1 Tuesday, 1 June 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number
7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
9 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'm very sorry to say that
10 Judge Vassylenko won't be able to join us this afternoon, so the remaining
11 Judges decided to proceed without him in accordance with the Rule 15(B).
12 Before we have the witness, are there any matters the parties
13 would like to raise? Yes. Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Obviously we're a
15 little disappointed that Judge Vassylenko can't be here, but we do
16 understand. The one matter that I did want to bring up was with respect
17 to not this witness, but the following witness. I understand he has high
18 blood pressure or something of that sort. Don't we all? And as I
19 understand it that the Trial Chamber has made a decision that granting his
20 wish to appear via videolink instead of here in person.
21 First, let me just express my disappointment, not that it's worth
22 a whole lot these days, but nonetheless I'm disappointed. Secondly, I
23 think the doctor's paper is worth about 25 to 50 euros, which is what it
24 would cost in Bosnia to purchase such a document from a doctor saying that
25 he cannot travel. Third, the gentleman was able to travel and meet with
1 the Prosecution not too long ago, so obviously when it's to his
2 convenience, he can make it here. Fourth, because of the enormous amount
3 of material that we wanted to go through and because the witness may very
4 well not be declared a hostile witness on direct examination and because
5 of the nature of the material, not to mention that we also recently
6 received some additional material from the Prosecution with respect to
7 what this witness had provided them as late -- or as early, I should say,
8 2002 through his lawyer, I am unwilling to relinquish I should say my
9 position, my earlier position, of insisting that the gentleman appear here
10 in court, recognising of course that the ultimate decision is with the
11 Trial Chamber. But, you know, sometimes one has to make a decision; I've
12 made my decision. And of course if the Trial Chamber feels there's no
13 other way, then the Trial Chamber can decide on its own to drop this
14 witness as a result of the counsel's unwillingness to entertain another
15 form of this gentleman testifying.
16 Now, having said that, it's our understanding that this particular
17 witness has entered into some sort of an agreement with the Jokic Defence
18 team, where they are willing to allow this gentleman to appear viva voce
19 for this limited purpose of him saying on this particular day what he saw
20 and what he heard. I don't want to go into the particulars, but
21 nonetheless it would appear that this gentleman would be called as a
22 Defence witness in the Jokic team, in which case I would be entitled then
23 to cross-examine the gentleman. And in light of the logistics and in
24 light of the time frame that we have, and so as not to disturb anything,
25 what we would be doing is I would be asking for leave from the
1 Trial Chamber to appear at the location where the gentleman would be
2 sitting at testifying, so at least I could confront him eye to eye as I
3 cross-examine him and give him documents. So in other words if he is
4 going to be testifying via videolink, I would asking that I am present at
5 that location. And of course everybody here can watch me from afar. So
6 that would be my decision, Your Honour.
7 Now, in light of that, we heard a message late Friday. So it was
8 very difficult for us to make any other adjustments, though I have tried
9 to make some adjustments to get some other witnesses. We will have a
10 witness for Friday. This witness that we're about to hear will go into
11 tomorrow, I would suspect, easily. I have lots of documents. So there is
12 a likelihood that we will have a day free, that is around Thursday,
13 because I don't know if I can get anybody else. I have been working on
14 that all morning. So in any event, I just wanted to bring the Court up to
15 speed on that, and of course again reiterate my deep -- I don't want to
16 say dissatisfaction, but disappointment I would say with the Court's
17 decision to allow this gentleman through this piece of paper to suggest
18 that he cannot travel. But that's all I have, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
20 Any comments from the Prosecution's side?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is the first I hear of any of this. We were
22 getting prepared to cross-examine (Redacted), so I take it he's -- none of
23 this is going to happen this week, I imagine, given that there's a lot of
24 logistics involved in such things. I would prefer to have a live witness
25 as well, but do I understand he is coming live for the Jokic -- no. Okay.
1 Well, in any event I don't really think the Prosecution is involved in
2 this, though I would prefer to have a witness live as well. And -- but I
3 have no knowledge or anything about his health, though he was here and
4 looked pretty healthy when I saw him a while back.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. I believe that the
6 Trial Chamber has done it's utmost the most to try to ask this witness to
7 come here, and even at the end of last week the chief of the witness and
8 victim's protection unit got in touch with this witness and tried to
9 persuade him to come here. But I'm very sorry to say that the effort has
10 got no result. So I believe at this moment the most feasible way to hear
11 this witness is to have the videolink or we just simply drop it off. And
12 I'm not quite sure whether Mr. Karnavas could be on the spot during the
13 videolink sessions. At least it's something new with me since I came to
14 this Tribunal for four years already. But any innovative suggestions are
15 worthy for consideration, and certainly we'll consider this suggestion and
16 to see whether it's feasible or not.
17 And this is also my first time to hear that this witness will
18 testify in the Jokic case. I believe when we have more than one accused
19 in one case, the Defence counsels are encouraged to have a combined
20 witness, which means we don't have to call this witness twice for the
21 different accused. So I hope after Court the parties will consult with
22 each other on this matter and to see whether we have done -- we have to do
23 it at this stage by the videolink or wait until the later stage, if there
24 is a possibility for him to appear live.
25 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, again, I'm not a medical doctor, but I would
2 hope that the Court would reconsider, just because the person has -- one,
3 he is reluctant to come here. I understand that. Who wants to be here as
4 a witness? Number two, we have the power of subpoena. Number three, I
5 think a witness simply getting a piece of paper, saying I have high blood
6 pressure and that being an excuse for not coming over here, that to me is
7 a way of getting around the system, and I think it sends perhaps the wrong
8 message. Also, what if the man has to be indicted at some point, can he
9 show this piece of paper and say, "Well, I guess he can't come and be a
10 guest at the UN Detention Centre because he's got high blood pressure." I
11 don't think there's sufficient grounds for this gentleman not getting on a
12 plane and coming here, especially when he predicted this illness when I
13 broached him the first time. He predicted he was going to be ill, so I
14 guess he's clairvoyant as well.
15 With respect to the joint witnesses, Mr. Stojanovic wasn't here at
16 the time but Mr. Lukic was here at the Status Conference when we began the
17 Defence -- prior to the beginning of the Defence case where this issue of
18 videolink had come up and Mr. Lukic had represented to the Trial Chamber
19 that they were going to be questioning (Redacted) on a very limited nature.
20 Of course we anticipated that that would be coming in through the
21 cross-examination so he wouldn't called twice. From a tactical
22 standpoint, since I'm going to have him by videolink, as it would appear,
23 against my wishes, might I add, I don't want to be conducting a direct
24 examination of a witness who potentially might be hostile, not knowing
25 whether the Trial Chamber will grant me that status of the witness being
1 hostile, number one, so I have to control a very difficult witness on
2 direct examination where I don't have the power of using closed-ended
3 questions; that's number one. Number two, we have a lot of documents, so
4 I don't know how I can physically manage to confront the witness with
5 documents because I'm dealing with a lawyer; Mr. Vasic is a lawyer. So
6 he's not just any kind of a witness, so that's the other thing.
7 As far as we being present, as far as I understand it, recently
8 there was a hearing. It got aborted at the last minute - it wasn't
9 completely held - of a case in Rwanda where the lawyers travelled to
10 The Hague - the witness was going to be testifying by videolink from
11 The Hague to cross-examine the witness, where the witness would be -- for
12 a case in Rwanda. So based on that, I thought the possibilities exist,
13 though I don't really understand the whole notion of videolink myself.
14 I'm not -- never done this before. But I assume that it can't be that
15 difficult having two cameras.
16 So since the Court, it would appear, has made a decision to have
17 this guy testify videolink, and since I see him as a potentially dangerous
18 witness where I need an enormous amount of control and there's going to be
19 an enormous amount of confrontation, not in the physical sense, but in the
20 spirit of debating, I would prefer having him for cross-examination. And
21 because of the logistics, because of the logistics, involved, if the Jokic
22 team were to call him as their witness, then I would be afforded my right
23 to cross-examination. So from a tactical standpoint it makes more sense
24 for me to have him on cross-examination than on direct examination at this
25 stage; that's number one. And number two, I would be asking for leave to
1 go into Bosnia, wherever the videolink is, and it may cause some
2 disruption in the Court's calendar. Whereas if it's done during the Jokic
3 Defence, I could arrange that ahead of time, so there's no delay on the
4 part of me being there, I can arrange that. I don't know if I'm making a
5 lot of sense, but in essence I've thought about this somewhat. But
6 frankly, we could put him on the plane tomorrow, and he could be here and
7 I think that solves everything. I'll be soft on him.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think your statement is
9 registered in the transcript.
10 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic -- by the way, before I give the floor to
11 Mr. Stojanovic, could I know whether this witness is a protected witness
12 or not.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Which one?
14 JUDGE LIU: The one you mentioned just now.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: As far as I understand it, he's not a protected
16 witness. This gentleman has been contacting the Prosecution, he's been
17 talking. All I know is he is a witness who doesn't want to come here and
18 testify and has made it abundantly clear that he does not wish to come
19 here at all, under any circumstances. That's all I know.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go into private session just for a
22 second, just out of an abundance of caution.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session.
24 [Private session]
12 Page 10061 – redacted – private session.
12 Page 10062 – redacted – private session.
12 Page 10063 – redacted – private session.
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, good afternoon, Witness.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
16 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS DP-105
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Judge Argibay. Good
1 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:
2 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. If I could have the assistance of the usher here for one second.
5 Let me show you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit D187/1.
6 Could you please look at it and see -- tell us if that is your name.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
9 Now, sir, could you please tell us whether you were a member of
10 the Bratunac Brigade on July 1995.
11 A. Yes.
1 Q. Would you please tell us what your military educational background
3 A. I completed military secondary school and military academy, major
4 course artillery.
5 Q. All right. How many years of education do you actually have?
6 A. That's eight years of education, military education.
7 Q. All right. And currently where are you serving?
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, should we go to private session?
9 MR. KARNAVAS: I thought we were in private session.
10 JUDGE LIU: No.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: We're not?
12 JUDGE LIU: We'll just have those places redacted.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Oh.
14 JUDGE LIU: It's all right. We'll go to private session.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: I assumed that we were.
16 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 MR. KARNAVAS:
9 Q. All right. Now, could you please -- I want to focus your
10 attention to the period surrounding the fall of Srebrenica, and I'm going
11 to give you two dates as reference points, one being July 6th, 1995, the
12 day when the activities commenced, and July 11th, 1995, the day when we
13 know Srebrenica fell. Could you please tell us prior to whether you, in
14 your position, had been given any particular instructions concerning the
15 events that were about to ensue.
16 A. No.
17 Q. All right. Now, the positions where the men were at, how long had
18 they been at those actual positions?
19 A. They had been at these positions for a number of years.
20 Q. All right. Now, in light of the activities that were about to
21 occur, were you and your men given any tasks to move your positions,
22 advance forward, and perhaps capture any enemy territory?
23 A. No, we weren't.
24 Q. Very briefly, if you could tell us, from July 6th to July 11th, in
25 light of your position, do you recall what activities occurred concerning
1 your position and your men.
2 A. We had information -- intelligence information at the time, much
3 before the 6th of July indicating that the enemy was planning to attack
4 our positions and to carry out a breakthrough towards Tuzla. For that
5 purpose, the combat readiness was raised at a very high level, and that is
6 how we understood this task at hand. And we took it very seriously and
7 acted accordingly.
8 Q. Okay. First of all, may I ask you to explain to us, when you say
9 "combat readiness," what does that mean?
10 A. That means that any leave of soldiers from the lines were banned.
11 That also means that we had to capture a forward command post. That also
12 means to carry out more frequent supervision of the condition of units.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. And some other activities, for instance, engineering works on
15 fortifications, organisation of firing position systems, et cetera.
16 Q. Now, the translation here says that you had to "capture a forward
17 command post." Did I hear you right?
18 A. That activity was often undertaken in order to be more successful
19 in commanding. These forward command posts were usually within the combat
20 disposition, and that is at the very front line in most cases.
21 Q. All right. So are you -- well, I just want to make sure I
22 understand you correctly. Are you trying to capture a forward command
23 post in front of the enemy, or are you trying to establish a command post,
24 a forward command post?
25 A. No, that was my command post within the defence area of my
1 battalion. So that was behind -- directly behind my lines.
2 Q. All right. Did you have, incidentally, a zone of responsibility?
3 A. No. According to the rules that were in force and that we
4 observed, a battalion has its own area of defence, not a zone of
5 responsibility. I don't even know this term, "zone of responsibility."
6 Q. Now, this area of defence, could you please describe it to us.
7 What are we talking about, so we understand, we who are not in the
9 A. An area of defence is a piece of land where the battalion is
10 deployed for the purpose of defence. According to combat rules, a
11 battalion should have four forward lines, a company forward and a company
12 behind. There are some other elements of combat disposition, a command
13 post, an anti-armour group, a unit for anti-aircraft defence, et cetera.
14 But the main thing is that if we were to follow these rules, the battalion
15 should have a company on the second line on fortified positions.
16 Q. And did you have all of that at that time? Did you have a full --
17 A. No.
18 Q. Why not?
19 A. Because we had too few soldiers and a large area that we were
20 supposed to defend.
21 Q. All right. Did you have a line behind you, a second echelon line
22 of defence?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Could you please tell us, if you recall from the rules, what the
25 length and width would be of an area of defence.
1 A. An area of defence for a battalion is from 3 to 5 kilometres, that
2 is the area the battalion should cover on the first line. And in depth it
3 should go from 2 to 3 kilometres.
4 Q. All right. Now, going back to the events surrounding Srebrenica,
5 from July 6th to July 11th, did you advance your positions at any point in
6 time to capture any land?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, I want to go day by day, and if any activity occurred, stop
9 me and we'll talk about it. On the 6th do you know whether your soldiers
10 were involved in any activities?
11 A. No, they were not, apart from those defence activities we were
12 charged with, we were supposed to carry out a so-called decisive fatal
14 Q. Okay. Now, this decisive defence, could you please explain to us
15 what that term means, what does it entail?
16 A. To put it in the simplest terms, that means the enemy under no
17 circumstances must be allowed to cross over our positions.
18 Q. And why is that?
19 A. It was estimated that by threatening or even crossing an area of
20 defence, the enemy could achieve great success in making advances into our
21 territory. And because it is believed that the area of defence is of
22 great importance.
23 Q. All right. Now, on the 7th of July, do you recall whether there
24 was any battle activity?
25 A. During those days, we were faced with frequent provocations by the
1 enemy, meaning that the enemy was firing at our positions from different
2 positions and different areas.
3 Q. And was there a response to this, to these acts of provocation or
5 A. In certain cases, yes.
6 Q. All right. Do you know whether you were firing at soldiers,
7 whether you were firing at particularly -- at artillery equipment? What
8 exactly were the targets that you were firing at?
9 A. We fired exclusively at enemy targets, those targets which were
10 opening fire at us. As far as artillery is concerned, I didn't have much
11 and I couldn't use it.
12 Q. Now, what about the -- well, you said you didn't have much and you
13 couldn't use it. Why couldn't you use it?
14 A. Well, first of all, our combat sets and ammunition were
15 incomplete. Ammunition was very short and we had to save it because we
16 were expecting to be attacked by a brigade. That was something that we
17 expected based on the intelligence we received.
18 Q. All right. Now, you say that you would be attacked by a brigade.
19 Are we speaking about the Muslim soldiers that were within Srebrenica, or
20 are you speaking of some other brigade?
21 A. I mean primarily members of the 28th Division of the Army of
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
23 Q. All right. Now, what about the 8th of July? Was there any action
24 on that particular day, other than -- we've been talking about the
25 sporadic, occasional acts of provocation?
1 A. Not unlike what happened in the previous days, there were
2 provocations but there were no shifts of units or lines.
3 Q. Okay. Now, what about on the 8th of July -- 7th, 8th, or 9th of
4 July? Anything happen on that day, the 9th?
5 A. On that day, I tried to execute a demonstrative attack, more for
6 the purpose of forced reconnaissance, of scouting of enemy positions.
7 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go step by step on this so we all understand
8 what this term means, "demonstrative attack," and of course the purpose of
9 forced reconnaissance. First of all, what's a demonstrative attack?
10 A. Well, that is an attack which is not aimed at completely capturing
11 enemy positions. In essence, as I emphasised, it boiled down to an
12 attempt of forcible or forced reconnaissance, aimed at establishing where
13 the enemy was from a certain safe distance, at opening fire against those
14 positions, finding safe cover, and observing and noting the firing
15 positions of the enemy. So basically, it was reconnaissance.
16 Q. All right. And what was the purpose for all of that?
17 A. The purpose was to gain some knowledge as to the whereabouts of
18 the enemy, whether there were any shifts in hostile positions, what the
19 intention of the enemy were, et cetera.
20 Q. And what was the result of this demonstrative attack?
21 A. Well, unfortunately when we were moving, the commander of the
22 scouting platoon stepped on a mine and was killed. And at the same time,
23 his deputy was seriously wounded. As a result, we just went back to our
24 initial positions.
25 Q. All right. In this demonstrative attack, just so we are clear,
1 did you actually capture any enemy territory? Did you go beyond the lines
2 that you had been holding that was part of your area of defence?
3 A. We did not capture anything. We did move ahead of our lines for
4 about 100 metres maybe, 200, 300 metres.
5 Q. During this demonstrative attack, do you know whether any enemy
6 soldiers were killed?
7 A. I know none were killed.
8 Q. How do you know that?
9 A. I know because at the time I was at the observation post, the fog
10 was very thick and the only sound that could be heard was this fatal
11 explosion, fatal for my commander. And then, when I contacted that unit,
12 I gave them orders to go back to their initial position.
13 Q. All right. Just a couple of last questions on this topic. Were
14 you ordered to carry out this demonstrative attack, or was this part of
15 your own initiative, in light of your position at the time?
16 A. I was given orders.
17 Q. Could you please tell us who gave you those orders and how were
18 they received.
19 A. I got that order from the brigade commander, and it was brought to
20 me by the chief of staff in person.
21 Q. When you say it was brought to you in person, so was this a
22 written order or a verbal order?
23 A. It was a written order.
24 Q. Now, did the chief of staff remain there while you carried out
25 this demonstrative attack?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did he participate in this event?
3 A. He participated in the sense that he followed the developments.
4 Q. And of course we're talking about Mr. Pajic. Right? Major Pajic,
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, this was on the 9th of July. Could you please tell us what
8 happened, if anything, on the 10th of July.
9 A. On the 10th of July, we attended the funeral of the commander who
10 had been killed. I went briefly to that funeral. The rites were
11 relatively short. After that, I went back to my unit. There were no
12 major developments at that time that concerned us and our defence line.
13 Q. All right. Did you receive any orders on that particular day to
14 carry out any activities?
15 A. No.
16 Q. July 11th, 1995, that would be the day that Srebrenica fell. Do
17 you recall whether on that particular day you and your men did anything
19 A. No, nothing unusual.
20 Q. Did you receive any particular orders on that day?
21 A. No, apart from the order to follow the situation in the territory
22 ahead of us.
23 Q. All right. Did you -- did you or any of your men, to your
24 knowledge, go into Srebrenica on that day, that would be the 11th of July,
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you or any of your men go to Potocari on that day?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, before we move on to July 12th, which would be the day after
5 Srebrenica fell, could you please tell us whether from the 6th of July to
6 the 11th of July, whether any upper-echelon, higher-echelon, officers from
7 the Main Staff or the corps came to your positions.
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. Now, on the 12th of July, could you please tell us
10 whether you received any particular orders on that day.
11 A. On the 12th of July, I received an order to occupy the territory
12 of the Cizmici village and to establish a link with a neighbouring
13 2nd Battalion.
14 Q. All right. That's it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And -- now, we're going to go through the map at some point, but
17 first I just want to get the narration now. If you could just please tell
18 us, if you recall, what the distance would be of this movement of troops.
19 A. It's not such a great distance as the crow flies, but the terrain
20 we had to cross was very inaccessible, and there were the minefields. The
21 minefields were obviously ahead of us and we had to move slowly that day,
22 with a great deal of caution. And having set out somewhere in the
23 afternoon, we managed to take hold of that area.
24 Q. Now, during that particular day, did you come across any
25 prisoners, you or the soldiers, the units?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you come across, if you recall, any dead bodies?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. Did you come across any abandoned weapons?
5 A. Not large-calibre weapons. Maybe a soldier or two came across an
6 abandoned rifle or something like that, but there were no cannons or
7 anything like that. I don't remember seeing any of that.
8 Q. All right. On that particular day, do you recall whether you
9 observed enemy forces?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right. Did you observe a column of Muslims coming from
12 Srebrenica, for instance, heading in a particular direction? Did you
13 notice that? Now, we're talking about the 12th of July.
14 A. Not on the 12th.
15 Q. Just to be on the safe side, had you noticed, had you noticed,
16 prior to July 12th, any enemy forces on the move?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Now, we're going to go step by step. When was that?
19 A. That was in the evening of the 10th, that is, in the early evening
20 hours on the 10th of July. And on the 11th, throughout the day, you could
21 see that column.
22 Q. All right. Could you please tell us how far this column was from
23 you, what the distance would be.
24 A. At least 5, 6, maybe more, kilometres, as the crow flies, distance
25 from the first, foremost, defence line, I mean.
1 Q. And could you describe to us the terrain. What was the terrain
2 like that separated you and your men and the column that you had observed?
3 A. The terrain was rather rough, inaccessible, criss-crossed in
4 various ways by brooks and some other natural features, obstacles such as
5 forest, woods, et cetera.
6 Q. In light of this terrain, could you please tell us how you were
7 able to observe this column, especially from the distance that you've
8 indicated to us.
9 A. My forward command post was on top of a dominant feature, from
10 which one could observe using sights, optical instruments, and the naked
11 eye even, that in the area around Jaglic there was a moving column.
12 Q. And I take it you had optical instruments like binoculars?
13 A. Yes, some binoculars.
14 Q. Now, first of all, did you at any point in time attack this
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you ever ordered to attack this column?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ever advance to try to capture this column or members of
20 this column?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you inform anyone that you had seen, observed, this column of
23 men going in a particular direction, which I am sure, in light of your
24 background and experience of the terrain, knew fairly well where they were
25 heading toward?
1 A. We were reporting to the duty officer of the brigade.
2 Q. How would you or how did you report to the duty officer?
3 A. By communications.
4 Q. Okay. But you got to tell us what those communication means were,
5 because we weren't there. So what did you have?
6 A. We had telephones and field radio devices, RUP-12 and similar.
7 Q. All right. Did you have a Motorola with you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. At this point in time when you saw this column and you told us it
10 was the night of the 10th and then on the 11th, did you at any point in
11 time, to the best of your recollection, call your commander, the commander
12 of the Bratunac Brigade, to inform him of what you had seen?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is there a particular reason why you didn't call your commander?
15 A. During those days, our official communication was very poor. My
16 communications were mainly directed towards the duty officer of the
17 brigade command.
18 Q. All right. And I take it once you pass on a message, one might
19 expect that the duty officer would do something?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And just so I'm not leading you and draw an objection, what might
22 that be?
23 A. I expected him to inform officers in charge, the brigade
24 commander, and other higher-ranking officers --
25 Q. All right.
1 A. -- for the purpose of having an insight into the situation on the
3 Q. But in light of what you had seen, would it not also make sense
4 for you to contact someone like the head of intelligence and security of
5 the brigade?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Why not?
8 A. Because, and that is what the rules say, I was to communicate
9 directly only with the commander or perhaps his deputy because I was
10 directly subordinated to them.
11 Q. All right. Now, in light of the information that you had passed
12 on, did you at any point in time receive any orders as to what if
13 anything, or what if any actions you should take with respect to the
14 column that you had seen?
15 A. We received no orders whatsoever regarding the column, in terms of
16 doing anything.
17 Q. All right. Now, you told us that on the 12th you had moved your
18 positions, and I believe we had finished with the 12th. So now let's move
19 on to the 13th. Could you please tell us what, if anything, you and your
20 men did on the 13th.
21 A. My activities were focused, on the 13th of July, on linking up
22 with the 2nd Infantry Battalion.
23 Q. When you say "linking up," what are we talking about? What does
24 that mean?
25 A. That means that we had first to spot where their position was,
1 that they see us as well; that we coordinate fire, if necessary, for us to
2 defend ourselves; to exchange information, if there was any; and things
3 like that.
4 Q. And why was that necessary, the link-up? You told us what it is,
5 now tell us why. Why would that be important, if it is? I don't know.
6 A. It is important because between my battalion and the
7 2nd Battalion, there was a gap of space that under such circumstances the
8 enemy might have made use of in terms of inflicting losses on our forces.
9 Q. All right. Did you link up?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall about when? What day? What time? What place?
12 A. I personally went with some officers, and we went to the village
13 of Pale. That is where I met the commander. I think it was the
14 5th Company of the 2nd Infantry Battalion. And I remember that on that
15 particular day, we discussed the defence system established by the enemy
16 facing us, because in that particular area they had some fortified
17 features. And we managed to observe an anti-aircraft gun positioned
18 there, enemy gun, and I think there was also an anti-aircraft machine-gun.
19 That was basically what we discussed.
20 Q. All right. And what time of day would this have been?
21 A. That was on the morning of the 13th when I managed to meet them.
22 Q. All right. Now, on that day do you know whether you and the
23 others, the ones that you had linked up with, whether you were engaged in
24 any activities with the enemy forces?
25 A. On that day we didn't see any enemy forces, either individuals or
1 any major units.
2 Q. Did you see any dead bodies?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you come across any abandoned weapons?
5 A. Except this four-barrel gun, anti-aircraft gun that I mentioned
6 earlier, and an anti-aircraft machine-gun, we didn't find any other
8 Q. Now, in getting to this position on the 13th, as you've indicated
9 to link-up, having moved your positions on the 12th through the 13th, did
10 you -- were you searching the terrain?
11 A. Well, you cannot say exactly that we did that, but we did try to
12 find out what was happening in front of us, behind us, to the extent
13 possible under the circumstances.
14 Q. All right. Well, maybe you can help us out here a little bit.
15 First of all, let's try to figure out what is the manner in which one
16 would go about searching the terrain. Could you please describe that.
17 A. Well, the searching of terrain is a preventive scouring action
18 taken with the aim of having control over a territory in terms of finding
19 out whether there are any so-called remaining parts left behind by the
20 enemy or any infiltrated sabotage groups or military equipment or weapons
21 and some other minor tasks or purposes that this whole operation is
22 undertaken for.
23 Q. All right. Well, that's a nice definition, but concretely could
24 you tell me how would this be carried out? We know the purpose, now tell
25 me how.
1 A. It is carried out by -- from a particular position, depending on
2 the problems that we anticipate to face, we head off from the so-called
3 blockade line in a combat disposition of troops and scour the terrain.
4 Q. All right. Well, again, does that mean that the soldiers are
5 walking one behind another in a column, or are they spread out and are
6 they moving in a spread position? Which of the two concretely? Remember,
7 we're are not soldiers.
8 A. Yes. Soldiers move in a combat disposition, which means that they
9 are 6 to 8 or 10 metres apart from each other or from one another, that
10 they have a visible contact between one another. And in the process, they
11 undertake all measures against any possible surprises.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. Now that we know how one would go about
13 searching the terrain, concretely tell us how you and the men moved on the
14 12th to the 13th when you went and you linked up with the 2nd Battalion.
15 In what manner?
16 A. Most often we moved in columns that are secured; in combat terms,
17 they had flank security, front security, and things like that.
18 Q. Is there a particular reason why you moved mostly in columns
19 versus spreading out in a combat disposition format?
20 A. Yes. The reason is mostly difficult terrain that we had the task
21 of moving across. Also, this area contained minefields that we didn't
22 know the location of, and that is what put restrictions on our movement
23 along certain roads, like village roads and things like that.
24 Q. All right. Now, on the 13th after linking up, where did you go?
25 A. On the 13th, I went to my command post in Cizmici, and that took
1 place in the early evening hours. Before that, I visited part of the
2 units in order to see how the situation was there.
3 Q. All right. Now, on the 14th, could you please tell us what, if
4 anything, you and the men did.
5 A. On the 14th, we didn't move anywhere. On the 14th, I also visited
6 my troops because I wanted to organise the so-called firing system in
7 order to prevent any possible surprises from taking place. I also wanted
8 to see how the situation in the battalion was, where the companies and
9 platoons were deployed.
10 Q. All right. Now, I believe, I believe, that this may be time for
11 the break. And if that is the case, then perhaps we can pick up with you
12 explaining to us about why you needed to organise your firing system.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We now have a break. We'll resume at 4.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Now, sir, I believe we left off where you indicated that on July
19 14th one of the things that you wanted to do was organise your firing
20 system. Could you please tell us what do you mean by that.
21 A. It's an undertaking that is always done in order to identify
22 specific tasks of the units on the ground to identify the axis of firing
23 from the weapons that we have at our disposal, and if necessary to create
24 minefields. In short, to undertake all necessary measures in order to
25 undertake the most effective defence as possible.
1 Q. All right. Now, if I understand you, was part -- was the firing
2 in relation to identifying the range of how far the weapons could fire so
3 then you would know where to lay the mines, the land mines? Is that -- am
4 I correct at understanding your rather technical answer?
5 A. Yes, there is a connection, of course.
6 Q. Okay. Now, on the 14th did you do anything else?
7 A. Nothing in particular, apart from that.
8 Q. Did you move your troops in any way? Did you search any terrain?
9 A. No.
10 Q. On the 15th of July do you recall that day, and if so, could you
11 please tell us what, if anything, you and the men did.
12 A. As far as I can remember, there was heavy rain on that day. And I
13 believe that that was a very powerful limiting factor for any sort of
14 activities that we were supposed to do.
15 Q. Do you recall whether you had received any orders? I know that we
16 have the rain and it's a limiting factor, but did you in fact receive any
17 orders that you were required to carry out?
18 A. We had received an order to search the terrain along a specific
19 axis, and as I understood the task was to cover the axis that we already
20 were deployed on.
21 Q. All right. Did you in fact search the terrain?
22 A. We didn't do that either on the 14th or the 15th.
23 Q. Did you by any chance notify your commander by way of passing a
24 message through the duty officer that you were unable to carry out the
25 order that had been issued to you?
1 A. I cannot remember that specific detail, but I presume that it was
2 clear to everyone that because of the rain we were not able to move
4 Q. On the 14th or the 15th, did you or your men come across any enemy
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you come across any dead bodies?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you come across any abandoned weapons?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right. Now, on that 15th, the 15th of July, is there anything
12 else about that particular day that may be of significance for this case?
13 A. One of those days, I think it was the 15th or the 16th - and I
14 think it was the 16th - I was visited by the commander, Lieutenant Colonel
15 Cvjetinovic. He visited me at my position.
16 Q. All right. Just to make sure we got it correct, you were visited
17 by the commander and, and, Lieutenant Colonel Cvjetinovic. Correct?
18 A. Yes, I think so, that both of them came to see me.
19 Q. Okay. But your commander at that point in time was
20 Colonel Blagojevic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recall about what time of day this would have been?
23 A. I suppose that it must have been in the afternoon. I can't tell
24 you the exact hour.
25 Q. Do you recall what the nature of the visit was, the purpose?
1 A. They were just inspecting the troops, they wanted to see where we
2 were, what we were doing, because we didn't communicate too often in those
3 days. They simply wanted to see what the situation was.
4 Q. All right. Could you please tell us approximately how long they
5 were there.
6 A. Perhaps an hour. I'm not sure. I think it was for about an hour.
7 Q. And during that hour or approximate one hour that they were there
8 visiting and checking up, did you by any chance notify them of any
9 particular problems that you might have been having at the time?
10 A. I informed them about the situation prevailing in the unit, about
11 the problems that I faced, because many soldiers were wandering about at
12 that time. I also described the situation in the unit, our specific
13 position, and some other details.
14 Q. All right. Do you know approximately how many soldiers were out
15 wandering about?
16 A. I wouldn't be able to say exactly, to give you a number, but there
17 were cases of individuals who abandoned their positions at the time.
18 Q. Please tell us where these soldiers would have gone, if you know.
19 A. They most probably went home.
20 Q. When you say "home," where are we speaking about, back in Bratunac
21 or some other location?
22 A. Bratunac, most probably. In fact, my soldiers were mostly from
23 the surrounding villages or the area of Podrinje and other villages, which
24 means that they did not come from the urban parts. And I demanded at that
25 time the military police to intensify their operations in case they came
1 across such soldiers to send them immediately back to their positions.
2 Q. All right. Now, on the 16th did you receive any particular
4 A. On the 16th we started the scouring of the ground.
5 Q. All right. And in which direction?
6 A. In the direction of Lupoglava and approximately towards the
7 village which I think is called Susnjari.
8 Q. All right. Now, was that pursuant to an order?
9 A. No. Since the order had a different instruction contained in it,
10 which was rather unclear to me, that was exactly the reason because of
11 these ambiguities that we continued to move from the point where we had
12 been, that is, from the line that we were on on the 14th and the 15th of
14 Q. All right. Incidentally, when you had brought to the attention of
15 the military police, as I believe you indicated, that if they came across
16 any men to send them back to the unit, do you know whether any men were in
17 fact sent back to the unit by the military police?
18 A. I don't know anything about that. I cannot remember.
19 Q. In searching the terrain - and we're going to go through the
20 documents, the orders, and the map - but in searching the terrain, do you
21 recall whether you came across any prisoners?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Any dead bodies?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Any abandoned weapons?
1 A. Are you referring to the 16th?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. No, we didn't find any.
4 Q. Did you by any chance engage -- were you engaged, you and the
5 others? Were you engaged by any enemy forces?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right. Could you please tell us for how long did this
8 searching operation go on.
9 A. Well, it lasted throughout the 16th and only.
10 Q. And what about the 17th? What, if anything, did you do on that
11 day if you recall?
12 A. I remember receiving an order to line up my battalion in the area
13 of my former command post in order to execute the mission of going to
15 Q. And was that carried out?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you please tell us when you left for Zepa, what day, if you
19 A. On the 17th of July, in the morning.
20 Q. Was that the entire unit, the entire battalion, or were some, if
21 you know, left behind to carry out any other orders?
22 A. The entire battalion went on that mission.
23 Q. Did you by any chance ever receive an order to send anyone to
24 Zvornik, to the Zvornik area during those days?
25 A. I think I did. I can't remember the exact date now. But I think
1 I was to send one platoon to the Zvornik area, but that was not done.
2 Q. Okay. Why was it not done?
3 A. Because we had other commitments connected to our going to Zepa,
4 and the entire unit was required to go there and join in the activities in
5 the area of Zepa.
6 Q. All right. Now, do you recall what the reason was that you were
7 asked to send a size of a platoon to go Zvornik, what the purpose ...
8 A. I don't remember the reason why that was asked.
9 Q. Concretely, were you ever asked to supply men so they could carry
10 out executions that were ongoing in that area or any other area during
11 those critical days?
12 A. No, that was never asked.
13 Q. All right. Now, did you supply men to other areas, either at that
14 time or prior to that time, to cover other areas outside the area of
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you please tell us where that would have been.
18 A. A smaller part of the forces was in the area of Trnovo, and a part
19 was also engaged in the area of Pjenovac, towards Kladanj.
20 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to stop here before we talk about any
21 other periods and I want to go back now and go through some documents and
22 some maps. So first, with the assistance of the usher, I would like to
23 show you what has been -- what has come into evidence as P406/A. And I
24 believe we can even put one on the ELMO.
25 First of all, do you recognise this document, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you please tell us, for the record, what is this document.
3 A. It is an order for active combat operations.
4 Q. Do you recall ever seeing this document?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Could you please tell us in this particular document what section,
7 if any, would relate to you and your troops, what paragraph?
8 A. The first point, "Information on the Enemy," is also relevant to
9 us because that was important to me. But specifically related to me are
10 points 5, "Tasks to subordinate units" is the subtitle, which emphasises
11 that the 1st Infantry Battalion is to carry out decisive defence along its
12 current combat positions.
13 Q. Now, I'm going to go step by step.
14 A. All right.
15 Q. Now, was that carried out, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now we'll go to the next sentence, next paragraph. It talks about
18 the use of a large-calibre weapon, a PAM anti-aircraft machine, 76
19 millimetres, self-propelled gun, 30-millimetre guns, and so on. Were
20 these weapons used, sir, the one that are reflected in this exhibit under
21 paragraph 5.1?
22 A. A 30-millimetre gun was out of order. Its brakes were broken, and
23 it was unable to move. It was mounted on an old FAP truck, and it was
24 practically inoperative. The self-propelled vehicle was on its position.
25 Q. All right.
1 A. And there were the PAMs, the anti-aircraft machine-guns. But even
2 there, as far as the self-propelled vehicle is concerned, I had problems
3 with fuel. So it was practically unusable.
4 Q. All right. Now, we know that one had some problems, the other one
5 is practically unusable. Did you in fact use these large-calibre weapons,
6 to your recollection?
7 A. I think we used them on the 12th of July when advancing towards
8 the area of Cizmici village for the purpose of combat support to our
9 activities; intermittently and very briefly we used them.
10 Q. All right. Now, were they directed towards enemy forces, visible
11 enemy forces, on that day, the 12th?
12 A. On that day we did not observe the enemy, but we knew where the
13 enemy positions were. We could see their trenches and we assumed that
14 their points of resistance were there. For instance, the trig point 413
15 frequently opened fire at me, machine-gun fire, and we targeted it most
16 frequently. It was located in the woods but on a dominant feature facing
17 us. And our fire was mostly directed at them, in order to secure the
18 movement of our columns, which were required on the 12th to take hold of
20 Q. All right. But on that day, on that particular day, were you
21 fired upon? You said that you were frequently fired upon from I believe
22 it was trig point 413, but concretely on July 12th do you recall whether
23 you were fired upon before you fired at those observation posts?
24 A. I cannot now precisely recall that detail, but it's quite possible
25 that even that happened.
1 Q. All right. Now, we go to the next paragraph. It says: "Have the
2 reconnaissance platoon ready to repel a possible enemy attack."
3 Did you, sir, have a reconnaissance platoon?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And could you -- did it have a particular name, some insignia that
6 it would be recognisable, like a red beret or something that would have
7 them set off from the rest?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Who were these members of this reconnaissance platoon? Where did
10 they come from?
11 A. They were part of the battalion, and they had been withdrawn from
12 the defence lines so as to give me some minimal backup.
13 Q. All right. Could you please tell us about how many were there.
14 A. About 20, 25.
15 Q. Were they specialised, trained? You know, when we hear
16 reconnaissance, we think of special forces. Were these the sort of folks
17 that we're talking about, highly trained, highly disciplined, highly
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right. Now, it then goes on to say --
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you.
23 It then goes on to say that it is "responsible for the link-up
24 with the 4th Battalion."
25 I take it that's what it says. Right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Did you link up with the 4th Battalion?
3 A. We did.
4 Q. All right. And do you recall whether this linkage occurred prior
5 to or during those critical days, the 6th through the 11th, or was it at
6 some other point?
7 A. Before.
8 Q. Okay. Now -- then it says that it will "support the Bratunac
9 artillery group from current positions according to the plan and
11 First of all, who are or what is this Bratunac artillery group?
12 A. Those were 76-millimetre guns, as far as I know. Some
13 105-millimetre Howitzers, and I believe there were also some
14 122-millimetre guns.
15 Q. All right. And did you provide any support for them? Were there
16 any requests?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Then it says I believe that your forward
19 command post is supposed to be in this Vresinje sector. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, correct.
21 Q. Now, is that where you set it up?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. All right. Now, could you please tell us when was it that
24 you first saw this particular order.
25 A. This order was brought to me by the chief of staff in person when
1 he came to my unit on the 6th of July.
2 Q. All right. Prior to the 6th of July, were you aware, were you
3 aware, that you would be receiving such an order, an order that would
4 require you to carry out these activities?
5 A. No.
6 Q. All right. Do you recall whether you had attended any meetings
7 prior to the 6th of July that -- where you would have been informed of any
8 activities that were about to commence regarding Srebrenica?
9 A. No.
10 Q. All right. Thank you.
11 Now, I want to show you another document, what has been marked, I
12 believe, for identification purposes as D185. Could you please look at
13 that, sir. Do you recognise it?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Okay. And we may not wish to show the signature, the name on that
16 document, but -- all right. And what do you recognise it to be, sir?
17 A. It is a perfectly regular request for resupply of equipment and
19 Q. Okay. Now, in looking at this one would suspect that the material
20 that is being requested is in light of perhaps activities that are about
21 to commence. Would I be correct in reaching that conclusion or making
22 that assumption?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Why not?
25 A. Because first of all I was not even aware of the activities that
1 followed immediately, not at the time, and in view of the current supplies
2 of ammunition and fuel, tractor fuel, that we had in our unit, this is a
3 quite usual request, a quite normal communication, with the logistical
4 unit under the brigade command.
5 Q. Okay. Well, concretely, sir, can you be a little more specific?
6 I mean, let's look at, for instance, diesel. Here you're asking for 40
8 A. Yes. These are extremely low quantities that I was requesting.
9 If you know that the general situation with fuel in our brigade had always
10 been bad, fuel was always a problem. With this kind of fuel, you can
11 cross 10 kilometres, perhaps, with certain vehicles. And this request
12 emphasises the reason why we were requesting replenishment for the medical
13 unit, for instance. Even under circumstances where there is no fighting,
14 troops can get hurt. And it is quite normal that the medical unit should
15 have fuel to transport the wounded. I mentioned a moment ago that my
16 self-propelled gun was out of fuel, and that is confirmed in this request.
17 In order to have a mobile self-propelled gun in case of an attack, I
18 needed fuel. All that was on my mind at the time. I was expecting at the
19 time an attack from a brigade-sized enemy unit, and I needed this
20 equipment and materiel in order to be able to defend my area.
21 Q. All right. So it's your explanation today, if I can just
22 encapsulate it is that this request --
23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
25 MS. ISSA: It's totally unnecessary for Mr. Karnavas to put his
1 own interpretation on the explanation. We've heard it. We've all heard
2 the evidence.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll move on, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: No problem.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
7 MR. KARNAVAS:
8 Q. Now, I want to show you another document. This has come in. This
9 is marked D149. You may wish to keep D185 there just in case we may need
10 to make reference to it. Perhaps it may be necessary; perhaps not. If I
11 could show you this document; it's dated July 3rd, 1995. You do know
12 Mr. Trisic, do you not, the assistant commander for logistics?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Now, is there anything in this document where he's making a
15 request, an urgent request, to the Drina Corps that might be relevant to
16 your request that you made on 4 July 1995?
17 A. It could be relevant. It says explicitly here that he is urgently
18 requesting certain equipment and materiel. I see ammunition, fuel, motor
19 vehicles, et cetera.
20 Q. All right. Well -- but how can he -- his is dated July 3rd.
21 Yours is dated July 4th. How is it that he can forecast what your needs
22 might be?
23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
25 MS. ISSA: That's a totally inappropriate question. It's
1 speculative. I don't see how the witness can answer that. It should have
2 been a question put to Mr. Trisic.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, first of all --
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: A question can be inappropriate without being
6 totally inappropriate. It's either inappropriate or it's not, but be that
7 as it may --
8 JUDGE LIU: But you're asking this witness to speculate.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, he's saying that July 3rd might be
10 relevant. The two documents may be related. He's made a request to
11 Trisic who is responsible for these matters. I'm asking him to exercise,
12 you know, his opinion based on the facts on the ground as to whether
13 Mr. Trisic would have known what his needs would have been for him to put
14 in such a request to the Drina Corps. I don't think it's speculative at
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, first you have to know whether this witness at
17 that time was aware of this document or not.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll go around it another way, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
20 MR. KARNAVAS:
21 Q. In determining what materiel you would need, what would you do or
22 who would handle that for you?
23 A. My assistant commander for logistics would deal with that on my
25 Q. And who would he deal with? Who would he contact?
1 A. He would deal with the assistant commander for logistics at
2 brigade level.
3 Q. Do you know if there was a procedure, if there was, when and if
4 new supplies came in whether the different battalions were informed?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And based on that information, that is, assuming that the
7 assistant commander for logistics had informed you that new supplies had
8 come in, what, if anything, would you or your logistics man do based on
9 that information?
10 A. I would submit my request for replenishment for these particular
12 Q. Thank you. We can go on to another document. Actually, this is a
13 series of documents; they're daily combat reports. And I'm going to start
14 with what has come into evidence as P411. And I'm going to go through
15 these rather quickly so you can comment on the relevant portions.
16 Now, first of all -- do you see, I've just handed you what has
17 been marked as P411. Do you recognise the document, sir?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. And from looking at it, what do you recognise it to be?
20 A. It is a regular or daily combat report.
21 Q. All right. Now, if you could direct our attention to any
22 particular paragraph in this daily combat report that would be relevant to
23 you in particular.
24 A. I cannot distinguish the date here. I cannot find it. Maybe
25 there is a better copy.
1 Q. All right. Now, you say you cannot -- which date are we talking
2 about? The date when this document was generated? I can assure you, at
3 least based on what we know, that this is 6 July 1995. And you may want
4 to look at the bottom, towards the signature.
5 A. I found it.
6 Q. Okay. Now --
7 A. It's clear now. What is relevant to me is para 1, which mentions
8 that the enemy had opened fire at the right flank of the 2nd Infantry
9 Battalion and the left flank of the 1st Infantry Battalion from trig point
10 413 and carried out provocations along the entire defence line of the
11 brigade, which means that the paragraph specifies the left flank of my
13 Q. All right. Now -- and if I may go back to what you stated
14 earlier, when you indicated that there were occasions when you were fired
15 upon, was this the same trig point, 413?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Now, is there anything else in this particular daily combat
18 report dated 6 July 1995 that you would like to draw our attention to that
19 you find worthy of noting?
20 A. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that in my view
21 this report was not written by the commander because this is simply not
22 his phraseology. What you find here is the word "Turk converts," and
23 that's not the kind of word he used. I think, therefore, that this was
24 written by somebody else.
25 Q. All right. Anything else? All right --
1 A. No, nothing else.
2 Q. Okay. Let's go on to the next document, and this would be P412/A.
3 In your case, it would be /B, since we're talking about the Srpski
4 version. Again, it's maybe rather rough to read, but if you could look at
5 it and please tell us what this is.
6 A. This is a document similar to the previous one, only with
7 different content, another daily combat report.
8 Q. What is the date on this one, sir?
9 A. At the bottom of the page one can see that it's dated the 7th of
10 July, 1995.
11 Q. All right. Now, could you direct our attention to any particular
12 paragraph in this daily combat report that is dated 7 July 1995 that is
13 relevant to you and your troops?
14 A. It is mentioned here TT.413 again.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. And it also says that enemy opened fire at our positions, just
17 like on the previous day.
18 Q. Now, did that occur, sir? To your recollection, did the enemy
19 open fire toward your positions on that particular day, that is 7th July,
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. And if we go into paragraph 2, it says: "Our forces
23 returned the fire and also fired artillery at the enemy's firing
25 So, question: Is that referring to you or to your troops, that
1 is, returning the fire?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How do you know?
4 A. Because I didn't have any artillery weapons, so my forces could
5 only have fired from infantry weapons and return fire aiming at certain
7 Q. All right. So from that you can conclude -- you're concluding
8 that this would not have been you because you did not have artillery?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Well, what sort of -- other than, you know, the regular weapons
11 that the soldiers carried, what sort of heavy weaponry did you and your
12 men have at that particular time?
13 A. With the exception of small arms, we also had 82-millimetre and
14 120-millimetre mortars.
15 Q. All right. Well, what's the difference? Can't we conclude that
16 that's sort of in the same ballpark range of artillery, or are we talking
17 about different strength, different impact?
18 A. Well, according to our rules, this is not considered artillery,
19 both from the point of view of range and also according to the
20 establishment, because they are assigned to infantry battalions. This is
21 not a separate, an independent, unit, but it's rather part of an infantry
22 battalion. The range of these weapons is very small. And what I would
23 like to say is that I had an extreme shortage of ammunition for these
24 particular weapons.
25 Q. Okay. Those are the mortars we are talking about?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Just so I'm clear, just so I'm clear, did you fire at all any
3 mortars on the 6th or the 7th?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Now, I want to -- is there anything else about this
6 document that catches your attention that might be worthy of commenting
8 A. This document is pretty unclear -- I mean, the copy is very bad,
9 so I just cannot discern what it says, in fact.
10 Q. All right. Okay. Let's move on to the next document. This has
11 come into evidence as P413. You will be looking at /B, while we look at
12 413/A. Would you please look at this, sir, and tell us what this document
14 A. This is a daily combat report dated 8th of July.
15 Q. Again, as with the previous two documents, can you focus our
16 attention on any particular paragraph that might be relevant to you and
17 your troops?
18 A. The point where it says that officers are either at their forward
19 command positions or at the battalion command, and partly it is relevant
20 in item 1 where it says that the enemy launched a diversion or a mock
21 attack from the direction of Kosa on the right flank of my 4th Infantry
23 Q. Well, first of all, what is a mock attack?
24 A. It's an attack, the purpose of which is to engage certain enemy
25 forces in order to divert the attention of the enemy. It's a kind of
1 cunning move, if I may say so. So the point, the focus, of the attack is
2 not to capture, to occupy, certain axis or a sector, but rather to create
3 a diversion in order to focus the attention of the enemy on another axis.
4 Q. All right. Anything else about this particular combat report?
5 A. There is something illogical, in my view, and that is towards the
6 end of this report where it says -- where it speaks about the conception
7 of 130-millimetre bullets, 90-millimetre bullets.
8 Q. What's wrong with that?
9 A. It seems to me to be illogical that -- because, as per
10 establishment, we didn't have this kind of ammunition, either in that
11 period or after.
12 Q. And we're speaking about the first two items that are listed --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. That would be on paragraph 6 of this document, which is
15 P413. Don't worry about the P413, that's the identification number of the
16 document itself. We're talking about bullets, 130-millimetre, and bullets
17 90-millimetre. Correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. Let's move on to the next document. If you can please
20 take a look at P415. We'll be looking at /A while you look at /B. Would
21 you please tell us what this document is.
22 A. This is a daily combat report dated 9th of July, 1995.
23 Q. And as with the previous three documents, could you please direct
24 our attention to the appropriate paragraph that is relevant to you and
25 your troops.
1 A. The paragraph that was relevant for us is item 5 where it says:
2 "Injured/Wounded." This paragraph reads that during the active combat
3 operations, my battalion suffered casualties in terms that the people
4 named here were wounded and one of them died. And it says that he died
5 before he was transported to the medical centre.
6 Q. All right. And this is in relation to what you had told us
7 earlier about the activities that you had carried out on 9th -- 9 July
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Now, again if we could look at the paragraph number 6,
11 "Consumption," that section. Again, is there anything there that seems
12 illogical in your opinion?
13 A. Yes, there is. Bullet 100-millimetres, it could only be a bullet
14 for an anti-armour gun, and it can also be for a T-55 tank. We also
15 didn't have this kind of weapons. Next, shells, 90-millimetre Panzer and
16 90-millimetre TF, were also something we didn't need because we didn't
17 have that kind of weapons. I also failed to mention bullets 30/2, which
18 are used by anti-aircraft guns known as Praga. We also didn't have such
19 weapons. In other words, I don't understand why this report contains
20 consumption of the weapons that we actually didn't have, as per
21 establishment in our brigade.
22 Q. All right. And if you could refresh our memory again before we go
23 into any more documents. Again, what was your specialised training in the
24 military, in what area?
25 A. My specialty is artillery.
1 Q. So I take it in light of that background you would know about
2 these sorts of matters that we're speaking about?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And then lastly if we could go up the page to paragraph 2,
5 is there anything in this particular paragraph which would give us an
6 impression as to your whereabouts on this particular day?
7 A. It says here the chief of staff was in the area of responsibility,
8 which I think is a wrong term because a battalion doesn't have an area of
9 responsibility, at least I don't know of any such case. The same applies
10 to the brigade. So it says the chief of staff is, as I understand it, in
11 the area which is covered by my battalion.
12 Q. Okay. All right. Now, let's go on to the next document, P416.
13 And again, you'll be looking at 416/B, while we look at 416/A. Could you
14 please tell us what this document is, sir.
15 A. This is a daily combat report dated 10th of July.
16 Q. And as with the previous daily reports that we've looked at, could
17 you please focus our attention to the appropriate paragraph that is
18 pertinent to you and your troops.
19 A. Item 1 which says that "enemy carried out combat activities all
20 along the brigade defence line" is the one pertaining to my unit. And
21 probably this implies that the enemy had committed acts of provocations,
22 as they had done before.
23 Q. All right. Is there anything else?
24 A. Also where it says that the chief of staff is in the
25 1st Battalion.
1 Q. All right. Was he at that point in time, to your recollection?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And was he doing anything in particular during those days while he
4 was there?
5 A. He was surveying the situation in the battalion, how ready we were
6 for defence in the defence area that we covered. He was issuing certain
7 directives and guidelines.
8 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.
9 Now, I think we'll go on to another document. And this is what
10 has been marked and entered into exhibit as D131/1. If you could look at
11 that. Now, recognising that you did not generate this document, that is a
12 document that was prepared or at least signed by Trisic, the assistant
13 commander for logistics on 12 July 1995, could you please tell us whether
14 there are any items listed from 1 to 17 that are relevant to your unit or
15 your troops.
16 A. This deals with the consumption of materiel and equipment, and it
17 has been compiled in the form of a report submitted by the assistant
18 commander for logistics for this specific period of time.
19 Q. All right. Do you recognise any items on this list that would
20 have been dispensed to you or your men during this period, that is, from
21 the 10th to the 12th?
22 A. I cannot say that among these 35-odd thousand bullets were the
23 bullets fired by some of my soldiers from their positions. But if you
24 allow me, I would like to draw your attention to what specifically says
25 this -- the previous reports referred to when it comes to the consumption
1 of ammunition.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. Item 6, "bullet 30 millimetres". This confirms that we are
4 talking about gun or cannon 30/2 known as Praga. Item 7 is not quite
5 clear in the copy that I have in front of me. Then item number 12,
6 "bullet 90 millimetres" which refers to M36 self-propelled gun, and it
7 says specifically so here. This is also one of the weapons that we didn't
8 have, as per establishment. Next item, "bullet 100 millimetres" confirms
9 that this refers to a tank, because T stands for a tank, and the number is
10 55. Likewise, we didn't have such weapons in our unit. Next one, "bullet
11 105 Howitzer," we did have those, however "bullet 122 millimetres" also
12 indicates it's used for Howitzers, not guns, but this is the type of
13 Howitzers that we didn't have.
14 Q. You told us earlier that "bullet 30 millimetres" that says cannon
15 30/2, you did not have the weapon for the consumption of those bullets.
17 A. Yes, we didn't have this kind of weapon known as Praga.
18 Q. And just for your information item 7 says: "Bullet 30
19 millimetres, cannon with MiG. Expansion unknown."
20 A. With MiG. That's a cannon with -- that is an explanation for an
21 airplane, but it's not clear to me either.
22 Q. Okay. Just drawing your attention lastly to 16. On your -- in
23 light of your experience with this particular brigade, do you feel
24 confident in commenting on item 16 where it talks about diesel, the
25 disbursement of 3.039 litres of diesel during this two-day period?
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa?
2 MS. ISSA: That's a very broad question, Your Honour. We don't
3 know what the question is. Commenting on what? In respect of what?
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm not sure whether there is any vehicles in
5 that battalion. You know, there has to be some connections with this
6 witness, you know.
8 (Redacted) I'm asking him in light of his knowledge and experience in
9 being in that brigade, he would have known, as he knows about all these
10 other items, whether this particular brigade had the sort of equipment
11 that would have consumed 3.000 litres in a period of two days.
12 JUDGE LIU: You may put this question to this witness, but I am
13 not quite sure we could get an answer.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I'll lay some foundation, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. KARNAVAS:
17 Q. You began serving with the Bratunac Brigade about what time?
18 A. From the 1st of April, 1993.
19 Q. Okay. So by July 12, 1995, we're talking a little bit over two
20 years being in the Bratunac Brigade. Correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, in light of your position, the position that you held within
23 the brigade, and in light of having served in that brigade for a period of
24 two years, do you feel competent enough to comment on the number of
25 vehicles the brigade would have had at this particular time?
1 A. I can say that it had a few vehicles.
2 Q. Now, in your opinion - that's all we can ask for - but in your
3 opinion, is this figure of 3.039 litres of diesel being consumed in a
4 period of two days, is that consistent with the number of vehicles that
5 you knew the Bratunac Brigade had and was able to actually -- that were
6 actually functioning and capable of consuming that amount of petrol in two
8 A. I don't think that was possible.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. We can move on to the next document.
10 Now, if I could show you another series of reports starting with
11 exhibit P441/A. You will be looking at /B. If you could look at this
12 document, sir, and please tell us what is it.
13 A. It's a daily combat report dated 12th July.
14 Q. 12 July 1995. Correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. All right. Now, as with the previous daily combat report, if you
17 could assist us in focusing our attention to the relevant paragraph.
18 A. There is something really illogical in this report in my view, and
19 that is that there is no mention of what our units did specifically on
20 that day. There is no mention here that together with other -- with the
21 2nd Infantry Battalion we carried out certain tactical shifting of troops.
22 There is also no mention of the lines reached. Generally, my impression
23 is that someone compiled this report in a haste, and this shows that in
24 that period we did have certain problems, particularly in terms of
25 coordination among our respective units and activities, in that we needed
1 some more specific instructions as to what to do at specific times.
2 Q. All right. If I could focus your attention to paragraph 2 in the
3 English version, I don't know how it comes out in your language, but it
4 says: "Our forces are mopping up the enclave and preventing the enemy
5 from breaking through in the above-mentioned direction."
6 First of all, this "mopping up," what does that mean, to mop up,
7 if there is such a thing?
8 A. It's a jargon term. This is not a regular military term. And I
9 can't say -- can't understand specifically what the author meant by this
10 in this particular report.
11 Q. You can or you cannot?
12 A. I cannot.
13 Q. Okay. All right. Is there anything else that you find illogical
14 or out of order in this particular daily combat report dated 12 July 1995?
15 A. What strikes me - and that even more corroborates my previous
16 claim that somebody really wrote this in a hurry - is the statement under
17 item 5 where it says that we will submit details of consumption of
18 ammunition and fuel later. In the previous reports, this had always been
19 very specifically stated; however, in this report there is no mention of
20 that. And I don't understand the reason why.
21 Q. Okay. If we could go on to the next document, P469/B. And just
22 for the record, we do appreciate the enormous amount of assistance from
23 the usher, who is traversing back and forth with these documents.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Before we get to this document, Mr. President, I'm
25 not used to the afternoon hours. Is it time or am I mistaken?
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's time, but if you feel it's necessary we
2 could continue.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well --
4 JUDGE LIU: Until you finish this document.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, there are some other documents that go along
6 with this document. And so we can break at this point, because I'm afraid
7 that it will go on for at least another 10 minutes to finish the other two
8 documents that accompany this.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So we'll have a break and we'll resume at 10
10 minutes to 6.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, please continue.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Okay, sir, I believe we left off as we were about to launch into
16 the daily combat report dated 13 July 1995. Is that correct? Do you have
17 it in front of you?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Yes. And for the record, I'm referring to what is marked as P469.
20 Now, in looking at this daily combat report, as you have with the previous
21 ones, could you direct our attention to the pertinent paragraph as it
22 relates to you and your men.
23 A. I would draw your attention to this reference that says that we
24 are searching the terrain. In fact, we were not searching the terrain
25 that day. The area of Milacevici and Babuljica villages was the territory
1 ahead of us.
2 Q. All right. Well, can you account for such a mistake in this daily
3 combat report and why would they include something that's not accurate?
4 A. The person who wrote this, and I suppose that was the duty
5 officer, the duty operative officer, was not in possession of specific
6 information as to our whereabouts and our current activities. That could
7 be an explanation, or maybe the duty officer thought that it was his duty
8 to write this report this way as --
9 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
11 MS. ISSA: I'm objecting to that. That's totally speculative and
12 it's a conclusion that I don't believe the witness is in a position to
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I did not see this battalion the
15 witness was belonging to was mentioned in this document. I believe that
16 this document is talking about the whole brigade.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: If I could go back, Your Honour, I'll --
18 Q. Looking at this particular document, which of the seven paragraphs
19 that are numbered are related to your battalion specifically, if any of
21 A. Well, looking at this document I suppose that para 2 is relevant.
22 "During the search of Milacevici and Babuljica villages, our forces did
23 not meet any resistance." It's true that we did not meet any resistance,
24 but as to major movements of our forces, we were not actually searching
25 the terrain. We were linking up or joining up with the 2nd Infantry
1 Battalion. Somebody could have interpreted that as a search of the
2 terrain, although these are two different actions, search of the terrain
3 as opposed to joining up.
4 Q. All right. Just to be on the safe side, which paragraph of the
5 seven were you referring to?
6 A. Item 1.
7 Q. Okay. And so what you're telling us is that item 1 is not
8 accurate, at least to the best of your recollection?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. If we could go on to the next report. I want to show
11 you now what has been marked as P485. We're looking at /A; you're looking
12 at /B. Could you please look at this, sir.
13 A. This is a daily combat report dated the 14th of July, 1995.
14 Q. All right. And is there any particular paragraph that you want to
15 draw our attention to that relates specifically to your battalion?
16 A. In para 1, reference is made to the terrain where our forces were
17 doing a search. And it says that no enemy forces were spotted, nor did we
18 come across any enemy; that could be a reference to me and it probably
19 was. On that day I did not come across or had any contact with any enemy
21 Q. All right. And on that particular day, were you searching the
23 A. No.
24 Q. So is this accurate?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Is there anything else that you want to draw our
2 attention to on this particular one?
3 A. Maybe the point where it says that on the territory which our
4 brigade was supposed to cover in an operative way, there was no danger or
5 there was danger of enemy attack, enemy surprise attack, which is in line
6 with what I thought, namely that we had to be ready and prevent any
8 Q. All right. And again, before I move from this document to the
9 next, drawing your attention to paragraph 2 it talks about a particular
10 order, does it not, with respect to searching and clearing the terrain?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is it your understanding, sir, that on this particular day,
13 that is 14 July 1995, you and your men were --
14 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MS. ISSA: That's clearly leading.
17 MR. KARNAVAS:
18 Q. Did you on this particular day, 14 July 1995, carry out any
19 searching activities, as reflected in paragraph 2 pursuant to an order
20 numbered 157/5?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you.
23 Now, speaking of that order perhaps it would be an opportune time
24 to go to that. So I would like to draw your attention to what has been
25 marked and entered into evidence as P472. This will be the first document
1 that we look at. Now, from the previous document that I had just shown
2 you, if you may recall, it said that the order was numbered 4-157-5. In
3 looking at this document, sir --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- would this be the order itself that the previous document,
6 that is, Exhibit P485 shown to you, was referring to?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Now, if you would please look at it for a second, and
9 if you could please tell us, first of all, what is this order for?
10 A. It is an order to search the terrain.
11 Q. From whom?
12 A. It is unclear who signed it, but I suppose it is Major General
13 Radislav Krstic.
14 Q. All right. And to whom is it directed?
15 A. In the beginning of the document, it is indicated that it was
16 directed towards the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, 1st Milici Light
17 Infantry Brigade, and the Skelani Independent Battalion.
18 Q. All right. Now, and then in looking at this particular document
19 without going into any great details, which of the six enumerated
20 paragraphs concern the Bratunac Brigade?
21 A. The document is poorly legible, but para 2 seems to be
22 relevant -- no, para 1, sorry, para 1.
23 Q. All right. Now -- and are you able to at least make out the areas
24 that you are being asked to -- that the Bratunac Brigade is being asked to
25 search, or would you want me to read the English translation for you?
1 A. If you please, because the document is illegible.
2 Q. Okay. All right. Under paragraph 1 it says: "The 1st Light
3 Infantry Brigade, Bratunac Brigade, shall search the terrain of the former
4 Srebrenica enclave up to the following line: Ravni Buljim. Excluded;
5 Zvijezda, trig point 906." I would have practiced that, had I known I was
6 going to be reading this.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Siljato Brdo, trig point 901; Slapovici village along Zeleni Jadar
9 river bank up to Zeleni Jadar bridge excluded."
10 Okay. Now, I want to show you the next document, which is P483
11 which has come into evidence. And if you look at this. And you may want
12 to keep -- you may want to have handy the previous document as well just
13 there, just in case. All right. Now, do you recognise what this document
14 is, sir?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. And what is this document?
17 A. It is an order for terrain search.
18 Q. All right. And which of the enumerated seven paragraphs relate to
19 your battalion?
20 A. Para 1.
21 Q. All right. Now, if you compare paragraph 1 of the document that
22 I've given you, which is dated 14 July 1995, and it's P483, with the
23 previous document which was dated July 13, 1995, and that would be P472,
24 the areas which you are being asked to search, do they correspond roughly,
25 generally, in principle, with the areas which are in the order by
1 Major General Krstic?
2 A. This is just an attempt to translate this order by Radislav Krstic
3 into operational terms, but in the execution part there are some illogical
4 terms. And it is not quite clear.
5 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you a map, and this is D186 for
6 identification. If you could please take a look at it, keeping the
7 documents that you have in front of you, especially the one dated 14 July.
8 If I could first show you this document which has been marked for
9 identification as D187. Perhaps we can put this -- well, first you can
10 look at it and then we'll take it from there step by step.
11 First of all, do you recognise this map, sir?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And are there any notations on this particular map which you
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please tell us what are those notations, in general?
17 We're going to get into --
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
19 MS. ISSA: I'm wondering if, Your Honour, perhaps we can put this
20 on the ELMO so we can follow along.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes --
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, Mr. President, Mr. President, I can
23 understand how the Prosecutor is anxious for us to get to the map;
24 however, first, I don't want the gentleman's signature and name to be
25 appearing on the ELMO since this is a protected witness. I wish for him
1 first to identify the document to make sure that this is the map he has
2 marked. And then from there we were going to go on to the specific areas.
3 JUDGE LIU: We have already taken some measures that anything on
4 the ELMO will not be available on the public TV outside this courtroom.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
6 Q. Would you please -- we're going to put this map on that little
7 projector; we call it ELMO here. The gentleman is going to take the map
8 from you; he's going to put it on the ELMO. And you're going to be able
9 to see it on the screen. If we can open up the map so we can see where
10 your signature line is. Delicately, please.
11 First of all, if we could please --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. KARNAVAS:
14 Q. If we could gently look at this map. On this particular map, do
15 you see your signature, sir?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And is there a date by your signature?
18 A. There is.
19 Q. And could you please tell us what that date is?
20 A. The 15th December, 1999.
21 Q. Okay. And could you please tell us -- this map has some markings.
22 Are those your markings, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you please tell us when you made those markings.
25 A. On that date.
1 Q. Before whom?
2 A. Before the gentleman from the Prosecution.
3 Q. All right. So -- and where was that, just so we have a record of
5 A. At the international motel in Banja Luka.
6 Q. Okay. All right. So these markings were made when you were
7 giving a statement to the Prosecutors. Correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. All right. Now, if you can first of all -- we're going to go from
10 the general to the specific. So first of all, please explain to us what
11 these markings are that you've made. And the usher there is going to
12 gently slide the map as you describe the points, the various points, on
13 the map. So first, what are we looking at that you have marked on this
14 particular map?
15 A. On this map I marked the defence lines primarily of my battalion,
16 and then those of other battalions of our brigade.
17 Q. Okay. Now, you -- we're going to give you a pointer, and you're
18 going to have to point on the map itself.
19 A. All right.
20 Q. Do it rather delicately. If you could point to us exactly where
21 is the 1st Battalion on this map.
22 A. The 1st Infantry Battalion was on the line from Lomanac Brook,
23 including that brook, then Pajici village. Trig point 405 Lemesac. Then
24 there is an interruption in the line. The line is broken perhaps because
25 maps existed in different editions, in different years. And they do not
1 continue on to each other. And then follows trig point 532. And these
2 two maps were given me separately, to mark them. So here I made an error
3 regarding the positions overlooking Blazevici. The positions were not
4 exactly where I drew them, but were from trig point 555, excluding trig
5 point 555. There is an old dirt road here, and it ends here at
6 Ilina Brdo, Ilina Hill.
7 Q. Now, if you could correct the map, since you indicated that these
8 were two separate maps that are now stapled -- we Scotch-taped them
9 together. If you could make that slight correction and do it here in open
10 court, gently.
11 A. [Witness complies]
12 Q. Okay. And perhaps for that little stretch of the terrain, we can
13 even have you initial it so we know that you indeed made that marking.
14 Maybe put a date on it, too. I think we're on July -- June, June 1.
15 A. [Witness complies]
16 Q. Okay. Now, if we could just go through some of the other markings
17 briefly, just very briefly. Tell us what else you have marked on this
18 map. We don't need to know the exact trig points, but what else does this
19 map have?
20 A. On this map we see other markings designating the areas of defence
21 or defence lines held by other battalions. Markings in green indicate
22 positions which I took on the 12th of July and where I stayed all up to
23 the 16th. On the 16th, we moved and the green arrows show in which
24 direction we moved and what we did.
25 Q. Okay. Well, at least I'm having some difficulties seeing the
1 green arrows. But before we get to that, do you also have on this map,
2 have you marked the other battalions, where they're located?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Could you please just show us, if we just move the map
5 briefly, and you could show us where the other battalions are as you have
6 reflected them on this particular map. Where is the 2nd Battalion?
7 A. The 2nd Battalion was positioned from Lomanac Brook, exclusive;
8 then trig point 436, Ladja; then trig point 438, towards the so-called
9 Zuti Most; then trig point 773, Caus; trig point 777, Obadi. And I
10 believe this point here is the road to Rudnik. Up to here was the
11 position of the 2nd Battalion, exclusive of the last point.
12 Q. And could you please show us where the 3rd Battalion would have
14 A. I was not really familiar with the position of the 3rd Battalion,
15 but I drew my assumptions as to where they were deployed. Across this
16 road, then the lead and zinc mine, three kings, trig point 861; trig point
17 101.3, quartz; and further on towards trig point 906. But I cannot be
18 quite certain about this because they were far away from me, at least that
19 we see on the map.
20 Q. All right. Now, in an earlier order we saw where you had to link
21 up with the 4th Battalion. Where was the 4th Battalion for you to link
23 A. The 4th Battalion was deployed between trig point 555, Ilina Bara,
24 across TT.651 I think in the -- in another map it's called Ornice feature.
25 And they had a kind of semi-circular defence line here pointing towards
1 right for the simple reason that this was an interim area between the
2 Milici and Bratunac Brigades. And this is a stretch as the crow flies of
3 about 2 or 3 kilometres.
4 Q. All right. Now, looking at this map before we discuss the -- this
5 particular order and the areas which you were ordered to search, could you
6 please point out where your command post would have been. Where was the
7 command post of the 1st Battalion?
8 A. Are you asking me about the 6th of July or before that date?
9 Q. Well, let's start with the 6th of July, because that's the period
10 that we're really interested in.
11 A. All right. It was located approximately here in the Magasici or
12 Bozici village sector, close to a house.
13 Q. Okay. Now, is there a trig point or something that you can direct
14 our attention to?
15 A. Well, there is no specific trig point. This is an old map and it
16 doesn't show very clearly that there was a rather good-quality dirt road.
17 And we were billeted in the houses, in the Serbian houses there.
18 Q. Now, what's the name of the village again?
19 A. The wider area is called Bozici and some people call it Magasici.
20 Q. And what does the map reflect so we have a point of reference?
21 A. The map says "Bozici."
22 Q. All right. Now, could you mark it -- could you mark that area
23 perhaps with an "X," so at least later when we're looking at this map we
24 know that the X denotes the forward command post on the 6th of July, 1995.
25 A. I apologise, but this was not our forward command post; it was our
1 command post.
2 Q. I apologise.
3 A. [Witness complies]
4 Q. Okay. Now, if you could please show us where it was that you
5 noticed the column. You said that on the night of the 10th and on the day
6 of the 11th, you noticed a column heading in a particular direction.
7 Where would that -- where was that column located?
8 A. On the 10th, we noticed smaller groups, at least what we were able
9 to see was not a major column. It was rather groups and smaller columns.
10 And we noticed them in the Jaglici village sector.
11 Q. Okay. Could you put a circle around that area so we know that the
12 circle would reflect where the column was when you first saw it.
13 A. [Witness complies]
14 Q. Now, could you please show us in which direction was this column
15 travelling in.
16 A. It was travelling, as indicated by this arrow, towards this
17 interim space that existed here much before these events took place.
18 Q. All right. So that would be sort of in a north-western --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. All right. And from the distance where your men were
21 located, again could you please tell us how many kilometres are we
22 speaking about.
23 A. As the crow flies, if you take these points from which they could
24 be observed, I specifically saw them from this point of Vresinje. So let
25 us measure this because we have a scale on the map. Approximately 4
1 kilometres, as the crow flies.
2 Q. All right. Now, you said "from this point." Which point again
3 are we speaking about? Is that your forward command post as opposed to a
4 command post?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, could you please put a "Y" at the forward command post so
7 that we know that --
8 A. [Witness complies].
9 Q. It looks more like an "x," but okay. All right.
10 Now, I want to direct your attention back to the order itself.
11 Okay. And this is the order of 14 July 1995, where you're being asked to
12 search the terrain pursuant to an earlier order that was issued by
13 General Krstic.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, in looking at paragraph 1 you indicated that it was rather
16 unclear or there was -- you had some problems with it. First of all,
17 could you please tell us what is paragraph 1 direct -- what area is
18 paragraph 1 directing you to search? Could you show us on the map.
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, we don't have the translation --
21 MS. ISSA: I'm sorry. I can't hear.
22 MR. KARNAVAS:
23 Q. First of all, I need you to slow down a little bit and -- so take
24 it from the beginning step by step, slowly. The first part says -- let me
25 read it, you follow along, and then you point to us.
1 It says that: "The 1st Infantry Battalion searched the terrain
2 from the area of the former enclave of Srebrenica on the right side." It
3 says: "The junction of Bratunac/Konjevic Polje."
4 Then it says "Jezestica Road, K316."
5 Now, could you please show us, what is this referring to?
6 A. As I said, it's a rather complicated explanation for one point
7 only. And one might become confused with this. But as it -- as I see it,
8 it could only mean the trig point 316, and I'm pointing at it now. Then
9 the next feature mentioned here is trig point 555 exclusive. Here it is.
10 555, exclusive. The next feature is Lupoglav, trig point 675, and this is
11 where it is. The next feature is village of Susnjari exclusive. So this
12 is this right-hand or left-hand side --
13 Q. Let me stop you. Polako. Slowly. We have to -- now, it says
14 here Bratunac/Konjevic Polje/Zesica road. Where is Konjevic Polje on this
16 A. I must find it --
17 Q. I know, but we're going to have to pull it down. Right around --
18 A. [Indicates]
19 Q. That's the -- that area.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And where is 316? Without moving the map, please, I think we
22 might be able to handle this.
23 A. Here it is.
24 Q. Where is it?
25 A. Elevation 316.
1 Q. Okay. Now -- well, let me focus your attention here because I'm a
2 little confused. What does Konjevic Polje have to do with point 316? We
3 looked at this order. It says: "Bratunac/Konjevic Polje/Zesica road
5 What does Konjevic Polje have anything to do with 316?
6 A. Only in the sense that somebody wanted to explain that this is a
7 junction of the roads which partly relies on this Bratunac/Konjevic Polje
8 section of the road. And in the next segment it may -- it -- they made it
9 more specific by saying that they were referring to the village of
10 Jezestica, elevation 316.
11 Q. Okay. Now, before we get to the next section, pursuant to this
12 order as you understood it and as you are explaining it to us today, were
13 you being asked to search any part of the terrain from Konjevic Polje,
14 where you pointed out at the top of the map, to 316?
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right. Now, concretely speaking, where was the starting point
17 of the searching of this terrain?
18 A. I would like to say only that this is a border of a whole zone and
19 it's not a starting point when we speak about trig point 316. The
20 starting point was from the positions we had been holding up until the
21 15th. So from these positions, in fact, we started the search.
22 Q. All right. Now I'm a little confused. Where is 316?
23 A. Here it is.
24 Q. Could you mark that, please, with a circle.
25 A. [Witness complies]
1 Q. Now, that's behind your line, isn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would there be any need for you to search behind your line?
4 A. There wouldn't.
5 Q. Why wouldn't there be, just to make sure that we understand that?
6 A. Because at the time it would have been nonsensical to leave the
7 existing position to someone else and the area that I have got hold of,
8 and to withdraw backwards, that would be superfluous and totally
10 Q. All right. I think I'm clear on that point now. So getting back,
11 your starting point would have been where, at least pursuant to this
12 particular order, albeit it says 316, where would you have concretely
13 started your searching?
14 A. Concretely under this order, I should have started it from 316 up
15 to the Lomanac Brook and the line that travels between the two points.
16 Q. All right. If we could move the map a little bit over. Where --
17 on this particular day, where are your troops located?
18 A. They were located here in this section between trig point 555,
19 Ilina Bara over Vresina, Cizmici, up to Pale.
20 Q. All right. Now, let me stop you. The line that we see right now
21 that exists, that was the -- your defensive zone, was it not?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. Now, at what point -- I believe you did tell us already whether it
24 was the 12th or the 13th, at some point you moved some of your troops.
25 Could you please tell us where you moved them.
1 A. I moved them only in this section between the Lomanac Brook via
2 Lemesac. There is a feature called Stolice. And up to trig point 532.
3 So approximately three infantry companies were moved. The remaining
4 units, the 1st and the 2nd Infantry Companies remained at their positions
5 for several reasons.
6 Q. All right. Now, maybe you can take the marker there and first of
7 all, with an arrow, point in which direction the troops would have moved.
8 And secondly, perhaps with a dotted line, show us where they had actually
9 moved to. So the dotted line would reflect where you moved the troops to,
10 the arrow -- the direction in which they moved.
11 A. [Witness complies]
12 Q. And could you please tell us what day did you leave -- did you
13 move and which day did they arrive at this position.
14 A. We moved to these positions on the 12th of July.
15 Q. So perhaps you could put 12 July there so we know.
16 A. [Witness complies]
17 Q. Now, concretely speaking, on the 14th of July, 1995, when you
18 received this order, are your troops in the location as we see it now,
19 that is, the 1st and the 2nd and the dotted line which your troops moved
20 to on the 12th of July, 1995?
21 A. I would also like to add that on the 12th of July we didn't have
22 this particular section; we failed to link up with the 2nd Battalion. We
23 did that only on the 13th, this shorter section between here and here.
24 Q. Okay. So -- all right. So that would be the two last sections
25 that you have, the two last dotted lines?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to this particular order, if you could
3 now show us what areas again you're being asked to search. You told us
4 about 316 and how that did not make any sense because you would have to
5 give up territory that you occupied only to re-search it, knowing that
6 there's no enemy behind you. So where is 555? Where is that trig point?
7 A. Trig point 555 is here.
8 Q. All right. And where is trig point 675?
9 A. Lupoglav.
10 Q. Okay. And where is the village of Sandici? It says up to the
11 village of Sandici.
12 A. It's somewhere here on this road. Yes, here it is.
13 Q. No, I'm sorry. I've got it -- I have it wrong. It says up to the
14 village of Sandjari?
15 A. Susnjari.
16 Q. Susnjari, yes.
17 A. Susnjari is here.
18 Q. And then it says -- on the left side. And then it says Lomanac
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And then it says: "The village Pale up to the trig point
22 906." And then it talks about your command post will be in -- where is
23 the command post, according to this order?
24 A. The command post was in Cizmici, here.
25 Q. Okay. Now, if I could get you to please -- I don't know if we
1 have another colour, but to perhaps draw the line in actuality of what you
2 were asked to search, that is starting with 316, even though in your
3 opinion it doesn't make sense.
4 A. Shall I just mark the line or the zone?
5 Q. Well, let's start with the line first. Let's keep it simple.
6 A. So this is this point.
7 Q. Okay. But I'm talking about the entire -- under the order, 316,
8 555, 687, 906. What is the area, the geographical area, that you're being
9 asked to search?
10 A. Then I'll mark the whole area.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. This is Susnjari.
13 Q. How far are you supposed to go now, because it looks like a
15 A. Well, from these starting lines -- in fact, this left flank should
16 stretch some 8 or 9 kilometres. The right flank would be 5 to 6
17 kilometres long, in roads.
18 Q. All right. Now, in actuality, sir, based on your experience, your
19 knowledge of the terrain, knowing the number of men that you had, was the
20 task that you were being given, the searching of this particular terrain
21 as designated, was it realistic?
22 A. No, it wasn't realistic.
23 Q. All right. Aside from the fact that this order was asking you to
24 search terrain that was clear and free, in other words go backwards only
25 to go forwards again --
1 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I'm objecting to that. It's totally
2 argumentative --
3 MR. KARNAVAS: It's not argumentative --
4 MS. ISSA: And it's also misstating the evidence.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. McCloskey doesn't need to whisper. He can
6 stand up and object for Ms. Issa.
7 JUDGE LIU: No, we have rules here.
8 Mr. Karnavas, I fail to see your point in asking the witness to
9 mark on those maps, because the witness testified that they had no
10 prisoners, no weapons during this period.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that, Your Honour. One of the reasons
12 why I'm asking the gentleman to mark it is because, you see, when we see
13 Konjevic Polje it's -- for the Prosecution it's like a bull seeing red and
14 they head for that. And what I'm trying to demonstrate is that this
15 particular order, even though it has Konjevic Polje in it, has nothing to
16 do with Konjevic Polje. And actually I'm showing where the area was that
17 this gentleman, along with his men, were supposed to search. So I do
18 think that it's part of the evidence, as far as where the different
19 battalions were searching, pursuant to orders that we have.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes --
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Now we do have Mr. McCloskey on his feet.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: I take it it's going to be procedural, Your Honour.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, the description is the
25 Konjevic Polje/Bratunac road. I think after a year we all know what road
1 that is. That's all it says and we're not suggesting there's any great
2 mystery to it. I just wanted to clear that up if it will save time. We
3 know what the Konjevic Polje/Bratunac road is but I think they threw in
4 another village to make it a little clear. That's not really in contest
5 here, that road.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: I just have a couple more questions, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: And there are other reasons which will become
9 eminently clear in my closing argument, a little bit like a mosaic.
10 Q. Now, if you could -- the area that you're being asked to search,
11 is that realistic, in light of the men that you have at your disposal?
12 A. It's unrealistic, both for the reason of the number of men at my
13 disposal but also because, in fact, I was to go in front of other units.
14 The remaining units would be moving in that direction. And if it were to
15 happen that I was going faster, I may have gone in front of them and
16 friendly fire may have occurred, which in such situations are quite
17 possible. The whole area is huge and it is difficult to negotiate it. So
18 in any case, it was a problem and we did not execute this order in the
19 manner prescribed.
20 Q. And just one last question while we're at this subject. If we
21 look at paragraph number 5, there is a completion time of 16 July 1995.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You're given two days to complete this task. Are you saying that
24 even with that amount of time, two full days, you and your men could not
25 accomplish this task?
1 A. Hardly. Plus there was another force majeure event as far as I
2 remember on the 15th of July. It was raining very hard, which was another
3 restrictive factor in starting this search of the terrain.
4 Q. All right. Now, you're being asked to establish your command post
5 at Cizmici. And I apologise for the pronunciation, but I'm a little
6 tired, not that I'm any better when I'm fresh. But when was it that you
7 had established that command post?
8 A. That command post was set up on the 12th of July.
9 Q. So from that can we conclude that the author of this -- or what
10 can we conclude, seeing that you establish it on the 12th. And now on the
11 14th you're being asked to establish it? Can you draw any conclusions
12 from that?
13 A. We can draw the conclusion that this command post was formalised
14 in this format.
15 Q. Okay. But what about the author? Here you're being asked on the
16 14th to establish something that's already been established, are you not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now -- and just for the record, could you kind of mark that
19 somehow so we know -- with an "A" for instance so we know that this is the
20 command post, the area.
21 A. [Witness complies]
22 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, before we leave this particular
23 document, I want you to look at it for a second. Does it state in this
24 document to whom it was distributed?
25 A. It says that it was delivered to the chief of staff.
1 Q. Okay. And before we go on, I believe we're through with the map.
2 And we want to thank the -- Mr. Usher for assisting us.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, unrelated to the specific testimony,
5 but just a matter of a fair amount of importance, it is really unclear
6 from the Prosecution what the relevancy of that was, as the Court
7 requested from counsel. Counsel has stated he's going to do his mosaic in
8 his closing argument. That's really -- under this system doesn't work,
9 because we need to know what we're cross-examining about. And in some
10 systems like this, the Prosecution has rebuttal to the closing argument,
11 which because we have the burden of proof, it's normal. And I will be
12 asking, if we can't tie this material up or at least have some showing of
13 relevancy, I'm going to need to be able to have a short rebuttal argument,
14 otherwise Mr. Karnavas in his mosaic is going to reveal all and the
15 Prosecution will have nothing to say about it. And before Mr. Karnavas
16 reveals all at the end, I would like to have a response. And I don't know
17 if we need to get into this at this late date, especially the relevance,
18 in front of the witness. But perhaps in the morning we might get an idea
19 of the mosaic to come.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, do you want to tell us something
21 now, or we may wait until tomorrow morning?
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I don't believe in delayed
23 gratification. I'll give it -- I'll respond right now --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, the problem is is the witness is
25 hearing the relevance and the witness is going to be talking about these
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I didn't jump up, Your Honour. I didn't jump
3 up and make this objection. We can excuse the witness for the evening --
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: -- and I can make my little five-minute
6 presentation. I don't have a problem.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to give
8 your evidence. I'm afraid you have to stay here overnight and during your
9 stay in The Hague you are still under oath. So don't let anybody talk to
10 you and don't talk to anybody about your testimony. Do you understand?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. The usher will show you out of the room.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's have your closing argument for today.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, thank you, Mr. President. I always like to
16 argue as much as I can, and as early as possible.
18 (Redacted) He did draw a map for the
19 Office of the Prosecution where he outlined exactly where his folks were
20 throughout those critical days. The searching of the terrain has been a
21 somewhat contentious or an issue that has been litigated somewhat in this
22 particular case. And that -- also in addition to that, we -- lots of
23 documents have come in either through Mr. Butler or other witnesses, and a
24 significant amount of importance has been placed on the content of the
25 document as if the documents are accurate, or purport to be accurate. So
1 what I'm trying to demonstrate here is that first of all, whoever wrote
2 this document - and tomorrow we'll see that it doesn't have the
3 authentication that it would necessarily have, because it doesn't show to
4 whom it was distributed and what have you, but rather says the chief of
5 staff and who we all know and will learn again tomorrow was not
6 there - but we see there is information being put on official documents or
7 what would appear to be official documents that are not correct. And
8 through this little exercise I'm trying to demonstrate several things.
9 One is the danger of circumstantial evidence. Because circumstantially
10 when we look at this, we can say, well, yes they could easily have
11 accomplished this task.
12 Number two, the Konjevic Polje thing, and I was rather light about
13 it, but it does draw one's attention. So this could give the wrong
14 impression that in reading this when we say "junction of Bratunac/Konjevic
15 Polje," one might think that this particular battalion was also
16 responsible for searching the terrain. And we know that at least in that
17 area there was some activity by MUP that had nothing to do with the
18 Bratunac Brigade. And so that's the other point that I'm trying to
19 demonstrate. And as I indicated, through this gentleman I'm trying to
20 show that, one, this order has some information that's not accurate, such
21 as to establish a command post that's already been established, to search
22 terrain which has already -- has always been clear because their line was
23 ahead of them. And I'm trying to show that perhaps when it comes time to
24 evaluate all of this evidence, we have to be very careful not to place too
25 much emphasis on what's written, because it may lead us down to the
1 wrong path. And this was a perfect opportunity, because the next
2 document -- you see, I have some more. They are all here, neatly piled
3 up. I'm going to go through one of the other maps, that famous map that
4 says "Colonel Zivanovic, zone of responsibility." We're going to have an
5 opportunity to look at that map again. Because of the title, we may think
6 that this is an official map that has some importance. Because it has
7 "zone of responsibility," it has been given a certain amount of
8 prominence by Mr. Butler --
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we understand the relevance of that.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: He asked me a question, Your Honour.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're not on to that topic yet.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, he asked me a question and he shouldn't ask
13 me questions if he doesn't want the full answer. I'm going to use this
14 again as a vehicle to get to that one to show that documents are
15 misleading, so when they pull out some logbook and say oh, so-and-so was
16 here, before we make that assumption that that was in fact -- a fact, we
17 should have perhaps other witnesses to corroborate it. That's all.
18 So it's -- there are no tricks, there are no tricks, just good
19 old-fashioned lawyering.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think it's time for the break.
21 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Do I get my three-minute's response, Your Honour?
23 I thought that was a lot more than why it was relevant. I don't feel a
24 need to, but ...
25 JUDGE LIU: Is it necessary? Maybe we could have it tomorrow
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't need to say anything, Your Honour, but I
3 appreciate that he's saying it's to show credibility of documents. And
4 that's what I was asking. All the rest of the speech wasn't really
5 necessary, but I think I don't need to rebut that. I think we understand
6 what's going on.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
8 And we'll continue the proceedings tomorrow morning at 9.00 in
9 Courtroom III. Yes. So the hearing for today is adjourned.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
11 at 7.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
12 the 2nd day of June, 2004,
13 at 9.00 a.m.