1 Thursday, 9 September 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Will you please call the case, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case
7 Number IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to these
11 proceedings and to this courtroom.
12 This afternoon we'll have a sitting in accordance with our
13 decision rendered on the 30th of July, 2004, as well as the decision we
14 delivered on September 2nd, 2004.
15 The purpose of this hearing is to give a chance to Mr. Blagojevic
16 to make a statement in accordance with the Rule 84 bis.
17 Before we start, let me remind the parties about this rule.
18 "Rule 84 bis, Statement of the Accused.
19 (A). After the opening statement of the parties or, if the
20 Defence elects to defer its opening statement pursuant to Rule 84, after
21 the opening statement of the Prosecutor, if any, the accused may, if he
22 or she so wishes, and the Trial Chamber so decides, make a statement
23 under the control of the Trial Chamber. The accused shall not be
24 compelled to make a solemn declaration and shall not be examined about
25 the content of the statement.
1 (B). The Trial Chamber shall decide on the probative value, if
2 any, of the statement.
3 Here I have some questions to ask Mr. Blagojevic.
4 Mr. Blagojevic, are you going to make a statement?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the accused.
6 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone, please.
7 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your
8 permission, there are just three or four sentences I would like to say
9 quite clearly.
10 First of all, for the sake of the transcript, I would like to
11 say that I am not represented by counsel in this case. That is my
12 position. I haven't changed that position.
13 Secondly, two and a half or three months ago I addressed the
14 Trial Chamber and requested that they grant me leave to testify. This
15 matter was discussed in the courtroom. I refused to consider other
16 options at the time. I was only in favour of testifying. As I won't be
17 allowed to testify, there is nothing else that I have to say. I didn't
18 opt for any other options in the course of the debate held in this
19 courtroom. I wanted to testify in the best possible conditions, but given
20 the situation that prevails, I would not like to take such a significant
21 risk in these circumstances. As to who is representing me and how I am
22 being represented by counsel, these are matters that I would not like to
23 go in at the moment. Thank you, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, is it my understanding that you give up this
25 opportunity to make a statement? Which means that you are not going to
1 deliver any statement?
2 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's not
3 how I'd like to express myself. In relation to such important matters.
4 I wanted to testify. So this isn't the form in which I would like to
5 make a statement. To testify as to the right of an accused. As to these
6 other options that you explained at the time and I understood you very
7 well, these don't amount to testimony. These aren't options that I can
8 accept. Since I'm not allowed to testify in that case, my position is
9 very unclear. And the reasons for this has to do with certain
10 individuals who think that this is how my defence can be conducted. But
11 as you see, there is nothing I can do about this. I am quite helpless in
12 the matter.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, after consultations with my colleagues, we
16 believe that you voluntarily refused this opportunity to make a
17 statement. It is so decided. You may sit down, please.
18 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I agree
19 but please could you consider and see whether this is how it has to be.
20 I wouldn't like to object to what you have decided. I wouldn't like to
21 enter into a debate now. Thank you.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So, let's come to the next
23 issue. There's some housekeeping matters that we have to deal with,
24 taking this opportunity. That is, we still have some matters concerning
25 of the evidence, especially witness list. I would like to seek the
1 clarifications from the parties.
2 First of all, I would like to ask some questions to Mr.
3 Blagojevic's Defence, that is whether the Defence would like to clean up
4 the witness list concerning of all not admitted evidence, the Rule 92 bis
5 witnesses, that is 7, 11, 14, 20, 25, 30, 47, 56, and 63. I see there
6 are some changes on this list. Am I right, Mr. Karnavas?
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the only other number I have was number 13,
8 but I believe that on that particular -- that witness was dropped by the
9 Defence. In any event, we believe we had tendered these witnesses
10 initially. The Court had made some rulings. We're satisfied with the
11 Court's rulings. So as a result of that, we withdraw these witnesses
12 from -- you know, from the list. I don't know if I'm making -- if I'm
13 being clear enough.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And as for the 92 bis witness, I think I
15 made a mistake. It's not 20 but 23.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: 23.
17 JUDGE LIU: 23. Am I right?
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I have 7, 11, 14, 23, 25, 30, 47, 56, and 63.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Which corresponds to my list.
20 Thank you. And also, I'll confirm that you withdraw the witness number
21 13, as you said before.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: That's correct, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
24 The next question I would like to ask to Mr. Jokic's Defence. I
25 wonder if you could confirm that some of the 92 bis witnesses are
1 withdrawn, that is W21, W22, and W23.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
4 There are some issues that -- you may sit down, please, Mr.
6 There are some issues about the exhibit list which we might clean
7 up the exhibit list with the Court Deputy. Those exhibits which have
8 been double tendered or admitted should be admitted only under one number
9 unless the two versions of a document are different. So this Trial
10 Chamber would like to ask the parties after this sitting to meet with the
11 Court Deputy to clean up those exhibit lists by September 15th, at
13 And are there any documents that are still in need of translation
14 at this stage?
15 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good afternoon, Your Honours, Mr. President.
17 Ms. Stewart tells me as far as we know we have at least draft
18 translations for everything, which is fine from my perspective. I don't
19 think we need to insist holding up until the finals -- but finals are
20 coming in. We have drafts. If that's fine with us -- and I'm not sure
21 -- I don't recall which documents they are right now. Some -- I don't
22 think there's anything that we're really -- that's very contested. But
23 if there are, I'm sure we can discuss it.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 On the part of the Defence? Mr. Karnavas.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. I am being told that we
2 have official translations, at least with respect to D123/1, B, I guess,
3 and D140/1B. And there is another document, D143, and I believe that has
4 been officially translated as well. I'm also told about -- I don't know
5 if the Court wants to hear this, but about a new exhibit that was based
6 on the Trial Chamber's request, and that's D232. The request was made on
7 the transcript -- in court, and I believe it's -- we can find it on the
8 transcript page 11.226 at line 20 to 11.229 line 11, and again on 11.238
9 lines 13 to 17.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
11 Mr. Stojanovic, what's the situation on your part.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. If you
13 remember, it is still our duty to provide the Prosecution with an
14 official translation from the CLSS, the official translation of two rules
15 that we used in the course of examining a military expert. That has to
16 do with the rules of duty in the military forces and instructions on
17 competence. And these translations have been provided to us in draft
18 form and we have provided them to the Prosecution. There are some tables
19 that still need to be translated, as well as lists which we used when
20 examining the Milajlo Cvijetic. We have received some translations now.
21 We received them after the recess. So at present there is no evidence
22 that hasn't been translated.
23 We also respect our duty to do everything that is necessary with
24 regard to material evidence and we received from the registry a request
25 to finalise nine documents. We'll present this to the registry from my
1 exhibit list. We've also discussed the matter. So I don't think that
2 this Defence team now has any obligations it has failed to comply with.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
4 Since this case is approaching to its end, I hope the parties
5 will approach the Court Deputy to discuss the translation issues, if
6 there is any. We hope we could have a complete evidence record. Thank
8 And there are two decisions concerning of the admission of the
9 evidence this Trial Chamber would like to make. The first one we decided
10 to admit the document D209/1, that is the expert statement of
11 Schifanelli. The second decision is that we decided to admit the
12 document D73/3, that is the redacted Jokic expert report filed on the
13 29th of July. It is so decided.
14 At this stage are there any other matters that the parties would
15 like to bring to the attention of this Bench? Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just the simple manner -- well, it's not to
17 simple. The trial -- the closing briefs. I would just request the Court
18 if we be allowed to have up to 250 pages. The Defence each has 200. The
19 facts are, as you know, a little -- significantly different in Bratunac
20 and in Zvornik. We're trying to keep it concise, but if we had that
21 freedom to go up to 250, it would be very helpful for us. I'll try to
22 keep it as below that as much as I can. But we don't want to miss
23 anything and there's a lot of evidence in this case.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 Any comments? Mr. Karnavas.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I don't feel the need to comment at
2 this point. 50 additional pages to read is a significant amount for the
3 Defence, so -- but I understand Mr. McCloskey's position. He's dealing
4 with two accused. So I'll leave it to the Court. Far be it from me to
5 try and stifle his creativity at this stage of the proceedings.
6 I do have a couple of points I would like to make, though --
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll give the opportunity at a later stage.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We are working
11 on our submission which will certainly consist of over a hundred pages.
12 Given the weight of our case and the evidence and Mr. Blagojevic's case
13 -- we're also aware of the fact that the Prosecution has to deal with two
14 individuals, and therefore I think that it would be quite correct to
15 allow the Prosecution to have a brief consisting of 250 pages. This
16 Defence team would not object to granting them the additional 50 pages.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, both of you, for your
18 cooperation. The request from the Prosecution to have 250 pages final
19 brief is granted. But I have to remind the parties that the final brief
20 is the position of the counsels. And we have already heard the evidence
21 for over a year. So my advice is: Try your best to make it as concise
22 and clear as possible. Thank you.
23 Mr. Karnavas, yes.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: There are a couple of points. One, I wanted to
25 mention that on D -- I guess it would be Exhibit D18/1, I am told that
1 this document has been admitted into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit P483
2 already. And so I was told to mention this on the record. I believe the
3 registrar already knows that. So I just wanted to point that out.
4 And the other thing is we did a few days ago submit the
5 supporting material that go to the footnotes, to the supporting document,
6 of Mr. Schifanelli's report --
7 JUDGE LIU: You surprise me very much. It consisted that thick of
8 the documents.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I promised to be thorough and we
10 tried to make sure that the Court had all of the information it needed so
11 it could -- you know, you could dig deep into the subject matter if you
12 so chose. That's it, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE LIU: Any comments, Mr. Peter McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have a similar stack which is a little bigger
15 of Mr. Butler's footnotes. I don't want to get into the battle of the
16 footnotes. But I would just like to take a flexible position that if in
17 reading Mr. Butler's report there's a reference to a document that you
18 think is important, that that document be allowed into evidence. The
19 report is on a CD and you can can -- it's hyperlinked to the footnotes.
20 So we really -- we didn't specifically deal with the footnotes when we
21 had Mr. Butler up here. We've since, as you know, found that some of the
22 documents are rather important. I hope we've got most of the them. We
23 don't need to give you a whole stack of other ones. If you do find this
24 is something you're interested in citing one way or the other, those
25 footnotes are there and I think it would be a good idea to put them into
1 evidence if you use it, because it's certainly before you. So that's all
2 I had on that.
3 I have one other small matter that we should take about in
4 private session which has to do with the near future. But I don't think
5 I have anything else aside from that.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
7 Well, as it's understood that all of us, there's some rules for
8 the admission of evidence in these proceedings. We cannot allow any
9 documents to go through into the evidence through the backdoor. This
10 practice should not be encouraged because we already have boxes and boxes
11 of documents at our disposal. So we regard the submissions by the
12 Defence as the reference paper and it's admitted by one side. It has not
13 gone through the proceedings in this courtroom. So they don't have
14 automatically the status of evidence but just as the reference to what
15 has already been admitted into the evidence. Yes.
16 Shall we go into private session, please.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 12289 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 12290 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 12291 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me there are no other matters on
4 the agenda for this afternoon. And concerning of the rejoinder, rebuttal
5 and the rejoinder as well as the re-opening the cases, the Trial Chamber
6 is elaborating on the decision right now. We hope we could deliver it as
7 soon as possible. And after that the parties will know the position and
8 the decision of the Trial Chamber on that very issue.
9 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I take it you don't want to hear arguments on that
12 JUDGE LIU: No, we have already received the filings from both
13 parties. I guess you don't have any extra, you know, comments on it
14 because we have already received the written forms.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I'm willing to answer any questions that the
16 Trial Chamber may have on the issues, though. So if there were points
17 that I wasn't as persuasive as I should have been at the time I filed the
18 motion and if there are any issues that need qualification, I'm
20 JUDGE LIU: We appreciate your attitude very much.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that's all for this sitting. And the
23 hearing is adjourned.
24 Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.06 p.m., to be
25 reconvened on Monday, the 13th of September, 2004, at
1 9.00 a.m.