1 Friday, 4 June 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Before we hear
9 the next witness, are there any matters the parties would like to raise?
10 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.
11 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Karnavas, are there any protective
13 measures for the next witness?
14 MR. KARNAVAS: None, Your Honour, none.
15 JUDGE LIU: So we can start.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. And we'd like to welcome back Judge
17 Vassylenko. We're glad to have you.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
22 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
23 accordance with the paper Mr. Usher is showing to you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 WITNESS: DESIMIR BUCALINA
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. The witness is yours.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
7 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:
8 Q. Sir, can you hear me?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us your name.
11 A. My name is Desimir Bucalina.
12 Q. And could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.
13 A. B-U-C with a diacritic -A-L-I-N-A.
14 Q. Okay. I don't think you need to hold the headset. It will stay
15 on. There you go. Just relax.
16 July 1995, were you a member of the Bratunac Brigade?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would you please tell us in which unit you were serving.
19 A. I was a member of the military police of the Bratunac Brigade.
20 Q. And where exactly were you positioned?
21 A. At the Zuti Most checkpoint near Potocari.
22 Q. How long had you been at that post, sir?
23 A. From 1994 to the end, that means the 18th of March, 1996.
24 Q. Was there a commanding officer, a komandir, that was at the Zuti
25 Most while you were serving there?
1 A. Yes. It was Jovan Ivic.
2 Q. What was your relationship, and I'm speaking work-wise, with the
3 commander of the military police of the Bratunac Brigade?
4 A. I did not have any contacts with him.
5 Q. You did not report to him?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Who did you report to?
8 A. Jovo, as head of the checkpoint, related all the information
9 regarding the work of the checkpoint to Captain Nikolic.
10 Q. Now, when Jovo -- and we're speaking of -- who also has the name
11 the Russian, Rus, Ivic, when he was not there, who would you report to
13 A. Jovo worked at the checkpoint every day.
14 Q. Okay. If Momir Nikolic was not there, who would you report to or
15 who would Jovo report to?
16 A. You mean in relation to reports about the work of the checkpoint?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. If a problem occurred regarding the operation of the checkpoint,
19 he sought approval from superior command.
20 Q. Okay. When you say "superior command," we have to be precise
21 here. Are we speaking about the superior command of the Bratunac Brigade?
22 A. No. All information regarding the passage of convoys we received
23 from the headquarters in the corps command, and they were in charge of all
24 the information, the corps command.
25 Q. All right. To what extent was the commander of the Bratunac
1 Brigade involved in matters related to convoys or passage through the Zuti
3 A. No, he was not at all involved in the population of Zuti Most.
4 Q. Now, could you please explain to us, when you say "control," what
5 exactly do you mean by that?
6 A. When I say "control" or checking of convoys, I mean this: We
7 received in advance an overview of the passage of convoys in and out of
8 the enclave, so we checked the number of people, the equipment they were
9 carrying, and the freight on them.
10 Q. Now, this advance overview, would that be similar to a manifest, a
11 bill of lading?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Where would you receive this advance overview from?
14 A. From the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska.
15 Q. And how would you compare the advance overview, this document that
16 you had, with the -- the convoy itself? If you could be as concrete as
17 you could.
18 A. When the convoy would come in, we would know exactly how many
19 people were coming in, the time of arrival and departure, and the contents
20 of what they were carrying.
21 Q. Would you check the contents of the convoy?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What if inside the convoy there were contents that were not
24 reflected on the advance overview or were contents deemed as contraband?
25 What would you do then?
1 A. Jovo, as the leader of the checkpoint, would find Mr. Nikolic, and
2 Mr. Nikolic then decided how to deal with the problem.
3 Q. Now, these convoys, from before arriving to the Zuti Most, from
4 how many different checkpoints would they be coming from?
5 A. Depending on whether they were arriving via Yugoslavia or from
6 Kiseljak. If they were coming via Yugoslavia, there was a checkpoint in
7 Karakaj, Zvornik, and in most cases the convoys were escorted by the
8 military police from Zvornik, and the checks were only routine on our part
9 because they were not allowed to pile up. They had come under escort
11 And if they were coming from Kiseljak, I don't know if there were
12 any other checkpoints before Zuti Most.
13 Q. All right. I want to go step-by-step and I would like you to slow
14 down because it makes it easier for the translation.
15 So if it's coming from Yugoslavia, the first checkpoint would be
16 Karakaj; correct?
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. And I take it from your experience in these matters that was --
19 the contents would be controlled, matched, that is, with the advance
20 overview, this manifest, versus what was in the convoy itself. Is that
21 your understanding?
22 A. Yes, unless they were convoys under the escort of the military
24 Q. All right. Let me -- let me make sure that I -- I want to go
25 step-by-step. I'm speaking about Karakaj now. When the convoy comes in
1 at Karakaj --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- are you saying there were some convoys that were under the
4 escort of military police, or are you saying that after leaving Karakaj
5 the convoy would be escorted by military police toward the Zuti Most?
6 A. Yes. The escort of the military police was from Karakaj to Zuti
8 Q. All right. To make sure that I'm clear with my former question,
9 when the convoy would come in from Yugoslavia to Karakaj, is it my
10 understanding that at that point, at that first checkpoint, the convoy
11 would be controlled? In other words, the manifest checked with the
12 contents of the convoy.
13 A. Yes, precisely.
14 Q. And then if there was a military escort with that convoy, upon
15 arrival at the Zuti Most it would be more or less a pro forma checking and
16 off the convoy would go?
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
18 MR. WAESPI: Yes. For a while Mr. Karnavas has been leading, and
19 that's just the latest example of that.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm trying to clear the matter, but that's okay,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: I believe you have a better way to put your question.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, yes, yes.
24 Q. Once it cleared Karakaj, from there, assuming that there was a --
25 a military police escort, as you've testified already, once the convoy
1 arrived at the Zuti Most, please tell us how detailed of a control or a
2 checking of the contents of the convoy would take place at the Zuti Most.
3 A. We only recorded the passage of convoys and, without detaining
4 them, we let them through.
5 Q. And that would be pro forma, then, would it not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Now, if the convoy came from the other direction, the other
8 checkpoint, the other border crossing which was -- again, what was that
10 A. From the direction of Kiseljak.
11 Q. At that -- at that particular -- with those particular convoys, to
12 what extent would the controlling process be?
13 A. That depended on the size of the convoy. They would stay at the
14 checkpoint from 30 minutes to 90 minutes, depending on how long it took to
15 inspect them.
16 Q. As part of the controlling process, did you have authority to
17 prevent goods for humanitarian aid to go into the enclave?
18 A. No, not if their papers were in order.
19 Q. All right. If the papers were in order, were you allowed to take
20 goods out? In other words, to try to starve the people in Srebrenica?
21 You know, engage in convoy terrorism, as some may have suggested on
22 previous occasions?
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, what kind of question are you
24 asking this witness?
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, I think this is just --
1 JUDGE LIU: It's very suggestive, very suggestive.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Well --
3 Q. Could you or did you at any point in time take out foodstuffs,
4 humanitarian aid, from the convoys so that those goods could not reach
5 their intended destinations?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you ever ordered by Colonel Blagojevic to do that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What about Momir Nikolic; did he ever order you to do that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right. Now, speaking about Momir Nikolic, what was his rank?
12 A. He had the rank of captain.
13 Q. How was he addressed in front of the Dutch Battalion, his
15 A. He told us then when Dutch soldiers were around the checkpoint, we
16 should address him as Major Nikolic.
17 Q. And did you address him as Major Nikolic?
18 A. Yes, although it was Jovo who did most of the talking with him.
19 Q. All right. And I take it the purpose for addressing him as a
20 major in front of the Dutch was to give the impression to his Dutch
21 counterparts --
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: I mean, it's obvious that's a leading question. I
24 mean, everyone in this courtroom knows what the purpose is in this line of
1 JUDGE LIU: I don't think this question is necessary. Or you
2 maybe find another way to put it.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: I think I made the point. I got the reaction which
4 was intended, Your Honour. Now --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: If counsel is acknowledging that he's deliberately
8 asking improper questions in order to bait the Prosecution, I think
9 something should be done about that. And that's exactly what he's done.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you, Mr. McCloskey.
11 Mr. Karnavas, I think the question you ask has a point, but the
12 problem is that you don't have to bring any other things into the contents
13 of your question, especially those could be -- if they offend the other
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, it shouldn't offend the other party
16 since they've claimed he was an honest and truthful witness. That was
17 before they had this other witness who also allegedly perjured himself.
18 So these are the points that I'm trying to make, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE LIU: I think that's a false statement.
20 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just -- this issue has been over and over and over
22 again. Mr. Nikolic admitted this, and the liaison officers in the VRS did
23 this constantly, as do security and intel. people in armies everywhere.
24 This and many of the other issues we're seeing have been done over and
25 over and over again. We haven't said anything about that, but when it
1 comes to deliberately baiting the lawyers, and, "Oh, I got the reaction,"
2 this kind of unprofessional, childlike attitude is just demeaning the
3 courtroom and it's -- I just don't know what else to say.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, the whole purpose was to demonstrate
5 how the Prosecution continually tries to protect Mr. Nikolic. Mr. Nikolic
6 was able to convince the whole world that he was a major. In other words,
7 he is a clever -- I don't know what other word to use, you know. I mean,
8 he is clever in being dishonest and he was able to sell his dishonesty to
9 the Prosecution and the Prosecution has been trying to sell it to the
10 Tribunal, and that's what I'm trying to demonstrate, and when they get the
11 reactions because it hurts them.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is absolutely outrageous what this man
13 continues to say. He should be told to sit down and stop it. You know,
14 this is a dead issue, and for him to just continually -- he wants me to
15 get down in the mud with him, and I will try to resist it. I apologise.
16 JUDGE LIU: I think that's a good choice.
17 Mr. Karnavas, I think we have come across this issue for many
18 times in the past, and you have already made your point there. The
19 problem is not to persuade the Prosecution. The problem is to let us to
20 understand your point.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: I think that anything that's overdone will do harm to
23 your position.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE LIU: Please move on.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes.
2 Q. Now, I want to talk about -- focus your attention on July 1995,
3 and I would like to focus your attention on a narrow period, July 6 being
4 the day when the events concerning Srebrenica commenced, July 11th we know
5 is a fixed day, is when Srebrenica fell. So starting with July 6, on or
6 about that period did you, sir, receive any special instructions, orders,
7 or information about any events concerning Srebrenica?
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. From where you were located on the 6th of July, did
10 you notice any troop movement, any soldiers coming through the Zuti Most
11 to try to attack, for instance, the DutchBat, or try to capture Potocari
12 or advance towards Srebrenica from that direction?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, what about the 7th? Were there --
15 A. No.
16 Q. What about the 8th?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What about the 9th?
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right. July 10th?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us about what time it would have been
23 on the 10th that you noticed something unusual, and then you'll describe
24 to us what it was you noticed.
25 A. Sometime in the evening, it could have been 7.00 or 8.00 p.m., a
1 group of men in camouflage uniforms whom I didn't know arrived. I later
2 learned they were members of the special police unit of the MUP of
3 Republika Srpska. They stayed for about 15 or 20 minutes at the
4 checkpoint, consulting or reaching an agreement about the operation of
5 that unit for the next day, for the 11th.
6 Q. All right. First of all, did you recognise these soldiers?
7 A. I recognised one of them.
8 Q. Could you please tell us who it was that you recognised.
9 A. It was Ljubisa Borovcanin.
10 Q. Did you know him from before?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. All right. Now, do you know whether the men that were there were
13 there with Mr. Borovcanin?
14 A. They were with him, but I don't know these people.
15 Q. So they were -- all right. You did not recognise any of them
16 being from -- from the Bratunac area?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you. Did they come up to the Zuti Most to give any orders
19 or make any requests?
20 A. No, they did not. They did not talk to us at all. They stood
21 close to the Zuti Most checkpoint, and they were consulting, conferring
22 about something, but they were not issuing any orders concerning us.
23 Q. That particular night, July 10th, where do you spend?
24 A. At the Zuti Most checkpoint.
25 Q. Now, on the 11th, the day that Srebrenica fell, were you there at
1 the Zuti Most the entire day?
2 A. I was at Zuti Most sometime up until 11.00. I don't remember
3 exactly, but it was when Captain Nikolic left one person at the checkpoint
4 at Zuti Most, whereas the three of us left for Potocari on the mission of
5 helping the evacuation, at least that's what Nikolic hold us, of the
6 civilian population that was supposed to go to the territory held by the
7 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 Q. All right. Let me stop you here. Now, I'm speaking about the
9 11th of July. On that particular day, we know Srebrenica fell, and we
10 know the following day that buses arrived in Potocari. So that when -- in
11 speaking about the day that Nikolic asked you to go into Potocari, was
12 that the day that the buses arrived, or was it the day before the buses
14 A. Nikolic told us to go on the first day of the evacuation, when the
15 evacuation started.
16 Q. So that would be the 12th. But the preceding day --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The preceding day, did you see anything unusual on that day at the
19 Zuti Most; any fighting, any advancement of troops, any attacking of the
20 Dutch Battalion?
21 A. On the 11th, a unit of the special police started, set off from
22 the direction of Zuti Most towards the UNPROFOR base, but I don't know if
23 there was any fighting. I don't think there was.
24 Q. Did you notice any de-mining going on at that area?
25 A. No. Only in the morning one of the members of the special unit
1 came across a mine to the right of the Zuti Most.
2 Q. And was that that day, the 11th, the day before the evacuation
4 A. Yes, the 11th.
5 Q. All right. Now, on the 12th -- by the way, on the 11th where did
6 you spend the night?
7 A. I spent the night of the 11th at the Zuti Most checkpoint.
8 Q. On the 12th now, would you please tell us where you were in the
10 A. At the checkpoint.
11 Q. I believe you indicated earlier that Momir Nikolic came sometime
12 in the morning; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you please tell us when he came what, if anything, did he
16 A. He told us that Jovan Ivic was to remain at the checkpoint, and
17 the remaining three men should set off towards Potocari in order to secure
18 an unhindered passage of the people who were supposed to be evacuated to
19 the territory under the control of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 Q. And did you do that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did Momir Nikolic at that point in time express the importance of
23 his position, if indeed he held one at that point in time?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did he ever say that he had been -- he was to be the coordinator
1 of this entire event that was going on in Potocari?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now, when you got to Potocari, could you please tell us, first of
4 all, how far did you go? Because we understand Potocari is a rather large
6 A. We came behind the UNPROFOR base headquartered at the battery
7 factory, across the Faros factory. So the distance between the gates of
8 these two factories was about 30 metres.
9 Q. And when you got there, could you please tell us what you saw.
10 A. There was a cordon of the Dutch Battalion members, and behind them
11 was a mass, a huge crowd of people.
12 Q. And what were you instructed to do once you got there?
13 A. Nothing. Just to provide a secure exit and to prevent any
14 problems from occurring while those people were boarding the buses.
15 Q. Now, who gave you those instructions?
16 A. Nikolic.
17 Q. Where was it when he gave you these instructions? Where were you
19 A. When he came to the checkpoint and took us to Potocari, he told us
20 what our mission was.
21 Q. Well, how did you know where to stand?
22 A. He told us to join the Dutch soldiers who were standing in front
23 of us.
24 Q. How far were you from the Dutch soldiers?
25 A. We were right next to them. In fact, we were in the same line
1 with them.
2 Q. Would it be fair to say that you were doing the same thing that
3 the Dutch soldiers were doing?
4 A. Exactly the same.
5 Q. Were you ever told to abuse anyone over there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you see the Dutch soldiers abusing anyone over there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you see any VRS, members of the VRS, or members of the MUP
10 abusing anyone while you were over there?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, how long were you in Potocari standing next to the Dutch
14 A. Approximately until the afternoon, by which time a considerable
15 number of people left Potocari.
16 Q. Now, before we speak about what you did next, could you please
17 tell us, when you were in Potocari, did you see any higher echelon
18 officers there?
19 A. There were officers, but the only man that I recognised was
20 General Mladic.
21 Q. How close were you to General Mladic?
22 A. Not very far. He passed by me when he came to address the
23 civilians, and he was some 15 or 20 metres away from me.
24 Q. Were you able to hear what General Mladic was saying to the
25 civilians there?
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. All right. Did you believe General Mladic?
3 A. Absolutely.
4 Q. Now, you said at some point that you were -- you said earlier that
5 you were at this line next to the Dutch, performing the same duties that
6 the Dutch were doing up until early afternoon. Could you please tell us,
7 where did you go after that? What did you do?
8 A. I went closer to the centre of Potocari, which is some 100 -- 200
9 metres from the point where the factory compound was.
10 Q. And what was the purpose for moving your position, going to that
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note we didn't get the name of the
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An acquaintance of mine told me that
15 in that area my direct superior from the company where I worked and my
16 high school professor was, and I simply wanted to see that woman.
17 MR. KARNAVAS:
18 Q. All right. First of all, what was the name of the factory that
19 you indicated earlier?
20 A. Where this woman was?
21 Q. Yes, yes. You indicated you went closer to the centre. So what
22 was the name of the factory that you went to? We need it for the record.
23 A. The galvanising factory, the compound of the galvanising factory.
24 Q. All right. Now, did you receive an order from anyone to leave
25 your position, where you were next to the Dutch, and to go searching for
1 your former director and former professor from high school?
2 A. No. Nobody told me anything.
3 Q. Did you find the woman?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Could you please tell us her name.
6 A. Dzevahira Maric.
7 Q. Maric or Paric?
8 A. Paric.
9 Q. And could you please tell us with whom she was.
10 A. She was with her husband, a son who was 13 or 14 years old, and a
11 two-year-old daughter.
12 Q. All right. Did you speak to her?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Would you please describe to us what exactly the two of you spoke
16 A. We talked as acquaintances and friends about everything. She
17 asked about my family, where they were, what they were doing, and she
18 asked me, if possible, to go to her house - she gave me the key - and to
19 collect her family albums and to bring them to her.
20 Q. All right. Did she ask you any other questions?
21 A. Given that she had heard General Mladic's speech, she told me that
22 she didn't want to separate from her husband, and she wanted to know what
23 she was supposed to do in such situation.
24 Q. Did you give her any advice or any suggestions?
25 A. I just told her that if she wanted to leave the enclave together
1 with him, then she should spend the night in Potocari and to leave
2 together on the following day.
3 Q. Why did you give her that advice?
4 A. I don't know what else I could have told her. She simply didn't
5 want to separate from him. So what other option was there? That was the
6 only way for them to travel together.
7 Q. When you told her to just stay overnight and then the following
8 day go with her husband, why were you suggesting that she spend the night
10 A. Because it was a known fact that the whole evacuation could not
11 have been completed in one day.
12 Q. All right. Why not suggest to her to go with her husband on that
13 day, the first day, to try to get on the bus to leave?
14 A. The evacuation was nearly over. I don't know exactly by which
15 time it went on.
16 Q. All right. Well, when you told her to wait until the following
17 day to board the bus with her husband, did you believe what you were
18 telling her?
19 A. I absolutely did.
20 Q. Now, did she ask anything else from you other than seeing if you
21 could go to her house and take her photo album?
22 A. Already in the afternoon, I don't know who organised bread and
23 water to be brought in, I gave her bread, but she asked me if I could
24 supply her with cigarettes.
25 Q. Where did you find the bread?
1 A. Bread was brought from Bratunac in trucks, and it was distributed
2 to the people there in Potocari.
3 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us about what time you left
4 Potocari that day.
5 A. I can't say exactly. It could have been at around 5.30 or 6.00
6 p.m. or within that period.
7 Q. All right. Where did you go?
8 A. To the checkpoint.
9 Q. Where did you spend the night?
10 A. At the checkpoint.
11 Q. That afternoon while you were at the Zuti Most or going back to
12 the Zuti Most, did you notice any vehicles with only men in them?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All right. Now, when you got to the Zuti Most, were buses and
15 trucks still heading towards Bratunac?
16 A. I believe that for that day the evacuation was over.
17 Q. All right. The day that you were there, did you see any men being
18 separated from their families, physically separated?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you notice whether any men were being taken to a -- a house,
21 sort of a white house, as a collection point? Did you see that?
22 A. No, I didn't see that.
23 Q. Now, on the 13th, what did you do?
24 A. On the evening of the 12th, a man from the checkpoint went to
25 Bratunac because we didn't have facilities to sleep at the checkpoint, and
1 I asked him to go to my home and bring me cigarettes and some candies,
2 because on the day before that my professor's daughter had asked for some
3 candies, and I promised to bring them on the following day.
4 On the morning, he brought what I asked for, and sometime in the
5 morning I went again to Potocari and gave a pack -- pack of cigarettes to
6 her and some candies or cakes, if I remember correctly.
7 Q. Let me clarify one point. You said, "We did not have facilities
8 to sleep at the Zuti Most." I believe that's what you just stated.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Earlier you'd been telling us that you'd been staying there
11 overnight for several days.
12 A. Yes, but our internal agreement was that each one of us four would
13 go in the evening to change, to take a bath, and to bring whatever we
15 Q. All right. And I take it on that particular day, the night of the
16 12th, it was this gentleman's turn to go into Bratunac?
17 A. Well, we had an internal agreement. There was no particular
19 Q. Okay. Now, the next day, on the 13th, when you went to Potocari
20 with the cigarettes and the candy to give to your former director and
21 former professor, did you have permission to go to Potocari?
22 A. I didn't ask anyone.
23 Q. On that day, did Momir Nikolic show up to give orders to you or to
24 others to go into Potocari to continue to work next to DutchBat, standing
25 side by side, separating the crowd, seeing that they're getting onto the
1 buses in a safe manner?
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
3 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I mean, the appropriate question would be did
4 he continue to do the same as he did the day before, but this is certainly
5 a leading question.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: It's not leading, Your Honour, because, first of
7 all, he's already testified to this, and all I'm doing is looping. It's a
8 perfectly legitimate technique where you take an already-given answer from
9 the witness and you make it a form of the next question. It is factually
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think the problem is about your
12 characterisation of the manner.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: That's exactly what he said, Your Honour, that he
14 was ordered to. I'm not saying that everything was done that way, but he
15 was ordered --
16 JUDGE LIU: I know, I know, but it's whether the people were
17 getting on the bus in a safe manner or not.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: He was ordered to do that. That's what I'm saying,
19 that he was ordered to go and stand next to the DutchBat so that the
20 people could get onto the buses, not that the people were getting onto the
21 buses, but he was ordered to make sure.
22 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
24 MR. WAESPI: Mr. Karnavas certainly used the word "separations,"
25 and the witness at no point said there were separations. In fact, the
1 witness said there were no separations, and now Mr. Karnavas uses this
2 word which, as you know, is a sensitive word.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Who said the word is sensitive?
4 JUDGE LIU: I think that's a different matter. Maybe,
5 Mr. Karnavas, you should -- you should take it step-by-step.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll just rephrase, Your Honour. I think it might
7 be easier.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, rephrase it step-by-step.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
10 Q. Just remind us, the previous day, what was the concrete order that
11 you had been given by Momir Nikolic?
12 A. Are you referring to the 12th of July?
13 Q. The 12th.
14 A. The order was, therefore, that we should be there together with
15 the Dutch in order to prevent any commotion while people were getting on
16 the buses and trucks. That was the only order we received.
17 Q. Okay. On the 13th did you receive a similar order?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know whether Momir Nikolic ordered others?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. Do you know whether anyone else from the Zuti Most went back to
22 Potocari to continue the tasks that had been ordered to them the previous
23 day by Momir Nikolic?
24 A. No.
25 Q. On the 13th, sir, after you went back and you met with your former
1 professor, former director, gave her the cigarettes, gave her child the
2 candy, did you notice whether her husband was with her on that day, on
3 that morning when you were there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How long did you spend with them on that day?
6 A. Not too long. Maybe ten or 15 minutes.
7 Q. And what did you do after that?
8 A. I returned to the checkpoint.
9 Q. All right. Now, I want to go back a little bit and fill in a
10 little gap. On the night of the 12th to the 13th, was there a convoy or a
11 truck that was parked or that was stopped at the Zuti Most?
12 A. On the morning between 12th and the 13th -- or, rather, the night
13 between those two days, a truck remained at the checkpoint, and I know
14 that there was one man in the truck, but I'm not aware if there were other
15 men. And he was the man who had received medical treatment in Bratunac.
16 Q. Okay. When Jovo was there, the commanding officer of the
17 checkpoint, who would liaison with the counterparts, the Dutch? Who among
19 A. You mean in those particular days or in general?
20 Q. In general. Who would be responsible? Would each of you be
21 speaking, acting as a liaison officer with them or was there one
22 spokesperson dealing with the Dutch?
23 A. Jovo was the one, because he spoke a little English, and he
24 arranged meetings between Captain Nikolic, or if they requested a meeting
25 with Captain Nikolic, he was the one who carried the messages to and fro.
1 Q. On that day, on the 13th, did you see Captain Nikolic?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. All right. On that day, did you spend the night at the Zuti Most?
4 A. On the night of the 13th I did not spend at Zuti Most. I went
5 home to take a bath and change.
6 Q. And could you please tell us, how did you get home?
7 A. I walked from Zuti Most to my house.
8 Q. Where is your house located?
9 A. It is very close to the command, across the Kaolin factory in
10 Bratunac, some 200 metres from the command.
11 Q. Now, for those of us who haven't been to -- to Bratunac, as you
12 leave Potocari and you're heading towards Bratunac, there's an
13 intersection before you have to turn, make a left turn to head on toward
14 where the command post is, and that road takes you on to -- towards
15 Konjevic Polje; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At that intersection, am I correct in noting that as you go around
18 the intersection, almost right there, right across is the Hotel Fontana?
19 A. Yes, on the right-hand side of the junction.
20 Q. Right. Now, did you take that route on that night?
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 Q. Okay. Why not?
23 A. Because there's a shortcut before this curve, and it's a shorter
24 way to get home.
25 Q. That shortcut, I take it you would still have to at some point
1 make a left turn to take that shortcut; correct?
2 A. Yes. Yes. This street goes to the left.
3 Q. Right. And in fact, if we were to go there today, we would find
4 some shopping malls back there; butcher shops, I believe there's a bakery
5 over there as well at that location, hairdresser.
6 A. The shopping mall was constructed there with all these shops that
7 you mentioned.
8 Q. And the distance between where you would turn off to take the
9 shortcut to where the corner is located -- the intersection is located,
10 what are we talking about? How many metres are we talking about?
11 A. Approximately 200 metres.
12 Q. Now, if we were to follow the road itself, take the intersection
13 and head towards -- towards the Kaolin factory where the Bratunac Brigade
14 headquarters were, could you please tell us where the Vuk -- the Vuk
15 Karadzic school, or the school that was then called Vuk Karadzic, was
16 located? Would it be on the left side or the right side of the road?
17 A. On the right side of the road.
18 Q. And it's not right on the road, is it?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In fact, there's some distance to it.
21 A. Perhaps some 500, 600 metres. Maybe even more, I'm not sure.
22 Q. On that night when you went home taking that shortcut, did you
23 notice any buses or trucks full of Muslim males?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you become aware on that night that there were Muslim males
1 being held either in buses or trucks or the Vuk Karadzic school, for
3 A. When you turn into this street on my way home, I was stopped by
4 one of the members of the military police. I didn't know this young man,
5 boy; he was shorter than me. He told me, anyway, that we needed to go to
6 town to guard some people. I said I didn't want to do that, I was going
7 home to get some rest, and I went on my way. Later on I learned that
8 there were some people, but how many and what it was all about, I didn't
10 Q. Well, why didn't you want to go and guard? Was there any other --
11 did you say anything else to this gentleman?
12 A. Yes. The entire platoon of the military police was replaced in
13 April 1994 because two detainees had been taken out of our detention unit.
14 And referring to that, I said if I was unable to guard two Muslims in our
15 own detention centre, then I don't want to participate in this.
16 Q. All right. And incidentally, the two Muslims that were guarded,
17 that was at the detention right by the Bratunac Brigade military police;
19 A. Yes. In the same building, the building of the military police.
20 Q. How, with all those military police under the watchful eye of
21 Momir Nikolic, did they escape?
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, this is leading. I mean, even
24 earlier, you could have asked "Where was this detention centre?" and the
25 witness could have answered in his own words.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm trying to shorten the period, and I think we've
3 had testimony already that there was -- you know, even from previous
4 witnesses, that that's where they were, but ...
5 Q. Where was -- where was the detention centre?
6 A. It was right near the entrance of the building of the military
7 police. The right-hand side, there was a room where they were, the
8 detainees, and opposite their room was the place of the duty officer, the
9 duty policeman.
10 Q. What happened to these detainees?
11 A. I would like to know too, but I just did not manage to find out.
12 With the fall of Srebrenica, people got hold of certain papers where some
13 details were indicated, including the way they got out and other things
14 that I did not get access to. But I know that their departure was
15 organised. They were practically not really detained. They were in a
16 room without bars on the windows; it was not a typical prison.
17 Q. Was Momir Nikolic still in charge of security and intelligence at
18 that time?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And were you a member of the military police at that time?
21 A. I was deputy commander of the military police.
22 Q. And what happened to you as a result of the vanishing of these two
23 so-called prisoners?
24 A. They wanted to arrest the policemen who were on duty that night,
25 but since they were absolutely convinced that none of the military police
1 had a hand in it, we did not allow the arrest of those men, and we wanted
2 clarification. We wanted the truth to come out. However, a Solomon
3 solution was found after a tug-of-war that lasted about ten days, and the
4 platoon of the military police in that composition was disbanded.
5 Q. And where were you sent?
6 A. Considering that the zone of responsibility of the Bratunac
7 Brigade covered three battalions, people tried to stay closer to home, and
8 a solution was found wherein some people would go to the 1st and the 2nd
9 Battalion, whereas the 3rd Battalion was a problem because it was the most
10 remote from Bratunac and nobody wanted to go there. And to stop all this
11 agony that lasted ten to 15 days, I said I would go, and then another four
12 or five policemen came with me.
13 Q. How was it that you got back to being a military police officer
14 since you were basically dismissed from your position, if I understand you
16 A. Yes. Let me just say one thing: Even after the military police
17 platoon was disbanded, an offer was made to me to stay in the military
18 police, and I left, together with the other soldiers. And to avoid the
19 continuation of this problem, Momir Nikolic put me back on the checkpoint,
20 but this time he told me I would do only regular police business. No
21 arrests, no detentions, just the normal police work.
22 Q. All right. Whose suggestion was it that you go to the Zuti Most
23 checkpoint? Who suggested it?
24 A. Momir Nikolic.
25 Q. Based on his suggestion, he made it possible for you to just be
1 there at the Zuti Most?
2 A. It must have been an agreement with the commander of the 3rd
4 Q. All right. Okay. Now that we covered that little detour, let's
5 go back to the 13th.
6 On the morning -- you said you spent the night at home on the
7 13th. On the morning of the 14th did you notice any buses or trucks in
9 A. No.
10 Q. Sometime after the fall of Srebrenica - September, October - we've
11 heard testimony that there was this rather significant activity going on
12 with respect to a reburial process. Were you at any point in time asked
13 to assist in those activities?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. Now, getting back to your former professor and former
16 director, the woman that you gave bread to on the one day, on the 12th,
17 and then went back to give cigarettes and candy to her children, she'd
18 asked you to go to her house, gave you the key for you to go to her house
19 in Srebrenica to look for the photo album. Did you do that?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Now, could you please tell us about when it was that you went into
22 Srebrenica to locate her house.
23 A. I'm not sure, but I think it could have been on the 15th or the
24 16th of July.
25 Q. Were you able to locate the photo album?
1 A. No. When I arrived, the house had already been opened, and there
2 was no electricity in the basement, where she said the photo albums were,
3 and I was unable to find them.
4 Q. All right. What did you do with the keys to the house?
5 A. The keys to the house, I gave them to Mr. Petko Rakic, who, after
6 the fall of Srebrenica went to the Srebrenica Crisis Staff. But I told
7 him, since all the villages around Srebrenica were destroyed, that that
8 house should be given to somebody for use, for temporary use, to
9 accommodate somebody, because -- until we see what to do with it.
10 Q. All right. Now, did you ever have contact again with this woman?
11 A. Yes. She called me in the autumn of 1995. She called me on the
12 phone at home, and she was making inquiries about her husband and son. I
13 didn't see her husband and son in Potocari, but she said they had not
14 reached Tuzla, and she wanted to know if I knew anything. I said I didn't
15 know anything, and if I had known, I would have told her because she
16 deserved that much. I just told her when she said that there were some
17 people in the mine of Sase, I told her it wasn't true, but I had no other
18 information to give her.
19 Q. All right. Let me stop you here, because at least on the
20 translation here it says that you did not see her -- her husband and son
21 in Potocari.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, did you see her husband on the 12th and the 13th when you
24 went to Potocari?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You also indicated that she had a son with her at the time, and I
2 believe you thought he was 12 or 13 years old, somewhere in that ballpark
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was that the same husband and the same son that she was making
6 inquiries about?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well -- well, let's take it step-by-step. It was the same husband
9 she was talking about?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. But I take it it was a different son that she was asking about.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How well did you know this family?
14 A. Very well. I knew them from when we were in school until 1992.
15 They were even guests at my wedding.
16 Q. All right. Now, when she made this inquiry and you indicated to
17 her that you didn't have any information, did you try to find any
18 information for her to see whether you could locate or learn what had
19 happened to her husband and to her one son?
20 A. I tried through people who participated in the transport of the
21 civilian population. However, I was unable to find out anything.
22 Q. All right. Well, before we go into any more details with respect
23 to the efforts that you made and the contacts that you've had with this --
24 this woman, I believe it might be time for a break, and I don't have much
25 more, just so --
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. If you request --
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, it's the time.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will have our break, and we will resume at
4 quarter to eleven.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. Please continue.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
9 Q. Now, before we left off, we were speaking about you having been
10 contacted by your former director, former professor, the woman that you
11 had seen in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th. Do you recall about when,
12 what year it was that she contacted you?
13 A. 1995.
14 Q. And how was that contact made?
15 A. She found my home telephone number and called me.
16 Q. And did you meet with her on that occasion?
17 A. No. When I answered the phone, she told me that if I was
18 expecting to have any problems because of that telephone conversation,
19 that I should hang up, and she was hoping that I didn't change in the
20 meantime and that our relationship hadn't changed.
21 Q. All right. Well, why would she think that you might have some
22 problems because of a telephone conversation?
23 A. Maybe she thought that my telephone was bugged and that it could
24 be a problem.
25 Q. All right. Now, did you eventually meet with her?
1 A. Yes. When I started to work in Srebrenica, I'm not sure any more
2 whether it was in 1997, 1998, or 1999, but I met up with her.
3 Q. All right. And what was the nature of the meeting at that point?
4 A. We just talked. She inquired about my family, what we were doing,
5 how we were doing. It was an informal conversation. We didn't go back to
7 Q. And I take it that her husband and her son are still missing.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Now, I want to go back, take you back a little bit to
10 the 12th of July. Here this woman had come to you, or you had -- you had
11 met with her, and had asked you what to do, and you had given her some
12 advice, that is to stay overnight and as a family go in the next day to
13 wherever the buses were going. How did you feel, knowing that perhaps you
14 had given her the wrong advice?
15 A. What can I say? I thought it was the only thing I could tell her
16 at the time. But later on, when I found out her husband and son were
17 missing, I had a hard time, especially during our encounter after 1995,
18 because - how can I say this? - it's a family tragedy. I didn't have the
19 heart to tell her. I didn't know what to tell her. Whatever I said would
20 be superfluous.
21 Q. All right. Now, I want to switch to just a couple of other
22 matters. I'm going to hit some topics very quickly so we can wrap it up.
23 Just going back to those two prisoners that we talked about earlier, the
24 ones that were at the Bratunac Brigade facility back in 1994. I just want
25 to make sure that we're clear. Were they taken away to be executed?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Where were they taken away to?
3 A. To the territory under the control of the army of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina, the area of Srebrenica.
5 Q. And am I correct in noting that in light of what happened
6 afterwards, that is people getting dismissed, the ongoing investigation of
7 who was responsible and what have you, that this was sort of mysteriously
9 A. Precisely.
10 Q. Okay. Now, we spoke a little bit about Momir Nikolic. Did you --
11 were you ever contacted by his lawyers? This is when Momir Nikolic was
12 still --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Did you give them a statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I have the statement here in front of me. It's dated 15 April
17 2003. Would that be about the time that you received the statement --
18 that you gave the statement?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Now, on April 15, 2003, do you recall what the lawyers were
21 asking you, what sort of information they wanted you to provide in a
22 statement for them to give to the Office of the Prosecution or to the
23 Court in relation to Momir Nikolic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In your statement, do you recall being asked any information as to
1 whether Momir Nikolic organised or coordinated the evacuation of the
2 civilians from Potocari?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In fact, that was concretely asked of you, was it not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. This was back on April 15, 2003, a date that might become
7 significant at the closing argument.
8 Now, could you please tell us what you told his lawyers and what
9 they took down as a statement back then with respect to Momir Nikolic
10 being an organiser or coordinator of the evacuation of the civilians from
12 A. I think I said he was not the one who was able to plan, organise,
13 and do all that. It was an order from the superior command. And when I
14 say "superior command," that means the Main Staff and the corps command.
15 Q. Now, when you expressed that opinion he did not organise or
16 coordinate the evacuation, what was that opinion based on?
17 A. I know Captain Nikolic rather well. I got to know him rather well
18 in 1992, but I knew him even before that. In the period between 1992 and
19 1995, I got to know him rather well. I don't think he was able to do all
20 that from the procurement of the means of transportation to the evacuation
21 of the population itself.
22 Q. All right. Did you by any chance run into any of his lawyers that
23 had come to you seeking such -- such a statement prior to when he changed
24 his position?
25 All right. You didn't hear it. Let me repeat the question.
1 Did you run into his lawyers after you gave this statement?
2 A. Yes. I did come across a man who brought me into contact with his
3 Defence counsel. It was Stanko Petrovic from Bratunac.
4 Q. All right. And in fact, that's one of the individuals whose name
5 is on the statement that you signed, is it not?
6 A. Yes. He was present when I gave the statement. I gave the
7 statement in his office.
8 Q. Now, was this -- was this after Momir Nikolic -- or it became
9 known that Momir Nikolic had changed his position here in court?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you please tell us, what exchange did you have with
12 Mr. Petrovic, one of Momir Nikolic's -- one member of Momir Nikolic's
13 Defence team? What was the exchange that you had with him with respect to
14 the statement that they had asked you to give and in fact you had given
15 only weeks before Momir Nikolic changed his plea?
16 A. I simply asked him what happened all of a sudden. The man who
17 said during his plea bargain that he was not guilty, and I think he was
18 not guilty of the job that he then admitted to having done, and he made me
19 look like somebody who, when giving the statement, was not telling the
20 truth, whereas I knew exactly what happened, and the answer was that he
21 didn't know. The lawyer didn't know.
22 Q. All right. In light of your experience being there on the ground,
23 witnessing what you saw, knowing Momir Nikolic, his background, where he
24 would pretend to be a major when in fact he wasn't, getting others to say
25 he was a major when he was not, in light of all of that, when you heard
1 what Momir Nikolic had said with respect to his activities in Potocari,
2 did you form an opinion as to whether Momir Nikolic was being honest or
3 dishonest with the Trial Chamber, with the Tribunal?
4 A. I don't think he was honest.
5 Q. Okay. Now, where have you been all these years after Srebrenica,
6 the fall of Srebrenica, after 1995? Where are you been?
7 A. After I was demob'd on the 18th of March, 1996, I took up my
8 earlier job in the company where I worked before the outbreak of the
10 Q. Where was that, sir?
11 A. That was the social accountancy service, the development bank, the
12 social accountancy service being the government auditing service.
13 Q. Okay. That's like a payment bureau? It's commonly referred to as
14 the payment bureau?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And where is that located?
17 A. Just opposite the SUP building, which is the secretariat of the
19 Q. Yes, but which town are we speaking about?
20 A. In Srebrenica.
21 Q. Okay. And incidentally, just while I'm at this, what is your
22 level of your education?
23 A. I have completed post-secondary school of economics.
24 Q. Okay. Now, I notice that at one point the Office of the
25 Prosecution did speak with you; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. From the statement, it says that it was on 21 February 2004. Is
3 that right?
4 A. I don't remember the date, but, yes, possibly.
5 Q. It was this year?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It wasn't in 1996 or 1997 or 1998 or 1999, or 2000, 2001, 2002,
8 2003, it was 2004 that they were able to track you down in Srebrenica?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Had you been asked prior to this occasion to meet with the
11 Office of the Prosecution and you had perhaps been avoiding them, going to
12 work incognito maybe?
13 A. No. Nobody got in touch with me.
14 Q. Now, did they get in touch with you on this occasion or did you
15 learn that they were looking for you? Which of the two?
16 A. They did not get in touch with me, but I heard through my friends
17 that somebody from the Bratunac police told him that I was supposed to go
18 and be interviewed.
19 Q. All right. And so how were you interviewed?
20 A. I had expected an official summons. However, it never arrived. I
21 quite simply went to the police station on my own will to see whether
22 there was any need for me to go there or not. And when I asked the duty
23 officer at the police station, he said that he didn't know either,
24 however, but that there were the Tribunal investigators on the upper
25 floor, so I went upstairs.
1 Q. All right. And I take it when you went upstairs you introduced
3 A. Yes. The interpreter asked me if I was the person in question,
4 and we did the interview.
5 Q. All right. So you on your own contacted them to give a statement
6 of any potential information that you might have that might interesting to
7 them about this case, some nine years after the incident.
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Now, in the -- what was given to us from the Office of the
10 Prosecution, which I believe I've given you a copy of, it is literally a
11 page and a half. I mean, if we exclude the front page. Or actually two
12 pages, two pages. Let's be fair. Two pages.
13 Was this interview tape recorded by any chance?
14 A. I didn't notice. If they did something, I didn't notice.
15 Q. And it states here that the interview took place from 1500 hours
16 to 1745 hours. That would be, if my math serves me correctly, two hours
17 and 45 minutes, the period of which you were being questioned of which two
18 pages of notes were generated.
19 My first question is: Did the interview that you had gone -- gone
20 to, did it last for two hours and 45 minutes to your recollection?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you please tell us, how long do you believe or know, which
23 of the two, this interview lasted?
24 A. I think, together with a 15-minute break, not more than one and a
25 half hours.
1 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, sir. Yes, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE LIU: I seek your assistance in this issue. I fail to see
4 the relevance of your questions to this case.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, this is all I have. I don't know if
6 anything else exists. I only have one or two more questions. I mean, the
7 gentleman indicated to me that it didn't take -- it didn't last that long.
8 Now, why they've represented two hours and 45 minutes when it should be an
9 hour and a half, I don't know. We don't have a tape recorded statement.
10 I don't know what -- what else they may produce, if anything, but I just
11 wanted to get this detail in after the gentleman leaves in the event that
12 some other witness shows up on rebuttal.
13 JUDGE LIU: Sometimes we got the proofing notes with only a half
14 page, you know, and we spend two hours and three hours with this witness.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree, Your Honour. I agree. But I'm not the
16 Office of the Prosecution with an armada of talent behind them, you know,
17 and a war chest as well.
18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, try to finish your direct examination by
19 asking two or three questions.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: I will. But it hadn't been lost on me too that I
21 had been submitting two-page statements.
22 Q. In your -- in your statement, sir, I notice that there's no
23 indication about your meeting with your former director, former professor,
24 in Potocari on -- on that particular day. Can you give us an
1 A. Either they didn't ask me or it was not interpreted correctly.
2 Q. All right. That's all. I have no further questions, sir. I want
3 that thank you very, very much for being frank and complete with me. The
4 Prosecution will probably have some questions, no doubt, perhaps the
5 Judges, if you could be as frank and as complete with them as you have
6 been with me, I would most appreciate it.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas. Mr. Stojanovic, do you have
10 any questions to put to this witness?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good
12 morning, Mr. Desimir. We have no questions for this witness.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Any cross-examination,
14 Mr. Waespi?
15 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, there will be some. And I may be
16 using, not as an exhibit but in private session, a witness statement which
17 we had disclosed I think back in January with this witness, and I have a
18 courtesy copy for Mr. Karnavas which I can give to him right now, but we
19 won't be using it in open session.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bucalina. It won't take too long as I just have
23 a few issues to clarify with you.
24 Now, first of all, when exactly did you resume or did you start
25 your duties at the Zuti Most checkpoint? When was that?
1 A. I think sometime in 1994, the autumn of 1994. I'm not sure about
2 the month.
3 Q. And I think you told us that the corps had control over this,
4 controlled the checkpoint. Now, did the corps always, while you were
5 there, have control over that checkpoint?
6 A. Can you be more specific? I don't quite understand the question.
7 Q. I believe you told us this morning that it was the corps who had
8 control over the checkpoint. Do you remember that?
9 A. We received papers from the corps, and the person in charge of
10 everything that took place at the checkpoint on behalf of the brigade was
11 Momir Nikolic.
12 Q. And because you received papers from the corps, that led to your
13 assumption that it was the corps who controlled the checkpoint; is that
15 A. I wouldn't agree with that.
16 Q. So how would you state it then? I'm just asking you to clarify.
17 A. I said that the people who manned the checkpoint were members of
18 the Bratunac Brigade and reported to Captain Nikolic, and he then reported
19 further on to the corps and the corps to the staff, and vice versa, the
20 documents travelled the opposite way, which means that all the approvals
21 came from the Main Staff via the corps to the brigade and finally to the
23 Q. Now, did that policy, the way you outlined it, did that change
24 while you were there or was it always like that?
25 A. It was always like that.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Let me go to the next issue. I believe you
2 told us that on the 12th of July in Potocari, when you saw the crowd of
3 people, you saw General Mladic passing behind you, I believe you said, and
4 addressing the crowd of civilians. You remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now -- and Mr. Karnavas asked you whether you believed what
7 General Mladic said, and you said absolutely. Do you remember that?
8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. Would you tell us what General Mladic said? So can you tell the
10 Trial Chamber what General Mladic said that you believed as being true?
11 A. He said that since the evacuation was not possible to be completed
12 in one day of the whole Potocari population, and because they had to spend
13 the night outdoors, that he was going first to send off the women and
14 children and then the remaining population on the following day.
15 Q. And the remaining population meaning including the men?
16 A. Including the men but also not all the women and children were
17 able to leave on the first day.
18 Q. Yes, but what you said you believed to be absolutely true was that
19 the whole population, including the men, would be, in your words,
20 evacuated. That was your understanding of what you heard from General
22 A. Exactly.
23 Q. Now, did you hear General Mladic on TV the day before, the day he
24 entered Srebrenica, did you hear him saying on TV --
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may. If he could establish a
1 foundation first, whether this was on TV at the time when he was at his
2 home watching TV or whether there was a TV at the checkpoint.
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think that's necessary.
4 You may proceed, Mr. Waespi.
5 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much.
6 Q. Mladic said on TV, and we heard it, we saw in fact a clip in this
7 courtroom, and I quote: "The time has come to take revenge on the Turks
8 in this region."
9 Now, would that change your opinion of whether General Mladic had
10 no harm in mind when he addressed the civilians as you said you had
11 witnessed? Would that change your mind?
12 A. Probably, but I don't know about this statement of his.
13 Q. And just a few hours before you met General Mladic, he was sitting
14 down with representatives of the civilian population in the Hotel Fontana,
15 and there he said, and I quote again that: "The Muslim population can
16 'either survive or disappear,'" and then he continued on and said if they
17 didn't surrender, the armed men, the weapons.
18 Now, is it again a -- of your change of opinion about the
19 truthfulness of what General Mladic had in mind at that time?
20 A. I don't know about that, Mladic's statement, either.
21 Q. But it would change your mind as what had General Mladic in mind
22 when he addressed the civilians?
23 A. Probably.
24 Q. Now, I think you told us, or you told Mr. -- the investigator that
25 you saw General Mladic and other people handing out food, water, candies
1 to the civilians, including the children. Do you remember having told
2 that to the investigator when you met with him?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, that scene was filmed, was it not?
5 A. I don't know.
6 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps, Your Honours, if we could play a clip.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: And, Your Honours, if we're going to be playing a
9 clip, in all fairness and under the rule of completeness, or the principle
10 of completeness, it would be nice if the Prosecution would also show the
11 gentleman the portion where Mladic is addressing the folks in Potocari,
12 where he's telling them exactly what the gentleman heard.
13 JUDGE LIU: We don't know what kind of clips that he's going to
15 MR. KARNAVAS: It's the same section, if they can find it, Your
16 Honour. Just to be fair to the witness.
17 MR. WAESPI: I think that's up to re-examination if he wants to be
18 in broader -- I just want to show him the clip, to ask if he has seen
19 that, and perhaps one follow-up question.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.
21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. If that clip could be
22 played. It's again from Sanction.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. WAESPI:
25 Q. And perhaps you could tell us if you recognise anybody.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who? And whom did you recognise?
3 A. The man in the uniform.
4 Q. And who was that?
5 A. Ljubisa Borovcanin.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. WAESPI: Please continue.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. WAESPI:
10 Q. Now, are those the scene you had described, the handing out of
11 candies? Is that what you have seen yourself?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, as you see, the scene has been filmed. Do you know what
14 happened after the cameras were turned off?
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: I know what the follow-up question is. We've had
18 mixed testimony in this courtroom, and if the gentleman wants to quote
19 from a particular witness, I don't have a problem, but if he's going to be
20 testifying as to what happened, then he's testifying as a witness.
21 MR. WAESPI: No.
22 JUDGE LIU: No. Well, "what happened" is a general question. He
23 is not leading at all. We don't know what kind of answer this witness
24 will give us. Let us hear what the witness is going to tell us.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not worried about this question, I'm worried
1 about the follow-up, the next question.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, you are --
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Very well, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: -- ahead of me, I have to confess.
5 Yes, you may proceed.
6 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Witness, the question has been, before Mr. Karnavas interfered,
8 whether you had seen what happened after the candies were distributed to
9 the children in front of the cameras. Have you seen what happened
10 afterwards, after the cameras had been turned off?
11 A. I don't know what you're referring to.
12 Q. Okay. Let me read what's been entered into evidence in this
14 MR. WAESPI: And, Your Honours, I'm quoting from Witness F in
15 Krstic, which -- whose testimony has been admitted under 92 bis as
16 Prosecution Exhibit 781.
17 Q. Let me tell you what a member of DutchBat said who witnessed the
18 scene: "After the camera crew stopped filming, the general turned around.
19 He laughed. The soldiers took the candy back, took the cigarettes back.
20 They spit at the children and the women, and they were taken away
22 Have you seen similar scenes?
23 A. No, and I think this is absurd. If you give chocolate to
24 children, maybe the children started eating them right away. So I didn't
25 see that, and I don't think that was true.
1 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if we could go for the next issue into
2 private session because it involves witness statements.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.
4 [Private session]
12 Pages 10330 to 10337 redacted, private session
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage are there any documents to tender?
15 Mr. Karnavas?
16 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Waespi?
18 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, Witness, thank you very much for
20 coming to The Hague to give your evidence. The usher will show you out of
21 the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home. You may go now.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the schedule of next week, Mr. Karnavas,
25 the witness for next week, I suppose has been arranged.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, and I thought --
2 JUDGE LIU: We haven't received any lists for next week's witness.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: You mean the one that's coming up, Monday?
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Monday. Do you have any witness today?
5 MR. KARNAVAS: No. That will be it for today, Your Honour. I was
6 under the impression that we had provided that list, but we will certainly
7 provide a list as soon as we get out of this courtroom, because we have it
8 ready. They have already -- some have arrived -- or, no. One is
9 arriving. Two are arriving tomorrow. I can assure the Court that we will
10 not run out of witnesses next week. It will be a full -- full week, and
11 it's in fact rather doubtful that we will be able to manage all of them,
12 but we'll do our best.
13 JUDGE LIU: But I have to remind you that especially in this week,
14 we somehow are two or three witnesses behind our schedule.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, we're well ahead of our schedule. We
16 are, because I've taken witnesses off. I've notified, for instance --
17 JUDGE LIU: I see.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: -- that Mr. Nikolic, now we have P130, maybe we'll
19 keep him in reserve for surrebuttal, but he's been taken off. But from --
20 from my looking at the -- at the number of witnesses that we have left,
21 I'm rather confident that we will be able to complete on the targeted
22 date. Now, there may be -- something may come up, because I can't
23 forecast the future, unlike as with some questions from the Prosecution
24 there are occasions when I have those abilities, but other than that, I
25 can assure the Trial Chamber that we are moving in the right direction at
1 the right pace, and I know that this week we were a little bit shy of
2 having three witnesses or four witnesses, but I would not -- I would not
4 JUDGE LIU: You never forget the Prosecution.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, they would feel lonely if I didn't mention
6 them, Your Honour, and I don't want to disappoint them. They know that I
7 love them as much as I can. It may not be a whole lot, but --
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Next week, on Monday, Tuesday, and Friday,
9 we have to sit in the afternoon, and on Wednesday and Thursday we'll sit
10 in the morning. And as we discussed before, that next week we will have
11 an extra sitting concerning with the hearings on the amendment of the
13 Is it okay for the Prosecution?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. And do you know what date
15 that would be?
16 JUDGE LIU: I have to consult with the registrar about the court
17 scheduling, and it may be Wednesday or Thursday. We might have an extra
18 hour for that sitting.
19 And for the sake of the record, Mr. Stojanovic, I think during
20 this month we should also have a Pre-Defence Conference. Do you have any
21 ideas about the time and the start of your case?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yesterday we
23 met with Mrs. Katie Gallagher, and we agreed on the timing in principle.
24 We still reckon that we will go according to the approved schedule in
25 adducing our evidence, starting on Monday the 5th of July. We agreed with
1 Mrs. Katie Gallagher that a pre-Defence conference together with the
2 opening statements of our Defence be on the Friday of the 2nd of July, and
3 then we would talk about the witnesses -- the list of witnesses we are
5 We have four weeks allocated to us, ending with Friday 31st July,
6 and it is in accordance with this schedule that we plan to bring our
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think originally the Trial
9 Chamber asked you to start your case on the 28th of June so that you have
10 five weeks in your case, which is enough time. And if we start on the 5th
11 of July for your case, you only have four weeks, exactly four weeks at
12 your disposal. Do you think you could finish calling the witnesses before
13 the 30th of July? I'm just worried, you know, about the time at your
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your
16 concern. Yes, it's true that we were told that we could discuss starting
17 earlier, but we have already agreed with the Victims and Witnesses Unit
18 about the schedule of travel of witnesses. We have a final list of 14
19 witnesses to be heard live, plus two witnesses who will probably go under
20 Rule 92 bis, so that we will stick to the total of 12 live witnesses.
21 With regard to the time that we plan to take with these witnesses,
22 I think we will fit into four weeks. If a problem arises with time, we
23 will let the registrar and the Trial Chamber know well in advance and
24 decide then whether we need to start before Friday the 2nd of July.
25 JUDGE LIU: But the deadline is on the 30th of July. I hope you
1 could make it to this deadline. Thank you.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just a couple of issues, and I'm sure I can get
5 together with Mr. Stojanovic to find out which witnesses he's talking
6 about for 92 bis to determine if we will have any objections or if that
7 will go in smoothly, because obviously that will play a role in how long
8 that will take, and that's the first we've heard of that.
9 Also, on -- for the Blagojevic case, we have been provided
10 courtesy copies of expert reports for population and for military, but as
11 far as we know, there's been no official filings under 94 bis, and so I'm
12 hoping maybe they've decided to change their mind and not call those
13 witnesses, but I'm sure Mr. Karnavas can clarify that for us.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: With pleasure. Yesterday we did file a 94 -- a
16 Rule 94, I think it's bis, motion. So -- with respect to the military
17 expert. Even though we had provided the initial report as a courtesy
18 copy, Mr. McCloskey had indicated that he wanted some additional
19 information, supporting documentation. As I indicated last time we had
20 been in court that I had anticipated that and I had been making efforts to
21 secure that, so yesterday when we filed that, you will see two -- two
22 attachments to this very brief motion, one being the original report,
23 which is very limited in nature, and then a more comprehensive document
24 which is the documentation that was relied upon in making that assessment
25 that we presented.
1 I'm also trying to secure the sources that are outside the record
2 that is being referenced in the documentation that we submitted yesterday,
3 but perhaps the Prosecution can look at that and then they can consider or
4 reconsider their position whether they wanted to entertain a 92 bis with
5 this particular witness or not, but I think they may need some time to
6 look it over to let us know.
7 With respect to the other expert, we received the expert report
8 last Sunday, I believe, in the original, in Serbian, and we -- we did give
9 a courtesy copy to the Office of the Prosecution because we know that they
10 have B/C/S speakers in this very specialised unit that they have dealing
11 with demographics. We put it on a fast track to be translated. We hope
12 to have it translated.
13 The report is based on information that's already contained in the
14 -- the voluminous databank that the OTP has. This expert witness was
15 brought to The Hague along with two assistants and spent several days
16 going through their databank and then generated this report based on the
17 databank and other material, but basically they have what is inclusive in
18 this report, and much of it is a frontal attack on their expert,
19 Mr. Brunborg [sic]. I'm hoping that this report will be -- will be
20 translated very quickly. I do intend to call her. I would really like to
21 call her, and I recognise that there are some time constraints, and I
22 recognise that the Prosecution can insist, as is their right, for this
23 30-day period. However, you know, we are hoping that, one, that there may
24 be a -- some solutions available. One is they can show some flexibility,
25 as can the Court as well, or our -- our other position would be, and I --
1 so I'm laying my cards out, you know, at this point. Our other position
2 would be that, one, we would end the Defence case early - early - thereby
3 allowing the other team to proceed, and then after that we could spend --
4 we can bring those witnesses back after the Jokic Defence, just to clear
5 up those two witnesses, expert witnesses, prior to the Prosecution
6 starting their rebuttal. In doing so, the Defence will have the entire
7 month of August at their disposal. So they certainly will not have --
8 plus all of July. So they will have more than enough time. So of course
9 that's up to the Court and the Prosecution.
10 With respect to the military expert, Mr. McCloskey's suggestion
11 was a reasonable one, because as you will note, the assessment is on a
12 limited basis, and that was my only -- the only basis for which I would be
13 calling him, and I would be listing testimony solely on those narrow
14 issues and not on the entire Srebrenica events. So I will have -- I hope
15 that after Mr. McCloskey reads the material he will have his position, he
16 can tell me what his position is, and then we can take it from there. So
17 that's the best I can do at this particular time.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we're talking about the love of
20 each other here. I guess I won't go into that too much. But one thing I
21 think I can say is that all sides have been fairly flexible in this case,
22 which I think has been much appreciated, and in terms of logistics,
23 things. And if we look at 94 bis, it does talk about the Prosecution does
24 have 30 days or a time limit set by the Judge to respond to the experts.
25 Regarding the military expert, having read the report as it
1 stands, I really, and I'll see what else he's got, but I don't really have
2 a problem with that coming into evidence. I don't want to accept it as
3 fact, but have something that we can argue about, I have no problem with.
4 We'll see what other additional information is, and if that can save us
5 some time, that would be great.
6 Probably do the same thing with the report on the population
7 person, though Mr. Karnavas indicates he wants to call her. But we're
8 open for some creative way to save that as well. I don't think these
9 issues are -- are issues that really need a whole lot of court time, but
10 we're of course ready to do that.
11 So I will discuss this with Mr. Karnavas and Mr. Stojanovic, and I
12 think we'll be able to work something out.
13 And if I could go into private session just for a second to
14 discuss a couple of witnesses for next week.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
16 [Private session]
12 Pages 10346 to 10354 redacted, private session
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the expert statements and according with
15 the Rule 94 bis, I think there's three ways to deal with, you know, this
16 issue, and so long as the status of experts is established, normally we
17 will admit his statement, which is different from the practice of an
18 ordinary witness at all.
19 In this situation, we admit the statement through 94 bis or
20 through 92 bis, without any direct examination or cross-examination. This
21 is the first approach.
22 Second approach is that since we have already admitted the
23 statement into evidence, there is some room for the cross-examination,
24 because everything is already written there in the statement itself. We
25 don't have to test the memory of that expert. They may be not expert in
1 that field. So there should be no direct examination, only for the
2 cross-examination. This is the second approach.
3 The third approach is there might be some direct examination, but
4 in a very limited way, just to point out the main issues in that
5 statement, then leave much more time for the cross-examination.
6 I think basically this is the three approach to deal with the
7 statement of the expert witness. I hope the parties will bear that in
9 And here I would like to reiterate that the 30th of July is the
10 last day for the Defence case for both teams. I hope the parties will
11 take that into serious consideration. I also hope that the parties could
12 meet together to discuss their schedule and the strategy, especially in
13 the Defence case.
14 Well, it seems that we have been sitting here for quite a long
15 time, so the hearing for today is adjourned, and we will meet next Monday
17 Yes, Mr. Blagojevic? Yes?
18 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since I see
19 that the time is quite limited and very strictly set up, because that's
20 what I hear from you, and since you mentioned the 30th of July, I don't
21 see anywhere an opportunity for exercising my fundamental right, although
22 it says it may be exercised, but I believe that under these complex
23 circumstances, the situation is no less complicated now than it was at the
24 time of my arrest. Please, I have the right to testify under oath before
25 this Tribunal, and I believe that if all these written or oral statements
1 carry weight, then my testimony should also carry certain weight in the
2 light of this whole complex matter. I don't see that happening. I said
3 that I have entered this stage of the proceedings totally unprepared,
4 disoriented and uninformed, because everything is being done without my
5 knowledge, as if I am not interested at all. However, I am very much
6 interested, primarily because the truth that has to be uncovered in the
7 name of justice is crucial for me too. Therefore, I wouldn't like to be
8 pushed or remain aside for a single moment. I want to remain as much as
9 honest as upon in this proceedings as I had been in my former life,
10 previous life.
11 Therefore, I would like to know what opportunities I have in this
12 respect so that I can act accordingly. Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much for raising this issue
14 again. I believe that you raised it on the previous occasions once. And
15 I think at this stage I have to state the position of the Bench on that
16 issue. According to the Rules, the accused could be a witness in the
17 case, which should be entirely out of his free will. The Bench's
18 obligation is to guarantee the right of the accused, especially of the
19 right of not incriminating himself.
20 Frankly speaking, at this moment the Bench take a neutral position
21 on that. We do not encourage Mr. Blagojevic to be a witness in this case
22 and we do not dissuade him to do that. But the issue has to be very clear
23 here. The accused may be an expert in military affairs or the technical
24 affairs, but the legal issue is totally different field. That's why the
25 accused needs to have some counsels for the legal opinions.
1 If a -- if an accused would like to be a witness in this case, I
2 believe he has to be informed of all the rights he has and the
3 consequences of his testimony. In this way, we strongly advise
4 Mr. Blagojevic to consult with his counsel. I believe that Mr. Karnavas
5 could give the professional advice to Mr. Blagojevic on this point.
6 If there is no meeting between the -- between Mr. Blagojevic and
7 the counsel, if Mr. Blagojevic is not well informed of all the
8 consequences, and if there is no agreement from the counsel of
9 Mr. Blagojevic for his testimony, the Trial Chamber will be in a very
10 difficult position to grant the request.
11 This is all I could say at this stage. And I think that's all for
12 today's hearing. The hearing is adjourned.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.29 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of June,
15 2004, at 2.15 p.m.