Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10359

1 Monday, 7 June 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And before we hear the witness, I think

9 there's something I have to say about the scheduling for -- of this week.

10 It seems to me that owing to the maintenance of Courtroom 3, so we have to

11 move from one courtroom to another. For instance, today we are sitting in

12 courtroom II. Tomorrow morning there will be a Rule 50 hearing, 11.00 in

13 this courtroom, Courtroom II, and in the afternoon we will continue the

14 proceedings in Courtroom I. On Wednesday we are sitting in the morning,

15 and Thursday and Friday we are sitting in the afternoon. I hope everybody

16 could remember it.

17 Well, Mr. Karnavas, how about our next witness.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President; good afternoon, Your

19 Honours. I trust you had a restful weekend. The next witness is here.

20 The protective measures would be face distortion and he has a pseudonym,

21 Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objection, Ms. Issa?

23 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Your request is granted. Could we have

25 the witness, please.

Page 10360

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

4 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

5 accordance with the paper Mr. Usher is showing to you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. I solemnly declare that

7 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

15 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. Could you please tell us your name -- oh, sorry. Your Honour --

18 JUDGE LIU: I think you prepared a piece of paper.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I did. I did.

20 JUDGE LIU: We might go into the private session.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I have it, Your Honour, I am just a little bit

22 discombobulated at the moment.

23 Q. Could you please look at what I have just shown you, which has

24 been marked as D190/1 for identification purposes. Is that your name,

25 sir?

Page 10361

1 A. Well, yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Thank you. That will be it. Now, I want to focus

3 your attention on July 1995. Could you please tell us, July 1995, where

4 you were.

5 A. In July 1995, I was in Belgrade.

6 Q. And could you please tell us what you were doing in Belgrade, just

7 in the very general sense.

8 A. I was there pursuing a course, an education course.

9 Q. Well, okay, but with respect to what? What was the educational

10 foundation or the institution?

11 A. It was a military institution. It was a very advanced course.

12 Q. All right. Now, sometime in July 1995, did you go to Bratunac?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could go briefly into private session, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10362

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]


4 Q. Now, could you please tell us on July 1995 when it was that you

5 went to Bratunac.

6 A. On the 10th of July.

7 Q. What was the purpose for going to Bratunac?

8 A. One of the reasons was to take part in the activity surrounding

9 the liberation of Srebrenica. Another reason was to visit my mother, who

10 was ill at the time.

11 Q. At that point in time, sir, were you a member of the Bratunac

12 Brigade, that is, prior to or on your arrival in Bratunac?

13 A. No, I wasn't a member of the Bratunac Brigade.

14 Q. Had you been ordered by anyone to leave your academic course and

15 go to Bratunac to assist in those ongoing activities?

16 A. No. I had taken some days off, and unbeknownst to my command, I

17 left for Bratunac to take my days off there.

18 Q. Now, could you please tell us when you got to Bratunac, since you

19 wanted to assist in those activities, what exactly you did.

20 A. After visiting my family, I went to the command of the Bratunac

21 Brigade.

22 Q. At that point in time, sir, did you know who the commander of the

23 Bratunac Brigade was?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Where did you report in the Bratunac Brigade?

Page 10363

1 A. To the brigade command.

2 Q. Where exactly is that, sir?

3 A. The location was inside the Kaolin factory compound, and I was in

4 the operations room.

5 Q. Why did you go to the operations room?

6 A. That's where I could wait for someone to come along and give me

7 further instructions.

8 Q. Did you make any inquiries at that point in time as to who you

9 should report to?

10 A. Yes. I asked who the brigade commander was, and I received a

11 reply. They told me it was Mr. Blagojevic.

12 Q. Were you informed at that point in time where Mr. Blagojevic was?

13 A. Yes. They said that he was at the forward command post in the

14 Pribicevac area.

15 Q. Prior to that time, sir, had you been to Pribicevac?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, we're speaking of the 10th of July. Could you please tell us

18 approximately what time this would have been when you went to the

19 operations room at the Bratunac Brigade.

20 A. It was past 1800 hours, in the evening.

21 Q. Now, at some point in time that evening, did anyone come that was

22 able to assist you in what you were looking for, that is, getting

23 instructions on assisting the liberation of Srebrenica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who was that, sir?

Page 10364

1 A. General Krstic.

2 Q. Could you please tell us about what time this would have been.

3 A. I believe it was past 2000 hours.

4 Q. Did you know General Krstic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How did you recognise him if you didn't know him?

7 A. When he entered the room, all those present stood up. I

8 introduced myself, and I said why I was there.

9 Q. And what was General Krstic's response?

10 A. General Krstic then decided to get me involved with the

11 composition of the Bratunac Brigade.

12 Q. In what capacity, sir?

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, could we go into the private session?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: We could if we want. Yes. I guess, yes.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10365

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]


12 Q. Now, after this conversation -- well, during this conversation

13 with General Krstic, do you recall whether Colonel Blagojevic was there?

14 A. He was not there.

15 Q. Could you please tell us what happened after that, after you were

16 given those instructions from General Krstic.

17 A. He told me that I could get some rest and report back the next

18 morning in connection with my departure for the forward command post.

19 Q. And is that what you did?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Incidentally, did you get anything in writing, an order or

22 something that would formalise this particular appointment?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did that seem somewhat strange to you or out of the ordinary?

25 A. I didn't see it that way at the moment. I thought that this would

Page 10366

1 eventually get done through the regular procedure.

2 Q. All right. Now, the following morning, did you go to Pribicevac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you please tell us about what time it would have been when

5 you arrived there.

6 A. It was before 9.00.

7 Q. And when you arrived there, could you please tell us what you did.

8 A. When we arrived, General Krstic called Colonel Blagojevic and

9 explained to him who I was and what my role was.

10 Q. How long did this take place?

11 A. Several minutes.

12 Q. After that, what happened?

13 A. Colonel Blagojevic told me about the situation on the ground.

14 Q. All right. Did he have any reaction whatsoever from General

15 Krstic's appointment?

16 A. No. He showed nothing.

17 Q. Now, after that, what did you and Colonel Blagojevic do?

18 A. We visited some of the units who were at Kvarc, Pribicevac, and

19 then went towards the left flank of the forces that were deployed in the

20 direction of Srebrenica.

21 Q. How did you visit these units?

22 A. On foot.

23 Q. And -- so tell us what happened after that. How long did this

24 take place, and where, if any -- where, if anyplace, did you go after

25 that?

Page 10367

1 A. In the afternoon we were at the left flank, and we met a group of

2 soldiers who were deployed towards Srebrenica.

3 Q. Do you recall where -- which unit they were with or where they

4 were from?

5 A. I think they belonged to the Milici unit, or Vlasenica,

6 thereabouts.

7 Q. All right. Did you know these -- these soldiers?

8 A. No. I didn't know them at the time.

9 Q. Now, we -- we've heard evidence in this court that on that

10 particular day there were some NATO bombings. Would this have been before

11 or after those events?

12 A. It was before the bombing.

13 Q. Now, after you came up with this unit -- came up to this unit,

14 what did you do?

15 A. We stayed there for a while, and then Colonel Blagojevic returned

16 where he had come from and told me to stay there with the soldiers.

17 Q. Was there any particular reason for telling you to stay there, if

18 you recall?

19 A. No. I don't know.

20 Q. How long did you stay there?

21 A. I stayed until after the bombing, 1600 or 1700 hours.

22 Q. All right. And from there, where did you go?

23 A. From there we went down -- we took a path down to Srebrenica.

24 Q. And when you say "we," who are we speaking about? Who is "we"?

25 A. The soldiers who were there and myself.

Page 10368

1 Q. And when you got to Srebrenica, could you please tell us what you

2 did.

3 A. I reached the centre of Srebrenica. My family's flat was in the

4 centre, and I went to their flat.

5 Q. What was the purpose for going to your family's flat?

6 A. It was my desire to go because I had not been able to visit them

7 for a number of years, and I wanted to go again after all those years to

8 the place where I used to live.

9 Q. Could you please tell us how long you stayed there.

10 A. About ten minutes.

11 Q. And from there where did you go?

12 A. From there I went down the street towards the school building.

13 Q. All right. Now, that would take you in the direction towards --

14 leaving out of the town towards Potocari; is that correct?

15 A. This is still inside the town.

16 Q. All right. Now, while you were there, did you see any

17 higher-echelon officers or any other officer or units?

18 A. The only mark of distinction that there were -- that there was at

19 the time were the armbands worn by soldiers, and I was not familiar with

20 the units. I saw the insignia worn by the Wolves, the unit known as the

21 Wolves, as far as I can remember. And as for officers, I saw Colonel

22 Trivic.

23 Q. All right. What about General Mladic? Did you see the general?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All right. Now, from there where did you go?

Page 10369

1 A. I left the school building, and I took the Srebrenica-Bratunac

2 road, and eventually I reached a playground at the entrance to Srebrenica.

3 Q. Now, we're talking about the entrance of Srebrenica. That's if

4 you're coming from the direction of Potocari heading towards Srebrenica;

5 correct?

6 A. Yes. You have a signpost, Srebrenica, and that's where the town

7 begins.

8 Q. All right. Now, when you arrived at that location, did you see

9 anyone?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you please tell us who it was.

12 A. When I came there I saw Colonel Blagojevic, Colonel Pandurevic.

13 Q. Now, was this a planned meeting? Had you and Colonel Blagojevic

14 arranged to meet at that location?

15 A. No. Srebrenica is a small town, and it's easy to spot people when

16 they walk down the street.

17 Q. Now, when you got there, could you please tell us what Colonel

18 Blagojevic was doing.

19 A. Colonel Blagojevic asked the officers to provide us with a vehicle

20 so we could drive back to Bratunac.

21 Q. And did you go back to -- did they provide you with a vehicle?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you go back to Bratunac?

24 A. No [as interpreted].

25 Q. Was that no or yes?

Page 10370

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, could you please tell us which route you took to go from

3 Srebrenica back to Bratunac.

4 A. From the football pitch through Zalazje, Sase, and then on to

5 Bratunac.

6 Q. Now -- so you didn't go through Potocari?

7 A. No. Our units, the units that were in Srebrenica, were in the

8 area of the football pitch.

9 Q. Now, could you please tell us about what time you arrived in -- in

10 Bratunac.

11 A. It was late in the evening.

12 Q. Could you please tell us what the lighting conditions were for

13 that time of year.

14 A. It was dark.

15 Q. When you got to Bratunac, where exactly did you go to?

16 A. We came to the brigade command.

17 Q. When you got there, what did you do?

18 A. After a brief while, we went to get some rest so that the next day

19 we could continue with our activities.

20 Q. And where were you staying while you were in Bratunac?

21 A. I spent the night in a house where my mother was, just next to the

22 brigade command.

23 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention on the next day. That would

24 be the 12th of July, 1995. And first of all, I would like to ask you very

25 concretely, on that particular day did you go into Potocari?

Page 10371

1 A. No.

2 Q. While I'm on the subject of Potocari, did you go there on the

3 13th?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Could you please tell us how you spent, to the best of your

6 recollection, the 12th of July, 1995, the day after Srebrenica fell.

7 A. On the 12th, officially Srebrenica had not fallen yet. We did not

8 know where the members of the 28th Division were. And upon entering the

9 town of Srebrenica, you couldn't say that the task of the liberation of

10 Srebrenica had thereby been completed. In our assessment, the able-bodied

11 men were still in the hills, and we believed that they could still attack

12 our forces. It was for that reason that we took measures to keep our

13 units ready to defend themselves along the lines held should the members

14 of the 28th Division launch an attack against us.

15 Q. Could you please tell us concretely what measures you recall were

16 taken.

17 A. We toured the 3rd Battalion, because it had suffered -- actually,

18 it had gone through the most number of changes in its position because it

19 had held the positions around the Srebrenica enclave during the previous

20 years. Since the soldiers of that battalion hail from Bratunac, we

21 noticed that that battalion was practically non-existent, that the

22 soldiers had gone to visit their homes in the area where our forces were

23 already deployed. The battalion commander was ordered to call back the

24 unit, and he was told of the seriousness of the situation, that it was

25 possible that we would be left with nothing if we do not take the

Page 10372

1 situation regarding the 28th Division seriously, meaning that they could

2 drive us out from that sector in case of an attack.

3 Q. Could you please tell us where you went on the 12th.

4 A. On the 12th, in the evening, we returned to the command post in

5 Bratunac.

6 Q. You said "we." With whom did you spend the 12th?

7 A. With Colonel Blagojevic, the driver, the communications officer.

8 Q. And -- now on the -- do you recall what time it was on the 12th

9 that you returned?

10 A. It was already night.

11 Q. Could you please tell us, when you got back, what did you do?

12 A. After acquainting ourselves with the situation in the brigade, we

13 went to take a rest.

14 Q. The next day do you recall what you did?

15 A. The next day, one of the key activities was to prepare the unit

16 which was to go to the Zepa sector, which was led by Major Pajic. Also,

17 we were supposed to reconnoitre the sectors where the other brigades had

18 their units which had searched the terrain in the Srebrenica sector, the

19 Viogor sector. After preparing this unit, Pajic's unit, we went to

20 Viogor. We saw the unit there that was supposed to go to Zepa, and after

21 that, we went to the 3rd Battalion. The battalion commander was given

22 tasks of where he was to deploy the companies which he had managed to

23 consolidate by that time.

24 Q. Was there -- you told us about the 12th, but on the 13th, why was

25 it necessary to go to all these different units?

Page 10373

1 A. On the 13th, the main forces which had taken part in the attack on

2 Srebrenica were supposed to pull out of the Srebrenica sector and move on

3 to a different task. So we had to take over that part of the zone where

4 the fighting was still being waged. The zone turned towards the 28th

5 Division, because up until that time we didn't know exactly how many of

6 them there were, where they were, or exactly what their intentions were.

7 Q. Do you know whether any orders were issued to engage or to search

8 and destroy, if you will, the 28th Division?

9 A. For us, our task was to be ready, in case of an attack by the 28th

10 Division, to be ready so that it would not destroy us. These were

11 soldiers who were not trained. They were not young, and they did not have

12 weapons that were good enough to deal with such a large force that we were

13 facing.

14 Q. Well, if that were the situation, could you please explain, if you

15 know, why a -- a unit was put together for Major Pajic, who was then the

16 Chief of Staff, to go towards Zepa?

17 A. The superior command assessed that the situation was safe enough.

18 There can be no other explanation for the pull-out of the main body of the

19 force, even though we did not think the same way.

20 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us about what time it would

21 have been when you returned from the field or you returned back to the

22 Bratunac Brigade headquarters on the 13th now.

23 A. It was already dark also.

24 Q. Could you please tell us what you did when you returned that

25 evening.

Page 10374

1 A. The usual activities; getting to know what the orders were that

2 had arrived and then preparation and agreeing about what to do the next

3 day.

4 Q. All right. Could you please tell us what -- what you did, if you

5 recall, the next day. In fact, let's talk about the 14th, the 15th, the

6 16th, in general, if you could tell us.

7 A. In the meantime, we received an order to search the terrain. So

8 on the 14th of July, we began to search the terrain. The units began to

9 do this. We were directly controlling. This is the way it's usually

10 done, up to the lines that the units had reached, because after several

11 years of spending time on the same positions, especially in the case of

12 the 2nd and the 1st Battalion, it was necessary to motivate the men and

13 organise things in such a way that they could leave the trenches freely

14 and cross the few hundred metres and be sure while doing that that this

15 area was clear of members of the 28th Division.

16 Q. Did you supervise at all any of the searching of the terrain?

17 A. On that day I was in the 2nd Infantry Battalion.

18 Q. Were you there specifically to assist in the searching or

19 supervise the searching or monitor the situation? What was the exact

20 purpose for being there?

21 A. The reason why I was there was to control or to monitor the

22 implementation of the task.

23 Q. And from what you were able to observe, was the implementation of

24 the task, that is the searching of the terrain, was it being done in a

25 correct manner?

Page 10375

1 A. When I arrived, I noticed that the soldiers were not trained for

2 this operation, because they carrying out the search of the terrain by

3 proceeding along in a column, which represented a danger for them, meaning

4 that if they came up to an ambush, they risked getting killed. Then I

5 drew the attention or ordered the commander of the battalion how the

6 sweeping or the searching of the terrain should be done, that the soldiers

7 should be a certain distance apart so that several people do not get

8 killed in one burst of fire.

9 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us -- was this -- which

10 date was this?

11 A. On the 14th.

12 Q. And did you do anything else on that particular day that you

13 recall?

14 A. No, not particularly.

15 Q. Okay. When you were there, was Colonel Blagojevic with you on

16 this particular day, if you recall?

17 A. I don't know whether this was on that day, but once the searching

18 of the terrain was completed, Colonel Blagojevic and I went together to

19 the Susnjari-Jaglic sector where our forces were supposed to finish up

20 their searching of the terrain.

21 Q. Now, on the 15th, do you recall what you did?

22 A. The terrain was also being searched in the course of the 15th, but

23 I think on that day the weather was bad so that we mostly spent the day at

24 the command.

25 Q. All right. Now, we've also heard testimony here that some men

Page 10376

1 were sent to Zvornik, in that area, to the Zvornik Brigade. Do you know

2 anything about that or those activities?

3 A. Later I heard that one company was sent to Zvornik when the forces

4 of the 28th Division attempted a breakthrough.

5 Q. Were you involved at all in organising or going in that direction?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, we've heard testimony that at some point in time units of the

8 Bratunac Brigade went to Zepa. Did you go to Zepa along with the Bratunac

9 Brigade?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall when it was that you went to Zepa?

12 A. We set out for Zepa on the 17th of July.

13 Q. Do you recall about what time of day it would have been that you

14 set off for Zepa?

15 A. It was between noon and 1.00 p.m.

16 Q. Now, could you please tell us which units, to the best of your

17 recollection, had remained behind in Bratunac while other units went to

18 Zepa.

19 A. As far as I recall, only the Bratunac Brigade stayed behind in

20 Bratunac.

21 Q. Well, okay. Let me -- let me make sure that I -- let me rephrase

22 the question.

23 You indicated that units went -- units of the Bratunac Brigade

24 went to Zepa on the 17th. We already know that on the 13th and 14th,

25 Major Pajic has gone. My question is how many units of the Bratunac

Page 10377

1 Brigade remained behind and stayed in Bratunac after the 17th.

2 A. In the Bratunac and Srebrenica sector, a part of the 3rd and a

3 part of the 2nd Battalion remained. I think that was between 200 and 300

4 soldiers.

5 Q. Now, we have heard testimony that for two years or more, the line

6 of the Bratunac Brigade where the soldiers were located was more or less

7 static. Could you please tell us what the line was in July 17th, for

8 instance, and thereafter.

9 A. After the 16th of July, the line really didn't exist any more.

10 There was the sector where the 3rd Battalion was and there were sectors

11 where parts of the 2nd Battalion were deployed. The 1st Battalion was

12 sent to Zepa from the place where it was deployed.

13 Q. All right. Now, before I go through some -- incidentally, I just

14 want to back up a little bit and cover a couple of points. We've heard

15 testimony here that on the night or the afternoon of the 12th and in the

16 evening of the 13th, there were men in buses, trucks, Vuk Karadzic school.

17 Could you please tell us whether you were aware of those activities.

18 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I'm objecting to the form of the question.

19 I mean, this is an examination-in-chief. It's totally improper for

20 Mr. Karnavas to put the form of the question in the manner that he just

21 did.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well --

23 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase it. I'll rephrase it, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could ask a direct question.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: I think so.

Page 10378

1 Q. On the 12th and 13th of July, 1995, were you aware whether there

2 were any Muslim men being held as prisoners in -- in Bratunac?

3 A. I heard that there were some prisoners.

4 Q. Could you please tell us which date it was that you heard this

5 information, if you recall.

6 A. On the 13th.

7 Q. Did you know who had ordered those men to be there? Who had

8 issued the order?

9 A. I don't know. I heard that they came in buses in the course of

10 the night to Bratunac.

11 Q. Now, did you know -- did you ever learn what happened to those

12 men?

13 A. No, I did not.

14 Q. Have you heard since these events - you know, since the fall of

15 Srebrenica - have you heard at all any information about what has happened

16 to the men that were being detained?

17 A. I heard that they were taken away and killed.

18 Q. Do you know -- have you heard any information about any members of

19 the Bratunac Brigade being engaged in these killing operations?

20 A. No, I haven't heard that.

21 Q. All right. Now, before I show you some -- some documents, I

22 thought I would go to one map. Perhaps you can assist us here.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: If I could have the assistance of Mr. Usher.

24 Q. I would like to show you what has come into evidence as P369.

25 It's a rather small map. If you could please look at this -- this map.

Page 10379

1 First of all, let me ask you some questions. Have you ever seen

2 this map before?

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear whether the witness

4 said yes or no.


6 Q. Could you please repeat what you said. Have you ever seen this

7 map before?

8 A. Yes, I have seen this map.

9 Q. Could you please tell us where it was that you've seen this map.

10 A. It was on the wall, this map or a similar map. It was placed on

11 the wall of the operations room.

12 Q. Now, before we go into map in any great detail, could you please

13 tell us what value, if any, this map had in July 1995.

14 A. Based on this map, you cannot conclude that it is related or

15 linked to 1995.

16 Q. All right. Let me be -- let me repeat my question, because we're

17 going to go through it in detail. Concretely, how much weight should we

18 give this map?

19 A. When I look at this map, I cannot conclude which period it

20 pertains to. The only thing that I can conclude is that, in my opinion,

21 it is not a valid document because it was not approved. It doesn't have

22 the accompanying documents which would describe what is going on there.

23 We just have an area here that is marked in yellow and bordered -- it has

24 borders. The name itself does not correspond to the rules which regulate

25 the development of a working map.

Page 10380

1 The term "area of responsibility" does not exist. There is a term

2 "zone of operations," "zone of attack," "zone of defence," "deployment

3 sector," "rest sector." "Area of responsibility" as a term does not

4 exist.

5 Q. All right. Now, in looking at that map, and maybe we can put it

6 on the ELMO. It's that device that's next to you, that overhead

7 projector. Focusing now in 1995, July, and looking at that bordered area

8 that says "Zone of responsibility of Bratunac Brigade," could you please

9 tell us why that area has no significance. Concretely now.

10 A. Because it does not reflect the situation vis-a-vis the units that

11 were in that area at the time; namely, there is no line showing the

12 position of the battalions which were taking up the same positions for

13 three years in this area. Many sectors were included which were far

14 behind the units, which have nothing to do with combat operations.

15 Q. Well, if that's the case, could you please tell us what it was --

16 what this map was doing in the operations room back in July 1995 when you

17 arrived there, on the wall.

18 A. It was there just like any other item. As far as the actual

19 situation in July 1995, this -- it did not have anything to do with the

20 activities that were under way in July 1995.

21 Q. Okay. Now, did anyone at that point in time, as far as you know,

22 ever look at this map to make reference to it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. By looking at this map, do we know exactly who created it? Who

25 was this person who came up with this geographical region called "zone of

Page 10381

1 responsibility"?

2 A. It's not possible to conclude that based on this map.

3 Q. All right. We're going to put that map aside. I think we've had

4 enough of that map for now.

5 Now, again since we're on the maps, maybe we can look at these

6 maps here which were just given to us by the Prosecution on -- on -- I

7 believe it was Friday afternoon or evening.

8 First of all, can you see these maps from where you're located?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, perhaps -- perhaps I could have the

12 assistance of Mr. Usher to just slightly turn the maps in a more

13 advantageous angle.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me. I just --

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Those maps are not dated, as far as I know, and I

17 don't know if they're current military secrets or not, but --

18 MR. KARNAVAS: There are no military secrets involved, however,

19 they do bear the name of the gentleman, so perhaps --

20 JUDGE LIU: Let's go to the private session if we have the camera

21 focused on that map.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Right. Can we make sure the camera is not focused

23 on the name of the gentleman.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. And we will not have it broadcast

25 outside this courtroom anyway.

Page 10382

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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Page 10383












12 Pages 10383 to 10390 redacted, private session














Page 10391

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]


12 Q. Sir, I want to show you what has come into evidence as P149/A is

13 for English, B is for Srpski. If you could look at it.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I will be meeting the assistance of the usher.

15 Q. Now, what I'm showing you, sir, has already been introduced into

16 evidence. It's a daily combat report dated 11 July 1995. Do you see it,

17 sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10392

1 (redacted)

2 If I look at the handwriting, I can say that this report was not

3 signed by the commander either. Rather, in conformity with the rules, it

4 was done by the duty officer, whoever was in charge at the command post at

5 Bratunac.

6 Q. Just incidentally while we're -- while we're at it, could you

7 please tell us how accurate these daily combat reports were in general in

8 light of the situation.

9 A. Bearing in mind the pace of change in the situation and the level

10 of training of the officers at the brigade command, the reports did not

11 faithfully reflect the situation. The degree of detail contained in a

12 report very much depended on the level of training that the senior officer

13 on duty on that day had received.

14 Q. All right. Thank you. Now I want to show you another document,

15 and this would be P470. It has come into evidence already. And this is

16 an interim combat report dated 13 July 1995. Do you recognise the

17 activities which are referred to in this particular interim combat report,

18 sir?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what are they related to, sir?

21 A. This is a unit that Major Pajic, the Chief of Staff, had taken

22 along to join the forces that were carrying out activities towards Zepa.

23 Q. And if I recall your testimony earlier, sir, you'd indicated at

24 some point in time that you were involved in these activities; is that

25 correct?

Page 10393

1 A. Yes. That was on the 13th, the morning of the 13th, we received

2 the order to send the unit to the Zepa area or sector. I prepared the

3 unit for that task within the compound of the command or, rather, the

4 factory compound where the command was located.

5 This is an interim report. Because the unit left after the time

6 designated for the sending of regular combat reports as envisaged by the

7 command instructions. The regular combat reports are always sent at the

8 same time with the situation as at that point in time, give or take half

9 an hour. So in order to collect information from the subordinate units

10 and to draw up a report, for example, as at 1600 hours, you get the

11 situation of the units at 1500 hours or quarter past 3 p.m. It is obvious

12 that the unit left after the regular combat report had already been sent,

13 therefore the officer in charge sent this interim combat report and

14 believed it was necessary not to wait for the next day when another

15 regular combat report could be sent, he thought it was necessary to inform

16 the corps command so they knew that we had carried out the task that we

17 had received on the same day.

18 Another thing you can tell based on this report is it's not signed

19 because at the time the report was sent the commander was not physically

20 present.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, I want to skip ahead a few days, and

22 I want to show you a document dated P495/A and B. There you go.

23 Now, if you could look at that, and first of all, have you seen

24 this document or do you recall ever seeing this document back then when it

25 was generated, that is back in 15 July 1995?

Page 10394

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. All right. Now, if you could take -- if you could please look at

3 it very briefly so we can discuss it. And first of all could you tell us,

4 what is this document?

5 A. This is a document where Colonel Ignjat Milanovic reports on what

6 the 1st Bratunac Brigade had done, the Milici Brigade, and it was sent to

7 the command of the forward command post corps, to the commander

8 personally, rather the Drina Corps, the Bratunac and Milici Brigade as

9 well as the Skelani Independent Battalion, so that they, too, were

10 informed about what he had told the superior command.

11 Q. All right. Now, it says at the bottom -- or at one point it says

12 there is a proposal. Do you see that?

13 A. Proposal, yes.

14 Q. Well, based on this proposal, could you please tell us whether the

15 commander of the Bratunac Brigade is going to have the MUP units or MUP

16 units designated in this document subordinated to him?

17 A. My apologies. I can't see that this refers to MUP at all. Where

18 do you see that?

19 Q. Well, I'm just asking you the question. It says here under

20 paragraph number 1, the proposal, to authorise and appoint the commander

21 of the 1st Bratunac Brigade as commander of all the forces which

22 participating in searching the terrain and sweeping the battlefield to the

23 east of the road and in control of the Kasaba-Drinjaca road because we

24 have no one to appoint from the command of the Drina Corps.

25 Now, based on that first paragraph, number one, do you know

Page 10395

1 whether he's being -- through this proposal the late Colonel Milanovic, as

2 I understand he's dead now, is proposing that MUP forces be subordinated

3 to the commander of the Bratunac Brigade?

4 A. I can't conclude that on the basis of this document, and this is

5 something that I don't know.

6 Q. All right. Thank you.

7 A. Above all, the document refers to the forces that are indicated

8 here; the Milici Brigade, the Skelani Independent Battalion. If this

9 referred to any of the MUP forces, probably this would have been clearly

10 stated.

11 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you another document that is

12 perhaps related to this one, and this document is D496.

13 First of all, and as I indicated, perhaps, this is dated July 16,

14 1995. On that particular day, do you recall whether you were with Colonel

15 Blagojevic that day?

16 A. Yes, I was.

17 Q. Now, I want you to look at this document, D496, which is a daily

18 combat report. Could you please look at it and tell us, to the best of

19 your recollection, how accurate this document is and which portions that

20 you find are inaccurate, if any. If any.

21 A. Item 1 is a generalisation. You can't state the number

22 particularly with certainty.

23 As for item 2, the part about the search being carried out is

24 correct. I don't know about the MUP units. This is something that I was

25 not familiar with. Also accurate is this portion saying that the brigade

Page 10396

1 commander had toured some of the units, because we got as far as Konjevic

2 Polje, but we didn't go to Milici or the 65th Regiment because we spent

3 that day reconnoitring the area that pursuant to the orders that we had

4 received we were supposed to search to assure ourselves that there were no

5 28th Division forces there. And this referred to the area between Kravica

6 and Konjevic Polje.

7 As for the part about the two companies being sent to the 1st

8 Brigade, I'm not sure those ever left. As for the platoon from the 1st

9 Battalion, I'm quite sure this platoon never joined the Zvornik Brigade,

10 because that unit, alongside with their battalion commander, on the 17th

11 left for Zepa.

12 So there are portions that are accurate. There are portions that

13 are not accurate, and there are portions that are only accurate in part,

14 as concerns the touring of the units.

15 Q. All right. Now, do you have that handwritten version with you

16 there, sir? I believe it's -- it might be attached as --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. By the way, this is P496, for the record. Now, in looking at this

19 handwritten version, do you recognise the handwriting?

20 A. Sections that were added remind me of Colonel Blagojevic's

21 handwriting.

22 Q. All right. Now, I want to go back to that section where you

23 indicated -- where it says that the brigade commander visited, and

24 according to the English version, it says, "visited all units which are

25 blocking the enemy retreat." And then it states in parentheses, "the 1st

Page 10397

1 Milici Light Infantry Brigade, units of the 65th Protection Motorised

2 Regiment, parts of the MUP, and the 5th Engineering Battalion define their

3 tasks and organised their joint action and communications."

4 So I want to focus your attention on this portion. And first of

5 all with respect to this portion, if you look at the handwritten version,

6 do you recognise the handwriting with respect to this aspect of the daily

7 combat report that I just read to you?

8 A. Yes. It reminds me of Colonel Blagojevic's handwriting.

9 Q. All right. And to make sure that the translation is correct, does

10 the handwritten version that you have in front you correspond at least

11 with the English version, which states, "The brigade commander visited all

12 units ..."? Does it state that?

13 A. Blocking the -- and then further down, right?

14 Q. Right. It says "all units which are blocking"; correct?

15 A. Yes, that's what it says.

16 Q. Now, if I understand your testimony, you indicated that not all

17 units were visited, but some, at least based on you being with Colonel

18 Blagojevic; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Well, can you give us an explanation, sir? Then how is it that an

21 official document, a daily combat report, the commander himself would

22 correct it in his own handwriting and state that he himself had visited

23 all the units when in fact, according to your memory of the events, that

24 would appear to be false, that he only visited some. Do you have an

25 explanation?

Page 10398

1 A. I don't know why it was written like this. I can only assume,

2 bearing in mind the dates and the obligation to send a large unit that was

3 part of the Bratunac Brigade on to Zepa, it was probably on account of the

4 lack of time and the need to carry out this task, he decided to cut the

5 trip short, and what mattered to us in relation to this order to search

6 the terrain between Kravica and Konjevic Polje, he took all that into

7 account, and that's why he returned earlier.

8 Now, as for why he wrote this, I do not know why he wrote that he

9 did as he had been ordered to do. The orders had probably been for him to

10 visit all units and to coordinate defence as well as to prevent any

11 breakthrough by the forces of the 28th Division.

12 Q. Based on your experience, in mobilising the -- the Bratunac

13 Brigade, what was there to be mobilised to go off to Zepa, how large of a

14 task would that have been?

15 A. This was a priority task for us in view of the fact that we were

16 going where the corps command was, and we could not appear in that area

17 without the unit that was ordered to come to the territory.

18 Q. In comparing the two activities, searching this terrain or

19 visiting the units that are searching or blocking the terrain, in

20 mobilising your own brigade to go into combat activity or combat zone,

21 which of the two are more significant?

22 A. The preparation for that day is more important. That day, I'm

23 speaking about the 16th. The preparation of the unit that was supposed to

24 leave was more important because the unit is being sent outside of the

25 zone in order to carry out combat operations.

Page 10399

1 Q. And let me show you now what has been marked and what has come

2 into evidence as P498. Can you please look at this, sir, and tell us what

3 it is.

4 A. It's an order regulating the dispatch of the 1st Battalion to the

5 Zepa sector.

6 Q. All right. Now, is this order consistent with your memory of the

7 events of the preparation for the mobilisation for Zepa?

8 A. Yes, it more or less is in accordance with the situation as I

9 recall it. One small deviation is the time the march was supposed to

10 start. It was for the 17th, but a little bit later, somewhere around

11 noon.

12 Q. All right. Sir, I want to thank you very much. I have no further

13 questions at this time. If you could be as frank and forthcoming with the

14 Prosecution as you have been with me, and with the Judges should they have

15 any questions, I would most appreciate it. Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions

17 to this witness?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour; good

20 afternoon, Witness. In view of the examination-in-chief today and this

21 Defence's position, we do not have any questions for this witness.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination, Ms. Issa?

23 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Issa:

25 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

Page 10400

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. I just want to start off with understanding a few points about

3 your background.

4 MS. ISSA: Perhaps, Your Honour, we might go into private session

5 for this portion.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

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Page 10401












12 Pages 10401 to 10418 redacted, private session














Page 10419

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Issa: [Continued]

9 Q. Now, sir, can you explain to us when you decided on 10th to go

10 down to Bratunac to help, how is it that you found out that Srebrenica

11 would fall?

12 A. I didn't find out then that Srebrenica would fall.

13 Q. What made you go down there, then, on the 10th?

14 A. As I said, I wanted to be part of those activities.

15 Q. And when you say "those activities," what exactly are you

16 referring to?

17 A. I'm referring to the operation that was under way at the time,

18 that was to separate the two enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica. I found out

19 about that once I arrived.

20 Q. So before you arrived, what did you know?

21 A. Before I arrived, I knew that the enclaves were in existence and

22 that there were combat operations that were being carried out in the area.

23 I heard that in the media.

24 Q. Okay. Moving then on to the artillery map.

25 MS. ISSA: If I can just ask the assistance of Mr. Usher. I think

Page 10420

1 it's up there. It's on the -- I believe it's D193. It's the one that's

2 right on the ...

3 JUDGE LIU: Now, maybe we could go to the private session.

4 MS. ISSA: That's what I was just going to say, Your Honour.

5 Thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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Page 10421












12 Page 10421 redacted, private session














Page 10422

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 MS. ISSA:

17 Q. Have you seen an artillery plan for the Srebrenica attack, sir?

18 A. No.

19 Q. On the morning of the 11th, can you tell us if General Krstic went

20 with you from Bratunac to Pribicevac.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where was he coming from? Where did you pick him up from?

23 A. It's the other way around. He ordered me to report, and he was

24 the one who was taking me somewhere, I wasn't the one who was taking him.

25 Q. Okay. And where did you meet him?

Page 10423

1 A. At the brigade command in Bratunac.

2 Q. Okay. Do you know where he was before he left the Bratunac

3 Brigade command?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Okay. And how long were you there at the brigade command before

6 you left for Pribicevac?

7 A. We set out early in the morning.

8 Q. Okay. But how long were you there at the command before you left?

9 A. Half an hour perhaps, up to one hour.

10 Q. And what were you doing there in the course of that half hour to

11 one hour?

12 A. I was in that room, the operations room we called it.

13 Q. You were there with General Krstic?

14 A. No. When he set out, I was called, and then I came with him.

15 Q. Where did you come with him from before you got to the command?

16 A. Not with him. I reported to the command from the house in which I

17 had spent the night. It was from there that I came to the command. And

18 once General Krstic was on the way to Pribicevac, then I came with him.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. To Pribicevac.

21 Q. And what were you doing in that half hour that you were at the

22 command?

23 A. Nothing. I sat there at the command.

24 Q. Okay. Moving, then, on to the night of the 12th and the 13th.

25 You testified that when you returned to the Bratunac Brigade on the

Page 10424

1 evening of the 12th and the 13th, you and Colonel Blagojevic went to the

2 command and you said you acquainted yourself with what was going on there;

3 right? And I can refer specifically to what you've told us.

4 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand the last portion.

5 Q. Well, you said, and I'll go to your transcript just to make it

6 perfectly clear. On the evening of the 12th, you said: "After

7 acquainting ourselves with the situation in the brigade, we went to take a

8 rest." So that's you and Colonel Blagojevic going back to the brigade and

9 acquainting yourselves with the situation; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then on the evening of the 13th, when you returned to the

12 Bratunac Brigade command, you also said, and I'm quoting: "The usual

13 activities, get to know what the orders were that had arrived and then

14 preparation and agreeing about what to do the next day." And that was in

15 response to a question: "Could you tell us what you did when you returned

16 that evening."

17 So again, you went to the brigade command to acquaint yourself

18 with what was going on, with what the orders were, and the preparation for

19 the next day. You did that on the 12th and the 13th; is that right?

20 A. The part of the command brigade, that specific spot, that's where

21 the orders come in, the communications centre, all the reports and all the

22 orders come in there, are received there. And when the commander arrives,

23 he goes through everything that has arrived in the course of the day,

24 arrived at that specific section of the brigade command. And that's what

25 I mean when I say acquainting ourselves with the situation: What the

Page 10425

1 orders were that had arrived, whether any orders had arrived, and what the

2 tasks were for that section of the command for the following day.

3 Q. Okay. And that's what -- that was your responsibility as a

4 commander to do that, isn't it?

5 A. Of course the brigade commander should be familiar with the

6 situation in the brigade.

7 Q. Okay. Is it fair, then, to say, sir, that when you returned on

8 the evening of the 11th, you went back to the command and you did the same

9 thing; you acquainted yourself with the situation at the brigade?

10 A. The situation in relation to that specific day, meaning did any

11 orders arrive, reports, instructions, that sort of thing.

12 Q. Okay. So on the 11th -- on the evening of the 11th you did that.

13 You acquainted yourself with the situation of that specific day; is that

14 right? I just want -- I just want to make sure that we're clear, for the

15 record.

16 A. So the orders that had arrived at the command post of the brigade,

17 yes.

18 Q. Okay. And Colonel Blagojevic did that, too, is that right,

19 because he was with you?

20 A. He did that and I was standing next to him. He is the commander.

21 Q. Okay. Now, were you aware of the meeting that took place at the

22 Hotel Fontana on the night of the 11th?

23 A. I did not know about it at that time.

24 Q. Weren't you told about it when you went back to the brigade

25 command and acquainted yourself with what happened that day during the

Page 10426

1 day?

2 A. The duty officer had not been informed about that.

3 Q. And what makes you think the duty officer had not been informed

4 about that?

5 A. The superior command sends orders and reports according to their

6 own schedule, and we had no right to ask them what they would do.

7 Q. Now, when you're referring to the superior command, just so that

8 we're clear, what specifically are you -- are you referring to?

9 A. Above all, to the section of the command of the Drina Corps,

10 because for us they were the command. And then the higher levels of

11 command were something that the corps command should keep in mind. That

12 was the procedure. You can't skip the different levels. We couldn't skip

13 the corps command in order to go asking for something from another

14 superior command.

15 If you look at the regular procedure, it is, in fact, quite clear.

16 Q. Okay. And when you got back to the brigade, sir, were you told or

17 did you hear anything about the Muslims from Srebrenica assembling at

18 Susnjari and Jaglici?

19 A. On the evening of the 11th, we did not have that piece of

20 information. The first we heard about the operations or, rather, about

21 the emergence of the 28th Division was when they came across the

22 minefields that were in front of the elements of the brigade's deployment.

23 That particular commander informed the duty officer in the operations room

24 that there were voices outside and moans, and mines exploding, and that

25 was the first we ever heard about any movements, manoeuvres by the 28th

Page 10427

1 Division.

2 Q. Okay. And when -- when precisely had you heard about the -- about

3 the movements of the Muslims going through Jaglici and Susnjari? When did

4 you hear that they were leaving?

5 A. That was on the 12th in the morning, to the best of my

6 recollection.

7 Q. Are you aware, sir, that the 1st Battalion commander had observed

8 Muslims moving through the column in Susnjari and Jaglici I believe it was

9 before the 12th?

10 A. No, we did not receive that bit of information, not at the command

11 post. But we can't rule that out, because bearing in mind where the

12 battalion commander was located, he was in a position to see people moving

13 along, because that is an area that was not forested.

14 Q. On the 12th of July, when you got back to the brigade, did you

15 attend the meeting of the brigade commanders on that evening?

16 A. I did not attend that meeting, and I do not know whether Colonel

17 Blagojevic attended the meeting.

18 Q. Well, you were with Colonel Blagojevic when you returned on the

19 12th of July, weren't you?

20 A. The time, those 24 hours, we were not together throughout that

21 period of time.

22 Q. I'm asking you --

23 A. When we entered the command building, I had -- I'm sorry, I don't

24 understand.

25 Q. I'm asking you, sir, whether when you returned with Colonel

Page 10428

1 Blagojevic on the evening of the 12th -- you told us you weren't aware

2 whether Colonel Blagojevic attended the brigade commanders' meeting that

3 evening.

4 A. I did not attend the meeting of the commanders on that evening.

5 Q. Did Colonel Blagojevic attend the meeting?

6 A. I said I don't know whether he attended.

7 Q. Is there any reason that a commander of a brigade wouldn't attend

8 the brigade commanders' meeting?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. Calls for speculation, unless she wants

10 to put a time and establish that they were there at the time that the

11 meeting took place. But she's asking the witness to speculate.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Please rephrase your question, Ms. Issa.

13 MS. ISSA:

14 Q. Do you know of any reason, sir, why a brigade commander wouldn't

15 attend a brigade command meeting?

16 A. I don't know the reason except if he wasn't physically present at

17 the time wherever the meeting was held. I'm not sure what other reason

18 there could have been.

19 Q. Well, didn't anyone report to you and Colonel Blagojevic that

20 there was a meeting that was taking place at the brigade command?

21 A. No. No one told me.

22 Q. So nobody reported to the radio man that you had with you, the

23 communications person, that there was a meeting at the brigade command on

24 the evening of the 12th July?

25 A. I know nothing about that.

Page 10429

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Q. Were you aware, sir, that Pandurevic had asked Mladic and General

6 Krstic to address his troops because his troops didn't want to go to Zepa?

7 A. There was no way for me to know that if I was not present at the

8 meeting.

9 Q. Were you aware, sir, that on the 13th of July, the next morning,

10 General Mladic and Krstic did address the troops at Viador [sic]?

11 A. You mean soldiers of the Bratunac Brigade.

12 Q. Well, any soldiers, not necessarily the Bratunac Brigade.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if -- I'm going to interject at the

14 point, and if perhaps Ms. Issa could read the place again, because I

15 think, at least from the transcript, it's unclear. Perhaps if she were to

16 give him the place, he might be able to identify which troops, if any,

17 were there at the time.

18 JUDGE LIU: I think Ms. Issa is just asking a very general

19 question. You know, if the -- if the witness answers yes or no, the

20 following question will come out. And if she came to a, you know, dead

21 end, she will leave this subject.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't have a problem with that, Your Honour. All

23 I'm saying is that when she pronounced the previous location, from looking

24 at the transcript and from hearing it, it seems to be a location that's

25 foreign to me, and I don't recognise it.

Page 10430


2 MR. KARNAVAS: So perhaps the pronunciation is a little off, which

3 I'm guilty of as much as anyone else with respect to that aspect.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe could clarify that point.

5 MS. ISSA: Okay, Your Honour. I don't have any problem with that.

6 Q. Viogor is the place.

7 A. Viogor.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. I'm aware of that location, because on that very day Colonel

10 Blagojevic and I had visited Viogor, but not at the time that Mladic gave

11 the speech. That was prior to our arrival. And the reason for our going

12 there was that the units were supposed to go to Zepa, and our soldiers

13 from the Bratunac Brigade were to go out and reach those lines so that

14 they would occupy an area that had already been searched so that we would

15 not have to search again the area between Vojna and Viogor, which is a

16 mountainous terrain, hilly.

17 Q. So if you say Mladic and Krstic addressed the troops prior to your

18 arrival, I take that to mean that you were aware that Mladic and Krstic

19 were there to address the troops regarding Zepa?

20 A. We found out about that once we arrived there, that they had been

21 there and that they had moved on.

22 Q. Sir, were you aware of the separations that occurred in Potocari

23 on the 12th and 13th of July, the separations of men from the women and

24 children?

25 A. I was not aware of that.

Page 10431

1 Q. Were you aware that VRS soldiers were abusing the men and

2 sometimes women in Potocari on the 12th and 13th of July?

3 A. I wasn't aware of that. I was not in Potocari.

4 Q. Had you not heard about it?

5 A. No, not at the time.

6 Q. When did you hear about it?

7 A. After the war, when the whole thing started, the investigations,

8 that's when I heard that there had been abuse and separation according to

9 the allegations in Potocari, but I have no personal, direct knowledge of

10 this. I was not present there, and this is secondhand information. It's

11 what I heard from the other people in Bratunac.

12 Q. Are you aware that there were men in Potocari that were killed by

13 Serb soldiers?

14 A. I'm not aware of the fact that that was where they were killed.

15 And I'm talking about the 12th and the 13th. That's the time span I'm

16 referring to.

17 Q. Were you aware that there were Bratunac Brigade military police

18 members in Potocari on the 12th and 13th?

19 A. That day I didn't know where the military police was. I was with

20 the infantry battalions, and our task was a priority one to organise the

21 battalions for defence against the activities of the 28th Division if it

22 should direct its operations towards us. After the evacuation, which was

23 supposed to have taken place, it was agreed upon, we expected that those

24 forces would then start their operations against us, so we had to take --

25 because they didn't have to take care of their own people any more because

Page 10432

1 they would be safe.

2 Q. Were you aware, sir, that there were 2nd Infantry Battalion

3 soldiers from the Bratunac Brigade in Potocari on the 12th and 13th of

4 July?

5 A. The 2nd Infantry Battalion as a unit also had its own tasks.

6 Individuals from that unit, I don't know if they were in Potocari or not.

7 I wasn't there personally, so I cannot know. This is something that those

8 in the battalion should know.

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa -- you may proceed.

12 MS. ISSA:

13 Q. Can you answer that last question, sir?

14 A. I apologise. Could you please repeat your question, because in

15 the meantime there was an intervention made.

16 MS. ISSA: Perhaps we should go into private session, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10433












12 Pages 10433 to 10442 redacted, private session














Page 10443

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, if in the future any witness who

20 would like to reserve some right, which is to say that maybe the

21 government, the military authorities would not allow him to testify in

22 certain areas, I hope you could get some written instructions from that

23 authority and submit it to this Court. There is a danger to hold your

24 witness in contempt if they refuse to answer any questions. I believe

25 that this ruling is applicable to both parties. At least we know that he

Page 10444

1 was authorised by his authority to do that.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Mr. President. It came as a surprise

3 to me, and I think I -- the Prosecutor knows I like to have everything out

4 in the open. I apologise. Had I known in advance, I would have -- I

5 would have at least either not brought him over to The Hague or tried to

6 persuade the government to lift any military secrets.

7 But while we're at the subject, if you recall, when we talked

8 about the satellite disks, the Prosecutor talked about the US government.

9 I had no prior knowledge about what the US government, you know, position

10 was with respect to the satellite. I'm not saying that that justifies

11 what happened here today, but I'm just saying that things happen

12 occasionally where it's beyond our control. And for the record, again, I

13 make no promises to any witnesses. I bring them here, and I want them to

14 be as honest and forthright with the Court, because that's the only reason

15 for bringing them here.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, try to be diligent enough.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I'll try to be diligent,

18 and I apologise for not being as diligent as I should have been.

19 JUDGE LIU: I was told that tomorrow morning we will sit in

20 Courtroom I at 11.00, and we will stay in that courtroom for the whole

21 day. You see, the schedule always changes.

22 Well, are there anything on the part of the Prosecution?

23 MS. ISSA: Well, Your Honour, I know that normally Mr. McCloskey

24 makes these comments, and I don't like to rehash things, but I think it's

25 -- for a lawyer who referred to himself as being out 20 years constantly

Page 10445

1 demeaning the other side is just so unseemly, if I can put it that way,

2 and it besmirches the very process that we are engaged in, and I frankly

3 don't appreciate it.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. I think your remarks are

5 registered in the transcript. And it's very late, I'm not going to start

6 that debate again, but certainly that both parties should refrain from

7 themselves of attacking each other in the proceedings.

8 So the hearing is adjourned for the day.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of June,

11 2004, at 9.00 a.m.