1 Tuesday, 30th September 1997
2 (10.15 am)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Mr. Registrar, have the
4 accused brought in.
5 (Accused brought in)
6 JUDGE JORDA: Can everyone hear me? Are there no problems?
7 Any problems regarding the hearing. General Blaskic,
8 can you hear me too?
9 MR. BLASKIC: Good morning, your Honours, I hear you well.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning. Very well, in that case we can
11 continue with the hearing of the witness, which started
12 yesterday, and who is planned for three hours, maybe
13 less if we focus on the questions affecting the crux of
14 the matter as Mr. Cayley has been doing. So can we have
15 Captain Tudor Ellis brought in, please, Mr. Registrar.
16 (Witness entered court)
17 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Can you hear me, Captain?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Have you had a good rest, are you feeling fit?
20 A. Very well thank you, yes.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, we can begin then.
22 CAPTAIN TUDOR ELLIS (continued)
23 Examination by MR. CAYLEY (continued)
24 Q. Good morning Mr. President, your Honours, learned
25 counsel. Good morning, Captain Ellis.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. I would just like to very briefly recap where we left
3 off yesterday, go back over what we were speaking about
4 yesterday. I think you had stated at the end of
5 yesterday's hearing that you had come to a checkpoint in
6 the northern area of the town. I wondered if you could
7 stand and pick up the pointer and just indicate to the
8 court the location.
9 A. The checkpoint was in the area of the junction here,
10 just about there. (Indicates).
11 Q. Am I right in saying that the British battalion was
12 actually used to passing another checkpoint in the
13 northern area of town, this checkpoint was not the usual
15 A. You would be correct in saying that, yes.
16 Q. Whereabouts was that checkpoint located?
17 A. That checkpoint was located on the Zenica mountain road,
18 and if you actually follow this road up here, the
19 junction -- there was a checkpoint there manning the
20 junction to the Zenica mountain road there.
21 Q. Could you take a pen and actually mark the location of
22 the checkpoint on this particular day?
23 A. (Witness marks map).
24 Q. If you could mark that "HVO 2". If you could take a
25 seat now, please. From the location of this checkpoint
1 I think you will recall that you said that you saw two
2 squads, two organised military formations of men walking
3 into the centre of town, is that correct?
4 A. That is correct, yes.
5 Q. What were the numbers of these two squads of men
6 approximately as you can remember?
7 A. There were two squads of men, one on either side of the
8 road, the first one was approximately about 10 people
9 and then the second one was approximately 15 people.
10 Q. I think you also stated that there was a number of
11 troops behind the checkpoint that were, as it were,
12 marshalling or organising themselves to go --
13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, all this has already been stated by
14 the witness, I think, at the end of the afternoon
16 MR. CAYLEY: I was just, for the benefit of the court,
17 recalling the testimony of yesterday. We can move
18 straight ahead if you wish, Mr. President. I do not wish
19 to waste any time.
20 JUDGE JORDA: I thank you for the benefit of the judges, but
21 the Tribunal has been informed by the witness, so
22 perhaps we can go ahead. Thank you.
23 MR. CAYLEY: Fine, thank you.
24 Approximately what time was this?
25 A. This would have been at approximately 7.15 in the
2 Q. You stated yesterday that these troops would not
3 actually allow you to pass the checkpoint, so what did
4 you do next?
5 A. I decided to turn around, move back down the bypass road
6 and then come into the town of Vitez from the southern
8 Q. Can you just indicate on the map the road in which you
9 went into the town of Vitez?
10 A. I moved back down this road here. It is not actually
11 shown on this photograph. There is a junction about
12 here, I moved up and then proceeded into the town from
13 the southern end, along the main Vitez road there.
15 Q. If you could remain standing, because this part of your
16 testimony is quite complex. A number of different
17 incidents happened and I will try to make this as clear
18 as possible. What was the first point where you came to
19 a halt in the town, where you actually stopped and
20 looked around?
21 A. I drove into the town, I moved past the garage, which is
22 located here (indicates), and then as I moved in I could
23 hear the noise of heavy firing from the town of Vitez.
24 I could also see smoke rising from the centre of the
25 town. As I moved in, I stopped in the area of the
1 catholic church, which is located here. (Indicates).
2 Q. Could you mark that point "P1"?
3 A. (Witness marks map).
4 Q. Can you describe to the court exactly what you saw, as
5 best you can recollect? I know these events are now
6 some years old.
7 A. I saw a number of things, and they are in no particular
8 order, it was taking the panoramic view in. Starting
9 from the left-hand side of the road as I am facing
10 north, the first thing that I noticed were a number of
11 houses on fire. I remember there being a house on fire
12 behind me and to my left, and then further up the road,
13 just slightly in front of me, on the left-hand side,
14 there was a pavement area in front of a house, and there
15 was a body of a dead civilian, a male of about 50 years
16 old. It appeared that he had been shot in the head. He
17 was lying on the side of the road, on the pavement
18 area. I could see fighting or firing going on down the
19 road. And then, running around to the right-hand side,
20 although a number of the houses were on fire, I remember
21 two specifically, and they were just on the right of
22 where my vehicle was standing, my Warrior was standing.
23 Then the right of those two houses, I looked
24 through the front window and the house that was on fire,
25 there were two bodies in the house and they were
1 sitting, it appeared to be, at a table or a sort of
2 table area, and they were on fire as well, and
3 I remember reporting this on the radio back to our base
5 Q. If the technical staff could bring up a previously
6 admitted exhibit, which is exhibit 100/4, Z1/232, do you
7 recognise that image?
8 A. Yes, that is basically exactly where I had stopped my
9 vehicle and that was the body that I described on the
10 left-hand side of the road and opposite to that, on the
11 other side of the road, would have been the houses on
13 Q. You said, Captain Ellis, that there was an awful lot of
14 firing going on. Could you distinguish the types of
15 firing that you could hear?
16 A. I could discern small arms fire, automatic rifle fire
17 and repetition rifle fire; also a heavier calibre weapon
18 I could hear operating down the road, possibly a heavy
19 machine gun, and I could also hear either mortar rounds
20 being detonated or mortar rounds being fired from
21 further up the road.
22 Q. I think at this point you decided to proceed off the
23 main road, is that correct?
24 A. That is correct. On my right, and it is quite clear on
25 the map, there is a road that runs down to the right
1 past the church, which I will indicate now (indicates).
2 As I was sitting there, a large amount of firing
3 happened behind the houses which were forward and to my
4 right. There was a lot of small arms firing and it was
5 very big in its intensity. I presumed there would have
6 been in that area. My intention was to take my vehicle
7 down that side road to try to get around to the back of
8 those houses, to try to locate the source of that
9 firing, and so I took a right turn and I went to move
10 down the road, leaving my other vehicle on the main road
11 to cover my approach up there.
12 As I moved down, there was a flat bed van, the cab
13 had a flat wooden base to it, actually blocking the
14 road, or blocking my access down that road. It was
15 parked at a slight angle and on the back of that vehicle
16 was a multi-barrelled anti-aircraft weapon of about 20
17 millimetre calibre, and it was stopped and unmanned on
18 that road. There was a small gap on the right-hand side
19 which I tried to manoeuvre my vehicle down and past. As
20 I actually came up to the vehicle, it became apparent
21 that I was not able to get past the vehicle on the road
22 and so I started to try and push the vehicle off so
23 I could move down.
24 As this happened, a group of about four, possibly
25 five HVO soldiers came out from the left-hand side of
1 the access road. On the access road, there is a line of
2 fences running down, wooden fences and I remember these
3 soldiers came through like a side entrance to the houses
4 that are located there (indicates). They were very
5 hostile towards me and they made it apparent, with the
6 gestures of both their weapons and their voices, that
7 they were not happy with me firstly nudging this vehicle
8 to try to get past it and secondly, it appeared that
9 their intent was to actually stop me from running down
10 the road as a whole.
11 Q. Captain Ellis, can you mark the point of this incident
12 on the aerial photograph and mark it as "P2" and then if
13 you take a seat. So that we can move quickly,
14 Mr. Registrar, could the witness be shown exhibit 105,
16 A. (Witness marks map).
17 Q. If that could be placed on the ELMO? Do you recognise
18 that photograph?
19 A. Yes, that is a flat bed in the approximate position that
20 it was parked.
21 Q. That is the anti-aircraft weapon that was blocking your
22 path down this side road, is that correct?
23 A. That is correct, yes.
24 Q. Did this weapon look as if it had been firing?
25 A. I remember seeing empty cases, shell cases on the actual
1 flat bed itself. However, I do not recall seeing empty
2 cases in its vicinity.
3 Q. If we could now return to the map itself, I think
4 because you could not get past this anti-aircraft weapon
5 you actually went back to the main road, is that
7 A. That is correct, I remember reporting this, because
8 there were two of these weapons in the area, and our
9 information cell was very interested in their
10 whereabouts at those times. I reported the fact that a
11 HVO flat bed was in the town of Vitez itself.
12 Q. Had you seen that flat bed with that weapon anywhere
14 A. I had seen it on the main Zenica road that runs down --
15 there was a HVO rest area that they used to use. That
16 is where I have seen it before.
17 Q. So you returned to the main road. Did you proceed on
18 into the town itself?
19 A. Yes, I did. I moved up the main road. Just to indicate
20 that, I moved up from this position here and then
21 I moved up to this area here (indicates).
22 Q. Did anything occur at this point?
23 A. It did, yes. My initial intention for going up here was
24 to try to actually move down this road here. However,
25 as I got to this point here, I stopped my vehicle. The
1 reason I stopped it is that a BiH soldier had run out
2 from the houses on the right-hand side of the road. He
3 was very young, approximately 17 or 18, and very
4 frightened, and he was indicating that Muslims in the
5 town needed help and that the HVO had attacked in the
6 town and, having looked further through him, there was a
7 line on pavement level, sort of basement-type flats and
8 windows that I could see through at pavement level, and
9 I remember seeing a line of frightened faces, civilian
10 faces, women and children, and this man was trying to
11 indicate that these were at risk.
12 So I reported this back to my headquarters, and
13 I would like to make a point here that initially, at
14 this point, because of my conversation at the garage
15 with the commander, I had actually had no reason to
16 believe that it was not the HVO being attacked.
17 However, as I moved around and the incidents that had
18 happened up until this point, I remember at this point
19 changing my mind, and that was significant as such that
20 I actually reported it back, that the HVO were mounting
21 an attack in the town.
22 Q. Can you mark this point as "P3", and for the purposes of
23 the transcript, P3 is where you saw the young frightened
24 Muslim soldier shouting "HVO, HVO" and where you saw the
25 civilians through a basement window.
1 A. (Witness marks map).
2 Q. Am I right in saying now you attempted to turn right
3 again down another side road, and if you could indicate
4 that road to the court?
5 A. Yes, I moved down this road here (indicates), and
6 I remember coming to this cross-roads here and being
7 engaged by small arms fire. At this point I actually
8 had my head out of the turret because it gave a better
9 panoramic view and I remember feeling the bullets go
10 past me and hitting the side of the turret. I got down
11 and then I pushed further on past the junction to move
12 out of the danger area, again trying to get to a point
13 here where I might be in a position to either sweep
14 round and have a look or basically see what was going on
15 on that side of the town.
16 Q. Captain Ellis, can you mark this point as "P4", where
17 you were engaged by machine gunfire?
18 A. (Witness marks map).
19 Q. You have indicated that with a line to the point where
20 you were located.
21 A. I stopped here and then I moved up --
22 MR. CAYLEY: Can I move towards the witness, Mr. President?
23 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, please, Mr. Cayley.
24 MR. HAYMAN: I just would like to express a concern that
25 these markings, particularly in the black area of the
1 photo, are not legible. They are going to be very
2 difficult to figure out in the weeks and months to come
3 after the witness leaves us.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Try to use another system of marking, so
5 that we can use those markings later on more
7 MR. CAYLEY: Can you just mark over these marks? We will do
8 it afterwards, in front of counsel, but for P4, the mark
9 that you have just made, can you just try and make it
10 much more clear. Could you mark over it again with the
11 pen? The others will do.
12 A. (Witness marks map).
13 Q. If you could draw the line. Fine, okay.
14 A. Having been engaged here ...
15 JUDGE JORDA: I should like to take advantage of this
16 occasion to ask whether all the other maps with
17 markings, either of the Defence or the Prosecution,
18 whether these marks will remain, and the Registrar has
19 just told me that there will be difficulty in
20 photocopying them, so what the judges are asking is to
21 have access to these documents later on. I do not have
22 any practical solution to propose.
23 The incident is closed, so please continue,
24 Captain, answering the questions of the Prosecutor.
25 MR. CAYLEY: Just to recall your testimony, at P4, this is
1 where you were engaged by machine gunfire?
2 A. I was engaged by small arms fire here. I actually
3 believe it to be automatic rifle fire. And then I moved
4 up to a point here, at the end of the road, and that is
5 actually where I stopped. As I stopped there, I was
6 engaged by a medium machine gun, and obviously I started
7 looking through my gunsight to see if I could identify
8 the firing point. My gunner and I believed that the
9 point of fire was coming from an area over this way
10 (indicates), and as such we directed most of our looking
11 in that area there.
12 It was whilst looking for this machine gun that
13 was engaging us that I noticed a large amount of troop
14 movement through my gunsight, and it appeared that
15 casualties were being moved into a building, or out of a
16 building, or generally around a building, and that would
17 have been in a line with where I was, and so in a
18 line up to there (indicates). My memory fails me as to
19 exactly the point now that I reported that troop
20 movement being, although I did report it on a grid --
21 Q. When you say a grid, you mean a map reference?
22 A. A map reference, I gave a pinpoint map reference to that
23 troop movement.
24 Q. I think at this point you then turned your vehicle
25 around and went back to the main road, is that correct?
1 A. That is correct. We could not discern where the firing
2 point was and we could not get any further information,
3 so I turned my vehicle around and moved back to the main
4 road. Then I pushed up the main road, where I could
5 hear a lot of heavy firing happening and there was also
6 a large amount of heavy machine gunfire from that area
7 and it seemed like a new outbreak had taken place.
8 So I moved up here (indicates) and stopped at
9 around --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please speak into the
12 A. I moved up to here and I stopped at approximately that
13 area there (indicates).
14 MR. CAYLEY: Captain Ellis, if you can mark it as best you
15 can "P5", and I suggest you use the red pen, because
16 that appears to make a mark that is more discernible.
17 What did you see at this particular point?
18 A. I stopped there and I saw two things of interest that
19 stick out in my mind. The first one was that located
20 approximately 50 metres up the road to my position there
21 was a heavy calibre anti-aircraft weapon firing in the
22 ground roll, directly into a red bricked building on the
23 far side of the junction ahead of me on the right-hand
24 side of the road, and it struck me as being strange that
25 this weapon was actually sustaining fire into this
1 building. There did not appear to be any reason for
2 firing into it, there was no firing back from the
3 building, there was no visible Defence.
4 I reported the fact that there was a heavy calibre
5 weapon firing into this building. I then looked to my
6 left-hand side, because there was a lot of firing
7 happening. At that part of the town of Vitez there is a
8 depth of buildings on the left-hand side of the road,
9 there is more than just the buildings lining the side,
10 and as I looked down and to my left, I saw two groups of
11 HVO soldiers moving down from north to south, so moving
12 from that direction down (indicates).
13 They seemed to be conducting house clearing. One
14 of the groups appeared to have come out of a house and
15 was firing at another house, the next one down, and the
16 other group was making its way as a blob down to the
17 next house down the road. It was at this point that
18 I decided to leave the area. One of the groups was
19 carrying a modern, very modern piece of equipment which
20 I had not expected to see in the area at all. It was
21 something I had not seen before. It was a modern
22 anti-tank weapon that was quite capable of destroying my
23 vehicle. There was no indication that they were about
24 to use it against me; however, because of the situation
25 and the fact we had been engaged previously I decided to
1 extract both my vehicles back down the road.
2 Q. Just to recall quickly, the anti-aircraft weapon that
3 you had seen firing into a house, at what range was it
5 A. The weapon was mounted approximately 50 metres on the
6 other side of the road to the house.
7 Q. What is the normal range of a weapon like that?
8 A. They are designed specifically for air defence. You can
9 expect to hit targets accurately up to about 5.5
11 Q. So its destructive force at 50 metres is absolutely
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What sort of damage would a weapon like that do to
16 A. Firing high explosive rounds, the first one would impact
17 and explode and destroy brickwork. The second one, when
18 firing automatic, would probably go through the same
19 hole that had been made and impact on the inside of the
20 building, creating destruction on the inside.
21 Q. Did there appear to be any defence coming from this
22 building? Was there anybody firing back at this
23 anti-aircraft weapon?
24 A. No, not that I can remember. I remember thinking it
25 strange that a weapon of this nature was firing so
1 heavily into this building, firstly because there was no
2 real visible signs of defence and secondly because
3 ammunition for these particular weapons was short in the
5 Q. The soldiers that you saw, and you say they were
6 clearing houses, did you see any defence coming from
7 those houses? Were these soldiers taking cover, was
8 there any shooting at the soldiers?
9 A. Not that I can recall, no.
10 Q. Indeed, in that entire time that you spent in Vitez, did
11 you see any defence against the action that was going on
12 at all, as far as you can recall?
13 A. I can recall no defence, no co-ordinated action against
14 HVO forces.
15 MR. CAYLEY: You can take a seat now, Captain Ellis.
16 What I suggest, Mr. President, as far as the
17 markings are concerned, in the break Mr. Hayman and I can
18 stand there together with the witness and ensure they
19 are made as clear as possible so we do not waste any
20 time of the court.
21 You stated, Captain Ellis, that after sighting
22 this anti-tank weapon obviously you were concerned it
23 would place you and your crews at risk, so am I right in
24 saying you then returned to the British battalion camp
25 at Stari Bila?
1 A. That is correct, I returned to refuel.
2 Q. I think there you spoke to the watch keeper and
3 explained what had happened, is that correct?
4 A. That is correct, yes.
5 Q. In the operation that you have just seen in Vitez, did
6 you make any estimation about the amount of ammunition
7 that had been used by the HVO to actually conduct this
9 A. There was an enormous amount of ammunition fired, a lot
10 more than I had seen. The only comparable action was in
11 a large-scale conflict between the Bosnian Serbs right
12 up in the north east of Bosnia.
13 Q. Was ammunition in short supply in Central Bosnia amongst
14 the warring factions?
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 Q. And here there was plenty of ammunition to be fired, is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes, there was.
19 Q. What did you think when you saw that level of ammunition
21 A. I believe that to achieve that amount of ammunition in a
22 particular area -- that must have been an orchestrated
23 move to actually gather ammunition into that area.
24 Q. I think at about midday of that day you actually went to
25 the village of Ahmici, is that correct?
1 A. That is correct, yes.
2 Q. If now I could ask the Registrar to place exhibit 50D,
3 please, which is the photographic copy.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
5 microphone, because the booths have a lot of trouble
6 hearing him?
7 MR. CAYLEY: Captain Ellis, could you move the microphones
8 towards you?
9 Captain Ellis, why did you go to Ahmici?
10 A. There were reports that a casualty had been discovered
11 by one of the 9th 12th Lancer call signs. They were the
12 reconnaissance squadron attached to us. They did not
13 have the ability to evacuate her because of the nature
14 of their vehicles and I was to escort an armoured
15 ambulance to the village to pick the casualty up and
16 take her to Travnik hospital.
17 Q. When you arrived in Ahmici, what did you find?
18 A. My initial impression, it was not just Ahmici, it was
19 the Santici area as well, which lies south of Ahmici.
20 There were a lot of houses on fire, there was a lot of
21 destruction, and the one thing that I did notice was the
22 fact that the mosque minaret had been brought to the
23 ground and the mosque itself had been destroyed.
24 Q. Did you actually discover this female casualty in the
1 A. I moved up into the village of Ahmici, I will just
2 indicate on the map. Can you hear in the booths if
3 I speak here? Can I move the microphone over? Is that
4 better? I moved up the main Ahmici road, which runs
5 here, and I met the reconnaissance call sign here and
6 then we moved up this road here to an area approximately
7 there, just before the upper mosque (indicates).
8 Q. What did you discover when you arrived at that point?
9 A. Whilst I was there there was a casualty on the floor,
10 she was on the left-hand side of the road. It was a
11 woman that had been shot. The cavalry call sign that
12 was there, the reconnaissance call sign, had
13 administered first aid to her. She was not in a very
14 good way and I remember her husband was there as well at
15 the time.
16 Q. Could you give a more precise description of her injury?
17 A. I believe she had actually been shot in the head and in
18 the legs.
19 Q. You evacuated her to Travnik hospital?
20 A. That is correct, yes.
21 Q. Do you know if she was a Muslim or a Croat?
22 A. By her garb, I believe her to have been a Muslim.
23 Q. Can you give a brief but broader description of the
24 damage to the village of Ahmici that you saw?
25 A. As I have said, there were a number of houses in the
1 Ahmici and Santici area, Santici being the area there
2 (indicates), south of Ahmici. There were a number of
3 houses on fire and a number of the houses had a lot of
4 bullet pock marks in the actual outer walls of the
5 buildings. They were evidence of RPG, rocket-propelled
6 grenade strikes against walls and there were a few cases
7 of the petal shape that a mortar round would form,
8 causing shrapnel damage to buildings.
9 Q. You say that the mosque had indeed been destroyed and
10 indeed the court has seen photographic evidence of this,
11 so I am not going to show that again, but do you
12 remember at the time forming an opinion about how the
13 minaret had been brought down?
14 A. I did, yes. The minaret itself, looking at its
15 structure, was a very solid building, it was concrete
16 with reinforced steel, and I formed two possible
17 solutions as to how it had been destroyed. The first
18 one was that a reasonably heavy piece of artillery could
19 have engaged it at point blank range. I believe this
20 not to have been the case, because firstly I do not
21 believe there was any artillery in the area capable of
22 achieving damage such as that; secondly, they would have
23 had to hit it, and thirdly, the possible secondary
24 danger to the actual gun crew themselves would have
25 basically meant that firing would have been
2 So I am of the opinion that the mosque was
3 deliberately blown down by placed explosive charges, and
4 it would be in much the same way as you would actually
5 blow a tree down with explosives. You would place a
6 necklace of explosives round the tree or you would bore
7 holes into the tree and place explosives inside. When
8 you blew up the tree it would be lifted up, severed, and
9 sat down. The damage to the mosque when you look at the
10 photographs is the same as that.
11 Q. Did you see any livestock in the area at the time?
12 A. There was livestock, it was dead though.
13 Q. A lot of dead livestock?
14 A. I remember seeing two dogs and a cow.
15 Q. I think if we can now move to the next day, 17th April,
16 in the early morning you went to Vitez or you returned
17 to the town of Vitez, is that correct?
18 A. That is correct, yes.
19 Q. What did you see and hear in the town of Vitez that
21 A. The fires in the buildings themselves had burnt down
22 somewhat, they were still smouldering. It was
23 relatively calm and peaceful, there was the occasional
24 burst of small arms fire, but there was nothing of major
25 interest within the town. However I do recall the sky
1 line around the town; looking both to the left and to
2 the right, I could see burning houses illuminating the
4 Q. Am I right in saying that after your return to the town
5 of Vitez you took the road out towards Ahmici and
6 Santici and that your attention was drawn to a flash of
7 colour on the side of the road, is that correct?
8 A. That is correct, yes.
9 Q. I think you actually preceded up a side road, which if
10 you could just indicate on the aerial photograph, if you
11 can remember the approximate area.
12 A. It was this road here, very early in the morning
13 (indicates). It was light. I pushed down this road and
14 moved up that road there. I cannot remember the exact
15 location of the buildings, but I believe it to have been
16 one of these three here (indicates).
17 Q. So you proceeded left off a side road on the Ahmici
18 Santici road, is that correct?
19 A. It was to the left of the main road, yes.
20 Q. What did you find when you came to a halt?
21 A. There was a house firstly with the front door open that
22 led inside the house. Forward of that, there was a path
23 and then a hedge and then an open field and about ten
24 metres from the open field, there were two bodies.
25 There was a body of a woman, approximately 40 years old
1 and she was appearing to hold on to the body of a child
2 which was about 5, possibly 6 years old. I looked at
3 them, and then I started to look around the area in more
4 detail and I saw a body of a man about 40, maybe 50
5 years old, in civilian clothes, dead on the hedge
6 line of the house.
7 Q. Was there any sign of damage to the house itself?
8 A. There were pock marks on the wall, but there was no fire
10 Q. Did your soldiers form an opinion as to what had
11 happened at this location?
12 A. The opinion that myself and my soldiers formed, bearing
13 in mind we had seen a lot of damage over the last 24
14 hours or so, was that this was a family that had been
15 running away from a house and had been shot down.
16 Q. As best you can, can you mark this location on the map
17 using the red marker? This will be P6 for the purposes
18 of the transcript.
19 A. (Witness marks map).
20 Q. We will check with Mr. Hayman in the break to see that he
21 can clearly see it.
22 I think this is very early in the morning that
23 this sighting occurred. Do you remember approximately
24 what time?
25 A. It was about 6.30 or 7.00.
1 Q. I think, am I right in saying, that at about 6.45 in the
2 morning you moved on to the village of Sivrino Selo,
3 because you had been informed of another casualty; is
4 that correct?
5 A. That is correct, yes.
6 Q. I wonder if you can just flip the aerial photographs
7 over, if that is possible, if the usher could assist,
8 because we need to refer to the map.
9 A. If the usher could.
10 Q. I am sorry to have to make the court staff perform
11 acrobatics in order to deal with the exhibits. I will
12 try and move more quickly.
13 Can you just indicate on the map the location of
14 Sivrino Selo and the location of Vitez?
15 A. Vitez itself is here and Sivrino Selo is here
17 Q. Am I right in saying you had been informed of a casualty
18 at this location?
19 A. That is correct. I had been asked to move up and locate
20 a casualty that had been identified in the area and
21 I was to take him to Travnik hospital.
22 Q. What did you find when you arrived in Sivrino Selo?
23 A. I moved up the track from the Santici Ahmici area and
24 moved into the village itself. When I arrived there was
25 a farm complex on the right-hand side, and at that farm
1 complex there was a family there, about four or five
2 people, and there was a boy of about 14 years old. He
3 was lying on the floor, and he had been shot in the
5 Q. Can you describe the state of these people?
6 A. They were very frightened. As far as I was aware --
7 they were civilians, they were dressed in civilian
8 clothes, and they were very frightened, they were very
10 Q. Did they identify themselves to you as Muslims, or as
11 Croats? Were you aware at the time?
12 A. I believe they were Muslims.
13 Q. If I could show to you exhibits 106 and 107, do you
14 recognise that photograph?
15 A. I do. This actually coupled with the other photograph
16 of the small grey building. If you are looking on the
17 road at the right-hand side, that would be the courtyard
18 that was formed on the right. That building there was
19 the main farm building on the left, and then at the end
20 of the courtyard was that building there (indicates).
21 Q. So these photographs should be looked at together.
22 Captain Ellis, are these the two buildings where you
23 collected the child from?
24 A. They were, yes. However, they were not in that state
25 when I was there, they were whole buildings, complete.
1 Q. What did they look like when you were there?
2 A. They had no real collateral damage at all.
3 MR. CAYLEY: I will make it clear for the purposes of the
4 transcript and for my learned friend Mr. Hayman, these
5 were photographs that were taken by the Office of the
6 Prosecutor, by Mr. Simon Leach, I think, in 1996, so that
7 is just to make that absolutely clear.
8 So these buildings were in perfect order when you
9 went to Sivrino Selo, is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. CAYLEY: If I could apply, with the caveat I have given,
12 for the admission of these photographs 106 and 107 into
13 evidence, please, Mr. President?
14 MR. HAYMAN: No objection, of course, reserving our
15 previously stated position with respect to these
17 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. What is the number, Mr. Registrar?
18 THE REGISTRAR: 106 and 107.
19 MR. CAYLEY: If the usher could assist again with the
20 exhibits, we now need exhibit 56, which is the aerial
21 photograph. Now if we can move ahead to the next day,
22 which is 18th April 1993, in the very early hours of
23 that morning I think you were told by your battalion to
24 rendezvous with a group of Muslim refugees at a factory
25 near to Vitez, is that correct?
1 A. That is correct. The instruction that I had received
2 was that there were a group of approximately 200
3 refugees in the area of the factory to the west of
4 Vitez, and that there were also some coaches in the area
5 that were to take them to the refugee centre. They had
6 not been able to meet with each other and I was to
7 locate both groups, marry them up and then move them on
8 to the centre.
9 Q. Can you indicate on the map the location of this
11 A. Yes. The factory complex is here (indicates). It was
12 very difficult to actually find on the map itself though
13 because it is not actually on the map because it is a
14 defence installation from previous years. So the route
15 that I took to find it was to move up this road here to
16 the actual main factory entrance there (indicates). My
17 initial thoughts were to try and move into the factory
18 to see if the refugees had located themselves there.
19 As I got to the gate itself, there was an old
20 sentry post on the right-hand side and a pull up/pull
21 down barrier across the road that was down. At the time
22 I was actually closed down, which means that my hatch
23 was closed on my vehicle to afford better protection.
24 At night-time, I was not wanting to put my head up, and
25 for this reason, we were using night sights, which gives
1 a very restricted field of vision.
2 I remember moving up to the gate itself, and there
3 was one HVO soldier on the gate, who upon my arrival ran
4 out and started gesturing with his weapon that I was not
5 to go through the gate and so I put my head out of my
6 vehicle. The man was very aggressive, very hostile
7 towards me, and I was not really aware of the situation
8 within the factory itself. Everything I had seen led me
9 to believe that the civilians that are supposed to be
10 meeting could have been in danger in the factory by the
11 nature of this soldier's actions so I got back down into
12 my vehicle and pushed through the gate itself to see if
13 I could actually look for the refugees in the factory
15 I moved into the factory complex and I could not
16 find any, so I turned around, moved out again, and then
17 I moved along this road here (indicates). This took me
18 up to a road that went up to the area here, and the
19 reason that I decided to move up to this area was that
20 I could see a number of houses burning against the
21 skyline . I moved up the road to this village. It
22 would have been one of these two and I moved into the
23 village centre itself from the north.
24 Q. Captain Ellis, what was the name of the village that you
1 A. Donje Veceriska.
2 Q. Just one point of clarification, could you describe the
3 night sky generally that night, what you and your
4 soldiers could see on the horizon?
5 A. Basically on the western side of Vitez, it was night-time
6 and wherever you looked you could make out the pinpoints
7 of fires burning against the night sky.
8 Q. When you got to the village of Donje Veceriska, which
9 you have indicated on the aerial photograph, what did
10 you find there?
11 A. By the time I actually moved into the village, it was
12 dawn and light had broken. I moved into the village
13 from the northern side and when I arrived I found a
14 group of approximately 100 plus civilian refugees
15 standing in the middle of the village.
16 Q. What was the state of these people?
17 A. They were civilians, they were very frightened and
18 I remember that one girl came out from the right-hand
19 side of the crowd. She was about 17 or 18 and she spoke
20 very good English and I got out of my vehicle and I went
21 down to speak to her and I asked her why they were
22 standing there, what the matter was. She said that some
23 soldiers had come to the village, they had shot some of
24 the people, and they had told them to get out of the
25 village and if they were not gone very soon, then they
1 would come back and kill them.
2 Q. Did she identify the soldiers that had done this?
3 A. She said they were HVO soldiers.
4 Q. And the people in the village, to which ethnic group did
5 they belong, did you work that out?
6 A. I believe they were Muslims.
7 Q. Were there any injured people amongst these civilians?
8 A. I was asked to provide first aid to some wounded people
9 that had been shot. I was taken into a house, just to
10 the right-hand side of the road, where there were two
11 people. The first one was a young man of about 18 years
12 of age, and the second one was a woman of about 50 years
13 of age. The man was in civilian clothes, the woman was
14 wearing Muslim garb.
15 Q. Can you describe the injuries of these two people?
16 A. The man had been shot in the chest, the entrance wound
17 was on his chest side and the exit wound was on his
18 back. There was a lot of damage to his back, and
19 I believe that he was not going to live very long. We
20 carried out some very basic first aid and we put him
21 into the back of our vehicle. The woman had been shot
22 in the legs three or four times, and we gave her
23 morphine, we attended to her injuries, and then again
24 put her in the back of my vehicle with the intent to
25 move them to Travnik hospital. I remember radioing back
1 to our base location, explaining the situation on the
2 radio, requesting a further patrol to move up and attend
3 to these people, because they were frantic that I was to
4 take them with them, but I had no means of doing so.
5 I was told that I was not to stay there and I was to
6 move these civilian casualties to Travnik hospital.
7 So I remember, very reluctantly, I moved off to
8 Travnik. I was followed by about three or four cars
9 packed full of people into Travnik, and I left the
10 remainder of these people in the village, although
11 I subsequently understand that another patrol came out
12 and actually met them.
13 Q. I think after this point you actually returned to the
14 village of Sivrino Selo, is that correct?
15 A. That is correct, yes.
16 Q. Can you indicate again on the large map the location of
17 Vitez and the location of Sivrino Selo? If you could do
18 that slowly.
19 A. Vitez is here (indicates).
20 Q. And Sivrino Selo?
21 A. If you look to the east of Vitez, slightly more, you
22 will see Sivrino Selo, to the east of the Zenica
23 mountain road, a distance of approximately two
25 Q. I think this is where you had earlier rescued the little
1 boy from the farm complex, is that correct?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. I think you returned there. What did you observe when
4 you returned to the village of Sivrino Selo on
5 18th April?
6 A. Firstly there was some collateral damage by small arms
7 to the houses themselves, and I also heard a large bang,
8 possibly a mortar round exploding, about 600 metres to
9 the north of my position, on the northern end of the
10 village. I was coming in from the east so it would have
11 been above me on the hillside. I reported the fact that
12 there was mortar fire in the area, and I left one of my
13 call signs at a junction about 300 or 400 metres away
14 from the position where I picked the boy up. I picked
15 the boy up basically in the centre of the village. It
16 was at this location that I actually stopped and
17 I reported my position.
18 When I was there, a group of about two or three
19 Muslim men ran out, wearing civilian clothes, and they
20 were very frightened indeed. They were indicating that
21 something was happening, and I remember looking forward
22 and about 200 or 300 metres on the hillside, there was a
23 line of houses, and the first house on the right-hand
24 side suddenly -- there was a large explosion on its
25 frontage, which created a lot of dust. It did not
1 completely destroy the house, but it was obviously a
2 major hit on the construction of it. I initially
3 thought that it was a mortar round that had hit the
4 house, because of the bang I had heard earlier.
5 About five minutes later, the next house, suddenly
6 a large explosion on its frontage, and the same sort of
7 thing. It was at this point that I believe that it was
8 not a mortar firing. For information, a mortar can be
9 fired at an area 100 metres square. Where the round
10 lands in that area, it cannot be selective. Therefore
11 because two houses had been hit, subsequently to each
12 other, I believed that it was not a mortar firing.
13 I remember trying to look for a firing point of
14 whatever weapon system was firing at me, and I pulled
15 the civilians round to the back of my vehicle and
16 I remember getting out of my turret with a map and
17 I offered them the map, which is similar to the one that
18 the court can see, and asked them to indicate to me
19 where it was that that was firing at us from, and they
20 could not do it, they could not read the map. The next
21 thing I did was offered them a piece of paper and a
22 pencil, in an attempt to get them to draw me what was
23 firing at us, so I knew what it was. They drew
24 something which resembled a mortar, but it was not a
25 particularly good picture, so again I did not have any
1 indication of what it was that was firing at us.
2 I then got back into the turret to carry on
3 looking. As I did so, there was a huge rushing of air
4 noise, a massive whoosh, and I could feel the air being
5 sucked out around me. There was a split second silence,
6 and a tree about five or six metres up the road from me
7 was hit by something. I initially thought I was being
8 engaged by a tank. I still could not see where the
9 firing point was and I ordered my driver to reverse very
10 quickly back down the road and I threw the two people
11 into the back of my vehicle as I did so. As we
12 reversed, another round landed exactly at the point that
13 I had been at. At this point, I believed I was being
14 engaged by a heavy anti-armour weapon of some
16 When we stopped again, my gunner said that he
17 could identify the firing point, and I asked him to give
18 me a target indication as to where the firing point was,
19 to which he did, and I still could not identify myself.
20 Our rules of engagement in Central Bosnia were such that
21 if you could not identify the firing point actually
22 firing then you were not allowed to engage, and so I did
23 not engage on my gunner's say-so that he had seen
24 something, because he could have been mistaken.
25 It was at this point that I saw some movement and
1 I identified the firing point as well, and what was
2 happening was that they were moving the piece of
3 equipment, which I identified as a recoilless gun, into
4 the back of a small light green car. They drove it into
5 what appeared to be a school building. I looked at my
6 map and the only school actually that I could see on the
7 map, because I was rushing things, was the school
8 actually in Ahmici and I gave that as the grid. With
9 hindsight, I know that to be the wrong grid and I was
10 being engaged from the area of the school in Dubravica,
11 and the reason that I know that I was is that I went up
12 there subsequently with Colonel Bob Stewart, who was my
13 commanding officer at the time, to go and negotiate a
14 prisoner release some two days further on and
15 I identified the building as the building I had seen
16 from my gunsight. I can now say that I was engaged from
17 the school at Dubravica.
18 Q. This recoilless gun, if those shells had hit your
19 vehicle, what would have happened?
20 A. The usual calibre of weapon of this nature is 100
21 millimetre, which would have been enough to destroy my
23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, we are moving to 11.25, I can
24 finish within two minutes, or I can pause now. There is
25 only one other incident. I will be very quick about
2 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, please, if you can hurry it up and
3 finish with the last incident and remind him of that
5 MR. CAYLEY: I think after this incident happened, I would
6 just like to clarify one point with you; did you see any
7 soldiers in Sivrino Selo at this time?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was there any resistance of any sort?
10 A. None at all.
11 Q. I think at this time you felt the force of an absolutely
12 massive explosion, is that correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. What did you feel?
15 A. I was in my vehicle we had stopped, we had seen the
16 green car disappear, and I remember feeling this big
17 force of, this shock wave hit me, at the same time a
18 huge bang, a massive explosion. I looked down to where
19 the bang had come from and there was a huge plume of
20 smoke rising from the town of Vitez. I remember at the
21 time we had a patrol in the town who reported that there
22 had been a massive explosion, there were a large amount
23 of casualties and they needed call signs in the town as
24 quickly as possible.
25 Q. How far were you from Vitez at this time?
1 A. I was about two kilometres, again in the village of
2 Sivrino Selo.
3 Q. You went into Vitez. What did you find when you got
5 A. I moved into Vitez, I was not the first call sign there,
6 there were already vehicles in the area, there was a
7 scene of complete chaos, civilians running round in
8 complete hysteria, there were civilian casualties and
9 there was complete devastation to the centre of the
11 Q. If I could ask the technical staff to bring up Z1/246,
12 which is 100/8, previously admitted by Major Thomas, do
13 you recognise that image, Captain Ellis?
14 A. Yes, that is the town of Vitez following the explosion.
15 Q. Am I right in saying that the local civilians were
16 literally scrambling on to your vehicles in order to get
17 out of the area, is that correct?
18 A. They were, yes. They were running from most directions
19 to where the centre of our vehicles were. We were
20 trying to marshall them with our soldiers who were on
21 the ground. I remember getting out the back of my
22 vehicle, shouting at Colonel Martyn Thomas where he
23 wanted me to take these people and he shouted at me
24 Travnik, so we threw as many people as we could in the
25 back of my two vehicles and then moved them to the
1 hospital at Travnik, and my army chaplain was there
2 trying to organise some sort of reception for them.
3 Q. The composition of this group of people, mainly men,
4 mainly women, or children or a mixture?
5 A. It was women and children.
6 Q. Do you know how many people were killed or injured as a
7 result of that bomb?
8 A. I do not know the exact number. I know there were a lot
9 of injuries and a lot of deaths.
10 Q. Can you recall how many people were taken to Travnik
11 from Vitez on that day by the British battalion?
12 A. Again, I do not know the exact number. I personally
13 took about 15 to 20 people.
14 Q. The final question from this part of your testimony;
15 what was your feeling at the time about the purpose of
16 that explosion?
17 A. I could see no tactical reason why that explosion had
18 taken place, and there was just one of shock, that
19 something like that could have happened in what was
20 really a civilian area.
21 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Mr. President, if you wish to break
22 there, I have possibly another 15 minutes of questioning
23 after the break and then I will have finished my
25 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We are going to break and resume
1 in 20 minutes at 11.50.
2 (11.30 am)
3 (A short break)
4 (11.50 am)
5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, you may continue.
6 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Captain Ellis, if we can now just conclude your
8 examination-in-chief with the other significant offence
9 that occurred in your time there, am I right in saying
10 that on 19th April you were tasked to meet a Red Cross
11 convoy going to Zenica from Jelinak, is that right?
12 A. That is correct, yes.
13 Q. If you could stand and just indicate with your pointer
14 exactly what occurred on that particular day, very
16 A. I moved down the main road here (indicates), with the
17 intention of going to the junction there, to RV with an
18 ICRC convoy. What happened is that as I was in the area
19 of Travnik, which is here (indicates), there was a very
20 large articulated truck blocking the road. It had large
21 tree logs on its back, to add it some weight, and it was
22 blocking the road totally. I tried to push the truck
23 out of the road with my vehicle, but it was too heavy
24 for my vehicle to move and I had to actually get to my
25 rendezvous for the convoy and so I moved up and moved
1 back to that junction there (indicates) and then I took
2 a northern route through the village of Loncari and then
3 my intention was to move up to Jelinak and down through
4 Putis and then on to the road again, circumventing the
5 actual truck that was in the road.
6 Q. As you proceeded what did you perceive was actually
7 happening in this area?
8 A. As I moved up, I got to the area of Loncari, which is
9 about a kilometre short of the village of Jelinak, and
10 from that point, I could see a large battle taking place
11 around Jelinak itself. There was artillery fire falling
12 around the area of the village, and there was also --
13 I could hear heavy fighting being conducted. If
14 I looked through my gunsight, I could see very small
15 figures running around in the village itself. Also on
16 my right-hand side, there was a hill running up to a
17 high point which you can actually make out on the map.
18 Moving down in an organised fashion south from the
19 village of Jelinak were HVO forces and they were
20 basically retreating from Jelinak. I remember as well
21 that there were three people actually on the road that
22 I was on -- two people carrying a casualty back down,
23 and they were moving down towards Loncari and then
24 beyond that as well. I pushed forward with my vehicle,
25 still intending to move through, but the fighting was
1 very, very intense in Jelinak and I did not want to move
2 into the village itself, because I felt it could
3 possibly put my troops at risk.
4 So I identified a very small track and I took a
5 route which took me 400 metres to the south of Jelinak,
6 put me back on to the Putis road and then I went back
7 down to the main road and met up with the convoy again.
8 Q. These were HVO soldiers that you saw withdrawing, is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. I think as opposed to Vitez, what you had seen in Vitez,
12 this was actually a military engagement between two
13 different forces, is that correct?
14 A. That is correct. The impression that we had formed at
15 the time -- this is with the benefit of speaking to
16 other people that I was working with -- was that the HVO
17 had initially launched an offensive, the BiH had turned
18 the tide and they were actually fighting and retaking
19 ground which had been taken by the HVO. What I believe
20 I witnessed here was the Muslim forces, the BiH,
21 retaking the village of Jelinak from the HVO.
22 Q. I think on 27th April, if we can move ahead now in time,
23 you were returning from the city of Zenica, is that
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. I think you passed by again the village of Sivrino Selo,
2 which you have referred to earlier in your testimony, is
3 that correct?
4 A. That is correct. I was moving on the mountain road from
5 Zenica --
6 Q. Could you indicate on the map the route that you were
7 taking and the location of Sivrino Selo?
8 A. The mountain road is this red road here that runs south
9 from Zenica down towards Vitez. It is this area here,
10 slightly north from the Sivrino Selo junction
11 (indicates). This is where I was on that particular
13 Q. Can you explain to the court what happened at Sivrino
14 Selo when you arrived there?
15 A. I got to a point in the road where there is a cluster of
16 houses on the right-hand side and there were two large
17 groups of people, possibly between 80 and 100 people,
18 hiding behind these houses. They were very frightened.
19 I had recognised the man who was the father of the 14
20 year old that I had taken to hospital some week or so
21 earlier, and so I stopped my vehicle and I got out of my
22 vehicle and I went down to speak to the man that
23 I recognised. He recognised me. The product of the
24 conversation was that the HVO had moved into Sivrino
25 Selo and attacked the village and they had instructed
1 everyone to get out of the village, or they would be
3 There were groupings -- the people that were there
4 were the people from the village of Sivrino Selo and
5 upwards to Pirici. They were stuck there, and the
6 reason they were stuck is because whenever they tried to
7 move away from the cover of these houses, they were
8 engaged by sniper fire from the eastern side of the
9 road, and if you look at the map, that takes you down to
10 the area of the Dubravica road. That was the area that
11 I believed them to be being engaged from.
12 We firstly tried to identify the firing point, but
13 we could not, and it did become obvious that they were
14 being sniped at, because whenever anyone stepped out,
15 including my soldiers, from behind either my vehicles or
16 the houses, we were shot at with deliberate single
17 shots. So what I did was I moved my vehicles together
18 to form a shield, instructed everyone to move around to
19 the left-hand side of my vehicles, and then we moved
20 south down the road to move them away from the area.
21 When I was driving down the road, we got to a
22 point in the road that provides cover from view, because
23 of rockiness on either side, and the liaison officer,
24 Captain Matthew Douglas Whatley, was moving up the road
25 from the other direction in a Land Rover. He stopped,
1 I got out of my vehicle, explained the situation, and he
2 took the people from there. I drove off. I cannot
3 remember what task I was on and I have to admit, I do
4 not remember the fate of those people or what Captain
5 Douglas Whatley sorted out for them.
6 Q. Were these civilians?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Men, women and children?
9 A. Yes, there was a mixture of men, women and children.
10 Q. Were they Muslims?
11 A. Yes, they were.
12 Q. You formed an armoured wall and the people hid behind
13 your vehicles in order to protect them from sniper fire
14 as they walked down the road, is that correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. I think we can now moved ahead in time to May 1st. You
17 actually went to the village of Jelinak where you had
18 previously seen this battle taking place, where you
19 thought at the time that the Bosnian army were retaking
20 this village, is that correct?
21 A. That is correct, yes.
22 Q. What did you find when you got to the village of
24 A. I went up to Jelinak with Colonel Bob Stewart, and it
25 was there that a rendezvous had been arranged with
1 General Morien, who was the commander of the UN forces.
2 What we did was to move into the village and the first
3 thing I remember hitting me was the smell of death and
4 decay. I moved into the village, we parked our vehicles
5 up, we were purely there to provide an escort for
6 Colonel Stewart whilst he met up with Morien. I got out
7 of my vehicle and there were BiH soldiers sitting
8 around. I went up and I spoke to the soldiers with the
9 aid of an interpreter that was there with us.
10 The crux of the conversation was that the HVO had
11 taken the village in the weeks previous to this and that
12 the BiH had retaken the village and the one impression
13 that I got, having spoken to the soldiers, was that they
14 were particularly angry with the HVO because as far as
15 they were concerned the HVO moved in and butchered their
16 families and their civilian friends. They were out
17 there and they were very angry with the whole situation.
18 They took me to show me some things that they said
19 had been carried out by the HVO, and there were two old
20 fires that were completely burnt out, the ashes were
21 cold, and on top of one fire there was half a body, a
22 torso of a body, that was -- it was burnt, it was
23 browned, it had been roasted over this fire, it was in a
24 state of decay, and then to the right of that, there was
25 another fire and in that fire, or in the remains the
1 fire, there were a pair of boots, and the boots,
2 remarkably, had been untouched by the flames; but
3 sticking out of these boots were -- the burnt flesh was
4 still in the boots and there were just two leg bones
5 sticking out.
6 Then they showed me the house behind where these
7 two remains were and I remember the house, it had a
8 platform, like a veranda at more or less ground level.
9 On the veranda there were bullet holes on the wall and
10 there were bloodstains on the wall and on the floor.
11 Although I did not actually go into the house, I was not
12 involved in any clearance of bodies from the area, I am
13 aware that my platoon sergeant, Sergeant Kujivinsky was,
14 and obviously I had a very close working relationship
15 with my sergeant and I talked to him in great detail
16 about things. It was the same house that he had to go
17 and collect bodies from that had been tortured.
18 Q. Did he say to you whether these bodies that were
19 recovered, whether they were civilians or soldiers?
20 A. They were civilian bodies.
21 Q. Did he say these people had been butchered?
22 A. He said they had been tortured. I am not aware in what
24 Q. How many people were in the basement of this house? How
25 many dead bodies were recovered?
1 A. There were a number, I do not know exactly.
2 Q. Moving on almost finally to the subject of body
3 clearance, I know that the Cheshire Regiment was
4 involved in this rather grisly task that had to be
5 done. Was your platoon involved in the clearance of
6 civilian bodies during this period?
7 A. We were involved in one particular clearance that sticks
8 out in my mind generally.
9 Q. Could you explain to the court that particular incident?
10 A. I believe it was quite well publicised. There was a
11 particular house in the village of upper Ahmici that a
12 family had been found of five or six bodies, a young
13 child and some other bodies that were unrecognisable,
14 and it was my platoon's task to move up there with
15 Colonel Stewart, who was personally in charge of the
16 clearance operation, and my platoon moved out the
17 remains from that house.
18 Q. Was the regiment involved generally in the activity of
19 body clearance?
20 A. The regiment was not, it was specifically my company,
21 which included another two platoons, 1 platoon and 2
22 platoon that were involved in the clearance of bodies
23 from Vitez and the surrounding areas.
24 Q. Do you know approximately how many civilian bodies were
25 recovered from these areas?
1 A. I know that there were 96 bodies recovered.
2 Q. You said in Ahmici that the bodies were unrecognisable.
3 Why was that?
4 A. Because they had been burnt beyond recognition.
5 Q. I think you mentioned to me that many of your soldiers
6 were affected deeply by this exercise, and I wonder if
7 you could briefly explain to the court how people
8 reacted to the sight of all of these dead civilians.
9 A. The general feeling of the whole area, and it was
10 brought out at the body clearance at Ahmici, from the
11 platoon and from the troops as a whole, was one of sheer
12 disgust, and I know that it affected the married men in
13 my platoon a lot more than the single men amongst us.
14 I believe the reason for it, and a close friend of mine
15 who is now a sergeant in the army, who was part of my
16 platoon, who I speak to, the reason that the married
17 people were more affected is because they could relate
18 far more to what they had seen.
19 Q. Is it not the case that almost two years later somebody
20 broke down in your office because of these events?
21 A. That is correct, yes.
22 Q. Captain Ellis, have you ever met General Blaskic?
23 A. Yes, I have.
24 Q. On how many occasions?
25 A. Up to 20 times, 15 perhaps.
1 Q. You were a very junior officer at the time, so you were
2 not involved in any liaison activities. Why did you
3 have occasion to meet General Blaskic?
4 A. The tasking that we were given and it was before the
5 April 16th period and in the month preceding it. We ran
6 a sort of armoured taxi service between locations within
7 our area to provide a protection for commanders to take
8 them to various meetings that were being organised for
9 them to try to create a solution to the problem.
10 Q. You say an armoured taxi service; specifically, to which
11 locations did you take General Blaskic and where did you
12 collect him from? Just as you can remember, as best you
13 can remember.
14 A. There were three main areas that we conducted our
15 operations in, and the first one was in Vitez itself.
16 Within Vitez, I sometimes had occasion to pick him up
17 from the British battalion base at the school, and then
18 take him onwards, either to the school -- the Hotel
19 Vitez in the town of Vitez itself and then the other two
20 places were in Busovaca and in Kiseljak.
21 Q. How many times did you take him to Kiseljak?
22 A. I specifically remember three times.
23 Q. Did you ever collect him in Kiseljak?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. So when you collected him in Kiseljak, he had made his
1 own way there or in fact had been taken by another
2 platoon of the battalion, is that correct?
3 A. My understanding was that he would have already been
4 there. I do not know how he got there. I was
5 responsible for picking him up from there and taking him
6 back to, nine times out of ten, to the Vitez school, the
7 British battalion base.
8 Q. You say you were involved in this activity 15 to 20
9 times. Were there other platoons in the battalion that
10 were also operating this armoured taxi service?
11 A. Yes, there were. There would only ever be one task of
12 this, at most one per day. In my company, there were
13 another two platoons, within the British battalion base,
14 there were another three platoons that could have
15 conducted these operations.
16 Q. What was the time period in which you were operating
17 this taxi service to these locations you have specified?
18 A. It was mid February through to March and then running up
19 to when everything happened in April time.
20 Q. Was he accompanied by individuals when he travelled with
22 A. Yes, he was. I remember that the taskings that we were
23 given were actually formal taskings on tasking sheets.
24 Usually the task was to pick up Blaskic plus one.
25 Usually when we arrived at whatever location, and it was
1 only when it happened away from the school, was that
2 there would be too many people to fit into our
3 vehicles. We had the capacity to lift ten people, and
4 there were too many people to get in, and it got to the
5 point where I refused to take anyone else other than
6 himself and the one.
7 Q. So General Blaskic plus one other individual?
8 A. That was at a point -- sometimes I took more when we
9 first started conducting these tasks.
10 Q. These individuals around him, do you know what
11 function -- what was your feeling at the time as to what
12 function these people had?
13 A. I was of the impression that the majority of them were
14 bodyguards of some description. However, at some point,
15 there were one or two that were able to talk to him on a
16 more work-like level and not as purely orders to
18 Q. So these would have been staff officers, is that your
20 A. Yes, but that was only on a few occasions.
21 Q. I think you described these people to me; what was your
22 description of the manner of these individuals?
23 A. Whenever we picked anyone up, from bodyguard up to
24 Blaskic, they were hostile, aggressive and unfriendly to
25 us. They were very arrogant and the sort of bodyguard
1 grouping were particularly nasty individuals. They were
2 equipped better as well, in their small arms.
3 Q. What were they dressed in? What uniform were they
4 dressed in?
5 A. The majority of the time it was black garb. The
6 bodyguards tended to wear black bomber jackets, on the
7 HVO badges that they wore, there was a lot more gold
8 than usual.
9 Q. How was General Blaskic dressed at this time when you
10 saw him on all these occasions?
11 A. The majority of the time he was dressed in black.
12 However, there were times when he would have a DPM,
13 disruptive pattern material, camouflage-type smock over
14 the top of whatever he was wearing.
15 Q. How did the soldiers feel about operating this taxi
16 service, your soldiers?
17 A. The majority of us -- and this is talking not just of my
18 platoon sergeants, but soldiers out of my platoon and
19 within other companies -- we felt it was a waste of our
20 time, an unnecessary task, and the general feeling was
21 that we were being used for a task that we should not
22 have been used for.
23 Q. Did you ever have occasion to transport a Bosnian army
25 A. I personally did not, although I do know that other
1 platoons did transport Bosnian army commanders.
2 Q. One final area of questioning: what communications
3 systems did the British battalion have in their Warrior
5 A. Every section vehicle, that is every vehicle that was
6 out there, had a VHF radio set, very high frequency
7 radio set, and each command vehicle, and basically mine
8 would be the lowest vehicle that would be equipped,
9 would have a HF, high frequency, radio.
10 Q. From your practical experience from operating in the
11 Lasva Valley, what was the range of your VHF radio?
12 A. It depended totally on the conditions and the location
13 that you were from. There were times when you could not
14 speak to someone 500 metres down the road. There were
15 other times when you could get communications a good 70
16 to 80 kilometres away. It depended where you were and
17 what the weather was like.
18 Q. It depended how well you knew the terrain as well?
19 A. There were obviously places that you knew you could get
20 communications with. Our signals platoon did conduct
21 reconnaissance to find radio black spots. That is the
22 point where you cannot maintain radio communications and
23 obviously these areas were given to us and we tried to
24 send radio communications from the areas that we knew we
25 could get reception.
1 Q. Did you ever manage to obtain VHF radio communications
2 from Kiseljak to Vitez?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Mr. President, that concludes the
5 examination-in-chief of this witness.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.
7 MR. CAYLEY: The two exhibits, I would like to move to have
8 those admitted into evidence. I have actually looked at
9 them myself and you can clearly see the marks. I am
10 quite happy with my learned friend Mr. Hayman in the
11 lunch break to make it even clearer, but it is clear to
12 me. If I could make application to have exhibits 50 and
13 56D admitted into evidence?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, 56D, and I should also remind Mr. Cayley
15 that for the moment there is no decision regarding
16 exhibit 105, which is a photograph.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I also have noted that photograph, 105.
18 Do you want to have it admitted?
19 MR. CAYLEY: If there is no objection from my learned friend
20 Mr. Hayman, I would apply for admission of that into
21 evidence. That is exhibit 105.
22 JUDGE JORDA: No objection?
23 MR. HAYMAN: As to the photos, we have the same position we
24 have stated. As to the two marked maps, if I could have
25 some time during the next break to look at them and
1 satisfy myself they are legible.
2 JUDGE JORDA: We have to be very clear. We always have this
3 problem of exhibits and the admission into evidence.
4 For us as judges, we have to re-examine this decision so
5 that the Defence and the Prosecution should be on a
6 complete footing of equality. The Defence considered it
7 necessary to raise the question of the re-examination of
8 the decision of 30th July. We have frozen for the
9 moment all decisions regarding the exhibits when they
10 are identified by the witness during the
12 In this connection, I wish to ask the Prosecution,
13 we are still waiting for your reactions before taking a
14 final decision. Are you able of giving us your
16 MR. CAYLEY: If I could briefly confer with my colleagues,
17 Mr. President? (Pause).
18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley?
19 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have discussed the matter with
20 my colleagues and I understand as soon as this session
21 of evidence is complete this week, we will be filing our
22 response shortly thereafter.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I should like us to reach
24 agreement as soon as possible regarding the admission of
25 exhibits into evidence.
1 The direct has been completed and as far as
2 I understand, Mr. Hayman is going to continue with the
3 cross-examination. Mr. Hayman, the floor is yours.
4 Cross-examined by MR. HAYMAN
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. Captain Ellis, we will be
6 referring to maps at various times; if you would like to
7 remain standing or if you would like to be seated when
8 we are not looking at a map, I leave that to you -- of
9 course, under the supervision of the court. Can you
10 tell us roughly what period of time in terms of months
11 did you spend in the Vitez area, that is based in Vitez?
12 A. Approximately about four months out of the six that
13 I was in the former republic of Yugoslavia.
14 Q. Is that microphone on?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. In the course of that time, did you become
17 familiar with any specific units within either the army
18 of BiH or the HVO?
19 A. The only specifics were the fact that the BiH were as a
20 whole and every now and then it had a spin-off and the
21 Mujahedin used to work on their side and on the HVO
22 side, the only spin-off was the HOS as a total grouping.
23 Q. How did you become familiar with the HOS?
24 A. The HOS we could recognise by the fact that they were
25 usually garbed in black. They were the far right wing
1 element. When we saw them, they gave us Nazi salutes
2 and whenever I had occasion to speak to them or dismount
3 and get close to them, they had badges that recognise
4 them as HOS, with "HOS" written on those badges.
5 Q. They wore an insignia that said HOS?
6 A. Yes, they did.
7 Q. Did you become familiar in the course of your four
8 months in the Vitez area with where the HVO and army of
9 BiH headquarters, for example, were, in the region?
10 A. Not in any great detail, no.
11 Q. Did you know where the army of BiH headquarters was in
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. Did you know during your tour whether there was an army
15 of BiH headquarters in Vitez?
16 A. I was not aware of it, no.
17 JUDGE JORDA: (Not translated).
18 MR. HAYMAN: No translation, your Honour.
19 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, sorry.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Sit down please, Captain.
21 MR. HAYMAN: Did you learn during your tour whether there was
22 an army of BiH headquarters in Stari Vitez?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Did you come to learn during your tour of a distinction
25 between the territory or area of Vitez town and Stari
2 A. I was not aware of a distinction between the two. The
3 majority of us used to refer to the town as Vitez and
4 there was no real distinction drawn.
5 Q. So as far as you were concerned during the tour, there
6 was basically one town of Vitez?
7 A. That is correct, yes.
8 Q. You said that you sensed tensions in the Lasva Valley
9 between Croats and Muslims rising in the period from
10 February to mid April 1993, correct?
11 A. That is correct. There was actually some fighting in
12 the February, and that was resolved towards the
13 beginning of March and basically March just saw a
14 parallel of tension, there was an air of tension.
15 Q. Did you learn of any specific events that either you
16 believed or you were briefed by your colleagues, events
17 that contributed or may have contributed to this
18 increase in tensions?
19 A. Although not aware at the time of specific events that
20 could have contributed to tensions then, there were some
21 things, with hindsight, that may be -- you may be able
22 to attribute those things to.
23 Q. Did you learn, for example, of the kidnapping of a HVO
24 commander in Zenica on roughly 15th April and the
25 execution of four of his bodyguards?
1 A. I was aware of the kidnapping. However, I was not aware
2 of the killing of his bodyguards.
3 Q. Were there any other kidnappings or attempted
4 assassinations of HVO or related persons that you
5 learned about in that time period, early April, mid
7 A. Yes, there was.
8 Q. Who was that?
9 A. To the best of my understanding, there were four HVO,
10 I believe them to have been staff officers, and
11 I remember attending a meeting in Novi Travnik with
12 members of both sides to try to come to a solution about
13 the release of these staff officers.
14 Q. Was that a very serious incident to the HVO?
15 A. I believe it was, yes.
16 Q. Did you learn at any time in April 1993 of an attempted
17 assassination on Darko Kraljevic?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you learn of any request for UNPROFOR assistance or
20 any UNPROFOR involvement in connection with that
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now let me turn your attention to 16th April 1993. You
24 described in your testimony visiting a site near Vitez
25 which was that of a garage.
1 A. That is correct, yes.
2 Q. Did you know whether this garage was publicly or
3 privately owned?
4 A. I do not know.
5 Q. Did you have any idea, if it was privately owned,
6 whether it was Croat or Muslim owned?
7 A. I do not know.
8 Q. Was it a gas station, part of the garage, an actual gas
10 A. It was, yes. There was next to it a storage yard for
11 trucks as well.
12 Q. Then you describe proceeding to a checkpoint roughly in
13 the area of the Dubravica school, is that correct?
14 A. No, it was not Dubravica school.
15 Q. Let me rephrase the question. The checkpoint was at the
16 junction of the bypass road and the road into Vitez, is
17 that right?
18 A. That is correct, although it was set slightly back down
19 the Vitez road.
20 Q. Do you recall what type of uniforms the 15 or so
21 soldiers that you saw at that checkpoint were wearing?
22 A. They were garbed in -- it was not the usual
23 camouflage-type uniforms, it was a light green-type
25 Q. You have you have testified that you also saw some other
1 soldiers in the area.
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. Specifically, some behind the checkpoint and others
4 walking on the road?
5 A. That is correct, yes.
6 Q. Have you used any materials to refresh your recollection
7 as to the presence or activities of these other
8 soldiers, other than the 15 whom you have described at
9 the checkpoint?
10 A. The only materials that I have used were some years ago,
11 they were company radio logs and to the best of my
12 memory I do not believe there was reference to that
13 particular checkpoint or the groupings there within
14 those logs. I actually remember it in my mind without
15 it being jogged.
16 Q. Do you remember when you were interviewed in 1995 by
17 representatives of the Prosecutor's office?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you asked in that interview what HVO soldiers you
20 saw on the 16th April 1993?
21 A. I could have been, yes.
22 Q. Have you had occasion to review your statement from that
24 A. I have reread it, yes.
25 Q. In that statement, do you mention any HVO soldiers in or
1 around this checkpoint we are discussing, other than the
3 A. I do not remember whether I said so or not.
4 Q. Then you returned on the bypass road and attempted to
5 enter Vitez from a north or north-westerly direction, is
6 that right?
7 A. It would be, yes.
8 Q. Who else was with you at this point?
9 A. I had one other vehicle with me. That vehicle was
10 commanded by Corporal Ian McDonald.
11 Q. So Lieutenant Colonel Thomas was not with you?
12 A. Not at that point, no.
13 Q. Do you know, at that point in time, was he out in the
14 field or had he already returned to base?
15 A. My understanding of the situation was that I was the
16 first patrol in the area. I have to say here that I do
17 not think the seriousness of the situation had been
18 appreciated in my battalion operations room. When
19 I returned to base, I believe it was then that a proper
20 deployment took place.
21 Q. So you believe Lieutenant Colonel Thomas deployed after
22 you returned to base?
23 A. I do not know exactly when he deployed.
24 Q. But in any event he was not in your company when you
25 were in the field on your first excursion on the morning
1 of April 16th 1993?
2 A. No, he was not.
3 Q. You said from the area of the line that you approached
4 Vitez, having returned on the bypass road and started in
5 again to Vitez from the north/north west, you saw a
7 A. That is correct, on the right-hand side of the road
8 there is a catholic church.
9 Q. You said, I believe, you saw some three houses burning
10 in the area of the church?
11 A. I specifically remember three houses burning. You could
12 say they were in the area of the church. There were two
13 houses approximately 30 metres up the road from the
14 church and one on the other side of the road to those.
15 There were other houses on fire, I remember there being
16 a general scene of destruction, but they are the three
17 that I specifically remember.
18 Q. Was the church on the south or the north side of the
20 A. If you are looking at it, it would be on the side
21 I would be coming in on, so before the junction, on the
22 right-hand side.
23 Q. On the right hand, on the south or south west side?
24 A. If you look at the aerial photograph, you can identify
25 quite clearly the church. It is quite easy to look at.
1 Q. The three or so houses that you recall seeing burning,
2 when you saw them, did you think they were Croat or
3 Muslim houses?
4 A. I was not really aware. I presumed, because they were
5 in the area, that they could have been Croat houses.
6 Q. Is that what you told the interviewers who interviewed
7 you in April 1995, that they were Croat houses?
8 A. I do not know.
9 Q. Do you recall that from reviewing your statement in
10 preparation for your testimony?
11 A. No, I do not.
12 Q. Do you recall whether those three or so houses that you
13 saw burning had two-sided roofs or four-sided roofs?
14 A. I do not recall from the day, no.
15 Q. Do you remember the total number of houses that you saw
16 burning in that area, the area of the catholic church?
17 A. In that area, there were those three definitely.
18 However, there were a lot of houses on fire further down
19 the road, so I could not be specific and say there were
20 a certain number around the church. The whole of the
21 centre of the town, basically, starting from the houses
22 I could see here, running down into the centre of the
23 town, further away from the church, there were more
24 houses on fire there.
25 MR. HAYMAN: I need to put up a map and transparency, your
1 Honour. I have not been able to do this in advance
2 because there has been no break since the conclusion of
3 the direct testimony, so if I may take a moment and do
4 that, and I would ask the assistance of the Registrar in
5 placing exhibit 56 on the easel. (Pause).
6 Why do you not stand, Captain, and I would like to
7 mark -- to ask you to make some markings on this
8 transparency which I have placed on top of exhibit 56
9 for the record. First, let me make a few markings so
10 that we can in the future replace the transparency on
11 the map in the same way. (Pause).
12 Captain, would you agree that I have marked the
13 map in such -- I have marked the transparency in such a
14 way to describe the relationship and indicate the
15 relationship of the transparency to the map?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you locate, perhaps with the pointer initially, on
18 this map, the catholic church?
19 A. (indicates).
20 Q. Indicating just to the right of the point "P" on this
21 map, correct?
22 A. That is correct, yes.
23 Q. Can you point out the three houses that you recall that
24 were burning near the church?
25 A. (Indicates). Those there.
1 Q. Indicating across the street from "P"?
2 A. And then those ones --
3 Q. Is that right, Captain, you are indicating one or more
4 houses directly across the street from location "P"?
5 A. That is correct, and then I could not say exactly which
6 house it is on this aerial photograph on the left-hand
8 Q. Could you mark with a star, perhaps something like this
9 (indicates), in recognisable and legible size, the
10 houses that you saw burning near the catholic church?
11 A. Would it be easier if I draw a line with a point away
12 from it?
13 Q. For our purposes, if you could do a star.
14 A. It will be very subjective.
15 Q. You mean it is too big? The star will obscure? Can you
16 make it a little larger, please?
17 A. (Witness marks map): that frontage there represents the
18 area that the other house would have been.
19 Q. The other house that what?
20 A. On the opposite side of the street to those two houses
21 there was a house on fire. I cannot identify it from
22 the photograph.
23 Q. So there was one on the left-hand side of the street and
24 two on the right?
25 A. That I specifically remember, yes.
1 Q. Within that block from "P" to "H", were there other
2 houses on fire that you recall?
3 A. I recall other houses being on fire. I cannot say which
4 ones they were. There was smoke coming from that area.
5 Q. Do you recall any other specific houses on fire prior to
6 point "H" on exhibit 56?
7 A. No, I do not, not specifically.
8 Q. You were at this point, point "P" on exhibit 56, at
9 approximately what time on the morning of 16th April?
10 A. It was about -- is the microphone okay?
11 Q. If you could speak into it. Certainly I will move that
12 one for you. .
13 A. Is that okay? It would have been at approximately 0700
14 hours in the morning.
15 Q. About 7.00 am?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. You recall that from memory, or you recall that from
18 when you had the opportunity to review the radio log
19 some time ago?
20 A. I recall it being very early in the morning, because it
21 was dark when I was initially woken up, and that was
22 confirmed when I looked at the company radio logs.
23 Q. Did you see any soldiers or any armed persons of any
24 affiliation from this vantage point?
25 A. Initially, no.
1 Q. Just to understand clearly without -- duplicating your
2 testimony as little as possible, you then went down the
3 road that branches to the right, looking at point "P"?
4 A. That is correct, yes.
5 Q. That is where you encountered the weapon mounted on some
6 kind of a flat bed truck or van?
7 A. It was, yes.
8 Q. Then you returned to "P" and moved up to point "H", is
9 that right?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. When you got to point "H", could you see any houses
13 A. I believe that some of the houses may have been on
14 fire. I cannot specifically remember houses burning.
15 Some of them -- there was a lot of smoke, I cannot
16 specifically say that there were houses on fire in that
18 Q. If there were -- are you able to tell us anything about,
19 for example, whether if there were houses on fire it was
20 relatively few in number?
21 A. I would say there were houses on fire. I could not
22 identify which ones they would be. In the whole of the
23 area between "A", running up slightly north of "H",
24 about 30 per cent of those houses would have been on
1 Q. About 30 per cent of the houses around "H", or from "P"
2 to "H" and beyond?
3 A. Running up from the whole area there (indicates), the
4 whole of the street was a scene from a battle and
5 I cannot be more specific.
6 Q. The whole of the street from "P" up to what point? How
7 far up were you able to observe this?
8 A. The maximum point that I observed on the day was when
9 I saw the flat bed or the heavy calibre gun, to the
10 north of Vitez, firing across the road into a red brick
12 Q. Can you identify that point on this exhibit?
13 A. I cannot identify it exactly, although I was in the area
14 of -- between "F" and "H" there. That is where I was
15 and I could see it firing up and north of me.
16 Q. When you saw the -- was it an antiaircraft type of
18 A. I believe it to have been.
19 Q. It is up around between "F" and "O" and you were roughly
20 between "H" and "F"?
21 A. That is correct, yes.
22 Q. If I drew a different type of star between "O" and "F",
23 would that approximate the location of this weapon when
24 you saw it?
25 A. I would prefer if you drew a circle.
1 Q. All right. Would that be roughly here between "O" and
3 A. I will draw it.
4 Q. Not too small, so it will be visible. So the circle you
5 have drawn indicates roughly the location of the
6 anti-aircraft weapon?
7 A. Very approximately, yes.
8 Q. But your recollection also is that there were some
9 number of houses, approximately 30 per cent, between "P"
10 and "F" that were on fire?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Could you draw a shading along the road from "P" to "F",
13 and what I would ask is that you shade it in roughly
14 that fashion, indicating that approximately 30 per cent
15 of the houses along that stretch were burning when you
16 saw them on the morning of 16th April 1993. Thank you.
17 You then went down another track, correct?
18 A. That is correct, yes.
19 Q. Roughly from point "H"?
20 A. Just north of "H", yes.
21 Q. Is that where you encountered an Army of BiH soldier?
22 A. It was slightly before that junction and there was one
24 Q. Slightly below the junction marked "H"?
25 A. It was around that area there.
1 Q. Was it -- did you encounter this soldier in the street,
2 or where?
3 A. He ran out from the houses into the street specifically
4 to get my attention.
5 Q. Do you recall, did he run out from a house to your right
6 or left?
7 A. From my right.
8 Q. Can you circle in green the rough area where this
9 soldier came from when he came to speak with you?
10 A. (Witness marks map).
11 Q. You have drawn a green circle, I am going to reinforce
12 it. Is it still accurate, my having done so, indicating
13 the approximate area where this soldier came from to
14 speak with you?
15 A. It is accurate as far as my memory serves me.
16 Q. This soldier, this Army of BiH soldier who you
17 encountered, did he have a weapon with him?
18 A. I believe he did, yes.
19 Q. Do you recall what kind of weapon it was?
20 A. It was a rifle, an AK variant.
21 Q. Is that a semi-automatic, or automatic?
22 A. It can be fired semi-automatically or automatically. It
23 is the general weapon that was utilised in the area.
24 There was nothing strange about it.
25 Q. Similar to an AK 47?
1 A. Similar, yes.
2 Q. After you spoke to him, did he return to the area from
3 whence he had come?
4 A. I believe he did, yes.
5 Q. Then, after encountering this soldier, then you went
6 down the track to the right, which is slightly above
7 point "H", correct?
8 A. Correct, yes.
9 Q. Was it in that area that you had a view of an area on
10 the other side of the stadium or the track circle at
11 which you saw what you described as casualties being
13 A. I was actually at that point there (indicates).
14 Q. Indicating the dead end of the track going to the right
15 from. "H" junction?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. You could see to the north some activity, correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Tell us, with as much specificity as you can, what you
21 A. I saw a building that I believe to have fronted on to a
22 road. Around the building, there were figures moving
23 around, 20 perhaps, and I remember a number of them were
24 carrying either stretchers or bodies without stretchers
25 between them and I reported the fact that there was
1 activity, and I cannot remember the grid that I gave for
2 the map reference, and that casualties were being moved
3 around that area.
4 Q. Are you able today to identify the building where you
5 saw these casualties being moved around?
6 A. I have looked on this photograph before and I cannot
7 identify specifically where those casualties were being
8 moved. However, we believe that we were being engaged
9 from these three houses here (indicates).
10 Q. Indicating three or four structures to the right of the
11 stadium track.
12 A. That is correct. Anything I would have seen would have
13 been in that area there.
14 Q. So are you saying that that was the limit of your visual
15 observation capability, or that that is where you were
16 focusing your attention so that is where you would have
17 seen this activity?
18 A. That was where we were focusing our attention. We were
19 obviously looking left and right of that point. If you
20 want an exact grid, I gave a grid on the radio.
21 Q. Do you remember, roughly how many persons or stretchers
22 with a person in it did you see being moved around?
23 A. I have a recollection of two, three. There was a lot of
25 Q. Do you know from your observations on that morning to
1 what group or army that location or those casualties
3 A. No.
4 Q. Could you put an orange circle around those houses,
5 please, the houses where you saw these casualties being
6 moved around?
7 A. I did not see anyone being moved around those houses.
8 Q. You did not see stretchers, people carrying stretchers?
9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, your objection?
10 MR. CAYLEY: If I could object at this point, the witness did
11 not say that those houses were where he saw casualties
12 being moved, he said those were the houses where he was
13 being engaged by machine gunfire. I am perfectly happy
14 for that to be placed on that transparency, but I think
15 his testimony should be precise and not what Defence
16 counsel might wish it to be.
17 A. If you want exact clarification, I was being engaged by
18 machine gunfire, I believe that the source of the fire
19 was those three houses. I was concentrating my efforts
20 for looking at those three houses. Beyond either side
21 of those houses, that is what I saw, and I cannot be
22 more specific.
23 MR. HAYMAN: Beyond or beside those houses, is that what you
24 are saying?
25 A. No, beyond, maybe running down to there, maybe running
1 up to there. I cannot be more specific.
2 Q. You are saying within some range around those houses
3 which could vary as far as "B" to the upright of exhibit
4 56, or over as far as the road junction behind these
5 four houses and indeed --
6 JUDGE JORDA: The witness has answered your question,
7 Mr. Hayman. Please take your headphones. The witness
8 has answered your question, Mr. Hayman. You are not a
9 magistrate judge, you can try and establish any
10 contradiction, but I think that the witness has answered
11 that question.
12 Having said that, it is more or less the time for
13 our lunch break, so we are going to have that lunch
14 break now and resume at 2.45 in the afternoon.
15 (1.00 pm)
16 (Adjourned until 2.45 pm)
1 (2.45 pm)
2 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Please have the
3 accused brought in.
4 (Accused brought in)
5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, be so kind as to continue.
6 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Captain Ellis, let me ask one more question about
8 the Muslim soldier that you saw in the area of the green
9 circle on the transparency, which is currently on
10 exhibit 56. Did you see what structure he came out of
11 when he came out to meet you?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. Did you see what kind of structure? Was it a private
14 home, or did it appear to be a private home?
15 A. I did not see where he came out of.
16 Q. Were there any structures other than private homes in
17 the strip of road from which he came?
18 A. I cannot remember.
19 Q. Returning to the issue of these casualties you saw being
20 moved on the morning of 16th April, were you familiar
21 with the location which was a school and which was in
22 the general southerly direction, that is to the right of
23 the school circular track on exhibit 56?
24 A. I was aware there was a school, I was not aware of its
25 exact location. I did not really have any work done up
1 there at all.
2 Q. Did you see these casualties being moved in the area of
3 the school?
4 A. I could not say.
5 Q. When you were interviewed in 1995, did you tell the
6 investigators that you saw persons who had been injured
7 being taken into the school?
8 A. I cannot remember whether I did or whether I did not.
9 Q. For the record, I have placed exhibit D26, another
10 overhead transparency, on top of exhibit 56 and the
11 transparency which was already on exhibit 56.
12 Captain, if I could ask you to rise, and I note
13 for the record that exhibit D26 has been aligned with
14 exhibit 56, particularly around the legend, in the
15 manner which is appropriate.
16 Would you agree, Captain, that the red markings on
17 this exhibit D26 roughly form a trapezoid or square
18 around a certain area or portion of Vitez, referring to
19 the red exterior lines?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Would you agree that wherever, whatever location it was
22 that you saw these two casualties being moved, it was
23 somewhere outside of the perimeter, the red drawn in
24 perimeter, on exhibit D26?
25 A. I could not say. I have already stated I do not know
1 exactly where those casualties were.
2 Q. You said it was --
3 MR. CAYLEY: Objection, Mr. President. Mr. Hayman goes on and
4 on and on with this line of questioning. You stated
5 before the break that the witness had answered the
6 question, he seems to be ignoring your ruling. I would
7 ask that counsel move on.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Before pronouncing myself, I would like
9 Mr. Hayman to continue with one or two questions, but
10 I would not like him to continue beyond the answer of
11 the witness.
12 Where are you leading to? These red marks, do
13 they come from the marks made by the Captain? At whose
14 request? Are they the marks made at your request,
15 Mr. Cayley?
16 MR. CAYLEY: These marks, your Honour, were made by
17 Mr. Sefkija Djidic, who was a witness for the
18 Prosecution. They outline lines of confrontation which
19 existed over a 11 month period, which frankly this
20 witness can make no comment about at all. Clearly
21 Mr. Hayman must be allowed to ask his questions, but
22 I would simply make that point to the court. The
23 transcript indicates that, that Mr. Djidic was talking
24 about a period that lasted nearly a year when he was
25 referring to these marks.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Mr. Hayman, that is the question I wanted
2 to know, from where the markings come from. So they do
3 not come from this witness himself, so you are making a
4 police confrontation. Where do you want to lead to?
5 What is your objective?
6 MR. HAYMAN: The issue, your Honour, is whether these two
7 casualties that were seen by this witness, were they HVO
8 casualties or were they other casualties, Army of BiH or
9 some civilian. He has been unable to tell us where he
10 saw them, so the question then is, were they within the
11 area of Stari Vitez, which we maintain commander Djidic
12 said was represented by these rough confrontation lines
13 from 16th April forward, so my only question of the
14 witness, if I may, is whether he saw these inside or
15 outside and I think in two or three questions we can
16 settle it and move on.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. It is the President who is
18 intervening now.
19 Captain, this is a very clear question now. Can
20 you answer this question with yes or no, that will be
21 the only question in this context? It is the President
22 who is asking you. Have you understood the strategy of
23 the Defence, which is quite legitimate? What the judges
24 cannot permit is a confrontation with a witness who is
25 no longer here and can no longer express himself. So we
1 have had several questions on the same issue. There
2 were two victims. Can you answer the question the
3 Defence put to you? So please go ahead. That is the
4 only question you are going to be asked on this matter.
5 A. I cannot say on that photograph where --
6 JUDGE JORDA: So it is over, Mr. Hayman. Please proceed to
7 another question. The witness cannot answer that
9 MR. HAYMAN: I will move on, your Honour, but I simply note,
10 his position at the time he stated he made his
11 observation is at the dead end of this street, at the
12 confrontation line. If I can ask him whether it was
13 more than ten feet in front of him --
14 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, you are using a judicial system
15 which I am beginning to familiarise myself with after
16 all, but this system is being applied to professional
17 judges today. You have asked a question, the witness
18 cannot answer it for you. We have clearly said just
19 now, what was your objective? All this is down in the
20 transcript and the judges will deduce from that what
21 they will deduce. So you cannot ask the witness to say
22 more than he can. If you find that the witness is in
23 contradiction with his own statements and with the
24 statements of a previous witness, you can establish
25 that, but for the moment, I think it was legitimate of
1 you to ask that question. We did not prevent you from
2 putting that question, we just wanted you to be more
3 specific. The witness answered the question and now
4 I think you have to go on to another question.
5 You have any objection, Mr. Cayley?
6 MR. CAYLEY: I will be very brief, Mr. President. Mr. Hayman
7 has just stated that the witness said he was at a point
8 near to the confrontation line. That is not the case.
9 He did not say he was near to the confrontation line.
10 That is an interpretation that Mr. Hayman has drawn from
11 placing that foil on to the aerial photograph. I just
12 wanted to make the transcript clear, I have no further
13 observations to make.
14 JUDGE JORDA: I have the impression that you are imagining
15 as if the judges were not listening. Fortunately, these
16 judges are listening, and are following you. I assure
17 you that we are following and you must have confidence
18 in us. Please go ahead and ask another question.
19 MR. HAYMAN: After you returned from the end of the track we
20 have been discussing -- which was your location,
21 correct, the end of the track?
22 A. I have to point out that what you just indicated there
23 as my position is not what I said earlier, but I was at
24 the end of a track there, yes.
25 Q. After you left the end of a track, you went back to the
1 main road represented by the "O", "P" and "H" points,
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. You came to a location where HVO soldiers were firing
5 some type of a gun into a red brick building, is that
7 A. I did not come to that location, I came to a position
8 about 50 metres short of the position they were firing
9 the weapon from.
10 Q. You came to a location where you could observe this
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. In the vicinity, did you observe any other armed
14 persons, other than the HVO soldiers who were around
15 this gun?
16 A. Yes, I did. I observed two groups of HVO soldiers to my
17 immediate left, as I have already said.
18 Q. While you were in the area of "O", "P" and "H", did you
19 observe any other armed individuals?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you observe any persons armed who you believed to be
22 Muslims, other than the one individual you have already
23 described within the green circle during your expedition
24 to Vitez on the morning of the 16th?
25 A. Not as far as my memory serves me.
1 Q. When you were interviewed in 1995, did you make the
2 statement, page 2, first partial paragraph for counsel's
3 assistance, and this is on the morning of 16th April
5 "I could see quite a bit of fighting going on
6 between the Muslims and HVO."
7 Do you remember making that statement?
8 A. I do not remember making that statement.
9 Q. Is it a true statement?
10 A. I would say that possibly the terminology I used was
11 slightly wrong in the respect that I saw a lot of
13 Q. Do you remember granting me an interview earlier this
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Did you tell me in that interview that you saw two or
17 three Muslims in mixed uniform engaged in conflict with
18 the HVO?
19 A. I do not remember saying that. However, if I said
20 Muslims, I might not have necessarily been referring to
22 Q. Did you say that you recognised at least one of them as
23 having an AK type of weapon?
24 A. I do not remember saying that, no.
25 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if you heard a tape
1 of that portion of your interview with me?
2 A. It possibly could do.
3 MR. HAYMAN: Perhaps during the next break, your Honour, we
4 could do that.
5 JUDGE JORDA: What tape are you talking of, a tape of the
6 written statement? What element are you referring to,
7 Mr. Hayman?
8 MR. HAYMAN: A tape of my interview with the witness, which
9 occurred on Friday, April 7th 1997.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Any objection on the part of the Prosecutor?
11 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, it is a fact, as you know, that
12 Mr. Hayman has spoken to a number of the British
13 witnesses and in the course of interviewing those
14 witnesses he used a taped cassette. I am aware that a
15 number of those witnesses have requested the right to
16 actually receive a copy of that cassette and, to date,
17 Mr. Hayman has not actually provided those cassettes to
18 those witnesses. I think it is only fair that the
19 witness be allowed to actually hear the tape recording
20 of the conversation that took place between Mr. Hayman
21 and himself prior to actually giving evidence on those
22 facts in the court, otherwise it does rather have a
23 smell of an ambush about it. That is the only comment
24 that I would make.
25 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, in that case, you are not opposed to the
1 proposal, but I would like to consult my colleagues,
2 because this is a question of principle, and that is to
3 see up to what point a witness should be confronted with
4 the statement he made, either to the Prosecution two
5 years ago, or the Defence a year ago, in the search for
6 the truth through what is said by the witness. I wish
7 to consult my colleagues, as this is a point of
8 principle. (Pause).
9 It is an issue of principle, that is why we have
10 taken our time, because it may arise again for other
11 witnesses. As you know, as has been said repeatedly,
12 what interests the Trial Chamber is what the witness
13 says now, today. Still, second point, the Trial Chamber
14 is aware that today the Defence, tomorrow the
15 Prosecution, may wish to draw some advantage from any
16 discrepancy between what has been said by the witness.
17 Thirdly, the Trial Chamber does not wish to spend
18 too much time, because one has to listen to the tape and
19 all that, this is very complicated, and I am not sure
20 that we will reach the truth, because that is the prime
21 concern of the judges, to establish the truth.
22 My conclusion is as follows: Mr. Hayman, you have a
23 written statement of the witness, I suppose?
24 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, one from the Prosecution and one that
25 I took.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. You are going to show the witness
2 on the monitor the passage that is in contradiction with
3 what he is saying now and the Trial Chamber will ask the
4 witness whether he needs a little time to reflect upon
5 it so that he is not ambushed, as has been said, and
6 denounced by the Defence. Do you have this statement?
7 Please underline the phrases that you consider to be
8 important, show them to the witness. The witness will
9 have time to think about it; if not, he can answer
10 straight away and then we will proceed. Go ahead,
12 MR. HAYMAN: If I may approach the witness, your Honour?
13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, of course.
14 Mr. Cayley, you can approach the witness too. Put
15 it on the ELMO, please, so that the Trial Chamber can
16 see too. Can the interpreters -- sorry. (Pause).
17 Mr. Hayman, what exactly does the question
18 regarding the contradiction refer to? Please proceed.
19 MR. HAYMAN: Captain, I had asked you whether you saw any
20 armed Muslims in or not in uniform during your visit to
21 Vitez on the morning of 16th April, and in answering
22 that question, is it of assistance for you to see and
23 review the sentence highlighted in your prior statement
24 from April 1995, which reads:
25 "I could see quite a bit of fighting going on
1 between the Muslims and HVO."
2 A. I have already said that I identified one Muslim with a
3 rifle. Now, if my memory serves me, the fact of my
4 memory, which is that I cannot remember seeing
5 fighting. However, my opinion would be that the amount
6 of small arms fire that I could hear, and the obvious
7 offensives that the HVO were launching, if anyone did
8 have rifles then they would fight back. I do not
9 disagree that I have said that there, but at the moment
10 my memory does not serve me to say "yes, I saw
12 Q. Did you see any other armed Muslims or persons you
13 believed to be armed Muslims other than the one you have
14 described in the area of the green circle on the
16 A. Not that I can remember, no.
17 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, you can put that to the side.
18 I will move on, your Honour.
19 Shortly after observing the firing of this weapon
20 into the red brick building, I take it you left and went
21 back to your base?
22 A. I returned and refuelled and went back to my base from
23 there for further tasking.
24 Q. I take it if there was some type of conflict between
25 armed persons going on you did not stay to see the
1 resolution, is that right?
2 A. I have said what I saw in that morning.
3 Q. Did you see any conclusion of the assault on the red
4 brick building? Did you see the building collapse or
5 something of that sort?
6 A. I did not see it collapse, no.
7 Q. I am going to remove the top transparency, D26, and ask
8 you to mark on the transparency which is on exhibit 56,
9 in black, the location of any bodies that you saw during
10 your visit to Vitez on the morning of 16th April 1993.
11 Do you understand the question?
12 A. Yes, although the actual location of those bodies could
13 only be precise to a matter of some 10 or 20 metres.
14 Q. I am providing you with a black pen and I would ask if
15 you could mark in black circles the location of any
16 bodies you saw on your visit and if it is more than one
17 perhaps you can tell us, whether it is two or three or
19 A. I would much prefer to mark the area that I saw bodies
20 in rather than make a precise record of where I am going
21 to put people now. If that is the case, people might
22 say "it was actually 5 metres down the road".
23 Q. Of course, this is not a hugely detailed map. If you
24 could do the best you can and where you have
25 uncertainty, please, you can state it.
1 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if we can just clarify if the
2 witness is going to mark the individual bodies or if he
3 marks the area? What he is trying to do is tell the
4 truth about what he saw that day and I think it is only
5 proper he should give what he feels is an accurate
6 account of events.
7 JUDGE JORDA: The witness is under oath, Mr. Hayman, and he
8 should be allowed to say -- I repeat, the witness is
9 under oath and he cannot assert things of which he is
10 not certain because of his oath, and on an aerial photo,
11 to indicate a place where a woman was wounded in the leg
12 is something extremely difficult to do. Therefore all
13 he can do, I think, is to answer as best as he can.
14 So please go on, Captain. Can you indicate as
15 closely as possible the place where you saw that body?
16 A. This area here, as I previously marked, is the area that
17 I described. I saw one dead body on the left-hand side
18 of the road and that body has been identified by a
19 photograph. On the other side of the road there were
20 two burning buildings. Two of the bodies were in those
21 buildings and the area there is there.
22 MR. HAYMAN: So the large circle around "P" represents
23 approximately three bodies?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Any others?
1 A. Not that I saw in the town of Vitez.
2 Q. When you returned to camp, you were debriefed by the
3 watch keeper?
4 A. I believe it was the watch keeper, although it might
5 have been the battalion operations officer at the time.
6 It was the guy in charge of the Ops Room.
7 Q. Was that individual taking notes?
8 A. I do not believe he was, no.
9 Q. Does the watch keeper keep a watch keeper's log?
10 A. Yes, he would have done.
11 Q. Was that the reason he was debriefing you, if you know?
12 A. No, it was common practice for whenever a patrol
13 returned to camp location, firstly to report, yes, you
14 were back; secondly, to report anything of interest that
15 might have happened and obviously with the situation
16 I wanted to make a full report in person.
17 Q. Let me turn your attention to 16th April when you went
18 back out from the base in the direction of the village
19 of Ahmici?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That was at midday on the 16th, was it?
22 A. It would have been around midday, I could not say
24 Q. Do you know where the Lancer unit that you said had been
25 on reconnaissance, where they had been prior to your
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did they brief you when you met them in Ahmici as to
4 where they had been?
5 A. No.
6 Q. If the Registrar, your Honour, could assist, we are
7 going to switch maps and overlays at this time, placing
8 exhibit 50 on the easel, with an overhead transparency
9 on top of it which has been prealigned with the
10 exhibit. (Pause). I believe you said you drove up the
11 main road from the Vitez Busovaca road, up the Ahmici
12 road, to roughly the area of the white clearing, whether
13 it is a trapezoid, whatever, where you met the Lancers?
14 A. I met one vehicle at that location.
15 Q. With them you went on up to the location marked, or near
16 the location marked, as the upper Ahmici mosque?
17 A. I would not say I went near there. I drove up the
18 road. My memory does not serve me exactly correctly as
19 to exactly how far up that road I went.
20 Q. On your drive up first of all, did you see any burning
22 A. I cannot recall seeing specific burning houses, although
23 in the area there were a number of houses on fire. When
24 I say "the area", I mean going down to Santici some
25 houses were ablaze.
1 Q. In Ahmici, do you recall, were the houses that were
2 burning in a particular area, on one side of the road,
3 on the other side of the road?
4 A. I do not remember.
5 Q. Would you have radioed in where you saw burning houses?
6 Would that be recorded in the radio log?
7 A. No, because there were too many houses burning to say
8 "yes, that house, that house, that house".
9 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that when you were
10 interviewed in April 1995, you said, and it is page 2,
11 middle of the page:
12 "When I turned off the Busovaca Vitez road coming
13 into Ahmici, I saw houses burning to my left."
14 Does that refresh your recollection as to what you
15 saw burning on that occasion?
16 A. There very probably could have been houses burning to my
17 left, yes.
18 Q. Do you have a recollection of that being the case?
19 A. Not necessarily only on the left. I have a recollection
20 that a lot of houses were on fire and very probably some
21 houses on the left would have been on fire.
22 MR. CAYLEY: I am objecting at this point, Mr. President.
23 Mr. Hayman is pursuing this line of questioning. I think
24 the witness has made the position very clear. What he
25 is saying now may not be in exact concurrence with the
1 statement he made two years ago, but we are talking
2 about events that happened over four years, in fact
3 nearly five years ago. He is saying, to the best of his
4 ability, that there were a large number of houses on
5 fire in the area. He cannot be more specific than that,
6 so I would ask that counsel move on with his
8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, what is your response to the
9 objection of the Prosecutor? Is it essential for you to
10 contradict the witness regarding this aspect of his
11 climb towards Ahmici?
12 MR. HAYMAN: I am not trying to contradict him, I am trying
13 to refresh his memory and assist him, because I do think
14 it is important that the court, having the opportunity
15 to get a snapshot of what was the situation in Ahmici at
16 midday on April 16th, the day it is alleged the village
17 was attacked by the HVO, what was happening and what had
18 happened in that village. Was the whole village on
19 fire? Was it focused in certain areas? Where were the
20 burning houses? Where were the bodies? That is what
21 I am trying to do, I am trying to help the witness in
22 that regard. I have asked one question attempting to
23 refresh his recollection, and I do not think the
24 objection should be sustained.
25 JUDGE JORDA: Objection overruled.
1 Captain, try and answer as clearly and
2 definitively as possible this question so that Mr. Hayman
3 does not come back to it. Mr. Hayman is not trying to
4 contradict you, but simply to know what exactly you are
5 saying regarding what you saw when you were climbing
6 towards Ahmici on 16th April around midday, I think.
7 Was everything on fire, were there just several houses
8 burning? If you cannot remember you can simply say
9 "I can no longer remember".
10 A. Not every single house in the area was on fire. The
11 whole of that area, and I include Santici as part of the
12 area, there were a number of houses burning, quite a
13 large number of houses burning. Not every house, and
14 I could not be more specific than that.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Mr. Hayman, we have heard the
16 answer to your question, will you go on to your next
18 MR. HAYMAN: Did you see any casualties in Ahmici? Did you
19 see any corpses in Ahmici?
20 A. I did not personally see any corpses in Ahmici when
21 I was there, no.
22 Q. While you were there at midday on the 16th, did anyone
23 else report to you that they had seen a corpse?
24 A. Not to me directly, although I understand that a
25 Cheshire platoon had already been into the village.
1 I would not like to comment further on what they saw.
2 Q. In your platoon, the group you were commanding in Ahmici
3 on the 16th, did anyone report to you that they had seen
4 any dead bodies?
5 A. Not in my platoon at that particular time, no.
6 MR. HAYMAN: One moment, your Honour. (Pause). How long did
7 you spend in Ahmici, that is off of the main road,
8 either on the Ahmici road or off the road in Ahmici?
9 A. I do not know exactly how long I spent. I went up
10 there, I met the casualty that was on the road,
11 administered first aid, put him in the back of the
12 vehicle and moved off, I do not know how long that took.
13 Q. Was it closer to an hour than three hours, or less than
14 an hour? Can you give us an estimate, if you are
15 comfortable doing that?
16 A. I would not like to say. Time goes quickly, time goes
17 slowly when you are busy, involved.
18 Q. Well, were you there the rest of the afternoon?
19 A. No, I was not there for the rest of the afternoon.
20 Q. Is it safe to say by mid afternoon you had left?
21 A. I probably had done, yes.
22 Q. Within Ahmici itself, other than to assist the wounded
23 woman, did you go into any homes?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Other than to assist and evacuate the wounded woman, did
1 you leave the main Ahmici road?
2 A. Not at that time, no.
3 Q. When you left Ahmici on 16th April, did you believe that
4 a massacre of upwards of 100 persons had occurred in
5 Ahmici, based on what you had seen?
6 A. I believed that -- I would not like to answer that,
8 Q. Well I --
9 A. Okay, the facts of the matter were that that village had
10 been attacked, and the result of that was a lot of
11 burning houses, and damage to houses. What I saw --
12 I did not see any bodies. I would not like to say
13 whether a massacre had taken place or not.
14 Q. Did you see any soldiers engaged in any kind of fighting
15 while you were there?
16 A. Not when I was there. There were sporadic bursts of
17 small arms.
18 Q. Was that pretty common in the whole area?
19 A. For that time, yes.
20 Q. When you got back, did you make any written report of
21 what you had observed in Ahmici?
22 A. No.
23 Q. On 17th April 1993, you visited Santici, and you have
24 told us of what you found there.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The house where you found these bodies, do you know, was
2 it among the first houses up from the road, or were
3 there other houses between it and the road, the main
4 Vitez Busovaca road?
5 A. The village itself was really spread out. It was set
6 about 150 metres back from the road. There would have
7 been houses dotted around in front of it, but not a
8 street as we would know it.
9 Q. Also on 17th April you went to Sivrino Selo to evacuate
10 an injured boy; do you recall that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was that around 6.45 in the morning?
13 A. I believe it was.
14 Q. Was there significant damage to the village when you
15 visited on that occasion; that is, were houses burning,
16 or had they been destroyed?
17 A. No, not that I could actually see.
18 Q. Do you know whether Sivrino Selo was a mixed village, or
19 a village of predominantly one ethnic group or another?
20 A. I believe it was predominantly Muslim and then there was
21 a small Croat element running down to the road.
22 Q. Did you see any BH army elements in the village when you
24 A. Not that I remember, no.
25 Q. How far into the village did you go?
1 A. Map reading at the time was very difficult. I would not
2 like to say to the exact extent how far I went in, but
3 I must have been -- I do not think I had gone halfway
4 into the village.
5 Q. Less than halfway?
6 A. I gave an exact grid on the radio at the time and
7 I remember I gave an exact grid.
8 Q. Would that be in the radio log?
9 A. It would be in a company radio log, yes, and that was
10 exact in that it was done on my satellite navigation
11 system, which was the only time it worked for my time
12 out there, which is the only reason I remember it.
13 Q. What was your call sign in the company radio log?
14 A. It would have been Romeo Three Zero, or Romeo Three Zero
16 Q. Is that call sign specific to your Warrior?
17 A. Officially. My official call sign is Romeo Three Zero
18 Alpha. My Warrior call sign, the vehicle, would be
19 Romeo Three Zero. If I was not in that vehicle, someone
20 who was sending a radio message from that vehicle could
21 refer to themselves as Romeo Three Zero. However, for
22 easiness sake, and because we all knew each other's
23 voices, there were times when I would call myself purely
24 Romeo Three Zero. The majority of occasions for entry,
25 anyone with Romeo Three Zero or Alpha would have been
1 myself. However, there could have been times where
2 Romeo Three Zero would have been someone transmitting
3 from my vehicle when I was not there. Is that clear?
4 Q. Thank you. Let me direct your attention to 18th April.
5 You visited Donje Veceriska?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Was that around 3.25 am?
8 A. I went up into that area at the time, yes.
9 Q. Did you see any fighting in the area of Donje Veceriska
10 when you visited it?
11 A. I did not actually go into the village itself at all.
12 I was actually slightly south. If you remember, I said
13 I could see burning houses in the evening time.
14 I believe I said that before.
15 Q. From your vantage point, could you see any fighting
16 between combatants or between soldiers and civilians?
17 A. Not that I could see, no.
18 Q. Did you see any soldiers at all in the village, from
19 where you could see?
20 A. No, I could not.
21 Q. Could you tell us how many houses you saw on fire?
22 A. There were a good number. I would not like to estimate
23 that. Quite a few.
24 Q. Was it all the houses in the village?
25 A. I would not like to say whether it was or it was not.
1 Q. Because you do not remember, or at the time you were not
2 able to make a sufficient observation to tell?
3 A. There were a lot of houses on fire. There could have
4 been houses on fire that I did not see.
5 Q. So you could not tell?
6 A. Could not tell.
7 Q. On 18th April, you also went back to Sivrino Selo,
9 A. Correct, yes.
10 Q. Was that around 1815 hours?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You have described a recoilless gun whose location you
13 ultimately pinpointed. Was that -- the soldiers that
14 were operating and moving that gun, could you tell what
15 type of uniforms they were wearing?
16 A. Not from that range. However -- no, I could not, not
17 from that range.
18 Q. Did you have some kind of enhanced viewer in the nature
19 of a telescope or a --
20 A. I had a gunsight.
21 Q. That had a magnifying capability?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Were you able to tell whether the soldiers in possession
24 of that gun were HOS soldiers wearing black uniforms?
25 A. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe they were
1 wearing black, dark uniforms. At the time that is
2 exactly what I thought.
3 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that today?
4 A. The fact they were wearing black uniforms?
5 Q. Have you obtained any information since you made the
6 observation that causes you to doubt your observation
8 A. The only information actually strengthens that opinion
9 and that was talk of the fact that there is a HOS unit
10 at the school.
11 Q. You saw the gun loaded into a vehicle and then taken to
12 the Dubravica school, correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. You knew the Dubravica school to be what?
15 A. I did not know what it was at the time.
16 Q. Did you later learn what it was?
17 A. I believed it was a Bosnian Croat.
18 Q. Bosnian Croat what?
19 A. Location.
20 Q. What particular unit did you believe it to be a location
22 A. I believe that within that location, some of the troops
23 were HOS.
24 Q. Did you believe that location to be a HOS headquarters?
25 A. I might have done at the time. I do not have a
1 recollection of that now.
2 Q. Does it at all refresh your recollection to hear this
3 sentence from your statement in 1995, page 3, second
4 full paragraph, for counsel's benefit:
5 "I could see them pack the gun into the rear of a
6 light green car and drive to which I believed to be the
7 HOS headquarters."
8 A. Yes, and I said that statement with the benefit of
9 hindsight. As I have outlined before, my initial
10 thoughts were that it had gone to another school. As
11 I subsequently returned to that location, I then
12 understood it to be something else.
13 Q. But you believe it to be true, as you sit here today,
14 that statement?
15 A. I consider the fact that there were HOS manning that and
16 that there were HOS at that location. I could not say
17 whether they were the sole people or not, but that was
18 my belief.
19 Q. Do you still believe that the Dubravica school was a HOS
20 headquarters, or headquarters of HOS?
21 A. I do not know whether it was a headquarters or not, no.
22 Q. Do you recall making that statement in your interview in
24 A. I do not, no. I do not remember making that statement.
25 Q. Very well. On 19th April, you went to Jelinak.
1 A. That is correct, yes.
2 Q. Or close to it.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was that early in the morning around 8.00 am?
5 A. It would have been around that time, yes.
6 Q. You said you saw certain soldiers retreating -- is it
7 down a hill or up a hill?
8 A. There was the side of a hill that ran up right from the
9 road and they were basically moving back in a line at
10 right angles to a road. They were not retreating up or
11 down it, retreating across it.
12 Q. Across a hill?
13 A. They were not going across any hill, they were moving
14 across a slope.
15 Q. How many wounded soldiers did you see in that group?
16 A. In the group that was actually on the side of the hill
17 there, I do not recall seeing wounded soldiers.
18 However, I do recall seeing a wounded soldier being
19 carried down the road towards me.
20 Q. What unit or units were there?
21 A. I believe they were HVO.
22 Q. Is that based on their uniforms or insignias?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. After you left the Jelinak and Loncari area, did you
25 visit the site of a former HVO checkpoint in the Merdani
1 Kacuni area?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. You knew this from prior visits that it had been a HVO
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that on the main road from Busovaca to Kiseljak?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In what state did you find that checkpoint on the
9 morning of April 19th 1993?
10 A. It was burnt out.
11 Q. Physically burned?
12 A. It was burnt out. It was not on fire, but it was burnt.
13 Q. Was it manned by HVO soldiers?
14 A. Not that I could see, no.
15 Q. Was it manned by other soldiers?
16 A. I do not remember seeing any soldiers.
17 Q. Did you also visit the area of Poculica on 19th April?
18 A. I would have to refresh my memory from a map.
19 Q. You would have to refresh your memory from map?
20 A. A map. I cannot remember where Poculica is.
21 Q. Let me ask another question. We can look at a map if
22 you like, but do you recall seeing some tanks in the
23 area of the road near Poculica on or about 19th April
25 A. If Poculica is on the mountain road between Vitez and
1 Zenica, and I will confirm that with a map, rather than
2 say, "yes, it is".
3 Q. So stipulated, unless we need to show the witness a
5 MR. CAYLEY: I am sorry, can you translate that from American
6 for me?
7 MR. HAYMAN: We would stipulate that Poculica is on the
8 mountain road to Zenica.
9 MR. CAYLEY: You mean a formal admission by the Prosecution?
10 No, can the witness look at a map, please.
11 MR. HAYMAN: Certainly. Perhaps exhibit 29 would be the
12 best, if the Registrar could assist? I do not know that
13 we need to put it on the easel, but perhaps you could
14 look at it quickly and satisfy yourself if Poculica is
15 the location you have in mind when I am raising these
17 A. Looking at the map, I would not actually like to say it
18 was Poculica. It was possibly further north.
19 I remember seeing them, they were on a very tight bend
20 that runs to the top of the hill to the left.
21 Q. But you recall somewhere well up the mountain road
22 between Vitez and Travnik you came to a checkpoint,
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. A BiH Army checkpoint?
1 A. I would not actually call it a checkpoint. I came
2 across a tank in the middle of the road, yes.
3 Q. Very well. In fact were there three tanks?
4 A. There were three tanks in total.
5 Q. One of them was a T-55?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Two of them were T-34s?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. You knew at the time or learned that they were part of
10 the 341st Tank Brigade of the ABiH?
11 A. They were that brigade.
12 Q. They were the entire brigade?
13 A. Yes, strange as it sounds.
14 Q. How did you learn that?
15 A. Because having spoken and reported the incident to our
16 information cell, he informed me, yes, that is the
17 grouping known as that particular unit.
18 Q. Did you know, did you ever see the HVO in the
19 Lasva Valley in possession of any tanks during your
21 A. Not the HVO, no.
22 Q. On 1st May, you went back to Jelinak, or perhaps went
23 into Jelinak for the first time?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. With Colonel Stewart and General Morien?
1 A. I initially went with Colonel Stewart and General Morien
2 arrived afterwards.
3 Q. You had a conversation with certain BiH soldiers?
4 A. That is correct, yes.
5 Q. Did they tell you what HVO forces or units were involved
6 in the fighting in that area?
7 A. I cannot remember now whether they did or not.
8 Q. When they related these horrible events to you, did they
9 say whether they had observed them or they had heard
10 them second-hand from someone else?
11 A. I cannot remember.
12 Q. Did you have any basis to verify from what you saw who
13 exactly had done what to whom?
14 A. The impression that I formed, and it was an impression,
15 was that they were telling the truth.
16 Q. Other than your own abilities in that regard, general
17 abilities, did you have any specific evidence or basis
18 from which to determine who had actually done what to
19 whom in Jelinak, in terms of the burned bodies and so
21 A. Could I confirm dates? This was on the 20th?
22 Q. This was on 1st May when you went with Colonel Stewart
23 and later met up with General Morien?
24 A. When did I initially go up there?
25 Q. I believe on 19th April you went to the Loncari area and
1 saw the retreating HVO troops carrying their wounded?
2 A. Apart from what I felt at the time, and that was that
3 they were telling the truth. I had no other reason to
4 think otherwise.
5 Q. Is that your complete answer to my question?
6 A. I believe they were telling the truth. I cannot think
7 of anything at the moment as to why I might change that
9 Q. But you cannot articulate any basis one way or the
10 other, is that right, for being able to verify or not
11 being able to verify exactly who had done what to whom
12 in respect of the village of Jelinak with respect to
13 burned bodies and other atrocities?
14 A. I could not personally say that.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?
16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the only point I am going to make
17 is that the witness has already answered the question.
18 He bases it on the fact that he thought these Bosnian
19 soldiers were telling the truth; he cannot say anything
20 more than that.
21 JUDGE JORDA: That is exact. Proceed please, Mr. Hayman, to
22 another question.
23 MR. HAYMAN: I will. I agree he said that in his last
25 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.
1 MR. HAYMAN: You described transporting Tihomir Blaskic from
2 time to time up to mid April 1993, is that right?
3 A. It would have been around that time-frame.
4 Q. In February, March and up to the middle of April 1993,
5 is that right?
6 A. Yes, it possibly could have been after, but I certainly
7 did before that time as well.
8 Q. Were the purpose of these transports to take him to
9 meetings organised by international organisations?
10 A. The official reason for the purpose of these transports
11 was, yes, to take Blaskic to meetings, to try and broker
12 agreements amongst different factions. However, as
13 I have also said, the feeling of the company as a whole,
14 and it was not just myself, was that we were being used
15 not just to take him to meetings, but I remember at
16 least on one occasion when he requested that I drop him
17 off at a place different to where I was supposed to have
18 been taking him, and when I initially refused he got
19 very angry and so I dropped him off where he had asked
20 to be dropped off. The reason why he asked to get
21 dropped off at a different place than I had been told to
22 take him to, I do not know.
23 Q. Was it on the way, this other place? Was it on the way
24 to the meeting that he was going to attend?
25 A. No, it was, nine times out of ten, on the way back.
1 Q. So, in other words, after he had attended a meeting in
2 Busovaca or Kiseljak, he is coming back into Vitez, you
3 might drop him in Busovaca instead of taking him back to
4 Vitez, is that what you mean, for example?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did UNPROFOR keep a log or a record of whether they
7 transported Tihomir Blaskic and for what purpose?
8 A. I do not know.
9 Q. Who gave the orders for these transports?
10 A. The way that my company was organised was you had a
11 company working operations and then you had a company
12 off operations. The person heading up the operations as
13 a whole for the battalion would have given direction to
14 the company ops officer or second in command and then
15 the way it worked was that whoever was on patrol that
16 day used to pick up a tasking sheet to say "this is what
17 you have to achieve this day". Who was responsible for
18 producing that, I do not know. There was no record of
19 those kept, it was purely a paper thing that we would
20 throw away after our patrols.
21 Q. You said some of the persons you transported at times
22 were aggressive and unfriendly?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You described one occasion when Tihomir Blaskic asked to
25 be dropped in Busovaca instead of Kiseljak on the way
1 back from Vitez?
2 A. No, I was taking him -- yes, that is correct.
3 Q. He was coming back from Kiseljak?
4 A. No, he was coming back from Vitez and I was due to take
5 him to Kiseljak and he asked to be dropped in Busovaca,
6 which I did.
7 Q. Other than that incident, was there any other incident
8 where Tihomir Blaskic became aggressive towards you?
9 A. I would not say aggressive. He was surly, unfriendly,
10 arrogant, every time.
11 Q. Did you ever have a substantive discussion with him?
12 A. No, because I could not speak his language.
13 Q. So I take it you, along with the other BritBat soldiers,
14 resented having to perform this duty?
15 A. We did it to the best of our ability, and sometimes it
16 formed part of other taskings that we had.
17 Q. It formed a part of other taskings, is that what you
19 A. Obviously the UN headquarters being in Kiseljak, we
20 might have to pick the mail up, so we doubled it up with
21 picking him up, for example.
22 Q. Were you out on patrol at all on either 14th or
23 15th April 1993?
24 A. I could have been, yes.
25 Q. Did you see any activities on either 14th or 15th April
1 1993 that indicated preparatory steps for a large
3 A. I have already stated that there was a period of
4 tension, and that when it happened on the 16th, people
5 did not fully realise the situation because people were
6 not expecting it.
7 Q. I understand that answer, but I am asking a somewhat
8 more direct question. On 14th or 15th April, did you
9 see any activities on the part of the HVO or anyone else
10 in the Vitez area that were in the nature of
11 preparations for a large attack, military attack?
12 A. I am going purely off memory here. Around the area of
13 Vitez, I do not recall seeing any preparations being
14 made. However, I believe that when I was involved with
15 the HVO staff officers, which would have been I think,
16 if my memory serves me correctly, a few days before the
17 incidents that happened on the 16th -- could you verify
18 that, whether I am right with my dates?
19 Q. When you say the incident involving HVO staff officers,
20 I do not know what you are referring to. I would be
21 happy to show you your statement to the OTP if you would
22 like to see it.
23 A. I said that I was involved with a meeting between people
24 to try to reach a resolution of that. I remember
25 speaking about this earlier today.
1 MR. HAYMAN: If there is something that the Prosecutor has
2 that would help you refresh your recollection, I invite
3 him to chime in, your Honour.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?
5 MR. CAYLEY: This is a somewhat foreign process for me,
6 actually assisting in the examination, but I will do it
7 because I do recall earlier the witness testifying about
8 the kidnapping of four HVO staff officers, which he knew
9 about, and which he was involved in the negotiation for
10 their release.
11 JUDGE JORDA: I should like us to focus the question. We
12 are going to have a break very soon.
13 Mr. Hayman, do you have a lot more, that is my
15 MR. HAYMAN: I have one or two more questions, then I suggest
16 we break and then I have about five more minutes, your
18 A. Excuse me, your Honour, could I just finish --
19 MR. HAYMAN: Could we finish this one area?
20 JUDGE JORDA: On this particular point, I should like you to
21 repose your question. You started from the general
22 context, whether before the 16th the witness expected an
23 attack of this scope, and whether he participated in
24 negotiations with the HVO. Was that the question, did
25 he have that impression? Was that your question,
1 Mr. Hayman?
2 MR. HAYMAN: Let me rephrase it, Mr. President, if I may.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, please, rephrase that question clearly.
4 MR. HAYMAN: The kidnapping of the four staff officers in the
5 Novi Travnik area I believe was on or about 14th April
6 1993 -- if that is of assistance, counsel can interject
7 if they disagree. My question was, on the 14th or 15th,
8 did you see any preparatory steps being taken in the
9 Vitez area for a large military attack?
10 A. As I have previously stated, not in the Vitez area, but
11 as I was in Novi Travnik, as a direct result of those
12 kidnappings, there were large amounts of HVO troops in
13 Novi Travnik and they were aggressive towards us.
14 I would not say it was open hostility, but they were
15 very unfriendly towards us.
16 Q. Anything else that you saw that would be responsive to
17 my question?
18 A. No.
19 MR. HAYMAN: This would be a convenient break, your Honour.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We will resume in 20 minutes at
22 (4.05 pm)
23 (A short break)
24 (4.25 pm)
25 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Have the accused
1 brought in.
2 (Accused brought in)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman?
4 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President. First I would like to
5 offer into evidence the transparency which was placed on
6 top of exhibit 56, the aerial of the Vitez region.
7 I think it has been taken down.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Transparency over exhibit 56, is that
11 MR. HAYMAN: Yes. We would also like to offer the witness's
12 prior statement to the office of the Tribunal
13 Prosecutor, four pages in length, dated April
14 24th 1995.
15 JUDGE JORDA: No objection? Mr. Cayley?
16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, we have no objection to the
17 admission of the witness statement, but what the
18 Prosecutor would like is the opportunity to review the
19 statement that Mr. Hayman took from the witness, because
20 we may wish to offer that into evidence ourselves.
21 MR. HAYMAN: I am not offering it to them, your Honour, and
22 I do not intend to give it to them unless the court
23 would order me to do so, which I do not think there is a
24 basis for.
25 JUDGE JORDA: It is a statement made to the Prosecution,
1 therefore a priori it is a statement -- no, not made to
2 the Prosecution? Maybe I am wrong, it is a statement by
3 the witness made to the Defence, is that so, Mr. Cayley?
4 MR. CAYLEY: If I could clarify on behalf of my learned
5 friend and myself, there are two statements in
6 existence. The first statement is a statement that was
7 taken down by the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995, that
8 is the statement that Mr. Hayman is offering into
9 evidence. Subsequently, Mr. Hayman interviewed this
10 witness on his own, and he took a statement from that
11 witness, which he has referred to when he was
12 cross-examining the witness. We are asking for sight of
13 that statement because we may wish to actually offer
14 that statement into evidence. There is no property in a
15 witness, that is why Mr. Hayman was allowed to interview
16 him in the first place, and we feel that it is perfectly
17 legitimate for us to request sight of that statement.
18 MR. HAYMAN: I would simply ask that the court request
19 briefing on this question, if it is going to seriously
20 entertain the issue. This issue has been ruled on by
21 other Trial Chambers and statements of Defence witnesses
22 have been found not to be producable, so if the court is
23 going to entertain it, I would ask the court to ask
24 briefing so it has a proper explanation and setting
25 forth of the parties' positions before making any
2 JUDGE JORDA: I wish to consult my colleagues. (Pause).
3 The Trial Chamber feels that this document was
4 identified by the witness, therefore the Trial Chamber
5 is of the opinion that the whole document should be
6 admitted into evidence, so as to allow the Prosecutor to
7 respond to it. Therefore, Mr. Hayman, you will submit
8 the whole statement.
9 MR. HAYMAN: Which document are you referring to,
10 Mr. President? The Prosecution statement or --
11 JUDGE JORDA: That is the question that I put a moment ago.
12 We are referring to the statement that you, the Defence,
13 took from the witness, the second statement, your
14 statement, the statement that you collected from
15 Captain Ellis.
16 MR. HAYMAN: I never showed it to the witness, your Honour.
17 He never identified it.
18 JUDGE JORDA: He identified, he agreed with the fact that --
19 you read the declaration to him when you interviewed
20 him, did you not? It is not a synthesised document, it
21 is not a summary, you had an interview with the witness
22 and you took a statement from him.
23 MR. HAYMAN: No, I did not. It is not a statement in that
24 nature. I tape recorded some of my interviews. I have
25 a tape. It is not something he was ever shown, it was
1 never read to him, he never reviewed it, he never signed
2 anything; there is no statement in that sense.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps the terms were not properly explained
4 to the Trial Chamber. I am going to consult my
5 colleagues again.
6 What were you implying, Mr. Cayley? You spoke of a
7 statement and Mr. Hayman, you too spoke of a statement.
8 That is what misled the Trial Chamber.
9 MR. HAYMAN: The statement taken by the Prosecutor's Office
10 was signed by the witness.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Right. But the statement that you took from
12 the witness?
13 MR. HAYMAN: I did not take a statement. I tape recorded my
14 interview with him, a tape which has never left my
15 possession. It is my work product, it contains
16 attorney/client privileged materials and I do not intend
17 to surrender it.
18 JUDGE JORDA: But a moment ago, when you asked the witness
19 to identify something, when you gave him sentences on
20 the ELMO? This one, the statement that you drew a
21 sentence from:
22 "I could see quite a bit of fighting going on
23 between the Muslims and the HVO."
24 That is the Prosecutor's statement? Yes, all
25 right. In that case, there is no debate. What is the
1 statement that you wish to be admitted into evidence,
2 Mr. Hayman? Which statement?
3 MR. HAYMAN: The Prosecutor's statement.
4 JUDGE JORDA: That is what I understood from the beginning,
5 Mr. Cayley. Therefore I see no objection to the
6 admission of that statement.
7 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, we have no objection to the
8 admission of that statement. However, in respect of the
9 interview that took place between Mr. Hayman and
10 Captain Ellis, Mr. Hayman referred in his
11 cross-examination of the witness to the content of that
12 interview, so the content, or part of the content, of
13 that interview has been introduced into the court. He
14 referred to it specifically. I recall, and I am sure he
15 does as well, and the point that we are making is that
16 if that is to take place the Prosecutor should have the
17 right to review either the tape or a transcript of that
18 interview that took place.
19 JUDGE JORDA: That is another problem that you are raising,
20 that is another issue. I think that you wish to contest
21 certain elements. You will have the right to re-examine
22 the witness regarding what Mr. Hayman said when he
23 cross-examined the witness. He put certain questions to
24 him, saying "you said this, you said that". The witness
25 replied as he wanted. You have a right to re-examine,
1 and I see that there are no other questions in that
2 connection. Very well. Let me recapitulate. The
3 statement will be admitted into evidence, it is the only
4 exhibit that will be admitted into evidence. In that
5 case, we can continue. Mr. Hayman?
6 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President. I have one more area
7 of enquiry and that is a videotape which I would like to
8 play. It is quite short. There are three segments, and
9 I have asked that the three segments be played
10 sequentially with a pause in between each of the three.
11 Captain Ellis, with respect to the first segment,
12 I would ask that if during the playing of the first
13 segment, if you are able to identify a location, a
14 Warrior, an UN vehicle or if you recognise a particular
15 scene, a place, that you tell us and that after this
16 segment is played, I will also have some additional
17 questions of you. All right?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. HAYMAN: So I ask that the first segment of the tape be
21 (Videotape played)
22 (Videotape stopped)
23 Q. This is the end of the first segment. If it could be
24 held on the screen, if possible. While that is coming
25 back, I would like to ask you, Captain Ellis, first did
1 you recognise any of the places or vehicles depicted in
2 this segment of videotape.
3 A. It is very quick.
4 Q. Shall we play it again?
5 A. If you could, please.
6 MR. HAYMAN: Let us run it back and if we could play it again
7 and you could watch, and if you see any places, events,
8 persons that you recognise, try to make a mental note of
9 it and you can tell us when the segment is concluded or,
10 if you wish, you can tell us as you see it.
11 (Videotape played)
12 A. That is the Ahmici mosque.
13 Q. Is that a Warrior?
14 A. No, it is a Scimitar, that is a Lancer call sign.
15 I believe this to be in the Santici Ahmici area.
16 I think that could be the road around Vitez.
17 I certainly do not recognise him.
18 (Videotape stopped)
19 Q. If we can hold this shot, do you recognise the vehicle
20 depicted partially in this picture?
21 A. Yes, it is a Scimitar.
22 Q. Do you know who is at the top of a Scimitar?
23 A. It is a soldier.
24 Q. Do you recognise the garb as being UN garb? Blue
1 A. I cannot see that he is actually wearing a blue helmet
2 on my screen.
3 Q. If it is a blue helmet, is that UN garb?
4 A. Possibly so.
5 Q. What kind of weapon is being handed out of the Scimitar,
6 can you tell?
7 A. It is a shotgun.
8 Q. Is that a standard UN-issue firearm?
9 A. No, it is not.
10 Q. Do you recognise the hooded or turbaned individual to
11 whom the shotgun is being handed?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Can you shed any additional light on this image?
14 A. Apart from the fact it could be anywhere and anywhen,
16 Q. Do you recognise any of the clips on this tape? That
17 is, have you seen them before, have you seen them showed
18 or played before?
19 A. I have not seen -- certainly not this. I believe that
20 the first image of a Scimitar driving past the ruined
21 mosque of Ahmici, I think I might have seen that
22 before. The others I do not believe that I have seen
24 Q. The one that you believe you have seen before, was that
25 shown within the BritBat base?
1 A. Was it shown, what, as a video?
2 Q. Was it shown to the forces or was it shown privately?
3 A. I do not understand.
4 Q. Was there a viewing of that material or did you see it
5 some other way?
6 A. It certainly was not a cinema viewing, no.
7 Q. Viewing as within the UNPROFOR forces, or was it a
8 private viewing, do you remember?
9 A. I think it was part of a tape that our battalion made.
10 I cannot say exactly where I saw it, but I probably
11 watched it privately, yes.
12 Q. A tape that was made with different clips of footage to
13 in some ways remember the service in Bosnia?
14 A. Yes, to highlight the tape I am talking about, my
15 platoon sergeant helped rescue a load of ITV British
16 television archive from a building and as a favour they
17 cut together some clips as a memory of our tour.
18 I believe that the clip of that Scimitar, which is the
19 same sort of vehicle as the machine here, driving past
20 the broken part of the Ahmici mosque was part of that
22 Q. But you do not recognise this image of an UN soldier
23 handing a shotgun to a hooded or turbaned combatant, is
24 that right?
25 A. No, I do not, not at all.
1 Q. As we play the next segment, if you could tell us if you
2 recognise any of the persons depicted, where the segment
3 was taken and when, if you would roll the second
4 segment, please, which is very short, perhaps five
6 (Videotape played)
7 A. That is Martyn Thomas, that is Monty Wooley.
8 (Videotape stopped)
9 Q. Do you recognise the earlier scene of a structure in
10 this segment? Would you like to see it again?
11 A. It is a door.
12 Q. Why do we not run it back, with the court's permission,
13 it is very short. Play it once more. You will notice
14 the date in the lower right-hand corner, April
15 16th 1993.
16 (Videotape played)
17 Q. You said that is Martyn Thomas to the left in the blue
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Mr. Wooley to the right?
21 A. That is correct, yes.
22 Q. Was he also in your UNPROFOR force?
23 A. He was part of the 9th/12th Lancer squadron attached to
24 1 Cheshire. He was a troop commander with the squadron,
25 he is a cavalry officer. I do not recognise exactly
1 where that might be.
2 (Videotape stopped)
3 Q. Very well. The third segment; again, if you could watch
4 and tell us if you recognise any person, any place or
5 the vehicles depicted in this third segment.
6 You can play the third segment, please.
7 (Videotape played)
8 A. That is Jelinak, that is Colonel Stewart's vehicle.
9 (Videotape stopped)
10 Q. Let us play that again perhaps the technical staff could
11 freeze on -- if we could go back there, approximately
12 three scenes, and if we could go back to the first one,
13 yes, and freeze there on the man.
14 Do you recognise this individual?
15 A. Not as an individual, no.
16 Q. Is he dressed in a typical way a BiH soldier might be
17 dressed, with uniform pants but otherwise civilian
19 A. Possibly so, yes.
20 Q. But you do not know where or when this picture was
22 A. If it runs on to that next scene, if it is not a cut and
23 edited part, it would be in Jelinak.
24 Q. It may be cut between them. Let us progress to the
25 second --
1 A. It could be anywhere.
2 Q. Do you recognise this area.
3 A. That is Jelinak, yes.
4 Q. To the third depiction, please, yes.
5 A. The vehicle you can see in the bottom left would
6 probably be, although I do not know, it is the vehicle
7 that was seen in the frame before.
8 Q. What about the vehicle to the right in the middle right
9 of this screen?
10 A. The one on the right-hand side?
11 Q. Yes, on the right-hand side. Do you know what kind of
12 vehicle that is?
13 A. It is a Warrior fighting vehicle and it is a command
14 vehicle and I believe it to be Colonel Stewart's
16 Q. Is it firing in this vehicle?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Colonel Stewart's vehicle, did it fire at some point in
19 time that you recognise as being this point in time?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Where was that?
22 A. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe it to be
24 Q. Do you know what the circumstances of that engagement
1 A. I believe that they were being engaged by sniper fire
2 and they identified the sniper.
3 Q. And fire was returned?
4 A. I believe so, yes.
5 Q. Was Colonel Stewart present at the time?
6 A. I think so, yes.
7 Q. Have you seen any of the segments -- excuse me. Have
8 you seen any of the clips from the second and third
9 segments that you have seen before?
10 A. I have not seen the second segment, I have not seen that
11 before. I have not seen a picture of that soldier
12 running -- I have not actually seen this particular view
13 of this clip, although I have seen something that
14 represents the same incident.
15 Q. Do you know, was there a larger body of tape that your
16 UNPROFOR group took, to create, if you will, a video
17 containing certain portions to memorialise, if you will,
18 your tour in Bosnia?
19 A. There was a video produced, as I say, by my platoon
20 sergeant with the help of the ITV camera people. Where
21 that footage is -- it was cut and pasted to create, as
22 you say, a memorial-type video.
23 Q. When you say your platoon sergeant, who was that?
24 A. That was Sergeant Kujivinsky.
25 Q. Do you know who has that tape now?
1 A. I do not have a copy of it myself. I do not know who
3 Q. Was it copied and copies made available to persons that
4 wanted it?
5 A. Not really, because my platoon sergeant made it solely
6 for A company.
7 Q. Within A company, was it distributed?
8 A. It was not distributed. I know some people did have
9 copies of it. I do not know who has copies of it now,
10 though. (Pause).
11 JUDGE JORDA: Please, your microphone, Mr. Hayman.
12 MR. HAYMAN: Yes. I think portions of the tape were
13 identified by the witness, portions were not. We would
14 need to sort through that. Why do we not look at the
15 record and then we can offer the segments -- we will
16 offer the segments that he identified and we can do that
17 at a later point in time, your Honour.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. That is in accord with the
19 position taken by the Trial Chamber regarding your
20 request of 30th July. In this case the witness has
21 identified some parts of the video, and not identified
22 others. For the present, we will not admit it into
24 MR. HAYMAN: That concludes my examination. Thank you.
25 Thank you, Captain Ellis.
1 A. Mr. Hayman.
2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Captain. The judges now have a
3 certain number of questions -- no, I am sorry. You see,
4 I am in a hurry to proceed, so it is a fault on the part
5 of the President.
6 I apologise, Mr. Cayley. You already said that you
7 would use your right to re-examine, so Captain, I wanted
8 to release you too quickly, but first the Prosecutor has
9 the right to re-examine after the cross-examination and
10 after that, the judges will have some questions for
12 Mr. Cayley, of course, within the scope of the
13 cross-examination only. Go ahead, please.
14 Re-examined by MR. CAYLEY
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. Captain Ellis, in your
16 cross-examination you referred to a kidnapping of
17 certain HVO staff officers that occurred in, I think,
18 approximately mid April. At the time, what was your
19 opinion as to why that kidnapping of those HVO staff
20 officers had taken place?
21 A. There was at the time a lot of tension in the area and
22 speaking to other officers within the battalion, and
23 I do not know this first hand, there was a lot of
24 tension in Turbe and Travnik where the Muslim soldiers
25 were having difficulty doing their normal change around
1 on the front-line. They used to orchestrate a changeover
2 of troops, and the general feeling was that they were
3 being prevented to do so by the HVO, and I believe at
4 the time it was generally felt that the reason these
5 kidnappings took place was as a direct result of that
6 anger that they felt.
7 Q. So these were Bosnian soldiers on the front-line with the
8 Bosnian Serbs in Turbe, is that correct?
9 A. That is correct, that was where they were not being able
10 to effect their changeovers.
11 Q. The HVO were preventing these soldiers coming back from
12 the front-lines and changing over with other soldiers, is
13 that correct?
14 A. I do not know whether that is fact or not. That was the
15 general impression held at the time.
16 Q. Amongst the officers of the battalion?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. You stated also in your cross-examination,
19 you were trying as best you could to describe the number
20 of houses that you saw on fire in Vitez, and I accept
21 that your memory is now some nearly five years old, but
22 can you make it precise for the court and explain
23 whether or not every house that you saw that morning was
24 on fire, or whether some were on fire, and in fact the
25 state of those houses; if there were houses that were
1 not on fire, what state those houses were in?
2 A. There were, and I refer now to the whole of the Vitez
3 area, as an overall impression, there were houses on
4 fire. I cannot say exactly which ones were. However,
5 there were also houses that were not on fire. Some of
6 those houses were not touched in any way by bullet pock
7 marks or shrapnel scars, whereas some of the houses on
8 fire were. The impression at the time was that these
9 houses had not been touched at all. They had been
10 touched -- they had not been touched purely because they
11 deliberately did not want to be touched.
12 Q. Did you get the impression that there was a selection
13 process actually taking place at the time?
14 A. I could not say that there was a selection, but it did
15 seem strange that some houses were on fire, other houses
16 were riddled with bullets and yet some houses remained
18 Q. Is it not true that in the course of a battle between
19 two forces engaged with each other, you would expect to
20 see all of the housing damaged by crossfire, by bullet
21 marks; is that not right?
22 A. I would say it was almost a certainty that if rounds
23 were fired, mortar rounds were exploding and there were
24 objectives to be achieved, yes, the majority of
25 buildings in an area would be affected in such a way.
1 Q. Thank you, we will move on.
2 A lot of discussion in your cross-examination
3 centred around this phrase that you used of "fighting
4 between the Muslims and the HVO". Did you at any time,
5 in any of these places that you visited on 16th April,
6 see any form of credible defence against the attack that
7 you saw taking place?
8 A. No.
9 Q. In your entire time of service in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
10 did you see any dead soldiers at all?
11 A. Not to my memory, no.
12 Q. Did you see any dead civilians?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. A lot?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do not place a number on it, if you cannot. A large
17 number, a small number?
18 A. In proportion, yes, I definitely saw the results of dead
19 civilians, 20 maybe 30 personally.
20 Q. You also mentioned during your cross-examination that
21 you identified the Dubravica school as being the
22 location of the anti-tank recoilless gun that engaged
23 you; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I think you subsequently visited that school, did you
1 not, with Colonel Stewart?
2 A. That is correct, yes.
3 Q. Why did you visit the school?
4 A. I was there to provide protection. Colonel Stewart was
5 visiting with Claire Pobliovski, who is a RC
6 representative, and their intent was to negotiate a
7 prisoner release. It was my understanding that
8 prisoners were being held by Croat forces and I was
9 purely there to provide protection for that move.
10 Q. These prisoners were being held by the HVO?
11 A. The feeling was that the Croat forces as a whole were
12 there, although my understanding of it was there were
13 HOS there as well.
14 Q. You mentioned in your testimony that you encountered a
15 Bosnian tank brigade on the Vitez Zenica road; what was
16 the function of that brigade on that road, did the
17 Bosnian soldiers tell you?
18 A. They told me their task was to keep that road open.
19 Q. You referred also in your testimony to the fact, both in
20 your examination-in-chief and your cross-examination,
21 that you took General Blaskic to a number of locations
22 in and around Central Bosnia. Were you ever instructed
23 at the time by the battalion why you were taking him to
24 a particular place?
25 A. The usual outline task was to pick him up. The belief
1 was that he was attending conferences with or hosted by
2 the British battalion, and that was the general reason
3 that we thought behind it.
4 Q. You mentioned that you had seen a large number of troops
5 in Novi Travnik on 15th April.
6 A. That is correct, yes.
7 Q. To which military faction did those troops belong?
8 A. The HVO.
9 Q. What was the atmosphere like in Novi Travnik at this
11 A. It was one of very high tension. There was a very
12 different atmosphere in the air to the remainder of the
13 surrounding area. There was one of tension, it was very
15 Q. There was an atmosphere of expectation?
16 A. You could not quite put your finger on it, but something
17 was --
18 Q. Something was going to happen?
19 A. Possibly so. There was definitely a heightened
20 atmosphere of tension.
21 Q. How many troops were there in Novi Travnik?
22 A. I could not say how many troops there were. It was
23 night-time. I saw 10, maybe 15 troops on the road sides.
24 Q. Do you know whether any of these troops subsequently
25 went to the area of Krcevine?
1 A. No, I do not.
2 Q. You referred, both in your cross-examination and your
3 examination-in-chief, to the garage on the bypass that
4 goes around Vitez. Is there anything particularly
5 significant about that garage? Is there anything that
6 you recall in your memory?
7 A. The only reason, apart from its location, was that there
8 was a place next to it, a sort of large building and by
9 it there was a bear in a cage.
10 Q. When you were in Bosnia, during your service in that
11 area, do you consider the HVO and the HOS to be part of
12 the Bosnian Croat forces in the area?
13 A. They were definitely part of the Bosnian Croat forces,
15 Q. One last point, Captain Ellis. I know you are a man of
16 great modesty, but on your left chest there is a small
17 oak leaf, is there not?
18 A. That is correct, yes.
19 Q. I understand that, certainly from my own knowledge, that
20 is an official -- an indication of official mention in
21 despatches, is that correct?
22 A. That is correct, yes.
23 Q. I think that is in fact an operational gallantry award
24 that you wear on your chest, is it not?
25 A. That is correct, yes.
1 Q. Can you explain to the court how you were mentioned in
2 despatches, very briefly?
3 A. I led my platoon across a minefield under shellfire and
4 sustained machine gun fire.
5 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad?
7 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Captain Ellis. I would like to
8 ask you some global questions, perhaps to help in my
9 summing-up your extensive, may I say, eyewitness which
10 you spent the last hours telling us.
11 The first thing which I gathered clearly was that
12 all the victims you came across, you saw in burnt
13 houses, whether they were women, children or men, were
14 civilians, am I right in this deduction?
15 A. That is correct, although I could not ascertain whether
16 the people in that burning house were civilians or not
17 because they were on fire.
18 Q. By the way, in one of the burning houses you said you
19 saw two people sitting?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Were the houses burnt with people inside?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. The inhabitants of these houses were supposed to be
24 military people or just normal citizens?
25 A. I presumed that they were normal citizens.
1 Q. But the others you saw, you came across, you mentioned
2 women, children and so on, they were apparently
4 A. Definitely, yes.
5 Q. Civilians. You mentioned that HVO moved in Jelinak and
6 you even used the words "butchered and tortured people",
7 as well as in Sivrino Selo, also in Ahmici, the mosque
8 was destroyed and in Santici there were damages and in
9 many places there were massive explosions. Were these
10 places or others, were they in any way places of
11 resistance, or was this required by, to say, military
13 A. I believe that the village areas, Santici, Sivrino Selo,
14 Ahmici were purely civilian villages with no tactical
16 Q. So there was no obvious reason for the attacking?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I would like also to ask you, the structure -- the
19 nature of the action you mentioned in your eyewitness
20 testimony indicates that the attacks were by disciplined
21 soldiers, or were they by hoodlums and undisciplined
23 A. The only real action that I saw being fought was in the
24 town of Vitez and I believe that action was conducted in
25 a disciplined and organised manner.
1 Q. Forgive me if I ask you to talk a little louder, because
2 I am not having my earphones.
3 A. The only real troop movement and offensive action I saw
4 being fought was in Vitez. I believe that the nature of
5 the operation they were conducting required command and
7 Q. Yes. Also the nature of the weapons, apparently some of
8 them were highly sophisticated. I am not a military
9 man, I could not understand what you explained, but they
10 were apparently highly sophisticated. Would that be in
11 the hands of normal people, or of disciplined military
13 A. The fact of the matter is that that one weapon that
14 I saw, the anti-tank rocket, was so out of place in the
15 normal environs of Vitez that yes, there were more
16 sophisticated weaponry than you would expect to see in
17 normal militia and local-type troops.
18 Q. Did you notice any, what can I say, parallelism in the
19 attacks which indicate that there was a planning and an
20 organisation of the whole thing?
21 A. I believe that it was an organised operation for a
22 number of reasons, the first of which I believe to be
23 the seizure of key points. The key points in this
24 instance were the garage and the blocking off of the
25 Vitez road, for whatever reason.
1 Secondly, the fact that bodies of troops were
2 walking down the road to Vitez indicates that there was
3 a grouping system, and secondly, orchestrated fighting,
4 as I have already described, within the town of Vitez.
5 Lastly, the fact that the actual re-supply of
6 ammunition to the area would have had to have required a
7 logistic chain that would have had to have been planned
8 beforehand and therefore, yes, I believe it was a
9 pre-planned and commanded operation throughout.
10 Q. You say "commanded". Have you an idea in whose hand was
11 the command?
12 A. I do not know who actually commanded that operation, no.
13 Q. Who was the general commander of the area in which all
14 these eyewitness testimony relates?
15 A. My understanding is that Blaskic was the regional
16 commander of the area, the area basically being that
17 which runs from Vitez through to Busovaca and down to
19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Captain Ellis.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Judge Riad.
21 Judge Shahabuddeen, do you have any questions for
22 the witness?
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Captain, I shall not keep you very
24 long. My first question is tacked on to Judge Riad's
25 first question. That is, you saw various places under
1 attack on 16th April; in these various places, did you
2 see any defensive arrangements, I imagine such as barbed
3 wire or sand-bagging, or manholes or ditches?
4 A. No, none at all.
5 Q. That would apply also to Jelinak?
6 A. I do not recall any purpose-built defences, no.
7 Q. You transported General Blaskic, I think, on 15 or 16
8 occasions, is that right?
9 A. That would be an approximate figure, yes.
10 Q. Your impression was that on each occasion he went to
11 attend conferences with the British battalion, is that
13 A. That is correct, and it was either a pick-up to take him
14 to or a drop-off to take him from those particular
16 Q. Would it also be your impression that the purpose of
17 those discussions was to arrange in some manner or the
18 other to diffuse tension in the area?
19 A. That is what I believe the sole purpose of those
20 meetings was to be, yes.
21 Q. Now then, did you ever transport anyone from HOS to
22 those meetings?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Within your knowledge, did any other transporting agency
25 that you know of also transport any HOS people to those
1 conferences with the British battalion?
2 A. Not as far as I am aware, no.
3 Q. The British battalion tended to liaise with
4 General Blaskic, is that correct?
5 A. I believe that to be the case. It would have to be
6 clarified by a senior officer to me.
7 Q. Yes. Was he the senior officer on the Croatian side?
8 A. That was my understanding, yes. The Croatian forces in
9 the area were as a whole commanded by himself.
10 Q. I am a little interested in the relations between HOS
11 and the HVO, so can you tell me, you said you saw
12 General Blaskic in black. Did HOS also use black
14 A. Yes, they did, yes.
15 Q. You spent some time on the ground in the Vitez area, is
16 that correct?
17 A. On the 16th in my vehicle, yes.
18 Q. What about other times during your stay in the area?
19 A. Yes, I had occasion to go into Vitez, yes.
20 Q. Did HOS in any way co-operate with the HVO?
21 A. I personally did not see the HOS in Vitez; however,
22 I did see the HOS mixing quite freely with HVO troops in
23 the town of Busovaca.
24 Q. Which was the larger body of men, the HOS or the HVO?
25 A. The HVO.
1 Q. You said you saw three houses burning in the vicinity of
2 the catholic church, is that right?
3 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.
4 Q. Did you receive any information as to how those houses
5 might have been set on fire?
6 A. I am not in possession of any information.
7 Q. HOS had its headquarters where?
8 A. I believe that the HOS headquarters -- in fact, I do not
9 know where the HOS headquarters was. I know their main
10 rest area, or the main area where they used to be, was
11 an area past Ahmici on the left-hand side of the road in
12 an old cafe.
13 Q. How far is that from the Hotel Vitez in Vitez?
14 A. Four, possibly five, six kilometres.
15 Q. You are a military man, and you have had experience in
16 planning, I think you said, is that correct?
17 A. That is correct, yes.
18 Q. Within your knowledge, was it within the capacity of HOS
19 to stage an operation on its own which resulted in the
20 kind of damage which you saw on 16th and 17th?
21 A. Not on its own, no. They could have taken one objective
22 out of the many that we saw, but not on its own as a
24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I thank you very much, Captain.
25 A. Thank you, your Honour.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Captain, the Trial Chamber wishes to thank you
2 for the totality of your testimony to the Prosecutor and
3 the Defence and also in answering the questions of my
4 colleagues. Your appearance before this Tribunal is
5 ended and the Tribunal wishes to thank you for your
6 contribution. Mr. Registrar, will you please have the
7 witness accompanied out and after that, it will be
8 almost 5.30, so I think the Prosecutor can tell us what
9 we are going to do tomorrow. Please accompany the
10 witness, Mr. Usher.
11 (The witness withdrew)
12 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Cayley?
14 MR. CAYLEY: On a housekeeping note, if I could formally
15 apply for admission of five exhibits which I have not
16 formally applied for. They are exhibits 105, 106 and
17 107, and exhibits 50D and 56D.
18 JUDGE JORDA: No objection?
19 MR. HAYMAN: Could counsel just describe those for me, your
21 MR. CAYLEY: That is the photograph of the artillery piece
22 next to the church and the two buildings in Sivrino
23 Selo. We can identify where they come from, if the
24 Registrar requires the source.
25 MR. HAYMAN: No objection as to the three photos. And the
1 other two, counsel?
2 MR. CAYLEY: The other two are the aerial photographs that we
3 looked at after lunch with the markings on where you
4 were content --
5 MR. HAYMAN: No objection, your Honour.
6 MR. CAYLEY: In respect of tomorrow's proceedings,
7 Mr. President, yes, we do have another witness with which
8 we will proceed.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Will there be any protective measures for that
10 witness so we do not waste any time tomorrow?
11 MR. CAYLEY: No, Mr. President, there will be no protective
12 measures required.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. (Pause). Very well. You know
14 that there was a plenary meeting of judges that was to
15 be held on Friday, it has been adjourned and therefore
16 the Trial Chamber can sit on Thursday and Friday under
17 normal conditions. The session is adjourned, we will
18 meet tomorrow at 10.00.
19 (5.30 pm)
20 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)