Q. Now, do you know an area called Ravnice just very close to the
8 A. No.
9 Q. Have you heard of a little hamlet called Adzici in the same area
10 on the road, Bratunac-Konjevic Polje, just above the road. It's very
11 close to the main road?
12 A. Adzici?
13 Q. Yes. It's in the village of Halilovici, Glogova.
14 A. No. I know about Halilovici. There's a signpost saying
15 Halilovici, but I'm not really familiar with that area.
16 Q. So you heard later about the bodies of the Glogova. Have you
17 heard in this little hamlet, Ravnice, 200 bodies were dumped to the
18 street? Have you heard about these two things as well?
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object on the grounds of
21 relevancy. Unless counsel can now establish some foundation as to why
22 this is relevant with respect to this particular witness. I do object.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think some questions asked in the
24 cross-examination may have some relevance to the case, or in the
25 cross-examination the Prosecution or the parties could ask any questions
1 which goes to the credibility of this witness.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Waespi.
4 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. So you said you had heard about the bodies in Glogova?
6 A. That's what I heard, but I didn't go there. I never went there,
7 nor do I know where this is.
8 Q. And -- so you don't know where these dump sites were, these
9 graves who were dug those days in Glogova? You still don't know that
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. That's not what the witness said, and
12 now we're getting into an area where he's trying to be unfair with the
13 witness. He never said that he's unaware of it today. I think
14 it's -- he's being unfair to the witness, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: I believe the Prosecution is just making sure what the
16 answer of this witness is.
17 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I apologise if there was a misunderstanding. I
18 believe the witness said he still doesn't know where the graves are. And
19 I apologise. If that's not correct, the witness can clarify the point.
20 Q. Do you know today where these graves in Glogova are?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Let me turn to another subject. Do you know the Red Berets of the
23 Bratunac Brigade?
24 A. I heard about them, but I didn't see them. As I was wounded quite
25 early on, I spent a long time undergoing treatment.
1 Q. Do you know any members of the Red Berets?
2 A. I know the late Bosko Neskovic.
3 Q. Anybody else?
4 A. I didn't know them. They were younger than me, not my
5 generation. So I didn't know them well.
6 Q. So if you saw any member of these Red Berets, you wouldn't be able
7 to place them into this Red Beret unit. Is that correct?
8 A. Seen them where?
9 Q. For instance, Kravica.
10 A. I would recognise their faces, their physical appearance. I knew
11 what they looked like, but I didn't know their names.
12 Q. Do you know Miroslav Stanojevic, the way he looks like?
13 A. Miroslav Stanojevic, no.
14 Q. So you don't know -- yes?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You have never heard of him?
17 A. There are many people called Stanojevic in Bratunac, but I don't
18 know Miroslav.
19 Q. You are hesitating. Maybe you have heard that he was wounded in
21 MR. KARNAVAS: I object to that commentary that he's hesitating.
22 It could be that he's waiting for the translation.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe there is a procedural issue. We still
24 have a lot of time, and there is no need for haste.
25 MR. WAESPI:
1 Q. Yes. Do you want to clarify anything, Mr. Vasovic?
2 A. I don't know Miroslav Stanovic and I didn't hear that he was
3 wounded in Kravica.
4 Q. Did you hear that he was killed in Kravica?
5 A. I don't know that he was killed in Kravica. Had he been killed,
6 his picture would have been brought to the memorial room but so far nobody
7 has brought a picture of him to be put in the memorial room and I haven't
8 seen him. But maybe he didn't have any family to do that. Anyway, I
9 didn't hear about this.
10 Q. Have you heard that he was killed in a car accident later on?
11 A. No. I don't know him. There's nothing I can say about him.
12 Q. Let me go to the last point. You told us today that you were
13 frightened when you approached the warehouse and heard the shots. Is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you feared for your life?
17 A. Of course.
18 Q. And I think you testified even that somebody local there told you
19 not to go there because it's dangerous?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then you witnessed a heavy exchange between Jovan Nikolic and
22 these, as we heard, executioners. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. And still afterwards you went to the canteen and had coffee with
25 these executioners. Is that correct?
1 A. No. I found them in the room where there was no electricity, no
2 water, let alone coffee. Why would I be drinking coffee with them?
3 Q. But you talked to them?
4 A. In passing, yes. I asked who had broken into my warehouse and the
5 premises and so on.
6 Q. Did you ask them about whether they killed these many, many bodies
7 you had seen there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So the only thing you were concerned was who has broken into your
10 warehouse and the premises and so on?
11 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I wouldn't even dare ask them. I was naturally
12 concerned, wasn't interested in the warehouse or anything else. However,
13 I didn't dare -- I didn't dare.
14 Q. Did you see some heavy machinery standing there while you were at
15 Kravica warehouse?
16 A. No.
17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 Any re-direct?
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.
21 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
22 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could get the assistance of the usher for
23 that exhibit that was shown by the Prosecutor, the roster.
24 JUDGE LIU: Shall we go into private session?
25 MR. KARNAVAS: That won't be necessary, Your Honour.
1 Q. If you could just look at that, sir. I just want to clarify a
2 couple of points. And of course I believe there are other documents there
3 with respect to that roster. Now, at that time - we're talking July
4 1995 - were you a member of the 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Prior to you getting wounded, were you a member of the
7 Bratunac Brigade?
8 A. I was.
9 Q. And do you recall which unit you were serving in when you were a
10 member of the Bratunac Brigade?
11 A. The 1st Company, 3rd Battalion.
12 Q. Okay. And some of the other names that you see there, do you
13 recall whether they were also the ones that you indicated that they were
14 also invalids --
15 A. I know all of these people.
16 Q. I don't want to -- we don't need to mention any names. But my
17 question is: Do you recall whether they were members of that battalion as
19 A. Yes, in various units.
20 Q. All right. And was there not a practice, sir, that by having your
21 name on a roster such as this one, provisions could be provided for the
22 family members?
23 A. Yes. Can I clarify something, sir?
24 Q. Yes. But again, if you do not mention any particular name that's
25 on there.
1 A. This document is very clear, very explicit. We received
2 assistance from the brigade. It says here: "For the provisions, for the
3 supplies," and the signatures on the side are those of neighbours,
4 spouses, and so on. I can see here that somebody picked up supplies that
5 had been assigned to me. I didn't pick them myself, but by the
6 signatures, there is a clarification, whether it was a neighbor, a sister,
7 a wife.
8 Q. Okay. Do you recognise that signature that's next to your name?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. And prior to coming here today and being shown this
11 document, had you seen this document?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. Now, let me move on to the next issue, and that's the
14 Kravica incident. Now, are you clear you were there on that particular
15 day and you saw those people committing those executions?
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. WAESPI: I don't know what the purpose is in re-examination.
18 I --
19 MR. KARNAVAS: It's not re-examination, Your Honour. There seems
20 to be -- the Prosecution seems to be on the knife edge deciding whether he
21 witnessed them or not. He's trying somehow to discredit the individual
22 that he did not see the killings. Or if he did see the killings,
23 afterwards he was dispassionate and had coffee with them. So I don't know
24 how that fits into the theory of their case, but nonetheless they are
25 attacking the gentleman's credibility and honesty with respect to what he
1 witnessed and what he did.
2 JUDGE LIU: I think some matters we heard yesterday corroborated
3 with the testimony of this witness. So since some questions have already
4 been asked in the direct examination and the cross-examination, I believe
5 there is no need to repeat them. The re-direct examination should be
6 within the scope of the cross-examination. I hope you bear that in mind.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I am bearing that in mind.
8 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Now, you were asked about a particular individual, whether you
11 knew him, whether you heard of his name, Miroslav Stanojevic. I believe
12 you indicated that you did not know him. Correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. But did I hear you clearly that if you would have seen the face of
15 someone that you recognised, you would at least be able to tell us that
16 you recognised someone.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
18 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, that's entirely leading.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE LIU: No, no, I don't think so. I believe that the witness
21 told us about that.
22 But you could put your question another way.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll put it another way.
24 Q. Did you recognise any of the faces of those individuals that did
25 not have a mask on?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to Glogova, were you involved at all in
3 the burial process of Glogova?
4 A. No. Why would somebody engage me in that kind of effort when
5 there was no need for that?
6 Q. Could you please explain to us what reasons might you have for
7 concealing information as to where the graves in Glogova would be while at
8 the same time telling us that you witnessed ongoing executions?
9 A. There would be no reasons for that. Had I seen it, I would have
10 said so, where they were buried or any other information.
11 Q. You were asked a question with respect to the people that you did
12 speak to. Why didn't you ask them who killed the Muslims that were there,
13 that pile of bodies that you saw. I'm not quite clear as to why you
14 didn't ask them who killed those Muslims. So could you please clarify
15 your answer.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. WAESPI: I believe the witness said: "I was afraid."
18 So I don't see the...
19 JUDGE LIU: We believe that question is asked and answered.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: If that is the objection, Your Honour, and if the
21 Prosecution is satisfied with the answer, then I'll -- I have no further
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.
24 Yes, Judge Argibay.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good morning, sir. I have one question for you.
2 When you were reading this postcard you received. And we are in open
3 session, I won't mention especially the thing. You said that when it was
4 referring to "traitors," you believed that to be mention of Mr. Deronjic.
5 Can you tell me why.
6 A. Before coming to the Detention Unit, on one occasion when we were
7 together, the two of us, he said that should he go to The Hague, Miroslav
8 would follow very soon thereafter.
9 JUDGE ARGIBAY: And what has that to do with the word "traitor"?
10 I don't understand you, if you can explain it.
11 A. They had some accounts to settle between them, privately. And
12 they were arguing and discussing things between them. And he would
13 frequently inform me about that.
14 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. Thank you. I have no further questions.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I have got a question.
16 Witness, are you sure that you were in Potocari with the other
17 people, including Momir Nikolic, on the 12th of July instead of the 13th
18 of July?
19 A. I'm sure it was on the 13th. I know where I was on the 12th. The
20 meeting with the general, that short meeting with the general, is very
21 clear in my mind. Therefore, I got lost in order not to be there in his
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
24 Are there any questions?
25 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps if I could assist, I think, the Rule 65 ter
1 summaries wasn't clear and perhaps your question is based on that account.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 Any questions out of the Judges' questions?
4 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour. I believe I did make a notation
5 in the previous proofing notes, noting that the error was on my part and
6 not the witness's. But I have no further questions, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
8 At this stage, are there any documents to tender? Mr. Karnavas.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, just to be on the safe side, I
10 would like to tender the postcard. And I do have a -- we are waiting for
11 the official translation to come, you know, any day now. It's been in
12 there for several days, in fact weeks. But that would be the only
13 document. I believe that would be D123/1.
14 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?
15 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well -- well, Mr. Karnavas, I'm not sure whether we
17 should admit it into the evidence or not at this stage, because so far as
18 I know you read all the contents of that postcard into the transcript. Do
19 you think we still need to admit it? Maybe for some stamps? The dates?
20 I'm not sure.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. I think the -- it is quite
22 difficult to read the actual date. So I think that the original should
23 come in. I have spoken with the gentleman here, and he's made a copy of
24 it for his own records. And he's -- as I understand it, he's willing to
25 part with the original postcard.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
2 This document, D123/1, is admitted into the evidence, pending the
3 official translation, which means if there are any problems the parties,
4 the other party has the right to challenge the translation of that
5 postcard. And it is admitted under seal. Thank you.
6 Yes, as for this postcard, we still have a question, that is on
7 which year at least this witness received that postcard. Could we ask the
8 witness to answer that question?
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. Of course. Would you like me to
10 ask it or --
11 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could ask it.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Thank you.
13 Further examination by Mr. Karnavas:
14 Q. Sir, do you recall which year you received the postcard?
15 A. I only know that when Momir came to The Hague and then his wife,
16 Dusanka, went to visit him, some 10 to 15 days after that I received the
18 Q. Okay. Do you know whether it was before or after he entered into
19 his bargain with the Prosecution?
20 A. I think that it was before, at least by media -- following the
21 media accounts of it. I think it was much before that.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
24 Witness, thank you very much indeed for your coming to The Hague
25 to give your evidence. We appreciate it very much.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE LIU: When the hearing is adjourned, the usher will show
3 you out of the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.
4 As I said yesterday that we will spend some time on the procedural
5 matters, which could be called a Status Conference. And we will adjourn
6 for 15 minutes for everybody to get the necessary materials and documents
7 concerning of the 65 ter filings by the Defence counsel. So the hearing
8 is adjourned until half past 11.00.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
10 at 11.18 a.m., to be followed by
11 a Status Conference