Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4061

1 Thursday, 20th November 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Registrar, would you have

4 the accused brought in, please.

5 (Accused brought in)

6 JUDGE JORDA: Are the interpreters ready? All our

7 interpreter friends are ready. Does everybody hear?

8 Good morning, everybody. Does everybody hear? Does the

9 Prosecutor hear, Mr. Blaskic, do you hear me?

10 MR. BLASKIC: Good morning, your Honour, I can hear you

11 well.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. I would first like to

13 ask the Registrar if we might move into a private

14 session. We are now going to use the expression "huit

15 clos partiel" instead of "session privée".

16 (In private session)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

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Page 4068

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14 (redacted)

15 (In open session)

16 MR. HAYMAN: I would just note, your Honour, we do not have a

17 reason to object to protective measures, but we have not

18 been told who this witness is or what protective

19 measures are being requested. There may be instances

20 where we would have an objection and I think it would

21 speed the procedure if generally we were told before the

22 witness comes what is going on.

23 JUDGE JORDA: I think that objection by Mr. Hayman is

24 relevant. There has been that decision taken, there has

25 been a list, but one should indicate protected witness

Page 4069

1 and what those protective measures.

2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, we have done that routinely,

3 as counsel knows. This particular protected witness,

4 and I will gladly tell counsel who that is and the

5 court, if we go into private session, but the protection

6 requested is full body, voice and pseudonym.

7 JUDGE JORDA: Registrar, these protective measures, they

8 have been taken pursuant to an order, could you refresh

9 my memory?

10 THE REGISTRAR: No, I do not think so.

11 JUDGE JORDA: So we have to be careful here. In our order,

12 our decision from January or February I believe, we have

13 taken general measures, obliging the Defence to do

14 similar things, I think, to abide by the proper form.

15 Just one second. Before bringing in the witness,

16 generally speaking the court must protect witnesses but

17 Prosecutor, I do think that we sort out these measures

18 via the Registrar. It would be important because the

19 Defence sometimes would like to enter into a discussion

20 on these points. That is all I have to say now, we can

21 bring in the witness.

22 (Witness entered court)

23 JUDGE JORDA: Witness J, can you hear me?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.

25 JUDGE JORDA: Now we are going to have you take your solemn

Page 4070

1 oath which all witnesses must make, it is an oath, so

2 the Registrar is going to provide you this. We are

3 going to deal with you as an anonymous witness but we do

4 have to make sure that you are the witness called by the

5 Prosecution. The Registrar --


7 JUDGE JORDA: Please remain seated and read out the oath.

8 WITNESS J (sworn)

9 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Witness J, you have accepted at

10 the request of the Prosecution -- can you hear me,

11 madam?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE JORDA: You have accepted to testify about events you

14 saw. The Tribunal is going to ask you about these

15 events at a given point in time when the Prosecution

16 believes it is appropriate, or when fellow judges

17 believe it is appropriate. You will have questions put

18 to you to refocus, as it were, your testimony on the

19 essential events, and then as the Prosecutor probably

20 told you, when you are done with your testimony, of

21 course, the counsel of the accused, because we are in a

22 court of law, will be putting questions to you as well.

23 Obviously all this will take place under the

24 control of the judges. Please relax, there is nothing

25 to be afraid of, and we will try to be brief, but at the

Page 4071

1 same time do take your time. You certainly came because

2 you witnessed the events on 16th April 1993, events that

3 affected you personally and your property, your family,

4 and you are going to tell us with your words, as you see

5 fit. And you had dealings with military units, you tell

6 us about that, and then, of course, the Prosecutor will

7 be able to interrupt you, but simply to keep you on the

8 straight and narrow path, because there is no point

9 going into everything. What the Prosecutor wants you to

10 say is what we really want to hear. Is that clear to

11 you?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE JORDA: So by your leave, will you please tell us what

14 you want to tell us about these events on 16th April.

15 Please, go right ahead and from time to time the

16 Prosecutor will redirect the tack you have taken as and

17 when necessary. We are listening to you, madam.

18 A. On 15th May 1992, I had to leave Karaula because of the

19 aggression. I left with my children who were small.

20 I moved to Vitez where I lived until 28th December

21 1992. After that, I moved to Ahmici. That is where we

22 stayed until 16th April, until the attack. Until then,

23 everything was normal, we did not have any problems.

24 That night, we also went to bed to go to sleep and in

25 the morning, early, I heard (inaudible) first bullets

Page 4072

1 hit the windows of the house where I was living.

2 My child, my mother and my brother's wife were

3 sleeping in one room, and then the incendiary bullets

4 hit the bedding and then I was sleeping in the other

5 room with my husband and my youngest child, the shooting

6 continued. We did not know what to do. We hid behind

7 the furniture. We did not stay there very long. After

8 that, we heard a burst of fire into the door. After the

9 burst of fire, some soldiers walked in. I did not see

10 them. I only heard their voices, and they said, "come

11 out. If we find you, you will fare worse". We remained

12 seated. They came to the door that was ajar, and in the

13 same voice, they repeated, "come out. If we find you,

14 you will fare worse". I tried to come out, my husband

15 forbid me, he said, "stay with the children, I am going

16 to go, you are the mother, you have to be with them".

17 He got up and walked towards the door.

18 He held his hands up and he only told them,

19 "people, do not shoot, I have small children here in

20 the room". They did not say anything to him, they just

21 shot at him. I did not hear a big explosion or

22 anything, a loud noise. I think there was a silencer

23 there or something. I could only see my husband falling

24 down by the door. I did not see a big wound on the

25 stomach, but when I tried to pull him into the room,

Page 4073

1 I noticed on the back that his intestines were all

2 spilled outside. They returned the moment they shot him

3 and I only heard them, "we can go, the Joe is done in

4 here". My children were screaming and yelling,

5 "daddy". We thought we could help him, but it was too

6 late.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted), "is anybody

14 alive? You have to move, your house is on fire. It was

15 hit by a shell". We were unprepared, still in pyjamas.

16 She helped us put some clothes on the children and we

17 started for the door.

18 My daughter, who was only 5 years old, was crying

19 and she said she would not leave daddy to burn there but

20 we could not pull him out, we did not even know what to

21 do with ourselves. They all went in the direction of

22 the house of Vlado Santic, who was across from a field.

23 My child did not want to leave the house, she was crying

24 and me too, how could we leave the body to burn, but we

25 had to leave because the roof was already caving in.

Page 4074

1 I summoned some strength and I started running across

2 the field.

3 When I came about halfway across the field, there

4 was some shooting, something powerful. I could only

5 sense that I was -- big chunks of earth fell on me and

6 then I fell down together with my child. When I felt

7 that the shooting was subsiding, I got up and moved on.

8 We arrived in front of Vlado's house, that is where we

9 were looking for some kind of a rescue, all the Muslim

10 houses were already on fire. We tried to enter, it was

11 locked. My neighbour called out, but nobody responded.

12 The other structures around his house were also

13 padlocked and we could not enter anywhere. There was

14 only one shed which was open and that is where we

15 entered. We sat there, we could still hear the

16 shooting, but no bullet ever hit that house or that

17 shed.

18 So we saw that we were safe there, and after

19 sitting there -- after we sat there for a while, the

20 first group of soldiers arrived and they were calling

21 Vlado by the name, they were banging at the door. He

22 did not respond. One of them said, "do not ring the

23 bell, you know that he has already left with his

24 family". They did not look towards the shed, they did

25 not notice us, but I did notice that they were painted

Page 4075

1 with black paint on their face, they had rifles and

2 camouflage uniforms and on the arm, they had a patch

3 with the HVO, with the chequer-board. They left and then

4 we stayed.

5 My children were crying, they said they were

6 hungry, I had nothing to give them. My neighbour tried

7 to get in through the window so that she could bring

8 something out of Vlado's house, but she could not

9 because of the shooting, so we stayed there, sitting

10 down and my children said, "mum, bring us something from

11 our own house", but by that time, our own house had

12 already burnt down.

13 After a while, the second group of soldiers

14 arrived, also in camouflage uniforms with the HVO

15 insignia. They did not have their faces painted. They

16 had rifles. They had white belts, they had bandoleers

17 and they had knives at their belts. They were asking

18 why this house was not on fire, one of them said, "it is

19 a Croatian house, that is why it is not in flames".

20 As they were saying this, they looked around and

21 they noticed us in this shed. They approached us, they

22 asked, "who are you?". My neighbour said that we were

23 here from the neighbourhood and they asked, "are you

24 from one of these two houses that are on fire?" , and

25 she said yes. They looked at each other and they said,

Page 4076

1 "the job was done there, but what do we do with them?".

2 I was afraid for my children, that they would take

3 them away. I looked down and I just kept silent. I did

4 not dare even cry. One of them said, "shall we kill

5 them or shall we go to the headquarters, to the Pican's

6 cafe to ask what to do with them?".

7 We kept silent and in the end they decided that

8 they would leave us there and go to the headquarters and

9 find out what to do, but they told us we could not leave

10 until they came back. We kept sitting there, we waited,

11 what our fate was going to be because we saw we were at

12 their mercy. We could see or hear nobody from the

13 Muslims, there was no resistance, there was no one, as

14 if all at once everything had either died or was killed.

15 We still waited, we heard a sound, it was a

16 personnel carrier which was coming from the direction of

17 Vitez. I asked my neighbour to come out so that we

18 would be seen, so that I could take the children out of

19 these flames, they were hungry and they already had peed

20 and I could not change them. My son, who was only a few

21 months old, was barefoot. It was difficult for us to

22 wait, but we decided to come out towards these tanks so

23 they did not notice us, because we did not dare come all

24 the way out, because the shooting was still going on.

25 They passed by and went to the mosque and they picked up

Page 4077

1 whoever was there, and they drove them away. We stayed

2 here, we kept waiting.

3 After a while, a group of women came to us with a

4 disabled small girl who was carried by them. I do not

5 know the number, but there was quite a few of us. When

6 they saw us, it looked as if they rejoiced because they

7 found someone because they too have lost everybody who

8 was male. They came to us and then we all cried. We

9 asked who survived of whom and we saw that this is

10 everybody who was left was there.

11 Then we heard a second tank, the sound of it, and

12 we decided to come out as a group so that we would be

13 observed and that we would be taken away from all these

14 flames, because there were flames all over, and

15 shooting. They said that they talked to the first group

16 of tanks and that they were told that we should stop the

17 second group, so we decided to come closer to the road.

18 We all went there in a group, except for my neighbour's

19 son, he did not dare go there, so he just went past a

20 house and the tanks approached and they noticed us. We

21 came out and we all rushed over there and they said that

22 we could not all get in, but we did not dare stay behind

23 because they were our only salvation, or else we would

24 be burned alive.

25 They picked us up and the first tank moved on to

Page 4078

1 see if there were any others around and the 16 of us

2 came into this tank, and as we were leaving, I turned

3 around to look at the house where my husband's body was

4 and his life was cut short at 30. That is the last

5 thing I remember, entering that tank. After that, I do

6 not know anything.

7 When we came near Travnik, I only heard from my

8 neighbour, her son says, "mum, wake up, please look at

9 me, I do not want to lose you as well", because they had

10 lost father and son. He said, "mum, it is already

11 Travnik, just come to, look around". I also came to at

12 that point, and I saw that we had left those flames, but

13 I carried with me the pain that I will never forget and

14 my child will never forget it. One of them was less

15 than 10 years old and they watched as her innocent

16 father was being killed, who defended them in the war

17 against the Serbs and who thought that he was safe where

18 he was, and who was killed by those who were supposed to

19 help in this defence. They brought us to Travnik in

20 front of the hospital. There we were given first aid,

21 and they offered it to those who were in need of it.

22 After that, they drove us to where we asked to be

23 taken.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Now, Prosecutor, Witness J has

25 visibly suffered from this, so maybe if you could just

Page 4079

1 focus on a few points, maybe some exhibits might be

2 presented, I assume you have additional questions. If

3 you could put them in line with what we said earlier

4 on.

5 Examined by MR. KEHOE

6 Q. Yes, Mr. President. I would like at first to show the

7 witness, Witness J, Exhibit 132. It need not go on the

8 ELMO, it is a map which is an enlargement of Exhibit 50,

9 Defence counsel, the witness and your Honours can look

10 at it and examine the locations, revealing the actual

11 locations on the ELMO will, of course, identify the

12 witness.

13 Mr. President, there are two locations on here,

14 number 1 and number 2, and Witness J, correct me, but

15 the house that you were living in on the morning of

16 16th April is listed as number 1, is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the house that you have identified as Vlado, that is

19 Vlado Santic's house, that is number 2, is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Witness J, you and your family were Muslims, is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And Vlado Santic's house was not damaged on that day,

25 was it?

Page 4080

1 A. No, not by a single bullet.

2 Q. Vlado Santic is a Croat, is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When your husband was murdered on the morning of

5 16th April, how was he dressed?

6 A. My husband was wearing a black cotton T-shirt and

7 longjohns. When I told him the shooting had started he

8 was only able to put on socks and that was how he was

9 killed and that is how he remained, under the blanket.

10 Q. So he was in his night clothes, the clothes that he had

11 worn to bed that night?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You and your children were also in your bed clothes?

14 A. Yes, we were also in our pyjamas.

15 Q. Your husband was home on leave from the front-line in

16 Turbe, was he not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And he was in the army of the BiH, correct?

19 A. No, not at that time. It had still not been formed. It

20 was TO. After his death, the army was established.

21 Q. Did he bring his weapon home from the front-line?

22 A. No, they were not allowed to do that because the weapons

23 were always left in the command in Travnik. We had

24 nothing, we did not have hand grenades or anything.

25 Q. Was your father-in-law living in that house with you on

Page 4081

1 16th April?

2 A. Yes, my father-in-law lived with us and in the morning

3 he went out, we had an outhouse and he stayed there for

4 a while and at that moment, the shooting started. He

5 never came back. We still do not know where he is, he

6 is still missing. He has not been accounted for dead or

7 alive. We asked the Red Cross, we tried to find out

8 something, anything, but we could not.

9 Q. So you have never seen or heard from him again after the

10 morning of 16th April?

11 A. Nothing.

12 Q. You mentioned the first group of soldiers that came to

13 Vlado Santic's house and they had --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- camouflage uniforms on?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. They came after you had run across the field and you

18 were being shot at, is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you were being shot at running from your house to

21 Vlado Santic's house, were you carrying your daughter

22 with you?

23 A. No, I led her and my son at that time was 2 years and 2

24 months old and he was carried by the neighbour. When

25 they started shooting, I just threw her to the ground

Page 4082

1 and I covered her with my body.

2 Q. The second group of HVO soldiers, we had the first group

3 in camouflage, the second group had camouflage uniforms

4 and they had white belts on?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did they discuss whether or not they were going to kill

7 you and the other Muslims that were there?

8 A. They were asking each other what to do with us, that is

9 that second group, whether to kill us or whether to go

10 to the headquarters in Pican's cafe to ask them what to

11 do with us.

12 Q. Witness J, was there ever an attempt by any member of

13 the HVO to try to protect the Muslim civilians on the

14 morning of 16th April 1993?

15 A. No, we were not, even though my neighbour called them by

16 their names, she knew them, she was a native of Ahmici,

17 but nobody responded or came to our aid.

18 Q. Did you ever recover your husband's body or your

19 father-in-law's body?

20 A. No, never. It is painful to me when my children ask me

21 when they will visit the grave of my husband, I do not

22 know what to tell them, because we do not know where he

23 is.

24 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Mr. President. (Pause).

25 Mr. President, we have some identifying information

Page 4083

1 concerning this particular witness and I would ask if we

2 go into private session at this point and just identify

3 some of these individuals.

4 JUDGE JORDA: So we will go into a private session to

5 protect the identifying material that you are going to

6 have to give to the court.

7 (In private session)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

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Page 4086

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (In open session)

21 JUDGE JORDA: So now we are back in public session, but you

22 are still subject to the same protective measures.

23 Please counsel, proceed.

24 MR. NOBILO: Thank you.

25 Witness J, the UNPROFOR tank, when you saw it

Page 4087

1 picking somebody up by the mosque, when was that, what

2 time?

3 A. I do not know, I did not have a watch on my wrist.

4 Q. But what time of day, was it in the afternoon or the

5 morning?

6 A. It was in the afternoon. I just know that we saw the

7 first tank some time around 4.00. We saw them coming

8 because there was another group of women who caught up

9 with us and the young son of one of my neighbours had a

10 wrist watch, so I knew what time it was.

11 Q. So what time was it on that watch?

12 A. About 4.00 in the afternoon.

13 Q. When they were picking people up by the mosque, did you

14 see who got on to the tank?

15 A. No, I did not. The mosque is further away and I was in

16 the shed and I did not dare go out.

17 Q. Tell me, did you see your husband being killed or did

18 you only hear the shooting?

19 A. I did not see the soldiers, but I saw him fall by the

20 door, because I was standing behind the door, it was

21 ajar and he was just standing there with his hands up.

22 Q. Thank you. You told the investigators of the Tribunal

23 earlier on that your husband belonged to the

24 312th Motorised Brigade of the BH-Army, is that true?

25 A. Afterwards it was formed as such. Perhaps I was a bit

Page 4088

1 confused when I was speaking, because I knew the brigade

2 that he was supposed to belong to afterwards when I was

3 seeking aid for my children, but at the time of his

4 life, it was the TO, the Territorial Defence.

5 MR. NOBILO: No further questions, your Honour.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Nobilo. Now Mr. Kehoe, maybe you

7 have some additional questions, do you?

8 MR. KEHOE: I do not have an additional question,

9 Mr. President, but I have been reminded by my colleague

10 that the photograph 133/2 is a photograph of Witness J

11 and we would like to also ensure that that is under

12 seal, given the fact that she is a protected witness.

13 With that note, I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, of course. That is a good point. So you

15 do not have any further questions, so Witness J, I am

16 looking at my fellow judges, whether they have any

17 additional questions. Judge Riad?

18 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, I am sorry to call you Witness J,

19 because I cannot say your name. When the soldiers, when

20 the people knocked at your door in the morning, did you

21 look from the window to see what they looked like, or

22 did you see afterwards if they were soldiers? Did they

23 announce themselves as soldiers?

24 A. No, they did not knock at all. They had shot a burst of

25 gunfire because the door was locked and that is how they

Page 4089

1 opened it and walked in. I did not see them.

2 Afterwards my neighbour told me that she saw them and

3 she saw three soldiers.

4 Q. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted), all the houses that I knew were Muslim houses

10 were on fire.

11 Q. You mentioned that when you were running towards the

12 house, what was the other house, Vlado's house, you were

13 running in the fields with your child, you were shot

14 at.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you have any men with you, any fighting men with you

17 running, or were you just women and children running or

18 men without arms, and who was shooting at you? Could

19 you explain that a little bit?

20 A. As I told you, my neighbour, her sister-in-law, my son,

21 who wore my skirt over his pants, my younger child, my

22 mother-in-law, my sister-in-law, they were the first

23 group that was running across the field. Because my

24 little daughter did not want to leave her father to

25 burn, I stayed on a bit longer in front of the house

Page 4090

1 where I had been staying before. They had already run

2 across half of the field and I had not even started.

3 They continued to run and I was only halfway when earth

4 fell all over me, because this was a stronger

5 detonation. I could not tell from what direction it was

6 coming, because they were shooting from all sides. They

7 hid behind the bushes that you can see towards Vlado's

8 house. They told me when I could go on running. Then

9 I continued to run, I joined them, then we all moved to

10 Vlado's shed because that was the only place we could

11 get into, because everything else was padlocked. We did

12 not have a thing, we were not even dressed properly.

13 Q. So I gather from what you said that there was shooting

14 just at anybody who was moving, regardless of what it

15 was?

16 A. Everything, it did not matter who it was, small, big,

17 young, old, male, female, they were killing everyone.

18 Q. Then when you arrived beside Vlado's house, you said

19 that soldiers from the HVO with the insignia of the HVO,

20 asked what to do with you and said, "why do we not kill

21 them", and went to get instructions. Did they come back

22 with the instructions or did they disappear after that?

23 A. They did not come back. In the meantime, the tanks

24 started arriving, so that was our salvation and we got

25 out. They did not come back soon after they had left.

Page 4091

1 We stayed on and waited, according to their orders, but

2 the tanks and personnel carriers started coming in and

3 we boarded them.

4 Q. You heard them say that Vlado's house was not burnt

5 because it was the house of a Croat.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So if it was not the house of the Croat, it would have

8 been burnt too?

9 A. Probably, according to what they were saying, and

10 according to my own view, because really all Muslim

11 houses that morning were in flames, and all the houses

12 I knew to be Croat houses were not burning at all.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Witness J, I only have one little

15 question for you. Judge Riad asked you a little while

16 ago about the time when the second group of soldiers

17 came, and they asked what they should do with you and

18 your family, and I think you had said earlier on that

19 one of them said, "shall we kill them or shall we go to

20 the headquarters at Pican's cafe to ask what we should

21 do with them?". All I want to know is whether you were

22 familiar with Pican's cafe and with the headquarters at

23 the cafe to which the speaker was referring.

24 A. No, I did not know about it at all, I did not know about

25 any kind of headquarters. Not only me but no one else,

Page 4092

1 nobody had thought that something like that would

2 happen. I hardly ever went by there, I had very young

3 children and I had a lot to do for them.

4 Q. Did you understand what kind of headquarters they were

5 referring to?

6 A. When they said "the headquarters", I realised it was

7 something that belonged to them, not the Muslims.

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE JORDA: There we are, Witness J, thank you very much.

10 You said what you wanted to say. Is there anything you

11 would care to add?

12 A. I do not know if I can ask you this, but I will

13 try: will I ever find out anything about my husband's

14 body and my father-in-law's body and where their graves

15 are?

16 JUDGE JORDA: I can understand and my fellow judges

17 understand your concern. It is not within the judges'

18 powers per se to meet your concerns, but I think that as

19 far as the Office of the Prosecution goes, through this

20 trial and the material emerging, efforts will be made to

21 act and all we can do is hope. We do not have any

22 direct means, but we have heard your appeal and I think

23 on the side of the Prosecution it has been heard and in

24 particular by the Witness Protection Unit, that with the

25 people to deal with, so do not hesitate, stay in touch

Page 4093

1 with them, write to them and perhaps there will be some

2 results forthcoming.

3 Thank you very much, Witness J, now you may return

4 home and I do hope insofar as it is possible, that you

5 will find some peace of mind.

6 Maybe the Registrar could ask the usher to show

7 the witness out, but do not move for a second, madam, we

8 are going to pull down the blinds so you may not be

9 identified because we are in a public session. Thank

10 you.

11 (The witness withdrew)

12 JUDGE JORDA: So we are in a public session, Mr. Cayley?

13 Counsel, is the following witness protected? I take it

14 he is not, because the Registrar is removing everything,

15 so there is no protection for this next witness and you

16 are going to tell us, just as your colleague did very

17 briefly, what the purpose of your calling this witness

18 is and what you want him to say. Before we bring in the

19 witness, please proceed.

20 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President, your Honours,

21 learned counsel. The next witness is a man by the name

22 of Colour Sergeant Andre Kujawinski. He was a platoon

23 sergeant with the Cheshire Regiment while they were

24 serving as a component force of the UN Protection Force

25 in the former Yugoslavia. He served in Bosnia from

Page 4094

1 November 1992 to May 1993. He was in Vitez on the

2 morning of 16th April and was a witness to the

3 large-scale property destruction that occurred that

4 morning in the village -- in the town, I am sorry.

5 On the afternoon of 16th April, he was in Ahmici,

6 and he saw the aftermath of the attack. He observed a

7 large number of corpses of women and children lying in

8 open ground. He then witnessed, and in fact this will

9 tie in with the previous witness who has just testified,

10 a large number of women and children fleeing the

11 village, to whom he eventually returned and rescued and

12 took to Travnik. In fact this lady who has just

13 testified may well be one of the individuals who he

14 rescued and took to Travnik.

15 He remained in the village of Ahmici that day, he

16 witnessed again the large scale property destruction,

17 houses were still burning. He also saw the destruction

18 of livestock, the deliberate shooting of animals in the

19 village. On 17th April, the witness returned to Vitez

20 and encountered a woman who had been raped and whose

21 husband had been shot in front of her and whose property

22 had been stolen.

23 Later that day, he returned to Vitez and rescued

24 what he thought were -- what he had been led to believe

25 were three injured Croat women, but who transpired to be

Page 4095

1 three HVO soldiers, who he took to the military hospital

2 at Nova Bila.

3 Finally, this witness was involved in the recovery

4 of bodies in a village called Miletici, up near the Serb

5 front-lines, where a number of Croat men had been killed

6 by the Mujahedin.

7 The problem, your Honour, in presenting the

8 evidence in the manner in which you suggested, and

9 I have no objection to what has been suggested, I think

10 it will speed things up tremendously, is that this was a

11 witness who remained in the area in Bosnia, Central

12 Bosnia, for many, many months. If he gives his

13 testimony in a narrative form he will be speaking of a

14 series of connected events, many of which are completely

15 irrelevant to this trial. The events which are relevant

16 to the trial are a number of disconnected events for

17 which I will need to lead him in his evidence.

18 Mr. Hayman has interviewed a number of these people and

19 he knows, they have a lot of information which is

20 neither relevant for the Prosecution or the Defence.

21 I will try my best to allow the witness to speak freely,

22 but I fear if I just allow him to talk on, we will have

23 much evidence that has no relevance to this trial at

24 all, but I will do my best.

25 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. That makes things clearer and as I

Page 4096

1 said, we can really focus on the essentials. If I have

2 understood rightly, what you are looking for in this

3 witness is his testimony as to the destruction, to

4 damage and then 17th April when he came back to Vitez

5 and then participation in picking up the bodies, that is

6 what you are going to be stressing, is it?

7 MR. CAYLEY: I think the points that I would stress are the

8 property destruction in Vitez and Ahmici, a large number

9 of bodies in Ahmici and also a point, actually, which

10 I did not recall, the presence of a very large number of

11 Croat soldiers just outside Ahmici on 16th April 1993.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Okay, fine. So we are going to proceed in the

13 same manner, we are going to do it basically the same

14 manner. As we the judges told you, it is your witness

15 and you can interrupt him. The account he is going to

16 be making will be guided by you, I think that is very

17 worthwhile, and then when he is done it will be for you

18 to ask him for further information on points which you

19 think are of the most importance. Needless to say, you

20 may interrupt him, but do not interrupt him too often,

21 because otherwise we will not speed things up at all, on

22 the contrary. But now it is clear to me what you are

23 looking for, the Defence also knows, so things are

24 perfectly clear to all the parties.

25 It has taken us three minutes, but I think these

Page 4097

1 three minutes are well spent, Mr. Cayley. Let us call

2 Sergeant Andre Kujawinski.

3 MR. CAYLEY: One point, Mr. President, if I may ask him a few

4 preliminary questions about his background? I do not

5 suggest to go through his entire military history.

6 JUDGE JORDA: I was going -- we have already made a lot of

7 headway, Mr. Cayley, with this preliminary introduction.

8 Do not forget that the Defence is watching you closely.

9 If you ask him what he has done since elementary school,

10 the Defence will be unhappy about that, so be very

11 careful, only ask preliminary questions which may be

12 relevant to our proceedings. Is that clear, so just

13 that we focus on those questions, thank you.

14 (Witness entered court)

15 JUDGE JORDA: Sergeant, can you hear me?


17 JUDGE JORDA: Before reading the solemn oath, just tell us

18 your first and last names, please.

19 THE WITNESS: Andre Peter Kujawinski.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 JUDGE JORDA: There is a bit of a problem, the microphone

22 has to be turned on now. You know how these things

23 work. Okay, please repeat your first and last names.

24 THE WITNESS: Andre Peter Kujawinski.

25 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, that was clear. If you please remain

Page 4098

1 standing and read the solemn oath which the usher is

2 going to give you.


4 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Please be seated, Sergeant. This

5 is customary, Sergeant, in your country, that before you

6 sit down you remove your belt, is it?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, well, we keep learning something new

9 every day. Wonderful. So the testimony is going to

10 unfold as follows. The Prosecution, because you are a

11 witness for the Prosecution, is going to put a few short

12 questions to you related to identification. Then you

13 are going to make your statement to the court. You are

14 going to tell us about the events related to the trial

15 of General Blaskic and this has to do with the events in

16 April 1993 when you were stationed in the region

17 concerned by the events and what you saw in terms of the

18 soldiers who were there, paramilitary or military, of

19 the HVO, also participation in collecting bodies, so

20 I would ask you to focus in particular on those events.

21 Counsel for the Prosecution will be leading you,

22 will be keeping what you say focused on these main

23 concerns and then there will be some questions and then

24 needless to say thereafter the Defence and judges will

25 be putting questions to you. Now for purposes of

Page 4099

1 identification, please, Sergeant -- then after the

2 identification, we will be having our recess, so

3 Mr. Cayley, if you would like to begin with

4 identification and then just thereafter we will have our

5 recess.

6 Examined by MR. CAYLEY

7 Q. Thank you so much, Mr. President. Sergeant Kujawinski,

8 you remind me of a drill instructor at the Royal

9 Military Academy at Sandhurst. What year were you born?

10 A. 1965.

11 Q. I think you joined the British army as a private

12 soldier, is that correct?

13 A. I did sir, yes.

14 Q. I think you have served in the United Kingdom, the

15 Falkland Islands, Hong Kong, Germany, Central America

16 and the former Yugoslavia?

17 A. Correct, sir, yes.

18 Q. I think you are currently a colour sergeant instructing

19 officer cadets at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst?

20 A. Yes, sir, correct.

21 Q. I think you served in the former Yugoslavia from

22 November 1992 until May 1993, is that correct?

23 A. That is correct, sir.

24 Q. That was when the Cheshire Regiment was part of the

25 United Nations Protection Force in the former

Page 4100

1 Yugoslavia?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Your position at that time, was that of platoon

4 sergeant, is that correct?

5 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

6 Q. Who was your platoon commander?

7 A. Second Lieutenant Tudor Ellis.

8 Q. Now Captain Tudor Ellis?

9 A. That is correct, sir.

10 Q. Your company commander?

11 A. At the time Major Martyn Thomas.

12 Q. Now Lieutenant Colonel Martyn Thomas?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. I think there were 36 soldiers and (text currently

15 unavailable) in that platoon?

16 A. That is correct, sir, yes.

17 Q. What was your role, what was the job of the platoon

18 sergeant?

19 A. Overall, to maintain discipline, overlook training and

20 the day-to-day general running of the 36 men, sir.

21 Q. I think the majority of your time in the former

22 Yugoslavia was spent patrolling and performing convoy

23 escort duties in and around Central Bosnia, is that

24 correct?

25 A. That is correct, sir.

Page 4101

1 Q. You did this in Warrior armoured personnel carriers, is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

4 Q. I think you were out on the ground a lot, would that be

5 correct to say?

6 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

7 MR. CAYLEY: I just have a couple of questions, Mr. President,

8 then I will be finished.

9 Towards the end of November, your platoon deployed

10 to Kladanj, is that correct?

11 A. That is correct, sir, yes.

12 Q. Your platoon returned from Kladanj to Vitez in December

13 1992?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Later on your whole company went to Tuzla with Colonel

16 Thomas, that was in December 1992?

17 A. Correct, sir, yes.

18 Q. Then in mid January you returned to Vitez where, mid

19 January 1993, where you remained for the rest of your

20 service in the former Yugoslavia?

21 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

22 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President, those are all the

23 preliminary questions I have for the witness.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. We will resume at 11.40.

25 (11.20 am)

Page 4102

1 (A short break)

2 (11.40 am)

3 JUDGE JORDA: Court is in session.

4 (Accused brought in)

5 JUDGE JORDA: Sergeant, you may be seated. Sergeant, can

6 you hear me?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Good. As we agreed with the Prosecution, you

9 are going to make your statement to the court directly;

10 that is to say you are going to be focusing on the three

11 or four points which the Prosecution would like you to

12 address in the context of these accusations against

13 General Blaskic, the destruction, the 17th April, what

14 you did at Vitez, then recovering the bodies, so please

15 focus on that, but do not fear if you should forget

16 anything, Mr. Cayley will briefly redirect you back to it

17 and then there will be questions from Mr. Cayley and

18 questions from the Defence. Please proceed, Sergeant.

19 MR. CAYLEY: Sergeant Kujawinski, a few days before the

20 events of 16th April, I think you had occasion to go to

21 Travnik and then Zenica. Can you tell the court about

22 those two journeys you made and the state in which you

23 found Travnik and Zenica.

24 A. Yes, we were tasked by the Ops Room to go into Travnik

25 to show presence on the ground in the form of vehicle

Page 4103

1 patrols in the Warriors. As we entered Travnik to a

2 roadblock that was on a junction that went up to a place

3 called Guca Gora, the roadblock that was normally there

4 only manned by one or two soldiers was now heavily

5 manned, with people in masks, i.e. balaclavas drawn over

6 their faces.

7 Because of the Summs we were getting, telling us

8 that tension was high in the area, the form now of

9 entering a road block was for one vehicle to enter, the

10 other vehicle to stand off and protect that other

11 vehicle whilst it was in the actual roadblock itself.

12 Upon doing this, the first vehicle seemed to be there

13 for a while, so I then took it upon myself to enter the

14 roadblock with the second vehicle, i.e. my second

15 vehicle, to find out what the hold-up was. The masked

16 men demanded that they should search our vehicles and

17 that they should check our identities.

18 Upon not agreeing to this, only the showing of our

19 ID cards, one of the masked men then proceeded into like

20 a little portacabin hut which was on the left side of

21 the road and came out with a rocket-propelled

22 shoulder-fired launcher, and pointed it at the vehicle

23 in terms that, I believe, saying if we do not go with

24 what they say he is going to fire this at us. I knew

25 this was not possible due to the range he was at, so

Page 4104

1 I said he would not do it, and he then proceeded to aim

2 the rocket-propelled grenade launcher at the drive

3 wheel, which is a sprocket at the front of the vehicle

4 which, if taken out, will stop the vehicle from moving.

5 I then gestured to the man with a finger to wait

6 while I climbed down from the turret of the vehicle,

7 still inside the vehicle, you can do this inside the

8 vehicle, proceeded to the back of my vehicle to take out

9 a shoulder-fired weapon myself, which is a 94 millimetre

10 which is used for taking tanks out and things alike.

11 I extended the launcher, put it on my shoulder, and

12 aimed it towards him in a gesture as he was doing, upon

13 which he then returned to his hut and we passed through

14 the checkpoint on to Travnik.

15 Upon entering Travnik, we found a complete

16 different setting to what was normal in Travnik.

17 Houses, prior to us arriving, had been boarded up with

18 large pieces of wood sloping away from the high-rise

19 buildings that were there and the smaller buildings.

20 Not many people were on the streets, if any at all. We

21 drove up the road. On the right is the school on high

22 ground and some cross firing was going on, just small

23 arms fire.

24 On the right-hand side, we saw a man who we

25 believed to be dead on the right-hand side of the road.

Page 4105

1 We went up, turned round, got around to protect him

2 while one of the soldiers got out from the vehicle and

3 checked that this man was in fact actually dead. He was

4 not, he was just very drunk, so we left him there.

5 We then continued to show a presence, which was

6 what our task was, in Travnik and drive round the town

7 very slowly and carefully observing what was happening,

8 which was not a lot, sir.

9 Q. I think later that day you proceeded to the city of

10 Zenica, is that correct?

11 A. Correct, sir, yes.

12 Q. Can you describe to the court briefly the atmosphere in

13 Zenica? Again, this is a number of days before the

14 events of 16th April 1993.

15 A. That is correct, sir. As mentioned, we were tasked to

16 go to Travnik. The reason for our deployment there with

17 all the platoon vehicles, which is five all in all, now

18 and the OC, Major Thomas, his vehicle, was again to show

19 a presence on the ground. Prior to leaving, we were

20 told that a commander had been kidnapped and four of his

21 bodyguards had been shot and our task now was to get

22 into Zenica and show a presence on the ground again to

23 try and calm people's feelings.

24 Upon driving into Zenica, which is a much larger

25 town, if not a city I suppose, compared to Travnik, the

Page 4106

1 same sort of atmosphere met us. There was no one out on

2 the ground except for soldiers with weapons. There was

3 no civilians out, which was very unusual for Zenica,

4 there is loads of happy people normally walking around.

5 Again there was no signs of any boarding up or anything

6 taking place, but the atmosphere was very still, which

7 was very unusual, as I have said.

8 Q. Let us now move ahead to the events of 16th April, and

9 I will put in front of you a pre-prepared exhibit. You

10 drew certain lines with me on an aerial photograph to

11 assist your testimony so you can represent events on the

12 ground. If I could request that Exhibit 134 be placed

13 in front of the witness? Normally I would ask you

14 questions about these various locations, Colour

15 Sergeant, but if you can just, as you narrate the events

16 of 16th April in Vitez, refer to the aerial photograph

17 and the areas which you marked on that photograph

18 related to your testimony by the numbers next to the

19 particular objects marked?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 JUDGE JORDA: Go ahead, Sergeant, you have the map before

22 you, so if you give your account and just point to

23 wherever.

24 A. We were tasked in the morning to drive down the main

25 street of Vitez itself, which is the area marked as box

Page 4107

1 1, going all the way --

2 JUDGE JORDA: Sergeant, you need but refer to the figure,

3 this is a public session, we have these letters here so

4 as you give your account, you have the document before

5 you, you can say it is the main street, this is 1, with

6 the figure 1, so just try to keep it brief with the

7 pointer. The public sees this as well as we do, so it

8 is perfectly clear. Go right ahead, Sergeant.

9 A. So we drove down the main high street, all the way down

10 in the area of box 1, where we saw large amounts of

11 destruction of houses, on the left mainly, and on the

12 right side of the road. This took the form of houses

13 still on fire, houses smouldering away, furniture all

14 strewn from houses and thrown about the road and the

15 area of the houses, broken glass, curtains blowing in

16 the wind and general destruction of the property in the

17 forms of houses, walls and roofs all scattered about the

18 road.

19 As we were driving down through that area, we

20 noticed a victim lying on the left-hand side of the road

21 in a blue, dark blue top which I was led to believe was

22 an old man. He was dead on the side of the road. We

23 continued to drive down very slowly, at crawling speed,

24 all the way down to point 3, which we commonly used as a

25 turn-around point. We turned around and we then drove

Page 4108

1 back up to the area or back through the area of Vitez.

2 As we approached area number 2, coming back, it was

3 unusual to note that the fact that area 2 was not as --

4 was not as affected as area 1 was, there were just

5 several houses in this area destroyed in the same way as

6 area 1.

7 We then drove up into area 4, which we used to

8 call the built-up area, because it was high-storey flats

9 and that. We drove round this area in no set pattern,

10 just checking everything. In this area here, there were

11 no signs of destruction, there were just signs -- there

12 were no signs of nobody out, everyone was out of the way

13 and I refer to it as a ghost town basically, nobody

14 there.

15 We then drove from area 4 on to area 5 by the

16 football stadium. As we entered that area, we drove

17 down and stopped somewhere round by the stadium looking

18 down the road towards point 7 where we noticed some

19 movement on the left-hand side of the road. I stopped,

20 or I told the vehicle to stop. We observed with the

21 hand-held sights that we have from our weapons to notice

22 that it was a dog of a description on the left-hand side

23 of the road. We drove down again very cautiously and

24 slowly, noting what was around us and when we got to

25 point 6, we noticed a very young boy, an age of

Page 4109

1 approximately 6, which I referred to as my son, because

2 he was in that age group at the time. The puppy was

3 alive, it was walking around him and it had come to rest

4 every now and then in his arm. The boy was laid in an

5 unusual way, as if he had fallen there, and as we drove

6 a little further to look at him, we could see he had

7 been shot in the centre of the forehead.

8 We then continued down to point 7 just beyond the

9 houses, which again we used to use as a common

10 turn-around point on the grass; turned round, looked

11 back down to area 5, drove past the body again, now on

12 the right, back to area 5 and then reported back to the

13 school at Vitez.

14 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, can I clarify some points at this

15 stage, or do you wish me to wait until the end of the

16 testimony to clarify some issues?

17 JUDGE JORDA: Whichever you prefer, so it is not a matter of

18 going ahead with questioning just to come back to some

19 points to clarify them. Briefly please, just question

20 and answer.

21 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Colour Sergeant, when

22 you actually entered the town, could you hear any firing

23 of weapons of any sort?

24 A. Yes, sir. We could hear small arms fire, large amounts

25 of small arms fire and we could hear off to the right,

Page 4110

1 we believe, mortar fire of some large -- weapons being

2 fired.

3 Q. Did you actually see any weapons being fired?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Did you see any soldiers on that particular occasion in

6 the town of Vitez?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. Did you see any military engagement between two opposing

9 forces in Vitez that morning?

10 A. No, sir, I did not.

11 Q. I think in the early afternoon of that same day you were

12 then tasked to go to the village of Ahmici to collect or

13 assist in the collection of an armoured personnel

14 carrier that had broken down in the village, is that

15 correct?

16 A. That is correct, sir, yes.

17 Q. Again the same procedure as before, I will present you

18 with an exhibit which you have marked and then if you

19 can narrate the account of events in Ahmici on that day,

20 so if the witness could please be given Exhibit 135?

21 Two copies again, please, one in front of him and one on

22 the ELMO.

23 Following the photograph, just narrate the

24 events. If you can commence with telling the court at

25 approximately what time you arrived in this area and

Page 4111

1 from where?

2 A. Yes, sir. In the early afternoon, I was tasked from the

3 Ops Room at the school --

4 Q. Can we just clarify a point? What do you mean when you

5 say "the Ops Room"?

6 A. The operations room which was the main cell for

7 information from the school.

8 Q. That is the brain of the battalion where people are

9 tasked, where intelligence is being gathered, is that

10 correct?

11 A. That is correct, sir. You must book in when you arrive

12 there and you must book out reporting any incidents that

13 have happened en route.

14 Q. Please continue.

15 A. Yes, sir. We were tasked in the early afternoon to go

16 to a grid, I was given a grid to report to, where a

17 Scimitar vehicle, which is a smaller scale of a Warrior,

18 had broken down along into another unit of 9th and

19 12th Lancers. Myself and a crew and a REME vehicle,

20 which is basically the people that fix vehicles,

21 proceeded down towards this grid. As we approached the

22 area of the Zenica turnoff which went around the back

23 way to Zenica, there is a long stretch of road going

24 town towards a small hill. As we approached, we could

25 see on the horizon lots and lots of smoke billowing out

Page 4112

1 from an area on the left-hand side.

2 We moved quickly down the road until we approached

3 the area of 1. As we hit this area, we then slowed

4 right down again to crawling speed and moved from point

5 1 to point 2 on the main road. As we moved through

6 there at this slow speed, we noticed lots of houses on

7 fire, lots of houses destroyed and smouldering and to

8 the left of the road, lots of bodies, women and children

9 strewn about the fields, which in a -- in a manner of

10 which they were fleeing, i.e. they were in the open

11 basically, they were not protected.

12 We continued at slow speed to the right-hand side

13 of the Catholic cemetery, we followed the road to the

14 left and just before you hit point 3, we noticed that at

15 point 3 on a doorstep there was a man and a child which

16 we presumed were father and son. The father had his

17 left arm around his son, both were dead, with a large

18 amount of thick red blood from the father's head, and a

19 dog was licking the blood up.

20 We then continued, again at slow pace, down the

21 hill towards the area of box 4. By now, my mind had

22 switched back to what I was supposed to have been doing,

23 which was picking up a vehicle. I got to point 4, again

24 very slow, and I noticed to the left some movement.

25 I told the vehicle to stop. As I looked over to the

Page 4113

1 left, a woman stood up and she had her hands clasped

2 together and she was crying and asking us to help her.

3 I told her in actions to wait for ten minutes and that

4 I would return to help her. I then ordered one of the

5 soldiers to get out of the back of the vehicle, told her

6 to stay behind the mud bank that she was by and told him

7 to cover them up with some leaves and branches that were

8 about the area.

9 We then continued down the road, again at a slow

10 pace, trying to find my bearing now, trying to find my

11 location on the map, past point 5. As we passed it,

12 I noticed people on the left-hand side.

13 I continued out to point 6, which is a large

14 turn-around area which again was commonly used, a very

15 wide-angle berth on the river. I turned around, I told

16 the driver to stop and as we looked back at point 5,

17 which we commonly referred to as the Swiss chalet,

18 I noticed a large amount of soldiers in dark uniforms in

19 and around the chalet area. It was a large house, like

20 an apex house, with a very huge forecourt, patio-style

21 thing on the front. This was full of soldiers. This to

22 date was the largest number of soldiers that I have seen

23 together on the tour of Yugoslavia or the former

24 Yugoslavia.

25 I then made my way again slowly towards point 5.

Page 4114

1 When I got there or as we were approaching, it was very

2 unusual to notice that these soldiers were all commonly

3 dressed the same, in very dark uniforms, which was

4 unusual. Soldiers normally mixed dress, i.e. civilian

5 tops or bottoms or vice versa, with a military top or

6 whatever. They all had weapons and they were all

7 drinking beer from bottles and cans. They were very

8 happy, they were cheering, they were waving the bottles

9 in the air towards us, gesturing towards us and the

10 rifles and waving them in the air.

11 At this point then, anger took over. I told the

12 vehicle to stop, I traversed the turret of the tank

13 towards these people and aimed the gun at them. I had

14 done this because I basically put one and one together,

15 the scenes that I had seen and all these so-called

16 soldiers in this area and come up with a conclusion.

17 I then drove off past point 4, again these people

18 appeared behind the mud bank. I told them to stay

19 there, then drove up the road until I came to the area

20 marked here where I knew my grid was now to turn off to

21 come up this road, up this track, again noticing, as

22 I was driving down this road towards point 7, that there

23 were again lots of houses on fire, burning and

24 destroyed, as I was heading towards that point 7.

25 I got to point 7, I turned my vehicle round to let

Page 4115

1 the recovery vehicle pass through, because at this point

2 now we had spotted the broken-down vehicle. He went in

3 to assist with the fixing of this vehicle, whilst we

4 moved forward to where the figure 7 is, the very bottom

5 of it, to protect him whilst he done this and we looked

6 south in this area here, whilst he carried out fixing

7 it. The area where he was in area 7 was like houses

8 that had not been destroyed, that were very old, they

9 had been neglected, they were falling down, the beams

10 were rotten et cetera, and they continued in that area

11 for a period of time to try and fix this vehicle that

12 had broken down.

13 Whilst they were doing that, as I said, we gave

14 them some protection. We then heard gunfire of some

15 sort coming from the north here (indicates) on the high

16 ground. We then traversed the turret again to observe

17 where this was coming from, but we could not pinpoint

18 the gunmen's location so we used a method taught in

19 training, which is a crack and thump method. When the

20 bullet travels through the air from the muzzle of the

21 rifle it makes a crack, which gives you the direction of

22 where the weapon is fired and then you get a thump,

23 which is where the bullet displaces the air and that

24 gives you where the weapon is actually firing to.

25 We used this method and we looked in towards the

Page 4116

1 area marked 8. Traversed the turret round to face that

2 way, which is south, and we noticed several amounts of

3 cattle strewn throughout the field which were dead, with

4 the exception of this one that was constantly being

5 shot, it would fall down, the rifle men would shoot

6 again -- the cattle would get up, it would shoot again,

7 it would fall down and this happened several time until

8 the cattle stayed down.

9 The vehicle was then unfixable, the REME was attached

10 it to themselves and they towed it out. We went back

11 then the same route as mentioned down the track, turned

12 right past point 1 and headed off back towards the

13 garage, first of all to drop off the broken-down vehicle

14 with the REME, and then I reported as normal back into

15 the school, into the Ops Room to say that I am back, and

16 reported what I had seen and informed them that I had to

17 go back to point 4 to pick up some people.

18 I took another vehicle with me, went back to point

19 4 at speed. As we entered point 4, I stopped and loaded

20 these people up. There now was 13 women, two children

21 and later, just as we were closing the doors, a very

22 young man came running from a fenced area. We took them

23 on board, all 16 of them; even though you cannot get

24 them into a vehicle, somehow we managed. We closed the

25 door, we turned around.

Page 4117

1 Before turning around, I looked to my rear at the

2 other vehicle and he was doing the same movement, he had

3 reversed back and he was now loading people on that had

4 fled from a house on the left-hand side as we were

5 looking back.

6 At great speed then we moved to Travnik hospital.

7 As we made our way back there, one of the women in the

8 back was fainting, so we had to open the roof of the

9 Warrior vehicle. We gave them tea and biscuits from

10 inside the vehicle, and they were very emotional, upset,

11 distraught, as we drove up to Travnik. Once we got

12 there, we then entered the hospital where doctors and

13 nurses came out to us, we opened the back of the vehicle

14 and these people then got out of the vehicle. One of

15 them in particular was what appeared to be a very young

16 girl who had some sort of Down's Syndrome and disability

17 to the fact that her legs could not close, her legs just

18 looked like one continuous bone and she was cradled by

19 an older woman, presumably her mother.

20 Another woman that got out of the vehicle was a

21 very old woman and she was very upset by this time, and

22 she cuddled me and held on to me and she would not let

23 go, even though the doctors were pulling her away. We

24 both became emotional to that point. We then left them

25 in the hospital and we then moved back towards the

Page 4118

1 school to report back in, to tell them what we had done

2 and waited to be tasked from there.

3 MR. CAYLEY: Just a few questions to clarify a couple of

4 matters.

5 Mr. Usher, if you could -- you said that in the

6 village of Ahmici when you were driving from points 1

7 and 2 you saw a number of bodies of women and children

8 on the left-hand side of the road; do you recall how

9 many bodies you saw?

10 A. Yes, sir, a rough figure of 13, sir, as we were counting

11 them, that was from point 1 to 2 and when we came back

12 and drove up to point 7, sir.

13 Q. These women and children were in open ground?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Can you explain to the court, if you can recall, the

16 women, how were they dressed?

17 A. They were dressed in clothing that we have seen before,

18 which is the long silk or cotton gowns with the head

19 scarves on, sir.

20 Q. They were dressed in normal Muslim attire?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 MR. CAYLEY: If you could just look at the photograph and if

23 a copy could be placed on the ELMO, I think this is a

24 photograph you took at the time in Ahmici.

25 JUDGE JORDA: Now you have those three pictures before you,

Page 4119

1 Sergeant, could you make a few comments on these

2 pictures? Did you take all three of these, is that

3 right?

4 A. I can only see one at the moment, sir. Yes, I did take

5 this photograph on the first passage from point 1 to

6 point 2 as we drove past the village. Everywhere I went

7 I carried a camera with me and I also made a diary every

8 day.

9 MR. CAYLEY: Can you describe to the court what this

10 photograph shows?

11 A. Yes, sir, it is the left-hand side of the road as we

12 were driving from point 1 to 2 and it shows to the rear

13 houses still burning, it shows destruction on the left

14 and in this particular photograph it shows here and here

15 (indicates) two bodies in the open, sir.

16 Q. Can you now refer to the next photograph?

17 A. Yes, sir, this is now once we had dropped off the

18 broken-down vehicle at the garage, returned to the

19 school to tell them that I had to go back to pick up

20 some people that I had told I would be back for and the

21 photograph, again taken by myself, is from the back of

22 my vehicle. You just note here the antenna, taken back

23 towards the other vehicle. We have now loaded up with

24 the people from behind the mud bank which is here to the

25 right (indicates) and this other vehicle is loading up

Page 4120

1 with other people that have come from a house pointed

2 out on the left-hand side.

3 At the last minute, as I mentioned, a very young

4 man came running from this fenced area here to get into

5 the back of my vehicle, sir.

6 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Mr. Registrar, those exhibits are

7 136/1 and 136/2, the two photographs.

8 Just a couple of very brief points, Colour

9 Sergeant. You said at the Swiss chalet that you saw a

10 large number of soldiers drinking beer. Approximately

11 how many did you see at the Swiss chalet?

12 A. I would recall it as a company sized group, sir, which

13 in British military terms is approximately 100 men, sir.

14 Q. Did you notice any badges on these soldiers?

15 A. Yes, sir. I noticed on one of the left forearms a

16 shield that was coloured red, white and blue with

17 something above it, but I do not know what. I have no

18 memory of that, no distinct memory, sorry.

19 Q. You say these soldiers were drinking beer and toasting

20 you, is that right?

21 A. That is correct, sir.

22 Q. You say that you were extremely angry. What actually

23 prevented you from taking any action against these

24 soldiers?

25 A. Discipline, sir, good training, amongst other things.

Page 4121

1 Q. You mentioned at point 7 on this photograph that there

2 were a number of houses behind you that were

3 dilapidated, not burnt but in fact dilapidated and

4 left. How many?

5 A. Two, sir, I guess. Two.

6 Q. Finally, the people that you transported, the villagers

7 that were fleeing that you put in the back of your

8 vehicle and the other vehicle, can you describe in more

9 detail their state, how they were, how they seemed?

10 A. The ones we picked up from behind the mud bank?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Very distraught, sir. They wanted to get away, they

13 were -- initially when we got there, one of the women

14 was praying, her hands clasped like so. When we

15 actually got them into the back of the vehicle, they

16 were trembling, they were frightened, they were

17 distraught. Just scenes of unpleasantness, sir.

18 Q. The houses in Ahmici, were any of them fortified in any

19 way?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. Did you see any dead soldiers lying around on the

22 ground?

23 A. I saw no dead soldier, sir. I saw one male, that was

24 all, sir.

25 Q. With the young child at point 3?

Page 4122

1 A. That is correct, sir.

2 Q. I think now we can move on to the events of 17th April,

3 and if the witness again, so that he can narrate from

4 the photograph as he goes along, if he can be shown

5 Exhibit 137.

6 Colour Sergeant Kujawinski, a point of

7 clarification, the bodies that you saw in Ahmici on your

8 first journey through, when you returned to collect the

9 fleeing villagers, were the bodies still there or had

10 they gone?

11 A. They were still there, sir.

12 Q. Thank you. I would like you to recall the events of

13 17th April, when I think you were tasked to go to Vitez

14 to collect an UNHCR worker and his family.

15 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

16 Q. Could you explain to the court the events of that day?

17 A. Yes, sir. I was tasked now to go -- I was tasked again

18 from the Ops Room to go into the town of Vitez, to

19 extract an UNHCR man and his family from a given place

20 and to withdraw them back to the school, as Vitez was

21 now declared unsafe. We drove again down the main high

22 street, slowly again, down towards the area marked 1, in

23 the built-up area, where we waited and eventually they

24 came out and we picked up a man, his wife and a child

25 with their belongings. They got into the back of the

Page 4123

1 vehicle, we closed the doors and then we drove off back

2 to the main road here, and then continued down the main

3 road, commonly again to the turn-around point, turned

4 around and made our way back up the main road until we

5 hit point 2.

6 As we approached point 2, a very frightened woman

7 ran out from a house. We opened the back doors, she got

8 in, we closed the doors and through the UNHCR man who

9 interpreted, found out that in the last two hours she

10 had been raped twice, money and valuables had been

11 stolen from her and a man had been shot in front of

12 her. We asked if she wanted to come with us to the

13 school; unusually, she said no. I asked her to depart

14 the vehicle, we opened the doors and she went and went

15 back into the house. We then closed the doors and

16 continued back towards the school following the main

17 route and back into the school, dropping off the UNHCR

18 man and his family and reporting back in.

19 Q. If the witness could be shown Exhibit 136/3, I think

20 that morning you actually passed by the Hotel Vitez, did

21 you not?

22 A. That is correct, sir.

23 Q. Although I realise this photograph was not taken on

24 17th April, you made certain observations on that

25 morning outside the Hotel Vitez and, using this

Page 4124

1 photograph as a reference point and a guide to

2 demonstrate to the court what was happening, can you

3 explain to the court the observations that you made?

4 A. Yes, sir. Again there is the photograph taken by myself

5 looking now low down through the vehicle, looking

6 towards the garage way, so on the left here (indicates)

7 is the Hotel Vitez on the top, but to the right here and

8 moreover further to the right by the sides of houses and

9 in and around the houses, the soldiers now had dug-in

10 positions, dug holes to stay protected behind, and built

11 up with sand bags to give themselves protection.

12 As we drove past that morning, we noticed a

13 somewhat unusual but organised changeover between the

14 actual soldiers themselves, i.e. handing over a duty

15 from one man to another. We noted he was handing over

16 because he was pointing out things on the ground --

17 appeared to be pointing out things on the ground,

18 talking to him and then one would leave while the other

19 one stayed there. Again unusual of this to a degree is

20 that everyone had a weapon, they actually kept their

21 weapon with them and moved back and to from this

22 position.

23 Q. How large was this group of soldiers that you saw

24 outside the Hotel Vitez?

25 A. I would equivalent this to a section size, which is

Page 4125

1 eight men, sir.

2 Q. Which is pretty small on the military scale of things?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. They were behaving in a normal disciplined manner, in

5 the manner you would observe as a British soldier?

6 A. Not as professional sir, but yes.

7 Q. But they were acting in an organised manner?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Did they look as if they were under attack?

10 A. No, sir, they were not.

11 Q. They were just milling around?

12 A. Yes, sir, a normal routine, as I would call it.

13 Q. Thank you. One point of clarification. The woman who

14 told you that she had been raped, her money had been

15 stolen, a man had been shot in front of her, how was she

16 dressed?

17 A. In the same way as previously mentioned, sir, this

18 Muslim attire, this long silk or cotton gown with a

19 shawl over her head, I think it was a woollen hat or a

20 head-dress over this, sir.

21 Q. Was there any shooting in Vitez that day, was there any

22 mortar firing or shooting?

23 A. That day, sir?

24 Q. Yes, on the 17th when you went to collect the UNHCR

25 worker?

Page 4126

1 A. Not that I can recall when we went to collect the UNHCR

2 worker, no.

3 Q. We can now move on. If Exhibit 137 could be placed on

4 the ELMO, please? Just to refresh your memory, I think

5 on that afternoon you were requested to pick up three

6 wounded women in the centre of Vitez?

7 A. That is correct, sir.

8 Q. Can you explain to the court, again using the aerial

9 photograph as an indicator of the journey that you made

10 through the town, about those events?

11 A. Yes, sir. I was now tasked again from the Ops Room to

12 drive into Vitez and pick up three wounded women from

13 the hospital. I previously knew this building anyway

14 after doing many journeys through there, but before

15 I left the Ops Room, I clarified that it was still the

16 same hospital, i.e. it had not moved. It was, I went

17 into the village on the normal route down the main road,

18 I then turned off and proceeded to the area of box 3.

19 I got there, nobody came out, which was not unusual at

20 this time, because round by the area of the sports pitch

21 there was some sort of battle going on, small arms fire

22 and mortar fire ringing out.

23 I then ordered the driver to rev the engine nice

24 and loud and beep his horn. Prior to that, sorry, we

25 moved into the box and we broke down a small wall so we

Page 4127

1 could get as close to the building as possible. As

2 I mentioned, then he revved his engine as loud as he

3 could and beeped his horn, but nobody came out. I then

4 got on the radio to the Ops Room and asked them to

5 confirm the grid of where the hospital was at. They

6 gave me the grid, it was the right grid, I confirmed it

7 by looking at the satellite navigation equipment on the

8 vehicle, which pinpoints your position. I was there.

9 I then informed the Ops Room that nobody was at this

10 grid. They told me to come back, pick up an interpreter

11 and make sure that I have got the right location.

12 So I went back to the Ops Room, as told, picked up

13 the interpreter, moved back towards box 3. However, as

14 I was moving there I asked the interpreter to guide us

15 in, i.e. give us directions left, right, by her looking

16 out of a very small window at the back. Lo and behold,

17 we got back to box 3, which is the right location, she

18 did confirm that this was the hospital, and again we did

19 exactly the same, revved the engine and beeped the horn,

20 but nothing happened. I took a decision then that we

21 would get out of the vehicle and we would check the

22 building to make sure that there was nobody inside the

23 building.

24 Myself, along with two other rifle men, Halt and

25 Trainer, I gave them a quick brief, we exited the

Page 4128

1 vehicle, we cocked our rifles to make them ready and we

2 then went through the building checking each room to

3 make sure that it was the right building and to see if

4 anybody was in there. Upon the entrance to the second

5 room of the building, we found on the floor a very old

6 man and a very old woman who I believe had not been

7 killed there, they had been brought there, the reason

8 being they were laid to attention, rigid with their arms

9 by their sides. They had been shot straight in the

10 middle of the forehead, the pair of them, and there was

11 no blood or nothing on the floor. The woman was dressed

12 in the same attire, the Muslim-style clothing, as we had

13 previously seen.

14 I then went out of the building, after looking in

15 a couple more rooms to find nothing, but to confirm that

16 the hospital was not there, back to the vehicle, told

17 the Ops Room what I had seen. I then climbed back into

18 the turret of the vehicle, looked around and when

19 I looked right down the road towards the area marked 4,

20 I could see an old white Peugeot with a red cross on

21 it -- sorry, Citroen. I then presumed that was the

22 ambulance and a medical centre. We drove down there,

23 got to the area, I got out of the vehicle with a rifle

24 man, down to the cellar where the hospital was now

25 confirmed to have moved. All it was, was an old smelly

Page 4129

1 cellar with a couple of civilians in there in white

2 gowns and they were attending to casualties.

3 I went back up, I got the interpreter out of the

4 vehicle, brought her down and requested through her that

5 the three women be handed over for me so I could

6 transfer them to the hospital at Nova Bila. Lo and

7 behold they were not women, they were three, I believe,

8 soldiers, three men who were handed over to me. They

9 were in mixed dress, again either a military top or a

10 civilian trousers or the other way round. I was not

11 happy, I was angry that I was going to be transporting

12 these people. I got on the radio again to tell Zero,

13 "they are not women, they are three men who I believe

14 are soldiers", and Zero told me to carry on with the

15 task in hand. So orders are orders, I carried that job

16 out, but before I did I made it known to the interpreter

17 to translate to the nurses and to the men themselves

18 that I was not happy transporting them.

19 I then requested on the radio through the Ops Room

20 that One Four Echo, which is the ambulance, to come

21 along and assist us with these casualties, the reason

22 being they could not sit up in the vehicle, which is

23 requested really in an armoured vehicle, they had to lie

24 down, due to the nature of their injuries, which was a

25 stomach wound and leg injuries, gunshot wounds that is.

Page 4130

1 One Four Echo arrived, we put them into the vehicles,

2 one in mine, two in the ambulance and we went on our

3 route to Nova Bila hospital.

4 Once we got there, Nova Bila hospital was a church

5 that was now converted into a hospital. All the pews

6 et cetera had been swept aside and inside there were

7 lots of men, again I believe soldiers, all in mixed

8 dress, lined up on the floor in makeshift beds,

9 stretchers et cetera, where nurses and doctors were

10 attending them. We then left them there. I picked up a

11 local commander and then transported him back to the

12 Hotel Vitez, dropped him off, and then moved back to the

13 school, reporting back in at the Ops Room, sir.

14 Q. Colour Sergeant Kujawinski, just a couple of points of

15 clarification. When you went to this what I think you

16 would call a regimental aid post in the centre of Vitez,

17 where soldiers receive immediate medical treatment, how

18 many injured soldiers were in that cellar?

19 A. Approximately seven, sir.

20 Q. You were expecting to receive three injured women, and

21 you said that you received three soldiers. These were

22 HVO soldiers, were they not?

23 A. I believe so, sir, yes.

24 Q. When you moved these HVO soldiers to the hospital at

25 Nova Bila, do you recall how many soldiers there were in

Page 4131

1 there?

2 A. Yes, sir, approximately 30.

3 Q. The local commander that you transported from Nova Bila

4 to the Hotel Vitez, was he a Bosnian Muslim commander or

5 an HVO commander?

6 A. He was HVO, sir.

7 Q. The final part of your testimony is the events that

8 occurred up near the Serb front-lines in a village called

9 Miletici. Without mentioning the name of the individual

10 who you went with, could you explain to the court what

11 happened on 26th April 1993?

12 A. Yes, sir. Again tasked from the Ops Room, a tasking

13 days before, this is, that myself, another one of my

14 vehicles and an armoured Land Rover from the UNHCR with

15 a driver, a woman and an interpreter should move to this

16 village way up in the hills to have a look around and

17 see if any atrocity had taken place.

18 So we moved off, we got to the bottom of the hill,

19 which is on like an S-bend on the main road, and we

20 moved up the side of the hill, moving in the normal way,

21 which was a Warrior, a Land Rover, a Warrior for

22 protection to the Land Rover. We got a distance up the

23 hill to realise that we could not continue any further

24 due to the steepness of the hill, but more importantly

25 to the width of the path, so I left the second vehicle

Page 4132

1 to protect us at the bottom, he stayed on duty whilst

2 myself and the armoured Land Rover made our way up the

3 hill, a very steep hill as mentioned, into this small

4 remote village.

5 We got into this village, which was tiny, houses

6 clear to the eye was approximately 15, 20 at the very

7 most, and we entered a small square in the centre of the

8 village. We stopped, we found it very, very hard to

9 turn the vehicle around, but we managed, and we faced

10 back down the opposite way, the way that we had come.

11 We got out of the vehicle and through the interpreter

12 then, because no one could speak English, which is not

13 unusual, we then started asking questions.

14 The nature of the answers we were getting back at

15 first were very negative, i.e. nothing had happened, so

16 I deployed the soldiers just to generally walk around,

17 friendly, with the weapons, but relaxed, in a friendly

18 manner, just to walk around and see if they could find

19 anything. As the interpreter was talking to people, one

20 of the soldiers discreetly called me over to a house,

21 where I walked over, again detracted the villagers'

22 attention, again noticed on the floor to the rear of the

23 house there were large amounts of dried-up blood on the

24 floor.

25 I then took it on myself to be nosy and started

Page 4133

1 looking in through the windows of this particular house

2 to notice in one of the windows, facing the square, that

3 there was large amounts of blood, thick blood again,

4 dark in colour, strewn upon the wall of the room.

5 I came away from there, made our way back to the

6 interpreter and started probing questions at the locals

7 as to what this blood was on the floor, and so on and so

8 forth.

9 They then started getting what could be described

10 as a bit edgy, a bit touchy about our discovery,

11 I suppose, and they did not want us to go near this

12 house.

13 Time went on from this early morning now and it

14 must be mid afternoon when eventually we found out that

15 local villagers had been tortured and killed in the

16 house. An old woman gave us a story that -- she showed

17 us an old house, a ruined house. She explained that

18 some soldiers had come, they had put them, everybody,

19 into this ruined building, and they started telling

20 people to go away if they were unable to be soldiers,

21 unable to fight. This left several men in this small

22 house, they were then informed by these people who had

23 come along, who we were told now were Mujahedin, that

24 they should take up arms and fight for them, whereupon

25 these people said no. They were then taken into this

Page 4134

1 house that I had mentioned, that I had looked through

2 the window, and several incidents had taken place.

3 We now persuaded, again through the interpreter

4 all this, that we could look in the house. They let

5 myself, the UNHCR woman and the interpreter into the

6 house. We opened the door which swung open to the

7 right, a small hallway, we opened the next door, which

8 is now the room through the window as to which I looked

9 in. To the left was smear marks on the wall, it was a

10 light pink room with smear marks on the wall and a

11 picture of Christ at the last supper with a crucifix, a

12 statue of the crucifix of Jesus above it. To the right

13 was the window which I had looked through and on the

14 floor were large amounts of thick blood with hair

15 mangled within it, a small sofa-like settee piece of

16 furniture was in a bay window by the window which

17 I looked in, that had several holes in it, which

18 I presume were bullet holes and pillows which had been

19 used to muffle the sound of a gunshot with holes and

20 feathers strewn about this settee.

21 The woman told us then that the house was going to

22 become a shrine and no one would be allowed to go near

23 it. We left the house, we informed them then that we

24 could help them, where were the bodies and we could help

25 to bury them, et cetera. They wanted none of this.

Page 4135

1 It was getting dusk and not far after this

2 incident a man came running towards us and warned us to

3 get out of the area quick. We asked why and through the

4 interpreter was told, lots of soldiers were coming and

5 were making their way north towards the front-line with

6 the Serbs. We then very quickly, as you can imagine,

7 got in our vehicles, drove down the hill as quick as we

8 could, picked up the other vehicle, left with the other

9 vehicle.

10 Before leaving, we told them we would come back in

11 the morning with coffins for the people, for the dead

12 people. We then hit the road, hit the S-bend again in

13 the road and were stopped in our path by lots and lots

14 of buses and vehicles, flatbed lorries, dumper trucks

15 et cetera, crowded to the top with soldiers, Muslim

16 soldiers, going off towards a front-line which was only

17 some approximately 8 kilometres up the valley in a

18 northern direction.

19 The soldiers were very friendly, happy, and they

20 jeered at us, laughed with us, no conversation, and they

21 let us through and off we went south back down to Vitez,

22 reported into the Ops Room, told them what we had seen

23 and in the form of the soldiers and what we had seen up

24 in the village and then the next morning, early again,

25 we returned in the same vehicles plus a truck which was

Page 4136

1 carrying the coffins which we had previously picked up

2 that morning from the village on the outside of Vitez.

3 Back up the hill, left one Warrior down below

4 again to guard, off we went back up, with the four

5 tonner now, made it even worse to turn around, turned

6 around and then the bodies were shown to us in a

7 different house and soldiers then removed the bodies,

8 placed them into coffins. We took the names of these

9 people, wrote them on pieces of paper, put them inside

10 the coffin with the deceased person and we wrote and

11 carved as well the names of these deceased people on

12 crosses which we then put into the coffins, put the

13 coffins on the back of the vehicle and we were then

14 instructed by one of the locals through the interpreter

15 again to take them to a church where monks would meet us

16 where they would then be buried. Sir.

17 Q. Just a couple of points of clarification. How many dead

18 males were in the village of Miletici? How many dead

19 bodies did you recover?

20 A. Five, sir.

21 Q. The locals explained to you that these people had been

22 killed by Mujahedin, by Muslim extremists, is that

23 correct?

24 A. That is correct, sir.

25 Q. You said in the transcript it appeared when you met this

Page 4137

1 large group of Muslim soldiers at the bottom of the

2 hill, it states in the transcript they "jeered at you".

3 I think you meant to say they "cheered with you"?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. So these people were friendly towards you?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. The information that had been given to you in the

8 village that they were aggressive in coming up the hill

9 was not true?

10 A. The information was not given coming up the hill, but we

11 were told soldiers were approaching and we had better

12 get out quick.

13 Q. In fact when you got there there was no reason to be

14 rushing off anywhere?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. If the witness could be shown Exhibit 80/3, have you

17 ever seen the accused General Blaskic before?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Can you explain to the court when you saw him and in

20 fact relate this photograph which you have seen

21 previously to when you saw him?

22 A. Yes, sir, I was tasked again from the Ops Room to go to

23 Kiseljak, former Yugoslavian army barracks, which was

24 opposite the Hotel Kiseljak, where the headquarters was

25 for the UN at the time, to pick him up and escort him to

Page 4138

1 a meeting that was taking place in the school with the

2 two warring factions, sir.

3 Q. Do you recall when that was?

4 A. Yes, sir, from my diary it was Wednesday 3rd March,

5 sir.

6 Q. Was there anybody with General Blaskic at the time?

7 A. Yes, sir, he had approximately six bodyguards who were

8 well armed and my job was to then escort them as

9 mentioned to the school.

10 Q. The man in this photograph with the dark sunglasses, do

11 you recall who that was?

12 A. Yes, sir, I recall him as one of the bodyguards. He did

13 not have his sunglasses on that day.

14 Q. He was with General Blaskic on that particular day?

15 A. That is correct, sir.

16 MR. CAYLEY: I have to ask you one or two questions, Colour

17 Sergeant, which -- I am almost finished, Mr. President,

18 I have literally three questions -- I do not

19 particularly want to ask you, but since it is a matter

20 which has been raised in this case, I am going to do so.

21 You will have intimate knowledge of operations on

22 the ground in Bosnia and you will have had a lot of

23 contact with the soldiers in your platoon during your

24 service, is that correct?

25 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Page 4139

1 Q. During your service, did you or any of the soldiers

2 under your command ever supply weapons to any of the

3 forces in Central Bosnia?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Were you or any soldiers in the British battalion ever

6 involved in the burning down of any houses of any

7 faction, of any ethnic group within the former

8 Yugoslavia?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Am I also right in saying that during your service in

11 the former Yugoslavia a British soldier was actually

12 killed, Lance corporal Wayne Edwards, on convoy duty, by

13 a sniper?

14 A. That is correct, sir.

15 Q. Were there any other losses of any other soldiers from

16 the British battalion during their service in the former

17 Yugoslavia?

18 A. Yes, sir, there was a suicide. That is about it, sir.

19 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you very much.

20 Mr. President, if I could ask for the admission of

21 exhibits 134, 135, 137 and the three photographs 136/1,

22 136/2 and 136/3 into evidence.

23 Thank you so much, Colour Sergeant.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Well, I think we are going to have our recess

25 for lunch now. It is 12.55 and we will pick up at 2.30

Page 4140

1 for cross-examination.

2 (12.55 pm)

3 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)























Page 4141

1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE JORDA: The court is in session. Show in the

3 accused.

4 (Accused brought in)

5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, now we will go ahead with

6 questioning. I take it cross-examination will be

7 focused on what was addressed earlier.

8 MR. HAYMAN: Less than 30 minutes, your Honour. Hopefully

9 much less.

10 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, let us all hope so, so that the Sergeant

11 may go about his business as soon as possible. Go right

12 ahead, Mr. Hayman.

13 Cross-examined by MR. HAYMAN

14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you Mr. President, good afternoon, Colour

15 Sergeant.

16 A. Good afternoon, sir.

17 Q. Let me concentrate on your testimony on your visit to

18 Travnik a few days before the conflict on 16th April

19 1993. Do you remember with any more specificity when

20 you visited Travnik?

21 A. Yes, it was the day before the Ahmici conflict.

22 Q. So you believe it was on -- if the conflict was on

23 16th April, that would make it on 15th April 1993?

24 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.

25 Q. Did you see a cross fire, that is a firing -- two

Page 4142

1 apparent groups firing weapons at each other in Travnik

2 on that day?

3 A. I did not see, I heard from the area of the school and

4 from the actual village itself.

5 Q. Did you see any soldiers at all engaged in a fight?

6 A. No, I did not.

7 Q. So the same day, I take it, you visited the town or city

8 of Zenica, is that right?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Would you agree that the situation in Zenica on that day

11 was extremely tense?

12 A. Yes, it was very different from previous visits.

13 Q. Were there new BiH army checkpoints inside the city?

14 A. To my knowledge, no.

15 Q. Were there BiH army checkpoints on the edges or

16 perimeter of the city?

17 A. Again, no.

18 Q. Had the BiH army come out of its barracks in Zenica on

19 15th April 1993?

20 A. I cannot answer that question, no. No, there was lots

21 of soldiers on the streets that specific day.

22 Q. Were they BiH army soldiers?

23 A. I cannot answer that question.

24 Q. That is you did not recognise whether they were one army

25 or a different army?

Page 4143

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Did you visit a location you knew or believed to be the

3 HVO headquarters in Zenica on that day?

4 A. A large hotel on the front, yes.

5 Q. Was it surrounded by other soldiers?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What time were you there, do you recall?

8 A. I do not know what time I got there, but I left -- it

9 was well, dark, midnight, maybe later even.

10 Q. Late in the evening?

11 A. I left, yes.

12 Q. When would you have arrived then?

13 A. I cannot answer that question. It was daylight,

14 though. It was daylight when I arrived.

15 Q. Had you already been to Travnik -- you went to Travnik

16 first and then to Zenica?

17 A. To Travnik, then back to the school and then to Zenica,

18 whatever time later.

19 Q. Was it some time in the afternoon, or are you not able

20 to specify?

21 A. It will have been the afternoon, yes.

22 Q. Let me direct your attention then to 16th April 1993 and

23 ask that Exhibit 134 and 136/3 be made available to

24 you. You described the route you travelled into Vitez

25 on 16th April in reference to Exhibit 134, which will be

Page 4144

1 placed before you in a moment. First, do you recall who

2 you were with on your initial trip into Vitez on the

3 morning of the 16th? Were you with Lieutenant Colonel

4 Thomas or Tudor Ellis or anyone else that you recall?

5 A. I would have been with none of the said. Within the

6 platoon structure, either the sergeant or the platoon

7 commander would take a split within the platoon and

8 command one of the packets, so I would not have been

9 with either of those.

10 Q. You would not have been with either one, is that right?

11 A. Not in this case, no.

12 Q. Do you know if you were the first UNPROFOR

13 representative to travel the route along point 1 on

14 Exhibit 134, or do you know whether others had travelled

15 that route on that day?

16 A. Others had travelled.

17 Q. Do you know who?

18 A. I think it was 1 Platoon.

19 Q. Can you give us an estimate of your visit to Vitez, your

20 initial visit to Vitez, including your visit to point 1

21 on 16th April?

22 A. No, I cannot, I am sorry.

23 Q. Was it in the morning, was it prior to noon?

24 A. It will have been the morning time, at what time,

25 though, I could not say.

Page 4145

1 Q. I take it on that initial trip you did not see any

2 action or fighting by any soldiers of any kind in Vitez,

3 is that correct?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. Did you visit or travel by the Hotel Vitez on that, your

6 first trip into Vitez on 16th April 1993?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Also you should have before you, and perhaps Exhibit

9 136/3 could be placed on the ELMO, and I direct your

10 attention to it. Was this photograph taken on

11 16th April?

12 A. It was not, no.

13 Q. When was it taken?

14 A. A period after that date, I could not specifically say

15 when.

16 Q. Did you transit this point on the morning of 16th April

17 when you visited Vitez?

18 A. Probably, yes.

19 Q. Do you recall whether the sandbags that are depicted in

20 the right-hand half of this -- the foreground right-hand

21 portion of this photograph, were they there on

22 16th April 1993?

23 A. I do not recall them, no.

24 Q. Is that something you think you would have noticed, or

25 are you not sure?

Page 4146

1 A. Probably would have noticed.

2 Q. You do not recall them being there on the morning of the

3 16th, correct?

4 A. I do not recall them, no.

5 Q. So these sandbags we can conclude were put in place on

6 some date after 16th April 1993, to the best of your

7 knowledge?

8 A. I do not recall seeing them on that day you said, the

9 16th. I do not recall seeing them.

10 Q. The photograph was taken within a period of days or

11 weeks after the 16th, or you do not know?

12 A. Days.

13 Q. Can you tell us in what direction we are facing?

14 Specifically, are we looking in this photograph in the

15 direction of the portion of town sometimes referred to

16 as Stari Vitez or the Mahala?

17 A. I do not recall to what you are referring, but as the

18 gun barrel indicated here is pointing, that is pointing

19 on a road that runs level, but it is to the right, of

20 the same road that points towards the garage and to your

21 left here is the actual hotel itself.

22 Q. Is it pointing down on Exhibit 134 from the hotel

23 towards the box labelled number 1?

24 A. No, reference letter A on that exhibit --

25 Q. Is the hotel, correct?

Page 4147

1 A. Correct. It is pointing up the road which is barely

2 visible to letter E.

3 Q. That is going down towards the letter E, in other words

4 from the top to the bottom of the photograph on Exhibit

5 134?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Can you tell us, do you know as of 16th April, the

8 buildings that you see from the end of the road over to

9 the edge of the trees in the middle portion of this

10 photograph, was that the edge of the Muslim-controlled

11 portion of Vitez as of 16th April 1993, to your

12 knowledge?

13 A. I cannot answer that question.

14 Q. Would you agree the sandbags appear to be erected in

15 that direction as a defensive measure in that direction?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. HAYMAN: Later on 16th April, you went towards Ahmici.

18 Those exhibits I am completed with them,

19 Mr. President, perhaps Exhibits 135 and 137 could be made

20 available so they are quickly at hand.

21 Did you depart the BritBat base for Ahmici around

22 14.40 hours on 16th April? That would be 2.40 pm.

23 A. Yes, around there.

24 Q. Would you have arrived at the bungalow or so-called

25 Swiss chalet about that time or a few minutes later?

Page 4148

1 A. Possibly.

2 Q. You headed to that location after you left the base,

3 correct?

4 A. Correct, at speed at first and then slowed right down,

5 correct.

6 Q. So within perhaps 30 minutes or 45 minutes, something

7 like that, you would have gotten there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were the uniforms of the soldiers you saw gathered at

10 the Swiss chalet or bungalow, were they black? Did they

11 appear to be black?

12 A. They appeared to be very dark in colour. We were used

13 to seeing at that time now black uniforms and very dark

14 camouflage uniforms.

15 Q. Can you tell us which these were, or do you not recall?

16 A. No, all I recall is very dark.

17 Q. You do not recall whether they were very dark camouflage

18 or black?

19 A. I do not.

20 Q. On your trip to Ahmici to recover the Scimitar, you have

21 told us that you saw bodies?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Directing your attention to Exhibit 135, did you see any

24 of these bodies in the area of point 7 where the vehicle

25 was recovered?

Page 4149

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you see them in the area of -- strike that.

3 Did you see any of them between point 7 and the

4 junction of the Ahmici road with the main Vitez/Busovaca

5 road; in other words along that road as you were driving

6 up and then down that road, did you see any bodies in

7 that portion of the village?

8 A. This road here? (Indicates).

9 Q. Exactly, the road up from the junction of the Ahmici

10 road and the Vitez/Busovaca road up to point 7, did you

11 see any bodies along that strip?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember approximately how many?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you also see a number of bodies from the main road,

16 that is from the main Vitez/Busovaca road?

17 A. On the left-hand side, yes.

18 Q. Is that where -- did you see more bodies in that

19 location, or do you not recall where you saw the

20 preponderance of the victims that were dead at that

21 time?

22 A. No, I just counted them on the main drag going left and

23 as we turned up the main drag going right, with the

24 exception of the person at point 3.

25 Q. Did one of the Warriors in your party on this trip stop

Page 4150

1 at the mosque in lower Ahmici?

2 A. I do not recall.

3 Q. Let me direct your attention then to 17th April 1993.

4 You went to -- you have told us you went to evacuate the

5 family of a worker for an aid organisation.

6 Approximately how long were you in Vitez on that trip?

7 A. Possibly 30 minutes.

8 Q. Do you remember what part of the day that 30 minutes

9 fell in?

10 A. No, I do not.

11 Q. You went back later on 17th April to Vitez to pick up

12 some casualties, correct?

13 A. From the hospital, correct.

14 Q. From the War Hospital or emergency clinic in Vitez?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. When you were interviewed by Office of the Prosecutor

17 investigators in 1995, did you tell them that on

18 17th April 1993, at approximately 19.20 hours, you were

19 tasked to respond to the medical centre in Vitez to pick

20 up three wounded soldiers? Do you recall telling your

21 interviewers that?

22 A. I do not recall saying that, but yes -- I mean I did say

23 it, but I cannot recall saying it at that specific time,

24 no, i.e. the time of the incident, that is.

25 Q. Turning your attention now to Exhibit 137, and I would

Page 4151

1 ask that it be placed on the ELMO, did you learn on this

2 visit to Vitez that this War Hospital had been moved

3 from the point marked 3 to the point, or the

4 neighbourhood of the point marked 4, correct?

5 A. I did, yes.

6 Q. Would you agree that if the location below E on this map

7 represents the Muslim-controlled portion of Vitez, that

8 the War Hospital was being moved away and had been moved

9 away from the front-line between Croats and Muslims in

10 Vitez.

11 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, objection. The witness has

12 already said he was not aware of where the

13 Muslim-controlled area was in the town. It is a form of

14 answer by suggestion, and I would ask that counsel

15 proceed to another question.

16 MR. HAYMAN: I will move on, your Honour.

17 You took these three injured soldiers to the Nova

18 Bila location, correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Did you go on the main road, which, if you still have

21 Exhibit 134, do you still have that at hand or has it

22 been returned to the custody of the Registrar? On

23 Exhibit 134, did you travel from the new location of the

24 War Hospital in Vitez to the Nova Bila facility along

25 the main road -- tell us how you went.

Page 4152

1 A. I went from the hospital back on to the main road, the

2 main road in the village of Vitez, drove down it past

3 the garage on the right-hand side, rejoined the main

4 road which is not on this map and then on the main road

5 to Nova Bila.

6 Q. That main highway, were you aware at the time that a

7 portion of that main highway between Vitez and Nova Bila

8 was held by the BiH army?

9 A. I was not, no.

10 Q. Did you pass any BiH checkpoints that you recall on that

11 day?

12 A. No, I do not ever recall a checkpoint being close to the

13 school at all.

14 Q. At Nova Bila, you saw a number of wounded soldiers in

15 the church sanctuary, correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. About 30?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Did you visit other parts of the hospital complex, other

20 rooms, patient rooms or facilities and determine how

21 many wounded HVO soldiers were in the other parts of the

22 hospital?

23 A. No, I got out of the vehicle with the injured soldier,

24 I presume soldier, and the ambulance exited their two

25 injured soldiers, moved them into the hospital. I had a

Page 4153

1 quick look around just to see what was happening and

2 I entered only the main place of prayer within the

3 former church.

4 Q. It was full of some of the wounded at least?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now let me direct your attention to your visit to the

7 village of Miletici on 26th April 1993. Can you tell

8 us, is Miletici in the general area of Guca Gora or to

9 the north of Guca Gora, do you know?

10 A. It is to the north west of Vitez, up the only main road

11 going north in the main valley.

12 Q. When you went back the next day on 27th April, did you

13 see the bodies of the five men that had been killed?

14 A. Yes, that is when we had moved them.

15 Q. Had one of them had all of his joints broken, fingers,

16 elbows, knees and so forth?

17 A. The majority, yes.

18 Q. Is that consistent with a form of torture?

19 A. I would say so, yes.

20 Q. Had any of these five bodies been beheaded or something

21 close to it?

22 A. Yes, one of them had had his head, throat, whatever, cut

23 all the way round but was still hanging on, due to the

24 bone, I presume.

25 Q. Were these five men buried in a Catholic cemetery?

Page 4154

1 A. Yes, we were instructed to take them there via the

2 interpreter from a local.

3 Q. So I take it they were Croats, to the best of your

4 knowledge, is that right?

5 A. No, I do not know -- I do not know what they were. It

6 was very confusing then, with putting them into coffins,

7 being told that Mujahedin had killed them, then taking

8 them to the place where Croat flags were flying and then

9 handing them over to monks to bury them with crosses

10 with their names on the crosses.

11 Q. Do you have any information suggesting that they were

12 not Catholics and that they were not Croats?

13 A. I have no information, no.

14 Q. Had all or virtually all the population of this village

15 fled and evacuated when you went on 26th and 27th?

16 A. No.

17 Q. They were living there?

18 A. There was no signs of young men, with the exception of

19 the deceased, everyone was old or very young.

20 Q. As you left the village of Miletici on 26th April, you

21 said you encountered a number of trucks or buses

22 carrying BiH soldiers, is that right?

23 A. That is correct --

24 JUDGE JORDA: A little slower if you would, please,

25 Mr. Hayman. The interpreters are having a tough time

Page 4155

1 keeping up with you. Thank you.

2 MR. HAYMAN: My apologies, Mr. President, to all.

3 Were there between eight and ten of these trucks

4 and buses?

5 A. There was lots of trucks, buses, flatbeds and bulldozer

6 trucks as such, yes.

7 Q. Do you have any estimate of the number of soldiers in

8 this caravan?

9 A. No, I would not -- more than 100, exact number, no.

10 Q. Did some of these soldiers whom you encountered advise

11 you to leave the area?

12 A. No, just the one that came up to Miletici prior and told

13 us to leave. When we got down the bottom they were very

14 cheerful.

15 Q. When you were interviewed in 1995, page 3, did you

16 advise the investigators that on the way:

17 "On the way down the hill from the village, we

18 encountered BiH Army at the base of the hill travelling

19 in about eight to twelve trucks and buses combined.

20 Each truck or bus was filled to their capacity. Some of

21 them advised us in a friendly manner that we should

22 leave the area."

23 A. Yes, if that is what I said, yes.

24 Q. I am asking you -- first of all, is it true, is that

25 correct?

Page 4156

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. We have been told in other portions of this

3 trial that you were given a video made by ITN.

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. Did you provide that video to the Office of the

6 Prosecutor?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know whether they have it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In preparing for your testimony, did you review any Mil

11 Info Summs or situation reports or documents?

12 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, all of this line of

13 cross-examination is completely outside the scope of

14 what the witness stated in his narrative. If we are to

15 follow the rules that you set this morning, that we ask

16 questions with precision --

17 MR. HAYMAN: I have no more questions about the video,

18 Mr. President, but how he prepared for his testimony goes

19 to the testimony itself. I have only a couple of

20 questions.

21 MR. CAYLEY: It is not relevant, Mr. President. That is a

22 matter for the Prosecutor.

23 JUDGE JORDA: No, it is not relevant, Mr. Hayman. The

24 witness has testified and with this new approach we have

25 tried to focus on the key points that we are going to be

Page 4157

1 addressing, so please let us stick to that.

2 MR. HAYMAN: I will take it that the objection has been

3 sustained.

4 Let me direct your attention to 3rd March 1993.

5 You told us that you picked up then Colonel Blaskic in

6 Kiseljak and delivered him to the school, the BritBat

7 base for purposes of some official meeting, correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. At the time, you were aware, were you not, that that

10 portion of the road from Busovaca to Kiseljak, falling

11 between Kacuni and Bilalovac, was held by the BiH Army,

12 correct?

13 A. No, I was not sure of that.

14 Q. What was your understanding of why Colonel Blaskic

15 needed UNPROFOR transportation to get from Kiseljak to

16 the BritBat base?

17 A. Probably for protection.

18 Q. Protection from whom?

19 A. The other side.

20 Q. The BiH Army?

21 A. Yes, the BiH Army.

22 Q. Do you recall BiH Army checkpoints on the road from

23 Busovaca to Kiseljak at this point in time, 3rd March

24 1993?

25 A. I do not, no.

Page 4158

1 Q. Had you previously transported him?

2 A. No, on that day was the only two times I transported

3 him.

4 Q. When that meeting was concluded, did you take him back

5 to the Hotel Vitez?

6 A. No, I took him back to the same location I had picked

7 him up, which is the former Yugoslavian barracks in

8 Kiseljak.

9 Q. You took him back to Kiseljak on 3rd March 1993, are you

10 sure of that?

11 A. Yes, I think it was 17.00 hours.

12 Q. Are there any documents you could review to be

13 absolutely certain of that, or are you going by your own

14 memory?

15 A. I am going by a diary that I have.

16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the witness has answered the

17 question. We did not introduce any documents in

18 examination-in-chief, he is remembering as best he can.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, he has answered the question,

20 I think there is no point insisting.

21 MR. HAYMAN: He said "I think", your Honour, indicating some

22 uncertainty, and I was trying to assist him.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, you helped him and he gave you an

24 appropriate answer. Let us move on. We are nearing 30

25 minutes, Mr. Hayman.

Page 4159

1 MR. HAYMAN: I may even be done, your Honour, I am reviewing

2 my notes for a moment.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, take your time.

4 MR. HAYMAN: To determine definitively when he was moved

5 where, how would one do that, other than by calling and

6 interviewing or gaining testimony from all of the

7 members of the BritBat force in Bosnia at this time?

8 A. I do not understand the question, I am sorry.

9 Q. My question is, can you help us understand how we might

10 determine with specificity when Colonel Blaskic --

11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I do not need an objection here,

12 I am big enough to take care of this myself. This

13 business -- you said you were just about done. I think

14 there has been an answer provided on that. Do you have

15 a different question unrelated to this, or have you

16 done?

17 MR. HAYMAN: I do not have any other lines of inquiry, your

18 Honour, but I would like to complete this one if I may.

19 JUDGE JORDA: In a system well known to me, Mr. Hayman, even

20 if I am just trying to be witty perhaps, in a system,

21 one day General Blaskic will be asked what he remembers

22 about that. In the system, you put the question, you

23 got an answer and that is it. Do you have any other

24 questions, Mr. Hayman?

25 MR. HAYMAN: Only to say, Mr. President, that the Defence

Page 4160

1 should be allowed, respectfully, to determine what other

2 proof and evidence may exist. This is our chance to do

3 that. I am trying to give the Tribunal the best

4 evidence that exists of when Colonel Blaskic was one

5 place and when he was somewhere else. That is what I am

6 trying to do. I apologise if I have irritated the

7 court, but I think with all due respect that is part of

8 the procedure.

9 JUDGE JORDA: No, you are not irritating the court. The

10 court has more than enough patience as you know full

11 well, but the court does have to take account of certain

12 imperatives. Also in connection with the witness, we

13 have to respect a certain balance. You have got an

14 answer from the witness, he answered as best he could.

15 The Tribunal is made up of professional judges, as

16 I keep repeating. This is the system we are working

17 with. We are professional judges and at the right time

18 we will review, come to an assessment and see the extent

19 of density of the answer given by the witness. Do you

20 have any other questions?

21 MR. HAYMAN: No other questions, your Honour, except that

22 there is a log, there are other records and the Tribunal

23 now does not have them, I do not think they are going to

24 get them unless the Defence is able to bring them to

25 your Honours. That was what I was trying to do.

Page 4161

1 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. Mr. Cayley? Just very briefly, please,

2 Mr. Cayley, just clarification.

3 Re-examined by MR. CAYLEY

4 Q. Just two questions. Colour Sergeant, at any time when

5 you were in Vitez on 17th April, did you observe whether

6 or not the Hotel Vitez appeared to be under attack?

7 A. No, sir, I did not.

8 Q. It did not appear to be under attack?

9 A. No, sir, it did not appear to be under attack.

10 Q. You would have noticed that, would you not?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. You recall that Mr. Hayman asked you one or two questions

13 about the Bosnian soldiers you saw up near the

14 front-lines, the ten bus loads. Did you identify them as

15 Bosnian Muslim soldiers?

16 A. No, we were told by the guy who came up to the top, the

17 man who came up the hill and told us to move, he told us

18 who they were.

19 Q. That they were Bosnian Muslim soldiers. Did you see any

20 signs that identified any of the troops there as HVO

21 troops?

22 A. Not that I can recall, sir, no.

23 Q. So it would be fair to say there were no HVO troops with

24 these Bosnian Muslim soldiers?

25 A. I doubt it.

Page 4162

1 Q. So they were alone, all these Bosnian Muslim soldiers,

2 near the Serb front-lines, is that correct?

3 A. That is correct, sir.

4 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Mr. President, I do not have any

5 further questions of the witness.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Sergeant, there may be some

7 questions for you from fellow judges and myself.

8 Judge Riad, please?

9 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Sergeant.

10 A. Good afternoon, sir.

11 Q. You have been an eyewitness during this important period

12 of April 1993, and I trust you can shed some more light

13 on certain events which might enlighten the court. You

14 happened to go to evacuate an UNHCR worker and his

15 family, as you said, and to get them back to the school,

16 because, as you mentioned, Vitez was an unsafe place.

17 At the same time, you said that there was no military

18 engagement in Vitez, and the headquarters, the high

19 command was in the Hotel Vitez. What made Vitez an

20 unsafe place?

21 A. The previous day's activity, sir, that had actually

22 taken place within the village itself. Vitez was

23 normally a quiet, happy town until that specific day

24 when everything had transformed, so therefore someone

25 had made a decision somewhere that Vitez was unsafe,

Page 4163

1 sir.

2 Q. What made it unsafe, exactly? Was it an upsurge of the

3 population?

4 A. No, sir, it was the conflict, I presume, that was

5 happening in the area between the two factions.

6 Q. Between civilians?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. What are the two factions?

9 A. I believe them to be Muslim and Croat, sir.

10 Q. Croats and Muslims?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. But civilians or military? Excuse me, I was not there?

13 A. I did not see no civilians or no military actually

14 fighting combat in Vitez, sir.

15 Q. So why was it unsafe? Why would you be afraid -- why

16 would you evacuate people from there? Are you afraid of

17 the Muslims, the Croats, the military?

18 A. I do not know who they were afraid of, sir. The whole

19 village had transformed from a peaceful village into a

20 village that was a mess by someone destroying the houses

21 and the property.

22 Q. Who was that someone?

23 A. I do not know, sir.

24 Q. Who was responsible for Vitez?

25 A. Who was responsible for the damage, sir?

Page 4164

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. I do not know, sir.

3 Q. There was a break of order, there was no rule of law?

4 A. There was definitely no rule of law, sir.

5 Q. No army?

6 A. No signs of no army, sir.

7 Q. No army present there. What was the high command doing

8 in Hotel Vitez?

9 A. I do not know, sir. My job is a platoon sergeant, sir.

10 Q. It is not your job?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. That is good to know. But there was no military

13 engagement between two factions?

14 A. Not seen with my eyes, sir. I could hear but I could

15 not see with my eyes.

16 Q. You mentioned that you saw on your way -- I will try to

17 exactly find your words, you saw people on the left-hand

18 side at point 5, you see people on the left-hand side,

19 while going to the Swiss chalet I presume, people lying

20 dead on the street on the left-hand side, you said, and

21 then you reached the Swiss chalet where you found 100

22 soldiers in dark uniform.

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. With weapons, jubilating, drinking and waving and you

25 aimed your gun at them?

Page 4165

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Did you conclude that these people were responsible for

3 the death of what you saw, lying on the left-hand side

4 of the road?

5 A. Yes, sir, I personally believe that what I had seen,

6 which detracted my mind from my task, unfortunately, of

7 recovering a vehicle, the scenes that I had seen that

8 I do not want to see again, I drove down the road,

9 turned around and seen these soldiers -- I would not

10 call them soldiers, seeing these people celebrating in a

11 hooligan manner to suggest that they had done what I had

12 seen, sir.

13 Q. So you think they were jubilating their achievement?

14 A. Yes, sir, definitely.

15 Q. Then you also when you went back to point 4, you saw 13

16 women and children and the young man and you carried

17 them to the hospital?

18 A. No, sir, I then went to the vehicle, recovered the

19 vehicle, went back to the school and then returned

20 again, sir, to pick up the people.

21 Q. But you carried them to the hospital?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Did you happen to ask them how they were wounded?

24 A. None were wounded, sir. There were no wounds. They

25 were just very emotional.

Page 4166

1 Q. They were very emotional. Then you found 13 bodies on

2 the road of Muslim women and children in open ground,

3 that was between point 1 and point 2.

4 A. Point 1 and point 2 and the road going down towards

5 point, I think 7, sir, where the vehicle had broken

6 down.

7 Q. Were there any armed men among them, or were they just

8 women and children?

9 A. There were no armed men, there was one man on the

10 right-hand side of the road further up in the entrance

11 way to a house, sir.

12 Q. But the 13 women and children were a group of

13 themselves?

14 A. They were spread out, sir. They were not a mass.

15 Q. They were spread out.

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. But they were women and children?

18 A. Yes, definitely sir.

19 Q. You said that the cattle was shot until death. You

20 found cattle being shot until death.

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Did you know what was the point in shooting cattle until

23 death? Was it mad cows or something?

24 A. No, sir, I do not think it was that, sir. The view

25 I had, sir, was that it was some form of light-hearted

Page 4167

1 entertainment to watch a cow get up and down all the

2 time.

3 Q. Entertainment?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. You came across also a lady who was raped twice and she

6 told you she was robbed and saw a man killed.

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Did she tell you by whom she was raped and robbed?

9 A. No, sir, she did not. She said within the last two

10 hours she had been raped twice, her money and valuables

11 had been taken from her and a man had been shot in front

12 of her.

13 Q. In the beginning, you mentioned that a commander of the

14 HVO and four bodyguards had been kidnapped. You

15 remember that, yes?

16 A. Sorry sir, do I remember that?

17 Q. You remember saying that a HVO commander and four

18 bodyguards had been kidnapped?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. That was before the events?

21 A. Of Ahmici, sir?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Do you think that would have been one of the causes of

25 the massacre which took place afterwards?

Page 4168

1 A. Do I think it would have been a cause?

2 Q. What provoked this whole massacre, if you have been on

3 the area?

4 A. Nothing can provoke something like that, sir, in my

5 eyes.

6 Q. Nothing can provoke that.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Not vengeance or anything?

9 A. No, sir.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Shahabuddeen?

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Colour Sergeant, you spent some time in

13 the area during this important period, and you are a

14 military man. Should I take it that during your stay in

15 the area you became familiar with the various military

16 groups in the area?

17 A. The two different sides, yes, sir.

18 Q. On the Muslim side, there was a military group known as

19 the Armija of the BiH, is that right?

20 A. That is correct, sir.

21 Q. On the Croat side, there was the HVO?

22 A. Correct, sir.

23 Q. Did the HVO include all military groups operating on the

24 Croat side?

25 A. To my knowledge, yes, sir.

Page 4169

1 Q. Did you know of a subgroup on the Croat side called the

2 HOS?

3 A. Only from intelligence reports and updates that we used

4 to get on a daily basis, sir, yes.

5 Q. I take that to mean that you did not physically see any

6 of those groups?

7 A. Not that I would have recognised, no, sir.

8 Q. But you saw about 100 soldiers in the vicinity of the

9 Swiss chalet, a matter to which my brother Judge Riad

10 has just referred.

11 A. Correct, sir.

12 Q. I take it you observed them because you trained the gun

13 of your vehicle at them.

14 A. Correct, sir.

15 Q. They were in dark uniform.

16 A. Correct, sir.

17 Q. Would you be able to tell the court whether they were

18 HVO soldiers?

19 A. Not directly, no, sir, only from the badge that I have

20 clearly in my head of what I have seen, which was a

21 shield in red, white and blue, with some form of

22 inscription.

23 Q. From that, what inference did you draw?

24 A. Croat, sir, red, white and blue being Croat colours,

25 sir.

Page 4170

1 Q. Would that mean that you concluded they were HVO

2 soldiers or not?

3 A. There and then at the time, sir?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. I want to talk to you about the soldiers you saw in the

7 vicinity of the Hotel Vitez. To what military

8 organisation did those soldiers belong?

9 A. I do not know, sir.

10 Q. Let us shift back a little to Miletici village. You saw

11 a number of people there.

12 A. Correct, sir.

13 Q. Would you be able to tell the court whether these people

14 were Croat people or Muslim people?

15 A. Are you referring to the soldiers at the bottom of the

16 hill or the actual village?

17 Q. The village itself.

18 A. Even now, I am very confused as to who they were, after

19 seeing a picture of the last supper, a statue of Christ

20 and the crucifixion, after them telling us that

21 Mujahedin had been, after taking them to a monastery and

22 after seeing Croat flags right by the monastery, I could

23 not answer that question, sir.

24 Q. I respect your reservation on the point. Correct my

25 impression in case it is faulty. Am I right in

Page 4171

1 understanding you to mean that some of the people in the

2 village, or all of them, discouraged you from inspecting

3 that room in which you saw pools of blood, dry blood.

4 A. Yes, sir, they detracted us away from it.

5 Q. They did. Later on, you saw five bodies in another

6 building, is that right?

7 A. The same day, very late.

8 Q. The same day, bearing marks of torture?

9 A. Not noticed that day, until the next day, the signs of

10 torture, sir.

11 Q. You had seen dead bodies before?

12 A. In the former Yugoslavia?

13 Q. Anywhere.

14 A. Grandparents, yes, sir, and at Ahmici and the boy with

15 the puppy.

16 Q. Have you since seen dead bodies since Ahmici, since

17 leaving the area?

18 A. A grandparent again, sir, unfortunately.

19 Q. I do not myself intend to raise any mirth, it is a very

20 serious matter, but tell me this: you saw these five

21 bodies later that day. Could you tell, Colour Sergeant,

22 how long they had died before you saw them, in your

23 estimate?

24 A. A good week, sir, because when we opened the door after

25 they had let us go in there, when we opened the door,

Page 4172

1 the smell was horrendous and one of the deceased was

2 bloated, well overweight. It was horrendous.

3 Q. You saw that on 26/27th April?

4 A. Very late that first night, sir.

5 Q. 26th?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Going to the 27th?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Your estimate is that they would have died a week

10 before?

11 A. I have never seen a body as late as a week, but judging

12 by the smell, yes, sir.

13 Q. Ahmici had happened on 16th April, am I correct?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Good. You were angry when you saw the disposition of

16 those soldiers at Swiss chalet having seen all that you

17 had just seen, am I right?

18 A. Correct, sir.

19 Q. You said you were angry. Should I take it that you were

20 equally angry when you saw these five bodies at Miletici

21 village?

22 A. Nowhere near, sir.

23 Q. There was a disproportion in the degree of your anger,

24 is that right?

25 A. Yes, very much so. There was no evidence, signs, there

Page 4173

1 of who had killed these five people.

2 Q. I see. One final question has to do with the soldiers

3 in the lorries or buses whom you saw I think on the road

4 leading to Miletici, is that right? You saw some BiH

5 soldiers in some lorries or buses?

6 A. On the night of the 26th?

7 Q. Yes, I apologise for jumping from one date and event to

8 another.

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Some of them told you, you said in a friendly way, that

11 it would be better for you to leave.

12 A. Correct, sir.

13 Q. Did you then understand why they were giving you that

14 advice?

15 A. Initially, no, sir. We came down from the hill after

16 being told to get out of the area quick. We got to the

17 bottom, I suppose with a certain amount of fear inside

18 us. We got to the bottom to meet this amount of people

19 and then the way they were, their attitude, their

20 approach, I suppose, calmed me as the commander down a

21 bit and everything turned somewhat better than what it

22 was at the top of the hill. In other words, we were

23 scared to get down from the top of the hill.

24 Q. Yes, Colour Sergeant, but in answer to Mr. Russell Hayman

25 who read a passage from your previous statement, I think

Page 4174

1 you accepted that some of the BiH soldiers in those

2 buses or lorries had also told you, you say in a

3 friendly manner, that it would be better for you to

4 leave; is that correct?

5 A. That is correct, sir.

6 Q. I am asking you this: can you help the court by telling

7 the court why you thought at that time that they were

8 giving you that advice to leave the place?

9 A. Personally because the front-line with the Serbs was only

10 approximately 8 kilometres north, up the only valley in

11 the area, and they were going there presumably to fight,

12 so they had given us a bit of good advice to get out.

13 Q. So your understanding was that their advice had to do

14 with the proximity of the battle lines?

15 A. Correct, sir.

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE JORDA: Just very few questions for you, Colour

18 Sergeant, because we have heard some relevant answers to

19 fellow judges' questions.

20 Just a clarification, you seem to have

21 considerable leeway, you could even take the initiative

22 of aiming your weapons at the uniformed men you saw

23 because you were so angry, so my question is: when you

24 buried, when you attended the burial of those bodies,

25 you went, if I understood rightly, to bury them in a

Page 4175

1 Catholic cemetery, so my question is general in nature:

2 did you receive instructions to do that? It is no small

3 matter, did command headquarters tell you, "these are

4 Croats probably, we are not going to bury them in a

5 Muslim cemetery", how did that happen, not just there

6 but in more general terms?

7 A. Sir, that came via the interpreter, from a local in

8 Miletici itself. We brought the coffins a second day.

9 As I mentioned, we put the names on a piece of paper,

10 put them into the coffin with the deceased person, the

11 name on the cross, put that on the coffin and --

12 Q. You have already told us that, there is no point coming

13 back to that, but you have not really answered

14 Mr. Hayman's question. Do you suppose that they were

15 Croats? I am not sure that you answered that question

16 from the counsel for the Defence fully. You thought

17 they were Croats?

18 A. I was unsure who they were, sir.

19 Q. But you would not have buried Muslims in a Catholic

20 cemetery and vice versa, you had to take a few

21 precautions. Early on, you were anything but clear

22 cut. I am being a bit contradictory here, but I am

23 wondering what kind of initiative a sergeant at UNPROFOR

24 can take at a time like this when it comes to burying

25 bodies?

Page 4176

1 A. We were instructed by one of the locals, through the

2 interpreter, to take them to that specific church.

3 I did say that before, I believe, sir.

4 Q. Okay, final question. The Mujahedin were mentioned.

5 What do you know about the soldiers, the militia, the

6 Mujahedin? Had your command given you any information

7 about that? Can you tell us anything about them?

8 A. We were just informed they were in small pockets and

9 they were very ruthless people who would stop at nothing

10 to get what they wanted. That was all we were told,

11 sir.

12 Q. Colonel Blaskic was the commander of that area, as you

13 saw it?

14 A. I cannot answer that question, sir. I do not know.

15 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, thank you. That is it as far as your

16 testimony goes. If fellow judges have no further

17 questions, then you may rejoin your unit and the

18 Tribunal would like to thank you for your testimony.

19 A. Thank you very much.

20 (The witness withdrew)

21 JUDGE JORDA: Counsel for the Prosecution?

22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, the next witness is a witness

23 that we have asked for protective measures. We have

24 informed or consulted with counsel on this matter,

25 informed him of the identity of this witness.

Page 4177

1 JUDGE JORDA: So you have been informed of those protective

2 measures, have you?

3 MR. HAYMAN: We have and we stipulate to them, your Honour.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. So with regard to the people in the

5 gallery, before bringing in the witness, we are going to

6 bring down the blinds and thereafter, we are going to

7 lift up the blinds. The witness is protected in terms

8 of his voice and face, is that right, counsel?

9 MR. KEHOE: It is not voice, Mr. President, it is full body

10 protection and the name.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. So this will be Witness K?

12 MR. KEHOE: I believe that is correct, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, Witness K then. While we are setting

14 everything up, consistent with the new approach we have

15 adopted since this morning in respect of testimony, can

16 you just tell us in a nutshell what this witness can

17 tell us in relation to the serious charges against

18 General Blaskic?

19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. This is yet another victim

20 from the Ahmici area who, along with his family fled

21 their home, went up to a location in Gornji Ahmici where

22 a woman was shot through the head, a Muslim woman was

23 shot through the head at relatively short range and then

24 his father as well as another woman were wounded, his

25 father carrying a disabled aunt at the time. They

Page 4178

1 retreated back to their location --

2 JUDGE JORDA: The father of the witness? I did not

3 understand. This is the father of the witness that you

4 are referring to?

5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. The family retreated back to

6 their location. The men, having realised that the

7 Muslim men were being executed, went and hid. HVO

8 soldiers came to their house where the women were, burnt

9 the house, took the women off. Thereafter, the HVO,

10 before burning their house, looted the house of TV sets,

11 stereos, those types of matters.

12 They hid in the garage -- I am talking about this

13 witness and two of his male relatives, hid in the

14 garage, the HVO delayed the burning of the garage until

15 the next day which, of course, they did. The witness

16 along with his other male relatives then stayed in their

17 location in the house, in the burnt-out house, until

18 such a time as they thought they were being rescued by

19 UNPROFOR, when in fact they ran into Croat individuals

20 with gas masks on that were retrieving bodies.

21 At that point, they were turned over to two

22 soldiers, one dressed in black, one dressed in

23 camouflage and the witness will discuss thereafter them

24 taking -- being taken to a location where they were

25 interrogated at length, threatened and then taken from

Page 4179

1 that location to the Dubravica school where he can

2 testify as to the conditions in Dubravica school, a

3 woman who was very close to him physically in the

4 building being raped, men taken out to dig trenches and

5 his subsequent release.

6 We have again one exhibit which I believe at this

7 point, correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Dubuisson, is 139,

8 the next exhibit?

9 THE REGISTRAR: 138, counsel.

10 JUDGE JORDA: The witness you have called because -- it is a

11 victim we are talking about of looting and a number of

12 things, citing of the Croat soldiers and then there is

13 also the school in Dubravica and then there is the rape,

14 so I think we can leave it at that. Have Witness K

15 shown in.

16 MR. KEHOE: I am sorry, Mr. Dubuisson, that was Exhibit 139?

17 THE REGISTRAR: No, it is 138, counsel.

18 MR. KEHOE: I am sorry. Mr. President, I also had previously

19 asked for Exhibit 108 to be ready for this particular

20 witness, to show him one photograph on that, which is

21 108/4.

22 (Witness entered court)

23 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. Can you hear me, Witness K? Can you

24 hear me?


Page 4180

1 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. Now the Registrar is going to give you

2 a document so that you can confirm your identity without

3 revealing it. That is you?


5 JUDGE JORDA: Good. Now Registrar, you can submit the

6 solemn oath to the witness. If you would be so kind as

7 to read that, please?

8 WITNESS K (sworn)

9 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Witness K, you have received

10 protective measures at your request, so you can speak

11 without any grounds for fear. You are addressing the

12 International Tribunal, you have been called by the

13 Prosecution to testify about specific acts which relate

14 to your first-hand experience, in particular in Ahmici,

15 and in particular the Dubravica school. These are the

16 elements which the court would like to hear more about.

17 Prosecution, there is no identification involved here,

18 so we can skip that, since we are talking about a

19 protected witness. Okay, fine.

20 Witness K, you are going to give us your testimony

21 in the manner you see fit, in your own words, you are

22 going to tell us about the events that you have already

23 told the Prosecution about, in particular the events

24 I just mentioned, which are the main events which marked

25 you the most, so please go ahead. As and when necessary

Page 4181

1 the Prosecution will be interrupting you to lead your

2 testimony, provide exhibits and thereafter the Defence

3 counsel will be submitting some questions to you. Now

4 it is 3.40, so we will proceed for about ten minutes or

5 so and then have a recess. Please, Witness K, proceed.

6 A. In early March, I moved to Ahmici. I moved there

7 because there was some trouble in Nadioci. I lived in

8 Ahmici in a house and everything was fine until that

9 day, until 16th April. On 16th April in the morning, we

10 were awakened by shooting. I was awakened by it and

11 everybody else who was in the house. We did not know

12 what was going on. We woke up, we got up and all we

13 could hear was shooting. We did not know what was going

14 on.

15 In the house, we were several. My mother, father,

16 my uncle, my aunt who was paralysed, my sister and I.

17 We also saw that some Muslim houses were being set on

18 fire, so we came out of the house and started towards

19 Sutra. This is the group that I just mentioned, that is

20 my family. Along the road, we met some women and

21 girls. We arrived at Sutra. There, there were houses on

22 fire. I observed some soldiers in camouflage uniforms

23 running from one house to the next, and there was a

24 woman, I do not know who she was, she was ahead, at the

25 head of the group. She was walking and then I could

Page 4182

1 feel that there was a shot that came from somewhere and

2 I saw her falling down.

3 Another shot rang out, and I saw a girl who was

4 wounded there, I tried helping her, but I could not. My

5 father told me, "son, I am wounded, take the aunt", who

6 could not move on her own. I approached, first

7 I approached the girl and I could see that I could be of

8 no help, then I came over to my aunt and I took her in

9 my arms. We returned by the same road, by which we had

10 come, and we went back to the same house where we

11 lived.

12 Examined by MR. KEHOE

13 Q. Can I stop you right there, Witness K? How many women

14 were shot up around the Sutra?

15 A. I saw one woman, and a girl who was wounded most

16 probably died.

17 Q. So there were two females shot?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was one of those women shot in the head, the one that

20 you thought died?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. For the judges, the Sutra is a store up towards Gornji

23 Ahmici, is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So one woman was shot in the head, another woman was

Page 4183

1 wounded and your father was wounded?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You also said that you saw soldiers up around the Sutra

4 and that houses were burning.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did these appear to be Muslim houses?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did you see about these soldiers? How were they

9 dressed, did they have any ribbons on their shoulders,

10 et cetera?

11 A. They had camouflage uniforms and white arm bands,

12 something like that. I do not know on which arm it was.

13 Q. The woman that you said got shot in the head died. Do

14 you know what happened to the other woman who was

15 wounded?

16 A. I later found out that she also died.

17 Q. You said you went back to your original house; continue

18 on telling the story to the judges.

19 A. Very well. We returned to that house and there

20 I dressed my father's wound. We did not know where to

21 go because everything around us was on fire. . Then a

22 woman appeared with her two children. She came down the

23 road that went past the house where we were. We called

24 her in because we knew her. This woman came inside the

25 house and when she came in, she said that her husband

Page 4184

1 and son were killed.

2 Q. Witness K, was this woman and her husband and her son,

3 were they Muslims?

4 A. Yes, they were.

5 Q. And you and your family were all Muslims as well?

6 A. Yes, we are.

7 Q. Continue on with the story.

8 A. We were there in the house and that is where she told us

9 this and then my father, my uncle and I decided to go

10 and hide somewhere. We went to the garage which was

11 above the house, it was a triple car garage which had a

12 roof over it, so we went into the first one. We entered

13 there and inside, there was a ditch. It was something

14 like a storage space, and we climbed down into this

15 ditch and there we found some kind of a can, bucket,

16 something for storing food and he sat on it and

17 I crouched next to him and the uncle was on the

18 staircase that was leading down into this ditch and on

19 the top, it was a wooden lid. On top of all of that, it

20 was some kind of a cardboard box, flattened. There was

21 also a little window there which let out to the -- you

22 could see the corner of the house from it. That is

23 where we stayed in this kind of a ditch for some 20, 30

24 minutes.

25 Then we heard voices saying, "surround him" and

Page 4185

1 then they said, "you are surrounded". Then there was a

2 burst of fire. After this shooting, you could hear a

3 few shots ringing out around the house. We could not

4 see anything, but we heard this. After these shots,

5 I saw through this small window as my mother was being

6 led away, I did not see the rest of them.

7 The soldiers remained there, I saw that they were

8 in camouflage uniforms. Then they came out of the house

9 carrying some things, I saw the stereo and the TV which

10 they put by the side of the house, near that corner, and

11 after that we heard more voices, we heard people walking

12 around, and we felt and we saw that the house was on

13 fire, and we heard someone say, "are we going to torch

14 everything?". The other voice said, "no, leave it for

15 later", that meaning the garages. They set the house on

16 fire and walked away. I do not know exactly in which

17 direction. Then my father, my uncle and I just stayed

18 in this ditch that day until 17th April in the morning,

19 until around 9.00 and then at least four soldiers

20 appeared again.

21 MR. KEHOE: Before we move into the 17th, I believe,

22 Mr. President, you wanted to break, as opposed to

23 breaking at the start of the 17th -- if you want the

24 witness to continue on the 17th we will do that as

25 well.

Page 4186

1 JUDGE JORDA: No, we are going to have a break and we will

2 resume at 4.10.

3 (3.50 pm)

4 (A short break)

5 (4.10 pm)

6 JUDGE JORDA: The court is in session. Please show the

7 accused in.

8 (Accused brought in)

9 JUDGE JORDA: Go right ahead, Mr. Kehoe.

10 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President. Witness K, I did not

11 ask you this before, but how old were you when these

12 events were taking place in Ahmici, on 16th April 1993?

13 A. I was not fully 18, so I was still a minor.

14 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, with the court's permission if we

15 could then turn to Exhibit 138? Again, there is no need

16 to put this on the ELMO. If we could have the witness

17 and your Honours as well as counsel look at Exhibit 138,

18 which is an excerpt from Exhibit 50, and then have the

19 witness identify some locations that he just discussed.

20 May I proceed, Mr. President?

21 JUDGE JORDA: Go right ahead.

22 MR. KEHOE: Witness K, the markings on this, and the numbers,

23 you and I have discussed together, have we not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The house that is circled with the number 1, that was

Page 4187

1 the house that you were living in in Ahmici, is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the dotted line that is numbered number 2 is the

5 approximate path that you took up to the Sutra on the

6 morning of 16th April, is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And number 3 there, that is the Sutra, going up towards

9 Gornji Ahmici?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were the houses that were burning up there when you went

12 up there, were they over to the left of the Sutra?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You said you were up there with a group of Muslims, and

15 that would be in the area of the circle that is number

16 4, the oblong circle, is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. By the way, the two women that were shot up in that

19 area, were they both Muslims as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You then stated that you retraced your path from the

22 area around number 4 and took the dotted line number 5

23 back to the house number 1, is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then you said you went and hid in the garage with your

Page 4188

1 father and uncle. Would that be designated as number 6?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The house that the soldiers put on fire on the

4 16th would be the house that you were living in, number

5 1, is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Just before we broke about 20 minutes ago, you were

8 going to begin to tell the judges about 17th April 1993;

9 could you do that, Witness K? What happened on the

10 17th, the next day?

11 A. Yes. On the 17th, around 9.00, we were in this ditch,

12 this pit. We saw soldiers wearing camouflage uniform,

13 that is I saw soldiers in camouflage uniforms, who were

14 approaching these garages. I saw four of them, I do not

15 know if there were more, I did not see any more. Then

16 they started entering these garages. There were three

17 of these garages, three partitions. In the first

18 garage, it was also a storage, and the second was also a

19 storage unit and the third one was a chicken coop of

20 sorts. We heard soldiers' voices, "shall we torch

21 everything?", and he said, "you do it, he was your

22 friend". After that, we could hear voices, "did you

23 find anything? Did you find anything?".

24 We were in this garage, in this pit, and we could

25 hear somebody walking around this garage. Then we

Page 4189

1 smelled gasoline. It was being poured over this garage

2 where we were. We also heard some shots and one said,

3 "are there any chicken around?". The garages were

4 starting to burn, and myself, my father and my uncle

5 were in this pit. Then we hear these shots and we could

6 not stay there any more because the garages were on fire

7 now. So we came out of this pit into the garage which

8 was already going up in flames, the three of us did.

9 The soldiers who were around the house were shooting at

10 the chicken who were running around the field. They had

11 their backs to us, so that my father and my uncle

12 managed to run from the garage into the house without

13 the soldiers noticing them.

14 As I was starting to run, one of the soldiers

15 turned around and I went back into the garage. I could

16 hear some strange noise around my hair, I leaned into

17 the garage and then I ran across over into the house.

18 My father and uncle were already in the bathroom in the

19 house. We stayed there, there were still some shots and

20 some voices, "take a few chicken, let us take a few and

21 let us go", and that is what happened, they took a few

22 and then they walked away.

23 Q. Let me stop you there for a second, Witness K. You said

24 that you heard some strange noise around your hair when

25 you were still in the garage; what was the strange

Page 4190

1 noise?

2 A. I felt that my hair was on fire. It was like crackling

3 of my hair, so I leaned against a wall of the garage,

4 because the flames were licking upwards, and then after

5 that, I ran across into the house.

6 Q. You said several minutes ago that you heard the soldiers

7 say, "should we set fire to the garage?" , and one

8 soldier said, "you do it, it is a friend of yours".

9 Based on that conversation, did you conclude anything

10 about who these soldiers were?

11 A. On the basis of this conversation, I concluded these

12 were local men.

13 Q. You said that you, your uncle and your father made it

14 back into the main house and that would be back in the

15 house circled with number 1. Was that house still on

16 fire?

17 A. The house burned down on the 16th.

18 Q. What was the condition of the house when you went into

19 it on the 17th?

20 A. It was all burnt out, the walls were burned, everything.

21 Q. Take us back to the point where you are back into the

22 house, continue to tell the judges what happened.

23 A. From the bathroom, we moved to another part of the house

24 which was kind of a storage area under a staircase.

25 That is where we moved on the 17th, under this

Page 4191

1 staircase, my father, my uncle and myself. That was a

2 bit hidden, it was like a storage area. That is where

3 we spent the 17th and the 18th, the 19th and 20th, and

4 on the 20th we found there in this storage area, we

5 found a bottle with vinegar and some sugar and that is

6 what we ate in this period.

7 On the 21st, we heard some strange noise. We saw

8 personnel carriers, the UN ones, which came up from the

9 main road and stopped in front of the mosque in Ahmici.

10 We saw some UN soldiers climbing out of these personnel

11 carriers and as we were observing, we saw that there

12 were three men who approached the house where we were

13 staying. They had blue uniforms and they had gas masks

14 on their heads. We were in this house, and one of these

15 men entered the kitchen, the other one went upstairs and

16 the third stayed there.

17 We pulled back further under that staircase. They

18 went through the house and then they came out. We

19 thought they were UNPROFOR and we started coming out --

20 to come out. Father went out first and then my uncle

21 and then myself. Father said, "people, do not be

22 afraid, we will not do anything to you", and then one of

23 those men in the blue uniform jumped up, he was

24 startled, and he said, "Jesus Christ, we are looking for

25 the dead ones and there are still some alive".

Page 4192

1 The one standing next to him waved and I noticed

2 from the house that two soldiers were running up the

3 road, one in a camouflage uniform and one in a black

4 uniform. Then the curses started immediately, they

5 cursed our balija mothers and they said, "kill", but the

6 man who said "Jesus Christ", he said, "take these men up

7 in front of the command". So we started from there,

8 they took us there, we had to put our hands up behind

9 our heads and we had to look down.

10 Q. Let me stop you there for a second, Witness K. Did you

11 see any insignia on the uniform of either the soldier in

12 the black uniform or the soldier in the camouflage

13 uniform?

14 A. On the black uniform I only saw the name "Joker"

15 embroidered, I do not know which arm.

16 Q. At this point, had you concluded that these soldiers and

17 the men dressed in blue with the gas masks were not with


19 A. Yes. We concluded that these men were not UNPROFOR.

20 Q. When you went outside and they took you outside and you

21 said you put your hands on your head, did you see any

22 bodies, any dead bodies?

23 A. I saw a body by the gate leading up to the house. It

24 was like a skeleton, it was all burnt out, singed below

25 the knees. It was more singed than burnt, this body,

Page 4193

1 and I noticed shoes on the body's feet that were the

2 same kind of shoes that our neighbour from number 7

3 owned.

4 Q. Witness K, you said that you recognised it by the shoes

5 and that the body was singed. Did you think that that

6 body had just been dumped there or that the body had

7 been burnt there?

8 A. It was dumped there, because you could not see any grass

9 that burnt around the body, and we had also heard some

10 voices beforehand, something to the effect that this

11 body was dumped there.

12 Q. Earlier, had one of these three men told you that they

13 were looking for dead bodies?

14 A. He said, when he said, "Jesus Christ, we are looking for

15 the dead ones and there are still some live ones here".

16 Q. After you were taken out of the house and you put your

17 hands on your head, tell the judges what happened after

18 that.

19 A. I saw this dead body and then they took us in the

20 direction of Zume. We had to keep our hands up, they

21 ordered us not to turn around or look sideways or else

22 they would shoot us in the head. So we started up there

23 towards Zume by the stadium and we ended up in front of

24 a house, in front of which there was a desk and some

25 benches, and there were five or six soldiers. Most of

Page 4194

1 them wore camouflage uniforms and some wore black

2 uniforms. I did not notice any insignia there, and

3 immediately they started cursing our Ahmic mother,

4 balija mother, "kill them". One of them ordered us to

5 sit down on that bench and so my father and my uncle sat

6 on one side and I sat across from them on another

7 bench.

8 There was a man sitting across from us, he was

9 I think a Croat, an older man. He said, "kill the young

10 one, kill the young one". Then another soldier

11 approached in black trousers, black T-shirt, long

12 sleeved one, he came over to me and he said -- and again

13 this other one is saying, "kill him, kill him", and

14 I was sitting down. He approached me and he pulled up

15 his sleeves up to his elbows and he said, "we will see

16 who mourns the most". I noticed that this soldier had

17 two knives. He came over to me and he took me by the

18 shoulder and this older man, "kill the young one".

19 I was sitting down there and he put his hand on my

20 shoulder, this soldier with two knives, and he said, "we

21 will see now whose mother mourns the most", and he

22 grabbed me by the hair and pulled my head backwards, and

23 he had noticed that my hair was singed, and he said,

24 "you see, you escaped but you are not going to escape

25 the fire".

Page 4195

1 A woman was there, she just looked over towards us

2 and then entered this house in front of which we were.

3 Then a tall man came out of it, he was 30 to 35, he had

4 a small beard, and he asked my father whether he was

5 such and such a person, and whether he had a disabled

6 sister. My father replied that he was that man, and he

7 said, "pull back from these people", and that is what

8 happened. The soldier with two knives who stepped back

9 turned around at one point and said that he would come

10 for me to kill me.

11 After that, my father asked this gentleman who had

12 told them to leave us alone what was going to happen to

13 us next. We were just sitting there until a truck

14 arrived which was a refrigerator truck. Some soldiers

15 arrived, they opened up this truck, we were ordered to

16 climb in and so we entered the truck. We were in it and

17 we were being taken somewhere, we did not know where.

18 After about 20 to 30 minutes, the vehicles came to a

19 stop.

20 Q. Let me stop you there for one moment, Witness K. You

21 said that they put you in a refrigerator truck. Were

22 you put in that truck with your father and your uncle?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were there any soldiers put in the truck also?

25 A. Yes, there were two soldiers.

Page 4196

1 Q. What type of soldiers were they?

2 A. There were two soldiers with regular HVO insignia in

3 camouflage uniforms.

4 Q. Where did that refrigerator truck ultimately stop after

5 20 to 30 minutes -- before I ask that question, is the

6 place where you were talking about where your father was

7 being interrogated and you were being threatened, is

8 that number 8 on the map?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So let us go back with the story that you were telling.

11 Where did the truck drop you off after 20 to 30 minutes

12 and what happened when you got there?

13 A. The refrigerator truck stopped, it was opened and we

14 were taken out. We saw that this was the school in

15 Donje Dubravica, so we were in front of the school in

16 Donje Dubravica. There was a group of five or six

17 soldiers out there too and also in the hallway who were

18 cursing our balija mothers, et cetera, swearing. They

19 took us into the school.

20 Then a soldier came out in a camouflage uniform

21 who said, "bring those men over here". They took us to

22 some kind of office, a room in that school. Three

23 tables were put together there, and behind these three

24 tables there were three chairs, about a metre or a metre

25 and a half between each. Then we were ordered to sit

Page 4197

1 down, to sit in those chairs so we walked in and we sat

2 down. A soldier who was sitting at the corner of one of

3 these tables with his feet on the table, he pointed his

4 rifle at us.

5 At that moment, a man walked in, dark, with a

6 moustache, about 30 to 35. He walked into this room

7 where we were, and then our questioning started, who we

8 were, where were we from, where we were before that,

9 what we were doing, what our names were. After this

10 questioning, he introduced himself to us. He said,

11 "I am Marinko, and I am the commander of this camp".

12 He seemed familiar to me, I think I saw him before that.

13 After this questioning, he said that the three of

14 us, my father, my uncle and I, should go to the hall.

15 We were brought to the hall, there were men and women

16 there and children too, it was really the gym of that

17 school. We were brought into the gym, there were women

18 there and men and children, and we stayed there. We

19 received only a little bit of food every 24 hours.

20 On the 24th, UNPROFOR came, but before that, in

21 the evening, people would be taken out to dig trenches.

22 They did not take me because I was exhausted. My uncle

23 was taken out to dig trenches. On 24th, UNPROFOR came

24 and they registered us, and we were given cards. That

25 day, my father was taken away by UNPROFOR because he was

Page 4198

1 wounded. UNPROFOR took him away, but I did not know

2 where he was taken to. My uncle and I stayed on in the

3 camp.

4 On the 25th or 26th, I am not too sure what day it

5 was, a girl who was about 20 years old, I did not know

6 her before that, I was lying on the floor on a blanket,

7 she came up to me and she sat next to me and she was

8 crying. I asked her, "why are you crying?", and then

9 she cried even more. I said, "why are you crying?", and

10 she said, "I was taken away last night". I said, "who

11 took you away?"; "I was taken away by some soldiers",

12 and I said, "what happened?"; "I was raped"; "do you

13 know how many of them and who they were?"; "I do not

14 know", she said, "because I had fainted".

15 That is where we were, that is where we spent our

16 days, in confinement, until 1st May. On 1st May,

17 UNPROFOR came again and they announced to us that there

18 would be an exchange, that we would be exchanged. We

19 were told that we could choose whether we would go to

20 Zenica or to Travnik, that we should register

21 accordingly. My uncle and I decided to go to Travnik,

22 and on 1st May, around 3.00 or 4.00, UNPROFOR came with

23 a bus. Before that, they took away the people who were

24 imprisoned there with me, they took them to Zenica and

25 my uncle and I, there were 22 of us altogether, we were

Page 4199

1 taken to Travnik.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Witness K. If there is no further

3 clarification, maybe you could answer some additional

4 questions from the counsel of the Prosecution.

5 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President. When you got to

6 Dubravica school, you said that the -- were the soldiers

7 in the Dubravica school in camouflage uniforms?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you see any insignia on their uniforms?

10 A. I did not see any insignia, but it was being said that

11 they were the Vitezovi.

12 Q. Your uncle was taken to dig trenches. Do you know where

13 he dug trenches?

14 A. He told me that he went to Sivrino Selo, to Dubravica

15 and around there, that is where he dug those trenches.

16 Q. Were you in the gym when they came and took people out

17 to dig the trenches?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did this go on almost every night when you were there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Just going back to clarify a point that you said at the

22 beginning of your testimony, you said that in March you

23 moved to Ahmici. Had you moved from Nadioci?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was this as a result of some problems with or harassment

Page 4200

1 by HVO soldiers?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know the names of those soldiers?

4 A. In Nadioci, I know that it was Cicko and Rutko who

5 harassed me, these are their nicknames.

6 Q. After this, did you learn what Cicko's name was?

7 A. Cicko's name is Miroslav. I do not know his last name

8 exactly, but Miroslav is his first name.

9 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Witness K. Mr. President and

10 your Honours, I just would offer into evidence at this

11 time Exhibit 138 and I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, no objection. Turning to the

13 counsel for the Defence, two lawyers for the Defence,

14 Mr. Nobilo, go right ahead, please.

15 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I would like to put a question or

16 two in connection with the house where they lived, so

17 perhaps it would be a good thing to exclude the public

18 from this part of the hearing.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. For the duration of these few

20 questions, could we go into a private session,

21 Registrar, please?

22 (In private session)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4201

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (In open session)

Page 4202

1 JUDGE JORDA: Now we are back in the public session, so

2 please go ahead, Mr. Nobilo.

3 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. Witness K, you mentioned the trouble

4 you had in Nadioci. Could you tell me before we move on

5 to this trouble, who was Cicko? What was he well known

6 for and what do you know about him?

7 A. I know Cicko, not all that well, I know that his name is

8 Miroslav, his first name, and that he provoked me

9 before.

10 Q. Is he well known for killing a Muslim and for blowing up

11 his bed with explosive, yes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did he blow up his entire house or only the bed and the

14 body?

15 A. I did not walk up to the house, I heard it, I did not

16 see it. My father went to this man's funeral and he

17 said that the house was blown up too.

18 Q. Were you present when the police came from Vitez for the

19 inquest?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you hear that the police had come?

22 A. Yes, I heard that the police had come, but I was not

23 present.

24 Q. Did you hear about Cicko finishing up in jail?

25 A. Yes, I heard something, but after that, three or four

Page 4203

1 days after that, I saw Cicko.

2 Q. Tell me, what did Cicko do to you exactly, briefly in

3 two or three sentences, please.

4 A. Cicko; he held a rifle pointed at me and he said he

5 would kill me.

6 Q. Where was this?

7 A. In Nadioci.

8 Q. In the house where you lived?

9 A. In another house where I was staying at present, at a

10 party.

11 Q. What was he seeking there?

12 A. I do not know why he was there, he was looking for

13 weapons in that house, so they walked into the house,

14 violently, they were searching the place and he was

15 carrying a rifle, a Karabin, and he turned it to me and

16 said he would kill me.

17 Q. Were they looking for money or for people's valuables?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were they drunk, the two of them, on that occasion?

20 A. Cicko was not, and you could feel the smell of alcohol

21 from Rutko.

22 Q. Later on, did you meet Cicko again and did you talk to

23 him?

24 A. I saw him at my place where he wanted to apologise to

25 me, that very same night when that had happened.

Page 4204

1 Q. (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 A. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. Tell me, when you went to the place called Sutra, the

11 place that you referred to with those women, did you

12 come to that deep ditch or had you crossed it before

13 that?

14 A. We came to this deep ditch.

15 Q. But you did not cross it?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Are there any bushes or any trees or forest there by the

18 deep ditch?

19 A. Around the middle.

20 Q. Tell me now, when you were walking, from what side did

21 the bullets, the firing come from?

22 A. I do not know exactly from what direction because they

23 were firing from all sides.

24 Q. You did not see who was shooting?

25 A. No, I could not see it exactly. I had seen some

Page 4205

1 soldiers by Sutra who were running from one house to

2 another, but I did not see who was actually doing the

3 shooting.

4 Q. At that time, was there a lot of infantry fire in Ahmici

5 and in the vicinity?

6 A. No, not at that point in time. There was not a lot of

7 firing, you could hear some shooting but it was not that

8 strong.

9 Q. You heard some shooting from Sutra?

10 A. But I do not know the people who were hit, whether they

11 were hit from that area.

12 Q. Tell me, when they were hit, which way were they facing,

13 the direction in which you were moving?

14 A. Depending on where who stood.

15 Q. But they were hit in the front, not in the back?

16 A. Yes, in the front, and my father was hit on the side.

17 Q. Were these individual shots or were these bursts of

18 gunfire?

19 A. Bursts of gunfire.

20 Q. So we have understood that you did not see who actually

21 did the shooting. Tell me, when you were already

22 arrested, and when this old man kept saying, "kill him,

23 kill him", did he say something else? Did he mention,

24 for example, the following words? I will tell you what

25 your previous statement says on page 7:

Page 4206

1 "Kill him, kill him in front of the house, he is

2 responsible for the death of three of our men", or

3 something like that?

4 A. Yes, he kept saying, "kill the kid, kill the kid, he is

5 responsible for the death of three of their people,

6 three of their soldiers".

7 Q. Could you describe the man who practically saved you at

8 the intervention of that woman, who said that you should

9 be left alone? What did he look like, could you

10 describe him in detail?

11 A. He was fair, blonde, about 1 metre 80 centimetres,

12 tall. He had a small beard, he was in uniform.

13 Q. Did he look like a commander to you?

14 A. He did look like a commander to me, because other people

15 were asking him what to do too, because he was the one

16 who said we should be left alone.

17 Q. Did you see him before that?

18 A. I saw him when I would pass by Pican's house. He was in

19 front of it, sometimes. I did not know his name.

20 Q. So we can conclude that he was practically a neighbour,

21 that he lived somewhere round there?

22 A. Yes, I saw him there a couple of times.

23 Q. When you were put in the refrigerator truck, was it on,

24 the cooling, or was it off?

25 A. It was not on.

Page 4207

1 Q. When you arrived in Dubravica, was any mention made of

2 Croat Muslim units, when people talked to your father?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us in a few sentences what all that was

5 about?

6 A. It was about the following: there was some interrogating

7 by Marinko, who did what and how. I was wearing boots

8 on my feet, Nihad Skrobo gave me these boots as a

9 present, and he asked me about them and he said, how did

10 I get those boots, usually anybody could have them, and

11 I answered that Nihad Skrobo had given them to me and he

12 said that he knew Nihad Skrobo and that he was in

13 Croatia together with him at the front-line.

14 Q. Tell me, your father, was he a member of the BH-Army at

15 that time?

16 A. At that time, he was. That was the Territorial Defence.

17 Q. What unit did he belong to?

18 A. I do not know exactly. I know that it was called the

19 Territorial Defence, I do not know what unit it was.

20 Q. The Territorial Defence in Ahmici or another Territorial

21 Defence?

22 A. No, he would go out to Turbe, my father, against the

23 Chetniks. Seven days before all of these events, he was

24 together with the Croats at the front-line against the

25 Chetniks.

Page 4208

1 Q. Tell me, what are you doing now, where do you live? You

2 do not have to tell me exactly where you live, but what

3 do you do now?

4 MR. KEHOE: I object, your Honour. I object to the question

5 as to what his current employment is on an open record.

6 MR. NOBILO: In the most general terms, he does not have to

7 say anything specific. Very generally, what is he doing

8 with his life now?

9 JUDGE JORDA: Please be careful, Mr. Nobilo. Just please be

10 cautious. Do you want to add something, Mr. Kehoe? We

11 will check the transcript, that is what we will do,

12 because we may commit some errors, so we do have to be

13 very careful. The witness has to be careful.

14 Witness K, it is in your interest to be taking

15 protective measures for you. If you think that in a

16 reply you are -- yes, I know. (Pause).

17 Let me sum up. As Judge Riad pointed out, there

18 are some real concerns. The protection of the witness

19 is the task of all parties, the judges, Defence and

20 Prosecution and for you as well, Witness K. If there is

21 a question you are uncomfortable with, Witness K, you

22 should say so, you should say, "no, I would rather not

23 answer that. That would give away my identity", because

24 this is a public session. You are protected but this is

25 a public session, as my fellow judges have just pointed

Page 4209

1 out to me. That said, we will check in the transcript

2 of the hearing which subsequently is published, so the

3 Registrar will see to it that that is deleted so please

4 keep it simple, Witness K, and if you think that a given

5 question is not in the interests of your safety, just

6 say so. Thank you, gentlemen.

7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the witness did not answer

8 anything. I just asked him what he was doing now, and

9 then the objection was raised, so we did not make any

10 kind of mistake, so there is nothing in the transcript

11 that should not be there. I simply wondered whether he

12 was working or going to school et cetera.

13 MR. KEHOE: I think if the question is whether he is working

14 or going to school and the witness can say he is working

15 --

16 JUDGE JORDA: Wait a minute, Mr. Hayman is not hearing

17 anything.

18 MR. HAYMAN: I did not have a translation of your Honour's

19 comment. That was what I was concerned about.

20 JUDGE JORDA: It was a shame. It was a very good comment.

21 No, I think we can leave it at that. The incident is

22 over and done with, the witness did not say anything and

23 there is nothing to fear. Let us proceed.

24 MR. NOBILO: I have no further questions. That was my last

25 question.

Page 4210

1 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe is already standing so

2 maybe wants to pick up on just a few items. Go ahead,

3 please.

4 Re-examined by MR. KEHOE

5 Q. Just a few, Mr. President. You mentioned in response to

6 cross-examination by Mr. Nobilo that Cicko was arrested

7 for blowing this Muslim up in his house, is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Four days later, you saw him back out on the street, is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Also, in questions by Mr. Nobilo, he read your statement,

13 and he said that this old man said that you were

14 responsible for the death of three of their soldiers; do

15 you recall those questions by him?

16 A. I remember.

17 Q. Is that true?

18 A. Yes, he said, "kill the young one", as if I had killed

19 those three.

20 Q. Had you killed anybody?

21 A. I did not, we did not even have anything, we did not

22 have anything to kill them with.

23 Q. What did your father say at the time when you were being

24 accused of killing these three soldiers?

25 A. He got up and he said, "we did not kill anyone, we had

Page 4211

1 nothing to kill people with and we would not have killed

2 them".

3 Q. Defence asked you some questions on cross-examination

4 about these Croat Muslim units; do you recall those

5 questions?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Your father talked to Marinko about those units, is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes, he did.

10 Q. Those units were units from the outbreak at the

11 beginning of the war in 1992, were they not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When this happened, there were no Croat Muslim units,

14 were there?

15 A. There were not.

16 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

17 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe, for being so brief. I am

18 going to turn to my fellow judges. Judge Riad?

19 JUDGE RIAD: I will call you Witness K. Good afternoon.

20 I would like to have some clarifications: when you were

21 leaving Sutra, you saw what you call soldiers running

22 from house to house around Sutra and apparently putting

23 fire in the houses, is that right?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. What made you think they are soldiers?

Page 4212

1 A. Because I saw as they were running across one house was

2 already starting to burn and I saw the camouflage

3 uniforms on the soldiers who were running from one house

4 to the other.

5 Q. What kind of camouflage uniform was it?

6 A. Regular camouflage uniforms.

7 Q. Of HVO, to your knowledge?

8 A. Well yes, as far as I know, to my knowledge they were

9 the HVO uniforms.

10 Q. When these people came in on the 19th to the storage

11 area where you were, you thought they were UNPROFOR

12 people, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Then they were not in camouflage uniform at that time?

15 A. I did not fully understand the question.

16 Q. You remember you said on the 19th you were in the

17 storage area and you thought that the people who came in

18 were UNPROFOR people and you went to them, you came out

19 of your hiding and you went to them. Did I understand

20 you rightly? Then you discovered that they were not


22 A. Yes, we discovered that they were not UNPROFOR, they

23 were wearing blue uniforms.

24 Q. Were they disguised as UNPROFOR or was it also the HVO

25 normal dress?

Page 4213

1 A. The regular blue uniform was for the members of the

2 civilian protection, they wore such uniforms.

3 Q. What do you call "civilian protection"? UNPROFOR or

4 Croat or Bosnian? What was the civilian protection?

5 A. I could not answer this question.

6 Q. I put it differently. Were there any Croat troops

7 assuming civilian protection, protecting people?

8 A. I do not know.

9 Q. You always spoke of those who took you around as

10 soldiers. For instance, you said that a soldier with

11 two knives came to you and said, "whose mother will

12 mourn the most?". Also, why do you think he is a

13 soldier? Then there was Marinko, who you said was a

14 commander. Did they look like regular army soldiers?

15 A. The one in black uniform had black boots, black

16 trousers, black sweat shirt and two knives and he looked

17 to me like a soldier. Marinko had a camouflage uniform

18 and he looked like a soldier.

19 Q. And the man who saved you, did he look like a soldier

20 too?

21 A. Yes, he was in a camouflage uniform.

22 Q. Did he look like a commander?

23 A. Yes, he did.

24 Q. Then you noticed that the commander's orders are being

25 obeyed?

Page 4214

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You spoke of the young girl of 20 years old who cried

3 and told you she had been raped. Did she tell you she

4 had been raped by soldiers?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Judge Riad. Judge Shahabuddeen?

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let us go back to this incident when

9 you thought that some UNPROFOR personnel were

10 approaching, and you came out and discovered that that

11 was not correct; do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I have a recollection that you described one of the men

14 as being in a black uniform and being a Joker, am

15 I correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The other soldier or soldiers were in camouflage, is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you hear them all talking to one another?

21 A. When we were arrested, we did not hear their

22 conversation.

23 Q. I know that you may not remember exactly what they said,

24 what I am asking is whether you heard any of them

25 talking to the others?

Page 4215

1 A. He only said -- the one in the blue uniform just said

2 that we should be taken in front of the command, so

3 these two who were there.

4 Q. He was talking to the other two soldiers?

5 A. No.

6 Q. To whom was he talking then?

7 A. He just said -- he said to those two soldiers, "take

8 them up in front of the command post".

9 Q. That is the Joker soldier told the two who were in

10 camouflage to take them up to the command post, is that

11 correct?

12 A. No, the one in the blue uniform, man in the blue uniform

13 said to these two, one had a black Joker uniform and the

14 other soldier had a camouflage uniform, he told the two

15 of them to take me and my father and my uncle to the

16 command post.

17 Q. So you had the impression that the three of them were

18 acting together?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let us go to the incident during which someone

21 threatened you with a knife, threatened to slit your

22 throat, I think.

23 A. Yes, that was the man standing next to me with two

24 knives and he said that he was going to kill me.

25 Q. You remember that Mr. Marinko, I think, intervened and

Page 4216

1 saved you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He was a Croat?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did anyone tell Marinko of this allegation that you had

6 killed some Croat soldiers?

7 A. No, Marinko did not ask us that.

8 Q. I am not asking you whether Marinko asked such a

9 question; what I am asking is whether anyone told

10 Marinko of that allegation, that you had killed some

11 Croat soldiers?

12 A. I do not know.


14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Witness K. That is the end of your

15 testimony. So we have taken protective measures, you

16 have nothing to fear. The Tribunal would like to thank

17 you. Now we are going to bring down the blinds again,

18 so that you will be safe to the end, so that no one can

19 see you, so please remain seated for the time being.

20 (The witness withdrew)

21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, just a question I forgot to put

22 this to you. This witness had been forecast to last how

23 long, about? I do not remember what the expectations

24 were.

25 MR. KEHOE: I simply do not recall, your Honour. I believe

Page 4217

1 it was two hours or thereabouts.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. Who is going to be introducing the next

3 witness, Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Harmon? There is no other

4 witness? No more witnesses. We are going too fast, if

5 I have got it right.

6 MR. KEHOE: Neither me nor Mr. Harmon will introduce the next

7 witness today. We do not have any other witness for

8 today, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE JORDA: Okay, fine. Do you know we are not sitting

10 tomorrow morning because there is a plenary with other

11 judges? Tomorrow afternoon, do you have witnesses ready

12 for tomorrow, in other words some problems, Mr. Cayley?

13 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, we anticipate the arrival of

14 several witnesses late this evening and we will do our

15 best to prepare a witness or two witnesses for the time

16 available tomorrow.

17 JUDGE JORDA: You need not prepare them, because since you

18 have the presiding judge who is doing all the groundwork

19 for you, it should make it all a lot easier.

20 MR. CAYLEY: Of course, Mr. President. I have a personal

21 announcement to make to the court. As a result of

22 professional and personal commitments, I will be absent

23 from the Tribunal and in the United Kingdom probably

24 until after the December break. I will be replaced by a

25 very experienced American Prosecutor, Nancy Paterson,

Page 4218

1 who will be assisting Mr. Harmon and Mr. Kehoe in my

2 absence. I apologise to the court and to my learned

3 friends opposite for having to do this, but it is

4 unavoidable, unfortunately.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Does this mean that you will then be coming

6 back in January, Mr. Cayley?

7 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. Perhaps sooner.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Good, we are delighted to hear it. Of course

9 we are looking forward to working with Ms. Paterson.

10 Now we can leave it at that. We will be in court

11 tomorrow at 3.00 pm, is that right? (Pause). All right

12 then, we will resume tomorrow at 3.00 pm.

13 (5.25 pm)

14 (Hearing adjourned until 3.00 pm the following day)