Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8238

1 Tuesday, 27 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Mr. Karnavas, are you ready for the next witness?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I am, Your Honour. Good morning, Mr. President,

11 Your Honours.

12 JUDGE LIU: And are there any protective measures?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. We will be asking face

14 distortion and just a pseudonym for this particular witness.

15 JUDGE LIU: I see.

16 Any objections? Ms. Issa?

17 MS. ISSA: None, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Your request is granted. Since we are in

19 this small courtroom, so there won't be any visitors in the public

20 gallery. So we'll have the face distortion, and we do not put the shade

21 around this witness. Is that all right?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: That's fine with me, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

Page 8239

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

2 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

8 Mr. Karnavas.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

10 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

11 Q. Good morning, sir.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. If I could please show you what has been marked as Exhibit D125

14 for identification purposes. Please look at it and see if that is your

15 name. Is that your name, sir?

16 A. Yes, it is my name.

17 Q. Thank you, sir.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could go into private session so we can

19 discuss the gentleman's background, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8240












12 Pages 8240 to 8245 redacted, private session














Page 8246

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in open session.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Now, do you recall about what day that order came? Assuming that

17 Srebrenica fell on the 11th and people were being evacuated as of the 12th

18 of July, using that as a framework, could you tell us, if you recall, what

19 day you received that order?

20 A. The day before.

21 Q. How long did it take you to muster up and report to Bratunac?

22 A. About two or three hours.

23 Q. And so do you have a recollection as to what time you got into

24 Bratunac?

25 A. Well, not precisely, but sometime in the afternoon.

Page 8247

1 Q. All right. Now, if Bratunac -- I mean, if Srebrenica fell on the

2 11th, what day would you have gotten into Bratunac, to your recollection?

3 A. The 10th.

4 Q. All right. And when you got to Bratunac, were you able to meet

5 with Borovcanin?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall where it was that you met him?

8 A. I think it was near the police station.

9 Q. At that time, was the company given any particular orders?

10 A. Not at that moment; a little later on.

11 Q. Were you told how long you would be there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you told where you would be staying overnight, in the event

14 you stayed overnight?

15 A. Nothing. They didn't tell us any of that.

16 Q. Were you ever asked to go to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever go to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. Were you ever introduced to any of the officers from the

21 Bratunac Brigade?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were you ever told whether you would be receiving orders from the

24 Bratunac Brigade?

25 A. Not to me they didn't.

Page 8248

1 Q. All right. Now, if you recall, what was the first order that the

2 1st Company received from Mr. Borovcanin?

3 A. The first order was that I should get up close to Zuti Most, I

4 think it was called, that I should take shelter there and wait for further

5 orders.

6 Q. And did you do that?

7 A. Yes, I did, towards evening.

8 Q. All right. How did you get to the Zuti Most, if you recall? If

9 you don't recall, that's okay, just tell us.

10 A. I think I went on foot.

11 Q. All right. And when you got there do you recall about what time

12 it was?

13 A. It was already getting dark.

14 Q. Now, did you do -- did you have any -- other than your order to go

15 there, were you instructed to engage in any other activities at that point

16 in time?

17 A. No, nothing.

18 Q. Do you recall whether your company engaged in any activities at

19 that point, when you got there?

20 A. No, it didn't. The men were just sitting around in a ditch by the

21 road and resting.

22 Q. Would you please tell us approximately how long you were in that

23 location.

24 A. I stayed there the whole night.

25 Q. And do you recall whether there was any action or any engagement

Page 8249

1 with anybody during that night?

2 A. Not there, but I did hear detonations coming from the direction of

3 Srebrenica and the hills up there.

4 Q. Okay. So you could hear some action, but your men -- you and the

5 men were not engaged. Correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Now, the next day, if you recall, what did you do?

8 A. On the next day I think the sun was already up. We set out in the

9 direction of Potocari.

10 Q. Okay. And how far did you get?

11 A. I didn't understand your question.

12 Q. Did you go all the way to Potocari?

13 A. Yes. We went to Potocari, but not all in one go. We kept coming

14 back to our starting position; I don't know why. I don't know what was

15 going on there.

16 Q. All right. Do you recall receiving any orders to go to Potocari,

17 and if so, by whom?

18 A. I think Mr. Borovcanin ordered us to set out toward Potocari along

19 that road.

20 Q. Did -- was this communicated in person, or was it communicated by

21 some other means?

22 A. Personally.

23 Q. All right. And what happened after that, do you know? Could you

24 please tell us. You said you were going towards Potocari and coming back,

25 but could you tell us what eventually happened on that day, if you recall.

Page 8250

1 A. I don't remember. There were already some people there before me,

2 army, police, I don't know.

3 Q. All right. Now, is this the same day, just so we understand, is

4 this the same day when the evacuation takes place?

5 A. I think it was.

6 Q. All right. So then we're talking about the 12th and not the 11th.

7 When you get to Potocari, do you recall about what time it would have

8 been?

9 A. I can't be precise.

10 Q. Could you tell us what you were able to observe.

11 A. I saw a large number of women, children, elderly all gathered

12 around the UNPROFOR base.

13 Q. Do we -- do you recall what your specific orders were at that

14 point in time?

15 A. I understood that we were supposed to stand in front of those

16 people and provide security for them.

17 Q. All right and why did they need security if the DutchBat were

18 there?

19 A. I don't know. The DutchBat was to the left, to the side. And

20 there was some sort of soldiers in front. I don't know who they were.

21 Q. All right. I take it you were not able to recognise them, even by

22 their insignia?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. How long did you stay in Potocari?

25 A. Not long. I don't know how long it was exactly. We sat to one

Page 8251

1 side. There was some houses nearby. And as there was already a certain

2 number of soldiers or policemen standing in front of those people, we

3 stood to one side, to the right. In fact, we sat down next to those

4 houses.

5 Q. All right. And did you receive any orders eventually while you

6 were there?

7 A. Yes. Soon I think General Ratko Mladic arrived with an escort and

8 then Ljubisa Borovcanin came. I also saw Dusko Jevic from the special

9 police. And it was then that I received an order that was transmitted to

10 me by Ljubisa Borovcanin in person, that I should immediately return in

11 the direction of Bratunac. I saw from a distance that he was having a

12 vehement discussion with General Mladic.

13 Q. Okay. Let me stop you here. First of all, how close were you to

14 General Mladic when he showed up?

15 A. About 150 or 200 metres. I can't be very precise.

16 Q. Were you able to hear him?

17 A. As soon as he arrived in front of that mass of people, he

18 addressed them and he told them that he was General Ratko Mladic, that

19 they shouldn't be afraid, something to that effect, that they would be

20 allowed to travel, that they should not be afraid of anything, that nobody

21 would hurt them, something to that effect. He said this in a very loud

22 voice so that I could hear it, too, even though I was so far away.

23 Q. All right. And up until this time, you still had not received any

24 particular orders while you were in Potocari?

25 A. No, no.

Page 8252

1 Q. All right. Do you recall if there were any buses there at that

2 point in time when you were there?

3 A. I don't think so.

4 Q. Okay. Now, you said that Mr. Borovcanin at some point in time

5 gave you some orders. Could you please tell us to the best of your

6 recollection what those orders were and what the exchange was between you

7 and Mr. Borovcanin, the conversation.

8 A. He told me that General Mladic had ordered him to have police

9 forces leave Potocari immediately, that they should go to Bratunac and

10 then Zvornik, because most of the Muslim combatants had broken through the

11 line and were moving in the direction of Zvornik, that they had set some

12 vehicles on fire along the way, something like that. That these forces

13 should be prevented from entering Zvornik.

14 Q. All right. Now, this is what Mr. Borovcanin told you?

15 A. Yes, that's what he told me at that point in time.

16 Q. Okay. Did he tell you about his exchange with Mladic, with

17 General Mladic?

18 A. I think there were certain problems between the two of them, that

19 General Mladic literally drove him away from that place, saying: "What is

20 the police doing here? Why don't they go where there are problems?"

21 Q. All right. Now, after Mr. Borovcanin gave you -- well, let me

22 back up. Did Mr. Borovcanin give you any specific orders of where to go

23 from there and to do?

24 A. We went off in the direction of Bratunac, and there we waited for

25 new instructions.

Page 8253

1 Q. Do you recall -- when you had left Potocari towards Bratunac, had

2 the buses arrived by then, if you recall?

3 A. I think the first buses had started arriving when I got to

4 Bratunac.

5 Q. All right. Now, when you got to Bratunac, for how -- where did

6 you go to wait for your next set of instructions?

7 A. We were near the police station.

8 Q. And about how long were you there before you received

9 instructions?

10 A. I don't remember precisely.

11 Q. Well, do you remember what instructions you eventually received?

12 A. Yes. Ljubisa Borovcanin arrived and said that we should go

13 towards Zvornik, because communication had been cut off at a certain point

14 and that it was necessary to ensure the normal flow of traffic because

15 soon the buses would start moving, which were to transport those people

16 gathered there.

17 Q. All right. Well, towards Zvornik, that's a pretty vague

18 description. Did he tell you any particular area where you had to situate

19 yourself at?

20 A. I don't remember precisely, but I do know he said: "Go in the

21 direction of Konjevic Polje and there you'll see, there are some soldiers

22 and policemen along the road." We were to link up with them and stay

23 there in order to secure that communication.

24 Q. Okay. Did he ever tell you to whom -- whether you had to report

25 to anybody once you got there?

Page 8254

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. Well -- and I take it that eventually you and the others went to

3 that area.

4 A. We set off in the direction of Konjevic Polje, and when we got

5 close to a place which I think is called Sandici along the road we saw

6 people lying down behind little shelters, because there was shooting from

7 the direction of Bratunac toward Konjevic Polje, along the left side of

8 the road, shooting from infantry weapons, all the time.

9 Q. All right. And so where did you eventually end up at?

10 A. I deployed my unit near a large house in Sandici. There was a

11 downwards slope. I know that you go down from a hill into a valley, and

12 there we took shelter behind sheltering screens along the road.

13 Q. Is there any particular reason why you chose that location?

14 A. Up to that large house, there were already policemen and soldiers

15 lined up. And in that area, there was a lot of firing from infantry

16 weapons, from the hilltops on the left.

17 Q. All right. Well, when you got there, since you had to sort of

18 link up, did you meet with anybody to introduce yourself and the rest of

19 the men that were there with you so at least they would know who their

20 neighbor was?

21 A. I saw that members of the special brigade of the police were there

22 already. We linked up -- or rather, we simply got in connection with the

23 last people in that line.

24 Q. Okay. And which special brigade are we talking about?

25 A. The Sekovic platoon of the special brigade of the police.

Page 8255

1 Q. Now, did you know who was commanding them at the time, at that

2 moment, at that location, on that day?

3 A. I didn't see the man nor do I know him, but I heard from those

4 people. I don't even know his name. This is the man they called "the

5 Officer," that was his nickname.

6 Q. Could you please tell us about what time of day it would have been

7 when you got to that location by Sandici?

8 A. I think it was towards evening.

9 Q. All right. And is that because you are using the sunlight as a

10 basis of determining what time it was, or did you have some other means,

11 like looking at a watch?

12 A. No, no, I didn't have a watch.

13 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us what was going on when

14 you arrived there. What was it like?

15 A. As I said, there was a constant exchange of fire on both sides.

16 Q. Well -- and what were you and the men doing of the 1st Company?

17 A. We lay there behind those barriers.

18 Q. All right. Did you go into the terrain to try to search for and

19 capture or kill the enemy forces that were firing upon you?

20 A. No. It was very difficult to raise your head behind those

21 barriers or shelters.

22 Q. How long were you at that location?

23 A. We stayed there the whole night.

24 Q. And what about the next day? Now we're talking the 13th of July.

25 Do you recall what happened on that day?

Page 8256

1 A. Just before dawn, day was beginning to break. There was again a

2 large attack. One policeman was killed and three were severely wounded.

3 Q. Okay. And were they your men, the men that were in that --

4 A. They were members of my company.

5 Q. Okay. Let me show you what has been marked as D126 for

6 identification purposes. If we could look at this.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: And perhaps, Your Honour, we could go into a

8 private session, since we'll be discussing some names.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8257












12 Page 8257 redacted, private session














Page 8258

1 [Open session]


3 Q. Once the -- one of the men was killed, do you recall what you did

4 after this incident?

5 A. I think we organised for them to be transported and given

6 assistance towards Bratunac.

7 Q. All right. Did you remain there or did you go anywhere as a

8 result of this incident?

9 A. When it got light I went toward Bratunac to visit the family of

10 the policeman who had been killed.

11 Q. All right. And how long did you stay in Bratunac?

12 A. I don't remember exactly, but it was two or three hours, something

13 like that.

14 Q. And then from there -- once you were in Bratunac, did you make any

15 reporting to anybody? Did you have to report to and give an accounting as

16 to what had happened and what was going on in the field?

17 A. No, I don't think so.

18 Q. All right. After Bratunac, what did you do?

19 A. I went back to the spot.

20 Q. So I take it you had not moved from the spot that you had been

21 located from -- that you and the other men had stationed yourselves the

22 previous day?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. All right. Do you have any idea about what time it would have

25 been when you returned to where the other men were?

Page 8259

1 A. I don't know precisely.

2 Q. All right. Could you please tell us when you got there what was

3 happening around that area.

4 A. I saw that people were starting coming out of the woods on the

5 left-hand side of the road from the hills, and they were crossing the

6 road. There was already a group of some 10 or 15 men there.

7 Q. All right. Now, you say the left side of the road. So just

8 so -- some of us haven't been there; hopefully we'll go there. But just

9 so I'm clear, if you're heading towards Konjevic Polje, the left

10 side -- you're talking about the left side of the road, if you are facing

11 in that direction or towards Zvornik. Correct? So Bratunac would be

12 behind you, Konjevic Polje is in front of you, and you're talking about

13 that left side of the road?

14 A. Yes, yes. When you're moving from the direction of Bratunac.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, was there still -- was there fighting

16 still going on?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please describe to us what you were able to observe at

19 that point in time, when you were stationed there by Sandici.

20 A. Some people were coming out carrying others who were wounded,

21 others were yelling at them from the hills, even shooting at them. When

22 those people came out, they cursed Zulfo Tursunovic and his men who were

23 preventing them from coming out. The fighting would stop for a while,

24 there would be a lull, and then it would start again.

25 Q. All right. Were you fighting back? Were you shooting back?

Page 8260

1 A. Yes. The whole line.

2 Q. All right. Did you order to any of your men to shoot at anyone

3 who was surrendering?

4 A. No. People were coming down and those policemen were going there

5 and even helping the people get out of the stream, because there was a

6 flat piece of land there, low-lying land, and they were helping people get

7 out, even carrying them. Nobody was shooting at those people. If you

8 were there, you saw the slope on the left-hand side. And that's where

9 most of the shooting was coming from.

10 Q. All right. Now, do you recall when you were there capturing any

11 prisoners or getting a hold of people that were surrendering?

12 A. I'm not quite clear on your question.

13 Q. Did anyone surrender to you or to the men that were with you?

14 A. They were passing by the people. It wasn't just one place, it was

15 the house or several houses, three or four positions. So they would pass

16 by and go across the road and across the meadow and that's the route they

17 took.

18 Q. All right. But what I'm saying is did you come into possession of

19 anyone who was surrendering himself to hold on to?

20 A. No.

21 Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, people were surrendering,

22 were they not?

23 A. Yes, they were coming out.

24 Q. All right. And what was happening to those people?

25 A. They were going up to the meadow, which was behind our backs to

Page 8261

1 the left, above us. And they sat there on the grass.

2 Q. So basically that's just across the road, is it not, on the right

3 side?

4 A. About 100 to 150 metres from our positions.

5 Q. All right. The previous day, did anyone surrender, to your

6 recollection, the first day you got there?

7 A. I don't think so.

8 Q. All right. Now, who told -- if you know, who told those

9 individuals that were surrendering to go and stand or sit by the meadow?

10 A. I don't know. I thought they -- I think they just did it of their

11 own accord, or rather, all the people there said: Go up there and sit

12 down. The police, the soldiers.

13 Q. And they were being guarded by the police and the soldiers.

14 Correct?

15 A. They were in front of them.

16 Q. Okay. Now, while they were -- do you recall about how many ended

17 up in that area? How many men approximately surrendered themselves and

18 placed themselves in that area?

19 A. I couldn't really say.

20 Q. All right. While they were there, do you recall anyone coming

21 over there and speaking with these people?

22 A. I don't know who exactly and at what time, but at one point, at

23 that bend, General Mladic turned up with an escort of about ten soldiers

24 of some kind. He went up to some 50 people perhaps and told them to sit.

25 They got up. He said: "Sit. I'm General Ratko Mladic." And he was

Page 8262

1 speaking very loudly so I could hear him. And then they started clapping.

2 They clapped to him and said: "Long live Ratko Mladic."

3 And he said to them -- perhaps I'm not going to be very exact when

4 I quote. But the gist of it is: "The Muslim soldiers, at this point in

5 time, your families, your brothers, sisters, mothers, are passing by in

6 buses and going in the desired direction where they want to go and you'll

7 be doing the same. You'll be going away. You're going to be brought some

8 bread and water now, and you're going to leave this place and follow them,

9 except for those who have Serbian blood and civilian blood on their hands,

10 and they will be tried."

11 Q. All right.

12 A. They started clapping again. He went down to the road, and I

13 don't know whether he went to Konjevic Polje or what direction he took

14 after that.

15 Q. All right. Did the general by any chance stop to talk to you or

16 anyone else?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What happened to those men, if you know?

19 A. Some of them went off in the buses, and others went off on foot in

20 the direction of Bratunac.

21 Q. Do you know who ordered them to leave that location?

22 A. Believe me when I say I don't know. Some buses arrived, so some

23 went in the buses; others were escorted by the soldiers or policemen. And

24 they went off in the direction of Bratunac, some on foot and some in the

25 buses, as I've already said.

Page 8263

1 Q. All right. And those soldiers or policemen that were escorting

2 them, did you recognise them?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you ask them where they were from?

5 A. Well, this is how it was: It was a beehive. There were so many

6 people. People were inquisitive, so they came in to see what was

7 happening from Bratunac. Other would be passing by. There would be

8 comings and goings. They would see people they recognised, neighbours or

9 whoever. So it was a general commotion. And then suddenly the buses

10 turned up and they would go off with those people there. Now, what time

11 it was, I really can't say.

12 Q. All right. Did you at any point in time make any inquiries as to

13 where they were going and who was it that was taking them? On whose

14 orders were they being escorted away?

15 A. I didn't wonder about that, because I wasn't in charge of the

16 people up there. I assumed somebody knew what was to be done with them

17 from the command, the soldiers, and so on.

18 Q. Well, before getting there or while you were there, were you ever

19 given any specific instructions as to what you should do to anyone that

20 you had captured or surrendered?

21 A. I don't think anybody knew that when they were there. It was a

22 very confused state, and I think there was general surprise when the

23 people started coming up on to the road. Nobody knew what was actually

24 happening, that's how I understood it at least.

25 Q. Did you ever ask -- did you or the men that were there with you

Page 8264

1 ever call out asking the Muslims that were in the column to come down and

2 surrender?

3 A. Well, I did hear some young guys by the house up there, that they

4 used a megaphone, a loudspeaker, and were calling out to them: "Come down

5 towards the house," and so on.

6 Q. All right. And were these young guys, as you put it, by the house

7 up there, were they with you? Were they part of that group that you were

8 with?

9 A. No. I didn't know some of those people, and others I think

10 belonged to the special police brigade.

11 Q. All right.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm about to get into a segment that

13 may take a little while to describe, so if we could break five minutes

14 early.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think we'll resume at 20 minutes to 11.00.

16 The hearing is adjourned.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.10 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, please continue.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Now, sir, while you were situated in that area on the 13th of July

22 and these folks were surrendering themselves in that area by Sandici where

23 you were located, did you ever come across two young individuals?

24 A. Can you be more precise.

25 Q. Okay. Did you ever come across two young boys that were among the

Page 8265

1 crowd or they were coming down or surrendering themselves?

2 A. Yes. They weren't in the mass of people, in the crowd. These two

3 young boys had come from the grass, the long grass. It's difficult for me

4 to explain the area. They were very young boys.

5 Q. Okay. And could you please describe to us what happened to the

6 young boys.

7 A. I went up to them when they crossed the barrier. I asked them

8 where they were from and how they came to be there. They were crying.

9 Their clothes were all torn. They were dirty. And one of them said that

10 he had followed his father, but that his father had gone off somewhere and

11 he didn't know where his mother was either. At first, I didn't know what

12 to do with them. And the buses were going past at that point, carrying

13 the women, children, and the elderly men. And I turned to the first bus

14 that came up, I stopped it. And as it happened, I knew the driver who was

15 driving the bus. So I called out to the man -- or rather, I called out to

16 a man I knew from before while I was working at the traffic policeman. He

17 was a Bosniak, a Muslim, that is to say, who was sitting in front, the

18 co-driver's seat, in fact. He was sitting in the bus next to the driver.

19 I said hello to him and told him to move up a bit, to move to the back of

20 the bus and to take in the two children because I didn't know what to do

21 with them, who to hand them over to, who to entrust them to. So they got

22 on to the bus and sat there right next to the driver. I told the driver

23 to see what he can do -- could do and hand them over to somebody, whether

24 he -- to ask around whether anybody knew who the parents were and where

25 they were.

Page 8266

1 Q. All right. Could you please tell us why you told the individual

2 who was sitting up front to sit in the back of the bus.

3 A. Well, not right to the back, just to move from the front seat, to

4 make room for the children because the bus was packed with the passengers.

5 So I just said to him: "Move over. Go back a bit" - I know him well, so

6 I could say that to him - "and leave room for the children."

7 Q. All right.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could go into private session just for a few

9 moments, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8267

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]


Page 8268

1 Q. You gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecution on 14

2 October 2000. Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And this incident that we -- now is being verified by one of the

5 Prosecutor's own witnesses was not mentioned by you at the time. Correct?

6 A. I didn't remember at that point in time. The investigator asked

7 me whether I had seen anybody I knew, and I couldn't remember who I had

8 actually seen at that particular moment.

9 Q. All right. And I -- so that's the explanation as to why you

10 didn't tell this to Mr. Ruez when he asked you whether you had recognised

11 anyone on that road while you were there?

12 A. Yes, I just couldn't remember at the time.

13 Q. All right. Now, do you know what eventually happened to all those

14 men that were taken away from Sandici? Do you know what happened to them?

15 A. They got into the buses and went off in the direction of Bratunac.

16 Q. At the time, do you know -- at the time, did you know where they

17 were heading towards or what their final destination would be?

18 A. I just thought: Well, they're going to Bratunac. They got on to

19 the buses to be taken there. Because I heard General Mladic telling them

20 that they would be exchanged, or I don't know what, and taken to Kladanj

21 and Tuzla.

22 Q. All right. Had anyone at that point in time told you that perhaps

23 they were about to be executed?

24 A. No. It never entered my mind. Absolutely not.

25 Q. And incidentally, getting back to that bus incident where you put

Page 8269

1 the children on, the individual that you recognised sitting in the front

2 and you asked to step back, about how old was he at the time?

3 A. Not more than 50.

4 Q. All right. Did you recognise any other men or did you see -- did

5 you see, not recognise, but did you see any other men in the bus at that

6 time?

7 A. Yes, I did, several.

8 Q. Is there any reason why you did not ask that gentleman that you

9 knew as well as the other men to step out of the bus and join the rest of

10 those who had surrendered themselves in Sandici?

11 A. No. The people were coming by on foot and the others were already

12 sitting in the bus on their way to Kladanj and Tuzla.

13 Q. Had you at any point in time, sir, been given any instructions to

14 stop buses and to check to see whether there were men of military age, say

15 the range from 16 to 60, for you to take out and hold for --

16 A. No, and believe me, we didn't pay attention to the buses going by

17 either.

18 Q. All right. Now, when the men from Sandici left, did you keep an

19 eye on them to see where eventually they went to?

20 A. No, I didn't have occasion to do that.

21 Q. Sitting here today, do you know where they ended up?

22 A. I really can't say.

23 Q. Okay. Well, there was an incident in Kravica at the Kravica

24 agricultural warehouse. Correct?

25 A. Yes, that's what I heard.

Page 8270

1 Q. All right. Now, from where you were situated, where you and the

2 men were situated, could you see the warehouse?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And why is that?

5 A. We were in a depression, and then there was an elevation. The

6 road ascends to the top of the hill. And then you go in the direction of

7 Kravica. It's about 2 kilometres away.

8 Q. All right. Now, did -- after the men left, did there come a time

9 when you heard a significant portion of firing as if there was a gun

10 battle, fighting, going on?

11 A. I have to repeat. The whole time while we were there, there would

12 be a sudden lull and then there would be sporadic gunfire, both to the

13 right of us and to the left of us. So if it was quiet all the time, you

14 would be able to assess what side it was coming from. But as the

15 situation was, it was very difficult to say, to assess that the shooting

16 was coming from the left or from the right, for example.

17 Q. All right. So do you -- does anything stand out, though, in your

18 mind that sometime during that day there was significant gunfire coming

19 from a particular direction?

20 A. No, I couldn't really say.

21 Q. Could you please tell us when was it that you learned about the

22 incident at the Kravica agricultural warehouse.

23 A. An hour or two later, perhaps more. People began to talk.

24 Because people -- you must understand, people were coming and going all

25 the time, passing by that way. And they were saying that an incident had

Page 8271

1 taken place, that an officer was wounded, and I learnt that a policeman

2 was dragged forcibly into the hangar and strangled, and that a rifle that

3 he had in his hand was taken away, and that there was some shooting in

4 which this officer was wounded. So that's how I came to learn of that,

5 from the people that were passing by, they talked about it.

6 Q. Okay. I want to go step by step now. Now, Officer, we're not

7 talking about an officer, but someone with the nickname of "Officer."

8 Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This individual who was called "Officer," do you know his name?

11 A. No, I don't know to the present day.

12 Q. Okay. And I take it from your answer that you had never met him.

13 A. No, I never saw him. Perhaps I did see him, but I didn't know who

14 he was, that that was the man.

15 Q. Okay. Did you know or did you learn at some point in time with

16 which -- in which unit he was serving?

17 A. I heard that he was the commander or chief of that Sekovici

18 detachment, part of the special police brigade, the Sekovici Detachment.

19 Q. And to the best of your recollection, you did not meet with that

20 individual prior to this incident in Kravica?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. What about the police officer who was killed, did you know him?

23 A. No, I didn't. I don't know what the man's name was.

24 Q. Do you know what unit he was from?

25 A. I heard that he was a member of the special police.

Page 8272

1 Q. Special police of the special brigade that we're talking about?

2 A. Yes. The Sekovici Detachment.

3 Q. All right. Did you by any chance go to the Kravica agricultural

4 warehouse to take a look for yourself to see what had happened?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Is there a reason why you didn't go there, even out of curiosity?

7 A. No. I heard about this incident two or three hours after it

8 happened. I didn't feel any need to go up there.

9 Q. All right. After the men left from Sandici, what did you and the

10 other men that were with you doing? They left, they went to Sandici. And

11 from Sandici, they left for the Kravica warehouse. What did you and the

12 men that you were with, what did you do? Did you stay there? Did you

13 relocate yourselves?

14 A. No, no. We stayed there until dusk, because people were still

15 coming out of those woods up there on the left-hand side.

16 Q. All right. Well, if they were still coming out of the woods, did

17 you or the other men that you were with come across any of those men who

18 were surrendering?

19 A. They went out on to the field, gathered there, and at dusk buses

20 were coming, some from one direction, others from another. I have no idea

21 who they were transporting and where. And they got on to one of those

22 buses and went off to Bratunac. It was already getting dark, and that's

23 where I finished up on that part.

24 Q. Had you been given any particular orders as to what to do with any

25 of those men? We're talking about now the second shift?

Page 8273

1 A. No. No, nothing. They just got on to the bus and left.

2 Q. Do you know who ordered those buses to come there to pick up these

3 men?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Do you know who was operating the buses?

6 A. I don't know that either.

7 Q. Do you know whether those buses had soldiers on them or military

8 police, or police? MUP?

9 A. You mean as an escort?

10 Q. Right. As an escort or as security.

11 A. I couldn't say who was inside.

12 Q. On that particular day, the 13th of July, did you by any chance

13 see Mr. Borovcanin?

14 A. I think I did see him at one point.

15 Q. Okay. Did he -- do you recall now, do you recall whether you and

16 the men received any particular orders from Mr. Borovcanin?

17 A. Nothing. He said when this is finished, he was referring to the

18 escort of the buses, we were free to leave.

19 Q. All right. Did you see anyone from the 2nd Company? You were

20 with the 1st, right? Now I'm talking about the 2nd Company.

21 A. It's hard to say.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. People were passing by, coming and going all the time.

24 Q. Do you know whether the 2nd Company was assigned to any tasks in

25 that area when you were there?

Page 8274

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Did you know at that time who the commander was of the

3 2nd Company?

4 A. Yes, I know.

5 Q. And who was the commander?

6 A. Slavoljub Mladjenovic.

7 Q. Did you know him?

8 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I knew him. He was the komandir of the police

9 station in Bratunac.

10 Q. Did you see him there, during that period?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 Q. Now, do you know a gentleman by the name of Stupar?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. And could you please tell us who he is.

15 A. If you're referring to Milos Stupar, he was a member of the

16 special police brigade, the Sekovici detachment.

17 Q. Did you see him there on that particular day, July 13th?

18 A. No, I didn't see him anywhere. I didn't see him.

19 Q. Okay. But you knew him. If you saw him, you would know -- you

20 would recognise him?

21 A. Certainly, yes.

22 Q. All right. Now, how long did you stay at that location? You told

23 us that you got there sometime on the afternoon of July 12th. You were

24 there on the 13th. How long were you at that location?

25 A. I was there in Sandici the whole time.

Page 8275

1 Q. Okay. But at what point or what day did you leave Sandici?

2 A. It was the second day.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Before dusk.

5 Q. Okay. That's the 13th then?

6 A. Probably, yes.

7 Q. All right. Could you please tell us where you went, where you and

8 the other men went.

9 A. Part of the unit had left previously to Bratunac. The members of

10 the Bratunac station had gone to that young man's funeral, as did some

11 other people who knew that family. And some had gone to Zvornik escorting

12 the young men from Zvornik who had been wounded. It seems that they had

13 first gone to Bratunac where they were given first aid, and then they were

14 transported by car to Zvornik, to the hospital there. While the rest of

15 the unit left the area in the evening. Something like that.

16 Q. All right. Could you please tell us who gave you the orders to

17 leave that area?

18 A. I think it was Dragomir Vasic. I don't remember exactly, but I

19 think it was him.

20 Q. All right. And did you recall what the orders were, what his

21 exact orders were, if you recall?

22 A. I don't recall.

23 Q. Now, if you could help us out here a little bit. You indicated

24 that at -- initially when you were told to go to Bratunac, Mr. Vasic had

25 directed the unit, the company, to go and report to Borovcanin. And so

Page 8276

1 the company is under the subordination or resubordinated to Borovcanin.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now -- so at that point in time, I take it your commander is

5 Borovcanin, your immediate commander?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us: Where does Vasic fit in? What

8 does he hit into this equation now, now that you have been resubordinated?

9 Because it would appear, at least to some of us, that you might have two

10 commanders?

11 A. It's hard to explain. Mr. Borovcanin at that time was the

12 commander of all the police units there as a member of the special police

13 brigade; while Mr. Vasic, as the chief of the centre, had other powers on

14 the territory of the centre in which he was employed. I think at that

15 time, my chief was Mr. Borovcanin; that's at least how I understood

16 things.

17 Q. All right. Well, then help us out here a little bit. If your

18 chief was Mr. Borovcanin, then how could Vasic then give you an order to

19 leave that location and go someplace else?

20 A. Probably they had agreed among themselves, the two of them.

21 Q. All right. You don't know, in other words, the exact -- what

22 transpired between those two?

23 A. No, I don't, I don't know.

24 Q. All right. So what did you do?

25 A. I went with those lads to Milici.

Page 8277

1 Q. Okay. Now, once you got there, did you receive any other orders?

2 A. Not that evening, no.

3 Q. What about the next day?

4 A. Yes. On the next day we were immediately called upon to go to

5 Zvornik and to report to the centre. And there we would get new orders.

6 Q. All right. And when you say "the centre," that would be where

7 Mr. Vasic is located?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Vasic also had a deputy, did he not?

10 A. Yes. It was Mr. Mane Djuric at the time.

11 Q. Okay. Do you recall to whom you reported when you went to the

12 centre in Zvornik, if you recall?

13 A. I can't be precise.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. I can't be precise.

16 Q. Would it have been one of those two or could there have been

17 somebody else as well?

18 A. I couldn't say.

19 Q. And I didn't ask you this question before, but the deputy of the

20 centre, Mane Djuric, do you know whether you saw him in Bratunac or

21 Potocari or on the road when you were there?

22 A. I didn't see him at all during those days.

23 Q. All right. Could you please tell us, if you recall, what orders

24 you received from the centre, and this now would be, if our timing, if

25 your recollection of the chronology is correct, this would be July 14,

Page 8278

1 1995. What orders did you receive from the centre?

2 A. As far as I can remember the chronological order of things, we got

3 an order that we should go off in the direction of Baljkovica.

4 Q. And where is Baljkovica?

5 A. I couldn't tell you precisely, but from Zvornik we were to go

6 there to protect the line facing Tuzla. The army was holding it, because

7 part of the forces -- they were mentioning the number of 15.000 who had

8 crossed over to Crni Vrh and set out towards Baljkovica, so that they

9 wouldn't come up from the back and attack those forces. My unit and

10 several other units of the military police and the army - I don't know all

11 the units that were there - were to prevent them attacking from behind,

12 from the back of those people holding the line.

13 Q. All right. And did you go there?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Could you please tell us how long you were there.

16 A. We stayed there the whole night. The fighting went on all night

17 and the following day until -- I don't know what time it was. And then

18 some sort of agreement was reached, and those people passed through.

19 Q. All right. Were you at any point in time given any orders to

20 participate in any executions of any prisoners that might have been taken

21 in that area or from other areas?

22 A. No. No. Nobody ever ordered me to do anything like that.

23 Q. Now, once there was this agreement for some of those -- for part

24 of the column or the column to go through towards Tuzla, what did you do?

25 Did you stay there or were you given other orders?

Page 8279

1 A. I stayed there.

2 Q. For how many days?

3 A. One day -- that day.

4 Q. Now, we know that there was some heavy fighting there. Did you

5 lose any men over there? Did the company lose any men over there?

6 A. Yes. One was seriously wounded and one policeman was killed.

7 Q. And I take it as we saw with the incident that happened on the

8 early hours of the 13th of July, there would be records with respect to

9 that death and that injury? There would be some records somewhere from a

10 soldier of -- a member of a company losing his life and another one

11 getting injured?

12 A. Probably, yes.

13 Q. Okay. All right. Now, I want to show you a document what has

14 been previously marked for identification purposes, though I don't believe

15 it has been admitted into evidence, as P159.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: And we have some extra copies, Your Honour, just

17 one. Perhaps the Judges can share. We can put it on the ELMO, this

18 document. I am told that the document was admitted, so I want to correct

19 myself.

20 Q. Sir, have you seen this document before coming here today?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Well, did I show you this document last night when I met with you?

23 A. Last night, yes.

24 Q. But before last night, you did not see it?

25 A. No, no. Never before that.

Page 8280

1 Q. And last night did you have an opportunity to read the relevant

2 portions with respect to the company that you were involved in?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And at the last page of this document we see the name.

5 It's uncertain whether that is the actual signature of the individual.

6 But do you -- are you able to read that signature?

7 A. Ljubisa Borovcanin.

8 Q. Do you recognise that signature?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, in this document with respect to the company that you were

11 involved in, does this more or less accurately reflect the activities that

12 you were engaged in?

13 A. For the most part.

14 Q. Okay. And in this document on the second page, it talks about the

15 2nd Company being sent to Srebrenica to form the public security station.

16 Do you know whether that was actually ordered? Do you have any knowledge

17 of that, of what the 2nd Company was doing?

18 A. I heard about that later.

19 Q. All right. All right. So you cannot vouch for what the

20 2nd Company was doing, but as far as the 1st Company, to your

21 understanding --

22 A. I couldn't, no.

23 Q. But with respect to the particular company that you were engaged

24 in, it's your understanding that the activities listed here are more or

25 less as they occurred, to your recollection?

Page 8281

1 A. I would have to read it, but yes, I think that's it.

2 Q. Okay. All right. Now, I want to show you another document, what

3 has been introduced into evidence as P386. And it should be P386B. We

4 have A as in English, B as in B/C/S or Srpski. And we can put the English

5 one on the ELMO.

6 Now, have you seen this document before?

7 A. Only last night, never before last night.

8 Q. All right. And from looking at this document, it would appear

9 that it was generated by Mr. Kovac. Correct?

10 A. Probably.

11 Q. All right. Did you know Mr. Kovac?

12 A. Only from television.

13 Q. All right. But did you know his position?

14 A. He was the Minister of the Interior at the time.

15 Q. And of course MUP falls under that ministry. Correct?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Now, I want you to look at the very last paragraph that's numbered

18 5. All right. And of course -- now, it -- under number 5 it says: "On

19 arrival at his destination, the unit commander is obliged to make contact

20 with the corps chief of staff, General Krstic."

21 So --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And if we look at number 3, it states that the commander who was

24 designated would be Ljubisa Borovcanin. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8282

1 Q. Do you know from your observations or from any hearsay, perhaps

2 from Mr. Borovcanin himself, whether Mr. Borovcanin made contact with

3 General Krstic, and if so what, if anything, was talked among themselves?

4 A. I don't know what they talked about. I think Mr. Borovcanin was

5 there in that headquarters, or whatever its name was, with those people.

6 Q. All right. So you don't know what, if anything, the two

7 discussed?

8 A. No, I don't know.

9 Q. All right. Finally, I failed to ask you: What were the means of

10 communications that you had available to you when you were out in the

11 field during those days? What means of communications were available to

12 you and --

13 A. Motorolas, G530.

14 Q. Okay. How many Motorolas were in the company, if you recall?

15 A. Three or four.

16 Q. And with that Motorola, with whom were you capable to communicate

17 with?

18 A. The komandirs of the squads, I think, within the unit. I can't

19 remember exactly, platoon komandirs.

20 Q. And we're talking MUP now?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did -- do you know whether you had any means of directly

23 communicating with the Bratunac Brigade duty officer or the

24 Bratunac Brigade headquarters?

25 A. No, never.

Page 8283

1 Q. Were you ever told that in the event you needed assistance or you

2 needed clarification or that you needed some orders or any materiel needs

3 to contact the Bratunac Brigade?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And if I understand your testimony correctly, to the best of your

6 knowledge during that period from the moment that you went to Bratunac to

7 the time that you left that area and went back and -- to where you had

8 come from, you had no contact with any members of the Bratunac Brigade?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. I guess I have a couple more. Back to the communication. Could

11 you communicate directly with Mr. Borovcanin through your Motorola?

12 A. I don't remember, but it's possible.

13 Q. What about with Mr. Vasic?

14 A. No, no. Never.

15 Q. What about with the Bratunac police station?

16 A. I think -- yes, I think we could. Not from every position, but I

17 think we could, yes.

18 Q. All right. Thank you very much, sir. I have no further

19 questions. Mr. Stojanovic may have some questions and the Prosecutor and

20 perhaps the Judges will as well. I would appreciate it if you could be as

21 frank and forthcoming in your answers to them as you were with me. Thank

22 you very much.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to ask?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, and

Page 8284

1 good morning to the witness. Our Defence team has no questions for this

2 witness in view of the testimony given here so far today.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

4 Ms. Issa, any cross-examination?

5 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. I do have some questions. Thank

6 you.

7 I'm just wondering if I can get the podium from Mr. Karnavas.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Issa:

9 Q. Good morning, sir. I'd like to start off with one of the last

10 points. You indicated, sir, that Mr. Borovcanin, you saw him in with

11 General Krstic at one point. And I believe what you said was that he was

12 somewhere -- he was in that place with the -- with those people.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE LIU: Well -- yes, Mr. Karnavas.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: I object. It mischaracterises the evidence. I

16 don't believe the gentleman ever said he saw Mr. Borovcanin with

17 General Krstic.

18 MS. ISSA: Perhaps that was my mistake, Your Honour. I'm just

19 going to start over.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MS. ISSA:

22 Q. Can you tell us, sir, where did you see Mr. Borovcanin.

23 A. I saw Mr. Borovcanin on one occasion in Sandici. He passed by and

24 stopped for a while and then left.

25 Q. Well, did you ever see Mr. Borovcanin in the Bratunac Brigade

Page 8285

1 headquarters?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What did you mean when you said you "saw him with some people"?

4 What people are you talking about?

5 A. You mean in Sandici?

6 Q. Well, you say that's the only place you saw him, so to whom --

7 A. He was standing around with some people there.

8 Q. And who are those people?

9 A. I don't know. Policemen I didn't know.

10 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Karnavas earlier showed you a report that was

11 prepared by Mr. Borovcanin which was Exhibit P159, which basically

12 outlines the activities --

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, what's the matter?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not sure it was actually prepared. That has

15 not been fully established. It's signed by Mr. Borovcanin, but we don't

16 know whether it was prepared by Mr. Borovcanin.

17 JUDGE LIU: But you used it anyway?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I did. It might well have been generated by

19 Mr. Borovcanin. There is a signature there. It hasn't been identified.

20 I'm not saying that they cannot use it, but just to say that it was

21 Mr. Borovcanin's work product, I don't know. Just a point of

22 clarification.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's a very, very minor issue since this

24 document has been admitted into the evidence. I hope you could refrain

25 from standing up on those trivial matters.

Page 8286

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Ms. Issa.

3 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, sir, did you yourself prepare a report outlining the

5 activities of your unit during that period?

6 A. No, I did not. I don't think so.

7 Q. Well, as commander, wouldn't you have to or shouldn't you have

8 prepared a report outlining your activities during that period?

9 A. No. It wasn't a regular police duty, this writing of reports.

10 There were wartime activities.

11 Q. Well, isn't writing reports normally a regular police duty, sir?

12 A. Yes, when you're doing regular police work.

13 Q. So you're making the distinction between writing reports for

14 regular police work versus combat activities. Is that what you're saying?

15 A. Well, I didn't write any reports.

16 Q. All right. Now, on the 12th of July, sir, weren't you clearing

17 minefields with members of the Bratunac Brigade on that day?

18 A. No. The members of the Bratunac Brigade did that.

19 Q. And your company wasn't involved in that?

20 A. We were standing close by. It's right by the bridge, and that's

21 where the separation line was.

22 Q. All right. Didn't you tell us earlier, sir, that the report that

23 was shown to you, signed by Mr. Borovcanin, was accurate?

24 A. I didn't read it in detail.

25 Q. All right. Well -- do you have a copy of that report with you,

Page 8287

1 sir?

2 MS. ISSA: If not, I'm going to ask Mr. Usher to provide a copy to

3 you. We can put the second page on the ELMO of the English translation.

4 Q. Perhaps we can look at the second page in the B/C/S version, sir,

5 paragraph 2. Now, it's dated 12 July, and I'll just read part of it

6 slowly.

7 "Between 5.00 and 6.30 hours, the pioneers of the

8 Bratunac Brigade, led by Captain Gavric cleared a passage through a

9 minefield or groups of mines towards Budok [phoen] or immediately around

10 the Zuti Most-Potocari road. Members of the 1st Company of the Zvornik

11 special police unit led by a pioneer from the Bratunac Brigade set off

12 through the cleared passages towards Potocari to create the conditions for

13 the introduction of hardware."

14 And then it goes on. And at the end of it, it says: "The first

15 task to take control of the UN checkpoint on Zuti Most was completed

16 successfully without any incidents."

17 Do you see that there, sir?

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, what's the problem?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: The problem is she's trying to discredit the

20 witness by saying that his unit was clearing mines. He indicated that the

21 Bratunac Brigade was clearing mines, that they were standing around. Now

22 it's clear from what she read that it comports with his testimony. So I

23 object to the means of trying to discredit the witness by misrepresenting

24 what's in the document.

25 JUDGE LIU: You haven't heard the question yet. She just read

Page 8288

1 certain portions of that document. I see no problem in that.

2 MS. ISSA: I have to say, Your Honour, I think Mr. Karnavas's

3 comments are totally inappropriate, given the circumstances. And I would

4 ask him to refrain from making comments of that nature in the future.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed, Ms. Issa.


7 Q. Now, sir, it appears from this paragraph that your unit was

8 involved in clearing passages towards Potocari. Is that right?

9 A. No, it's not right. We had no activities going on in that part.

10 All we were doing was standing around. We didn't have professionals for

11 that kind of thing. It was engineers from the combat brigade, or I don't

12 know who. They tried to remove the mines and I know that one man was

13 killed. But we had no movement at all, no activities.

14 Q. Why would it say then here, sir, that "members of the 1st Company

15 of the Zvornik special police unit led by a pioneer from the Bratunac

16 Brigade set off through the cleared passages towards Potocari to create

17 the conditions for the introduction of hardware?"

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: This is a mischaracterisation. It doesn't say that

21 they cleared the passage.

22 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --


24 MR. KARNAVAS: It says they --

25 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Issa just read that paragraph. I don't think the

Page 8289

1 reading has something wrong.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, she's posing a question based on her

3 interpretation of that passage. And furthermore --

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes --

5 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, the question was why. I don't think

6 that's an interpretation of the passage. I read the passage out as it is

7 stated. And I would ask Mr. Karnavas, perhaps, let us get through this

8 and object if there is a objectionable question.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if you look at her exact question, it

10 mischaracterises what is on the paper to the question herself. What I am

11 suggesting here is from reading this, it's very clear that they went

12 through the cleared passage, not that they were clearing the passage.

13 There is a big distinction. That's all I'm objecting to.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa, just keep the first part. Why would

15 it say it here. Okay.

16 MS. ISSA: Well, I think we know what we said at this point here,

17 Your Honour.

18 Q. Can you answer that question, sir: Why does that refer to the

19 1st Company of the Zvornik special police unit?

20 A. May I be allowed to clarify?

21 Q. Yes, please go ahead.

22 A. We were standing near Zuti Most, as it was called. That part of

23 the minefield is 100 metres to the right. Now, I don't know what kind of

24 hardware is mentioned or it was a wooded area. And somebody was killed

25 there. This man was killed there, but there was no movement on the part

Page 8290

1 of the police. And the man was taken away. He had been killed. And we

2 waited for daylight. And we took the asphalt road and went after those

3 people.

4 Q. But, sir, in order for you to go through that asphalt road after

5 the passage was cleared, it says here that you were led or your unit was

6 led by a pioneer from the Bratunac Brigade. Do you see that there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you actually had to have some contact with at least that member

9 of the Bratunac Brigade, did you not?

10 A. The man went in front of everybody else, him and two others, two

11 others whom I didn't know. I didn't know either of them or all three of

12 them. They tried to do away with the mines, but he was killed. That's as

13 far as I know.

14 Q. All right. Now, when you were at Zuti Most, sir, didn't you do

15 any reconnaissance of the enemy on the 11th of July?

16 A. No, there were no lines up there.

17 Q. Did you receive any intelligence of anything going on in the area?

18 A. No, nothing. I just heard strong explosions somewhere over there,

19 towards Srebrenica, detonations.

20 Q. Did you make any effort to find out what was going on?

21 A. No, I didn't have anybody to ask. We heard it a long way off. It

22 wasn't there near us, because there was the line of the army there. We

23 were behind their backs lying down in a ditch.

24 Q. Did you see any army troops there?

25 A. You mean at Zuti Most?

Page 8291

1 Q. Yes, in the area.

2 A. Yes, the line was there.

3 Q. Okay. And you said, sir, earlier that you saw Milos Stupar -- or

4 you didn't see Milos Stupar, but you know of Milos Stupar. Right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Isn't Milos Stupar the commander of the Sekovici detachment?

7 A. I don't think he was at that time. I don't know what was going on

8 in that special brigade, but he wasn't there at the time for sure -- at

9 least not in that area. Now, whether he was replaced by the man that was

10 nicknamed Oficir, I really can't say. But I didn't see him anywhere in

11 the area.

12 Q. Well, Mr. Borovcanin told the Office of the Prosecutor --

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. Objection.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. Borovcanin is not going to come in here to

16 testify because he is at large when he failed to turn himself in --

17 JUDGE LIU: You haven't heard the question yet.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: But it's what Mr. Borovcanin told the OTP. I have

19 no opportunity to cross-examine him who is now somewhere outside BiH. So

20 there lies the problem, Your Honour. And I think this problem came up

21 once before, and I believe it was with Mr. Butler.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, let's see what the question is, then we'll

23 decide whether this question is allowed or not.

24 You may proceed, Ms. Issa.

25 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

Page 8292

1 Q. Sir, Mr. Borovcanin told the OTP investigators that Milos Stupar

2 was the commander of the Sekovici detachment at that time. Do you have

3 anything to say about that?

4 A. No, I don't know anything about that. I really didn't see him

5 there.

6 Q. All right. And it would be fair to say, sir, that if anyone would

7 know, it would be Mr. Borovcanin, given that he was in charge of the

8 activities during that period?

9 A. Mr. Borovcanin was the commander of the entire police force.

10 Q. All right. Mr. Borovcanin also said that he found -- he did see

11 Mr. Stupar in the area at that time.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, my same objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't have an opportunity to cross-examine

15 Mr. Borovcanin. He failed to turn himself in when he was allowed by the

16 Prosecutor to turn himself in in light of his position rather than have

17 him arrested like he arrested Mr. Blagojevic and some of the others. So

18 I'm now under the -- I'm unable to at any point to confront Mr. Borovcanin

19 as to what he said. Now, I can vouch for the court that Mr. Stupar will

20 be here tomorrow or the next day testifying.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, the question is not whether you

22 have the opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Borovcanin. The question is

23 that your witness may or may not answer that question. Whatever he

24 answers we will accept. That's very easy. And during the

25 cross-examination, I believe that the party who is doing the

Page 8293

1 cross-examination could use whatever documents and whatever information

2 for the basis of their question. There is no doubt about it.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, the problem with that is: They took a

4 statement from someone who was about to be arrested. They let him go or

5 the person jumped. It doesn't matter. What matters is we don't have an

6 opportunity at this point in time to confront that individual with the

7 statement that he gave to OTP. That's part of the problem. And now

8 they're using this statement. We understand that hearsay comes in. But

9 this is not just mere hearsay. This is a total inability of the Defence

10 to cross-examine this individual, who is more than just a suspect. He is

11 indicted as I understand or was about to be indicted.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise for getting up, but speculating on

14 arrests of targets and whether they jumped or the Prosecution let people

15 go is really inappropriate, especially in front of a witness. And I -- on

16 this point, clearly the Trial Chamber has set the groundwork for what can

17 be asked in cross-examination. And this has been the groundwork that both

18 sides have been working under for the entire -- entirety of this trial.

19 In fact, there are documents of people that are actually in evidence that

20 we may never see. And those are -- that's our understanding of the rule

21 that you have set down, that's why this question is asked. It's a little

22 late in the day to be suggesting that the rule is otherwise. As long as

23 the questioner has good faith belief in the question. We are not

24 suggesting our questions are evidence.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll just -- I'll bring -- I'll search for the

Page 8294

1 portion of the transcript where McCloskey himself corrected Mr. Butler who

2 stood up to try to use Borovcanin as a basis for one of his answers and

3 was told not to do that. And if I'm wrong, I'll readily admit it. But my

4 recollection is that this was brought to Mr. McCloskey's attention and he

5 himself cautioned Mr. Butler not to mention anything he had learned from

6 Borovcanin.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, it is not proper to argue those

8 procedural matters in front of a witness. Here we just want to get the

9 testimony gone through. I believe your witness could have the ability to

10 answer that question, even if it's a hearsay question.

11 You may proceed, Ms. Issa.

12 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I just need to respond

14 briefly to the Mr. Butler comment because it's such a different matter.

15 And he is correct, at times with our expert witness I would ask him not to

16 refer to specific matters, such as this. Because he was an expert, his

17 opinion was something that we were relying on. It's completely different

18 than asking a witness a question. And so it -- this is apples and oranges

19 and I just wanted to point that out.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, I've already said that this is a

21 procedural matter. Procedural matters have nothing to do with the present

22 witness.

23 Ms. Issa, you may proceed with your question.

24 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Sir, Mr. Borovcanin told the Office of the Prosecutor

Page 8295

1 investigators that Milos Stupar was there and that he found you and

2 Mr. Stupar and asked you not to move from that position. Do you have any

3 comment to make about that?

4 A. In Sandici, you mean?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. I don't know what period that was, but yes, Ljubisa Borovcanin did

7 come. I said I'd seen him, but I don't know what day that was.

8 Q. Well, the point is, sir: That he also said that he saw Mr. Stupar

9 there.

10 A. I don't know about that. I didn't see him.

11 Q. All right.

12 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I am going to go into another area at this

13 point. I don't know if you wish to take the break now or you would like

14 me to continue for five more minutes.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, since you are changing the subject and since

16 there is tension between the parties, I think we should have a break.

17 We will resume at 25 past 12.00.

18 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, the hearing is adjourned.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

23 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Sir, I'd like to move to the Sandici meadow on the 13th of July.

25 Did you see members of the Bosnian Serb army in the Sandici meadow at that

Page 8296

1 time, sir?

2 A. Yes, I did, several.

3 Q. And what were they doing?

4 A. Nothing, standing around.

5 Q. All right. And when the men surrendered, what was the -- what

6 were the soldiers doing?

7 A. Nothing. They were standing around and the people were sitting on

8 the meadow.

9 Q. Weren't they, in fact, securing the people on the meadow?

10 A. The people were quiet. They were just sitting there quietly in

11 the meadow.

12 Q. And weren't these soldiers in fact securing them while they were

13 sitting there on the meadow, which might be part of the reason they were

14 sitting quietly there?

15 A. Probably that was their task.

16 Q. Okay. Did you see the army abuse Muslims the any way, sir?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you see young boys separated from the men on Sandici meadow?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You didn't see -- it wasn't -- you didn't hear the announcement

21 that boys that were born in 1980 or after to come out from the group and

22 were separated?

23 A. No, I didn't hear anything like that.

24 Q. And you didn't see any of the boys separated, removed, from the

25 group?

Page 8297

1 A. No.

2 Q. But you had two children, two young boys, that you put on a bus?

3 Isn't that what you told us about earlier?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And didn't those young boys come from the group?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Where did the young boys come from?

8 A. From the left-hand side. There was some high grass, long grass,

9 so they came through that long grass and turned up that way.

10 Q. And they came towards Sandici. Right?

11 A. They came out on to the road.

12 Q. Okay. And why did you take those boys and put them on a bus?

13 A. They were small boys. I didn't know what to do with them. They

14 didn't know where they were going, where their parents were. They didn't

15 know anything. I asked them where their parents were. One of the little

16 boys said: Maybe they're in the buses. He said he didn't know. They got

17 lost in the woods.

18 Q. You didn't see any older men that were separated, did you? The

19 men were left on Sandici meadow. Right?

20 A. No, there was no separation there, as far as I could see.

21 Q. Did any of the wounded men ask to go on the buses that were going

22 to Kladanj?

23 A. I wasn't near them. I didn't see anything.

24 Q. So you didn't see anything? You didn't see any of the

25 separations? You didn't see what happened to the wounded men? You didn't

Page 8298

1 see what happened to the boys?

2 A. No.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Right?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. Weren't the Muslims ordered at some point to lie down

6 on their stomachs and -- facing the ground and to say: "Long live

7 Serbia"?

8 A. I didn't see that.

9 Q. You didn't see that either?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you see dead bodies in the meadow?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You didn't see that either?

14 Did you hear Mladic tell the Muslims that if they had surrendered

15 earlier, that there wouldn't have been so many wounded?

16 A. I heard him talking, but I don't remember what he said, his words

17 and the details. I said what I had heard.

18 Q. So you only heard that other part that you told us about earlier?

19 A. I don't remember the details. I heard him speaking to them. It

20 might have gone on for some five minutes.

21 Q. Didn't he also tell them that they would be taken to Bratunac?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Okay. Can you tell us which direction did the buses come from

24 that took the men to Bratunac?

25 A. I can't say exactly, because some came from Konjevic Polje.

Page 8299

1 Coming back and going to Konjevic Polje there were a lot of comings and

2 goings. I can't really say.

3 Q. So you didn't see where they came from and loaded up the men and

4 subsequently went to Bratunac? You didn't see that direction that they

5 came from?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Who loaded up the men on to the buses that took them to Bratunac?

8 A. Those people over there who were standing at the top of a small

9 hill or bend.

10 Q. Who are those people?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Well, were they army? Were they police? Who are they?

13 A. I don't know exactly. I think there were a -- some of both.

14 Q. Okay. Didn't you tell the OTP investigators, sir, that the

15 soldiers and special police escorted the men to Bratunac? Do you remember

16 that?

17 A. Probably they did.

18 Q. Okay. And they also escorted the men to Kravica, the soldiers and

19 the police?

20 A. They took them all off in that direction.

21 Q. When you say "they took them all off in that direction," it was

22 the soldiers and the police that did that, that escorted the men in the

23 direction of Kravica?

24 A. Some of them went in the buses, and the others went on foot.

25 Q. And they -- whether they went in the buses or on foot, they were

Page 8300

1 escorted by the soldiers and the police. Right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Okay. Now, can you tell us, sir, when is it that you left the

4 Sandici meadow on 13 July?

5 A. At dusk, towards evening. I don't remember the time, but

6 thereabouts.

7 Q. And were there any Muslims left when you left in Sandici meadow?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you aware, sir, that 16 people were left behind were actually

10 killed by members of the Jahorina unit --

11 A. I don't know --

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I would like to know if she's going to be posing

15 these sorts of questions, especially the one with the 16 people. She can

16 tell the witness where she got this information, from whom and what is the

17 basis for this information, that 16 were left behind at Sandici meadow and

18 that they were then taken and executed.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll hear the answer from the witness first.

20 Witness.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about that. I

22 don't know anything about that.

23 MS. ISSA:

24 Q. All right. Did you see any UN white APC going up and down the

25 road calling out for people to surrender that day?

Page 8301

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. There was a tank and a Praga and other equipment on Sandici meadow

3 that day. Right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And who did they belong to, sir, that equipment, the Praga, the

6 tank?

7 A. I couldn't say. They were there that evening when we arrived, but

8 whether they were there on the next day I can't remember.

9 Q. How is it, sir, that the men went to -- or got to Sandici meadow?

10 Can you answer that? How is it the men got to Sandici meadow?

11 A. They were coming out next to that big house and crossing the road

12 and sitting down on that meadow.

13 Q. And who was directing them to come out?

14 A. They were standing there, policemen, soldiers, showing them the

15 way.

16 Q. So the policemen and the soldiers were directing the men to come

17 out from the hill and assemble them on the Sandici meadow. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, pointing to the place they were to go to.

20 Q. Okay. And who were the -- what units did the soldiers belong to?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. What units did the policemen belong to?

23 A. On one of the pictures that the investigator had, I saw quite a

24 few policemen whom I didn't know. I also saw others I did know. There

25 was some from the special brigade police. I don't know who the others

Page 8302

1 were, also policemen. This was another company, and I don't know what

2 sort of company it was.

3 Q. Do you know where the buses came from that ultimately picked up

4 the men, where they were brought from, how they came to be there?

5 A. I didn't understand your question fully. Could you please repeat

6 it.

7 Q. Who organised the buses to be brought to the meadow to pick up the

8 men?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Okay. Sir, you indicated that you learned about the shooting in

11 Kravica of a particular -- of one officer and of the wounding of the man

12 nicknamed "Officer" about a couple hours after the incident. Isn't that

13 what you told us before in the examination-in-chief?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, amidst this talk, did you hear that another gentleman was

16 also wounded, Milomir Stanojevic, who was a member of the Red Berets of

17 the Bratunac Brigade at Kravica?

18 A. I don't know about that. This is the first time I've heard of it.

19 Q. All right. Well, sir, I want to clarify one point. When you went

20 to Bratunac because you were telling us you wanted to check on one of your

21 officers that was killed. Do you remember telling us that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us where you went exactly when you went to Bratunac.

24 A. First I went to the police station, I think.

25 Q. Okay. And why did you go to the police station?

Page 8303

1 A. To organise the funeral, to see about the funeral, the family,

2 about where the body was to be kept, and so on.

3 Q. Okay. And did you go anywhere else?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So when you went to Bratunac, you just went to the police station

6 in Bratunac. Right? Isn't that what you just said?

7 A. Yes. I was at the police station.

8 Q. Who did you see there?

9 A. There were many soldiers and policemen. I don't know.

10 Q. You didn't recognise the soldiers at the police station?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Okay. When you went to Bratunac, did you see any men there on

13 buses in Bratunac?

14 A. Not in front of the police station, certainly not.

15 Q. All right. Well, did you see them anywhere else?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MS. ISSA: If I can just have the Court's indulgence for a moment.

19 I have no further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 Any re-direct?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I do. I just have a couple of questions to clear

23 up.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

Page 8304

1 Q. Sir, you were shown a document that was purportedly prepared by

2 Mr. Borovcanin that is Exhibit P159. And you were specifically pointed to

3 the word "led," that the unit was "led by a pioneer from the Bratunac

4 Brigade."

5 My question to you, sir, is: When you were there by the

6 Zuti Most, were you resubordinated or re-resubordinated to the

7 Bratunac Brigade pioneer group that was doing the demining?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you taking any orders from them?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. Were you part after the Bratunac Brigade when you were there?

12 Were you part of the Bratunac Brigade when you were at the Zuti Most

13 waiting there as they were clearing the mines?

14 A. No. I was part of the police force.

15 Q. All right. Now, the -- there were some questions with respect to

16 what happened in Sandici. Could you please tell us whether you spent any

17 amount of time with the men that were surrendering and they were going

18 across the road and sitting on the meadow.

19 A. I didn't go up to the meadow at all.

20 Q. Okay. Do you know who was in charge at the meadow of those -- you

21 said that there were soldiers and police. Do you know who was the

22 komandir, the person in charge, of that activity at the meadow?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 Q. Now, when you look at -- again, you haven't been to the terrain.

25 Hopefully -- I know the Defence will be requesting that the Trial Chamber

Page 8305

1 go to the scene to visit. But just -- if you could tell us, describe a

2 little bit where you're situated and where the meadow is located, so at

3 least we could try to picture it.

4 A. I was some 50 or 100 metres downhill from that house among my men.

5 The meadow was behind me about 100 or 150 metres away up the slope.

6 Q. All right. And could you please tell me: Were all your men

7 bunched together, or were you spread out? Where were the men located that

8 were in --

9 A. Behind those fences, there's a canal. That's where they were.

10 Q. Okay. Were they all bunched together or --

11 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MS. ISSA: Aside from the fact that it's a very leading question,

14 I think we're now going way beyond the confines of the cross-examination.

15 I don't see how any of this arises out of cross-examination. I'm

16 objecting to --

17 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may answer the question.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well --

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: If you have a question to this witness, put it

21 directly to this witness --

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm trying --

23 JUDGE LIU: Because this is the redirect examination. As a rule,

24 all your questions should be within the scope of the cross-examination.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I am well aware of the rule, and I

Page 8306

1 don't mean to be disputatious. However, if I point -- if I could point

2 out, the Prosecutor was trying to elicit information to suggest at closing

3 argument that this man is being less than candid, because how could he be

4 situated there with the men nearby and not hear and see the events

5 described --


7 MS. ISSA: It is improper for counsel to make these comments in

8 front of the witness, and he knows that.

9 JUDGE LIU: I believe so.

10 I ask you just to put your question directly to this witness if

11 that question is within the scope of the cross-examination. That's very

12 simple.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

14 Q. Could you please describe to us where your men were located and

15 where you were located in relation to the meadow, so at least we know

16 whether you had the ability to hear and see what was suggested, what was

17 going on, at that time.

18 A. I couldn't see any of that. I've just said. It was behind my

19 back. There were moments when we couldn't raise our heads because of the

20 shooting, we couldn't look up.

21 Q. All right. Now, when the children -- you were asked about the two

22 children. Did you pluck out those two children from the meadow, or did

23 you find them at another location?

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, this question has been asked and

25 answered.

Page 8307

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

2 JUDGE LIU: He's quite clear about that.


4 Q. My last question is: When you went to Bratunac, did you take a

5 drive around the town to see what was happening, or were you there on any

6 particular business that led you to the police station?

7 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I mean I think the witness has already

8 answered the question. I don't think this arises out of the scope of the

9 cross-examination --

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, he answered the first question -- well, he

11 answered the second part of the question but not the first one. I think

12 the main issue is that whether this witness drove around in Bratunac.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: That's correct, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: This question is allowed.


16 Q. Did you drive around Bratunac to see whether there were any men in

17 buses anywhere else, since you didn't see any in front of the police

18 station?

19 A. Believe me, I didn't want to drive around town. I went to the

20 home of the person who had been killed, and then I went to the police

21 station. His family wanted him to be buried in his uniform. And we had

22 to find a new uniform to dress his body in. I didn't drive around the

23 town. I didn't feel like doing that at all.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.

Page 8308

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Judge Vassylenko.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: You mentioned the fighting in Sandici on 13th

25 July, 1995, and also that soldiers took part in the fighting. Whom were

Page 8309

1 these soldiers subordinated to?

2 A. Believe me, I don't know. I don't know who they belonged to,

3 whether the Zvornik Brigade or the Bratunac Brigade, I don't know that.

4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Hvala. I have no more questions.

5 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 Ms. Issa?

9 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 At this stage, are there any documents to tender? Mr. Karnavas?

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. Just D126, the sheet with the

13 pseudonym.

14 JUDGE LIU: Would you please repeat the number.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: D126 -- maybe I have it wrong. I'm sorry. D125.

16 I'm sorry about that.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 I guess there's no objections?

19 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 This document is admitted into the evidence under seal.

22 Are there any documents on the part of the Prosecution that is to

23 be tendered?

24 MS. ISSA: No. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 8310

1 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague today

2 your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room. We wish you a

3 pleasant journey back home. You may go now.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, we still have about 45 minutes left for

7 the morning session. Do you have another witness waiting outside?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't, regrettably, because the other witness

9 came last night and I needed -- and he's the only -- he's the last witness

10 for this week because of some technical problems with passports.

11 Hopefully, that won't occur again, so I would anticipate that that

12 gentleman will only take tomorrow, probably about the same amount of time

13 regrettably. And I know it's eating into my time, we have one witness

14 left. But having said that, it will allow us now that Ms. Tomanovic is

15 back to finalise and fine-tune our revised amended 92 bis -- or 90 -- 65

16 ter motion, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We are expecting that filing because I found

18 that the 65 ter filings you made have some --

19 MR. KARNAVAS: We've already covered that, Your Honour. We've

20 covered that, and I'm going to rectify that, that's why I asked

21 Ms. Tomanovic to come back earlier so we can get that done as soon as

22 possible.

23 JUDGE LIU: For the future witnesses, I hope we could hear the

24 witnesses one after the other, so that the time at your disposal will be

25 made the best use of.

Page 8311

1 MR. KARNAVAS: That's my intention, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 And at this stage, are there any matters from the Prosecution?

4 Yes.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Just briefly on a

6 housekeeping matter but of some significance. Mr. Karnavas has mentioned

7 a couple of times about a site visit, and it's one of the areas where

8 Mr. Karnavas and I share similar views. I have not had a chance to speak

9 to Mr. Stojanovic about it. But if you would like, we can present to you

10 our reasons for that or -- in writing or orally, or we can enter into

11 discussions to see if we can get all three counsel on that. But if you

12 might be interested, I think it's something that at least Mr. Karnavas and

13 I both would support. As you can imagine, it takes a lot of logistics and

14 planning and -- so this basically the sooner the better, if you are

15 interested. And that can be begun.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Can I hear initially from Mr. Stojanovic their

17 views on that very issue.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We have not

19 discussed this topic about an on-site inspection, and I think we should

20 first talk about whether this is to be a reconstruction or an on-the-spot

21 investigation. As for our Defence, in view of the terrain this would

22 require more than one day. Since the municipalities of Bratunac and

23 Srebrenica and the events in Zvornik are more than 50 kilometres apart,

24 there is a physical distance of some 50 to 70 kilometres. So it would

25 require at least a few days. In principle, the position of our defendant

Page 8312

1 and of this Defence team, Your Honours, may view the places where the

2 executions took place and the physical disposition of the offices in the

3 Zvornik Brigade headquarters, which we tried to represent through a model

4 in order to show where the duty officer's place of work was and where the

5 communications system was located and how these communications functioned.

6 Over the next few days - and we can do this today - we will meet with the

7 Prosecution and Mr. Blagojevic's Defence team in order to agree on this

8 proposal. And as this is my native area, I will be pleased to play the

9 host to Your Honours there.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much.

11 Well, since the parties raised this issue, I hope the parties will

12 file something in writing and list the reasons to bring the Bench there

13 for a site visit.

14 Well, I think that's all for today. The hearing is adjourned.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

16 at 1.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

17 the 28th day of April, 2004,

18 at 9.00 a.m.