International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Case No IT-95-14

  1. 1 Tuesday, 19th August 1997

    2 (10.00 am)

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated.

    4 Mr. Registrar, bring in the accused.

    5 (Accused brought in)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Can everyone hear me? On the side of the

    7 Prosecution, can you hear me? On the side of the

    8 Defence, Mr. Blaskic, can you hear me?

    9 MR. BLASKIC: Good morning, your Honour; I hear you well.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Sit down please. My colleagues can hear me.

    11 Thank you. Then we are ready to resume our work, where

    12 we interrupted our work roughly two weeks ago. We are

    13 now in the stage of the Prosecution which is to tell us

    14 where we now stand. I think we have to finish the

    15 cross-examination of a witness; is that so? Very well.

    16 Perhaps we can bring in the witness. Mr. Kehoe?

    17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, your Honour, Mr. Djidic is in the waiting

    18 room.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.

    20 (Witness entered court)

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Djidic, good morning. Can you hear me?

    22 A. Good morning.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Can you hear me?

    24 A. Yes, good morning.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I should like to remind you you

  2. 1 are still under oath and I think we can now continue and

    2 I hope complete the cross-examination. Mr. Nobilo or

    3 Mr. Hayman? It is Mr. Nobilo.

    4 MR. SEFKIJA DJIDIC (continued)

    5 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO (continued)

    6 Q. Good morning, your Honours, my learned colleagues.

    7 Good morning Mr. Djidic. It was two weeks ago

    8 where we stopped when we were talking about some front

    9 lines around Vitez where we located the positions of the

    10 BH-Army. This was about 16th April 1993 that we were

    11 talking about. Can you tell us whether those front

    12 lines were moved later on, for instance in May 1993?

    13 Were there any changes?

    14 A. Yes, there were.

    15 Q. Can you explain that to us?

    16 A. The first days of war consisted of constant attacks and

    17 then in May there were offences and counter-offences,

    18 and then I think it was in August that the HVO captured

    19 Grbavica. I do not exactly recall the date when that

    20 happened. The army captured Zabrdje and those were the

    21 lines that were maintained until the end of the war with

    22 only minor changes.

    23 Q. You spoke to us last time about the 325th Brigade and

    24 their positions. Could you tell us anything about the

    25 306th brigade from Han Bila and its participation in the

  3. 1 battles in the municipality of Vitez?

    2 A. I do not know exactly who took part in the fighting.

    3 I said that I was under encirclement and that I received

    4 only information that concerned me regarding

    5 Stari Vitez. It is possible that the 306th also

    6 participated, but I do not know the exact locations.

    7 Q. But were you connected by phone or radio links with the

    8 Third Corps while you were surrounded?

    9 A. I was in touch with the 325th Brigade.

    10 Q. And with no one else?

    11 A. No one else directly.

    12 Q. Do you know what the Seventh Muslim Brigade was doing on

    13 the front around Poculice?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. The 17th Krajina Brigade?

    16 A. I heard that it was in the territory of Vitez during the

    17 war.

    18 Q. So you were not in touch with anyone from the Third

    19 Corps but on 16th April 1993, did you have a telephone

    20 conversation with Enver Hadzihasanovic, the commander of

    21 the Third Corps?

    22 A. I do not remember.

    23 Q. That was the day of the attack in the morning?

    24 A. I do not remember.

    25 Q. Let us go back to the part of your statement relating to

  4. 1 the capture of the military policemen in Krusica. You

    2 spoke to Pasko Lubicic and Blaskic; do you remember

    3 that?

    4 A. I do.

    5 Q. You said that you personally guaranteed with your own

    6 life that there would be investigations and only then

    7 did the people from Krusica release the HVO soldiers?

    8 A. Yes, that is correct.

    9 Q. I would like to know how come you had to guarantee with

    10 your life, why could you not simply order the release of

    11 these soldiers?

    12 A. At the time I could not issue such an order because two

    13 members of the army were dead.

    14 Q. I do not understand; they were dead, yes, but you were

    15 the commander.

    16 A. Yes, that is so.

    17 Q. What does that mean? Would they refuse to follow your

    18 orders?

    19 A. They found it very difficult to carry out my orders and

    20 until I guaranteed that there would be an investigation

    21 and probably this must have been agreed between

    22 Mr. Merdan and Mr. Blaskic, and Merdan guaranteed that

    23 there would be an investigation the very next morning,

    24 and when I explained to these men that there would be an

    25 investigation, then they agreed to release the

  5. 1 policemen.

    2 Q. Yes, we realised that, but what I am interested in --

    3 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, again before we get too far on this,

    4 I do object to the form of the questions as to what he

    5 realises and what he does not understand. I just ask

    6 Mr. Nobilo to ask questions and I object to the form.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, objection sustained. Mr. Nobilo, you have

    8 your own views regarding the way in which the witness is

    9 answering questions, but you can use his answers the way

    10 you wish, but you cannot make any personal comments,

    11 therefore just questions, please.

    12 MR. NOBILO: I will continue if I may, but let me just

    13 explain: I was not commenting; the witness did not

    14 answer my question. He answered with a statement that

    15 he had already given, but I will follow your

    16 instructions.

    17 I would like to know whether the organisation of

    18 the BH-Army in your region at the time was such that you

    19 could issue an order which would be followed without

    20 discussion or not?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. What does that mean?

    23 A. It means that they should have followed my orders.

    24 Q. But they did not?

    25 A. That is why I was angry.

  6. 1 Q. Thank you. Let us go on. You said that you were

    2 informed about civilians captured and detained in the

    3 veterinary station; do you recall that?

    4 A. I do.

    5 Q. Do you remember where those civilians were?

    6 A. From Rijeka and Sofa.

    7 Q. Was there any fighting in that region?

    8 A. I think there was no fighting; people were simply

    9 arrested in their homes.

    10 Q. Where is Rijeka in relation to Stari Vitez?

    11 A. It is about one kilometre away from Stari Vitez roughly.

    12 Q. Do you know any names of people who were there?

    13 A. I think Dr Zeco Fuad, Pasaga Mujanovic, his two sons and

    14 so on.

    15 Q. After they were arrested, did they attack you from that

    16 direction?

    17 A. I do not know, you cannot say; the attack comes from the

    18 Kolonija.

    19 Q. Was anybody wounded or killed in the veterinary station?

    20 A. I do not know that.

    21 Q. You said that some civilians from Gacice were also

    22 incarcerated?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Where?

    25 A. I think they were in incarcerated in one of the schools

  7. 1 in Kolonija. I am not quite sure of that.

    2 Q. Can you tell me, were there any attacks from the

    3 direction of Gacice?

    4 A. From that direction, no.

    5 Q. You also said from the locality of Novaci, some families

    6 were in prison in Dubravica?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. After the HVO captured Novaci, were there any attacks

    9 from that direction?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Did you respond to those attacks?

    12 A. We were defending ourselves.

    13 Q. In your estimate, would those civilians have been safer

    14 in Novaci or in the school in Dubravica? Where were

    15 they safer in view of the combat operations?

    16 A. Those civilians were detained, some of them, in the

    17 school in Dubravica and some of them in several cellars

    18 in Novaci. I do not know where their safety would have

    19 been better, but they were arrested when Novaci had

    20 already been captured, when the army moved to

    21 Stari Vitez.

    22 Q. You said that in three or four months all the civilians,

    23 that is Muslims, were expelled from Vitez?

    24 A. The majority.

    25 Q. Will you tell me: how do you know that they were

  8. 1 expelled rather than having gone themselves to places

    2 where there was no fighting?

    3 A. We received reports to that effect from international

    4 organisations.

    5 Q. What reports?

    6 A. It was stated at meetings that a certain group had been

    7 expelled, that another group had been transferred and so

    8 on.

    9 Q. So you have no direct knowledge about that?

    10 A. I could not see it. I only know when the exchange took

    11 place, the exchange of those captured in the cinema and

    12 in the chess club.

    13 Q. You also said that you, Mario Cerkez, a catholic priest,

    14 and the Muslim Hadzi had to visit the checkpoints and

    15 roadblocks?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. How come you and Cerkez did not simply issue orders

    18 rather than going from one checkpoint to another?

    19 A. It was an agreement that we had that we should go there

    20 together and that we should jointly persuade people to

    21 remove the roadblocks.

    22 Q. You said "to persuade people", but that does not sound

    23 very military-like to me. Could you not issue a joint

    24 order?

    25 A. I agree with you that it was not a military kind of

  9. 1 operation.

    2 Q. Why did the priest and the Hadzi have to go? They were

    3 not part of the military structure.

    4 A. They were influential in Vitez.

    5 Q. And if you had not gone there together with the priest

    6 and the Hadzi, would the orders have been executed?

    7 A. I think they would.

    8 Q. If those orders would have been carried out, why then

    9 did they have to go with you?

    10 A. These were attempts of us to establish some kind of

    11 community amongst us, to do something together.

    12 Q. During the cross-examination, you said in answer to my

    13 assertion that Blaskic had his own responsibility within

    14 the operative zone of Central Bosnia which he was the

    15 commander of, that this was imagined so. What did you

    16 imply?

    17 A. I do not understand the question.

    18 Q. If necessary, I can find the citation from the

    19 transcript. When I asked you and mentioned that Blaskic

    20 was the commander of the operative zone of Central

    21 Bosnia, you answered that his operative zone of Central

    22 Bosnia was something imaginary, that it was not real.

    23 A. I do not remember that answer at all; it was not

    24 imaginary, it was real.

    25 Q. Let me cite the place.

  10. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I think we will find a way out with

    2 difficulty if you make comments on your own

    3 cross-examination. I am not opposed to you asking that

    4 question again, but I would like to draw your attention

    5 to the rather tricky character. You are asking a

    6 question to the witness 58 days later regarding his own

    7 answer, not an answer to a question put to the

    8 Prosecution, but in answer to a question you yourself

    9 made. I think you must deduce from the answer made by

    10 the witness at the time if he said "imaginary". I do

    11 not think we can dwell too long now on commentaries.

    12 You may not have been satisfied with the answer he made,

    13 but that was the answer he gave you, so please rephrase

    14 it otherwise. You cannot comment on your own

    15 cross-examination; it is not done. Do you understand

    16 what I am trying to say?

    17 MR. NOBILO: Yes, I do, but I did not wish to comment on my

    18 own cross-examination; I wished to elaborate on the

    19 answer of the witness. He said that it was imaginary,

    20 and I am trying to refresh his memory. If he had

    21 recalled, I would have elaborated on the answer, but if

    22 he cannot remember, I can go on and I will not come back

    23 to that question again.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: I think that the witness answers questions.

    25 Whether those answers satisfy you or not, those are the

  11. 1 rules of the game, so please proceed.

    2 MR. NOBILO: Very well, I will go on.

    3 I would like to know where your ammunition depot

    4 was in Stari Vitez?

    5 A. It was close to Lasva in Mahala.

    6 Q. In which building was it?

    7 A. It was underground.

    8 Q. It was not a building; it was a dug-out?

    9 A. Yes, it was a dug-out.

    10 Q. Will you tell me: what was the quantity of ammunition

    11 you had at your disposal at the time of the attack?

    12 A. I do not know exactly.

    13 Q. You said that a certain amount of ammunition was held in

    14 private homes.

    15 A. That was the soldiers that had certain combat sets. Of

    16 course, the ammunition should be with the man operating

    17 it, with the soldier.

    18 Q. The ammunition that was held in houses or held by the

    19 military, did you collect it in the warehouse or did you

    20 just have a record of it?

    21 A. We had a record of it.

    22 Q. When people went into battle, could they take that

    23 ammunition from their own homes or did they have to go

    24 to a central warehouse each time?

    25 A. That depended on the situation.

  12. 1 Q. Does that mean that they could go to the central

    2 warehouse but they could also take the ammunition from

    3 their own homes?

    4 A. They only had combat sets that went with the weapon they

    5 had.

    6 Q. When the attack occurred on 16th April 1993, did you

    7 have any artillery support from the BH-Army?

    8 A. At that time, I still did not have any such support.

    9 Q. Did you have mortar support?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. When did you get artillery support?

    12 A. I think it was on the second or third day that I got a

    13 little support.

    14 Q. You had a mortar, as you said. Did you target Blaskic's

    15 headquarters on 16th April?

    16 A. I do not remember.

    17 Q. Do you know what targets the RPG and the mortar were

    18 directed against on 16th April?

    19 A. I think that the RPG was not used on the first day.

    20 Q. You said that you subsequently mobilised the people who

    21 were surrounded in Stari Vitez.

    22 A. Yes, that is correct.

    23 Q. Can you tell me what was the situation as regards

    24 uniforms? Did everyone have uniforms?

    25 A. No, they did not.

  13. 1 Q. You said that women were mobilised too.

    2 A. Yes, that is correct.

    3 Q. What kind of assignments did they have?

    4 A. Women worked as nurses in infirmaries and they were

    5 cooks.

    6 Q. They did not have any direct military assignments in the

    7 narrower sense?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. When your headquarters was hit, you moved, of course.

    10 Did you mark that building in any way so that one could

    11 know that it was the headquarters?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Where the army was housed, were those buildings marked

    14 in any special ways?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. You said that you are aware that there was an offer to

    17 the civilians to leave Stari Vitez temporarily. I want

    18 to know how you learned about this offer from the HVO.

    19 A. We received an ultimatum.

    20 Q. But technically how was it done?

    21 A. Through the media, on the loudspeaker system and through

    22 UN members, members of the United Nations force.

    23 Q. While you were surrounded, was there any kind of

    24 civilian political body representing the civilians in

    25 Stari Vitez?

  14. 1 A. The Civil Defence system existed.

    2 Q. I am thinking of a political body of authority.

    3 A. No, not at the time.

    4 Q. Did civilians have any kind of representative who would

    5 represent the civilians as opposed to the military?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Who was that?

    8 A. It was the President of the SDA party, the President of

    9 the local community. Then there was Merhamet, which

    10 provided relief for the civilian population and

    11 representatives of the Civil Defence.

    12 Q. Can you mention some names who held those positions?

    13 A. Munir Kajnovic was the President of the SDA, Zara

    14 Halilovic was the President of Merhamet, a lady, Adem

    15 Jelaskovic and Edo Arnautovic were representatives of

    16 the Civil Defence. This was kind of a Civil Defence

    17 staff, I remember now.

    18 Q. This body of civilian defence, this headquarters, this

    19 staff: did you propose to them they get out; was it

    20 discussed at all?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. On 16th April 1993, can you tell us what is the farthest

    23 point that the HVO soldiers reached in their attack and

    24 during the day? Did they go back at all; can you

    25 understand this?

  15. 1 A. Yes, I understand your question. The HVO soldiers on

    2 the first day came from the church to the home of Edo

    3 Arnautovic. Across the street from his house is the

    4 house of Zvonko Mlakic. From the Mlakics, the HVO

    5 soldiers had come into Remiza settlement, the Remiza

    6 settlement near the stadium, but during the day they

    7 returned from the direction of Kolonija. HVO soldiers,

    8 they torched five or six houses near the garages, and

    9 after that, they returned. The HVO soldiers, coming

    10 from the Pavlovic houses, came to the power supply

    11 building and that is where they stayed. Those were

    12 approximately the lines that remained until the end of

    13 the war.

    14 Q. Can we therefore conclude that the HVO was returned from

    15 three directions and the front was stabilised at those

    16 points that they reached?

    17 A. All Vitez was attacked from all sides. One can say,

    18 generally speaking, that they were stopped from those

    19 directions.

    20 Q. During your statement, you said that ten civilians were

    21 shot by snipers. Did you personally see a situation

    22 when a civilian was killed by sniper fire?

    23 A. Directly, no, I did not see one.

    24 Q. You said that 15 civilians were killed "by Beba, as we

    25 called them". Did you personally see any civilians lose

  16. 1 their lives?

    2 A. Yes, when the Grizovic house was attacked. I personally

    3 took these women out of that house.

    4 Q. Did you come to that place after it was hit, or were you

    5 there before the explosion occurred?

    6 A. I came after it was hit.

    7 Q. Where is the Grizovic house?

    8 A. The Grizovic house is near the stadium and the garages,

    9 about 50 metres away from the garages, towards Kolonija.

    10 Q. Your units, where were they, if you look at the Grizovic

    11 house?

    12 A. In front of the house.

    13 Q. How near?

    14 A. 30 or 40 metres; the closest soldier was 30 or 40 metres

    15 away.

    16 Q. Is there any kind of building between that house and the

    17 closest soldiers that were stationed there?

    18 A. This is a settlement that is densely populated.

    19 Q. My question is: between the soldiers that were standing

    20 there, the soldier who was standing the closest to the

    21 Grizovic house, was there another house between the two

    22 or was it just empty?

    23 A. No, there was another house.

    24 Q. How many houses and what house?

    25 A. I am not too sure, but I am sure there were three or

  17. 1 four houses in between.

    2 Q. When you said they were hit by sniper, did you see any

    3 livestock, cattle, being hit by sniper?

    4 A. Yes, I saw horses, cows, sheep that were hit.

    5 Q. How many horses?

    6 A. Two horses were hit.

    7 Q. Cows?

    8 A. Three or four, I think.

    9 Q. Sheep?

    10 A. Ten-odd sheep.

    11 Q. How many times?

    12 A. In about ten or fifteen attempts.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, is that very important for the

    14 Defence of General Blaskic, to ascertain the number of

    15 cows that were hit? If you say no, then please

    16 continue.

    17 MR. NOBILO: It is important, your Honour.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, continue then.

    19 MR. NOBILO: It is important, but we could give more detailed

    20 explanations only to your Honours, not in this

    21 courtroom.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: You said it is important to ascertain the

    23 number of cows, sheep and horses that were killed, so

    24 continue, please.

    25 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Djidic, did you know Professor Jozic? He

  18. 1 taught at the school.

    2 A. Are you referring to Boro Jozic?

    3 Q. Yes, Emira from Vitez is his wife.

    4 A. Yes, I knew him.

    5 Q. Did you know him well?

    6 A. Quite well.

    7 Q. Do you know that he was the Chairman of the Commission

    8 for Exchanges in the time of encirclement?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Do you know that he was killed by sniper fire in front

    11 of his house?

    12 A. No, I did not know that.

    13 Q. Do you know that in front of that house, that is the

    14 grey building near the bus station in Partisanska

    15 Street, a girl called Amela, 20 years old, was killed by

    16 sniper fire from old Vitez? Pavlovic, 18 years old? Did

    17 you know that 103 persons, most of them civilians, were

    18 killed in Vitez by sniper from old Vitez?

    19 A. I do not know that.

    20 Q. Did you ever issue such orders?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Did you have snipers?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. How many?

    25 A. One.

  19. 1 Q. Was there any discussions related to snipers when you

    2 talked to UNPROFOR?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What was this about?

    5 A. Mainly it was we who insisted, we explained about

    6 snipers of the HVO that were hitting and had we been

    7 asked whether we had a sniper, we would have showed it.

    8 It was an old sniper, and we mostly used it for fighting

    9 against snipers.

    10 Q. Did UNPROFOR inform you that General Blaskic on

    11 20th April 1993 ordered all HVO snipers to be collected,

    12 closed up in a warehouse and to sign these orders and he

    13 also authorised UNPROFOR to kill whoever fired a sniper

    14 and who had a sniper?

    15 A. I heard something about this warning that was issued to

    16 the HVO, but I do not know about this concretely,

    17 specifically.

    18 Q. So you did not hear about Blaskic's orders to kill any

    19 people who were shooting a sniper by the HVO?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Who were firing snipers in your army?

    22 A. It was a refugee; I cannot remember who he was.

    23 I cannot remember the name.

    24 Q. Omanovic Hida, was that the name?

    25 A. No, I do not think so.

  20. 1 Q. Katarovic?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. You said that you had a mortar. Could soldiers use

    4 these mortars whichever way they wanted or did you have

    5 to issue orders?

    6 A. It had to be under my orders because we had very few

    7 grenades.

    8 Q. Did you ever issue orders to operate with a mortar

    9 against civilian targets?

    10 A. No, never.

    11 Q. Did subordinates ever do that without your knowledge?

    12 A. I am not too sure, but I do not think they did, because

    13 really we had very few grenades.

    14 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, your Honours, I kindly request

    15 that we look at a videocassette now. These are

    16 atrocities that are videotaped, so if there are any

    17 people in the audience who cannot take that, I would

    18 request them to leave. We are not happy to show this,

    19 but this is a mortar that killed several people in

    20 Vitez.

    21 I kindly request the technicians to show the

    22 videocassettes.

    23 As far as the interpreters are concerned, we gave

    24 a text and you will hear the sound from the videotape,

    25 so kindly interpret it directly.

  21. 1 Perhaps the lights could be turned off.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Before giving you the floor and before

    3 switching off the lights, first the Chamber will decide

    4 whether we are going to allow the showing of this tape.

    5 (Pause). At the request of my colleague Mr. Shahabudden,

    6 I am going to ask you: are you going to ask for this

    7 tape to be admitted into evidence, Mr. Nobilo?

    8 MR. NOBILO: Yes, your Honour. It is evidence, yes.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: I will give you the floor in a moment,

    10 Mr. Prosecutor. The Trial Chamber does not wish to

    11 exclude the public; it was correct of you to issue the

    12 warning. It is up to the public gallery to decide

    13 whether they will watch or not.

    14 Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any objection?

    15 MR. KEHOE: Again, I have two issues, your Honour. The first

    16 is the source of the film. The second is a presentation

    17 from counsel as to the relevance of this film, given the

    18 defendant and these charges.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Your objections are sustained. Will you

    20 please tell us, Mr. Nobilo, the source of this document,

    21 and then --

    22 MR. NOBILO: Why?

    23 JUDGE JORDA: It is relevant and in the interest of the

    24 Defence of your client. The source first.

    25 MR. NOBILO: As far as the source of the film is concerned,

  22. 1 we would like to stick to the positions we had before.

    2 We will indicate the source in the course of the

    3 proceeding that will be conducted by the Defence. As

    4 for the relevance, this is a mortar shell which is

    5 assumed to have come from Stari Vitez and killed eight

    6 children on a basketball ground at a time when there was

    7 no fighting. As after that date, let us not go into the

    8 details. An offensive and attack took place against

    9 Stari Vitez of its own initiative, but we will be able

    10 to link the two together later.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, are you satisfied with this

    12 answer? I did not understand very well the first answer

    13 regarding the source, the origin of this tape, this

    14 video. I understand that you do not wish to indicate a

    15 source, but I did not understand when you intend to tell

    16 us. Maybe it is a question of translation. Could you

    17 repeat your answer regarding the source?

    18 MR. NOBILO: The source is the local television, but we will

    19 indicate in specific terms all that is necessary to

    20 prove the authenticity of this videotape in the part of

    21 the -- in the Defence case, so we ask that the Trial

    22 Chamber admit this evidence under the same conditions as

    23 it has already admitted other exhibits which the Defence

    24 has tendered in the course of the cross-examination;

    25 that is on condition that the Defence asserts the

  23. 1 grounds later.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. The judges agree with this manner

    3 of proceeding.

    4 Mr. Prosecutor, are you agreeable?

    5 MR. KEHOE: Again, your Honour, Mr. President and

    6 your Honours, we still have the issue of relevance. Is

    7 it the position of the Defence that Mr. Blaskic is

    8 entitled to commit war crimes in retaliation or in

    9 response.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, you cannot intervene with the

    11 strategy of the Defence. I think that you put a

    12 pertinent question; the Defence has answered it. I have

    13 also asked regarding the relevance of the shooting of

    14 animals, but the Defence said it was relevant; therefore

    15 we can understand the link that was referred to,

    16 therefore the objection is rejected. In that case, we

    17 will see the video. Turn down the lights and we will

    18 ask the Technical Department to show us the video.

    19 Mr. Registrar, does the Technical Department have

    20 the tape? I apologise for interfering. We have still

    21 not decided whether we will admit it.

    22 THE REGISTRAR: The instructions given at the beginning of

    23 the trial, the parties have been asked to submit tapes

    24 directly to the technicians.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, thank you. Let us continue with

  24. 1 the viewing of this tape.

    2 (Videotape played)

    3 "On 10th June 1993 about 8.40 pm on Podgradina

    4 opstina Vitez mortar shells, calibre 120 millimetres,

    5 shot from positions held by the army of the BH. The

    6 following children were killed: Boris Mariko Anticevic,

    7 son of Marka, killed on 10th June 1993; Drazen Cecura,

    8 the son of Stipe, born on 8th July 1978 in Travnik, a

    9 Croat, killed on 10th June 1993; Dragan Ramljak, the son

    10 of Vlade, born on 26th June 1978 in Travnik, a Croat,

    11 killed on 10th June 1993; Milan Garic, the son of Milka,

    12 born on 25th October 1981 in Vitez, a Croat, killed on

    13 10th June 1993; Velimir Grebenar, son of Pere, born on

    14 4th March 1981 in Travnik, a Croat, killed on 10th June

    15 1993; Avgustina Grebenar, daughter of Pere, born on

    16 1st December 1984 in Travnik, a Croat, died in hospital

    17 in Nova Bila as a result of the wounds sustained on

    18 10th June 1993; Sanja Krizanovic, daughter of Mirka,

    19 born on 14th July 1978 in Travnik, a Croat, died in the

    20 hospital in Nova Bila as a result of the wounds

    21 sustained on 10th June 1993; Sanja Garic, daughter of

    22 Milka, born on 10th October 1975 in Travnik, Croat, died

    23 in the hospital in Split on 24th June 1993 as a result

    24 of the wounds sustained.

    25 In addition to the mentioned children that were

  25. 1 killed by the shelling of Vitez on 10th June 1993, the

    2 following children were injured: Ivan Garic, born in

    3 1978, Blazenka Cecura, born in 1981; Marina Garic born

    4 in 1983; Damir Garic born in 1983. The children who

    5 died in the hospitals in Nova Bila and in Split were

    6 buried subsequently."

    7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, that would be all. Mr. Djidic, did

    8 you order this shelling?

    9 A. Your Honour, may I object? I did not see the entire

    10 video film. I saw most of it though, and if I followed

    11 what I heard correctly -- I did not see all of it -- it

    12 was said that it was 120-millimetre calibre of the

    13 mortar shell, and Podgradina is so close to Stari Vitez

    14 that such a calibre cannot be used at such short range.

    15 I did not even have that calibre of shell.

    16 MR. NOBILO: That would be all, your Honour. Mr. President,

    17 we have just concluded our cross-examination.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor? You have some clarifications

    19 to ask of your witness, Mr. Prosecutor?

    20 MR. KEHOE: Just very quickly, Mr. President. I will get

    21 through it.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Are they questions which can be put before the

    23 break, if I understand well?

    24 MR. KEHOE: It might run just a little over the break, your

    25 Honour. If your Honour wants to take a break now I can

  26. 1 get through it quickly. It will also give me an

    2 opportunity to put some of the Defence exhibits just

    3 introduced onto the easels, so it might facilitate

    4 things.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, in that case we will resume work at

    6 11.20.

    7 (11.00 am)

    8 (A short break)

    9 (11.30 am)

    10 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Will you please have

    11 the accused brought in?

    12 (Accused brought in)

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?

    14 Re-examined by MR. KEHOE

    15 Q. Thank you Mr. President. With the assistance of

    16 Mr. Dubuisson, I would like to turn our attention to some

    17 of the Defence exhibits that have been discussed during

    18 the cross-examination of Mr. Djidic, starting first with

    19 D19. Again, there has been no translation of this, so

    20 it is just an HVO document coming from the Defence.

    21 I think it is easier if it is taken out of the plastic.

    22 Mr. Djidic, take a look at this document; this is a

    23 document that was discussed during cross-examination

    24 concerning an alleged murder that took place on

    25 17th January 1993 with the investigation taking place on

  27. 1 18th January 1993. Is that correct?

    2 A. I think it is.

    3 Q. Just take another look at it.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me, it is not easily visible, at least

    5 on my monitor. Perhaps you see better? Should I press

    6 a button somewhere to make it clearer? Go on,

    7 Mr. Prosecutor. We will make do.

    8 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Djidic, again just

    9 to correct myself, this reflects an incident that took

    10 place on 17th January 1993 and that was investigated by

    11 at least an HVO military judge and Prosecutor on

    12 18th January 1993. Does that document not reflect those

    13 facts?

    14 A. Yes, that is what it says in the document.

    15 Q. So this document indicates that as at January of 1993,

    16 the HVO had in place a military structure to investigate

    17 alleged crimes and to investigate those crimes quickly,

    18 did they not?

    19 A. Yes, that is so.

    20 Q. Moving away from this document, your Honour, there were

    21 some questions concerning an article that was reflected

    22 in D25. Again your Honours there is no translation, it

    23 is in Bosnian Serbo-Croatian, and it is an interview of

    24 General Alagic. Do you recall this article, sir?

    25 A. Alagic, yes.

  28. 1 Q. In the article -- if you could, Claudius -- there is no

    2 need to put it on the ELMO; just give it to Mr. Djidic --

    3 there is discussion in the article about resupplying

    4 Stari Vitez, and Defence counsel asked you whether or

    5 not the UN had given any ammunition at all to

    6 Stari Vitez during the siege. Did they?

    7 A. No, no.

    8 Q. Where did you get ammunition from, or resupply?

    9 A. This statement made by Mr. Alagic that, through friends

    10 in the UN, he had provided some ammunition, is not

    11 correct. No one supplied Stari Vitez with any

    12 ammunition on the part of the UN members. I did, on one

    13 occasion, receive a small quantity of ammunition, but

    14 along the Lasva river, it was sent to me. Who sent that

    15 ammunition, I do not know.

    16 Q. Mr. Djidic, did you ever get any ammunition in any

    17 quantities from any humanitarian aid organisations

    18 outside the United Nations?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Mr. Djidic, in the discussions, was there any private

    21 organisation that provided you with any ammunition?

    22 A. I said that it was not provided by any United Nations

    23 organisation.

    24 Q. What I am asking you is: did you on one occasion get

    25 some from a private organisation? Without identifying

  29. 1 the private organisation, did you get any from a private

    2 organisation?

    3 A. I did get this ammunition that I referred to, that came

    4 down the Lasva river, from a private organisation.

    5 Q. But it was not the UN. Was it the Red Cross?

    6 A. No, it was not the UN or the Red Cross.

    7 Q. By Red Cross I am referring to the International Red

    8 Cross.

    9 A. That is right. I understood you.

    10 Q. Okay. Let us turn our attention to some Defence

    11 exhibits, starting with the exhibit to the left, D27.

    12 If I can approach this exhibit, Mr. President? Staying

    13 with Defence exhibit 27, and in this map Mr. Nobilo drew

    14 lines concerning where the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    15 was and the lines with the HVO; is that correct?

    16 A. This line (indicates) was after 16th April and it

    17 changed. I can draw in exactly where the HVO forces

    18 were and the army forces.

    19 Q. This is a Defence exhibit, so why do you not point to

    20 that, sir?

    21 A. What I have drawn is that, roughly, that is it, more or

    22 less (indicates), but please, if I can ask you for your

    23 attention, the HVO was in the village of Zabilje. The

    24 HVO was in the village of Krcevine. The HVO was in the

    25 village of Jardo. The HVO was in the villages of Ahmici

  30. 1 and Pirici. The HVO was in the district of Safredini,

    2 and the HVO was in the urban part of the town,

    3 throughout the city centre. Similarly, the HVO had a

    4 barracks in the mountain lodge called Zabrdje. It is

    5 not on the map, it is above Krusica.

    6 Q. Let us point to the area where there is a hook in the

    7 map and that is the area Grbavica; is that right?

    8 A. Yes, that is the Grbavica settlement.

    9 Q. In the latter part -- you say August/September 1993, did

    10 the HVO take this area?

    11 A. Yes, it did. At the end of August or the beginning of

    12 September, I am not quite sure, the HVO captured the

    13 whole of Grbavica and burnt it down.

    14 Q. Okay. Did these lines exist at all prior to the HVO

    15 attack on the morning of 16th April 1993?

    16 A. No, they did not. A part of the HVO lines were

    17 regulated in the village of Krcevine. That

    18 line remained until the end of the war.

    19 Q. These particular lines though, this particular fighting

    20 took place between the HVO and the Armija prior to

    21 16th April 1993?

    22 A. Could you please repeat the question?

    23 Q. Was there fighting taking place between the two armies

    24 prior to 16th April 1993?

    25 A. In the broader area, in this broader area (indicates),

  31. 1 no.

    2 Q. Several maps have been discussed by Defence counsel and

    3 I believe the first one is D21, where, I believe this is

    4 November 1992, there were some villages circled where

    5 Territorial Defence units were located; is that right?

    6 A. Yes, that is right.

    7 Q. Are there soldiers that are working 24 hours a day in

    8 these particular villages, waiting for an attack?

    9 A. They were soldiers who were working in factories, and

    10 when they completed their work, they would keep duty in

    11 their villages, guard duty in their villages.

    12 Q. How many Territorial Defence soldiers did you have in

    13 the entire Vitez municipality?

    14 MR. HAYMAN: Vague as to time, your Honour.

    15 MR. KEHOE: Any time. During this timeframe. How many

    16 Territorial Defence soldiers were there during November

    17 1992?

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, there is an objection from the

    19 Defence. Can you formulate that objection please,

    20 Mr. Hayman? I did not understand very well what you

    21 said. I understand it is an objection that you have.

    22 MR. HAYMAN: The question is vague as to time. We do not

    23 know what the time reference is to.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, can you answer?

    25 MR. KEHOE: I will stay with the Defence exhibit. During

  32. 1 November 1992 as exhibited in Defence exhibit 21, how

    2 many Territorial Defence soldiers did you have in the

    3 entire municipality?

    4 A. I cannot recall the exact number. We were in the

    5 process of forming a brigade at the time.

    6 Q. After the brigade was formed, can you give us an

    7 approximate number how many there were in the entire

    8 municipality?

    9 A. Active duty troops that went to the front consisted of

    10 about 1,000 to 1,500 men. I am not quite sure about

    11 that.

    12 Q. This included men that went to the front and were

    13 fighting against the Serbs on the front?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. This other map, I guess, is in 1992/1993, October 1992

    16 to 1993, that reflects the 325th -- excuse me?

    17 A. As far as I can remember, this was December 1992 and

    18 January 1993; that is what it says on the map anyway.

    19 Q. I stand corrected; it does say December 1992/January

    20 1993. This reflects various villages that supplied the

    21 brigades, or the 325th Brigade, with headquarters, at

    22 Poculice and Krusica; is that right?

    23 A. Yes, these are the localities which supplied the members

    24 of the 325th Brigade.

    25 Q. Taking these two maps together, Defence counsel

  33. 1 indicated that he was attempting to demonstrate that the

    2 HVO was surrounded during this period of time, and were

    3 these soldiers sitting there just surrounding Vitez,

    4 waiting to attack the HVO in Vitez?

    5 A. No, certainly not. When you see the distribution of the

    6 HVO troops and their barracks, then the picture becomes

    7 quite clear.

    8 MR. KEHOE: If I may, your Honour --

    9 MR. HAYMAN: So the record is clear, your Honour, I believe

    10 the last exhibit referred to by counsel and the witness

    11 but not in the record is map D23.

    12 MR. KEHOE: That is correct, your Honour, this map is D23;

    13 the map of the Territorial Defence is D21.

    14 Your Honours, this is the top portion of exhibit 29 as

    15 received in evidence, the map that is leaning on the

    16 wall behind your Honours. This is just a xeroxed top of

    17 that.

    18 Mr. Djidic, using this red pen, show us where the

    19 HVO was located in and around Vitez. Mark all the

    20 villages, all the locations.

    21 A. That is the town of Vitez itself; the school in

    22 Dubravica; the bungalow in Nadioci; the hunting lodge

    23 near Novaci and near the petrol station Kaleb; then in

    24 Krusica, the Ribnjak Hotel and the Lovac Hotel; the

    25 mountain lodge at Zabrdje; Bistrovo between Krusica and

  34. 1 Zabrdje where they had exercise grounds for the training

    2 in private weekend homes, from which the owners were

    3 thrown out by the HVO. In the town of Vitez itself, in

    4 the building of the police station, the regional HVO

    5 police was headquartered. And in the old school, that

    6 was where the HVO military police was based, about 50

    7 metres from there, in the building of the cinema, the

    8 HVO brigade command.

    9 In the building of the hotel, the command of the

    10 region of Central Bosnia of the HVO. Then Mali Mosulj,

    11 Veceriska, and next to Veceriska is the factory where

    12 the special taskforce was based for protecting the

    13 factory. A large unit was based in Nova Bila.

    14 Q. Let us go back to the factory. The factory, where is

    15 that located? Where is that unit in the factory?

    16 A. It is between the village of Veceriska and the village

    17 of Gacice.

    18 Q. In cross-examination, Defence counsel asked you about an

    19 alleged incident where some Muslim apparently attempted

    20 to damage an HVO facility in Gacice; do you recall

    21 that? Was there an HVO facility in Gacice, or was it

    22 Donje Veceriska?

    23 A. It was in Donje Veceriska.

    24 Q. You were talking about Nova Bila. Were there any

    25 other facilities?

  35. 1 A. Nova Bila is not in the territory of the Vitez

    2 municipality, but it is a factory of the timber

    3 industry, where the HVO army was accommodated. I do not

    4 know exactly how many men were there.

    5 Q. Any other locations where the HVO had a military

    6 installation other than these? Just in this general

    7 area.

    8 A. There were other locations, but it is interesting to

    9 note that all the units formed in the Vitez municipality

    10 came from specific villages which had a mixed

    11 population, such as, for instance, Dubravica, Ahmici,

    12 and Nadioci; Veceriska, Krusica, Rijeka --

    13 Q. Let us distinguish these. You had the pink or the red

    14 down as military facilities. Now you are mentioning

    15 villages similar to Defence exhibits 21 and 23 that

    16 supplied the HVO. You mentioned some of those villages

    17 and one I think will be Dubravica, another one was

    18 Ahmici; what other villages supplied the HVO?

    19 A. These barracks that I have indicated, the ones in

    20 Zabrdje, Dubravica, the town of Vitez itself, and, of

    21 course, they also came from nearby places around these.

    22 Q. Krusica? Whereabouts?

    23 A. I am talking about the towns of Busovaca, Travnik,

    24 Novi Travnik and so on and, of course, Krusica as well,

    25 which had three facilities for the accommodation of

  36. 1 troops.

    2 Q. Would it be fair to say that all of these villages in

    3 this map supplied troops to the HVO in the Lasva valley?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Would it be fair to say that -- to encompass this entire

    6 area and say they all supply troops to the HVO?

    7 A. Yes, the whole area, the entire municipality of Vitez.

    8 Q. This map does not include the entire municipality of

    9 Vitez, does it?

    10 A. This map does cover the entire territory of the

    11 municipality.

    12 Q. This entire map supplies the HVO. However, Senez is not

    13 in the Vitez municipality.

    14 A. No, it is not in the Vitez municipality.

    15 Q. In discussing that map and in discussing Defence

    16 exhibits 21 and 23, was it in the interests of the

    17 Bosnian Muslims to be preparing to attack and to attack

    18 the HVO?

    19 A. No, that was never in their interest.

    20 Q. Why?

    21 A. First of all, at the beginning of my testimony, I said

    22 that we in Vitez, before the elections, lived very well

    23 with our neighbours.

    24 Secondly, an aggression was carried out against

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Serbs, and we joined in the

  37. 1 Defence.

    2 Thirdly, we had orders, under no circumstances

    3 were we to clash with the HVO, and we followed those

    4 orders to the letter.

    5 Q. Do you know why that order was given not to clash with

    6 the HVO?

    7 A. It was because of all these other things that

    8 I mentioned in the interest of good neighbourly

    9 relations, and attempts for us to jointly fight against

    10 the same enemy until the liberation of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    12 Q. Who was that joint enemy?

    13 A. They were the Serbs.

    14 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I could just move to a xeroxed

    15 copy of what has already been introduced in evidence as

    16 Prosecutor's exhibit 45. Prior to doing that,

    17 Mr. Dubuisson, with your permission -- your Honour, what

    18 is the Prosecutor's next number?

    19 A. Mr. Gregory, I would like to ask your Honours for me to

    20 correct the last words I uttered. When I said that it

    21 was the Serbs that had attacked, I should like to

    22 correct myself, and say the attacks were carried out by

    23 the Chetniks, because all Serbs are not Chetniks.

    24 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. Djidic.

    25 Your Honour, the exhibit, I believe, is

  38. 1 Prosecutor's exhibit 83.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: I would like us to hear your whole response,

    3 Mr. Kehoe. We are not going to repeat the whole

    4 examination. It is a replica, based on the

    5 cross-examination of the Defence, so let us be careful.

    6 Continue, please.

    7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, your Honours, and I will be brief. I was

    8 just attempting to clarify some issues that came through

    9 in cross-examination.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. Then continue.

    11 MR. KEHOE: If I may approach the easel, your Honour, with a

    12 xerox copy of Prosecutor's exhibit 45, which will be

    13 45A. Using Prosecutor's exhibit 45A, you were asked on

    14 cross-examination about the location of your

    15 headquarters, the two locations of your headquarters and

    16 also the location of your ammunition depot. I believe

    17 you noted that on the exhibit that is a larger exhibit

    18 than this. Do you recall that, sir?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Using a red pen, could you locate on this exhibit the

    21 two locations of your headquarters, marking the first

    22 one as 1 and the second one as 2.

    23 A. That is it (indicating).

    24 Q. Using the green, could you please mark the location of

    25 your ammunition depot?

  39. 1 A. That is it (indicating).

    2 Q. Lastly, with the red marker, could you please outline

    3 what you can see on here are your trenches, the

    4 defensive positions, that you built up over time.

    5 A. In the war, right?

    6 Q. Yes. The rest of Stari Vitez is cut off from this; is

    7 that correct?

    8 A. Yes, that is correct. A bit is missing.

    9 Q. Looking at this particular exhibit, you were asked some

    10 questions on cross-examination concerning the shooting

    11 of Marko Prskalo and another person that were at

    12 negotiations at BritBat that took place in front of the

    13 hotel Vitez marked by exhibit A; do you recall that?

    14 A. Yes, I remember that.

    15 Q. There is an entrance to the hotel Vitez here; is that

    16 right?

    17 A. The Vitez hotel had a few entrances. The main entrance

    18 was on this side (indicating).

    19 Q. From your frontline, did you have every entrance in and

    20 out of the hotel Vitez covered?

    21 A. Yes, we had them covered.

    22 Q. Did you have the back side covered as well as the front

    23 or just the front.

    24 MR. HAYMAN: Asked and answered, your Honour.

    25 A. We did not cover a single entrance, only --

  40. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Objection sustained.

    2 MR. KEHOE: What exactly did you have? He is explaining his

    3 answer.

    4 A. We did not cover a single entrance into the hotel, only

    5 part of the street in the vicinity of the entrance to

    6 the hotel.

    7 Q. You are marking on the exhibit with a red marker next to

    8 the marker A.

    9 A. Next to the entrance. I think there is about 30 metres

    10 there. Here to here, from the street to the entrance to

    11 the hotel (indicating).

    12 Q. Based on this drawing, could your soldiers here cover

    13 the back entrance on the back street?

    14 A. I cannot hear the interpreter well. Better now.

    15 Q. Based on the drawing that you just made on this street,

    16 could your line cover the entrance on the back street

    17 coming into the hotel Vitez?

    18 A. No, we could not cover that.

    19 Q. Okay, sir. Have a seat.

    20 You were asked some questions on cross-examination

    21 about the offer of the HVO for civilians to leave

    22 Stari Vitez. Do you recall those questions?

    23 A. Those were ultimatums to surrender and to evacuate

    24 civilians.

    25 Q. Had the shelling of Stari Vitez already started before

  41. 1 these ultimatums were given to you?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. You were asked in cross-examination about whether or not

    4 it would have been better for civilians to be taken from

    5 Novaci and secured in the Dubravica school; do you

    6 recall those questions?

    7 A. Yes, I recall them.

    8 Q. Would it have been better for those civilians if their

    9 homes had not been burnt in the first place?

    10 A. That is right, it would have been better had they not

    11 been attacked at all.

    12 Q. Would that likewise be true of all the villages in the

    13 Lasva valley? Would it not have been better for those

    14 civilians if their houses had not been attacked and

    15 burned in the first place?

    16 A. Absolutely --

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Please do not make any comments; just put

    18 questions. If you have something to say to the witness,

    19 ask him a question.

    20 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.

    21 You were asked some questions about ammunition and

    22 houses by the Defence counsel; do you remember that?

    23 A. Yes, I remember that.

    24 Q. You were also asked questions about ammunition in your

    25 ammunition depot. Do you recall that?

  42. 1 A. Yes, I recall that.

    2 Q. You also said that ammunition was taken by soldiers to

    3 their individual homes.

    4 A. Ammunition is given out together with rifles.

    5 Q. Did each soldier have large stores of ammunition in his

    6 home?

    7 A. No, that is not correct.

    8 Q. What is correct?

    9 A. It is correct to say that they had about 100 bullets per

    10 person.

    11 Q. Mr. Djidic, Defence counsel asked you some questions

    12 concerning orders given by Blaskic concerning sniper

    13 attacks; is that right?

    14 A. I remember that.

    15 Q. Did the sniper attacks continue -- the sniper shooting

    16 continue through the 11-month siege?

    17 A. There were short periods of time when HVO snipers did

    18 not operate really, but most of the time, throughout the

    19 war, snipers were in operation; that is to say in 1993.

    20 Q. You mentioned some individuals during your direct

    21 examination that were shot by sniper attacks. With the

    22 assistance of the usher, I would like to show you a

    23 photograph. (Handed). Do you recognise those two

    24 people, Mr. Djidic?

    25 A. Yes, I recognise them.

  43. 1 Q. Who are they?

    2 A. These are a husband and wife. I think they were killed

    3 in June 1993, by sniper shooting. They were around 70

    4 years old, they were in their garden, and they were

    5 killed within one hour only.

    6 Q. Were they soldiers fighting in trenches, Mr. Djidic, or

    7 were they civilians?

    8 A. They were civilians. I already said they were over 70,

    9 I believe. When they were killed they were in their

    10 garden. They were doing something, I do not know what.

    11 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, may I have one moment? (Pause).

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor? The judges would like to

    13 see the following -- that is we would like to ask you to

    14 remain within the bounds of the cross-examination,

    15 please. Your reply, or at least that is the wish of the

    16 judges, that your reply sticks strictly to new elements

    17 that arose during the cross-examination, which means two

    18 things: first, you must not make the witness restate all

    19 that he has already said, because we have already been

    20 listening to this witness for several days, and only new

    21 elements are of interest to the judges, not elements

    22 which were already indicated. That is the observation

    23 of the judges. Continue, Mr. Prosecutor.

    24 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I have completed my redirect

    25 examination and just ask the court to move into evidence

  44. 1 exhibits 84, 85 and the map, which is 45A, the top sheet

    2 which is a xerox copy of an exhibit that is already in

    3 evidence.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Which are they? I was told that it was 85; is

    5 that correct? So the small photographs will be admitted

    6 as Prosecution exhibits number?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: The small photographs are document 85; the

    8 map which is up there on the board is 85A, and the one

    9 below is 84.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Which is the origin of exhibit 85,

    11 Mr. Prosecutor, that is the photograph of civilians, the

    12 husband and wife killed?

    13 MR. KEHOE: The origin of that photograph, your Honour, are

    14 photographs given to us by the Republic of

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I believe there is one correction

    16 concerning what Mr. Dubuisson said, I believe the map

    17 facing us on the easel is 45A and I believe you said

    18 85A. I am not sure if it was in the translation.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: No, it is 45A, sorry.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Have you finished, Mr. Prosecutor?

    21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, your Honour.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mr. Nobilo?

    23 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I am sorry to take the floor once

    24 again --

    25 JUDGE JORDA: In principle, I do not think you can have the

  45. 1 floor again, but I will consult my colleagues.

    2 (Pause). Mr. Nobilo, the Trial Chamber will abide by the

    3 principle it has established. This is a witness of the

    4 Prosecution; the Prosecution examined him, you

    5 cross-examined and the Prosecution had a redirect,

    6 therefore you do not have the right to speak again.

    7 I will ask my colleagues whether they have any questions

    8 to put to the witness.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, we respect that. We would simply

    10 like to note that the witness has changed his testimony

    11 with respect to sources of ammunition and so in effect

    12 we were not able to effectively cross-examine him about

    13 his earlier testimony, because he now changed his

    14 testimony on redirect examination. I simply wish to

    15 state --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, the Trial Chamber has taken a

    17 decision. The Trial Chamber knows how to read the

    18 transcript. We have had four and a half days of

    19 testimony and now it is up to the Trial Chamber to

    20 decide that the witness has been examined in direct,

    21 cross-examined and there was a redirect. I think there

    22 has to be a certain order and certain rules.

    23 If the witness has changed his testimony, the

    24 judges will see that and I assume you can refer to that

    25 in your closing statement.

  46. 1 It is now the turn of my colleagues if they wish

    2 to put questions to the witness.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Djidic, in the course of your testimony,

    4 I think it was on Tuesday 28th, you referred to an

    5 official ceremony when General Blaskic was present, and

    6 at which a speech was made by Dario Kordic, a speech

    7 that you did not like at all because -- I am almost

    8 citing what you said -- "he rejected coexistence between

    9 the communities in Bosnia and claimed the right to

    10 Bosnia solely for the Croatian nation." That is in the

    11 transcript, the English transcript. Can you tell us

    12 what was the exact role of General Blaskic at that

    13 official ceremony that you described to us?

    14 A. Mr. Blaskic was present and he did not speak. Kordic

    15 spoke, Santic spoke, Cerkez spoke, and in his speech,

    16 Kordic said, as far as Herceg-Bosna is concerned, that

    17 which you asked me about in connection with Bosnia, so

    18 he said that in connection with Herceg-Bosna.

    19 Q. The others who spoke at that ceremony, did they repeat

    20 the same propositions as Kordic supported?

    21 A. No.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: Then, later on, --

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Can we have the translation of what the

    24 witness said? I think he said no.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: During that ceremony, were the same

  47. 1 propositions made by other people, by politicians, or

    2 military men; were the same statements and claims on

    3 Herceg-Bosna exclusively for the Croats and the ending

    4 of Muslim presence there -- were the same propositions

    5 set forth by others?

    6 A. Yes, that is correct, but they did not repeat what

    7 Kordic had said. He was the most extremist of all, and

    8 all the statements were similar in connection with

    9 Herceg-Bosna.

    10 Q. In other words, it was a policy that was pursued and not

    11 an isolated case that was evidenced during that

    12 ceremony.

    13 A. Yes, that is correct. The speeches were welcomed by a

    14 lot of applause.

    15 Q. Did the media support these same claims following this

    16 ceremony?

    17 A. Yes, before the ceremony and after the ceremony.

    18 Q. Were there any precise measures taken to realise these

    19 claims or what has been known as ethnic cleansing?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. What were these measures and procedures?

    22 A. These were political procedures by the HDZ concerning

    23 that which I spoke of. The establishment of HVO

    24 government which belonged to a single nation, a single

    25 ethnic group, the elimination of Muslims from

  48. 1 government, and the implementation of all those things

    2 which related to the political and military

    3 establishment of a state within a state, that is to say

    4 Herceg-Bosna within Bosnia.

    5 Q. In your testimony also on the 28th in the afternoon in

    6 the French transcript, page 721, you added that places

    7 of worship, Muslim places of worship, were particularly

    8 and deliberately destroyed, and not only the houses and

    9 the property of the Muslims, and you stated that this

    10 was a pre-established and concerted plan that was being

    11 implemented. Perhaps you could give us the indicators

    12 which led you to make such a conclusion that this was an

    13 established plan, not only an armed conflict that

    14 results in mutual destruction or reciprocal destruction

    15 on both sides.

    16 A. Yes, I shall try to explain this to you. The places of

    17 worship of the Muslims were desecrated before the war,

    18 during the war and after the war, that is to say even

    19 after a cease-fire had been signed with the HVO, and the

    20 objective was to destroy the history of the Muslims, and

    21 proof of the existence of Muslims in this territory.

    22 This can be seen even now everywhere.

    23 Q. What would you wish to imply when you say "now and

    24 everywhere"?

    25 A. No, also when you look at Bosnia, specifically Central

  49. 1 Bosnia in Vitez, you can see destroyed places of worship

    2 because they have not been repaired yet.

    3 Q. In connection with the incident of the shell that was

    4 shown to us on video today, did this incident, as far as

    5 you know, take place before the destruction of those

    6 places of worship and civilian homes, or did it take

    7 place after that?

    8 A. The destruction in Central Bosnia lasted 11 months. The

    9 attacks on Stari Vitez were underway for 11 months, not

    10 every day though; that is to say that there was

    11 destruction before and after the incident that you

    12 mentioned.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEN: Mr. Djidic, you described the siege of

    15 Stari Vitez and you told us that it endured for 11

    16 months. You also indicated that during that period,

    17 there were some Croats in Stari Vitez. Did they remain

    18 until the end of the siege?

    19 A. Yes, they did, part of them. Part of the Croats had

    20 left Stari Vitez before the attack on Stari Vitez. Part

    21 of the Croats left when the exchange took place of the

    22 civilians detained in the cinema. A smaller part left

    23 then.

    24 During the conflict itself in Stari Vitez, about

    25 45 Croats remained and three Serbs too. Most of them

  50. 1 still live in Stari Vitez.

    2 Q. Did the Croats and the three Serbs who remained in

    3 Stari Vitez participate in the resistance offered by

    4 Stari Vitez to the attacks against Stari Vitez?

    5 A. No, they did not.

    6 Q. Could you say whether any of the houses belonging to

    7 Croats and Serbs in Stari Vitez were damaged?

    8 A. Yes, they were damaged.

    9 Q. About what proportion of those houses would you say were

    10 damaged, half or a quarter, or a third?

    11 A. Perhaps a quarter.

    12 Q. I ask you to turn to another phase of the evidence,

    13 during which you referred to what you described as the

    14 expulsion of Muslims from the Vitez area proper, and an

    15 issue was raised as to whether they had been expelled or

    16 whether they left voluntarily. Do you remember that

    17 phase of your evidence?

    18 A. I think I do remember that, and it is true that people

    19 were expelled. A small number of people left

    20 voluntarily; however the majority were expelled.

    21 Q. Could you say whether any of those Muslims who you say

    22 were expelled returned to Vitez after the siege was

    23 lifted?

    24 A. No, no one has ever returned to Vitez.

    25 Q. One last question relating to the video clip which

  51. 1 Mr. Nobilo showed us towards the end of his

    2 cross-examination. When he was asked by the President,

    3 he indicated that those clips had been taken by a local

    4 television station, I think. Did any TV station enter

    5 Stari Vitez during the 11-month period of the siege?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Where did they come from?

    8 A. Most of them were foreigners.

    9 Q. Do you have any clips or are you aware of the existence

    10 of any clips, video clips, taken by those TV stations of

    11 occurrences within Stari Vitez?

    12 A. I have some video clips from a joint meeting when

    13 Mr. Petkovic came to Stari Vitez, as well as

    14 Mr. Halilovic, with their teams, and I have a video clip

    15 from the funeral of 105 people who were buried in

    16 Stari Vitez. I gave the Prosecutor this videocassette.

    17 I do not know if it was admitted as evidence.

    18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEN: Thank you.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad, you have another question?

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Djidic, during your stay in Vitez, you were

    21 able to note to what extent it was possible to know what

    22 was happening in the surrounding villages, to what

    23 extent could one hear the explosions and to be au

    24 courant as to what was happening throughout the valley?

    25 A. Yes, one could notice when bombings and shellings took

  52. 1 place.

    2 Q. Up to what distance?

    3 A. To the distance in one part nearest Stari Vitez, one

    4 could see the village of Krcevine quite well. Also

    5 there is a good view of Grbavica, there is a good view

    6 of Donja Veceriska, the village of Gacice, Bradina and

    7 Novaci. In other places people could hear shooting and

    8 they could hear the direction from which it was coming,

    9 and also smoke from grenades and from places that were

    10 burning could be seen.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Djidic, the Tribunal wishes to thank you

    13 for coming and testifying for four days. We appreciate

    14 your testimony and you are now discharged. Will you

    15 please accompany Mr. Djidic?

    16 (The witness withdrew)

    17 JUDGE JORDA: It is 12.45. Mr. Prosecutor, would you prefer

    18 that we have the next witness brought in now?

    19 MR. KEHOE: I would prefer -- I think it would be easier your

    20 Honour if we take a break now and then just start up

    21 earlier and we can get right through it quickly.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: That is fine. Very well, in that case the

    23 hearing is adjourned and we will resume at 2.30.

    24 (12.45 pm)

    25 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)

  53. 1 (2.40 pm)

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Please bring in the accused. The hearing is

    3 resumed.

    4 (Accused brought in)

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?

    6 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, your Honours, before I begin on the

    7 next witness, talking to Mr. Djidic at the lunch break,

    8 he would like to clarify one point, and the point is

    9 that, with regard to the ammunition, he did get

    10 ammunition down the river, but he said that on one

    11 occasion, he did get ammunition from a private entity,

    12 not the United Nations, not the Red Cross, in --

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, that is all very fine.

    14 I think, nevertheless, that Mr. Djidic had things to say,

    15 he had ample time to do so. Either we bring Mr. Djidic

    16 back into the courtroom, if he is still here, but for

    17 that I will consult my colleagues, but you cannot bring

    18 us suggestions from Mr. Djidic again which we are going

    19 to discuss, ask the Defence for their opinion and so on.

    20 Mr. Kehoe, we are professionals, agreed? That is

    21 the first point. Is Mr. Djidic still here?

    22 MR. KEHOE: He is, Mr. President.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I am going to consult my

    24 colleagues then. (Pause). The Trial Chamber has

    25 decided to bring in the witness again, but he will only

  54. 1 make his statement on the sole question that you have

    2 mentioned, and the Defence will have an opportunity to

    3 question him on that one point only.

    4 Bring in Mr. Djidic, please.

    5 (Witness entered court)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Djidic, can you hear me?

    7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Mr. Prosecutor has conveyed to us

    9 to a clarification that you wish to make, and the Trial

    10 Chamber will hear you on that one question that will be

    11 put to you by the Prosecutor, and we remind you that you

    12 are still under oath.

    13 Mr. Prosecutor, will you please put the question

    14 that you raised yourself. After that, if the Defence

    15 has any cross-examination to make, it will do so.

    16 Mr. Prosecutor.

    17 MR. SEFKIJA DJIDIC (recalled)

    18 Further examined by MR. KEHOE

    19 Q. Thank you Mr. President, your Honours. Mr. Djidic,

    20 concerning ammunition brought by a private entity, how

    21 did that ammunition get to you in Stari Vitez and in

    22 what manner was it brought in?

    23 A. When talking about ammunition and my statement about it,

    24 that I never received through the United Nations any

    25 ammunition, I wish to clear up a possible dilemma.

  55. 1 Since Mr. Nobilo said that I had changed my testimony,

    2 I am not changing my testimony. I uphold what I said,

    3 that I never received through members of the

    4 United Nations any ammunition, and what General Alagic

    5 stated does not apply to the United Nations but it

    6 refers to a private organisation.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, do you have any questions, any

    8 cross-examination of the witness on this point?

    9 Further cross-examined by MR. NOBILO

    10 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. Which organisation?

    11 A. It was a private organisation which does not belong to

    12 the United Nations.

    13 Q. What is its name?

    14 A. I do not know if I have to give you the name.

    15 Q. It is important for us so that we can verify your

    16 statement.

    17 MR. KEHOE: I object at this point, your Honour, because of

    18 some danger expressed to members of that organisation.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, the witness does not wish to answer

    20 your question. You will draw the conclusion you wish,

    21 which you consider to be opportune, emanating from the

    22 witness's failure to answer the question. In that case,

    23 the debate is closed on the question of ammunition.

    24 Mr. Djidic, we wish to thank you once again and ask

    25 the usher to take you out.

  56. 1 Mr. Nobilo, have you more questions to put on this

    2 point? Go ahead.

    3 MR. NOBILO: I do.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Just on this point only. Go ahead then,

    5 I apologise.

    6 MR. NOBILO: How did you get in touch with this private

    7 unnamed organisation?

    8 A. They came to Stari Vitez on their own business.

    9 Q. In whose vehicles did they come?

    10 A. In their own vehicles.

    11 Q. Civilian or military?

    12 A. Civilian.

    13 Q. In what way did that ammunition reach you, technically

    14 speaking?

    15 A. I have already said, a small quantity of ammunition

    16 which came down the Lasva river, and another small

    17 quantity in a vehicle under the seat.

    18 Q. Now you have given us a new piece of information. First

    19 it was just the river, now a vehicle.

    20 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, your Honour, I object to what

    21 Mr. Nobilo thinks is a new piece of information and

    22 request that Mr. Nobilo ask just questions.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: I agree with you that Mr. Nobilo should not

    24 make any comments, but I do not agree with you with

    25 regard to the right of Mr. Nobilo to clear up this

  57. 1 point. If he does not wish to give the name of the

    2 organisation, it is quite legitimate for the Defence to

    3 put certain questions to clarify the way in which that

    4 ammunition reached the witness.

    5 MR. NOBILO: Along the Lasva river, what does that mean?

    6 What means of transport was used along the river?

    7 A. A primitive device. It was a rubber tyre.

    8 Q. How much ammunition did you get in that way?

    9 A. Several hundred bullets.

    10 Q. What about the civilian vehicle? How much ammunition

    11 did it bring?

    12 A. Several hundred again.

    13 Q. In addition to these two deliveries of several hundred,

    14 did you receive any further ammunition during the siege?

    15 A. No.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Djidic, the Trial Chamber wishes to thank

    17 you.

    18 Please take the witness out.

    19 (The witness withdrew)

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, you have another witness,

    21 I assume?

    22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecutor calls Sefik

    23 Pezer.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Before the witness enters, I should like to

    25 ask you, also on behalf of my colleagues, how much time

  58. 1 have you planned for questioning this witness, and, on

    2 the other hand, I should like to remind you of the

    3 request made to Mr. Mark Harmon for a list which will be

    4 communicated to the judge of the number of witnesses

    5 that you wish to hear and the time with relative

    6 precision that you wish to devote to the

    7 examination-in-chief of those witnesses.

    8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honours, with regard to your first question,

    9 I would anticipate the direct examination of Mr. Pezer to

    10 be approximately two hours, and the list that your

    11 Honour requested directly from Mr. Harmon, that is in my

    12 hand, in this red file right here (indicating).

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Please give us the list through

    14 the intermediary of the Registrar.

    15 Mr. Hayman, you have a question?

    16 MR. HAYMAN: Before the next witness comes in, may I have a

    17 moment to confer with Mr. Nobilo and perhaps make a

    18 request to the court in light of the witness's refusal

    19 to answer a question?

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. (Pause). Mr. Hayman?

    21 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour. I have spoken with my

    22 co-counsel concerning the issue of Mr. Djidic's refusal

    23 to answer the question concerning the source of these

    24 arms that reached him to assist the army in Stari Vitez

    25 during the siege.

  59. 1 The Defence, we do not know of any rules that

    2 would permit a witness to refuse to answer questions.

    3 I note Rule 77(a), which states that a witness who

    4 refuses or fails contumaciously to answer a relevant

    5 question may be found in contempt, and then certain

    6 penalties are provided.

    7 In my system, it is also not uncommon for a

    8 witness who refuses to answer questions on

    9 cross-examination, for the witness's direct examination

    10 to be stricken, because the Defence and the accused has

    11 not been allowed to exercise its right of

    12 cross-examination where a witness declines to answer.

    13 Here I would suggest it is impermissible for the

    14 Prosecution to seek to prove that these arms did not

    15 come from one source, whether it is the Red Cross or the

    16 United Nations, and yet we the Defence were not able to

    17 explore the area because the witness simply refuses to

    18 say where in fact they did come from.

    19 I leave it to the court whether the direct

    20 examination should be stricken, or whether contempt

    21 proceedings should go forward against the witness or

    22 whether he should be given the opportunity to answer the

    23 question prior to contempt proceedings being brought,

    24 but we think there must be some remedy, or else what is

    25 to prevent other witnesses, if it causes embarrassment

  60. 1 or discomfort, or perhaps might tend to incriminate a

    2 friend or relative -- we may have many witnesses who

    3 decline to answer difficult questions on

    4 cross-examination because they are difficult, and we do

    5 not believe that is adequate grounds for them to decline

    6 to answer such questions. If a question needs to be

    7 dealt with in closed session or subject to some type of

    8 protective order to the Defence, we have no objection to

    9 that, but we do object to allowing the witness not to

    10 answer the question. (Pause).

    11 JUDGE JORDA: The Trial Chamber, Mr. Hayman, knows well

    12 Article 77 on contempt of the Tribunal, but it would

    13 like to say that this is a discretionary right of the

    14 Chamber, and it is a possibility, so that the Rule

    15 stipulated under 77(a) is limited by paragraph (b), that

    16 the Chamber may relieve the witness of the duty to

    17 answer, which it did so by saying that Mr. Nobilo can

    18 draw the necessary conclusions.

    19 Then there is another exception envisaged in Rule

    20 90; the witness told you that he could endanger an

    21 organisation by mentioning it.

    22 To conclude, contempt of the Tribunal is an

    23 extremely difficult measure. I would not say it is

    24 rare, but it is relatively rare, and it is up to the

    25 discretion of the Chamber which does not find it

  61. 1 necessary to raise the issue in this particular case

    2 with respect to this particular witness.

    3 I think therefore this matter of Mr. Djidic is

    4 closed.

    5 We can now proceed for about two hours to hear the

    6 next witness, which the usher will bring in. Thank

    7 you.

    8 (Witness entered court)

    9 JUDGE JORDA: First of all, can you hear me, please? Will

    10 you stand up if you can hear me?

    11 A. Yes, I can hear you.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Will you tell the judges your name, your first

    13 and second name? What is your name, please?

    14 A. My name is Sefik Pezer.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Sefik Pezer, you can now read the solemn

    16 declaration which has been handed to you.

    17 SEFIK PEZER (sworn)

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, you may be seated.

    19 Mr. Prosecutor?

    20 Examined by MR. KEHOE

    21 Q. Thank you Mr. President, your Honours.

    22 Mr. Pezer, how old are you, sir, and do you have a

    23 family?

    24 A. 44; I have a wife and two children.

    25 Q. What area of Bosnia do you live in now?

  62. 1 A. I now live in a village within the municipality of

    2 Vitez.

    3 Q. Where did you grow up? Where were you born, where did

    4 you go to school and where did you spend most of your

    5 early years?

    6 A. I was born on 28th September 1953 in Klobje, the

    7 municipality of Zenica. From the age of 6 or 7 I lived

    8 in Vitez, Donje Dubravica, Novaci; that is the popular

    9 name for it. In 1976, when I got married, I got an

    10 apartment from my company, the company I worked for, and

    11 that is where I lived until the war broke out.

    12 Q. Did you live in that location until 1993?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Mr. Pezer, before the war broke out, what did you do for

    15 work?

    16 A. I worked in the factory Slobodan Princip Seljo, from

    17 1976 until the war, literally until the war broke out on

    18 16th April 1993. That was my main occupation, and my

    19 wife was also employed. She worked for a private

    20 employer in the town itself, she worked in a catering

    21 establishment, Cevapcinica, and before the conflict in

    22 1993, I rented a Cevapcinica from a man and that is

    23 where my wife started working and I helped her there too

    24 after all the work I did at my company.

    25 Q. You were working in the SPS factory as well as helping

  63. 1 your wife in the Cevapcinica?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Using the exhibit to your left, the photograph on the

    4 easel, Mr. Pezer -- for the record, Mr. President,

    5 your Honours, we are referring to Prosecutor's exhibit

    6 56 on the easel. Can you turn to that picture and with

    7 the assistance of the usher, could you use a pointer and

    8 show us where your Cevapi shop was.

    9 A. Let me just find out where the north is on this map.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: It is not very convenient for the witness,

    11 Mr. Prosecutor. It is not easy; he has to speak into the

    12 microphone, he has to look at the map. Let us try and

    13 facilitate his task. Bring the easel closer to him,

    14 perhaps.

    15 Mr. Registrar, perhaps you could help our witness a

    16 little.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: The public gallery must be able to see and the

    18 Defence, of course, must be able to see.

    19 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, may I approach the witness and be

    20 of assistance?

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, of course. You can help him, but you

    22 must not answer on his behalf, of course, just assist

    23 him physically.

    24 A. Just have a look. This should be the place

    25 (indicates).

  64. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Now the Defence cannot see.

    2 A. I have found it.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Would it not be simpler, Mr. Prosecutor, that

    4 the witness simply tells us where the place he is

    5 looking for is? That would be simpler for

    6 understanding. Could the witness tell us where the

    7 establishment in question is?

    8 MR. KEHOE: Could you tell us, Mr. Pezer?

    9 A. The railway station in Vitez. I have found it. Here it

    10 is (indicates). It is difficult to read this map

    11 really.

    12 Q. Mr. Pezer, prior to you opening your Cevapi shop in that

    13 location, what was at that spot?

    14 A. Could you ask that more clearly, please.

    15 Q. Was there another shop at your store prior to your

    16 opening up the Cevapi shop?

    17 A. There was a Cevapi shop there before, and it was run by

    18 the man from whom I had rented the place. It worked for

    19 about a year and a half before it was blown up. Two

    20 bombs were thrown; one exploded, the other one did not,

    21 so I found it in a state of disrepair and then I agreed

    22 with the landlord that I would take the place over and

    23 continue working there because I thought simply that

    24 I could work there, because I had expected the Muslim

    25 and Croat people to reach neutral agreement and to have

  65. 1 things function normally and that is the way it was.

    2 I worked in that same establishment for about a month

    3 but on 16th April, the war broke out, and everything

    4 came to a halt.

    5 Q. Mr. Pezer, you said that the man who ran this shop before

    6 you and your wife, the store was blown up -- his store

    7 was blown up, is that right?

    8 A. Yes, a bomb was thrown. I think it was January,

    9 February or March 1993. After that I changed the glass,

    10 repaired the ceramics, also there were some broken

    11 chairs, and then I repaired the place and restored it to

    12 its original appearance.

    13 Q. Was that man a Muslim who was blown out?

    14 A. Yes, his name was Semsudin Subasic and he told me about

    15 it. After the incident he went to the police station in

    16 town. He complained but he did not receive any response

    17 and he simply closed the place down, and I wanted to

    18 make wooden shutters immediately, as soon as I took the

    19 place over, so that a new bomb could not be thrown

    20 again. There were three or four Croat shops in the

    21 area, so I thought, perhaps I can make it out there too,

    22 perhaps I can work alongside with them.

    23 Q. Why did you think that you or your family was not going

    24 to be hurt?

    25 A. I thought because I was an ordinary citizen, I was not a

  66. 1 soldier, I was not interested in politics simply, I was

    2 not interested in the war, I was not interested in the

    3 army, I was only interested in working, and, to tell you

    4 the truth, what I said, time and again, if there would

    5 be any fighting in Vitez it would only be the army and

    6 the HVO that would be fighting each other, the military

    7 units, but that the civilians would remain untouched.

    8 That is what I believed until the very last day.

    9 However my assessment was not correct. The worst

    10 possible thing happened.

    11 Q. Mr. Pezer, going back to the photograph, and you pointed

    12 to your Cevapi shop near the railway station in

    13 Dubravica, is the Dubravica school where the

    14 Vitezovi was, was that near to your Cevapi shop?

    15 A. The school is about 200 metres away approximately.

    16 However, you can see it from the Cevapi shop because the

    17 school was on the hill and the Cevapi shop was

    18 underneath and there was a small forest in between but

    19 it was not very far away, about 200 metres.

    20 Q. Did members of the Vitezovi frequent your Cevapi shop?

    21 A. Yes, they used to frequent it. They used to eat there,

    22 not all of them but quite a few of them. They used to

    23 eat there, some of them owed me money. They would not

    24 pay for the food they received, but that was not a

    25 meaningful amount. I did not pay much attention to it.

  67. 1 I just thought, let it be.

    2 Q. Let us move ahead, Mr. Pezer, to the day before the

    3 attack, 15th April 1993. Can you tell the judges, did

    4 you work that day, and if you did work, where did you

    5 work and where did you go after work?

    6 A. My usual working day was to work in the factory for

    7 eight hours and after 3 pm in the afternoon, I would

    8 help my wife. On that day, 15th April, I worked in the

    9 factory until 3 pm, then I came home, and then I went to

    10 the Cevapi shop to help my wife, to ask her whether she

    11 needed anything, whether I should go and buy something

    12 for her, do some shopping for her et cetera.

    13 When I came to the Cevapi shop it was full of

    14 people. I was sort of surprised because I was not used

    15 to that, I was not used to seeing such a full shop, and

    16 I asked my wife, "What is this?" She said the road to

    17 Zenica has been blocked and these people who are

    18 supposed to go to Zenica, to move further on, cannot go

    19 along that road, so they are taking a break, resting,

    20 eating, drinking et cetera, so we stayed there until

    21 about 5 pm. All the goods we had in the shop -- we had

    22 some reserves which could keep us going for about two or

    23 three days -- all of it was sold that day, so we had to

    24 close early that day because there was no need to wait

    25 any longer.

  68. 1 As I was waiting for my wife to finish all her

    2 work, I spent some time in the shop itself. I spent

    3 some time outside because that was the main road to

    4 Zenica and Busovaca. I was standing in front of the

    5 shop and I saw unusual movements by HVO soldiers who

    6 were going by non-stop. They were going to the school;

    7 they were moving towards Zenica, towards Ahmici, Novaci,

    8 but I could not imagine that something like that could

    9 happen on 16th April. The only thing I found suspicious

    10 was that the members of the HVO on that very same day,

    11 that is to say after 3 pm when I was there, they also

    12 drove along taking some fuel in a vehicle, and they also

    13 had a three-barrel anti-artillery gun on a FAP vehicle,

    14 mounted on the vehicle.

    15 I saw them go to Novaci and go back several times

    16 and I did not know what the reason was for that, but to

    17 tell you now, it was really unusual compared to the

    18 previous days, because there were certain incidents

    19 before, and I thought that perhaps there would be some

    20 kind of incident that day too, but I thought things

    21 would pass, that it would not be a major event.

    22 About 5.00 we closed the shop. We went to our

    23 apartment which was about three kilometres away. As we

    24 passed through Kolonija, as we call it, the town,

    25 everything seemed rather quiet. There were hardly any

  69. 1 people in the streets, and normally we went back to our

    2 apartment to get some rest because we were tired. Both

    3 my wife and I, we were supposed to have prepared the

    4 meat needed for the next day, but we decided we would

    5 not do any more work that day but we agreed we would get

    6 up very early the next day before I went to the factory

    7 and then we would finish that. That is what happened on

    8 15th April. If you have any further questions, please

    9 feel free to ask them.

    10 Q. The checkpoint goes up to the Vitez road. Was that

    11 manned with HVO soldiers that day?

    12 A. Yes, the checkpoint was about 100 or 150 metres away

    13 from my shop and you could see it well from the shop.

    14 Members of the HVO were there before, because that is

    15 where the main crossroads is for Busovaca, Vjetrenice

    16 and also another road to Zenica and they were there

    17 before too, but that day the road was closed and there

    18 were quite a few vehicles and they would not let them

    19 pass. I did not know what was happening there. I found

    20 out only later, perhaps after two or three months only

    21 what was going on in Zenica then.

    22 Q. Mr. Pezer, could you go back to the photograph that you

    23 used before to pick out the Cevapi shop near the

    24 Dubravica railway and can you point to the checkpoint

    25 you saw HVO soldiers at on the 15th?

  70. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. You are pointing to the crossroads on the upper

    3 left-hand portion of exhibit 56?

    4 A. That is the road to Vjetrenice, the crossroad of the

    5 road leading to Vjetrenice and the road leading to

    6 Zenica.

    7 Q. That evening when you got home, did you watch

    8 television?

    9 A. I watched television before quite a lot too, but, to

    10 tell you the truth, I did not pay special attention to

    11 it that evening, because in Vitez at that time, we were

    12 able to watch Bosnian-Herzegovinan television, TV

    13 Sarajevo basically, and there was local television, TV

    14 Vitez. I do not know, was it run by the HVO or the HVO

    15 government, but it was under the control of the Croat

    16 authorities anyway, and that evening, I did not watch

    17 television, but yes, I did find out, only when I was

    18 expelled to Zenica, that there was some kind of TV

    19 programme that day, at 5.00 or 6.00, I do not know

    20 exactly.

    21 Mr. Kostroman spoke, Kordic. They said things

    22 could not go on that way, that the Muslims should be

    23 disarmed but they were appealing to the Croatian people

    24 not to do anything until further orders were issued.

    25 I am telling you about this because that is what I had

  71. 1 heard, that there was such a television programme, and

    2 that is probably the reason why I did not see very many

    3 people in the street that evening.

    4 Q. Had you seen programmes with people like Kordic on

    5 previously talking about Muslims? Now I am talking

    6 about prior to the 15th. Had you seen those types of

    7 television programmes?

    8 A. Yes, I did watch them, but, to tell you the truth, I did

    9 not like watching them. Quite often I would turn off

    10 the TV set because it was precisely the two of them that

    11 were saying quite a few things, warmongering stuff,

    12 like: "We cannot live with the Muslims any more; Muslims

    13 are to be blamed for everything." Sometimes I would be

    14 so upset I would turn off the TV set and I would not

    15 watch it any more. I watched some of it but on most

    16 occasions I would simply turn off the TV set because

    17 I could not listen to that.

    18 MR. KEHOE: Before we move to the 16th, Mr. President, if

    19 Mr. Dubuisson could put Prosecutor's exhibit 45 on the

    20 easel.

    21 Mr. Pezer, taking a look at the photograph that is

    22 now on the easel and referring it -- for the record, it

    23 is Prosecutor's exhibit 45. Could you with the

    24 assistance of the pointer point out the location of your

    25 house, where you lived on 16th April 1993?

  72. 1 A. Yes -- perhaps this easel could be turned around a

    2 little bit. No, it is okay (indicates).

    3 Q. You are pointing to an apartment building that is just

    4 on top of or a block or so on top of the race-track; is

    5 that right?

    6 A. No, I am showing the apartment building where I lived;

    7 the stadium is a bit lower.

    8 Q. That is fine, sir. If you could just sit down. With

    9 the assistance again of the usher and Mr. Dubuisson, if

    10 we could turn to exhibit 81, which has been received in

    11 evidence, and look at PH337 and PH340. If we could put

    12 those on the ELMO, with your assistance, sir? I think

    13 it is easier if you take it out of the plastic.

    14 If we can take them one at a time, Mr. Usher?

    15 Looking at that photograph which is now on the

    16 ELMO, PH337 which is part of exhibit 81, is that a

    17 photograph of the building where you lived on 16th April

    18 1993?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Using your pointer on the ELMO, could you point to your

    21 apartment on that photograph?

    22 A. Here it is, the red balcony (indicating). There is

    23 something red on the balcony, rather. Here it is.

    24 Q. This apartment building is right on the edge of

    25 Stari Vitez, is it not?

  73. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Could we then look at the next photograph, PH340? That

    3 is a photograph in from Stari Vitez back at your

    4 apartment building, is it not?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Usher.

    7 Mr. Pezer, let us move to 16th April 1993. Do you

    8 remember that day? Tell the court about it.

    9 A. I already said that on April 15th my wife and I were

    10 supposed to prepare meat for the next day. Because we

    11 were tired though, we decided to get up somewhat earlier

    12 on 16th April, because I was supposed to get to work at

    13 the factory, and she was supposed to get to the shop on

    14 time, so we decided to get up around 5.00 and perhaps we

    15 got up even before 5.00 in the morning. We started

    16 preparing the meat straight away so that we could finish

    17 that by 6.15 approximately so that I could get to work

    18 on time.

    19 At about 5.25 or 5.30 or 5.35, within those ten

    20 minutes after Ezan, that is a call for prayer, early in

    21 the morning at Sabah, I heard strong detonation near my

    22 home. I ran to the window immediately to see what was

    23 going on, because such situations did occur quite

    24 frequently in Vitez over the past few months, and I can

    25 say that over 90 per cent of all Muslim shops were blown

  74. 1 up, and I think only one or two remained in town, and

    2 also this cafe which was near the race-track, the

    3 stadium. As I looked through the window, I saw a few

    4 soldiers, five or six of them, I cannot remember. They

    5 had thrown bombs on this cafe, it was called Trojka and

    6 it was owned by Gerina Elvedin. I came back and I told

    7 my wife, I said "Gerina's cafe has gone too", and I had

    8 no idea that something worse would happen as well.

    9 Q. If you could use the photograph and show the court where

    10 you were and where Gerina Elvedin's cafe was that was

    11 blown up.

    12 A. A few minutes ago, I showed you the other photograph

    13 where my balcony was, where my windows were, where my

    14 apartment was. My entire apartment was facing

    15 Stari Vitez. I could only see Stari Vitez, I could not

    16 see the town in any conceivable way. The cafe was on

    17 the other side; I will show you right now.

    18 Q. So the cafe was on the edge of the stadium?

    19 A. The cafe was -- there is a concrete wall around the

    20 stadium and the cafe itself was within the stadium and

    21 so the outer wall made of concrete was on the other

    22 side. Then I told my wife, "There goes Gerina's cafe".

    23 I had no idea that something worse was about to take

    24 place. I would have to show you what happened

    25 afterwards on the map too.

  75. 1 They passed on the other side where the garages

    2 are, and they moved towards the house of Senad Karalic.

    3 Q. Was Senad Karalic a Muslim?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Was Gerina a Muslim as well?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Continue using the photograph. You said they moved down

    8 that street? What did you see next?

    9 A. I will show you now where Senad's cafe was. About five

    10 or six of them came to the cafe itself. In front of the

    11 cafe there was a terrace all in glass. They threw a few

    12 bombs there too, I cannot remember how many. Then they

    13 moved along the eastern side of that cafe. There were

    14 two windows there, one where the bar is and the other

    15 where the kitchen is, and they broke the glass on the

    16 windows with rifle butts and they threw in bombs. Later

    17 one of them walked in with a jerry-can into the cafe,

    18 and after a few minutes, I do not know exactly when, the

    19 entire cafe was in flames, and it burned down so

    20 quickly, it was amazing. I had never seen anything burn

    21 down so quickly. It was pretty old and perhaps that is

    22 why it burned so fast.

    23 Q. Did you see one of the soldiers taking a jerry-can in to

    24 burn that cafe?

    25 A. Yes, I saw them but I could not recognise them, but it

  76. 1 was a soldier. Then, immediately above that cafe, Senad

    2 Karalic had a new house, and from the cafe, they moved

    3 to that house and a small TAM van was parked in front of

    4 the house. They drove it over to this other compound

    5 where the garages are, and then they also brought in the

    6 luxury car, I cannot remember which luxury car it was,

    7 but it was a luxury car. They burned down Senad

    8 Karalic's house too, this new house. My wife started

    9 crying immediately; she knew Senad and Senad's mother

    10 and Senad's wife and Senad's children. We thought they

    11 had all burned to death in that house.

    12 When they torched the house of Senad Karalic, the

    13 next house was the house of Varupa. I do not know the

    14 person, I only know him superficially. They were

    15 carrying things out of Senad's house and his house.

    16 I watched a bit of it and then I would move away from

    17 the window, but they were carrying technical goods,

    18 probably radios, videos, smaller things they could take

    19 along, and then they torched Varupa's house. I know

    20 that he is called Varupa but I do not know his name.

    21 The next house they torched was Varupa's house.

    22 We called him Vare but his name is Mohammed. They went

    23 back to torch it three times. In Zenica after a couple

    24 of months I saw this man and he told me he was in the

    25 house and he tried to extinguish the fire. They kept

  77. 1 coming back trying to burn it down but they could not.

    2 Part of the house burned down, but that is what he told

    3 me; he was in the house and he tried to extinguish the

    4 fire. The next house they torched was Latif Barucija's

    5 house. All of these houses are in a single row near the

    6 garages.

    7 In order to burn Latif's house, or rather after

    8 burning Latif's house, Hrustic's house was next. They

    9 spent some more time there but they came back very

    10 quickly, because I saw quite well that one of the HVO

    11 soldiers was wounded in the face. I saw blood on his

    12 face and probably somebody had put up a fight there.

    13 There was a privately-owned home near the apartment

    14 building where I lived and soon after that an UNPROFOR

    15 vehicle came and parked between Varupa's house and the

    16 garages, but the UNPROFOR vehicle stayed there, but they

    17 did not pay any attention to this carrier.

    18 They kept going back to these torched houses, then

    19 they would come back again. At 8.00 or 9.00, I cannot

    20 recall exactly the hour, the members of the HVO came

    21 into my building, and from the fourth floor, rather from

    22 the roof, they opened fire in the direction of

    23 Stari Vitez. Then around 2 pm --

    24 Q. Before you go to that, sir, before we go to the events

    25 at 2 pm, you mentioned that there were a series of

  78. 1 houses that you saw being burned, Muslim houses. Could

    2 you again go back to the photograph, exhibit 45, and

    3 point on the photograph to the houses that you saw being

    4 burnt and whether or not those houses are Muslim?

    5 A. All the houses that I saw from my window are all Muslim

    6 houses, from the crossroads to the next crossroads;

    7 I will show you which now (indicates).

    8 Q. Sir, you are pointing down a street. All those houses

    9 on that street were burnt?

    10 A. All except one. It was new; probably there was nothing

    11 there to burn, so that is why they did not torch it.

    12 Q. How many of those houses were looted of TV sets, videos

    13 or other things?

    14 A. I managed to see them taking from Senad's new house and

    15 from the old man Varupa's house. From the other Varupa,

    16 Mohammed, they took the Lada car and they drove it

    17 over. So there were two cars, a truck and some of these

    18 electric appliances. I do not know exactly how many.

    19 Q. Mr. Pezer, you said at 8.00 in the morning the HVO came

    20 into the building and began to shoot into Stari Vitez.

    21 Where were they shooting from?

    22 A. Could you repeat that question, please?

    23 Q. You said that about 8.00 or 9.00 in the morning, some

    24 HVO soldiers came into your building and started

    25 shooting into Stari Vitez. My question for you is:

  79. 1 where were they shooting from? Were they shooting from

    2 the roof, from the fourth floor, the third floor, where

    3 in the building?

    4 A. They were shooting from the fourth floor, and I saw, it

    5 was rather difficult to climb to the actual roof of the

    6 building, but that morning they were climbing onto the

    7 roof. One soldier would stand and another one would

    8 climb onto his soldiers and jump up. This building had

    9 a flat roof. They were well protected there because

    10 I climbed up there myself only a few months before to

    11 mount an aerial, so I saw there was a wall behind which

    12 they could hide after shooting.

    13 Q. Did you recognise these soldiers, Mr. Pezer?

    14 A. I did two of them. They were young men from Vitez.

    15 I think both of them are Krizanac, Nikola and Jako.

    16 These are the two I recognised. I knew all the others

    17 by sight, but not by name. I could not tell you exactly

    18 their names.

    19 Q. The others you saw by sight, were they from the Vitez

    20 area?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Were they members of the HVO?

    23 A. Yes, they were members of the HVO, of course.

    24 Q. You said about 2.0 in the afternoon -- you were about to

    25 tell us what happened at 2.00 in the afternoon. What

  80. 1 happened, sir?

    2 A. At 2.00, HVO soldiers entered the staircase of the

    3 building, and they fired a burst of fire on the ground

    4 floor. They ran up the steps and said, "All the Muslims

    5 come out." What else could I do but go out, I and my

    6 wife.

    7 In front of the building, I found about ten or so

    8 HVO members; three or four of them had stockings over

    9 their heads. I recognised a young man who was in

    10 civilian clothes, but he was carrying a rifle. I do not

    11 know his name, but I know he is from Mosunj. Knowing me

    12 and my wife, he said, "Do not be afraid, there will be

    13 no problems, you are just going to the cinema for an

    14 interview there and you will be released. Do not panic,

    15 do not be afraid."

    16 There were seven or eight Muslims on my entrance.

    17 We all headed towards the cinema; my wife was with one

    18 of the groups. When we reached the cinema they took us

    19 into the cellars of the cinema. There were already 20

    20 or 30 people in there, Muslims, of course, who had been

    21 arrested, and there were two or three women among them.

    22 They begged the HVO members to let them go, they

    23 had small children they had left at home. Then I told

    24 my wife, since I had a daughter who was 9 in 1993,

    25 I told her too, "You go as well. You have a small

  81. 1 child; leave me here." They let the women go.

    2 Apparently they had been brought in by mistake, but they

    3 could now go and I stayed behind with the other

    4 Muslims. I already said there were 20 or 30 of us, and

    5 they kept bringing in more, and that night, that is

    6 16th April, in the evening in the cellar where the

    7 boiler room was of the cinema, there were about 70 or

    8 maybe even 80 of us. It was too cramped. People could

    9 not lie down; we could hardly sit, never mind lie down.

    10 All day they kept bringing in people; this was on the

    11 16th in the afternoon and in the evening.

    12 Then they brought in more people but they could

    13 not fit into these premises so they took them to the

    14 cinema hall itself upstairs. After three or four days,

    15 I do not recall exactly how many, they came and told us

    16 that some of us would go upstairs to the cinema hall; we

    17 would have more room, they said. I did not dare

    18 volunteer. I did not think that they intended to move

    19 us. I thought maybe they would take us to dig trenches

    20 or to do some other labour or even maybe to execute us.

    21 Some people did volunteer, thinking it would be better

    22 upstairs, so I joined them. I went to the cinema hall,

    23 and I stayed there until 30th April. Conditions were

    24 much more favourable there than in the cellar.

    25 Q. Mr. Pezer, before we move on, let me show you a few

  82. 1 photographs. With the assistance of the usher, if we

    2 could move to exhibit 33? If we could take three

    3 photographs out of there, Mr. Usher, PH197, PH198 and

    4 PH203. Looking at the first photograph on the ELMO,

    5 which is PH197, Mr. Pezer, do you recognise that

    6 building?

    7 A. Yes, that is the cinema; that is the cinema where I was

    8 detained for 15 days, only this is a view from the

    9 south.

    10 Q. Let us go to the next photograph, PH198.

    11 A. This is also taken from the south. It is the exit from

    12 the cinema when the film is over; this is where we went

    13 out.

    14 Q. And PH203?

    15 A. This is the entrance to the cinema.

    16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Usher. With your assistance, if we could

    17 put that exhibit back together?

    18 Mr. Pezer, if you turn again to the photograph that

    19 is on the easel, and you said you were taken from your

    20 building to the cinema. Could you trace for the court

    21 the path that you took to the cinema?

    22 A. (Indicates).

    23 Q. Okay, sir, you can have a seat. You said, Mr. Pezer,

    24 that the people were being brought in all day. Were

    25 these all Muslims that were being brought into the

  83. 1 cinema, into the basement?

    2 A. Yes, they were all Muslims. I do not know exactly --

    3 they were all Muslims, yes, but on the third or

    4 fourth day, they brought in from the factory Slobodan

    5 Princip Seljo, the SPS factory, a few workers who were

    6 working that night, the night between the 15th and the

    7 16th, and they were shut up in the factory and later

    8 transferred to the cinema and they were all Muslims.

    9 Q. You are a Muslim yourself, are you not?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. When you were in the cinema until the 30th, were there

    12 HVO soldiers guarding you?

    13 A. There was the HVO police, they guarded us, but, to be

    14 quite frank, it was possible to escape from that

    15 detention, but it was risky, because our families had

    16 stayed behind in our homes and apartments, so that

    17 no one dared try to escape, because if they were to do

    18 that, then their family would not be safe, and there

    19 were members of the HVO police there in the cinema.

    20 Q. Was this the military police?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. When you were there, were people taken out to dig

    23 trenches?

    24 A. Yes, they were taken out, but by some coincidence

    25 I somehow managed to avoid it. We were lying there and

  84. 1 somehow I pretended to be asleep, I do not really know

    2 how, but anyway I managed to avoid going to dig

    3 trenches. There were people who went three or four

    4 times. There was one young man, a neighbour of mine

    5 where I used to live before -- I do not know how old he

    6 was, maybe 18 or 19 -- he got killed while digging

    7 trenches and his father was in prison there too.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, we are going to have a break

    9 now until 4.20.

    10 (4.00 pm)

    11 (A short break)

    12 (4.20 pm)

    13 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Bring in the

    14 accused.

    15 (Accused brought in)

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?

    17 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, thank you. Mr. Pezer, we were

    18 talking about your time when you were being held in the

    19 cinema, and you mentioned trench-digging and you

    20 mentioned a young man who was killed while he was

    21 trench-digging. How was the selection process made

    22 where people were taken out to dig trenches?

    23 A. At first, we did not know that we were going to dig

    24 trenches. HVO policemen would come, the men who were

    25 guarding us in the cinema -- they would come with one or

  85. 1 two soldiers, I assume they were soldiers from the

    2 front, and then he would say, "I need four or five or

    3 ten men", and as many as he wanted he would take. By

    4 way of example for instance he would say ten, and then,

    5 as there were plenty of us, if anyone would volunteer,

    6 then he would stand up; if not then he would point a

    7 finger and say, "You, you and you come out", and then

    8 this soldier would take those men out.

    9 Sometimes it was for digging trenches. Then there

    10 were some other minor chores like unloading a truck or

    11 something like that, but mostly it was digging

    12 trenches. As I said, there were people who went four or

    13 five times, mostly the people who were closer to the

    14 door, and when they walked into the cinema hall, if

    15 there were no volunteers, no one had got there

    16 voluntarily in the first place, then they would simply

    17 point to those people who were close and there was no

    18 questioning the decision.

    19 Q. Mr. Pezer, after you were in the cinema for several days,

    20 did you have a conversation with any military policemen

    21 concerning an explosion or shelling that he said was

    22 going to take place, and if that did happen, can you

    23 explain it to the judges?

    24 A. Are you thinking of the cistern that went off in

    25 Stari Vitez?

  86. 1 Q. Yes, sir.

    2 A. On that day, a soldier, an HVO soldier, came to the

    3 basement. I was in the basement at the time, and we

    4 used the toilet which was on the ground floor of the

    5 building, and as there were a lot of us we would come

    6 and go. We would go to the hall where the toilet was,

    7 and then this soldier came and said, "No one should go

    8 out because we are expecting some heavy shelling", so

    9 that nobody would get hit. Only a little while after

    10 that we heard a powerful explosion. We knew immediately

    11 that it was not any shelling, because the explosion was

    12 very powerful. It was nothing like a grenade or any

    13 other device of that kind.

    14 Then this same soldier, after this explosion, he

    15 came up and said that the Muslims from Stari Vitez had

    16 sent a truck full of explosives and this truck went off

    17 at the bus station, which was about 200 metres from the

    18 cinema. To be quite frank, we doubted the truth of

    19 this, because we knew that the Muslims did not have any

    20 such thing. That is as much as I can say about that.

    21 Q. Did you find out later on exactly what the story was,

    22 what had happened?

    23 A. Yes, I heard the next day, I think it was the next day,

    24 when my wife came to visit. Who she heard from I do not

    25 know, but she told me that this truck-bomb had gone off

  87. 1 near the mosque, which is about 150 metres from my

    2 building, and all the window panes were shattered on our

    3 building and I think one or two doors were also broken

    4 from the explosion. It is from her that I heard that

    5 this was a truck bomb. When the war ended, I went there

    6 and I saw the spot where the explosion occurred.

    7 Q. Mr. Pezer, was it clear to you at the time that the

    8 policeman that told you there was going to be shelling

    9 knew that this bomb was going to be set off in

    10 Stari Vitez?

    11 A. Yes, he knew. All of us detainees were suspicious about

    12 his statement, because to say that there would be

    13 shelling, there were shellings before and they never

    14 announced them, so we had our doubts, and immediately;

    15 we knew that something was being in the making, and we

    16 knew it was not the truth and this was confirmed.

    17 Q. Mr. Pezer, you said previously that you were held in the

    18 cinema building until 30th April. Can you tell us about

    19 your release, exactly what happened on the 30th and

    20 where you went after you were released?

    21 A. On 30th April in the afternoon, we heard from the HVO --

    22 from the policemen that there would be some kind of an

    23 exchange, and on that day, Sefer Halilovic the army

    24 commander came, Sulejman Kalco, and another one, let me

    25 remember -- it does not matter, maybe I will remember

  88. 1 later, and on the side of the HVO there was Petkovic,

    2 who I did not know, and Mario Cerkez, and apparently

    3 they had a meeting -- I just remembered, the third man

    4 on behalf of the Armija was Vehbija Karic. They had

    5 agreed apparently to carry out an exchange and Sefer

    6 Halilovic asked us whether we lived far from the cinema,

    7 whether we could reach our homes before nightfall. We

    8 said we all lived nearby, however let us see who is

    9 going to guarantee our safety when we go home, we said,

    10 because there were cases that HVO members would break

    11 into apartments and kill people. They find them inside

    12 and they simply kill them.

    13 Then Mario Cerkez told us that, as far as our

    14 safety was concerned, there would be absolutely no

    15 problems, the HVO would guarantee our safety. They

    16 left, and later two policemen came. One of them,

    17 I think he was their commander, Zlatko Nakic, and

    18 another military HVO policeman, and they took down our

    19 data, where we had worked, whether we belonged to the

    20 Armija, when we were born, that sort of thing, and Nakic

    21 would write down the date for one set of people and

    22 Jurcevic, the policeman, for another set of people.

    23 We were suspicious, we were wondering why they

    24 were doing these two lists, why one man was not making

    25 the records. We learned later, after our release, that

  89. 1 the names put down by Jurcevic were released that same

    2 day, and those names put down by Nakic, those people

    3 stayed behind and I heard from others that they were

    4 transferred to the camp in Busovaca.

    5 When we were about to be released that evening,

    6 they again took us into the office and somebody called

    7 Krizanac -- I do not remember his first name; he was

    8 working for the Red Cross -- and somebody called Jozic

    9 -- I do not remember his first name either, but I know

    10 he worked in the SPS factory, and he asked us where we

    11 wanted to go, whether we wanted to go home, to Zenica or

    12 to Travnik. Where else would I go but home, not just

    13 I but all of us, so we all said we were going home so

    14 all those whose names were taken down by Jurcevic were

    15 released that evening. We went home and the others

    16 stayed behind.

    17 Q. Was there some difference between those that were

    18 released and the people that were kept and transferred

    19 to the prison in Busovaca?

    20 A. Later we worked out what it was about. All the people

    21 who had any connections with the BH-Army and the

    22 educated people, people who were members of the SDA

    23 party, those people were kept on, whereas the others who

    24 had no connections with anybody, they were released.

    25 Q. After you were released and you went home -- prior to

  90. 1 that, were you given any instructions about whether or

    2 not you could leave your apartment? Were you free to

    3 travel about?

    4 A. We were just given advice. As far as movement is

    5 concerned, it was advice that was given to us, not to go

    6 anywhere, to stay home. As for my apartment -- not just

    7 my apartment, but all the apartments in the building

    8 that I lived in, we were ordered on the first day, on

    9 16th April, that the apartments must not be locked. The

    10 doors must always remain unlocked, so that when they

    11 come to search, they could enter freely.

    12 I also forgot to mention that I was a hunter;

    13 I had a hunting rifle, of course with a licence. I had

    14 an 8577 carbine and a pistol 762. My apartment was

    15 searched 88 times. It may sound strange in 15 days, but

    16 that is the truth. My wife did not wish to give up my

    17 rifle and pistol in spite of the proclamation that all

    18 the Muslims had to surrender their weapons whether they

    19 were legal or illegal. She surrendered the rifle, I do

    20 not remember on what day. It was Zlatko Ruzic who was

    21 my neighbour in the same building, and after maybe 13 or

    22 14 days I called up a military policeman of the HVO and

    23 told him to go to my apartment with my wife and to take

    24 the pistol and to tell them that he had taken the pistol

    25 so that they would leave my wife alone, and so he went

  91. 1 there with my wife, took the pistol and after that they

    2 did not search any more.

    3 Q. Mr. Pezer, after you got back home, did the HVO leave you

    4 and your family alone, or did the problems continue?

    5 A. I did not have problems, only on the first day, but the

    6 second day they came just like that. They walked

    7 through the apartment, they probably saw that there was

    8 nothing to take away because they had already taken away

    9 everything on the first day. There was quite a bit of

    10 gold, because my wife had quite a bit of it. I have

    11 daughters, so they got gold as presents. My

    12 video-recorder was taken away, my hunting binoculars,

    13 and some other things like that. Then, I think it was

    14 on 3rd May in the afternoon, Ibro Gadjun came to my

    15 apartment, who was arrested with me and detained in the

    16 cinema. He told me that I had to go there to report,

    17 that they were looking for me. I said, "Where?"

    18 Q. Let me stop you there. You mentioned "they", the taking

    19 of things that were your property and "they" wanted you

    20 to report to a location in Vitez. Who are you talking

    21 about when you say "they"?

    22 A. I am talking about HVO soldiers. I do not know whether

    23 I need to say it every time, but whenever I am saying

    24 "they", I am referring to members of the HVO, because

    25 they were the ones who held everything under control.

  92. 1 Then I asked Gadjun why they wanted me and he said he

    2 did not know. I begged him to tell me why I should go

    3 there so that I should know what clothes to wear,

    4 because it was late in the afternoon. He did not want

    5 to tell me, but then I went with him. It is a small

    6 house in the Kolonija, where the premises of the local

    7 community used to be, and there was a van waiting for us

    8 there, and I found seven or eight Muslims there who were

    9 already waiting. They themselves did not know why we

    10 had come there and where we were being taken to.

    11 Then a soldier ordered that we get into the van.

    12 He did not want to tell us where we were going, but

    13 I saw from the van the direction in which we were being

    14 driven, and I told them immediately that we were being

    15 taken either to Nadioci or Krisancevo Selo, but they

    16 took us to Krisancevo Selo to dig trenches there. We

    17 got there, it was quite early before dark fell, they put

    18 us up in some weekend houses where the HVO troops

    19 rested, then we had a little rest and then they told us

    20 to go and dig trenches, but not far away, because it was

    21 dangerous, so that we would not be hit by the Armija, so

    22 we dug a trench, which was quite safe in the sense that

    23 we could not be hit by a gun in that position.

    24 When it became dark, they told us we would be

    25 taken to the front lines, and they divided us up into

  93. 1 twos, into pairs for each dug-out, I and my neighbour

    2 Rifet Kajmak dug there, I do not exactly know for how

    3 long, but there was a storm in the making. It started

    4 to rain and a HVO soldier came and told us, "Let us seek

    5 shelter until the storm passes and then we will start

    6 digging again afterwards." So we went back to those

    7 weekend homes. They were in a kind of valley. The rain

    8 continued all night, so that we did not go out again and

    9 then in the morning about 8.00 a van came to pick us up

    10 and took us back home, or rather to the house in the

    11 Kolonija, the small house where the premises of the

    12 local community were, and from there we all went to our

    13 respective homes.

    14 Then in the evening about 10.00 or 10.30, I do not

    15 remember exactly, HVO members came to my entrance of the

    16 building --

    17 Q. Mr. Pezer, before we go into that particular incident,

    18 can we just clarify some points in the incident where

    19 you were taken to dig trenches? Again, using the

    20 photograph that is on the easel, Prosecutor's exhibit

    21 number 45, could you point to the location on the

    22 photograph where you were taken by the HVO out to dig

    23 trenches in the van? Could you do that for us, please?

    24 A. I cannot on this photograph because I cannot see it

    25 there. It is not there. I can show the building that

  94. 1 they brought us to, but I cannot show you where we were

    2 digging the trenches because it is not shown on this

    3 photograph.

    4 Q. The question I am asking is the building that you were

    5 brought to. We will move to the trench location in a

    6 moment. What building were you brought to?

    7 A. That is okay (indicates).

    8 Q. You are pointing to an area near some trees in the

    9 centre of Vitez.

    10 A. The centre of Vitez, it is pretty dark. There are

    11 enormous poplar trees there and probably it was shady

    12 when these pictures were taken. This is a very plain

    13 house; it is not a big building.

    14 Q. If you can stay there for a second, with the assistance

    15 of the usher, if we could turn to the map which is

    16 Prosecutor's exhibit 29, which is over on the wall

    17 there, Claudius.

    18 Mr. Pezer, do you recognise the areas in that map

    19 and the area that you were taken to dig trenches?

    20 A. I will try (indicates).

    21 Q. You are pointing to an area on the map. Is that in the

    22 area of Tolovici?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. You may have a seat. Thank you. Was that the area that

    25 you were taken to dig trenches that evening?

  95. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. How many other men were digging trenches with you that

    3 evening?

    4 A. Eight or ten, roughly that number.

    5 Q. You said that, moving ahead, and I cut you off as you

    6 were beginning to discuss this, that some HVO soldiers

    7 came to your house that evening at about 10.00 or 10.30;

    8 is that correct?

    9 A. Yes. That evening, I think it was the 4th,

    10 approximately 4th May. I think it was 4th May, around

    11 10.00 or 10.30. Children were playing in the stairway

    12 and among these children was my younger daughter. She

    13 ran into our apartment and she told me, "Daddy, here

    14 they come." Quite soon after that, they came to my

    15 door, and they asked me whether I was Pezer, and I said

    16 that I was. They cursed my Balja mother, and they said

    17 that I will remember all the things I said and then

    18 I asked, "What is it that I have been saying?"

    19 One of these soldiers kicked me in the chin, and

    20 he asked me how much time I needed to get ready.

    21 I understood him to be saying that he was looking for

    22 me, and I said, "Me?", and he said, "Not you but you and

    23 your family." He said, "I give you fifteen minutes to

    24 get ready", and he went further on to the fourth floor

    25 and in less than five minutes he came back to the door

  96. 1 and he asked whether we were ready. Then I was supposed

    2 to take a few things, some clothes that my wife had

    3 already prepared, because we were expecting them any day

    4 to expel us or simply we were expecting that we would

    5 have to flee.

    6 I told my wife, "Let us get these suitcases at

    7 least to take that along, the clothes of our children."

    8 One of these HVO members put out his hand this way

    9 (indicates) and he said, "Do not touch anything. Leave

    10 everything the way it is and give me the keys to your

    11 apartment."

    12 I said, "Wait a minute, man", and as soon as

    13 I said that he took his rifle and put it under my chin

    14 and I went silent. I gave him the keys to the apartment

    15 and we went out in front of the building. In front of

    16 the building I saw a military policeman from the HVO

    17 whom I had known well. I thought that we were on

    18 friendly terms, and I asked him, "Dragan, what is this?"

    19 He just shrugged his shoulders and said, "I do not

    20 know."

    21 Q. What was his name?

    22 A. Dragan Calic, a military policeman. In front of the

    23 building a red van was waiting for us. I know that it

    24 was owned by somebody from Mosunj, a Croat from Mosunj,

    25 I do not know his name. I, my wife and my younger

  97. 1 daughter got into the van and then they went to the

    2 other building and they brought a woman called Enesa

    3 Patkovic from that other building and another man and a

    4 woman -- I think they were an elderly married couple;

    5 they were refugees from Olovo -- and we got into the van

    6 and it drove us to the crossroads of the Zenica road,

    7 the road leading to Zenica, and the Vjetrenice road

    8 where the HVO checkpoint was, and literally, he threw us

    9 out of the van. Again, he cursed our Balja mother and

    10 said that we should go to Zenica.

    11 It was raining terribly that evening, and we set

    12 out in that rain, moving towards Vjetrenice. We did not

    13 know where people were until we came up there to

    14 Poculica and it was only then we saw that we were on the

    15 side that was under BH-Army control. We spent the night

    16 at Vjetrenice and on the next day on 5th May we went

    17 down to Zenica and I went to the Red Cross to complain.

    18 The people at the Red Cross said that it was not

    19 possible, and that it was not true. However, I told

    20 them everything that had happened to me, just as I am

    21 telling you now, and I went to see my wife's brother.

    22 We went to his apartment so that I could call Krizanac

    23 in Vitez and the other one. I mentioned him a few

    24 minutes ago; I cannot remember his name -- Jozic.

    25 I wanted to ask them, what was all of that about, what

  98. 1 is it for? They told me that what was done to me was

    2 not actually so, that they were arresting and even

    3 shooting these people who would harass Muslims and they

    4 said I should go back to Vitez straight away. Naturally

    5 I did not believe that.

    6 The next day when I went to the Red Cross, in

    7 front of the Red Cross, I saw quite a few people who

    8 were expelled from Vitez, on this next evening, on

    9 5th May. I told them about my conversation with Jozic

    10 and Krizanac, and they told me that that evening on

    11 5th May about 100 families were expelled from Vitez, the

    12 entire buildings of Vitezanka, Banjolucanka, all the

    13 Muslims from these buildings were expelled and some

    14 others too. At any rate about 100 families were

    15 expelled. I saw quite a few of these people and I do

    16 not know whether it was 100 people altogether or not,

    17 but that is what I heard from them, as I told you, so

    18 I did not even think about going back. I simply would

    19 not dare to.

    20 Q. With the assistance of the usher, could we take the map

    21 down and move back to the photograph that was underneath

    22 it, please?

    23 Mr. Pezer, once again I am asking you to turn your

    24 attention back to the photograph. You mentioned that

    25 100 families were expelled from various houses in Zenica

  99. 1 on approximately 5th May. Could you go to that

    2 photograph and point to the buildings, the three

    3 buildings that you just mentioned?

    4 A. It is Vitezanka.

    5 Q. That is the top building you are pointing to there?

    6 A. The last one?

    7 Q. Yes.

    8 A. Banjolucanka.

    9 Q. That is the next one right below it?

    10 A. This is the Norgorka, these three, these series of

    11 three.

    12 Q. For the record, your Honour, again we are pointing to

    13 Prosecutor's exhibit 45.

    14 Previously in your testimony you said bags were

    15 packed because you were expecting to have to flee. Do

    16 you recall saying that just several minutes ago?

    17 A. It was clear to me that I would have to go, and I gave

    18 advice to my wife. I had actually told her beforehand

    19 that she should leave with the child and leave me

    20 behind, but she did not want to do that. I think that

    21 three or four families had already been moved out, and,

    22 since these families were moved out, I had suggested to

    23 her that she pack these things up, most of them

    24 children's clothing, and I told her that if she would

    25 have the chance, she should leave, but she did not want

  100. 1 to go and I did not think that I would be leaving --

    2 I mean, even when I was released, when he asked me where

    3 I would go, I said I would be going home to my

    4 apartment. However on 4th May in the evening they

    5 forced me out and they would not let me take anything

    6 along.

    7 Q. Were other individuals in your building forced out, both

    8 before and after you were forced out?

    9 A. I was the first one who was forced out of that building,

    10 and in mid-May, the other Muslims from that building

    11 were expelled too, but all the Muslims from my building

    12 were expelled. I was the first to be expelled on

    13 4th May, and after me the others were forced out too.

    14 Q. How do you know that they were expelled? Did you see

    15 them in Zenica?

    16 A. We would see each other in Zenica and we would talk to

    17 each other. It was only natural we asked each other how

    18 we were. I spent some time with these people. Some of

    19 them were expelled in a way which was similar to the way

    20 in which I was expelled, and -- I do not know how to put

    21 this -- others were brought to the line by HVO soldiers

    22 and they would call out to others and say: do not shoot;

    23 and that is how they would cross the line and go to

    24 Zenica and Travnik.

    25 Q. The personal property you left behind in your apartment,

  101. 1 did you ever get any of that property back?

    2 A. No, never.

    3 Q. Did you own an automobile at the time?

    4 A. Yes, I had an automobile. It was in the garage in that

    5 compound consisting of a few garages near the stadium.

    6 On 4th May, the automobile was still in the garage,

    7 because I saw some children around there. I called out

    8 to them, asked them to come to see me underneath my

    9 window, and I asked them whether my car was there and

    10 they said yes, it was, and I threw 2,000 Croatian dinars

    11 out of the window to them and I asked them to close the

    12 door of the garage. I simply thought it would be a good

    13 thing for me to keep the car, but I was expelled that

    14 very evening, so everything was left behind, all my

    15 personal property. Also the weekend house I had was

    16 burned, the store was destroyed, naturally all my things

    17 in the apartment and the car.

    18 Q. All gone?

    19 A. All of it.

    20 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, your Honours. (Pause). Mr. President,

    21 your Honours, we have no further questions of this

    22 witness.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor. Mr. Hayman or

    24 Mr. Nobilo?

    25 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, we do not have very many questions;

  102. 1 we can proceed in two ways. If both Mr. Nobilo and I can

    2 question this witness we can proceed immediately. If we

    3 have to confer, to prepare one of us to conduct the

    4 entire cross-examination, we have to have some period of

    5 time to do that. That probably will be perhaps ten,

    6 fifteen minutes, not very long, but we need some time,

    7 otherwise there is no way for us to combine our

    8 cross-examination into one person, one questioner.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Listen, the Trial Chamber has taken a

    10 decision. We cannot go back on a decision that has

    11 already been taken. I am looking at my colleagues. In

    12 that case, would you like ten minutes to come to an

    13 agreement with your co-counsel?

    14 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, perhaps fifteen because we did not

    15 know who the witness would be and we need a little time

    16 to consult.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: As from now, you know the majority of the

    18 witnesses that have been listed by the Prosecution, so

    19 you must know how you are going to conduct your Defence,

    20 and it will always be one or the other of you. So we

    21 will resume at 5.15 for about 20 minutes. We will now

    22 have a short break.

    23 (5.05 pm)

    24 (A short break)

    25 (5.20 pm)

  103. 1 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Mr. Nobilo or

    2 Mr. Hayman?

    3 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo?

    5 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    6 Sir, I am interested in the position of your

    7 building in view of the frontlines between Stari Vitez

    8 and Vitez; or, to put it differently, when you were

    9 released from the cinema, and when you came home, where

    10 were the positions of the HVO in relation to your

    11 building as it faces Stari Vitez?

    12 A. First of all, my building, the entire building was

    13 there. There were no trenches or anything there; that

    14 is where the line was. There was a privately-owned

    15 house near the apartment building and the market, so

    16 they were there around the building and the market. The

    17 building was in HVO hands.

    18 Q. Can we conclude that that building was at the frontline?

    19 A. I do not know about later.

    20 Q. But when you came, when you saw it?

    21 A. Well, somewhere around there.

    22 Q. Tell me, where was the BH-Army in Stari Vitez in

    23 relation to your building. Where were they? Where were

    24 their strongholds? What did you see when you came back

    25 from the cinema?

  104. 1 A. When I came back from the cinema I was in my apartment

    2 for three to four days. I never saw anyone in

    3 Stari Vitez, in this Muslim part.

    4 Q. That day in the morning, when you were watching the

    5 soldiers, you said that one of them had blood on his

    6 face, that he was hit in the face. Did you hear some

    7 shooting from Stari Vitez?

    8 A. There was some shooting but whether it was from

    9 Stari Vitez or from HVO soldiers, I cannot tell, but

    10 I can just say that I did not see anyone from

    11 Stari Vitez that morning, I only saw members of the HVO.

    12 Q. Tell me: that morning, you recognised two soldiers, did

    13 you not?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And you mentioned their names. Which unit did they

    16 belong to?

    17 A. To the HVO, I guess.

    18 Q. But within the HVO, what unit?

    19 A. I do not know that. I do not know what the setup was

    20 like in the HVO because I was not a soldier, until, let

    21 me think, 1st June, and I did not know that at all. All

    22 of them were HVO to me because they were subordinated to

    23 one command, as far as I know about these matters. They

    24 had one command which was in the hotel and then they had

    25 different commanders or whatever, I do not know how they

  105. 1 subdivided this into other units.

    2 Q. How do you know that they had a single command?

    3 A. I saw it, I lived there, the command was at the hotel.

    4 Q. How do you know that they all obeyed that command?

    5 A. That I do not know. You should ask Mr. Blaskic that.

    6 Q. When you told us that Vitezovi came to your Cevapi, how

    7 did you distinguish between Vitezovi and the other HVO

    8 soldiers?

    9 A. I personally could not distinguish between them, for me

    10 they were all HVO members, but I heard that from my

    11 wife, that those were Vitezovi, the army of Darko

    12 Kraljevic and this same Darko Kraljevic was under the

    13 control of Blaskic, as far as I knew about these

    14 things. And they also had insignia showing Vitezovi; in

    15 addition to HVO they had insignia showing Vitezovi.

    16 Q. You said that you were not involved in army and in

    17 politics. How do you know that Darko Kraljevic was

    18 under the command of Blaskic?

    19 A. I lived in Vitez, sir.

    20 Q. How do you know?

    21 A. It is normal that we talk to each other. I heard about

    22 that; I lived there with other people in Vitez so we

    23 talked a lot about these things and they would say, this

    24 is Darko's army or whatever. But they also had insignia

    25 of the HVO.

  106. 1 Q. I am asking you: who told you that Darko Kraljevic is

    2 under the control of Tihomir Blaskic?

    3 A. I heard that --

    4 JUDGE JORDA: He has given you the answer, Mr. Nobilo. The

    5 witness has answered that question. Please continue; go

    6 on to the next question.

    7 MR. NOBILO: I tried to get a more precise answer.

    8 At the beginning, you said that you thought that

    9 there would be conflict between the BH-Army and the HVO,

    10 but that problems between the Croat and Muslim people

    11 would be worked out, so can you tell me: why did you

    12 think that there would be a conflict between the army of

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO and what were the

    14 problems involved?

    15 A. Before the war, before 16th April, there were always

    16 certain consultations. We would hear this on the

    17 radio. Sometimes I would watch the local television but

    18 usually I would switch it off because they disseminated

    19 these falsehoods and they would say they were meeting

    20 here and there and I said I was not interested in the

    21 army or whatever. I worked in the factory until the

    22 very last day, 15th April.

    23 The afternoon of 15th April at 3 pm, I came back

    24 from the factory, which is telling proof of the fact

    25 that I was not interested in the army and in politics.

  107. 1 I am telling you what I heard about. If an incident

    2 happened in Zenica and Travnik, this had its reflection

    3 in Vitez. After some time the HVO would set up

    4 roadblocks. I was an eye-witness. At the bus station

    5 they would set up a roadblock and whatever Muslim car

    6 came by, they would take them away from them. These

    7 were cars owned by civilians. I always thought that

    8 civilians would be left alone, and that all these

    9 problems that they had between themselves would be

    10 worked out between them some day, but this did not

    11 happen.

    12 Q. In addition to what you said here today, do you know

    13 anything else about Vitezovi or the army of Darko

    14 Kraljevic, as you said?

    15 A. No, I do not know.

    16 Q. Did they wear different uniforms from the rest of the

    17 HVO at some point?

    18 A. There were all sorts of uniforms. There was some kind

    19 of HOS, and then there was this HVO. They were

    20 camouflage uniforms; they were black uniforms. But the

    21 extent to which I saw these people in uniform, over

    22 90 per cent of them had HVO insignia.

    23 Q. On 15th April, in your Cevapi shop in the early evening,

    24 there were quite a few people, you said. Were there

    25 only Croats and Muslims, or only one or the other?

  108. 1 A. There were unknown people; I did not know who they were.

    2 Q. In addition to the checkpoint towards Zenica, near

    3 Vjetrenice, were people free to enter Zenica? Did they

    4 say anything about that?

    5 A. I do not know.

    6 Q. You spoke of the television which you would turn off.

    7 Did you ever see Tihomir Blaskic on television?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did he say something?

    10 A. Yes, once I watched him; it was a talk show. Mr. Blaskic

    11 was there, Mr. Dzemo Merdan.

    12 Q. What did Mr. Blaskic say then?

    13 A. This was as far back as 1992. There were not any major

    14 problems then as far as the army and the HVO is

    15 concerned, at least the way I could see things. They

    16 had a talk show and viewers were able to put questions,

    17 and I for one put a question. I asked Mr. Dzemo Merdan,

    18 and he replied. I was wondering what was more

    19 important; I did not care about the war and I asked him:

    20 what was more important, work assignment or

    21 mobilisation; because I was willing to work but I did

    22 not want to be mobilised. That was the question

    23 I asked, and I saw him on local TV once and that was

    24 what I asked. It was a short show, about half a hour.

    25 Q. What was your assessment of Tihomir Blaskic's show

  109. 1 then? Was it conciliatory; was it warmongering?

    2 A. No, then it was conciliatory. This was 1992 and you

    3 probably know what the situation was like in 1992.

    4 Q. What was your assessment of the situation then in 1992?

    5 What is your assessment?

    6 A. As far as I am concerned, an ordinary citizen, there

    7 were no major problems.

    8 Q. Tell me, in addition to that appearance of Blaskic on

    9 television with Dzemo Merdan, did you hear him on any

    10 other occasion?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. You said that it was only later that you heard what

    13 happened in Zenica on 15th April 1993. What did you

    14 hear?

    15 A. That Zenica was blocked, that apparently this commander

    16 of the HVO in Zenica was arrested, detained, whatever.

    17 I do not know who he was, but I heard about it. My

    18 daughter went to school to Zenica and she was supposed

    19 to come home during the weekend, but the school was

    20 closed that day, and she could not come home because the

    21 road was blocked and I do not know what the real reason

    22 was.

    23 Q. Was somebody killed?

    24 A. I do not know.

    25 Q. Your daughter said that Zenica was blocked. What do you

  110. 1 mean "blocked"; by who?

    2 A. You could not go from Zenica to Vitez; that is what she

    3 told me on the phone. I said then: okay, just stay

    4 there. You do not have to come over at the weekend and

    5 hopefully things will calm down because there were such

    6 situations beforehand too.

    7 Q. Tell me, what was the date when your daughter said

    8 Zenica was blocked and that she could not get out?

    9 A. Either the 14th or 15th, one of those two days, probably

    10 the 15th in the evening when we came home.

    11 Q. Zenica was blocked?

    12 A. That is what they say. I do not know whether it was or

    13 whether it was not.

    14 Q. You said that you do not know whose soldiers those

    15 people who were stealing in Varupa's house were in that

    16 street?

    17 A. I said I knew who they were.

    18 Q. HVO members?

    19 A. That is quite sufficient.

    20 Q. You said you did not know what unit they belonged to?

    21 A. To the HVO, I imagine.

    22 Q. Have you made other statements about these things, about

    23 these events in Vitez, not today but before; did you

    24 make such statements?

    25 A. Yes.

  111. 1 Q. How many times and to whom and when and where?

    2 A. How many times? I think twice.

    3 Q. When?

    4 A. Last year, I think, or the year before last; I do not

    5 know.

    6 Q. To whom?

    7 A. These people, I imagine, from the Tribunal, for

    8 investigating war crimes.

    9 Q. Where?

    10 A. In Zenica.

    11 Q. In what building?

    12 A. At the Tzarina.

    13 Q. Do you know where the Tzarina is?

    14 A. On both occasions, yes.

    15 Q. Is it true that on 10th September 1995 you made a

    16 statement; is that possible?

    17 A. I cannot remember.

    18 Q. Is it true that you said then:

    19 "I am talking about the people who are torching

    20 houses of the two Varupas and who were looting them,

    21 that Jako and Niko Krizanac were members of Vitezovi and

    22 both of them were dressed in black uniforms."

    23 Did you say that on that occasion?

    24 A. Perhaps I did, perhaps I did not, but I do not think

    25 that is important at all. The important thing is that

  112. 1 that morning, they were in action and I know that they

    2 are members of the HVO.

    3 Q. You do not speak English, do you? Do you recognise your

    4 signature?

    5 Mr. President, could I show the statement that was

    6 made earlier by the witness, where he claimed different

    7 things, so that he can see his signature? Thank you.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: When you consult with your co-counsel, please

    9 switch off your microphone.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Sir, did you sign that?

    11 A. I would not know before I read this. It does look like

    12 my signature.

    13 Q. I read it out a few minutes ago and I am asking you to

    14 state whether you did say this or not.

    15 A. Did I say what?

    16 Q. Did you say that both of the Krizanac men belonged to

    17 Vitezovi and wore black uniforms? Is that what you said

    18 then or not?

    19 A. I am telling you again, I am telling you in front of the

    20 entire court, for me, all of them are members of the

    21 HVO. Who are Vitez and who are somebody else, they had

    22 HVO insignia and this same person, Krizanac Jako and

    23 Krizanac Niko, they had Vitezovi insignia too, and

    24 everybody in Vitez knew they were Kraljevic's army, and

    25 Kraljevic again was HVO.

  113. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, perhaps you can continue on another

    2 subject. The President is going to intervene, because

    3 we are departing from the subject. You wish to speak of

    4 a statement made previously and that is your right and

    5 that is quite legitimate. You have just asked questions

    6 which you consider to be useful for the Defence strategy

    7 that you have adopted. You had the answer; now we can

    8 proceed. Is that agreed?

    9 MR. NOBILO: However, we did not receive an answer as to

    10 whether he said that which I read out on that occasion

    11 or not. We have not got that answer yet. So with your

    12 permission, we can put it on the ELMO.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Wait a minute. For the last time, Mr. Pezer,

    14 you are going to put the document on the ELMO. Mr. Pezer

    15 is going to look at the statement, confirm that it is

    16 your signature, confirm that you made the statement, and

    17 the Defence will draw the conclusion it wishes to draw

    18 from that.

    19 Mr. Pezer, will you look at the statement on the

    20 ELMO? You are going to confirm that it is your

    21 signature. Is that your signature, Mr. Pezer? Does it

    22 look like it?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Now you are going to take a little time. It

    25 is the President who is talking to you: take your time;

  114. 1 look at what has been underlined by the Defence, and you

    2 are going to tell us whether you can confirm what you

    3 said or not.

    4 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, the witness does not speak English,

    5 and this is written in English.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. That is a good remark. Therefore the

    7 booth needs to translate into the language of the

    8 witness what has been underlined by the Defence, then

    9 the witness is going to confirm with yes or no whether

    10 he said that and then we can proceed. Can we have this

    11 translated? Mr. Nobilo, will you read the part of the

    12 text that has been underlined?

    13 MR. HAYMAN: If I may do so, your Honour. Part of the

    14 difficulty here is we have a Serbo-Croatian speaker

    15 cross-examining a Serbo-Croatian speaker about a

    16 statement that was made in English. That is part of the

    17 difficulty of my co-counsel, and I, trying to handle

    18 these examinations in the way that we have been ordered

    19 to.

    20 Could the image be enlarged so that I can read

    21 from the video screen, please? If you could focus in on

    22 the second full paragraph; thank you.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Please read it slowly.

    24 MR. HAYMAN: "Among these soldiers that I saw that morning,

    25 looting, bombing and incinerating Muslim houses in

  115. 1 Stari Vitez, I did not recognise anyone except for Jako

    2 and Niko Krizanac, who I know were members of Vitezovi.

    3 Both Jako and Niko were wearing black uniform."

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Pezer, have you understood properly the

    5 question that has been put to you? Will you answer it,

    6 please?

    7 A. This is my statement; however, what is written here

    8 should not be written in this way. Probably the person

    9 who translated this -- I am trying to say it was not

    10 translated properly. This was read out to me. I saw

    11 them in the stairway of my building where I lived, when

    12 they came from down there, but I did not say they were

    13 carrying these things. Most probably the person who was

    14 translating then did not translate it properly, but they

    15 were in that action.

    16 MR. NOBILO: Thank you.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Do you wish to tender this as evidence,

    18 despite what the witness has said?

    19 MR. NOBILO: Yes, certainly.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Yes?

    21 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, given that the relevant portion has

    22 been read into the record, I do not think it is

    23 necessary, unless the court wishes to have the entire

    24 statement marked. For our purposes it is not necessary

    25 that the entire statement become part of the record.

  116. 1 The statement is a hearsay statement.

    2 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I would ask that the entire

    3 statement be put in.

    4 MR. HAYMAN: May we enquire why, your Honour?

    5 MR. KEHOE: In the spirit of totality that the complete

    6 statement be put in, not just the paragraph read by the

    7 Defence. Let your Honours read the whole statement.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: If we do that --

    9 JUDGE JORDA: No, please do not all speak at the same time.

    10 Mr. Hayman.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: If statements are admitted wholesale, we will

    12 greatly prolong these proceedings because we, the

    13 Defence -- or if it is the Defence putting in an entire

    14 out-of-court written statement, then the Prosecution --

    15 we will have to cross-examine the witness not only about

    16 what they have said in court but about every other

    17 statement in the written statement. If that is going to

    18 be the practice, we need to know that so that we can

    19 cross-examine this witness on these additional out of

    20 court statements before the witness leaves the

    21 courtroom.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?

    23 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, in the spirit of totality, if

    24 your Honours want to look at a statement -- the Defence

    25 for instance put in a whole newspaper article concerning

  117. 1 General Alagic when they only read five lines. The

    2 proper method is: if we read a particular extract from a

    3 statement, put the whole statement in.

    4 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, the proper method, with all due

    5 respect, is to bring the witness to the courtroom,

    6 elicit testimony, and subject the witness to

    7 cross-examination. If that testimony deviates from a

    8 prior statement, each party has the right to seek to

    9 impeach that witness. That is the proper procedure.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: There is a difference, Mr. Hayman. Please do

    11 not lead us into a false logic. What the Prosecutor has

    12 said is: when other documents have been submitted, they

    13 were submitted in their totality, but it was you who

    14 raised the question. You raised the question by

    15 extracting this statement and, because it suits you,

    16 according to your strategy, to isolate a certain number

    17 of sentences, you have asked the questions you wanted;

    18 the witness has answered. As from that moment, you are

    19 the one who took the initiative to cite this document.

    20 Therefore this document will be admitted. The incident

    21 is closed and we can now continue with the

    22 cross-examination.

    23 Mr. Nobilo?

    24 MR. NOBILO: I will just put another question. Whose

    25 evidence is this?

  118. 1 JUDGE JORDA: To whom are you addressing your question, to

    2 the witness or the President?

    3 MR. NOBILO: The Defence proposed as evidence only a

    4 citation.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: So to me it seems to be the evidence of the

    6 Defence. You cited it; the Trial Chamber has noted that

    7 all that interests you is this particular sentence. The

    8 Trial Chamber knows that, but it is no less true that it

    9 may need, in the course of its deliberations, to

    10 possibly discuss the whole document, saying: yes, the

    11 witness answered this; he said something very

    12 important. He raised a very important problem in this

    13 Trial Chamber, and that is the question of the taking of

    14 statements from witnesses which are taken in

    15 Serbo-Croatian and they end up in English before the

    16 Trial Chamber. So he could not quite find his place in

    17 that statement, he wanted to explain his statement and

    18 it is therefore quite normal that the whole statement,

    19 in the spirit of totality, should be admitted.

    20 You wanted only three lines to be cited and to be

    21 admitted. It is a Defence exhibit; we the judges know

    22 that you extracted only three lines from it. We know

    23 that. Therefore, let us continue with the

    24 cross-examination. We have only ten minutes left. We

    25 are going to work until 6.00. Mr. Hayman, the discussion

  119. 1 is over; the question has been settled.

    2 MR. HAYMAN: We accept that, but we would like to address

    3 this at a time convenient for the Chamber. It is very

    4 important whether we can use documents to impeach and

    5 not have entire documents, hearsay statements then

    6 becoming part of the record.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I am sorry for being so frank. You

    8 have a very Cartesian spirit. It is an honour to the

    9 country I belong to, but this is not strictly judiciary

    10 logic. Today you invoked a document. It has been

    11 entered into the record. Now you say: for the hundreds

    12 of witnesses that will be cited, we will do the same.

    13 For today, the two judges and the President who is

    14 speaking to you find that the witness wanted to explain

    15 these three lines. I suppose you wanted to contradict

    16 this with another statement he made. He explained it to

    17 you; he explained he could not quite identify what he

    18 said, and therefore the Trial Chamber has the right to

    19 admit this document. On the other hand, the Trial

    20 Chamber would make a mistake if it did not take into

    21 consideration the objections that you have made. They

    22 are in the record. We have nine minutes left.

    23 Mr. Nobilo, please continue.

    24 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. The building in which

    25 you lived, the side that faces Stari Vitez, was it

  120. 1 damaged by bullets?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. On April 16th, did you hear any shelling during the day?

    4 A. There was some shooting. There were all sorts of things

    5 but I cannot really single out shelling and shooting, on

    6 the other hand, because there was chaos all over on the

    7 16th, you know.

    8 Q. Was the cinema exposed to bullets and to shelling?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. During your stay in the cinema, were you physically

    11 harassed?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. In the cinema, you said that the military police were

    14 there. Was it there before the conflict broke out on

    15 16th April? Did you see the military police when you

    16 would pass by there?

    17 A. Yes, there were several policemen there; I do not know

    18 the exact number. Probably they were the security

    19 people of that building because before the war in that

    20 building of the cinema, on the first floor, the

    21 political parties had their offices, the HDZ, the SDS

    22 et cetera, and I think that Croatian television was

    23 there, and these military policemen were probably the

    24 security of that building.

    25 Q. Where were they before the war?

  121. 1 A. Who?

    2 Q. The military policemen.

    3 A. They were across the street from the petrol station.

    4 Q. No, I mean there in the cinema, that building.

    5 A. Oh, in the hallway.

    6 Q. When you came to this cinema, where were the military

    7 policemen then?

    8 A. They were in the hallway, the very hallway -- as soon as

    9 you would walk into the cinema building, they were

    10 there, or it was like a reception desk.

    11 Q. The cinema room, the hall, was it locked when you were

    12 there?

    13 A. On this side from which we had access to the military

    14 policemen, it was not locked.

    15 Q. Were there any military policemen with you in the cinema

    16 room?

    17 A. No, they were on the other side, as I said, in the

    18 hallway.

    19 Q. Did your wife visit you in the cinema?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. How often?

    22 A. Every day.

    23 Q. Would she bring you food or something?

    24 A. She would bring me food.

    25 Q. When you came to Zenica in front of the Red Cross, how

  122. 1 many people did you see there from Vitez?

    2 A. I cannot remember how many. I do not know. I was very

    3 bitter, it was very difficult for me. I think I did not

    4 see anyone.

    5 Q. Other people who lived in your building, were some of

    6 them exchanged for some other civilians from Zenica?

    7 A. I do not know that.

    8 Q. And the people who lived in the other apartment

    9 buildings, those three apartment buildings, the 100

    10 families you mentioned, were they perhaps exchanged?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. During trench-digging, were you harassed?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. What was their attitude towards them?

    15 A. Perhaps this should be explained. I lived there in that

    16 neighbourhood over 20 years, and I knew most of these

    17 people, so probably in view of the fact that we had

    18 known each other before, they did not do anything, but

    19 no, that time when I was there, nobody was harassed.

    20 Q. On 3rd May 1993, when you came to dig trenches in

    21 Tolovici, were the trenches already dug to a certain

    22 point, or were you the first to start digging?

    23 A. No, they were not completed yet, but digging had already

    24 begun before we had come.

    25 Q. But they were not finished?

  123. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. You lived in Vitez for a long time. Did you hear about

    3 any municipal agencies that had conducted private

    4 exchanges of civilians in Vitez?

    5 A. I do not understand.

    6 Q. Did you hear about private municipal agencies that were

    7 involved in exchanges of civilians between Zenica and

    8 Vitez?

    9 A. No.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Just a minute, please. (Pause).

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo. Please continue.

    12 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we do not have a statement, so we

    13 kindly request a couple of minutes to have a look at the

    14 statement so that we could see whether we can use it to

    15 cross-examine, because, unexpectedly, we do not have the

    16 only copy we had of the statement.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: But you have it, do you not? You produced

    18 this statement, Mr. Nobilo. You are talking about the

    19 statement of a moment ago? Mr. Nobilo.

    20 MR. NOBILO: Yes, the statement remained there, by the ELMO.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: That is a technical problem, all right. Maybe

    22 the usher can return your statement to you. Do you have

    23 much longer for the cross-examination? You have other

    24 questions to put to the witness?

    25 MR. NOBILO: No, not very many. Perhaps just a little after

  124. 1 we look at the statement once again.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Switch off your microphone,

    3 please. (Pause).

    4 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the Defence has no further

    5 questions.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Very well.

    7 Judge Riad, do you have any questions to put to

    8 the witness?

    9 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Pezer, and I hope I am pronouncing your name

    10 properly, you mentioned cases of detention of civilians

    11 in the cinema where you were and then searches in

    12 private houses. You spoke of that; you experienced

    13 that. Sending people to the front lines to dig

    14 trenches. You also spoke about expulsions of a hundred

    15 families that were expelled, according to you. Are you

    16 capable of telling us, in a general manner, whether all

    17 these acts were accomplished by members, official

    18 members, of the HVO, or by undisciplined groups in the

    19 region, the majority of these acts? Were they

    20 disciplined, organised, planned in your view, or were

    21 they fortuitous acts taken by people who were under no

    22 discipline?

    23 A. In my opinion, all of this was under control, but see

    24 how they did things. For example, from one village, the

    25 members of the HVO from Bila for example, they would

  125. 1 send them to Kolonija, to the town, and from Kolonija

    2 they would send them elsewhere, so they would not know

    3 other people, you know what I mean. So my neighbour,

    4 for example, who lived with me -- of course I could not

    5 say anything bad about my neighbour because he was nice

    6 to me, but then I hear from other people that he had

    7 gone, for example, to Ahmici, and that he had

    8 slaughtered people or massacred people there, but my

    9 personal opinion is that all of this was under control.

    10 All of this was premeditated, planned, and what they

    11 wanted to do, they did; that is to say that nothing was

    12 done spontaneously, let us say by a gang or somebody;

    13 no, the HVO only.

    14 Q. Therefore there was a system, applied in several

    15 places? You spoke of your neighbours who went to

    16 Ahmici, and they were not from Ahmici, so they were

    17 people who according to a planned system accomplished

    18 these acts in several different places.

    19 A. Yes, I took Ahmici as an example only. I took that as

    20 an example. I did not say that a specific neighbour of

    21 mine had gone to Ahmici, but usually they would go to

    22 other places to do something so that some day I could

    23 not say, "Indeed, that person did such and such a

    24 thing." I could not blame him. Had he done something

    25 in my building I could have blamed him for that, because

  126. 1 that morning of 16th April -- I think there were eight

    2 or nine Croat families in my building -- there was not a

    3 single man there in the morning. I do not know where

    4 they were, but at any rate, every one of them had an

    5 assignment of his own.

    6 Q. And you think that this assignment was organised by the

    7 HVO, was within the framework of the HVO?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Also you spoke to us about a very powerful explosion

    10 that you heard one day at dawn, after the call for

    11 prayer, and you learned the next day that it was a --

    12 you said it was a bomb which exploded close to the

    13 mosque. Did I take down well what you said: an

    14 explosion close to the mosque?

    15 A. If you are referring to the explosion of the trucks

    16 carrying fuel, I do not know. That was about the 20th,

    17 I am not sure, the second or third day after the

    18 conflict with the HVO. That is when I was detained;

    19 that is when that soldier told us not to get out of the

    20 cellar because he was expecting heavy shelling and that

    21 is when this great explosion took place. It is only

    22 later on during the war that I saw how powerful an 82 or

    23 160 grenade was. This was the strongest detonation

    24 I had heard ever in my life and I was even in the

    25 cellar, and that was the explosion that took place near

  127. 1 the mosque, this truck bomb that was sent by the HVO to

    2 Stari Vitez.

    3 Q. Later you could see whether the mosque was damaged or

    4 not, and whether there were any people inside in the

    5 mosque who were wounded or killed?

    6 A. You mentioned the call to prayer. That was on

    7 16th April in the morning at 5.20 or 5.30. But this was

    8 a small explosion, hand grenades that were thrown onto

    9 the cafe. What I told you about now, the truck bomb,

    10 that was the third or fourth day of the fighting. I do

    11 not think that we understood each other correctly.

    12 I probably did not understand you properly.

    13 Q. You were speaking about an explosion next to the

    14 mosque. Was the mosque empty or were there any people

    15 killed inside? That is my question; the date does not

    16 interest me.

    17 A. I do not know, I was detained then.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

    19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEN: Mr. Pezer, I gather that you are not a

    20 military man yourself; is that correct?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. You have lived in Vitez for a long time?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. For how long?

    25 A. In town, from 1976.

  128. 1 Q. You had been accustomed to seeing soldiers in uniform

    2 before?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. You had seen them functioning in a given area before?

    5 A. Please clarify your question.

    6 Q. Did you see soldiers at work in any given area before

    7 16th April 1993?

    8 A. With the exception of the barricade along the roads, the

    9 roadblocks, the only thing I saw -- just a minute. This

    10 was October. The mosque was hit in Stari Vitez by two

    11 grenades. I thought that this was shooting from a

    12 recoiler's gun, but then later I was told (not

    13 interpreted) in October the minaret of the mosque was

    14 hit and I heard one shot and the second time I saw it

    15 with my own eyes when the mosque was hit. This was

    16 October or November, I am not too sure, 1992. Again

    17 there was some kind of conflict between the army and HVO

    18 and they got this anti-aircraft gun out and hit the

    19 mosque.

    20 Q. Perhaps you misunderstood that my interest was in the

    21 explosion in the mosque. You said you saw soldiers

    22 wearing different uniforms, but that they all had the

    23 insignia of the HVO; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Were you aware of the existence in Vitez of a HVO

  129. 1 headquarters then?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Where were the headquarters of the HVO?

    4 A. In the Vitez hotel.

    5 Q. Who was the most senior officer at the HVO headquarters

    6 in the hotel Vitez?

    7 A. I do not know then at that point, probably Blaskic.

    8 I do not know who else, out of the locals, I mean the

    9 people from Vitez, I knew: Skopljak, Marijan, he was

    10 also one of the commanders there, Mario Cerkez. I had a

    11 weekend house in the mountain and I had to come to see

    12 Skopljak so that I could get a permit to go to my

    13 weekend house, and that is how I realised that he was

    14 some kind of commander, but I do not know what rank he

    15 really had.

    16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEN: All right, thank you.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: I have two small questions to address to you.

    18 The first is in addition to the question put by

    19 Judge Riad, because I did not quite understand your

    20 answer, Mr. Pezer. When you spoke of this transfer of

    21 men from one village to another village belonging to the

    22 HVO apparently, to carry out these acts, my question is:

    23 is it your interpretation or is it based on precise

    24 facts? Please think it over closely. I will explain

    25 further my question.

  130. 1 What you said is very serious, because it conveys

    2 the idea of a concerted plan, of a policy to send

    3 somebody elsewhere to commit atrocities, not in his home

    4 and his building but elsewhere, so my question is: is

    5 this your interpretation or is it based on interviews,

    6 on statements by the military, or is it just an idea

    7 that you have, or do you found that idea on very precise

    8 facts?

    9 A. That is my idea, but I also want to tell you the

    10 following. Kolonija, that is what we call the town

    11 where I live too -- all these expulsions were carried

    12 out by people who are not from Kolonja. They came from

    13 these villages, from the outskirts of Vitez, and that is

    14 an obvious example of what was done there as far as

    15 Kolonija is concerned. I do not know about other

    16 places, that is why I say that I assumed something

    17 similar had been done elsewhere too, because as far as

    18 Kolonija is concerned and my building, as I said a few

    19 minutes ago, that morning on 16th April I did not see

    20 any one of my neighbours, the men. On 3rd and 4th May,

    21 I would hardly see them, but none of them came to expel

    22 me from my apartment. People from Mosunj, members of

    23 the HVO, came and expelled by from my apartment.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, you have answered the question. My

    25 second question: have you heard anything about

  131. 1 Mr. Djidic? Did you work under his orders? What did he

    2 do in Vitez and what is your relationship with the

    3 Committee for the Protection of Muslims? Did you have

    4 any role in that committee?

    5 A. I worked in the factory Slobodan Princip Selo. Sefkija

    6 Djidic, as far as I know, was one of the bosses up

    7 there, and before the conflict where he worked and what

    8 he did, that I really did not know, and it says so in my

    9 statement that I was not interested in that, that

    10 I shied away from such things. I really do not know

    11 about this Committee for Protecting Muslims as far as

    12 I am concerned, because I worked at such a place --

    13 I had such a job that I was related -- I was closely

    14 linked to the factory, and I was pleased that I would

    15 not have to take a rifle, a gun and to fight, because

    16 people were already going to Visoko and other places, to

    17 the front.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I think we have concluded. It is

    19 rather late, as we can see.

    20 Very well, Mr. Pezer, the Trial Chamber wishes to

    21 thank you. You are now discharged. We do not need you

    22 any more.

    23 We will resume the hearing tomorrow at 10.00 am.

    24 (The witness withdrew)

    25 (6.20 pm)

  132. 1 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)