International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Case No IT-95-14

  1. 1 Thursday, 21st August 1997

    2 (10.00 am)

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Mr. Registrar, please bring

    4 in the accused.

    5 (Accused brought in)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar, can we please have

    7 Dr. Mujezinovic brought in, so that we can continue with

    8 the cross-examination, which will be carried out either

    9 by Mr. Nobilo or by Mr. Hayman.

    10 (Witness entered court)

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Dr. Mujezinovic, can you hear us?

    12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, thank you. I should like to remind

    14 you that you are still under oath and that now,

    15 Mr. Nobilo is going to continue his cross-examination.

    16 Mr. Nobilo, good morning. Please continue with

    17 your cross-examination.

    18 DR. MUHAMED MUJEZINOVIC (continued)

    19 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO (continued)

    20 Q. Good morning, Mr. President, your Honours.

    21 Dr. Mujezinovic. Yesterday, we were speaking about

    22 the co-ordinating committee for the protection of

    23 Muslims so we shall try to reduce it to one or two

    24 questions. The members of that committee responsible

    25 for the police, were they Saban Mahmutovic and Djidic

  2. 1 Sefkija in charge of national defence? Please tell me,

    2 if the co-ordinating committee were to conclude that

    3 certain decisions of the HVO government were to the

    4 detriment of the Muslims, what would those two members

    5 responsible for the police and national defence

    6 respectively and the decisions have to do with their two

    7 spheres of activity? Would they implement the decision

    8 of the government and write protest letters or would

    9 they implement decisions of the co-ordinating committee?

    10 A. We would always issue statements and if the head of the

    11 police who reported on daily events in Vitez and through

    12 the media -- we issued statements, as I said. At a

    13 meeting, and I spoke about that yesterday, we had

    14 decided that we would not accept a single nation

    15 government in Vitez, and we felt that this was an attack

    16 against the legal authorities in Vitez, and that the

    17 legality of all authorities had been violated, so the

    18 only means we resorted to was the issuance of statements

    19 which may be written by Mr. Djidic Sefkija or by Mr. Saban

    20 Mahmutovic, the two people you mentioned, and these

    21 would be signed by the co-ordinating committee for the

    22 protection of the interests of Muslims in Vitez.

    23 Q. But did those two implement the decisions of the HVO

    24 government?

    25 A. They were not obliged to do so.

  3. 1 Q. Thank you. Do you remember the first parade of the

    2 Territorial Defence which later developed into the

    3 BH-Army in Vitez? Were you present?

    4 A. Yes, I came towards the end of the event.

    5 Q. Was there a rostrum, a stand, a place of honour?

    6 A. Nothing in particular as far as I can remember, I came

    7 towards the end, it was already over. It was in the

    8 secondary school centre in Vitez, and Mr. Djidic Sefkija

    9 had reviewed the units, this was already over, I did not

    10 spend much time there.

    11 Q. Did Djidic Sefkija report to anyone on that occasion?

    12 A. I do not remember.

    13 Q. You said during the direct examination, and I cite:

    14 "I personally had a great many problems with armed

    15 Muslims and Croats performing my duties."

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Can you explain what it is you meant? You explained to

    18 us the problems with the armed Croats. Can you explain

    19 to us what problems you had with armed Muslims?

    20 A. I said yesterday that one of our tasks was to prevent

    21 any incidents in Vitez, to avoid all possible clashes.

    22 I shall give you just one example in Vitez. About

    23 November, two soldiers of the BH-Army were killed, one

    24 was wounded. After that, soldiers of the BH-Army

    25 captured six HVO soldiers, disarmed them and beat them

  4. 1 up. I did not know about it; it happened at night. In

    2 the morning, I attended a meeting when Mr. Djidic Sefkija

    3 stated that the captured HVO soldiers had to be

    4 released, because Mr. Blaskic was threatening him. If

    5 they were not released he would set fire to his

    6 headquarters and to him.

    7 I went to the village of Kruscica where the HVO

    8 soldiers who had been captured were being held and

    9 I told them they had to be released. Unfortunately,

    10 some of them were badly beaten and I was told they had

    11 found a bag with gold jewellery on one of the soldiers,

    12 earrings, bracelets, rings, and on one of the earrings,

    13 they had found traces of blood.

    14 This soldier was called Dragan Botic. I was told

    15 then that he was terribly beaten by Behaija Kavazovic, a

    16 soldier of the BH-Army and he had also mistreated them.

    17 After this the soldiers were released. As far as

    18 I know, the BH-Army soldiers were arrested and taken to

    19 prison. I was threatened by other BH-Army soldiers and

    20 told, "Doctor, you are treating them, you are helping

    21 them and they are killing us."

    22 The Commander of that part of the BH-Army, Hakija

    23 Dzelilovic, said to me on a number of occasions, "People

    24 do not know what you are doing, they will shoot at you",

    25 but I was frequently in the company of HVO soldiers,

  5. 1 particularly when we were refurbishing the Kruscica

    2 motel to make a war hospital there. There were threats

    3 made to me personally.

    4 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you listed a series of

    5 incidents committed by members of the HVO army against

    6 inhabitants of Vitez. Can you tell me, in general

    7 terms, without going into any details, that members of

    8 the BH-Army would provoke an incident and resort to

    9 violence?

    10 A. I can tell you quite frankly that there were

    11 occasionally tit for tats; for instance if HVO soldiers

    12 disarmed a BH soldier, then these would disarm HVO

    13 soldiers. There were this kind of incidents; or if they

    14 confiscated a car, for instance, then BH-Army soldiers

    15 would reciprocate.

    16 Q. Were there any incidents with the use of firearms on

    17 both sides?

    18 A. I just told you a story when there were some killed and

    19 wounded people. I do not know what more I could tell

    20 you.

    21 Q. Apart from this isolated incident that you have

    22 described, was it a phenomenon that repeated itself?

    23 A. I told you that there was reciprocation. I do not know

    24 to what extent and how many, but we tried to deal with

    25 these problems and official statements were issued,

  6. 1 telling them not to disarm one another, to allow convoys

    2 to pass through checkpoints, of course, after being

    3 announced in advance, not to mistreat people at

    4 checkpoints and not to rob them, but after that, there

    5 was reciprocation on the other side too, as I said.

    6 Q. You mentioned regarding the statement that you signed

    7 and the circumstances under which you signed it that

    8 there were some soldiers extraneous to the region. Do

    9 you know whether there were any units from Herzegovina

    10 in your municipality at the beginning of 1993?

    11 A. I know that a unit came which was housed in the

    12 elementary school in Dubravica and on one occasion

    13 I visited an elderly sick Croat, Ivica Marijanovic.

    14 I think this was some time in January, the second half,

    15 I am not sure. The man complained that the soldiers

    16 were disturbing him. He went over to them and asked

    17 them, "Why are you shooting?" They answered, "We are

    18 shooting at the birds." When these people came to

    19 Vitez, it was really hell. I was not told anything

    20 officially, but I heard that they were a unit from

    21 somewhere. Where they came from I do not know, but

    22 I know they were not from Vitez.

    23 Q. And this Marijanovic, is he a Croat?

    24 A. Yes, a Croat.

    25 Q. Did I understand you well, that the intensity of these

  7. 1 incidents increased when this unit arrived in Vitez?

    2 A. I saw these soldiers myself, I saw them breaking up a

    3 butcher's shop together with HVO units from Vitez, then

    4 the city pharmacy. I saw this myself, and I stated

    5 yesterday that this was after midnight.

    6 Q. Did this unit have any special patches on their sleeves

    7 to differentiate them from the local ones?

    8 A. Yes, they had a leaf, an oak leaf I think, or a elm

    9 leaf. They could be seen in the afternoons. I did not

    10 move around much because I did not dare. I moved in my

    11 car until it was taken away from me.

    12 Q. You spoke about robberies at local checkpoints. Can you

    13 tell me whether these robberies had any ethnic

    14 characteristics or was everyone robbed, Muslims and

    15 Croats alike, anyone who had any valuables?

    16 A. The local Muslims were indeed robbed, but so were Croats

    17 who were not from Vitez. They complained to me, people

    18 who were travelling with Muslims, for instance people

    19 who came from the region of Tesanj. On one occasion

    20 I appeared on local television in October. Some young

    21 men had been deprived of their vehicle, of their car and

    22 they asked me to help them. This was a mixed group;

    23 there were Muslims and Croats in it. They came to the

    24 infirmary and asked me to help them.

    25 Q. Do you know of any Croatian business that was blown up?

  8. 1 A. I know that in the district of Rijeka, Nikica Gotovac's

    2 shop was blown up.

    3 Q. He is a Croat?

    4 A. Yes, and Ivica Santic asked me whether I knew anything

    5 about the case. This is a suburb of Vitez actually.

    6 I heard from people from the area that an HVO soldier

    7 had threatened in the evening, demanding 10,000 marks

    8 from the owner of the establishment, and that is what

    9 I told Ivica Santic. He was a rather aggressive person;

    10 he did not behave quite normally. He was very

    11 aggressive with weapons, and I told him that people were

    12 saying that this young man had thrown a hand grenade

    13 into the establishment.

    14 Q. Were there any other cases of establishments owned by

    15 Croats being blown up?

    16 A. It was reported that in Stari Vitez, a shop had been

    17 looted owned by Nikola Krisanovic. I do not recall any

    18 other incidents.

    19 Q. Do you know anything about the existence of criminal

    20 gangs wearing uniforms and engaging in crime proper?

    21 A. For me, a soldier is a soldier, and if he is a soldier

    22 he has his command to answer to. The command has to be

    23 responsible for uniformed soldiers and has to sanction

    24 them. At official meetings, Anto Valenta would

    25 frequently say, "It is an informal armed group that is

  9. 1 responsible." However, in Vitez, HVO had a lot of

    2 troops that were very well armed and very well

    3 organised. As a person, I was surprised that an armed

    4 group could do such things when there was so many armed

    5 formations around.

    6 Q. How can you distinguish a soldier from a civilian? By

    7 what? What is your way to distinguish them?

    8 A. Soldiers wear uniforms. In Vitez, the soldiers were

    9 wearing black and camouflage uniforms of the HVO, and

    10 the BH-Army soldiers mostly wore camouflage uniforms

    11 with the insignia of the BH-Army. Some of them wore

    12 black uniforms but very rarely.

    13 Q. In those days, in 1993, beginning of 1993, when you

    14 moved around Vitez, particularly in the areas where the

    15 Croats were in the majority, were the men mostly in

    16 uniform or were uniformed people in a minority? What

    17 was the ratio between civilians and uniformed people?

    18 Who were in the majority in the streets?

    19 A. The situation in Vitez in the morning appeared almost

    20 normal. I went to work normally and then in the

    21 afternoon and in the evenings, the situation

    22 deteriorated. There would be firing, grenades would go

    23 off. People mostly kept to their homes. In downtown

    24 Vitez, there were not places exclusively inhabited by

    25 Muslims and others by Croats, particularly in these

  10. 1 apartment buildings. The tenants were ethnically mixed,

    2 one flat next to another, or even houses were mixed too

    3 in the area of Vitez under the control of the HVO, with

    4 the exception of the village of Rijeka for instance

    5 which was perhaps 90 per cent inhabited by Croats.

    6 As I was saying, in the mornings things were

    7 almost normal, but frequently, we would see the results

    8 of the previous night, that some establishments were

    9 destroyed, devastated, or looted, the windows having

    10 been broken.

    11 Q. I was asking you whether the men were predominantly in

    12 uniform or in civilian clothes?

    13 A. Both.

    14 Q. Can you tell us what the proportion was?

    15 A. There were far more troops, soldiers,.

    16 Q. So there were more men in uniform than in civilian

    17 clothes?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Thank you. Can you remember the period of October 1992

    20 and the conflict that occurred in Novi Travnik and the

    21 roadblocks in Ahmici. You just mentioned that in

    22 passing. What was it that happened in Novi Travnik in

    23 October 1992?

    24 A. In my testimony yesterday, I mentioned that I was the

    25 doctor on duty in the internal medicine ward in

  11. 1 Travnik. This duty lasted 48 hours over the weekend,

    2 and on Monday when I was handing over my duty, the

    3 wounded started coming in from Novi Travnik. I learnt

    4 in the hospital already that there had been a conflict

    5 between the BH-Army and the HVO in Novi Travnik.

    6 I went to do some work in the clinic in Vitez, and

    7 went home to sleep. The next day, when I went to work,

    8 I wanted to take my car because I worked at several

    9 places and my neighbour, Nikola Omerdic, told me not to

    10 take my car because it would be taken away from me by

    11 HVO soldiers. I asked why and he said, "You see, there

    12 has been a conflict." "Where?" "In Ahmici", he said.

    13 I went to the health centre and there the staff were

    14 rather scared and as the acting doctor of the health

    15 centre, it is a big building with a lot of glass, and

    16 I said that we had to move to the reserve location that

    17 we had which was safer, so we moved. During the day we

    18 could hear fire later, but we admitted four or five

    19 Muslim civilians that day. My colleague Dr. Bruno Buzuk,

    20 a dentist, who was then acting as a kind of health

    21 minister in the HVO government, warned the personnel,

    22 the staff, not to go out into the street because Muslim

    23 snipers were shooting.

    24 I asked him, "Bruno, what do you mean? How come

    25 Muslim snipers when Muslim civilians are coming to the

  12. 1 hospital wounded?" He gave me an uncertain answer, a

    2 vague answer. In the course of the day, we did not have

    3 too much work to do, and in the afternoon, a friend of

    4 mine, a Croat, came and told me that the BH-Army had

    5 confiscated his car. Ilija Safradin is his name.

    6 Q. Did any dead soldier from either side arrive from Ahmici

    7 on that day?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Did you go to the roadblock in Ahmici?

    10 A. No, I just sent drivers because we were told there were

    11 some people wounded.

    12 Q. You mentioned your colleague from Zenica in Nadioci who

    13 did an inquest of the dead body destroyed by an

    14 explosion. Do you know who the perpetrator of that act

    15 was?

    16 A. I really do not know, but I was called in as a doctor to

    17 establish death and my colleague who had only just come

    18 from Zenica, Pehar, I do not remember his first name,

    19 who would come to work with us from time to time, and

    20 ask him to go.

    21 Q. Yes, you explained that yesterday. In the direct

    22 examination, you said that the municipal government of

    23 HVO gave you assurances in writing that the situation

    24 would calm down if you recognised the authority of that

    25 government. Have I remembered what you said correctly?

  13. 1 A. We were told orally that we the Muslims in Vitez must

    2 accept the new HVO government and that officials of

    3 Muslim nationality in that government from the civilian

    4 branch, the civil police, the defence, should take their

    5 posts in that government.

    6 Q. Yes, you explained that, but if you had accepted that,

    7 would the situation have calmed down or would it have

    8 gone the way it did anyway?

    9 A. To tell you the truth, it was not up to me alone to

    10 decide, I was just one of the members of the SDA. The

    11 opinion of people was as follows, that the legitimacy of

    12 the legal authorities had been violated since the flags

    13 of the Croatian republic of Herceg-Bosna and the

    14 Croatian state had been hoisted, that this was an attack

    15 against the very state.

    16 Q. I beg your pardon, you already said that. Could you

    17 just tell me what you think, whether the situation would

    18 have calmed down or not.

    19 A. I do not know what would have happened. I cannot say.

    20 Q. In that context, when the HVO wanted to subjugate you,

    21 do you know anything about the joint command for Central

    22 Bosnia between the BH-Army and the HVO, Prkacin,

    23 Pasalic?

    24 A. I have heard of both of them. Personally I am not

    25 acquainted with either. I was told they were

  14. 1 co-operating well.

    2 Q. You mentioned Ante Prkacin and Arif Pasalic?

    3 A. I heard at meetings that they were co-operating quite

    4 well.

    5 Q. But you do not know the details?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. You mentioned Cerkez as the commander of the HVO already

    8 in 1992 in Vitez. What was Marijan Skopljak?

    9 A. Marijan Skopljak was elected after the elections as head

    10 of the MUP or SUP in Vitez, and that was his position

    11 throughout 1990 and the first half of 1991, until he

    12 became President of the HDZ for Vitez.

    13 Q. Marijan Skopljak --

    14 A. No, Pero Skopljak, I am sorry.

    15 Q. But I am asking about Marijan Skopljak.

    16 A. Marijan Skopljak, I do not know exactly, I think that he

    17 was involved with defence affairs. Stipo Krizanac was

    18 elected to that post at the formal elections, but he

    19 took over in 1992.

    20 Q. Was he superior to Cerkez?

    21 A. I really do not know the structure in the HVO.

    22 Q. Very briefly, please, you have identified on the

    23 photograph Prosecutor Anto Valenta, Ignjac Kostroman and

    24 Dario Kordic wearing military uniforms. Were they

    25 civilian or military officials as far as you know?

  15. 1 A. As far as Dario Kordic is concerned, he was always in

    2 military uniform. I never saw him in civilian clothes.

    3 We were just told that he was President of the Croatian

    4 Community of Herceg-Bosna and that he held the rank of

    5 colonel, so he performed both positions. He had

    6 military rank. I do not know exactly what his role was,

    7 but that is how he was introduced.

    8 Q. What about Anto Valenta? Did he have any military role?

    9 A. Anto Valenta was mostly in uniform and in the second

    10 half of 1992, he was also introduced as one of the

    11 Vice-Presidents of Herceg-Bosna. What exactly his

    12 position was in the hierarchy I do not know.

    13 Q. In the medical centre and today in Kruscica as well, you

    14 told us you were preparing a war hospital. Did you have

    15 a surgery?

    16 A. Just a small minor surgery.

    17 Q. Can you explain?

    18 A. Yes. These are minor injuries, for instance of the

    19 stomach or the head. This was something that we were

    20 not equipped for.

    21 Q. So you did not have a proper surgical theatre, operation

    22 room?

    23 A. No, we had no anaesthetics.

    24 Q. After the beginning of the conflict, was your house

    25 guarded by the HVO police?

  16. 1 A. Which conflict?

    2 Q. After the beginning of the war, after 16th April 1993,

    3 was your house or rather your apartment guarded?

    4 A. As far as I was able to see from my apartment and at my

    5 entrance to the apartment building I was living in,

    6 there were armed people, not policemen but mostly local

    7 people who were armed and we were prohibited from moving

    8 around.

    9 Q. Did you see this as protection or control?

    10 A. On the first morning, my immediate neighbour came to

    11 tell me that my family and I would be executed because

    12 we had not been obedient. My family and my neighbours

    13 were under terrible pressure and fear.

    14 Q. Did you feel safer with armed people in front of your

    15 apartment or not; that is my question.

    16 A. I would have preferred not to have anybody armed there,

    17 because I thought that we did not need armed people in

    18 town. That was the opinion I upheld in Vitez, only the

    19 civilian police.

    20 Q. But when the war broke out, did you see this as

    21 providing greater security or not?

    22 A. I saw this as withholding freedom of movement, as a kind

    23 of arrest, not just for me but for all the inhabitants.

    24 Q. What about the fact that you were driven by car to your

    25 work and back? Was this to protect you or to limit your

  17. 1 freedom of movement?

    2 A. I do not know who made the decision, but I was driven to

    3 and from work all the time. Dragan Petrovic was my

    4 driver. He was also my neighbour; I knew him very

    5 well. He was polite towards me.

    6 Q. So did you consider this as a service?

    7 A. I was glad that somebody would talk to me normally. You

    8 see, as a doctor, we did a lot of hard work. I never

    9 thought about these things, I concentrated on saving as

    10 many lives as possible.

    11 MR.. HARMON: Excuse me, your Honour, I would ask that

    12 Mr. Nobilo allows the witness to conclude his answer

    13 before he asks the next question.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: I support what the Prosecutor has said.

    15 I think that some of these matters were reviewed in

    16 private session yesterday, I think, at the request of

    17 the Prosecution, some of the aspects of the questions

    18 you are putting to the witness now. I am just taking

    19 advantage of the opportunity to indicate this, but

    20 otherwise, please continue and bear this in mind.

    21 MR.. NOBILO: Mr. President, I absolutely have in mind the

    22 aspects of the private session. The thing with the

    23 driver, this was regular going to work and coming back

    24 from work. Perhaps I have been interrupting the witness

    25 a bit because I have been trying to speed things up.

  18. 1 Thank you.

    2 Dr. Mujezinovic, let us sum this up. Your

    3 political work in the municipality of Vitez, when did it

    4 begin, what month, and when did it end?

    5 A. My political work began in September 1991, and finished

    6 on 1st November 1995. Since then, I have not been

    7 involved in any political or whatever things. I have

    8 been working as a doctor.

    9 Q. But in Vitez -- I imagine that you stopped working

    10 politically when you left Vitez?

    11 A. I was always on the territory of the municipality of

    12 Vitez.

    13 Q. Tell me, if we confine ourselves to the beginning of

    14 your political work in the municipality of Vitez, until

    15 the day you left your apartment or perhaps until the

    16 outbreak of the war, so April 16th, how many meetings

    17 did you have with the representatives of the Croatian

    18 people as you tried to quiet things down?

    19 A. Very many.

    20 Q. Approximately, per month or per week, if you can give me

    21 a figure?

    22 A. I can say that I did not take part in all these

    23 meetings, because I had three places where I worked. At

    24 least twice a week, perhaps even more often, but I did

    25 not participate in all meetings.

  19. 1 Q. In addition, you said that there were private

    2 contacts -- please.

    3 A. For example, the co-ordinating committee for protecting

    4 the interests of Muslims in Vitez, it was said that Fuad

    5 Kaknjo and Kajmovic Munir as the President of the SDA in

    6 Vitez, that they should permanently, every day, be in

    7 touch with Ivan Santic and co-operate with him and Anto

    8 Valenta and Pero Skopljak, to be in touch every day.

    9 Q. Can we say that in that period there were private

    10 contacts and official contacts, that there were several

    11 hundred such contacts?

    12 A. Private, you mean?

    13 Q. And official.

    14 A. I could not tell exactly. You see, try to understand

    15 me, I could not go from the place where I worked to my

    16 home without meeting, say, five different people who

    17 would stop me and that is about 500 metres; that is only

    18 when I went home. Whether it was 100, 200, 500 or 1,000

    19 I really cannot tell.

    20 Q. Can you say in all fairness that as a citizen, as a

    21 politician, if that is the proper word to use, that you

    22 did everything that you could, that you talked to

    23 everyone, to all people who were important, in order to

    24 resolve the situation in Vitez? Would that be a fair

    25 assessment?

  20. 1 A. First of all, I am a doctor, and a citizen, and then a

    2 politician. I should say to you that absolutely, truly

    3 absolutely, I exposed myself to danger. I could have

    4 lost my life on many occasions, but I did this so that

    5 I could do everything in my ability to prevent these

    6 things in Vitez.

    7 Q. Thank you. How many times did you talk to

    8 Tihomir Blaskic?

    9 A. Officially I never met Mr. Tihomir Blaskic.

    10 Q. Do you know him here? Can you recognise him here now?

    11 A. I know the gentleman from television and from the

    12 street, but officially, I never met him, nor did I ever

    13 talk to him.

    14 Q. On the phone?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Personally?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Did you see an order issued by him?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Which one?

    21 A. At a meeting some time in October, it was showed to

    22 us -- there was a document showing that we were being

    23 supported by Commander Tihofil Blaskic, commander of

    24 operations for central Bosnia.

    25 Q. What do you mean by support?

  21. 1 A. It was to say through his orders he would prohibit

    2 looting, robbery at checkpoints, that he would make

    3 every effort to stop the torching of houses of prominent

    4 Muslims; that is what we were told at an official

    5 meeting, and personally, if you want me to use the Croat

    6 word, the other word for personally, we never talked on

    7 the phone. I only saw him in Vitez, I mean I first saw

    8 him with the HVO army when the army was being sworn in

    9 and a soldier had fainted there, so I was there. That

    10 was the first time I physically saw his face. I do not

    11 know exactly when this happened.

    12 Q. You do not know anything else about him?

    13 A. No.

    14 MR.. NOBILO: Mr. President, I have completed my questioning

    15 and my colleague Mr. Hayman will continue.

    16 Cross-examined by MR.. HAYMAN

    17 Q. Mr. President, learned colleagues, Dr. Mujezinovic.

    18 If at any time in my questioning you would be more

    19 comfortable responding to a question excluding the

    20 public, that is in closed session, please so indicate.

    21 Do you understand that?

    22 A. Yes, I understand that.

    23 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you. Perhaps as I am asking my first

    24 questions, your Honour, the Registrar could retrieve

    25 exhibit 45; that will be the first exhibit I will be

  22. 1 using.

    2 Turning to the subject of the photograph you were

    3 shown of Messrs Valenta, Kordic and, I believe,

    4 Skopljak, all in uniform, and about which you had a

    5 recent exchange with my colleague, Mr. Nobilo, you said,

    6 I believe, that on the occasion you met Mr. Kordic, he

    7 was introduced to you as a colonel?

    8 A. What do you mean? Could you please repeat your

    9 question?

    10 Q. You said in your earlier testimony that you met

    11 Mr. Kordic on one occasion; is that right?

    12 A. I said in my statement that on several occasions I was

    13 officially present at meetings at the level of the

    14 Travnik region or Busovaca Novi Travnik region, Travnik

    15 region where Dario Kordic was present too. On one

    16 occasion, I was in charge of organising the health

    17 services in Vitez, organising health services in a war

    18 situation with Dr. Bruno Buzuk. I went to Busovaca

    19 because he had suggested it to me because we needed

    20 quite a few things in order to get things going, and he

    21 told me that the only person who could help was -- we

    22 went to the hotel Tisa and he told me that Dario Kordic

    23 was a Colonel. I did not know that his mother was a

    24 doctor. I did not know then that he went to school in

    25 Vitez, I mean that he went to high school in Vitez.

  23. 1 He asked me, "What is up, doctor?" I told him why

    2 I came and he took a paper, he signed it and he said,

    3 "Take this paper, go to Grude and bring in three War

    4 Hospitals." After that, privately, I had no contacts

    5 with Dario Kordic, except at official meetings, and

    6 I heard him on radio and television and at official

    7 meetings where we were among the people who were

    8 attending them.

    9 Q. Thank you. Most of my questions will call for a yes or

    10 no answer. If you wish to elaborate, you may, but

    11 I would ask that you attempt to limit your answer to the

    12 question and not volunteer additional information. I am

    13 sure after my examination if you feel that I have not

    14 given you full opportunity to explain your answers, the

    15 Prosecutor will in his redirect. Do you understand

    16 that?

    17 A. Yes, I understand that.

    18 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be

    19 permitted to answer questions fully and completely and

    20 in the way he is comfortable in answering the questions.

    21 MR. HAYMAN: His answers have to be responsive, your Honour,

    22 and we are having difficulty in that regard, with all

    23 due respect to counsel and to the doctor.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Listen, let us not dispute, have a quarrel on

    25 answers that have still not been given.

  24. 1 Mr. Hayman, you put the questions; the Prosecutor

    2 will see whether he wants to object to them and above

    3 all, the judges. You may have a preference regarding

    4 the answer, that it should be brief, but the witness is

    5 free to answer those questions as he wishes. Mr. Hayman,

    6 please continue.

    7 MR. HAYMAN: I asked you if you were ever introduced to

    8 Mr. Kordic. Can you answer that yes or no?

    9 A. Yes, I already explained that.

    10 Q. Is the answer yes?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Thank you. On that occasion, was he introduced to you

    13 as a colonel?

    14 A. Yes, Bruno Buzuk, as I just told you; I just told you

    15 the story now -- I do not know why I should be repeating

    16 this -- in the hotel Tisa, Dr. Bruno Buzuk introduced

    17 Dario Kordic to me as a colonel. It was very early and

    18 I was surprised.

    19 Q. Do you know what Tihomir Blaskic's rank was in the HVO?

    20 A. I know. I think he is a lieutenant-colonel or a

    21 colonel. I do not know the ranks in the HVO. I think

    22 he is a colonel or a lieutenant-colonel. I do not know,

    23 I really do not know their hierarchy. I think he is

    24 something like that.

    25 Q. Can you tell us anything about the relationship in the

  25. 1 HVO military chain of command between Dario Kordic and

    2 Tihomir Blaskic?

    3 A. I am not sure; I can only give you my opinion. Is that

    4 what you wish?

    5 Q. If you can tell us anything I am inviting you to

    6 comment.

    7 A. In my opinion, a far higher post was held by Dario

    8 Kordic, political and military, and I do not know whose

    9 post in the military hierarchy of the HVO was higher;

    10 who was subordinated to whom, I do not know.

    11 Q. Do you have any doubt that Dario Kordic held such a high

    12 position that he was in a position to give direct orders

    13 to HVO troops; do you have any doubt about that?

    14 A. He could directly issue such orders, I do not know

    15 really to what extent. I can claim that I am not

    16 familiar with the military hierarchy in the army of the

    17 HVO. I do not know. I am not familiar with these

    18 military affairs and this military hierarchy in the

    19 HVO. I truly do not know.

    20 Q. Thank you. If you do not know the answer to a question,

    21 please tell us that you do not know.

    22 We have placed on the easel Prosecutor exhibit 45,

    23 on top of which has been placed a plastic overlay. What

    24 I am going to ask is -- first I will mark the overlay so

    25 that it can be placed again in the same location for

  26. 1 accuracy. Then I am going to ask that you mark certain

    2 borders. First, if I may take a moment, your Honour,

    3 I would like to mark the transparency so that its

    4 position can be replicated. (Pause).

    5 A. I cannot hear anything.

    6 MR. HAYMAN: I have not posed a question.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: I apologise.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: Of course, Mr. President.

    9 Doctor, I have now marked the transparency at the

    10 top on the right-hand side and around the legend box in

    11 red. Do you see that?

    12 A. Yes, I see that.

    13 Q. You were a resident of Vitez in the 1980s and the early 1990s; is

    14 that right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. You know the neighbourhoods in Vitez?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Is there a neighbourhood known as Kolonija?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Are you able to, first let me ask you, to mark the

    21 boundaries of the neighbourhood known as Kolonija as you

    22 understand them?

    23 A. I can respond to that. In Vitez, we called apartment

    24 buildings Kolonija, where there were several apartments,

    25 and we did not call family homes Kolonija. Only

  27. 1 apartment buildings, we only called apartment buildings

    2 Kolonija and private family homes were never called

    3 Kolonija. For example in Stari Vitez and around that

    4 area, that was never called Kolonija, only apartment

    5 buildings. Do you really want me to draw that?

    6 Q. Was there a general portion of Vitez stretching from

    7 somewhere to the east of the stadium to the east that

    8 was principally dominated by a number of good-sized or

    9 large apartment buildings?

    10 A. I can show it to you.

    11 Q. Are you able to answer the question or would you rather

    12 show us? Before you mark the easel, doctor, could you

    13 tell us what you have in mind?

    14 A. Apartment buildings in Vitez that we in Vitez called

    15 Kolonija.

    16 Q. Before you mark the easel, let me ask you, was there a

    17 neighbourhood known as Kolonija? If you could answer

    18 that question before you mark the transparency?

    19 MR. HARMON: Dr. Mujezinovic did not have his earphones on

    20 when you asked that last question.

    21 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you.

    22 Doctor, before you mark the easel, can you tell us

    23 what you propose to do?

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, are you afraid that there may be a

    25 difference between your question and what he is going to

  28. 1 draw? You must choose. Either you are going to ask the

    2 witness to show you on the map what you consider to be

    3 the Kolonija and he will do it or not, or you ask him to

    4 answer a question regarding the Kolonija neighbourhood.

    5 If you ask him to mark on the map the Kolonija district,

    6 let him do it. If he makes a mistake, you will redo the

    7 map.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: I want him to do that, your Honour.

    9 Let me ask you this question before you mark it.

    10 Can you mark a district or a neighbourhood that was

    11 known as Kolonija? Can you do that for us? Before you

    12 mark, can you answer my question, please? Would you

    13 please speak into the microphone by the easel so the

    14 interpreters can pick up what you say?

    15 A. I did not understand you. What do you really want? Do

    16 you want me to draw the Kolonija neighbourhood? Do you

    17 want me to encircle it with a red pen? What is the

    18 neighbourhood of Vitez what was called Kolonija; is that

    19 what you want?

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Let us try and make a little progress after

    21 all. Listen, I think you asked the witness to indicate

    22 on the map the Kolonija neighbourhood.

    23 Dr. Mujezinovic, can you please show us on the map

    24 what you consider to be the Kolonija neighbourhood and

    25 then we will go on to the next question.

  29. 1 A. The local community of Kolonija, this part of Vitez

    2 (drawing) this way, this way too. That would be

    3 Kolonija approximately, a residential area with big

    4 apartment buildings. This was a local community. This

    5 was also the local community, you know, but we

    6 specifically called this neighbourhood, these big

    7 apartment buildings, Kolonija, with the municipal

    8 administrative centre; and the local community, I do not

    9 know what are all the places that belong to the local

    10 community itself. This is Gradina; probably that

    11 belonged to it. Kruscica is up here.

    12 Q. Thank you, let me join you for a moment and make sure

    13 that the boundaries have been clearly marked.

    14 A. In my opinion, that is Kolonija.

    15 Q. Am I accurately tracing over your line, doctor, to make

    16 it appear more clearly?

    17 A. Did you ask me about the local community of Kolonija or

    18 did you ask me about the neighbourhood of Kolonija?

    19 Q. I asked you about the neighbourhood. Is that what you

    20 marked on the map in red?

    21 A. Yes, that is it.

    22 Q. Is that different from the local community of Kolonija?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Can you describe the local community of Kolonija insofar

    25 as it is different from the neighbourhood Kolonija.

  30. 1 Without marking it, can you describe it in words? Is it

    2 larger or smaller?

    3 A. Bigger.

    4 Q. It is bigger?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. So the local community is bigger and what you have

    7 marked is the smaller of the two, the neighbourhood

    8 Kolonija.

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Okay. Do you see where I have traced over your line on

    11 the right-hand side of the transparency?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Have I accurately written over the line that you drew?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. I would like to continue and if you would watch me,

    16 because I will ask you the same question when I have

    17 completed.

    18 A. No, not there. The apartment buildings here, that is

    19 what we called Kolonija. Apartment buildings in Vitez.

    20 Q. Have I accurately traced over your line to mark it more

    21 clearly on the exhibit?

    22 A. Yes, that is what we called Kolonija.

    23 Q. Thank you; you may be seated.

    24 A. I do not know officially, but we, the ordinary people,

    25 that is what we called Kolonija.

  31. 1 Q. Thank you. Were you present at a meeting in October

    2 1992 concerning the roadblock that was established on

    3 the road from Busovaca to Vitez in the neighbourhood of

    4 Ahmici at which Mr. Cerkez and Mr. Santic came and met

    5 with a number of representatives of the civilian and

    6 military Muslim authorities?

    7 A. As a doctor, I organised that meeting through Mr. Ivica

    8 Santic, and I think that Anders Levison was the name of

    9 the head of the UNHCR. I went to Stari Vitez to give a

    10 car back to a Croat. I went to the command of the TO in

    11 the high school and I was told there was some shooting

    12 the previous night, that the office of the commander of

    13 the TO had been hit, and that he was not there in the

    14 building but that he was at the reserve command position

    15 in Stari Vitez. I took an ambulance there.

    16 I was driven there by Stipo Kristo, the driver of

    17 the ambulance, a Croat, and I found Sefkija Djidic

    18 there, and I said why I came, that Ilija Safradin asked

    19 me to have his private car, an Opal Kadet, returned and

    20 he ordered Atilic Minet, his military policeman, to give

    21 me the keys to the Kadet back. He told me then that he

    22 received oral orders over the phone from Dzemo Merdan

    23 from Zenica -- I think then he was commander of the

    24 district staff in Zenica -- that roadblocks should be

    25 put in the village of Ahmici. He told me that the army

  32. 1 on the front was changing and that he had very few

    2 forces in Ahmici and he asked me to get in touch with

    3 Ivan Santic or someone. Since I was on the friendliest

    4 terms out of all of them with Ivan Santic, I promised

    5 I would do whatever I could.

    6 I called Ivan Santic when I came back and I asked

    7 him -- I told him what Sefkija Djidic was asking for,

    8 and I said that he had asked for another meeting to be

    9 held the next day, or -- I do not know, I cannot

    10 remember. The next day the meeting was held. I went to

    11 that meeting, but as we were entering the premises, we

    12 first went to the office of Mr. Anders Levison and then

    13 to the post office. I came back because, from the

    14 direction of Gradina, what I had just been drawing, a

    15 lot of shooting could be heard and I did not know what

    16 it was all about. I said that I could not be present at

    17 a place where there was shooting. I went back about --

    18 I was about 100 metres away from the post office, so

    19 I did not attend that meeting but I attended the meeting

    20 the next day in the office of Ivan Santic.

    21 Q. At any point in October 1992, were you told why Ahmici

    22 was chosen as the location for this roadblock?

    23 A. Yes, I was told that there was a conflict between the

    24 BH-Army and the HVO in Travnik, and that units from

    25 Busovaca, Kiseljak, Kresevo, were moving on to

  33. 1 Novi Travnik; they were receiving orders to stop them.

    2 Sefkija Djidic told me that.

    3 Q. Did he tell you anything about why Ahmici was chosen as

    4 the location for the roadblock to stop HVO troops going

    5 to Travnik or Novi Travnik?

    6 A. No, Ahmici is just on the main road, the main

    7 communications line and that is somewhere nearby, the

    8 boundary between Vitez and Busovaca municipalities.

    9 I was not told anything else.

    10 Q. Did you attend one meeting at which also Mr. Cerkez and

    11 Mr. Santic appeared concerning this issue of the

    12 roadblock?

    13 A. I said that I attended the first meeting -- not the

    14 first meeting, but I did attend the second meeting where

    15 several conclusions were adopted and one of the

    16 conclusions was to go on local television to have the

    17 situation calmed down and to present the conclusions

    18 from that meeting. I went on local television, together

    19 with Pero Skopljak and the local priest and the local

    20 Haji, the Muslim priest.

    21 Q. Do you know: at the time of this meeting was the

    22 roadblock still in place or had it been cleared?

    23 A. When I scheduled and organised meetings, I think that

    24 Dr. Bruno Buzuk -- he told us, because we heard that

    25 there were wounded, that the army that had set out had

  34. 1 already passed by, and they told us that there were

    2 wounded in Ahmici, and we sent an ambulance three times

    3 that was driven by Dusko Bulajic; we sent it to Ahmici

    4 to bring in the wounded. He brought in a man called

    5 Kajmakovic Nasib, 55 years old in civilian clothes, and

    6 I had gone to have lunch when that happened. I told you

    7 about that already. I found him lying there and an HVO

    8 soldier had hit him, and it is only thanks to Dr. Bruno

    9 and the medical staff that we put him into the ambulance

    10 and we sent him to an orthopaedic surgeon in Zenica

    11 because his shoulder was shattered, I think.

    12 I was called by Munir Kajmovic the head of the SDA

    13 party to appear on local television but otherwise he

    14 appeared on local television to explain to the people in

    15 Vitez the political situation. I was only his deputy,

    16 you know.

    17 Q. So the purpose of you and the other three individuals

    18 going on television was to calm the situation in Vitez?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Were you present at any meeting where Mr. Cerkez and

    21 Mr. Santic came and appealed to representatives of the

    22 Muslim civilian and military authorities to remove the

    23 roadblock from Ahmici so that a greater conflict would

    24 not occur?

    25 A. I have already told you that at that time, I was the

  35. 1 doctor on duty at the general hospital in Travnik, in

    2 the ward for internal medicine, and I did not attend

    3 that meeting, but when I came to work, they told me in

    4 the health centre that on the initiative of Franjo

    5 Tibold, Mario Cerkez and Djidic Sefkija had come to the

    6 health centre in Vitez and that they did not agree on

    7 anything and that war was going to happen. That is what

    8 they told me.

    9 Q. You were not told then, I take it, that at that meeting

    10 there was a request by Cerkez --

    11 A. I was not present at any official meeting.

    12 I apologise. Could you repeat that question?

    13 Q. Yes. You said you were told certain things about this

    14 earlier meeting; is that right?

    15 A. Yes, the medical personnel who were working there in the

    16 health clinic, they told me.

    17 Q. Did they tell you whether or not Mr. Cerkez and/or

    18 Mr. Santic made a request at this earlier meeting that

    19 the roadblock in Ahmici be removed in order to avoid a

    20 greater conflict?

    21 A. These were people working in the health centre, nurses,

    22 doctors, they probably did not know anything about

    23 this. They just told me that Djidic Sefkija and Mario

    24 Cerkez had been to the health centre. That is what they

    25 told me at that time, and then I heard from others that

  36. 1 there had been previous meetings, but I did not attend

    2 that meeting, because I was the doctor on duty in the

    3 Travnik hospital. I was on duty for the weekend and

    4 I was working in the health centre, so I knew nothing

    5 about the meeting, I was very tired, I went home to

    6 sleep. I think that meeting took place in the afternoon

    7 of the 19th, but I did not know about it, otherwise

    8 I would have attended.

    9 Q. Did you ever hear from any source --

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I think perhaps we can have a

    11 break, except if the Prosecutor has an objection.

    12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, that question has been asked and

    13 answered a number of times. The witness has given his

    14 answer to that question.

    15 MR. HAYMAN: He has said he was not there, he was told

    16 certain things by the medical staff but he has also said

    17 he was told something later by other people.

    18 I respectfully suggest to my friend and colleague that

    19 I am navigating this path and I am almost done but I am

    20 trying to navigate through it. I am not asking the same

    21 question over and over.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Listen, the Trial Chamber thanks

    23 you and invites you to a 20-minute break until 11.40.

    24 (11.20 am)

    25 (A short break)

  37. 1 (11.40 am)

    2 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed, please have the

    3 accused brought in.

    4 (Accused brought in)

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, how much time have you planned for

    6 your cross-examination, approximately of course?

    7 MR. HAYMAN: I will certainly finish by 1.00, your Honour,

    8 and if we can keep the exchanges shorter rather than

    9 longer I hope to be done in 40 or 45 minutes.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Continue, please.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: Doctor, let me ask you: in October 1992, did you

    12 see any wounded HVO as a result of the conflict in

    13 Novi Travnik?

    14 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I am not getting an English

    15 translation.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Will you resume, please? Repeat what you

    17 said, doctor, please.

    18 A. I have already said that when I was leaving the hospital

    19 compound in Travnik I was told that the wounded were

    20 being admitted to surgery. I did not look to see

    21 whether they were members of the BH-Army or HVO

    22 soldiers. I really did not look because I had to go

    23 back to Vitez.

    24 MR. HAYMAN: So you did not see any wounded on that occasion?

    25 A. I saw them being brought in in ambulances to the

  38. 1 surgery. People were being carried out to the surgical

    2 centre, the wounded. I did not pay any attention to see

    3 who they were. I had to go back to Vitez, because I did

    4 not work in the surgical department but at the internal

    5 medicine department.

    6 Q. Were these individuals coming out of ambulances or other

    7 vehicles dressed in uniforms?

    8 A. When I left the hospital in my car, I asked what was

    9 happening: the wounded were being brought in to the

    10 hospital. I told you that I did not pay attention at

    11 all, because it was not my responsibility as a doctor.

    12 It was just the medical staff who told me that these

    13 were the wounded from Novi Travnik and there were

    14 several ambulances in front of the hospital.

    15 Q. Doctor, you said you saw them coming in to the

    16 hospital. Do you recall whether or not they were in

    17 uniform?

    18 A. They were being brought in, driven in, I said. I told

    19 you that I saw the ambulances driving in the wounded

    20 from Novi Travnik. I did not describe who I saw, I just

    21 asked what was happening, and the medical staff told me

    22 that they were the wounded from Novi Travnik, and that

    23 there had been a conflict in Novi Travnik. In my

    24 statement, I did not say whether they were civilians or

    25 soldiers, whether they belonged to the HVO or the

  39. 1 BH-Army. I did not say that; I just learned because of

    2 these many ambulances and private vehicles arriving. It

    3 was difficult for me to drive out, there was such a

    4 crowd. That is how I learnt what had happened.

    5 Q. I take it you saw no wounded on that occasion; is that

    6 right?

    7 A. I saw the ambulances; that is what I said, and people in

    8 the ambulances. I did not pay attention, I just asked

    9 what it was.

    10 Q. During the April 1993 conflict, did you see wounded

    11 soldiers while performing work at a medical facility?

    12 A. In what month?

    13 Q. April 1993 in Vitez.

    14 A. Did I see wounded soldiers? Yes, wounded soldiers, HVO

    15 soldiers did come, wounded soldiers of the BH-Army did

    16 not come. There were civilians, Bosniaks there were

    17 wounded who did come. No soldier of the BH-Army, at

    18 least not anyone wearing a uniform, came to see me.

    19 There were people who were wounded who, by their age and

    20 medical condition could have been soldiers, but they

    21 were not wearing uniform.

    22 Q. On what day or days did you see wounded HVO soldiers in

    23 April 1993?

    24 A. On 19th April, I told you that a military policeman of

    25 the HVO, Dragan Calic, brought me from my apartment to

  40. 1 work in the medical centre, the one that had been

    2 adjusted to wartime conditions. I worked very hard that

    3 day. I admitted a large number of HVO soldiers with

    4 various kinds of injuries, from light ones to very grave

    5 ones.

    6 In the course of my working hours, one dead

    7 soldier was brought in from the area of Gacice, the

    8 village of Gacice, near Vitez. I knew him personally;

    9 he was a goalkeeper in a village football club in the

    10 village of Jardol, so we were admitted. The wounded,

    11 there were many; I do not know how many. There is a

    12 record, a medical record there, and this can be checked,

    13 both the diagnoses and where people were transferred to

    14 and these records were left in Vitez.

    15 Q. Can you estimate the number of wounded soldiers you saw

    16 at the medical facility on April 19th 1993 in Vitez?

    17 A. I do not know what to say, but there were many.

    18 I worked all day, I did not even put down everything in

    19 the book, I was just saying what people should be given

    20 as medication, whether they should be sent to Travnik,

    21 Zenica or Split, because I was very familiar with the

    22 capacities of all the various hospitals in our part of

    23 Bosnia; for instance a man with a head injury could not

    24 be sent to Travnik because we did not have the

    25 appropriate surgeons. I would have to have them

  41. 1 transferred to Zenica or Split. There were many;

    2 I worked all day, not just me but all of us were

    3 working.

    4 Q. Can you estimate? Were there more than 100?

    5 A. I think there were.

    6 Q. Were there more than 200?

    7 A. I do not know. So as not to make up any figures, please

    8 check with the medical protocol or records; each one is

    9 registered there. I could say 1,000, 5,000, I really do

    10 not know, but there are medical records and every single

    11 injury has been entered, and even if a death occurred it

    12 has been entered. All I know is that I worked very

    13 hard, that I was very tired and so were all the staff

    14 members.

    15 Q. Can you estimate what percentage of the wounded HVO

    16 soldiers you saw on April 19th 1993 were from the

    17 Vitezovi unit?

    18 A. I cannot; I did not pay attention. In the medical

    19 profession our main concern is the actual condition of

    20 the patient, to provide life-saving treatment, to stop

    21 haemorrhaging, to apply a catheter, a tube to provide

    22 general medical treatment and aid, so that I paid very

    23 little attention to other things. I may see that a man

    24 was in an uniform or in civilian clothes, but I really

    25 could not tell what kind of uniform they were wearing

  42. 1 and I think this applies to all the staff because that

    2 was not important to us. What was important to us was

    3 to save the person's life, so I did not pay any

    4 attention to that, nor did the others. There was a

    5 great deal to do; we did not have time for that.

    6 Q. Is it your testimony you are unable to say whether you

    7 treated any soldiers from the Vitezovi unit on April

    8 19th 1993; is that your testimony?

    9 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, your Honour, the question has been

    10 asked and answered. He said he did not pay attention;

    11 his main effort was to treat and save the lives of the

    12 people who came into the hospital.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Please change your question, Mr. Hayman.

    14 MR. HAYMAN: I asked the usher to provide the witness with a

    15 prior statement that he gave in regard to this matter,

    16 and I have copies attached, your Honour, for the court,

    17 the Prosecutor's office and the Registrar. (Handed).

    18 Doctor, this statement is in English. Let me ask you

    19 initially to turn to the last page --

    20 MR. HARMON: Counsel, can you wait until we get a copy of it

    21 before you start questioning? (Handed). Thank you.

    22 MR. HAYMAN: Doctor, could you turn to the last page of the

    23 statement? Do you see the last page? Have you found

    24 the last page of the statement, doctor? I am not asking

    25 you to read it; I am asking you if you have found the

  43. 1 last page.

    2 A. Yes, I have found the last page, but it is of the

    3 English version.

    4 Q. That is correct. Do you recognise your signature on

    5 this page?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Was this statement read to you in your own language?

    8 A. This statement, when I signed it, there was a version in

    9 the Bosnian language, and I said that the translation

    10 was very poor.

    11 Q. Was there a written version in the Bosnian language that

    12 you were shown?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, for the record, we have not been

    15 provided with that copy of the witness's statement and

    16 I would lodge that formal request with the Office of the

    17 Prosecutor and with the court.

    18 Doctor, was this statement read to you or did you

    19 read a written Bosnian version of this statement before

    20 you signed --

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, what are you asking from the

    22 Registry and the Tribunal? What exactly are you

    23 asking?

    24 Mr. Registrar, will you please take note of the

    25 request. It is a statement that was translated into

  44. 1 English on the basis of a statement made by

    2 Mr. Mujezinovic on 3rd February 1997. What is it that

    3 you do not have?

    4 MR. HAYMAN: I am making a formal record, your Honour, that

    5 we have been told in the past that no written Bosnian

    6 statements were prepared, that all statements were

    7 prepared in English and were translated for the

    8 witness. This witness has stated that he saw and read a

    9 written statement containing apparently, substantially

    10 at least, the content of this statement in the Bosnian

    11 language. That is the statement we have never been

    12 provided with if in fact it existed and rather than

    13 write a letter to the Prosecutor's Office, I wish to put

    14 in the record we have not been provided with that

    15 statement. If it exists, I believe it is due to us

    16 under the Rules. I do not wish to hold up the hearing;

    17 I am not asking to resolve that issue now. I am just

    18 making a note of it and I wish to proceed.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?

    20 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, for the record I do not know of

    21 the existence of a Bosnian statement, a translation of

    22 this particular statement. I will make an enquiry over

    23 the next recess and if one is available I will provide

    24 it to counsel.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Before having an enquiry, perhaps we can ask

  45. 1 Mr. Kehoe, because he took this statement, if

    2 I understood well, to speed up the proceedings.

    3 Mr. Kehoe?

    4 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I did not get a translation in

    5 English of what you said.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: I was saying that before we make any

    7 enquiries, Mr. Kehoe took this statement. Perhaps he can

    8 give us some clarification which would speed up the

    9 debate. Mr. Kehoe? Except, if you prefer, Mr. Kehoe to

    10 make the enquiry later? I do not want to substitute the

    11 enquiry work of the Prosecutor. Mr. Kehoe, do you

    12 remember when the statement was taken, I assume it was

    13 taken in Serbo-Croatian or in Bosnian to start with.

    14 MR. KEHOE: That is correct, Mr. President. The statement was

    15 taken and I was present during the questioning by

    16 Mr. Bajawa who is an investigator here. To my knowledge,

    17 there was never any Bosnian statement or translation of

    18 this particular document. There was a prior statement

    19 that was taken, I am not sure if it is referred to

    20 here. The prefatory language says:

    21 "I, Muhamed Mujezinovic, understand this is by

    22 way of addendum to my earlier statement and with the

    23 intention to clarify certain points arising from my

    24 earlier statement."

    25 That is the prefatory language. With regard to

  46. 1 any translation of the earlier statement, Mr. President,

    2 I simply do not know. I was present during this; this

    3 was typed, and signed by Mr. Mujezinovic. I was not

    4 present with regard to the earlier statement. I do not

    5 know whether or not there was any translation to that,

    6 and that is the enquiry that Mr. Harmon said will be

    7 conducted.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: May I proceed, your Honour?

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, just a moment, please.

    10 Mr. Mujezinovic, you certainly recognise this

    11 statement because you signed it.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: So there was an interpreter who retranslated

    14 it back into your language before you signed it? Surely

    15 you did not sign the English version which is not your

    16 mother-tongue. Are we agreed?

    17 A. Your Honour, I signed a previous statement in the

    18 Bosnian language. I signed it because I did not have

    19 time and I said that it was a very poor version. This

    20 statement was translated to me orally, this other one

    21 that I signed, this one. This one was not in Bosnian,

    22 but the previous statement that I made and to which

    23 I objected regarding the translation --

    24 JUDGE JORDA: I understand, doctor. I am not talking about

    25 the previous statement, I am talking about this

  47. 1 statement. It has been signed by you and you recognise

    2 the signature. It is in English. When you signed it,

    3 was there someone to read it to you in your own

    4 language?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: And it was then that you said that the

    7 translation was poor. I think we close the incident for

    8 the moment. We give the floor again to Mr. Hayman and

    9 you will have an opportunity to clarify your thoughts

    10 through the cross-examination by Mr. Hayman. I consider

    11 the incident closed. Continue, please.

    12 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour.

    13 If the usher could assist the witness in placing

    14 the page marked 3 in the upper right-hand corner of this

    15 document and assist in focusing the ELMO on the next to

    16 last paragraph of that page, the page that begins,

    17 "During the April conflict ..."

    18 Doctor, I am going to read two or three sentences

    19 from this paragraph, and then the translators can

    20 translate those sentences into the various languages of

    21 the Tribunal, and then I am going to ask you about those

    22 sentences. Page 3 is the page that we need, not page 4,

    23 please. In the upper right-hand corner there are

    24 page numbers. The paragraph that I wish on the ELMO in

    25 some enlarged fashion is the next to last

  48. 1 paragraph beginning, "During the April conflict ..."

    2 The page will need to be moved up on the ELMO,

    3 your Honour, for that paragraph to come into view.

    4 Further up, please. If now the image could be enlarged,

    5 please? Thank you.

    6 I will read two or three sentences from this

    7 paragraph, doctor:

    8 "During the April conflict, the Jokeri soldier,

    9 Vitezovi soldiers and other HVO soldiers that were

    10 wounded during the conflict were brought to the

    11 hospital."

    12 Skipping two sentences:

    13 "I would hear Croat staff of the hospital saying

    14 that here were Anto Furundzija soldiers, the Jokeri, or

    15 here are the Vitezovi soldiers. Most of the Vitezovi

    16 and Jokeri soldiers would have their faces painted.

    17 They would be wearing camouflage or black uniforms and

    18 would have knives hanging from their belts or tucked in

    19 their boots, along with pistols and other weapons."

    20 End of paragraph.

    21 A. Yes, I said that, but you asked me specifically about

    22 the wounded and not about who in all came to the War

    23 Hospital, who generally came to the War Hospital.

    24 Q. So the portions I read, those are your statements and

    25 that is your testimony?

  49. 1 A. Yes, it is my statement. I did say that, but in your

    2 previous question, you asked me specifically which were

    3 the wounded that we admitted, and I answered that in the

    4 case of the wounded, we did not pay attention, and in

    5 this statement, I said what is written here, and Anto

    6 Furundzija was one of the commanders, I think of the

    7 Jokeri and he came to me and he told me to go out and he

    8 asked me to give him my car keys. I told him that the

    9 car had been stolen from me and that he could check with

    10 the military and civilian police of the HVO that I had

    11 reported it. He told me, "Doctor, I know where your

    12 garage is. If I find your car in your garage, I will

    13 come back here and kill you." They would come. We had

    14 a department with beds for people to spend some time in.

    15 Q. Doctor, I do not think there is any question pending.

    16 If you wish to further elaborate during redirect

    17 examination I have no opposition to that, but I do not

    18 think there is any question pending and I would like to

    19 continue.

    20 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I object and I would like the

    21 witness to be permitted to finish his answer.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Let us please have the translation of

    23 Mr. Hayman's comment first. You have no further

    24 questions on this point?

    25 MR. HAYMAN: No, I have no question pending of the witness

  50. 1 and he is giving a narrative which I respect his right

    2 to do but not during my examination when I have not

    3 posed a question.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to know, Mr. Prosecutor, what your

    5 objection is. It was not translated to me.

    6 MR. HARMON: My objection is, your Honour, the witness had

    7 not completed his answer. He was talking about "they

    8 were coming" and Mr. Hayman cut him off. My request is

    9 that Dr. Mujezinovic be permitted to complete his

    10 answer.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Doctor, please complete your answer as you

    12 wish.

    13 A. Your Honours, the Defence counsel asked me which wounded

    14 I had admitted to hospital. I answered that we did not

    15 pay attention to the uniforms. We simply looked at the

    16 wounds in order to save people's lives, and in my

    17 statement I said that people came to visit the wounded

    18 patients and the medical staff. The nurses would say,

    19 "These are Furundzija's soldiers; these are

    20 Kraljevic's", but not as visitors; they came under

    21 arms. I think I have made myself clear. If necessary

    22 please ask any additional questions.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: If you please, Mr. Hayman.

    24 MR. HAYMAN: Let me reread the first paragraph of this

    25 sentence to you, doctor.

  51. 1 JUDGE JORDA: You have not finished with regard to this

    2 statement?

    3 MR. HAYMAN: No, your Honour, and there will be other

    4 statements I suspect in this document that will be

    5 referred to before I am completed. To reread the first

    6 sentence of this paragraph, I would like you to listen

    7 carefully to it and tell us whether this is or is not

    8 your testimony. I quote:

    9 "During the April conflict, the Jokeri soldiers,

    10 Vitezovi soldiers and other HVO soldiers that were

    11 wounded during the conflict were brought to the

    12 hospital."

    13 Is that your testimony or not?

    14 A. I said that all the wounded of the HVO had been brought

    15 in. I said there were no BH-Army soldiers, but among

    16 the HVO there were the Jokeri, the Vitezovi and, to be

    17 quite frank, for me they were all HVO, they just had

    18 different names.

    19 Q. So I take it the sentence that I read is your testimony,

    20 that it is accurate?

    21 A. I told you that all the wounded soldiers were brought in

    22 from the HVO, and for me all these formations belonged

    23 to the HVO, the Jokeri and the Vitezovi.

    24 Q. Is the statement I read accurate?

    25 A. Yes.

  52. 1 Q. Thank you. In Vitez in early 1993, were there armed

    2 gangs terrorising the entire population of Vitez at

    3 night?

    4 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, your Honour, I would object. The

    5 question has been asked and answered before. Mr. Nobilo

    6 posed that question to the witness. If we are going to

    7 revisit the same areas that Mr. Nobilo has questioned, we

    8 are going to prolong these proceedings.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: The length of the debate does not depend

    10 exclusively on the will of the President and the

    11 judges. For the moment, I do not think that one can say

    12 that this question was put in the exact same words by

    13 Mr. Hayman. I am not sure; I do remember that questions

    14 regarding armed bands were put to the witness, so please

    15 let Mr. Hayman put his questions to the witness, and

    16 please continue, Mr. Hayman, therefore.

    17 MR. HAYMAN: Doctor, would you agree with the statement that

    18 in early 1993, armed gangs were harrassing the people of

    19 Vitez and robbing them during the late night hours?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Did Marijan Skopljak form his own private unit of

    22 soldiers at any relevant time?

    23 A. I do not know whether it was private, but it was said

    24 that Marijan Skopljak was the head of that group of some

    25 30 people, but I think it was not a private group.

  53. 1 Marijan Skopljak was the Minister of Defence in the

    2 second half of 1992, so whether it was private ...

    3 I think nothing in Vitez was private, with the exception

    4 of a few establishments.

    5 Q. Did Marijan Skopljak take his own initiative to form a

    6 specific unit of soldiers?

    7 A. I do not know that.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: If the usher could assist, your Honour? While

    9 we are distributing another document, what was this unit

    10 called?

    11 A. Marijan Skopljak's unit? They said in Vitez, among the

    12 people, this was the story, that Marijan Skopljak had a

    13 group of men, popularly known as the SS troops. I did

    14 not see any official paper saying that there was such a

    15 unit, nor did I see any other paper of that kind, but

    16 the people called this unit the SS unit.

    17 Q. Did they refer to it as Marijan Skopljak's unit?

    18 A. I am saying again, that was the story going around among

    19 the people, that their leader was Marijan Skopljak.

    20 Q. If you would look at this document that has just been

    21 provided to you -- it is also in English -- could you

    22 look at the last page please and see if you recognise

    23 your signature.

    24 A. Yes, this is my signature.

    25 Q. Is this a statement that you gave to the staff of the

  54. 1 Office of the Prosecutor?

    2 A. This statement I made to the investigating officer of

    3 The Hague Tribunal. This is my signature.

    4 Q. Let me ask the usher to assist and place the first

    5 page of the statement on the ELMO, focused on the

    6 portion of the bottom of the first page, about ten lines

    7 up from the bottom, that should be highlighted in

    8 yellow, and I would like to read a phrase to you and ask

    9 you if that is your testimony.

    10 That is fine, thank you from the technical box.

    11 The portion of this paragraph I would like to read

    12 reads as follows:

    13 "Skopljak Marijan formed a 30-man unit popularly

    14 called the 'SS' as in the Second World War and after

    15 this another unit was formed by Furundzija Anto called

    16 the Jokeri."

    17 Do you agree with that statement?

    18 A. Yes, Anto Furundzija was in the TO until September and

    19 this unit was formed after September 1992, and the unit

    20 of Marijan Skopljak that was popularly known under this

    21 name started operating much earlier.

    22 Q. Did Darko Kraljevic also command his own unit of

    23 soldiers?

    24 A. I stated that Darko Kraljevic -- in Bosnia there were

    25 party armies so the Croatian Party of Rights had its

  55. 1 military unit in Vitez under the command of Darko

    2 Kraljevic, the so-called HOS. I have also previously

    3 said that this unit was disbanded some time in June or

    4 July and that it placed itself under the command of the

    5 HVO because Darko Kraljevic himself told me that while

    6 I was treating him. For a time he was dismissed and he

    7 had a psychological crisis and then the unit was changed

    8 -- changed its name to Vitezovi from HOS.

    9 Q. Is that June or July of 1993, doctor?

    10 A. I think it was some time in June, I am not quite sure --

    11 June.

    12 Q. Of 1993, doctor?

    13 A. 1992, I am sorry, 1992. He himself, Darko Kraljevic,

    14 told me, as I have already said, that he had this

    15 crisis, that I went to treat him, that he was not

    16 involved for about a month and then afterwards, the unit

    17 was no longer called HOS but it was called Vitezovi.

    18 Some of them retained the HOS patch but officially they

    19 were known as Vitezovi.

    20 Q. Marijan Skopljak, was he from the local area in Vitez?

    21 Had he grown up there or lived there for a significant

    22 period of time?

    23 A. Marijan Skopljak was born in Vitez. He worked in the

    24 SPS factory, the Slobodan Princip Selo factory. We went

    25 together to elementary school; we know each other very

  56. 1 well, I know his whole family; his uncle is Pero

    2 Skopljak.

    3 Q. Anto Furundzija, was he from the local area as well?

    4 A. I met Anto Furundzija as a member of the military police

    5 in the TO. I was told that he was a former soldier.

    6 I never knew him before.

    7 Q. And Darko Kraljevic; was the Kraljevic family resident

    8 in the Vitez municipality?

    9 A. The Kraljevics originally come from Herzegovina. It is

    10 called Siroko Brijeg now; before it was called Listica,

    11 but for many years three brothers lived in Vitez. The

    12 oldest one is Stanko Kraljevic and Darko is his son.

    13 I knew them very well. I also knew the Granic family,

    14 where his, Stanko's, wife came from. I know them well.

    15 Darko Kraljevic was born in Vitez.

    16 Q. Tihomir Blaskic did not grow up in the Vitez

    17 municipality to your knowledge; is that correct?

    18 A. As I have already told you, I did not meet

    19 Mr. Tihomir Blaskic formally. We do not have such

    20 surnames in Vitez. I just saw him on various occasions.

    21 Q. During the period of the war you saw him; is that right?

    22 A. Personally I never met him, I only saw him.

    23 Q. You described this conversation a moment ago with Darko

    24 Kraljevic in which he said that HOS had been disbanded.

    25 Do you have that subject matter in mind?

  57. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. What is the best date that you can put on that

    3 conversation, your most accurate date of that

    4 conversation?

    5 A. I think it was in the first half of June, I think it was

    6 then. I cannot be quite sure about that.

    7 Q. Of 1992; that is your testimony?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. In connection with the longer of the two statements that

    10 are before you, the one marked Defence exhibit 31 which

    11 is approximately 10 single-spaced pages, how long did

    12 that interview last?

    13 A. Which one? I cannot remember -- I mean the first

    14 statement I made to The Hague investigators -- I really

    15 do not remember; it was very difficult. The interpreter

    16 during this first time was very poor; perhaps it went on

    17 for a couple of hours or even longer. I do not know,

    18 I really do not know.

    19 Q. Was it more than one day?

    20 A. About five or six hours; the interpreter was very poor.

    21 Q. Then on another day, were you read the written statement

    22 which is exhibit D31 and asked whether it was true and

    23 accurate?

    24 A. Yes, I was dissatisfied with the translation.

    25 Q. But you signed it; correct?

  58. 1 A. I cannot remember if I signed it. Perhaps I did. I do

    2 not remember.

    3 Q. If you look at the last page of exhibit D31, can you

    4 tell us whether you recognise your signature above the

    5 date "Sunday, 16th July 1995", in the lower right-hand

    6 corner of the page marked 10 which is the last page of

    7 D31. That is the longer of the two statements, doctor.

    8 It may be on the ELMO, which is the overhead projector

    9 to your right. If you turn to the last page of that

    10 statement, the longer of the two statements. Did you

    11 indeed sign this statement, doctor?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. In this statement, did you tell the investigators from

    14 the Tribunal of this conversation you have testified

    15 about today and yesterday in which Darko Kraljevic

    16 stated that his unit was disbanded?

    17 A. I do not remember; I think I did not. I think I did

    18 not. I cannot remember; perhaps I did say that.

    19 Q. Did the investigators ask you to relate your knowledge

    20 of the organisation and structure of the HVO and all

    21 units related to the HVO?

    22 A. I was asked about the military formations that were

    23 operating in Vitez. I said that in the second half of

    24 1992, the HVO operated only, that the units which had

    25 existed and had special names had simply chosen these

  59. 1 names for themselves, but they were all under HVO

    2 command.

    3 Q. So you told the investigators in your July 1995

    4 interview that the HOS unit had been brought under HVO

    5 command by the second half of 1992; is that your

    6 testimony?

    7 A. No, I do not know then, I have not got this here. I was

    8 asked as far as I can remember what were the units that

    9 were operated. I do not think they asked me when the

    10 HOS stopped operating. I know that I was asked what the

    11 HOS was like before: did they harass the Muslims before

    12 they became Vitezovi? I remember I was asked that.

    13 I said the local Muslims in Vitez were not harassed

    14 before by the Vitezovi in the first half of 1992. That

    15 is what they asked me and that is what I stated.

    16 Q. Were you asked what the relationship of HOS was to the

    17 HVO? Do you recall whether the investigators in either

    18 interview asked you that question?

    19 A. I think that I have answered that question. I think

    20 I have answered that question. I do not know what you

    21 wish.

    22 Q. I am asking you to try and recall: in those interviews,

    23 in either interview, did the investigators ask --

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?

    25 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the witness has attempted to answer

  60. 1 it. He has tried a number of times. I do not think

    2 there is any reason to continue asking the same question

    3 to this witness. The interview Mr. Hayman is referring

    4 to is dated 1995; it occurred over two years ago. The

    5 witness has said he does not remember.

    6 MR. HAYMAN: It is, your Honour, and there is no mention of

    7 this conversation in either written statement. I think

    8 it is important we determine how that came about.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Listen, I think we have to introduce some

    10 reason into this debate. I will let you continue

    11 gladly, but I think we are turning round in a circle a

    12 little. This statement was made many months ago. The

    13 judges and I will decide whether we will admit it as

    14 evidence. I simply wish to draw your attention,

    15 Mr. Hayman, to the following: I do not think that you can

    16 instruct the Prosecutor. They did his work as best they

    17 could; you are free to ask all the questions you wish.

    18 You will be given the answers. You can use the

    19 contradictions, if any, in the statements, but I think

    20 that we must go ahead, so I ask you now to conclude on

    21 this point and to proceed to your next question.

    22 If not, I think the Tribunal, and I say this very

    23 seriously, will have to envisage limiting the time for

    24 interventions. We will ask that of the Prosecutor as

    25 well as of the Defence in that case, but do not forget

  61. 1 the essential. Your strategy is yours, that of the

    2 Prosecution is theirs, but let us try and go forward.

    3 If you find that the witness is contradicting himself or

    4 not, it is up to you to use that, but please if you can

    5 speed up the proceedings and continue.

    6 MR. HAYMAN: I am trying, your Honour. I am trying very very

    7 hard to speed the proceedings up, I think the record

    8 will reflect how short my enquiries are and what kinds

    9 of answers they call for.

    10 Doctor, this conversation you have related with

    11 Darko Kraljevic concerning the disbanding of HOS, have

    12 you told it to any Tribunal investigator, talked about

    13 it or discussed it with any Tribunal investigator, prior

    14 to giving your testimony here in court?

    15 A. I mentioned to the Tribunal investigators that I had

    16 treated Darko Kraljevic medically. What else I told

    17 them ... I also think -- no, I do not think. I told

    18 them what Darko Kraljevic had told me and I said in my

    19 statement that for ten days, Darko Kraljevic kept coming

    20 in front of my apartment building -- his soldiers would

    21 come and pick me up at my apartment, they would bring me

    22 down to the car and then we would go to the health

    23 centre where he would receive his injection and then he

    24 would keep me in his car for two or three hours in order

    25 to talk to me.

  62. 1 He talked to me about all sorts of things, I said

    2 that. Darko Kraljevic, among other things, said that

    3 the HVO, especially Skopljak Pero and Anto Valenta are

    4 talking him into destroying Muslim establishments. That

    5 is what I had said, and I do not know, I really do not

    6 see what you want. I do not know. I am absolutely

    7 clear. I told the investigators of The Hague Tribunal

    8 about this. They asked me who Darko Kraljevic was,

    9 I said he was from Vitez, his father was from

    10 Herzegovina, that it was a big family, three brothers

    11 lived in Vitez, that it was a young man whom I have

    12 known from his early childhood, that I knew his father,

    13 his father was head of the football club in Vitez and

    14 I was his deputy, I know his mother, his grandfather.

    15 I do not know what you want from me, I really do not

    16 know.

    17 Q. The question, doctor, was: did you tell the

    18 investigators about this particular conversation? If

    19 you would answer that question I will leave this area

    20 and move on. The conversation in which you state

    21 Kraljevic had told you HOS had been disbanded?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. You did, thank you.

    24 A. No, Darko Kraljevic had told me that he had been

    25 replaced. Darko Kraljevic told me that he had been

  63. 1 replaced, not that HOS had been disbanded. I do not

    2 know if I said that to the investigators. He told me

    3 that he had been replaced, and that he had handed over

    4 his duties to another person, I do not know who this

    5 other person was.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, the President is going to intervene

    7 now.

    8 Doctor, Mr. Hayman has asked you a precise

    9 question. You will say yes or no. Did you speak about

    10 this to the investigators? Please answer with yes or no

    11 and we will go on to the next question. We cannot keep

    12 on going round in circles. I ask this in the interests

    13 of the proceedings.

    14 Please, Mr. Hayman, repeat the question for the

    15 last time.

    16 You can say, "I do not know"; "I do not wish to

    17 answer"; "yes it is true"; "no, it is not". The Trial

    18 Chamber is listening to your answer.

    19 Please put this question for the last time, very

    20 clearly and very briefly.

    21 MR. HAYMAN: Did you tell the Tribunal investigators in

    22 either of your two interviews about the conversation you

    23 had with Kraljevic in which he said that HOS had been

    24 brought under the command of the HVO?

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Doctor, please give us a clear answer to this

  64. 1 question.

    2 A. I do not remember.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, doctor, thank you Mr. Hayman. Let

    4 us go on to the next question, please.

    5 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

    6 You were asked the following question by Mr. Harmon

    7 yesterday, in reference to point 3 of exhibit 86.

    8 Exhibit 86 was the signed statement that you signed

    9 under duress, you state, concerning the conflict in

    10 April:

    11 "Question: In your opinion, did the military

    12 commanders of the HVO act in accordance with

    13 international humanitarian standards as soon as

    14 possible?"

    15 Do you recall the question?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. You answered: no. Do you recall your answer?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. In giving the answer, can you tell us what HVO commander

    20 or commanders do you intend to opine did not act in

    21 accordance with international humanitarian standards

    22 after exhibit 86 was signed?

    23 A. I do not know who issued orders. I really do not know

    24 who issued orders and I cannot tell you which

    25 commander. I told you what I had experienced, and which

  65. 1 commander issued orders in writing, that I do not know.

    2 Q. Is it your opinion, or do you have an opinion whether

    3 Tihomir Blaskic acted in accordance with international

    4 humanitarian standards as soon as possible as called for

    5 in exhibit 86?

    6 A. In my opinion, as a doctor, according to the Geneva

    7 international conventions, the ill, children, women,

    8 should not be mistreated and that is what happened, and

    9 pregnant women too. That happened in Vitez and that

    10 should not have happened. Who signed the orders

    11 I really do not know.

    12 Q. My question was: is it your opinion that Tihomir Blaskic

    13 failed to act in accordance with international

    14 humanitarian standards as soon as possible within the

    15 meaning --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, you have already put that question

    17 and you have received an answer. Please go on. You

    18 have just asked that question. You wanted to ask the

    19 witness regarding point 3, who were the military

    20 commanders. Then you went on to say whether

    21 Tihomir Blaskic was a member of those commanders. The

    22 witness told you that the Geneva Convention envisages

    23 that there should be no wounded or killed among old

    24 people, women, children et cetera, so proceed, please.

    25 MR. HAYMAN: What he said, your Honour, was:

  66. 1 "Who signed the orders I really do not know."

    2 That is different from my question. My question

    3 is whether he has an opinion whether the accused did or

    4 did not act in accordance with this statement.

    5 I respectfully think we should get an answer.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: He told you that he did not know the role of

    7 General Blaskic. He told you that, in his opinion,

    8 women, children et cetera according to the Geneva

    9 Conventions should not be wounded, because in his life

    10 he saw that there were wounded. I am sorry for

    11 intervening in this way, but I want to make progress.

    12 You got your answer; it may not satisfy you but you must

    13 go on to the next question, please.

    14 MR. HAYMAN: I will move on, your Honour, but I wish to state

    15 my position. He did not answer the question. He gave a

    16 non-responsive answer.

    17 I have three documents I would like placed before

    18 the witness.

    19 Doctor, you are being shown three documents marked

    20 Defence exhibits 32, 33 and 34. The first, 32, is in

    21 the English language. I will simply describe it and

    22 this will help you in reviewing it as an order signed by

    23 Tihomir Blaskic dated April 18th 1993; the second

    24 document is a document in the BSC language, and the

    25 third document is an English translation of the second

  67. 1 document, that is Defence exhibit 33, which reflects

    2 that it is a joint order of Commander Hadzihasanovic as

    3 well as Tihomir Blaskic made on April 22nd 1993.

    4 I would like to call your attention to a provision in

    5 each of the orders and then I will ask you a question

    6 about them as a whole.

    7 The first document, exhibit D32, states in point 2

    8 that it is commanded to exchange the detained soldiers

    9 and the civilians at once. The exhibit which is exhibit

    10 34 provides at the bottom of that order that the

    11 appointed members of the Commission are authorised to

    12 make all the necessary orders, instructions and tasks in

    13 accordance with the agreement signed, referencing the

    14 agreement to establish a joint operational centre at the

    15 level of the BiH Army Third Corps and of the HVO

    16 operative zone, Central Bosnia.

    17 My question for you is: prior to your testimony in

    18 this case, were you shown any of these documents?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Could you answer in the microphone? I do not think the

    21 interpretation booth picked it up.

    22 A. I did not see this paper before. In April, as President

    23 of the War Presidency, I received a paper from

    24 international organisations, the UNHCR and UNPROFOR,

    25 stating that at the level of the operative zone of

  68. 1 Central Bosnia and the Third Corps and it was signed by

    2 Lieutenant-colonel or Colonel Tihomir Blaskic and

    3 Hadzihasanovic, and on the basis of these orders we

    4 proposed to set up three working groups. It is said in

    5 this information that a third group was established too,

    6 that would be working in the hotel Tisa in Busovaca

    7 under the control of European monitors, a joint group at

    8 the level of the Third Corps, and the operative zones of

    9 Central Bosnia. This paper though I did not see it;

    10 I cannot even read it properly.

    11 Q. Were you told before your testimony by representatives

    12 of the Prosecution's Office that they were going to ask

    13 you in your testimony your opinion whether HVO

    14 commanders violated point 3 of exhibit 86? Were you

    15 told that in advance of your testimony?

    16 A. Sir, I came here to testify as a doctor and as a

    17 person. My wife and my family were against my

    18 testifying, but I came here, and I am not involved in

    19 politics. I was not involved in politics before and

    20 I am not involved in politics now. I made a statement

    21 to the investigators of the Hague Tribunal and they

    22 invited me -- they asked me whether I would come to tell

    23 my story and I did that. I do not know what I could say

    24 to you in response to this. I have told you quite

    25 simply several times what I did and how I did it.

  69. 1 I said that I was informed about the existence of these

    2 commissions, that there was a joint commission.

    3 I remembered that in this joint commission, Franjo Nakic

    4 from Vitez were there too and these others, I do not

    5 know these people.

    6 Q. I understand that, doctor, and let me be the first to

    7 thank you for coming here to provide your testimony to

    8 the Tribunal. We are grateful for persons like yourself

    9 willing to come and testimony, but my question is a

    10 simple one.

    11 Before your testimony, did you receive some form

    12 of notice, whether through a practice examination or

    13 otherwise, that the Prosecutor, Mr. Harmon, was going to

    14 ask you to opine whether or not HVO commanders violated

    15 point 3 of exhibit 86?

    16 A. No. Mr. Harmon, Mark Harmon, asked me to tell my story

    17 and he told me to tell you the truth and that the truth

    18 is the strongest weapon of all and I told you the

    19 truth. During these past few days, that is the only

    20 thing that Mr. Mark Harmon asked me to do.

    21 Q. Is it your testimony you have never had a discussion

    22 with Mr. Harmon about what questions he would ask and

    23 what your answers would be?

    24 MR. HARMON: Objection, your Honour.

    25 MR. HAYMAN: On what ground, your Honour?

  70. 1 MR. HARMON: My objection is: clearly this is an irrelevant

    2 area of cross-examination. I have clearly met with this

    3 witness and I intend to meet with every other witness.

    4 If counsel are suggesting that I have told this witness

    5 what to say, I think he should make that complaint in

    6 front of your Honours, but I think to air that publicly

    7 is inappropriate.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: I am not making that complaint, your Honour, but

    9 the witness has said he did not have a practice exam

    10 with Mr. Harmon, and Mr. Harmon has said "Of course he

    11 did, all witnesses do and they will", and I accept that

    12 representation. What I am trying to get at is: did the

    13 Prosecutor's Office know and intend to ask this question

    14 and purposefully not show the witness orders of my

    15 client going to this very issue, which were in their

    16 possession. We got these orders, exhibits D32, 33 and

    17 34, from the Prosecutor's Office.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment, please, I wish to consult with

    19 my colleagues. (Pause).

    20 Mr. Hayman, Mr. Prosecutor, the Trial Chamber has

    21 considered this question, that is the investigations

    22 done in this case by the Defence as to what may happen

    23 between the Prosecutor and the witness. The Tribunal is

    24 of the opinion that it should not involve itself with

    25 this question. It is the relationship between the

  71. 1 Office of the Prosecutor and its witness.

    2 As for you, Mr. Hayman, if during your questioning

    3 you note that regarding this or that point, the witness

    4 was not familiarised with such and such a document, you

    5 may do so, but to put the question like a policeman,

    6 like an investigating judge, to see what happened within

    7 the confidential relationship between the Prosecutor and

    8 the witness, that is not appropriate. It would be as if

    9 the Prosecutor were to ask you, Mr. Nobilo, or you,

    10 Mr. Hayman, when you have a witness, "What exactly

    11 happened in your relationship between the witness that

    12 you are offering and yourself?"

    13 For example, you may draw your own conclusion from

    14 the lack of familiarity of this witness with that

    15 document, but the Trial Chamber will not involve itself

    16 with these matters. We will not repeat this again. So

    17 please continue your questioning with the documents that

    18 you are producing, and you will see what the witness

    19 will tell you. The incident is closed.

    20 It is now 1.00. We will resume at 2.30.

    21 (1.00 pm)

    22 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)




  72. 1 (2.30 pm)

    2 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed, Mr. Registrar, will you

    3 have the accused brought in?

    4 (Accused brought in)

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, continue.

    6 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, your Honour.

    7 Dr. Mujezinovic, is it correct that you had contact

    8 with members of the Vitezovi unit in connection with

    9 rendering medical treatment in April 1993?

    10 A. I did extend medical treatment to Croatian soldiers, HVO

    11 and whoever else came among them; the Vitezovi, we

    12 extended aid to them.

    13 Q. In connection with that work, would you have conducted

    14 medical exams or examinations of those soldiers?

    15 A. No, I was not alone, there were several of us. I said

    16 that all the wounded who came were examined, both

    17 civilians and military people.

    18 Q. So you and your fellow doctors would have conducted

    19 those examinations?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Would you agree with the statement that the Vitezovi

    22 unit, the members of the Vitezovi unit were on drugs all

    23 the time?

    24 A. I do not know that.

    25 Q. If you would look at -- if you would retrieve -- and

  73. 1 perhaps the usher can assist -- Defence exhibit 31,

    2 I would ask that page 3 of that exhibit be put on the

    3 ELMO, and the relevant portions to which I will be

    4 calling the witness's attention are lines 3 and 4 at the

    5 top of the page marked 3 at the bottom of that page. We

    6 need the top few lines put on the ELMO, please. Page 3,

    7 it is the second page but it is actually numbered

    8 page 3, so the back of the first page, at the top of

    9 that page. If that could be enlarged, perhaps, and the

    10 document moved down a little so it could be even further

    11 enlarged. Thank you.

    12 I would like to call your attention to a

    13 particular sentence. I know this is an English language

    14 document so I will read it to you so that it can be

    15 properly translated and then I will ask you a question

    16 about it. The third full sentence of this page reads as

    17 follows and I quote:

    18 "The Vitezovi units used to rob apartments and

    19 houses and were on drugs all the time."

    20 Did you make that statement?

    21 A. I did not say that exactly in the way you have just

    22 translated it to me, that it has been translated to me.

    23 I told the Hague investigators that units that called

    24 themselves HOS and later Vitezovi, that there was a

    25 rumour in Vitez that they were on drugs. When

  74. 1 I intervened as a doctor to treat Darko Kraljevic, my

    2 colleagues Tibold Franjo and Zvonko believed that Darko

    3 had a heart attack or had had -- was on drugs.

    4 On the way, I heard from them that this was the

    5 diagnosis. I did not see those units using drugs, but

    6 the story was that they were on drugs and alcohol.

    7 Q. The story from whom?

    8 A. The people were talking about it.

    9 Q. Was it a remark that was widely spoken?

    10 A. It was mentioned very frequently, that they were using

    11 drugs and they were even trafficking with drugs,

    12 particularly among the youth.

    13 Q. On how many --

    14 A. I apologise, but I personally did not eye-witness that.

    15 Q. Can you --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me, Mr. Hayman. I wish to consult my

    17 colleagues. (Pause). Continue, Mr. Hayman.

    18 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

    19 Did you read this statement or rather have it read

    20 to you and translated for you before you signed it?

    21 A. Yes, but I did not agree even then, as I said, with the

    22 translation. I thought it was not a good translation.

    23 I saw not just this but other places that are absurd,

    24 and I said that it was not so, but I did sign it in the

    25 end.

  75. 1 Q. When it was read to you, did the translator read the

    2 acknowledgment at the end of the statement which reads:

    3 "This statement has been read to me in the Bosnian

    4 language and is true to the best of my knowledge and

    5 recollection."

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. You knew this statement was to be used potentially in a

    8 legal proceeding in which someone could go to jail;

    9 correct?

    10 A. I told you and I repeat again that I did not agree with

    11 the translation which was orally made to me, and what

    12 I claimed then and I claim now is that the story was in

    13 cafes, in restaurants that this unit was consuming and

    14 selling drugs. I had to intervene once as a doctor and

    15 two of my colleagues told me: they are on drugs, and you

    16 will see what you will do; it is our belief that it is a

    17 coronary. I personally never eyewitnessed the taking of

    18 drugs or the selling of drugs. I did not sit with them

    19 in cafes, I did not socialise with them.

    20 Q. At the time you signed the statement, did you tell

    21 anyone that you believed portions of it were incorrect

    22 or incomplete?

    23 A. Yes, I did. I told the investigator of the Hague

    24 Tribunal.

    25 Q. Who was that? Do you remember the name of the

  76. 1 investigator?

    2 JUDGE JORDA: The President and the judges are not here to

    3 conduct enquiries into the way in which investigations

    4 were done. The judges are here to follow the hearings

    5 and to rule whether Mr. Blaskic is guilty or not.

    6 I think, Mr. Hayman, you have asked a question correctly;

    7 the witness answered it. I would like the Prosecutor to

    8 make a comment on its investigation, if he will. If

    9 not ...

    10 Mr. Prosecutor, do you wish to comment, or

    11 Mr. Kehoe. It is not an enquiry that the President is

    12 doing; it is simply to ask you whether you have any

    13 comments to make.

    14 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have previously made an objection

    15 about the questions about the manner of the conduct of

    16 the investigation. I raised that objection earlier; it

    17 was sustained. We are revisiting the issue; I suspect

    18 we will continue to revisit that issue. I would object

    19 to the continued line of questioning in that regard.

    20 MR. HAYMAN: May I be heard?

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman?

    22 MR. HAYMAN: Just a moment. The issue is whether the witness

    23 made this statement in his statement, and to whom he may

    24 have made it. I cannot call the investigator to tell

    25 the court whether or not the witness made this statement

  77. 1 unless I can identify the investigator. It is certainly

    2 within my right to call the investigator to impeach the

    3 witness if in fact the witness would be impeaching.

    4 If this is sensitive information I have no

    5 objection to the witness writing this on a piece of

    6 paper and submitting it under seal, confidentially into

    7 the record. I am not trying to disclose anything

    8 confidential, but I think this is a fair question in any

    9 system.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: I think, Mr. Prosecutor, that the point made by

    11 Mr. Hayman differs a little from the one we had this

    12 morning. This morning, we, the judges, intervened

    13 because there was something wrong in the way in which

    14 the Defence counsel was questioning the witness.

    15 However, now we are dealing with something slightly

    16 different which can be very important for the Defence;

    17 that is to see whether the statement made by the witness

    18 that he is coming back to is important or not. As it is

    19 important for the Defence, the Tribunal does not wish to

    20 make an enquiry within an enquiry; that is not its role,

    21 therefore we are going to summarise the situation as

    22 follows.

    23 The questions put by the Defence are legitimate

    24 and it differs from what was said this morning. If the

    25 witness wishes anonymously to write on a piece of paper

  78. 1 the name, to show his goodwill, he may do so. Generally

    2 speaking, the court has heard what has been said, all of

    3 it is in the record and the court will come to its own

    4 conclusions as to what it should bear in mind of what

    5 has been said and what it should not take into

    6 consideration. Is that clear?

    7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I am very willing to provide to

    8 the Defence the name of the investigator or

    9 investigators who took this statement. I am not sure

    10 the witness remembers. If he does, he can answer; if he

    11 does not, I will supply the name of the investigator or

    12 investigators who took this statement to the Defence.

    13 A. Mr. Greg. He is here. I cannot remember the name of the

    14 other investigator.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: This problem will come up again and the

    16 Tribunal has faced it frequently in the past, the

    17 question of the statement taken in Serbo-Croatian, then

    18 translated into English as a rule, and then when the

    19 witness reads it, he is doing so in his own language.

    20 The judges have already decided to improve the system of

    21 taking of statements with the OTP.

    22 For the moment we are going to close this

    23 incident. If the witness wishes to answer, and he has

    24 already done, he may do so and he need not. What is

    25 very important for the Tribunal is that we know which is

  79. 1 the final statement, which is the truth for the witness

    2 today in answering the questions by Mr. Hayman. I think

    3 that is clear, so we can go on to the next question.

    4 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

    5 Did you ever see a copy of this statement, which

    6 is the long ten-page statement, in the Bosnian language,

    7 or is the only copy you ever saw the English language

    8 copy?

    9 A. I read a statement in Bosnian, and I said that it was

    10 not a good translation, and that there are many

    11 discrepancies. It was a very bad translation.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: I think this question has already been posed.

    13 MR. HAYMAN: That, your Honour, was with respect to the

    14 four-page second statement. I am just trying to find

    15 out which statements this witness has seen so we know

    16 where the accurate testimony is.

    17 A. I saw both documents, both this one and the other one.

    18 The first was a poor version of the Bosnian. It was in

    19 Bosnian, but a poor translation, and orally, when they

    20 translated the other one to me, I also said it was a

    21 poor version. I know very little English.

    22 Q. Just to make it perfectly clear, you saw both of your

    23 statements which are Defence exhibit 30, the

    24 four-page statement, and Defence exhibit 31, the

    25 ten-page statement, in the Bosnian language in print;

  80. 1 correct?

    2 A. No, not both, only one, only the first one.

    3 Q. When you say the first, are you referring to the

    4 four-page statement or the ten-page statement?

    5 A. The first ten-page statement.

    6 MR. HAYMAN: Referring, your Honour, to Defence exhibit D31,

    7 the ten-page statement. Thank you, doctor.

    8 How many times did you treat Darko Kraljevic for a

    9 medical problem or administer an injection to him or

    10 otherwise see him in a medical capacity?

    11 A. I went only once to treat Kraljevic Darko, I have

    12 already answered that question. Do I need to repeat

    13 once again the whole story?

    14 Q. No, I am not asking for a long answer. My question

    15 is --

    16 A. The treatment lasted ten days.

    17 Q. Over that ten-day period, how many times did you see

    18 him?

    19 A. Every day.

    20 Q. Did you have conversations with him on each of those

    21 days?

    22 A. I have already told you that every evening or afternoon,

    23 sometimes with his wife, he would come by car. He would

    24 drive me to the medical centre. I had to wait in the

    25 surgery until the nurse gave him the shot

  81. 1 intravenously. After he was administered the injection,

    2 he would keep me up to a hour, a hour and a half --

    3 twice his wife was with him -- just to talk to me.

    4 Q. Did Darko Kraljevic abuse narcotic drugs?

    5 A. I did not see him use drugs.

    6 Q. Did you conclude as a result of treating him that he had

    7 suffered an overdose of cocaine?

    8 A. No. In my statement I said that the colleagues who came

    9 to pick me up to ask me to examine him because they were

    10 afraid, they thought it was either a coronary or an

    11 overdose. Dr. Franjo Tibold asked me to go to Darko

    12 Kraljevic's house and he said to me, "Mujezin, you must

    13 go. If you are not willing to go, his soldiers will

    14 take you by force." I as a doctor gave him an injection

    15 that is given for detoxification after abuse of alcohol

    16 and I gave him a diazepam and he felt better and he

    17 received those injections over a period of ten days.

    18 Anyway, I think you can find all this written down in

    19 the medical register.

    20 Q. Could the ELMO be turned on, please? I would like to

    21 read the next two sentences after following the sentence

    22 that I read a moment ago. This is from the second page,

    23 although it is marked page 3, of Defence exhibit D31:

    24 "On a certain occasion, I managed to bring

    25 Kraljevic out of a crisis induced by drugs due to

  82. 1 overdosing. I believe it was cocaine."

    2 Have you ever made that statement, doctor?

    3 A. No, I did not agree with that statement because this is

    4 what I said, that there were suspicions that he had an

    5 attack induced either by drugs or a heart problem,

    6 because there was the story going round Vitez that he

    7 was on drugs.

    8 Q. Those two sentences I read to you, were they translated

    9 to you by the interpreter who read you the statement

    10 before you signed it in the same way that they were

    11 translated for you today?

    12 JUDGE JORDA: I apologise, we do not understand, Mr. Hayman.

    13 I think the judges and I have told you what is important

    14 is the truth, therefore I think the question is very

    15 simple. It is no longer a question of finding out

    16 whether this statement was made, whether that is in

    17 contradiction with what he said today. You can deduce

    18 what you like from that, but for the moment I think the

    19 problem is a simple one, and I wish to insist that we

    20 return to the simplicity of the question. Will you ask

    21 the witness whether, yes or no, he administered, after

    22 he noted an overdose such as he mentioned in his first

    23 statement -- whether he did that or not. He will answer

    24 yes or no, and then you will simply deduce from that

    25 that the statement differs from what he is saying now.

  83. 1 Continue, please.

    2 MR. HAYMAN: Did you manage to bring Kraljevic out of a

    3 crisis induced by cocaine due to an overdose?

    4 A. I cannot claim that it was cocaine, because that cannot

    5 be established without laboratory tests and you know

    6 that very well. In order to prove that, you need

    7 special laboratory tests to establish what kind of

    8 poison or narcotic drug is in question. I said what

    9 I administered. I can only make a temporary diagnosis;

    10 whether it is correct or not, that is another matter, it

    11 is just the hypothesis. You need objective laboratory

    12 tests to prove that diagnosis. In medicine, that is how

    13 you proceed, we may assume.

    14 Q. Was the patient conscious when you saw him on this

    15 occasion?

    16 A. The patient was conscious, he was very disturbed, he was

    17 psychotic.

    18 Q. Did he tell you whether he had ingested or injected any

    19 substance?

    20 A. I examined him, I did not ask him anything, I gave him a

    21 shot. He was choking, he was very disturbed. I gave

    22 him diazepam and an injection for detoxification and he

    23 calmed down after five minutes. You can bring over my

    24 colleagues who were present who will tell you that he

    25 insulted them, saying they did not know anything and

  84. 1 that I solved his problem in five minutes, so you see --

    2 how can I answer questions on medicine here?

    3 Q. Doctor, if he was not capable of speaking to you, you

    4 can simply tell us that and that is fine. I am not

    5 asking for anything further in that regard.

    6 A. I said that he was conscious, that he was not in a coma,

    7 that he was very aggressive, that he was cursing, that

    8 he was walking around, he was insulting people. After

    9 the therapy he calmed down in five minutes. I do not

    10 know what else I could tell you about that.

    11 Q. You have answered our question. I thank you.

    12 Based on your various treatments and encounters

    13 with Darko Kraljevic, would you agree with the statement

    14 that he was not psychologically stable?

    15 A. I said that he was not a stable person psychologically,

    16 that he is emotional, that he tends to overreact, and

    17 with such people you cannot foresee what their next

    18 reaction will be. That is the way he behaved. In our

    19 language, they say he was -- you know, pretending to be

    20 very important. He was a show-off, he would fight with

    21 people, he always wanted to be at the very top. That is

    22 the way he was. People tended to avoid him. He was

    23 strong, a big man.

    24 Q. Would you agree that he was a psychologically unstable

    25 person?

  85. 1 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, your Honour, the witness has answered

    2 that question.

    3 MR. HAYMAN: I would like a direct answer, your Honour.

    4 MR. HARMON: He has provided the court with a direct answer.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Answer briefly, doctor, please, quickly and

    6 briefly.

    7 A. Yes, he was psychologically unstable, explosive.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: You have outlined on the transparency that is

    9 currently placed on top of Prosecution's exhibit 45 the

    10 area belonging to the Kolonija neighbourhood. I call

    11 your attention back to it.

    12 During the conflict in April 1993 in Vitez, was

    13 Darko Kraljevic in control of the part of Vitez called

    14 Kolonija?

    15 A. I mentioned in my statement that he gave me two

    16 telephone numbers when I was brought in to work on

    17 19th April. I was told by these people that he had his

    18 command in a building -- I can show you which

    19 building -- in Kolonija. If you are interested in

    20 that, I can show the building to you.

    21 Q. I would like to do that in a moment, but first I would

    22 like to ask it again: is it your opinion that during the

    23 April conflict in 1993 in Vitez that Darko Kraljevic was

    24 in control of the neighbourhood called Kolonija?

    25 A. I do not know that. I do not know that, who exercised

  86. 1 control where and who commanded where. I really do not

    2 know that, because I had no opportunity of seeing that

    3 or finding out.

    4 Q. If the usher could assist, your Honour, and place the

    5 statement of the witness which is exhibit D30, that is

    6 the four-page statement on the ELMO. I am going to have

    7 to ask the usher to stand by, because the portion of the

    8 statement to which I would like to call the witness's

    9 attention begins at the bottom of the page marked 3 and

    10 then carries over to the top of the page marked 4. So

    11 we are going to read from the bottom of page 3 and the

    12 top of page 4 of that statement. If the page could be

    13 moved up slightly perhaps it can be enlarged a little

    14 bit more. Thank you.

    15 Let me read the first two sentences to orient you,

    16 doctor. This is the beginning of the paragraph at the

    17 bottom:

    18 "As I mentioned in my earlier statement, Darko

    19 Kraljevic visited me in the War Hospital on April

    20 18th 1993. I did not have any contact with Darko after

    21 that."

    22 It is this sentence I would like to call your

    23 attention to:

    24 "However, I know that during the April conflict in

    25 Vitez, Darko was in control of the part of Vitez called

  87. 1 'Kolonija' and was headquartered with his soldiers in

    2 the building called 'Banjalucanka' marked '4' in the

    3 aerial photo."

    4 First, do you agree with the statement:

    5 "I know that during the April conflict in Vitez

    6 Darko was in control of the part of Vitez called

    7 'Kolonija'."

    8 A. First of all, I said that I was taken away on the 19th.

    9 Secondly, after that, I really did not see Darko

    10 Kraljevic again. Thirdly, this building is across the

    11 street from my building and there were soldiers in front

    12 of the building and his soldiers had two cafes in the

    13 building there. For example on one occasion I went to

    14 have a tooth extracted by my colleague, Zoran Markovic,

    15 a dentist. I went with Dr. Tibold, and they told me,

    16 "These are the soldiers of Darko Kraljevic in the cafes

    17 in the same building. They will not do you any harm; do

    18 not worry", because I really would not dare walk

    19 around. It is true, they confirmed that he was in that

    20 building when I went to have a tooth extracted. Rumour

    21 also had it that he even had cameras there and that they

    22 could follow passers-by and whoever was there. I was

    23 taken on 19th April 1993, not the 18th.

    24 Q. I will bring you the red pen and then perhaps you could

    25 mark the building called Banjalucanka on the

  88. 1 transparency. Could you do that for us?

    2 A. This is the whole building of Banjalucanka. Cafes were

    3 there and here (indicates), and I was not there in the

    4 office, but Dr. Markovic and Dr. Tibold told me that Darko

    5 was here with his command.

    6 Q. Shall we mark that building with a K for Kraljevic?

    7 A. I cannot hear you. I cannot hear an interpretation.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Ask your question again, Mr. Hayman.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: May I mark that building, the one you have

    10 indicated with a letter K to indicate Kraljevic

    11 headquarters?

    12 A. Sir, I told you that Dr. Franjo Tibold and Dr. Zoran

    13 Markovic showed me where Darko Kraljevic's command was,

    14 but I also said that I was never in that building and

    15 I never saw Darko Kraljevic sitting there. That is what

    16 I told the investigators too, and I was told, "Do not

    17 worry." I had a terrible pain in my tooth and

    18 Dr. Markovic extracted a tooth of mine that day.

    19 I showed you the building, I marked it, and the cafes

    20 where I saw soldiers and I was told that they belonged

    21 to Darko Kraljevic's unit.

    22 Q. I take it then it is your testimony that the pertinent

    23 statement I read beginning on page 3 and carrying over

    24 to page 4 of the four-page statement which is exhibit

    25 D30 -- your testimony is you never made that statement;

  89. 1 is that right?

    2 A. I did not say that I never made that statement; I said

    3 that I did not say it that way.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Please, Mr. Registrar, everything is in the

    5 record, I think, and this is the answer the witness has

    6 been trying to give you for many minutes. This must be

    7 taken very clearly. Continue, please.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: Have you told us everything you can about what

    9 you told the investigators concerning Mr. Kraljevic's

    10 control of Kolonija?

    11 A. Please, this is the second time I am telling you this.

    12 I did not know who was in command, where. I really did

    13 not know. I really did not know that. I did not know.

    14 I just told you that Dr. Tibold and Dr. Markovic --

    15 Dr. Zoran Markovic told me that Darko Kraljevic was in

    16 that building with his command and we saw soldiers in

    17 these cafes that I pointed out to you, and they said,

    18 "These are Darko's soldiers." Which part of town was

    19 under his command I really do not know. Can you

    20 understand me? At that moment, I had been waiting for

    21 three days for somebody to kill me and now you are

    22 asking me to find things out, to be an investigating

    23 judge. what part of town was Darko Kraljevic in charge

    24 of?

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Doctor, you must know that the Tribunal is

  90. 1 most appreciative of the effort you are making. The

    2 Tribunal is trying to ensure justice and that is our

    3 role. I know that all these questions coming to you

    4 from the Prosecution and the Defence after many years

    5 after those painful events are complex, difficult and

    6 painful, but you must at the same time understand the

    7 questions put to you by the Defence, because they are

    8 defending the interests of General Blaskic.

    9 The Tribunal is also here to keep calling to order

    10 both the Prosecutor and the Defence. There is a point

    11 beyond which we will not tolerate things.

    12 Mr. Hayman, when you ask a question, try not to

    13 repeat the same question. The witness has told you what

    14 he has to say. I will try to synthesise. I think that

    15 we have, by now, realised that the witness made these

    16 statements, and that today, many months later, he does

    17 not find the exact words in those statements. He is not

    18 confirming fully what was said there. Put the question

    19 to him so that you know exactly what he thinks today,

    20 but the Tribunal will not allow two, three, four times

    21 the same questions to be put from different angles.

    22 Please bear this in mind. We are unanimous in

    23 that respect. It is true that you have been doing your

    24 cross-examination for longer than you said, and the

    25 Tribunal wishes to take this trial forward.

  91. 1 Do you need a rest? If you need a rest we are

    2 willing to give you a rest so that you can calm down,

    3 which seems to be lacking at this point, and the judges

    4 wish to restore that serenity to the proceedings. Do

    5 you need a rest, doctor?

    6 A. Me? No, I would like for us to finish. I do not

    7 understand. You see, I am telling you that I cannot

    8 claim, nor did I ever claim, because I absolutely could

    9 not find out and therefore how could I claim that a man

    10 was a commander of Rijeka. How would I know who was the

    11 commander? That is what the Defence keeps asking me to

    12 do, to say that. General Blaskic did not give me a list

    13 of his commanders, saying Darko Kraljevic is in charge

    14 of Kolonija and whatever. How should I know? I do not

    15 know, I really do not know.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: No, doctor. The Tribunal is simply saying

    17 that there were statements that were made and it is

    18 quite normal for the Defence to try and find out which

    19 statement precisely reflects your opinion, so tell us

    20 what you think today, and you could say that statement

    21 corresponded to what you thought at the time or perhaps

    22 there were problems of interpretation, so please try and

    23 calm down, answer the questions and tell us exactly what

    24 you think, and if there is a contradiction between that

    25 and your previous statement, you will simply say so.

  92. 1 We have wasted five minutes, but the Tribunal felt

    2 it necessary to make these remarks.

    3 Mr. Hayman, continue.

    4 MR. HAYMAN: Doctor, your testimony today: is there any truth

    5 or basis in the statement I read to you concerning

    6 Kraljevic's control of Kolonija, or do you totally

    7 repudiate that statement as you sit here today?

    8 A. Please, I am telling you again that I did not agree with

    9 the interpretation. Secondly, I did not say that Darko

    10 Kraljevic is in command in Kolonija. I am saying that

    11 for the third time. I did not say that to anyone.

    12 I said that Darko Kraljevic had a command post, as my

    13 colleagues told me, in an apartment building there

    14 called Banjalucanka. I do not know what else I could

    15 tell you, and whether he was commander of all Kolonija.

    16 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, the exhibits that have been marked

    17 during this testimony are D30, the four-page

    18 statement --

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar, can you help me?

    20 THE REGISTRAR: I think the document D30 is the

    21 four-page document.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: What is the number on top? It began

    23 "Mujezinovic number ..."

    24 THE REGISTRAR: Just a moment, please. Let me get it.

    25 (Pause).

  93. 1 JUDGE JORDA: We are going to have the numbers now. D30

    2 will be exhibit witness statement, the four-page witness

    3 statement; is that correct, Mr. Hayman?

    4 MR. HAYMAN: It is.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: D31 is the same but consisting of ten pages.

    6 MR. HAYMAN: Correct.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Then D32 will be the document signed by

    8 General Blaskic, is that right, in English?

    9 MR. HAYMAN: Correct.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: D33 is an exhibit in Serbo-Croatian. Is that

    11 this one, in handwriting. So we have these five

    12 exhibits.

    13 MR. HAYMAN: Then, your Honour, the transparency, I would

    14 like to mark it "Doctor MM" and admit it with the other

    15 exhibits.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Why MM, Mr. Hayman? Yes, I understand. What

    17 is the number of the transparency?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: It is an exhibit just like any other. D35.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: If you do not mind, Mr. Hayman, is that

    20 acceptable? No objections?

    21 Mr. Prosecutor, no objections?

    22 Very well, have you finished, Mr. Hayman?

    23 MR. HAYMAN: We have. Doctor, I would like to thank you for

    24 your patience.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Mr. Prosecutor, you are entitled to

  94. 1 redirect.

    2 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

    3 Thank you.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: I turn to my colleagues. Judge Riad, do you

    5 have any questions, please?

    6 JUDGE RIAD: Dr. Mujezinovic, I should like to have some

    7 clarifications from you concerning certain points in

    8 your testimony yesterday and today. This morning, in

    9 your reply to a question put to you by Defence counsel

    10 concerning the position -- can you hear me well,

    11 Mr. Mujezinovic?

    12 A. Yes now.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Do I need to begin again?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. In your reply to a question put to you by Defence

    16 counsel this morning concerning the hierarchy and the

    17 position of Mr. Kordic in relation to Mr. Blaskic,

    18 I understood that you said that Mr. Kordic was superior

    19 to Mr. Blaskic. This raises a very precise question

    20 regarding responsibility in the region of Vitez. Was

    21 Kordic responsible for the region of Vitez or not?

    22 The question becomes even more important in view

    23 of the indictment. In the indictment, there is the name

    24 of Mr. Kordic and Mr. Blaskic, and they are classified at

    25 two different levels. Mr. Kordic in the indictment is

  95. 1 referred to as being in:

    2 "The political party, name Democratic Union of

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He has been Vice-President and

    4 member of the Presidency of HZ-HB."

    5 Therefore this is a political role. Mr. Blaskic is

    6 referred to in the indictment:

    7 "He held the rank of colonel and was the Commander

    8 of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone of the HVO."

    9 So this is military responsibility. In your

    10 reply, do you consider Kordic to have been higher

    11 hierarchically superior, who also had command over the

    12 region of Vitez? Could you give us this clarification?

    13 It could be very important.

    14 A. Your Honour, Dario Kordic was -- in the hierarchy was in

    15 the field of politics the Deputy President of the

    16 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna. That is what I knew

    17 to the best of my knowledge, but he also held the rank

    18 of colonel; that is to say that he had a dual role. Who

    19 was superior to who I really do not know; I just know

    20 that he had a political position, a political post,

    21 Kordic, but he also had a military rank as well. It is

    22 unusual in our part of the world, Herceg-Bosna included,

    23 that politicians get military ranks. Really who was

    24 superior to who I really do not know.

    25 Q. You were a resident of Vitez, were you not?

  96. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. In the general opinion of the inhabitants of Vitez, to

    3 whom would they address their grievances or their

    4 requests?

    5 A. I did not understand the question. Could you repeat it,

    6 please?

    7 Q. In the region of Vitez --

    8 A. I cannot hear the translation. I can hear now, yes.

    9 Would you please repeat the question, sir?

    10 Q. In the region of Vitez, to whom would one address

    11 oneself if you had requests, complaints, grievances or

    12 demands? Would it be to General Blaskic or to Kordic?

    13 A. Because we were used to addressing the police concerning

    14 questions of crime or a court of justice, I do not know

    15 who people addressed then. When the HVO government was

    16 established in Vitez, I know that they were addressed to

    17 because those people were losing their jobs and they

    18 sought help from legal authorities, and I never

    19 addressed either Kordic or Blaskic, neither me nor my

    20 family; that is to say that there was an administrative

    21 centre, the municipal part of the building, and I do not

    22 know.

    23 Kordic lived in Busovaca and he would come to

    24 Vitez only from time to time. I do not know what Kordic

    25 was in Busovaca, but I just know that he introduced

  97. 1 himself as the Deputy President, the Vice-President of

    2 Herceg-Bosna, and what position he had in Busovaca

    3 I really do not know.

    4 Q. He did not reside in Vitez?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Also in your testimony yesterday, you spoke several

    7 times about attacks against civilians, Muslim civilians

    8 of Vitez. You mentioned murders, arrests, cases of

    9 confiscation, cases of destruction of banks and shops,

    10 the butcher's and others.

    11 According to you, was there any selective approach

    12 to this destruction of particular classes or particular

    13 properties, or was it done at random without any

    14 discrimination?

    15 A. Your Honour, perhaps I could put it in the following

    16 way: in Vitez, in this part which is marked as Kolonija

    17 by the Defence, there was only one building that was

    18 owned by the Bosnian Muslims and everything was

    19 destroyed. In Vitez, during the night, prominent

    20 Bosniak Muslims were robbed and killed. I mentioned in

    21 my statement that in January, in Stare Bila in a village

    22 on the main road leading to Vitez, one of the richest

    23 businessmen from Vitez was killed, Hasan Skopljak. He

    24 was robbed too. Also in the village of Nadioci near

    25 Vitez, another businessman was killed. I also mentioned

  98. 1 in my statement -- I should not be repeating all of that

    2 -- I mentioned quite a few things. We used to have a

    3 communist system; we had state firms. For example the

    4 firm Krivaja from Sajidovic was destroyed, the

    5 commercial bank of Travnik was destroyed. The butchery,

    6 it is a chain of stores with their main office in

    7 Zenica, all of that was destroyed.

    8 I also mentioned that only one establishment, one

    9 catering establishment in the neighbourhood of Rijeka in

    10 Vitez was owned by a Croat and that was destroyed. All

    11 other shops, all other establishments were absolutely

    12 under the control of the HVO, the military and the

    13 police.

    14 Finally, in Vitez, 48 people remained in Vitez of

    15 Muslim origin, women, men and children, 5,000 were

    16 expelled. Not a single one of these people has returned

    17 to that area. In my opinion, this is a well-planned

    18 action of ethnic cleansing. I worked as a doctor,

    19 specialist, for 22 years, my wife as an economist too,

    20 and everything we had was there. People came and took

    21 that.

    22 I asked a friend of mine, an engineer, Jozo

    23 Drovic, "Jozo, what is this?" He said, "This is Croat

    24 historical territory." I said, "This is my house." He

    25 said, "You made your house there by accident; you lost

  99. 1 your way. This is Croat."

    2 I cannot understand this as a person. I said,

    3 "Jozo, you can call your house whatever you wish, but

    4 you cannot call my house that." He said, "No, no, we

    5 are rectifying historical mistakes." I do not know if

    6 I have been clear.

    7 Q. You are very clear. I have a further question, a

    8 clarification, concerning the Ahmici massacre. You

    9 referred to that massacre, and you said that even

    10 animals were killed, human beings and animals. What

    11 were the dimensions of this massacre? Do you know more

    12 or less who were the perpetrators of that massacre?

    13 A. Your Honour, the village of Ahmici, there is an upper

    14 part of this village which is ethnically pure and then

    15 there is the lower part. We in Vitez called it Zume.

    16 There were mixed houses, Croat houses, Muslim houses.

    17 I think there were even Serbs there, because this was

    18 owned by the municipality and they gave plots of land to

    19 people to build houses.

    20 I said in my statement what I was told by two

    21 nurses, that at 1.00 am, all the Croats were moved out

    22 of Ahmici where there was a mixed neighbourhood so that

    23 in the morning at 4.30 am, everything that could move

    24 was killed. The upper Ahmici, the upper part of the

    25 village Ahmici, was unaffected.

  100. 1 I am saying that in November the Croatian

    2 Democratic Community in lower Ahmici offered to people

    3 to hand over their weapons. They made a list, the HVO

    4 soldiers, because the HVO army was of the Croatian

    5 Democratic Community. In lower Ahmici, Santic Nenad, an

    6 HVO soldier, and a local Muslim collected weapons from

    7 the people who had them. They were guaranteed absolute

    8 security. Sefkija Djidic reported that all these people

    9 reported in Vitez for their work assignments. I asked

    10 Nazif Ahmic, an engineer, "Why did you hand over your

    11 weapons you had bought primarily from Croats?" He said,

    12 "We are in favour of co-existence of peace. We do not

    13 want to wage war with the Croats. They are guaranteeing

    14 security and safety to us."

    15 Your Honour, not a single one of these people

    16 survived the massacre in Ahmici, a single one of these

    17 people who had surrendered their arms, handed over their

    18 weapons. According to the reports I received

    19 officially, in Ahmici 118 children, women, were killed.

    20 The main point is that the army was not there. These

    21 were civilians, primarily. All the houses of the

    22 Muslims and the stables and barns were destroyed. It is

    23 a village, you know. The two local mosques. I entered

    24 Ahmici because they took me there twice a week by car,

    25 actually to work as a specialist in Busovaca. I came

  101. 1 there after seven days. I could not believe that there

    2 were people who could do something like that. I do not

    3 know if I have been clear.

    4 Q. Yes, you are clear. You could not believe that people

    5 could do that, but which people? Could we know whether

    6 they were military men or civilians who committed this

    7 massacre? Who are the people who collected the arms

    8 from the citizens before this massacre was committed?

    9 A. Santic Nenad and Ahmic Fahrad, they collected the

    10 weapons of the local people. That is what Mr. Sefkija

    11 Djidic reported to us and they reported for their work

    12 assignments too. Your Honour, I did not see who did

    13 that, who had shot these people. I said in my statement

    14 that two nurses told me about the events in Ahmici.

    15 I came into Ahmici after seven days. I was in an

    16 ambulance with a driver called Vujica, I think, who was

    17 taking me to work to the neighbouring municipality of

    18 Busovaca.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Dr. Mujezinovic.

    20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEN: Doctor, like the President I appreciate

    21 that you must feel the way you do, but, like him, I ask

    22 you to bear with me. This is a court of law, and we

    23 have the responsibilities which you know courts of law

    24 have. A moment ago, you told my colleague Judge Riad

    25 that the army was not there; you were talking about

  102. 1 Ahmici. Just by way of clarification, would I be right

    2 in understanding you to mean that the army of the BiH

    3 was not there?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. You did not mean that? What army were you referring to

    6 when you said, "The army was not there"?

    7 A. In Ahmici, in the village of Ahmici, there were no

    8 soldiers, there were no military formations, no armed

    9 formations, there were no army units stationed in

    10 Ahmici.

    11 Q. I see.

    12 A. It is possible that soldiers were on leave. At that

    13 time, soldiers had to leave their weapons in their

    14 barracks.

    15 Q. I understand you.

    16 A. In the village of Ahmici, there was no BH-Army.

    17 Q. I understand you. May I take you back to that portion

    18 of your evidence in which you were talking about

    19 allegations to the effect that armed informal gangs

    20 might have been committing certain acts. You remember

    21 that part of your testimony. I recall also something in

    22 what you said to the effect that it would be strange if

    23 such armed informal gangs were around with a lot of

    24 soldiers under the control of the HVO being also

    25 around. Do you remember that part of your testimony?

  103. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did you say that to anyone at the time, that this would

    3 be strange, if informal armed gangs were around at the

    4 same time when HVO soldiers were present in the

    5 neighbourhood?

    6 A. You see, your Honour, some time at the end of April or

    7 the beginning of May, Mr. Anto Valenta, one of the

    8 Vice-Presidents of Herceg-Bosna, claimed to us at the

    9 meeting of the Crisis Staff that the Croat people or the

    10 HVO in Vitez is very well armed, 90 per cent of them, he

    11 said, and, according to his estimates, only 10 per cent

    12 of the Muslims are armed and HOS is a minimal force in

    13 Vitez. He claimed that 90 per cent of the HVO army was

    14 armed even then, and he asked us not to put up any

    15 resistance because we did not stand a chance.

    16 I did say in my statement that I said on several

    17 occasions at Crisis Staff meetings when Anto Valenta

    18 would say -- many times when an excess incident

    19 happened, he said, "You know, these are informal groups

    20 which are not under our control." That was foolish, in

    21 my opinion with such a lot of army and such a lot of

    22 police in my opinion, that was part of a plan, an

    23 overall plan, because things were done in a planned

    24 fashion. You see, in October, I think the beginning of

    25 November, they destroyed ten buildings and then they

  104. 1 convened a meeting to quiet the situation down. You

    2 have a tense situation and in this way they show, "See

    3 what can happen if you do not accept this?"

    4 Q. Let me see if I understand this. Do I understand you

    5 right to be saying that it was your opinion then that it

    6 would be foolish to suggest that armed informal gangs

    7 could be in the neighbourhood without the approval of

    8 the HVO? Was that your opinion at the time?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. My second question is: did you express that opinion in

    11 one way or another to anyone in authority?

    12 A. Yes, I would say that, but I always received the same

    13 answers.

    14 Q. Let me ask you a subsidiary question. There was a

    15 question of armed personnel. I think Mr. Hayman or

    16 Mr. Nobilo referred to them as armed people, extraneous

    17 to the region, who might have come in on or around the

    18 period beginning 15th or 16th April 1993. The question

    19 was asked of you as to whether you saw any regimental

    20 patches being worn by them. You said, I thought, that

    21 you saw some oak leaves. Do you remember that?

    22 A. (Witness nodded).

    23 Q. Did you see any or a portion of the insignia to connect

    24 them or not to connect them in your mind with the HVO?

    25 A. Your Honour, a unit came to Vitez. I do not know where

  105. 1 they came from, but they were called -- I am not sure,

    2 I think they were called Dominik Pavlovic. People said

    3 that they came from western Herzegovina. They came in

    4 the first half of January. They created chaos in Vitez,

    5 you know, destruction. Whatever little had remained,

    6 they had finished off. They broke into people's

    7 apartments at night together with HVO soldiers.

    8 My opinion is that they were brought to Vitez in

    9 accordance with a programme to make chaos, so that they

    10 could make people move, because at that time, people

    11 were moving out of Vitez. We had refugees who were

    12 fleeing from Vitez because they were afraid to remain in

    13 Vitez. My wife, my children, I, I knew almost

    14 90 per cent of all the people in the municipality and my

    15 wife asked me that we should leave Vitez. She was

    16 afraid for the children. You know what, I can claim

    17 that not a single Croat doctor helped the population of

    18 Vitez, the Croat population of Vitez, as much as I did.

    19 Q. We are going into another area, doctor. Let me put it

    20 this way to you: some people from outside of the area

    21 came into the area in January and created havoc. Was it

    22 your appreciation of the situation that what they were

    23 doing was known or was not known to the HVO personnel

    24 who were in the area?

    25 A. I can say what I think, that they were one army, just

  106. 1 like the BH-Army was one army. They had their command,

    2 they had their chain of command, their hierarchy, and a

    3 military formation cannot just enter a town and do

    4 whatever they wanted to do. In my opinion, you know,

    5 I had done my military service in the army and for a

    6 soldier to do what he was doing, he had to have orders,

    7 and I think that this unit received orders and some of

    8 the local people from the HVO were with them, not all of

    9 them but some.

    10 Q. Let me ask you a connected question. Did you see any of

    11 the local HVO people trying to stop this outside unit

    12 from doing what it was doing?

    13 A. In Vitez, the policy was as follows: who is against this

    14 is against us. I mentioned the example that Croats were

    15 beaten up in Vitez and I can say that not very many

    16 people can dare say that they were beaten up and I can

    17 also claim the following: when I worked from 19th April

    18 1993 in the health centre, a lot of Croats came to see

    19 me as a doctor and they would put into my pocket 100 or

    20 150 Deutschemark and they would say, "It is very

    21 difficult for you Muslims so keep this", but they do not

    22 dare say that now because they will be beaten up.

    23 Q. Let us go back to the remark which you made a while ago

    24 about your own stint of military service. I think you

    25 gave about a year's service towards the end of your

  107. 1 medical training; is that right?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. So you would have had some exposure to military

    4 organisational matters; is that right?

    5 A. That is right.

    6 Q. I do not have the transcript before me, so if I am in

    7 error, do correct me. Am I right in recalling that you

    8 described General Blaskic as Commander of the

    9 Operational Zone of Central Bosnia?

    10 A. Your Honour, I repeated twice that I personally never

    11 met Mr. Blaskic. I saw his signatures, and I was told --

    12 it is a small town, you know. In Vitez, Filip Filipovic

    13 was the Commander of the HVO. I was told Mr. Blaskic had

    14 come to Vitez in, I think, the second half of 1992, I do

    15 not know exactly. I never talked to Blaskic. I did

    16 not. I know the man from pictures and from the street.

    17 It was said that he was the Commander of the HVO. Only

    18 later in the autumn it was said that an operational zone

    19 of Central Bosnia was formed and that Mr. Blaskic, who

    20 was a lieutenant colonel, became the Commander of the

    21 operational zone of Central Bosnia, I think some time in

    22 the autumn of 1992.

    23 Q. Mr. Hayman introduced in evidence a document which you

    24 saw, I believe, D32. It is signed by the accused as

    25 "Colonel Blaskic" and it is dated, I think, 18th April

  108. 1 1993. Did you see the document? Would you like to see

    2 it again?

    3 A. I saw it, yes.

    4 Q. I will just read it as an introduction to what I really

    5 want to ask you. It begins this way:

    6 "On the basis of the orders given by the HVO Head

    7 of Staff, HZ Herceg-Bosna, office number 02 2/101

    8 G48/93, dated April 18th, in order to obey it

    9 completely, I command ...", and then there is a series

    10 of items setting forth specific orders. Did you see

    11 that document in which he says, "I command ..." and

    12 signed it as Colonel Blaskic. Am I right in my

    13 recollection that you saw on the television statements

    14 to the effect that corrective action would be taken by

    15 Mr. Blaskic in relation to various outrages which were

    16 being committed?

    17 A. Some time at the beginning of November at a meeting,

    18 I mentioned in my statement that the representatives of

    19 the HVO, the Croatian government in Vitez, told us that

    20 the Commander of the Operational Zone of Central Bosnia,

    21 Mr. Blaskic, would prevent through his orders looting and

    22 robbery and that he would not allow weapons to be taken

    23 from BH-Army soldiers and that BH-Army convoys can

    24 freely pass through, provided they are announced.

    25 I said there and then and I still believe that this

  109. 1 document -- I said ten minutes ago that after these

    2 orders issued by Mr. Blaskic -- I do not know how big his

    3 influence is in the army, but if somebody is signed

    4 "Commander" in an army, then people are supposed to

    5 obey him. After that, 5,000 Muslims were expelled from

    6 Vitez. I do not know whether Mr. Blaskic had the power

    7 and strength to prevent that. I do not know. I really

    8 do not know what the military hierarchy was in the HVO.

    9 Q. Let me ask you this question: did you become aware of

    10 any public statement denying that General or Colonel

    11 Blaskic had the necessary authority to issue orders with

    12 a view to preventing those things from happening?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. In the course of your evidence, under cross-examination

    15 by Mr. Hayman, you spoke on the question of control over

    16 Kolonija. You did so specifically in relation to a

    17 gentleman by the name of Darko Kraljevic. Am

    18 I pronouncing it right?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. You also outlined Kolonija with the assistance of

    21 Mr. Hayman on the transparency which is on the easel.

    22 Kolonija as you outlined it includes the hotel Vitez.

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Did you happen to know where Colonel Blaskic resided at

    25 the time, that is during the period beginning 15th April

  110. 1 1993?

    2 A. From 15th April 1993. Your Honour, Mr. Blaskic is well

    3 known in Vitez as Commander. When he came first of all

    4 he fortified in a military sense the hotel Vitez. What

    5 I encircled is the urban area of Vitez and that is where

    6 he commanded his army from. I went to see Mario Cerkez

    7 in Kolonija; he was also commander of a unit. You know,

    8 an army cannot have only one unit. I know --

    9 Q. To be brief, then --

    10 A. According to this, it would seem that Darko Kraljevic

    11 was the Commander of Commanders in my opinion. I am not

    12 an expert in hierarchy in the HVO.

    13 Q. My question was a simple one. It was whether Kolonija,

    14 as you outlined it, included the hotel Vitez and whether

    15 Colonel Blaskic resided at the hotel Vitez.

    16 A. I do not know that, I did not see that. I do not know.

    17 Q. In response to Mr. Hayman, you said that "General Blaskic

    18 did not give me a list of his commanders." Should

    19 I understand you to mean that in your mind

    20 General Blaskic had the authority to issue such a list,

    21 the problem being that you did not have that list.

    22 A. Yes. If the Commander of the Operational Zone of

    23 Central Bosnia signs a document as Commander, he has to

    24 know who is under his command in Central Bosnia and

    25 which units are under his command. It is only a normal

  111. 1 sequence of events.

    2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEN: Thank you, doctor.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Dr. Mujezinovic, the Tribunal wishes to thank

    4 you. It is aware of the effort that this entailed for

    5 you, and the suffering that it must have entailed to

    6 relive through all those experiences. I will not put to

    7 you any further questions.

    8 I should simply like you to know that, appearing

    9 before this International Criminal Tribunal, you should

    10 have the feeling that you have said everything that you

    11 have to say about the totality of the grave crimes of

    12 which General Blaskic is accused, so I am not asking you

    13 a question, I simply wish to ask you whether you have a

    14 declaration to make or any additional points to make.

    15 If not, you can go back home, and I hope you will find

    16 there all the serenity that you crave. Is there

    17 something that you have not told us or questions that

    18 you would like to raise that were not put to you?

    19 A. Your Honours, gentlemen from the Prosecution and the

    20 Defence, I have come here as an individual to give you

    21 my story, as Mark Harmon has said, and nothing more than

    22 that. I shall be happy and satisfied if this lofty

    23 Tribunal achieves the prevention of such crimes anywhere

    24 in the world again and I thank you.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mr. Registrar and Mr. Usher, will

  112. 1 you accompany the witness and after that, the Trial

    2 Chamber will rise until 4.35.

    3 (The witness withdrew)

    4 (4.10 pm)

    5 (A short break)

    6 (4.35 pm)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed, Mr. Registrar, please

    8 bring in the accused.

    9 (Accused brought in)

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?

    11 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, your Honours, learned counsel,

    12 good afternoon. The Prosecutor with your permission,

    13 Mr. President, would like to call Mr. Lars Baggesen.

    14 MR. HAYMAN: Before the witness comes in, your Honour, may

    15 I just advise the court that we were handed a minute or

    16 two ago a document entitled "War Diary from Bosnia"

    17 which states:

    18 "This diary is an edited version of the battle

    19 field diary which I kept during my service as an ECMM

    20 monitor."

    21 The name Lars Baggesen appears under it. I do not

    22 know where this came from, if it has been in the

    23 possession of the Prosecution or if the witness mailed

    24 it in, but it is some 33 single-spaced pages in length.

    25 I am sure there will be no cross-examination this

  113. 1 afternoon --

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment, Mr. Hayman. First of all, we

    3 too have a letter from Mr.s Vidovic, I think. It is a

    4 different document. There are many different documents.

    5 Mr. Hayman, first, let us go in order. Where did

    6 you receive this document from?

    7 MR. HAYMAN: The Registrar, the court Registrar was kind

    8 enough to hand it to myself and Mr. Nobilo. Mr. Nobilo's

    9 is in Croatian, mine is in English. We are grateful for

    10 that fact, but I wish to advise the court we will be

    11 studying this as quickly as we possibly can, but, of

    12 course, for the time being we must listen to the witness

    13 and his testimony. I do not know if we have any other

    14 objection to make until we have a chance to read it

    15 tonight.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, could I explain?

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Where does this document come from,

    18 Mr. Cayley?

    19 MR. CAYLEY: This is a war diary kept by the witness who is

    20 about to appear in front of you. It was served on the

    21 Defence in its original language, which was Danish, in

    22 September last year. It remained in the Danish

    23 language, this is my understanding, for a considerable

    24 period of time, I believe, and it may have been the

    25 Defence requested that it be translated into the

  114. 1 Croatian language, and that was done. The Prosecutor

    2 did not do anything with this document. Eventually, and

    3 this is a very short period of time ago, certainly to my

    4 knowledge within the last two to three weeks, an English

    5 translation from the Croatian version was produced. The

    6 document that has just been handed to Mr. Hayman is a

    7 corrected version of that English translation, so in

    8 that sense, it is new to us as well, but it is in

    9 essence an English translation of an original Danish

    10 document.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Still we have a paradoxical situation, that an

    12 exchange of documents is being made before any decision

    13 has been taken by the Tribunal on the submission of

    14 evidence and regarding the witnesses too, so now the

    15 Defence has a document which needs to be communicated to

    16 the Prosecution which has just been translated into

    17 English. Is that so, Mr. Registrar?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Actually, almost so.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Listen, we will take note of it. We will not

    20 delay the debate any further, and we are going to bring

    21 in the next witness.

    22 (Witness entered court)

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Just a minute please. Can you hear me?

    24 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Will you please tell the judges and me your

  115. 1 full name.

    2 THE WITNESS: Mr. President, my full name is Lars Borhoj

    3 Baggesen.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, Mr. Baggesen. Will you now read the

    5 solemn statement which has been given to you. It is

    6 actually an oath.


    8 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Baggesen. Please take a seat.

    9 You have been brought before the Trial Chamber I within

    10 the framework of the charges brought against

    11 Colonel Blaskic. You are a witness of the Prosecution,

    12 who will first question you and then you will be

    13 cross-examined by Defence counsel.

    14 Mr. Prosecutor, how much time have you planned for

    15 this examination-in-chief?

    16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I would estimate five hours for

    17 the examination-in-chief of this witness.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. You may begin.

    19 Examined by MR. CAYLEY

    20 Q. Mr. Baggesen, could you please tell the court the nature

    21 of your current profession?

    22 A. I am an officer in the Danish Army.

    23 Q. What rank are you?

    24 A. A major.

    25 Q. What year did you join the Danish Army?

  116. 1 A. I joined the army in 1976.

    2 Q. I think you were in the home guard whilst you were at

    3 high school; is that correct?

    4 A. That is correct.

    5 Q. Then you went into the regular army after that?

    6 A. That is correct.

    7 Q. Is it correct that from 1976 to 1977, you attended the

    8 Danish Army combat school at Oxbolt in Denmark?

    9 A. That is correct.

    10 Q. This was a course to train junior officers for the

    11 Danish Army; is that correct?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. What was the nature of the training that you underwent

    14 at Oxbolt?

    15 A. Basically we were trained in infantry and armoured

    16 tactics.

    17 Q. This school trained only combat officers for the Danish

    18 Army.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. By "combat officers", what does that mean?

    21 A. It means we were trained to command the units in

    22 battles.

    23 Q. What year were you commissioned into the Danish Army?

    24 A. In 1978.

    25 Q. I think you joined the Danish Royal Hussars; is that

  117. 1 correct?

    2 A. That is correct.

    3 Q. What type of regiment is that?

    4 A. That is a cavalry regiment and now it is an armoured

    5 regiment with tanks.

    6 Q. So originally a horse-mounted regiment, now an armoured

    7 regiment?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. What was your first job with the Royal Hussars?

    10 A. My first job in the first two years was to train the new

    11 professional soldiers. During that period I had another

    12 job, because this was only a peacetime job. My wartime

    13 job was as an intelligence officer at the 2 Zeeland

    14 Brigade.

    15 Q. In Denmark?

    16 A. In Denmark.

    17 Q. As an intelligence officer, what sort of work were you

    18 involved with?

    19 A. We were making analysis of the Soviet Bloc and the

    20 Warsaw Pact.

    21 Q. This was at a time when there was a confrontation

    22 between NATO during the Cold War and the Warsaw Pact?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Did you have formal training as an intelligence officer

    25 in the Danish Army?

  118. 1 A. Yes, we had training at the army special school in

    2 intelligence.

    3 Q. Would I be correct in saying you have a trained eye for

    4 military intelligence matters?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. What rank were you at the time?

    7 A. At that time I was second lieutenant and then I was

    8 promoted to lieutenant.

    9 Q. From 1980 to 1986 I think you commanded a reconnaissance

    10 platoon of the Royal Danish Hussars. Can you explain to

    11 the court the role of a reconnaissance platoon in the

    12 Danish Army?

    13 A. This reconnaissance platoon, we were trained to find the

    14 enemy's frontline, to fight on the enemy frontline, and

    15 do reconnaissance behind the enemy frontline.

    16 Q. A certain intelligence role in that job as well?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. I think you had a break from your regiment in 1981 and

    19 performed some United Nations service?

    20 A. That is correct.

    21 Q. Can you tell the court about that?

    22 A. Yes, I was ordered to Cyprus where the United Nations

    23 had forces, and I had a job as air liaison officer at

    24 the Danish headquarters there.

    25 Q. I think you were also involved in training Danish

  119. 1 soldiers in Cyprus, were you not?

    2 A. Yes, my job was to co-ordinate all the helicopter

    3 flights in that area and I had to train all the Danish

    4 soldiers to work with the helicopters and do some

    5 airborne training.

    6 Q. I think from the wings on your chest you are also an

    7 airborne-trained Danish officer; is that correct?

    8 A. That is correct.

    9 Q. From 1986 to 1990, I think you were the Operations

    10 Officer for Home Guard Region 5 and the second in

    11 command of Home Guard District 92, based in Roskil in

    12 Zeeland in Denmark; is that correct?

    13 A. That is correct.

    14 Q. What rank were you at this time?

    15 A. At that time I think I was first lieutenant and later on

    16 promoted to captain.

    17 Q. What job did this involve?

    18 A. My job as operations officer, I was responsible for the

    19 planning of the operations and trained the units to

    20 carry out those operations, and as the job as second in

    21 command, I was the person who was to take over if the

    22 commander was away.

    23 Q. Or indeed if the commanding officer was killed you would

    24 take over, as second in command.

    25 A. Yes.

  120. 1 Q. Can you explain to the court what the Danish Home Guard

    2 constitutes, what is it made up of in Denmark? What is

    3 its role in Danish national defence?

    4 A. The Danish Home Guard is a volunteer force who are a

    5 part of the Danish armed forces and it consists today --

    6 I think we are 60,000 people, all civilians who are

    7 training during weekends and holidays to do this job.

    8 Q. So your soldiers are part-time?

    9 A. Yes, they are not professionals.

    10 Q. But the commanding officer and a number of his staff are

    11 regular soldiers; is that correct?

    12 A. Yes, officers from the army.

    13 Q. From 1990 to 1995, I think you worked for the Danish

    14 Chief of the Defence Staff, the most senior officer of

    15 the Danish Army; is that correct?

    16 A. Yes, he is commanding the Danish armed forces.

    17 Q. I think it was during this period that you volunteered

    18 for service as a monitor with the European Community

    19 Monitoring Mission; is that correct?

    20 A. That is correct.

    21 Q. We will come back to that, but if we just move forward

    22 to your present day job, I think in 1995 you were

    23 promoted to major; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You were then given command of your own Home Guard

  121. 1 district, District 53 based at Ringsted Barracks in

    2 Denmark; is that correct?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What are you now responsible for as commanding officer

    5 for of that unit? How many men do you command?

    6 A. I have the command of 1,600 men and women and they are

    7 organised in 17 companies. I have one headquarter

    8 company, two police companies, one special

    9 reconnaissance company; the rest of them are infantry

    10 companies.

    11 Q. So the district is subdivided into companies, those are

    12 the smaller units under your command.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. I think you are going to be using this terminology quite

    15 a lot in the course of your testimony, are you not?

    16 A. Yes, I will.

    17 Q. So you have two police companies under your command.

    18 That is not unusual for you, coming from Denmark?

    19 A. No, it is not.

    20 Q. I think lastly, you teach and train intelligence

    21 officers of the Danish Army; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. I think after you returned to Denmark from your service

    24 in the former Yugoslavia, you indeed trained future

    25 monitors for the ECMM mission; is that correct?

  122. 1 A. Yes, I did.

    2 Q. I think you were also requested last year by the Danish

    3 Centre for Human Rights to train civilian human rights

    4 monitors for service in Ceczna?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Am I right in saying that you have been a cavalry

    7 officer in the Danish Army for over 20 years?

    8 A. That is correct.

    9 Q. Serving both with the Danish Army and the European

    10 forces of NATO?

    11 A. That is correct.

    12 Q. How familiar would you say you are with armoured and

    13 infantry tactics and training?

    14 A. I think after all those years I am very familiar with

    15 that.

    16 Q. I think you are probably also quite familiar with the

    17 amour and infantry training and tactics of the Soviet

    18 Bloc, what was the Soviet Bloc?

    19 A. Yes, I am.

    20 Q. Are you also familiar with the term FIBUA or fighting in

    21 built-up areas?

    22 A. Yes, I am.

    23 Q. Could you explain to the court what that is, whether or

    24 not it is actually a recognised military doctrine?

    25 A. Actually fighting in built-up areas is a very difficult

  123. 1 operation to carry out, therefore normally military

    2 units try to avoid going into built-up areas, because it

    3 is difficult to fight in built-up areas, not only

    4 because of all the buildings but there are a lot of

    5 civilians in that area. Therefore normally armies try

    6 to avoid going into built-up areas.

    7 Q. If I can take you back a couple of years, this is the

    8 material part of your testimony; you have given your

    9 background now. When I ask you questions, can you

    10 address your answers to the judges rather than to me?

    11 A. Of course.

    12 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that in 1992, the

    13 Danish Government issued a general request for

    14 volunteers from the armed forces for service in the

    15 ECMM?

    16 A. Yes, that is correct.

    17 Q. I think you volunteered for service, did you not?

    18 A. Yes, I did.

    19 Q. For which months and of which year did you volunteer?

    20 A. I volunteered in 1993 and I did service down there for

    21 the end of March and April, May and June.

    22 Q. I realise these events are from some years ago, and this

    23 is not a memory test, but I do understand that you kept

    24 a diary of events, a personal diary; is that correct?

    25 A. That is correct.

  124. 1 Q. Do you have a copy of that diary with you?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. I am going to ask you to use it to refresh your memory

    4 and refresh your memory only if you need to when you are

    5 answering questions either from the Prosecutor or the

    6 Defence. If you wish to take it out you may now.

    7 A. Thank you.

    8 Q. Could you explain to the court what the ECMM was?

    9 A. Yes, ECMM was a monitoring mission established after

    10 there was made a memorandum of understanding in 1991 and

    11 the purpose was this, monitoring mission was to monitor

    12 the withdrawal of the forces after the first cease-fire

    13 in the first fightings down in the former Yugoslavia.

    14 Q. I believe it was the creation of the Conference on

    15 Security and Co-operation in Europe which was held at

    16 Brindisi in 1991; is that right?

    17 A. That is correct.

    18 Q. As you have said, its purpose was to monitor the

    19 withdrawal of the JNA and its heavy weapons back to

    20 barracks after events in Slovenia; is that right?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. But that role changed, did it not?

    23 A. Yes, because when the tension started in Bosnia, it was

    24 agreed to send the monitoring mission down to Bosnia to

    25 monitor the situation in that area. At that time, that

  125. 1 was before the United Nations Protection Forces went to

    2 that area.

    3 Q. What specifically was the role of the ECMM in, now,

    4 Croatia and Bosnia?

    5 A. Our role was to liaise with the civilian and the

    6 military authorities in that area, trying to make

    7 cease-fire in that area and trying to establish peace

    8 again in that area.

    9 Q. I think you wore a distinctive uniform, did you not?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. If you could wait.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Could you please translate ECMM for us?

    13 MR. CAYLEY: Of course, Mr. President. ECMM stands for

    14 European Community Monitoring Mission. Is that correct,

    15 Major Baggesen?

    16 A. Yes, that is correct.

    17 Q. I asked you whether or not you wore a distinctive

    18 uniform.

    19 A. Yes, we were dressed in white so it was easy for the

    20 parties down there to recognise us and we were wearing a

    21 blue cap and we were wearing the EC symbols on our

    22 shoulders. We were unarmed.

    23 Q. Am I correct in saying that you arrived in Zagreb on

    24 30th March 1993?

    25 A. Yes, that is correct.

  126. 1 Q. I think you were given a briefing of the position on the

    2 ground in Central Bosnia, the disposition of military

    3 forces, the relevant authorities; is that correct?

    4 A. Yes, normally when new monitors arrived to the ECMM

    5 headquarters in Zagreb, we all had a briefing on what

    6 was happening down there. We had a briefing on the

    7 different forces in that area, and we had a briefing on

    8 how to use communication equipment we had.

    9 Q. Where were you going to be stationed in Bosnia?

    10 A. The first day after we arrived to Zagreb, we were told

    11 that I, together with two other Danish monitors, were

    12 going to Zenica to the Regional Centre in Zenica, whose

    13 area of responsibility was the central part of Bosnia.

    14 Q. Were you told who the relative factions, the relevant

    15 factions were in that area of Bosnia?

    16 A. Yes, we were told that the two factions down there were

    17 the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims.

    18 Q. Were you told about their military forces; were they

    19 identified to you?

    20 A. Yes, we were told about HVO and BiH.

    21 Q. Which were which?

    22 A. HVO were the Bosnian Croats and BiH were the Bosnian

    23 Muslims.

    24 Q. Were you told about levels of armament, how well

    25 equipped the two forces were, how well organised they

  127. 1 were?

    2 A. Yes, we were told during the briefing in Zagreb that HVO

    3 forces were better equipped than BiH and we were told

    4 that they had more weapons and more men than BiH.

    5 Q. I would like to show you a diagram, Major Baggesen,

    6 which you in fact produced for me which I think will

    7 explain to the court the structure of the ECMM and where

    8 the Vares parts of it were stationed.

    9 If the witness could be shown this? (Handed).

    10 Major Baggesen, if you would place that on the

    11 ELMO next to you?

    12 Mr. Registrar, what is the exhibit number, please?

    13 THE REGISTRAR: It is number 87.

    14 MR. CAYLEY: Major Baggesen, could you explain to the court

    15 what this structural diagram represents?

    16 A. Yes, I will do that. We had the headquarters of the

    17 ECMM, situated in Zagreb. The headquarters commanded a

    18 lot of regional centres covering the whole area of the

    19 former Yugoslavia, and I will now tell about the

    20 Regional Centre at Zenica where I was ordered to. The

    21 Regional Centre was divided in three co-ordination

    22 centres and at the Regional Centre in Zenica there were

    23 three monitored teams who reported directly to the

    24 headquarters, the Regional Centre in Zenica. One team

    25 called Zulu 1 had an area of responsibility in Zepce,

  128. 1 another team, Zulu 2 had an area of responsibility in

    2 Vares, and Zulu 3 in Kakanj. Then the Regional Centre

    3 had a European Community liaison officer to the UNPROFOR

    4 forces in Kiseljak. This liaison officer was the link

    5 between UNPROFOR and ECMM in Central Bosnia.

    6 Then the Regional Centre commanded three

    7 co-ordination centres and each of those co-ordination

    8 centres had two or three monitored teams who had each

    9 their own area of responsibility. All these teams from

    10 the co-ordination centres were reporting daily to the

    11 co-ordination centre. The co-ordination centre made a

    12 summary of what had happened in that area and reported

    13 to the Regional Centre in Zenica.

    14 Q. So it was very similar to a military command structure?

    15 A. Yes, and one of the reasons is because all the monitors

    16 were experienced officers, so even though it was a civil

    17 organisation, it was manned by officers from the EC

    18 countries and from some of the ECLO countries.

    19 Q. In which of the teams did you serve in your three months

    20 in Bosnia?

    21 A. I served in the teams Zulu 1, Zulu 2, Zulu 3 and V1.

    22 Q. So you were responsible for Zepce, Vares, Kakanj and

    23 Vitez?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Over a three-month period.

  129. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Not all at the same time.

    3 A. No.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: If there is no objection from the Defence,

    5 Mr. President, I would like exhibit 87 admitted into

    6 evidence, please. Am I correct in saying, Major

    7 Baggesen that you arrived in Zenica on 2nd April 1993?

    8 A. Yes, that is correct.

    9 Q. At that time, the Regional Centre in Zenica was headed

    10 by a professional diplomat from France, Ambassador

    11 Jean-Pierre Thebault?

    12 A. That is correct.

    13 Q. Who were the Deputy Head and the Operations Officer at

    14 that time?

    15 A. The Deputy Head was Juan Valentin, who was a Spanish

    16 monitor and the Operations Officer was Dimitrios Dagos

    17 who was a Greek officer.

    18 Q. There is a map next to you. I wonder if the camera can

    19 be brought in on it. I just would like you to show

    20 where Zenica is in relation to various other towns in

    21 Central Bosnia, just so we can all become acquainted

    22 with the area in which you were serving?

    23 A. Yes, Zenica is situated here (indicates) in this area.

    24 Q. Where is Vitez?

    25 A. Vitez is here.

  130. 1 Q. Kiseljak?

    2 A. Kiseljak is south of Zenica, between Zenica and

    3 Sarajevo, down here (indicates).

    4 Q. Can you just put your pointer on Sarajevo. Can you just

    5 identify the municipalities of Busovaca?

    6 A. Busovaca is situated here (indicates).

    7 Q. Can you also identify the municipality of Travnik?

    8 A. Travnik is here (indicates).

    9 Q. Can you take a seat, please, Major Baggesen. Am I right

    10 in saying that the three teams that operated from

    11 Zenica, which was Zulu 1, Zulu 2 and Zulu 3, operated in

    12 all those municipalities?

    13 A. Yes, they did.

    14 Q. When you arrived in Zenica, did you receive a further

    15 briefing from that which you had received in Zagreb?

    16 A. Yes, we had a briefing on what was happening in the

    17 central part of Bosnia. We had a briefing on the two

    18 parties in that area. We were briefed on who was the

    19 Commander of the HVO and who was commanding BiH.

    20 Q. Who were you told was commanding the BiH?

    21 A. We were told that General Hadzihasanovic was commanding

    22 the Third Corps of BiH.

    23 Q. By BiH you mean the Bosnian government forces?

    24 A. Yes, that is correct.

    25 Q. Who were you told was commanding the HVO?

  131. 1 A. Colonel Blaskic.

    2 Q. Did you meet both of these gentlemen while you were

    3 serving in the former Yugoslavia?

    4 A. Yes, I did.

    5 Q. How many times did you meet General Hadzihasanovic?

    6 A. I cannot recall the exact numbers, but I think 10 or 15

    7 times.

    8 Q. How many times did you meet Colonel Blaskic?

    9 A. I think the same, 10 or 15.

    10 Q. Can you look around the court and see if you can see

    11 him?

    12 A. Yes, General Blaskic is sitting over there (indicates).

    13 Q. Thank you. Were the areas for which these commanders

    14 were responsible identified to you by monitors in

    15 Zenica?

    16 A. Yes, during a briefing we were told mostly on what area

    17 they were covering with the forces.

    18 Q. Could you stand up and identify on the opstina map of

    19 Bosnia firstly the area for which General

    20 Hadzihasanovic, you believe, was responsible?

    21 A. We believe he was responsible for the BH forces in

    22 Zenica, in Travnik, part of Vitez, Kakanj, and Zepce,

    23 Zavidovici, Mr.konjic and some of the forces in south of

    24 -- there down in Gornji Vakuf, Fojnica and Kresevo.

    25 Q. Now can you identify on the same map and also recite the

  132. 1 municipalities for the transcript, the municipalities

    2 for which General Blaskic, then Colonel Blaskic, was

    3 responsible?

    4 A. Part of Zenica, Travnik, Vitez, Novi Travnik, Busovaca,

    5 Fojnica, Kresevo, Kiseljak, Visoko, Kakanj and Gornji

    6 Valuf.

    7 Q. Thank you, Major, if you would take a seat. That

    8 information was based on information that had been

    9 gathered over a number of months?

    10 A. Yes, that is correct.

    11 Q. During your time in Bosnia, do you believe that to be

    12 correct from your experiences?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. It is my understanding that the ECMM also chaired an

    15 organisation called the Busovaca Joint Commission?

    16 A. Yes, that is correct.

    17 Q. Can you explain to the court what was the Busovaca Joint

    18 Commission?

    19 A. The Busovaca Joint Commission was a commission made in

    20 the beginning of 1993. It was situated in the village

    21 called Busovaca; that is why it was named the Busovaca

    22 Joint Commission. Later on, before I arrived, the

    23 Busovaca Joint Commission was moved from Busovaca to an

    24 ECMM-rented house in Vitez, close to a British UNPROFOR

    25 battalion. This commission was manned by

  133. 1 representatives from HVO and from BiH and from ECMM.

    2 When I arrived, there were three members from HVO

    3 representatives. The representatives were Mr. Franjo

    4 Nakic, who we were told was the deputy to

    5 Colonel Blaskic and two other senior officers. The

    6 senior representative from BiH were Mr. Merdan, who we

    7 were told was the deputy to General Hadzihasanovic from

    8 the Third Corps, and there was two senior officers from

    9 BiH as well. We were three ECMM monitors and one ECMM

    10 monitor who was chairing the Commission.

    11 Q. What was the function of the Commission?

    12 A. The function was to get the two parts to co-operate and

    13 try to solve problems in this Commission, and we

    14 normally had a meeting every morning where we were

    15 sitting around a green table and discussing what has

    16 happened the last 24 hours. After discussing what had

    17 happened the last 24 hours. We divided into a number of

    18 teams consisting of one representative from BiH --

    19 Q. If you could stop there a moment, Major Baggesen. Can

    20 the witness be shown exhibit 80(6). I have it if you

    21 have to scrabble through a thousand documents down

    22 there. This is a photograph that has been previously

    23 admitted into evidence.

    24 If it could be placed on the ELMO? (Handed).

    25 Do you recognise any of the individuals in that

  134. 1 photograph?

    2 A. Yes, I recognise Colonel Blaskic and I recognise Franjo

    3 Nakic who is sitting beside him.

    4 Q. Again I repeat the question: who was Franjo Nakic?

    5 A. Deputy of Colonel Blaskic.

    6 Q. That is how he represented himself to you?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Thank you very much. You were moving on to explain the

    9 function of the Busovaca Joint Commission. If you could

    10 explain to the court what sort of day-to-day work you

    11 were dealing with. One point: was the Busovaca Joint

    12 Commission the creation of the ECMM?

    13 A. It was an agreement between all three parties to have

    14 this Commission.

    15 Q. Do you know when it was created?

    16 A. In the beginning of 1993.

    17 Q. So if you could explain to the court what your

    18 day-to-day business was concerned with?

    19 A. Our day-to-day business was that we had this meeting

    20 early in the morning where we discussed the incidents

    21 that happened the last 24 hours, and sometimes one party

    22 would have some complaint on what the other parties had

    23 done and we would discuss these things. There were a

    24 lot of rumours we had to investigate, and normally after

    25 we had a meeting, maybe one hour, we would divide it in

  135. 1 three teams, each team with one ECMM monitor, one

    2 representative from HVO and one representative from BiH,

    3 and then we went out to investigate that specific area,

    4 to see what had happened, and we used a lot of time just

    5 investigating rumours.

    6 Q. So it was to build trust between the parties and try and

    7 maintain some sort of peace in Central Bosnia; is that

    8 correct?

    9 A. Yes, that is correct.

    10 Q. You say that you travelled out with the parties. Were

    11 you able to freely travel anywhere you wanted with the

    12 representatives of the HVO and the BiH?

    13 A. Normally we were, but it was sometimes difficult because

    14 there were a lot of checkpoints in the area and

    15 sometimes when we were going to a specific area where we

    16 were told something had happened, sometimes we went into

    17 a checkpoint where we were not allowed to pass.

    18 Q. How did you get around that problem of getting through

    19 checkpoints that you were not allowed to pass?

    20 A. Often we had to return to Vitez, at the hotel Vitez,

    21 where Colonel Blaskic had his headquarters, and

    22 representatives of HVO had to see him to get a written

    23 order so we could pass the checkpoint and have access to

    24 the area.

    25 Q. Who was the representative of the HVO?

  136. 1 A. That depends on who was with that team, but even if it

    2 was Mr. Nakic it was not enough. We often had to have a

    3 written order from Colonel Blaskic.

    4 Q. Did you ever see any of these written orders?

    5 A. Yes, I can remember I saw one.

    6 Q. Do you remember seeing by whom it was signed?

    7 A. I saw Colonel Blaskic's signature on it.

    8 Q. When you had these orders, did you have any problems

    9 getting through the checkpoints?

    10 A. No, we did not.

    11 Q. Did the same apply to get through Bosnian army

    12 checkpoints?

    13 A. I cannot recall that we had problems in that area. We

    14 had a problem later on, but that was in the northern

    15 part of -- north of Zenica, not in that area down there

    16 where the Busovaca Joint Commission operated.

    17 Q. So in the Central Bosnia region you had no problem

    18 travelling through Bosnian army checkpoints?

    19 A. I cannot recall any problems.

    20 Q. Major Baggesen, I would like to move on now to the

    21 subject of military communications. Do you know who

    22 controlled the telephone lines in the central Bosnian

    23 region. When I ask that, you can identify the

    24 municipalities, if you know the answer to the question.

    25 A. I know the answer of a part of your question. I know

  137. 1 that BiH controlled the PTT lines in Zenica.

    2 Q. Can I interrupt; by PTT, you are referring to the

    3 telephone company?

    4 A. Yes, that is correct.

    5 Q. In what was the former Yugoslavia. Continue, please.

    6 A. We knew that BiH were in control of the PTT in Zenica,

    7 and we knew that HVO were in control of the PTT lines in

    8 Vitez, Travnik and Kiseljak area.

    9 Q. How did you know that?

    10 A. We found out because several times we were not able to

    11 have a contact on our landline from our rented house in

    12 Vitez, and I was told by one of our interpreters that it

    13 was a normal procedure when there were no

    14 English-speaking operators at the PTT house in Vitez the

    15 line was closed.

    16 Q. By landline, you have just used another military term.

    17 A. Sorry, the telephone.

    18 Q. The telephone line. Why was it necessary for there to

    19 be English-speaking operators at the telephone company

    20 in Vitez?

    21 A. Obvious, because they were able to listen to our

    22 conversation.

    23 Q. This was told to you by one of your interpreters?

    24 A. Yes, a Croat interpreter.

    25 Q. Did you take any action after you were told this?

  138. 1 A. We already had taken action, because we were not allowed

    2 to speak classified on the telephone, but after this, we

    3 were more careful.

    4 Q. In the Zenica area, I think you have said that the

    5 Bosnian government actually controlled the telephone

    6 lines; is that correct?

    7 A. That is correct.

    8 Q. Did you ever have any problems communicating within the

    9 Zenica municipality?

    10 A. Not inside Zenica but we were normally not able to call

    11 outside Zenica. We could sometimes but the normal

    12 picture was that we were not able to phone out of

    13 Zenica.

    14 Q. Why was that?

    15 A. Because the telephone line between Zenica and the other

    16 areas were closed down.

    17 Q. By whom?

    18 A. We supposed it was HVO.

    19 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that you travelled to a

    20 lot of Bosnian army and HVO military headquarters in

    21 your time in the former Yugoslavia?

    22 A. That is correct.

    23 Q. Did you make observations about the military

    24 communications equipment that were in those

    25 headquarters?

  139. 1 A. Yes, we did and we were especially aware because they

    2 told us that they did not have any radio equipment.

    3 Q. Who told you that?

    4 A. Both sides, so therefore every time when we visited a

    5 military headquarters we used our eyes to see if there

    6 were any evidence that there were communication

    7 equipment in the area.

    8 Q. Specifically talking about HVO headquarters, what

    9 communications equipment, apart from telephones, did you

    10 observe in those headquarters?

    11 A. At some headquarters we saw telefax machines. At some

    12 headquarters we were able to see some radio equipment,

    13 and I cannot remember, we saw radio equipment in a few

    14 of the headquarters, but in some of the other

    15 headquarters we saw antennas. When we could see those

    16 antennas we could conclude there was some radio

    17 equipment in the area.

    18 Q. You have already said that both sides were not open

    19 about their communications equipment which maybe is

    20 understandable for military forces. The HVO, did they

    21 conceal from you the fact that they had communications

    22 equipment?

    23 A. I think they tried to hide it from us. Actually, that

    24 is very normal for a military unit to show what kind of

    25 equipment they have.

  140. 1 Q. To show or not to show?

    2 A. Not to show.

    3 Q. Specifically talking about the hotel Vitez in Vitez, how

    4 many times did you visit that building?

    5 A. I cannot recall the exact numbers, but several times.

    6 Q. You are aware where it is?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Did you see an antenna on that building?

    9 A. Yes, I saw antennas in that area. I did not see

    10 directly radio equipment, but one day I had a visit

    11 there, I was looking through an open door and inside a

    12 room and I saw a man with a microphone and I think he

    13 was speaking in the radio.

    14 Q. As a professional soldier, what was your impression of

    15 what you saw of the HVO communications network?

    16 A. To my opinion, after my experience, I think that you

    17 have radio equipment so you are able to command the

    18 troops.

    19 Q. Do you have any examples of the communications network

    20 actually working?

    21 A. Yes, once I visit a war headquarters, HVO war

    22 headquarters, close to a Bosnian Serb Army front who was

    23 operated. That was north of Travnik.

    24 Q. Why did that indicate to you that the communications

    25 network was working?

  141. 1 A. Because I was able to see this operator who was

    2 operating the radio equipment and I was able to listen

    3 that he had conversation with several other radio

    4 stations.

    5 Q. Did you ever have any examples of your visit being known

    6 about before you arrived in an area by virtue of radio

    7 communication?

    8 A. Yes, normally when we came to an area, especially where

    9 we had to go back to Vitez to pick up a written order

    10 from Colonel Blaskic and when we arrived to the specific

    11 area where we are -- the first time we were not allowed

    12 to pass the checkpoint. After passing the checkpoint

    13 with this written order, it seems like the people we

    14 were going to meet were warned about our visits.

    15 Q. What is the only manner in which these people could have

    16 been warned?

    17 A. By telephone or by radio.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you.

    19 Mr. President, it is 5.30. I am happy to

    20 continue. It is as you wish.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I think we are going to rise now until

    22 tomorrow morning at 10.00. I wish to draw attention,

    23 Mr. Cayley, that you are going rather fast and I am

    24 afraid that the interpreters are having a little

    25 difficulty following, so if you could go a little slower

  142. 1 tomorrow.

    2 MR. CAYLEY: I will, Mr. President.

    3 (5.30 pm)

    4 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)