1 Wednesday, 23 June 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
9 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Next week we might have a
10 92 bis witness, but up to now we are not sure whether he could come or not
11 because the Prosecution requested the cross-examination of that 92 bis
13 As for another witness, yesterday we received some notice from
14 the embassy that the proper paper was served to him, but he was just after
15 an operation and could not make it. So we might arrange it sometime
16 later, maybe during Mr. Jokic's case. It depends on the condition of his
18 It is our intention to finish the testimony of this witness in
19 three sessions this morning, because this courtroom will be used by
20 another case. And if we couldn't finish this witness, we'll do our best,
21 do our best to see whether there is any other courtrooms available this
23 Well, Mr. Karnavas.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President.
25 JUDGE LIU: Are there any protective measures for this witness?
1 MR. KARNAVAS: No, there are not, and I don't anticipate this
2 taking more than a session, actually, perhaps for both sides. But
3 that's -- I mean, I certainly don't think I'm going to be with the witness
4 more than an hour.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
6 Could we have the witness, please.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
14 WITNESS: NIKOLA POPOVIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Judge Vassylenko.
18 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:
19 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you hear me? All right. Can you hear me
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Good. Could you please tell us your name.
23 A. Nikola Popovic.
24 Q. And could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.
25 A. P-o-p-o-v-i-c, diacritic. N-i-k-o-l-a.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popovic.
2 Now, back in July 1995, were you a member of the Bratunac
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you please tell us how you were serving in the brigade, in
6 what capacity.
7 A. I was a military policeman of the Bratunac Brigade, and my duty
8 was to carry out police work in the Bratunac Brigade.
9 Q. All right. Now, did there come a time last year when you learned
10 through the press what Momir Nikolic had stated about you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you please tell us what you had heard Momir Nikolic had
14 A. Yes. I read about it. It was in the newspaper, a newspaper
15 called Blic. And I read that he had accused me and four of my neighbours
16 from Kravica of crimes.
17 Q. All right. Now, just to be precise on this, I want to put on the
18 ELMO exactly what Momir Nikolic had stated.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: If I could have the assistance of the usher. I'm
20 going to be reading from P82, Prosecution Exhibit P82. It would be on
21 page 5, sir.
22 Mr. Usher, if you could -- page 5, and towards the latter part of
23 the page, the paragraph where it starts with: "I established."
24 Q. I'm going to read this part, Mr. Popovic, very slowly for you to
25 listen, and then I will ask you some questions.
1 According to Mr. Nikolic, when he gave a statement to the Office
2 of the Prosecution - and this would have been, to have the exact date, I
3 believe it was June -- or May, May 6th, 2003 - he said: "I established
4 that among those participating in the executions were Nikola Popovic, from
5 Kravica, who was attached to the Bratunac Brigade Military Police,
6 Milovan Matic, who was attached to the 1st Infantry Battalion of the
7 Bratunac Brigade; Ilija Nikolic, who was attached to the 1st Infantry
8 Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade; Raso Milanovic, who was the commander
9 of the Police Unit in Kravica."
10 And if we go to the -- further up in that -- in the same page,
11 Mr. Nikolic is referring to the executions that occurred at the Kravica
13 Concretely, Mr. Popovic, did you participate in any executions at
14 the Kravica warehouse?
15 A. Among my relatives, two members of my family were killed and two
16 members of my wife's family.
17 Q. Okay. Maybe you didn't hear my question. I'm asking you
18 concretely whether you participated in any executions at the Kravica
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you sure about that?
22 A. I wasn't there at all.
23 Q. Could you please tell us, then, why would Momir Nikolic state
24 that you were among those others having participated at those executions?
25 A. I think that he mentioned those people because each one of us had
1 lost family members, all the five of us whom he listed. Two members of my
2 family were killed and also two members of my wife's family.
3 Milovan Matic lost a brother; Ilija Nikolic also lost a brother;
4 Jovan Nikolic also lost a brother; Raso Milanovic lost a brother who was
5 shot in the head. And I think that he just mentioned those of us who had
6 had a tragedy in our family.
7 Q. All right. Now, where are you from originally?
8 A. I'm from Kravica, near Bratunac.
9 Q. And which family members did you lose?
10 A. I lost my father, who was imprisoned on the 7th of January, 1993
11 in Kravica, and after that he was killed in Srebrenica a month later. I
12 also lost my grandfather, who was slaughtered in front of his house, and
13 his arm was cut off at the shoulder. My wife lost her mother and her
14 sister-in-law, who was pregnant. She was seven months pregnant.
15 Q. Mr. Popovic --
16 A. And she was 20 years old.
17 Q. Mr. Popovic, did you ever have a visit or a contact from members
18 of Momir Nikolic's Defence team?
19 A. Yes. Yes, they came to my home. It was in late February or
20 early March. Two unknown men turned up and introduced themselves as
21 Momir Nikolic's counsel. They asked me if I knew him, and I said I did.
22 They asked me if I knew where he was. I said I knew he was in The Hague.
23 And then they asked me to be a witness in Nikolic's defence, and they
24 talked to me. I refused this. I said I had family obligations, I had to
25 work, support my family, I didn't have time to go and testify. After
1 this, they left and they never turned up again.
2 Q. Was this visit by Nikolic's Defence team requesting that you be a
3 witness for Momir Nikolic in this trial, was this before or after you read
4 what Nikolic had told the Prosecutors about you and the others?
5 A. Before. Before. This was in February or March. Nobody arrived
6 in May.
7 Q. All right. Now, after -- after it was published, what
8 Momir Nikolic had stated about you and the others, did you give a
9 statement to the Bratunac police?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Let me show you what we will be marking as D205 for
12 identification. And we have an English version as well for the ELMO. Do
13 you recognise what I am handing you, sir?
14 A. Yes. This is my signature.
15 Q. And what is the date of this statement, sir?
16 A. The date?
17 Q. You may find it on the first page.
18 A. The 28th of August, 2003. That's when I gave the statement.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. I -- we don't need to go through the statement
20 at this point. But just to ask you about it: When you gave a statement
21 to the police, were you questioned about your activities surrounding the
22 fall of Srebrenica and particularly the accusations that Momir Nikolic had
23 lodged against you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you tell the police the same thing that you've told us
1 under oath, and that is that you were not involved in any executions at
2 the Kravica warehouse?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Incidentally, just so we clear the air on this one,
5 have you been involved in any atrocities during that period?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, before we talk about those days, first tell us a little bit
8 about yourself. You told us that you're from Kravica. Where did you --
9 A. From Kravica, near Bratunac. I was mobilised in 1992, even
10 though I was a minor. Before the war, I worked in a private bakery. And
11 when the war began, a military bakery was set up, and this is where I
12 worked until the fall of Kravica in 1993. And that's how I served in the
13 army, as a baker.
14 After the fall of Kravica in 1993, in the 1st Battalion, together
15 with my fellow people from Kravica I worked in the kitchen until 1995, and
16 then I went to join the military police.
17 Q. Okay. Do you know about what time, what month in 1995, that you
18 became a military policeman with the Bratunac Brigade?
19 A. This was in early June, late May or early June.
20 Q. And could you briefly tell us in general what your functions were
21 or your duties were as a military police officer. And I'm speaking prior
22 to the fall of Srebrenica.
23 A. Yes. Yes. It was my duty as a military policeman to arrest
24 people who didn't want to go to the front line and bring them in. We made
25 sure that there was no disorder in the town. We secured high-ranking
1 officers who came to visit, secured the roads. This period just before
2 the fall of Srebrenica, we were securing the Sase-Pribicevac road, where
3 the high-ranking officers travelled to the first line of defence. Our
4 task was to secure this road, which went through a wood. There were some
5 15 of us policemen, and we were deployed every 50 or 100 metres, and they
6 would pass by and then come back, and we were there the whole time. In
7 the evening, we were at the police, and then we would do the same again,
8 and that's what we did before the fall of Srebrenica.
9 Q. All right. Now, I want to give you as a reference date July
10 11th, 1995, a day that is fixed with respect to the fall of Srebrenica.
11 So keeping that date in mind as a reference, could you please tell us if
12 you recall what you did -- or what you were doing the day Srebrenica fell.
13 A. I was at the police on the 11th of July. Our task was to work in
14 the town, to secure these officers who came. They were having talks in
15 Hotel Fontana in Bratunac, and we secured the Fontana Hotel and the
16 surrounding area.
17 Q. Okay. July 12th, the next day, could you please tell us what you
19 A. On the 12th of July, I was off. It was our big holiday,
20 St. Peter's Day, so I was off.
21 Q. All right. Well, what did you do on your day off?
22 A. We had a soccer game. Bratunac Bratstvo was to play on the town
23 stadium in Bratunac, but because of these operations the game was played
24 in Milici. It was a game against Bijeljina. I played for this club. I
25 was off that day so I could go to the match, and after that I was to
1 report to the military police.
2 Q. All right. Well -- and so you did in fact go to play in Milici
3 on that particular day?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you tell us about what time you returned to Bratunac and
6 about what time you reported back to the military police.
7 A. I arrived in the military police sometime between 8.00 and 9.00
8 in the evening.
9 Q. Would you please tell us when you reported back to the military
10 police, what, if any, tasks you were given.
11 A. On that evening, I was not given any tasks. I spent the night in
12 the military police quarters.
13 Q. The next day, July 13th, could you please tell us what you did
14 that day, in a chronological order.
15 A. On that day - this was the 13th - I was deployed in Potocari. In
16 the morning of the 13th, we were given our tasks and I was deployed in
18 Q. All right. Now I want to go step by step. First of all, could
19 you please tell us who it was that ordered you or deployed you to
21 A. I don't know exactly who issued the order. It was the duty
22 officer. He read out the list of men who were to go to Potocari. It was
23 about half of us. There were some 12 or 15 military policemen deployed in
25 Q. Would you please tell us about what time it was that you were
2 A. It might have been between 8.00 and 9.00 in the morning.
3 Q. All right. Do you know how you -- could you please tell us how
4 you got to Potocari from Bratunac.
5 A. We arrived in our car. We had a car, a TAM van, a military one,
6 and a Pinz. We used the TAM to go to Potocari.
7 Q. Okay. Who was your komandir among you, if there was one?
8 A. It was Mirko Jankovic from Bratunac.
9 Q. Was he with you at that point in time? I know he was the
10 commander of the military police, but do you recall whether he was with
11 you on that particular morning, the morning of July 13, 1995?
12 A. No. I do remember -- it wasn't him. No, no, it was ...
13 Q. Okay. Now, once you got to Potocari, could you please tell us
14 what exactly you did.
15 A. We were providing security. The UNPROFOR battalion was also
16 there - I don't know exactly which one - but we were there together in a
17 compound, and up above there were some soldiers wearing black overalls. I
18 think it was some kind of special unit, and they were letting the
19 civilians go through, and we were just securing the road to the buses. We
20 were deployed there, and they were boarding the buses.
21 Q. Do you recall who it was that gave you that particular task?
22 A. No, no, I don't remember. There was the patrol leader there, but
23 I can't recall his name.
24 Q. Were you ever ordered or did you ever engage in the separation
25 process, that is, separating the men, military-age men, from their
2 A. No. That was not our task. It was other soldiers who did that.
3 The ones that they separated off, we had to put them on buses. That was
4 the task of us military policemen. UNPROFOR was there too, and we were
5 just securing the route from the place where they were separating people
6 off to the buses. It might have been some 70 or 100 metres from there to
7 where the buses were parked.
8 Q. Now, could you please tell us who those other soldiers were that
9 were engaged in the separation process.
10 A. These were soldiers belonging to some special unit. They wore a
11 special type of clothing too, some kind of black overalls and caps and
12 things like that, a special unit. Now, I don't know what else I can say.
13 It was their task to do that.
14 Q. Do you know who was commanding them?
15 A. I don't know. At that time, General Krstic was there, Mladic
16 also came. He would come and go and come and go.
17 Q. All right. Did you by any chance have any conversations with
18 those men to find out who they were, where they were from, why they were
20 A. We didn't dare walk up to them, let alone talk to them.
21 Q. Why not?
22 A. Well, we couldn't get up to them when they were above us then.
23 Q. Now, you said that you were securing a road or securing a
24 pathway. Could you please describe that to us. What exactly you were
25 doing? You and the others, that is, so we have some kind of a visual
2 A. Well, from the place where the separation took place to the bus,
3 there was about 80 to 100 metres, and the Muslim detainees went on foot.
4 So we were by the road, and they were walking down the asphalt road to the
6 Q. Were you ever ordered by anyone to abuse any of those people,
7 those refugees, men or women?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you?
10 A. No, no, no.
11 Q. Did you see whether any other members of the Bratunac Military
12 Police were there abusing the women, the children, the men?
13 A. No. No one from our unit did.
14 Q. Would you please tell us how long you were in Potocari on that
15 day, that is, July 13, 1995.
16 A. Well, we were there while the civilians were getting out, and
17 then the military-age, able-bodied men started boarding the buses. I
18 don't know exactly how many there were, say about 15. And then after that
19 we boarded the buses, and we took the Muslim population towards Bratunac.
20 Q. All right. At what time did you eventually leave Potocari?
21 A. It was around noon or, rather, 2.00 or 3.00, something like that.
22 Q. All right. And after that, where were you tasked?
23 A. We boarded the buses, where the Muslim inhabitants were, the
24 able-bodied ones of military age.
25 Q. Who ordered you to board the buses?
1 A. I don't know exactly. This man I don't know, who was there, who
2 was in charge, he said, "You, the military police, you provide security
3 for these men," and they stayed back in Potocari.
4 Q. Was that man -- did you recognise that man? Did you know him?
5 A. No. No, I did not know him.
6 Q. That wasn't Momir Nikolic, was it?
7 A. No, I don't remember. No.
8 Q. Okay. Now, do you know -- from the way he was dressed, were you
9 able to recognise whether he was an officer or just a -- a soldier, like
11 A. No. No, it was an officer. He even had that cap, that officer's
12 cap on his head, and he had officer's insignia, and he said, "You military
13 police report to escort the convoy."
14 Q. What -- did you say to him that -- did you ask him who he was to
15 give you orders, since you didn't recognise him, and from that answer it
16 would appear that he wasn't from the Bratunac Brigade?
17 A. No, he wasn't from the Bratunac Brigade for sure. We didn't ask
18 him anything. We did what he told us to do.
19 Q. But I guess I'm -- I'm a little lost here. If he wasn't from the
20 Bratunac Brigade, he wasn't your komandir, he wasn't your komandant, why
21 didn't you tell him that -- that he had no business giving you orders,
22 that he wasn't in a position to give you orders?
23 A. Well, we didn't dare say that, because we saw he was some kind of
24 an officer, that he had some kind of insignia and that he was wearing an
25 officer's uniform.
1 Q. All right. Now, when you got to Bratunac, could you please tell
2 us what you did that day. You said you left in the afternoon.
3 A. Yes. We left on those buses that were taking the Muslim people
4 from Srebrenica. We went towards the school, to be precise, the
5 Branko Radicevic School, I think that was the name of the school at that
6 time. And the Muslims were put up at that school.
7 Q. Did it not seem rather strange to you that they would just be
8 taken from Potocari and bussed just 5 kilometres away and be put in -- in
9 the Bratunac town? Didn't that seem odd to you?
10 A. Well, I don't know what to say to you. It was as if they were
11 supposed to be put up there, and then when everybody left, then -- well,
12 that's what people were saying.
13 Q. Did anybody tell you what was going to happen to these people?
14 A. No. No. Nobody said anything.
15 Q. Did anyone tell you where they were going to go?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Incidentally, how old were you at the time?
18 A. Twenty-one.
19 Q. Okay. Now, you said you took the men over there, the able-bodied
20 Muslim men, to the school. Did you stay there?
21 A. Yes. We stayed there until about 7.00 or 8.00 in the evening.
22 Q. And now, you say "we." Who is "we"?
23 A. We, the military police of the Bratunac Brigade.
24 Q. Were you inside or outside the school?
25 A. We were inside in the school, where we had put up the Muslims,
1 when that unit came, the one that was up there in Potocari. Then at that
2 time, another convoy arrived, a bit bigger, and we left the school, where
3 we had been inside. And then we were deployed from the school towards the
4 main street -- or rather, this big street that went to the main street. I
5 don't know how to explain this to you. I don't know what to say.
6 Actually, it's where the socially-owned bakery was in Bratunac.
7 Q. All right. That's a side street?
8 A. Yes, a side street, about over 100 metres. And that's where the
9 buses were that had come from the direction of Konjevic Polje.
10 Q. All right. Could you please tell us who it was that ordered you
11 to actually go into the school with the prisoners, you know, these
12 able-bodied men.
13 A. That officer who sent us to the buses to go with them, and he
14 said that we should be there until the soldiers from Potocari came down
16 Q. All right. And when you got to -- to Bratunac and -- and
17 eventually you said you -- you got outside and you were standing outside
18 the school, was there an officer there that was in charge?
19 A. Yes. Momir Nikolic came to us then and said, "Be there at the
20 school." So we were there at the school until about 7.00 or 8.00. And
21 then when the convoy came, we went along that street that was lit.
22 Q. All right. But aside from Momir Nikolic, was anybody in charge?
23 Was there a komandir there to make sure that the various people guarding
24 the buses could be placed at various locations?
25 A. No. No, there was no one.
1 Q. Now, you said at some point you left around 7.00 or 8.00; is that
3 A. When the convoy came, we were in front of the school, in that
4 street, providing security for the buses that were parked in the street.
5 Q. All right. And then you indicated that at some point the
6 soldiers from Potocari came; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were those the same soldiers that you indicated with the black
9 uniforms that were doing the separation?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Yes, in black uniforms.
13 Q. All right. Now, where did you spend the night?
14 A. That night the military police had the task to provide security
15 for the buses in that street where the buses were.
16 Q. All right. And did you stay there the entire night?
17 A. Yes. The military police stayed there the entire night. But
18 since I had an apartment right there, I went to get a bit of a rest,
19 because I was quite tired by then and I couldn't take it any longer. I
20 went and got some rest, and I joined my colleagues in the morning. I
21 asked my colleagues to let me go and get some rest for a while, and I
22 said, "If anything happens, just call me."
23 Q. Do you know about what time it was that you went to your
24 apartment to get some rest?
25 A. It was around 10.00, 10.00 or 11.00.
1 Q. Now, from where you were standing, could you please tell us how
2 close you were to the stadium that's located in Bratunac town.
3 A. That is very close. It's not even 40 or 50 metres from the
4 bakery to the stadium.
5 Q. All right. We anticipate having a witness coming here at some
6 point testifying that there were some 1.500 Muslim able-bodied men there
7 and that they were being gunned down, executed, by several people. My
8 question is: While you were there on the 13th on that street, some 40 to
9 50 metres away from the stadium, did you hear executions going on? Bursts
10 of gunfire, as people would be unloading their clips, their entire clips,
11 shooting at masses of people?
12 A. No. No, nothing was heard there, not a single bullet was fired
13 when we, the military police, were there.
14 Q. All right. Now, if you were -- if that had occurred, bursts of
15 gunfire, if that had occurred, do you think it would have been possible
16 for you to have heard it?
17 A. How could we not have heard it? I told you, it's about 50
18 metres. Of course we'd have to hear it.
19 Q. Over the years, have you ever heard of any stories of a large
20 number of Muslims being executed there in the open on that particular
22 A. No, I did not hear any stories in Bratunac that some kind of a
23 massacre had happened or that somebody was killed at that time.
24 Q. Tell us what you did the next day. You said that you went home,
25 got some rest, and then rejoined your -- your colleagues. What did you do
1 when you got back to that location?
2 A. I was there. It was 8.00 or 9.00, and the convoy was getting
3 ready to leave for Zvornik, in the direction of Zvornik. I know that
4 Momir Nikolic himself told me to go up to headquarters, to the military
5 police, to report to Jankovic in order to hear what else we were supposed
6 to do. I went there with another colleague, and Jankovic was by the
7 UNPROFOR APC that was there at our military police headquarters. I saw
8 that he was doing something there, and he was there and I said to him, "Go
9 and get ready. You're supposed to come with me to escort the convoy that
10 was going to Zvornik."
11 Q. All right. You told him or he told you?
12 A. I reported to Jankovic, and then he --
13 Q. He told you to get ready.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now --
16 MS. ISSA: Excuse me, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
18 MS. ISSA: I'm just wondering if we can clarify precisely who the
19 witness is referring to, which Jankovic.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
21 MS. ISSA: Just for the sake of clarity, for the record.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, for the sake of the record.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes.
24 Q. You indicated earlier that your komandir was Jankovic, the
25 commander of the military police; correct?
1 A. Yes. Mirko Jankovic, the commander of the military police.
2 Q. Is that the same Mirko Jankovic that you reported to?
3 A. Yes, Nikolic ordered me to report to Mirko Jankovic up there at
4 the military police.
5 Q. Did you know by any chance -- you haven't mentioned it, but just
6 in case -- did you know a Colonel Jankovic? Not Mirko, but another, a
7 Colonel Jankovic from the Main Staff?
8 A. I can't remember that Jankovic. I don't know.
9 Q. All right. All right. So you -- so you reported to
10 Mirko Jankovic. He was at the -- with the white APC, the UN APC. He told
11 you to get ready. What happened then?
12 A. Then he drove the APC. We got into the APC. And then we parked
13 by the power supply company in Bratunac. That's where we parked, and we
14 were waiting for this convoy, these buses. We were in the front of the
15 column with this APC.
16 Q. Did Mirko Jankovic tell you what the mission was?
17 A. Yes. He said that we were escorting the convoy.
18 Q. Did he tell you where you were escorting the convoy to?
19 A. Well, he didn't tell me where we were escorting the convoy.
20 Later on, when we arrived in Zvornik, it was clear to me that it was
22 Q. Did Mirko Jankovic tell you why they were being transported to
23 the Zvornik area?
24 A. No, nothing.
25 Q. Did you have any idea why they were being taken in that
2 A. No.
3 Q. All right. Now, where exactly did you and Mirko Jankovic, with
4 the APC, go to?
5 A. I don't know exactly what the name of the place is, but I can
6 explain which place this was exactly. We passed Zvornik. We came to
7 Karakaj and we passed the flyover, this big flyover. And after the
8 flyover, we went about 50 or 100 metres, and then we turned to the left,
9 an asphalt road too, and then we went for about 2 or 3 kilometres. Then
10 there was a big school there.
11 Q. Okay. Had you ever been there before?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, when you pulled off to the road -- or in -- well,
14 incidentally, let me back up. Was there anyone pointing the direction for
15 Mirko Jankovic?
16 A. Yes. There was a car in front of the APC.
17 Q. And do you know who was in the car, who was leading the convoy?
18 A. In that car -- well, the car was a Golf. There were some men in
19 it. I don't know them. I didn't know these men who were in front.
20 Q. You stated you didn't know them. You didn't recognise them as
22 A. No. No, I didn't recognise them. I didn't know them. They were
23 officers though.
24 Q. But since you didn't recognise them, can we safely assume that
25 they were not officers of the Bratunac Brigade?
1 A. Yes. I know all the officers of the Bratunac Brigade, because we
2 were there together, the military police and the Bratunac Brigade, and I
3 know all of our officers of the Bratunac Brigade.
4 Q. Would you please tell us: When you got to that location when you
5 pulled off the road and you said you went to a -- to where a school was
6 located, what did you see? Please describe that for us.
7 A. While I was going on the APC, you mean?
8 Q. Yes. Well, once you got there -- we'll go back and talk about
9 what you saw on the way, but when you got there, to that location.
10 A. Yes. When we came to that school, in front of that school there
11 were some soldiers that were waiting for the convoy. There were soldiers
12 that were waiting there.
13 Q. Did you recognise the soldiers?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did they have the same kind of uniforms worn by the
16 Bratunac Brigade soldiers?
17 A. No. They had special ones. There was a unit there that wore
18 these black -- bluish-black overalls, I don't know what to call them, and
19 they wore caps. There were about 30 of them there, and I saw that there
20 were other people there too. I don't know whether they were locals or
21 whatever, but they were all not wearing the same clothing. They were all
22 not wearing the same uniforms. I told you, this unit of about 30 men wore
23 one type of uniform.
24 Q. All right. Now, was there someone in charge over there and did
25 you notice if -- if there was a komandant or a komandir in charge?
1 A. Well, there was. There was. These men who were in front of us
2 got out of that car.
3 Q. All right. Now, what was going on when you arrived there? You
4 described who you saw, but could you tell us what, if anything, was
5 happening at the time.
6 A. Well, nothing was happening. We stopped the APC there. We got
7 out of it. Then the Muslim people started getting out too. They were
8 getting off all the buses that were there. There were about two or three
9 soldiers who sat with them on the buses, who were securing the buses. So
10 nothing, they got out, went into the school, and then we stayed there for
11 about 15 minutes to half an hour. We got onto the APC and returned to the
12 military police.
13 Q. Did you notice if there were any abuses going on at the time that
14 you were there?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you hear why the men were being placed in that school, while
17 you were there, that is?
18 A. We didn't hear anything.
19 Q. Did you know at that point in time what, if anything, was going
20 to happen to these men?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did it not seem strange to you then that once again these men
23 were being transported from one location, one facility, to another
24 facility? Didn't that seem strange to you, albeit you were 21 years old
25 at the time and were with the military police only for a short period of
2 A. Well, nothing. I don't know.
3 Q. Did Mirko Jankovic, who was a bit more seasoned, did he make any
4 comments as to what he knew or suspected?
5 A. Well, it's not that we talked that much. In the APC, he was
6 driving and I was sitting way back. We didn't really talk. We didn't
7 make any comments.
8 Q. Incidentally, was there anyone else with you in this APC?
9 A. Yes. Yes. There were three of us in that vehicle.
10 Q. Who was the third person?
11 A. A colleague, Mile Petrovic.
12 Q. Now, you said you stayed there for about 15 minutes to a half an
13 hour. While you were there, did you see any executions going on?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Did you see any corpses, any dead bodies laying around?
16 A. No. No, no.
17 Q. Where did you go afterwards?
18 A. Back to the military police in Bratunac. We went back there.
19 Q. How many trips that day did you make to that location with the
21 A. Only one.
22 Q. Now, I would like to spend a few moments with you describing to
23 us what, if anything, you observed on the way from Bratunac to that
24 location, on the way there or on the way back. Did you notice anything
25 unusual on the road?
1 A. No. In Konjevic Polje, there were our soldiers and we stopped to
2 ask if the road was open, if it was possible to pass through in the
3 direction of Bratunac. They told us it was, and we continued on our way.
4 Q. All right. When you say "there were our soldiers," are you
5 talking the VRS soldiers or are you saying Bratunac Brigade soldiers?
6 A. We didn't know those soldiers there in Konjevic Polje.
7 Q. Okay. There were Serbs -- VRS soldiers?
8 A. Yes. Yes. Serbs.
9 Q. Now, on your way from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, you have to
10 pass the -- the Kravica agricultural warehouse. So on the way to
11 Konjevic Polje, that would be on your right; on the way back, it would be,
12 again -- no, on your way there, it would be on your left; on your way
13 back, it would be on your right. Did you notice anything unusual as you
14 passed the Kravica agricultural warehouse?
15 A. No, we didn't notice anything. We just passed by along the road
16 and went to Bratunac.
17 Q. Okay. Now, when you got to Bratunac, do you know about what time
18 it was?
19 A. Well, it was just before dark. I don't know what time it was
21 Q. All right. And what did you do then for the rest of the day?
22 This is July 14th.
23 A. The 14th of July, when we arrived in Bratunac at the military
24 police on the 14th, there were UNPROFOR soldiers there, the ones who had
25 been in Potocari and then they went to the school in Bratunac. And we
1 secured those UNPROFOR soldiers who were put up in the school.
2 Q. And how long did you do that?
3 A. It wasn't for a long time. They soon left that place.
4 Q. Well --
5 A. It was only a few hours that we spent securing them.
6 Q. The next day, July 15th, do you recall what you did?
7 A. Yes, I do. Then we went to Potocari, where UNPROFOR was. That
8 was some sort of -- I don't know what you call it. It was a company, a
9 big company, and in that period there were UNPROFOR soldiers quartered
10 there and we secured their warehouse. There were all sorts of things
11 there, weapons, food, fuel, and we the military police were there securing
12 that warehouse of theirs, and we stayed there six or seven days or five or
13 seven days. I don't know exactly. We were accommodated there.
14 Q. During this period, did you ever go to Branjevo Farm, the
15 Branjevo Military Farm?
16 A. No. I don't even know where that is.
17 Q. Did you ever go to Pilica and to patrol that area?
18 A. No.
19 Q. When was the first time that you heard about the Kravica
20 agricultural massacre, if you want to put it that way, the executions that
21 took place in Kravica, in the Kravica warehouse?
22 A. I don't know the precise date when I heard about it, but it was
23 afterwards, after all these events. I can't remember the exact date. It
24 was seven or ten days later. We were there near Potocari, but no one
25 had ...
1 Q. All right. Now, we've heard testimony in this court that some 50
2 bodies were found in that school in Bratunac, the very same school that
3 you had taken the prisoners there on the afternoon of July 13, 1995. Were
4 you aware of that?
5 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
6 Q. Now, do you know what happened to the men that you had escorted
7 on that morning of the 14th of July, 1995 as you turned off the road to
8 Zvornik and took them to that school? Do you know what happened to those
10 A. I don't know, but I heard afterwards, about a year later, when
11 television started broadcasting things about this, that they had been
13 Q. All right. Now, we started by talking a little bit about
14 Momir Nikolic, and you told us why you believe he provided false testimony
15 under oath about you and the others. Could you please tell us what your
16 relationship was with Momir Nikolic, professionally speaking. Did you get
17 on with the man, as they say?
18 A. No, we didn't get on very well, because after the Srebrenica
19 operation, when we were in Potocari securing UNPROFOR he sent the 15 of us
20 to Trnovo, Treskavica, where the offensive was taking place. He said,
21 "You're going up there as military policemen to be there at the command in
22 Trnovo," and we were to do the job of military policemen. However, when
23 we arrived up there, we spent some three or four days there, and then an
24 order arrived from Momir that we were to go to Treskavica, to Trnovo, up
25 there to the war theatre. We didn't want to go. We refused to obey this
1 order. And then he took offence at this and he came up there and he said
2 to us, "You are not military policemen any more. You're done with the
3 military police." And that's how it was. When we came back, we no longer
4 worked as military policemen, so that we were not on good terms.
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Petrovic [sic], I want to thank you very much for
6 answering all of my questions. If you could be as frank and forthright
7 with my colleague here, Mr. Stojanovic, or the Prosecution on that end, or
8 the Judges in answering their questions, I would most appreciate it.
9 Thank you again for coming to The Hague.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I have no further questions on
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.
13 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to put to this witness?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
15 Good morning, Mr. Popovic.
16 By your leave, Your Honour, I will ask a few questions in
17 connection with the transfer in the direction of Zvornik. If you agree,
18 we can do this after the break. I don't think I will take more than 10 or
19 15 minutes.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's almost time for a break, so we'll have the
21 break first and then we'll resume at quarter to 11.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, your questions, please.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic, I would like to put only a few
3 questions to you about the events of the 14th of July when you set out in
4 the direction of Zvornik.
5 During your examination-in-chief, you said that between 9.00 and
6 10.00 you began lining up in a column; is this correct?
7 A. [No audible response]
8 Q. At the head of a column was an UNPROFOR or UN vehicle.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In this vehicle, which was driven by Mirko Jankovic,
11 Mile Petrovic and you were inside; is this correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you recall approximately when you set out from Bratunac?
14 A. At around 11.00, 11.30, or 12.00. I can't be very precise.
15 Q. What is the distance between Bratunac and the place where you
16 arrived? Or to put it more simply, what is the distance between Bratunac
17 and Zvornik?
18 A. Between Bratunac and Zvornik? I think some 40 to 50 kilometres,
19 something like that.
20 Q. How much time did you need to cross that road in that long
22 A. I don't know exactly how long it took, but about an hour and a
23 half or two hours.
24 Q. What is the distance between Zvornik and the school where you
25 arrived approximately?
1 A. I can tell you from Karakaj. I don't know how far it is from
2 Zvornik to Karakaj, but after we passed the flyover at Karakaj, we turned
3 left, and then it was about 2 or 2 and a half kilometres down the road, I
4 think. I can't be very precise because I never went there except then.
5 Q. If I have added up these hours correctly, may I conclude that you
6 arrived at the school at around 1.30 or 2.00?
7 A. It's possible. I can't tell you very precisely. How should I
8 know? I can just give you my own estimation. I can't tell you precisely.
9 Q. Well, let's try and agree that it was in the afternoon in any
11 A. Yes, it's possible. I can't be precise.
12 Q. And as I understood it, you did not linger in Zvornik. You
13 continued on toward Karakaj and then turned left. Is this correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When were you joined by the Golf vehicle which was driving in
16 front of the APC?
17 A. It set out from Bratunac with the convoy. I know that when we
18 stopped, they were in front of us, but I can't tell you the name, but I
19 saw a man getting out of the Golf and he said that we should just follow
21 Q. So I would be correct in saying that along the entire road from
22 Bratunac to that school the Golf vehicle was driving in front of your
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. When you reached the school and when the prisoners
1 began to disembark, did they go to the school or to the gym? Can you
3 A. I don't know whether it was a gym, but it was a big hall. That's
4 where they went. I could see those big glass windows and it seemed to be
5 some sort of gym. I don't know what the hall was actually used for.
6 Q. Before the prisoners arrived in that hall, there were no other
7 prisoners there?
8 A. No, there weren't.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honours,
10 could we now go into private session? Because I wish to mention the name
11 of a protected witness. I'd like to check it with this witness.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
13 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 Any cross-examination?
21 MS. ISSA: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you. I do
22 have a few questions.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Ms. Issa.
24 Cross-examined by Ms. Issa:
25 Q. Good morning, sir. I just want to go back to when you told us
1 that the duty officer ordered you to go to Potocari on the 13th of July.
2 I just want to clarify, sir: Was that the military police duty officer
3 that you are referring to?
4 A. The duty officer who was in the military police, he was a
5 policeman but he was on duty, and he told us that we were to go to
6 Potocari, that that's the roster. That was the duty officer who was at
7 the police station.
8 Q. Okay. And perhaps, if I refer you to the military police log, it
9 might refresh your memory as to who that duty officer was. We can perhaps
10 put the 12 and 13 July 1995 on the ELMO, please.
11 MS. ISSA: And that, for the record, is P449, Your Honour.
12 Thank you.
13 Q. Now, it says there, sir, that the duty officer was listed as
14 Mile Petrovic on that date. Does that assist you in refreshing your
15 memory as to who it was that ordered you go to Potocari?
16 A. No, I really can't remember who read out that we should go to
17 Potocari. I was there -- I was new in the police. I didn't know my
18 colleagues well. I really cannot recall.
19 Q. Okay. That's fine. But you did know Mile Petrovic; right? I
20 think you mentioned him before in the examination-in-chief.
21 A. Yes, I knew Mile Petrovic, but I can't remember for the life of
22 me who it was that read out.
23 Q. That's fine, sir. Thank you.
24 Did you see any buses -- sorry, could you tell us how many buses
25 went from Potocari to Bratunac carrying the able-bodied men that you've
1 told us about earlier?
2 A. On that day in Potocari, when we, the military police, escorted
3 them to the school down there, I can't tell you exactly, but there were
4 about 15 buses maybe, something like that.
5 Q. And they -- the buses contained a large group of men; in other
6 words, could you tell us if the buses were crowded with men? Is that
8 A. The seats were all filled, but they weren't packed with people.
9 Q. Now, when you were in Potocari and you saw the men being loaded
10 onto the buses and the women being loaded onto separate buses, did you see
11 anybody kick or hit or abuse any of the Muslims?
12 A. No, I didn't see that.
13 Q. Did you hear of anybody getting shot or killed in Potocari, any
14 of the Muslims?
15 A. No. No.
16 Q. Can you describe for us what the reaction was of the women and
17 children when the men were separated from them?
18 A. Yes, I can describe the reaction. They were miserable. They
19 were crying. It's not easy to leave all that property. I know from my
20 own experience. I lost everything I had, so I know what it was like for
21 them. It wasn't easy.
22 Q. Okay. Well, I wasn't referring to the property per se, sir. I
23 was referring to the men being separated from the women and children.
24 A. Yes. First the women and children and old men went out, and then
25 the able-bodied military-age men went out.
1 Q. Okay. So when the able-bodied men were separated from the rest
2 of the crowd, what was the reaction of the women, children, and the
4 A. They weren't there at all. They had left earlier. The convoy
5 with the women and children left earlier.
6 Q. However, they were separated from -- the men were separated from
7 the crowd while the women and children were there; isn't that right?
8 A. I don't know exactly. I think that the women and children left
9 before the men left Potocari. First the women, children, and old men left
10 on the buses.
11 Q. Well, I'm not talking, sir, about them leaving on the buses.
12 Right now I'm only referring to the actual separations. In order for the
13 women and children to leave on the buses first, the men must have been
14 removed from the crowd. There were no men on the women-and-children
15 buses; isn't that what happened?
16 A. I don't know. I wasn't where the separation was up there; I was
17 down by the street. I was securing the street. I wasn't up there where
18 this separation was exactly taking place, and I don't know whether they
19 were all together or whether they were separate, the men and the
20 civilians. I don't know that, in Potocari.
21 Q. Well, did you see the separations?
22 A. No, no, I did not, because I was down there, perhaps about 100
23 metres away from the place where the separation took place. There's a
24 curve and we just stood by the road, and that's where the Muslim
25 inhabitants passed.
1 Q. Did you see where the men were taken to when they were -- when
2 they were separated or after they were separated?
3 A. Yes. Afterwards, the men went by us.
4 Q. Okay. And were they not placed in a -- in a house nearby, while
5 the operation of removing the women was taking place?
6 A. I cannot remember that. I am telling you I was not there where
7 they were being separated. I was lower down, about 100 metres away, where
8 the buses were. We held that road.
9 Q. Now, earlier, sir, in your examination-in-chief there was a
10 statement that was referred to that you made to the Bratunac Brigade
11 Military Police -- or sorry, the Bratunac Brigade police station.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MS. ISSA:
14 Q. I should say the Bratunac police station. I misspoke. Okay, you
15 recall that, sir? And it was given on August 28, 2003; right? Perhaps if
16 we can get you a copy of your statement and you can identify it for us.
17 MS. ISSA: If I can ask the usher to place the English version on
18 the ELMO. I would ask that we place page 2 on the ELMO, please.
19 Q. Now, sir, before we get to that, if you look at the very end of
20 your statement. I would just ask you to turn to the very last page.
21 MS. ISSA: If we can maybe place the last page on the ELMO as
22 well. Perhaps we can start with that. Thank you.
23 Q. When you made this statement, sir, to the police, was it a
24 truthful statement?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And we see here at the --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And we see here --
4 A. This is a signature. This is my signature on that statement.
5 Q. Okay. So you signed the statement. And above that, it says that
6 you had an opportunity to read over your statement before you signed it
7 and that you had no objections to it and you had nothing further to add;
8 isn't that right?
9 A. Well, that's correct.
10 Q. Okay. And when you gave the statement, you've told us that it
11 was a truthful one; isn't that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Now, if we can then, please, turn to page 2 of the
14 statement, have the -- have that pulled up a little bit, please, so we can
15 see the very -- I'd like to see the very bottom of the statement. Thank
17 Now, at the very last sentence on that page, sir, after you say
18 that "There were about 10 or 15 of us members to have police there," and
19 you're referring to Potocari, you go on to say, "That same day we were
20 ordered to separate the women, children, and elderly, who according to
21 plan were supposed to be transferred by bus and freight vehicles towards
23 And if we can perhaps just turn to the next page on the ELMO so
24 we can continue along. I'm just reading from the very top of the page.
25 I'm sorry, if you can just move that down so we can see the very top of
1 the page. Thank you.
2 Now, you go on to say, sir, that that -- that you don't know who
3 exactly issued that order; you learned about it from your colleagues. And
4 then you talk about the buses that came from Bratunac, Vihor, the
5 Zvornik-Drina and Srebrenica-Prevoz transportation companies. You
6 describe the women, children, and elderly getting into buses and trucks,
7 and then you continue on and you say, "After a convoy was formed, they
8 were taken in the direction of the Bratunac and further on towards
9 Kladanj. That same afternoon, the rest of the people from the group who
10 were primarily able-bodied men were transferred by buses and trucks from
11 Potocari to Bratunac."
12 So according to your statement, sir, it appears that the military
13 police were ordered to separate the women and children from the men.
14 Isn't that what happened?
15 A. No, that's not what happened. This is the statement I made, that
16 we were in Potocari in that place, but that's not really what we did. We
17 held the road. We secured the road, and Muslims came down to that road,
18 to those buses. It's about 100 kilometres [as interpreted] away. That's
19 the statement I made. We were not there on the actual site that -- and it
20 was not that we were doing the actual separation. That was not our task.
21 The statement that I gave was that we were there in Potocari.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, in -- in the transcript, there should be 100
23 metres away, rather than 100 kilometres away.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MS. ISSA:
1 Q. Can you tell us, sir, just to clarify for the record, how far
2 away you were.
3 A. I was or we were away from that place where the separation took
4 place. Down to the buses it was about, say, 100 metres. I can't tell you
5 exactly, but say 100.
6 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour, for pointing that out.
7 Q. Now, sir, you've already told us that you had -- that there were
8 about 15 buses with men that you and your colleagues escorted to Bratunac.
9 Can you tell us whether the Muslim men had their belongings with them when
10 they were escorted to Bratunac.
11 A. No. No, they didn't have anything on them.
12 Q. Do you know what happened to their belongings?
13 A. I don't know. I don't know.
14 Q. You didn't think that was unusual?
15 A. No. They didn't have anything on them. Perhaps somebody had a
16 bag of food or something, but it's not that they had any big bags or
17 something like that. I didn't see anything.
18 Q. And you said that you -- they were escorted to a school. And I
19 just want to clarify. Was that the Vuk Karadzic School that they were
20 escorted to?
21 A. I think that that school changed its name now. Now it's
22 Vuk Karadzic, but at that time I think it was Branko Radicevic, the school
23 that they were put up in.
24 Q. I just want to clarify that that's the same school that we were
25 referring to, that we know as Vuk Karadzic -- Karadzic; is that right?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. And when you were there, you said that there were other Bratunac
3 Brigade military police with you that were at one point securing the
4 school, securing the Muslims in the school; is that right?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. Did you see any other Bratunac Brigade soldiers, regular soldiers
7 at the school?
8 A. No. No. It was only us, the military police. We were securing
9 the school.
10 Q. Did you see any other military police that you did not know?
11 A. Yes. Afterwards, before it got dark, the corps police came and
12 they were there after 8.00 or 9.00 in the evening, later on.
13 Q. Okay. And were they -- what were they doing there?
14 A. I don't know what they were doing. At any rate, they came in the
15 escort. I mean, when those buses came from the stadium. I saw them
16 walking around, and I saw the words "Corps police of Republika Srpska"
18 Q. Were they guarding the Muslims in the school or on the buses?
19 A. In the school, it was the special police that was guarding them.
20 We were there until the evening, 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening. I don't
21 know the exact hour. And then they came to the school. Because there
22 wasn't any electricity at the school or anything. We went out, and they
23 came to the school, and then we went from the school to this street
24 towards the main street. I don't know the exact name of the street. But
25 it's not the centre. It's from the school towards the main street, where
1 the bakery is.
2 Q. So you're saying that you left the school at about 6.00 or 7.00
3 in the evening.; right?
4 A. Yes. Yes. The military police left the school, and these
5 people, these -- this special unit came to that school, and we were
6 transferred to this street.
7 Q. Okay. And when you say "we, the military police," just for
8 clarification, you're --
9 A. The military police, yes.
10 Q. You're referring to the Bratunac Brigade Military Police; right?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. I'd like to go to your -- to your statement, if I can just get
13 the assistance of Mr. Usher. I'd ask that we turn to page 3, both in the
14 B/C/S version and in the English translation. Thank you.
15 And if we can perhaps start from the middle of the page,
16 around -- around line 15 or perhaps even a little bit earlier than that.
17 You say: "The Muslim citizens who were brought in were put up in what is
18 today the Branko Radicevic elementary school, that is, in the sports hall
19 and throughout the school. The other members of the military police and
20 I - there were around 10 of us - stayed to secure the elementary school,
21 or rather, the prisoners until the following day."
22 It appears to -- that you're saying there, sir, in your statement
23 that you gave to the Bratunac police, that you were at the school until
24 the following day.
25 A. Yes. The military police was there until the following day; that
1 is to say, we were there all night from the school towards that street,
2 that is.
3 Q. Well, sir, with all due respect, you don't say "towards that
4 street." You say that you stayed to secure the school, "or rather, the
5 prisoners until the following day." That's different than saying that you
6 left around 6.00 or 7.00 at night towards the street, isn't it?
7 A. Yes. But we were securing that school already when the next
8 convoy came. When they came, then we were transferred to this street.
9 Q. There's no reference in the statement here, sir, that you were
10 transferred to a street, is there?
11 A. Well, all right. I mean, that -- that street is right by the
12 school, so I mean, had I known the number of the street or the name of the
13 street, I would have said we were in such-and-such a street.
14 Q. There's no -- there doesn't say anything about anybody else
15 coming there to the school, does it?
16 A. Yes, it doesn't say anything.
17 Q. Okay. Now, earlier you told us that you saw the corps police,
18 and I -- and what I'd like to clarify is whether you saw them guarding the
19 buses on the street. Can you tell us whether they were doing that or not?
20 A. No. They were not guarding them. That's what we, the military
21 police, did. They just went by, I don't know where.
22 Q. Okay. And this is on the evening of the 13th of July, right,
23 just -- just to be clear?
24 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, on the 13th.
25 Q. Were there prisoners in the hangar behind the school?
1 A. I don't know. I don't know about that.
2 Q. How much buses -- I'm sorry?
3 A. I don't know. I mean, the entire school is all linked up.
4 Q. Okay. So when you say it's "all linked up," is the school linked
5 up to the hangar behind the school? Like a warehouse?
6 A. No, it's separate.
7 Q. And were there prisoners in that location?
8 A. Yes, there were. But later on they were transferred to the upper
9 storey of the school. The school had a ground floor and an upper storey,
10 so later on they were transferred upstairs.
11 Q. So you're saying that the -- there were prisoners in the hangar
12 behind the school and they were subsequently transferred to the upper
13 floor of the Vuk Karadzic School; is that -- is that what you're saying?
14 A. Yes. I think they were transferred there because both the ground
15 floor and the upper floor were full.
16 Q. They were full of prisoners; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And who was guarding the prisoners in the hangar behind
19 the school?
20 A. I don't know. I don't know who guarded them.
21 Q. And then who moved them from the hangar to the upper floor of the
22 Vuk Karadzic School?
23 A. That police, when they came, this special police. They came with
24 them and they escorted them all the way upstairs.
25 Q. Okay. Were there prisoners in the engineering school nearby?
1 A. I don't think so. I didn't hear about it.
2 Q. That would be the other school that was next to the hangar?
3 A. No. No.
4 Q. How many buses were there outside the school containing
6 A. From --
7 Q. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Outside the Vuk Karadzic School.
8 A. There weren't any buses behind the school.
9 Q. Okay. Were there buses in front of the school?
10 A. In front of the Vuk Karadzic School, yes, in that street that I
11 told you about a short while ago.
12 Q. Okay. And there were men, Muslim men, prisoners that were on
13 those buses; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you told us that the Bratunac Brigade Military Police were
16 guarding those men on the buses?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. While you were there, sir, did you hear or see any of the men
19 being beaten, kicked, or abused in any way?
20 A. No, I didn't see anything.
21 Q. Did you hear anyone getting shot?
22 A. No, I didn't hear that. At 10.00 or 11.00 I went to get a bit of
23 a rest, and then in the morning I joined my colleagues. I didn't hear
24 anything or ...
25 Q. Did any of the wounded men, either in the school or on the buses,
1 receive medical attention?
2 A. Well, there weren't any wounded. There was no one on the buses
3 who was wounded. They asked us for water, and there was a fountain there,
4 and we poured some water for them.
5 Q. You know, there were several people who testified or said
6 that -- who survived who said that there were men that were removed from
7 the -- from the buses and trucks and who were beaten and then shot. Were
8 you aware of that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, these buses, they were lined up all the way to the soccer
12 A. We were guarding them from the school towards this street that I
13 talked about a few minutes ago. So there's the school, and then the
14 street goes straight ahead from there, and that's where the bakery is too.
15 That's where the military police was.
16 Q. Okay. And this soccer stadium, it has a big wall around it,
17 doesn't it, that's about 2 metres high; right?
18 A. Yes, it does.
19 Q. Did you see prisoners being removed from the buses and taken to
20 the stadium?
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. But you were aware that there were prisoners inside the stadium;
23 isn't that right?
24 A. Yes, I was aware.
25 Q. And, in fact, you do say in your statement to the Bratunac
1 police - we can maybe turn to page 4, if I can just have the assistance of
2 Mr. Usher, thank you - at just about the middle of the page you say:
3 "During this period, I learned that there was a group of prisoners who was
4 also present at the town stadium in Bratunac on the same day when we
5 transferred the prisoners from Potocari."
6 And you go on to say that you didn't go to the stadium and you
7 don't know what happened there. So there were prisoners in the -- in the
8 stadium. You're referring to the soccer stadium there, when you talk
9 about "the stadium" in your statement; right?
10 A. Yes. Yes, the soccer stadium. But this group that was at the
11 stadium, it was not from Potocari; it came from the direction of
12 Konjevic Polje, from down there. Because the people who were at the
13 school were from Potocari.
14 Q. So you saw the -- they were men that were bussed from the
15 direction of Konjevic Polje and brought to the soccer stadium?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And can you tell us who was escorting them to the soccer stadium?
18 A. No, I can't say that, because I didn't see who escorted them, nor
19 do I know this. All I know is that they came to the stadium from that
21 Q. Okay. Now, I just want to ask you a few questions about the
22 events when you escorted the convoy, the men from the schools to Zvornik.
23 Can you tell us who was on the buses guarding the men while they were
24 being escorted to Zvornik?
25 A. Yes. That special unit that was there in that school. I don't
1 know exactly. I went two or three hours or 2.00 or 3.00, and the convoy
2 went -- I went to report. But the special police who were there, they
3 went with them, with the buses.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. From the school.
6 Q. And what school did they arrive at in Zvornik? Can you describe
7 that school?
8 A. I can describe it, but I don't know the name of the place
9 exactly. It's a village. We passed by Zvornik. Then there was Karakaj,
10 and then there was a flyover, a big flyover. You pass that, and then just
11 50 or 100 metres down the road there's a turning to the left. It's an
12 asphalt road. And it leads straight to the school, to that village.
13 Q. How many vehicles were in the column?
14 A. I don't know exactly how many, but it was a really long column,
15 about 1 or 2 kilometres long. I know when we were starting out.
16 Q. Okay. And can you tell us who went to -- who went up to Pilica?
17 A. To Pilica? No, I don't know.
18 Q. If we can then turn to the military police log.
19 MS. ISSA: If I can ask Mr. Usher's assistance. I'll be
20 referring to 19 July.
21 For the record, Your Honour, that's Exhibit P449.
22 Q. Okay. Now, that -- just for the record, it says up there no
23 date, but that's in between -- between the 18th and the 20th. Now, we see
24 there, sir, that it refers to "Patrols went to secure the public utility
25 workers in Glogova." Were you aware that public utility workers were
1 securing -- patrols were securing the public utility workers in Glogova on
2 that day?
3 A. Yes. Yes, our military police went to secure the people who were
5 Q. They were digging mass graves in Glogova; is that right?
6 A. No. It wasn't our military police who were digging. They were
7 just providing security.
8 Q. Yes, I understand that. They were providing security for the
9 people who were digging the mass graves; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And those mass graves were of the people who were killed at
12 Kravica; isn't that right?
13 A. No, I don't know that. I don't know where they were killed, how
14 this came about. I just know that two or three policemen went to secure
15 them. That's what I heard while we were in Potocari, that some colleagues
16 went to secure those.
17 Q. What did you hear? What were they digging? The public utility
18 workers, that is.
19 A. I don't know what they were digging. Our patrol went to provide
20 security for those. How should I know?
21 Q. You weren't aware, sir, that there were mass graves that were dug
22 in Glogova that contained hundreds of bodies of Muslim men during that
24 A. I wasn't aware of it at the time, but I did hear about it later
25 on, that that happened.
1 Q. When did you hear about it?
2 A. Well, afterwards, it was autumn. I don't know what month
3 exactly, but it was three or four months later that I heard.
4 Q. What did you hear?
5 A. I heard that there was a mass grave there and that from Glogova
6 it was driven off. I don't know. That's all I heard.
7 Q. And in that autumn time period, sir, did you hear that the mass
8 grave was -- they were dug up and that the bodies were reburied, were
9 moved and reburied? Did you know about that?
10 A. Yes. People were saying that that mass grave had been removed,
11 taken away from that place in Glogova.
12 Q. And when you say "people were saying," who are you referring to?
13 A. Well, when you sit down with someone, they would say a mass grave
14 was found as Glogova and it was moved. Nobody came and said to me,
15 "Listen, this and that was found."
16 Q. Okay. But this was common knowledge, in other words? People
17 knew that this mass grave was moved, say, around October of 1995? Is that
19 A. I don't know exactly. I wasn't there. I don't know.
20 Q. Now, you also said that you apparently heard about the Kravica
21 warehouse killings later. I think you said you heard about this seven or
22 ten days later in your examination-in-chief. How did you hear about this?
23 A. Well, in the same way. It was hearsay. I didn't see it with my
24 own eyes. I just heard people saying that something had happened in
25 Kravica. I hadn't been there. I do come from Kravica, but it was only in
1 the winter that I went home.
2 Q. So this is just something that people were talking, again. Is
3 that what you're telling us?
4 A. Yes. Yes, people were talking about it. I don't know that this
5 happened in Kravica.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you.
7 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Ms. Issa.
9 Any redirect?
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I have a few questions.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
13 Q. On May 6, 2003, a cooperating witness for the Prosecution came
14 and gave a statement accusing you of being involved in the killings in
15 Kravica. Here we are now, 2004, at the end of June or near the end of
16 June. Did the Prosecution ever visit you to see whether the information
17 that Momir Nikolic had given to them was true?
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
19 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I don't see how this arises out of the
20 cross-examination. He certainly could have asked these questions in
21 chief. And if phrased differently, it's also quite leading.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I believe that redirect examination should be
24 strictly within the cross-examination.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: It's with -- I'll rephrase.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase.
3 Q. You then gave a statement on the 28th of August, 2003. And my
4 question is, going back to my previous question, in light of the fact that
5 the Prosecutor is asking you all of this detailed information, had they
6 wished to come and visit you in Bratunac, had they been interested in what
7 you had to say, were you available to provide them the same information in
8 greater detail that you provided the Bratunac police back on August 28,
9 2003? Were you available for them had they wanted to know all of these
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
12 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, this is clearly a speech. It doesn't
13 arise out of the cross-examination. It appears that Mr. Karnavas is just
14 arguing and testifying in his usual way. It's totally improper.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think your question could be
17 put in a very simple way, you know, rather than bring the Prosecution into
18 the picture, you know.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I believe, Your Honour, what I heard was not
20 "cross-examination" but was direct examination, as if they're trying to
21 investigate through the trial, and I was just wondering, since they were
22 interested in all of these details and they're trying to assume that the
23 gentleman was untruthful or less than --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to
25 object to the -- in front of the witness going on and on and making these
1 arguments. It's -- it's inappropriate. If Mr. Karnavas wants to question
2 the Prosecution about our investigation, he is -- he is welcome to. But
3 this witness is not a -- the place for a speech.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you.
5 MR. KARNAVAS:
6 Q. Did the Prosecution ever come to you to meet with you to question
7 you about their statement that would have been ready available to them all
8 the various trips they made to Bratunac?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, this is contemptuous conduct. He is
10 deliberately ignore the Court's instructions and it demeans the entire
11 process. It needs to be stopped, please.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I don't understand. We --
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. Yes, Mr. Karnavas. I think the first
14 part of your question is okay. You just put your question there.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE LIU: And I believe that we gave you on many occasions the
17 instructions. I just hope you to follow it.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: I've been following the instructions, Your Honour.
19 Q. We received this -- this statement of yours from the Bratunac
20 police on -- that you gave August 28th, 2003. Had the Prosecution wanted
21 to question you about what you told the police, would you have been
22 willing to meet with them?
23 A. Yes. I was there.
24 Q. Can you think of any reason why the Prosecution would not come
25 and meet with you, given that --
1 JUDGE LIU: Well --
2 MR. KARNAVAS: -- given that Momir Nikolic accused him or --
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, we're just -- he needs to be
4 stopped. This is contemptuous of the Court. It's deliberately flouting
5 the Court. If we can't get any organisation, this is complete anarchy.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well --
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: This question is not proper to put to this witness.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, he was accused of killing people or
10 being involved in massacres.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, that's --
12 MR. KARNAVAS: The Prosecution brought their witness, their star
13 witness, and made that accusation. One would think that the Prosecution
14 would at least meet with the gentleman. And I'm asking him if he has any
15 reasons why they didn't.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think this question should be put to the
17 Prosecution on other occasions, not to the witness. How could you ask
18 this witness to speculate?
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, perhaps he was out of -- out of town or out
20 of the country.
21 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think so.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I don't have any further
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 Mr. Stojanovic? Any redirect?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Only one question, Your Honour.
2 The witness and I were both listening to the interpretation, and I was
3 waiting for it to finish.
4 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Today during your cross-examination you were
6 asked where you arrived in Zvornik, in the Zvornik municipality, what
7 place. Can you recall in accordance with what you learned later about
8 what happened to these people that the name of the place was Orahovac?
9 A. No, I can't recall that.
10 Q. And one more question: You said that when you passed the
11 flyover, you turned off left toward the school. Now, try to recall
12 whether the school was to the left or to the right-hand side looking in
13 the direction of Tuzla. To the left or to the right of the road?
14 A. To the right.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage are there any documents to
21 Mr. Karnavas.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: We're willing to tender D205, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
24 Any objections, Ms. Issa?
25 MS. ISSA: No objection, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
2 Well, since there's no objections from the Prosecution, this
3 document is admitted into the evidence. But generally speaking, I'd be
4 very reluctant to admit this document into evidence, you know. This is
5 one of the previous statements, and it is extensively used in the
6 proceedings, everything in the transcript. But since, since there is no
7 objections and the Defence tendered this document, we admitted it into the
9 And are there any documents to tender on the part of the
11 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour. I don't have any documents to
12 tender. And I just wanted to point out that aside from not making any
13 objection to this document, we actually encourage the use of the document
14 by the Court. We think that it's -- it would be quite useful in the
15 determination of the credibility of -- of the evidence overall.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.
17 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to
18 give your evidence. We wish you a pleasant journey back home. The usher
19 will show you out of the courtroom. You may go now.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, tomorrow we will have another witness. We'll
23 start from 9.00 in the morning and we will have an extra session in the
24 afternoon, as well as on Friday. The time for the afternoon session will
25 be 3.00 to 4.30, which is one hour and a half, and we hope we could finish
1 the testimony of that witness in this week.
2 I'm a little bit worried about the performance by the parties,
3 especially concerning with tomorrow's witness. I believe that I have to
4 remind the parties for several things: I think I have to reiterate our
5 concern and warnings to the parties. This is a Tribunal but not a truth
6 and reconciliation committee. The purpose of this Tribunal is to see
7 whether the accused is innocent or not in that incident. So I hope the
8 questions put to the witness should be strictly limited within the scope
9 of the purpose of this Tribunal. I would not like to see any
10 proliferations of the questions.
11 The Srebrenica massacre is a very big issue. Many questions
12 should be answered by historians rather than by this Tribunal. We only
13 have a limited mandate for this Tribunal.
14 The second issue is about -- I hope during the direct
15 examination, as well as cross-examination and re-examination, the parties
16 should show respect to the witness and to their counterparts, their
17 colleagues in this courtroom. Frankly speaking, this Bench was not
18 satisfied with the behaviour of the parties. I hope the parties should
19 bear in mind the warnings from this Bench and should behave themselves in
20 this courtroom. This is just a warning, but if we see that things happen
21 again and again, we are going to take some measures to stop it.
22 Well, that's all I have to say at this stage. And are there any
23 matters that the parties would like to bring to the attention of this
25 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, Mr. Karnavas and I have spoken
2 briefly about the 92 bis witnesses, and there was some discussion about a
3 second review. But with -- given the Court's allowing just this one
4 witness, that I think -- in that case, I think that one witness
5 should -- should come to testify. I haven't had a chance to tell that to
6 Mr. Karnavas, but we had been talking about it. We do speak to each
7 other. We will continue to speak to each other. And I just wanted you to
8 know that, and -- but just for scheduling, there's -- that one witness - I
9 can't recall exactly his name - but there is one -- I think it's
10 another -- I think it's an MP, as a matter of fact. We would like it if
11 we could hear for a -- for cross-examination under 92 bis.
12 The other question is: I know Mr. Karnavas was going to report
13 back to us to see if he's heard any word from Serbia on the waiver issues.
14 I -- that is an important issue for the Office.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: We actually speak to each other and with each
18 First of all, with the one witness for next week: We
19 immediately, as soon as we got the Court's -- the Court's order, we
20 immediately made contact with the witness. They needed to get a -- a
21 passport, and everything is underway. I don't know the exact date. It
22 would -- my preference would be to handle him on Monday, if everything
23 could be arranged, but I don't know if that's possible before Tuesday or
24 Wednesday, but I will keep everybody updated. So that's that issue. And
25 I don't think -- frankly, I don't see the reason why we need to bring him,
1 but I'm always willing to bring witnesses here.
2 With respect to the waiver issue, with the first gentleman, as I
3 understand it, we should be getting it any moment; with the second
4 gentleman, if we -- if everybody recollects who that gentleman was, as far
5 as I understand, after leaving The Hague and being subpoenaed or
6 summoned -- I should say summoned, as he was about to check into the
7 airport, the gentleman went -- complained to the commission of the way he
8 was treated. We've contacted the commission. We've tried to inform them
9 that, you know, there are reasons why OTP wanted to question him. Perhaps
10 their tactic could have been a little different, you know, but that's the
11 way things work. But with that particular gentleman, I am -- I am very
12 doubtful that we're going to get anything, and I've even made the request
13 of a simple letter -- a simple letter, something. So I will keep working
14 on that. And I know that Ms. Tomanovic is going into the field and will
15 be stopping in Belgrade and will personally look into the matter. But
16 that's all I have. But with the first gentleman, I believe all the
17 paperwork is being done, it's on its way.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much for -- for the information
19 you provided us.
20 And I think you mentioned that you see no need to question that
21 witness -- I mean, the 92 bis witness, which means that you've waived your
22 right to direct examine this witness. Could I understand it in this way?
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Mr. President, once a witness steps into the
24 courtroom, I'm always delighted to have the opportunity to question the
25 witness. I think the -- the questioning wouldn't take more than a half an
1 hour. The reason I said what I said earlier was we've already had two
2 such MPs that were part of the -- General Mladic's entourage that went
3 from Bratunac, stopped in Sandici, Vlasenica, and so on and so forth.
4 That's why I didn't see the need to bring in a third person. And as you
5 may recall, I had him originally on my list and then took him off as a
6 result of the Trial Chamber's guidance that we received at one of the
7 hearings. That's why I was saying that I don't see what more we can get
8 out of it. It's the same story. But since he will be here, I might as
9 well avail myself to the opportunity to do a brief direct, point him in
10 the right direction. But, of course, if the Trial Chamber does not wish
11 me to do that, then I guess I'll have to do my questioning on redirect.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, that witness is a 92 bis witness. The
13 statement will eventually be admitted into evidence. So on the part of
14 this Bench, we see no necessity for the direct examination. But -- but
15 you promised us that you have a very brief direct, and that could be
16 allowed. MR. KARNAVAS: Brief. I don't know very, but brief.
17 JUDGE LIU: Brief. Yes, brief. I think you really just draw the highlights
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Right. JUDGE LIU: -- of his, you know, testimony.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE LIU: Rather than go into the specific details, you know.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: I will do that. JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
22 Well, having said that, I think the hearing for today is adjourned.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.00 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of
25 June, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.