International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Case No IT-95-14

  1. 1 Thursday, 31st July, 1997.

    2 (10.00 am)

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Registrar would you have the accused brought

    4 in, please

    5 (The accused was brought in).

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Does everybody hear? Prosecution, defence,

    7 does everybody hear? Mr. Blaskic, do you hear me.

    8 THE DEFENDANT: Good morning, your Honours, I hear you

    9 well.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. We can then have the witness brought

    11 in, and continue with the cross-examination with

    12 Mr. Nobilo.

    13 Mr. Djidic (continued)

    14 Cross-examination by Mr. Nobilo (continued):

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Djidic, do you hear me?

    16 A. Yes, I do. Good morning.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Are you well rested, everything all right?

    18 A. Fine.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?

    20 MR. NOBILO: Thank you Mr. President, your Honours. Good

    21 morning, Mr. Djidic?

    22 A. Good morning.

    23 Q. We had stopped with the document on the Croatian Muslim

    24 Defence Council, which was your initiative. I should

    25 now like to ask you to try to recall another initiative

  2. 1 for the formation of some kind of union of armed forces,

    2 namely, do you know anything about a joint command

    3 Pasalic, Prkacin, two high ranking officers, when this

    4 was and anything about it?

    5 A. Yes, I do remember. I think somewhere around the month

    6 of October Mr. Pasalic came to Travnik as well as

    7 Mr. Jaganjac and Mr. Prkacin.

    8 Q. To make it clearer to the court, can you tell us who

    9 these gentlemen were, what their rank was and who they

    10 belonged to?

    11 A. They were senior officers, colonels, and I think they

    12 were officers who had come from Croatia. I know that

    13 Mr. Prkacin had come from Croatia.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me, we are not really hearing this

    15 very well. Perhaps there is some kind of interference.

    16 Somebody seems to be very happy, seems to be whistling.

    17 It does disturb the serenity of our hearing when we hear

    18 whistling like that.

    19 MR. NOBILO: So and that Prkacin came from Croatia what

    20 armed formation did he belong to?

    21 A. I think he was in the HVO or the Croatian army, I am not

    22 sure.

    23 Q. Tell me, what about Arif Pasalic?

    24 A. I think he was in the army, in the TO, I am not sure.

    25 Q. And when did you see these gentlemen for the first time?

  3. 1 A. I think it was in October.

    2 Q. Where did you meet?

    3 A. In Travnik.

    4 Q. Was this a meeting? Can you explain what was happening?

    5 A. Yes, it was a meeting, held both in Travnik and in

    6 Vitez. The task of these men was to link together the

    7 units of the army and the HVO, and to try to defend

    8 Jajce.

    9 Q. Was there any command by a higher left command of the

    10 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, for instance, giving them

    11 such instructions?

    12 A. I do not recall, but I do not think they could have come

    13 on their own initiative.

    14 Q. Can we describe this as a joint command in central

    15 Bosnia?

    16 A. Yes, we could. It could be called that.

    17 Q. And how did that function? How long did it last, and

    18 what was the outcome of this joint command?

    19 A. It functioned until the date that Jajce fell. I think

    20 that for some time after that these gentlemen stayed on,

    21 but I do not know what happened afterwards, where they

    22 went.

    23 Q. Can it be said that in this period the joint command was

    24 superior to Blaskic or the command of the Third Corp,

    25 for instance?

  4. 1 A. I do not know whether they were superior but while they

    2 were present there, there were meetings of all the

    3 commanders, from central Bosnia, Croats and Muslims, or

    4 rather the HVO and the TO. At one of those meetings

    5 both in Vitez and in Travnik I was present.

    6 Q. And how would you assess this episode with the joint

    7 command of Pasalic Prkacin was that a positive

    8 endeavour?

    9 A. Any attempt along those lines at that time was a good

    10 one.

    11 Q. Therefore your assessment is positive?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. You said that Muslim hotels and restaurants in Vitez

    14 were blown up?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Which hotel?

    17 A. Muslim cafes, Muslim shops, such as kiosks, stores, and

    18 houses.

    19 Q. And a hotel?

    20 A. The hotel in Kruscica was attacked, Hotel Plavac, and on

    21 that occasion considerable damage was inflicted.

    22 Q. How was it attacked?

    23 A. The hotel was rented by a Muslim. It was a hotel that

    24 was owned by the work organisation called Sebesic. At

    25 the time Sebesic was renting out its facilities for a

  5. 1 certain compensation to private people, individuals, or

    2 rather to their own employees.

    3 Q. You did not tell us how it was attacked, how the hotel

    4 was attacked?

    5 A. The hotel was attacked with RPG shells, when

    6 considerable damage was done. I was not an eyewitness,

    7 so I do not know the details.

    8 Q. When was this in time?

    9 A. I do not recall the exact date.

    10 Q. Could you list the other cafes and bars owned by

    11 Muslims?

    12 A. There was a bar on the bridge across the Lasva river

    13 owned by Najlo Hodzic. It was blown up twice. Then

    14 several other bars in the city itself, the kiosk, which

    15 was in the close vicinity of the hotel. Then a

    16 hairdressers owned by Zumreta Kalazovic, and so on.

    17 Q. Who were the perpetrators?

    18 A. The perpetrators were never identified. We never

    19 received any report to that effect.

    20 Q. Was any Croatian facility blown up of a similar kind?

    21 A. I think not. I am not quite sure.

    22 Q. Let me try to refresh your memory. The Kamin

    23 restaurant, on 29th January 1993. Do you remember that

    24 event?

    25 A. Yes, I heard about it.

  6. 1 Q. Who is the owner, a Croat or a Muslim?

    2 A. The owner of that facility was a Croat.

    3 Q. Was it -- was an explosive planted there?

    4 A. I think it was, and there were various rumours about

    5 that event.

    6 Q. Was the perpetrator identified?

    7 A. No, he was not, but there was talk, I think even at the

    8 crisis staff, and we received a report that was not

    9 confirmed, that the owner of that bar refused to pay

    10 some money to the HVO. This is not something that

    11 I personally heard, so, as I said, they are just

    12 rumours.

    13 Q. So, this would be a case of the Croats blowing up

    14 Croatian facilities and the other was the Croats blowing

    15 up Muslim facilities? I should like to show you a

    16 document regarding the superior command. So, can the

    17 usher help me, please? (Handed).

    18 Mr. Djidic, will you place the document under the

    19 ELMO so that the others can see it and I will try to

    20 read it, and you can look at it. In the heading it says

    21 "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Croatian community of

    22 Herceg-Bosnia, Croatian Defence Council, command of the

    23 4th battalion of military police, Vitez. Number

    24 02-4/3-07-68/93. Date: January 18th, 1993. Addressed

    25 to, on the right-hand side, to the head of the military

  7. 1 police master operative zone central Bosnia."

    2 And the heading is "report on a killing". Then we

    3 come to the text:

    4 "On 17th January, 1993 at about 10.30 pm Srecko

    5 Veber a driver in the command of the Fourth Battalion of

    6 military police in Vitez was killed. The killing of the

    7 military policeman took place in the cafe Pizzeria

    8 Venezia in Travnik, according to eyewitness reports.

    9 The investigation on the spot was carried out about 2 am

    10 on the 18th January, 1993, in the Venezia cafe, in

    11 Travnik, in the presence of military judge Zeljko

    12 Percinlic military prosecutor Marinko Jurcevic.

    13 Operative criminal investigator Nikola Opadak and crime

    14 investigating technician Marinko Jurcevic. In addition

    15 to the above mentioned the investigation of the crime

    16 scene was attended by representatives of the MUP Travnik

    17 Ferzo Daelilbarsic, Nermin Megimovic, Nikola

    18 Augustinovic and a military judge of the army of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina Darmin Avdic. According to

    20 eyewitness reports the murder was committed by Enveroa

    21 Dlelibasic from Karaula, a member of the army of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina who is a fugitive. An arrest warrant

    23 has been issued for Enveroa Dlelibasic. Signed by the

    24 commanders Zvouko Vukovic, the stamp of the command of

    25 the military police from Mostar, and it says copies to

  8. 1 the Signal Centre Vitez, the operative zone of central

    2 Bosnia and the archives.

    3 Mr. Djidic, do you recall this event now?

    4 A. I think I do.

    5 Q. What do you recall in connection with this event?

    6 A. I heard that there had been some problems in Travnik;

    7 that there had been killing, but I do not know the

    8 details about it.

    9 Q. The person killed belonged to the military police in

    10 Vitez. Did it provoke any negative reactions? Did you

    11 discuss this?

    12 A. I think there were some discussions. I do not recall

    13 the details.

    14 Q. Do you know Janko Vukovic?

    15 A. I think I do, but I cannot clearly remember his face.

    16 Q. But you know the post he held?

    17 A. I think he worked in the military police, in the

    18 regional police of the HVO in Vitez.

    19 Q. And these persons listed here, for instance, members of

    20 MUP Travnik, are they familiar to you?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. What about the military judge of the BH army Avdic

    23 Darmin?

    24 A. I do not know him, even now.

    25 Q. And from Vitez the judge and Prosecutor, Zeljko

  9. 1 Percinlic and Marinko Jurcevic, do you know them?

    2 A. I had heard of them. I do not know whether I know them

    3 well, in person, I do not know.

    4 Q. Mr. President, the Defence would like to tender this

    5 document under the same conditions as those tendered

    6 yesterday.

    7 MR. KEHOE: It is just under the same conditions,

    8 Mr. President, that without any source it is not to be

    9 admitted.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, the Defence has just said that this

    11 should be filed under the same conditions as yesterday.

    12 Let me remind you of the conditions of yesterday that

    13 any document that -- these documents would be

    14 provisionally listed as D19 and the Tribunal said that

    15 the identification had to be done. I suppose, at some

    16 other time. Mr. Nobilo, another time during the trial

    17 you will identify the document otherwise it will not be

    18 considered by the Tribunal to be an exhibit. We agree

    19 on this, do we not? I hope we do not have to repeat the

    20 same thing every time otherwise we will waste time. All

    21 right then, this will be D what?

    22 THE REGISTRAR: D19.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: D19.

    24 MR. NOBILO: Of course, Mr. President, the Defence has no

    25 other choice but to accept.

  10. 1 Mr. Djidic, you said that there were no violence

    2 committed by members of the BH army against Croats. You

    3 mentioned the example of your acquaintance or friend

    4 from the police who returned and was killed, because he

    5 believed that the situation would improve.

    6 Let me ask you a few questions to refresh your

    7 memory regarding the situation as it existed at the

    8 time. Do you remember that on the 10th December, 1992,

    9 in Kruscica, that is within your municipality members of

    10 the BH army shot at a vehicle of the Vitez HVO and

    11 wounded a person in doing so? This is the 10th

    12 December, 1992.

    13 A. I do not recall the details.

    14 Q. But do you know that the event took place?

    15 A. There was some talk about something, but I think that

    16 the perpetrators were not identified.

    17 Q. On the 17th January, 1993, in Vitez, in a locality

    18 called Sadovace, members of the BH army disarmed a

    19 member of the HVO, confiscated their vehicle TAM 110 and

    20 two cases of explosives. Do you remember that incident,

    21 that took place on 17th January in Vitez?

    22 A. There were many incidents. This particular one

    23 regarding this vehicle is something I do not remember.

    24 If I had more details about it, perhaps I could remember

    25 better. I apologise. I already told you that in those

  11. 1 days, that is somewhere from November onwards, a brigade

    2 had been formed, the 325th brigade, and with the

    3 formation of that brigade I lost certain competences, so

    4 that I was not informed, in detail, about certain

    5 things.

    6 Q. Mr. Djidic, I understand that, but you were present

    7 there, so I am just asking whether you remember. It

    8 need not be a question of your competence.

    9 Do you remember that on 21st January, 1993

    10 Kruscica municipality of Vitez, members of the BH army

    11 fired at Croatian houses and wounded an HVO member?

    12 This was January 21st, 1993?

    13 A. I do not remember that.

    14 Q. This is something very close to you. On that same day,

    15 the 21st January 1993 in Stari Vitez, members of the BH

    16 army stopped two military policeman, maltreated them,

    17 and cursed their Ustasha mothers. Do you recall that?

    18 A. I do not.

    19 Q. On 20th November 1992 in Kruscica Vitez municipality

    20 members of the BH army carried out a massacre, it says

    21 here, of six members of the military police,

    22 confiscating their weapons, insignia and money. Do you

    23 remember that event?

    24 A. Will you please repeat the date.

    25 Q. The 20th November, 1992.

  12. 1 A. Yes, I do.

    2 Q. Was this the event that you have already described?

    3 A. Yes, that was when two members of the army were killed.

    4 Q. You have already explained that, so we will not go into

    5 any further details.

    6 A. That is right.

    7 Q. On 8th November, 1992 in Vitez near the Fire Brigade

    8 building, I think that was where your command was,

    9 members of the BH army fired at Jarko Biljaka, an HVO

    10 member and injured him seriously. Do you remember that?

    11 A. My command was not there, my headquarters. This was in

    12 front of the station of the civilian police. But I am

    13 familiar with that event.

    14 Q. What do you know about it?

    15 A. I think that this young man Biljaka provoked an

    16 incident. I am not sure. I think that he even threw a

    17 bomb, a grenade. After that he was shot at, and we

    18 spoke about this at a meeting. I heard that he was

    19 wounded. How badly, I do not know.

    20 Q. You say you are not sure about the bomb. How could you

    21 mistake something like that?

    22 A. At that time there were many awful things happening and

    23 Mr. Biljaka had a reputation for that sort of thing in

    24 Vitez. I think he caused trouble with the Croats as

    25 well.

  13. 1 Q. So as far as the bomb is concerned, what shall we

    2 conclude? Do you remember or do not you remember?

    3 A. I think he did throw that bomb.

    4 Q. With any degree of certainty or with a reservation?

    5 A. With a reservation.

    6 Q. Another incident in Vitez. On 26th June, 1992, members

    7 of the BH army from Vitez murdered Boznera Vitza and

    8 Shunka Narkov and whose bodies were buried and recovered

    9 after 45 days. Do you know anything about that?

    10 A. Yes, I do remember that case.

    11 Q. What do you know about it?

    12 A. I know that there were -- the intention was to accuse

    13 the TO troops. I think that the Territorial Defence

    14 troops did not do that. I think it was rather a

    15 settlement of old scores between Croats.

    16 Q. So it is again the scheme of Croats against Croats

    17 violence. On 10th September, 1992, members of the BH

    18 army from Vitez were guilty of robbery and later murder

    19 of Plavcic Iva, do you know anything about that?

    20 A. Yes, I do.

    21 Q. What?

    22 A. The perpetrators were not TO troops. First of all, we

    23 did not know who the perpetrators were. Later that was

    24 discovered and that act has been unanimously condemned

    25 by everyone in Vitez. At that time there was even

  14. 1 co-operation with the Croats. Since I am now working in

    2 the Ministry of the Interior, a few days ago I received

    3 information of the sentence brought against two members,

    4 Bosniaks who were guilty of that murder, who committed

    5 that murder. That act had no justification whatsoever

    6 at that time, although at that time we did not know who

    7 these people were. We had our ideas. The last

    8 suspicions have only now been dispersed.

    9 Q. After five years?

    10 A. I received the verdict, I think, 20 days ago.

    11 Q. Do you remember an event which took place on the same

    12 day, the 10th September, 1992, when members of the then

    13 Territorial Defence, later the BH army, killed Ivica

    14 Stojak commander of the HVO from Travnik?

    15 A. Yes, I do.

    16 Q. Were the killers arrested?

    17 A. I do not know anything about that.

    18 Q. And in your municipality that murder of the HVO

    19 commander from Travnik, did it have any effect? Did it

    20 have an impact at that time?

    21 A. In my testimony I said that there was constant tension

    22 in our area, in those days, and I cannot recall exact

    23 the dates and the details; but after such incidents

    24 soldiers of the HVO were frequently making trouble, on

    25 top of the trouble they had been making before.

  15. 1 Q. Mr. Djidic, but on several occasions, until now you

    2 mentioned that BH army members never did anything

    3 against HVO troops or Croats?

    4 A. Yes, I did say that, and I am prepared to reiterate that

    5 now. But when I spoke in my testimony I spoke of the

    6 Vitez municipality. What we have just discussed were

    7 solitary and out of character events, uncontrolled

    8 events, which were minor compared to what the Croats

    9 were doing.

    10 Q. But there were such incidents, despite your statement of

    11 a few days ago?

    12 A. The question I was asked was: "was this done by TO

    13 members?" And I said: "no". The murder we have

    14 mentioned was committed by people in mufti, people who

    15 are not on duty.

    16 Q. But 6 Ivica Stojak was killed by members of the TO?

    17 A. Ivica Stojak was not killed on the territory of the

    18 Vitez municipality.

    19 Q. Did you have a special army in Vitez or was a part of

    20 the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    21 A. What we had in Vitez was the municipal staff of the

    22 Territorial Defence. As in every other municipality.

    23 Q. Separated from the Territorial Defence of

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina or an integral part of it?

    25 A. An integral part of it.

  16. 1 Q. Namely, maybe you did not understand me correctly, but

    2 I did not finish with this one. On 12th February, 1993,

    3 members of the BH army from Vitez killed Sasa Jurisic.

    4 Do you know anything about that?

    5 A. At the moment I cannot call.

    6 Q. Sasa Jurisic from Vitez, 12th February 1993?

    7 A. I do not remember.

    8 Q. The 15th March, 1993, in Vitez, close to the Max shop,

    9 members of the BH army threw hand grenade injuring a

    10 woman and a child and causing major material damage. Do

    11 you remember that?

    12 A. Would you please repeat the date.

    13 Q. Yes, I will. The 15th March, 1993. Shop named Max, a

    14 woman and a child wounded by hand grenade, that is not a

    15 -- not an unusual event -- not an usual event?

    16 A. I think I recall that, but I am not quite sure. If you

    17 mean the same thing that I have in mind, that hand

    18 grenade was thrown by TO members who also were not on

    19 duty at the time, but the hand grenade was thrown at a

    20 Muslim, a member of the civilian police. The hand

    21 grenade was thrown by the brothers of the policeman's

    22 wife. In fact his ex-wife, because they were divorced

    23 then. And his ex-wife and child were then wounded.

    24 That was a settlement of scores between Bosniaks, that

    25 is Muslims as far as I remember, if you have it in your

  17. 1 document. If you have these details in your document,

    2 I think the bomb was thrown on Mr.s Adnan Adilovic --

    3 I am sorry , on Mr. Adilovic and his wife.

    4 Q. But the only people wounded were a woman and a child?

    5 A. Yes, I think so.

    6 Q. Was the woman a Croat a Bosniak?

    7 A. I do not know for sure. I think it was his wife who was

    8 hurt, I am not certain.

    9 Q. Thank you. Donja Veceriska is in your municipality. Do

    10 you remember 16th March, again 1993, members of the BH

    11 army threw a hand grenade through the entrance of the

    12 HVO command. Do you remember that?

    13 A. Yes, I do.

    14 Q. Could you describe that?

    15 A. That was done by a young man intoxicated at the time.

    16 We had tried to take him into custody several times

    17 because he had tried to throw a hand grenade on

    18 policemen. I think he disarmed my own police. It was a

    19 man with an inclination to such behaviour when under the

    20 influence of alcohol. I think on that occasion nobody

    21 was hurt, at least no Croats were hurt. His house is

    22 across the road from the office of the HVO command in

    23 Donja Veceriska.

    24 Q. How would you appraise the impact of that incident on

    25 the Croat Bosniak relationship?

  18. 1 A. I did not approve of it.

    2 Q. But did it aggravate the tension?

    3 A. The tension existed before that, and the HVO was

    4 grateful to us for detaining this man.

    5 Q. All right. But the day before, again in Donja Veceriska

    6 a member of the BH army shot from infantry weapons a

    7 member of the HVO in Donja Veceriska, that is the same

    8 place, just the day before, and the same day there, the

    9 shooting of the command, members of the BH army harassed

    10 passers-by and drivers and also committed shooting,

    11 injuring several people. That happened the day before?

    12 A. I do not remember that.

    13 Q. Again in Donja Veceriska, on 24th March, eight days

    14 later, members of the BH army shot at private houses

    15 owned by Croats. Do you know anything about that?

    16 A. I do not remember any details.

    17 Q. On 10th April 1993, six days before the beginning of the

    18 conflict, in Vitez, in the vicinity of the BH army

    19 command, members of the BH army detained Sucic Ivo and

    20 Maric Slavko who were in civilian clothing and coming

    21 back from the church, members of the HVO, but off duty,

    22 they were maltreated and then released, the 10th April

    23 1993, near the command of the HVO -- near the command of

    24 the BH army?

    25 A. Yes, I do remember that. Ivo Sucic was a friend of

  19. 1 mine. I talked to him personally after that incident.

    2 That was not committed by a member of the army.

    3 I condemned that incident, and I am still against such

    4 behaviour. That particular act was committed by a

    5 Muslim who was inebriated. I think he did not even know

    6 at the time who he was quarreling with.

    7 Q. You talked about the Vitez barracks. Do you remember

    8 12th April 1993 when in the building of the police when

    9 they were headquartered, they threw a bomb and from

    10 infantry weapons attacked the building where the Vitovoe

    11 were billeted. All vehicles with HVO markings were on

    12 that day attacked from infantry weapons?

    13 A. I do not remember that.

    14 Q. In April, but that was on the next day, on 12th April,

    15 not long before the conflict again in Travnik, commander

    16 of the Vitez army barracks, Vitez army headquarters was

    17 attacked. He was disarmed and attacked by five military

    18 policeman. Do you know anything about that? Did it

    19 have an impact in Vitez?

    20 A. I do not know about that case.

    21 Q. Does the name Darko Kraljevic ring any bells? Did you

    22 hear about that case?

    23 A. No, I know who the man is but I did not hear about

    24 that.

    25 Q. On the next day, three days before the conflict, again

  20. 1 it was Darko Kraljevic, commander of the Vitez army

    2 barracks, excommander of HOS, members of the BH army

    3 attempted murder of Darko Kraljevic and his escort.

    4 They managed to run away with the member of the

    5 UNPROFOR, despite the fact that they were -- that they

    6 were ambushed. Do you know about that?

    7 A. Yes, I do remember that.

    8 Q. What do you know about that event?

    9 A. I received a telephone call from Mario Cerkez that day,

    10 and he told me, and he told me that he spoke on the

    11 walkie-talkie with Kraljevic and that after that they

    12 were disconnected. He assumed that there was trouble of

    13 some kind. He asked me to try to do something and see

    14 what was going on. I contacted the command of the

    15 brigade and told them that we should form a joint patrol

    16 with the participation of the police, members of the

    17 army and HVO, and that is what we did. The patrol went

    18 to inspect the crime scene, so to speak. They found the

    19 vehicle Kraljevic was driving and not far from the

    20 vehicle Kraljevic, and it seems to me they also found

    21 Bagrem Zolat who was Kraljevic's colleague. In any

    22 case, a commission visited the spot, found their

    23 vehicle, established that the vehicle had been shot at,

    24 but they did not know who the shooters had been.

    25 I think that is still a mystery, to this day. Kraljevic

  21. 1 had said he assumed he had been shot at by army

    2 members. After that he intensified arrests of Muslims,

    3 both civilians and troops. And at that time there were

    4 many Muslims in jail, in the school building in

    5 Dubravica, both civilians and soldiers.

    6 Q. Have you ever been in that school?

    7 A. Yes, before the war, I did -- I was, and my children

    8 went there to school.

    9 Q. I mean at the time of the event?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. So you do not know -- you did not see that scene?

    12 A. I have not, but I have reports from people who were

    13 detained there.

    14 Q. What kind of man was Darko Kraljevic, what would you say

    15 about him? What kind of unit did he have? Could you

    16 tell us more about him?

    17 A. I could speak a lot about Darko Kraljevic. I used to be

    18 his teacher. I told him how to ski and he took part in

    19 cycling contests. That was before the war, when he was

    20 still a teenager. At the time when the HOS was being

    21 established he was a rowdy character. He went to the

    22 front to fight the Chetniks. But he was surrounded by

    23 people with troubled pasts.

    24 Q. What do you mean by that?

    25 A. I mean people of shady character, people who are using

  22. 1 alcohol and drugs, and criminals. I am not saying all

    2 of them were like that.

    3 Q. What was the nickname of their unit when they abandoned

    4 the name of HOS?

    5 A. I think they changed their name to Vitozovi, which means

    6 Knights.

    7 Q. That unit was it involved in any crime, because if

    8 people had a criminal past that still does not mean that

    9 once they joined the army and were in a war that they

    10 could not have changed. What was their behaviour then?

    11 A. During the war, as far as I know from the period when

    12 I was still in Vitez, I have been attacked several times

    13 by the Vitozovi units and they were part of the HVO.

    14 Q. When were you attacked by the Vitozovi?

    15 A. On 16th April, in early morning hours when the entire

    16 territory of the municipality was under attack, the

    17 Vitozovi took part in this attack. There were other

    18 attacks in the course of the war.

    19 Q. Could you give us another date when you were attacked,

    20 specifically by the Vitozovi?

    21 A. I think they were in joint units with the HVO, and on

    22 the 18th July they participated in the attack against

    23 Stari Vitez.

    24 Q. Did you see who led the attack against Stari Vitez?

    25 A. No, I did not.

  23. 1 Q. That was an 18th July, 1993?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Have you noticed the Vitozovi specifically as one

    4 leading an attack on another occasion?

    5 A. I think that during that war the Vitozovi were sort of

    6 melted into the HVO structure.

    7 Q. Could you tell us when did that happen? When did they

    8 blend with the HVO?

    9 A. Immediately before the war.

    10 Q. What do you mean, in terms of dates?

    11 A. I think in the spring of 1993, and also in the autumn of

    12 1992, the Vitozovi would do the dirty work for the HVO

    13 authorities.

    14 Q. I asked when they were incorporated into the HVO?

    15 A. I think this was during the days of the general attack

    16 at the beginning of the war. I may not be right.

    17 Q. The beginning of the war was 16th April, 1993?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. I would like to mention another incident, if we can call

    20 it that, and ask you what you know about it and what its

    21 effects were. Namely, are you aware of the event of

    22 15th April, just before the outbreak of the conflict in

    23 Vitez? On 15th April, in Zenica the commander of the

    24 HVO of Zenica, Zivko Totic was kidnapped as well as four

    25 members of his escort were killed, and another person

  24. 1 who happened to be a witness. What do you know about

    2 the consequences of that event, and the event itself?

    3 A. I heard about the event, I think on 16th or 17th April,

    4 when the attack on Vitez had already begun. I heard

    5 about it from HVO officers. I think the man in question

    6 was Marko Prskalo, and one of the conditions for the

    7 discontinuation of the attack on Vitez was the release

    8 of Zivko Totic from detention, but Vitez had absolutely

    9 nothing to do with his arrest.

    10 Q. What about the army of the H, what did it have to do

    11 with this kidnapping?

    12 A. I am not aware of it. To this day, I do not know who

    13 was behind it.

    14 Q. So you did not hear that the Mujahedin foreigners from

    15 Arab countries had kidnapped Zivko Totic and addressed a

    16 letter to the HVO command demanding the release of their

    17 own comrades Mujahadin, in return?

    18 A. No, I did not hear of that. I think Prskalo said it was

    19 the army who had captured Totic.

    20 Q. But the Mujahedin were part of the army?

    21 A. In a sense, yes.

    22 Q. So it was the army after all?

    23 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, your Honour, I object to the last

    24 comment. I object to Mr. Nobilo's last comment about

    25 "So, it is the army after all". That is Mr. Nobilo's

  25. 1 conclusion. That was not a question and that was not

    2 the witness' answer. I move to strike that comment and

    3 I object to his comments of that regard.

    4 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, after the witness, having given a

    5 different answer several times my question was "So, it

    6 was the army after all" and the witness answered "yes",

    7 so it was a question. There are many such questions

    8 that contain the answer in them, used by the Prosecutor,

    9 too.

    10 MR. KEHOE: I think a review of the transcript will indicate

    11 that that is not the case. It is on the screen right

    12 now "So it was the army after all", as he is about to

    13 move into the next conclusion. That was not a question

    14 that was Mr. Nobilo's statement. The point of the

    15 matter, Mr. President, is I object to Mr. Nobilo's

    16 editoralising on the witness' answer. The questions are

    17 fine editorialisings the Prosecution objects to. That

    18 is all.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I agree. Mr. Nobilo must limit his

    20 comments. I would like to say to you, Mr. Kehoe, that

    21 you must also commit yourself not to make any comments.

    22 Let me point this out to you. Let me remind you in the

    23 examination and cross-examination either of you some

    24 time make implicit or explicit comments because each of

    25 you have a strategy you are following. Be tolerant to

  26. 1 one another and attempt to limit your comments,

    2 Mr. Nobilo. Proceed, please. If you are continuing with

    3 this same incident you can end now -- you finish your

    4 questions otherwise we will take our break now. Have

    5 you completed that incident, in inverted commas, that of

    6 that date?

    7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, since the witness mentioned the

    8 name of Marko Prskalo from whom he received the

    9 information I have only one question regarding this

    10 person then that will complete my comment on this

    11 question. Thank you.

    12 Mr. Djidic, Marko Prskalo, when did he tell you

    13 this, on what day?

    14 A. I think it was 16th or 17th of April, 1993.

    15 Q. Was he acting in the capacity of a negotiator with you?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Was Pilicic with him?

    18 A. Zoran Pilicic was him, yes.

    19 Q. They were assistant parliamentarians of General Blaskic;

    20 is that correct?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Do you know what happened to them when they returned

    23 from their mission as parliamentarians and were entering

    24 the Vitez hotel?

    25 A. I heard about it, about the wounding. I do not know

  27. 1 exactly who was wounded, was it Marko or Zoran.

    2 Q. So you heard that a sniper from Stari Vitez had hit the

    3 two parliamentarians when they were entering the Vitez

    4 hotel where the headquarters of the command was

    5 situated?

    6 A. Yes, I heard that at the next day's joint meeting.

    7 Q. Did you give the orders to shoot at the

    8 parliamentarians?

    9 A. No, I did not.

    10 Q. Did you know that they would be shot at?

    11 A. No, I did not.

    12 Q. When you learnt about it, did you start proceedings to

    13 investigate the case?

    14 A. I did investigate, and I was given assurances that it

    15 was not a sniper that had shot at them; and I told the

    16 HVO side and the UNPROFOR that it was quite feasible

    17 that the gentlemen who was hit was hit by a stray

    18 bullet, which may have even been fired from the position

    19 of the church. There are no -- there is no reliable

    20 evidence that it was a sniper, and I am sure that a

    21 sniper was not operating. And if the shot had come from

    22 army positions I can assert that the soldiers told me

    23 that they had not fired. The person may have been hit

    24 by an ordinary rifle shot, because, from the army

    25 positions to that spot where the gentlemen was hit, the

  28. 1 distance is no more than 150 to 200 metres.

    2 Q. Therefore, the entrance to the Vitez hotel was under

    3 your fire control?

    4 A. Yes, we were able to control it for a certain period of

    5 time.

    6 Q. But what is your comment to the fact that both

    7 parliamentarians were hit only 50 metres before the

    8 hotel entrance after they had come out of the meeting?

    9 A. I condemn that. I still do. I carried out an

    10 investigation and it did not produce any results.

    11 Q. Thank you. Mr. President, that would be all for now.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: We will take our break now and resume at

    13 11.45 am.

    14 (11.20 am)

    15 (Short break)

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Please bring in the accused, and the Defence,

    17 if possible.

    18 MR. NOBILO: Sorry, Mr. President, but on the transcript it

    19 said "45", so ...

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Registrar, is there a problem with the

    21 accused?

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Well, we have one mystery cleared up. The

    23 transcript did say "11.45". We can now resume

    24 Mr. Nobilo. As far as the schedule goes, where are you

    25 now, can you tell us where you go?

  29. 1 MR. NOBILO: All day.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: All day. All right, yes I understand. Since

    3 we are not taking any authority away from the

    4 Prosecutor, for that reason we give you all the time you

    5 need and we can deal with this on a more general issue

    6 at other times. All right, proceed Mr. Nobilo.

    7 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. Mr. Djidic, shall we go back to your

    8 investigation in connection with the attempted

    9 assassination of two parliamentarians Pilicic and

    10 Prskalo. In that investigation, did you take into

    11 consideration the fact that Pilicic and Prskalo were

    12 running for 50 metres to the entrance to the hotel,

    13 surrounded by UNPROFOR officers. This was an element

    14 that you took into consideration in your investigation?

    15 A. I am not familiar with the details, when and how these

    16 officers were surrounded, but I can assert that at that

    17 time an attack was going on in Stari Vitez, and these

    18 attacks went on continuously. Only exceptionally was

    19 there a lull.

    20 Q. Did you take into consideration that Pilacic and Prskalo

    21 who were running for 50 metres from the entrance of the

    22 hotel surrounded by UNPROFOR officers, that both of them

    23 were hit with two bullets each, and not one of the

    24 UNPROFOR officers was hit? Did you take that into

    25 consideration?

  30. 1 A. I did not know that.

    2 Q. And if you had known that, what would have been your

    3 conclusion? Was this a sniper or four stray bullets,

    4 not one, four?

    5 A. I do not know what my criminal police would have done.

    6 I think I was told that one of these officers was hit in

    7 the thigh, and another one from the same bullet in the

    8 arm, as far as I remember.

    9 Q. What do you mean, one bullet hit two men, one in the

    10 thigh and the other in the arm?

    11 A. That was the information that I received.

    12 Q. And your officers did not inform you that Pilacic was

    13 hit in the arm and the leg and Prskalo in the thigh and

    14 in the leg?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Let us go back for a moment to the kidnapping of the

    17 people in Zenica, do you remember any press conference

    18 on Vitez television on 15th April 1993, when Blaskic and

    19 Kordic participated in connection with that kidnapping?

    20 A. I did not watch that programme.

    21 Q. On the 15th April 1993, the day before the beginning of

    22 the conflict, was Dzemal Merdan from Zenica at your

    23 headquarters, he was deputy commander of the Third Corp?

    24 A. I do not recall that.

    25 Q. Thank you. From the church to the hotel you said that

  31. 1 the bullet may have strayed from the church. What is

    2 the distance?

    3 A. I think it is 500 to 600 metres.

    4 Q. In your testimony you mentioned that General Blaskic was

    5 wearing a black uniform when the unit was being lined up

    6 by Cerkez?

    7 A. I think so.

    8 Q. Among Croats and Catholics, does black clothing have any

    9 other meaning apart from the interpretation that you

    10 gave in your testimony?

    11 A. My neighbours, Croats, before the war, would wear black

    12 suits when there was a death in the family.

    13 Q. And when you would go to a funeral, what kind of

    14 clothing would one wear on that day?

    15 A. The immediate family would usually wear black suits.

    16 Q. And not others?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Talking about the oath, do you recall the text of the

    19 oath that had to be taken?

    20 A. I do not remember the exact wording, but this oath was

    21 made for Herceg-Bosnia.

    22 Q. Can you describe what it was like? Would somebody read

    23 it and others repeat? And who did one make that solemn

    24 statement to? What was the ceremony like?

    25 A. I think it was Mario Cerkez who would read the text, and

  32. 1 the fighters, the soldiers would repeat after him.

    2 Q. Would he report to anyone? Would he address anyone?

    3 Would he salute anyone?

    4 A. I think that Mario would report to Kordic. I am not

    5 quite sure of that now.

    6 Q. Was Kordic in civilian clothes, or in uniform?

    7 A. I think he was wearing a uniform.

    8 Q. You spoke to us about the speech made by Kordic and

    9 others, and you said that at the time you could not

    10 believe that anyone could say anything like that, and if

    11 anyone else had told you about it you would not have

    12 believed him. Have I remembered well what you said?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Will you tell us when this swearing in took place?

    15 A. It was in the summer of 1992. I do not recall the exact

    16 date.

    17 Q. And your disbelief, to remind you, was regarding the

    18 division of peoples within a multi ethnic Bosnia. Did

    19 I understand you well?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. You said you did not believe. But what had happened in

    22 Bosnia by then, what happened with the Serbs and the

    23 attack on Sarajevo? Had not the separation already

    24 started, and the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina? Was there

    25 not bloodshed already before then?

  33. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Who was fighting whom?

    3 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina was attacked by the Serbs.

    4 Q. Did the domestic, the Bosnian Serbs participate in this?

    5 A. I think they did, as well as Serbs from Vitez because in

    6 the course of 1992 they would go somewhere.

    7 Q. How, then, do you explain your statement that if

    8 somebody had told you you would not have believed that

    9 the people would separate like this when interethnic

    10 conflicts had already broken out?

    11 A. In Vitez and throughout central Bosnia there were not

    12 many Serbs. The Croats and Muslims had lived together

    13 for centuries. I have already spoken about that life

    14 that we had together; and I did not believe that the

    15 words such as those uttered by Kordic, that this was

    16 historically Croatian land, and that it will be Croatian

    17 land. I could not believe that there were such people,

    18 and I said I would not have believed anyone if they had

    19 told me about it, if I personally had not heard and seen

    20 it on the spot.

    21 Q. I did not quite understand what troubled you when Kordic

    22 said it was a historically Croatian land. Did he say it

    23 was exclusively the land of Croats, or is the problem

    24 that you do not accept that Bosnia is also historically

    25 Croatian land?

  34. 1 A. I was troubled because he was talking about historical

    2 Croatian lands, when it is well known that Muslims were

    3 living there, too; and I think even before the Croats.

    4 Q. Will you tell me if you can remember, with precision,

    5 did he say that this was the land of Croats only, or did

    6 he say it was Croatian land?

    7 A. I do not remember.

    8 Q. On a number of occasions in answer to a question from

    9 the Prosecution, you said that the headquarters of

    10 General Blaskic's command was at the Vitez hotel. My

    11 question is: do you know when General Blaskic set up his

    12 headquarters, his command, at the Vitez hotel?

    13 A. I do not know the exact date. I know that for a time he

    14 was in Kruscica, in the Lovac Hotel. And later he moved

    15 to the hotel in Vitez.

    16 Q. So you do not even know approximately what time of year

    17 it was when he moved?

    18 A. I think it was in the summer of 1992.

    19 Q. Would you be surprised to learn that it was in Christmas

    20 1992?

    21 A. For Christmas?

    22 Q. His headquarters not the local HVO command?

    23 A. I would not be surprised.

    24 Q. You said that Kruscica was a predominantly Muslim or

    25 Croat?

  35. 1 A. Predominantly Muslim locality.

    2 Q. You said that you spoke to Colonel Blaskic by phone in

    3 connection with the six policemen detained in Kruscica.

    4 Did you call Mr. Blaskic or did he call you?

    5 A. At 6 o'clock in the morning I called up Mr. Blaskic.

    6 Q. Did you have another conversation?

    7 A. Yes, there was another conversation, when I was called

    8 up by Pasko.

    9 Q. But with Colonel Blaskic did you have a conversation

    10 before that?

    11 A. Yes, I spoke to him about 3 o'clock.

    12 Q. The threat that was made, was that during the

    13 conversation at 6 o'clock, or at 3 am?

    14 A. I was threatened both at 3 and at 6.

    15 Q. By Colonel Blaskic?

    16 A. No, by Pasko at 3 and by Colonel Blaskic in the morning

    17 at 6, and I think there was another threat during the

    18 night.

    19 Q. By whom?

    20 A. By Pasko.

    21 Q. Let me try to put to you a question to organise a little

    22 bit your testimony. When did you become a member of the

    23 command of the Territorial Defence?

    24 A. That was at the end of May 1992.

    25 Q. What position did you have?

  36. 1 A. I was chief of staff.

    2 Q. Who was your superior?

    3 A. The commander was Hakija Cenjic.

    4 Q. Can you tell me who were the members of the command,

    5 what positions they had, and their names?

    6 A. Hakija was the commander. I was the chief of staff.

    7 The person in charge of security I think was Sigred

    8 Avdic. Mobilisation and general affairs, Senadar

    9 Karsavic. Commander of the military police, I think,

    10 was Anto Korumdjija. Assistant for logistics was

    11 Muhamed Patkovic.

    12 Q. That was the complete TO staff?

    13 A. I am not sure I have mentioned everyone.

    14 Q. In the course of 1992, were there any changes, personnel

    15 changes, within this group of people?

    16 A. I think there were.

    17 Q. What were the changes?

    18 A. I think Mario Palanez left and did not work for the

    19 staff any more. He is the one with the notebook, Eniz

    20 Varupa, Eniz Varupa, and I do not recall any more

    21 changes.

    22 Q. But we met him in the military police of the HVO,

    23 I think?

    24 A. Korumdjija left the TO staff, I am not sure, but I think

    25 this was in August or September of 1992. I am not

  37. 1 certain about that.

    2 Q. Tell me, please, what was the responsibility of the TO

    3 staff in this period of 1992, if we can be more

    4 specific. What were its main tasks?

    5 A. The main tasks of the TO star was to send people to the

    6 front, to form regional detachments, or rather to form

    7 an army.

    8 Q. What about the arming, did that go through the staff?

    9 What was the method of arming the TO in 1992 or of the

    10 Bosniaks in Vitez, because we said there was the

    11 Patriotic League as well?

    12 A. We armed ourselves in every conceivable manner.

    13 Q. Will you please describe the most typical ways of the

    14 procurement of weapons in 1992?

    15 A. I do not know all the details, since I joined the army,

    16 or rather the TO in May. But I do know that most of the

    17 armaments was taken from the warehouse in Slemeni, both

    18 Croats and Muslims took those weapons. This was a joint

    19 operation.

    20 Q. How much weaponry was there?

    21 A. In that warehouse, the weaponry was housed, of the

    22 Territorial Defence, from the whole of central Bosnia.

    23 A part of the weapons was destroyed because members of

    24 the former JNA had blown up those warehouses. And there

    25 were many damaged weapons that were later repaired.

  38. 1 Later on --

    2 Q. Can you tell us roughly how many pieces there were?

    3 A. I would not like to engage in any guess work.

    4 Q. Was it more or less than 5000?

    5 A. I think there was more than 5000.

    6 Q. So other forms of arming?

    7 A. One of the methods was purchase of weapons from Croats,

    8 a private organisation that was set up in Vitez, it is

    9 called Vitez trade, at the time sold weapons. That is

    10 something that I heard about. I personally did not

    11 purchase any weapons from this company.

    12 Q. What did you hear about them? Where did they get those

    13 weapons from?

    14 A. I think it was coming from Croatia, or via Croatia.

    15 Q. Tell me: was there any individual procurement in

    16 addition to the methods you have mentioned?

    17 A. Yes, there was.

    18 Q. Where did individuals get their weapons from?

    19 A. By purchasing them.

    20 Q. Where?

    21 A. Both in Vitez and in the surrounding localities, and

    22 especially from people who were coming from those places

    23 which had been captured by the Chetniks.

    24 Q. Those people coming from places captured by Chetniks,

    25 how did they have weapons?

  39. 1 A. The people of the Jajce, in particular, when Jajce fell,

    2 they brought with them a great deal of weapons, and one

    3 could buy them for -- at a very low price.

    4 Q. The TO had its logistics, of course. Did the TO later

    5 on procure any weapons?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Where from?

    8 A. From those refugees, some from the Croats, and so forth.

    9 Q. Did you send your representatives to do the purchasing

    10 in Croatia?

    11 A. I did not.

    12 Q. Did any weapons reach you from the government in

    13 Sarajevo?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. So, in 1992 you have a TO staff. Who is among your

    16 superiors from the competent political structures? To

    17 whom are you answerable in Vitez?

    18 A. Superior to me was the municipal, or the regional staff

    19 in Zenica.

    20 Q. In terms of structure yes, they were superior to you but

    21 were you really accountable to any executive or

    22 political body in Vitez?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Who was that?

    25 A. First the municipal staff was accountable to the mayor,

  40. 1 and later, when the functions were separated and Croats

    2 and Muslims worked independently of each other, then my

    3 superior was the President of the War Presidency in

    4 Vitez, on the political side. And, again, the regional

    5 staff in Zenica.

    6 Q. The War Presidency existed in 1993, but in the end of

    7 1992 were you answerable to the coordination council for

    8 the protection of Muslims?

    9 A. Yes, both to the council and to the War Presidency,

    10 which also existed in 1992, or maybe I am confused here,

    11 but the council did exist.

    12 Q. Were you answerable to them as a political body?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. You referred to the staff of the Territorial Defence of

    15 Vitez. Who was your superior, the regional staff of

    16 Zenica, you said?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Who was superior to the regional staff?

    19 A. There was the republican staff.

    20 Q. Who was the TO republic staff answerable to?

    21 A. To the presidency.

    22 Q. Directly?

    23 A. I think, yes.

    24 Q. Did the Minister of Defence in the government of the

    25 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina have any authority?

  41. 1 A. I do not understand the question.

    2 Q. You said that the Republic staff was answerable to the

    3 presidency. I am asking you: did any power belong to

    4 the Minister of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    5 A. I think so.

    6 Q. So did you answer directly to the presidency, or to the

    7 Minister of Defence?

    8 A. I do not know who the republic staff of the TO was

    9 directly answerable to.

    10 Q. You named members of the staff, and their functions,

    11 which were lower forms of organisation than the

    12 municipal staff?

    13 A. There were regional detachments.

    14 Q. Could you enumerate them?

    15 A. The municipal staff then had 11 regional detachments.

    16 Q. Could you enumerate them?

    17 A. I can try. That was the regional detachment of Vitez,

    18 regional detachment of Bila, regional detachment of

    19 Ahimici, of Kruscica, of Poculica, of Preocica, regional

    20 detachment of Novaci, and I think there was a regional

    21 detachment of Donja Veceriska.

    22 Q. These regional detachments, how many conscripts did they

    23 have? How many soldiers?

    24 A. I do not know the exact figure.

    25 Q. Can I please ask the usher to take these documents from

  42. 1 me? (Handed). Please put this on the ELMO, then we

    2 will read it out together.

    3 So, can we improve the contrast a little bit?

    4 Sir, in the upper left corner there is a stamp which

    5 says "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina municipal staff of

    6 the Territorial Defence number 05-2201/92" the date is

    7 15th August 1992 "Vitez". Numerical signs of the

    8 commanding units of the municipal staff of defence of

    9 Vitez, communicates to the security. The word

    10 "security", is given in handwriting in the right

    11 corner. We communicate to you the numerical signs of

    12 the command and units of the municipal staff of defence

    13 of Vitez. Then it says defence staff of Vitez, number

    14 8179/1. Security or protection staff squadron 8178/12.

    15 Then detachment of TO. It says detachment of Visoko

    16 Hakija Djellvic. Then follows TO detachment in brackets

    17 battalion Vitez. Then 8444-3 Dubravica; H44-4,

    18 Poculica; 8444-5 Busovaca; 844-6 Han Kompanija; 844-7

    19 Bila; 844-8 Stari Vitez; 844-9 Kolonija; 8444-10

    20 Kruscica; 8444-11 Vraniska. Anti-sabotage platoon 8647.

    21 Liaison unit 9510/11. Logistic space 9215. Battery of

    22 LAB and anti-aircraft defence 8957. Signed chief of

    23 staff for OMPP Causevic Zenada."

    24 Mr. Djidic, do you recall this document?

    25 A. I do remember this document. I do not remember the

  43. 1 figures, but I roughly remember.

    2 Q. Who was the Zenada Causevic who signed this. It says

    3 above the signature OMPP, what does it mean?

    4 A. It means assistant for organisational and administrative

    5 affairs.

    6 Q. Was she discharging this function?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Do you recognise this stamp as yours, maybe you can see

    9 it on the ELMO, the stamp in the upper left corner, was

    10 that how your system of numbers and signs looked? You

    11 can see it on the original?

    12 A. I cannot see it clearly, but I think that is it.

    13 Q. Can you tell me, the protection and staff platoon at

    14 that time, how many soldiers did it have?

    15 A. I do not know.

    16 Q. Tell me in terms of structure, a battalion, how many

    17 soldiers did it have?

    18 A. Those were units of 200 to 400 soldiers.

    19 Q. What does it mean in terms of TV structure, a

    20 detachment?

    21 A. The number of soldiers varied in such units. A

    22 detachment as such could not be qualified in terms of

    23 numbers, and not unlike the way it was in the previous

    24 army, where there was particular number of soldiers in a

    25 battalion, a platoon a detachment. The number varied

  44. 1 from place to place.

    2 Q. But a detachment was envisaged as part of the TO

    3 structure, and what was the range of variation in your

    4 territory?

    5 A. There were detachments with 30 soldiers, and even less

    6 depending on the density of population, and some

    7 detachments, on the other hand, had up to 100 people.

    8 Q. Tell me, the liaison unit, who it was headed by?

    9 A. I do not know.

    10 Q. Do you know what kind of material and resources were at

    11 the disposal of the communications unit -- the signals

    12 unit, sorry?

    13 A. I think they had the old RUP3.

    14 Q. What is that?

    15 A. It is a radio transmitter receiver, Radio 12 and Radio

    16 30. We also had hand-operated radio stations, mainly

    17 used by the military police and the units on the front

    18 line.

    19 Q. I would like, Mr. Usher, to put up a map on this board.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: First, Mr. Nobilo, first we have to settle

    21 what is to become with this previous document.

    22 I suppose it will be handled the same way, since you did

    23 not indicate the source. Therefore, we will ask the

    24 Registrar to mark it as D20.

    25 MR. NOBILO: I agree with you, Mr. President, but I should

  45. 1 like to draw to your attention the fact that the witness

    2 has confirmed both the stamp and the authenticity of

    3 this document, and the source is the staff of the

    4 Territorial Defence of Vitez.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: We have already had this discussion and the

    6 Trial Chamber decided that -- it is not because in his

    7 statement the witness has authenticated a document which

    8 means that that is enough. If you officially state

    9 where you get it from it is not the stamp which

    10 identifies it, but at the end of the day it is the

    11 source of the document itself. That has to be

    12 identified. This was not indicated, I suppose that the

    13 document will remain with the same status as the

    14 previous ones, going from 15 to 20. Do you agree with

    15 that, then?

    16 MR. NOBILO: In that case, we reserve our right to identify

    17 it at a later stage.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We can now move to the following

    19 document.

    20 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I should now like to ask the

    21 witness ...

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps we could give you some kind of device

    23 that would allow you to be close to the map and ask your

    24 question without having to go through complicated

    25 gymnastics.

  46. 1 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. Nobilo is a famous athlete, your Honour,

    2 I think he can do it.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Okay, if we could help though. Mr. Kehoe, do

    4 you wish to make an objection? This is the feeling

    5 I think I have here. Mr. Kehoe, go ahead.

    6 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, are we going to get a copy of

    7 this map?

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Well, I would suppose so. Mr. Nobilo, do not

    9 you have a copy of the map for the Prosecution? Do you

    10 not have a copy of this map for the Prosecutor?

    11 MR. NOBILO: Yes, I do, Mr. President. I have only one copy,

    12 and we can later make copies for everyone. We are

    13 offering this as evidence. This is a military map, but

    14 for next time we shall try to provide copies. This is a

    15 map --

    16 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, I cannot hear Mr. Nobilo

    17 because he is far from the microphone.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: We have just identified this map. It comes

    19 from headquarters, is that what you said? Be more

    20 specific. You obtained this map from headquarters or?

    21 It should be indicated somewhere. You did not make the

    22 map so I think you can simply read. Tell us, Mr. Nobilo,

    23 where this map comes from. Go ahead.

    24 MR. NOBILO: So, this is a map of -- made by the Yugoslavia

    25 People's Army on a scale of 1: 50,000, which was widely

  47. 1 used in all of the former Yugoslavia and it could be

    2 found in more or less all the staffs of the Territorial

    3 Defence and units of the Yugoslav People's Army.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, as regards the identification I do

    5 not think there would be any objection to it being an

    6 exhibit. There is a problem because you do not have it

    7 and I think you have to have it.

    8 MR. KEHOE: That is the problem, Mr. President. With all due

    9 respect to counsel I would like a copy so I could follow

    10 along with this cross examination.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: This will now be admitted as an exhibit, but

    12 you have to continue the cross-examination. I do not

    13 completely agree with you, Mr. Kehoe. It will be on the

    14 ELMO. As regards with your question you have said in

    15 order to continue this cross-examination you need it to

    16 follow. You can follow the way we are. However,

    17 I think if you are suggesting that you have a right to

    18 reply later on after the cross-examination, it means

    19 that any possible right to reply means that you are

    20 going to also have the map. If there is only one copy

    21 then the Defence must lend it to the Prosecution.

    22 Mr. Nobilo, I think we have completed with that

    23 incident. Let us not waste any more time. We are

    24 wasting a lot of time, please. It is settled. It is an

    25 exhibit. It has been accepted as such. You can have it

  48. 1 for your reply. Now you may continue the -- you can

    2 follow the cross-examination on the monitor the way all

    3 of us are doing. That is the end of this incident.

    4 Mr. Nobilo go on. Mr. Kehoe, we have to go forward. It

    5 is 25 after 12. We have another half a day. There are

    6 questions for the judges, there is a reply. That is

    7 enough. The map is here. Everybody can see it.

    8 Mr. Nobilo, please continue with your cross-examination.

    9 Go ahead.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. I suggest, perhaps

    11 that the Prosecutor approach, too, and be present.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: That is a good suggestion which could have

    13 been made immediately, we would have saved 10 minutes.

    14 Gentlemen, go ahead.

    15 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Djidic, do you know this -- are you familiar

    16 with this type of --

    17 MR. HAYMAN: Our colleagues need to hear the translation.

    18 If we can have a moment to get everyone outfitted.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, yes, that is right.

    20 MR. NOBILO: Are you familiar with this type of map?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. In your work, did you use this type of map?

    23 A. Yes, I did.

    24 Q. You told us the names of the detachments from 1992. Can

    25 you tell us the command positions of those detachments

  49. 1 by indicating them with a sign of some sort, the village

    2 where they were, so that we can have an idea of how they

    3 were distributed, the detachments they came under the

    4 command of your TO staff. You are familiar with this

    5 system so will you please explain what exactly you are

    6 indicating. So first of all the headquarters of the

    7 Territorial Defence staff?

    8 A. Here (Indicates).

    9 Q. Can we call it STO? Where is the Vitez battalion, the

    10 command post of the Vitez battalion?

    11 A. The Vitez battalion, at that time, and the volunteer

    12 Vitez detachment were at Visoko.

    13 Q. But where was their command?

    14 A. In Kruscica.

    15 Q. Will you please indicate Kruscica? So that was the

    16 detachment of Vitez "O" standing for Odred and "V" for

    17 Vitez. You said there was a battalion, too, which came

    18 under this command?

    19 A. I am not sure.

    20 Q. Very well, can you indicate the other detachments that

    21 you listed? For the benefit of the transcript Bila

    22 detachment, so that is Bila, that is another detachment

    23 there. What was the next, the one Dubravica, where is

    24 that? So we will mark it with a circle. A circle

    25 indicating "O" for Odred and underlining the place of

  50. 1 the -- underlining the name of the place. The next

    2 detachment Tolovici, a circle, underlining the name of

    3 the place, detachment Ahimici, we are underlining the

    4 name Ahimici and marking it with a circle. Next. Can

    5 I help you, tell me the name?

    6 A. Detachment Donja Veceriska.

    7 Q. So we are underlining the place and marking it with a

    8 circle.

    9 A. Next the Dubravica detachment.

    10 Q. We will underline the word Dubravica and mark the

    11 position with a circle. Let us look at the list. Han

    12 Kompanija that is the Dubravica detachment. We have

    13 marked that. What about Poculica? We underline the

    14 word Poculica and we mark it with a circle. Bila, we

    15 have identified. Kolonija?

    16 A. Is here (Indicates). It was in town. So Kolonija

    17 detachment.

    18 Q. What about Vraniska?

    19 A. We underline the word Vraniska and we mark it with a

    20 circle.

    21 Q. You have listed some other, other detachments, I think,

    22 can you remember them? Is it possible, please,

    23 Mr. Registrar, to go back to the statement of Mr. Djidic

    24 when he enumerated the detachments. Can we look that up

    25 in the transcript, please?

  51. 1 THE REGISTRAR: The names are mispronounced, I am afraid.

    2 MR. NOBILO: In any event, these detachments that you

    3 mentioned in 1992, did they remain unchanged? Can you

    4 tell us for how long this system was in effect, until

    5 what date?

    6 A. This system lasted, I think, until the autumn of 1992.

    7 Q. What month roughly?

    8 A. When the brigade was formed.

    9 Q. Will you tell us roughly the month?

    10 A. I think it was November.

    11 Q. Therefore, can we write on this map, November 1992,

    12 until November 1992, can we put that?

    13 A. Yes, we can.

    14 Q. Mr. President, I would like to tender this map as

    15 evidence if there is no objection from my learned

    16 colleague?

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Your colleagues have expressed reservations

    18 which were indicated, for the time being the Tribunal

    19 has now decided that this map will be an exhibit and

    20 asks before any reply is given that copies be

    21 distributed, if the Prosecution needs it of course.

    22 Turning to the Prosecution we are admitting this map as

    23 D21, which the Registrar will hold. Can everybody sit

    24 down now. You do not need everyone to be standing up

    25 now, Mr. Nobilo?

  52. 1 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, in this situation we have only a

    2 single map marked in that way. Can we have it copied in

    3 collaboration with the Registry, because we cannot have

    4 the other copied marked like this, only copied.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. For the time being we will make copies

    6 of that map, and I think that should be enough.

    7 Proceed, Mr. Nobilo.

    8 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Djidic, the district staff of Territorial

    9 Defence of Zenica, who was the commander in 1992, in the

    10 period up to November 1992 that we have been talking

    11 about?

    12 A. The commander was Mr. Dzemal Merdan.

    13 Q. Who was the deputy?

    14 A. I think the deputy was Vinko Barisic.

    15 Q. Who were the members of the regional staff of TO Zenica?

    16 A. I am not sure.

    17 Q. Can you tell us, from which municipalities the regional

    18 staff of Zenica united, which municipal staffs the

    19 regional staff covered?

    20 A. Zepce, Vitez, Busovaca, Novi Travnik, Travnik, Bugojno,

    21 Gornji Vakuf. I do not know if I have left anything

    22 out.

    23 Q. Zenica?

    24 A. Yes, of course Zenica.

    25 Q. 6 Kaknjo?

  53. 1 A. I am not sure about Kaknjo.

    2 Q. Zavidovici?

    3 A. I do not know.

    4 Q. Maglaj?

    5 A. I think not. I think Maglaj was not included.

    6 Q. Tesani?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Donji Vakuf?

    9 A. I think so.

    10 Q. In the Vitez municipality and of course throughout

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina what were the various forms of

    12 obligations that existed, military and other

    13 obligations, namely every man had to be either in the

    14 JNA, in the TO or in some other units. Can you give us

    15 a list of these obligations, linked to the war?

    16 A. There were military obligations, and work obligations.

    17 Q. Was there an obligation to provide material resources?

    18 A. I think there was.

    19 Q. What did the work obligation mean? When did somebody

    20 come under this obligation as opposed to the military

    21 obligation? How was it decided who would come under

    22 which?

    23 A. This depended from one case to the next. In 1992, there

    24 were very many people who, at the same time, were

    25 members of the TO or the HVO, but who were working in

  54. 1 factories.

    2 Q. Of course, because this was on a voluntary basis, more

    3 or less. But tell us, what were the legal requirements

    4 for somebody to join some kind of a labour platoon? Did

    5 this have to do with age?

    6 A. Yes. It had to do with qualifications. It depended on

    7 the skills of each individual.

    8 Q. So his military capacities were not considered?

    9 A. There were able bodied men who were working in

    10 factories.

    11 Q. Were they people who were incapable of doing military

    12 service but who were assigned certain other duties?

    13 A. Yes, there were.

    14 Q. Were there any kind of organisations for people who had

    15 these work obligations? Were there any work platoons?

    16 A. They would engage in their regular duties in the

    17 factories.

    18 Q. For example, for land reclamation, was this done by the

    19 army or by these working detachments?

    20 A. Before the war we did not have any such reclamation.

    21 Q. I am talking about the war?

    22 A. Well, that was a different matter.

    23 Q. Who engaged in these activities?

    24 A. I am familiar with the situation in old Vitez, Stari

    25 Vitez, and in Stari Vitez I had members of a working

  55. 1 platoon, and the civilian -- Civil Defence, who would

    2 engage in land reclamation, or rather most frequently in

    3 burying the dead.

    4 Q. Tell me, this working platoon, did it organisationally

    5 come under the Civil Defence or under some other

    6 institution?

    7 A. It came under the Civil Defence.

    8 Q. Could you define, with greater precision, what Civil

    9 Defence was in the former Yugoslavia and Bosnia

    10 Herzegovina?

    11 A. The Civil Defence had, as its task, to protect the

    12 civilian population, by organising Civil Defence

    13 measures which consisted of care for the population,

    14 protection from fire and floods, earthquakes, and

    15 protection of the civilian population in war time,

    16 involving evacuation and shelters, for the civilian

    17 population, and also earth works, and work on the land,

    18 on the earth.

    19 Q. Were plans of evacuation of the population prepared?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Are you familiar in any detail with the plans for Vitez,

    22 for instance? Where was the civilian population to seek

    23 shelter in case of an attack?

    24 A. The plan was that they should go to the basement of

    25 buildings, to the cellars, and outside the colony the

  56. 1 civilian population would go to private shelters and

    2 shelters that we made. In the Vitez municipality we

    3 made joint shelters, together with the Croats. In my

    4 village we built a shelter together with the Croats.

    5 Q. Your village is?

    6 A. Buhine Kuce a part of Sivrino Selo. It is in between

    7 Sivrino Selo and Buhine Kuce.

    8 Q. Can this shelter be considered a public shelter, as

    9 opposed to the others?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Were there public shelters in Vitez?

    12 A. I do not recall. Every cellar was used as a shelter.

    13 Q. You mentioned yesterday that there was an air raid on

    14 Vitez?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Tell me, what happened with the Defences? Were they

    17 combined with the HVO? Can you explain how the

    18 organisation worked?

    19 A. The air defence was joint. It was a battery of anti-air

    20 defences, and the leader was a Croat, and the

    21 composition was ethnically mixed. This battery was

    22 formed in the factory even before the war, and it

    23 operated together during 1991 and 1992. I do not know

    24 exactly for how long.

    25 Q. Tell me, this anti-air defence, was it linked with the

  57. 1 anti-air defences in other municipalities?

    2 A. I think not.

    3 Q. Mr. President, if I may tender a document, with the help

    4 of the usher, please. On the ELMO please.

    5 A. Will I get a reward for being good? I am just joking.

    6 I apologise. Of course that is how I understood it.

    7 Q. I should like to read the next document. In the left

    8 corner it says: "Municipal staff of Territorial

    9 Defence." Then there is a word handwritten, that is to

    10 me illegible. After that comes 01 through 77-2/92.

    11 Below that it says the 25th May 1992 Vitez, at the

    12 bottom of the stamp. The copy is very poor. Control

    13 and command of TO units, orders.

    14 "In view of the increasing frequency of abuse,

    15 threats and ultimatums linked to the use of Territorial

    16 Defence units by crisis staffs of local communities,

    17 other institutions and individuals, I hereby order.

    18 (1) the control and command of TO units in the

    19 territory of the Vitez municipality shall be within the

    20 jurisdiction of the Territorial Defence staff commander

    21 of Vitez.

    22 (2) a decision on the deployment of TO units shall

    23 be passed by the superior command of the district and

    24 the Republic.

    25 (3) control and command is within the framework of

  58. 1 the regional staffs by the commanders of the regional

    2 staffs through the detachment commanders.

    3 (4) the commanders of regional staffs are

    4 accountable to me for ensuring unity of control and

    5 command of all subordinate units (according to the table

    6 enclosed).

    7 (5) commanders of regional staffs are obliged to

    8 contact daily the commanders of crisis staffs of local

    9 communities and villages, and to take an active part in

    10 extending assistance in the organisation and

    11 implementation of other obligations linked to the

    12 preparation of the population for defence, such as

    13 questions of nutrition, roads, maintenance of shelters,

    14 and the like.

    15 (6) the commanders of regional staffs shall also

    16 be accountable to me for activating military police

    17 bodies as soon as possible," and then a part is

    18 illegible. Then it goes on to say "the" competences of

    19 the military police in their region. Signed TO

    20 Commander Hakija Cengic and a stamp of the TO of Vitez.

    21 Mr. Djidic, do you recognise this document?

    22 A. I do not, but I think it does come from the staff.

    23 Q. Do you remember this problem, the establishment of law

    24 and order?

    25 A. No, I do not remember. I joined the staff just then.

  59. 1 Yes, that was in May, as you said.

    2 Q. Do you recognise the signature of Hakija Cengic?

    3 A. I do not recall his signature.

    4 Q. I would like to ask the usher for another brief text of

    5 two sentences, another document. (Handed). (Pause).

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse us for a moment, please. (Pause).

    7 Mr. Nobilo, Mr. Kehoe, this private discussion was

    8 held in order to try to organise the end of this

    9 hearing, the testimony of Mr. Djidic, but tomorrow

    10 morning we are not meeting in the Blaskic case, and

    11 therefore it would be better if we would complete things

    12 this evening. It would be simply better for the

    13 witness, because otherwise he has to come back on August

    14 19th, which, in our minds, seems difficult, not

    15 difficult to organise, but the witness has been here for

    16 several days, at the disposal of the Tribunal. That is

    17 long. We are making a suggestion, it is not an order

    18 that if it were possible for you, Mr. Nobilo, we will

    19 resume at 2.30 and perhaps you could finish by 4.30.

    20 After the break we can ask the Prosecutor if he wants to

    21 exercise his right to reply and we will try to end at 6

    22 o'clock. This is what, on behalf of my colleagues and

    23 myself, we would like to first say to Mr. Nobilo, to know

    24 what you think about that. Mr. Nobilo, what is your

    25 opinion?

  60. 1 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the Defence is eager to complete

    2 the proceedings as soon as possible, perhaps more so

    3 than anyone else in this courtroom. But this witness is

    4 extremely important. He is a commander from Vitez. He

    5 is familiar with a large number of relevant facts. And

    6 unfortunately I must note that in the

    7 examination-in-chief entire areas were not mentioned.

    8 So that, basically, we are doing an

    9 examination-in-chief. We heard nothing about the

    10 strength of the TO, about the deployment of the BH army

    11 in the Lasva Valley. We have heard nothing about the

    12 relevant circumstances of the conflict that I think is

    13 necessary. These are highly relevant circumstances, and

    14 this witness is a very significant source of such

    15 circumstances; and he simply left these things out or

    16 spoke about them with insufficient precision.

    17 Therefore, this is an extremely important witness. We

    18 will do our best, but we appeal to you to give us the

    19 day to complete our cross-examination. We will leave

    20 out some questions and try to be more expedient, but he

    21 is extremely important and please bear with us.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, what opinion do you have on this

    23 issue?

    24 MR. KEHOE: Well, Mr. President, I do agree with the court's

    25 indications of the timing of this witness, and certainly

  61. 1 Mr. Djidic has been here for some time and has been at

    2 the court's disposal for a significant period of time.

    3 It would be better for him on a personal level should

    4 his examination be completed. On a separate note, your

    5 Honour, I just would like to enquire of you Mr. President

    6 based on the comment that you made about it, so that we

    7 will not meet at all tomorrow? Is that the current

    8 scheduling?

    9 JUDGE JORDA: No, we cannot meet tomorrow. It does not

    10 seem possible we have the Aleksovski case to deal with

    11 as well. We could perhaps work from 9 to 10 that seems

    12 precipitous. I suppose you exercise your right to

    13 reply. I implicitly understand you are likely to do

    14 so.

    15 MR. KEHOE: I will state that reply will be very, very, very

    16 brief. It is not going to be an extensive reply.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: All right, well then if I understand, you are

    18 extremely polite. You say -- polite to the Tribunal,

    19 say that you agree and both do not agree. All right,

    20 I suggest that we break now. We will -- at 2.30 you can

    21 resume your cross-examination. At 7.30 we will see

    22 where we are. If the witness has to come back on August

    23 19th then he will. But I will suggest that during a

    24 status conference, in closed session, we will see what

    25 this will mean for the future, and a way perhaps we

  62. 1 could organise ourselves. For the time being we will

    2 suspend the hearing, and we will resume at 2.30.

    3 (1.05 pm)

    4 (Luncheon Adjournment)






















  63. 1 (2.30 pm).

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Let us resume. Bring in the accused, please

    3 (The accused was brought in).

    4 JUDGE JORDA: (No translation).

    5 MR. NOBILO: (No translation).

    6 JUDGE JORDA: (No translation).

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Does everybody hear me now? Okay. Okay,

    8 Mr. Nobilo, do you hear me now?

    9 MR. NOBILO: Yes, I can. Thank you.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Let me repeat what I said, it was important.

    11 We are trying to end tonight.

    12 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. The Defence has eliminated six

    13 documents and lots of pages of questions. This is the

    14 last document we have. Please allocate a number to it

    15 under the same conditions as before.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: The Tribunal is very sensitive to that fact.

    17 It will be numbered under the same conditions. The

    18 Defence is very sensitive to the fact of what you are

    19 doing. So you will proceed.

    20 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Djidic, let us come back very briefly to the

    21 anti-aircraft defence.

    22 MR. NOBILO: It is not new documents, it is about old

    23 documents. Thank you.

    24 Did the anti-aircraft defence, you said it was a

    25 battery. How was the situation with the ammunition?

  64. 1 Was there enough ammunition or the JNA had confiscated

    2 it?

    3 A. Yes, there was ammunition. I do not know how much.

    4 Q. Tell me, when there was a Crisis Staff of the

    5 municipality were there Crisis Staffs of lower

    6 administrative level?

    7 A. I do not think so, not at the beginning, but then later

    8 general Crisis Staffs were formed at the level of local

    9 communities and villages.

    10 Q. I am asking you this in view of your last document, when

    11 your commander spoke of the organisation of units et

    12 cetera, you said that the 325th Hill Brigade was formed

    13 in the BH army.

    14 A. I think it was established in December 1992, perhaps

    15 November that is when its establishment began.

    16 Q. Does that mean that from the Territorial structure of TO

    17 you are shifting to the brigade organisation?

    18 A. The Territorial structure remains, and the brigade is

    19 formed as an organisational unit.

    20 Q. If I understand the military terminology correctly,

    21 detachments of the TO are more linked to individual

    22 areas, or territory, whereas the brigade should be

    23 mobile and capable of being used on any field of combat;

    24 is that correct?

    25 A. That should be so, although even TO units were used on

  65. 1 the front.

    2 Q. You were assigned the post when the 325th Hill Brigade

    3 was established. What was your function?

    4 A. I did not have any post there.

    5 Q. Never?

    6 A. Never.

    7 Q. Where was the command post of that brigade?

    8 A. It was in Poculica and in Kruscica.

    9 Q. Was there ever a headquarters of that brigade in the

    10 Fire Fighting building?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. In terms of structure, what does that brigade consist

    13 of?

    14 A. Batallion.

    15 Q. How many batallion was there in the 325th Brigade?

    16 A. I think there were three batallions.

    17 Q. Let us try to reconstruct this. Do you agree that the

    18 first battalion was in Kruscica and covered the villages

    19 of Kruscica, Vraniska, Gacice and Donja Veceriska; is

    20 that correct?

    21 A. It consisted of people coming from those villages.

    22 Q. Then let us define it more precisely. Then let us say

    23 the battalion with headquarters in Kruscica was manned

    24 by inhabitants of the Kruscica, Vraniska, Gacice and

    25 Donja Veceriska; is that correct?

  66. 1 A. Yes, that is correct.

    2 Q. Do you know how many soldiers there were in that first

    3 battalion?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Do you agree that the command post of the Second

    6 Battalion was in Stari Vitez?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Was the Stari Vitez the venue, the headquarters of any

    9 battalion?

    10 A. I do not know.

    11 Q. Tell me, was one of the batallion of that brigade

    12 headquartered in Bugojno?

    13 A. I do not think so.

    14 Q. Tell me, inhabitants of Stari Bila, Bugojno and another

    15 village, what battalion did they man. Stari Kiseljak

    16 was the last village?

    17 A. Inhabitants of Stari Kiseljak manned the detachment

    18 which was part of the headquarters, and some of them

    19 manned the brigade. I do not know where they were

    20 headquartered.

    21 Q. Was the command post situated in Poculica for soldiers

    22 coming from those villages Poculica, Sivino Selo,

    23 Pilica, Santoci, Nadioci, Ahimici and other villages?

    24 A. No. I am not sure.

    25 Q. Do you know the number of soldiers of that battalion

  67. 1 headquartered in Poculica?

    2 A. I do not know how many there were because that was at

    3 the stage when it was being established.

    4 Q. Yes, but later when it had already been in existence in

    5 January 1993, for instance, you do not know about that?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. What happens to the regional staff to have the TO in

    8 Zenica, does it remain in existence?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And tell me is any Corp established at that time?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Tell me, the Third Corp, was it headquarters in Zenica?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Tell me what units were included in that Corp?

    15 A. I do not know exactly.

    16 Q. What was the post you held in January 1993?

    17 A. I was commander of the regional staff, of the municipal

    18 staff.

    19 Q. And you do not know what units were in that Corp, could

    20 you tell us at least some of them?

    21 A. I do not know exactly, because my job involved

    22 co-operation with the regional staff of that time.

    23 I would not like to do any guessing.

    24 Q. Did you cooperate with any brigade of the Third Corp in

    25 1993?

  68. 1 A. I, as commander of the municipal staff, did not.

    2 Q. And as commander of the Defence of Stari Vitez did you

    3 cooperate in that capacity?

    4 A. No, I did not have any contact with other brigades,

    5 apart from the 325th Brigade.

    6 Q. How did you maintain contact with that brigade?

    7 A. By radio.

    8 Q. Does the word "operative group Lasva" mean anything to

    9 you?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. What is that?

    12 A. That is an operation group formed in Kaknjo with

    13 headquarters in Kaknjo.

    14 Q. Which territory did it cover?

    15 A. I believe it covered the area of Kaknjo, Busovaca and

    16 Vitez. I do not know if there were any other areas

    17 covered by it.

    18 Q. Did you -- were you part of that operative group?

    19 A. I think that 325th Brigade was part of it.

    20 Q. And units of the TO?

    21 A. I think so. I think they did.

    22 Q. But since you were part -- since you were a member of

    23 the operative group Lasva, who else was a member?

    24 A. I think Busovaca, Vitez and Kaknjo were parts of it.

    25 Q. Which brigades, apart from the TO units of these

  69. 1 municipalities you enumerated?

    2 A. Brigades of Busovaca and Vitez.

    3 Q. What was the sign of the Busovaca brigade -- sorry?

    4 A. I think it was the 333rd, but I do not know if it was

    5 part of this operative group.

    6 Q. What do you know about the operative group of Kakanj?

    7 A. The operative group Kakanj was also established, and

    8 included mainly units which were manned by refugees from

    9 Kakanj.

    10 Q. Could you enumerate some Kakanj units or units manned by

    11 Kakanj refugees?

    12 A. At that time, I think the First Kakanj Brigade, then the

    13 Seventh. I think these two brigades were joined to form

    14 the 17th brigade. I am not sure, because I was not in

    15 touch with them.

    16 Q. The First and the Seventh, where they were, Alagic

    17 commander of the first and Trucic, commander of the

    18 Seventh Brigade, where were they headquartered?

    19 A. In the barracks.

    20 Q. Which barracks?

    21 A. In Travnik.

    22 Q. So you say they were manned by refugees. Tell me one of

    23 these brigades was in your area, even before the Seventh

    24 Kakanj Brigade, is that true?

    25 A. No.

  70. 1 Q. And the 305th Krajina Brigade, was it in your area

    2 before?

    3 A. I think it was in a village towards Visoko along the

    4 highway from Zenica to Sarajevo.

    5 Q. In central Bosnia?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Travnik is also in central Bosnia?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Tell me, please, did you hear about a unit commanded by

    10 Mustafa Toporovic?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Tell me, do you know that Mujahedins were in Vitez in

    13 the 6 Cafe Ljubic in January 1993, do you know about

    14 that fact?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. You do not know anything about that?

    17 A. No, I do not.

    18 Q. Let us come back to batallion of the 325th Brigade, the

    19 only one which you cooperated with. And let us chart on

    20 the map of your memory from which villages the fighters

    21 came from, and where the command headquarters were.

    22 Mr. President, this is a map made by the JNA, the

    23 Yugoslav People's Army. So here we have a map made by

    24 the Yugoslav People's Army on a scale of 1: 50,000. It

    25 is marked Zenica 4 and it depicts Zenica and the

  71. 1 municipality of Vitez. So I would kindly ask you to try

    2 to place the 325th Brigade on this map. I shall write

    3 up here the 325th Brcko Brigade. That is how it is

    4 usually referred to. So, please, would you mark the

    5 headquarters, the command centre of this brigade on the

    6 map.

    7 Mr. Usher, perhaps we need a pointer for Mr. Djidic.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Kehoe.

    9 MR. KEHOE: Can we have some timeframe from counsel as to

    10 what month and year he is talking about. Just ask the

    11 witness what month and timeframe this is.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I sustain that objection. Mr. Nobilo,

    13 you have to specify the period.

    14 MR. NOBILO: Sir, I was asking you about the 325th Brigade.

    15 End of 1992, January 1993. In that timeframe, where was

    16 their headquarters and where were its batallion located,

    17 and from which villages they were manned. I am -- we

    18 have marked this map made by the JNA.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, be specific in your question.

    20 I know the witness must be tired as well. Be very

    21 specific in the way you are asking the questions,

    22 please.

    23 MR. NOBILO: The last -- my last remark was not a question.

    24 I am just marking the map. The mark I made was 325

    25 BBR. So, please, show us the headquarters the command

  72. 1 post of this brigade?

    2 A. Poculica and Kruscica.

    3 Q. Why are you marking two places as command posts?

    4 A. One part of the command of the brigade was in Kruscica,

    5 because the greatest part of the majority of fighters

    6 volunteers went to the front from Kruscica, and for a

    7 certain time movement was difficult due to barricades.

    8 Q. Would you agree that we make a mark on the map for the

    9 command post? For instance, with the English mark HQ

    10 for headquarters, and we shall thus mark individual

    11 places.

    12 Do you agree that fighters for the Kruscica

    13 battalion came from Kruscica, Poculica and the ...

    14 A. And other places.

    15 Q. Could you please show on the map the places from which

    16 the fighters came from?

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe?

    18 MR. KEHOE: If I may. If I just have a bit of gap between

    19 the next question. The answer of the witness and the

    20 question of Mr. Nobilo are running together.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo, once again, I know you are

    22 trying to go faster in order to satisfy the Tribunal but

    23 we have to strike an even balance.

    24 MR. HAYMAN: He is not getting any translation so he does

    25 not know when it ends. It is difficult.

  73. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Proceed.

    2 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Djidic, please mark the places which the

    3 fighters for Kruscica came from, and tell us the names

    4 of the places?

    5 A. There were members who came from Vitez from Donja

    6 Veceriska, from Gacice, from Kruscica, from Vraniska,

    7 and that is it, I think.

    8 Q. So that is it. Tell me, the headquarters in Poculica,

    9 I enumerated and you agree for the most part that the

    10 people came from Poculica and Kruscica could you mark

    11 those places on the map. First Poculica, where is it?

    12 So one battalion was in Poculica and Prnjavor and

    13 Vrhovina. That was all?

    14 A. That was all in one place. Tolovici.

    15 Q. Where is Dubravica?

    16 A. Svbrino Selo.

    17 Q. Then Pilic, Ahimici and Nadoici. Let us mark these

    18 places. Where are Nadoici? Where is Pilici?

    19 A. That is here (Indicates).

    20 Q. Santoci. That is it, we have marked them.

    21 Later, we were saying that people from Stari Bila

    22 were part of them, with you in the TO, and others were

    23 in the brigade. Tell us, where was that Stari Bila,

    24 tell us, apart from Stari Bila, Bosovaca. Have we

    25 omitted anything? Have we forgotten anything.

  74. 1 Preocica. So these are the places. Do you agree we put

    2 here the mark, January 1993 or December 1992. It is

    3 better to put December 1992. So we shall put in the

    4 Roman figure 12 and 1993 next to it. Thank you.

    5 I would like to tender this map into evidence.

    6 (Handed).

    7 JUDGE JORDA: This will be taken into the case file under

    8 what number? It will be exhibit number what. It would

    9 be what? D23.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Djidic --

    11 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Mr. President, counsel, in reading the

    12 transcript the answer given by the witness -- this is

    13 for clarification -- was December of 1992. I believe

    14 the figure 1993 has been placed on the exhibit. Perhaps

    15 that is an error.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: It seemed to be that he was putting December

    17 1992 then they made a slash to say January 1993. At

    18 least that is how I understood it. That is right.

    19 I think it was December of 1992 and then January 1993.

    20 The one in the January is very important. But it is be

    21 given to you.

    22 MR. KEHOE: I thought there was an error and I was trying to

    23 assist counsel.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: The Defence counsel will thank you and we ask

    25 you to continue.

  75. 1 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Djidic, let us try

    2 to go back to the Serbs. The front against the Serbs in

    3 1992, for the sake of expediency I will indicate some of

    4 the directions of the front, because this does not

    5 concern the relationship between the Croats and the

    6 Muslims, but only the Serbs. Komusina, Usora, Maglad,

    7 was that the line of the front towards the Serbs?

    8 A. Maglad and Usora, I agree. As for Komusina, that I am

    9 not sure.

    10 Q. The second front line, Kotor Varos, Jajce, Pougarje; is

    11 that correct?

    12 A. In what year?

    13 Q. In 1992?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Third front, Pobiljaca, Kuscan, Konjic, Jablanica?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Fourth front, Varej, Olovo, Moglic?

    18 A. Varej, Olovo, Moglic.

    19 Q. Could it be Maglic? A moment for consultations, please,

    20 your Honours. All these names are a bit difficult, even

    21 for me. Magulica?

    22 A. I do not recall.

    23 Q. Fifth front, Gradacac, Boderiste Brcko. Sixth front,

    24 Bugojno, Gorni Vakuf, Prolor.

    25 Let us go back to the first front. Did the HVO

  76. 1 participate in the first front?

    2 A. I know it participated at Usora, but that was a unified

    3 front.

    4 Q. Kotor Varos, Jajce, Pougarje?

    5 A. For Jajce, I know it did. For Pougarje and Kotor Varos

    6 I also think they did.

    7 Q. Third front, Pobiljaca, Kuscan, Konjic and Jabanica, did

    8 the HV participate?

    9 A. For Pobiljaca I know that it did. And as far as the

    10 others are concerned, I do not know.

    11 Q. Fourth front, Varej, Olovo, did the HVO participate?

    12 A. I do not know.

    13 Q. Fifth front, Magulica, Boderiste, Gradacac, was the HVO

    14 there?

    15 A. I do not know for sure, but I think that somewhere

    16 there.

    17 Q. And lastly, Bugojno, Gorjni Vakuf, Prozor, did the HVO

    18 participate in the fighting?

    19 A. I do not know for sure, but I think there were units.

    20 I am not certain.

    21 Q. You mentioned the Jajce front that the HVO was there.

    22 Can you tell me how many kilometres of the front were

    23 held by the HVO and how many by the army of

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    25 A. I do not know.

  77. 1 Q. Were you at the Jajce front personally?

    2 A. No, I was not.

    3 Q. Are you familiar with the front at Travnik against the

    4 Serbs?

    5 A. Yes, the part where I was.

    6 Q. Were there any HVO members where you were?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. You mentioned the conflict of January. How did it end?

    9 Who established their control over part of the

    10 municipality of Busovaca, the road from Kacuni to

    11 Bilalovac?

    12 A. I think that it was in Bilalovac the HVO established its

    13 control from Kacuni to Bilalovac I think it was the army

    14 that was in control, and from Bilalovac to Kiseljak the

    15 HVO.

    16 Q. In Busovaca the HVO had control, do you remember the

    17 northern parts of Busovaca that bordered on the

    18 municipality of Zenica, who gained control of that

    19 territory?

    20 A. I am not sure. I do not know exactly what that line of

    21 the front looked like.

    22 Q. Now I should like to show another map, with Bilalovac,

    23 Kiseljak and Vitez and the newly established control of

    24 the Bosnia-Herzegovina army in January.

    25 Do you agree that the conflict between the army,

  78. 1 the BH army, and the HVO ended in January, somewhere

    2 around 23rd January? Can we put then a map from 23rd

    3 January. I am not sure about that.

    4 MR. HAYMAN: We had no translated answer to the question.

    5 Can we agree that the conflict in January some where

    6 around 23rd January? Could we have an answer to that so

    7 that the transcript is complete, your Honour?

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, repeat the question quickly,

    9 please, and that we can hear Mr. Djidic's answer to your

    10 question, when did it come to an end?

    11 MR. NOBILO: Do you agree with me that the conflict in

    12 January between the BH army and the HVO ended somewhere

    13 around 23rd January?

    14 A. I am not sure, perhaps.

    15 Q. Can we indicate on this map February 1st as a certain

    16 date for the restoration of peace?

    17 A. I think we can.

    18 Q. So let me say by way of introduction that we have a map

    19 of Zenica, the municipality of Busovaca, the scale is 1:

    20 25,000. The author is the Yugoslav People's Army. The

    21 title will be 1st February in Roman numerals of 93.

    22 Will you please mark the road between Busovaca and

    23 Kiseljak from Bilalovac from to Kacuni where the BH army

    24 established its control?

    25 A. I know only of the points.

  79. 1 Q. Will you indicate the points?

    2 A. There was an army base -- an army point here near

    3 Kacuni. I am sorry the interpreters cannot hear the

    4 witness very well. I am not sure of the other spot,

    5 even though I passed along that road.

    6 Q. Was it near or around Bilalovac, roughly, this other

    7 checkpoint?

    8 A. I would rather not make a mistake.

    9 Q. We would like to tender this map, also. We would like

    10 to tender this map as evidence in the form in which it

    11 is?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: This would be exhibit D24.

    13 MR. NOBILO: Let us repeat the situation; around the edges

    14 of the Busovaca municipality towards Zenica is

    15 unfamiliar to you?

    16 A. I am not sure about it.

    17 Q. Do you know whether the BH army had control of the road

    18 going from Kruscica to Novi Travnik and Travnik, before

    19 the conflict I? Am talking about March, beginning of

    20 April, 1993. Going along the road from Kruscica via

    21 Novi Travnik and Travnik was it possible to reach Zenica

    22 along that road without passing through checkpoints of

    23 the BH army?

    24 A. I do not know.

    25 Q. You never went to Zenica in the spring of 1993?

  80. 1 A. No, not along that road.

    2 Q. Very well. Tell me, going along the road from Kruscica

    3 to Sebesic and eventually to Fojnica was it possible to

    4 pass along that road without meeting with the BH army

    5 checkpoints?

    6 A. I do not know.

    7 Q. We are talking about March and April, 1993, the spring

    8 of 1993, before the conflict broke out. Did you travel

    9 along or did you hear from other people whether it was

    10 possible to go from Kruscica through your municipality

    11 to Gornji Vakuf without passing through checkpoints

    12 controlled by the BH army?

    13 A. I do not know.

    14 Q. Was it possible to go from Kruscica to Novi Travnik and

    15 eventually to Bilalovac without encountering BH army

    16 forces patrolling these roads?

    17 A. I do not know, but I think it was not possible to pass

    18 because there were many HVO checkpoints.

    19 Q. But were there any BH army checkpoints?

    20 A. Yes, there were, I think, at Opara.

    21 Q. I started from Kruscica as that was comparatively close

    22 to where you were working. Tell me from Kruscica to

    23 Roske Stijene to Fojnica along the road could one again,

    24 passing through BH army checkpoints?

    25 A. I do not know.

  81. 1 Q. The next road, I am listing those roads in the

    2 municipality of Vitez, heading towards various places in

    3 central Bosnia. Going from Kruscica, via Busovaca to

    4 Stijene to Kacuni could one pass out encountering

    5 segments under the control of the BH army?

    6 A. I did not go along that road.

    7 Q. You have military information, you were a member of the

    8 army?

    9 A. At that time I do not know whether it was possible to

    10 pass.

    11 Q. What does that mean, that you do not know? I apologise?

    12 A. I had no need to go along that road.

    13 Q. But did you receive information about it?

    14 A. I do not recall.

    15 Q. The next road going from Kacuni to Fojnica and then

    16 Tarcin and from there towards Mostar and Sarajevo, could

    17 one pass without encountering parts under the control of

    18 the BH army?

    19 A. I do not know.

    20 Q. Then we come to the next road, Kacuni. Dusina, Lasva,

    21 Zenica, could one pass across along that road without

    22 entering parts in the control of the BH army?

    23 A. I did not go along that road either.

    24 Q. Zenica, Guca Gora, Govnac, Travnik could one pass along

    25 that road without encountering parts controlled by the

  82. 1 BH army?

    2 A. I think not, because there were checkpoints of the army

    3 and the HVO, upon leaving Zenica, the HVO had one at

    4 Zenica and Guca Gora and Bila, the army. I am not quite

    5 sure about that.

    6 Q. The road from Travnik to Novi Travnik, could it be

    7 passed without going through parts controlled by the BH

    8 army?

    9 A. I know that there was an HVO checkpoint at the bend to

    10 Novi Travnik at the junction. I do not know what the

    11 situation along the rest of the road to Novi Travnik

    12 was.

    13 Q. And after the termination of the conflict, and the

    14 signing of the agreement, would we know who controlled

    15 what, which more or less corresponds to the situation as

    16 it is now?

    17 A. I only know some things.

    18 Q. Let us try to see what is held by the Bosniaks and what

    19 is held by the HVO. If we go to the Kruscica to Novi

    20 Travnik, Travnik and Zenica -- can one pass from Zenica

    21 without entering an area controlled by the BH army?

    22 A. I have heard that people have passed. Which road they

    23 took I do not know to this day.

    24 Q. What about these other roads that I have mentioned,

    25 without me listing them?

  83. 1 A. I know quite a lot, but I have not passed along those

    2 roads.

    3 Q. Can one go from Kruscica to Novi Travnik and Bugojno

    4 without entering a region controlled by the BH army?

    5 A. I do not understand that question.

    6 Q. Actually I passed along those roads and I saw that along

    7 certain segments the Bosnia police is controlling the

    8 roads?

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe?

    10 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this point with this question

    11 I will object to the relevance of these questions.

    12 MR. NOBILO: May I be heard, Mr. President? These are

    13 relevant questions because by analysing all this we see

    14 that Blaskic and his territory was totally surrounded,

    15 which does not mean that this witness can answer all the

    16 questions, but this is a relevant question.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: The objection is not sustained.

    18 MR. NOBILO: Therefore, Mr. Djidic, do you agree with me: the

    19 police are wearing different uniforms, and we are

    20 travelling from Kruscica to Novi Travnik and Bugojno.

    21 Will we meet with patrols of the Bosniak police?

    22 A. I do not think so now.

    23 Q. And going from Kruscica to Sebesic and Gorjni Vakuf?

    24 A. I do not think there is any police there either.

    25 Q. And who controls the territory?

  84. 1 A. I think it was under the control of the army.

    2 Q. From Kruscica to Zenica to Fojnica?

    3 A. There is no police there.

    4 Q. And who controls the territory?

    5 A. If I remember well, Mr. Nobilo, you asked me regarding

    6 1992 and the beginning of 1993.

    7 Q. I am asking you now about the present. Therefore,

    8 Kruscica, Sebesic, Fojnica?

    9 A. I think it is under the control of the army.

    10 Q. Kruscica, Novi Travnik, Travnik, Zenica?

    11 A. That was a road that could be passed through, or at

    12 least that was what I heard. I have not passed along

    13 it.

    14 Q. Kruscica, Sebesic, Fojnica?

    15 A. I do not know.

    16 Q. That is enough about that for the present.

    17 You mentioned the conflict in October 1992 in Novi

    18 Travnik. Do you know that on the eve of that conflict

    19 Commander Lendo planted three trucks worth 8 million

    20 marks. Did you hear about that?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Did you know the cause of the next conflict was

    23 incursion by force into the old hotel, and the Fire

    24 Brigade centre used for the accommodation of 2,000

    25 troops?

  85. 1 A. I do not know.

    2 Q. The conflict in Ahmici in October, do you know who you

    3 talked to in Ahmici in October when you heard that the

    4 conflict was going on? Who did you contact in Ahmici?

    5 A. I do not remember.

    6 Q. Who was the commander in Ahmici?

    7 A. I think it was Fuad Berbic.

    8 Q. Will you tell me who gave the orders for putting up the

    9 barricades in Ahmici?

    10 A. The order for the barricades was given by the municipal

    11 staff after consulting all military and political

    12 agencies.

    13 Q. When you said consulting these military and political

    14 structures, which political bodies are you referring to?

    15 A. The council for the protection of the interest of

    16 Muslims, or the presidency, I am not sure.

    17 Q. What did the barricade consist of?

    18 A. I do not know.

    19 Q. But on the first day you said these were barricades with

    20 spikes?

    21 A. That was stated at the meeting. I personally did not

    22 see them barricades.

    23 Q. At the meetings, did you hear that there were any mines

    24 there?

    25 A. No, Mario Cerkez said there were just two iron rods.

  86. 1 Q. Did you hear whether there were armed soldiers guarding

    2 the barricade?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Is it true that the barricade was put up on the road

    5 near the catholic cemetery?

    6 A. I do not know exactly. I did not see it, but that is

    7 possible. But there was a great deal of discussion

    8 about this.

    9 Q. You told me of the location you had heard of?

    10 A. Roughly there, but I did not see the roadblock.

    11 Q. I am asking you about what you heard. We understand

    12 that you did not see it. Had you heard of any trenches

    13 dug there?

    14 A. I do not know.

    15 Q. You said that the Muslims at that time were not prepared

    16 for shooting and killing in Ahmici. Do you know that an

    17 HVO member was killed in Ahmici?

    18 A. I do not know.

    19 Q. Was that not discussed at meetings?

    20 A. It was not.

    21 Q. Do you not think it was important?

    22 A. I think it was, a member of the army was killed. But

    23 I am not aware of an HVO soldier getting killed.

    24 Q. You decided in the staff to block the road at that spot

    25 to prevent the passage of HVO units. Why in that

  87. 1 particular place, why not somewhere else? Which were

    2 the reasons that motivated you to put up the roadblock

    3 there? Were they political or military reasons?

    4 A. We thought at length about what we should do, and we

    5 came to the conclusion that Vitez, too, might be

    6 attacked and the barricade was put there as a warning,

    7 and there were not many soldiers there. The idea was to

    8 try to come to some kind of an agreement, because we had

    9 received information that powerful HVO forces were

    10 moving from the direction of Busovaca, Kiseljak, Fojnica

    11 towards us, and we feared that they might stop at

    12 Vitez. Mario said that this had nothing to do with

    13 Vitez, but we did not believe him. In the course of

    14 those two or three days we saw that the HVO did, after

    15 all, try to disarm the army, and it did so in Ahmici.

    16 It tried to do the same in Donja Veceriska, and in

    17 Vitez.

    18 Q. That was not my question. Do you agree that your aim

    19 was to halt the troops from Busovaca and prevent them

    20 reaching Travnik. Was that the purpose of the

    21 roadblock?

    22 A. The purpose of the roadblock was not to allow HVO units

    23 to pass through Vitez, because we feared that they would

    24 attack us, too, and we received information that

    25 fighting was going on in Novi Travnik. We came to the

  88. 1 conclusion that the HVO would probably, after capturing

    2 Novi Travnik, try to capture Vitez. That was, in those

    3 days a logical way of thinking.

    4 Q. May I conclude from your answer that the roadblock was

    5 to prevent the passage of the army?

    6 A. The roadblock could not prevent the army from passing

    7 by, as it proved in actual fact.

    8 Q. Why was it put there?

    9 A. To try and stop those units, and possibly by negotiation

    10 to come to an agreement to prevent foreign troops from

    11 moving to Vitez.

    12 Q. So you yourself have said that you wanted to stop the

    13 units, so the roadblock was there at least temporarily

    14 to stop the passage of military units; is that correct?

    15 A. One might say so.

    16 Q. For how long were units prevented from passing that road

    17 from Busovaca to Vitez because of the roadblock at

    18 Ahmici?

    19 A. I do not know exactly.

    20 Q. Can it be measured in hours, or days?

    21 A. I am not sure, but Mario told me that the roadblock was

    22 cleared away. I heard that a fighter was killed, and

    23 I do not know for how long it was there.

    24 Q. When did Mario tell you this?

    25 A. I think he told me at the infirmary at a meeting.

  89. 1 Q. On what day, and at what time was this?

    2 A. I do not recall exactly. The day, I think it was, I am

    3 not sure, the 18th or the 19th of October.

    4 Q. At what time of day?

    5 A. I am again not sure, but I think it was some time in the

    6 morning. I am not quite sure.

    7 Q. And when did you give the orders? How long before Mario

    8 told you?

    9 A. I do not recall. There were very many problems at the

    10 time.

    11 Q. So we come back to the question of the roadblock. You

    12 said that you had put up the roadblock to temporarily

    13 stop armed units from passing, and to engage in

    14 negotiations. My question is: when you decided to put

    15 up this roadblock, why did you choose to interrupt the

    16 Busovaca, Selig Road at Ahmici. What was the reason,

    17 why not somewhere else? I am talking about in

    18 geographical terms?

    19 A. The army already had a checkpoint in Bila. It was a

    20 point, a checkpoint, that the HVO could certainly not

    21 pass, but we were sincerely afraid that the HVO might

    22 enter the city, and this -- that is why the block -- the

    23 barricade was put at the entrance to the town: those who

    24 know Vitez will see that.

    25 Q. You will agree that between Ahmici and the city there is

  90. 1 a difference, it is not the entrance to Vitez?

    2 A. It is.

    3 Q. So you consider that a place from which the entrance to

    4 Vitez can be controlled?

    5 A. That is the road which enters Vitez.

    6 Q. Yes, but at the junction of Ahmici. Can you control the

    7 entrance to Vitez from the side of Busovaca?

    8 A. Yes, but it does not need controlling, there are other

    9 ways.

    10 Q. So why did you put the roadblock on that road and not on

    11 another?

    12 A. Because members of the army did not come from another

    13 road.

    14 Q. So there are two reasons, first, that is the way that

    15 the HVO was using, and second you had members of the

    16 army there?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. So how many people were under arms at that time in

    19 October 1990?

    20 A. I cannot say exactly.

    21 Q. You agree that was the headquarters of the detachment?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Who was the commander?

    24 A. I think Fuad Berbic.

    25 Q. Tell me, HVO disarmed, you said, the TO from Ahmici?

  91. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did they take all of the arms or only a part of them?

    3 A. Most of the arms.

    4 Q. After that was the detachment again armed by the TO?

    5 A. Some of them were, but the majority were not.

    6 Q. Is it true that during the incident with the roadblock

    7 in Ahmici 10 fighters from Vrhovina then from Busovaca

    8 and 10 from another village came to help out?

    9 A. I cannot say exactly, but I think there was help, which

    10 did not participate in the incident with the roadblock.

    11 Q. Fuad Berbic you mentioned him?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. He was commander in Ahmici?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Who is Morris Avdic, what was his position?

    16 A. Moris Ahmic, you mean? That is a young man who used to

    17 be a commander for a certain period of time. Their

    18 functions overlapped, I believe.

    19 Q. Kermo Nermin, did he have any position in Ahmici?

    20 A. I do not remember.

    21 Q. Sisic Senad did you know him? Did he have any position

    22 at all in Ahmici?

    23 A. I do not know.

    24 Q. Hazrudin Bilic have a position?

    25 A. I knew him. I do not know about his post.

  92. 1 Q. Is he from Ahmici?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Where in Ahmici was the detachment headquartered?

    4 A. They changed the location frequently.

    5 Q. Name some of them.

    6 A. For some time they were headquartered in the school

    7 building.

    8 Q. Was that the school building across the road from the

    9 demolished mosque?

    10 A. Yes. And then they changed the headquarters because the

    11 Croats minded it being in the school.

    12 Q. Why?

    13 A. I do not know.

    14 Q. Where was the new location?

    15 A. I believe in a private cellar, I am not sure.

    16 Q. Tell me, after the January clash between the BH army and

    17 the HVO, did Kiseljak, Busovaca, Vitez, Zepce, and also

    18 Kakanj and Varos the municipality included in the

    19 central zone of Bosnia commanded by General Blaskic were

    20 they Territorially interlinked? Were they enclaves or

    21 were they Territorially interlinked?

    22 A. I believe they were interlinked.

    23 Q. Are you sure, is it your opinion?

    24 A. I think they were.

    25 Q. So from Busovaca to Kiseljak you could go without

  93. 1 passing through the BH army's territory?

    2 A. Those were only points. Those were not individual

    3 territories, because the war was not yet on. People

    4 were living, were coexisting. There was no ethnic

    5 separation.

    6 Q. But there were checkpoints?

    7 A. Yes, there were checkpoints, both of the HVO and the

    8 army.

    9 Q. Of course there were. At the beginning of the war, in

    10 the spring of 1993, that is from April 1993, was

    11 Kiseljak Territorially linked to Busovaca?

    12 A. I do not know.

    13 Q. Kakanj, Vlasic were they interlinked?

    14 A. I was surrounded at that time. I had no information.

    15 Q. You are a career soldier, in a way. Could you tell me

    16 the areas of responsibility of Third Corp, which

    17 territory did they cover in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that was

    18 your Corp?

    19 A. Yes, it was, but I was not in Third Corp.

    20 Q. What do you mean? It was your Corp but you did not

    21 belong to it?

    22 A. The 325th Brigade belonged to the Third Corp. I never

    23 belonged to either the 325th Brigade or the Third Corp.

    24 Q. Yes, but earlier this afternoon you said the

    25 headquarters of the TO, of the municipality of Vitez was

  94. 1 within the Third Corp?

    2 A. Within the Territorial, within the regional staff of the

    3 TO in Zenica.

    4 Q. And the regional staff of the TO of Zenica, was it

    5 within the Third Corp?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Which zone of responsibility did you belong in?

    8 A. That of the Third Corp.

    9 Q. For the last time, what is the area of responsibility of

    10 the Third Corp?

    11 A. I do not know exactly, but I believe -- I do not know.

    12 I do not know.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: This question has already been asked several

    14 times. Did you not ask this already?

    15 MR. NOBILO: The zone of responsibility was never specified

    16 so far. And that is very important.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: You yourself said: "I am asking you this for

    18 the last time". That is what you said. So, speed up,

    19 please.

    20 MR. NOBILO: Some things are being asked for the first

    21 time. The first Corp what area did it cover?

    22 A. That of Sarajevo.

    23 Q. Of Kiseljak as well?

    24 A. I do not know.

    25 Q. For the VII Corp do you know about them?

  95. 1 A. I think I know.

    2 Q. Please tell us?

    3 A. I do not know any details.

    4 Q. Roughly what did they cover?

    5 A. They covered the territory towards Vlasic, including

    6 Bugojno, to the left and Neokrnje to the right.

    7 Q. The II Corp what did they cover?

    8 A. I believe the territory of Tuzla.

    9 Q. Anything else?

    10 A. I do not know.

    11 Q. Let us put it this way: the operative zone of central

    12 Bosnia, did it overlap with --

    13 A. You must understand it never really worked in practice.

    14 Q. It existed on paper. Did it overlap with the realms of

    15 responsibility of the Sixth, Seventh and Third Corp?

    16 A. I do not know.

    17 Q. In your surroundings the municipality of Vitez, what

    18 were the artillery positions of the army of BH?

    19 A. In the municipality of Vitez?

    20 Q. Let us take the 16th April, 1993. The beginning of the

    21 conflict?

    22 A. I do not know.

    23 Q. Do you know about January 1993?

    24 A. I do not know.

    25 Q. Do you know any date after the 16th April, 1993, the

  96. 1 artillery positions of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    2 A. I do not know. I was surrounded at the time.

    3 Q. Did you have technical support?

    4 A. I did, but I do not know where it came from.

    5 Q. Were you in contact with the providers of that artillery

    6 support?

    7 A. I did not.

    8 Q. With their superiors?

    9 A. With their superiors I did not have contact.

    10 Q. Special purpose factories in central Bosnia. To move

    11 more quickly, I will tell you and you will just tell me

    12 you will agree or not. Konjic, they produced ammunition

    13 up to 20 millimetres; is that correct or not?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Let us clarify, special purposes factories are military

    16 factories?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. BNT Novi Travnik produced guns from 40 to 203

    19 millimetres, correct?

    20 A. I do not know.

    21 Q. But did they produce weapons?

    22 A. I know they produced agricultural machinery and perhaps

    23 some military things, I do not know about that.

    24 Q. Borac Travnik, foods and clothing for the army?

    25 A. They did not produce anything for me, I do not know

  97. 1 about others.

    2 Q. Repair factory of Travnik?

    3 A. That was a unit of the army.

    4 Q. You mean military industry?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Slavko Karuvic Bugojno, igniters for military purposes?

    7 A. I do not know.

    8 Q. You heard about the factory?

    9 A. Yes, I know about the factory. I know it was a military

    10 factory but what they produced, I did not know. I know

    11 that the factory in Vitez belonged to the same unit.

    12 Q. Another factory produced initial capsules for

    13 ammunition?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. In Tesanj again lighters were produced for military

    16 purposes?

    17 A. I do not know.

    18 Q. So these are the factories producing military

    19 equipment. Now we are coming to the April conflict.

    20 I mean the 16th April, 1993, and further on.

    21 Where were you when you heard, in the morning,

    22 shooting from the direction of Ahmici and when somebody

    23 from Ahmici called you and reported about the situation?

    24 A. I was in the headquarters.

    25 Q. What was the time?

  98. 1 A. I think 5.45.

    2 Q. Does that mean you spent the night in your office?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Was there a special reason for you spending the night

    5 there?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. What was that reason?

    8 A. The reason was that I was trying to attempt to obtain

    9 the release of army members detained by the HVO.

    10 Q. Why did you think you would achieve that by night?

    11 A. We had never stopped working on it.

    12 Q. In the morning, you were called up by a man from

    13 Ahmici. Why did he call you, in particular?

    14 A. I think I was the right person to call.

    15 Q. Can you explain?

    16 A. And so when we spoke about the formation of the brigade,

    17 you asked me where those people came from, and I showed

    18 you from which places specifically they came. Some of

    19 them joined the brigade, and some, they -- some remained

    20 in other structures. Those were the so-called

    21 Domobrani. At that time the brigade did not have a

    22 commander. In my testimony I said so. And the man

    23 called me up, perhaps, because he had my telephone

    24 number, the telephone number of the headquarters.

    25 Q. Was that a man who belonged to the brigade or to the

  99. 1 Territorial unit?

    2 A. I think the Territorial unit.

    3 Q. Was it not then logical for him to call you in

    4 particular, not just because he had the number?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. How were these zones divided according to which

    7 principle?

    8 A. The Territorial principle.

    9 Q. I mean how were they divided between the brigade and the

    10 Territorial unit?

    11 A. Territory was not divided in that way.

    12 Q. But you just said it was the territory covered by the

    13 brigade.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. I am asking you why that is so?

    16 A. Because all people from that territory have joined the

    17 brigade. In fact some of them were in the brigade and

    18 some of them in the Territorial unit.

    19 Q. So not all of them were in the brigade, therefore I am

    20 asking you: since there were soldiers from Ahmici and

    21 surrounding villages which belonged to both the brigade

    22 and the Territorial unit why did the army belong to the

    23 responsibility of the brigade, another Territorial unit?

    24 A. Because the headquarters of the brigade were closer than

    25 the headquarters of the Territorial unit.

  100. 1 Q. Where was the headquarters of the brigade, remind us?

    2 A. In Stari Vitez.

    3 Q. The headquarters of the brigade?

    4 A. No, the headquarters of the Territorial unit.

    5 MR. KEHOE: These questions have been asked and answered.

    6 We had a map on where the brigade headquarters were in

    7 Poculica.

    8 MR. NOBILO: For the first time we heard that Ahmici were

    9 within the zone of responsibility of the brigade. I am

    10 try together obtain an answer according to which

    11 principle one village belonged to the zone of

    12 responsibility to a mobile brigade whereas a village

    13 remained in the responsibility of the territorial unit.

    14 That is an important difference. A distinction that we

    15 have never heard before.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: You have the answer, Mr. Kehoe. The Defence

    17 can carry its own strategy. I cannot intervene on that

    18 level. Therefore, I must say he can proceed.

    19 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I am not objecting to a

    20 clarification on those distinctions. I am objecting to

    21 spending the time of drawing where the headquarters are

    22 and then we have additional questions as to where those

    23 brigade headquarters are for at least the second time

    24 and I do not know how many on top of that. That is the

    25 only objection I have not the point of clarification,

  101. 1 just the repetition.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Let us not talk about time. Do not talk to

    3 the judges about time, please. Mr. Nobilo, proceed.

    4 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. The attack place at

    5 dawn?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. You said it began with artillery attack?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. You were in the reserve officers school in Bileca?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Tell us what did you learn at that reserve officer

    12 school, when you attack a village at dawn do you first

    13 attack with artillery or infantry? What did the school

    14 say about that?

    15 A. It depends on the conditions.

    16 Q. The conditions are such it is dawn and the village is

    17 asleep, what did they teach you at school?

    18 A. There were several possibilities.

    19 Q. What was possibility number 1?

    20 A. We did not learn about attacking settlements at school.

    21 Q. You did not ... A moment, please. I need Exhibit 56.

    22 Mr. President, we have taken the Prosecutor's

    23 Exhibit 56, and now, with several points we have fixed

    24 this foil and we can put it back in the same place after

    25 some time. First I shall fix this white piece of paper

  102. 1 with a legend on it, and I will try to do it in the

    2 right place. (Pause).

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, proceed. And after the questions

    4 on the map we will take our break. Go ahead.

    5 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we shall take longer with this

    6 map, perhaps it is better to make the break now.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: I think we will take our break now. We will

    8 start again at 4.15.

    9 (4.00 pm)

    10 (short break) .

    11 (4.20 pm) .

    12 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Mr. Registrar, please

    13 bring in the accused

    14 (The accused was brought in).

    15 Mr. Nobilo?

    16 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Djidic, we come to your area. These are the

    17 photographs of Vitez. We have covered the aerial

    18 photograph with a foil and we have indicated the roads

    19 on this legend. You were the commander of the defence

    20 of Stari Vitez for a period of 9 months, and you were

    21 completely in, surrounded?

    22 A. For 11 months.

    23 Q. For 11 months, I apologise. You said you had circular

    24 defence system and you resisted for 11 months. Will you

    25 please, on this aerial photograph, indicate the

  103. 1 positions that you held in relation to the HVO, which

    2 were your defence lines and which was the territory that

    3 you were defending in a circular system. When on 16th

    4 April 1993, when did you establish the line of the

    5 front, on what date?

    6 A. I think it was the 17th, or rather the 16th the line was

    7 established, and for the next one month, next month it

    8 was regulated.

    9 Q. Regardless of whether it was regulated or not, will you

    10 please show us the lines of your defence and what

    11 territory you controlled.

    12 Mr. President, the witness will show the defence

    13 lines and I will mark those lines with this red marker

    14 as he tells me. So will you tell us the name of the

    15 street or any important building that could be used as a

    16 landmark.

    17 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, counsel, can we just come over and

    18 watch.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Harmon. (Pause).

    20 MR. NOBILO: We are moving from the hotel. Where is the

    21 hotel?

    22 A. I think it is here.

    23 Q. Where was your line of defence in relation to the hotel?

    24 A. Can I mark this street?

    25 Q. Do you know the name where should I mark the line of

  104. 1 defence?

    2 A. From this point (Indicates) to this point (Indicates).

    3 Q. Have I marked it correctly? Thank you.

    4 A. Then it goes in this direction this way.

    5 Q. Is that a river? Is that correct?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Very well.

    8 A. Then this part.

    9 Q. So you are showing me a circle?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. So it is going back towards the river and the bridge?

    12 A. The bridge. And then it goes along here (Indicates) on

    13 this side of a river.

    14 Q. So this is a wood here, yes, on that side of the wood or

    15 closer to the river?

    16 A. In the wood. From the wood --

    17 Q. From the wood to where?

    18 A. You can see the lines here.

    19 Q. Very well, and then is it this side or the other side?

    20 A. This settlement.

    21 Q. Can I draw a straight line?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Very well, and then -- was the stadium inside, can you

    24 show us how you went from there?

    25 A. No, I apologise. It went along here, not over there, a

  105. 1 correction. So we will correct that later.

    2 Q. Can I go to the end of the stadium?

    3 A. This far.

    4 Q. What are we going to do with the stadium, are we going

    5 around it, like this, across the stadium or what?

    6 A. (Indicates).

    7 Q. I draw a line across the stadium, how am I going to do

    8 that?

    9 A. Like this, and then along here, along the edge of the

    10 houses. Here (Indicates).

    11 Q. Where is your line? Where is your line?

    12 A. Here. That would roughly be the line.

    13 Q. And this here, can I link these two lines, no?

    14 A. I think this far roughly.

    15 Q. What about this?

    16 A. Just a moment, please. This line, somewhere around

    17 here, like this, it encompasses the houses. These two

    18 lines should be deleted.

    19 Q. Do you know the names of the streets where the line was

    20 going through the town?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Will you tell us from this point here, that is in the

    23 direction of the hotel, to the most distant point, what

    24 was the distance?

    25 A. About 500 metres.

  106. 1 Q. About 500 metres. That is the main road from the

    2 beginning of the territory under your control to the

    3 end, the distance was 500 metres. What were the lateral

    4 points where the distance was the greatest between two

    5 lateral points?

    6 A. About 600 metres.

    7 Q. So it is about 500 by 600 metres. How many inhabitants

    8 were there?

    9 A. At that time, about 1,600 inhabitants.

    10 Q. Fine. Could we now -- I am not a military man, but were

    11 there any particular points of resistance where you

    12 concentrated your fire power?

    13 A. When?

    14 Q. When you established your defence lines, where were the

    15 main points of resistance?

    16 A. The line was more or less evenly manned.

    17 Q. So you did not have troops that were concentrated in

    18 particular places?

    19 A. No, they were covered in the main directions of defence,

    20 roughly this part (Indicates). Can we put an arrow

    21 here, yes? So the HVO would be coming from here and

    22 from the church, from Lavici like this, and from the

    23 school. That was where most of the attacks came from.

    24 Q. And were the heaviest attacks where you concentrated the

    25 largest number of forces?

  107. 1 A. That is so.

    2 Q. Where was your position?

    3 A. I think it was here (Indicates).

    4 Q. What was the name of the building?

    5 A. It was a private house.

    6 Q. So this is the headquarters. What about the military

    7 police? Where was it housed? Where were its

    8 headquarters?

    9 A. The military police was accommodated in the same

    10 building as the civilian police, the Fire Brigade

    11 centre. I think it was here somewhere.

    12 Q. So the civilian and military police, we will mark them

    13 with the letter P for the centre of the civil and

    14 military police. Where was your warehouse, your

    15 logistics base?

    16 A. It was here (Indicates).

    17 Q. Outside the line or within the line?

    18 A. (Indicates).

    19 Q. So for the logistics base we will put the letter L.

    20 What about the communications centre, it was within the

    21 headquarters. Where did the troops have their meals,

    22 was there a particular place, or were they fed in the

    23 households?

    24 A. I had very little troops, but we had a common canteen

    25 near the headquarters. So here we have the canteen

  108. 1 (Indicates).

    2 Q. We will put the letter K for the word cooking hut in

    3 Croatian or canteen. Will you tell me where the army

    4 slept, were there any barracks?

    5 A. The military and the civilian police were there.

    6 Q. What about the other military troops, where did they

    7 sleep?

    8 A. They slept in their houses, they were local people so

    9 they all went home.

    10 Q. Yes. Did you have a staff detachment, a protective

    11 staff detachment?

    12 A. Yes, about 10 soldiers, and they kept guard duty around

    13 the headquarters, but they went home when they were off

    14 duty.

    15 Q. Tell us: where did the -- where were the troops

    16 stationed when they were in reserve, when they were not

    17 on duty?

    18 A. When?

    19 Q. In the spring of 1993, from the 18th, 19th onwards

    20 during the conflict?

    21 A. They were in their homes.

    22 Q. So there was no particular place. Did you have all the

    23 army deployed in the trenches during the fighting?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. So those who were not on the Defence lines, were they

  109. 1 together somewhere?

    2 A. No, they slept, at their homes.

    3 Q. Did you have any bunkers? Did you build any bunkers

    4 during those 11 months?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Will you show us where they were?

    7 A. Round the whole of Stari Vitez.

    8 Q. These are trenches. But bunkers, I am talking about

    9 bunkers?

    10 A. All around Stari Vitez. No, there were not bunkers

    11 everywhere and the distance between them depended on the

    12 terrain. There was about 50 metre distance between two

    13 bunkers.

    14 MR. KEHOE: It is going too fast, your Honour, and we are

    15 missing the questions.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Of course, these are very important questions

    17 for you, Mr. Nobilo, I assume?

    18 MR. NOBILO: Yes, very important.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, then.

    20 MR. NOBILO: I think we can go back to our seats now.

    21 Tell me please, Mr. Djidic, --

    22 JUDGE JORDA: The foil, Mr. Nobilo, do you wish to tender it

    23 as evidence, as you have indicated the defence lines

    24 under instruction from the witness? Let me repeat: do

    25 you wish to have the foil integrated in the records as

  110. 1 evidence what do you want to do?

    2 MR. NOBILO: Yes, Mr. President, but I would like it to stay

    3 there for a little longer, if need be.

    4 Mr. Djidic, when speaking about the number of

    5 troops, you said that you had 50 to 100. You were the

    6 commander for 11 months. Can you give us a precise

    7 answer? How many troops did you have? You said that

    8 some were your own, some were attached to the staff,

    9 some were at home, that some troops from the brigade

    10 were on vacation, on leave. Can you tell me if we

    11 include the military and civilian police how many troops

    12 did you have at your disposal during these 11 months of

    13 seige?

    14 A. Between 200 and 250 men.

    15 Q. When the seige began, did you mobilise additionally?

    16 A. Yes, yes.

    17 Q. And those additionally mobilised are included in the

    18 250?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. The armaments. In addition to infantry weapons, did you

    21 have any other weapons?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. What did you have that was not infantry? I am not

    24 talking about rifles. What else did you have?

    25 A. We had a 60 millimetre mortar, with only 10 shells; and

  111. 1 RPG, with about 10 shells, and nothing else in terms of

    2 heavy weapons.

    3 Q. In the night, when the attack occurred, or rather at

    4 dawn, did you have patrols out in the streets of Stari

    5 Vitez?

    6 A. They should have been there. Some were, but by the

    7 morning it emerged, later, that almost all of them were

    8 asleep.

    9 Q. On the aerial photograph, we can see trenches. When did

    10 you regulate the defence line?

    11 A. We worked on it, even three months later.

    12 Q. When did the more important works begin?

    13 A. They began after we had buried the dead people from

    14 Ahmici.

    15 Q. When was this?

    16 A. I think it was on the 26th or 27th of April, 1993. Yes.

    17 Q. From the 16th April, until the 26th or 27th, when you

    18 started on these major works, how did you defend

    19 yourselves?

    20 A. People hid behind houses, behind sheds, behind trees, in

    21 certain ravines around the stadium fences.

    22 Q. You are talking about private homes and sheds?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. In relation to Vitez hotel, you said that the line of

    25 defence was about 150 metres. Did your units get any

  112. 1 closer during the battles?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. So the closest you got to Hotel Vitez was 150 metres?

    4 A. I said that the distance was 150 to 200 metres; but my

    5 troops did get closer to the hotel.

    6 Q. How close did they get?

    7 A. They reached the administrative building of the

    8 utilities administration.

    9 Q. How far is that from the hotel?

    10 A. I think it is about 80 to 100 metres.

    11 Q. When was that?

    12 A. I do not recall exactly, but these were actions taken on

    13 their own initiative. Mostly the troops were looking

    14 for cigarettes and alcoholic drinks. They did not stay

    15 long in that building.

    16 Q. You said that on 16th April your headquarters were hit.

    17 Did you change the location after that?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Where did you move?

    20 A. I moved 100 metres within Stari Vitez.

    21 Q. To what location?

    22 A. The same location, but 100 metres removed.

    23 Q. It was a private house?

    24 A. Yes, it was a private house.

    25 Q. Could you please show us on the map where your

  113. 1 headquarters were?

    2 A. (Indicates) I think it was here somewhere.

    3 Q. I have marked this with the letter Z1. So I have marked

    4 it with Z1, the new headquarters.

    5 You said that you moved your headquarters by 100

    6 metres?

    7 A. Roughly.

    8 Q. But if the whole width is 600 to 700 metres then it

    9 seems to me to be too close?

    10 A. Well, you can measure it.

    11 Q. Very well. You mentioned the houses that were hit with

    12 the fire extinguishers, the babes. Could you tell us

    13 which were the houses that were hit, and in which

    14 street, I want to be specific?

    15 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. I did not hear the answer,

    16 could the witness please repeat the answer?

    17 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, your Honour.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

    19 MR. KEHOE: I believe the translator did not hear the

    20 answer, and did not translate, because the question is

    21 running over the answer.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, yes. Please, Mr. Nobilo, could you

    23 repeat your question, and allow the interpreters to do

    24 their job?

    25 MR. NOBILO: I asked whether you could indicate the houses

  114. 1 that were hit with the explosive devices made from fire

    2 extinguishers?

    3 A. I said that very few houses were not hit with the

    4 explosive devices, or almost hit, in other words they

    5 fell very close to the houses.

    6 Q. Therefore, could you please, as an example, indicate

    7 some of the houses and give us the names of the owners,

    8 or the address? The houses that were hit with these

    9 fire extinguishers?

    10 A. Yes, I can.

    11 Q. These houses which were hit by converted fire

    12 extinguishers --

    13 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me counsel. (Pause).

    14 MR. NOBILO: The houses which were hit by converted fire

    15 extinguishers shall be marked with points?

    16 A. If you so wish then you should -- then there would be

    17 many points inside Stari Vitez.

    18 Q. But to save time let us begin with 10 houses?

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I have to intervene. The witness

    20 will answer as he wish, but it is rather complicated, if

    21 not difficult, to distinguish houses which are hit, the

    22 identity of the owners and so on. The map we have is an

    23 aerial one. Perhaps you could simplify the question and

    24 ask an indication of a few houses as an example. Surely

    25 it is difficult to provide a whole list, as the witness

  115. 1 has answered. So, please, let us speed up this part of

    2 the question, if possible.

    3 MR. NOBILO: You can see better from closer quarters, and

    4 the witness would perhaps be able to do that. We can do

    5 it in another way. I will be showing you particular

    6 quarters and the witness will tell me whether the

    7 converted fire extinguishers hit them or not. I am

    8 showing you this area.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: That is better now. That is better.

    10 MR. NOBILO: I am marking it with number 2?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And --

    13 A. May I help? Your Honour, allow me to lend what

    14 assistance I can?

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, you may, yes, you may, of course.

    16 A. What you see now will be the places hit by explosive

    17 device (Indicates). Everything. Absolutely everything.

    18 MR. NOBILO: You did not point exactly, you did it randomly?

    19 A. Yes, I did, because the entire territory was hit by a

    20 multitude of explosive devices.

    21 Q. Mr. Djidic, the catapult launching these so-called fire

    22 extinguisher and the fire extinguisher converted into an

    23 explosive device, in which way does it fly? Does it fly

    24 in a direct, in a straight line or in an arch?

    25 A. In an arch.

  116. 1 Q. Does this device launched in such a manner -- is it able

    2 to fly over a two storey building?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Mr. Djidic, tell me, what is the range of this device?

    5 A. I believe it is 3 to 400 metres, and it can also fire at

    6 a closer change, and at a longer range, I think. I am

    7 not sure.

    8 Q. Asked by the Prosecutor you said you had enough

    9 ammunition. Did you have a military warehouse?

    10 A. Yes, we did, a small warehouse, which was a backup we

    11 issued to people who went to the front.

    12 Q. Throughout 11 months a lot of it was used up, how did

    13 you refill it?

    14 A. We got new ammunition from captives and we took the

    15 ammunition people held in houses.

    16 Q. Did the UNPROFOR bring any ammunition and military

    17 equipment?

    18 A. No, never.

    19 Q. Who is General Alagic?

    20 A. General Alagic is commander of the VII Corp, he was

    21 commander of the VII Corp.

    22 Q. Was he also commander of the III Corp at one point?

    23 A. I do not think so.

    24 Q. Was he commander of the operative group?

    25 A. I think he was.

  117. 1 Q. Operative group Krajina. I have a document your

    2 Honour. I kindly ask the usher to approach. (Handed).

    3 The President, your Honours, an the first page the

    4 article is about Ljiljan. This is a newspaper close to

    5 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this issue is

    6 from last week, the date is the 23rd July, 1997 --

    7 sorry, 30th July 1997. The pages we copied have on them

    8 war memories of General Alagic who wrote a book "War in

    9 central Bosnia". On page 27, the third page in my copy,

    10 page 27 in the newspaper, please put it on the ELMO on

    11 the right-hand side, next to the photograph of the

    12 commander of the 17th Krajina brigade we can read:

    13 "The army was blackmailed by the seige of Stari

    14 Vitez where fear reined from the massacre against

    15 Bosniaks." The text goes on. "On the other hand you

    16 were blackmailed" quote unquote, by Stari Vitez and

    17 General Alagic's exactly. Our pressure on their lines

    18 had always the purpose of deterring them from entering

    19 Stari Vitez, because we were afraid that a more horrible

    20 massacre could occur there than the one in Ahmici."

    21 Then follows the text which is important and is

    22 the reason why I brought this exhibit:

    23 "Thanks to our connections in the United Nations,

    24 we managed to bring some resources into Stari Vitez to

    25 enable them to defend themselves, and at the same time,

  118. 1 by long range artillery, we have foiled defences of the

    2 HVO against Stari Vitez. The evidence of Stari, even

    3 women were engaged in the Defence".

    4 I would like you to admit this newspaper into

    5 evidence, because that source is well known. I can

    6 provide the original.

    7 MR. KEHOE: Is counsel arguing that General Alagic is

    8 talking about these resources that UNPROFOR brought

    9 ammunition in?

    10 JUDGE JORDA: I am afraid I cannot get involved in the

    11 question of the translation, but the question now is

    12 whether we can admit it as evidence. I think we can.

    13 We know what the source is, and you can contest it as

    14 you wish. Mr. Registrar, what is the number of this

    15 exhibit?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: D25.

    17 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Djidic, Mr. Alagic claims that arms were

    18 smuggled to you through the UNPROFOR?

    19 A. That is not true.

    20 MR. KEHOE: I object.

    21 MR. NOBILO: So General Alagic is not saying the truth. Did

    22 UNPROFOR come to Stari Vitez during the seige?

    23 A. Yes, they did.

    24 Q. With what intention? What was their objective?

    25 A. To organise meetings, escorting humanitarian aid and

  119. 1 escorting the International Red Cross to enable

    2 evacuation of the wounded and to reach agreements on

    3 various exchanges.

    4 Q. Is it true, as General Alagic says, that even women were

    5 mobilised in the Defence?

    6 A. Yes, there were women in the first aid units, and in

    7 other areas.

    8 Q. Mr. Djidic, are you familiar with the public appeal of

    9 the HVO to all women, children, elderly people -- not

    10 the appeal, excuse me, their statement that they are

    11 free to leave Vitez?

    12 A. Yes, I know about that.

    13 Q. Was that accepted?

    14 A. No, not by me and not by anyone else.

    15 Q. Why?

    16 A. Because people did not want to abandon their houses.

    17 Q. Do you not think that that was the way to avoid civilian

    18 casualties because we are talking about civilians here,

    19 not the military?

    20 A. Maybe that was possible before the funeral, not after

    21 it.

    22 Q. Did you propose at least the civilians to leave?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Did you not think it was your duty to propose that to

    25 people for the sake of saving them?

  120. 1 A. To propose to them to leave their houses?

    2 Q. Yes, but for a purpose, to save their lives?

    3 A. Nobody -- it was impossible to leave Stari Vitez.

    4 Q. There was a proposal of the HVO from April?

    5 A. People did not want that.

    6 Q. Were there any more such proposals?

    7 A. I think so.

    8 Q. Could you agree with my statement that at any stage of

    9 the fighting HVO allowed civilians to leave Stari Vitez?

    10 A. I would not agree with that.

    11 Q. Tell me, when did that cease to be possible?

    12 A. There were certain periods when it was not possible, nor

    13 were there any agreements or proposals to that effect.

    14 Q. And were these periods relieved by other periods when it

    15 was possible to leave?

    16 A. HVO allowed for a certain time civilians to leave, and

    17 at one point most civilians had abandoned Stari Vitez,

    18 but not those who had houses in Stari Vitez. They did

    19 not want to.

    20 Q. And could you order them to?

    21 A. I do not think I was able to do that.

    22 Q. Have you ever tried?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Tell me about the wounded. How did you evacuate them

    25 when you evacuated them at all, through whom?

  121. 1 A. Most of the wounded civilians were not evacuated. Some

    2 of them were evacuated with the assistance of the

    3 International Red Cross, who came escorted by the


    5 Q. You referred to two cases when people died because

    6 evacuation had not been permitted?

    7 A. I do not think there were only two such cases.

    8 Q. How many were there?

    9 A. I do not know exactly, but there were many.

    10 Q. Can you tell me the names of the people and the time

    11 when it happened?

    12 A. I could not list all of them. But I could remember

    13 quite a few of them. One of such casualties, one of the

    14 people who died, the most typical example, perhaps, is a

    15 child only two years old. There were more civilian

    16 victims, women and elderly people, but also military

    17 men.

    18 Q. Let us come back to the child. What was the date?

    19 A. I think I have it written somewhere. If your Honour

    20 would allow me to look at my papers. (Pause). That was

    21 on 28th November, 1993.

    22 Q. Who did you approach to request permission for

    23 evacuation?

    24 A. We requested that through the 325th Brigade, who was in

    25 touch with the UNPROFOR. UNPROFOR arrived only two days

  122. 1 later. The child had already died.

    2 Q. Did you have a direct contact with the HVO?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. No telephone contacts?

    5 A. No, our telephone did not work from the 10th day of the

    6 conflict to the end of the war. All telephones were

    7 dead.

    8 Q. Did you have any other line?

    9 A. Not with the HVO.

    10 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you called up the

    11 325th Brigade, they called the UNPROFOR and the UNPROFOR

    12 arrived two days later; is that correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Do you know what the situation was in Vitez, because you

    15 mentioned famine in Stari Vitez?

    16 A. I do not know.

    17 Q. Did you hear about the convoy at Bijeli Put?

    18 A. Yes, I did.

    19 Q. When did that convey reach Vitez?

    20 A. I do not remember the exact date, one truck, which

    21 belonged to that convey reached Stari Vitez.

    22 Q. Who organised that convey?

    23 A. I think it was organised by Caritas, an Islamic

    24 religious organisation in Zagreb.

    25 Q. Who was the leader of the convey?

  123. 1 A. The convey which reached Vitez was Bijeli and Sefkjia,

    2 I do not know his last name, but he is the principal man

    3 in the mosque in Zagreb.

    4 Q. Could his name by Omerbasic?

    5 A. Yes, that is him.

    6 Q. They reached Stari Vitez, and who was the leader of the

    7 entire white convoy?

    8 A. If I remember correctly, I think it was Larry

    9 Hollingworth.

    10 Q. Does the name of Dr Lang mean anything to you?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Was he there?

    13 A. He did not come to Stari Vitez.

    14 Q. Was he one of the leaders of that convoy?

    15 A. I do not know.

    16 Q. You said you were under artillery fire of the HVO.

    17 Could you mark artillery positions of the HVO?

    18 A. Yes, I can is the answer.

    19 Q. Please do that?

    20 A. I will, approximately.

    21 Q. So, again, on this foil, again on this foil, which is

    22 now covering the aerial photograph of Stari Vitez, we

    23 shall mark the artillery positions of the HVO?

    24 A. Stari Vitez was under fire most of the time from the

    25 direction of Krcevine.

  124. 1 Q. Yes, but where are the artillery positions?

    2 A. They changed.

    3 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me counsel, you are speaking over him?

    4 A. Artillery positions shifted.

    5 MR. NOBILO: Could you point out several typical positions?

    6 A. I can. That was in the area about the petrol station

    7 Kalen.

    8 Q. I shall mark it with the letter T?

    9 A. Here (Indicates), near these houses, and then again here

    10 (Indicates), then here (Indicates). That would be

    11 approximately where they were.

    12 Q. Was it one cannon moving, or were there several of them?

    13 A. There was a number of artillery guns.

    14 Q. How many in this area?

    15 A. Depending on the period, I noted a 40 millimetre cannon,

    16 because my headquarters were hit from that side with the

    17 128 millimetre launcher. There were also mortars of 40

    18 and 60 millimetres, which fired on Stari Vitez.

    19 Q. Do you have any more positions to show us?

    20 A. Yes. (Indicates) this area here (Indicates) is called

    21 Gradina.

    22 Q. Which gun was placed here?

    23 A. I think it was a hilltop cannon of some kind, and there

    24 were also other guns. After the capturing of the Gacice

    25 village, there was one position below the village from

  125. 1 which they fired on us.

    2 Q. Was it here? We shall mark it with a T and then a G for

    3 Gacice. What was placed here, which gun?

    4 A. It was a 20 millimetre cannon, 40 millimetre cannon and

    5 mortars of a smaller calibre.

    6 Q. Anything else?

    7 A. I cannot remember for now.

    8 Q. Thank you.

    9 A. We were also fired at from the direction of the factory

    10 (Indicates). A long range cannon, 150 millimetres, I do

    11 not know where exactly it was positioned. We also had

    12 shelling of that kind.

    13 Q. A cannon from the factory, what calibre was it?

    14 A. I think it was a 40 millimetre calibre.

    15 Q. You had mortars. Where was it positioned?

    16 A. We used it very rarely. The location was along the

    17 Lasva.

    18 Q. Could you indicate it, please?

    19 A. I can. (Indicates) I am afraid it is not very precise,

    20 but I hope it can be accepted.

    21 Q. With the letter M we have marked the position of the

    22 mortar. Was that the only location it had, or were

    23 there others?

    24 A. That is where we kept it, but it was not used. We used

    25 it very rarely, because we had very little -- few

  126. 1 shells.

    2 Q. But it when it was used, did you move it to any other

    3 position from which you fired?

    4 A. I think we used it at the Remiza, that is in the

    5 opposite direction. (Indicates). Later, in July 1993,

    6 when an armoured vehicle headed for Stari Vitez.

    7 Q. Were there any other locations from which you used the

    8 mortar?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. How is a mortar used? Is it placed on the front line,

    11 or is it further in the rear?

    12 A. It depends on the type you have.

    13 Q. Well, the type that you had, how is it properly used?

    14 A. Mostly on the front line.

    15 Q. That means in the trench with the infantry?

    16 A. Nearby.

    17 Q. How close?

    18 A. About 10 metres. Sometimes further than that. It was

    19 mainly a commando.

    20 Q. Is a mortar positioned on an open area in the field, or

    21 is it protected in some way?

    22 A. It is usually protected, sheltered.

    23 Q. What kind of shelter?

    24 A. It does not have to be anything specially built.

    25 Q. But it must not be on a plateau on a flat area right

  127. 1 next to the front line?

    2 A. Why not?

    3 Q. I assume that the adversary could hit or rather the crew

    4 of the mortar?

    5 A. Your assumption is correct.

    6 Q. So it had to be sheltered?

    7 A. Yes, but it could be used from a place where there is no

    8 protection.

    9 Q. But is that the way it is usually used?

    10 A. Commandos, yes.

    11 Q. You mentioned the RPG, hand rocket launcher. How many

    12 shells did you have for this hand rocket launcher?

    13 A. About 10.

    14 Q. Could you tell me from which positions you fired these

    15 RPGs?

    16 A. There were mostly these positions, along the line of

    17 communication.

    18 Q. Could we mark those positions, please?

    19 A. We could. (Indicates) here (Indicates).

    20 Q. We will mark it with the letter R.

    21 A. Here and here (Indicates). We changed its position

    22 because we had only one of them, one RPG.

    23 Q. You said that you used the RPG along the main

    24 communication lines, and that you changed their

    25 position. What does that mean? Does that mean that you

  128. 1 shifted from one side of the road to the other?

    2 A. It depended on the direction from which the attacks

    3 came. We were never sure whether another truck bomb

    4 could arrive.

    5 Q. So we had these three positions, and did you change them

    6 round, those three points?

    7 A. Those were those positions, mostly.

    8 Q. In which semi-circle did you change the positions round

    9 those three points?

    10 A. I do not understand the question.

    11 Q. You told me that you changed positions, so I would like

    12 to know, we have these three points that you have

    13 indicated, within those three points did you change

    14 positions, or was the RPG always kept in one spot?

    15 A. Almost always in one position.

    16 Q. Could you tell me in the course of 11 months, did you

    17 have any contact with the 325th Brigade, or rather did

    18 you receive information where that brigade was?

    19 A. Yes, I did.

    20 Q. Can you describe, over the months, where the 325th

    21 brigade was operating?

    22 A. That is easy to describe. At the beginning of the war

    23 the lines changed little from what they were at the

    24 beginning of the war until the end of the war.

    25 Q. Could you explain where the 325th Brigade was, where the

  129. 1 front was established?

    2 A. Yes, I can. That was not difficult to see.

    3 Q. Mr. President, I would like to tender this foil as

    4 evidence, and we would complete the cross-examination

    5 regarding this foil, and then we can pass on to another

    6 map?

    7 MR. KEHOE: There are a couple of corrections I believe the

    8 witness made on this particular map, if you recall,

    9 counsel, so pending the corrections that are on the

    10 map. If we can hold this into abeyance until they are

    11 made.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: You are talking about the defence lines.

    13 Mr. Nobilo has a solution.

    14 MR. NOBILO: With a blue marker we shall try to delete the

    15 surplus lines.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, please go up to the board, to the

    17 easel.

    18 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

    19 MR. NOBILO: Is that correct now?

    20 A. Yes, thank you.

    21 MR. NOBILO: The usher, could you help me, please.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: The foil will bear which number,

    23 Mr. Registrar?

    24 THE REGISTRAR: D26.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Be careful of the marks,

  130. 1 Mr. Usher, carefully. Mr. Nobilo and Mr. Prosecutor, it is

    2 now 5.25. Unless you are of a different opinion I think

    3 that even if we continue until 6 o'clock we will not

    4 finish with this witness. Mr. Nobilo, Mr. Kehoe?

    5 MR. NOBILO: I am afraid we would not. You have seen that

    6 I am doing my best. I have left out a number of things,

    7 but these are all matters of relevance.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but we have seen quite a number, but

    9 never mind, that is not the point. I think that you

    10 should put your last question, regarding this map. We

    11 will adjourn at 5.30 or as soon as you have finished

    12 with the questions regarding this map, and we will

    13 postpone the end of the cross-examination for the 18th

    14 August, at 10 o'clock. Mr. Nobilo, you may continue. If

    15 I said the 18th, it is the 19th of August, I am sorry.

    16 It is Tuesday, 19th August at 10 o'clock. I apologise

    17 for making a mistake.

    18 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Djidic, one further effort from you. The

    19 325th Brigade. Where were their front lines in relation

    20 to the HVO?

    21 A. When was this? At what time?

    22 Q. Shall we start with April 1994 -- no, I apologise, 1993,

    23 April, 1993. With a blue marker I have indicated 4 as

    24 an indication of April 1993, and on top, 325, the number

    25 of the brigade. We are trying to obtain information

  131. 1 regarding the confrontation line between the HVO and the

    2 325th Brigade.

    3 A. In the course of April, the situation changed. The line

    4 was not a permanent. I can try to give you an

    5 indication of only what I saw from Stari Vitez, and what

    6 I heard from colleagues from the 325th Brigade.

    7 Q. I am asking what would be the best way to mark these

    8 lines, from one place to the next, is that acceptable?

    9 A. Between Ljubici and Tolovici. Here (Indicates).

    10 Q. Can I link the two lines, no?

    11 A. Just a moment, please. It was here any way in Gacice,

    12 I do not know exactly. Then I think it went this way

    13 (Indicates). I do not know the rest of it.

    14 Q. Do you know this side, in this direction above Ahmici?

    15 A. I do not recall.

    16 Q. Do you know about Svbrino Selo, who controlled it?

    17 A. The army controlled it.

    18 Q. Can I mark a semi-circle there?

    19 A. That is where my house is. (Indicates) here and then up

    20 here (Indicates) then this way (Indicates), and then

    21 this way.

    22 Q. Pirici, in whose hands were they?

    23 A. I do not know.

    24 Q. Can you remember how these two parts were linked? Did

    25 it go along this road from Dubravica to Tolovici, Lazine

  132. 1 who controlled Lazine?

    2 A. The HVO. The HVO controlled this far (Indicates). This

    3 is very approximate.

    4 Q. So you were in Vitez and the BH army was here. Do you

    5 know the situation here and here?

    6 A. I could not see the lines up there, so anything I would

    7 say would not be reliable.

    8 Q. What about this road, going from Stari Bila to Tolvici?

    9 A. This was controlled by the HVO.

    10 Q. How far?

    11 A. I do not know how far.

    12 Q. What about Rijeka, who held that?

    13 A. I think the army held it. I think, I am not sure. I do

    14 not know how far the HVO controlled this territory, but

    15 later on the army controlled it. I do not know the

    16 exact date.

    17 Q. Can we mark this region and this region as being under

    18 the control of the army?

    19 A. You can. Let me point out that this is not a precision

    20 map. You forgot to encircle Stari Vitez. Will you help

    21 me, please?

    22 Q. Is that the situation as it was in April 1993?

    23 A. As far as I was able to see, roughly. I do not know the

    24 line in the direction of Kruscica.

    25 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. That would be all regarding

  133. 1 this map. And we would like to tender this map as

    2 evidence.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Boss, which number will this exhibit

    4 bear? Yes, thank you, we are going to adjourn the

    5 meeting now. Yes, Mr. Kehoe?

    6 MR. KEHOE: With regard to this exhibit I believe it is more

    7 accurate to say post 16th April 1993. After the 16th

    8 April, 1993, not all of April?

    9 A. In the course of April, but after the 16th.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: You wish to intervene Mr. Hayman?

    11 MR. HAYMAN: Just before we break your Honour, because we

    12 are not going to have a hearing for two weeks I have a

    13 procedural question concerning the court's ruling at the

    14 hearing earlier this week. The ruling on the discovery

    15 motion.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes.

    17 MR. HAYMAN: The court had directed with respect to the

    18 August session any witness called by the Prosecution

    19 specified in my motion that notice of that be given in

    20 advance to the Defence as a temporary measure pending

    21 the final decision on the motion. I have spoken to the

    22 Prosecutor concerning how, in advance, that notice

    23 should be and there is no agreement on that issue.

    24 I would ask that the court direct that either the notice

    25 be 14 days in advance or at the time the Prosecution

  134. 1 forms an intent to call one of those individuals, should

    2 it be less than 14 days before they are actually called.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. First of all, we are going to ask

    4 the witness to withdraw. We are going to thank him and

    5 ask him to make another effort and come again on the

    6 19th. Mr. Djidic, the Tribunal thanks you. We will ask

    7 the usher to accompany you out.

    8 A. Thank you.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Now, Mr. Registrar, can the curtains be drawn,

    10 and can we continue in camera? Yes, perhaps we do not

    11 need to draw the blinds, it is sufficient to have a

    12 private session, to switch off the sound.

    13 (Private session)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  135. 1












    13 Pages 1481 to 1488 in closed session

    16 (Hearing adjourned until 10 am on 19th August 1997)