1 Wednesday, 14 July 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear
11 me? I can't hear you. Can you hear me?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you now.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Would you please stand up and make the
14 solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
18 WITNESS: RAJKO DJOKIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, your witness, please.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
22 Examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. Can you hear me?
24 A. Yes, I can. Good afternoon to you too.
25 Q. Would you please introduce yourself, please. Give us your name
1 and surname.
2 A. My name is Rajko Djokic.
3 Q. For the record, could you spell your first and last name, please.
4 A. R-a-j-k-o, Rajko; D-o-k-i-c, diacritic.
5 Q. Once again, Mr. Rajko, would you spell your last name, please.
6 A. D-j-o-k-i-c, diacritic.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, please, Rajko, when and where you
8 were born.
9 A. I was born on the 15th of October, 1937 in the village of Paljine
10 [phoen], the Zvornik municipality.
11 Q. And where did you complete your secondary education? Or could
12 you tell us what training and education you have, please.
13 A. I completed elementary school in the neighbouring village in
14 1950, and I went to the gymnasium, the secondary school, from 1950 to
15 1954. And from 1954 until 1959 I graduated from a five-year teachers
16 training college.
17 Q. Can you tell us, please, where you graduated from your teachers
18 training college.
19 A. I graduated from the teachers training college in Tuzla, which is
20 in North-East Bosnia.
21 Q. After completing your teachers'-training college, could you tell
22 us a bit about your working life and professional life after that.
23 A. In September 1959, I went to the Kladanj municipality, where I
24 started work as a teacher.
25 Q. Just a moment, please, before you continue. Where is the
1 municipality of Kladanj located?
2 A. The Kladanj municipality is located in the southern part of
3 North-Eastern Bosnia. It is between -- the triangle between Tuzla and
5 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us more about your professional
6 working life.
7 A. As I worked in the educational field as a teacher, I -- actually,
8 I worked as a teacher from 1959 until somewhere around June 1975.
9 Q. And what did you do after that?
10 A. In 1975, the municipal assembly appointed me head of the staff of
11 Territorial Defence of the Kladanj Municipality, and I remained in that
12 post for two and a half years.
13 Q. Before taking up your post, did you do your military service in
14 the Yugoslav People's Army?
15 A. Yes, I did. I did my military service between March 1961 until
16 March 1962, and I was in the infantry school for reserve officers in
17 Bileca, which is in Herzegovina.
18 Q. When you completed your military service, did you have any rank?
19 Did you leave with any rank or position of any kind?
20 A. Yes. After six months in the army, I became a sergeant and began
21 the -- became the komandir or commander of the detachment in the army.
22 And after a brief period of time, I was promoted to the rank of
23 lieutenant, second lieutenant.
24 Q. When you were appointed Chief of Staff in the Territorial Defence
25 for Kladanj Municipality, do you remember what rank you held?
1 A. I had the rank of captain first class.
2 Q. After you spent two and a half years working in the staff of the
3 Territorial Defence, what happened next? What did you do in your
4 profession after that?
5 A. A socio-political organisation called the Socialist Alliance of
6 the Working People of Yugoslavia, I was appointed to the function of
7 president of the municipal conference of the Socialist Alliance of the
8 Working People of the Kladanj Municipality. And let me just mention that
9 before that I was in the internal affairs organ -- or rather, the
10 Secretariat for Internal Affairs of Kladanj Municipality for 16 months,
11 in fact.
12 Q. And what did you do prior to the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. When the multiparty system appeared on the territory of the
14 former Yugoslavia, I was in an organisation previously which dealt with
15 the organisation of cultural events and other events. I was the director
16 there in that institution. I spent 27 or 28 months working in that
17 institution, but I was replaced. They replaced me and sent me back to
18 the educational sphere as a teacher. And I went to teach in a place
19 20 kilometres away from Kladanj.
20 Q. Now, this replacement, when you were replaced and relieved of
21 your duties, did you think that the reason for that was that you were not
22 involved politically?
23 A. Well, I didn't join any of the political parties, the ones that
24 had emerged at that time and were formed on a nationalist basis, ethnic
25 basis at that time, so I think it was revenge on their part. And let me
1 also mention that I was the responsible person in the Municipal Assembly
2 of Kladanj where with other pacifists, like-minded pacifists, I was
3 against the enactment of a law pertaining to the formation of parties on
4 ethnic affiliation basis. So that for the most part was the reason or
5 were the reasons for which at a late stage in my life I was made to leave
6 the place where I had always resided, and I had to travel to work. I
7 didn't have any money paid to me for transportation, so I had to go from
8 my home to work and back.
9 Q. And what political party took over power at the time in Kladanj,
10 in the place that you had lived in until then?
11 A. The Party of Democratic Action, which was the number-one party in
12 terms of power. The second one was the party which incorporated the
13 former Communists. It was called the Social Democratic Party.
14 Q. At some point in time, did you ever leave Kladanj and go to
16 A. Yes, I did. You could smell war in the air, war loomed, and
17 there were conflicts, although this was not particularly evident in
18 Kladanj. But nevertheless polarisation did take place amongst the
19 population, so I had to leave Kladanj, leave everything behind. And my
20 neighbours asked me what I was waiting for, why didn't I leave. And on
21 the 13th of May, I did indeed leave Kladanj. I left my flat there and my
22 home, and I went from Kladanj to Tuzla. I was in Tuzla on the 14th of
23 May, because I thought that I would be safer there. I went to the
24 teachers training college in Tuzla, so I knew quite a number of people in
25 Tuzla. But somebody came to the flat I was residing in to tell me that I
1 had to leave and that some difficult times were ahead. He didn't say
2 what it was all about, but I left by bus from Tuzla to Bijeljina, and I
3 spent the night in Bijeljina, on the 15th -- or rather, the night between
4 the 14th and 15th, and on the 15th of May in the morning I went to Serbia
5 to the town of Loznica, and from Loznica to the spa of Koviljaca, Banja
6 Koviljaca, and at a certain time I went to Zvornik.
7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm sorry to interrupt. There's two
8 issues I would like to mention. First, I don't know which year was that.
9 The witness only mentioned the 13th of May and the 14th of May. Could
10 you ask some questions on that, about the year.
11 Secondly, well, we have spent 15 minutes about the background of
12 this witness. Let's come to the subject matter of your direct
13 examination as soon as possible. And during the background-information
14 issues, I believe that you could ask some leading questions and let us
15 get over this part as soon as possible.
16 Thank you. You may proceed.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Djokic, could you tell us for the record what year we're
19 talking about when you went from Kladanj via Tuzla and Bijeljina and
20 Loznica to Zvornik.
21 A. 1992.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, may we progress a little faster and get to the
23 war events. Did you at one point in time, upon your arrival in Zvornik,
24 join the wartime units in Zvornik and the army in fact?
25 A. Yes. I received a call-up - I think that was in June - to report
1 to the command of the Zvornik Brigade. I went there to report and I
2 spent about a month there. I didn't leave the barracks at all. I didn't
3 go anywhere. And they discharged me because they said I was old and I
4 could go home. And they said, "If we need you, we'll call you."
5 Q. Did they indeed call you back at one point?
6 A. Yes. An officer came by from the brigade command and he told me
7 to report to the brigade command, which is what I did; I reported there.
8 Q. And did you get a wartime assignment? Did you take up any
10 A. Yes. After some time had gone by, I was appointed commander of
11 the 6th Battalion, which was deployed and located on the fringes of
12 Zvornik, perhaps 1 or 2 kilometres away from Zvornik to the west. That's
13 where the battalion was deployed.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, are we still in 1992? Thank you.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Are we still in 1992, sir?
17 A. Yes, 1992, the month of July.
18 Q. And what duties did you perform afterwards?
19 A. Three months later, I was assigned to the 1st Battalion, to be
20 the deputy commander of the battalion, and I spent three months there.
21 Q. Can you tell us, please, who the commander of the Zvornik Brigade
22 was at that time.
23 A. I don't know what you mean. When?
24 Q. In 1992, when you arrived in the brigade.
25 A. I see, when I arrived in 1992. Well, the commander of the
1 brigade was -- or rather, there was a replacement of commanders. There
2 was Lieutenant Colonel Vasilic [phoen] for a short time, and then he was
3 replaced by Colonel Dragan Petkovic. He was there for a very short space
4 of time. He was seriously wounded, and the brigade was left without a
5 commander for a time, so there were some people that acted as commander
6 for short periods. But later on captain first class he was, Vinko
7 Pandurevic, came to head the brigade. If I remember correctly, if my
8 memory serves me.
9 Q. And how long were you in the battalion and did you take up other
10 assignments within the Zvornik Brigade staff?
11 A. Mostly because of my age and because I was rather exhausted, I
12 was transferred to the brigade command to deal with organisational and
13 mobilisation matters.
14 Q. And for how long were you in the staff of the 1st Zvornik
16 A. I was there until the demobilisation on the 1st of September,
18 Q. Could you tell us what the word "demobilisation" means and how it
19 affected you.
20 A. It meant the cessation of your military service.
21 Q. Did that mean that you were no longer a member of the army?
22 A. No. It meant that I could only work in civilian structures, not
23 in the army.
24 Q. Was that because of your age?
25 A. Yes. And I was also ill. Both; my age and my illness.
1 Q. Were you given any assignments and duties? Did they send you to
2 the Municipal Staff of the civilian defence in Zvornik, for example?
3 A. Well, when they wrote in my demobilisation date in my military
4 booklet, they said that I would be assigned to civilian structures, most
5 probably the civil defence or civilian protection organisation.
6 Q. And is that what they did? Did you receive any assignments or
7 duties in the civilian protection system?
8 A. No, they didn't.
9 Q. So what did you do specifically? What -- how did you gain your
11 A. I worked on the basis of a labour obligation in a state
12 organisation that was called Dekor in Zvornik, a state-owned company, in
13 fact, in Zvornik.
14 Q. Mr. Djokic, may I ask you a few questions now pertaining to
15 Dragan Jokic. Up until the war, did you know Dragan Jokic at all?
16 A. No. I'd never seen him.
17 Q. Did you meet him in the Zvornik Brigade?
18 A. Yes. I got to know him very well there.
19 Q. Can you tell us, please, while you yourself were in the Zvornik
20 Brigade, what duty did Dragan Jokic occupy?
21 A. For a time, precisely when I was at the head of the battalion, I
22 think he was the chief of the brigade command, in fact.
23 Q. What about later on? Did he change his position?
24 A. Yes. He left and joined the Engineers Corps, and afterwards he
25 was Chief of the Engineers Corps, in fact.
1 Q. If I understood you properly, at the time you worked in the
2 section for mobilisation staff and organisational affairs.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When you were doing these -- this job, did you have the
5 opportunity to meet Jokic, who was a staff officer?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is the job of chief of arm of service? What did that
8 involve in the Zvornik Brigade?
9 A. Briefly, these are expert jobs. This is work that calls for
10 detailed knowledge, something that is not necessarily known by the
11 leadership of the brigade. These people provide expert advice. They
12 carry out expert tasks.
13 Q. When you say "they provide expert advice," who are you thinking
14 of? To whom do they give this advice?
15 A. They provide expert advice to the brigade command. They give
16 proposals, advice. They advise the commander, and the brigade commander,
17 under the principle of unity of command, can accept that or not.
18 Q. In that period, in 1994, was there an engineers unit in the
19 Zvornik Brigade?
20 A. Yes, there was an engineering unit in the Zvornik Brigade.
21 Q. And what was its rank?
22 A. I wouldn't know exactly. It was either a reinforced platoon or a
23 company. That was the size.
24 Q. And this engineering unit, did it have a commander?
25 A. Yes. Each unit has its superior officer.
1 Q. Who issues orders and who leads an engineering unit?
2 A. The commander of the brigade issues orders to all the units. The
3 commander of the brigade issues orders to his subordinated officers who
4 had the subordinated units.
5 Q. Do the chiefs of the arms of service, including the engineers,
6 command the units, or is that something that is exclusively in the domain
7 of the commander?
8 A. The officers of units, commanders, the chiefs of the arms of
9 service issue orders in the spirit of the orders by the commander of the
10 brigade. What they receive as tasks they convey to their subordinates in
11 their units, including the engineering unit.
12 Q. Is the commander obliged to listen to the advice of the chief of
13 the arm of service?
14 A. No. He can accept that if he believes that it's possible to
15 implement that and that it's useful. If he does not consider it to be
16 useful, then he does not have to take the advice.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
18 MR. WAESPI: Just a clarification. It's the first time that I
19 hear this function of a chief of armed service, so if that could be
20 clarified. Perhaps it's an interpretation issue. I take it we are
21 talking about staff officers now, that's what it's all about, but I'm not
22 entirely sure. Because initially the witness said that the person was
23 the Chief of the Engineers Corps, and then Mr. Stojanovic followed up
24 with this sort of chief of armed services. So perhaps if that could be
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, we also have these kinds of questions in
2 our minds. In the past we would hear, you know, "the logistic section."
3 I wonder whether they are the same. Maybe you could ask a question to
4 this witness to help us clarify that issue.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for this intervention.
6 I think we have a problem perhaps in the transcript and with the
8 Q. I will ask you again a couple of questions on this topic,
9 Mr. Djokic. Which duty did Dragan Jokic perform at the time?
10 A. When I arrived at the brigade -- I think that when I arrived at
11 the brigade, he was the chief of the brigade command for a brief time.
12 Q. In 1994, what was Dragan Jokic's post in the staff of the Zvornik
14 A. In 1994 -- I was speaking about 1992. In 1994, he was the Chief
15 of Engineering, of Engineers, in the brigade.
16 Q. As the Chief of the Engineers, Arms, and Services, did he belong
17 to the --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat his question.
19 The witness's answer was yes, but we didn't hear the rest of the
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I wanted to ask you: When you were speaking about commanding in
23 the brigade, who did you think of specifically? Who commands the units
24 of the brigade?
25 A. The commander of the brigade commands the units.
1 Q. Does the commander of the brigade command the engineers unit
2 within the Zvornik Brigade?
3 A. Absolutely. He issues orders to that unit.
4 Q. Which jobs or tasks in the staff are carried out by the Chief of
6 A. He deals with all the engineering tasks, road construction,
7 erecting barriers, building bridges, organising the forces, and he also
8 works for the needs of the civilian sector, mining.
9 Q. I am finishing now with this topic. Is the commander of the
10 brigade obliged to accept the proposals and the advice of the Chief of
11 the Engineering Service?
12 A. If he considers them to be useful and they would yield results,
13 then he would accept them; if not, the commander of the brigade would
14 make his own decisions.
15 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move to a different set of
16 questions. What was your opinion of Dragan Jokic as a man and as an
18 A. As far as I can remember those two years that I spent in the VRS,
19 during that time he knew very well the job of engineering. In my
20 assessment, he didn't really carry that out with a lot of enthusiasm. He
21 approached those jobs as if he wanted them to be finished as soon as
22 possible, over and done with as soon as possible. He was born in that
23 area, just like I was. He had a lot of family there. So it was
24 difficult for him to discharge the duties that he was supposed to
25 discharge with his best effort.
1 Q. And what was the attitude of the command staff, Pandurevic and
2 Obrenovic, towards Jokic?
3 A. I wouldn't say that they really respected him and appreciated him
4 much, in my opinion. In many instances, they were quite arrogant towards
5 him, even though he was knowledgeable. They didn't always accept his
6 proposals, even though he was a professional in his field.
7 Q. At one point you said that you worked as a clerk in the
8 organisation and mobilisation sector.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In that period, do you know whether Dragan Jokic was promoted,
11 commended, decorated, whether he was given any awards?
12 A. No. Because this kind of information went through the personnel
13 sector, all proposals, all the documents pertaining to promotions and so
15 Q. Was he promoted?
16 A. No, not during the period that I was there, I think.
17 Q. Was he politically engaged? Was he close to the views of the
19 A. Judging by what he said and by how he behaved, I couldn't really
20 tell whether he was a member of any party or not. I think that he was
21 not a member of any party. As long as we were in the barracks, it was
22 usually known whenever anyone went to any SDS meetings, and I think that
23 he didn't go to such meetings.
24 Q. Thank you. Now we're going to go back to the period of 1995. Do
25 you remember the day when the VRS entered Srebrenica and the events
1 relating to the fall of Srebrenica? Where were you at that time?
2 A. I was in the Dekor enterprise in Zvornik at the time. That's
3 where I was working. A couple of days later I heard that units of the
4 VRS had entered Srebrenica. This was a few days later. I don't know
5 exactly when. Perhaps on the 13th or the 14th.
6 Q. How did you get the information that they had entered Srebrenica?
7 A. I think that there was talk around town how the Army of Republika
8 Srpska had completely taken over Srebrenica.
9 Q. What happened on the 14th of July?
10 A. On the 14th of July, 1995, I was the secretary of the Dekor
11 enterprise and I was called to report to the civil defence headquarters.
12 I received this summons a little before noon, to report that same day.
13 Q. Could you please tell us where the Municipal Staff of the TO for
14 Zvornik is located.
15 A. It's in the centre of Zvornik.
16 Q. Is there a special building where the civilian protection is, or
17 is that part of another building?
18 A. There are other organs and organisations in the same building
19 where the civilian protection is located. That was also where the
20 utility company was and also the national defence organ were located.
21 Q. How far is this building from the Zvornik Brigade Command?
22 A. About 1 and a half kilometres approximately, 1 and a half to
23 2 kilometres.
24 Q. When you arrived at the civilian defence headquarters, who did
25 you report to?
1 A. I know where the building is, so I reported to Dragan Mirkovic.
2 Q. Do you know what his function was at the time in the civilian
3 protection staff?
4 A. He was at the head of that organ, the civilian protection staff.
5 His name was Dragan Mirkovic.
6 Q. Were there any other people around, other members of the civilian
7 protection staff of the Zvornik municipality?
8 A. I think Arsen Krunic was there, who was the representative of the
9 municipal -- or the republican civilian defence organ.
10 Q. Perhaps this is a good point to ask you about the civilian
11 defence headquarters. What does that body do?
12 A. Civilian protection in our circumstances is an organisation whose
13 purpose is to protect the civilian population and property as well as to
14 deal with the consequences of natural disasters. That is their function,
16 Q. Who manages the civilian defence organ?
17 A. Under the municipal organisation, civilian defence is headed by
18 the president of the municipality or the president of the executive board
19 of the municipality.
20 Q. Who are the members of the civilian protection staff?
21 A. The civilian protection staff comprises volunteers, as well as
22 those who are assigned to certain administrative and technical jobs
23 professionally. Mostly these are people who can contribute to the
24 function and the tasks of civilian protection because of their
25 professional qualifications.
1 Q. Does the civilian protection and the civilian protection staff
2 have its own units?
3 A. Yes. There are specialised units and general purpose units.
4 Q. Could you please explain to us what the difference is between the
5 specialised units and the general purpose units of the civilian defence.
6 A. The specialised units are those units which carry out special,
7 expert assignments; for example, medical tasks, firefighting duties.
8 This is what I can recall at the moment. General purpose units are in
9 local communes. They are located in smaller administrative units, and
10 they deal with all tasks relating to civilian defence. They often help
11 the expert, the specialised units to implement their tasks more
12 successfully. Usually older personnel is assigned to such units, those
13 who are unfit for military service and military assignments.
14 Q. And could you please briefly tell us what the relationship
15 between the civilian protection units and the army is. Does it consist
16 of coordination, command? Could you perhaps explain to us what the
17 relationship was, in terms of the way it functioned.
18 A. Well, I think it has to do with coordination more than with
19 anything else. There's no particular kind of relationship.
20 Q. Who is in command of the civilian defence units?
21 A. Well, there are officers in the special units. There's a
22 commander there. And also in the general purpose units there is an
23 officer. I'm not quite sure what his position is, but there is an
24 officer who is in charge.
25 Q. I'm asking you this question because at one point in time you
1 said that Arsen Krunic was there representing the Republican Staff of the
2 civilian defence. Do you remember saying that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Does that mean that this line of subordination existed on a
5 republic and on a municipal level?
6 A. Yes. This is a matter of coordination between the organs of
7 civilian defence. There is such coordination, but there is also a system
8 of subordination. Whoever is at a higher level is the commander of
9 someone at a lower level.
10 Q. Does that mean that if there is someone from the republican
11 civilian defence who is there, he is in charge of the municipal civilian
12 defence staff? Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, absolutely.
14 Q. And does it mean that activities are coordinated with the army?
15 A. Coordination takes place with the army. That's correct.
16 Q. Thank you. Let's now go back to the event of the 14th of July.
17 Who contacted you? What were you told? Why were you sent there?
18 A. Well, as far as I can remember, it was Dragan Mirkovic, and he
19 said orally that we were going to go to Bratunac to assist the Municipal
20 Staff of the civilian defence there in order -- for performing communal
21 tasks in Bratunac. Not in Bratunac, in fact, in Srebrenica. This had to
22 do with cleaning up the town after the action. There was debris of
23 various kinds. So these were tasks that related to public utilities.
24 Q. Were you personally told how you would be going to Srebrenica and
25 how long you would be there?
1 A. Yes, he personally told me that we would go there in some sort of
2 a lorry. He said that a lorry would go to Srebrenica. He said we would
3 get on the lorry and go to Bratunac.
4 Q. Did he tell you how long you were supposed to carry out such
5 work, cleaning up Srebrenica?
6 A. Well, we were supposed to stay there for 14 or 15 days.
7 Q. And, Mr. Djokic, what happened after that?
8 A. After we had finished our conversation, well, at about 2.00 we
9 got into the lorry and set off for Bratunac. There was the driver,
10 Stanojevic Ostoja, Krunic Arsen, and myself, Rajko Djokic.
11 Q. Could you tell us who Ostoja Stanojevic is and whether you knew
12 him from before, as he has appeared here before this Tribunal.
13 A. Well, I knew Ostoja Stanojevic -- I have known him for about
14 30 year, since I worked in the same municipality, and I'm married to
15 someone from his village. I had a summer house in the vicinity of his
16 village. I knew him very well. He worked in the Vrnjaca [phoen] company
17 and he was a firefighter.
18 Q. On the way there, did you talk to Ostoja? Did you ask him who
19 had sent him there, what he was -- what he had been told, what he was
20 told he was going to do?
21 A. Yes. He said that the Chief of Engineers issued an order
22 according to which he should report to the municipal defence staff in
23 Zvornik and he was told that he would then be assigned to certain tasks
24 there. The Municipal Staff would then take charge of him and tell him
25 what his assignments were.
1 Q. Which route did you take to go to Bratunac?
2 A. We went there via Zvornik, Drinjaca, Polum, the left bank of
3 Drina, and then we arrived in Bratunac. I think the area is called
4 Polum. That's the area we drove through. We went by the left bank of
5 the Drina in the area of Bratunac.
6 Q. Is there another route which is faster -- or longer to Bratunac?
7 A. I think the longer way is to go from Zvornik to Drinjaca via
8 Konjevic Polje and then further on to Bratunac.
9 Q. Why did you drive along the Drina River rather than drive around?
10 A. Well, the driver said that it was quicker and that it was cooler
11 by the Drina River, because it was the month of July and it was hot, so
12 it would be better to take this route to get to Bratunac. That is an
13 area which has a lot of forests, a lot of shrubs, a lot of shrubbery by
14 the left bank of the Drina River.
15 Q. You said that in the municipality there was the chief or the
16 leader of the civilian defence, Dragan Mirkovic. Did he go with you?
17 A. No, he didn't. He arrived a little later. But shortly after us.
18 I think that he drove there in his own car.
19 Q. Mr. Djokic, can you tell us when you arrived in Bratunac on the
20 14th of July 1995. At what time?
21 A. Well, I can't remember now, but it was in the late afternoon.
22 There was still light.
23 Q. Who did you report to?
24 A. We reported to the Municipal Defence Staff, which was located in
25 a wing of the building of the municipal assembly in Bratunac.
1 Q. Who went to the civilian defence staff in Bratunac?
2 A. I and Arsen Krunic went there, and Dragan Mirkovic came later and
3 joined us.
4 Q. What happened -- what about Ostoja Stanojevic?
5 A. Well, Ostoja Stanojevic stayed in front of the building, and
6 later he parked the lorry somewhere in the vicinity. There's a church
7 somewhere there too, and that's where he parked the vehicle.
8 Q. Did Ostoja Stanojevic go to the meeting that you had with the
9 civilian defence in Bratunac?
10 A. No, he didn't.
11 Q. So who did you meet there? How many people attended that
13 A. Well, there were the three of us, and from the Bratunac civilian
14 defence -- I think that there were about two members of the Bratunac
15 civilian defence.
16 Q. Do you know who the people from Bratunac were?
17 A. Their first and last names?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. No. To be frank, I don't know who they were.
20 Q. Did you know them from before?
21 A. No. I'd never even been to Bratunac before.
22 Q. Was this the first time you went to Bratunac?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Djokic, what was discussed at the meeting in the Bratunac
25 civilian defence?
1 A. Well, we discussed how to organise cleaning up Srebrenica after
2 the combat action. We discussed the forces that would be involved.
3 There was that lorry of ours that would provide other men to carry out
4 the main tasks intended for us. So it involved the organisation and
5 performance of those tasks after the relation -- or rather, after the
6 fall of Srebrenica.
7 Q. What sort of tasks did cleaning up Srebrenica involve?
8 A. Well, this is what we took it to be: It had to do with public
9 utilities tasks. It had to do with clearing up the rubble, the debris,
10 the trees that had been toppled over. We had to clear up everything that
11 presented an obstacle to circulation in the town. We had to clear up the
12 tiles, roof tiles.
13 Q. How long did this meeting last?
14 A. Well, for about an hour and a half.
15 Q. Were you able to go to Srebrenica on that day and arrive there?
16 I'm referring to the 14th of July, 1995.
17 A. Well, I think that it was quite late in the afternoon already,
18 and I don't think we would have been able to do anything even if we had
20 Q. Did you discuss carrying out these tasks without hindrance in
22 A. Yes. They said that it still wasn't safe, that it wasn't safe to
23 go there and carry out these tasks. They said it was necessary to wait.
24 Q. Did you discuss the necessity of clearing the mines?
25 A. Yes. There were certain things that had to be done first of all.
1 They said that there was a place on the Bratunac-Srebrenica road which is
2 where there used to be a front line. They said that there were
3 minefields there and that it wasn't safe.
4 Q. So what did you do after that, after that meeting?
5 A. After that meeting I asked them where we would find
6 accommodation. I wanted to know where I would sleep, where we would be
7 provided with food. They said we should go to the Fontana Hotel and that
8 the municipality, Bratunac Municipality would take care of the expenses.
9 Q. Who went to the Fontana Hotel with you to find accommodation
11 A. Well, Ostoja Stanojevic and myself went there. It was very near.
12 Bratunac is not a large place.
13 Q. What about Arsen Krunic?
14 A. Well, Krunic and Dragan Mirkovic returned by car. They returned
15 in Dragan Mirkovic's car.
16 Q. Mr. Djokic, let me ask you whether at that meeting on the 14th in
17 the afternoon at the civilian defence in Bratunac, did they discuss the
18 mass murders that had happened a day or two earlier in Kravica?
19 A. No, this was not discussed.
20 Q. Did anyone on that occasion, on the 14th, tell you about those
21 mass executions that had been carried out in Kravica?
22 A. No, no one mentioned that.
23 Your Honours, I am being quite frank when I say that if someone
24 had told me at that time that these were the tasks I had to carry out, I
25 would have left Bratunac and I would have returned to Zvornik.
1 Q. Were there any high-ranking officers from the VRS that you saw in
2 the Fontana Hotel on that night between the 14th and 15th?
3 A. No. I didn't see any such officers. It was a small hotel.
4 There were few people there. I don't know. I didn't see any
5 high-ranking VRS officers. I didn't see any troops either. I didn't see
6 any troops whatsoever. That was separate from the municipal assembly
7 organ. It's a separate branch.
8 Q. Well, tell us what happened on the following day, on the 15th of
10 A. On the 15th of July I went to the municipality and once again
11 they confirmed that it wasn't safe to go to Srebrenica. We sat down
12 there. We spoke to each other. We talked about how everything should be
13 done. We talked about the accommodation we would have for that period of
14 time. We waited there. And at one point in time someone said that the
15 driver, Ostoja Stanojevic, should go to Kravica. There was a civilian
16 defence representative there who said, "I'll go and tell him and I will
17 go there with him."
18 Q. Perhaps this is a good time to ask you whether the same people
19 were there as on the previous day, the same people from the Bratunac
20 civilian defence organ.
21 A. No. There were just those two persons who were there and the
22 third person, who left, an ordinary civilian defence member. That's what
23 he was.
24 Q. Did you have contact of any kind on the 14th and on the morning
25 of the 15th with Dragan Jokic?
1 A. No, none whatsoever.
2 Q. Was it your duty to report to Dragan Jokic for any reason
4 A. No. We didn't have any such duty. As part to have Zvornik
5 civilian defence, we were under the civilian defence of the Bratunac
7 Q. When did Ostoja Stanojevic return from Kravica?
8 A. In the evening.
9 Q. Would you tell us on what day in the evening.
10 A. It was in the evening of the 15th of May, 1995.
11 Q. When you say "the 15th of May," are you mistaken as far as the
12 month is concerned?
13 A. I'm sorry, the 15th of July, 1995. I apologise.
14 Q. Where did you spend the afternoon of the 15th of July after that
16 A. Well, I spent a little time in the building. I spent some time
17 reading there, and I was in the hotel too.
18 Q. Can you remember at what time Ostoja Stanojevic returned?
19 A. Sometime in the evening. There was still a little light. Night
20 was beginning to fall.
21 Q. Did Ostoja tell you where he was and what he was doing?
22 A. Yes, he did. The first time I saw him, he arrived looking very
23 pale. He was bruised -- or rather, he was blue, pale and blue, and
24 upset. And I asked him, "Where were you and what were you doing?" And
25 he said that two -- I'm sorry, that two -- he had taken the dead bodies
1 of people who had been killed from Kravica to the village of Glogova. On
2 two occasions, in two goes.
3 Q. Did Ostoja tell you who ordered him to do that, who sent him to
4 do the job?
5 A. Nobody told him up there. He went with the man and the man told
6 him what to do, the one that said that he should go to Kravica. He went
7 to Kravica and saw what he was supposed to do.
8 Q. Did Ostoja tell you whether there were any other people from the
9 civilian defence or civilian protection?
10 A. Yes. There was somebody there in charge, he said, who was in
11 charge, and others who helped, helped out. There were quite a number of
13 Q. Did you ask him how far it was from Kravica to Glogova? Where
14 did he take those dead bodies to?
15 A. Well, he didn't tell me that, but he told me the place, and I
16 remembered that, Glogova, the name of the place.
17 Q. Yes. Please continue.
18 A. As I was saying, I don't know the distance. I can't guess.
19 Q. Did he mention a name at all on that occasion?
20 A. No. Or I don't remember him mentioning any names. He was very
21 upset, very agitated, and his voice shook when he spoke, trembled. He
22 was a mixture of angry and -- he was afraid and frightened and angry --
23 what I said to him?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Well, to be quite frank, I was terrified when I heard about it.
1 It was very -- a very difficult situation for me; although -- and
2 actually, it was the first time that I'd ever heard of anything like that
3 since the war broke out.
4 Q. Where did you spend that night between the 15th and 16th of July?
5 A. In the hotel. Before that, we were a little higher up in the
6 civilian protection.
7 Q. Did you talk to anyone from the Zvornik Brigade or the civilian
8 protection of Zvornik?
9 A. No, we didn't talk to anyone.
10 Q. That evening between the 15th and 16th of July, did you see any
11 soldiers at all or high-ranking officers, any officers at all in the
12 Fontana Hotel?
13 A. No, no, I did not see anyone, at least not in the part we were
14 in. There was no one there. I didn't see anyone.
15 Q. What did you do the next day in the morning; that is to say, on
16 the morning of the 16th of July?
17 A. The next day, I went to the civilian protection staff and said we
18 were leaving, that we wouldn't be carrying out any assignments or duties
19 like that. And to be quite frank and honest, they didn't react to that
20 at all, so I decided to go back. I went back to Zvornik and took the
21 Bratunac route, Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Drinjaca-Zvornik.
22 Q. Were you the person who told the representatives of the
23 civilian --
24 A. Yes. I said, "Had we known the assignments we would be given,
25 what the assignments meant, I personally and probably none of the others
1 would not have come to Bratunac at all to do the jobs, these absolutely
2 incomprehensible jobs."
3 Q. So was your conclusion that Ostoja Stanojevic didn't know about
4 those jobs?
5 A. I'm quite convinced of that. He didn't know about them at all.
6 When he came, I said he was upset; he was very pale. And I thought this
7 a little strange because normally he -- he's a young man. He's a strong
8 man. So he looked very strange on that occasion, different.
9 Q. Did you see anybody else from the Zvornik Brigade there?
10 A. No, nobody.
11 Q. You said at one point that you took a different route to Zvornik.
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. What made you take a different route and not the same route? Why
14 didn't you go along the Drina River embankment?
15 A. Well, we didn't give it much thought, to be quite honest, why we
16 took one route as opposed to the other.
17 Q. Can you tell us, please, what the time was on that morning of the
18 16th of July, 1995 when you set out towards Zvornik.
19 A. Well, it might have been 10.00 or 11.00.
20 Q. So if you took the route you did, towards Zvornik, do you have to
21 pass through the village of Kravica? Does the road take you that way?
22 A. Yes, it does.
23 Q. And did Ostoja point to the place he worked at during that time?
24 A. Yes, he did. He showed me. He pointed to the barracks, the
25 warehouses, and he pointed to -- in the direction that he drove.
1 Q. And did you go and see those spots?
2 A. No, we didn't. No, no.
3 Q. Did you stop at Kravica?
4 A. No.
5 Q. On your route, could you see whether there were still any bodies
6 lying in front of the Kravica warehouse?
7 A. No. There was just the rural population. Kravica had been
8 destroyed. There were some women standing around. We didn't see anybody
9 else or anything else.
10 Q. Did you see any vehicles? Loaders, trucks, any heavy
11 mechanisation, heavy-duty vehicles?
12 A. No. By those barracks or warehouses, where he said was the spot
13 where they had loaded up into the trucks, there was nothing there when we
14 went past.
15 Q. Perhaps I omitted to ask you this: Did Ostoja tell you that the
16 job had been completed on the 15th or that there were some corpses that
17 hadn't been buried yet?
18 A. No, he didn't mention any of that. He didn't say anything like
19 that to me at all.
20 Q. And when you passed Kravica, where else do go? What route do you
22 A. Towards Konjevic Polje.
23 Q. On the road from Bratunac via Kravica to Konjevic Polje, did you
24 notice any captured soldiers, any prisoners, any checkpoints, anything
25 like that?
1 A. No, just at the junction, at the crossroads between Zvornik and
2 Milici, the route toward Bratunac - that's the crossroads - there were
3 two policemen belonging to the civilian police force. They stopped us,
4 asked us where we had come from and where we were going, and they gave
5 permission for us to pass, to continue on our way.
6 Q. Was that checkpoint at the crossroads in Konjevic Polje itself?
7 A. I think it was thereabouts, yes.
8 Q. And was there -- did they see whether what you were saying was
9 right? Did they check you out in any way?
10 A. No. No, they didn't.
11 Q. Do you happen to remember what day that was, day of the week on
12 the 16th of July?
13 A. The 16th of July was a Sunday. It was Sunday, the 16th of July,
15 Q. And did you have any knowledge about the events in Zvornik on
16 that day?
17 A. Yes. In the civilian protection staff - I don't know how, what
18 means - but they learnt that to the west of north-west of Zvornik there
19 was heavy fighting going on in the region of Baljkovica, and there was a
20 unit there where some of Ostoja's relatives were active, so he was a bit
21 upset and afraid that something would befall them.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this would
23 be a good moment to take a break. I don't have much left.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at 4.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, please continue.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Djokic, may we resume? Have you had a rest?
5 A. Yes, thank you, I have. We can go ahead.
6 Q. We left off, if you remember, when you were telling us about the
7 16th of July and your departure to Zvornik. You said at one point that
8 you had information about the fighting going on in the Zvornik area.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell us, please, when you arrived in Zvornik,
11 Mr. Djokic.
12 A. I think it was about 11.00 or 12.00. It was a Sunday.
13 Q. Did you report to anyone in the Municipal Staff of the civilian
14 protection of Zvornik?
15 A. No, I didn't report to anyone.
16 Q. Do you know where Ostoja Stanojevic went? Did you part ways that
18 A. Well, the truck stopped by the house I lived in. I went inside,
19 had a rest, and then left -- or rather, he did. He didn't say whether he
20 would stop by the engineers unit or whether he would go home to Kozluk.
21 I don't know that.
22 Q. Could you tell us, Mr. Djokic, where is Kozluk? Where does
23 Ostoja Stanojevic live?
24 A. Kozluk is to the north of Zvornik. It is 15 kilometres away.
25 Q. Did you report to Dragan Jokic on that day and did you on that
1 day, the 16th of July, have any contacts with Dragan Jokic at all?
2 A. No, no contacts whatsoever.
3 Q. Was it your duty and obligation to report to Dragan Jokic at all?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was Dragan Jokic your superior? Was he in command and superior
6 to you in any way, Dragan Jokic?
7 A. No, he wasn't.
8 Q. May we say that you were superior to Ostoja Stanojevic because
9 you told him to leave the job?
10 A. In some respects, yes. I had a sort of senior rank. I was an
11 organiser, if I can put it that way. So in a way I was superior to him,
13 Q. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for me to ask you if you know
14 the following: You worked in the organisation, with the organisational
15 aspects, mobilisation and personnel and so on. How do you mobilise
16 equipment and technical resources? Via which organ?
17 A. That was done through the organ, as it was called at the time,
18 the organ of defence. And every municipality had this organisation or
19 organ dealing with questions of this kind, replenishment with manpower
20 and materiel. All that went through the Secretariat of Defence.
21 Q. The Secretariat of National Defence, is that a civilian
22 organisation and structure or an army structure?
23 A. It was a civilian structure pursuant to the law on national
24 defence formed by the municipal assembly.
25 Q. Can you help us out here now, please. A war unit needs buses,
1 for example. It needs trucks, let's suppose. It needs machinery which
2 the unit does not have itself but which the civilian companies have. So
3 what's the procedure that's followed to requisition or mobilise
4 machinery, equipment, vehicles, and so on?
5 A. The command sends in a request to the national defence organ;
6 that is to say, the secretariat. And then they do the job. It's a very
7 important task performed by the Secretariat of National Defence.
8 Q. When you say "the command," is there anyone else that can sign a
9 request for mobilisation except the commander?
10 A. Well, if somebody else signs it, the Secretariat of National
11 Defence would reject it, so you need the commander's signature.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
13 MR. WAESPI: Just that it's clear what command we are talking
14 about. Military, civilian, what -- what unit?
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, maybe you could ask some questions to this
16 witness to have this matter clarified for us, Mr. Stojanovic.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will do.
18 Q. Let's try and simplify matters or take the questions up again.
19 When you say "the command," "the command requests from the Ministry of
20 Defence," what do you mean? Is that the command of the military unit?
21 A. Yes, the military unit, the military.
22 Q. So who on behalf of the command of the military unit can table a
23 request for mobilisation to the Ministry of Defence?
24 A. The commander can. The commander, that is, his -- or rather, as
25 far as I am versed in the law on national defence, the secretariat will
1 not accept anybody else's signature on a request of that kind except the
2 commander's, the number-one man in the unit.
3 Q. Thank you. I am going back to the 16th of July, 1995 again. Do
4 you know if Ostoja Stanojevic had any contacts with Dragan Jokic?
5 A. I don't know if he did or did not.
6 Q. The following few days did you report to the Municipal Staff of
7 the civilian protection in Zvornik about what happened in Bratunac? Did
8 you inform them about that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. During those days, the 17th, the 18th, and the following days,
11 did you get new assignments from the civilian protection staff in
13 A. I didn't get any tasks during those few days from the civilian
15 Q. Mr. Djokic, do you know that there were mass executions on
16 several locations in the municipality of civilians and military personnel
17 during those few days?
18 A. I reported on the 17th, and what Ostoja told me I didn't tell
19 anyone else other than my close friends who shared the same views about
20 the war with me. I told them what had happened, those who shared my
21 views about this terrible war. I told them what we did up there, what
22 Ostoja did.
23 Q. Did you have any informal, unofficial information about what --
24 A. Yes. Yes. There was talk -- quietly, in whispers, cautiously --
25 about mass murders of Muslims being committed following the fall of
1 Srebrenica, that they were being taken in buses to I don't know where.
2 This was talked about in intimate circles, and it was discussed with
3 fear, in whispers. Very, very quietly.
4 Q. Did you hear this information?
5 A. Yes, I did, but after I arrived from Bratunac.
6 Q. And what is your position on all of that?
7 A. Your Honours, let me be honest. I am a teacher. I work in
8 education. I was bringing up the young generation, children up to the
9 age of 10 or 11 in the spirit of humanity, love among mankind, correct
10 behaviour, civilised behaviour in human relations. I tried to nurture
11 the love of humankind amongst my pupils, so it was very difficult for me
12 to understand and accept this. I was ashamed and a little bit afraid
13 also, because every evil act produces an evil act. That is my position
14 on this.
15 Q. Mr. Djokic, did you have any hesitation at any point to come and
16 testify before this Trial Chamber about what was happening in Kravica and
17 Zvornik during those days?
18 A. No, I never hesitated or doubted that I should come.
19 Q. During all of these years, did you ever hear from anyone that
20 Dragan Jokic in any way participated in these crimes?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Does anybody charge him or accuse him of all of this that
23 happened amongst the people in Zvornik, amongst Muslims?
24 A. When we talked about this, how it happened, nobody ever mentioned
25 Dragan Jokic. He was an officer. There is no second-ranking officer,
1 but he was a second-ranking officer, even though he had the rank of
2 captain 1st class when I left the Army of Republika Srpska. But nobody
3 ever talked about him.
4 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Djokic.
5 Could you please give us your comment now on an exhibit.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher please help us
7 to show this exhibit to the witness. This is Prosecution Exhibit P517.
8 It's a travel authorisation for a TAM 75 freight vehicle which was
9 tendered through the report of Mr. Richard Butler.
10 Could the usher please place the document on the ELMO, the second
11 page of the English version where we can see the movements of the vehicle
12 and the name of Ostoja Stanojevic, who was issued or assigned to this
14 Q. And then I would like to ask you, Mr. Djokic, to clarify certain
15 things for us.
16 Have you looked at the document?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. This is a work log for a TAM 75 vehicle, registration number
19 M5264. The driver of the vehicle is Ostoja Stanojevic. Could you please
20 look at this. According to what the work log says, on the 14th of July
21 Ostoja Stanojevic -- 14th July, 1995 -- Ostoja Stanojevic operated this
22 truck from the base to Orahovac, again back to the base Orahovac two more
23 times; then from base to Kozluk; base to Zvornik; and base to Parlog.
24 Mr. Djokic, are you sure that on the 14th of July you were
25 together in Bratunac with Mr. Ostoja Stanojevic?
1 A. I am quite sure that I was with Ostoja Stanojevic during those
2 few days from sometime in the early afternoon of the 14th, then the 15th,
3 and then returned from Bratunac to Zvornik on the 16th. I am quite sure
4 of this.
5 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at the row for the 15th of
6 July, 1995, where it states in the work log that Ostoja Stanojevic on
7 that day drove from the base, from the Engineering Company of Zvornik to
8 Kozluk, to Orahovac, and the Standard base. Are you sure that on the
9 15th of July you were in Bratunac and that on the 15th of July in the
10 afternoon Ostoja Stanojevic was in Kravica with his truck transporting
11 the bodies from the Kravica warehouse to the place of burial in Glogova?
12 A. I am quite certain that he was in Bratunac and that he worked
13 there, that he was there with a man from the civilian protection from
14 Bratunac in Kravica. I'm quite sure of that.
15 Q. Thank you. Let's look at the row for the 16th of July, 1995.
16 According to the work log, Ostoja Stanojevic operated the truck in
17 question from the base to Zvornik to Kozluk, Orahovac, and then again
18 back on the same route, Kozluk-Orahovac and the Standard base. Are you
19 sure, Mr. Djokic, that you were in Bratunac in the morning of the 16th
20 with Ostoja Stanojevic and then returned from there that afternoon?
21 A. Yes, I am quite sure of that.
22 Q. Could you please look at the right-hand side of this work log
23 where you can see the signatures of those who operated the vehicles, the
24 signatures of those who used the vehicles. You say that you know Ostoja
25 Stanojevic for 30 years.
1 A. Yes, that is correct. I've known him for 30 years.
2 Q. Is this his signature, if you can recognise it?
3 A. His initials are "OS." I don't see either "O" or "S" anywhere
4 here, the 14th, the 15th, the 16th. I cannot see anywhere the letters
5 "O" or "S." I couldn't really tell if this is his signature or not, but
6 I don't see these letters, the first letter of his name or his surname.
7 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Djokic, that this work log does not reflect
8 the actual movements of Ostoja Stanojevic on the 14th, 15th, and the 16th
9 of July?
10 A. Yes, that is correct; it does not reflect the actual movements of
11 Ostoja Stanojevic for those dates.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djokic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help us
14 to show Mr. Djokic an exhibit by the Defence which we used earlier, that
15 is, D30/3. These are excerpts from the manual on the organisation and
16 functioning of the civilian defence, published in the Official Gazette
17 number 1592 of September 29th, 1992.
18 Q. Mr. Djokic, it's quite difficult to see and it's not so easy to
19 read, but perhaps we can look at Article 21 together of this legal act
20 regulating the sanitation or the clearing of the terrain. I will try to
21 read this together with you, although it's not so easy to see, and then
22 we can comment on it together.
23 Article 21 states: "With the purpose of preventing the spread of
24 diseases, epidemics, and other consequences of war ravages, natural
25 disasters, technical, technological and ecological accidents as well as
1 other dangers in times of war and peace, Asanacija shall be organised and
2 conducted which will include the removal and burial of corpses of dead
3 animals as well as removing waste and other materials which might be
4 hazardous for the lives and health of the population."
5 And it continues: "In order to organise and implement the
6 Asanacija, public utilities, civil engineering, construction,
7 transportation, health care and veterinarian companies and enterprises
8 and organisations will be engaged, as well as scientific and expert
9 institutions and if necessary, the use of civilian protection."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you manage to follow along?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Mr. Djokic, the duties of clearing of the terrain, the duties of
14 Asanacija, is that included in the duties of the civilian protection?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In this context, the way it is prescribed by law, do you believe
17 that Asanacija is a legitimate, legal activity and something that is a
19 A. Yes, it is the duty of every person to engage -- to participate
20 in such events, and everyone is expected to participate in order to
21 alleviate the consequences of such acts or events.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djokic. We have no more questions. Thank you for
23 coming to testify. You will now be asked questions by the Defence
24 counsel for Mr. Blagojevic, Mr. Karnavas, as well as by the
25 representative of the Prosecution, Mr. Waespi.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
2 Mr. Karnavas, do you have any questions to put to this witness?
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,
4 Your Honours. Good afternoon, Mr. Djokic.
5 I have no questions for Mr. Djokic.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.
8 Any cross, Mr. Waespi?
9 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you. This is the second time for this
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage are there any documents to
14 tender, Mr. Stojanovic?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Exhibit D30/3
16 has already been admitted, as well as Prosecution Exhibit P517 through
17 the testimony of Mr. Butler.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
20 Well, I guess there's no documents to tender on the part of the
22 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to
23 give your evidence. The usher will show you out of the courtroom, and we
24 wish you a pleasant journey back home. You may leave now.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, do we have another witness
3 waiting outside?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, Your Honour, we
5 have no more witnesses for today. We were planning only this witness for
6 today. We have two witnesses for tomorrow, and we believe that they're
7 already in The Hague, so two witnesses are planned for tomorrow and one
8 witness is planned for Friday.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I wonder whether we could finish two witnesses
10 tomorrow, because we only have two days for this week, and we still have
11 three witnesses on the waiting-list.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, this is what
13 we planned for this week. The first witness for tomorrow was the
14 commander of the engineering company in the Zvornik Brigade. He is not
15 directly connected to the events in July 1995, but he will be talking
16 about the functioning, the command, and the control of the engineering
17 company, about the position of our -- of the defendant in relation to the
18 documents of the engineering company and the orders for the engineering
19 company, all in the light of Dragan Jokic being in command of the
20 engineering company. So we are hoping to finish by the first -- the end
21 of the first session, leaving the rest of the time for the
23 The second witness tomorrow will speak about an event on the 17th
24 of July, 1995, when he as a member of the engineering company, together
25 with Dragan Jokic, participated in the demining of the area and allowing
1 this group of Muslim young men to pass through, the ones who had
2 straggled -- who were stragglers from the column, and we believe that his
3 testimony will not be very long.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
6 Yes. Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: And I don't anticipate any cross-examination
8 tomorrow, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes. Thank you. But you haven't heard his
10 testimony yet. You are a little bit prejudging.
11 But anyway, are there any other matters that the parties would
12 like to raise at this stage?
13 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I don't want to prejudge the witness
15 either, Your Honour, but we may be objecting to the testimony of the
16 commander of the engineering unit at a period of time not relevant to our
17 case, nor is there an indication he's in the same position of the actual
18 commander of the engineering unit who is available as a witness. So why
19 we're seeing a witness who was not at the time or place or in the same
20 position of the actual commander, I am not sure that -- they will be able
21 to provide the appropriate foundation for such a witness, but I guess
22 we'll listen to what that foundation is.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that
25 Mr. McCloskey is very well familiar with the structure of commanding in
1 the engineering company. Our witness scheduled for tomorrow was a
2 commander of the engineers company from the beginning of the war until
3 May 1995, so that was 60 days before these serious events. He was then
4 replaced by another officer, called Dragan Jevtic. So as I said, the
5 witness scheduled for tomorrow will be talking about how an engineers
6 company is governed, about Dragan Jokic, and about all the relevant
7 documents that are used by an engineers company. What is most important
8 is that there will be a list of the materiel, the equipment that an
9 engineering company had, so that through this witness we can confirm the
10 equipment that is -- or that was used by the engineers company and what
11 equipment was mobilised in July 1995. This is the relevance of this
13 And I would like to repeat that he doesn't know anything about
14 July 1995 because he was not a participant in those events.
15 JUDGE LIU: So he's not a direct witness to this issue but kind
16 of indirect or background witness.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he is not directly
18 linked to the events of the 14th, 15th, and 16th of July, but he is
19 directly linked to the way in which the engineers company was commanded
20 and operated, so he's very qualified to talk about the structure of the
21 engineering company and the position of Dragan Jokic, who was the chief
22 of that company.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I guess we can deal with this tomorrow, but
25 how it was dealt with in July, given the -- Dragan Jevtic, who was
1 commander at the time, is not clearly going to be the way it was always
2 dealt with in May and previous. And I'm not concerned about, you know,
3 basic background, how it worked, I'm sure much of that is the same,
4 though I don't think any of that is really at issue, frankly. I think
5 we've heard a lot about that and I don't think we contest that. But my
6 concern is that we're talking someone who is not involved in the events,
7 not involved in the way the machines that were there at the time, and
8 then asking opinions. It's these -- taking these people that aren't
9 involved - like this last witness - and asking their opinions about
10 other matters that they were not involved with. And so you get the
11 record with these opinions with people that aren't really in a position
12 to provide such opinions.
13 Now, we have not objected. We know that this is not a strict
14 situation. But this is -- we're getting farther and farther afield, in
15 the viewpoint of the Prosecution, and I think stepping back into time is
16 not productive. There is a person that was the engineering commander at
17 the time.
18 And in any event, perhaps, tomorrow we'll be fine. But these are
19 some of the issues that we may be dealing with.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And we'll hear that witness
21 tomorrow, and I hope, Mr. Stojanovic, you could bear the objections from
22 the Prosecution in mind while doing your direct examination. What we
23 want to hear is the direct evidence, which means closely related to the
24 event that happened later.
25 Thank you.
1 Mr. Karnavas, you want to make some comments on that?
2 MR. KARNAVAS: I do want to make a comment.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yeah.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Because there's a proper time to object. If they
5 want -- they just can't sit there and then later on say, "Well, we object
6 to this testimony that already came in." They should object to a proper
7 time and not make speeches, as they have just done.
8 Secondly, all of these witnesses were pre-cleared in advance, so
9 if they had an objection, they should have raised it back then. But I do
10 object to Mr. McCloskey after the fact saying -- for instance, commenting
11 on the gentleman's testimony. He could have stood up and said, "This is
12 beyond the scope. He shouldn't be testifying," whatever the case may be,
13 but not afterwards. Because I -- I do agree with him in one aspect; we
14 want a clean record. But you don't object afterwards. You objected
15 properly, on time.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well --
17 MR. KARNAVAS: And I just want to voice -- this is just in
18 general. This has nothing to do with Mr. Jokic's case but just in
19 general. I just want to say this because I think we would all get along
20 better if we would just make timely objections.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. But, Mr. Karnavas, you have to trust us.
22 We are the professional Judges. We know how relevant a piece of the
23 evidence is in this case. But -- but --
24 MR. KARNAVAS: I do.
25 JUDGE LIU: But anyway, your comments are registered in the
2 Well, if there's nothing else that the parties would like to
3 bring to the attention of this Bench, so the hearing for today is
4 adjourned and we'll resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning in the same
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.38 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of
8 July, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.