International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Case No IT-95-14

  1. 1 Wednesday 30th July, 1997.

    2 (10.30 am)

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Will the Registrar have

    4 the accused brought in, please?

    5 (The accused was brought in).

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Can every one hear me? Are the booths

    7 ready? The Prosecution, can you hear me? The Defence,

    8 Mr. Blaskic, can you hear me?

    9 MR. BLASKIC: Good morning your Honours, I hear you well.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: My colleagues can hear me, I hope.

    11 Therefore, we can resume, Mr. Registrar. Will you ask

    12 the usher to bring the witness in, who will be

    13 cross-examined by the Defence, and as far as

    14 I understand by Mr. Nobilo.

    15 Mr. Djidic (continued)

    16 Cross-examination by Mr. Nobilo.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning, Mr. Djidic, can you hear me?

    18 A. Good morning, your Honour, yes, I hear you.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Have you rested? Are you feeling well?

    20 A. Yes, thank you.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: You know that the examination-in-chief is

    22 completed, and in accordance with the procedure of the

    23 international criminal Tribunal you will now be

    24 answering questions put to you by the Defence

    25 represented today by Mr. Nobilo. Mr. Nobilo, you have the

  2. 1 floor.

    2 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, your Honours, Mr. Djidic, good

    3 morning.

    4 A. Good morning.

    5 Q. I should like to go back to the beginning, to try to go

    6 into some of the details. You spoke about your previous

    7 work before the war, and your activities in Vitez. Can

    8 you give us some indication of the factory you worked

    9 in. It was Slabodan Princip Seljo, what did it

    10 manufacture?

    11 A. It manufactured explosives and missile fuel, and plastic

    12 masses.

    13 Q. For whom was this intended?

    14 A. The factory was working for the Yugoslav People's Army,

    15 and for export.

    16 Q. Who was the owner. We cannot call him the owner under

    17 socialism, but which state organ managed the factory?

    18 A. I think that the management of the factory, was the

    19 responsibility of the Federal Ministry of Internal

    20 Affairs.

    21 Q. What was your post in that factory?

    22 A. I was first head of protocol for the reception of

    23 visitors, foreign visitors. After that, I was in charge

    24 of the security department and, for a time, I was head

    25 of the work community, as it was called, for self

  3. 1 protection and information, which combined the fire

    2 fighting teams, protection at work, and national

    3 defence.

    4 Q. So that could we summarise and say that you worked in

    5 the factory mostly in the area of security?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. This position that you held in the factory, was it a

    8 place that was protected, in the sense that it required

    9 special verification by the counter intelligence service

    10 of the JNA?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. So anyone could be appointed to this post, without any

    13 kind of verification?

    14 A. I think anyone who had the necessary qualifications

    15 could be appointed to this post.

    16 Q. Yes. But in addition to the educational requirements,

    17 were certain security requirements also necessary?

    18 A. I do not know.

    19 Q. You worked in a factory that came under the control of

    20 the Federal Defence Secretariat, it manufactured

    21 military supplies. Did you collaborate with the

    22 security bodies of the JNA?

    23 A. I did cooperate with the security officer who was in the

    24 factory at the time.

    25 Q. What was his name?

  4. 1 A. His name was Bora Jozic.

    2 Q. Who was Dusko Lukovic in the factory?

    3 A. Dusko Lukovic was director of the work community before

    4 my appointment.

    5 Q. Tell me, were active duty JNA officers employed in the

    6 factory?

    7 A. They were mostly in charge of production in the factory.

    8 Q. Were you a member of the Communist Party?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. From when until when?

    11 A. I was a member of the Communist Party from 1974 until

    12 1988, when the activities of the Communist Party started

    13 to wither away.

    14 Q. Did you join any party prior to the elections and at the

    15 elections?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Did you have any position in the League of Communists?

    18 A. I did not hold any leading position in the League of

    19 Communists.

    20 Q. Do you know Sulejman Kalco?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. He was working in the factory with you?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Later on did you cooperate with him and if you did in

    25 what way?

  5. 1 A. Yes, Sulejman Kalco was my deputy in the TO

    2 headquarters, TO staff.

    3 Q. Becir Varupa, was he an associate of yours during the

    4 war?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Did you work together in the factory?

    7 A. I was his superior.

    8 Q. The same question Midhad Berbic during the war and in

    9 the factory?

    10 A. I was his superior. He worked in the service of Mario

    11 Cerkez. We did not cooperate in the war.

    12 Q. Do you know Latif Barucija?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Where did you meet him?

    15 A. He worked in the same department as Cerkez. He was my

    16 assistant for logistics in old Vitez, Stari Vitez.

    17 Q. In 1990 who was elected commander of the Territorial

    18 Defence in Vitez?

    19 A. I think it was Hakija Cengic.

    20 Q. At the time were you a member of the Vitez TO?

    21 A. No, I was not a member of the staff.

    22 Q. When did you take over from Hakija Cengic, or rather

    23 when did you join the TO staff?

    24 A. I became a member of the TO staff in May 1993.

    25 Q. What was your position?

  6. 1 A. I was chief of staff.

    2 Q. Was that the position that Hakija Cengic held?

    3 A. No, I was his deputy.

    4 Q. Hakija Cengic was not commander of the Vitez TO staff.

    5 Can you tell me why he was replaced?

    6 A. I think mostly for reasons of health.

    7 Q. Are you aware of any problems that he had because of the

    8 distribution of weapons from the BNT to the Croats and

    9 the TO?

    10 A. No, I do not know.

    11 Q. And now political relations. You said there were two or

    12 three per cent more Croats in Vitez or in numerical

    13 terms a thousand more than Muslims?

    14 A. Roughly.

    15 Q. Can you tell me what the results were at the elections?

    16 A. I think that the HDZ won. I do not know the exact

    17 percentage share of the votes it won but it was ahead of

    18 the party of Democratic Action. The SDP had some votes

    19 but I think that the party led by Markovic, the party of

    20 reform, had a few more votes, than the SDP, and there

    21 was some SDS that had some votes and there were some

    22 other parties as well. I was not very interested in

    23 those things at the time.

    24 Q. Do you agree with the assessment that in the assembly of

    25 Vitez HDZ won 23 seats and the SDA 16; is that correct?

  7. 1 A. I do not know the exact number, but I know that the HDZ

    2 had the largest number of seats.

    3 Q. Are you aware of the ethnic composition of the deputies

    4 in the local assembly, of what ethnic background they

    5 were, and the ratio among them?

    6 A. I do not know.

    7 Q. In Vitez as throughout Bosnia there was a referendum on

    8 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina can you tell me

    9 what your impressions were. Did the Croats and Muslims

    10 participate in the referendum? What did they vote for?

    11 What were the results of the referendum?

    12 A. Most Croats and Muslims did vote in the referendum and

    13 the proposal on a sovereign Bosnia was adopted.

    14 Q. Was there a close margin, or a significant margin, a

    15 significant majority of the population that voted in

    16 favour?

    17 A. I do not remember.

    18 Q. Could you tell us something about the political

    19 situation in the federal parliament? What the results

    20 were there, which parties won.

    21 A. In the Republic of Bosnia it was the party of Democratic

    22 Action that won. What share of the votes it had and how

    23 many seats it won in parliament, I do not recall.

    24 Q. What other parties won significant seats?

    25 A. The other participants were the HDS and the SDS. They

  8. 1 were the leading parties that won the most votes.

    2 Q. Was a coalition or a single party government formed

    3 after that?

    4 A. I think it was a coalition party, I am not sure, a

    5 coalition government.

    6 Q. What happened with the assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    7 Did one of the parties or one of the peoples walk out of

    8 the assembly?

    9 A. I know that there were many problems at the time. The

    10 assembly was suspended on a number of occasions. It

    11 could not continue working, and it was mostly the Serbs

    12 who wanted to be the ones who would be in control in

    13 Bosnia at the time, to have the main say.

    14 Q. Do you know whether the assembly functioned in the

    15 course of 1993 and 1994?

    16 A. I think it did not.

    17 Q. Do you know anything about the presidency? Was it

    18 functioning, were all the members participating?

    19 A. I think the presidency was not functioning.

    20 Q. What about the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    21 A. The government was functioning.

    22 Q. Who were the members of the government, in terms of the

    23 parties they belonged to?

    24 A. I know that the Prime Minister at the time was Mr. Haris

    25 Silajdzic and that he had ministers, Muslims and

  9. 1 Croats. What exactly each one of them did, I do not

    2 know.

    3 Q. Did the Serbs participate in any way in the work of the

    4 federal bodies?

    5 A. There were some Serbs from the opposition.

    6 Q. And from the SDS?

    7 A. I think that the SDS members did not participate because

    8 by 1992 the attack on Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Serbs

    9 had already started.

    10 Q. Will you tell me, concerning Vitez and your standpoint,

    11 from your standpoint when did the preparations for the

    12 war begin, in what way, and who was involved?

    13 A. The preparations for the war in Vitez, I think, started

    14 in 1991 and the aim was defence from the Chetniks.

    15 Q. How did those preparations begin? What was actually

    16 done?

    17 A. Both Croats and Muslims were working on the preparations

    18 at the time.

    19 Q. But what were they doing?

    20 A. I think that an attempt was made to obtain, to procure

    21 some weapons, and weapons were procured in every

    22 possible manner. Some of the Croats went to Herzegovina

    23 to assist in certain matters. There was a joint

    24 project, while I was still working in the factory, the

    25 aim being to regain control from the former JNA of the

  10. 1 weapons that had been taken away from the Territorial

    2 Defence, because the former JNA in 1991, had confiscated

    3 the weapons from the Territorial Defence so that both

    4 the Muslims and Croats were disarmed. And it was

    5 noticeable that units of the former JNA had given to

    6 Bosnians of Serb ethnic origin, had given weapons to

    7 Bosnians of Serb origin.

    8 Q. Will you tell me what form the organisation of the

    9 defence took?

    10 A. I think that it was the Patriotic League that was formed

    11 first. That members of all ethnic groups could join and

    12 their aim was to defend Bosnia from the aggression of

    13 the Serbs. Among the Croats this was combined with

    14 political activities, so that certain experts were

    15 engaged for particular areas. Mostly we knew what we --

    16 what the other side was doing, and there was quite a bit

    17 that we did together.

    18 Q. Were you a member of the Patriotic League?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. The SDA. Did it engage in any preparations for war, and

    21 was it linked to the Patriotic League?

    22 A. I think it was.

    23 Q. When did the TO begin preparations for the war?

    24 A. Units of the Patriotic League which were formed at the

    25 time were transformed into Territorial Defence units.

  11. 1 That happened at the end of 1991, and the beginning of

    2 1992.

    3 Q. You said they were transformed. Do they bring over

    4 their own commanders, or were they subjected to the

    5 command of the Territorial Defence?

    6 A. No, they were subordinated to the Territorial Defence

    7 command.

    8 Q. At the time, in the preparations for the war, was any

    9 assistance given by the state authorities in Sarajevo or

    10 were these activities undertaken independently on their

    11 own initiative in Vitez?

    12 A. Mostly the activities were on our own initiative. The

    13 government in Sarajevo, as far as I know, since at the

    14 beginning I was not in the TO, did not extend any

    15 significant assistance.

    16 Q. Do you perhaps know, after the elections how powers were

    17 distributed, when you started working in the TO, the

    18 same set up remained. So, from the President of the

    19 municipal assembly onwards, can you tell us which

    20 parties were represented, and how?

    21 A. I know a little bit about it. The mayor was a Croat, a

    22 member of the HDZ. The commander of the TO staff was a

    23 Muslim, belonging to the SDA. The Defence minister was

    24 a Croat, a member of the HDZ the head of the Ministry of

    25 Internal Affairs at the time, now called the Ministry of

  12. 1 Internal Affairs, was a Croat, a member of the HDZ. The

    2 majority of managers in the municipality of Vitez were

    3 Croats. They were not all members of the HDZ.

    4 Q. You said that the minister, is that the proper term

    5 because this was after all a municipality, so he was

    6 probably the chief of security, or something like that?

    7 A. Yes. He was head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

    8 Q. And who appointed the chief of police?

    9 A. The chief of police was a Muslim. It was the SDA who

    10 appointed him.

    11 Q. What about the President of the government, or the

    12 President of the executive board of the municipal

    13 assembly?

    14 A. He was a Muslim from the SDA.

    15 Q. Thank you. While you held a high ranking position in

    16 the Territorial Defence, can you tell us how many local

    17 communities there were, and which they were?

    18 A. I think there were about 10 local communities, but most

    19 of them were of a mixed population.

    20 Q. Could you explain to the court what those local

    21 communities were in our system?

    22 A. The local communities were certain areas which would

    23 comprise the urban part, then several surrounding

    24 villages and all of them belonged to the same local

    25 community. I do not know exactly, but I think there

  13. 1 were about 10 of them.

    2 Q. Could one roughly define the local communities as

    3 self-governing communal entities?

    4 A. I think that the local communities did not have any

    5 self-governing rights.

    6 Q. Well, what was the purpose of their existence?

    7 A. They mostly engaged in infrastructural matters in the

    8 local community.

    9 Q. You said that there was a crisis staff. Can you tell me

    10 which body appointed it?

    11 A. I do not know exactly who appointed it. It was, in a

    12 sense, one might describe it as a war time government,

    13 though it did not engage in those matters.

    14 Q. Was it a body formed pursuant to the constitution and

    15 laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    16 A. The constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina stipulated a

    17 large number of measures and activities which were

    18 permitted in the interest of the protection of the

    19 state. Whether the constitution actually made provision

    20 for this, I do not know.

    21 Q. Did you, in that way, topple the legally elected bodies

    22 in Vitez by setting up the crisis staff?

    23 A. The legal bodies of authority continued operating. In

    24 the beginning they worked together, and after the

    25 discharge of some people and the separation between the

  14. 1 policies of the SDA and the HDZ the legal bodies of

    2 authority worked separately. The crisis staff had, as

    3 its objective, to bring together the ideas, activities

    4 and procedures, in preparation for defence from

    5 aggression.

    6 Q. So these were activities designed to contribute to

    7 defence. Can you tell us what were the criteria for the

    8 appointments?

    9 A. They were mostly leaders of the SDA and HDZ parties, or

    10 rather people who had already been appointed to certain

    11 posts, as well as general managers of large companies.

    12 Q. How did they cooperate at the beginning?

    13 A. At the beginning we cooperated quite well.

    14 Q. Could you tell us when the crisis staff was formed?

    15 A. I think it was at the beginning of 1992.

    16 Q. Mr. Djidic, I would like to show you the minutes from a

    17 meeting of the crisis staff from 9th May. The

    18 interpreters have the text, so we can look at it

    19 together, and I would like to ask the interpreters to

    20 read it. You are being mentioned here. So if you can

    21 remember these are the conclusions from a meeting of the

    22 crisis staff held on the 9th May. Could the usher

    23 please assist us? (Handed).

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Wait a minute. I am addressing the

    25 French booth. You have it on the monitor, thank you.

  15. 1 MR. NOBILO: Unfortunately, your Honour, we do not have time

    2 to translate all these documents for the

    3 cross-examination, so that we only have it in Croatian.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, you have an objection?

    5 MR. KEHOE: No, that was the question I was going to ask,

    6 whether or not there was a French and English

    7 translation. Counsel just answered the question that

    8 there is not a French and English translation.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: I think if we see it on the monitor that will

    10 help us all. Very well, perhaps we should start the

    11 translation. The interpreters would kindly ask for

    12 somebody to read the text. Can the text be read out

    13 please? Can you read the text please?

    14 MR. NOBILO: Minutes from a meeting of the Crisis Staff of

    15 the Vitez municipality held on May 9th 1992 which

    16 adopted the following conclusions:

    17 "1: Enterprises are instructed to immediately have

    18 new tenants move into the flats that have been evicted.

    19 2: The Executive Board must accelerate the

    20 question of collection of flour from Bugojno. The

    21 secretariat for management is instructed to formulate a

    22 request of the crisis staff for the dairy in Zenica to

    23 provide dairy products for Vitez.

    24 4: Sheep farms should be dislocated to Sljivcica.

    25 This will be the responsibility of the Ministry of the

  16. 1 Interior. The vetinary station should be adjusted to

    2 the activities of the cold storage of the slaughter

    3 house in Sljivcica. The Vitez company should have a

    4 generator for the storage of meat in the standard

    5 company. This is the assignment of Sefkjia Djidic.

    6 6: Catering facilities will work until 9 pm. The

    7 serving of alcoholic beverages is prohibited including

    8 wine and beer. Mandatory fines for the first offence

    9 will be 25,000 dinars, for a second offence 50,000 and

    10 for a third offence the facility will be closed.

    11 Medicines, without prescriptions shall be paid according

    12 to the market price. Resources deposited for the

    13 payment of those medicines will be used for the

    14 transportation of the same. Medicines issued with the

    15 prescription will cost 100 dinars per prescription.

    16 8: Our criminal service is assigned the task of

    17 identifying the drivers who transported medicine and to

    18 see what happened to those medicines. This applies to

    19 the medicines that were stopped -- that were intercepted

    20 at the barricades one and a half months ago. An

    21 operative defence body needs to be formed with two

    22 members each from"... the first word is illegible, "the

    23 TO and the Ministry of the Interior to prepare a defence

    24 plan for the municipality of Vitez and to concern itself

    25 with all affairs linked to defence. The operative body

  17. 1 shall be comprised of the commander of the HVO, the

    2 commander of the TO and the head of the Ministry of the

    3 Interior, and two members from the HVO and two members

    4 from the TO, as appointed by the operative staff. The

    5 operative body shall be chaired by a person from the

    6 HVO.

    7 10: The operative body is required to treat its

    8 army in the same way, in terms of nutrition and other

    9 material resources.

    10 11: The civil protection should enforce stricter

    11 control measures in times of the danger of air raids,

    12 and in Tolovici the lighting should be switched off as

    13 necessary.

    14 12: The crisis staff requires that the

    15 competences of the military police of the HVO and TO

    16 should be specified in writing.

    17 The meeting was terminated at 0.30 hours. The

    18 President of the crisis staff Ivica Santic a graduate

    19 engineer and the meetings were kept by Stipo Krizanac."

    20 Mr. Djidic, are these the affairs that the crisis

    21 staff engaged in?

    22 A. This was one of the conclusions from one of the meetings

    23 of the crisis staff.

    24 Q. Did you participate in that meeting?

    25 A. I think I did.

  18. 1 Q. I would like to ask the Registrar to admit this as

    2 evidence.

    3 A. I have one observation to make under point 9. I did not

    4 find what you read out.

    5 Q. "It is necessary to form an operative body with two

    6 members from", and then I said that the first

    7 abbreviation is illegible then we have "the TO and the

    8 MOB and which will prepare a defence plan of the Vitez

    9 municipality"?

    10 A. But the end after the operative body. The operative

    11 body will be led by a man from the HVO. What does it

    12 say after? Is there anything after number 9? You said

    13 something that is not written here.

    14 Q. No, that is from the second page.

    15 A. If there is nothing else there under point 9 then

    16 I agree.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. It will be admitted as evidence.

    18 Mr. Registrar, can you give us the identification number.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: D13. The number is D13.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Will you please continue Mr. Nobilo? Thank

    21 you.

    22 MR. NOBILO: I have another document from the crisis staff

    23 to show you, or rather one more question linked to the

    24 previous document. It is dated 9th May, 1992. Can you

    25 tell me what the relationships were like at that time?

  19. 1 Was co-operation still satisfactory?

    2 A. Relatively good, yes.

    3 Q. I would like to ask the usher for his assistance, so

    4 that I can submit another document. (Handed).

    5 A. Thank you.

    6 Q. The next document is also the minutes from a meeting of

    7 the crisis staff of the Vitez municipality held on May

    8 12th, 1992. Can it please be put on the ELMO? So we

    9 have a minute on the meeting of the crisis staff of the

    10 Vitez municipality held on May 12th 1992, at which the

    11 following conclusions were adopted:

    12 "1: The public security station in Vitez is

    13 charged to dislocate within two days the sheep farm with

    14 the sheep to Sljivcica. Sefkjia Djidic is assigned the

    15 task of providing a generator for the storage of meat

    16 for the Sljivcica Standard Company.

    17 3: The HVO and the TO police are assigned the task

    18 of ensuring the discipline of men under arms at a high

    19 level during the curfew.

    20 4: Dr Mohamed Mujezinovic is instructed to

    21 provide the Vitez Health Centre with a part of the

    22 antibiotics from the medicines contingent.

    23 5: The party presidents are instructed to tour

    24 the checkpoints in the Vitez municipality and to pass

    25 appropriate decisions together with the commanders.

  20. 1 6: Stipo Krizanac is instructed, through the

    2 Secretariat for Administrative Affairs to procure food

    3 for the needs of the army.

    4 7: The HVO and TO commanders are instructed to

    5 authorise leave of absence from work for persons engaged

    6 in the HVO and the TO. The appropriate decision should

    7 be submitted to the relevant enterprises.

    8 8: The crisis staff of the municipality requests

    9 that the command of the municipality and the region

    10 headed by Mr. F Filipovic should immediately undertake

    11 concrete efforts in defence of these regions.

    12 9: A meeting needs to be held with

    13 representatives of the branches within the local

    14 communities. The branches of the HDZ and the SDA and

    15 representatives of parties and the municipality should

    16 attend the meeting.

    17 Signed command of the crisis staff Ivan Santic

    18 graduate engineer, minutes kept by Stipo Krizanac."

    19 Do you recall this meeting?

    20 A. I think I do.

    21 Q. Can you tell me the crisis staff insists here on the

    22 command of the municipality and the region to begin

    23 working on defensive preparations. What did that mean?

    24 Is it an indication of dissatisfaction with the defence

    25 preparations or something else?

  21. 1 A. I cannot recall exactly what was happening at the time,

    2 but certainly that efforts needed to be intensified

    3 regarding defence.

    4 Q. As far as you can remember, and in the spirit of this

    5 document, how do you assess the co-operation as it was

    6 on the date of the 12th May?

    7 A. One might say that co-operation, and especially at

    8 meetings of the crisis staff, was quite good. But

    9 parallel with the work of the crisis staff parties

    10 worked separately each one on its own. I already said

    11 that the aim of the crisis staff was to unify the

    12 military and political structures in Vitez, of the HVO,

    13 or rather the Croats and the Muslims.

    14 Q. When you refer to the crisis staff, are you referring to

    15 both the Croat and Muslim members of the crisis staff?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. If there is no objection, I should like to tender this

    18 document as evidence.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Is it D14?

    20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

    21 MR. NOBILO: I have one further document from a meeting of

    22 the crisis staff, which should provide an outline of

    23 this period of time, regarding the situation as it was

    24 then. Can the usher assist me, please? (Handed).

    25 It is on the ELMO. Can I start reading it?

  22. 1 "Assembly of the Vitez municipality crisis

    2 staff. Date 22nd May, 1992.

    3 Conclusions: from an extraordinary meeting of the

    4 crisis staff held on May 22nd 1992, from midnight until

    5 2.30 am.

    6 The meeting was held on account of an incident

    7 that occurred in the evening of 21st May 1992 in the

    8 Vitez hotel. After a dispute between members of the HVO

    9 police and three drunken guests, Seno Petak, Semir Trako

    10 and Suad Trako.

    11 First the infantry was destroyed, after which

    12 Semir Trako was killed by Perica Vukadinovic who shot

    13 him.

    14 The crisis staff assessed that this incident, in

    15 addition to its already tragic outcome, could provoke

    16 additional ethnic tension, and even conflict. In order

    17 to appease the extremely tense situation the crisis

    18 staff came to the following conclusion:

    19 First, commanders of the TO, the HVO and the chief

    20 of the police station should keep most of the police

    21 forces in a state of alert, and if necessary for the

    22 maintenance of law and order, additional carefully

    23 selected military units should also be engaged.

    24 The state of alert or mobility should be

    25 maintained until further notice.

  23. 1 2: Sefkjia Djidic, Dr Mohamed Mujezinovic and

    2 Mahmutovic are instructed to transmit the news of this

    3 tragic event to the family of the deceased.

    4 3: Seno Petak and Suad Trako who were arrested by

    5 the HVO police should be taken into custody by the

    6 police station.

    7 4: The crisis staff has decided that the work of

    8 all cafes and bars should be suspended until further

    9 notice, with the exception of those catering facilities

    10 which are intended for food.

    11 5: It has been agreed that traffic control at

    12 three necessary checkpoints, that is the entrance to

    13 Vitez and Vjetrenica should be manned exclusively by

    14 policemen from the Vitez police station.

    15 6: After reports on the arbitrary use of 152

    16 millimetre Howitzer, according to Husirvic belonging to

    17 Novi Travnik TO, fired two shells without having any

    18 instructions to do so, it was decided that incident

    19 should be investigated through the Novi Travnik TO and

    20 responsibility established as necessary.

    21 The commander of the crisis staff Ivica Santic

    22 graduate engineer."

    23 Do you recall this incident?

    24 A. Yes, I do.

    25 Q. Will you tell me were there incidents of young boys

  24. 1 having a fight, and wounding each other, even killing

    2 each other, before the war?

    3 A. Such cases were very infrequent.

    4 Q. But I assume that it could occur, as anywhere else?

    5 A. There were fights, both between people of the same

    6 ethnic background and from different ethnic backgrounds.

    7 Q. Can you tell me why an incident which had such a tragic

    8 outcome, an incident in a bar, required that the highest

    9 body of authority should meet in the middle of the night

    10 and take such rather radical measures? How do you

    11 explain that?

    12 A. The situation was already rather tense. There was

    13 tension in the air, which was heightening. We were

    14 afraid that this incident could spark off more serious

    15 problems, and that is why we met in the middle of the

    16 night to see what had happened and what we could do to

    17 prevent a revenge, because already, at the time, I think

    18 even on that very day, or the following day, the first

    19 volunteered attachment of Muslims was being seen off as

    20 it went to the front in Visoko.

    21 Q. Therefore you assess this reaction of the crisis staff

    22 as being necessary, and warranted? Do you assess -- was

    23 your reaction to this as being positive?

    24 A. At the time it was positive. However, in this report,

    25 in these minutes there are no details as to what

  25. 1 happened, because we had a report from one quarter, that

    2 is from the HVO police, this same name that is mentioned

    3 here.

    4 Q. Perica Vukadinovic?

    5 A. Perica Vukadinovic. But we never learned the real truth

    6 as to who had killed a TO member and whether his name

    7 was Trako Semir.

    8 Q. Hearing this conclusion, from this conclusion one can

    9 conclude that there was a conflict between the military

    10 police and three intoxicated guests. Do you estimate

    11 that as a banal incident?

    12 A. I do not know, I was not there.

    13 Q. Would you agree or if not with the -- did you agree or

    14 not with the estimate that such an incident at a

    15 different time would not have such an adverse effect or

    16 potentially adverse effect?

    17 A. You mean ethnic conflict?

    18 Q. Yes, I mean in other times in peaceful times?

    19 A. Yesterday and the day before yesterday I talked about

    20 our life before the war. There had been quarrels and

    21 fights, even then, both within one ethnic group and

    22 between people of different ethnic background but they

    23 were not so bad because people were not armed at that

    24 time, or at least they were not able to use it

    25 publicly. But at that time we are discussing now people

  26. 1 were armed, and one small quarrel or fight could lead to

    2 a death. That usually happened to Muslims.

    3 Q. You do not know about a different case?

    4 A. No, I do not know about a death of a Croat.

    5 Q. Your Honour, Mr. Registrar, I would like to ask you to

    6 accept this as an exhibit, if there are no objections.

    7 MR. KEHOE: No objection, your Honour.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit D15.

    9 MR. NOBILO: I would like to ask the usher to accept from me

    10 three new documents. These documents are from January,

    11 1993. Three pages together, it is one document.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, since we have some distributions

    13 to make, it is 11.40. We shall break now until 12

    14 o'clock. Thank you.

    15 (11.40 am)

    16 (Short Break)

    17 (12.10 pm)

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo.

    19 MR. NOBILO: Thank you Mr. President. Mr. Djidic, we have

    20 finished with the documents issued by the crisis staff,

    21 and you said that the co-operation was relatively good,

    22 that both Croats and Muslims in the staff have tried to

    23 repair the situation as much as was possible. However,

    24 yesterday and the day before yesterday you talked about

    25 the functioning of the authorities in the municipality

  27. 1 of Vitez in great detail, but you have omitted, perhaps

    2 you have forgotten one important body of authority, the

    3 Coordination Council for the Protection of Muslims.

    4 What was that body, and when was it established?

    5 A. That was a council whose purpose it was to bring

    6 together the Muslims, because at one point there

    7 occurred a separation between the Muslims and the Croats

    8 in the bodies of authority of the municipality of Vitez.

    9 Q. You mean -- what did you mean, to bring together the

    10 functions of the Muslims?

    11 A. The task of the council was to achieve within a certain

    12 timeframe a guidance of the bodies of authority from the

    13 Muslim side, because that body was established when the

    14 Muslims were obstructed in their activities.

    15 Q. When was that?

    16 A. I cannot recall exactly, but I think that happened at

    17 the end of 1992. I am not sure, however.

    18 Q. Was the crisis staff still in existence then?

    19 A. I think it was, but it was less and less active.

    20 Q. The crisis staff was multi ethnic, or dual and as far as

    21 I understood the council consisted of only one ethnic

    22 group?

    23 A. Yes, I think so.

    24 Q. You said to provide guidance for the bodies of

    25 authority. What does that mean? Was the coordination

  28. 1 council for the protection of the Muslims superior to

    2 the bodies of authority in Vitez?

    3 A. The coordination council for the protection of the

    4 Muslims was not superior to the bodies of authority in

    5 Vitez, because the power in Vitez belonged to the HDZ.

    6 Q. Was that the beginning of the establishment of a

    7 parallel power?

    8 A. In a certain period, when the Muslims were expelled from

    9 bodies of authority, there were attempts to set up some

    10 Muslim authority whose task it would be to work in

    11 accordance with the requirements of the legally elected

    12 authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    13 Q. Why did not the crisis staff and the President of the

    14 municipality, Mr. Santic, were they the legally elected

    15 authorities?

    16 A. Yes, Mr. Santic was the legally elected mayor, but at

    17 that time the Croatian community of Herzegovina Bosnia

    18 had already been established, and Mr. Santic did not work

    19 in the spirit of the policy chartered in Sarajevo.

    20 Q. Was not the assembly of the municipality of Vitez the

    21 right place to fight against the President who did not

    22 work in the spirit of that policy, perhaps that was a

    23 better road?

    24 A. There were such attempts.

    25 Q. Were they successful?

  29. 1 A. I was not a member of the assembly, and that was not

    2 successful.

    3 Q. Mr. Djidic, were you a member of that coordination

    4 council for the protection of the Muslims?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. What post did you hold?

    7 A. I was then commander of the Territorial Defence.

    8 Q. But inside, within that coordination council did you

    9 hold a particular post?

    10 A. I do not recollect that I had a particular position.

    11 I was representing the army.

    12 Q. Can I remind you, was the position of head of the

    13 Territorial Defence then given to you?

    14 A. I had already held that position.

    15 Q. Was Territorial Defence your responsibility within that

    16 council?

    17 A. I do not remember.

    18 Q. Who was President of that council?

    19 A. I think the President was Dr Mujezinovic.

    20 Q. Who were the members, the other members?

    21 A. Except you and Dr Mujezinovic?

    22 A. I think those were Fuad Kaknjo, Nosret Kalco, Fuad Zeco,

    23 Saban Markovic. Those are the people I can recall at

    24 the moment.

    25 Q. I will now read to you 18 members, the names of the 18

  30. 1 members of the Coordination Council and you will correct

    2 me if I am wrong. Munib Kaimovic, was he a member?

    3 A. I think he was.

    4 Q. You mentioned Dr Mujezinovic already Fuad Kaknjo you

    5 mentioned. Fuad Zeco you mentioned. Hasan Salihbasic?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Senad Salkic?

    8 A. I think his name was Suad.

    9 Q. All right. Suad, Suljo Viteskic?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. What I mean, do you remember him as a member?

    12 A. I do not think he attended the meetings.

    13 Q. But was he elected as one of the members of the council?

    14 A. I am not sure.

    15 Q. Cazim Ahmic?

    16 A. I think he was elected to that body, yes.

    17 Q. Midho Varupa, Munir Helvida?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Bjahtija Sivro?

    20 A. Yes. I think he was not active.

    21 Q. But you agree he was elected? Kladir Dzidic?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Sulejman Ahmic?

    24 A. I think he was elected, but he did not work there.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, will you not read so quickly, so

  31. 1 that the interpreters have time to indicate when is the

    2 question and when is the answer, please. Thank you.

    3 MR. NOBILO: So these were just the names of the members?

    4 I would like to try to remind you, Norsret Kalco, was he

    5 in charge of finances?

    6 A. I do not recall.

    7 Q. Kladir Dzidic, was he responsible for the education?

    8 A. I think so.

    9 Q. Sulejman Ahmic?

    10 A. I think so.

    11 Q. Information, activity towards Slako?

    12 A. I think so.

    13 Q. Sulejman Ahmic, police?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Kladir Dzidic you said national defence, farming?

    16 A. I think so.

    17 Q. Health Mujezinovic Muhamed?

    18 A. I think so.

    19 Q. Logistics, Cazim Ahmic?

    20 A. Perhaps, I am not sure.

    21 Q. Mr. Djidic, you were a member of that council. We have

    22 now enumerated the people and their posts within that

    23 council. Does this not remind you of a government and

    24 ministers with portfolios?

    25 A. From that standpoint, when -- which we had when that was

  32. 1 established, the body had for its purpose to continue

    2 the work of the Muslims who were no longer able to work

    3 in the bodies of authority of Vitez. And the reason was

    4 that the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosnia had been

    5 established.

    6 Q. Mr. Djidic, we are not talking about the same thing. You

    7 said the Muslims were no longer able --

    8 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me your Honour.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I apologise you have an objection, the

    10 Prosecution?

    11 MR. KEHOE: I object to the form of the question, and

    12 whether Mr. Nobilo agrees or disagrees with the witness

    13 is not a proper question. So I just object to the form

    14 of the question and ask Mr. Nobilo to ask questions and

    15 not render his opinion.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Objection sustained. It is the form of the

    17 question that is involved you must change the form.

    18 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, you have not heard me out. I did

    19 not render my opinion. I just said that the witness did

    20 not answer my question. I asked him one thing and he

    21 answered another. Therefore I am not commenting on his

    22 answer. I want to re-phrase the question, to make it

    23 more precise.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: But there was an implicit beginning of a

    25 commentary in your question. So, if you agree, please,

  33. 1 reformulate the question.

    2 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, sir. Mr. Djidic, you said that this

    3 body was established because officials, Muslim officials

    4 were no longer able to work in the bodies of the

    5 municipality. I am asking you not about those employed

    6 in the municipality. I was asking you about the

    7 Coordination Council. Those 18 members, were they not

    8 from a single ethnic background? Were they not

    9 representing the highest, the supreme body of one ethnic

    10 group?

    11 A. I think that this body did not have the objective of

    12 establishing a new body of authority, a new power, a new

    13 government.

    14 Q. But how do you explain that Kladir Dzidic was in charge

    15 of education as a member of that council?

    16 A. I do not know. However, those were attempts to follow

    17 the concept chartered by the legal authorities in

    18 Sarajevo.

    19 Q. Was the Coordination Council for the protection of the

    20 Muslims envisaged by the constitution of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    22 A. I do not know about that. But the constitution did

    23 envisage certain bodies of authority which could have

    24 been established, which were allowed to be established

    25 in the event of immediate danger of war.

  34. 1 Q. But who was to establish those bodies of authority,

    2 state authorities or someone else?

    3 A. Both municipal and state authorities under the orders of

    4 people discharging certain functions, holding certain

    5 posts.

    6 Q. Who set up the 18 member Coordination Council for the

    7 protection of Muslims, which body of authority appointed

    8 this council?

    9 A. I do not recall exactly.

    10 Q. Was it the assembly of the municipality?

    11 A. I do not think so.

    12 Q. Was it the mayor, Santic?

    13 A. I do not think so.

    14 Q. For how long was this council active, from when until

    15 when?

    16 A. This council operated, I think, from the autumn of 1992,

    17 but I cannot be sure, until the spring of 1993.

    18 Q. Do you know were similar councils established in other

    19 municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina in your vicinity?

    20 A. I do not know for sure, but I think there were such

    21 councils.

    22 Q. Where?

    23 A. I think there was one in Busovaca, and in Novi Travnik.

    24 I am not sure, however.

    25 Q. Who won the first three elections in Busovaca?

  35. 1 A. I do not know that.

    2 Q. Who won the first three elections in Novi Travnik?

    3 A. I do not know that either.

    4 Q. Was such a council established in Sarajevo?

    5 A. I do not know.

    6 Q. There was another body about which we do not have

    7 sufficient information, so I would like to ask you to

    8 define it. The war presidency, what is it?

    9 A. The war presidency was a group of people which combined

    10 the military and political functions of the Muslims in

    11 Vitez municipality.

    12 Q. Is your conclusion that this was a single ethnic body?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Who elected the war presidency?

    15 A. I think it was, I am not sure -- I think it was elected

    16 by the coordinating committee. I am not sure, as

    17 I said.

    18 Q. But you do not remember who elected the coordination

    19 committee?

    20 A. I do not know.

    21 Q. Who was the President of the war presidency?

    22 A. I think it was Doctor Mujezinovic.

    23 Q. How many members did it have?

    24 A. I do not recall.

    25 Q. Were you a member?

  36. 1 A. I think I was.

    2 Q. What was your post?

    3 A. I was the TO commander.

    4 Q. A moment ago you said that the officials in the

    5 municipality were obstructed, or rather you said the

    6 Muslims were obstructed and then later on you said that

    7 they had been dismissed. What was the actual state of

    8 affairs?

    9 A. First, there they were obstructed then entry into the

    10 town hall was prohibited to them.

    11 Q. Who was it that prohibited it?

    12 A. Mr. Kalco could not go in, Varupa Midho could not go in.

    13 I think Helvida too. A number of Muslims working in the

    14 municipality were not allowed to enter, mostly those who

    15 had not signed a statement of allegiance to

    16 Herceg-Bosnia.

    17 Q. When was this prohibition enforced?

    18 A. I think it was also in the autumn of 1992, I am not

    19 quite sure about that.

    20 Q. These questions Kalco, Varupa, Helvida they are all

    21 members of the Coordinating Council for the Protection

    22 of Muslims?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Was the prohibition introduced before or after this

    25 council was formed?

  37. 1 A. I do not recall.

    2 Q. Could I ask for the usher's assistance, please?

    3 (Handed).

    4 Can we please place this document on the ELMO?

    5 Let me now read. The heading is the Republic of

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Croatian community of

    7 Herceg-Bosnia, the Croatian Defence Council. The

    8 command of the Stjepan Tomacevic brigade.

    9 Number 5 through 93. Vitez 29th January 1993.

    10 Commander of the staff of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    11 in Vitez Sefkjia Djidic. Implementation of an agreement

    12 linked to the exchange of seized MTS, which is an

    13 abbreviation for Material Technical Resources, military

    14 material in other words?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. "On the basis of an agreement among representatives of

    17 the party, the SDA party, the military leadership of the

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina army in Vitez as well as

    19 representatives of the HVO government, the HDZ party,

    20 and the command of the Stjepan Tomacevic brigade and the

    21 head of the Defence department in Vitez.

    22 We hereby submit to you the specification of

    23 military technical supplies which should be the object

    24 of exchange according to the agreement signed. To

    25 promote efficiency we propose that today, Friday, 29th

  38. 1 January 1993, the authorised representatives should meet

    2 in the premises of the Vitez municipality at 2 pm in

    3 order to reach agreement on the list of these material

    4 technical supplies. Should your representative be

    5 otherwise engaged please inform us, in writing or

    6 appoint other representatives and suggest a new date for

    7 this meeting. Signed deputy brigade commander of the

    8 Stjepan Tomacevic brigade Mario Cerkez. And copies were

    9 submitted to: The command of the BiH army staff; the

    10 operative zone of central Bosnia; the HVO government;

    11 the SDA party; the HDZ party; Vitez Radio Television 1;

    12 Vitez Radio Television 2, and two copies for the

    13 archives."

    14 Mr. Djidic, can you tell us whether you recall this

    15 document, and the problem it is dedicated to?

    16 A. I think I do.

    17 Q. So we are now talking about January 1993. What was this

    18 about?

    19 A. This was a period of the conflict in Busovaca. I spoke

    20 yesterday about this, saying that there were many

    21 problems at the time in connection with the seizure of

    22 armaments from members of the army, and I said that

    23 there was reciprocal seizure of weapons. This document

    24 was sent, as can be seen, to all the institutions in

    25 Vitez, and I remember this document, which had to do

  39. 1 with the actual exchange of weapons, and those who were

    2 assigned to carry out this task, were the commander of

    3 the 325th brigade Tomasevic and the commander of the HVO

    4 brigade Mario Cerkez. I think they also met. I do not

    5 know whether this agreement was put into effect.

    6 Q. Do you agree with my conclusion that both sides had

    7 seized the material technical supplies from the members

    8 of the other side, that is the HVO seized them from the

    9 TO and vice versa?

    10 A. Yes, I agree. But I must add that the HVO more

    11 frequently seized weapons from members of the army as

    12 compared to the number of instances of such seizures

    13 from HVO members.

    14 Q. How many times more?

    15 A. I could not exactly give you a correct estimate. I am

    16 afraid I might not be quite correct, because at the time

    17 I had lost the certain competences when the brigade was

    18 formed. But I was frequently informed about incidents

    19 of -- when members of the army were disarmed, and later,

    20 also, of similar instances with members of the HVO.

    21 Q. When you talk about disarming, were there any instances

    22 of disarmament that were authorised by the police or

    23 were all of these illegal seizures?

    24 A. I think they were all illegal, and individual cases.

    25 Q. You mentioned, in your testimony, and we will be coming

  40. 1 back to that, that there was an order on the prohibition

    2 of wearing rifles in the town. Did this order result in

    3 certain seizures?

    4 A. I think not. If there were such instances, then this

    5 would be decided by Mr. Merdan and Mr. Blaskic at their

    6 level.

    7 Q. Would you agree with me that an individual soldier was

    8 not allowed to wear long barrel weapons in town?

    9 A. This applied only after an agreement had been signed

    10 between Mr. Blaskic and Mr. Merdan.

    11 Q. And when was that?

    12 A. I think it was, again I am not quite sure, I think it

    13 was in November 1992.

    14 Q. Therefore, at the time that this document is referring

    15 to, that is January, an individual soldier outside an

    16 unit was not allowed to carry long barrel weapons,

    17 regardless of which army he belonged to?

    18 A. I think that was so.

    19 Q. Could you please turn to the next document on the ELMO

    20 so that we can proceed to it? Let me try to read it.

    21 So here we have a list of material and technical

    22 supplies. This is linked to the previous document.

    23 Composed by the commander of the Stjepan Tomacevic

    24 brigade and which should be the object of exchange with

    25 representatives of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from

  41. 1 Vitez, on the basis of the signed agreement.

    2 A vehicle, a bus, tam, registration plate: TR

    3 283-12, 1 piece. Sub machinegun of 7.62 millimetres,

    4 M72, without support, 1 piece. Automatic rifle, 7.62

    5 millimetres, 4 pieces. Kalasajikov 7.62 millimetres, 6

    6 pieces. Rifle M40, 7.9 millimetres, 2 pieces. A sniper

    7 with sights, make Stajer, 1 piece, plus 100 ammunition

    8 -- pieces of ammunition. An automatic barrel rifle of

    9 7.62 millimetres, 1 piece. Eight semi-automatic rifles,

    10 7.62, 1 piece. 9. 9 millimetre Sokac, 9 millimetres, 5

    11 pieces.

    12 10. 7.62 millimetre pistol TT, 1 piece.

    13 11. 7.65 millimetre pistol, 3 pieces.

    14 12. 6.35 millimetre pistol, 1 piece.

    15 13. Zbrojevka pistol, 1 piece. A Makarov pistol,

    16 4 pieces. Long pistol called number 9, 1 piece. 16,

    17 hand grenades, 20 pieces. Radio transmitter receiver FT

    18 26, 2 pieces. Money, 150 Deutschemarks --

    19 MR. HAYMAN: We are not getting a translation.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: I am sorry, I was saying that if both parties

    21 agree we have the document before us. You are

    22 submitting it. The court has it. It will be in the

    23 transcript. Could you not briefly describe it, and we

    24 get the agreement of both parties, because otherwise it

    25 will take all day? You know, that this question was

  42. 1 raised by the interpreters, that the transcript should

    2 reflect faithfully the proceedings, but it is important

    3 that it be essential for your cross-examination. So

    4 could you please reformulate your question so that the

    5 transcript reflects what is contained in this document,

    6 thank you.

    7 MR. NOBILO: Certainly, Mr. President. With your permission

    8 we can do that quite easily. The list also contains

    9 ammunition for various weaponry. Therefore --

    10 JUDGE JORDA: (No translation).

    11 MR. KEHOE: It is not so much an objection, Mr. President, as

    12 it is a clarification, simply because there is no

    13 translation we do not -- I do not have any idea what

    14 this document says. Now, candidly I do not speak the

    15 language and it is difficult without a translation to

    16 just ascertain what it says.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: You are quite right, Mr. Kehoe, but should the

    18 court be punished, in a sense, because there is no

    19 translation, so we can ask the Defence to provide a

    20 translation in the next few days, can we not? Or, if

    21 you wish, we will do it, if you insist.

    22 MR. KEHOE: No, your Honour, I am not talking about possibly

    23 -- (Pause).

    24 JUDGE JORDA: My colleagues and myself feel that we will

    25 support your objection, so Mr. Nobilo you can continue

  43. 1 with the enumeration, but my colleagues agree with the

    2 President that in the future we shall try to proceed

    3 differently. You will provide translation or promise to

    4 provide a translation quite quickly, so that in the days

    5 that follow the Prosecution can submit its objections.

    6 But, for the moment, as the Prosecutor wishes us to go

    7 to the end of the list, but I would like to ask that we

    8 would alleviate these descriptions, if it is a

    9 substantive text I understand very well, but if we have

    10 a list I think we can perhaps be a little more concise.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: May I, your Honour? I can say that these

    12 documents, I believe, were selected last night for use

    13 in cross-examination. We hear the testimony to 5 or 6

    14 in the evening and we work to midnight, 2 am, 3 am

    15 identifying what needs to be done on cross and what

    16 documents need to be used. I think the Defence make a

    17 standing request we will provide an extra copy of the

    18 documents to the Registrar and ask they be forwarded to

    19 the translation unit, those that need translation in

    20 English and French and that that be undertaken.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Quite. The request for translation is always

    22 there, but I think we have to be very sensible.

    23 Everything that is essential needs to be translated and

    24 will be translated, but, I as the President I must

    25 remind you do not always have the translations and I do

  44. 1 not always insist on the translation, because otherwise

    2 the trial will have to be suspended. So the President

    3 is there to guide the proceedings, and to maintain a

    4 balance. The request for translation is a permanent

    5 one. It is required by the court. Having said that,

    6 the Tribunal must not confuse between details and

    7 substance, in the interest of the efficiency. When you

    8 consider it is very important to enumerate things like

    9 this you will request it, if not we will have a

    10 translation. That is all I wanted to say for the

    11 moment. So now you will complete the list, and for the

    12 future we will try to proceed in a more acceptable

    13 manner.

    14 Please, Mr. Nobilo, continue.

    15 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. So we came to number 19, nine

    16 knives, 10 pieces. A combat rucksack with equipment, 15

    17 pieces. Ammunition for 7.62 rifle, 1700 pieces. We

    18 turn to the next page, ammunition for the 7.9 millimetre

    19 rifle, 160 pieces. Ammunition for the 9 millimetre long

    20 rifle, 290 pieces. Ammunition for a 7.62 millimetre

    21 pistol, 570 pieces. An RAP set, 7.62 millimetres, one

    22 piece. Clips for 7.62 millimetre weapon, 8 pieces.

    23 Ammunition clips for the automatic rifle shotguns, 9

    24 pieces. Clips for the submachinegun Dobosar, 3 pieces.

    25 Note for all the pistol types one clip and the

  45. 1 accompanying ammunition has been envisaged. Commander

    2 of the 2nd brigade Anto Patkovic.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: We will stop there, Mr. Registrar. The number

    4 of this exhibit is what, D? And we will resume work at

    5 2.45.

    6 (1.00 pm)

    7 (Luncheon Adjournment).



















  46. 1 (2.45 pm)

    2 JUDGE JORDA: We can resume the hearing. Please have the

    3 accused brought in

    4 (The accused was brought in).

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?

    6 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President?

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, yes?

    8 MR. KEHOE: I believe we ended with the, I do not know if it

    9 was offered in evidence, it was D16, a three page

    10 document. I would ask the Defence the source of this

    11 document, where it comes from?

    12 JUDGE JORDA: That is right. Yes, I grant that objection.

    13 Mr. Nobilo, would you please answer. Answer the

    14 Prosecutor what is the origin of your document, please.

    15 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, your Honours, this as all the

    16 previous documents have been accepted as authentic by

    17 the Prosecution witness, and now during

    18 cross-examination I do not believe that we are under

    19 obligation to reveal the source of these documents.

    20 This is not the responsibility of the Defence counsel,

    21 in our view.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: You are raising a very sensitive issue there

    23 because I do not know what makes this confidential.

    24 Really, you are saying that in a way you are saying your

    25 client is the one who supplied it to you, is that what

  47. 1 you mean?

    2 MR. NOBILO: In a way.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: No, excuse me, I am sorry, Mr. Hayman, I am

    4 speaking with Mr. Nobilo. Mr. Nobilo -- either Mr. Nobilo

    5 knows the source of the document and will say so, give

    6 explanations, because he is the one who supplied it. So

    7 Mr. Nobilo is the one that the Tribunal is requesting an

    8 answer from. The Defence is not divisible. Therefore

    9 Mr. Nobilo should respond.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Sir, Mr. President, during the investigation

    11 conducted by the Defence we got hold of a number of

    12 documents and in each case, each document, whenever that

    13 was believed necessary, during our investigation, we

    14 will confirm the authenticity of each document, during

    15 our defence. But we believe that at this point in the

    16 proceedings as long as the Prosecution does not contest

    17 the document perhaps it is not necessary to work on

    18 this.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: I will consult with my colleagues, because

    20 personally I have a position which I take, but I would

    21 like, first, to speak with my colleagues. (Pause).

    22 JUDGE JORDA: The Tribunal considers that the fact of

    23 authentication of this document was guaranteed by the

    24 witness does not mean the adverse party cannot know the

    25 source of the document. He has the right to contest the

  48. 1 source just as you do. Therefore, you must indicate the

    2 source of the document. If you do not then you will not

    3 but at that point the Tribunal will draw from that all

    4 consequences that it chooses to.

    5 MR. NOBILO: We received this document during our

    6 investigation, and at this stage we refuse to reveal the

    7 name of the person who gave it to us, because that is a

    8 witness who will appear later in the proceedings in our

    9 defence.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Therefore, under those conditions, the Trial

    11 Chamber will not consider this as an exhibit. It will

    12 not be put into the case file; and at the proper time,

    13 when your witness comes, we will reconsider this issue

    14 of the exhibit. Up to this point we have set up a rule,

    15 that any documents supplied by the Prosecution or

    16 Defence are the subject of an agreement. I support

    17 putting, if not all, most of the documents so long as

    18 they has been authenticated and identified by the

    19 witness, and of course the other party can raise

    20 criticism and can contest the source. You do not intend

    21 to cite your source, that is your right, but we will

    22 take the consequences from there. You say at point,

    23 perhaps when your witness appears you will then allow

    24 the source to be identified. But the Tribunal cannot

    25 accommodate itself with this kind of an exchange. For

  49. 1 the time being we will not give a number, that is D16,

    2 to this document. If at the end of the trial it still

    3 has not been identified the Trial Chamber will not take

    4 it as an exhibit. That is the decision rendered. You

    5 may continue to question the witness, but it may be

    6 noted that the witness -- the witness authenticated this

    7 document. That has been settled now.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: May I state our further objection for the

    9 purposes of the record, your Honour?

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, make your objection.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: That would be that during the presentation of

    12 witnesses and exhibits by the Prosecution I made a

    13 number of objections on the grounds of foundation and on

    14 authenticity, i.e. we did not know where the document

    15 was coming from. Those objections were overruled. In a

    16 firm but professional manner by the court I was told to

    17 sit down and be quiet. I did so. We have offered

    18 certain exhibits. They have all been authenticated by

    19 this witness. Now the Prosecution wants to intrude into

    20 the Defence investigation of this matter, which we would

    21 all concede is a privileged and confidential matter

    22 until such time as we disclose it. We object to

    23 different standards and different treatments being

    24 levied between the two parties in this matter.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: We will note this in the transcript and

  50. 1 Mr. Nobilo, please continue.

    2 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Djidic, we

    3 reviewed those three pages of documents related to the

    4 exchange of arms and military equipment, and we should

    5 like to ask you for your estimate, at that time, in view

    6 of the state of war and the great amount of weapons

    7 around, would you say this is a great amount of weapons

    8 confiscated from a great number of individuals, or

    9 units?

    10 A. I believe those are the weapons -- those weapons had

    11 been confiscated for the most part during the conflict

    12 in Busovaca, specifically in the village of Kovac and in

    13 the village of Ahmici. That is my assumption, I am not

    14 sure. But as far as I know, that list includes weapons

    15 which had been seized over a longer period of time

    16 maybe, even during the hostilities on 20th October when

    17 the attack took place. I recognised the document but

    18 there was also a document sent by the army indicating a

    19 list of required material and technical resources. I do

    20 not know what you -- what you meant to achieve with this

    21 list, but I believe this problem was to have been

    22 resolved by Mr. Blaskic, and Mr. --

    23 Q. But in this text it says?

    24 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, your Honour, I am sorry, I believe

    25 the last part of the translation did not come through.

  51. 1 THE INTERPRETER: Just the last name, the second of the two

    2 names. Please repeat the name after the name of

    3 Blaskic. It is just the second name which was missed.

    4 MR. KEHOE: From the answer.

    5 MR. NOBILO: You need not repeat it all.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Now, Mr. Kehoe, go ahead Mr. Nobilo --

    7 Mr. Kehoe.

    8 MR. KEHOE: I believe Mr. Djidic somehow lost the last name.

    9 He said it was the responsibility, I believe the

    10 transcript says:

    11 "It has been resolved by Mr. Blaskic and..." there

    12 was another individual whose name was not mentioned in

    13 the translation. If Mr. Djidic can put that name in,

    14 I think we just clarify the transcript. I apologise for

    15 the interruption.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Djidic, would you please repeat that? You

    17 said the problem was to be resolved by Mr. Blaskic and by

    18 Mr., we did not get the other name?

    19 A. That was Mr. Merdan, Mr. Blaskic and Mr. Merdan.

    20 MR. NOBILO: I am asking you now, from a text of this

    21 agreement it transpires it had been reached in the

    22 municipality of Vitez. Since there had been no

    23 conflicts in Vitez why do you believe that the weapons

    24 came from Busovaca and why do you believe Blaskic

    25 discussed this?

  52. 1 A. I did not say from Busovaca. I said during the conflict

    2 in Busovaca, in January of 1993. At that time, there

    3 was an attack on a village on the border between

    4 Busovaca and Vitez.

    5 Q. Who clashed in that village? Was it the Stjepan

    6 Tomacevic and the Territorial from Vitez or somebody

    7 else?

    8 A. I do not know who the conflict was between. As we can

    9 conclude from these weapons HVO, obviously, took part in

    10 that conflict.

    11 Q. How do you conclude this?

    12 A. If they want the arms back, and if they -- these arms

    13 originate from that.

    14 Q. Complete the question, which conflict on that list? How

    15 do you recognise these arms are from that conflict?

    16 A. I am not claiming that it is only from that conflict.

    17 Q. But you just said that you know that they come from that

    18 conflict, judging by the list?

    19 A. Yes, I believe so.

    20 Q. Why do you believe so?

    21 A. I know something about it, although that was not in my

    22 direct responsibility.

    23 Q. But you did claim that by the list of these weapons you

    24 know that they come from that conflict in Busovaca,

    25 I was asking you how?

  53. 1 A. I know by the date of the drawing up of this list.

    2 Q. But you just said that arms were also confiscated at

    3 checkpoints in Vitez?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. How do you then know they came from the conflict in

    6 Busovaca?

    7 A. I know.

    8 Q. Based on what?

    9 A. Based on the fact that I know that members of the army

    10 did not seize that number of weapons at checkpoints.

    11 Q. These are not weapons of the army?

    12 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, counsel, there are several occasions

    13 here counsel is asking a question before the witness has

    14 finished answering the question. I would ask that there

    15 be time for the witness to answer the question before

    16 another question comes.

    17 A. I understand that this document represents a list of

    18 material and technical resources required, or demanded

    19 by the HVO to be returned to them by the army.

    20 MR. NOBILO: How do you conclude this?

    21 A. I believe that is written in the document.

    22 Q. It says:

    23 "List of material technical resources drawn up by

    24 the command of the Stjepan Tomacevic brigade which are

    25 to be the subject of the exchange based on the signed

  54. 1 agreement".

    2 It just says subject of exchange. It may mean

    3 they are currently owned by the HVO?

    4 A. As far as I know the weapons demanded by the HVO to be

    5 returned to their possession, those are the weapons.

    6 Q. So much about this document, we shall proceed.

    7 During your testimony you said you received your

    8 salary in Croatian dinars?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. In what period was that?

    11 A. That was in spring 1992, in the factory where I was

    12 employed.

    13 Q. When you moved to the TO?

    14 A. I still received my salary from the previous place.

    15 Q. That means that was not a professional boat?

    16 A. In a way, no.

    17 Q. In 1992 could you remember the armed structure, you

    18 mentioned the Patriotic League. Were there any green

    19 berets in your municipality, do you remember?

    20 A. I do not believe so.

    21 Q. HOS?

    22 A. I believe they existed.

    23 Q. How many units of HOS were there in Vitez?

    24 A. One.

    25 Q. Was it within the Territorial Defence, the HVO or

  55. 1 independent?

    2 A. I believe they were independent at the time.

    3 Q. Tell me, HVO in neighbouring municipalities, were they

    4 within the HVO?

    5 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me your Honour. I do believe with the

    6 pacing of the questions going back and forth it is

    7 becoming a little difficult for the translator to get

    8 the entire conversation in. There was just a comment by

    9 Mr. Djidic that did not end up on the transcript and I do

    10 not believe was translated.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that is true, Mr. Nobilo. You are

    12 thinking faster than you are able to speak. Perhaps you

    13 do not have to think about the judge and the

    14 Prosecution, but have some pity on the interpreters.

    15 MR. NOBILO: Okay, I will try to speak more slowly.

    16 I asked: units of HOS in neighbouring municipalities,

    17 I mean neighbouring to Vitez, were they independent

    18 within the HVO, or were they within the composition of

    19 the army?

    20 A. I believe they were independent.

    21 Q. Do you know maybe about the situation in Zenica?

    22 A. I knew a little about the situation.

    23 Q. HOS in Zenica, what was their status?

    24 A. The HOS in Zenica, as far as I know, had a great number

    25 of Muslims in it. I believe they were even more

  56. 1 numerous -- they out numbered the Croats, but I am not

    2 sure. After a certain period of time I believe in 1992

    3 the HOS was moved and became part of the army. I do not

    4 know whether all members of the HOS became members of

    5 the army, or only the Muslims.

    6 Q. In your statement you said that somebody attacked the

    7 police station in Vitez. Could you tell us about it in

    8 greater detail?

    9 A. Yes. I said that the police station in Vitez was

    10 attacked. In the month of June. I also said that it

    11 was the members of the HOS who were responsible for the

    12 attack, with the co-operation of the civilian police of

    13 the HVO. After capturing the building of the police

    14 station members of the HOS left the station after --

    15 because that happened after the Muslim policemen had

    16 already been expelled and only Croats were employed

    17 there.

    18 Q. You said that HOS cooperated with the civilian police,

    19 what kind of co-operation was that?

    20 A. It was reflected in the fact that not all policemen had

    21 been expelled from the station. That means that there

    22 had to be some sort of understanding to expel only the

    23 Muslims. The civilian police of the HVO was left intact

    24 and they continued operating throughout that period.

    25 Q. For how long did the HOS stay in the police station?

  57. 1 A. As far as I can remember, two or three days.

    2 Q. Were you present to say that they remained there?

    3 A. I saw the Croat policemen come to work the next day.

    4 I saw them both in town and at the station.

    5 Q. Tell me, when was the new municipality of Vitez set up,

    6 that is the Muslim municipality of Vitez?

    7 A. That municipality was never established.

    8 Q. And how about the Muslim police station?

    9 A. I believe it was set up a month after the Muslim

    10 policemen were expelled. I am not sure, however.

    11 Q. So you claim that a Muslim municipality of Vitez had

    12 never been established?

    13 A. Yes, I do.

    14 Q. Where was the police station exactly?

    15 A. In Stari Vitez.

    16 Q. In which building?

    17 A. In the building of the fire fighting society, in an

    18 abandoned room which used to house a supermarket.

    19 Q. Do you know Eniz Varup?

    20 A. Yes, I do know him.

    21 Q. Where from?

    22 A. We were together in the high school. At one point he

    23 was a part-time student at the university. At another

    24 stage he was an officer in the staff.

    25 Q. You mean in the staff of the TO?

  58. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. That means you were his superior?

    3 A. No, I was not the commander of the TO then.

    4 Q. I would like the usher to help me with the next

    5 document. (Handed).

    6 Mr. President, this is a copy of a writing pad.

    7 I would concentrate here only on the bits highlighted in

    8 yellow. I would like to ask you, Mr. Djidic, to place

    9 the first page first on the ELMO. So, on the first page

    10 it says Varup Eniz and reminder or memo. I am reading

    11 only the text highlighted in yellow; date 17th, month

    12 illegible, year 1992. Title "establishment of the unit

    13 of the TO Ahimici", underneath "Patriotic League". On

    14 the right page it says in capital letters "referendum".

    15 Conducted by the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina for all

    16 three nations and how important it is for us I would not

    17 even elaborate.

    18 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, President. The objection is a simple

    19 one. I believe we are in the realm of cross-examining

    20 this witness with the notes or a notebook belonging to

    21 somebody else.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, I agree that we can ask the source

    23 of this document from the Defence. But I am not wrong

    24 that is not really what you are asking, is it? Are you

    25 asking a question relating to the source of the document

  59. 1 as you did with the previous document, that is the

    2 identification, as far as that goes we are going to

    3 follow the same principle as we did before. If the

    4 Defence does not supply the identification of the source

    5 the document will not be accepted for the time being as

    6 an exhibit into the case file. As for the rest, I do

    7 not see objection -- the Defence -- what exactly is your

    8 objection? That is to say, I do not understand what you

    9 are objecting to. Maybe I did not hear you right.

    10 MR. KEHOE: I am asking for the source, your Honour. If the

    11 source is the statement by another witness, what is

    12 going on, or attempted to be done is cross-examination

    13 of this witness from another, I suspect, another

    14 witness' notes.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, I do not really see what can be

    16 challenged in the fact of the Defence organising the

    17 strategies as it likes. The rules of the game are the

    18 source must be identified. This is what we demanded.

    19 We cannot accept this objection. Mr. Nobilo, I give you

    20 back the floor you may continue to use the document.

    21 The Tribunal, let me remind you is the one that will

    22 decide which documents shall be used for giving reasons

    23 for its decisions. For the time being what is very

    24 important for the Tribunal is that the sources be

    25 identified. That is why we are demanding that both the

  60. 1 Defence and the Prosecution respect the rules of the

    2 adversarial system. You may continue the

    3 cross-examination. You must say the sources. If you do

    4 not it will not be accepted by the Trial Chamber as an

    5 exhibit. All right? Proceed.

    6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we should like to use this

    7 document in cross-examination, and we reserve the right

    8 to authenticate the document later in the proceedings

    9 and to confirm its authenticity and to reveal the

    10 source. Let us say for the moment that this is our

    11 tactics.

    12 Mr. Djidic, please turn the page. We are on page

    13 3. That is highlighted in yellow capital letters

    14 "meeting of the TO staff Vitez". Further down it

    15 says: "Circumstances have led to such situation that is

    16 HOS and Zenga. HOS does not wish to place themselves

    17 under the control. I am sorry, do not wish to place

    18 themselves," then come two illegible words. Then follow

    19 the words "legal authority". "Today, all officers are

    20 required to state in writing whether they support this

    21 TO Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina with

    22 Bosnian Serbs. We, in Vitez, have one Ustasha group

    23 which won in Vitez.

    24 On the next page: we should -- we are required to

    25 state whether we are with them or not. Nor nip,

  61. 1 obviously this is a quotation, sleep on that for three

    2 or four days and then we will see what we will do. We

    3 have to succumb, we have to accept and be ready to work

    4 according to the decision of the presidency of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. 11th April 1992, highlighted text.

    6 Lists of units. Bila, Grbavica, Sadovace, Divjak, that

    7 is in one line. Then Kruscica, Vecenska, Tolovici.

    8 Then village Ahmici, then Gacice.

    9 Next page, Mr. Djidic, thank you. Right-hand page

    10 yellow highlighted text:

    11 "Preocia company 85; Gubic platoon plus 26; Bukva

    12 platoon 26; Bila company 28, 25; Poculica company 85;

    13 Vanovinc company 85; Ahmici company 85. Following the

    14 same line, the words Pirici and Nadioci, Tolovici 26.

    15 Kruscica detachment? 200. Dubravica platoon?"

    16 It is difficult to read this word but it seems to

    17 be loop, "Lupno platoon 25; Savovace platoon 25;

    18 Murajovici platoon 25; Donja Veceriska or lower

    19 Veceriska platoon 25; "D" points the usual way to denote

    20 old Vitez or Stari Vitez detachment 230. Jranska

    21 company 85. Gacice platoon 25. D. Dubravica," most

    22 probably meaning lower Dubravica company 69. D. Selo,"

    23 probably meaning Sivrino Selo. No figure in the same

    24 line and below that approximately 1,300.

    25 Next page, Mr. Djidic. On the left-hand page

  62. 1 highlighted in yellow to facilitate the system of

    2 command establish detachments following the Territorial

    3 principle. Next line detachments first "Bila", then in

    4 smaller characters "Sabovace, Buka, Djviak, Murajovici.

    5 Roman figure 2 in capital letters Vitez Stari V."

    6 I assume Stari Vitez - Kolonija Rijeka. The next line

    7 says Roman figure 3 capital letters Kruscica - in

    8 smaller characters Vranska. Roman figure 4 Poculica.

    9 Then in smaller shrift in the same line it is written

    10 Vahoyihe, Lupac, Preocica. Below that Roman figure 5

    11 Ahmici in capital letters, Dubravica in capital letters

    12 and in smaller shrift S. Selo I suppose Sivrino Selo."

    13 Below; "make an inspection and list equipment arms,

    14 rifles, pistols and lists, that is all."

    15 So, Mr. Djidic, you said that you know Eniz Varup

    16 from school and that he was also in the Territorial

    17 Defence. Were you present, if you recall it at all, at

    18 the meeting which discussed the political situation and

    19 the need for all officers to state their position

    20 honestly, whether they are in favour of the Territorial

    21 Defence, with Bosnian Serbs?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Sorry, not the Bosnian Serbs, the Bosnian coat of arms.

    24 A. No, I was not there.

    25 Q. In the lists indicating certain villages on the

  63. 1 territory of the municipality of Vitez do you know what

    2 these are?

    3 A. I believe those are plans indicating how many people

    4 could be mobilised, and, at that time the Patriotic

    5 League was in operation, which later came under the

    6 subordination of the TO.

    7 Q. If I have understood you well in each village as many

    8 people as are indicated next to the name of the village

    9 should be mobilised?

    10 A. I assume so, though this document and this memo, I do

    11 not recognise this memo, or the document.

    12 Q. Did you see the memo of Eniz Varupa from the first half

    13 of 1992?

    14 A. I did not see a memo like this, or maybe I did not look

    15 at it.

    16 Q. The question was: did you look at it? Do you recognise

    17 the handwriting, the handwriting of Mr. Varupa?

    18 A. My name is Mr. Djidic.

    19 Q. My question is the handwriting of Mr. Varupa?

    20 A. He did not go to school with me.

    21 Q. Thank you.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: I believe that the witness gave you an

    23 answer. Please proceed. You already received the

    24 answer from the witness.

    25 MR. NOBILO: Yes, yes, I have just finished with questions

  64. 1 relating to this document. Of course we would like to

    2 tender it as evidence or at least if we can have the

    3 identification number and then we will authenticate it

    4 when the time comes.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: It will be filed provisionally with a

    6 provisional number but cannot be taken as an exhibit,

    7 I repeat it, until such time as you have indicated its

    8 source.

    9 MR. NOBILO: Can I please have the number?

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment. For the time being I prefer

    11 that this one not be given numbers. They are not part

    12 of the case files, not registered. Do we have any kind

    13 of procedure we can use? If we have a number on it now,

    14 if the Tribunal does not accept it as an exhibit all of

    15 the numbering will be thrown off afterwards.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: No, we really do not. That will not

    17 necessarily happen. We number them because they are

    18 part of a procedure in the hearing. Therefore, just as

    19 a way of knowing what number is involved we will put a

    20 number down but it will not be part of a case file.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: All right, we will proceed that way for this

    22 one and the previous one which would have been D16. So

    23 it is D16.

    24 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. One further question related to

    25 this document. You were in the TO, did the officers of

  65. 1 the TO have to express in writing their loyalty to the

    2 TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina with the Bosnian coat of arms?

    3 A. That was a process of registration on the part of all

    4 people who wished to join the TO. That document of

    5 inclusion in the TO was signed by me, among others.

    6 Q. But before signing that document had you already been

    7 working in the TO?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Were there people working in the TO and who subsequently

    10 signed such a document?

    11 A. There was the former TO staff. The vast majority of the

    12 people working in the TO did sign that document, people

    13 of Croat nationality. I know personally that the

    14 document was signed by Jajlo Bravic and he was, for

    15 several months, in the staff when I joined the staff,

    16 and there was some other officers of Croat ethnic

    17 origin. I do not want to go into the listing of their

    18 names.

    19 Q. So such a statement had to be signed not only by

    20 officers but also by soldiers?

    21 A. This was not a statement. It was simply accession to

    22 the TO.

    23 Q. But they were already members of the TO staff?

    24 A. Regarding those who were already working there, they too

    25 signed, because they had been working in the former

  66. 1 staff of the former JNA, which was, by now, the

    2 aggressor against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    3 Q. Will you tell me -- you said that the vast majority

    4 signed, including Croats. Were there people who did not

    5 wish to sign?

    6 A. Yes, there were.

    7 Q. Can you recall a name as an example?

    8 A. The majority of Croats did not wish to join the TO, but

    9 there were quite a number of officers and soldiers who

    10 did. I do not recall the exact number.

    11 Q. But do you recall specifically a member of the staff who

    12 was a Croat who did not wish to sign?

    13 A. I am not sure at this point in time, but I think all the

    14 Croats who were working in the staff at the time did

    15 sign, but others, other Croats who were not working in

    16 the staff did not sign. I am not quite certain about

    17 this. I am certain regarding those who continued to

    18 work in the staff.

    19 Q. You said those who continued to work. Therefore, those

    20 who did not sign, could they continue working in the

    21 staff or in the TO?

    22 A. I do not know. I do not know whether there were any

    23 such people, people who had worked in the former staff.

    24 Q. As for people outside the staff, could anybody refuse to

    25 sign this document, whatever you like to call it, and

  67. 1 still be in the TO?

    2 A. All those who signed were members of the TO. Actually

    3 the TO had still not been formed. This document was the

    4 predecessor to the formation of the Territorial Defence.

    5 Q. But a moment ago you said that every one did not sign.

    6 First you said that all the people in the staff did not

    7 sign, then you said that all the people in the staff did

    8 sign but those outside did not?

    9 A. I said that I was not certain; but what I am certain of

    10 is that the majority of Croats who used to work in the

    11 former staff, TO staff, did sign that document, and they

    12 continued working for several months. They even were

    13 still working when I joined the staff. They were under

    14 my command.

    15 Q. When you say the majority, I must conclude from this

    16 that some people did not sign?

    17 A. I said I was not certain about it.

    18 Q. Thank you. Let us examine a similar topic, but from the

    19 other side. The statement on loyalty to the Croatian

    20 community of Herceg-Bosnia. Have you seen that

    21 statement?

    22 A. I have not seen it.

    23 Q. Would you allow that that document could be compared to

    24 the same document that was required for accession to the

    25 TO?

  68. 1 A. That is not my opinion.

    2 Q. You have not seen the document, and you do not know the

    3 wording?

    4 A. I have not seen it, nor do I know the wording.

    5 Q. But you look upon it negatively?

    6 A. It was never offered to me.

    7 Q. Will you tell me something else? What about the court

    8 and the Prosecutor's office, we have talked about the

    9 police and the army, I am asking about the judiciary?

    10 A. It did exist in Vitez. I do not know exactly for how

    11 long it functioned, but there, too, people had to sign a

    12 document on their loyalty to Herceg-Bosnia.

    13 Q. You said you did not know for how long it functioned.

    14 Does it mean that the court stopped working for a time,

    15 the court and the Prosecutor's office?

    16 A. I did not pay attention to those things.

    17 Q. Tell me, what about the health care service, how was it

    18 functioning in the Vitez municipality? What existed in

    19 terms of medical institutions?

    20 A. There was a medical centre in Vitez, an infirmary in the

    21 factory, and another infirmary in Bila also in a factory

    22 there. I do not know whether there were other such

    23 infirmaries in the region. I do not recall that.

    24 Q. These three health care institutions within the Vitez

    25 municipality, were they operating autonomously within

  69. 1 the municipality or were they part of a whole structure

    2 at the level of the state?

    3 A. I do not know.

    4 Q. Tell me, the MUP of Vitez, was it operationally part of

    5 the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina based in Sarajevo? Did it

    6 cooperate with it? Was it part of the unified system,

    7 or were links broken off?

    8 A. At that time I was not working in the MUP, but I think

    9 that the MUP in Vitez was operationally linked to the

    10 MUP in Zenica, and the headquarters was in Sarajevo.

    11 Q. You were a member of the highest bodies. Do you know

    12 from the reports whether there were operational links

    13 with Sarajevo?

    14 A. I do not know enough about that.

    15 Q. Taxation. Were taxes collected, such as the Federal,

    16 Republican State taxes, whatever you like and sent to

    17 the State Treasury?

    18 A. I do not know much about finances. Taxes were levied.

    19 What happened to those sums I do not know. Later on,

    20 taxes were collected by the Croatian community of

    21 Herceg-Bosnia and likewise I do not know where the money

    22 went.

    23 Q. At the time prior to the Croatian community of

    24 Herceg-Bosnia you do not know whether the money was

    25 taken to Sarajevo?

  70. 1 A. I do not.

    2 Q. Pensions, or retirement allowances, did they come in

    3 from Sarajevo regularly?

    4 A. Yes. I do not recall whether they came regularly.

    5 Q. The educational system. Were schools working?

    6 A. In 1991 the schools were working, like most of the

    7 companies; and in the spring of 1992 they were also

    8 operating, but with certain interruptions, because we

    9 had overflights by aircraft when Vitez was shelled.

    10 I think that the schools stopped working in the summer

    11 of 1992.

    12 Q. Who paid for the expenses of the functioning of schools,

    13 the municipality or someone else?

    14 A. I do not know.

    15 Q. Was the social accounting or auditing service for

    16 payment settlements, the official auditing service for

    17 the settlement of payments between various companies,

    18 was it operating?

    19 A. I think it was but I do not know for how long, how long

    20 the social accounting SDK was working.

    21 Q. Was it linked up to other parts of Bosnia?

    22 A. I am not familiar with their system of work.

    23 Q. You just mentioned the shelling. You were in the TO.

    24 Did you have any shelters?

    25 A. We had very few shelters, or rather Vitez, as a city,

  71. 1 had a basement in virtually every building, which, when

    2 the airforce started the bombing, were used as shelters,

    3 both by Muslims and Croats, and Serbs and all other

    4 ethnic groups living in Vitez.

    5 Q. In addition to those private shelters were there any

    6 public shelters in public buildings?

    7 A. I do not recall.

    8 Q. You have described, at some length, the political talks

    9 and negotiations conducted in Vitez. In those political

    10 talks and negotiations and relationships, did Tihomir

    11 Blaskic participate in them?

    12 A. Mr. Blaskic very, very rarely appeared at local meetings.

    13 Q. Do you know anything about the Kotorvaros battalion?

    14 A. The Kotorvaros battalion.

    15 Q. Yes?

    16 A. I think I have heard about it, but I know no details.

    17 Q. Let me remind you. Do you know that it was a Croat

    18 Muslim, or a Muslim Croat unit within the HVO?

    19 A. I think I heard something to that effect, but I do not

    20 know anything more. At least I cannot remember now.

    21 Q. Were there purely Croatian units within the army of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I am talking from the company to the

    23 battalion level?

    24 A. I do not know.

    25 Q. Can I ask the usher for his assistance, please, to show

  72. 1 another document? (Handed).

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, is this identified, identified, or

    3 is it like the two previous ones that it is not

    4 identified for the time being?

    5 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, like the -- as in the case of the

    6 previous document, I would like them to be numbered and

    7 we will confirm them later.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Registrar, would you number them?

    9 THE REGISTRAR: This is D18.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Please proceed, Mr. Nobilo.

    11 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    12 Mr. Djidic, will you please put on the ELMO this

    13 document, and I will read it: in inverted commas "The

    14 First Vitez brigade", formation of the command unit

    15 proposal.

    16 To the right the words: "HVO staff", has been

    17 written by hand. I now come to the text:

    18 "On the basis of the conclusions of the crisis

    19 staff of the municipal assembly of Vitez to form a joint

    20 unit in brackets brigade composed of members of the HVO

    21 and the TO representatives of the TO and the HVO have,

    22 as a result of their work so far, agreed on the

    23 following: first, in the initial period the HVO and the

    24 TO shall form one battalion each, which will join the

    25 Vitez brigade and become a part of it.

  73. 1 2. The method of formation of mixed units within

    2 the framework of a brigade shall be examined later.

    3 3. The battalion formations have been established

    4 and their formation will be carried out subsequently.

    5 4. The following proposal for formations and

    6 command members has been elaborated: number 1: brigade

    7 commander Franjo Nakic. Second: Deputy Commander and

    8 same time Chief of Staff Sefkjia Djidic. 3: Assistant

    9 Commander for operative affairs Mario Rajic. 4.

    10 Assistant Commander for organisation and mobilisation

    11 affairs Sifet Sivro or Muhamed Petkovic. 5. Officer in

    12 charge of General Affairs, Zenada Causevic. 6.

    13 Assistant commanders for moral and ethical work Pejo

    14 Dujmovic and Midhet Hodzic. Assistant commander for

    15 logistics Abdulati Barucija or Nusret Zukic. 8.

    16 Officer in charge of the technical service Zdeko

    17 Markovic. Officer in charge of the quarter master

    18 service Anton Nuk. 10. Officer in charge of medical

    19 service Zoran Pocrnja. 11. Officer in charge of the

    20 vetinary service Zdenko Zuljevic. 12. Officer in

    21 charge of ABHO Srecko Pavlovic. Officer of the

    22 engineering units Suljo Haseljic. 4. Officer in charge

    23 of signals Ismet Kalco. 15. Officer in charge of the

    24 artillery Blazenko Ramljak. 16. Assistant commander

    25 for intelligence affairs Ramiz Dugalic. 17. Assistant

  74. 1 commander for security Sucic Ivo. 18. Four couriers or

    2 messengers will be appointed later. Please submit your

    3 comments and suggestion regarding this proposal. Copies

    4 supplied to one to the HVO command, one to the TO

    5 command, one to the SDA party and one to the HDZ party".

    6 On the right for the command of the Vitez brigade

    7 Salavic and beneath that Ramiz Dugalic. Finally, if you

    8 have any comments please forward the same, and if you

    9 have no objections please express your approval with

    10 your signature to the left for the HVO, for the HDZ to

    11 the right, for the TO and for the SDA.

    12 Mr. Djidic, is this the agreement that you referred

    13 to and your decision, on the formation of a joint Vitez

    14 brigade?

    15 A. Yes, that is the agreement we reached, but without this

    16 written in by hand at the top which said HVO, somebody

    17 put that in subsequently. I can now use it as evidence

    18 that the HVO wanted, and proved with this document that

    19 it wanted to be in command of the HVO, and this is what

    20 they insisted upon. But what you have read out is all

    21 correct, and this confirms my statement regarding the

    22 wish to establish a joint unit, which was never

    23 implemented.

    24 Q. Therefore, you confirm the authenticity of this

    25 document?

  75. 1 A. I confirm it; and I think that more or less all the

    2 names indicated here are correct.

    3 Q. So if I recall well, this was a joint proposal of both

    4 Croats and Muslims?

    5 A. This document was drafted by officers from the TO and

    6 from the HVO, and this was the starting point for the

    7 formation of a joint brigade which would have been

    8 called "The First Vitez Brigade", with the command as

    9 indicated. However, the HVO insisted, in the period

    10 that followed, that it should be a brigade under the

    11 command of the HVO, as indicated here in the right-hand

    12 corner, probably at a later stage. And that is why we

    13 insisted that it should be HMVO, as I have already

    14 explained. I do not want to tire you with it by

    15 dwelling on it, because I have already explained this.

    16 Q. Mr. Djidic, will you please turn to page 2. It says

    17 there:

    18 "Forwarded to the HVO command".

    19 So, what is written here, in handwriting, is

    20 surely an indication of who it was forwarded to?

    21 A. I think I made myself clear.

    22 Q. I do not think you did.

    23 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, your Honour. I object to Mr. Nobilo's

    24 comment about whether or not he thinks he was clear or

    25 not.

  76. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Yes.

    2 MR. NOBILO: Yes, but Mr. President, I was just saying that

    3 it was not clear to me, because I did not get an

    4 answer. I wanted to ask the next question. When the

    5 witness said "I think I was clear" I said that I did not

    6 find it clear for me to be able to ask the next question

    7 regarding the same subject.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: I understand that you did not particularly

    9 appreciate the witness' answer, but I can tell you that

    10 the handwritten indication was very clearly referred to

    11 and commented upon by the witness. So I do not think

    12 you have to make comments but simply to pose questions.

    13 Therefore I am asking you to pose the question, and

    14 I think on that point the witness answered. Re-phrase

    15 your question if you so wish.

    16 MR. NOBILO: That is what I had intended to do.

    17 Mr. Djidic, was this text submitted to the HVO

    18 command?

    19 A. I think it was.

    20 Q. Thank you.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: So this is D18. If you have no other

    22 questions on this document, provisionally D18 according

    23 to the terms of what we said before, if there are no

    24 other questions about this document I suggest this

    25 hearing -- another one has to take place at 4.30. The

  77. 1 room has to be prepared for it. We will see each other

    2 tomorrow morning at 10.00 am.

    3 (4.05 pm)

    4 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 am

    5 on Thursday 31st July 1997)