Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9488

1 Wednesday, 19 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Good morning, Witness.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

12 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest yesterday?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excellent, thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, before we start I think I have to remind you of

15 something. We understand that you are eager to give your testimony in

16 this courtroom to help the Judges to understand what was happening in July

17 1995 in Srebrenica. But the proceeding in this courtroom is quite

18 different from where you come from. Generally speaking, the witness

19 should be led by the party who asks questions. In most of all occasions,

20 all those answers -- all those questions could be answered simply by

21 saying yes or no. If the counsel needs more information on certain

22 subjects, he could ask the follow-up questions. So I hope your answer to

23 each question could be as concise as possible.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

Page 9489

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

4 Honours.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Celanovic.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. We left off yesterday when you spoke to us about your meeting with

11 Colonel Beara. Do you recall that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, before we get into that event and what happened afterwards, I

14 just want to get some things out of the way. You were questioned by the

15 Prosecution, were you not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you were questioned, I believe the date was 10 December 2003.

18 A. I think so.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not getting a translation.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: All right.

22 Q. Now, when you were questioned by the Prosecution, were you

23 questioned as a witness or as a suspect?

24 A. When they came, they told me I would be interviewed as a suspect,

25 and then I was interviewed.

Page 9490

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may have a moment. I'm having

3 some problems. I can hear the translations through somebody else's, but

4 I'm having a problem.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please check it.


7 Q. Okay. And you understand that as you sit here today and as you're

8 testifying, you still have the status of suspect. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I take it that's making you a little nervous?

11 A. Yes, quite.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Shin.

13 MR. SHIN: Objection, Your Honour. That was leading.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, in this occasion, I don't think -- well, it is a

15 leading question but in this occasion I don't think it matters very much.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

17 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

19 Q. When you were questioned in Banja Luka as a suspect almost four

20 years after the Prosecution indicted Mr. Blagojevic, some two years after

21 he was arrested, were you informed as to the reasons why you were deemed a

22 suspect?

23 A. If you will allow me, I would like to make a correction. This was

24 not in Banja Luka but in Bratunac, in my office, where I was interviewed.

25 I was never told why I was considered a suspect. That is, at the

Page 9491

1 beginning I wasn't told. Later on, they mentioned Resid Sinanovic as the

2 person who is implied as a participant in the events in which I allegedly

3 participated as well.

4 Q. All right. We're going to go step by step. And in fact, you had

5 an opportunity to read the indictment by the Prosecution -- or one of them

6 at least, one -- not the latest one that they're proposing, but the one

7 before, 17 June 2003. Correct? You've looked at that indictment?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in fact, on paragraph 47.5 is where it's referenced -- and

10 I'll just read it for the record to make sure that we are on the same

11 point. It says: "At some time from 12 July through 1 November 1995, six

12 Bosnian Muslim men from Srebrenica were captured by MUP forces, turned

13 over to and interrogated by security personnel from the Bratunac Brigade

14 under the command and control of Vidoje Blagojevic and under the

15 directions of Momir Nikolic and thereafter summarily executed by unknown

16 persons."

17 And then it says: "One of these persons, Resid Sinanovic, was

18 captured by MUP soldiers from the Republika Srpska RS, turned over

19 personally to Momir Nikolic before being executed."

20 Do you recall reading that portion of the indictment?

21 A. No, not in this form.

22 Q. All right. But it's this -- is it not -- is it Resid Sinanovic or

23 the issue of the whereabouts of Resid Sinanovic that has -- that you've

24 been told is the reasons for you being a suspect?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9492

1 Q. All right. Now, did you question Resid Sinanovic in Bratunac

2 shortly after the fall of Srebrenica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you summarily execute him?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you execute anyone, as being suggested by the Prosecution?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. Now, before we go into what happened to him --

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. This -- it appears to be an intent to

12 inflame the witness. First of all in suggesting to him that he's nervous

13 because of what an investigator has a duty to tell him, and now he's

14 saying the Prosecution suggested he executed someone. There's no

15 suggestion in that. It's part of the interrogation process of people that

16 were executed. This is well-known. And to say that to this man is really

17 unconscionable. For him to go back and suggest that we say he's an

18 executioner; that's just not true.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think we remind you many times,

20 do not mention the Prosecution, or mention the Prosecution as little as

21 possible. In your question it is not necessary to add that phrase "as

22 being suggested by the Prosecution." The question is there.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. I'll go about it in another way, Your

24 Honour, because I do believe that there is some worries from this

25 gentleman.

Page 9493

1 Q. When you read -- when you were informed about the summary

2 execution of Resid Sinanovic, what came to your mind?

3 A. I didn't think anything, because earlier I saw a paragraph from

4 the indictment in which it does say that he was summarily executed, but

5 this wasn't the case. I know that this wasn't the case. I did see him,

6 and if it says in the indictment that he died and before that he had seen

7 me, that means that I was somehow involved, but I was not involved in an

8 ugly way. And I was really concerned because in the indictment there are

9 some facts which may be linked to me.

10 Q. Okay. All right. Now, do you know what happened to Resid

11 Sinanovic after you -- after he left you? Just briefly tell us, do you

12 know what happened to him?

13 A. He left to the collection centre, which was in the school, like

14 everybody else. And now I know that on the 14th of December, 1995, he was

15 sent for treatment in Banja Koviljaca in Serbia -- that is, in Yugoslavia,

16 a day after I saw him.

17 Q. Now, is that December or could it be another month?

18 A. It was in July. 14 July. I may have misspoken, and I would like

19 to correct myself. The 14th of July I saw the document according to which

20 he was in that town on that day.

21 Q. All right. Now, let me show you what has been marked as -- for

22 identification purposes as D169.

23 Please look at these documents. Just look at them first, and

24 we're going to go step by step. Do you recognise these documents?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9494

1 Q. And what are these documents?

2 A. This is a letter sent by Milenko Marin from Loznica. He was the

3 director of the health centre, and it was sent to a lawyer Londrovic from

4 Bijeljina.

5 Q. First, I'm going to ask you to slow down. Slow down, because

6 everything is being translated, okay? Who was it sent to? Could you

7 please repeat the name again.

8 A. I apologise.

9 Q. It's all right. We're all nervous here.

10 A. This was sent to Veselin Londrovic, attorney-at-law, by

11 Dr. Milenko Marin, the director of the medical centre in Loznica.

12 Q. Okay. How did you get a hold of this document -- let me back up.

13 Have you seen this document before? Have you seen this document before?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How did you -- how did it come to your possession? How is it that

16 you saw it?

17 A. I personally asked Mr. Veselin Londrovic, attorney-at-law from

18 Bijeljina, to tell me whether he had such a document in his possession.

19 This is the person who represented Mr. Momir Nikolic, this

20 attorney-at-law. Should I tell you the reason why I wanted to see this

21 document?

22 Q. I'm going to ask you the reason, step by step. What was the

23 reason for asking for the document?

24 A. I asked for this document for the following reason: I was very

25 worried after the visit of the representatives of The Hague Tribunal and

Page 9495

1 the conversation that I had with them in December 2003.

2 Q. Why were you concerned? What was the nature of your concern?

3 A. I was concerned because the alleged death or disappearance of

4 Resid Sinanovic had nothing whatsoever to do with me.

5 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us what the next document is,

6 the one that you received and Mr. Londrovic received.

7 A. This is a photocopy of the title page of the logbook from the year

8 1995.

9 Q. And is there any particular section on this page, the photocopied

10 page - and that would be on page 3 of the English version - is there any

11 portion of it that is relevant to what we are discussing right now?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, I understand -- I can see that on the left-hand side of the

14 page we have some numbers. Could you please read out the number that is

15 relevant.

16 A. If you will allow me, the date is more relevant than the number

17 itself.

18 Q. Okay. But if you will allow me, let me walk you through. First,

19 which part --

20 A. I apologise again.

21 Q. No worries. Okay.

22 A. Once again, I apologise. This number is 2028.

23 Q. Okay. And if we go through -- if we go across the page, what does

24 it say there in Srpski?

25 A. In Serbian it says: "Resid Sinanovic."

Page 9496

1 Q. All right. And further down, if we go over, does it have a date

2 of birth that you can read?

3 A. I can see 19, but the last two digits are illegible. I can't read

4 the last two digits.

5 Q. All right. And if you go further down, where it says street

6 number, residence, place of municipality, what does it say there?

7 A. It says "Srebrenica," and underneath it says "Bratunac," but the

8 word "Bratunac" is crossed out, I think.

9 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever -- what is this document -- and what is

10 the date for this document?

11 A. 14 July 1995.

12 Q. All right. Now, is the second page relevant?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. All right. Incidentally, before we get to the second page, under

15 date, the second column -- if you go back to the first page, sir.

16 Mr. Celanovic, if I could direct your attention to the first page, where

17 it says "date." Okay. I want you to look at the column 2026. Do you see

18 a date there?

19 A. Yes, the date is 15 July. Now I can see it. Yes, 15 July. I

20 apologise. I only looked at the top of the page before, just the first

21 entry on the top of that page.

22 Q. And, sir, if we go further down, to 2028, it would appear that

23 that would be the date, 15 July 1995. Right?

24 A. Yes, that name under that number is that date.

25 Q. Okay. If we go to the second page, is there anything significant

Page 9497

1 that we need to be aware of?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what is it?

4 A. In the third column from the bottom towards the top of the page.

5 Q. Okay. Yes. What about it? What does it say there?

6 A. It says "Dr. Bozica" in the top left corner. In the right upper

7 corner of that column, it says the treatment of wound.

8 Q. Okay. And what treatment did he receive? What treatment does it

9 appear that this gentleman by the name of Resid received?

10 A. I don't know what wound he had or if he had any at all.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Will you allow me to read this to the end?

13 Q. Well, yes. Please.

14 A. Underneath, it says that he was referred to the surgical

15 department. And underneath again, it says admitted and then returned to

16 the surgical department again.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, these documents, after you received them

18 from Mr. Londrovic, did you do anything with them?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did you do?

21 A. I tried to deliver this document to the investigator of The Hague

22 Tribunal who had interviewed me. His name is Alistair Graham. This is

23 what I read on the card that I have.

24 Q. Okay. I think we've come across that name before. Well, did you

25 -- did he accept the documents?

Page 9498

1 A. Mr. Alistair did not refuse to accept the documents; however --

2 may I continue, please?

3 Q. Well, yes.

4 A. I spoke to him on the phone, and I informed him that I had a

5 written document, and I meant this document that I have before me as we

6 speak, and that this document confirmed that my statement given to him, to

7 Mr. Alistair Graham, was truthful.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. He told me that I could fax this document to him, but that I

10 should wait a little for him to check whether the Prosecution had that

11 document already. Maybe he had it already he said.

12 Q. All right. Did he get back to you? Did Mr. Graham return -- get

13 back to you?

14 A. No, he didn't get back to me; I called him two, maybe three times.

15 I wanted to be sure that they would receive my fax, that -- when I sent

16 it. I spoke to Mr. Alistair again and he told me that due to the holiday

17 period in January -- and during that holiday period he would again come to

18 Bratunac and that if I had that document -- or if he had that document,

19 that he would bring it with him, because he would have had the time to

20 check whether he had it and to bring it with him. If he didn't have that

21 document, on the other hand, then he would take it from me.

22 Q. All right. Now, did he ever come to pick up the document or to

23 show you a copy of the document?

24 A. No, he never did.

25 Q. Did you ever manage to fax it or deliver it to Alistair Graham,

Page 9499

1 who was an investigator for the Office of the Prosecution working directly

2 on this case?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And when was that, sir?

5 A. This was in April. I believe it was the end of April when I was

6 submitted a transcript of my interview with Alistair, as well as a CD, and

7 when I was told that I had been proposed to be the Defence counsel and

8 that they could not contact me as such any longer -- any more.

9 Q. So that would have been April 2004?

10 A. Yeah, this year. Yes, yes. I apologise because of my

11 imprecision.

12 Q. All right. Now, since we're with -- we're talking about Resid

13 Sinanovic. I want to stay with him and I want to discuss what happened.

14 First of all, did you know Resid Sinanovic?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. First of all, who is -- how did you know him?

17 A. We were good colleagues, the two of us. We were good friends. We

18 were both fishermen, anglers, we were comrades. This is as much as I can

19 put into this description. Need I say more?

20 Q. And was he an educated man, Mr. Sinanovic?

21 A. Yes, he was. He was a jurist.

22 Q. Now, what -- prior to the war, where did Mr. Sinanovic live?

23 A. He lived in Bratunac.

24 Q. And what position -- what kind of work did Mr. Sinanovic do?

25 A. For a while he performed the duty of head of the police station,

Page 9500

1 of the SUP. And the last post which he held over the last year or two

2 years, I'm not quite sure, was this post that he had with the decorative

3 ceramic tiles factory in Bratunac as a secretary.

4 Q. And that was the same factory where in 1995 the Bratunac Brigade

5 headquarters were located. Correct?

6 A. It is the same factory, but when I used to visit him prior to the

7 war, he was sitting in the building where the military police was, or

8 rather, his office was there, and that also belonged to the same. It was

9 a detached building of the same factory.

10 Q. All right. Just for a point of clarification, earlier you said

11 that he was with the Bratunac Brigade -- I mean, with the -- he was with

12 the police department, and it says here "SUP." He was head of the police

13 station of the SUP. Would that be MUP, M-U-P?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Now, when the war broke out, do you know what happened

16 to Mr. Sinanovic?

17 A. Well, he fled Bratunac.

18 Q. Do you know where he went?

19 A. I don't know where he went. Probably to Srebrenica.

20 Q. All right. Now, you talked a little bit yesterday about your

21 position in interviewing prisoners of war that were brought to you. Were

22 you at any point in time made aware of Mr. Sinanovic being a potential or

23 an alleged war criminal?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And could you please tell us what the circumstances were. What

Page 9501

1 had you learned?

2 A. Well, I probably already mentioned that I participated in the

3 collection of information about the war crimes committed by Muslims

4 against the Serbs - I mean in Srebrenica and Bratunac - and that in the

5 process I had occasion to hear, in taking statements from the Serbian

6 civilians who had survived massacres in the Serbian villages. Namely,

7 some of them mentioned Resid Sinanovic as a person who had participated in

8 the attack on the village of Bjelovac. However, these statements

9 associated with him were not at all logical and that is why I did not

10 indeed accept them as serious statements. Nevertheless, his name came to

11 feature on record as a person suspected of war crimes in the book which I

12 referred to yesterday written by the author Ivanisevic.

13 Q. All right. Now, did you place his name or forward his name to be

14 placed in that book? Because if I believe your previous testimony, you

15 were forwarding information to a commission regarding alleged war

16 criminals.

17 A. No, no. There was no grounds for that whatsoever.

18 Q. Now, when -- in 1995 in July, after the fall of Srebrenica, did

19 you get an opportunity to see Mr. Sinanovic?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. And could you please tell us, if you recall, the date.

22 A. It was the 13th of July, 1995.

23 Q. Would you please tell us where you saw him.

24 A. I saw him at my office.

25 Q. Would you please tell us how it is that Mr. Sinanovic came to your

Page 9502

1 office or appeared at your office.

2 A. He was brought there by Mr. Momir Nikolic.

3 Q. Do you recall -- I'll wait.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Perhaps the volume is ...

5 Q. Can you hear me?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. And if you have any problems with hearing, let us

8 know.

9 Okay. Now, when Mr. Nikolic brought him over there, did

10 Mr. Nikolic say anything to you?

11 A. No translation. I'm getting no translation.

12 Q. All right. Well --

13 A. I cannot reply, not having heard your question translated.

14 Q. Don't panic. Don't panic.

15 A. There is no panic, in fact. I apologise, but that's the way it

16 is.

17 Q. That's all right. That's all right.

18 When Momir Nikolic brought Mr. Sinanovic over, did he say anything

19 to you? Mr. Nikolic, that is.

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. And could you please tell us what he told you.

22 A. He told me there -- actually, he got a hold of me outside, in the

23 courtyard. He told me: Here, look, I've brought your colleague Resid

24 Sinanovic. Come with me to the office. Take a look at these statements

25 that you have, because he has been suspected of war crimes, and look in

Page 9503

1 your statements whether you have anything serious which would attest to

2 that.

3 Q. All right. Could you please tell us about what time of day it

4 would have been on the 13th of July, 1995, that Momir Nikolic brought

5 Mr. Sinanovic over to your office.

6 A. Well, it was in the morning hours, sometime around 10.00 or 11.00.

7 I cannot say with precision.

8 Q. All right. And after Mr. Nikolic told you that he had brought

9 your colleague, Mr. Sinanovic, what did you and perhaps even Mr. Nikolic

10 do?

11 A. First of all, we entered the office.

12 Q. And when you entered the office, could you please explain to us,

13 in what condition did you find Mr. Sinanovic?

14 A. Yes. My colleague Mr. Resid Sinanovic looked tired, but he looked

15 physically sound, unhurt. He was sitting there on a chair. As I came in,

16 we greeted each other normal fashion, like normal people. We struck -- we

17 started talking to each other.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. In the meanwhile, Momir Nikolic said goodbye to Resid and he went

20 out. He said: I'm going out to the terrain, and that's what he said;

21 goodbye.

22 Q. Now, was Mr. Sinanovic restrained in any way? Did he have any

23 handcuffs on him?

24 A. No, he wasn't. He didn't.

25 Q. Now, could you please tell us, after Momir Nikolic left your

Page 9504

1 office to go to the terrain, as he had said, what did you do?

2 A. I went on talking with Mr. Sinanovic. It was only normal for us

3 to talk to each other. We hadn't seen each other for four years, so we

4 sat there, and I offered him some coffee, which he accepted, and I also

5 offered him some snacks and he had a bit to eat. I also offered what

6 cigarettes I had and also a glass of brandy. So whatever I had, I offered

7 to him. And we talked about everything.

8 Q. How long -- I didn't mean to interrupt you there. How long did

9 you talk with Mr. Sinanovic, approximately?

10 A. Well, initially for about 45 minutes or half an hour. That's how

11 it was.

12 Q. Now, you had been given some instructions from Mr. Nikolic?

13 A. Nothing specific.

14 Q. All right. But I have -- okay. Well, if I could refer back to

15 your earlier statement or your earlier comments, Mr. Nikolic had asked

16 you, had he not, to look to some -- to see whether there was any

17 information regarding the allegations against Mr. Sinanovic.

18 A. Yes. I apologise, I did not get your last question correctly, and

19 if that is it, yes.

20 Q. All right. No need to apologise.

21 Now, did you have a conversation with Mr. Sinanovic regarding any

22 activities he might have been involved in or anyone else might have been

23 involved in concerning war crimes?

24 A. I told him this: I told him that I already had a position of my

25 own on the question, namely -- well, I cannot exactly say what I said on

Page 9505

1 that occasion because I had to be courteous in this court. I said there

2 was no reason for him to have been labelled in this way at all, especially

3 given the fact that, in addition to him, his wife had also been labelled

4 as such and that I thought -- it was my position that he had nothing

5 whatsoever to do with it and that he should not be worried at all. And

6 then we didn't talk about it anymore.

7 Q. Did you collect any other information from him with respect to the

8 Muslim fighters that were in Srebrenica but had --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Did you by any chance memorialise, take notes,

11 regarding your conversation with Mr. Sinanovic?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. All right. Now, let me show you what has been marked as P476 and

14 has come into evidence in fact. A is the English version, B is the

15 handwritten version. Take your time. Please look at the document first.

16 When you're through looking at it, let me know and I'll ask you some

17 questions.

18 A. All right.

19 Q. First of all, do you recognise the handwriting on this document?

20 A. Yes. It is my handwriting.

21 Q. All right. And do you recognise the subject matter that is in

22 this document that bears your handwriting?

23 A. Yes. This is a record of the statement of Resid Sinanovic, but

24 rather, his account of things than a formal statement.

25 Q. All right. And do these notes reflect the nature of your

Page 9506

1 conversation with respect to the events surrounding -- the Muslim

2 population that had left Srebrenica? Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Now, if we look at this document, it would appear that there is

5 information on this document that might be relevant to your commander or

6 to the security organ or intelligence organ. Correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. My first question is: Did you pass this document on to anyone, or

9 this information on to anyone up the chain of command so at least they

10 would be aware of what Mr. Sinanovic had told you?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 Q. Did you --

13 A. No. Sorry. I thought you had completed your question.

14 Q. All right. Did you share this information with Momir Nikolic, the

15 individual who had brought Resid Sinanovic to your office?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you share this information with Colonel Beara in any way?

18 A. No, I didn't. No.

19 Q. Did you share this information with your commander, Colonel

20 Blagojevic?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Would you please tell us, considering that, as we've discussed

23 yesterday, at one point during this war you had activities related to

24 counter-intelligence activities, or the gathering of counter-intelligence

25 information, could you please tell us why you did not share this

Page 9507

1 information with anyone.

2 A. The data contained in this note actually reflects a spontaneous

3 conversation between Resid Sinanovic and myself. And basically I told him

4 what my role on that day was, to try and record the people, or rather, to

5 check whether the people being brought in were on the list of suspects of

6 war crimes against the civilian population. He was aware of this role of

7 my mine, and I asked him and told him that it would be very useful if he

8 knew anything - after all, he knew what I was doing - to tell me where --

9 if he knew where Naser's commanders were with the troops.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. In particular, where the commanders were, because all of them had

12 been, in a way, on record as suspects for war crimes committed against

13 civilians in attacking Serbian villages and torching Serbian villages when

14 a lot of people died.

15 Q. All right. But specifically I want to focus your attention to the

16 language in your notes where it states that: "This morning, about a

17 thousand to 1.500 armed men remained. About 6 to 7.000 remained in the

18 spot where the shells landed."

19 And it goes on. This information would appear to be somewhat

20 significant, in light of the fact that we're talking about armed Muslim

21 men whom you knew had committed, or were accused of having committed

22 atrocities against the Serbs. Did you not think it was necessary for you

23 to bring this to anyone's attention so they could act upon it?

24 A. Yes, because according to the order from Mr. Beara, I was not

25 supposed to focus on that particular part. This is just an account by

Page 9508

1 Resid Sinanovic without him having been asked any specific questions. So

2 I just put it down so it would be obvious that I had indeed conducted this

3 conversation with him. And secondly, in the classical and conventional

4 sense, one could not use this particular bit of information at all because

5 we had a moving army and moving people, movement of the people and of

6 troops. So it was not a question of the day; it was a question of a

7 situation changing from hour to hour.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. And actually, no one wanted me to -- required me to pass on such

10 information to anyone.

11 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Celanovic, before we talk about what happened

12 during your visit with Mr. Sinanovic, I want to take the opportunity to

13 inform you that during this trial a Prosecution witness, former employee

14 of theirs, Richard Butler, indicated - and I'm reading from page 4.486,

15 lines 10 through 12 - that: "These interrogation notes were found in the

16 security office of the Bratunac or of the former Bratunac Light Infantry

17 Brigade during the OTP search."

18 That's a quote/unquote from the record on 13 November 2003.

19 You've just told us that you didn't pass this information on to

20 Momir Nikolic, whom we all know was the head of security and intelligence

21 of the Bratunac Brigade. Would you please explain to us how it is that

22 these notes then landed in his office.

23 A. It is a fact that I never handed over these notes to him. After I

24 compiled them, I put them somewhere in my office, in one of the drawers.

25 They were insignificant; I didn't even give it a second thought. How they

Page 9509

1 came to end up in Momir Nikolic's office, I have no idea. I have no

2 explanation. Maybe after I started working in the civilian sector -- I

3 find it inexplicable, in fact.

4 Q. Let me help you out here, or perhaps you can help us out. We

5 know, having heard the testimony of one Ruez, who was the chief

6 investigator at the time, that some years after commencing the

7 investigation in this case at about 1998, he received -- he got the

8 documents from what he believed to have been the headquarters of the

9 Bratunac Brigade. Could you please tell us, in 1998, where was the

10 Bratunac Brigade located? Where were their offices located at that point

11 in time, if you know?

12 A. I do know that the headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade at the

13 time -- was relocated at the time to the former building of the military

14 police, which I already referred to as the auxiliary building in front of

15 the gate to the ceramic tiles factory called Kaolin.

16 Q. All right. And that would have been --

17 A. So it was in another place. Sorry.

18 Q. And that would have been the same building where your offices were

19 located back in 1995. Am I correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. All right. Perhaps that might assist us in figuring out why they

22 ended up there.

23 Now, getting back to Resid Sinanovic, while he was in your office

24 did anyone else visit him?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9510

1 Q. And could you please tell us who.

2 A. A friend of his from Bratunac, Srbislav Davidovic, aka Buco.

3 Q. And what was Mr. Davidovic's position at that point in time, in

4 the community of Bratunac, that is, if you recall?

5 A. I think that he was a civilian working with the municipal

6 authorities. And also, he had this duty which he had performed for many

7 years, that is, the peoples' university director. I'm not sure what he

8 was at that particular point in time.

9 Q. Could you please explain to us, if you can, how is it that

10 Mr. Davidovic knew that Mr. Sinanovic was in your office at that point in

11 time?

12 A. I don't know how he came by that information. He only told me

13 that he had heard that Momir had brought Resid in, and he asked whether he

14 could see him. So he heard from somebody; I don't know who from.

15 Obviously I allowed him to come into my office, because the three of us

16 were colleagues and even friends.

17 Q. All right. Could you please tell us what, if anything, happened

18 or what, if anything, was discussed when Mr. Davidovic was there visiting

19 you and Mr. Sinanovic.

20 A. Yes. It was an informal conversation about life and things of

21 that sort. We didn't talk about the army or anything of that sort. I

22 left the office for a while. The two of them were better friends than

23 Resid and I, so I thought it would be a courteous thing for me to step out

24 of the office and leave the two of them alone. I was standing in front of

25 the building for about an hour. I was in the courtyard of the building.

Page 9511

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. And then I returned to my office.

3 Q. All right. Do you know about how long Mr. Davidovic visited?

4 A. About an hour or so.

5 Q. All right. After Mr. Davidovic left, what did you -- what

6 happened or what did you do with Mr. Sinanovic?

7 A. We talked some more, and then he was taken away to the school,

8 which was a collection centre.

9 Q. All right. First of all, how long was Mr. Sinanovic there before

10 he was, as you put it, taken away to the school which was the collection

11 centre?

12 A. An hour or two hours from the moment when he first came to the

13 moment when he was taken to the collection centre. It could have been

14 less or maybe more. I don't know for a fact. I didn't pay too much

15 attention to the time that he spent in my office. I didn't look at the

16 watch. And even if I had, I would have forgotten by now. It was a long

17 time ago.

18 Q. All right. Could you please tell us, who came by to take him

19 away? Who were these individuals?

20 A. They were members of a unit which was not from Bratunac. I didn't

21 know them. They were the same soldiers who, immediately after Nikolic had

22 brought Resid in, also brought some five or six other people, whose

23 particulars I took while I was standing outside while Srbislav and Resid

24 were talking in my office.

25 Q. All right. Do you know whether they were part of the military or

Page 9512

1 whether they were part of MUP?

2 A. They were part of the military. They had a coat of arms of

3 Republika Srpska. I didn't know -- I didn't see which unit they belonged

4 to. I didn't come any closer. They were rather arrogant. I believe that

5 they belonged to a special military police unit, because they were in

6 charge of taking this group of people to the school to hand them over to

7 the people there.

8 Q. All right. Did they have any -- other than the coat of arms that

9 you were able to note, did they have any other insignia or any other --

10 any other insignia, let's stay with that, that would indicate whether they

11 were soldiers or part of the military police?

12 A. I didn't see anything. They may have had something, but I didn't

13 see it.

14 Q. All right. Do you recall whether their uniforms had any distinct

15 colours or anything that would set them out, set them apart?

16 A. No special colours. They had military overalls, good-quality

17 military overalls, of the sort that our troops in Bratunac didn't have.

18 Some did, but not all of them. They had different sorts of uniforms. And

19 judging by their behaviour and their appearance, they were members of some

20 important unit; they were not from the Bratunac Brigade. I didn't dare

21 ask them.

22 Q. Well, let me just walk you through. All right. First of all, did

23 they inform you who their commander was?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did they inform you who had instructed them to come to the

Page 9513

1 Bratunac Brigade to either bring prisoners to you or to take prisoners

2 away from you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, you said you didn't ask them. Is there a particular reason

5 why you didn't ask them, you know: Who are you? What are you doing? On

6 whose instructions you are here?

7 A. There is a reason. They appeared and asked for somebody to point

8 them in the direction of the school, because they were there to take these

9 people to the school.

10 Q. All right. When they came to take Resid Sinanovic away - someone

11 who you knew as a colleague and as a friend, who you had concluded, even

12 before meeting him, that he was not a war criminal - why did you not

13 refuse to give Mr. Sinanovic to these individuals to take him away to the

14 collection centre?

15 A. Because I believed that they were following a procedure and that

16 Resid was not threatened in any way. By being taken to the collection

17 centre, he would stay alive, that there was no threat for him.

18 Q. At that point in time, sir, did you know what was going to happen

19 to the individuals -- or what did you think would happen to the

20 individuals, I should say, that were taken to the collection centre?

21 A. I didn't think anything would happen to him. I simply thought

22 that once he was in the collection centre, that they would all be

23 transported to Kladanj, Tuzla, Zvornik, or the nearest part of the

24 territory under the control of the Muslim armed forces. I believed that

25 these people would just be evacuated, as simple as that.

Page 9514

1 Q. And what was the basis of this belief?

2 A. There was no reason for me to believe anything else or think

3 anything else. It would not be logical for me to believe or think

4 anything else. How could I ever think that somebody had the intention to

5 hurt, harm, or kill so many people? And my belief was spontaneously

6 corroborated by my conversation with Colonel Beara.

7 Q. All right. Well, we're going to get to that. We're going to get

8 to Colonel Beara. Now, were you in Potocari on that day or the day

9 before?

10 A. Yes. In front of Potocari, or before Potocari.

11 Q. Did you go to Potocari where the mass of people were located that

12 had come from Srebrenica and were there with the Dutch?

13 A. No.

14 Q. From where you had gone to -- first of all, how far towards

15 Potocari you had gone? You know that there's a yellow bridge as you leave

16 Bratunac and before you get to Potocari; had you passed the yellow bridge,

17 checkpoint?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How far past the checkpoint had you gone toward Potocari?

20 A. I drove as far as the building of Elektrodistribucija, which is at

21 the entrance to Potocari.

22 Q. Do you recall what day that was that you drove to this location?

23 A. I'm not sure. Maybe on the same day when Resid was in my office.

24 Q. All right. Do you recall what time of day it was when you drove

25 to that location?

Page 9515

1 A. Midday. After 1.00 in the afternoon maybe, but I can't be sure of

2 that.

3 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us, what were the reasons for you

4 going to that location?

5 A. I went there by accident.

6 Q. All right. Well, one doesn't get to one location by accident.

7 You had to --

8 A. Yes, you're right. Can I explain then?

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Initially I wanted to go to Vihor, to my company. I wanted to

11 take some stationery, some paper and carbon paper. I was short on

12 supplies in my office. I passed by the medical centre and I saw Dr. Vesna

13 Ivanovic and a nurse who asked me to give them a lift. We talked, and I

14 believe that they were a team on duty to -- who were being sent to the

15 place where there was a lot of people gathering. I took them to the

16 building of Elektrodistribucija and some 100 or 150 metres in front of me

17 I saw a convoy of members of the United Nations across the road, and

18 behind them I saw a crowd of people. I left the two of them there because

19 I had some chores to do. I went to my office to fetch the stationery, and

20 then I returned. That's why I say I found myself there by accident,

21 because I didn't have any intention of going there in the first place. I

22 didn't have any reason to find myself there.

23 Q. All right. Just a couple of questions before we -- short ones,

24 hopefully. Did you get out of your car at that point to walk around?

25 A. No.

Page 9516

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, perhaps this might be a good time for

2 a break.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll have a break and we'll resume at quarter to

4 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, before we hear the witness, are there any

8 matters? Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I think we can save some time

10 by me just clarifying an issue, and I've spoken to Mr. Karnavas about this

11 briefly.

12 At the break I talked to Mr. Graham to refresh my recollection on

13 the subject matter of these medical records of -- possible medical records

14 of Resid Sinanovic. And Mr. Graham did acknowledge that he did have

15 communications with this witness regarding those documents, and that was

16 at a time prior to Momir Nikolic's plea. And the witness did tell us that

17 he had received these documents from Mr. Nikolic's lawyer. And so what

18 Mr. Graham had said is that, well, we are not sure we can get this

19 material at this time, given that it may be confidential material. And so

20 that's why there was a delay.

21 In April, after I believe the matter with Mr. Nikolic was

22 resolved, Bruce Bursik was in Bratunac and did meet with the witness and

23 picked up these -- copies of these materials. And shortly thereafter, in

24 May, those materials were provided to the Defence. So Mr. Shin won't be

25 asking too many questions, hopefully, on that topic as I think that sort

Page 9517

1 of should have clarified it. And I didn't think it was a big enough issue

2 to worry about rebuttal witnesses and that sort of thing. And I think

3 Mr. Karnavas agrees with me that this should at least clear it up for now,

4 unless anyone has any more questions.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

6 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I have nothing to add. I think it's a perfectly

8 acceptable explanation. Circumstantial evidence, we can see how it can

9 sometimes lead us to the wrong conclusions.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I have no comments on that.

11 Well, could we have the witness, please.

12 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14 Q. Mr. Celanovic, now I believe you indicated that at some point

15 there were several other Muslim males that came or were brought to you for

16 you to question. Is that correct?

17 A. It is correct that there were some other men, Muslim men, who were

18 not brought to me for interrogation. They were brought because the

19 soldiers who escorted them didn't know where the school was. And I

20 explained to those soldiers what my role was on that day, and they

21 understood that.

22 Q. All right. Did you question any of those individuals, those

23 Muslim men that were with those soldiers?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you make notes of that questioning?

Page 9518

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, could you please -- we began -- first

3 of all, let me ask you: Why did you question those individuals?

4 A. It was not a classical interrogation. My obligation was to find

5 out who these people were, where they were headed, and how they had

6 reached Bratunac. Another thing that I was supposed to ask them was

7 whether they were aware of the whereabouts of Naser's commanders, for the

8 reasons that I have already explained.

9 Q. And on whose orders or instructions were you questioning these

10 individuals?

11 A. Mr. Ljubisa Beara's orders and instructions, who was a

12 high-ranking security officer.

13 Q. All right. And I don't know if I asked you this question

14 yesterday, and if I have I apologise, but when Mr. Beara gave you this

15 order, did you inform Colonel Blagojevic that you were conducting this

16 questioning?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. I'm told that perhaps the translation was not accurate, so let me

19 ask the question again. When Colonel Beara gave -- issued this order to

20 you, did you inform your commander, Colonel Blagojevic, that you had been

21 instructed by Colonel Beara to carry out this activity?

22 A. No. I didn't know where Commander Blagojevic was, and I was never

23 asked to inform Commander Blagojevic about that.

24 Q. Well, let me show you some documents, a list of documents. And

25 for the sake of time I'm going to hand you what has been marked for

Page 9519

1 identification as P477, P478, and P479. I believe these documents have

2 been introduced into evidence already. If you could look at -- if you

3 could look at those documents and first of all please tell us if you

4 recognise the handwriting.

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And whose handwriting is it?

7 A. This is my handwriting.

8 Q. Do you recall when you made these notations?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Okay. When was it that you made these notations?

11 A. On 13 July 1995.

12 Q. And what were these notations in relation to? Why were they made?

13 A. They referred to my identification of the persons who had been

14 brought, and the purpose was to see whether any of them was on record as a

15 suspect of war crimes against the civilian Serbian population.

16 Q. Did you also question these individuals with respect to others who

17 might be on any lists?

18 A. Yes. First, I identified these persons, and you can find their

19 names here. None of these individuals had been recorded on any lists of

20 suspect, save for Resid Sinanovic. In order to curtail the whole

21 procedure, I focused on finding out from them where Naser's commanders

22 were. Those are a few people whose names are mentioned here. Not all of

23 them, but some of them. And that's the kind of answers they gave me.

24 Q. All right. And what happened to these notes once you completed

25 them? What did you do with them?

Page 9520

1 A. I left them in my office, either on one of the shelves or in my

2 desk, because nothing significant had happened. None of these persons

3 were identified as suspects. To my mind, their record was clean, and then

4 they were taken to the school.

5 Q. All right. Well, let me stop you there. How long did you

6 question these individuals?

7 A. A couple minutes, three minutes, five minutes, depending on how

8 much they had to tell me. And then I made some very informal notes on the

9 conversations that I had.

10 Q. Where did this questioning take place?

11 A. Outside. In front of the building in which my office was.

12 Q. Well, if you had --

13 A. The courtyard.

14 Q. Well, if you had an office that was only a few metres away, why

15 didn't you question them in your office?

16 A. During that time, Resid Sinanovic and Srbislav Davidovic were in

17 my office for an hour; they were talking there. And even if they hadn't

18 been there, I would have still talked to these people outside, because it

19 was very, very hot. And my conversation with these people was informal,

20 in the shade. There was no need for me to take them to my office and

21 waste time in this very, very hot room.

22 Q. Now, the individuals that brought -- the soldiers that brought

23 these Muslim men to you, where were they when you were conducting this

24 questioning?

25 A. They were there.

Page 9521

1 Q. How were these Muslim men brought to you?

2 A. Excuse me. They were brought in front of the military police

3 building, and these soldiers asked for directions to the elementary school

4 in which would be accommodated, i.e., receive these Muslims.

5 Q. Let me get back to my question: How were they brought there by

6 these soldiers? Were they on foot? Were they in a particular vehicle?

7 A. Yes, I understand the question. They were in a vehicle, and this

8 vehicle is called, in soldiers' lingo, the 110 vehicle. It is a small

9 truck, in fact, intended for personnel, i.e., troops, transportation,

10 because it has seats, and of course cargo can also be transported. I

11 cannot tell you the exact make and manufacture of the car, and this was a

12 designation that was used by us all, 110.

13 Q. Would that be a 110 TAM, T-A-M? Is that what we're talking about?

14 A. I told you I wasn't sure of the make. It is probably a T-A-M 110,

15 because we had many vehicles manufactured for the army by TAM.

16 Q. Do you know from which unit this vehicle was from?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. All right. Now, I believe in one of your previous answers you

19 talked about -- you indicated that none of the individuals that you spoke

20 with were on any lists, correct, at least any lists that you were aware

21 of. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, except for Resid Sinanovic, who I believe was recorded in the

23 book, but these other persons weren't.

24 Q. All right. Now, let me show you what has come into evidence as

25 P442. 442/B is the Srpski version; A is the English version. Could you

Page 9522

1 just look at that list first of all.

2 A. Yes, yes. I looked at it.

3 Q. Now, according to -- again, the former employee of the Office of

4 the Prosecution, Richard Butler, on page 4.440 he indicated that he

5 believed that: "In January or February 1998, these documents were found

6 at the headquarters of the former Bratunac Brigade, specifically in the

7 office of the security officer of the Bratunac Brigade." That would be

8 found on lines 19 through 22.

9 So could you please explain to us, first of all, whether you had

10 seen this list.

11 A. No. This is not my list, nor have I seen it -- had I ever seen it

12 before, except for today.

13 Q. And of course, going back to your earlier answer, in 1998 the

14 Bratunac Brigade headquarters were located in the facilities where your

15 office was located in 1995. Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, back in 1995, where was Mr. Momir Nikolic's office located,

18 if you know, sir?

19 A. Yes, I know where it was. It was in the headquarters building of

20 the brigade, headquarters brigade, which is the factory building within

21 the compound of the clay or ceramic factory, which is to say outside the

22 building where my office was.

23 Q. All right. Now, first of all, in looking at this document, the

24 one that you have, do you -- can you recognise the typing machine which

25 might have generated this particular document? Would this be one that was

Page 9523

1 in your possession, in your office, at the time?

2 A. No. This text was typewritten by an electric machine whereas the

3 typewriter which I used throughout that period was a mechanical one and it

4 didn't have this particular shape of letters. I am well-versed in

5 machines, and this was typewritten on an electrical machine - I mean

6 typewriter - that I never had.

7 Q. Now, to the best of your knowledge, you never saw this, you did

8 not have this list back in July 1995. Is that correct? Is that what

9 you're stating?

10 A. That's right. I never saw this list, and as I stated I used this

11 book, Chronicle of Our Graveyards, which has systematised material with

12 the names of the people.

13 Q. When you were questioned by the Office of the Prosecution back on

14 10 December 2003, do you recall whether this list was shown to you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. It was not shown to you?

17 A. No, it wasn't shown to me.

18 Q. Now, have you had a chance before coming here today, before

19 testifying under oath, to look at this list?

20 A. Yes, I saw the list that you showed me.

21 Q. Well, is this the same list? That's what I'm asking you.

22 A. I didn't understand the question. Can it be put more precisely,

23 please.

24 Q. Okay. Before coming here today to testify, okay -- and we know

25 the Prosecutor never showed you the document, but before coming to testify

Page 9524

1 here, did you have a chance to look at this document?

2 A. Before taking the stand today, I saw this document during the

3 proofing, the preparations for testifying before you.

4 Q. And that was a couple of days ago?

5 A. Yes, before -- before I entered this courtroom for the first time.

6 Q. Okay. Now, in looking at this list, do you recognise the names on

7 the list, or at least some of the names on the list?

8 A. I do recognise some of the names, and I have recognised some of

9 them. And given the nature of this list, some of these names should

10 certainly not be on the list.

11 Q. Okay. Could you give us a representative example.

12 A. Well, there are a number of them, but I will give you an example.

13 Just a minute, please. Bear with me until I can find it.

14 Q. Perhaps it might save some time if I were to present you with my

15 copy. And I will ask some foundational questions first.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Let me show you --

18 A. Thank you.

19 Q. -- another copy of P442/B. On that particular copy, sir, you see

20 some highlighted -- a blue highlight on the page, do you not? Some of the

21 names have been highlighted. Correct?

22 A. Yes. Correct.

23 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us, who placed those highlights

24 there?

25 A. I highlighted those names. I highlighted them when I was going

Page 9525

1 through the list.

2 Q. Okay. And just -- we don't have to go through all of them, but if

3 you could read out the number of some of those highlights and please tell

4 us or give us your opinion with respect to some of the names that occur on

5 this list --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- that you believe have no reason to be on this list.

8 A. Number 15.

9 Q. Okay. Now, what is wrong with number 15?

10 A. Number 16 --

11 Q. Okay. Cekaj. Hold on for one second. As we go through each

12 name, I would like you to give a short explanation as to why you believe

13 this individual should not be on the list.

14 Okay. So number 15. Okay, who is this person and why is it your

15 belief --

16 A. Oh, I see.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: And I think that will be fine, Mr. Usher, so you

19 don't have to trouble yourself.

20 A. So number 15, Dzevad, father Hamed, Gusic, born in 1960 in

21 Bratunac. I know him personally. He was or is still a deputy of the

22 Assembly of Republika Srpska, and he performed the -- the same duty as I

23 did in Bratunac is what he did in the Srebrenica armed forces, but there

24 was never any report of any untoward behaviour on the part of this person

25 and he should not be on this list definitely. I should like to know that

Page 9526

1 on the list we have organisers of war crimes. So prior to the war, he

2 never participated in any such crime.

3 Q. I'm going to need you to speak a little slower. Okay. All right.

4 So on this list, if I understand you correctly, you do recognise names

5 which you believe were accused or were alleged to have committed war

6 crimes.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, what other names on this -- on the first page that you see

9 should not be on this list?

10 A. Number 16, Izet, father Sulejman, Gusic.

11 Q. Can you please tell us why you think this individual shouldn't be

12 on the list.

13 A. Because no one ever heard of him having done anything ugly, and

14 specifically nothing of the kind that these people on the list are alleged

15 to have done.

16 Q. Anybody else?

17 A. Well, there are many of them, many more of them, if you will allow

18 me.

19 Q. Okay. Just pick a sample. We don't have to go through the entire

20 list.

21 A. Well, as a sample, 71 and 72.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Nurija, father Hamdija, Dzanic; and Salcin, father Hamdija,

24 Dzanic. These are people who fled from Bratunac sometime in March 1992.

25 They were not in the area of Bratunac and Srebrenica during the war in the

Page 9527

1 first place. They had no opportunity to do what they are alleged to have

2 done. And these are decent people and should certainly not be on this

3 list which was made arbitrarily by someone.

4 Q. Anyone else?

5 A. Yes, there are more, if you will allow me. I don't know how much

6 time we have. Let me just tell you the numbers. It is, for instance, 35,

7 Enver Kubat, a physician, a doctor, who might have been in Srebrenica

8 possibly performing his duties as a doctor. And another example -- no,

9 there are many examples, and I would be happy as to read all of them so

10 you would know that these were decent people. And out of respect of those

11 people I would like to read out all of their names. They were Muslims,

12 but of course they were decent people in my mind. May I?

13 Q. Well, for the sake of time, let me ask a couple of questions.

14 A. All right.

15 Q. Are there any women on this list?

16 A. Yes, there are.

17 Q. And in your opinion, were these women alleged to have been war

18 criminals?

19 A. One of them was.

20 Q. What are the others?

21 A. Well, I never heard of these others. This one I know.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. That's number 23.

24 THE INTERPRETER: 323, interpreter's correction.


Page 9528

1 Q. Okay. And do you know who might have compiled this list?

2 A. No. I have no idea who could have compiled this list, but that

3 someone was not very critical in compiling this list, but perhaps was

4 tendentious, because this list should certainly not include some of these

5 people.

6 Q. In light of your position of having to question the occasional

7 prisoner of war, were you ever provided a list by Momir Nikolic, the

8 commander for intelligence and security for the Bratunac Brigade?

9 A. I do not remember having ever been provided any list by him. It

10 was rather that he received lists from me, partial ones.

11 Q. All right. Very well. I think that's about it for this

12 particular list.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, let's go back to July 13th. You indicated you had the

15 occasion to question certain individuals that were brought over by some

16 soldiers. Could you please tell us whether you saw, later that day,

17 Colonel Beara.

18 A. Yes. It was at dusk or in the evening.

19 Q. And could you please tell us where it was when you had this

20 meeting -- or when you met him, I should say.

21 A. At this same place as the previous -- as where the previous time

22 he informed me of what I was supposed to do, namely, to stay in front of

23 the building where my office was located.

24 Q. And what was the occasion for Colonel Beara to pay this visit to

25 you?

Page 9529

1 A. He probably knew what inter alia was my duty. So that what he

2 confided in me was because he believed, I think, that I would carry out

3 the job the way he ordered me to.

4 Q. All right. When you met him, did you inform him about your

5 results from the questioning of the various individuals, including Resid

6 Sinanovic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you recall whether Colonel Beara made any inquiries as to

9 whether you had questioned anyone; and if so, whether you had obtained any

10 relevant or vital information?

11 A. He asked me whether anything had happened. No, we said, there was

12 nothing interesting. People had gone to the school, and that was about it

13 as far as our conversation was concerned. We -- it was just one sentence.

14 Q. All right. Would you repeat your answer again, and please speak

15 slowly so that the interpreters can catch every sentence.

16 A. During our next meeting, he asked me: Have you done anything

17 today? And I just told him: Well, they have brought in several people,

18 but it's okay, none of them are discredited people. And that was more or

19 less it. And then they went to the school and the story ended there.

20 There was nothing more to it.

21 Q. Okay. Now, after that, did you do anything with Colonel Beara?

22 Did you go anywhere?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please describe to us where.

25 A. Well, before we started, we exchanged a couple of sentences to the

Page 9530

1 effect that it was not really secure to bring this number of prisoners

2 into a city where there were no troops. So he told me: Well, it's okay.

3 Let's go for a stroll. So we set off in front of the building where my

4 office was and walked down the street.

5 Q. Mr. Celanovic, kindly slow down. Kindly slow down. They have to

6 interpret. We don't want to overburden the people that are translating

7 you, so kindly slow down.

8 A. I apologise. I thought that I was slow enough.

9 So we set off together on foot in front of the building where my

10 office was, in the direction of the elementary school. So we eventually

11 arrived in this street which is nearby the bus station and leads from it

12 directly to the elementary school which is called the Branko Radicevic.

13 Q. Is that the same school that was called Vuk Karadzic?

14 A. I think so. I think that it is. When I gave my earlier

15 statements, I wasn't sure which school was which, but in the meantime,

16 before I came here, I inquired, so I found out that indeed it was this

17 school, Branko Radicevic. Probably the name was only changed.

18 Q. Can you tell us first of all what you observed when you were

19 there, taking this stroll with Colonel Beara.

20 A. I observed some vehicles, trucks, that is to say cargo trucks and

21 normal trucks -- and buses, sorry, which were full of people.

22 Q. And what were those people doing?

23 A. Nothing specific. They were sitting in these vehicles, either

24 with their buses or other vehicles. The street was full of these vehicles

25 all the way up to the school.

Page 9531

1 Q. And do you know who these people were that were in those vehicles,

2 the buses, the trucks?

3 A. Clearly they were Muslims, people that had been taken prisoner or

4 people who had surrendered.

5 Q. And did you know whether there were women and children in those

6 buses as well as men?

7 A. I did not see a single woman or a single child.

8 Q. Now, when you saw those buses and trucks full of Muslim males, did

9 you have any particular conversation with Colonel Beara, who, after all,

10 was the head of security of the Main Staff?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Would you please tell us what you two talked about.

13 A. Irrespective of the fact that he was a high-ranking security

14 officer, I felt free to ask him why these vehicles with the people in them

15 had not been transported immediately to where they were supposed to go,

16 which is to say to territory controlled by Muslim troops, why they had

17 these people sitting there waiting in our territory, around the school and

18 so on. It seemed they had already boarded these buses, why hadn't they

19 already been taken to their destination?

20 Q. And what was his response?

21 A. His response was that that was because a re-organisation of the

22 transport had to be carried out. In other words, there were too many

23 people per vehicle, and that on the return trip those vehicles that had

24 taken women and children to Kladanj, once those vehicles returned, a

25 better organisation or a re-organisation of the transportation of people

Page 9532

1 had to be undertaken and that they would be transported then to Kladanj or

2 elsewhere.

3 Q. Did you notice who was securing these buses and trucks?

4 A. Mostly men, i.e., soldiers, similarly dressed as the people who

5 had brought in the group of people that I referred to earlier. It was

6 already dark, it was dusk, and I cannot be 100 per cent sure that these

7 were people who were not members of the Bratunac Brigade.

8 Q. Did you notice whether there were any members from the Bratunac

9 Brigade, in particular members of the military police of the Bratunac

10 Brigade? For surely you would have recognised their faces in light of the

11 fact that your office was in the same building where the military police

12 were housed.

13 A. I would have recognised such persons, had there been any, because

14 I knew the military police members and many other soldiers as well.

15 However, perhaps I failed to say something before. I did not go to the

16 very end of the street, but I stopped before the school, in front of the

17 school, and Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Beara, he went on. And I could

18 see that the street leading to the municipality, there was some soldiers

19 in camouflage uniforms similar to the ones that we wore. But it was dusk,

20 so I allowed for the possibility of those people being even members of the

21 military police, but I can't be sure being at this distance of 50 metres

22 or so. But by the vehicles that came there were only and exclusively

23 members of some other units. I'm referring to the vehicles which were

24 parked in the street with the people inside or on those vehicles.

25 Q. Okay. Now, could you -- when Colonel Beara gave you that

Page 9533

1 explanation, would you please tell us what his demeanor was like. How did

2 he appear?

3 A. Normal.

4 Q. And did you believe Colonel Beara when he told you that?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 Q. Now, we've heard testimony here that Colonel Beara enjoyed,

7 perhaps on occasion, perhaps frequently, the taste for whiskey. Would you

8 happen to know whether on that particular evening when you were with

9 Colonel Beara, whether he was -- whether he had been drinking?

10 A. Not in front of me. He could not have had a drink in the

11 courtyard or on the street. Whether he had had a drink somewhere else, I

12 don't know. However, I believe that I'm experienced enough to recognise a

13 person who had been drinking. I don't know. I don't think so. I can't

14 be sure and I can't talk about it.

15 Q. Sorry, he did not -- did he appear sober?

16 A. Absolutely.

17 Q. Now, before departing with Colonel Beara, did you by any chance

18 sit and have a drink with him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Would you please tell us about how long it took for you to walk

21 with Colonel Beara to make your observations. How long were you with him?

22 A. We arrived in that street where the vehicles were parked in front

23 of the police building, and it had taken us about 15 metres [as

24 interpreted]. The street is about 500 metres long. I walked behind him.

25 He exchanged a few words with those guards. I was keeping my distance. I

Page 9534

1 didn't want to interfere with his conversations. This is how long it took

2 us, 15 minutes, and then 10 minutes from the police station to the

3 building where we were headed to.

4 Q. All right. And about what time would this have been? You said it

5 was getting slightly dark or it was dusk. Do you recall about what time

6 it would have been, in light of the time of year that we're speaking

7 about?

8 A. Most probably around 9.00 or half past 9.00, or between half past

9 8.00 and half past 9.00 p.m. I can't remember exactly. It was already

10 dusk. It was getting dark, and it was that time of the year. And I don't

11 know when it gets dark at that time of year. I know it was already dusk.

12 Q. All right. After you left Colonel Beara, where did you go?

13 A. Home.

14 Q. All right. And where is your home -- where was your home at that

15 point in time back in July 1995?

16 A. It is not a house; it is an apartment, a bedsitter in an apartment

17 building at the main crossroads in Bratunac. And I've lived there all the

18 time. I still live there.

19 Q. All right. Now, where was it that you left Colonel Beara? What

20 location was it?

21 A. In front of the sentry at the gate which leads towards the

22 headquarters building. There was a sentry there, in front of that gate.

23 Q. So that would have been back at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?

24 A. No. I didn't enter the courtyard of the building where the

25 headquarters was. I was in front of the gate.

Page 9535

1 Q. Okay. Mr. Celanovic, I'm trying to just get you to tell me:

2 Where was it that you left Colonel Beara, at what location the two of you

3 were. I know that you went home. I just want to know where you parted

4 with Colonel Beara.

5 A. When we returned from the rounds that we had made, I came with him

6 to the gate which is in front of the building where the headquarters was.

7 That's what I said. And only later did I go home.

8 Q. Okay. Now, did you see Momir Nikolic after that? After meeting

9 with Colonel Beara, did you happen to run into Momir Nikolic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you report to anyone what you had seen during this stroll that

12 you had taken with Colonel Beara?

13 A. No. What I see -- what I saw the entire town saw and there was no

14 reason for me to inform anybody in particular.

15 Q. All right. Now, after going home, did you go out again that

16 night?

17 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so.

18 Q. All right. Do you know what happened to those people that --

19 those men that were in those buses and trucks?

20 A. Would you please be more precise. Are you referring to that

21 particular day?

22 Q. Okay. Mr. Celanovic --

23 A. I apologise.

24 Q. That's all right. Do you know or have you learned what happened

25 to those men that were in the buses and trucks? Just say yes or no.

Page 9536

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, could you please tell us what you know or what you've learned

3 regarding those men that were in those trucks and buses in the school, I

4 would imagine.

5 A. That they were evacuated and transported further on from Bratunac

6 to the territory under the control of Muslims.

7 Q. Mr. Celanovic, you never heard of any of those individuals being

8 executed?

9 A. I did, of course.

10 Q. Okay. Well, I just asked you what you heard -- what you learned

11 about those men, and now you just told me that they were safely evacuated

12 to the territories. So please tell us what you learned about these men

13 that were in those buses and trucks, if you know.

14 A. I learned that they had been transported and that later on many

15 people were killed. It's a well-known fact, unfortunately. These people

16 who had been in Bratunac were subsequently killed.

17 Q. Would you please tell us about what time you had learned this; the

18 month, the year.

19 A. A few days later.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. Three, four, or five days later. I don't know.

22 Q. Do you know from whom you had learned this information?

23 A. No, I don't. Slowly the whole town started talking about that;

24 the troops, the civilians, everybody.

25 Q. Okay. Now, in light of your position that you told us about early

Page 9537

1 on, were you ever asked to either participate in an investigation or to

2 question any suspects or witnesses that might have been involved in any of

3 those activities?

4 A. Nobody ever asked me to participate in any such activity. Nobody

5 was ever brought to me for interrogation about those things.

6 Q. All right. Now, did you see Colonel Beara after this -- after you

7 learned about what happened to the people?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And so I take it you never had the opportunity to contact him or

10 to speak with him and to ask him what had happened, in light of what he

11 had represented to you?

12 A. I did not have a single opportunity to talk to him. Maybe even if

13 I had had an opportunity to talk to him, I wouldn't have dared ask him

14 anything. Because I was a foot soldier, a common foot soldier, and it

15 would have been embarrassing for me to ask him about any data or details

16 in addition to the things that he had already told me.

17 Q. All right. Now I want to switch to another topic. Before I do

18 that, after the 13th, were you ever engaged in questioning anyone else,

19 any other prisoners?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Now, you say you don't remember. I'm talking about the period of

22 the 14th, the 15th, the 16th, the 17th, those days for the rest of July.

23 Do you recall whether you questioned anybody?

24 A. I do not remember that anybody was brought in on any of those

25 days.

Page 9538

1 Q. All right. Now, let me switch to this other topic, and I want to

2 ask you a couple of questions before I show you a document. After the --

3 after Dayton, could you please tell us where you were engaged work-wise.

4 A. Before Dayton, a few days before, at the request of the political

5 structures in Bratunac municipality, I was assigned to perform the tasks

6 and duties of the chief for urban planning, housing, and juridic affairs

7 of Bratunac municipality.

8 Q. All right. As part of your function would you be involved in the

9 occupation of the -- of abandoned property?

10 A. Yes. I was involved in that.

11 Q. Was there any particular legislation at that point in time that

12 controlled the occupation of property that was abandoned?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let me show you what has been marked as D170 for identification

15 purposes. If you could please look at it. We have an English

16 translation.

17 First of all, do you recognise this document, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what is this document?

20 A. This is a decree of the Government of Republika Srpska regulating

21 the temporary use of houses and office space.

22 Q. And where is it from, sir?

23 A. This is abandoned property.

24 Q. All right. This decree itself, where would one locate this

25 particular decree, assuming that it's authentic?

Page 9539

1 A. It is authentic.

2 Q. How do we know that?

3 A. It was published in the -- I know because I had the original of

4 the Official Gazette of the Serbian People in which this was published in

5 my hands.

6 Q. Okay. Now, on this particular document do you see -- is there any

7 notation that this is part of the Official Gazette of the Serbian Peoples

8 in BiH, or BH?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you please tell us what -- the date of this decree.

11 A. Friday, 31 July 1992.

12 Q. Would you please tell us whether this decree that was published -

13 and presumably in effect as of 31 July 1992 - whether it was in effect at

14 the time when you were engaged in these activities, that would be sometime

15 after Dayton, which is 1995.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. And what does this decree do, sir, just very briefly?

18 We don't need a whole legal explanation. Just a comment.

19 A. It lists the criteria under which houses and office space may be

20 allocated for temporary use to certain individuals. I'm talking about the

21 temporary use of such buildings, and the individuals have to meet certain

22 criteria.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. Also, this document prescribes the way of returning such assets to

25 the owners or the state body that owns such property.

Page 9540

1 Q. All right. Now, if we look at Article 9 in particular.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Does Article 9 provide us any guidance as to the ownership or the

4 rights of the rightful owner?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us, what does Article 9, at least in

7 part, tell us?

8 A. Article 9, paragraph 6, reads: "The temporarily allocated housing

9 shall be turned over by the family or person should the owner or tenant

10 return and should there be no space to accommodate the temporary users of

11 such space in view of the size of such accommodation."

12 Q. Thank you. Let me just ask you a hypothetical. If a Muslim

13 family were to abandon its apartment, its rightfully owned apartment, and

14 they wished to, under this decree that was passed on 31 July 1992 that was

15 still in effect after Dayton, under this decree, would that Muslim family

16 be entitled to return to and re-occupy its rightfully owned apartment?

17 A. Absolutely.

18 Q. Okay. That's it for that document.

19 Now, I just have one last document. Very quickly, prior to -- did

20 you know Colonel Blagojevic before he arrived to be -- to take up the post

21 as commander of the Bratunac Brigade?

22 A. We did not know each other that well, but I knew that he was

23 Vidoje Blagojevic, brother of my schoolmate, that he was a native of that

24 same place. I knew his mother; I knew who she was. I don't know whether

25 he knew me personally, whether he knew who I was, because we had not lived

Page 9541

1 in the same place for quite a long time.

2 Q. All right. Now, before Colonel Blagojevic, did you have -- who

3 was the commander?

4 A. Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Slavko Ognjenovic.

5 Q. Now, did you get to know him during the period of time when he was

6 the commander of the Bratunac Brigade?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, do you have a basic opinion as to his character?

9 A. Are you referring to Mr. Ognjenovic?

10 Q. That's who we're talking about, right?

11 A. With apologies to the Trial Chamber, I have to choose my words

12 very carefully when I say that he was not of a good character. And he

13 still is the same; he is a very bad man.

14 Q. During that period of time, were you ever informed of any policy

15 that he had put in place to basically make the life of the Muslim

16 population in Srebrenica so miserable so that they would leave en masse?

17 Are you aware of any such policies?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. Now, did you at any point in time participate in a

20 commission organised to review the apartment that he had occupied while he

21 was the commander?

22 A. Yes. I believe that I was the president of that commission.

23 Q. And who ordered the establishment of that commission?

24 A. I believe that it was Commander Blagojevic who ordered that.

25 Q. Would you please tell us, what were the reasons for organising

Page 9542

1 that commission?

2 A. It was very simple. That apartment had previously been used by

3 Mr. Ognjenovic, the previous commander.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. The apartment was fully furnished and the furniture belonged to

6 the brigade rather than to the commander. When he was relieved of his

7 duties, Commander Ognjenovic took most of the valuables from the

8 apartment. He didn't actually take them; he attempted to take into his

9 possession most of the valuables. When I say that, I mean he wanted to

10 steal most of the valuable furniture. Why should I spare him? I don't

11 know.

12 Q. Okay. And -- all right. So on top of being a bad person, he was

13 a thief as well, it would appear, in your opinion?

14 A. He tried. He failed. We wouldn't let him succeed.

15 Q. All right. Let me show you what has been marked as D172 for

16 identification. Just very briefly, do you recognise this document, sir?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what is this document?

19 A. This document is the order for the establishment of a commission

20 which would be tasked with making a list of the furniture in the apartment

21 and their return to the apartment. This commission was tasked with making

22 a record of all that, the apartment was to be sealed, and the key was to

23 be given to the body for security affairs. And there was a deadline by

24 which all this had to be done, and the deadline was the 5th of June, 1995.

25 Q. All right. Just one last question: You told us about the

Page 9543

1 character of the previous commander, Ognjenovic. Do you have an opinion

2 as to the character of Colonel Blagojevic when he was the commander of the

3 Bratunac Brigade?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Would you please share that with us.

6 A. In my opinion, as a man, as a human being, he was good and decent

7 and conscientious. As an officer, he was a -- an honourable officer who

8 took, as it were, parental care of all the soldiers, in contrast to the

9 previous commander.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir. I have no further questions and

11 I want to thank you for answering all my questions. Mr. Stojanovic, who

12 represents Mr. Jokic, may have some questions. The Prosecution, I'm sure,

13 will have some, and perhaps even the Judges. If you could answer their

14 questions as truthfully and honestly as you have answered mine, I would

15 most appreciate it. Thank you, sir.

16 JUDGE LIU: It's time for a break.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you also.

18 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 12.30.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to

22 this witness?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

24 Good afternoon, Mr. Celanovic.

25 Your Honours, as we have no contiguous points with the account of

Page 9544

1 this particular witness, we have no particular questions for this witness

2 today.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Shin.

5 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Shin:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Celanovic.

8 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.

9 Q. I would like to turn to these handwritten notes that you made from

10 your questioning of Resid Sinanovic and the other men. And perhaps if we

11 could turn first to the one that's been marked P476. These are your notes

12 regarding your questioning of Mr. Resid Sinanovic.

13 Now, you've taken a look at this already this morning. I'd like

14 to just draw your attention directly to a few specific areas. Just a few

15 lines down from the top you see where it says: "The army gathered in

16 Kutlici. All imaginable units and able-bodied locals, about 2.000 armed

17 men."

18 Do you see that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. And a little bit further down you see a reference to some

21 commanders who have joined them in Slatina. And there's a reference to

22 "Blagojevic with about 100 policemen." Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And a little bit further down, it says: "The column set out for

25 Slatina," and just after that, "Zulfo managed to get out towards Tuzla

Page 9545

1 with a small number of soldiers."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then a couple of the references that were brought to your

4 attention earlier this morning: Near the bottom, a reference to "1.000 to

5 1.500 armed men and about 6.000 to 7.000 others remaining in the spot

6 where the shells landed."

7 Now, my question for you is quite simple: This is not information

8 that is going to help you assess whether Resid Sinanovic is a war criminal

9 or not. In fact, you believe that he wasn't. Is that -- that's correct,

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If I could turn now to just a couple of your other notes.

13 Prosecution Exhibit 477. You see that in front of you now. Under number

14 2, the person who was apparently questioned was Munib Dedic. The last

15 point under that, it says something to the effect: "Semso crossed with

16 the group," and then a little later, "with Zulfo to Cerska."

17 Do you recall who Zulfo was in this context?

18 A. Zulfo is the right name. That is Zulfo Tursunovic, the commander

19 of the army units from Suceska, in Srebrenica, who was listed as a person

20 alleged to have committed war crimes in the village of Podrano and the

21 surrounding villages in 1993, or perhaps the end of 1992, when this

22 village was burnt down and many civilians killed.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Celanovic. My question for you is, again, quite

24 simple. Now, this information about Semso crossing with the group, or

25 about Zulfo going to Cerska, that has nothing to do with determining

Page 9546

1 whether Munib Dedic is a war criminal or not, does it?

2 A. It does have something to do with it. Do you want me to explain?

3 Q. Well, you can explain very briefly.

4 A. Munib Dedic was first identified as a person who was not a

5 suspect, was not on a known list, at least not the lists which I was

6 using. The next question was: In keeping with Mr. Beara's instruction,

7 for him to tell me if he possibly knew where were the commanders of the

8 units of Naser. Naser is the chief commander. And he told me of one of

9 these names --

10 Q. But my question for you is whether this had anything to do with

11 determining whether Munib Dedic was a war criminal. And I think you've

12 already answered that. You said he was not on any lists. That's correct,

13 isn't it?

14 A. This particular content has nothing to do with our establishing

15 whether Munib Dedic was a war criminal in itself, but what he told me

16 about the others is linked to it.

17 Q. Exactly. And I think what you're saying is that this is in line

18 with Mr. Beara's instructions to know where these other commanders of

19 units of Naser -- where they were. And thank you for that explanation.

20 Now I would like to turn to another one of these notes that you

21 took. And this is Prosecution Exhibit --

22 A. I apologise.

23 Q. -- 478. Yes, Mr. Celanovic.

24 A. I apologise.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I am addressing the Court for

Page 9547

1 leave to -- if you grant it to me, I should like to rectify something that

2 the Prosecutor has said.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Beara

5 did not task me with finding about the whereabouts of Naser's units, but

6 the whereabouts -- not even the whereabouts, but if possibly some of these

7 people were brought before me, I asked just in case, because it was not a

8 question of finding out the whereabouts of the units. As regards the

9 whereabouts of the units, this was something I found out from the

10 spontaneous accounts of the people whom I talked to, those who were

11 brought before me. So I just noted down what they said to me, I did not

12 ask them any specific questions to that effect, except perhaps asking

13 whether they maybe knew whether Naser's units were. There was no specific

14 instruction to that effect to me on the part of Mr. Beara. I apologise,

15 perhaps I misunderstood the comment of the Prosecutor.

16 MR. SHIN:

17 Q. Mr. Celanovic, thank you for your explanation.

18 MR. SHIN: If I may, Mr. President.

19 Q. But just -- now it's not on the screen anymore, but just a minute

20 ago you said you asked: Where were the commanders of units of Naser. And

21 that is a direct quote. That's what you just said a minute ago. So with

22 your explanation I'm going to continue now to this next document.

23 And in connection with what you've just said, if we look at

24 Prosecution Exhibit 478. And this has to do with notes of Mr. Hasib

25 Ibisevic.

Page 9548

1 And just to note, Mr. Celanovic, you are, of course, permitted to

2 explain, but we hope that you would focus on the specific question that's

3 before us.

4 Now, on this document you see somewhere near the bottom the

5 phrase: "A number of people wished to break through to the Drina to

6 surrender to Serbia."

7 Do you see that?

8 A. No. No, I don't. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong document.

9 Q. Does your document have the number at the top 0 -- I'm sorry at

10 the bottom, 00678845?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is kindly requested to slow down. Thank

12 you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, let me just read it for a

14 minute.

15 MR. SHIN:

16 Q. Yes, please go ahead.

17 MR. SHIN: And for the interpreters, I will slow down.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, I've read it.

19 MR. SHIN:

20 Q. So do you see now where it says: "A number of people wish to

21 break through to the Drina to surrender to Serbia"?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Now, this, of course, is a piece of information that doesn't name

24 any commanders or name any potential war criminals or anything. It's

25 simply a piece of information about a movement of a number of people,

Page 9549

1 isn't it? It's a simple question, Mr. Celanovic.

2 A. No, that's not true. Can I explain?

3 Q. Please.

4 A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you have extracted one sentence from its

5 context. It says here that a member of the soldier from the -- a member

6 from the army from December 1993 was a member of the unit of Mrki Mandzo

7 and the nicknames of Mandzic. And the Mandzics were on my list, so it was

8 sufficient for me that he mentioned this. So you could not have known

9 this, what the entire context of this whole thing was, but he did mention

10 one of those persons as having been a member of the paramilitary company,

11 a member of his units. So this second sentence cannot be commented

12 without that being brought in mind.

13 Q. Yes. And thank you for the explanation regarding that second

14 sentence about Mrki Mandzo. My question, of course, was about that last

15 one -- about that last comment, and that is the reference to the number of

16 people going towards the Drina to surrender to Serbia.

17 Now, simply that question about the number of people going to the

18 Drina to surrender to Serbia, that doesn't have anything to do with any

19 specific commander. It doesn't name a commander, does it?

20 A. Yes, it is just a spontaneous account of the person who was making

21 -- giving the statement. I never asked him the question: Are there any

22 people who want to cross over to Serbia? He himself of his own accord

23 told me what he knew about the situation in the field, that there was some

24 people wanting to surrender along a stretch of 50 kilometres. And frankly

25 speaking, the people were in fear. And I could see that half of these

Page 9550

1 statements were not true as regards the units, the strength of the units,

2 because people were in fear, so they told me these things in order to

3 avoid coming to any harm. And they couldn't have come to any harm, as far

4 as I was concerned, not from my part. So these were the persons that I

5 had identified and found out to have -- to be clean. These were the

6 circumstances under which this was done.

7 Q. Mr. Celanovic --

8 JUDGE LIU: Well -- sorry, Mr. Shin. I think really you have to

9 slow down a little bit, because the interpreters and the court reporter

10 are really having a difficult time to follow you. There's no point.

11 MR. SHIN: Okay. My apologies, Mr. President. I will certainly

12 go more slowly.

13 And my apologies too to the interpreters and the reporter as well

14 about speaking too quickly.

15 Q. Mr. Celanovic, are you aware that the movement of armed Muslim men

16 and -- armed or unarmed Muslim men from the Srebrenica enclave was the

17 subject of intelligence reports and other reports from the brigade, the

18 Bratunac Brigade, and the Drina Corps level at about the time of the 12th

19 and the 13th of July? Are you aware of that?

20 A. I know that both civilians and the troops moved through the

21 territory of the Srebrenica enclave. Those who had not surrendered, that

22 is. Now, whether the intelligence organs sent any reports and to whom, I

23 don't know that; nobody had the obligation to inform me about that, as the

24 lowest in rank, and I really had no idea.

25 Q. So when you were speaking to these people, you didn't have any

Page 9551

1 interest in where the enemy was? Is that what you're telling us?

2 A. Not in that sense. Of course I wanted to know where the enemy

3 was. But my instructions were to do a different job, and I abided by

4 those instructions, which was just to establish the identity of those

5 persons and whether possibly they were suspicious.

6 Q. Okay. Well, you've told us a couple things about what your

7 instructions were. But maybe just to move on, your explanation -- one of

8 your explanations was that this information about movements of groups of

9 people, armed or unarmed, were spontaneous statements by these people.

10 Did I understand that correctly?

11 A. Yes, you did.

12 Q. So what you're telling us all this information comes from, not

13 because you asked any questions, you who have experience in asking this

14 kind of questioning and gathering this kind of information, not because

15 you asked those questions but because these were spontaneous statements

16 from these people?

17 A. I'm sorry. Will the Court please draw the attention of the

18 interpreter to the fact that I can't manage to follow. He is speaking --

19 she is speaking too fast.

20 As far as I managed to understand the question, their statements

21 were a result of the question which I asked them, which was: Do you know

22 where the commanders of Naser's units are? Now, speaking about the --

23 their knowledge as to -- answering that particular question, whether they

24 knew or not, they would give me a spontaneous account of things, which

25 would then be reflected in my note. And the entire exchange took some 2

Page 9552

1 to 3 minutes. I hope this time I managed to be clear.

2 Q. Okay. If I could -- and I'll take this slow. If I could just

3 check if I understand that. Did you or did you not ask them where the

4 commanders of Naser's units were?

5 A. I asked them where the commanders of Naser's units were. May I

6 continue? After I identified -- established the identity of the persons

7 that I was addressing, that those were indeed the persons that I was to

8 question, I would ask them what they thought -- only after having

9 established that I asked them what they thought about the situation in the

10 field and whether they knew where Naser's units were. But only after I

11 would establish that they -- the persons in question were clean and were

12 not alleged to have done anything, only after that was established, in

13 fact, I would proceed to ask them whether they knew where these units

14 were. And I would ask them nothing more. And then after they gave me

15 their answer, I would tell them: Okay. You're free to go. I have

16 nothing more to ask you. And this was my attitude toward all of them.

17 And Mr. Sinanovic was a slight exception, because I told you he was

18 already on the list as a person alleged to have done something. But as I

19 also already explained, it was clear that that was not the case, that he

20 was being treated as such on the basis of a couple of statements of some

21 old lady who no longer had her senses about her.

22 I apologise for talking too much and trying to clarify this

23 procedure, my actions, what it was that I asked of these people to tell

24 me, and that is why I am a bit verbose.

25 Q. Okay. So after you established their identity, then you asked

Page 9553

1 them where the units were. Is that correct?

2 A. Sorry. I have to rectify -- correct you again. I didn't ask them

3 where the units were but where the commanders of the unit were. Because

4 they could have -- the units were not the suspicious thing, but the people

5 on the list, the commanders of the units, and the question always referred

6 to them, where were the commanders of Naser's units, and not where the

7 units were. And then they would start to spontaneously respond to my

8 question the way they saw it. I could not be as precise as perhaps as

9 today in this court. It was just an ordinary question, and I just asked

10 them to tell me what they knew without an interruption, without any

11 additional questions. And I know -- I knew, believe me, I knew that those

12 people were in fear of what lays in store for them. And I knew that

13 perhaps half of the things which they were saying were not true, but just

14 were statements made in fear so that I did not set a great store by either

15 the figures or the facts which they gave me to, precisely only to that.

16 Of course they had no reason to fear me. I was very correct in

17 treating them, but they came there already afraid, which was only natural,

18 given the circumstances, I believe.

19 Q. Mr. Celanovic, apart from on this day when you questioned Resid

20 Sinanovic and these other men, apart from these notes that we've looked

21 at, were there other people who were brought before you in front of the

22 Bratunac Brigade to be questioned by you?

23 A. I do not remember that anybody else was brought. I remember these

24 people because of Resid and this entire group because of the circumstances

25 which require of me to try and remember everything that had transpired

Page 9554

1 particularly in that connection.

2 Q. Now, you knew that there were people being held in the Vuk

3 Karadzic school. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In fact, you knew that there were -- there were hundreds being

6 held there. Correct?

7 A. I assumed that there were hundreds.

8 Q. Well, you told -- you told the police in the Republika Srpska in

9 August of 2003 in your statement that there were hundreds in that school

10 at that time. Do you recall that? We can refer to that, if that would

11 help you.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So you recall that, then?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, just for one point of clarification, there's been a -- been

16 reference to a reception centre for these men who were being detained and

17 also a school. And we know about the Vuk Karadzic school. We're talking

18 now about the building, all those terms are used to identify the building

19 in July 1995 that was known as the Vuk Karadzic school. That's correct,

20 isn't it?

21 A. Yes. The reception centre, the school, it's all the same. To my

22 mind the school was the reception centre for the people who had

23 surrendered, who were brought in. There was no other facility, or at

24 least I was not aware of any such facility.

25 Q. Okay. Now, are you aware that in May of 1992 that school was also

Page 9555

1 used as a place for detention of Muslims from Bratunac?

2 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

3 Q. And were you aware that a number of people, a number of Muslims,

4 were killed at that time at that school?

5 A. I heard that.

6 Q. Do you think -- did it occur to you when these men came to be

7 questioned by you and when they knew they were going to that school, do

8 you think that might have caused them any fear or concern, knowing the

9 history of that place in 1992?

10 A. I don't know how they felt, whether they were afraid or not. But

11 I knew that while they were by me they did not have anything to fear

12 because I treated them correctly. I don't know whether they were afraid

13 of anything that might happen after they left me.

14 Q. Now, these hundreds of men in the Vuk Karadzic school, did you go

15 and question any of them to determine whether any of them were war

16 criminals?

17 A. No. This would not have made any sense. It would have been

18 pointless. May I explain?

19 Q. Certainly.

20 A. The instruction or the order to me was to interrogate just those

21 people that were brought to the police building, if they were indeed

22 brought in. This group consisting of six or seven people, whose notes I

23 have in front of me, was brought not for me to interrogate them, but this

24 group of soldiers stopped by the building to ask where the school was.

25 Then I introduced myself and I explained what my role was to these

Page 9556

1 soldiers. And then when I realised what was going on, it would have been

2 pointless for me to try and establish the identity of the people who were

3 brought to me by pure chance. And at the same time hundreds and thousands

4 of people were brought to a different place and nobody interrogated them.

5 This would have been a very random way of doing things, so I did not go

6 and interrogate anybody because it would have been pointless. Such a

7 procedure on my part would have been absurd and unnecessary. It never

8 occurred to me to engage in an activity like that.

9 Hundreds and thousands of people passed through with any --

10 without any control. Why would I choose just a few to establish their

11 identity and interrogate them whilst all the others passed through

12 unidentified?

13 Q. Well, Mr. Celanovic, you've mentioned now hundreds and thousands

14 of people being brought to other -- to a different place or different

15 places and being detained. Did it occur to you that perhaps you could

16 have gotten a list of these people, their names?

17 A. I mentioned hundreds or maybe thousands. This is my assumption.

18 Later on I learned that several thousands of Muslims were killed. I said

19 hundreds or thousands. But what happened in Bratunac, in the school, I

20 could see people on the windows from the street. I could see empty

21 vehicles in front of the school from which people were taken to the

22 school. And as just a normal individual, I could make an assessment as to

23 how many people could fit in the school, how many vehicles were in the

24 streets. So I could tell, based on that, that there were several hundreds

25 at the moment when I was observing the situation. When I said "hundreds

Page 9557

1 or thousands," I only learned later on -- everybody knows today how many

2 went missing. That's why I said hundreds or thousands.

3 Secondly, how can a person in the course of such a day identify so

4 many people and make a sensible list out of that? It would have been

5 physically impossible. And I did not have any such instruction as to

6 maybe leave my office or the premises and go and interview all these

7 Muslims in order to make some sort of a list.

8 I hope I've made myself clear with that.

9 Q. So, Mr. Celanovic, were you aware of any list of people being

10 detained anywhere?

11 A. Again, can you please slow down. Can you please repeat the

12 question. I didn't understand the question, and please slow down.

13 Q. Okay. I will speak very slowly. The question was actually quite

14 brief. Do you know whether there was any list of any of these Muslim

15 detainees at that time? Around the 13th of July, did such a list exist,

16 to your knowledge?

17 A. No. I have no knowledge of any such list or lists.

18 Q. Now, apart from your questioning of Mr. Resid Sinanovic, your

19 friend, and these other men, were you aware of any other interviews being

20 conducted to determine whether any of these detainees were war criminals?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So you -- my next question you may have indirectly answered

23 previously, but just so we're clear: At some point you decided that it

24 wasn't worthwhile for you to try to determine whether any particular

25 Muslim detainee was a war criminal or not. Right?

Page 9558

1 A. Right.

2 Q. And I think you have explained - please correct me if I'm wrong -

3 one of the reasons was because you knew -- or to the best of your

4 knowledge, nobody was checking -- nobody was doing anything similar,

5 nobody was checking any of these detainees to see if they were war

6 criminals?

7 A. I didn't say that I knew that nobody was checking. I didn't know

8 if anybody was checking. I didn't know that. I didn't know for a fact

9 that nobody was checking. I said I didn't know if it was checked. Now,

10 the decision that I made, at one point after these people left for the

11 school, I made a break, I went to my apartment to change my clothes

12 because it was very hot. On my way back in that street I was close to the

13 baker's, and I saw what I saw. And after that I decided it was pointless,

14 even if somebody was brought to me to continue interrogating them, because

15 I realised that there were too many people for all of them to be

16 identified. I was not aware of anybody who would have had a similar order

17 or instruction. And that's when I decided that this was beside the point,

18 that it didn't make any sense for me to continue doing that, even if

19 people were brought in. And luckily enough, nobody was brought to me on

20 that day in that sense.

21 Q. So, as you just explained to us, there were too many people even

22 to identify them?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. It's been -- first of all, it's been

24 asked and answered. And now he's trying to fit the, you know, the square

25 peg into the round hole so he can make his closing argument. He's not

Page 9559

1 being fair with the gentleman. But in any event, I stick to my previous

2 remark: It's been asked and it's been answered.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Shin, I think you've made your point

4 already.

5 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE LIU: Shall we move on?

7 MR. SHIN: Very well. I will move on.

8 Q. Did you tell Mr. Beara that you thought it didn't make any sense,

9 that it was absurd to try to interview people as he had told you to

10 regarding the identity of war criminals?

11 A. No. He never asked me anything about that. He just asked me a

12 general question: Did you do anything today? I told him: Yes, there

13 were a few people. And then he said: Okay, kiddo, let's move on. That's

14 the way he used to address me. He didn't expect any such information from

15 me.

16 Q. Okay. I'd like to move on to -- I'm sorry. Thank you for that

17 answer. I'd like to just move on to the next point now. When these

18 people were brought to you, both -- I'm sorry, these five or six people

19 that you questioned, when they were brought to you in front of your

20 office, one of the soldiers who brought them, maybe one or more of them,

21 asked the military police where the school was. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes. They asked everybody. There were a few soldiers who did not

23 belong to the military police, one or two of them, and there were maybe

24 three military policemen there.

25 Q. And these few soldiers they asked who were not part of the

Page 9560

1 military police, they were with the Bratunac Brigade, were they not?

2 A. Obviously not.

3 Q. Okay. Maybe we misunderstood each other, but you're talking about

4 the people who are asking where the school was, correct, when you say that

5 they're obviously not from the Bratunac Brigade.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So my question is just this: Someone from the military police

8 then explained to them where the school was. Correct?

9 A. Somebody explained to them where the school was. I can't remember

10 who it was who said to those soldiers that the school was down the road.

11 Somebody did say that, I don't remember who that was, but there's

12 something I told them. And if you want me to, I can tell you what I told

13 them.

14 Q. If you could briefly, please go ahead, Mr. Celanovic.

15 A. Very briefly. I said to these lads what my task was, what my role

16 was. They just happened to be there, and I told them that I should ask

17 for these people's IDs, and they agreed to that. I told them that in my

18 office at that time there was another person, Resid Sinanovic namely, and

19 I asked them that after my conversation with these people that they had

20 brought in, that they should leave some time for my colleague who was in

21 the office and to escort him to the school as well. And they said okay,

22 and that's exactly what happened later on.

23 Q. My question was just about who had given them the directions.

24 Now, do you remember telling the Republika Srpska police in your August of

25 2003 interview that it was one of the military police who explained where

Page 9561

1 the school was?

2 A. I believe that this was somebody from the military police, but I

3 don't know his name. I was under the impression that you wanted me to

4 tell you the name, and I don't remember the name. There were two or three

5 military policemen, and there was no reason for me to remember any of

6 their names. We were talking at cross-purposes. I thought you were

7 asking me about the name of the person who told them where the school was.

8 Well, the -- all three of them were talking at the same time. They were

9 pointing towards the school with their hands, and it was very difficult

10 for me to be sure of who it was that provided these soldiers with the

11 information.

12 Q. Since we perhaps misunderstood each other, let me be very clear:

13 It was someone from the military police -- the Bratunac Brigade military

14 police - not the name, but someone from the military police - who told

15 these men where the school was. Is that correct? Not the name now --

16 A. I'm not absolutely sure. Somebody said that, and I believe that

17 he was a member of the military police of the Bratunac Brigade. Despite

18 all my wishes, I cannot be sure of that, and I can't tell you with

19 certainty something that I'm not sure of.

20 Q. Now, did you see -- as they left, did you see that these men

21 brought these five or six detainees to the school, or was that something

22 you couldn't see from where you were?

23 A. I could see that the vehicle carrying these people went towards

24 the main road, the Gavrilo Princip road, as it is known today, and that it

25 started driving to the right looking from where I was observing. I was

Page 9562

1 standing on the stairway with my back turned towards the military police

2 building. This right-hand side road leads towards the bus station and on

3 towards the elementary school. My further view was obstructed by the

4 houses, by the trees.

5 Q. These soldiers came back to where your office was, or right in

6 front of your office, about five or ten minutes later but without their

7 detainees. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes. And not all the soldiers came back. Two or three returned,

9 and one of them told me that they are here to assist the military police.

10 And I didn't comment upon that. They just told me that they were here to

11 provide assistance to the military police, if that would be necessary.

12 Q. Do you recall if they said something else about what the nature of

13 that assistance would be or was?

14 A. Nothing.

15 Q. Do you recall telling the police of the Republika Srpska in August

16 of 2003 what that -- what the nature of that assistance was?

17 A. It may have been my assumption. Since they had this vehicle, I

18 assumed that they would provide assistance with the transportation. I

19 don't know what other assistance could they have provided. They had a

20 vehicle, and that's what -- the way I understood their sentence or two

21 sentences that they said to me.

22 Q. Mr. Celanovic, when you gave the statement to the RS police in

23 August of 2003, they cautioned you to tell the truth, correct, the police?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. They cautioned you not to leave out any information, correct? And

Page 9563

1 as a lawyer you may be familiar with these cautions in your system.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. They cautioned you that there could be a criminal penalty for any

4 false testimony, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. They told you that this was in connection with an investigation

7 into Srebrenica in 1995, and that's a serious investigation. Isn't that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... circumstances as a lawyer, or

11 perhaps as anyone, you would want to be as accurate and complete as

12 possible, wouldn't you?

13 A. Yes. As accurate as possible.

14 Q. So I'm going to read to you -- and if you would like to see it,

15 just please let me know, I'm happy to put that in front of you as well --

16 what -- I'm sorry. Just one minute, please, with your indulgence.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: If the gentleman could be provided with a copy of

18 his statement, I think that would be correct.

19 MR. SHIN: I'm happy to do that. This is a document marked

20 Prosecution Exhibit 859/A for the English version and B for the Serbian

21 version.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Shin, please bear in mind that you are being

23 interpreted into two languages and the interpreters do not have a copy of

24 what you are reading.

25 MR. SHIN: My apologies to the interpreters not for getting this

Page 9564

1 to them earlier. It is a very brief sentence and I will read very slowly.

2 Q. Mr. Celanovic, I would like to direct you to the very last page of

3 that statement. First of all, do you recognise this as the record of the

4 statement that you gave in August 2003?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you see your name and signature at the bottom. Is that your

7 signature?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, the sentence I would like to direct you to --

10 MR. SHIN: Sorry, just one minute, with your indulgence, Your

11 Honours. I'm sorry, it's -- I had the wrong page there.

12 Q. If you could turn to what is page -- the second page in which your

13 statement is written, and that constitutes the fourth page from the very

14 beginning. Now, two-thirds of the way down this page and just above that

15 paragraph break where there is a blank space, and in the Serbian version

16 you'll see that the sentence I'm referring to begins [B/C/S spoken].

17 And I'll read in the English: "The soldiers took the group and

18 put them in the school. In about five or ten minutes" -- sorry. I'll go

19 slowly. "In about five or ten minutes they came back to the military

20 police building and said that they had been ordered to assist the military

21 police of the Bratunac Brigade for similar cases since they now knew where

22 the reception centre was and they had a vehicle for that purpose."

23 Do you see that sentence -- I'm sorry, those two sentences?

24 A. All right.

25 Q. So when you gave that statement, trying to be as accurate and

Page 9565

1 complete as possible, that's what you told the RS police what these

2 soldiers with the truck had told you. Is that correct?

3 A. Probably.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Celanovic, just moving on a little, you had said earlier

5 that I believe - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that you did not

6 recognise anyone from the Bratunac Brigade in front of the Vuk Karadzic

7 school. Is that right, or have I gotten that wrong?

8 A. I didn't recognise anybody from the Bratunac Brigade in front of

9 the Vuk Karadzic school. Nobody whose name I would know, but judging by

10 the uniforms that I saw at a distance of 50 to 60 metres, I believed that

11 they belonged to the Bratunac Brigade. I recognised the cheap, thin,

12 camouflage uniforms, unlike the uniforms that I saw on the lads that were

13 standing guard in front of the school itself. It was different. It was

14 of the kind that only American troops have. It was dusk, and it was very

15 difficult for me to say that I saw certain individuals whom I knew, but I

16 believed that they were members of the Bratunac Brigade, judging by

17 nothing else but their uniforms that I saw at a distance. That is what I

18 saw in the evening.

19 Q. And so you believe -- just to be clear, you believe that the

20 persons that you saw in front of the school were members of the Bratunac

21 Brigade. Is that what you said?

22 A. Some of the persons, not in front of the school but in this short

23 street and at the end of the street which leads towards the school. So

24 it's a little bit further on, next to the municipality building which

25 housed the archives. I don't know whether you have referred to this

Page 9566

1 particular building at all so far, but I'm trying to be precise in

2 explaining this. So to the right-hand side observed in the direction of

3 the school, this is where I could see them. I wasn't paying too much

4 attention really. Had I known that I would be taking the stand here

5 today, I would have made it my business to indeed remember.

6 Q. And when you referred to that short street where you saw some

7 members of the Bratunac Brigade, that's the street along which the buses

8 and trucks were parked. Is that correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Mr. Celanovic, just to make it simple, have you heard -- maybe you

11 didn't see at that time, but did you hear later that there were Bratunac

12 Brigade military police guarding the Vuk Karadzic school on that day -- on

13 that evening?

14 A. I heard that some of them performed that duty as well. As to how

15 many there were, when this was, I don't know this. I only heard later

16 that some of them had secured the building. I don't know which of these

17 lads they were. This is something that I heard only later in informal

18 exchanges.

19 Q. Do you recall who told you that, even informally?

20 A. No. No. These were just leisurely talks which were a long time

21 after these events had happened.

22 Q. Did you hear anything, either that evening or the next morning,

23 about bodies, 50 bodies, of Muslims being found at that Vuk Karadzic

24 school or in one of the buildings right behind it?

25 A. I didn't hear anything about that. I hear it for the first time,

Page 9567

1 that bodies were found either in the school or around the school.

2 Q. So you never heard that there were people killed at that school

3 either on the 12th or the 13th or the 14th?

4 A. Never.

5 Q. Now, are you aware -- are you aware that there were Bratunac

6 Brigade -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that.

7 Mr. Celanovic, you were aware that the Bratunac Brigade military

8 police escorted these buses and trucks to Zvornik, these buses and trucks

9 that were full of men in the streets of Bratunac that night. Isn't that

10 correct?

11 A. I heard that they escorted them from my conversations with

12 military policemen, but I didn't see. So I heard from them that they had

13 been also among those who were escorted -- among those who escorted the

14 convoy were also members of the Bratunac military police brigade. And I

15 believe ...

16 Q. And when you say your conversations with military policemen, you

17 mean military policemen from the Bratunac Brigade. Is that correct?

18 A. I don't know in what context this particular question was asked.

19 Can I have a more precise formulation of the question? What particular

20 conversation are we referring to? The informal conversation that I

21 referred to?

22 Q. Actually, I mean the conversation that you just talked about, the

23 conversation with military policemen who told you that there were Bratunac

24 Brigade military policemen who escorted these buses and trucks to Zvornik.

25 Now, you had that conversation with military policemen, you said, and I

Page 9568

1 just wanted to clarify that those are Bratunac Brigade military policemen.

2 You nodded. If you could please say yes or no into the

3 microphone, please.

4 A. Yes. This is all right. Yes, these were military police of the

5 -- military police of the -- Bratunac Brigade military police.

6 Q. Now, I'd like to turn back briefly to a conversation that you

7 described that you had with Colonel Beara, as you say, in which he

8 explained to you why there were buses and trucks in Bratunac that evening.

9 You told us just a few minutes ago that when you were trying to assess how

10 many people there were in the Vuk Karadzic school, you saw the empty

11 vehicles in front of the Vuk Karadzic school, the vehicles which you

12 believed these men were -- had been brought on. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes. There were several vehicles that I saw, but there were also

14 others that I didn't see. We are not talking about the same street here,

15 are we? Could you please be more precise. I don't mind drawing you a

16 sketch to show you what street we are talking about. There was a street

17 full of buses and other vehicles with people on them. And there is a

18 small street leading towards the municipality on the right. There is one

19 to the left, towards the stadium and towards Suha settlement. There are

20 two streets. There were a few empty vehicles in the street on the left

21 which leads by the stadium. And I saw two or three vehicles that could be

22 seen from where I was standing. Since the street is sloping, there may

23 have been more. And before that, I saw a longer street full of vehicles.

24 And from the market, I also could see that around the stadium and in the

25 stadium there were vehicles full of people; that's what I'm talking about.

Page 9569

1 I'm trying to be as precise as possible here, as much as I can, as much as

2 my memory serves me.

3 Q. And we do understand that, Mr. Celanovic. If I could make the

4 question very simple, and I think you have explained that in your answer

5 just now; you did see some empty vehicles in the street. And let's set

6 aside the question now of where exactly they were.

7 A. Was that a question?

8 Q. Yes, it was.

9 A. I've just explained where they were. In that street on the left,

10 at the crossroads. Why don't you give me a piece of paper. I'd like to

11 draw it to you. I can't explain. As I'm facing the school, there is a

12 street which leads to the gate of the school. And on the left from that

13 place there is a street which leads by the stadium, and on the right there

14 is a short street leading towards the municipality building. In the

15 street on the left I saw two, three, four -- I can't be more precise than

16 that, I didn't count the vehicles. That's how many vehicles I saw. But

17 since the street is sloping, I can assume that there were more streets [as

18 interpreted] towards the bottom of the road. I was standing there for a

19 minute and then I returned.

20 But there is another fact, and the fact is that I saw many more

21 vehicles in a different place and that I could see people on the windows

22 of the school. That is another fact. And that's where I saw a lot of

23 vehicles that I couldn't count.

24 But having seen all of these vehicles and knowing how many

25 classrooms there are, if you can do your maths you can calculate how many

Page 9570

1 people fit in the school. I know exactly how big the schoolrooms are, and

2 any layman by doing their maths could tell you how many people there were

3 in the school. At the moment when I was observing the situation, I

4 believe there were several hundreds of people in the school plus the

5 people in the vehicles that I've just mentioned. I really don't see how I

6 can explain it in any different way. I can't give you the precise number

7 either. The fact is that I've given you the essence of what I saw. I

8 really don't know what other details or precisions you want from me. If

9 you can be more precise in your questions, I will answer. Your questions

10 start to tire me, really. I apologise.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I think the question put to you is very

12 simple. That is: Did you see some empty vehicles in the street? It's a

13 very, very simple question.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I explained in very

15 simple words that I saw three or four empty vehicles.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 You may proceed.

18 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Celanovic.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Trial Chamber.

21 MR. SHIN:

22 Q. Now, do you recall your conversation with Mr. Beara where he told

23 you why it was that these buses and trucks with men on them could not

24 leave, or why they were staying in Bratunac? Do you remember that? Just,

25 please, yes or no on that question.

Page 9571

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And he explained to you that they were waiting because there was a

3 re-organisation of transportation because there were too many people on

4 some or more than some of the buses and trucks. Do you remember that?

5 Just, please, yes or no unless I've made something significantly wrong

6 here.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, did that explanation make sense to you, in light of the empty

9 buses that you saw?

10 A. Absolutely.

11 Q. Mr. Celanovic, there's no reason why some of those buses couldn't

12 have gone to Kladanj, is there? Some or maybe all of them?

13 A. There's no reason why they should not have gone to Kladanj. They

14 could have gone to Kladanj if such a decision had been made.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, I'm not sure, but this may be a good

17 place to break.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, could I ask, how long are you going to do your

19 cross-examination for tomorrow?

20 MR. SHIN: I would hope for no more than 20 minutes or so, I would

21 hope.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you.

23 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid that we have to break now, and we'll

25 continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. The hearing for today is adjourned.

Page 9572

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

2 at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

3 the 20th day of May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.