1 Friday, 25th July 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 Mr. Simon Leach (continued)
4 Examined by Mr. Hayman
5 JUDGE JORDA: We can now resume our hearing. Usher, have
6 the accused brought in, please.
7 (Accused enters court)
8 JUDGE JORDA: First, I would like to be sure that the
9 interpreters are ready. First of all, I would like to
10 ask whether everybody hears me. Mr. Blaskic, do you
11 hear me?
12 GENERAL BLASKIC: Good morning, your Honour,
13 Mr. President. I hear you well.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Do the Defence hear, my assistants, my
15 colleagues hear me? So we can begin at the point where
16 we left off, that is the examination was completed and
17 I think we now have to begin the cross-examination of
18 the Prosecutor's witness. Mr. Prosecutor, do you have a
19 comment you would like to make.
20 MR. HARMON: Yes. Mr. President, just before we begin with
21 Mr. Leach, I have copies in French of Prosecutor's
22 Exhibit 79. They were not available when they were
23 tendered. I have copies for the court. At this point
24 I would like to offer them.
25 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. Perhaps we could have
1 your witness brought in. Mr. Harmon, before the
2 cross-examination begins, it will be Mr. Nobilo or
3 Mr. Hayman? It's Mr. Hayman.
4 (Documents handed).
5 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Perhaps the usher could have the
6 witness brought in.
7 (Witness enters court).
8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Simon Leach, good morning. Do you hear
9 me now, Mr. Leach?
10 A. Yes, I do, Mr. President.
11 Q. All right. You hear me. Fine. Without any further
12 delay we can go forward. Mr. Hayman, you can begin?
13 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, your Honour and good morning, your
14 Honours, counsel and Mr. Leach.
15 A. Morning.
16 Q. You are the lead investigator in this matter for the
17 office of the Tribunal of the Prosecutor; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How long have you held that position as lead
21 investigator?
22 A. I came to the Office of the Prosecutor in October 1994,
23 actually took up the position mid-November 1994.
24 Q. So you held that position for roughly a year before the
25 indictment was sought and obtained?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you've held it at all times since?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. As the lead investigator are you familiar with the
5 status of the investigation?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you the custodian of the physical evidence in the
8 possession of the office of the Tribunal Prosecutor?
9 A. No. There's an evidence unit, which takes possession of
10 any articles that are taken by any investigator.
11 Within any investigative team there are large numbers of
12 investigative teams. So the evidence of the custodian
13 is outside the investigative unit.
14 Q. Would you and other investigators working under you
15 check evidence with the custodian in essence?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you would direct what goes into that vault or secure
18 location?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How many investigators, investigative assistants or
21 analysts do you have on your team?
22 A. Currently we have five investigators and then we have
23 support staff of a research assistant, legal analysts,
24 military analysts, possibly numbering 14 in total, 14 to
25 16. Depending on what project is being dealt with
1 depends on which the team or departments within the
2 Office of the Prosecutor one would go to for extra
3 resources or assistance.
4 Q. Does 14 or 15 include the five investigators or the
5 other categories?
6 A. No, that includes the five investigators.
7 Q. Now you have testified that the HVO or HVO forces
8 attacked various villages on 16th April and/or on
9 subsequent days in 1993; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Villages in the Lasva Valley?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you or does your office possess a single written
14 order of Tihomir Blaskic directing any attack on a
15 civilian target?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What order is that?
18 A. I don't have it in my possession with me at the moment.
19 MR. HARMON: I am going to object, your Honour. I think
20 this is outside the scope of the examination. Mr. Leach
21 testified about the introduction of physical exhibits.
22 He did not testify beyond that and he did not testify
23 about other exhibits that were not tendered before this
24 court. This is a wide-ranging cross-examination and
25 I would object to it.
1 MR. HAYMAN: May I be heard?
2 JUDGE JORDA: In general I would prefer that objections be
3 made either by the Defence or the Prosecution in respect
4 of very, very significant objectives. I said this to
5 Mr. Hayman the other day. The cross-examination has
6 only begun and this Trial Chamber has judges, no jury.
7 They know how to distinguish what is part of the
8 cross-examination and what is not part of that
9 cross-examination. Therefore, Mr. Hayman, you can go
10 on. Proceed, please, but try to remain within the
11 context of what Mr. Simon Leach has said.
12 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour. What written order of
13 Tihomir Blaskic do you or your office possess that
14 directs an attack on a civilian target?
15 A. I don't have the order in my possession with me in front
16 of me. Whether it would be classed as a document which
17 directs an attack on a civilian target, I would have to
18 read the text. It may direct an attack on or an
19 offensive operation. Again the phrase "attack" may not
20 be contained in the documents, but it may describe an
21 offensive operation against a location rather than a
22 direct: "Go and attack".
23 Q. Does this order relate to 16th April 1993?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So there's no such order in your or your office's
1 possession with respect to the events surrounding 16th
2 April 1993; is that correct?
3 A. As regards to an attack, I'm not aware of an order of
4 that kind, no.
5 Q. But you do possess written orders from my client, do you
6 not, directing that HVO soldiers not harm civilians and
7 not harm civilian property, do you not?
8 A. Yes, we do.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. I believe you have copies of those.
11 Q. Could Exhibit 29D be placed before the witness?
12 (Handed.) This is a small map of the Kiseljak area; is
13 that right?
14 A. That's right, sir, yes.
15 Q. You have identified various villages or hamlets within
16 this area; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I would like to -- one moment. (Pause.) Can you
19 estimate for us how far Gomionica is from Behrici? Do
20 you see those two locations on the map? Perhaps you
21 might put it on the ELMO, if that's convenient, and we
22 can all follow along. Currently you are pointing to
23 Behrici; is that right, or you are pointing in between
24 the two villages I mentioned?
25 A. In between the two.
1 Q. Would you estimate this is under 1,000 metres between
2 the two?
3 A. Around 1,000 metres, yes.
4 Q. Where does one village or hamlet end and the next begin?
5 A. In relation to both this location and other locations
6 I have testified about it is sometimes quite difficult
7 to say one village starts here, ends here, there's a
8 break in the road and then the next village starts.
9 The people who lived in the villages are the people who
10 can be very specific about where a village starts and
11 where a village ends and where the next village closest
12 to it would start.
13 Q. In the nature of, well, if you are on the other side of
14 the creek you are in Gomionica but this side of the
15 creek is Behrici, this kind of thing?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. There is no sign as you leave the village of Behrici,
18 leaving the village of Behrici, is there?
19 A. Absolutely not.
20 Q. Because even on foot in a few minutes you are in the
21 next hamlet?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Does that same observation apply, for example, with
24 respect to Svinjarevo and Behrici and they are
25 extraordinary close and approximate in territory?
1 A. In relation to Gomionica and Behrici, yes, because
2 I know from being there as you walk between middle
3 Gomionica and upper Gomionica, you have to take a track
4 to the left to walk into Behrici. From recollection
5 Svinjarevo would be in line of sight from Behrici but I
6 don't think there is a defined track or pathway or road
7 to walk from, for example, Behrici to Svinjarevo.
8 Certainly I saw no indication of a road we could use.
9 You would have to drive back down through Gomionica to
10 the main highway, travel to Busovaca for 1.5 or 2 kms
11 and then travel back to Svinjarevo.
12 Q. You would go back to the road for 1,000 metres or two
13 and then you would be in the Svinjarevo area?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If there was gunfire in any of these villages stretching
16 from Visnjica to Svinjarevo, would you likely hear that
17 gunfire in other villages?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now you described the distance from the Kiseljak
20 Barracks to various villages in the Kiseljak
21 Municipality; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it your testimony that Tihomir Blaskic maintained a
24 headquarters with a headquarters or command staff in the
25 Kiseljak Barracks at any time material to this
1 indictment?
2 A. My understanding is this, your Honours, that
3 approximately May 1992 General Blaskic had recently
4 arrived in Central Bosnia via Vienna and Tuzla and had
5 responsibility for the HVO in Kiseljak. Subsequent to
6 that he was given the post of commander of the Central
7 Bosnia Operative Zone and established the main
8 headquarters at the Hotel Vitez in Vitez and he had a
9 subordinate brigade commander and brigade battalions at
10 the HVO headquarters at the barracks in Kiseljak.
11 I cannot say, I do not know whether or not he had a
12 command staff at Kiseljak. It is my understanding that
13 he most certainly had a command staff at Vitez.
14 Q. So based on what you have just said your understanding
15 then, to summarise, is at some point close in time to
16 May 1992 if Tihomir Blaskic ever had a headquarters in
17 Kiseljak Barracks, that headquarters moved to the Hotel
18 Vitez; correct? It moved to the Vitez area. Let me
19 state it that way.
20 A. It's sometimes difficult for me to qualify and say that
21 he didn't have command staff at Kiseljak. I'm aware
22 that when he was involved in negotiations which were
23 brokered, I think, by UNPROFOR and possibly the European
24 Community monitoring mission, that those negotiations
25 could and did take place in Kiseljak, and therefore
1 material I have seen would indicate that the General may
2 be perceived to have had a headquarters at Kiseljak as
3 well, but the General would know himself better than I .
4 Q. Were those meetings and discussions in 1992 or 1993, if
5 you know?
6 A. There were certainly some in 1993, possibly 1992. I'm
7 not sure.
8 Q. So I take it you're not able to give any testimony on
9 whether or not Tihomir Blaskic maintained a headquarters
10 in Kiseljak Barracks at any time approximate to the
11 dates of the so-called attacks you have described on the
12 villages in the municipality of Kiseljak as set forth in
13 Exhibit 29D; is that correct?
14 A. What I would say is that he had a subordinate command at
15 that location that was subordinate to him.
16 Q. Is that different from having a command headquarters?
17 A. I do not know.
18 Q. Well, you have described what he had or what existed at
19 Kiseljak Barracks as a headquarters of Tihomir
20 Blaskic. Is it now your testimony that you don't know
21 that?
22 A. What I'm saying is that my understanding is that he had
23 a headquarters at Kiseljak Barracks. He was there
24 regularly. I think possibly because at the initial
25 stages of UNPROFOR's arrival in Bosnia as a whole --
1 UNPROFOR initially -- the main Bosnia-Herzegovina
2 command of UNPROFOR was stationed at Kiseljak.
3 Q. When you use headquarters in that sense, what do you
4 mean by headquarters? Do you mean a conference room
5 where he was sometimes seen or do you mean something
6 more than that?
7 A. I meant something more than that.
8 Q. Was there a command or headquarters staff at Kiseljak
9 barracks?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Now, you were asked by Mr. Harmon whether after 16th
12 April 1993 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina cut the
13 main road between Kacuni and Bilalovic. Do you recall
14 that question?
15 A. Yes, I do, sir.
16 Q. Your answer was "yes"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The main road you referred to is also the main road or
19 artery between Kiseljak and Busovaca; correct?
20 A. That's correct, yes.
21 Q. And similarly to get from Kiseljak to Vitez, you would
22 have to take that same road through Busovaca and on up
23 to Vitez; correct?
24 A. I'm not an expert of every road in Central Bosnia, your
25 Honours. It is my understanding that both parties,
1 both the Armija of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO, would
2 have the ability to travel from point A, for example, in
3 Busovaca to point B in Kiseljak but using mountain
4 routes, mountain paths, if they had a suitable 4-wheel
5 drive vehicle, etc., but the main highway would be the
6 one been Kiseljak and Busovaca, which could be cut off
7 to normal routes by certain factions at certain
8 locations.
9 Q. Could Exhibit 29C, your Honour, be placed before the
10 witness?
11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes.
12 Q. And perhaps D11 could be gathered so as to conserve time
13 as the next exhibit to be shown to the witness.
14 (Handed.) Could you put 29C on the ELMO and show us the
15 road of which we are discussing?
16 A. The road from?
17 Q. The road from Vitez to Busovaca, then on to Kiseljak,
18 although Kiseljak does not appear on this map.
19 A. (Indicating).
20 Q. Now you are indicating the town of Vitez?
21 A. That's correct, yes.
22 Q. Down towards Busovaca or Kiseljak, you would go in an
23 easterly, south easterly direction. Would you trace
24 that? Thank you. Then you move to the map to the
25 left. You reach the Busovaca T-junction here?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If you turn right, if you proceed down on the road, that
3 takes us to Busovaca; correct?
4 A. Yes. (Indicating).
5 Q. Could you continue on down the road and tell us when you
6 come to Kacuni,, please, if it's on this map.
7 A. (Indicating).
8 Q. You are now indicating the town of Kacuni?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If you could continue on down to the end of the map
11 showing this map going off the map, and then replace
12 this map, if you would, with Exhibit 29D, if you still
13 have it. Perhaps you could start with Kacuni, pick up
14 the same road, in other words, with Kacuni on 29D. You
15 are pointing to Kacuni now?
16 A. Yes. (Indicating).
17 Q. Continue down the route to the south, south-east, and
18 let us know when you come to Bilalovic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How are you indicating Bilalovic on this map?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If you continue down this road it takes you to Kiseljak;
23 correct?
24 A. That's correct, yes.
25 Q. Are you aware that this road was cut at Kacuni in the
1 latter half of January 1997 by forces of the army of
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
3 A. The latter half of January, beginning of February, yes.
4 Q. Approximately on or about January 23rd, 1993, wasn't
5 this road cut in the area of Kacuni?
6 A. That may be the exact date, but I would have to check
7 records to confirm it.
8 Q. That road was never reopened, that is it was never taken
9 back by the HVO in the course of the entire war, is that
10 correct?
11 A. I'm not aware that that's the case, but you may be
12 correct.
13 Q. Are you aware that from January 23rd, 1993, the only way
14 that Tihomir Blaskic could pass on this road was in a UN
15 vehicle, being escorted for purposes of cease-fires or
16 other means, which may have been occurring in Kiseljak?
17 A. I'm aware that General Blaskic was often, as were
18 members of the Bosnian army, in armoured personnel
19 carriers, in order to get either side through certain
20 checkpoints or confrontation lines as they developed.
21 However, as I said earlier, that does not necessarily
22 mean that one could not get from, for example, Vitez to
23 Busovaca without avoiding a HB checkpoint and likewise
24 one could possibly, using mountain roads, travel from
25 Busovaca to Kiseljak. I am not an expert, but that is
1 what I'm led to believe was the case.
2 Q. Do you have any information that you can provide this
3 Tribunal that after January 23rd, 1993 Tihomir Blaskic
4 ever travelled on the road we have been discussing
5 through the Kacuni/Bilalovic portion, in any manner
6 other than a UN vehicle? Do you have any other
7 information to suggest to the contrary that you can
8 provide this court?
9 A. Not with me. I would have to check records but that
10 may be -- you may be accurate that he did not without an
11 UNPROFOR escort.
12 Q. If you do, you don't have it in your mind; is that
13 right?
14 A. No, that's right.
15 Q. Do you have any information you can provide this
16 Tribunal that would confirm that Tihomir Blaskic ever
17 trekked across the mountains after January 23rd, 1993 to
18 try to get to Kiseljak from Vitez?
19 A. No.
20 Q. May Exhibit D/11 be placed before the witness and if he
21 could place it on the ELMO, please. I think you may
22 have it. It is the excerpts from Lord Owen's book,
23 "Balkan Odyssey". If you would open the package, turn
24 to the last page and there is a map on the last page.
25 If you would place that on the ELMO, that would be very
1 helpful?
2 A. Page 363.
3 Q. Correct. If the camera could zoom in on the Vitez and
4 Kiseljak pockets, please. A little bit more, please.
5 That's plenty. If you could move the map down a
6 little, Mr. Leach. Yes, perfect. Mr. Leach, does this
7 map illustrate the fact that this road, at least the
8 portion between Kacuni and Bilalovic, was cut and was
9 not held by the HVO? Do you see a gap between two
10 shaded portions, one around Vitez and the other around
11 Kiseljak?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And is this consistent with your understanding that
14 there was, if you will, a Vitez enclave, a surrounded
15 enclave, held by the HVO and similarly another
16 surrounded enclave held by the HVO to the south-east in
17 and around Kiseljak?
18 A. That is what I would describe as enclaves. Whether
19 this document was designed to show how people could
20 travel on the roads, I'm not so sure that's an accurate
21 portrayal how one could travel from A to B. Certainly
22 I know that, for example, the city of Prozor, which is
23 not on this map, to the south-west of Vitez and
24 Kiseljak, that the HVO were building a road to connect
25 Prozor over the mountains to Kiseljak. So, therefore,
1 there were attempts made as early as late 1992 to build
2 roads to assist with communications.
3 Q. Did any such road ever reach the Vitez pocket during a
4 war, to your knowledge?
5 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
6 Q. Thank you. Let me change the subject now and ask:
7 you've discussed the existence and organisation of the
8 Central Bosnia operative zone on the part of the HVO.
9 I would like to ask you: do you know what or which
10 corps or corpus of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
11 operated on the same territory that you have described
12 as the middle Bosnia or Central Bosnia operative zone of
13 the HVO?
14 A. That was III Corps of the army of BiH.
15 Q. Were there any other corps that you know of the army of
16 BiH that also operated within this same geographic area?
17 A. Yes. I think it is the I Corps, which was responsible
18 for the Sarajevo area.
19 Q. Or perhaps Disoko?
20 A. Possibly, yes.
21 Q. Do you know whether there was a VII Corps in Travnik?
22 A. I'm only aware as far as corps, that there were only
23 four in the Bosnian army. I Corps, Sarajevo. III
24 Corps, base Zenica. II Corps, Tuzla and IV Corps in
25 Mostar.
1 Q. You just said II Corps, Tuzla; III Corps Zenica; I Corps
2 Sarajevo, possibly Disoko. So you are not aware of the
3 VII Corps based in the Travnik area?
4 A. No. As I say, as far as I know the Bosnian army only
5 had four corps, not seven.
6 Q. You are not familiar with the VI Corps based in the
7 Fojnica area?
8 A. VI Corps?
9 Q. The VI Corps?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now you have testified that certain "attacks" occurred
12 on certain dates. You have also shown us a number of
13 photographs, many of which are disturbing, including
14 photographs of damage or destroyed places of worship,
15 particularly mosques or exclusively mosques. Is it
16 your testimony that with respect to each location or
17 village where you have show us a picture of a damaged or
18 destroyed mosque, that that damage or destruction
19 occurred on the date to which you have ascribed an HVO
20 attack occurred?
21 A. No, that's not my assertion. The damage to those
22 mosques, apart from, I think, in Ahmici, where I think I
23 am fairly accurate to say was on or about between 16th
24 or 19th April, the damage to the other mosques occurred
25 at dates which I don't know the timing of.
1 Q. When was the mosque in Busovaca damaged or destroyed; do
2 you know?
3 A. I do not know the dates.
4 Q. Would you be surprised to learn that that mosque was
5 damaged or destroyed in May of 1994, after the cease-fire
6 between the HVO and the ABiH, after the Washington
7 agreement and after the last date alleged in this
8 indictment?
9 A. I would, yes.
10 Q. That would surprise you? Would you like to, and I'm
11 sorry I don't have copies of this, your Honour, look at
12 a Reuters news story, in which it is written -- this is
13 dated June 20th, 1994. In fairness, your Honour, may
14 I have a moment? I would like to show it to counsel,
15 because I don't have copies of this. I am surprised by
16 this testimony and I think in fairness I should show it
17 to counsel before I ask the witness whether he's
18 familiar with this information.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I would like this document to be given
20 to the Prosecutor as well. Mr. Harmon, you don't have
21 it? Mr. Leach, you don't have it?
22 A. No.
23 MR. HARMON: No, your Honour.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Would you like to take a few moments to
25 examine it?
1 MR. HARMON: Yes, your Honour.
2 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, would you please give the
3 Registrar the document, who will make a copy of it and
4 then give it to the Prosecutor? Mr. Harmon, as soon as
5 you have looked at it, as soon as you have it in your
6 hands --
7 MR. HAYMAN: We can come back to this, your Honour. We can
8 have copies made. I can continue with some other
9 questions and we can come back to it. That will be
10 fine.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Proceed, please.
12 MR. HAYMAN: You have described a number of events which you
13 have stated occurred on April 16th or other dates in
14 April or following months. Is it a fact that you
15 yourself have no personal knowledge of any of these
16 events?
17 A. That's right. I was not there.
18 Q. In fact in April, for example, of 1993, where were you?
19 A. In the United Kingdom.
20 Q. You were a police investigator, detective in the UK?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So evidence that you testified about concerning events
23 happening on particular days in 1993 and so forth is
24 based on hearsay information that you have obtained from
25 witness interviews or other documents, or from talking
1 to other people; is that right?
2 A. That's right, your Honours, yes.
3 Q. So you have no personal knowledge of any attack by an
4 HVO soldier or force; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. No personal knowledge of any detention of civilians?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. No personal knowledge of the particular dates on which
9 any structure, whether mosque, residence or other, was
10 damaged or destroyed?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. No personal knowledge as to who the owners of any
13 destroyed structures or residences were?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And perhaps apart from aggregate census data, no
16 personal knowledge of the ethnicity or nationality of
17 any such owners; correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. You've made certain -- offered certain testimony
20 concerning the ease of travel, particularly from the
21 Hotel Vitez to surrounding areas as well as from the
22 Kiseljak Barracks to surrounding areas. Would you
23 agree that the ease of travel depends on the
24 circumstances at the time, such as whether there exists
25 a condition of peace time, or whether there exists a
1 condition of wartime or a state of war?
2 A. Yes, I would. I would agree.
3 Q. That is because in a state of war a vehicle -- it may
4 not be safe to use a vehicle on a particular road or
5 passageway; is that correct?
6 A. That's correct, yes.
7 Q. That could be due to facts, for example, the fact that a
8 section of the road such as the road between Bilalovic
9 and Kacuni was in the hands of a warring party?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Or it could be due to the fact that a section of road
12 was exposed to sniper fire from the opposing party;
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Or it could be due to the fact that a road or perhaps a
16 mountainside or hillside may have been mined, thereby
17 rendering it unsafe for travel; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you have any knowledge that on a particular date any
20 of the roads or travels that you have described as being
21 convenient and short were, in fact, possible during the
22 war that was going on in connection with this case? Do
23 you have any personal knowledge that on a particular
24 date any of those roads or routes were, in fact, safe
25 and passable?
1 A. Personal knowledge, no.
2 Q. Do you know whether the HVO had any tanks or armoured
3 vehicles at their disposal?
4 A. I believe they may have, but I couldn't categorically
5 state any factual figures on that at all.
6 Q. Have you seen any pictures of General Blaskic arriving
7 at a meeting and jumping out of his own armoured
8 personnel carrier?
9 A. No.
10 Q. If there was a UN-brokered meeting, he would arrive in a
11 UN vehicle or UN armoured personnel carrier. Is that
12 your general understanding?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I think the document, your Honour, has been copied and
15 I would ask that it be marked as the next Defence
16 exhibit in order and provided to the witness. I would
17 direct counsel to the second page, second sentence of
18 the first full paragraph, which is the sentence I intend
19 to draw the witness' attention to, the sentence
20 beginning:
21 "Last month ...".
22 Do you have this article.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps the Tribunal could have a copy of
24 this as well. (Handed.)
25 MR. HAYMAN: Why don't I read, your Honour, the introductory
1 language, and that way we can obtain a translation?
2 This exhibit, Mr. Leach, is titled "Croatia Waging War on
3 History, June 20th, 1994.
4 Text.
5 “In the former Yugoslavia”, writes Robert Fisk,
6 “whole cultures are being obliterated".
7 This is a Reuters' story.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Leach, would you please put the document
9 on the ELMO, so that the interpreters can have their
10 work made easier. Thank you.
11 MR. HAYMAN: The specific by line -- if you would show that
12 -- is the ELMO on, may I enquire? Mr. Leach, could you
13 pull down the article so we can see the top and the
14 by-line? You see the by-line is June 20th, 1994.
15 Would you agree?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, turning the page, if you turn that page over to the
18 back page of that same page, assuming your copy is a
19 two-sided copy, and place the document again on the
20 ELMO, so that the second -- the first full paragraph, at
21 least the top portion, is visible. Let me read the
22 first two sentences of that paragraph:
23 "Nor has the destruction ended. In April Croat
24 gunmen destroyed the mosque at Livno. Last month
25 Croatian Bosnian forces demolished the minaret of the
1 Busovaca mosque".
2 Then it continues as to the destruction of a
3 Catholic church. Would you agree that the reference
4 "last month" to the destruction of the Busovaca mosque
5 is a reference to the month prior to June 1994, namely
6 May 1994?
7 A. It appears to be so, yes, sir.
8 Q. Is that surprising to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Because, if true, then that mosque was destroyed after
11 the period charged in this indictment; correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. If Exhibit 53, your Honour, could be placed -- I believe
14 it needs to be placed on the easel. This should be an
15 aerial photograph.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Before we talk about 53, does this have to be
17 put into the record as well? What will the number be?
18 Mr. Hayman or Mr. Dubuisson, I'm talking about the
19 Reuters' despatch.
20 THE REGISTRAR: It is D/12.
21 JUDGE JORDA: First I wanted to know whether Mr. Hayman
22 wanted it to be put in the record. Mr. Hayman?
23 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, first of all, the second page,
24 I think, is extraneous and can be removed. I think the
25 article appears in toto in the first page. So the
1 second page is not pertinent. It can be marked for
2 identification. I don't feel strongly that it be
3 admitted but I don't oppose its admission, if the other
4 side would like it admitted, your Honour, but I would
5 like it marked and made a part of the record.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?
7 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, your Honour. I didn't hear. I
8 was in conversation with my colleague.
9 JUDGE JORDA: I had a very simple question. I was asking
10 for your approval for this to be put in as an exhibit
11 under number D/12, 13? 12. The two-sided page, not
12 the second page but the two-sided copy of the Reuters'
13 despatch.
14 MR. HARMON: Okay.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. It will be D/12. Proceed
16 please, Mr. Hayman.
17 MR. HAYMAN: The next exhibit I would like to work with is
18 53, which is an aerial photograph. Perhaps that could
19 be retrieved. Could you point out for us on this map,
20 for example, the markings for Ahmici, Santici.
21 I believe is Nadioci on this map? It is difficult for
22 me to see from this distance?
23 A. Your Honours, on this map Ahmici is here.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. I have to consult my
1 colleagues. (Pause.) Thank you. Please proceed.
2 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour. Mr. Leach, could you point
3 out the village of Nadioci? Is a particular location
4 marked as Nadioci on this map?
5 A. The weekend houses are marked.
6 Q. The village proper lies on the other side of the road to
7 the north?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Then where have you marked the village of Ahmici?
10 A. (Indicating).
11 Q. Again could you show us where the village of Nadioci
12 ends and where the village of Ahmici begins?
13 A. Again without being a local I would suggest that Ahmici
14 ends below the pointer. Nadioci would begin above the
15 pointer.
16 Q. The fact is the structures run together and they are
17 quite approximate; correct?
18 A. If you are indicating these houses here as being part of
19 Ahmici or Nadioci, I just couldn't say.
20 Q. Well, again, as in the case of the villages we were
21 discussing to the north, north west of Kiseljak, there
22 are no signs indicating where one village ends and the
23 next begins; correct?
24 A. No, there are not, your Honours.
25 Q. The houses are pretty much sprinkled across the
1 hillside?
2 A. There are houses or farms sprinkled on the hillside, but
3 I think, as in Gomionica and Behrici, you can
4 distinguish one village from another. I think it would
5 be more difficult to distinguish, for example, on this
6 photograph where Ahmici ends and Santici begins, but for
7 Ahmici and Nadioci, there is a distinct break in the
8 ground that would assist in identifying one village from
9 the other.
10 Q. There is a ravine or some kind of depression?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That's not true or is it true with respect to Ahmici and
13 I believe it's Pirici?
14 A. I mean Pirici is a distinct smaller hamlet which is on
15 the hill above Santici and Ahmici.
16 Q. Is that less than 1,000 metres from either one of those
17 villages?
18 A. Around 1,000 metres would be accurate, your Honour.
19 Q. Are you familiar with the method of organising
20 governmental units for purpose of self-governance in
21 Bosnia under the municipal level or opstina level, the
22 next level down of government organisation?
23 A. Limited knowledge. I'm not an expert at all.
24 Q. If you know, would you agree that these four villages in
25 this area, Nadioci, Ahmici, Pirici and Santici were all
1 part of one local community --
2 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, the witness said he was not an
3 expert. I don't see the point of this question if you
4 knew that.
5 MR. HAYMAN: Not being an expert -- with all due respect,
6 your Honour, not being an expert doesn't mean he does
7 not have any knowledge of it. I do not know if he has
8 any knowledge of it. If he has none, he can certainly
9 say: "I do not know".
10 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Answer, Mr. Leach.
11 MR. HAYMAN: Do you know whether these four villages were
12 part of a single community for government or
13 self-government purposes?
14 A. I'm not sure that they were a single community as
15 regards if one was -- if one was sat here as a Bosnian
16 Muslim. As regards a Bosnian Croat, I seem to
17 understand that the local HVO forces were under one
18 command, which would include Nadioci, Pirici, Santici
19 and Ahmici. How that mirrored for the Bosnian forces,
20 I think that was given, because, for example, there were
21 limited Muslims living in Nadioci. There was certainly
22 a local group of the Muslims for the community of Ahmici
23 that would have discussed civil defence, whereas for the
24 HVO, from my understanding, it covered a larger area,
25 which would be Nadioci down through Ahmici, Pirici and
1 Santici.
2 Q. One moment, your Honour. (Pause.)
3 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. Leach, I'm referring to a system of
4 self-governance as it existed before the war. Do you
5 have any knowledge of that scheme with respect to these
6 four villages?
7 A. No, your Honours, I don't.
8 Q. Thank you. May I approach, your Honour, and point out
9 some terrain on the map for my next question? First
10 I would like to point out the main road from Vitez
11 towards the Busovaca T-junction and ask you if, in fact,
12 I'm accurately identifying the main road (indicating)?
13 A. That's accurate, your Honours, yes.
14 Q. Would you agree that the road lies in a valley
15 (indicating)?
16 A. Yes, it does.
17 Q. And to the south of the valley there are steep hills
18 raising?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And similarly there are hills to the north of the
21 valley?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Now the villages we have been discussing -- I'm sorry.
24 Let's take a moment and ... thank you, Mr. Dubuisson.
25 The villages we have been discussing, they generally
1 line the hillsides to the north of the valley which
2 contains both the road and the river. Would you agree
3 the hillside which I'm indicating now to the north?
4 A. For example, the village of Santici and a sizeable
5 portion of Ahmici lie next to the road. As you drive
6 along the road, if a house was within 15, 20 metres of
7 that road, with a garden in front of it, that would be
8 part of the village. So a portion of the village, for
9 example, Santici, the majority of that village is on
10 flat ground. For example, Ahmici, because it's a
11 village with perhaps three distinct area, some of it is
12 on flat ground and then the upper part of the village is
13 on high ground. The village of Pirici is solely on
14 high ground.
15 Q. So, to clarify then, with respect to Santici, Ahmici and
16 Nadioci, some of the houses or structures in those
17 villages run all the way down to the road; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now do you know that, in fact, this road was the subject
20 of extreme and bitter fighting between Croat and Muslim
21 forces in this area in, for example, late 1993 and early
22 1994?
23 A. That's correct, your Honours, it was.
24 Q. In fact, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at one point cut
25 this road as well, creating two enclaves within the
1 Vitez enclave; correct?
2 A. I wasn't aware of that.
3 Q. You are not aware of that fact?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know whether of the destroyed houses near the
6 road, again do you know when that destruction occurred?
7 A. I think some other witnesses will be able to tell which
8 buildings were destroyed at what time. I don't --
9 Q. But you cannot?
10 A. I don't have personal knowledge of that, no.
11 Q. Now, in taking photos of the destroyed homes and
12 structures that you have helped document for us all, did
13 you look for any fortification in the areas of any
14 apparent conflicts? By fortification I mean trenches,
15 bunkers, fox holes, that type of thing?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Where did you look? In and around which villages did
18 you look for fortification?
19 A. Our mission, when we were taking photography was limited
20 to where we were allowed to travel. For example, there
21 is a small location near to Pirici which, when I visited
22 there, was being reinhabited by Bosnian Muslims. They
23 described to me that the village had been attacked or
24 that location had been attacked by the HVO on 16th
25 April, and then they showed me some trenches and what
1 appeared to be a command post, which would link one
2 trench system to another and indicated that that was HVO
3 trench positions, which was just below a ridge line, but
4 we were very restricted in our ability to investigate
5 any trench positions. Particularly I distinctly
6 remember seeing mines at the side of the road in the
7 grass in that location. It is quite surprising to see
8 people rebuilding their homes when there are mines next
9 to the house.
10 Q. Did you take any pictures of any fortification?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you look for any fortification that would indicate
13 defensive fortification approximate to these villages,
14 not a confrontation line later in the war, but defensive
15 fortification approximate to Pirici, Ahmici and Santici
16 and so forth?
17 A. I'm not a soldier so I wouldn't know. If I saw a
18 trench, I would take a photograph, if possible, of a
19 trench or associated structure, but I'm simply not
20 qualified to say when that structure was built, when the
21 trench was dug, whether it was dug for the purposes of
22 defence, whether it was dug for the purposes of offence,
23 whether it was -- whether that positioning of that
24 trench could serve both purposes. I'm just not a
25 military man.
1 Q. Have any of those photographs been provided to the
2 Defence, if you know?
3 A. No.
4 Q. I'll reserve that point, your Honour, for a later
5 hearing. Perhaps, your Honour, while I ask some more
6 questions about this exhibit, Mr. Dubuisson could assist
7 and see if he can locate the aerial photograph of the
8 town of Vitez.
9 With respect to these maps, is this exhibit one of
10 the maps provided by the UK Ministry of Defence?
11 A. Yes, it is, sir.
12 Q. Now you gave various dates on which you believed these
13 photographs were taken. Do you know those dates from
14 your own personal knowledge?
15 A. Not from my personal knowledge, no.
16 Q. They have been provided to you by someone else?
17 A. Yes, they have.
18 Q. Would you agree that it's very important that the
19 Tribunal know the date of these photographs?
20 A. The -- yes.
21 Q. Because if they were taken on a different date before or
22 after the war, they may reflect the existence of
23 structures or the non-existence of structures and be
24 misleading. Would you agree with that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know were these maps obtained from the Ministry
2 of Defence for use for this purpose, to be used and
3 presented as evidence in the trial?
4 A. We asked for these maps, those photographs. What use
5 they would be put to at the time, certainly for trial
6 ... they have since been put to use during trial.
7 Whether that was the initial objective, no.
8 Q. Do you know whether any of these aerial photographs were
9 shown to the Defence prior to being presented and moved
10 into evidence at the trial?
11 A. I recall showing yourself one some months ago.
12 Q. One aerial photograph?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Any of the others?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You believe they were not shown to the Defence prior to
17 being moved for admission?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. I have a few more questions about this subject and I'm
20 not asking you to reveal any sensitive or confidential
21 data, so please answer carefully. Without telling us
22 which, do you know whether these photographs were taken
23 as a result of over flight photography or satellite
24 photography and I'm not asking for you to specify but
25 I'm asking you do you know whether it was one or the
1 other?
2 MR. HARMON: I'm going to object, your Honour. I think
3 that question is improper.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment, please. First, I would like
5 Mr. Hayman to finish his question and then I can deal
6 with your objection. Have you completed -- first of
7 all I would like to ask you, Mr. Hayman, whether you have
8 completed your question?
9 MR. HAYMAN: Yes.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?
11 MR. HARMON: I would object, your Honour, to the means in
12 which this photograph was taken. I don't believe that
13 is a proper question to be asked.
14 MR. HAYMAN: I can explain my purpose.
15 JUDGE JORDA: What was your purpose, Mr. Hayman, the reasons
16 you have?
17 MR. HAYMAN: We've heard, for example, that at least there's
18 a possibility the mosque in Busovaca was not destroyed
19 until May of 1994. If these photographs were taken as
20 part of a regular series, there may be other maps,
21 perhaps at monthly intervals or quarterly intervals,
22 that could help us learn, all of us when particular
23 structures were destroyed and so forth. That's more
24 likely to be the case if they are satellite photos taken
25 during regular over flights of the region. On the
1 other hand, if a special airplane, aerial photography
2 was undertaken, a one-time mission, then that
3 possibility would not exist. I'm simply trying to
4 identify the relevant issues under Rule 70. I'm not
5 trying to extract any sensitive information from this
6 witness. I'm not asking him whether it was satellite
7 or over flight. I'm just asking him whether he knows.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, as Rule 70, you know that you can
9 only reveal the source with the consent of the person or
10 entity who supplied them to you. I suppose you have
11 that.
12 MR. HARMON: That's correct, your Honour. That is one of
13 the bases of my objections. The other is, your Honour,
14 these photographs have been tendered for purposes of
15 showing various relationships of villages and the
16 like. Mr. Leach has testified that these exhibits
17 accurately depict the relationships and the physical
18 characteristics as in each of these exhibits. The
19 provider has not authorised us to reveal the nature of
20 the source of these photographs, how they were taken.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but, Mr. Harmon, you put me into somewhat
22 of a paradoxical situation. You are showing these
23 maps. You have the consent of the person or entities
24 who provided them. You have just said that.
25 MR. HARMON: That's right, your Honour.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Therefore, it's obvious that you are in a
2 situation where the Defence is using them and it seems
3 in order to use them he needs to ask a certain number of
4 questions. Now if your investigator and witness
5 considers that he cannot answer some of the questions,
6 he just will not answer and the Tribunal will take the
7 consequences from that, which it considers appropriate
8 to take. You took the initiative of showing these
9 maps. You remember that the Defence raised objections
10 of principle and I can also say to the Defence that it's
11 using these maps. Therefore some of the objections
12 raised by the Defence can no longer be made. However,
13 since the maps are there, they were accepted as evidence
14 and the Tribunal must be sure that they are covered by
15 Rule 70B, and my conclusion is that if the investigator
16 cannot answer some of the questions, then he will not
17 answer. All of this will be put in the transcript, and
18 the Tribunal will draw the consequences that it has to
19 draw from that. I think that you can now proceed,
20 Mr. Hayman.
21 MR. HAYMAN: We will simply take -- I take it, your Honour,
22 to that question the witness declines to answer on
23 grounds of Rule 70.
24 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I think it's fair to say that the
25 witness declines to answer that question because he is
1 not authorised by the provider to provide the answer to
2 that question.
3 MR. HAYMAN: That's fine. I just wanted --
4 JUDGE JORDA: Well, you can't dictate the answer,
5 Mr. Prosecutor. He knows what he's going to answer.
6 Let the Presiding Judge ask the witness to answer the
7 way he wants. It's not Mr. Leach's answer through
8 Mr. Harmon. Mr. Hayman asked a question. Mr. Leach,
9 would you like to answer the question? First of all,
10 going back to Mr. Hayman, would you please repeat your
11 question.
12 MR. HAYMAN: Without telling us, Mr. Leach, whether this was
13 satellite or aerial imagery, that's over flight imagery,
14 can you tell us whether you know which of those
15 categories was the source of this photography?
16 A. I do not know.
17 Q. You have no knowledge?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could you turn on your microphone,
19 Mr. Leach?
20 A. I have no knowledge.
21 Q. You have told us also you have no personal knowledge of
22 the dates on which this or any other aerial photograph
23 were taken?
24 A. The dates I have provided in my testimony were,
25 I believe, the accurate dates.
1 Q. But they were provided to you by somebody else?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you able to identify that person to us or is that
4 something you cannot do?
5 A. I cannot do that.
6 Q. May I enquire, your Honour, whether Mr. Dubuisson has
7 located an aerial photograph of the town of Vitez? If
8 he has, I would ask that it be placed on the easel. In
9 terms of this Rule 70 question, your Honour, I suggest
10 that it be reserved and it can be discussed at a future
11 time convenient to the court, the potential implications
12 of this type of situation. I don't feel any need to go
13 into it further here.
14 JUDGE JORDA: However, I would like to point out,
15 Mr. Hayman, that you are now using this evidence.
16 Therefore, you cannot at the same time challenge the
17 principle of protection and use the evidence as part of
18 your strategy. Therefore, if you desire at another
19 point in the proceedings, if you wish to ask questions,
20 the Tribunal will note the questions, but for the time
21 being the Tribunal notes that you yourself are using
22 this evidence for the Defence of your client. Are we
23 agreed on that point?
24 MR. HAYMAN: I have asked the witness about it, but I would
25 also submit I should not be required to put all of my
1 eggs in one basket; in other words, I shouldn't be
2 required to abstain from asking any questions in the
3 hope the exhibit is excluded under Rule 70 and then if
4 it is not, I have foregone any cross-examination.
5 JUDGE JORDA: We did not understand one another. I don't
6 think I expressed myself correctly. One way or another
7 this evidence -- there are two questions that arise.
8 There is a principle to know whether it is covered by
9 Rule 70. On that point, since the day before
10 yesterday, you made some comments. One way or another
11 you have just repeated that. We have noted it. If
12 you want to go back to what you said before, you can.
13 But the second point is that apparently you need
14 for the Defence of your client, you need to use this
15 evidence. However, I am simply noting that. Now
16 perhaps we can put the Vitez photo up, but even before
17 we do that, perhaps we should take a break and resume at
18 11.35. The court stands adjourned.
19 (11.15 am)
20 (Short break)
21 (11.35 am)
22 JUDGE JORDA: The session is resumed. Can we have the
23 accused in, please?
24 (Accused re-enters court)
25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, do you think that you'll be
1 finished by 1 o'clock?
2 MR. HAYMAN: I will be finished in ten minutes, your Honour.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Perfect. I ask this question so that we
4 would know how much time would be needed, because the
5 judges have some questions to ask as well, and we need
6 it for the organisation of our work. Mr. Dubuisson,
7 let's be sure that we have the proper maps being
8 displayed. All right. Proceed please.
9 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. Leach, we have here on the easel,
10 Exhibit 45, an aerial photograph principally of the
11 Vitez town area; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. You previously testified that the Hotel Vitez lies in
14 the valley floor; is that right?
15 A. It's in the centre of Vitez. I do not know if I used
16 the phrase "valley floor". I may have done.
17 Q. Does the town of Vitez lie in the valley floor of the
18 Lasva Valley?
19 A. Yes, it does.
20 Q. In fact, can you see -- is this the river flowing here?
21 A. That appears to be the river, yes.
22 Q. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the Hotel
23 Vitez on this map and perhaps, if it's possible, your
24 Honour, the camera can zoom in a bit, because I know
25 this map is difficult to see from the distance at which
1 the court sits?
2 JUDGE JORDA: I do not know whether the camera will be able
3 to do it. It's trying to facilitate your work,
4 Mr. Hayman. Now, Mr. Leach, can see the map and the
5 judges can see it as well, as well as seeing the Hotel
6 Vitez. I do not know if the camera can actually do all
7 of that but let's try. Go ahead fine.
8 MR. HAYMAN: Would you agree the location mark A, Hotel
9 Vitez, is the Hotel Vitez?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would you agree that looking across in this manner
12 towards the river, that that's roughly a northerly
13 direction?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now do you know where the front door of the Hotel Vitez
16 is?
17 A. I would describe the front door as being the main
18 entrance, which is on the main road.
19 Q. The main road being this road?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Running in an east-west direction?
22 A. And there's a small lawn with some trees in front of it
23 and it has, say, a glass domed canopy in front of the
24 door.
25 Q. When you step in front of the Hotel Vitez and look
1 across the road, what do you see, what I'm pointing at
2 with this pen?
3 A. I'm not sure if I can see -- there's a building
4 opposite.
5 Q. It's a gas station, isn't it?
6 A. The gas station is further down the road to the south --
7 to the west possibly. I think opposite the Hotel Vitez
8 may be the municipal buildings.
9 Q. Are there a number of buildings across the street to the
10 north?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So when you look out from the front of the hotel, you
13 see those buildings?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now if you look to the right in an easterly direction
16 from the front of the hotel, you see another building,
17 do you not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That is the building marked C on this map?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That's the PTT building?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many floors is it?
24 A. The PTT building?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. I am not sure, maybe two.
2 Q. It is at least two or three floors, isn't it?
3 A. Probably, yes.
4 Q. Now if you look where my pen is, I'm showing an arc to
5 the east and the north. Would you agree with a small
6 path through the PTT building and the building
7 immediately to the north, basically all you would see to
8 the north and the east of the entrance to the Hotel
9 Vitez are these other buildings; is that correct?
10 A. From the ground floor?
11 Q. From the ground level?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now when you look -- if you were to look to the north,
14 north west from the entrance of the Hotel Vitez, looking
15 up the hill in the manner I'm indicating (indicating)
16 what would you see up here or beyond?
17 A. I wouldn't, first of all, describe that as a hill but
18 you would see open ground.
19 Q. You would see open ground?
20 A. The hill is probably 2 kms further away.
21 Q. Are any of the villages you have described as having
22 been attacked, are they located in this open ground
23 area?
24 A. No, they're not.
25 Q. Have you taken any pictures that would depict exactly
1 what you can see from the front entrance of the Hotel
2 Vitez?
3 A. No, we have not.
4 Q. Now you've identified by the letter E the front line
5 boundary between Vitez and Stari Vitez; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you agree that if one were to come out on to the
8 front steps of the Hotel Vitez, you would be exposed, at
9 least potentially, to sniper fire from Stari Vitez?
10 A. I could only speculate. Possibly.
11 Q. Based on your review of the materials in your files, can
12 you tell this court whether or not individuals were
13 killed on the front steps of the Hotel Vitez during the
14 war from gunfire from Stari Vitez, if you know?
15 A. I've no knowledge.
16 Q. Is there a rear entrance to the Hotel Vitez?
17 A. I understand so but I do not know where it is on the
18 building.
19 Q. Have you ever stood at the rear entrance and looked to
20 see what you can see?
21 A. No, I have not.
22 Q. Would you agree that from this map, if the rear entrance
23 is at the back, that is the south side of the hotel,
24 that there appears to be a large structure immediately
25 to the south?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. Now when you were a police detective or
3 inspector in the United Kingdom would you work with the
4 Prosecutor to identify and collect the evidence relevant
5 to a potential prosecution?
6 A. Subject to the nature of the investigation. Normally
7 one would conduct an investigation somewhat
8 independently. The more complex the investigation is,
9 a senior police officer higher rank than me may ask or
10 request the Crown Prosecution Service for the immediate
11 involvement of a prosecuting counsel.
12 Q. But your role would include identifying potential
13 witnesses; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And obtaining information from them?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now you've obviously undertaken a vast effort here to
18 collect information and potential evidence to bring it
19 to this Tribunal. Have you yourself interviewed
20 witnesses in Bosnia and Herzegovina in connection with
21 this matter?
22 A. Yes, I have.
23 Q. Now without revealing the identity of any such
24 witnesses, can you tell us how those witnesses were
25 selected for interview? Who identified them?
1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm reluctant to intervene again,
2 but this is clearly beyond the scope of the direct
3 examination. Mr. Leach's direct examination was limited
4 to the introduction of physical evidence, not into the
5 methods of investigation and enquiry. I would,
6 therefore, object to this line of enquiry.
7 MR. HAYMAN: May I be heard?
8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman?
9 MR. HAYMAN: Had he limited himself to physical evidence,
10 the objection might well be well taken but he also
11 commented on events and other information that could
12 only have come from witness information, and therefore
13 I think we are entitled to ask a few questions about the
14 process by way the investigators have collected, if in
15 fact they have done the collection themselves, and
16 brought evidence to the court. (Pause.)
17 JUDGE JORDA: Oui. There is a lot of practice here and
18 I appreciate the opinions of my colleagues. Mr. Hayman,
19 what we are requesting from you is that you always
20 remain as part of your strategy, of course, but during a
21 cross-examination in respect of what the investigators
22 said, but having said that we do not sustain the
23 Prosecutor's objection, and we will allow Mr. Hayman to
24 go on with his question, but we will be very vigilant
25 that the limits or the borders of cross-examination not
1 be exceeded. You may proceed, Mr. Hayman.
2 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour. I have about five questions
3 that I hope to ask concerning the process of collecting
4 evidence. The question I think I had posed, Mr. Leach,
5 was: have you interviewed witnesses in Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina, without identifying any identities or any
7 information that would tend to identify any such
8 witnesses? Have you had the occasion to conduct or
9 participate in such interviews?
10 A. Yes, I have.
11 Q. Can you tell us, again without identifying any witnesses
12 or other personnel, were those witnesses initially
13 selected for interview in connection with this matter by
14 you and your staff or by someone else?
15 A. We collected initially information provided through the
16 Bosnian government authorities. In certain cases they
17 had taken statements from witnesses. Those statements
18 would either be translated fully or summarily, subject
19 to the limitations on the translation unit here. We
20 then in the Office of the Prosecutor and the
21 investigative team would select witnesses and thereafter
22 identify other witnesses that we would want to locate to
23 interview.
24 Q. So the initial batch of material that came to you and
25 your office were selected by this state organ of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina; correct?
2 A. Not just one organ; more than one source.
3 Q. Did it principally come from one source within that
4 government?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that the entity known as AID?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And AID has a State security or intelligence function on
9 behalf of the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina;
10 correct?
11 A. I understand so.
12 Q. Do you know on those occasions where you participated in
13 an interview, do you know how the witness came to be
14 notified or asked to come to the interview? Were they
15 picked up by the police?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were they brought to a police station?
18 A. I'd rather not discuss where interviews took place.
19 Q. Okay. They were brought to a location by the police
20 force of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And there you would have the chance to meet with the
23 individual?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. HARMON: Again, your Honour, we are going into quite a
1 bit of detail on methods of operation. I would object.
2 JUDGE JORDA: Absolutely. Objection sustained. Please
3 change questions.
4 MR. HAYMAN: I move on, your Honour. I would ask that
5 Mr. Leach be instructed to remain on call to testify in
6 the Defence case, if necessary.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Leach, you will remain available to the
8 Tribunal, should the Defence need for you to reappear.
9 Mr. Hayman, have you finished?
10 MR. HAYMAN: I have one more small area of questioning.
11 JUDGE JORDA: All right.
12 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Leach, on
13 Exhibit 45, does that exhibit depict the UNPROFOR base
14 at Nova Bila, the so-called Brit Bat base?
15 A. No, it does not.
16 Q. Can you tell us in what direction it would lie from this
17 map?
18 A. I'll unplug my microphone, your Honours, and show you
19 (indicating).
20 Q. So to get to the UNPROFOR Brit Bat base, you would
21 follow the road that passes -- you would follow the main
22 road up in a north west, north-westerly direction
23 towards Novi Travnik?
24 A. Towards Travnik and you would go towards Novi Travnik,
25 but one would turn left at a T-junction to go to Novi
1 Travnik.
2 Q. About how far was the Brit Bat base from, say, the Hotel
3 Vitez? Are you able to tell us that?
4 A. It's 4.3 kms and takes about 6 minutes by car.
5 Q. How far then would the Brit Bat base have been from the
6 village of Ahmici? I am sorry to have to ask you to
7 perform mathematical calculation, but I must, and I'm
8 sure you can do it better than I would?
9 A. Between 7-8.5 kms.
10 Q. Have you read the book "Broken lives"?
11 A. Once -- twice but a long time ago but yes, I have read
12 it.
13 Q. Now the commander of the British UNPROFOR forces at the
14 time in April, this period in April, mid-April 1993, was
15 Colonel Stewart; correct?
16 A. Lieutenant Colonel Robert Stewart, yes.
17 Q. Do you remember from his book when he first learned of
18 the massacre in Ahmici?
19 A. 20th or 21st April.
20 Q. It was not on the 16th; correct?
21 A. I don't think it was, no.
22 Q. It was not on the 17th; correct?
23 A. 20th or 21st April.
24 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the witness has already answered
25 the question and I would object to continued questions
1 on that particular line of enquiry.
2 JUDGE JORDA: I think that we have already set the case law
3 here. Go ahead.
4 MR. HAYMAN: So your best recollection, it was four or five
5 days after the massacre occurred?
6 A. Yes, but I could confirm it, if I looked at the book,
7 but possibly three, four, five days. It's over one
8 year since I've read the book.
9 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Leach.
10 JUDGE JORDA: This is the question I was going ask you.
11 You did read the book, didn't you?
12 A. Yes, I did, Mr. President.
13 MR. HAYMAN: No further questions, your Honour. Thank you,
14 Mr. Leach.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?
16 Re-examination by Mr. Harmon.
17 MR. HARMON: Mr. Leach, I have two areas of enquiry. The
18 first I would like to ask you about is sources of
19 prosecution witnesses, because I do not want to leave
20 you testifying to the Chamber with the impression that
21 the sole source of witnesses were provided through the
22 AID.
23 Let me ask you, Mr. Leach, were witnesses
24 identified by a variety of sources to the Office of the
25 Prosecutor?
1 A. Yes, they were.
2 Q. Did that include witnesses being identified through
3 non-governmental organisations?
4 A. Absolutely, yes.
5 Q. Did it include witnesses being identified to the Office
6 of the Prosecutor through the statements of other
7 witnesses?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did it include the testimony -- did it include the
10 identity of witnesses through UN organisations?
11 A. Yes, it did.
12 Q. Did it include the identification of witnesses through
13 other sources?
14 A. Yes, it did.
15 Q. All right. Now if I could have Prosecutor's exhibit
16 number 60, Mr. Dubuisson, given to the witness, which is
17 a photo album of the Busovaca mosque. (Handed) All
18 right. Mr. Leach, you were asked on cross-examination a
19 question about the destruction of the minaret. You
20 were shown defence Exhibit 12 and a sentence was
21 highlighted in that. It says and I quote:
22 "Last month Croatian Bosnian forces demolished the
23 minaret of the Busovaca mosque".
24 Does a mosque -- first of all, what is a minaret?
25 A. The minaret is the tower-type building which is used by
1 the priest to call worshippers to prayer at various
2 times of the day using a small room and sometimes with a
3 loudhailer or a microphone at the top of the minaret.
4 Q. Does a mosque consist of more than a minaret?
5 A. Yes, the minaret is a small, round towered structure
6 which is attached to the side of the mosque.
7 Q. Would you refer to exhibit number 60, Mr. Leach, and
8 would you take out photograph Z1/788? Place that on the
9 ELMO, please. Now in that particular photograph,
10 Mr. Leach, does it show where the minaret that was
11 destroyed once stood?
12 A. Yes. Where the minaret would have been from the base,
13 and if it was undestroyed, it would have been in this
14 location here (indicating).
15 Q. Now would you -- in the foreground of that picture, is
16 there a portion of the minaret that's shown?
17 A. (Indicating).
18 Q. You are pointing now to rubble that's in the foreground;
19 is that correct?
20 A. Yes. That would be where the top of the minaret would
21 have been.
22 Q. All right. Now will you please place on the ELMO
23 Z1/869? Mr. Leach, I take it that that photograph is not
24 a photograph of a minaret; is that correct?
25 A. That's the mosque. The minaret would have been to the
1 right here (indicating).
2 Q. All right. Does that picture clearly show the
3 destruction of the mosque main building?
4 A. Yes, it does.
5 Q. Now would you take the next photograph in that series,
6 which was Z1/874? Place that on the ELMO, please.
7 What does that picture depict?
8 A. That's the inside of the main mosque, the main building
9 of the mosque.
10 Q. When was that picture taken?
11 A. May 1996.
12 Q. When you were there, Mr. Leach, was there extensive
13 vegetation growing inside the area of destruction,
14 inside the main mosque?
15 A. Yes. It's visible inside on the photograph.
16 Q. Did that include small trees?
17 A. Yes, there's one there on the left of the photograph.
18 Q. All right. Now the last area -- you can reassemble
19 that exhibit, before I get to my last area of enquiry.
20 Mr. Leach, you were asked some questions about Colonel
21 Bob Stewart's book and when he was aware of the events
22 in Ahmici. Were you aware -- are you aware that
23 British soldiers were in Ahmici on 16th April 1993?
24 A. Yes, they were.
25 Q. Okay. Those were subordinates of Colonel Stewart; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes, they were.
3 Q. All right. I have no further questions, your Honour.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad, have you any questions you would
5 like to ask? Yes. Judge Riad would like to ask the
6 witness some questions.
7 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Leach, you have shown us different pictures
8 of the destruction which happened in the villages and
9 which you saw on the ground. Could these destructions
10 be the result of war and fighting, an inevitable
11 result? Could the result -- could the destruction of
12 the minaret especially, which you have just shown us, be
13 just a result of this fighting or was it a deliberate --
14 it could be a deliberate destruction? Were they
15 deliberate targets to be destroy?
16 A. When I was visiting these locations, your Honour, I had
17 with me several military officers as escorts of a
18 variety of disciplines, infantry, helicopter pilots,
19 etc. I'm not a military expert, so what I'm telling
20 you now is based on what they told me. Each of the
21 mosques that I've shown photographs of, as you walk into
22 the mosque, you can walk on to what I call a first floor
23 balcony. The minaret is always to the right of the
24 entrance. It appears that some kind of explosive
25 charge, whether that is specifically put together as an
1 explosive charge or whether it's the use, for example,
2 which was suggested to me at the time, of a large
3 anti-tank mine, then that would be detonated, this
4 charge, and the minaret would then tumble down. It
5 does not appear to be the result of shelling. For each
6 minaret to have had the same point of detonation, to
7 have fallen over in the same manner, the shelling would
8 have been unbelievably accurate. It does appear to be
9 deliberate.
10 JUDGE RIAD: In this route distancing which was given to
11 us, one can see that most of the villages were within
12 minutes from Vitez, from Hotel Vitez. Ahmici was
13 within seven minutes by car and 4 kms. Others were
14 within four minutes. Others were within six minutes,
15 five minutes by car. Is this distance enough to make
16 it possible for anyone in Vitez to be aware of the
17 explosions happening around, or even to see through
18 technical means or through field glasses, to see what's
19 happening?
20 A. Again I can only give evidence, hearsay or opinion
21 evidence, but I think you will hear evidence from other
22 witnesses and you will see additional evidence where it
23 is quite clear that, for example, plumes of smoke from a
24 variety of burning houses are quite clearly visible over
25 distances in excess of 3 and 4 kms. Witnesses have
1 told me, you know, that one could hear the sounds of
2 explosions 4, 5 and 6 kms away. So the answer to your
3 question, your Honour, is yes.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Leach. I myself would like to
6 ask Mr. Harmon a question. I'm turning to you,
7 Mr. Harmon, because you are heading the team. These are
8 the conditions for application of Rule 70 of the Rules
9 of Procedure and Evidence. I would like you to tell
10 the Trial Chamber exactly under Rule 70 in relation to
11 the aerial photographs, and once you have explained the
12 conditions in which you find yourself in relation to
13 this article, I would like to know whether you had other
14 sources and whether all the sources were disclosed to
15 the accused as shown -- as required by Rule 70B. Could
16 you answer that question, please?
17 MR. HARMON: If you give me just a moment to look at
18 Rule 70B, your Honour ... (Pause.)
19 JUDGE JORDA: My colleagues have pointed out to me that we
20 are talking about the use of Rule 70 for initial
21 information.
22 MR. HARMON: Yes, your Honour. Are you asking me whether
23 we had received this information initially for purposes
24 of generating new evidence?
25 JUDGE JORDA: There are three conditions. It is initial
1 information which should be obtained only for gathering
2 new evidence, and you need the consent of the person or
3 the entity. Here it is the British Ministry of
4 Defence. This is a consequence rather than a
5 condition. The information condition be used as
6 evidence before having disclosed it to the Defence,
7 which is a sub question which I'm asking having to do
8 with the number of maps which were supplied to the
9 Defence and which are now being tendered as exhibits.
10 Was this all disclosed to the Defence before this
11 hearing?
12 MR. HARMON: No, your Honour. One photograph was; the
13 remaining photographs were not.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I believe that we have now
15 completed the testimony of Simon Leach. The Tribunal
16 would like to thank you. We have just decided that you
17 should remain available both to the accused, but to the
18 Defence as well, which is a request which came from the
19 Defence and which was granted by the Trial Chamber.
20 You may now return to your duties. We turn to the
21 Prosecutor for the following witness. Thank you very
22 much.
23 (Witness withdraws from court)
24 MR. KEHOE: Good afternoon, Mr. President and your Honours.
25 The Prosecutor calls Sefkija Djidic.
1 MR. HAYMAN: Perhaps counsel could spell that name, your
2 Honour.
3 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Which is exactly what my colleague asked and
5 I was going to ask myself.
6 MR. KEHOE: The last name, your Honour, is Djidic,
7 D-J-I-D-I-C. Sefkija, S-E-F-K-I-J-A. Many Bosniaks
8 in Bosnia will refer to their last name first and often
9 refer to themselves as "Djidic Sefkija" when their
10 family name is Djidic.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Therefore it is Mr. Djidic?
12 MR. KEHOE: That is correct, your Honour.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.
14 (Witness enters court)
15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Djidic, do you hear me? First of all,
16 I would like to ask whether you hear me?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Please read the statement or the declaration which was
19 given to you, read it in your language, please.
20 Mr. Sefkija Djidic (sworn)
21 Examined by Mr. Kehoe?
22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You may be seated.
23 MR. KEHOE: May I proceed, Mr. President?
24 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, proceed please.
25 MR. KEHOE: Sir, can you please state your name?
1 A. I am Sefkija Djidic.
2 Q. Mr. Djidic, how old are you and where do you live?
3 A. I'm 43 and I live in Vitez.
4 Q. Mr. Djidic, tell us a little bit about yourself
5 personally, your background, where you are from
6 originally, where you have lived during your 43 years.
7 If you could provide that to the Tribunal, it would be
8 helpful.
9 A. I was born in Vitez. I completed elementary and
10 secondary school in Vitez. I graduated from the
11 University in Sarajevo. After gradation I worked in a
12 secondary school as a teacher for about four years.
13 After that I started working in a military factory as
14 the chief of protocol for the admission of foreign
15 guests. After five or six years I was appointed head
16 of a department and that is the security department for
17 the military facility. I worked there until May
18 1992. In May 1992 I joined the Territorial Defence.
19 After that I worked as chief of staff of the Territorial
20 Defence, and in August I was appointed commander of the
21 Territorial Defence of Vitez. In the course of 1992
22 I engaged in preparations and the deployment of
23 Territorial Defence units for defence against
24 aggression. The conflict with the Croats in 1993
25 occurred when I was in Stari Vitez, where I stayed for
1 all of 11 months under encirclement. After the
2 conflict, after the truce was signed in February 1994, I
3 was reunited with my family and I left to live in
4 Travnik, as my house in the conflicts with the HVO was
5 destroyed and my family displaced, my father was killed,
6 and several relatives. I am now temporarily residing
7 in Travnik. I have more or less reconstructed my house
8 in Vitez and I hope to be able to return to my backyard
9 soon. If it's necessary, I'm at your disposal for any
10 further information.
11 Q. Mr. Djidic, what do you do for work right now?
12 A. I am now working as head of the police station in
13 Vitez. Of course, in the section that is under the
14 control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as in Vitez
15 there are still two police stations.
16 Q. Is the town of Vitez as of July 1997 essentially
17 separated between a Bosnian Croat and a Bosnian Muslim
18 side?
19 A. Yes, it is still divided.
20 Q. Mr. Djidic, would it be fair to tell this court that
21 except for the period of time when you were studying at
22 the University of Sarajevo, you have spent essentially
23 your entire life living around the Vitez area?
24 A. Yes, that is so.
25 Q. During your time, sir, as an adult, were you ever part
1 of the military, the former Yugoslav people's army, as a
2 military officer?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tell the President and the judges exactly what your
5 military experience was and is?
6 A. I went to do my military service in a military school
7 for officers in reserve of the former JNA. In 1972
8 I attended the school for reserve officers in Bileca and
9 after completing this training, I acquired the rank of
10 Reserve Lieutenant of the former JNA. In the period
11 from 1973 until 1990 I attended several specialisation
12 courses and held responsible positions of command.
13 More recently I was commander of a partisan battalion.
14 These were mobile units of the reserve units. The
15 highest rank I acquired was in 1990, when the rank was
16 Captain first class.
17 Q. Did you achieve this rank, Mr. Djidic, when you were a
18 reserve officer as opposed to an active duty officer?
19 A. Yes, as a reserve officer.
20 Q. And while you were a reserve officer, did you continue
21 to work in the SPS factory, as you described before?
22 A. Yes. I and all other reserve officers and troops
23 engaged in our normal duties, and we would be called up
24 occasionally to attend exercises, various training
25 courses, seminars and camping periods, depending on what
1 we were supposed to learn. At the end of an exercise
2 all the reserve officers and soldiers would go back to
3 their factories and to their regular jobs, and would
4 continue working and living as civilians.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Djidic, I would like to take your testimony in
6 three separate segments, the first segment dealing with
7 the build-up of the conflict, the second segment the
8 conflict itself, and the third segment, the seizure.
9 Starting with the first segment, Mr. Djidic, could you
10 tell the court exactly what life was like in Bosnia and
11 the Lasva Valley prior to the outbreak of hostilities?
12 Was it a good life, a bad life?
13 A. Yes. I will talk about that gladly. Life in Bosnia
14 and in Yugoslavia was a very good life. When talking
15 about Bosnia, especially Central Bosnia, which we are
16 now actually dealing with, our life was almost ideal
17 from the standpoint of cohabitation. I grew up in a
18 settlement which was inhabited by both Serbs, Croats and
19 Muslims. Never did we have any major problems.
20 Simply we lived like a big extended family. These were
21 mostly original inhabitants, old timers, people who knew
22 each other for many years. They visited one another
23 frequently. They went to each other's homes for any
24 celebrations and in events of sadness. We would visit
25 one another for religious events and festivities and the
1 children particularly rejoiced when Bijram would come,
2 Easter or Christmas, when children would be given
3 cookies, coloured eggs, roast meat, and the adults would
4 sit together and feast on delicacies. That was a
5 custom observed by all three sides. We grew up
6 together. We went to school together. We engaged in
7 sports together. All in all everything we did, we did
8 together. Only our religious places of worship were
9 separate, as is normal.
10 There were churches and there were mosques, which
11 were visited by people belonging to the respective
12 ethnic groups. It was not rare for a member of another
13 ethnic group to visit the place of worship of another
14 group. This was mostly out of curiosity, one must say,
15 but also it was prompted by the desire to attend large
16 rallies, when a large number of young people were
17 present, good looking young men and pretty girls. Also
18 it was not uncommon for religious events, or to be more
19 precise, meetings or festivities to be attended by a
20 certain number of young men and women belonging to a
21 different ethnic group, again out of the curiosity, but
22 also in order to get to know one another. This kind of
23 socialising resulted in the formation of mixed
24 marriages, which were very numerous in Vitez, combining
25 members of all three groups. At one point in time you
1 simply didn't know when you pronounce somebody's name
2 which religion or nation he belonged to, and I can
3 assure you that I am happy to have lived in such an
4 environment. I hope that that life will be restored.
5 Q. Mr. Djidic, when did things begin to change in Vitez and
6 Central Bosnia; do you recall?
7 A. Things started to change in the course of the
8 preparations for the elections. That was in 1990, when
9 there were first isolated cases of people acting and
10 speaking according to their ethnic origin, and as time
11 went by this became increasingly frequent and more
12 widespread.
13 Q. Taking it on from there, was there some identification
14 with political parties by each ethnic side in the
15 elections of 1990?
16 A. More or less, yes, a majority of people, but not all.
17 All the people in Vitez did not join national parties.
18 This can be said of Croats, of Serbs and Muslims.
19 There were people who opted for parties which were not
20 nationally coloured, and one might say that in most
21 cases those were people from mixed marriages, and
22 especially people that had constant contact with people
23 of different ethnic backgrounds. Unfortunately there
24 were not too many of those people.
25 Q. Mr. Djidic, after the election of 1990, were there other
1 events that caused a raising of tensions between the
2 various ethnic groups?
3 A. Yes. A struggle for power ensued. Simply with the
4 disintegration of the communist system each of the
5 parties had their own programmes, which, when studied
6 closely, were good and constructive. There was little
7 difference among them, because not one of those
8 programmes envisaged war. However, later on one could
9 read between the lines and gather from that, and that is
10 what in effect happened, that there were people who
11 wanted to capture Bosnia and Herzegovina and to proclaim
12 it to be their state alone. In the first case this
13 applied to the Serbs, who carried out an aggression
14 against Bosnia-Herzegovina, and, secondly, it was the
15 extreme section of Croats who at that time tried to and
16 actually succeeded in forming the Croatian Community of
17 Herceg-Bosna, which later acquired the outlines of a
18 State within a State. From that moment on, when the
19 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was formed, even
20 greater problems presented themselves, especially for
21 the Muslims, who were already defending themselves from
22 the Serbs' aggression.
23 Q. Let's go back to the formation of the Croatian Community
24 of Herceg-Bosna. Mr. Djidic, do you recall
25 approximately when the Croatian Community of
1 Herceg-Bosna was formed?
2 A. I think it was in 1991.
3 Q. Did the relationship between the Bosnian Muslims in the
4 Vitez area and the Bosnian Croats change after the
5 formation of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna in
6 1991?
7 A. Yes. Relations changed substantially. This was
8 evidenced by various phenomena and in various places,
9 where the Muslims became second rate in relation to the
10 Croats.
11 Q. Explain that, Mr. Djidic. What do you mean when you say
12 that "Muslims became second rate in relation to the
13 Bosnian Croats"? Could you explain that to the court?
14 A. First of all, the political leadership of the HDZ wanted
15 everyone in the so-called Herceg-Bosna to observe the
16 laws of Herceg-Bosna and to recognise the authority of
17 Herceg-Bosna, that is of the Croats, regardless of
18 whether there were 100, 1,000 or many thousand Muslims
19 living in a particular town, that is to say in Vitez,
20 where the ratio in terms of the population was more or
21 less 50: 50, with only 2 or 3 per cent -- with the
22 Croats having only 2 or 3 per cent higher share in the
23 population.
24 As a second reason and explanation that the
25 Muslims became second rate, I would like to refer to the
1 fact that workers, Muslims, who did not wish to sign
2 their allegiance to Herceg-Bosna were fired by their
3 employers. A further interesting example is the fact
4 that with the formation of the Croatian Community of
5 Herceg-Bosna, the Croats placed flags on all
6 institutions and factories and even private homes, flags
7 which were those of a neighbouring state, that is The
8 Republic of Croatia, that is the national flag, as if
9 no-one else lived in Vitez except the Croats. There
10 are many more examples that one might refer to.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Djidic, you said that there were elections in
12 1990 throughout Bosnia. Were the Muslims in the Vitez
13 area or any place else in Central Bosnia given a choice
14 as to whether or not they wanted their particular
15 opstina or municipality to become a part of the Croatian
16 Community of Herceg-Bosna?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you -- I'm sorry. Continue.
19 A. At the time of the elections each individual was free to
20 choose one of the parties. The aim and task of each
21 party was to come into power. However, that power
22 would be a joint -- a joint government would be
23 established, which would be shared in percentages, as
24 emerged from the elections, so that all the people
25 living in the territory of the Vitez municipality would
1 be represented in that government, and that would have
2 been correct, if it had been done that way. However,
3 it was not done that way. The HDZ wanted through the
4 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna to control all power
5 and to be superior, to have control over all people who
6 lived in the -- within the imagined borders of
7 Herceg-Bosna. Similarly the authorities of the
8 so-called Herceg-Bosna did not recognise the legally
9 elected authorities in the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina
10 based in Sarajevo, but had their own supreme authority,
11 which in those days was situated in Grude and in Mostar,
12 or, to be more precise, in Zagreb.
13 Q. How do you know that the authorities in Vitez for the
14 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna would not recognise
15 the authority of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
16 in Sarajevo?
17 A. This is common knowledge to me and everyone else,
18 because HDZ representatives did not go for consultations
19 to Sarajevo, but went for consultations to Grude, to
20 Mostar and to Zagreb. Simply the man who was at the
21 time President of the Presidency was not recognised as
22 the legitimate representative of all the citizens of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 Q. Who was that individual?
25 A. It was Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, the President of the
1 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Q. Now did have you conversations with HDZ political
3 leaders in Vitez who told you that they would not
4 recognise the authority of President Alija Izetbegovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. With whom?
7 A. The meetings that we had and which were very frequent
8 with HDZ members and members of the HVO were mostly held
9 over the establishment and recognition of the authority
10 of the HVO, as the only possible solution for these
11 parts of the imagined Herceg-Bosna. On one occasion
12 Mr. Pero Skopljak at a meeting attended by -- still
13 attended by both Muslims and Croats said that he did not
14 recognise Alija or the army, but that his authority in
15 Grude was -- that his authorities were in Grude and in
16 Zagreb.
17 Q. Mr. Djidic, who were these other political leaders
18 besides Pero Skopljak and what was Pero Skopljak's role?
19 A. Pero Skopljak initially, that is in 1991, was the chief
20 of police and at the same time I think he was the
21 President of the HDZ. That is why he gave up his post
22 as chief of police and dedicated himself to the work of
23 the Presidency of the HDZ.
24 Q. Just going back to my question, Mr. Djidic, could you
25 identify the other political leaders of the Croatian
1 Community of Herceg-Bosna and the HDZ? Who over the
2 course of time indicated to you that they were not going
3 to comply with the laws of The Republic of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina in Sarajevo?
5 A. In Vitez people, Croats, with whom I had contact most
6 frequently and who were also the authors together with
7 people from other cities of the Croatian Community of
8 Herceg-Bosna were in the first place: Ivicia Santic,
9 Anto Valenta, Pero Skopljak, Marjan Skopljak, Mario
10 Cerkez and many others, together with Mr. Kordic, who was
11 from Busovaca, but who at that time was one of the
12 leaders of the party of the Croatian Democratic Union,
13 as well as Mate Boban, whom I did not have occasion to
14 talk to, but people from Vitez mostly had to be given
15 advice and to receive orders from the authorities that
16 were based in Grude.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, Mr. Kehoe, I think we'll stop for
18 today. I would like to remind you that we'll resume
19 for a closed hearing on Monday at 9.30, and we will then
20 resume the questioning of Mr. Djidic at 2.30 on Monday.
21 The court stands adjourned.
22 (1.00 pm)
23 (Hearing adjourned until 9.30 on Monday morning)
24 --ooOoo--
25