1 Monday, 26 April 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
9 Good morning, everybody. Before we hear the witness, are there
10 any matters that the parties would like to bring to the attention of this
11 Bench? I see none.
12 Madam Usher, could we have the witness, please.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
16 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
17 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: RODOLJUB TRISIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning.
1 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:
2 Q. Good morning, sir.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. You may need to speak up a little bit louder. Okay?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, if you could please tell us what your name is.
7 A. My name is Rodoljub Trisic.
8 Q. And could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.
9 A. T-r-i-s-i-c.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you.
11 A. Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Trisic, where are you from?
13 A. I am from Bratunac.
14 Q. Do you know Mr. Blagojevic?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. How do you know him?
17 A. What did you say?
18 Q. How is it that you know him?
19 A. Well, I know him because we're both from the same place, from
21 Q. Okay. Did you know him growing up?
22 A. Yes, thank you.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Trisic, what do you do for a living?
24 A. I work as a transporter. I have three buses, and I work with
25 those buses.
1 Q. Prior to the war, what was your job?
2 A. I was a driver in the Vihor Bratunac transport company.
3 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention around July 1995. Okay. What
4 was your job back then?
5 A. I had a private bus and I worked with that bus. I would do
6 private tours.
7 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us what kind of tours you would do.
8 A. Well, mostly I do shopping tours, Subotica-Novi Sad [as
9 interpreted] was the route, there and back. I didn't have to do my
10 military service, so that's what I did in order to make a living for
11 myself and my family.
12 Q. Now, why did you not have to do your military service?
13 A. Because in 1990 I'd had an operation on my right lung, and I was
14 deemed incapable for military service, so I was exempt.
15 Q. All right. Prior to the fall of Srebrenica, were you mobilised?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Now, when Srebrenica fell, which is July 11, 1995, were you
18 at that point in time a member of the Bratunac Brigade?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For how long had you been with the Bratunac Brigade?
21 A. All in all, that wartime service, if I can put it that way, was
22 eight months.
23 Q. Okay. At what point in time did you start your wartime service
24 with the Bratunac Brigade?
25 A. Perhaps about a month before the fall of Srebrenica.
1 Q. Okay. And with which unit were you serving?
2 A. I served in the 2nd Battalion.
3 Q. All right. And who was your battalion commander?
4 A. It was Goran Stakic.
5 Q. And what was your function with the 2nd Battalion?
6 A. Well, I was sort of commander for the security of the command of
7 that 2nd Battalion.
8 Q. And what did that entail?
9 A. I had seven invalids, elderly persons, and they were sort of
10 guards in front of the headquarters of that 2nd Battalion.
11 Q. All right. So basically you were guarding the headquarters of the
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Now, during the attack on Srebrenica, did you participate in any
15 of those events?
16 A. No.
17 Q. All right. Now, as I indicated, Srebrenica fell on July 11, 1995.
18 Do you recall what you were doing on that day, the day that Srebrenica
20 A. I received from -- or rather, somebody signed a piece of paper
21 mobilising my bus for transport, requisitioning it. So I complained a
22 little, and then I went home. And my wife called them up to tell them
23 that I was in another battalion. And then they gave me this call-up,
24 these call-up papers, and then I went to the municipality to see what
25 right they had to requisition that bus of mine.
1 Q. Okay. Let me stop you here. We're going to go step by step. Was
2 that July 11, the day that Srebrenica fell, the actual day when Srebrenica
3 fell? Or could that have been the next day or two days later or three
4 days later? Do you --
5 A. Yes, that was the day.
6 Q. Okay. And where did this courier come from?
7 A. From the municipality.
8 Q. And so -- and who from the municipality exactly?
9 A. Well, the civilian authorities, I suppose, and those who were in
10 charge of the mobilisation.
11 Q. And who was in charge of the mobilisation?
12 A. Well, there was Aco Tesic, and then there was --
13 Q. Okay. All right. And how were you notified?
14 A. Well, they sent me a piece of paper for the mobilisation of my
16 Q. All right. Now, how did they know where to find you?
17 A. They knew I was in the 2nd Battalion.
18 Q. All right. Now, when you received this paper, what did you do?
19 A. I was angry, so I went to the municipality to see them and to ask
20 them who had the right to send me a paper to requisition my bus.
21 Q. All right. Did you -- how did you get to the municipality?
22 A. I went with a vehicle belonging -- in a vehicle belonging to the
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. The command.
1 Q. Before leaving did you get permission to go to the municipality?
2 A. Well, I didn't ask anybody because the command of the battalion
3 wasn't there at the time, so I took the initiative and went there on my
4 own back.
5 Q. Okay. And when you went to the municipality, who did you
7 A. I stormed into the municipality building and where the president
8 of the municipality usually is, and Deronjic was there and Kinez was there
9 and Buco and Ljubo Simic and another man, I can't remember his name now.
10 Q. Now, Kinez, that's his nickname?
11 A. Yes, his name was Dragan Mirkovic.
12 Q. All right. And could you please tell us what happened when you
13 stormed in there.
14 A. Well, anything could have happened, but luckily the worst didn't
15 happen. I came in and said: "Who gave you the right, when you have other
16 vehicles from the state enterprise, to take my vehicle that I saved up to
17 buy and to provide me and my family with a livelihood? What gave you that
19 Q. All right. And what was their response?
20 A. Well, this was their response: The gentleman, Mr. Buco, bashed
21 his fist on the table and said: "We have to mobilise everything because
22 it's a state of war, and we can mobilise what we like."
23 Q. And Buco is Mr. Davidovic?
24 A. Davidovic, yes, that's right. He hit the table with his fist in
25 demonstration and said: "Who are you? We have to mobilise."
1 Q. Okay. Did he tell you what the purpose for the mobilisation was,
2 why they needed your transport vehicle?
3 A. Well, he said that the people from Srebrenica, those ones, had to
4 be driven to Kladanj.
5 Q. Okay. And what did you do after that?
6 A. I had to agree to that because they said: "If you won't drive the
7 vehicle, we have a driver and we'll let him drive it." And then I said to
8 them: "Well, it's better for me to drive my own bus rather than somebody
9 else who's going to -- who won't be so careful and might do anything to
11 So that was it.
12 Q. All right. And did you drive that bus?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Now, did you receive -- did you notify your commander at that
15 point in time that you would be driving your bus for the next day or so?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How did you notify your commander when you were in Bratunac and
18 your commander was up in the 2nd Battalion?
19 A. I went back to the battalion and told the commander that my bus
20 had been mobilised and I had to go with it. And he gave me permission.
21 Q. Okay. Do you recall telling me something different yesterday when
22 we were discussing this issue? That was: The day after you finished the
23 driving is when you informed your battalion commander?
24 A. Well, I don't really know whether it was that day, but anyway I
25 had to inform the commander that I would be driving the bus.
1 Q. Okay. I know that you had to inform him. The question is: Did
2 you inform him before you started driving?
3 A. No, no, I didn't.
4 Q. Okay. Now, in what condition was your bus?
5 A. Relatively good condition.
6 Q. Okay. Did it need any repairs?
7 A. Well, I did have something wrong with the pedal and there was some
8 oil leakage from the oil tank and the clutch, something wrong there, so I
9 had to keep putting in more motor oil.
10 Q. All right. Did you request any motor oil as a result of the
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. And who did you request that from?
14 A. I requested that from Loncarevic, what was his name?
15 Pejo Loncarevic.
16 Q. Was he with the Bratunac Brigade or was he with the municipality?
17 A. It's the Bratunac Brigade.
18 Q. Okay. And where was that in the Bratunac Brigade?
19 A. By the hospital, there was a warehouse there.
20 Q. Okay. Did you have to show them any documents in order to get the
21 oil, or did you just show up and they automatically gave it to you?
22 A. Well, I had the piece of paper for the car's requisitioning,
23 nothing else. That's what I had, the requisition slip, but everybody knew
24 that they had requisitioned my vehicle and I had to drive it.
25 Q. All right. All right. Now, could you please tell us --
1 incidentally, where was your bus located?
2 A. It was at home.
3 Q. And your home is where?
4 A. Well, it's about 500 metres from the centre of Bratunac.
5 Q. All right. Now, if you could please tell us what did you do with
6 your bus once you got the oil and you began driving it?
7 A. When I had got the oil, I went to Potocari to load up the people
8 who were there in Potocari.
9 Q. All right. Now, did anyone tell you --
10 A. Kladanj.
11 Q. Did anyone tell you to whom you were supposed to report once you
12 got to Potocari?
13 A. No, nobody told me anything.
14 Q. When you got to Potocari, did anyone tell you who was in charge?
15 A. No, nobody told me anything. All I was told was to go to
17 Q. Did they ever mention Momir Nikolic, that he might be there
18 coordinating all these activities and to check in with him?
19 A. I saw him up there, but he didn't come up to me nor did I go up to
20 him, because there were a number of buses there already. So we didn't
21 have any communication.
22 Q. Okay. Do you recall what he was doing when you saw him there?
23 A. What was he doing? He was strutting around, because there was
24 some blue helmets up there, so he would go to them and back. And he would
25 communicate with them mostly.
1 Q. All right. Now, when you got there, could you please explain to
2 us exactly how the process worked.
3 A. When we came with the buses, we would make an about turn and there
4 were soldiers from all parts, all kinds of soldiers. And we would make a
5 turn there. And they would separate four or five buses and would the
6 groups go in 50 or 60 people at a time, depending on the number of seats
7 in the bus. They would load them up into the buses, and then they would
8 make a column and we would go in single file or in column -- as a convoy.
9 Q. Did you see any soldiers kicking women or children or men into the
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you see any men being separated as they were trying to get on
13 to the buses?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Do you recall approximately how many trips you took?
16 A. Two -- I think it was twice.
17 Q. Okay. Could it have been three times? Three trips?
18 A. Possibly, two or three times. I can't say exactly.
19 Q. All right. Now, during those two to three trips, do you recall in
20 your bus whether there were any men?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And could you tell us, if you recall now, their ages, the range of
23 ages, of the men.
24 A. Well, they ranged from -- there was a young man, maybe 27, 30
25 years old, and then there were elderly people, too. 45, 50, that sort of
2 Q. Okay. Incidentally, did you make any trips the next day, on the
4 A. I didn't, no.
5 Q. All right. So on that particular day, could you please tell us
6 how long it would take to make one trip to go there, come back, load up,
7 and then go back out again. So how long would a trip take approximately?
8 A. About two and a half hours.
9 Q. All right. And were there any soldiers in the bus when you were
10 transporting the people?
11 A. No.
12 Q. All right. Do you recall any incidents while you were taking the
13 people from Potocari to Kladanj? Do you recall any incidents happening on
14 the way there or once you got there?
15 A. There was nothing on the way, but when we arrived there, when we
16 got to Kladanj, there was some of those soldiers. And there was an
17 incident with the young boy who was with me, and the soldiers took him
18 away. I went up to them. They were a little insolent, and there was a
19 captain there where we had to write down our names when we arrived and
20 brought in those groups. We had to sign. I told him that permission had
21 been given for him to pass through, so he ordered the soldiers to bring
22 him back. And he went on with his father, and his father was in my bus,
23 that young man's father.
24 Q. Okay. So just to make sure that I understand everything, once you
25 got to Kladanj to the border there where you were leaving -- letting the
1 people out, you had to register?
2 A. Yes, but I wasn't allowed to let the people out before I had
3 registered with the captain, reported to the captain. And then I would
4 open the door and they would step down in a column towards the crossing.
5 Q. Okay. Could you please describe to us this registration process
6 and how did it work. You parked the car -- the bus, and then what?
7 A. Yes, that's right. And then we would go to see the captain so
8 that he could register us and have it down on paper that we had brought in
9 the bus with the people at the border crossing at Kladanj.
10 Q. All right. Did you have to record how many people you had
11 transported, if you recall?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So it was basically you just going there, informing them of your
14 name, your bus number --
15 A. Yes, yes, and the number of the vehicle that had arrived.
16 Q. Okay. Just incidentally, the day that you began driving these
17 buses, the bus, was that the same day that you received notice that your
18 bus had been mobilised?
19 A. When Srebrenica fell, that's when it happened, yes.
20 Q. Let me ask the question again. I just want to make sure that
21 we're correct. The day that you drove your bus, was that the same day
22 that you received notice that your bus was mobilised and you went to the
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. All right. Now, other than the one incident you just
1 described to us, do you recall any other incidents with respect to
2 transporting the people from Potocari to Kladanj?
3 A. Yes, there were. There was one incident when I was stopped by the
4 chief of police on my way back from Kladanj towards Bratunac, and he asked
5 me to take a group of policemen up there because people had started
6 looting those houses.
7 Q. Let me stop you here. Where is "up there"?
8 A. To Potocari, that's what I meant.
9 Q. So you were stopped in Bratunac and told to go to Potocari?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. That's how it was, yes.
13 Q. Would you please continue.
14 A. And I took those policemen up there and returned. And then
15 Josipovic said to me: "Would you please go because about 20 policemen" --
16 I don't know where they were from, Bijeljina, Zvornik, I don't know. They
17 were still in Potocari and had to be transported to Bjelovac, because in
18 the school probably --
19 Q. Let me stop you here. We're going to go step by step. The first
21 A. Very well.
22 Q. You're stopped by the chief of police and you're asked to go to
23 Potocari with some police officers. Correct?
24 A. To take them there, yes, yes.
25 Q. Okay. Now -- and who is the chief of police back then?
1 A. Josipovic.
2 Q. All right. Do you recall how many police officers you took with
3 you to Potocari?
4 A. Not many. I think six or seven policemen.
5 Q. Did you recognise any of those policemen?
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. Do you know whether they were from Bratunac?
8 A. They weren't.
9 Q. They weren't or you don't know whether they were from Bratunac?
10 Which of the two?
11 A. I didn't know them. I didn't recognise them.
12 Q. All right. But it's possible that they could have been from
13 Bratunac and you simply didn't recognise them. That's a possibility as
14 well, no?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Okay. All right. Now -- so you went -- so you took these
17 individuals to Potocari. Right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, did you wait for them or did you return right away to
21 A. I returned to Bratunac right away. And as I was approaching
22 Bratunac, he asked me to go and fetch those policemen because a group of
23 some 20 policemen had remained behind. That was probably a special unit.
24 What do I know? And to transport them to Bjelovac.
25 Q. Okay. Now, did you go back to Potocari?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Did you locate those police officers that you had to pick up?
3 A. I didn't understand your question.
4 Q. Okay. Did you locate -- were you able to find, on the road or on
5 the side of the road, the police officers --
6 A. They were waiting for me on the road.
7 Q. Okay. Could you please describe to us where on the road they were
8 waiting for you.
9 A. They were waiting there where the civilians were on the road
11 Q. Okay. Was that beyond the yellow bridge, the checkpoint?
12 A. Yes, yes. It was where the civilians were waiting for us to load
13 them up.
14 Q. Okay. Do you recall approximately what time of day this would
15 have been?
16 A. In the afternoon.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. Or early evening, or maybe it was about 4.00 p.m. I can't be
19 precise about the time.
20 Q. Okay. All right. Now, what did you do once you picked them
21 up -- well, first of all, did you recognise any of those police officers?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How were they dressed?
24 A. Camouflage uniforms.
25 Q. I -- okay. But there were a lot of soldiers running around in
1 camouflage uniforms. How did you know that those -- that was the group
2 that you needed to pick up? How did you recognise them?
3 A. Well, you recognise the police. They had the most freedom.
4 Q. All right. Now, once you picked them up, where did you take them?
5 A. I took them to Bjelovac.
6 Q. Okay. And where is Bjelovac?
7 A. Bjelovac is about 7 or 8 kilometres away from Bratunac.
8 Q. And I don't recall whether I asked you. Do you know where they
9 were from, these individuals? I know you didn't recognise them, but do
10 you know where these police officers were from?
11 A. I heard that they were special policemen from Bijeljina. I'm not
12 sure, but that's what people said.
13 Q. Okay. Now, when you got to Bjelovac, what did you do?
14 A. Nothing. I set out. There was a big square area there, and I
15 stopped there to let them out. And I saw that there was a bus there from
16 a Srebrenica company from 1990 when that bus came along, and it was never
17 registered until after the war. I was a little surprised when I saw that
18 bus there. I wondered how it came to be there.
19 Q. Okay. Let me stop you. What was the condition of the bus?
20 A. It was brand new, brand new.
21 Q. Even though you had seen it in 1990, it looked as if it had not
22 been driven. Is that what you're telling us?
23 A. It hadn't moved from the garage in Srebrenica or Potocari, rather.
24 Q. Okay. And what were these -- did you recognise those police
25 officers that were with this particular brand new bus that belonged,
1 presumably, to the Srebrenica municipality?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. What were they doing with the bus?
4 A. When I turned around and stopped behind it, they lifted the back
5 and they were looking at it. And I got out and I said: "What's this bus
6 doing here?" I thought it had brought someone there. And then one of
7 them turned very insolently and spat at me and said: "That's none of your
9 And I realised it was better for me to return to my bus, he might
10 even have slapped me. So I went to our military police and reported to
11 the duty officer to say that those people had taken the bus from
13 Q. All right. Let me stop you. Again, I want to go step by step.
14 So after that incident you got in your bus and you left?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Now, where exactly did you go?
17 A. In the direction of Bratunac.
18 Q. And once you got to Bratunac, where did you go?
19 A. I went to the military police to report this incident concerning
20 this bus.
21 Q. Okay. And what were their response?
22 A. They were insolent -- oh, you mean the military police? I
23 misunderstood you.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. Well, right away they sent a patrol up there. And later on I
1 heard that there had been an incident because they wouldn't -- those
2 policemen there wouldn't agree to hand over that bus. And then the
3 civilian police got mixed up in it until that bus was confiscated from
4 that special police.
5 Q. All right. Is there any particular reason why you went to the
6 Bratunac Brigade military police to report that and not to the civilian
7 authorities, if you recall?
8 A. I was a mobilised soldier, and so of course I felt that I had to
9 report this to the military police.
10 Q. All right. Now, what happened after that? After you made that
11 report to the military police, what did you do?
12 A. I personally?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. After reporting this to the police, I returned home. I told my
15 wife that I was taking the bus to Ljubovija, to Serbia, Yugoslavia,
16 because I said I would not give that bus up, that I would defend it with
17 my life.
18 Q. Okay. And why is that?
19 A. Sir, it was my main source of income, of livelihood, that bus. I
20 have nothing except that bus. If I had allowed it to be used, I would
21 have been left without that bus.
22 Q. Okay. Incidentally, during that day you told us you took two,
23 perhaps three, trips and you went to -- and you made those other couple
24 trips to Potocari that you told us about. Did you need to get gas for
25 your bus, gasoline?
1 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
2 Q. And just so that we're clear, where did you get the gasoline from?
3 A. I got the gasoline from the brigade, the command, from our
4 military warehouse.
5 Q. Okay. That's the same place where you got the oil?
6 A. Yes, the oil, too.
7 Q. All right. Now, did you get permission from the assistant
8 commander for rear services?
9 A. Yes, from Loncarevic.
10 Q. Okay. But wasn't the assistant commander Mr. Trisic?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. All right. Did you have to sign any documents that you
13 were receiving this gasoline, if you recall?
14 A. I had to sign in a notebook. They wrote down how many litres they
15 had given me, and then I had to sign for it. That's all that I had.
16 Q. Incidentally, you said that you knew Mr. Blagojevic from growing
17 up. Correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when he became the commander, did you have an opportunity to
20 meet him, prior to this mobilisation of your bus, when he returned to
22 A. Well, yes, I would encounter him. But first of all I never
23 imagined that he would requisition my bus. I was mobilised as a soldier,
24 but I never thought they would requisition my bus.
25 Q. Okay. Well, my next -- and that's my question. Once you saw that
1 the civilian authorities were requisitioning your bus, why didn't you go
2 and complain to Colonel Blagojevic to see if he could intervene?
3 A. Well, he didn't have any power there, I'm sure.
4 Q. All right. But did you ever make an attempt to meet with him?
5 A. No, I didn't, I didn't.
6 Q. Okay. What did you do the following day?
7 A. I returned up there to the command. When I left my bus there, I
8 went back.
9 Q. So when you say you left your bus there, you left your bus across
10 the river, in Serbia. Correct?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And then you returned to the 2nd Battalion?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.
15 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate your honesty. And if you
16 could please answer the questions of Mr. Stojanovic or the Prosecutor or
17 the Judges, I would most appreciate it. Thank you.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
21 Good morning, Witness.
22 We have no questions of this witness, bearing in mind his
23 testimony today.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 Mr. Shin, some cross-examination?
1 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President, we only have a few questions.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Shin:
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trisic.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. You explained just a little while back that you had informed the
6 commander of the 2nd Battalion that you had -- your bus had been mobilised
7 and you were going to go with your bus. Now, you also mentioned that the
8 commander was a Mr. Stakic, but at one point he hadn't been there. Now,
9 when you did inform your commander, was that Mr. Stakic or was that
10 someone else?
11 A. As Goran Stakic was away at the time, I informed Zoran Jovanovic,
12 who was a security officer. And I said to him that I had to go because
13 they wanted to requisition my bus. I would not allow anybody else to
14 drive my bus. And he said he would inform the battalion commander of
16 Q. Was Zoran Jovanovic one -- as a security officer, was he part of
17 this group of security officers that you were part of?
18 A. I didn't understand. What do you mean?
19 Q. You had explained that you were part of a unit with seven other
20 people that provided security for the battalion commands. Now, was he
21 part of that security group?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What -- was he a military police officer?
24 A. No. He was a security man.
25 Q. For your battalion?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, this was -- I think you explained that this was on the same
3 day that you had been notified. You said that when you had been notified
4 that you were -- that your bus had been mobilised, that you had gone to
5 notify Mr. Jovanovic. Is that correct?
6 A. When they brought that piece of paper to me up there that my bus
7 was to be requisitioned and that either I would drive it or they would
8 find another driver for it, the commander wasn't there. So I said to
9 Zoran: "Zoran, this is how things are: The bus is to be requisitioned.
10 I have to go and get the bus."
11 He said that he would transmit this message to the commander.
12 Q. Okay. And when you say "up there," you mean this is the battalion
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. So you were there at the battalion command on duty, so you were
16 there in your uniform at that time. Correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you also armed as a security officer, were you also armed?
19 A. I wasn't an officer. I was only in charge of seven guards. I
20 didn't have any rank. They were seven men unfit for military service, and
21 when a civilian or an officer wanted to enter the command, they would have
22 to go up and announce them. That's what we did.
23 Q. Did you -- were you armed? Did you carry any side arms?
24 A. No, no, no.
25 Q. Now, who was it who told you that you should go to Potocari?
1 A. I don't understand your question.
2 Q. Who was the person who told you that you should go to Potocari
3 with your bus?
4 A. When I went to see about my bus and why it had been requisitioned,
5 they said to me, Deronjic and Davidovic and those people, that the bus had
6 to go to Potocari to transport the people from Potocari.
7 Q. When you got to Potocari, were there buses already there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall how many buses were there already?
10 A. There was a whole convoy, and I couldn't see. I didn't go out to
11 count the buses, but there were many of them.
12 Q. Did you recognise some of those other buses? Had you seen some of
13 them before?
14 A. There were buses from Vihor, from Zvornik, Drina, from all over
15 the place.
16 Q. Now, we've heard that there were some buses in the
17 Bratunac Brigade. Were there any buses from the Bratunac Brigade that you
18 could recognise there at Potocari?
19 A. You mean the Bratunac Brigade had buses?
20 Q. I take it that means you don't know or do you know whether the
21 Bratunac Brigade had buses?
22 A. Just a moment. I didn't understand. What do you mean the
23 Bratunac Brigade? The Bratunac Brigade, as a brigade, did not have a bus
24 of its own. Vihor gave perhaps two buses for the use of the brigade, but
25 the brigade as such did not own a bus.
1 Q. Were you aware that the brigade had mobilised some buses prior to
2 July 1995?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, you were explaining the process of the loading of the
5 passengers. You had explained to us that they were separating -- or
6 permitting the buses in groups of five to six, and letting some 50 or 60
7 people through at a time. Would you explain to us who "they" are, who
8 were these people who were separating these buses into groups of five or
10 A. When we arrived to load up those people, the special police were
11 there letting three, four, or five buses through at a time. And when they
12 were loaded up, we would move forward. Then they would let some others go
13 through and load up. And then we moved off in a convoy.
14 Q. Did you see any Bratunac Brigade military police officers at the
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, along the routes you passed through Konjevic Polje, is that
18 correct, on your way to Kladanj?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you recall seeing a police checkpoint there?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You left in a group of five or six buses as well, is that correct,
23 on your first trip, let's say?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Prior to arriving at that place in Kladanj where you had to
1 register with that captain, did your convoy or any buses in your convoy
2 stop at any time?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is that -- would that be the same -- would the same be true of
5 your other trips as well, whether it was one other trip or two other
7 A. No. There was always an escort. How then would they be able to
8 stop us?
9 Q. And who was your escort?
10 A. There was always an escort in front. The first time, it included
11 the UN, that vehicle. The second time, I think it was from that special
12 unit, but there always had to be a car escorting us when we went.
13 Q. Now, your bus, what was the make of your bus, manufacturer name?
14 A. Dubrava, Dubrava Zagreb.
15 Q. What colour was your bus?
16 A. My bus had three colours: Yellow, blue, and white.
17 Q. What was the registration number of your bus, if you can remember,
18 the licence plate number.
19 A. 27ZV927294.
20 Q. A final few questions for you. I would like to ask you about the
21 place where you picked up the oil and your fuel. Could you explain a
22 little bit where that is within the Bratunac Brigade area.
23 A. I don't know how well you know the area, but it was a shed, a
24 wooden shed, near the health centre. That's where oil was stored,
25 gasoline, and so on.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE LIU: Any re-direct?
4 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?
6 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE LIU: I guess there's none from the Prosecution's side
9 MR. SHIN: That's correct, there's nothing, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
11 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to
12 give your evidence.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
14 JUDGE LIU: After the hearing is adjourned, Madam Usher will show
15 you out of the room.
16 Well, we'll have a break now and the next witness is waiting, I
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you.
20 We'll have our break and we'll resume at 10.30.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE LIU: The hearing is adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.32 a.m.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. Are you ready for your next
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE LIU: Are there any protective measures?
4 MR. KARNAVAS: None, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
6 Could we have the witness, please.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this witness has been identified as
9 an executioner in this courtroom -- in the evidence in this courtroom by a
10 92 bis witness, just for his own rights.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could have the gentleman step out for a
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: I take offence -- I take offence at the
17 Prosecutor's language and the manner in which he stands up here
18 grandstanding as if we the Defence don't know that individuals have rights
19 and that we somehow failed to advise them of their rights. And I don't
20 think it's proper the way he's grandstanding in front of the public.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think you have to regard the
22 interventions by the Prosecution bona fide. At least this Bench did not
23 know what the Prosecution said. I believe that the Prosecution has the
24 obligation to inform us about any information concerning this witness.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, this matter came up on Friday. At
1 that point, I'll take them at their bona fides, as if we the Defence are
2 totally ignorant about what it is to be a suspect. However, we did
3 provide them with proofing notes. From reading the proofing notes, the
4 Prosecution knows that the individual was told already that he has been
5 fingered by one of their 92 bis witnesses. So it's more or less axiomatic
6 that we as the Defence would have informed this individual of his rights.
7 All I'm saying is that there is a better way of handling this, and I think
8 the way in which it was done was offensive to the Defence. Because it
9 demonstrates, or at least they are trying to demonstrate that we are
10 derelict of our ethical obligations.
11 JUDGE LIU: Did you fulfill your obligations in this aspect?
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour, yes, I have. And we do it with
13 every witness. We try to be very careful, we try to inform them of what
14 the repercussions are, that even if they're not charged here that, you
15 know there may be repercussions down the road. So we do that as a matter
16 of right. One of the first things that we do when we do have a statement
17 from the Prosecution, as we have in this particular case, because it's not
18 merely that he's been fingered, but the Prosecution took a statement where
19 it's very clear that the Prosecutor advised this individual of his rights,
20 and he waived those rights and he gave a statement. It should also be
21 noted from the proofing notes that this gentleman has cooperated both with
22 the local police in Republika Srpska and has also provided testimony
23 before a commission that's dealing with matters regarding Srebrenica.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. For your information, the Bench has not
25 received your proofing notes at this moment.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, we were told the preference would be
2 to e-mail those proofing notes as opposed to faxing them. We faxed them
3 last time and somehow there was -- we can do fax and e-mail as well. We
4 apologise if you didn't get them, but it's my understanding that the
5 proofing notes were e-mailed yesterday, sometime around 4.00 in the
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. The problem with the fax is that
8 it may be some leak out for some information. We did that just for the
9 safety of the witnesses.
10 Well, are you ready for your next witness?
11 MR. KARNAVAS: I am, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, could we have the witness, please.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
16 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: NENAD DERONJIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours.
25 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:
1 Q. Good morning, sir.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. Could you please tell us what your name is.
4 A. My name is Nenad Deronjic.
5 Q. And could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.
6 A. D-e-r-o-n-j-i-c.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Deronjic. Could you please tell us what is
8 your occupation today.
9 A. I'm a policeman.
10 Q. And where are you a police officer?
11 A. In Bratunac.
12 Q. How long have you been a police officer?
13 A. Since 1987.
14 Q. Now, I understand that in Bosnia and Herzegovina there was an UN
15 organisation that was monitoring the police. Is that correct? The IPTF?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And am I correct in that there was a certification process of the
18 police officers in part of the UN's effort to reorganise the -- and to
19 reform the police force in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you please tell us whether you had been recertified to be a
22 police officer.
23 A. Yes, I do have that certificate.
24 Q. Okay. Now, prior to coming here today, you have met with the
25 Prosecution, have you not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you gave a statement. Correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you had a copy of that statement, have you not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it's -- at least the one that I have says that the statement
7 was given on 12 March 2001. Would that be right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. At the time that you gave that statement, did the Prosecution
10 inform you of certain rights that you had because of a certain status that
11 was designated to you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recall, sir, what status they told you that you had prior
14 to the questioning process?
15 A. I remember that they told me that I had the right to an attorney,
16 that I had the right to remain silent, not to speak, and so on.
17 Q. And that was because they considered you a suspect?
18 A. Yes, and it was stated that I was a suspect in the summons.
19 Q. Okay. And if my memory serves me correct, suspects in Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina, under their current law, have to be warned of their rights as
21 well, do they not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And of course being a police officer, you know what it means to be
24 a suspect?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. Now, after you were told that you were a suspect by the
2 Prosecution, did you give a statement?
3 A. Yes, I did give a statement.
4 Q. All right. And since giving that statement, have you been
5 questioned by anyone else?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you please tell us who has questioned you.
8 A. I was questioned by an inspector of the CB of Bijeljina, pursuant
9 to orders from the Prosecutor of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Q. Okay. And who else has questioned you?
11 A. I was also questioned by the inspector of the police station of
12 Bratunac, Mr. Zivanovic, and that was pursuant to orders from the
13 interstate commission for investigating the truth about Srebrenica.
14 Q. All right. Could you please tell us when it was, if you recall,
15 that you gave these statements.
16 A. I don't remember the exact date, but I do know that it was this
18 Q. All right. 2004?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, before coming here today, were you advised by me of your
21 current status, that is the status of a suspect?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And were you also not advised that you could, if you so chose,
24 decline to answer any questions here in court, unless you were ordered to
25 by the Trial Chamber?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And in spite of my warnings, are you still willing to testify here
4 A. Yes, I am willing to testify.
5 Q. Could you please tell us why you have come to testify here today,
6 knowing that you have the status of suspect and knowing that the reason
7 you have that status of suspect is because someone, a Prosecution witness,
8 is accusing you in some executions.
9 A. First of all, I have come here to testify because of the truth and
10 also because of certain problems that I have been having with respect to
11 that accusation or testimony by a certain individual who did what they
13 Q. All right. Now, let's begin.
14 You said that you became a police officer in 1987. Correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you please tell us where you were serving back in 1987 when
17 you began your career as a police officer.
18 A. After I completed my police school, my first employment was at the
19 police station of Gradacac.
20 Q. And where is that located in comparison, say, to Bratunac?
21 A. Well, I don't know how to explain it to you. It's approximately
22 170 kilometres or 180 kilometres from Bratunac on the road to Tuzla,
23 closer to Tuzla.
24 Q. All right. And how long were you a police officer there?
25 A. I was a police officer there for four years.
1 Q. And after that, where did you go?
2 A. After that I went to the police station of Srebrenica.
3 Q. All right. And what year was that, sir?
4 A. 1991.
5 Q. All right. Is there a particular reason, sir, that in 1991 you
6 were transferred to Srebrenica?
7 A. First and foremost, or rather, the first reason was nostalgia for
8 my native town, because I lived in Bratunac which is a little way from
9 Srebrenica and I wanted to be closer to home.
10 Q. All right. So you are from Bratunac?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Now, was there another reason why you made the
13 transfer to Srebrenica, other than wanting to be close to Bratunac, where
14 I assume you have family members?
15 A. Well, there's no specific reason, but I asked for Srebrenica,
16 Bratunac, or Zvornik. The MUP okayed the Srebrenica posting.
17 Q. All right. Which MUP would that be? Is that the Ministry of the
18 Interior, but is there a particular centre that provided this transfer?
19 A. The centre of the security services of Tuzla. That was the main
20 centre for the region.
21 Q. All right. How long were you a police officer in Srebrenica?
22 A. I worked in Srebrenica for barely a year.
23 Q. And then where did you go?
24 A. I went to Bratunac, to the police station in Bratunac.
25 Q. All right. Were you transferred to Bratunac? Was that the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, when you left, were Serb police officers still serving in the
4 police station in Srebrenica?
5 A. There were Serbs who stayed on in Srebrenica, yes.
6 Q. Okay. Now, once you moved to Bratunac, since that point in time,
7 have you been a police officer anywhere else?
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. And so currently you are still a police officer for
10 the Bratunac municipality?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, you started your career as a police officer. Have you moved
13 up to the level of inspector or any other position?
14 A. No.
15 Q. So would it be fair to say that today you are dressed in a police
16 uniform and you are patrolling the streets as a police officer?
17 A. Yes, that's just how it is.
18 Q. Okay. Now, I want to focus your attention to July 1995. Okay.
19 And as a reference point, I'm going to choose July 11, 1995, because
20 that -- we know that on that particular day, Srebrenica fell. Okay?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, do you recall, sir, where you were on that particular day?
23 A. On that particular day I was at the control point at
24 Konjevic Polje.
25 Q. Okay. When you say "control point" or the checkpoint, I take it,
1 how many police officers were there?
2 A. At the checkpoint, depending on the situation, there were at least
3 two policemen, sometimes more.
4 Q. Where were the policemen from?
5 A. Those policemen were from the police station of Bratunac.
6 Q. Do you know, sir, if you and the other policemen that served at
7 that checkpoint had been subordinated to and were working under or for the
8 Bratunac Brigade when you were at that particular location?
9 A. No. They didn't have any role there, anything to do with the
10 Bratunac Brigade.
11 Q. Could you please tell us, based on your recollection, how long
12 that checkpoint existed prior to the fall of Srebrenica.
13 A. I don't know exactly, but it was there for a long time. I don't
14 know exactly how long, but a long time.
15 Q. When we say "a long time," are we speaking weeks? Months? Years?
16 A. Well, years.
17 Q. All right. Now, prior to that occasion on July 11, 1995, when you
18 were serving there at that checkpoint, had you been to that checkpoint
20 A. Yes, often. I was often at that checkpoint and I was scheduled
22 Q. Okay. First, tell us: What was the purpose and function of that
24 A. The purpose of that checkpoint was to control the comings and
25 goings, transport traffic, transport of goods, that kind of thing.
1 Q. All right. May I ask how you were armed when you were at that
3 A. We had side arms, pistols, and automatic rifles.
4 Q. All right. And how were you dressed when you were at that
5 checkpoint, if you recall?
6 A. At the checkpoint, we were dressed in blue camouflage uniforms.
7 Q. All right. And so I take it if someone were to go to that
8 checkpoint, they could visibly notice that you were a member of the MUP,
9 as opposed to being with the military?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Now, could you tell us, please, to the best of your
12 recollection, what sort of shifts did you have when you were at that
14 A. At the checkpoint we frequently had 24-hour shifts.
15 Q. All right. Well, if it was a 24-hour shift, surely you would need
16 some period of time to rest. Were there any facilities or any means for
17 which to catch some sleep if one needed any?
18 A. Yes. At the checkpoint there was a police container with beds for
20 Q. Okay. Was there any jail facilities at that checkpoint? In the
21 event you needed to detain someone and lock them up, were there any
22 facilities available?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Could you please tell us what the communications means were.
25 A. In the official premises, there was a fixed radio station.
1 Q. And was it -- how -- with whom was it connected?
2 A. It was connected with the base, that is to say with the police
3 station at Bratunac.
4 Q. What about the Bratunac Brigade headquarters? Were you connected
5 with them through this communication means?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Hypothetically speaking, if there was an occasion where you needed
8 to communicate with the Bratunac Brigade from that location, since you
9 were not directly linked, could you please tell us how that would have
10 been done.
11 A. That would have been done in the following way: We would have
12 called up the police station at Bratunac, and then they would have
13 contacted the Bratunac Brigade and its command.
14 Q. All right. Now, you indicated that there were these 24-hour
15 shifts in general. Could you please tell us: What was the method of
16 being assigned to the checkpoint?
17 A. Well, there wasn't any special method. A schedule for the
18 services in the police station would be drawn up, and that's how we were
19 deployed to the checkpoint.
20 Q. Who would make up the schedule deploying individual police
21 officers to the checkpoint?
22 A. The schedule or duty roster was compiled by the workers in the
23 police station and Bratunac.
24 Q. All right. At that point in time, sir, who was the individual or
25 individuals, if you are aware of, that kept track of those records?
1 A. The deputy commander, Dragan Nedeljkovic, the deputy,
2 Slavoljub Tesic, and Slavoljub Mladjenovic.
3 Q. Okay. So I take it there was a logbook being kept?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Before coming here today, did you have a chance to look at that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Before meeting with the Prosecution back in 2001, March 12th, did
9 you have a chance to look at that logbook?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And could you please tell us where that logbook is kept.
12 A. That logbook was kept with the deputy komandir Dragan Nedeljkovic
13 in a safe.
14 Q. How were you able to look at that logbook if it was kept in a
16 A. I would ask the deputy komandir, Dragan Nedeljkovic, to give me
17 the logbook to take a look.
18 Q. All right. Now, when you looked at it, were you alone or was
19 Mr. Nedeljkovic there as well, if you recall?
20 A. Mr. Nedeljkovic was present as well.
21 Q. Did you by any chance alter the logbook to insert your name in any
22 place or to erase your name in any places to cover up any activities that
23 you might have been involved in during the critical period, which is July
24 11, say, to July 20th, 1995?
25 A. No.
1 Q. When you met with the Prosecution, did you inform them, if you
2 recall, of the existence of this particular logbook that would reflect
3 your whereabouts on specific days or your duties, the functions which you
4 were carrying out at the time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Aside from this particular logbook, are there any other records
7 kept that you are aware of?
8 A. At the moment, I don't know that there is; however, there were
9 patrol orders for the duties we performed.
10 Q. Okay. And where were those patrol orders kept?
11 A. The patrol orders were archived, but I don't know whether they
12 have been destroyed or not. They were archived in the police station in
14 Q. All right. Did you check by any chance the archives to see
15 whether the patrol orders are available today?
16 A. I did try to check, and I think they're missing. Most probably,
17 they've been destroyed.
18 Q. Okay. Now, the Bratunac police department was part of the Zvornik
19 centre, was it not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you by any chance check with Zvornik, the centre, to see
22 whether any records exist there that might also help us here today?
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. Very well. Now, let me show you what has been marked -- well,
25 before we do that, before we do that, let's talk a little bit
1 about -- let's go through the chronology of the events. You indicated
2 that you were at the checkpoint on July 11, 1995. Could you please tell
3 us where you were the next day, July 12th, 1995, if you recall.
4 A. On the next day, the 12th of July, I was in Bratunac for a period
5 of time and after that in Srebrenica.
6 Q. Could you please tell us at what time or on which day you left the
7 checkpoint at Konjevic Polje to go to Bratunac.
8 A. I left the checkpoint in Konjevic Polje at 0800 hours on the 12th
9 of July.
10 Q. That would be 8.00 in the morning. Right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, was that the normal time period when there would be a change
13 in shift, or was this some sort of a special occasion that you left at
14 8.00 that particular morning?
15 A. Yes. This was the usual time when shifts changed at the
16 checkpoint in Konjevic Polje.
17 Q. Would you please tell us, if you recall, how you left or how you
18 got to Bratunac from Konjevic Polje.
19 A. I can't say exactly which vehicle it was. We had a Golf, an
20 official vehicle, and a Land Rover. I used one of those two vehicles to
21 go to Bratunac.
22 Q. All right. Now, when you got to Bratunac, could you please tell
23 us what you did.
24 A. When I got to Bratunac, I reported to the police station in
25 Bratunac. I handed over the official order I had, on the basis of which I
1 had worked, and I was told by the duty officer that due to the newly
2 arisen situation in Srebrenica, I was to be on standby.
3 Q. All right. Now, when you were on standby, where were you standing
4 by? Did you go home? Were you in the station? Did you walk around, if
5 you recall?
6 A. For a brief period of time, I was in the police station. And then
7 acting on orders, I went to the main crossroads in order to regulate the
9 Q. When you say "the main crossroads," what are we talking about?
10 A. When we say "the main crossroads," we mean the one near the
11 Fontana Hotel where the Srebrenica/Konjevic Polje roads are joined up.
12 Q. That rather busy intersection with the bend?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. Do you recall how you were dressed then?
15 A. I was wearing a blue camouflage uniform.
16 Q. All right. Was there anyone else at that intersection when you
17 were there controlling the traffic, if you recall?
18 A. I don't recall exactly, but I assume there was somebody else.
19 Q. All right. Do you recall how long you were at that intersection
20 controlling the traffic?
21 A. I don't recall exactly how long it was, but it was until the
22 afternoon, around 1500 hours, that I stayed in that area.
23 Q. All right. And where did you go after 1500 hours?
24 A. After 1500 hours we went, acting on orders, in the direction of
1 Q. Let me stop you here. When you say "we," who is "we"?
2 A. "We" means members of the 2nd Company of the special unit of the
3 police of the Zvornik public security station.
4 Q. All right. So in addition to being identified as a member of the
5 Bratunac Brigade -- Bratunac police department, am I to understand you
6 were also -- or inclusive of that, you were a member of the 2nd Company?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I take it you had been a member of the 2nd Company prior to
9 that particular moment when you were told to go towards Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Do you recall about what time it was that you and the
12 others went to Srebrenica?
13 A. I can't tell you the exact time, but it was around 1500 or 1600
14 hours in the afternoon.
15 Q. Could you please tell us, to the best of your recollection, how
16 many of your were there when you went to Srebrenica.
17 A. I don't know exactly how many members there were. This can be
18 established, but there were two buses and several passenger vehicles or
20 Q. Now, was everybody in the 2nd Company from Bratunac or were they
21 from other areas as well?
22 A. No. They were from other areas as well in the area covered by the
23 Zvornik centre.
24 Q. All right. Could you please tell us, if you recall, who was in
25 charge. Who was the komandir.
1 A. You mean the 2nd Company?
2 Q. In the 2nd Company.
3 A. The komandir of the 2nd Company of the special police unit was
4 Slavoljub Mladjenovic.
5 Q. Do you know if this gentleman was with you on that day when you
6 went to Srebrenica?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was there another komandir for the other units, if you know, that
9 went with you to Srebrenica?
10 A. I know only that the chief of the public security station in
11 Srebrenica, Petko Pavlovic, was there. There weren't any other komandirs.
12 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us who then would have been overall
13 in charge of the MUP that had gone to Srebrenica. Was there one person
14 who was in charge of the various MUP that were there?
15 A. I don't know. I only know about the 2nd Company of the special
16 police unit. I only know about that unit, who the komandir was.
17 Q. All right. How long did you stay in Srebrenica?
18 A. As a member of the 2nd Company, I stayed there for seven or eight
19 days. I think it was eight days.
20 Q. Okay. Now, the day that you got there - which, if I have the date
21 right, is 12 July, 1995 - what exactly did you do?
22 A. First of all, on our arrival in Srebrenica, we came to the front
23 of the police station, where we worked on setting up the police station in
24 Srebrenica, and so on.
25 Q. All right. Do you know whether patrols were set up to walk around
2 A. Yes, patrols were set up and so were checkpoints.
3 Q. Do you recall -- well, let me ask you: Did you go on any patrols?
4 Did you walk around?
5 A. Yes. From time to time, I did, yes.
6 Q. Do you recall whether anybody was left behind, any of the Muslim
7 residents of Srebrenica were still there when you and the others arrived?
8 A. Yes. There was a small number of elderly people.
9 Q. All right. Could you please tell us what happened to them, if you
11 A. They were mainly in front of their houses next to the road, and as
12 far as I know there was some vehicles that they got into working order.
13 And then they drove them off to Potocari.
14 Q. Well, who's "they"? Who drove them off to Potocari?
15 A. It was the working unit that drove them to Potocari. That was the
16 name of the group. They were to get certain vehicles into working order
17 and then transport those people to Potocari.
18 Q. Did you see any dead bodies lying around the streets of Srebrenica
19 when you were patrolling?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know if any were found or seen by others?
22 A. I don't know. According to what I heard later, people did say
23 that they had seen some bodies.
24 Q. Okay. So while you didn't see any yourself, you heard that others
25 had seen some bodies?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. And do you know what might have happened to those bodies?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. All right. We talked about July 12th. Could you please tell us
5 what you did the rest of the days. You were there for approximately eight
6 days, you indicated. Could you please give us a general impression of
7 what you did for the other days.
8 A. First of all, as a policeman who worked in Srebrenica before the
9 war, I was duty officer in the police station in Srebrenica. I also
10 worked on the checkpoints in the direction of Zeleni Jadar, the checkpoint
11 near Domavija, and occasionally I patrolled the town. And that was it.
12 Q. All right. Well, how was it that you stayed so long there? Is
13 there any particular reason, if you know?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. During that eight-day period, where were you sleeping?
16 A. During that eight-day period, we had rooms that we had arranged in
17 the police station, and we had rooms in the Srebrenica police station.
18 Q. Did you ever leave Srebrenica during those days?
19 A. No.
20 Q. One detail I wanted to backtrack on. You told us that you went
21 there on the 12th. Could you please describe to us how you got there,
22 what route you took to get to Srebrenica.
23 A. We went to Srebrenica along the road from Bjelovac to Sase,
24 Zalazje and then on to Srebrenica, the playing field, and then on to
1 Q. I take it you did not go through Potocari?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Incidentally, did you ever go to Potocari on that day or the
4 following day, the 12th and 13th, you yourself?
5 A. No. In that period, I did not go toward Potocari at all.
6 Q. During that eight-day period when you were in Srebrenica from the
7 12th onwards, could you please tell us whether you ever left Srebrenica to
8 go anywhere else.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, when you met with the Prosecution, did they inform you that
11 you had been named by a witness as having taken part in certain
13 A. They didn't inform me about that, but I can clarify.
14 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
15 A. They only told me that a certain person had said that I had been
16 seen in Konjevic Polje in that period of time.
17 Q. All right. Now, before coming here today, you had an opportunity
18 to hear what this witness testified to during the Krstic case, did you
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you heard where this individual -- and I'm speaking of
22 this -- this has come in under 92 bis as P797. You heard where this
23 individual places you at a particular date and time at certain executions
24 that occurred in I believe it's Jadar River. Correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now -- and this witness, who incidentally is identified as
2 Witness S, indicated certain things, including that you were part of an
3 execution squad. Concretely speaking, and I want you to look at the
4 Honourable Members of this Trial Chamber, look them in the eye and tell
5 them: Did you participate in those events which Witness S has identified
6 you as being part of? Please look at the Honourable Members of the
7 Trial Chamber and tell them whether you have participated in those events.
8 A. No, I did not participate in those events.
9 Q. Were you in that area on the 12th or the 13th or the 14th of July?
10 A. No, I was not in that area in this period.
11 Q. That area where the witness, Witness S, places you, is that near
12 Konjevic Polje?
13 A. What area do you mean?
14 Q. Well, you heard where -- and I even showed you the pictures, where
15 allegedly this individual was initially picked up and where they take
16 them -- where they took them. That would have been at or near the
17 intersection of Konjevic Polje. Correct?
18 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. All right. And you do not deny being at that intersection on July
20 11th. Correct?
21 A. I do not deny it.
22 Q. All right. But what you're telling us here is on the morning of
23 the 12th at 8.00, you left there shortly after that day, went to
24 Srebrenica, and at no time on the 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th,
25 18th, 19th, 20th, you returned to that area. Is that correct?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, leading.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 You may put your question another way.
4 MR. KARNAVAS:
5 Q. Did you ever return to that area during the period of time in
6 which I just noted in the previous question?
7 A. No, I did not return in that period.
8 Q. All right. And did you tell that to the Prosecutors when they
9 came calling on you in 2001?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now -- incidentally, before I show you this, could you please tell
12 us whether you participated in any atrocities at any point in time during
13 this critical period?
14 A. No, I did not participate in any atrocities.
15 Q. Were you ever told of the identity of Witness S?
16 A. Nobody ever told me the name of that witness, and I don't know who
17 the witness is.
18 Q. Could you please tell us then why would this unknown witness to
19 you, why would he specifically name you as being at that location,
20 committing those atrocities on that particular day, assuming that that's
21 when those atrocities occurred there.
22 A. I really don't know for what reasons that witness named me. I
23 don't even know who the witness is or anything about him.
24 Q. All right. Now, let me show you what has been marked for
25 identification purposes as Defence Exhibit D124.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: And I believe I provided the large copies for
2 everyone. And we can even put one on the ELMO. I don't know how
3 successful that would be. It's not necessary, but --
4 JUDGE LIU: I don't think it's necessary, since everybody has got
5 a copy.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
7 Q. If -- do you see -- first of all, do you know -- do you recognise
8 this document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How is it that you recognise it?
11 A. I recognise it because I had occasion to come across this document
13 Q. Would you please tell us where this document is from.
14 A. This document is from the duty roster by the assistant,
15 Nedeljkovic, Dragan, it's from his book.
16 Q. And is that the same book that you told us was pulled out of the
17 safe for you to look at in front of him?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The same book that you informed the Prosecution that they could go
20 look for if they so wanted to look for the records?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Now, is -- obviously this is a copy of that page, is
23 it not?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, is this copy a fair and accurate representation of what is in
1 that logbook?
2 A. Yes. Yes, it's a fair copy and an accurate copy.
3 Q. All right. Could you please tell us what dates are reflected on
4 this particular page of the logbook.
5 A. On this page of the logbook, the month of July 1995 is reflected
6 and all the days of that month.
7 Q. Well, how do we know that it's July 1995? What is it that tells
8 us that this page reflects that particular month? Is there anything on
9 this that would give us that clue?
10 A. Well, it says here: "July 1995".
11 Q. And could you please tell us on which corner of this document that
12 is located.
13 A. It's at the top, in the top left-hand corner.
14 Q. All right. Is that your handwriting, sir?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So that mark was there on the original logbook when it was copied.
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Do you see your name anywhere on this page?
20 A. Yes, I do see it, under number 36.
21 Q. Could you please tell us whose handwriting that is.
22 A. It's the handwriting of the deputy komandir, Dragan Nedeljkovic.
23 Q. All right. It's a little difficult to read this, but what I would
24 like you to do is please explain to us some of the different initials that
25 we see on this particular document.
1 A. Very well. From the first day of July.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. On the 1st of July I was PR, that is to say standby.
4 Q. Okay. So what does standby -- we're going to go step by step. So
5 when it says "PR," which means standby, what does that include? What are
6 your functions when you are standing by?
7 A. When we are standbys, it means that movement would be imminent,
8 and we were standbys either at the police station or we were placed on
9 standby at home.
10 Q. All right. And how many days are you standby?
11 A. On the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of July.
12 Q. All right. What about the 4th of July? What are you doing?
13 A. On the 4th of July was the service of patrolling around town from
14 2200 to 0600 hours.
15 Q. And how do we know that?
16 A. We know that because it says "P," which is underlined.
17 Q. And what does P stand for?
18 A. P is Pozorna, which is guard service.
19 Q. Guard service. Okay. What about the next day?
20 A. The next day is the 5th and it says 0600 hours, which means that I
21 left the night shift and I was off that day, I had a free day.
22 Q. All right. What about the 7th -- or the 6th -- the 6th?
23 A. The 6th was PR again, which means standby.
24 Q. Okay. Incidentally, do you recall where you were standing by on
25 this day?
1 A. No.
2 Q. But would it be fair to say that when you're standing by you're in
3 Bratunac, not in Konjevic Polje or some other location?
4 A. Yes, in Bratunac.
5 Q. Okay. Now, what about the next day, the 7th?
6 A. On the 7th of July I was at the checkpoint at Konjevic Polje from
7 0800 hours to 0800 hours, which means 24 hours around the clock.
8 Q. Okay. Now, how do we know that you were at Konjevic Polje?
9 A. We had the initials KP, Konjevic Polje, the time from when to
10 when, and the time spent at the checkpoint.
11 Q. Now, we see in that box it says 08 to 08, and underneath it I
12 believe I see a 24. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So the 24 means 24 hours?
15 A. 24 hours of service, yes.
16 Q. All right. Now, if we go to the 8th, what does that say?
17 A. For the 8th it says "08 hours," which means I left the night shift
18 and was off that day.
19 Q. How do we know you were off that day? What tells us that that's
20 an off day?
21 A. Well, according to this schedule, it says "08," which means I was
22 on duty during the night, and I had the next day to rest up because I was
23 on night duty, night shift.
24 Q. Okay. We go to the 9th then. What is that?
25 A. The 9th also says "PR" or standby.
1 Q. The 10th?
2 A. The 10th, Konjevic Polje from 08 hours to 08 hours, 24 hours.
3 Q. All right. And then the 11th. On the 11th, also Konjevic Polje
4 from 08 to 08 hours.
5 Q. Okay. So the 08, the second 08, that would be 08, the 12th of
6 July. Correct? So you're from 8.00 in the morning of the 11th to 8.00 in
7 the morning of the 12th?
8 A. From 8.00 in the morning of the 11th to 8.00 in the morning of the
10 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to the 12th. What do we see here?
11 A. It says here: "08 hours," which means that I worked the night
12 shift. And we would regularly have gone off-duty. But it says BD, which
13 is combat activity, which means that a police company was engaged.
14 Q. Okay.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that the P for Pozorna service
16 was beat or patrol duty, earlier on.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
18 Q. Now, combat duty, I want to talk about that a little bit. What
19 are the initials, first of all, that tells us that it's combat duty?
20 A. The abbreviation which tells us it was combat activity was BD.
21 Q. BD. Now, how many days do we have for BD after the initial one,
22 which is on the 12th?
23 A. We have nine days, but may I be allowed to count them?
24 Q. Okay. Go for it. Certainly.
25 A. Nine days.
1 Q. All right. And it's during this period of time that you've told
2 us that you were in Srebrenica?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How do we know that the BD, combat duty, doesn't mean that you
5 were sent out into the woods to hunt down people so that you could execute
6 them, as the witness has suggested, and as the Prosecution believes?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's leading. It's talking about the belief of
10 the Prosecution; that's not relevant. Ask him a non-leading question, I
11 wouldn't object, especially on this topic, when the document appears the
12 way it appears.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think the last phrase is quite
14 unnecessary, to mention the Prosecution.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I'll withdraw.
16 JUDGE LIU: Would you please rephrase your question.
17 MR. KARNAVAS:
18 Q. How do we know that this BD, that says combat duty, that you were
19 doing something other than being in Srebrenica? How do we know that?
20 A. We know that by the fact that the 2nd Company was engaged at that
21 place, and I was a member of the 2nd Company.
22 Q. All right. And I take it if we were to contact some of the other
23 individuals in -- that you claim, that you claim, were in Srebrenica at
24 the time that you went, they might also be able to tell us whether you
25 were there with them?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Or they might tell us that you were not with them. They would be
3 able to verify one way or the other whether you're telling us the truth
4 here today?
5 A. Yes, you can verify that.
6 Q. Okay. And just so we are absolutely clear, to the best of your
7 recollection when you went to Srebrenica on that mission, starting on the
8 afternoon of July 12th, who was your komandir, your commanding officer, at
9 that time for that particular mission?
10 A. At that time, on that mission, it was Company Commander
11 Slavoljub Mladjenovic.
12 Q. And may I ask: Where is that gentleman located today?
13 A. Slavoljub Mladjenovic is located today in Bratunac.
14 Q. I don't recall right now whether you mentioned this name to the
15 Prosecution when they were interviewing. Having read your statement, do
16 you recall whether you informed them who your commanding officer was at
17 that point in time, in the event they wanted to take the trouble to go to
18 Bratunac to meet with this individual and talk to them?
19 A. Yes, I did tell them who the commanding officer of the 2nd Company
21 MR. KARNAVAS: At this point in time, Your Honour, I have no
22 further questions.
23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Deronjic. You will be questioned by
24 Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps, the Prosecutor, the Judges. I would most
25 appreciate it if you would be as honest and forthright with them as you
1 were with me. Thank you.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas. We'll sit until 12.00 sharp.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to this witness?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. In view of our
5 position, it is clear that we do not have any questions for this witness.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
7 Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey:
10 Q. Good morning. Can you first of all tell us a little bit more
11 about the 2nd Company. Is -- for example, is that known as the
12 2nd Company of PJP from Zvornik?
13 A. Yes, it is the 2nd Company of the PJP from Zvornik.
14 Q. And is that one of several companies that are organised out of
15 Zvornik of police officers to take part in combat duties when
16 necessary -- or other duties at some times?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. For example, I think it was the 6th Company which had several men
19 stationed at Konjevic Polje in this period up -- leading up to the fall of
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the 6th Company was mostly older men. Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is it true that the companies were divided like from 1 to 6,
25 and that the 1st Company and the 2nd Company were the more fit, younger,
1 military-able men?
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. And as you've said, your company, the 2nd Company, that was made
4 up of people all over the -- from the Zvornik municipality?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in -- for that period of July 1995, can you tell us roughly
7 how many men would have been on the duty roster for the 2nd Company.
8 A. Well, I don't know the exact number of the members from the
9 2nd Company from Bratunac, but there might have been seven or eight
10 deployed at -- amongst the police stations of the centre. And then we can
11 learn the number that way.
12 Q. Okay. But about how many total from the other police centres? I
13 think you've mentioned some of the Milici, Skelani, Vlasenica.
14 A. Milici, Skelani, Vlasenica, Zvornik, Sekovici. I don't know
15 exactly, but seven or eight people from the police station from the
16 members of the other -- of the 2nd Company. So if you multiply that
17 number with the police stations, that would give you the total.
18 Q. So about five police stations, seven or eight people per station.
19 35, 40, something like that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you know most of the people that were on the 2nd Company?
22 A. I knew all the members from the Bratunac police station, and I
23 also knew some people from other police stations.
24 Q. Did you know most of the people from the other police stations, at
25 least by sight, that was on the 2nd Company?
1 A. I can't remember exactly, but yes, I did know -- well, not a lot
2 of people, but ...
3 Q. You did know them?
4 A. I knew them, but superficially. I didn't know them.
5 Q. Okay. Were -- all the unit commanders for the 2nd Company, you've
6 already mentioned them?
7 A. Yes. I knew the commanding officer of the 2nd Company personally.
8 Q. Were there any other commanders for July 1995 besides I think it's
10 A. There was just his deputy, the deputy company commander.
11 Q. And you mentioned his name as well?
12 A. No, I don't think I mentioned his name. But if you want me to
13 give you the name of the deputy, I can.
14 Q. Yes, please.
15 A. Goran Djelemic, I think it was.
16 Q. And where was Mr. Djelemic on the 12th, 13th, 14th of July?
17 A. I don't know where he was. All I said was that he was the deputy,
18 the deputy of Slavoljub Mladjenovic, but I can't remember whether he was
19 up there with us at Srebrenica.
20 Q. Okay. I just want to ask you to help us -- there's an English
21 language translation that doesn't fit B/C/S very well. So I want to ask
22 you about that a little bit. Sometimes your PJP company gets referred to
23 as a special police company. Is that right?
24 A. No, that's not right. Our company's name was special -- or
25 special police unit.
1 Q. All right. That's the problem. It's this special police unit,
2 and it's not your problem. It's an English/B/C/S problem.
3 Can you distinguish your unit that you've talked to from the, for
4 example, the 2nd Sekovici Detachment of the special police? Are they two
5 different things, your 2nd Company and the 2nd Sekovici Detachment of the
6 special police?
7 A. They were two quite different units.
8 Q. Right. The 2nd Sekovici Detachment was under Mr. Borovcanin. And
9 you were basically under Dragomir Vasic from the CSB Zvornik. Is that
11 A. Yes. The main chief of the centre of the public security centre
12 Zvornik was Dragomir Vasic.
13 Q. Do you know if the 1st PJP unit was assigned to work under the
14 command of Mr. Borovcanin around this time period, 11, 12 July?
15 A. No, I don't know.
16 Q. Okay. Now, when you were -- when did you first start hearing
17 about getting organised as a -- as the 2nd Company of the PJP, as opposed
18 to being an individual police officer that had been assigned to the
19 Konjevic Polje checkpoint? When did you first hear that you were going to
20 be -- your 2nd Company PJP unit was getting organised?
21 A. I don't know the exact date. However, in that organisation and
22 establishment of the PJP company, I took part. I didn't organise it, but
23 I was present when those companies were established.
24 Q. What I mean is: Specifically you have described yourself, I
25 believe, as on the morning of the 12th of July you wake up, I believe, as
1 a Bratunac police officer about ready to get off your assignment at
2 Konjevic Polje, and then you've testified that you went to Srebrenica
3 later that day as part of the 2nd Company PJP. So is that correct? Or
4 were you in Konjevic Polje as part of the 2nd Company?
5 A. No. The 2nd Company and all the other companies were activated in
6 certain situations and at certain periods.
7 Q. Right. So you were not a member of the -- you were not an
8 activated member of the 2nd Company while you were in Konjevic Polje on
9 the 12th. Is that right?
10 A. Yes. I performed police duties, which means duties from the
11 police domain at Konjevic Polje.
12 Q. So when did you first hear that you were going to be activated as
13 a member of the 2nd Company?
14 A. For the July period or before?
15 Q. For that July 11th, 12th period. Did they tell you on the 11th,
16 the next day you were going to be a -- the 2nd Company was getting
17 together? Or did you not hear until the 12th?
18 A. I heard about that on the 12th of July.
19 Q. And what time?
20 A. Well, I think it was around 12.00.
21 Q. From who?
22 A. I can't remember who said that, but it could have been the duty
23 officer. It could have been the police duty officer, or it could have
24 been the -- any of the chiefs who were at the premises of the Bratunac
25 police station. It could have been any of those.
1 Q. So the group that went down to Srebrenica, was this that 35, 40
2 people that you have talked about from the different areas, including
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was there any part of the 2nd Company that was sent somewhere
7 A. I don't know about that, but I don't think so. I don't think
8 anybody was sent somewhere else.
9 Q. Well, on the afternoon/evening hours of the 12th of July, Muslims
10 from Srebrenica, armed Muslims, were breaking through the area around
11 Konjevic Polje, and that was a combat zone. Were you aware of that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you're aware that Konjevic Polje has become a combat zone
14 shortly after the time that you left it. So you must have been relieved
15 to have been able to get the assignment to go down to Srebrenica, which
16 was not a combat zone?
17 A. You could put it that way.
18 Q. And were any of your colleagues so unlucky that they got assigned
19 to go to the combat zone, Konjevic Polje, Ravni Buljim, Cerska?
20 A. I don't know about that. I know that they were at Konjevic Polje,
21 that that's where the 6th Company was. Now, as to the rest, to the other
22 areas, I don't know if anybody went.
23 Q. Well, I'm talking about the 2nd Company, your crew. You would
24 have known if they had been in the combat -- if some of them would have
25 gotten sent to combat, wouldn't you?
1 A. No, no. Those of us who went up there, they didn't send us to any
2 other places except to the area around the town of Srebrenica.
3 Q. Now, in this --
4 A. Can I have some water, please.
5 Q. Please. Any time you need water.
6 And in this document that you brought us this copy of, it was
7 Exhibit 124, sorry. From 12 July through about 20 July, it says BD, which
8 means combat activities. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You've earlier described that your activities in Srebrenica were
11 patrolling the streets, staying at checkpoints. So are you suggesting
12 that combat activities is what you were doing in Srebrenica when you were
13 patrolling the streets and manning a checkpoint?
14 A. Well, you know what, this activation of the 2nd Company in itself,
15 regardless of which area you would go and what you would do, that in our
16 logbook, in our daily logbook, would be written down and recorded as BD,
17 as combat activity. They couldn't write down beat duty or patrol duty
18 because we were already members of the 2nd Company. So they couldn't
19 write down "Pozorna Sluzba".
20 Q. Let's see what they did write down. From 21 July through about 29
21 July, my translation says "SJB Srebrenica." Is that correct? So by this
22 document you're not doing SJB Srebrenica until 21 July. And before that,
23 you're doing combat duties.
24 A. Yes. However -- may I be allowed to explain, please?
25 Q. Always.
1 A. On that date I moved to work as a police officer in the Srebrenica
2 police station, because I -- that's the area I worked in before the war.
3 And the order, from the chief of the public security centre, was any old
4 policeman who had worked before the war, should move to Srebrenica to work
5 in the police there.
6 Q. That's your explanation for this?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Did you want to break at 12.00 noon,
9 Mr. President?
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Is this a good time for the break?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's as good as any. I shouldn't be, hopefully,
12 too long. I should be able to finish certainly today.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll have a break and we'll resume at 12.30.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please continue.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Sir, I want to show you a logbook that you might be able to help
19 us identify. You may or may not recognise it.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for Your Honours, the photocopy of the book is
21 847. And we have a partial English translation. We have it for the 12th
22 of July and for the 14th of July. Unfortunately, there was some
23 complications with the 13th of July, but I think the witness should be
24 able to help us with that. And if I could just -- I also brought in the
25 original book that we have. If we could show the original to the witness.
1 Q. And if you could just take the book.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could get the English for the ELMO.
3 Q. And first, before opening the book, can you just read us what the
4 front of the actual original book says.
5 A. "Duty roster, Srebrenica SV, of the 12th of July, 1995."
6 Q. Have you seen this book before today?
7 A. I don't remember having seen it.
8 Q. You had mentioned a document. I think you called it patrol record
9 or something. Is this it or is this something different?
10 A. This is the duty roster in the Srebrenica public security station.
11 Q. Is that different than the record you told Mr. Karnavas about when
12 you said that there should be another record that might help us out?
13 A. I said there might be patrol orders. That's an order you get when
14 you set out on a patrol, and you always carry it with you. When you
15 complete your patrol, you fill in the form and hand it in at the police
17 Q. That's the order you told us about that you handed in on the
18 morning of the 12th in the Bratunac police station?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you find that order when you were looking for records?
21 A. No, I didn't find it.
22 Q. Okay. Well, if you could just help us with this book. This
23 hopefully won't take long. If you could just open up the next page and
24 tell us what's in that, if it's anything significant. I just want to
25 understand. What does that next page say?
1 A. On the next page it says: "Duty roster book."
2 Q. Okay. So it's just a repeat of what was on the cover?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. So then let's go to the next page, and I think that's the
5 next page we have the actual translation for. And we see that it says
6 "12 July," and it lists various things, which unfortunately -- "work in
7 the police station," various other duties.
8 Do you see your name for 12 July?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. And that's under what is the title "sector 1"?
11 A. Yes, yes, sector 1.
12 Q. And what was sector 1 at the time?
13 A. I don't know, but I think it was the Domavija hotel.
14 Q. Was this in Srebrenica?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Okay. Now, could you go to the next time you see your name. I
17 believe it's 13 July, and unfortunately the English -- we didn't get an
18 English of 13 July.
19 Do you find 13 July in the book?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. And where is your first name -- where is your name first noted?
22 A. My name is noted 13th July, 1995, duty service from 19 to 07.
23 Q. And where is that service?
24 A. In the police station in Srebrenica.
25 Q. And is that 1900 hours?
1 A. 1900 hours in the evening until 0700 hours in the morning of the
2 next day.
3 Q. So that's 7.00 p.m., 13 July, to the morning of 14 July?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I think there's another reference on 13 July for your name. Could
6 you take a look further in the book -- on the 13th. It may be the next
7 page. Do you see yourself again?
8 A. Yes, I do, under number 1.
9 Q. And what is number 1?
10 A. This is just a list with ordinal numbers.
11 Q. And is there a heading where your assignment was above your name?
12 A. The title is: "Security Domavija Drina."
13 Q. And that may be on page 5 of the English translation.
14 Unfortunately the translation just left off the fact that this came under
15 the heading of 13 July in the book.
16 And what are the hours that you're listed for the Domavija hotel?
17 A. Security of Domavija/Drina from 07 to 19.
18 Q. Now, do you have any recollection of where you were actually
19 working on the 13th of July?
20 A. I can't remember exactly, but if it says here that it was
21 Domavija, I think we were up there by the Domavija Hotel.
22 Q. Okay. Well, according to the record you last read out to us it
23 was 0700 hours to 1900 hours at the hotel. And then the first record you
24 read to us from the 13th was from 1900 hours to the following morning. So
25 did you work that long?
1 A. I was able to work that long because at the police station in the
2 duty service we had beds and we could have a rest.
3 Q. Where were you resting, which one of these 12-hour periods?
4 A. You mean in the police station?
5 Q. Yes. Do you know when you took your rest on the 13th of July?
6 A. On the 13th of July, I could have taken a rest from 1900 to 0700
7 hours in the police station during my shift of duty.
8 Q. Okay. And if you could look just closer at that -- the Domavija
9 Hotel entry next to your name where it says 0700 to 1900. Do you see
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does it look like someone has marked over and changed the numbers
13 there with a pen?
14 A. There are some indications, but I think somebody must have made an
15 error. Maybe they wanted to state a different time. Yes, but it does
16 seem to have been changed.
17 Q. Nobody else is changed on that day, is it?
18 A. No, no one else is changed.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
20 Now, I want to show you a document that's been marked as P665.
21 It's in evidence in this case. And you've earlier told us that
22 Dragomir Vasic was the boss of CSB Zvornik. And I've got a copy of the
23 B/C/S for you to take a look at, 665B. It's not easy to read, but it's
24 readable. And this is a report about some -- the activities dated 12
25 July. And I'll just go over it a bit with you. Most of the early parts
1 where it talks about General Mladic and a meeting we don't need to talk
2 about. It talks about some of the events in Potocari. And then on
3 paragraph 5 it says: "Acting upon the -- President Karadzic's order,
4 which conveyed to us today over the phone, the 2nd Company of the Zvornik
5 PJP, two platoons, 60 men, shall be dispatched to Srebrenica with a task
6 to secure all facilities of vital importance in the town, at all costs,
7 and protect them from looting and misappropriation."
8 So is that your unit?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And were there two platoons, like it says here?
11 A. I think there were two platoons.
12 Q. Okay. It goes on to say: "It will carry out the task without
13 cooperation of military police which is busy with other tasks."
14 Is that correct? You didn't have any MPs down there in Srebrenica
15 with you?
16 A. No, we didn't have any, so it's correct.
17 Q. Is a platoon about 30 men?
18 A. Approximately, yes.
19 Q. Okay. The last line says: "A platoon of this company will lie in
20 ambush at Ravni Buljim, since the Muslim groups were spotted fleeing along
21 this axis."
22 You know where Ravni Buljim is, I take it?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And we had talked about the combat area around Konjevic Polje,
25 Ravni Buljim. This Ravni Buljim is the area where the combat with the
1 Muslims is taking place on 12 and 13 July, isn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you part of the platoon from your company that was in ambush
4 at Ravni Buljim?
5 A. No, and I don't even know whether that platoon went to that area.
6 Q. You said earlier that you know most of the people in your
7 platoon -- in your company. And given the combat that was going in that
8 area, if they had been there, I'm sure you would have heard something
9 about it, wouldn't you?
10 A. While we were up there, I didn't hear about it. I don't know.
11 Q. Okay. All right. Let me show you another document. This has
12 been marked Exhibit 848. And it's a document -- if we could put the
13 English on the ELMO, the front page. It's got a title on it:
14 "Republika Srpska, Ministry of the Interior, public security centre,
15 Zvornik." 12 July, the date. And it says -- it's entitled "Bulletin."
16 Can you put the B/C/S version on the ELMO so the Court can see
17 what you're seeing. Now, first of all, can you tell us what a bulletin is
18 that would come from -- this is Rodoljub Vidakovic, the operations duty
19 officer for that day. Can you just briefly tell us what the operations
20 duty officer's reports or bulletins are, if you know.
21 A. The bulletins, as far as I know, are reports by certain persons
22 who can submit their report to someone. So it's a kind of report.
23 Q. All right. And this handscratching on the front of it, do you
24 recognise that handscratching or can you offer an opinion of what it might
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, it's a compound question. We can take
2 it step by step, because he's also asking in the second part of the
3 question, this compound question, to guess or to offer some sort of a
4 speculative opinion.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's go step by step.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Have you ever been the duty officer writing bulletins like this?
10 A. We didn't write bulletins like this, but we wrote similar sorts of
11 reports. I don't know what this bulletin is about, because I haven't read
13 Q. Can you give us your opinion on what these handwritten remarks
14 might be.
15 A. No, I have no idea what they might mean. No.
16 Q. Well, let's go over just some of the information. Maybe we can
17 help. In the right corner it says: "Konjevic Polje, 2nd Company." And
18 underneath it says: "Sandici, 1st Company."
19 Now, did you know on the 12th of July where the 1st Company of the
20 PJP Zvornik was?
21 A. No, I didn't know that.
22 Q. Did you know that on the 13th of July the 1st Company of the PJP
23 Zvornik was actually in Sandici on a video?
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't mean to be disruptive here, but it would
2 appear that counsel is testifying now. First he testified as to what's on
3 this document, as opposed to allowing the gentleman to identify what's in
4 it. And now he appears to be testifying, giving testimony.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the witness said that he didn't know
6 that in all the way. So what's the problem? I don't see any problem.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.
8 JUDGE LIU: We'll proceed.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. There's a famous video that people have been watching for years
11 and years of the road between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac. Have you seen
12 parts of that video?
13 A. I didn't have an opportunity of seeing this.
14 Q. Okay. It says: "A K-9 unit in Liplje."
15 Liplje, we know, is a little south than Zvornik. Was there in the
16 CSB Zvornik or one of the police stations a dog or some kind of a dog
18 A. As far as I know, there was no such unit during the war, in the
19 police stations.
20 Q. Okay. And as we go down it says: "IV Srebrenica," and then under
21 that is: "2nd Company." And then there's numbers underneath there. Do
22 you know what IV Srebrenica is. I think it's roman numeral, Srebrenica.
23 Yeah, IV, Srebrenica.
24 A. Believe me, I don't know. I assume the 2nd Company was planned
25 for Srebrenica or something like that.
1 Q. Okay. And just as we go on later on the next page under combat
2 activities it -- if you could just take a look at the next page. It talks
3 about some of the companies, but your company is not mentioned here. But
4 it does say: "The 6th Company, PJP, was in the area Konjevic Polje," like
5 you've told us, "as well as Han Pogled." Where is Han Pogled?
6 A. Han Pogled overlooks Vlasenica. It's above Vlasenica in the
7 direction of Han Pijesak.
8 Q. So a good distance away from the Srebrenica event.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Now, we have just I think one more. It's 849. It's
11 another bulletin. And if we could put the English on the front page and
12 give you a chance to see the B/C/S. The operations duty officer that day
13 was Vlado Kovacevic. It's dated 14 July. If we could put the front of
14 the -- or the title page on the ELMO. Under the bulletin it says:
15 "Bulletin of daily events of the Zvornik public security centre for 13/14
17 So it starts out with paragraph 1: "Combat activities."
18 Unfortunately there had been some men killed. Then there's some typical
19 criminal events. There may be, perhaps, some looting. And law and order
20 and traffic. Various, it looks like, police tasks.
21 But if you could take a little closer look at paragraph 5:
22 "Other business."
23 "Due to infiltration of enemy military formations from Srebrenica
24 into the zone of Zvornik CJB and areas of Konjevic Polje, Cerska,
25 Han Pogled, Dzafin Kamen, Snagovo, Maricici, and other places at risk, the
1 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th Companies of the Zvornik CJB are engaged. In
2 coordinated action with the police from Doboj, Bijeljina, and Pale, as
3 well as the VRS, they are laying ambushes."
4 Did you and your group get called out of Srebrenica to go
5 coordinate and work with the VRS on the 13th and 14th of July to lay
6 ambushes, in the area described here including Konjevic Polje?
7 A. No. No, no, we didn't get called out to do that.
8 Q. And you know -- I take it you know nothing about why the
9 2nd Company, your company, is noted taking part in those activities in
10 this official bulletin?
11 A. Believe me, I don't know. I didn't find out anything about this.
12 I didn't know anything about this bulletin.
13 Q. Now, when you were in Konjevic Polje on the 11th and early morning
14 of the 12th, what Bratunac police officers were there then? There weren't
15 too many, I take it. Do you remember which ones were there?
16 A. First of all, there was Mirko Peric and I think Goran Ostojic was
17 there, too, but I'm not sure about him.
18 Q. How about Dragisa Zekic?
19 A. Dragisa Zekic was a member of the 6th Company, and he was in
20 Konjevic Polje at the time on combat duty. Most probably he was listed as
21 performing combat duty at that time.
22 Q. Did you see him there on the 11th or --
23 A. I don't remember, but I'm sure I did because he must have stopped
24 by the checkpoint in Konjevic Polje, because they were billeted near the
25 checkpoint in Konjevic Polje.
1 Q. How about the 12th of July when you left -- when you say you left
2 to Zvornik -- sorry, to Bratunac. Do you know if you saw Dragisa Zekic
4 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
5 Q. Now, this person by the name of Mirko, what was Mirko's last name?
6 A. Mirko Peric.
7 Q. Had he been a police officer in Bratunac before the war?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Had something happened for him to lose his job?
10 A. Yes. Before the war, he lost his job. I don't know why, but
11 during the war he was re-activated in the police station in Bratunac.
12 Q. Was he ever a waiter when he was -- after loosing his job?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where?
15 A. At the Fontana Hotel. I don't know whether he worked in other
16 catering facilities within the town area, but I know that he worked at the
17 Hotel Fontana for sure.
18 Q. Did you work with a Muslim before the war named Hasan Salihovic?
19 A. Yes. Hasan Salihovic. Should I give additional explanations?
20 Q. Sure.
21 A. We finished school together. The school for internal affairs in
22 Sarajevo, the police academy. We got our first jobs together. We were
23 transferred to Srebrenica together. We were practically inseparable.
24 Q. What was his father's name?
25 A. I think it was Hasib.
1 Q. When was the last time you saw him alive?
2 A. I don't know. I didn't see him during the war. Before the war, I
3 was at their house. I even spent the night at their house.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can go into private session just briefly.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.
6 [Private session]
12 Page 8221 – redacted – private session.
12 Page 8222 – redacted – private session.
3 [Open session]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. The logbook abbreviation is BD. Borbena Dejstva. That means
6 combat activities. Correct?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. And we've heard your explanation of that. Do you stand by it
10 A. Yes. That abbreviation means combat activities, and that's that.
11 Q. And you don't have any knowledge of what the 2nd Company was up
12 to, whether they were laying ambushes in Ravni Buljim or assigned to
13 Konjevic Polje or anything else outside of Srebrenica?
14 A. I don't know. But if I may explain?
15 Q. Sure.
16 A. The first task of the 2nd Company, to the best of my knowledge,
17 was, and that's where I was, to protect property in Srebrenica, to prevent
18 any looting in Srebrenica, things like that. I did not have the
19 opportunity of hearing any other orders or did I hear of anyone going to
20 that area.
21 Q. This logbook says you got to Srebrenica on the 21st, and before
22 that you were involved in combat activities. Right?
23 A. Yes. It says that I was transferred to the police station of
24 public security in Srebrenica, on the 21st.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE LIU: Any re-direct?
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President.
3 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
4 Q. Sticking with that logbook, on the 21st when you were transferred
5 to the police station, in what capacity were you transferred as?
6 A. I was transferred because I worked in Srebrenica before the war.
7 And the order of the centre of public security head was that all the
8 policemen who worked in Srebrenica before the war should return to the
10 Q. By that particular date, was the police station set up? Had it
11 been re-activated completely and set up?
12 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but the organisation had already been
13 established and some work was already being done.
14 Q. All right. Now, the Prosecutor asked you a question: How is it
15 that this gentleman, Witness S, would single you out?
16 Is it not a fact, sir, that yesterday you asked me to provide you
17 the identity of the individual so you could sue that individual in courts
18 for slandering you?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Leading and civil suits related to -- I don't see
22 how it's relevant.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE LIU: I don't think that is a leading question, because we
25 mentioned that issue already.
1 And you may proceed, Mr. Karnavas.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
3 Q. Do you recall --
4 JUDGE LIU: But be careful that some of the testimony in the
5 cross-examination was given in private session.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not going to disclose anything, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.
8 MR. KARNAVAS:
9 Q. Do you recall that, sir? Did you not ask me what procedures you
10 could follow through in order to seek some sort of justice through the
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. And upon asking me that question, I did not disclose to you who
14 that individual was. Correct?
15 A. Correct, correct.
16 Q. Now, you were shown some bulletins. I just want to go through
17 them just very quickly. The last -- and I'm referring to -- the first one
18 is P4 -- 848. I don't know if it's -- if the gentleman has it. But if I
19 could -- I just want to read the operation duty officer's name.
20 Rodoljub Vidakovic. Do you know this gentleman?
21 A. I do know Rodoljub Vidakovic.
22 Q. Now, it says here that this was in Zvornik 12 July 1995. Did you
23 see him on 12 July 1995? Did you have any contact with him, if you
25 A. You mean Rodoljub Vidakovic?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. No, I had no contact with him, nor did I see him.
3 Q. Okay. And I take it the Prosecution didn't show you that either
4 when they met with you back on 2001, the document so you could perhaps
5 give them some explanation?
6 A. No, they did not show it to me.
7 Q. Now, if I could show you the next exhibit, the next bulletin,
8 which would be P849. We have the name of Vlado Kovacevic. And this
9 is -- it says: "Zvornik, 14 July 1995."
10 First of all, do you know Mr. Kovacevic?
11 A. No. I don't know Vlado Kovacevic.
12 Q. Do you know whether someone from Zvornik contacted you that day
13 for you to provide them with any information?
14 A. No, no one contacted me and I was not in charge of that anyway.
15 Q. Did the Prosecutor show you this document when they met with you
16 back in 2001 so you could perhaps give them some sort of an explanation?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Before coming here today, have you seen these documents before?
19 A. No. I have never seen these documents before, the documents shown
20 to me now.
21 Q. Now, going to the other exhibit, which was P847, that was the
22 notebook. If we could hand the gentleman the original one. The
23 Prosecution showed you one particular page, I think it was the 13th. I
24 seem not to have it in my copy here of the exhibit. But that's where
25 there seems to be some sort of a correction on the hours next to your
1 name. Is that correct? The one that was pointed out to you by the
3 A. Yes. It can be seen here that some unnecessary things were done
4 here in pencil, but I think that happened inadvertently.
5 Q. All right. Now, if you could look at that book, that logbook, at
6 least tell us if that is the only correction that was made on that
7 logbook, that we can perhaps then draw some conclusions. Do you see any
8 other places where there might be corrections where somebody's name is
9 erased or changed, dates have been -- or time periods have been re-marked
11 A. Well, on different pages, yes. On the first page, for instance,
12 it says the 12th of July. Then there is the sector here and so on.
13 Q. Would you know why that was changed there?
14 A. Well, most probably because of some things that I believe were not
15 intentional, because there are things like that on the other page, too.
16 Q. Okay. And if we were to go through this logbook, we would see a
17 variation of corrections, would we not, where things have been crossed
18 over, written over. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I take it you have no explanations as to why we have that?
21 A. No, I do -- I have no explanations.
22 Q. Before coming here today, have you seen this logbook before? Have
23 you physically seen this logbook before?
24 A. Before, I saw it most probably at the police station in Srebrenica
25 while I was on duty there, because this book was in the duty officer's
2 Q. All right. When was the last -- before coming here today and
3 seeing this original one, when was the last time that you had seen this
5 A. I last saw the logbook when we were over there, in Srebrenica.
6 That was 1995. Later on I was not in a position to see it.
7 Q. When did you transfer to Bratunac? Because you indicated to us
8 that now you are a police officer at Bratunac. When did you transfer
10 A. The police station in Bratunac you mean?
11 Q. Yes. When did you transfer back to Bratunac?
12 A. In 1996, I was transferred to the border police, at my own
14 Q. All right. Do you know where this logbook has been kept all this
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Do you know where the Prosecutor got a hold of this logbook before
18 you saw it today?
19 A. No, I did not know.
20 Q. Did you see this logbook before you went to have your interview
21 with the Prosecutor's office back in 2001?
22 A. In 1995, yes, but ever since, no.
23 Q. All right. But I just want to make sure that we're clear. We
24 know that you checked the other logbook that was in the safe in Bratunac
25 before you went to your interview. My question is: Did you look at that
1 logbook before going to meet with the Prosecution?
2 A. No, I did not look at it.
3 Q. Did you give any instructions to anyone to go there, find it, and
4 make corrections on July 13th?
5 A. No, I did not. I gave no instructions in relation to this
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
9 Questions by the Judges. Judge Vassylenko.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Gospodin Deronjic, where were you during the
12 nine days between 12 to 20 July 1995? In Srebrenica, or outside
14 A. Your Honour, throughout this time that you referred to, I was in
16 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Was there combat activity in Srebrenica at that
18 A. In that period of time, there was no combat activity in the town
19 of Srebrenica.
20 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: But the logbook says that you participated in
21 combat activity during these days.
22 A. It was only the 2nd Company that was activated, and that was
23 recorded here in the logbook as combat activities, while we went there to
24 prevent looting, any harm done to property, and so on.
25 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: You mentioned the deputy commander of the
1 Srebrenica police station, Petko Pavlovic. Do you know if he is still a
2 police officer? And in that case, where he serves.
3 A. Your Honour, Petko Pavlovic works in the state border service. He
4 is the commander of the police station in Zvornik, of the border police,
5 that is.
6 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: You also mentioned that deputy commander of the
7 2nd PJP was Goran Djelemic. Could you please spell his last name.
8 A. Goran, and then D-j-e-l-e-m-i-c.
9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Do you know where this man is today? Is he an
10 active police officer, and if so, where he serves?
11 A. As far as I know, Your Honour, I think that he is the commander of
12 the police station of Kozluk, near Zvornik.
13 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: My last question: During the -- this critical
14 period in July 1995, have you contacted Colonel Blagojevic or has
15 Colonel Blagojevic contacted you?
16 A. Your Honour, I never had any personal contact with Mr. Blagojevic.
17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Hvala. I have no more questions.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 Any questions out of Judge's questions? Mr. Karnavas?
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Just one.
21 Further examination by Mr. Karnavas:
22 Q. If I understand you correctly, is it the fact that you were
23 activated into the 2nd Company that it's your understanding why it says
24 "combat activity" here?
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's leading. It's the exact same leading
2 question as before. The person has asked the question. It's too late.
3 It's over.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm entitled to a clarification. That's why I
5 phrased it, Your Honour. If it was my understanding so we have a clear
6 record as to exactly what his understanding is.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, try to rephrase your question, but you have to
8 bear in mind that this question has been gone over many, many times.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay, Your Honour.
10 Q. I just want to -- you've indicated to us that you were not
11 involved in any combat activity once you went to Srebrenica. Could you
12 please clarify for us: If you were not involved in any combat activity,
13 why is it that it notes on the logbook -- why we have these initials
15 A. Well, this is what it is about: In the logbook, in the duty
16 roster book, the commander or the deputy commander wrote down combat
17 activities because the 2nd Company was activated, because he could not
18 record all of us. I mean, not the beat duty or other duties that took
19 place in Srebrenica. I mean, he could not write down beat duty in
20 Srebrenica or something like that.
21 Q. Okay. One last question: You indicated on direct that your
22 komandir was -- I believe it's Mladjenovic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know where he is located today and what he does?
25 A. Mr. Mladjenovic is in Bratunac today. He is no longer a member of
1 the police. I don't know what he does. He hasn't regulated his status
2 anywhere yet.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Very briefly.
7 Further cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
8 Q. This logbook where you were clarifying your response about that
9 entry, did you look at this logbook and this entry before speaking to the
10 Office of the Prosecutor in Banja Luka?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You didn't bring a copy of it and give it to the Prosecutor,
13 though, did you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You're a police officer. You know how to get police reports and
16 records and turn them over to prosecutors so people can be prosecuted, or
17 not prosecuted?
18 A. May I explain?
19 Q. Sure.
20 A. When the investigator was questioning me, he told me where the
21 book was and where I could check it.
22 Q. The OTP investigator? The Office of the Prosecutor investigator,
24 A. Yes. Should I say what his name is.
25 Q. It's okay. Do you think he knew where this document was?
1 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may be --
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may be of some assistance, there might have
4 been, I'm told, a mistranslation in the gentleman's previous answer. So
5 if Mr. McCloskey could re-ask the question. That's what I'm told by my
6 assistant who is fluent in B/C/S.
7 JUDGE LIU: Which question? You have to identify it.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: The one preceding that, as far as who told whom
9 where this logbook was located.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Maybe I can get --
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. The log -- you looked at this -- the logbook, the one that has got
14 combat activities written on it prior to seeing Mr. -- I believe it was
15 Mr. Ruez of the Office of the Prosecutor. Correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you told -- did you -- as you've said, you didn't bring a copy
18 of that with you to the interview, did you?
19 A. I did not.
20 Q. Did Mr. Ruez -- do you recall Mr. Ruez saying something to you
21 about this logbook?
22 A. Yes. He did say something to me. Can I tell you what it was?
23 Q. Sure.
24 A. He asked me where this book was, where I found it. And finally,
25 he said that he would look for the book and that he didn't want this book
1 to be destroyed if there was a flood or a fire or something like that.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
5 At this stage are there any documents to tender? Mr. Karnavas?
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour, we're tendering exhibit D124.
7 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, if you are going to tender this
10 document into evidence, we need some translations. Although you have used
11 this document in the proceedings and some words have already been
12 translated, at least we need a line indicating the -- what it means.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. So I will provide that,
14 sir. It could be --
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, maybe only for this witness, number 26.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: As well as the front page of this document, if you
19 MR. KARNAVAS: You mean the front page of the book itself?
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, sure. So that we know where those contents come
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. Very well.
23 JUDGE LIU: So this document, D124, is admitted into evidence,
24 pending the translation and front page, which will be submitted by the
25 Defence counsel.
1 And are there any documents for the Prosecution to tender?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Sorry. If there's more to
3 this logbook, I assume Mr. Karnavas may have just had one page. But I
4 think for the same reason that the front it would be a good idea to have
5 copies of the entire book as well, if that's possible.
6 And -- now, I've got a logbook as well as a couple of documents.
7 And these documents and logbook are a little -- slightly different than
8 the -- some of the other collections we have. And I think a proper
9 foundation of them -- I can either provide a declaration of an
10 investigator so you can see where they came from and when, or I can tell
11 the Court as an officer of the court. But I think you should probably
12 have a little more information before they come in. But I would be
13 tentatively offering them now with a follow-up giving you information,
14 which I think is appropriate.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, can you indicate at this stage what are those
16 documents that you are going to tender, just for the sake of the record.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good point. The -- a copy of the logbook covering
18 the dates of the police station, and the two bulletins, one that was dated
19 12 July and one that was dated 14 July.
20 JUDGE LIU: I guess that is document P847, 848, and 849.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's exactly right, as Ms. Stewart had in
22 the outline.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
24 Can I hear the initial response from Mr. Karnavas.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the initial response, Your Honour, is that we
1 have no foundation, per se. We don't know where these documents came
2 from. Obviously with respect to the bulletins, I suspect Mr. McCloskey
3 wishes to tender them for the truth of the matter asserted in those
4 particular documents, and I do have some problems with that. Having said
5 all of that, the Prosecutor has indicated that he will be tendering these
6 documents subject to connection, that down the road he will be
7 connecting -- he will be laying the foundation or predicate for these
8 documents to come in. Assuming that he will do that, I don't have a
9 problem. So subject to connection, I don't have a problem to them coming
10 in. But right now with what little we have, there -- I cannot object -- I
11 cannot agree to have them come in without any further foundation.
12 So -- but if I understood Mr. McCloskey correctly, he indicated that he
13 would be providing us with some additional information. So in light of
14 that, I think that they should not be admitted at this point in time until
15 he connects them, unless, you know, we accept them subject to connection.
16 If they don't connect, if they don't bring the foundation, then I would
17 have the opportunity to make the request that the documents or these
18 exhibits be disallowed from the collection of admitted evidence.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage we'll not admit these three
20 documents into the evidence, pending the submission by the Prosecution for
21 any foundations. But generally speaking, we believe that these three
22 documents are suitable for admission. But to be cautious we'll wait for a
23 while until a later stage. It is so decided.
24 Well, witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
25 your evidence. When the court is adjourned, the usher will show you out
1 of the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.
2 The hearing is adjourned, and we'll resume tomorrow morning 9.00
3 in Courtroom II.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
5 at 1.39 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
6 the 27th day of April, 2004,
7 at 9.00 a.m.