International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

  1. 1 Monday, 19th January 1998

    2 (2.15 pm)

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Registrar,

    4 have the accused brought in, please.

    5 (Accused brought in)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume the

    7 hearing. First I would like to ask whether the

    8 interpreters are ready. Yes. I would like to wish

    9 everybody a happy new year, all people who are working

    10 with us in this trial.

    11 First of all, does everybody hear? Does the

    12 Prosecutor hear, the Defence hear? Does the accused

    13 hear? General Blaskic, do you hear me?

    14 MR. BLASKIC: Good morning, your Honour, I can

    15 hear you very well.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: We can then start again.

    17 Let me first turn to the Prosecutor and ask

    18 him, what is on this week's programme? I understood

    19 there were a lot of witnesses. Perhaps the order which

    20 we made about the testimony of witnesses, we can hope

    21 that this will speed things up a bit. Mr. Prosecutor,

    22 the floor is yours.

    23 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Mr. President and

    24 your Honours. Happy new year to you as well and to

    25 counsel.

  2. 1 Mr. President, we have a number of witnesses

    2 this week, as you can see we have, and we will proceed

    3 with them in as quick an order as we can. The first

    4 witness I will be calling this afternoon, Mr. President,

    5 is Munib Kajmovic. I can start with identifying those

    6 parts of the indictment about which Mr. Kajmovic's

    7 testimony is relevant. First, Mr. President, his

    8 testimony is relevant to paragraph 5.2 of the general

    9 allegations section of the indictment.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: 5.2.

    11 MR. HARMON: And is relevant to count 1,

    12 persecution, crimes against humanity, dealing with the

    13 forcible transfer of civilians, paragraphs 6.6, 6.7 and

    14 paragraph 7. To summarise Mr. Kajmovic's testimony,

    15 Mr. Kajmovic is from Central Bosnia, he was born in the

    16 Travnik Municipality and he lived in Vitez from 1976

    17 until 1994, the last eleven months of which he was in

    18 Stari Vitez, involved in the siege of Stari Vitez as a

    19 defender.

    20 From 1976 until April 1993, he was a history

    21 teacher at the Vitez High School. While he was a

    22 resident of Vitez, he was active in civil and political

    23 affairs, including being the President of the SDA, the

    24 Bosnian Muslim political party in Vitez. In 1994,

    25 following the end of the siege of Stari Vitez,

  3. 1 Mr. Kajmovic enrolled for graduate studies at the

    2 University of Sarajevo, School of Politics, where as

    3 part of his studies for a Master's degree he prepared a

    4 Master's thesis entitled "Political and Demographic

    5 Changes in the Vitez Municipality between 1992 and

    6 1995". His thesis will be presented this June in front

    7 of the Faculty of the University of Sarajevo and we

    8 will offer him as an expert in the area of demographic

    9 changes in the Vitez Municipality during the time-frame

    10 which I have just identified.

    11 His testimony will be limited to testifying

    12 about the results of his research into the demographic

    13 changes in the Vitez Municipality as a result of the

    14 war. He will describe the manner and methods he used

    15 in preparing his report and he will present evidence of

    16 his findings and conclusions in respect of the

    17 demographic changes of ethnic population movement in

    18 the Vitez Municipality between 1991 and 1995 and the

    19 causes for those changes.

    20 So that, Mr. President, is a summary of what

    21 he will testify about before this Trial Chamber today.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Speaking about an expert, and

    23 with the concerns we have in trying to make sure

    24 everything is done as quickly as possible, whether

    25 there is a cross-examination in any case, did this

  4. 1 expert submit a report which would allow everybody to

    2 see it and to be sure that only the most important

    3 questions are asked?

    4 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President, we did not

    5 submit a report to the Defence. As part of the court's

    6 order, a copy of which I have, the Prosecutor was not

    7 required -- the parties are not required to submit

    8 expert reports. That was part of the decision of this

    9 chamber, and I can refer the Trial Chamber to that part

    10 of the decision if the court so please.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Under those

    12 conditions, we have heard your answer, you can have the

    13 witness, Mr. Kajmovic, brought in. I believe that is

    14 the name.

    15 (Witness entered court)

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me, Mr. Kajmovic?

    17 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Please turn to me, direct your

    19 answers to me, please. Tell us your name, surname and

    20 first name. Please look at the President when you are

    21 answering. That is right, because I am the one

    22 speaking to you. Tell me your name and first name.

    23 THE WITNESS: My name is Munib Kajmovic.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. While remaining

    25 standing you are going to read the declaration which

  5. 1 the usher is going to give to you.

    2 MR. MUNIB KAJMOVIC (sworn)

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You may be seated,

    4 Mr. Kajmovic. You were called by the Prosecutor as part

    5 of the trial of the accused who is here, General

    6 Blaskic. The Prosecutor has summarised what you are

    7 going to tell us and after a few initial questions you

    8 will speak freely and then answer any questions which

    9 the Prosecutor will ask you.

    10 Mr. Prosecutor, I give you the floor, if you

    11 wish to begin now.

    12 Examined by MR. HARMON

    13 Q. Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Kajmovic.

    14 A. Good afternoon.

    15 Q. I am going to ask you some preliminary

    16 questions and then we will turn directly to the heart

    17 of your testimony. Mr. Kajmovic, are you 51 years old?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Are you a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina and a

    20 Muslim by faith?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Were you born in the Travnik Municipality in

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You could perhaps move a little closer, it

  6. 1 might make it a little easier for you to testify. That

    2 is fine.

    3 Mr. Kajmovic, did you earn a Bachelor of Arts

    4 degree in history from the University of Sarajevo in

    5 1974?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Thereafter, did you become a teacher of

    8 history at the Vitez High School from 1976 until April

    9 1993?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. While you were living in the Vitez

    12 Municipality, were you active in the civil and

    13 political affairs of that community, including being

    14 the President of the Muslim political party, the SDA?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Did you remain in Vitez Municipality until

    17 1994, that is after the end of the siege of

    18 Stari Vitez?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Now let me turn your attention to the area

    21 that I have asked you to come here to testify about,

    22 and that is a study that you undertook regarding

    23 demographics. First of all, Mr. Kajmovic, can you tell

    24 the judges about when you enrolled at the University of

    25 Sarajevo, the degree that you are pursuing, the topic

  7. 1 of your Master's thesis in general terms, please.

    2 A. Yes. From earlier on, I had a wish to pursue

    3 scholarship on a more serious level, but that was not

    4 possible at that time. After the armed conflict

    5 between the HVO and the BiH army, I decided to enrol

    6 into the graduate studies at the University of Sarajevo

    7 School of Political Science. This was in late 1994,

    8 and after about a year and a half, after I passed the

    9 exams required by the curriculum, by the programme of

    10 the graduate studies, I applied to the Lectures Council

    11 at the school to approve my thesis, whose topic was

    12 "The Demographic Changes in the Municipality of Vitez

    13 between 1992 and 1995".

    14 The faculty considered my application and

    15 they approved it eventually. I was assigned a

    16 professor who was going to be the mentor, who was going

    17 to follow the project and who was going to -- with whom

    18 I was going to consult. The faculty decided that this

    19 person should be the doctor Mirko Pejanovic, who is the

    20 professor in the -- Mr. Pejanovic was also a member of

    21 the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina at one point.

    22 After this topic was approved, I started my work on

    23 this project, and I am almost at the end of it.

    24 I should, this next June, I am supposed to defend this

    25 paper at the School of Political Science. The topic is

  8. 1 also of certain interest to the Tribunal, as

    2 I understand, and since I have given a statement

    3 regarding the events in Vitez, and so it happened that

    4 these -- there has been a confluence of interests here,

    5 and I can speak to certain results that I have reached

    6 researching this topic as regards the Municipality of

    7 Vitez. I do not know whether I should move on and

    8 start to elaborate on the topic.

    9 Q. Let me just ask you, you mentioned Dr. Mirko

    10 Pejanovic. He is a Serb, is he not? A Bosnian Serb?

    11 A. Yes, he is an ethnic Serb.

    12 Q. Before getting into your actual research, can

    13 you tell the court a little bit about the Vitez

    14 municipality itself, its size, its dimensions, certain

    15 characteristics about it?

    16 A. Yes, the Vitez Municipality is one of the

    17 smaller municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Its

    18 square area is 159 square kilometres, and it has 28,000

    19 inhabitants. The municipality is populated in its

    20 northern part. Ethnically the population was mixed,

    21 approximately 45 per cent of the population were

    22 Bosnian Croats, about 41 per cent Bosniaks, about

    23 5 per cent Bosnian Serbs. 4 point something per cent

    24 were Yugoslavs and the rest were others. Until --

    25 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, before we get into your actual

  9. 1 data, could you inform the court how you went about

    2 collecting the data for your thesis?

    3 A. Yes. When working on this thesis, of course

    4 I had to use certain sources, and since this is the

    5 issue of demographic changes that we are dealing with

    6 here, as a basis I used the census of 1991; that was

    7 the starting point. After that, I used sources that

    8 were institutions of legal powers of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    9 in the territory of the Vitez Municipality; I used data

    10 of the Territorial Defence headquarters, and then there

    11 was an internal census that was taken at the end of

    12 1995 in the territory of the municipality that was

    13 under the control of the BiH army.

    14 I also used data of the service of the local

    15 commune of Vitez, that was the Bosniak part. Then

    16 I used Red Cross Vitez data. I also used the data of

    17 the Merhamet Society, except for those data I also

    18 relied heavily on my own research in the field. Given

    19 that the Vitez Municipality is fairly small in size,

    20 that the area of the territory of the municipality is

    21 relatively small and that I knew quite a few people

    22 very well, I was able to do some personal research and

    23 I got some relevant data on that basis. So from that

    24 point of view, I had no problem in getting to the

    25 sources and to provide an objective picture of the

  10. 1 demographics.

    2 What I had problems with was the part of the

    3 territory that was under the control of the HVO,

    4 because the relations there are still such that there

    5 is absolutely no possibility -- there is not even a

    6 possibility of free movement, let alone getting hold of

    7 certain data, so there I had to apply different

    8 methods. There I had to start with a data basis which

    9 was based on the census that was done in 1991, and then

    10 I did some indirect research in the field. I did that

    11 in several local communes, that is those administrative

    12 units. There were five or six such administrative

    13 territorial units where I indirectly gathered data.

    14 The way I gathered this data was basically this.

    15 In these local communes, Bosnian Croats had

    16 not moved, so the data from 1991 was unchanged. So

    17 from those territories, the Bosnians had moved, and

    18 other ethnic groups, and I -- so I gathered this data

    19 in such a way that I used the 1991 data, that is the

    20 average members per household was 3.70 persons. Then

    21 I applied this number to other data that I received

    22 from the field: that is, Bosniaks would visit these

    23 local communes, they would go to their cemeteries, and

    24 they gathered data how many Bosniak houses were burnt

    25 down or destroyed; in other words that were

  11. 1 uninhabited.

    2 I already had the data on a number of such

    3 households, so I used that data that they gave me on

    4 the functional households and whether they are

    5 inhabited.

    6 Then on the basis of this information,

    7 I multiplied the number of these households by 3.7, and

    8 I got the data on the number of the Bosnian Croats who

    9 were resident there, so these data are not absolutely

    10 accurate, but everything points to maybe 5 to 6 points

    11 of error margin at the most. So this is how I arrived

    12 at the structure, the numbers of the Bosnian Croats in

    13 the Vitez Municipality.

    14 When I gathered all the relevant data,

    15 I could then proceed to analyse and to precisely

    16 determine what the demographic structure was in 1991,

    17 and what the situation was in 1995. My position is

    18 that the information is fairly accurate, especially

    19 when it regards the demographic changes in the area of

    20 the municipality which is under the control of the

    21 BiH army; that is the changes that reflect the changes

    22 among the Bosniaks. I also feel that the data

    23 regarding the Bosnian Croats are reliable, but still

    24 I have certain reservations there, because there could

    25 be an error margin of 5 to 6 points there.

  12. 1 So basically, this is the technology and the

    2 method of work which I applied to this particular

    3 topic.

    4 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, in the course of collecting your

    5 data, one of the most important parts of your data

    6 collection included interviews with people in the

    7 community itself and displaced persons; is that

    8 correct?

    9 A. Yes. For all the local communes and

    10 inhabited settlements from which the Bosniaks were

    11 removed, I talked to the local residents and I gathered

    12 the data. It was not such a difficult task, because

    13 there were not that many people and then there were not

    14 many communes like that, so there were not large

    15 numbers. I know all these local communes well and a

    16 fair number of people too.

    17 MR. HARMON: Mr. Kajmovic, let us start then

    18 with your demographic data for 1991 for the Vitez

    19 municipality and in that regard, let me have the usher

    20 bring to you the first binder which contains three

    21 exhibits which, Mr. Dubuisson, I believe would be

    22 exhibits 192, 193 and 194; is that correct?

    23 Mr. President and your Honours, in respect of

    24 192, there is a French and English translation

    25 attached. The same is true with 193 and there is

  13. 1 neither an English nor a French translation for 194,

    2 because reproducing it in French and English would have

    3 lost the colours that are found on exhibit 194. It is

    4 not a very complex exhibit and I think we can read or

    5 have the witness read the script on 194 if the court

    6 please.

    7 Mr. Usher, if you could put those exhibits

    8 before the witness, the three exhibits.

    9 Mr. Kajmovic, what I would like you to do, if

    10 you would, would you kindly explain to the judges,

    11 using exhibits 192, 193 and 194 what your findings were

    12 in respect of the demographic data for 1991. I have

    13 informed you earlier on how to use the ELMO, so if you

    14 just place those items on the ELMO as you testify, we

    15 can then proceed, I think, in a very effective manner.

    16 A. Shall I open this?

    17 MR. HARMON: You do not have to disassemble

    18 them. There should be a version on the top which is in

    19 your language that you can work from. It should come

    20 up in front of you on the video screen. If we could

    21 focus in on that complete exhibit, this is exhibit 192,

    22 Mr. President and counsel. If you could explain,

    23 Mr. Kajmovic, what that exhibit represents?

    24 A. Yes. Here we have the borders of the

    25 Municipality of Vitez. This is the dotted line . Then

  14. 1 we have the administrative territorial division of the

    2 Municipality of Vitez into 17 local communes, which are

    3 marked with numbers from 1 to 17, and in the right-hand

    4 corner, we have the list of the names of those local

    5 communes, so this is the administrative territorial

    6 division of the Municipality of Vitez into these

    7 smaller units. That is what is shown on this exhibit.

    8 Here we also have the names of the

    9 neighbouring municipalities bordering on the

    10 Municipality of Vitez. North of Vitez is the

    11 Municipality of Zenica. Then to the north-west is the

    12 Municipality of Travnik. To the east is the

    13 Municipality of Busovaca, and to the northern part is

    14 the neighbouring Municipality of Novi Travnik, which is

    15 not shown on the screen, and a small segment of the

    16 Municipality of Fojnica, which also borders on the

    17 Municipality of Vitez. Now you can see it. Here it

    18 is, Novi Travnik (indicates).

    19 Q. Please, Mr. Kajmovic, if you would then

    20 explain the demographic data for the Vitez Municipality

    21 in 1991 using the other exhibits in front of you. You

    22 can remove the exhibit in front of you and place other

    23 exhibits on the ELMO as you wish in making your

    24 explanation.

    25 Mr. Usher, I think Mr. Kajmovic will be able to

  15. 1 manipulate those three exhibits for the time being. If

    2 he has difficulty, I will ask you to assist. Thank

    3 you.

    4 A. Here on the screen we have a table of the

    5 ethnic composition of the population of the Vitez

    6 municipality according to the 1991 census. The

    7 composition of the population is worked out by

    8 inhabited places, and it is indicated how many people

    9 lived in each local community, according to the 1991

    10 census, and also how that population was composed

    11 ethnically. So at the bottom line, it shows the sum,

    12 the total number of inhabitants. In the first column,

    13 we have the number of Bosnian Croats living there,

    14 according to the 1991 census, in each of the local

    15 communes and at the bottom, the sum total. In those

    16 same local communes, we have indicated in the second

    17 column the percentage share of the Croats.

    18 Then in the third column the figures are

    19 given for the number of Bosniaks living in the

    20 Municipality of Vitez, in the same local communes, and,

    21 by looking at those columns crosswise, we can see the

    22 ethnic composition, how many people of which ethnic

    23 origin inhabited which local commune. Then we can see

    24 the percentage share in the fourth column.

    25 The fifth column indicates the number of

  16. 1 Serbs, then the sixth column their percentage share in

    2 the total. Then the number of Yugoslavs in the next

    3 column, their percentage share, and finally what was

    4 known as "Others", their percentage share, and at the

    5 end we have the total population of the Vitez

    6 Municipality according to the 1991 census, and the

    7 percentages.

    8 Therefore the table gives a review of the

    9 ethnic composition and, of course, the number of

    10 inhabitants of the Vitez Municipality, and it served as

    11 a basis for monitoring all other demographic changes

    12 that took place in the Municipality, and it was done on

    13 the basis of the statistical book of the Statistics

    14 Institute of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    15 According to this table, in 1991, there were

    16 12,675 Bosnian Croats living in the Vitez Municipality,

    17 or 45.49 per cent of the population. Then there were

    18 11,514 Bosniaks or 41.2 per cent. Then there were

    19 1,501 Bosnian Serbs, or 5.38 per cent; 1,377 Yugoslavs

    20 or 4.94 per cent, and 792 others, or 2.84 per cent, or

    21 the total population was 27,859.

    22 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, for the record, you have been

    23 referring to exhibit number 193. Now if you could turn

    24 to exhibit 194 and explain to the Trial Chamber what

    25 exhibit 194 is. First of all, place it on the ELMO.

  17. 1 First of all we need to get a focus on that complete

    2 exhibit. Could you move it up a little, Mr. Kajmovic,

    3 so it appears fully in the screen? That is fine, thank

    4 you. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what this

    5 exhibit represents?

    6 A. Yes. This exhibit indicates the ethnic

    7 composition of the population of the Vitez Municipality

    8 in 1991, but also how that population was distributed,

    9 so it is easy to see. In this document, here in the

    10 frame we have dots in various colours, blue dots

    11 indicating the number of Croats, Bosnian Croats in the

    12 Municipality of Vitez, since according to the census

    13 there were 45 per cent Bosnian Croats. On this

    14 document we have 45 dots, blue dots, so each dot stands

    15 for 1 per cent of the Bosnian Croats out of the total

    16 population of Vitez Municipality.

    17 Those blue dots are distributed on the table

    18 where they actually lived, so that we can see from

    19 those blue dots how the ethnic group, that is the

    20 Bosnian Croats, were distributed in the Vitez

    21 Municipality, and we can also see the ethnic mix of the

    22 population, that they were mixed together.

    23 The green dots on the document indicate the

    24 Bosniaks and their distribution within the

    25 Municipality. The red dots are the Bosnian Serbs and

  18. 1 their distribution in the municipality, then the brown

    2 or black dots are the Yugoslavs, and finally we have

    3 the white circles or white dots, indicating the others,

    4 the so-called "Others", because we had some other

    5 ethnic groups, which come under the heading of

    6 "Others".

    7 So this is a visual presentation of the

    8 population mix. Then here we also have a graphic

    9 presentation of this circle, indicating the percentage

    10 share of each group in the population, as we have

    11 already shown in the previous table.

    12 Q. All right, thank you. If the usher could now

    13 reassemble that particular exhibit, but leave it at the

    14 side of Mr. Kajmovic, we could now turn to a different

    15 set of exhibits, but let me begin by asking you a

    16 question, Mr. Kajmovic.

    17 During the war the Vitez Municipality was

    18 eventually divided into portions that were exclusively

    19 controlled by the HVO and other portions of the Vitez

    20 Municipality. They were exclusively controlled by the

    21 ABiH; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. In respect of the next set of exhibits which

    24 will be 195 through 199, I would ask you to explain

    25 your findings in the area that was exclusively

  19. 1 controlled by the HVO. Please discuss with the judges

    2 your findings in respect of the displacement of ethnic

    3 groups within that area and the causes for that

    4 displacement. If you can identify by number, if you

    5 can, Mr. Kajmovic, the number of the exhibit that you

    6 have placed on the ELMO so we can refer to it later in

    7 the record?

    8 A. It is exhibit 195.

    9 Q. Can you now explain to the court what exhibit

    10 195 represents?

    11 A. This document shows the Vitez Municipality.

    12 These are the boundaries of the municipality. Then it

    13 also shows the lines when a cessation of hostilities

    14 took place on 25th February 1995. Actually, those

    15 lines of confrontation, this is this line -- line of

    16 separation rather -- and in the southern part of the

    17 municipality, there is this line (indicates). Here we

    18 have a small section which is under the control of the

    19 BiH army in the centre. The green circles indicate the

    20 positions of the BiH army on 25th February 1994, and the

    21 blue triangles indicate the military positions of the

    22 HVO.

    23 Those would be the lines of separation of

    24 military forces on 25th February when the truce came

    25 into effect; that is the Washington Agreement came into

  20. 1 force, but later, as can be seen, a final line of

    2 separation was drawn. The document shows which part of

    3 the Vitez Municipality remained in the control of the

    4 BiH army, and which part of the municipality remained in

    5 the control of the HVO, so this part, inside remained

    6 under the control of the HVO; and this part (indicates)

    7 under the control of the BiH army, as well as this part

    8 here, under the BiH army control, and this small segment

    9 here in the centre, called Stari Vitez, it is still

    10 under the control of the BiH army.

    11 Q. Now Mr. Kajmovic, could you turn to your next

    12 exhibit which perhaps illustrates that even more

    13 clearly, which is exhibit 196. You have now put 196 on

    14 the ELMO, and that shows, does it not, Mr. Kajmovic,

    15 with the fleurs-de-lis the areas controlled by the ABiH

    16 and the chequer board indicates the area controlled by

    17 the HVO; is that correct?

    18 A. Yes. Here we have one line now, that is the

    19 final line , delineated in the negotiations between the

    20 representatives of the army and the HVO, so the space

    21 between the two lines does not exist any more. There

    22 is the final line of territorial separation, so this

    23 area is under the control of the HVO and the these two

    24 parts, plus this small segment here, under the control

    25 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and these symbols

  21. 1 indicate under whose control the area is, which part

    2 and how big a part.

    3 Let me also just add that the percentage

    4 share of the territory, of the area of 159 square

    5 kilometres, of that 75 per cent is under BiH army

    6 control and 25 per cent under HVO control and this can

    7 be seen here where the percentage is indicated.

    8 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, now turning to the remaining

    9 exhibits in this particular package, could you explain

    10 to the court your findings in respect of the ethnic

    11 displacement of the various groups within the area, the

    12 zone controlled by the HVO?

    13 A. In the previous documents, we were able to

    14 see that there was a mixture of ethnic groups in the

    15 territory of the municipality, and it was to a

    16 considerable degree in evidence in this area too, which

    17 is now under the control of the HVO. After the

    18 cessation of hostilities, an entirely different ethnic

    19 composition was created as compared to what we had in

    20 1991. I was extremely intrigued by this problem; that

    21 is I wanted to see why this ethnic displacement had

    22 taken place, whether it was perhaps the military and

    23 political goal to achieve this ethnic separation of the

    24 population, and that was an additional motive for me to

    25 delve into these issues. Then I established what the

  22. 1 changes were.

    2 The ethnic changes did not occur only in this

    3 area under the control of the HVO, of course. Certain

    4 ethnic displacements occurred also in this area that is

    5 under the control of the BiH army, but the reasons are

    6 quite different that led to this. The reasons are

    7 absolutely not the same, nor are the causes the same.

    8 The causes and reasons are quite different.

    9 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, could you use the other exhibits

    10 that are part of this package to illustrate the

    11 demographic changes? What is the exhibit number on

    12 that, please, Mr. Kajmovic? If you turn it over, that

    13 should perhaps be exhibit 197; is that correct?

    14 A. Yes, it is exhibit 197. Actually, here we

    15 have two tables, but I should like to turn back for a

    16 moment to exhibit 196, to show you which part of the

    17 territory we are referring to. That is the question

    18 that I wish to address. We are talking about changes

    19 in this part of the territory (indicates).

    20 So here we have two tables, showing what the

    21 population structure of the population was in this area

    22 that I showed a moment ago in 1991. It can be seen

    23 from this document that there were 11,704 Bosnian

    24 Croats living in that area, or 60.2 per cent; that

    25 there were 4,691 Bosniaks, or 24.12 per cent; that

  23. 1 there were 1,240 Serbs or 6.3 per cent; 1,081

    2 Yugoslavs, or 5.6 per cent; others 725 or

    3 3.72 per cent, which makes a total of 19,441

    4 inhabitants in this part of the territory, which was

    5 under the control of the HVO after the cessation of

    6 hostilities.

    7 The second table tells us how many people

    8 were expelled from that part of the territory, people

    9 of non-Croatian ethnicity. Therefore the second table

    10 shows that -- we have the number of 4,611 Bosniaks

    11 expelled from that area, who had lived there until

    12 1991. Then the number of Serbs, 1,140, and it should

    13 be noted however that the Serbs were not expelled after

    14 all, they were not expelled. They did not leave the

    15 territory of Vitez Municipality under pressure. They

    16 mostly left prior to the outbreak of the conflict, that

    17 is before 16th April 1993, upon the call of SDS and

    18 Karadzic.

    19 Then we have the Yugoslavs, 437 and others,

    20 470, which makes a total of 6,658 inhabitants who had

    21 lived there in 1991, are no longer living in this area

    22 which is under the control of the HVO, so that is the

    23 substance of this second table, and this document.

    24 Q. Please continue, Mr. Kajmovic. Testify if you

    25 would in a narrative form, informing the court and

  24. 1 counsel of your findings using all of the exhibits

    2 before you. This next exhibit, Mr. Kajmovic, I take it

    3 is 198; is that correct?

    4 A. Yes, 198. We saw from the previous document

    5 that 6,658 persons or inhabitants were expelled from

    6 this area under the control of the HVO, with the

    7 exception that the Serbs were not expelled, that is

    8 1,140 of them. . Among those expelled were 4,611

    9 Bosniaks. I studied this problem in order to find out

    10 where they sought shelter, where they were expelled to

    11 and where they have continued to live after the

    12 cessation of hostilities and I established and showed

    13 on this table where they are currently residing.

    14 Within the Municipality of Vitez, 1,128

    15 Bosniaks stayed behind, so they moved to that part of

    16 the municipality which was under the control of the

    17 BiH army. Then 2,779 Bosniaks found some sort of

    18 accommodation in the neighbouring municipality of

    19 Zenica, and they continued to live there. Then 516

    20 Bosniaks found a new home in the 4 of

    21 Travnik; 113 went to other municipalities like

    22 Novi Travnik, Kakanj and so on and 75 of them left

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina and went abroad.

    24 So this table tells us where those people

    25 moved to after being expelled. On this exhibit, we

  25. 1 also have a graph of those displaced Bosniaks, so this

    2 first column tells us that 24.45 per cent of them

    3 remained within the territory of Vitez Municipality;

    4 the second group of 60.26 per cent in the territory of

    5 Zenica; 11.19 per cent went to the Travnik

    6 municipality, and 2.45 per cent to other

    7 municipalities, and 1.62 per cent abroad.

    8 Of course we do not have documents here to

    9 show what the situation is as regards Bosnian Croats,

    10 because with a few exceptions, they have remained

    11 within the territory of Vitez Municipality, or rather

    12 in the area under the control of the HVO.

    13 Q. Please continue, Mr. Kajmovic, with other

    14 exhibits that are attached in this set. Now I believe

    15 you are referring to exhibit 199; is that correct?

    16 A. Yes, 199. This exhibit shows the ethnic

    17 composition of the population also in the part of the

    18 territory of Vitez Municipality which is under HVO

    19 control in 1995, so we are talking only about that part

    20 of the municipality, and this table gives us figures

    21 for that.

    22 From this table, we see by local communes,

    23 but perhaps it is more interesting to follow the bottom

    24 line of figures, because these are sum totals, showing

    25 the following facts. In this area, the first column,

  26. 1 we have the figure of 15,221, that is a number

    2 indicating that at the end of 1995, there were 15,221

    3 Bosnian Croats living in that area. This column shows

    4 -- if it is compared with the situation in 1991, then

    5 we see that there are more Croats there now, a little

    6 more than 2,500 more than there were in 1991.

    7 The second column says that it is

    8 93.38 per cent. Then we see how many Bosniaks have

    9 remained in that area by local communes, and if we will

    10 look up the column from top to bottom, we will see a

    11 lot of zeros there, because there are no Bosniaks at

    12 all living there, and at the end you have the figure of

    13 80, which means that out of the 4,611 Bosniaks, only 80

    14 remain, and they are living in this area under the

    15 control of the HVO.

    16 The third column, or rather the fifth column,

    17 gives us the number of Serbs. There are about 100 of

    18 them and we know that in 1991 there were 1,501 of them,

    19 but in their case, as we have already pointed out, it

    20 was a political decision of the SDS and they moved out

    21 of the Vitez Municipality voluntarily. Then columns 6

    22 and 7 indicate the number of Yugoslavs, 664, and

    23 finally others, 255, which tells us that in the area

    24 under HVO control at the end of 1995, there were 16,300

    25 inhabitants.

  27. 1 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, the bar chart that is underneath

    2 that table reflects the various percentages and totals

    3 of the various ethnic groups living in the

    4 HVO-controlled area in 1995; is that correct?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. I think that is self-explanatory: it just

    7 reflects, does it not, Mr. Kajmovic, the figures and the

    8 percentages that are reflected in the table above it?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Okay.

    11 A. In here we have a graph just reflecting the

    12 data from up above, so the first column shows that

    13 15,221 Bosnian Croats were living in that area, and the

    14 rest of the bars just show the rest of them. The

    15 Bosniaks are 0.49 per cent, the Serbs 0.61, the

    16 Yugoslavs 3.95 and the others 1.58. So the demographic

    17 picture has been changed considerably in comparison to

    18 what was there in 1991, so between 1991 and 1995 there

    19 has been a considerable change and now it is basically

    20 a single ethnic group area.

    21 Q. In respect of the displacement of the Muslim

    22 population in the HVO controlled territory, can you

    23 identify the causes of that displacement to the Trial

    24 Chamber?

    25 A. Yes. The Bosniak population for the most

  28. 1 part has been expelled from the territory under the

    2 control of the HVO and it was expelled under pressure,

    3 so this was a policy whose goal and whose means was the

    4 so-called ethnic cleansing of the area; that is the

    5 expulsion of the population, Bosniaks most of all, and

    6 so that was both the goal and that was the means.

    7 There were different forms of pressure, so that this

    8 population would leave this area under the control of

    9 the HVO.

    10 What forms were these? It was breaking into

    11 apartments and houses, threat at gun point, abuse of --

    12 various forms of abuse of people, and from the start of

    13 the hostilities, within three or four months they had

    14 to leave this area, so they were leaving under pressure

    15 and they were crossing the front-lines and moving into

    16 the area of the municipality under the control of the

    17 army. Some of the population also left the area

    18 controlled by the HVO in the form of exchanges, the

    19 population exchanges. That was a smaller percentage,

    20 but part of the population was also, so to speak,

    21 expelled in this way from the area controlled by the

    22 HVO.

    23 Q. So Mr. Kajmovic, did your findings support the

    24 fact that after the cease-fire in April 1993, some

    25 number of Muslims remained in the HVO-controlled

  29. 1 portions of the Vitez Municipality, but they were

    2 ultimately forced out by the HVO?

    3 A. Yes. I mentioned that 4,011 Bosniaks were

    4 expelled. Until the attack of the HVO, they lived in

    5 their own houses. After this attack, in the first few

    6 days, part of the population was expelled, and in cases

    7 like Ahmici, there was a genocide perpetrated, so there

    8 were some Bosnians who were expelled like in Gacice and

    9 Veceriska, local communes, so that was the part of

    10 municipalities that was the villages, and there for the

    11 most part people were already expelled in the first

    12 days of the conflict, and the rest of them, about 1,600

    13 lived in the urban part of Vitez, in the town of

    14 Vitez.

    15 This part of the population had a different

    16 fate. They had no possibility of escape. They had no

    17 opportunity to reach the territory under the control of

    18 the BiH army, because they were surrounded by the HVO

    19 front lines, so they were at home, they could not move,

    20 and part of that population was arrested by the HVO and

    21 taken to the camps, like the SDK building, the People's

    22 University, the elementary school in Dubravica, the

    23 veterinary station. For the most part, the conscripts

    24 were arrested and detained. After three or four days,

    25 some kind of a cease-fire was established which again

  30. 1 was not respected, and after this period a gradual

    2 expulsion of these 1,600 Bosniaks ensues from the urban

    3 part of Vitez.

    4 A smaller percentage, feeling threatened and

    5 unsafe, looked for ways to leave this urban area of

    6 Vitez that was under the control of the HVO.

    7 I established this through interviews. I found out

    8 that they were looking for different channels and

    9 contacts, even Croatian friends, so that they would

    10 find ways to cross the front-lines, but the majority of

    11 the population was expelled in such a way that the HVO

    12 soldiers would break into their homes. They would give

    13 them deadlines, sometimes they would be a couple of

    14 hours, sometimes one day, for them to leave their

    15 houses or apartments.

    16 There was a case for instance, Niroga

    17 Mulahalilovic had the experience that his former

    18 student appeared, he said, "You know, director, I feel

    19 very awkward but I am here to tell you that you have to

    20 leave your apartment", so he collected a few belongings

    21 and then he crossed the front-line.

    22 In any event, the methods were different, but

    23 behind them all, there was an element of force that was

    24 employed.

    25 Q. Now Mr. Kajmovic, I would like to turn to the

  31. 1 next set of exhibits with the assistance of the usher.

    2 They will be exhibits 200 and 201, and these exhibits

    3 will focus your attention on those parts of the Vitez

    4 municipality that remained under the control of the

    5 ABiH. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber and

    6 to counsel your findings in respect of the movement of

    7 ethnic populations from the areas controlled by the

    8 ABiH, and please use these exhibits that are before

    9 you.

    10 A. This document, number 200 -- we cannot see it

    11 now on the monitor. I do not know if I pushed

    12 anything.

    13 Q. I cannot see it either.

    14 A. Maybe I touched something here.

    15 MR. HARMON: We seem to have a technical

    16 problem, Mr. President. I do not know if you are

    17 getting an image on your screens, I am not on mine, and

    18 Mr. Kajmovic is not on his.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps we could continue

    20 anyway, because the judges have the documents.

    21 A. Fine. Here is a document similar to the

    22 previous one --

    23 JUDGE JORDA: We do not have them,

    24 Mr. Dubuisson, do we? Let the witness explain the

    25 documents, even if we do not see them on the screens.

  32. 1 We do not want to waste any time. Meanwhile the

    2 technicians will try to fix it?

    3 MR. HARMON: Does your Honour have a set of

    4 these documents?

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, we do. When I said we do

    6 not have it, I meant we do not have it on our screens.

    7 A. It is a document similar to the previous one,

    8 except that it reflects the demographic changes in the

    9 territory of the Vitez Municipality under the control

    10 of the ABiH, so the first chart reflects the ethnic

    11 structure of the population in 1991 in the area under

    12 the control of the Army of BiH, and there we see that

    13 in 1991 there were 971 Bosnian Croats in the first

    14 horizontal column, 6,823 Bosniaks; 261 Serbs, 296

    15 Yugoslavs, 67 others, a total of 8,418, and then this

    16 is also reflected in percentages.

    17 The second chart, we have figures on the

    18 population that has been moved from the territory under

    19 the control of the army, and here the data reflects

    20 that 946 Bosnian Croats were moved; the second column

    21 is empty, because there were no movements of Bosniaks;

    22 254 Bosnian Serbs, 22 Yugoslavs and others 21; a total

    23 of 1,243.

    24 The second table shows that 946 Croats moved,

    25 and I need to explain this move.

  33. 1 MR. HARMON: Mr. Kajmovic, before you explain

    2 that move, the ELMO is now functional again, so if you

    3 could place that on the ELMO, your chart, the public

    4 will have the benefit of your testimony as well?

    5 A. My research confirmed some of the political

    6 knowledge that we already had about the movements of

    7 the Bosniaks in the Vitez Municipality. It is similar

    8 to the other area in Central Bosnia. We have a

    9 particular principle here at work. In the areas that

    10 were not -- that did not come under the HVO control, so

    11 we are talking about the area that is not under the HVO

    12 control and there was movement of Croatian population,

    13 the reasons were the following. The HVO followed very

    14 strictly a principle which was that at any cost Bosnian

    15 Croats be moved to the areas that were under their

    16 military control, so from the areas where there was no

    17 HVO military control to the area where they had the

    18 military control, and they used all kinds of means. It

    19 was the propaganda, the Croats were invited to leave

    20 the areas under the control of the army and move to the

    21 areas under the control of the HVO.

    22 Speaking specifically of the Vitez

    23 municipality, there were two forms of movement of the

    24 Bosnian Croats from the area which came under the

    25 control of the BiH army. One part of Croats left the

  34. 1 area which, as it later turned out, remained under the

    2 control of the BiH army. In the night between 15th and

    3 16th April, so that night, part of the Bosnian Croats

    4 left the area which remained under the control of the

    5 BiH army. This example is the one we have in the

    6 Stari Vitez. There were a number of families who lived

    7 in the lower part, and during that night, they moved to

    8 the part of town that had been under the HVO control

    9 even prior to 16th April. About 20 Croats remained in

    10 Stari Vitez though.

    11 Then another part of Croats, about 400 from

    12 Poculica local commune, on the morning of the

    13 16th which was when the conflict started, and since

    14 they could not control that area militarily, this

    15 number of about 400 Croats withdrew; that is they moved

    16 in those early morning hours to the part of town and

    17 the area that was under the control of the HVO; that is

    18 the area around Dubravica and farther towards Vitez.

    19 So for the most part, this move by the

    20 Bosnian Croats took place partly on the eve of the

    21 attack and the rest, the larger percentage, happened

    22 within a day or two after that. I also want to stress

    23 that the 400 Croats from Poculica withdrew when the

    24 armed conflict started between the army and the HVO.

    25 It is at that point that they moved out and withdrew to

  35. 1 this area.

    2 I reached no conclusion as to any kind of

    3 pressure that these Croats had to move out; in fact for

    4 about a year I was Commander of the civilian defence

    5 there, and we always took efforts to make sure that

    6 these Croats also received the same humanitarian aid

    7 that the rest of the population did. It should not be

    8 discounted that a certain amount of pressure had been

    9 exercised on some of the Croats to move out of this

    10 area.

    11 I want to also stress that out of 946 Croats,

    12 most of them moved out in the first couple of days, so

    13 this movement of Croatian population for the most part

    14 happened at that time. But again I want to stress that

    15 there was no pressure except maybe for some individual

    16 cases which cannot be excluded in the events of that

    17 kind. So this is what this document speaks of.

    18 I believe that I have explained that.

    19 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, yet another document in front of

    20 you --

    21 A. Right, right. Let me just add that a total

    22 of 1,243 persons moved out of the area under the

    23 control of the Army of BiH.

    24 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, could you also turn to a table

    25 and a graph.

  36. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: I just want to verify one

    3 point. You said that most of those who moved moved in

    4 the first couple of days. What do you mean "the first

    5 couple of days"?

    6 A. Yes. I think the first or first two days,

    7 meaning 16th and 17th April. The night of 15th /16th,

    8 the day of the 16th and the following day of 17th April

    9 1993, so what I have in mind is 16th and 17th April

    10 1993.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    12 MR. HARMON: Mr. Kajmovic, in front of you is

    13 exhibit 201. If we could get the proper focus on that

    14 exhibit it would be helpful.

    15 A. Yes, 201.

    16 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, you are going to testify first

    17 of all about the table -- on the ELMO, if the focus

    18 could be brought down on the table itself, so the

    19 figures could be seen clearly. Mr. Kajmovic, perhaps if

    20 you could centre that diagram, or perhaps the usher can

    21 assist in this case.

    22 Mr. Usher, if you could show just the table,

    23 the top part of that diagram, centre it there. Thank

    24 you.

    25 A. This document reflects the ethnic structure

  37. 1 of the Vitez Municipality that was under the control of

    2 the BiH army. So this is the area that we have been

    3 talking about just a moment ago and from which as we

    4 said 1,243 persons left. Of course, this population

    5 movement of the population under the control of the

    6 BiH army was unforced. There was a number of Serbs here

    7 who lived in Stolevic, about 150 of them, and they left

    8 this area even before 16th April, so in this chart we

    9 see the demographic structure of the population in

    10 1995; that is after the changes which were brought

    11 about by the war.

    12 So in the first column, there is a number of

    13 Bosniaks who live in this area, and this is 8,282, or

    14 95.92 per cent. The other columns reflects the number

    15 of Croats, so if we look at column number 3, there are

    16 only 25 Bosnian Croats remaining to reside in this area

    17 at the end of 1995. Then Bosnian Serbs, 7,274

    18 Yugoslavs and 45 others. So the total at the end of

    19 1995 is 8,634 inhabitants. The main characteristics of

    20 these changes as reflected in this chart are that this

    21 too is now also ethnically a pretty cleansed area, but

    22 there has been much less movement of population in the

    23 area controlled by the HVO. There was more than 6,000

    24 who moved, whereas here it is only 1,243.

    25 Also the methods whereby people moved were

  38. 1 different in the area controlled by the HVO. Part of

    2 the population moved voluntarily, like the Serbs, and

    3 in the -- and also some of the Croats moved because

    4 they were told to do so by the HVO. We also have

    5 the -- we see the bars here that reflect this

    6 mono-ethnic population in 1995. So this is just a

    7 graphic means of expressing the same numbers and we see

    8 that it is significant in this area as well, even

    9 though they were brought about by different means and

    10 they reflect different motives.

    11 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, I was just looking at the

    12 transcript. You indicated in the transcript that there

    13 was much less movement -- much less population movement

    14 in the areas controlled by the HVO. Did you mean the

    15 HVO or the areas controlled by the ABiH?

    16 A. I said that in this area under the control of

    17 the army, 1,243 persons moved. This is in reference to

    18 the documents which we saw before, and that is a much

    19 lesser number, because in the other area, over 6,000

    20 people moved, but the problem is not this. It is also

    21 an important fact, whether there is 5 people or 5,000

    22 people, but the essence is that the population from the

    23 area controlled by the HVO were forced out, whereas in

    24 the area under the control of the BiH army they were not

    25 moved by force; in other words the population moved

  39. 1 voluntarily, like the Serbs did, or the Croats who left

    2 certain areas by invitation of the HVO to move to the

    3 area under their control, and the other reason why some

    4 of the Croats left the area controlled by the BiH army

    5 was the pressure, but it was pressure on the basis of

    6 the military operations. I mentioned Poculica, I could

    7 have also mentioned part of Kruscica which is called

    8 Bobasi. That is where Croats lived and when the

    9 front-line moved, they had to withdraw from that area

    10 because of the combat operations that were taking place

    11 there. There was no daily pressure breaking into the

    12 homes to force them to move from that area.

    13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kajmovic. I am going

    14 to turn to a different area of your study. You

    15 mentioned earlier and you showed us a graphic that the

    16 Vitez Municipality was divided into 17 local communes.

    17 Many of those particular communes remained either

    18 exclusively in the territory controlled by the HVO or

    19 exclusively in the territory controlled by the ABiH,

    20 but some of those local communes were in fact divided

    21 by the confrontation lines; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. I would like to turn, if I could, to the

    24 fourth set of exhibits, which will be exhibits 202

    25 through 205 which, Mr. Kajmovic, as you will shortly see

  40. 1 are tables showing the population movements of the

    2 various ethnic groups within the local communes

    3 themselves, so if you would be so kind starting with

    4 exhibit 202 by placing that on the ELMO and explaining

    5 to the members of the Trial Chamber what this exhibit

    6 represents, and then we will go through the remaining

    7 other exhibits, 203 and 204 and 205. I appreciate it,

    8 thank you.

    9 A. This is a document which compares the figures

    10 and it gives the comparison of the number of Bosniaks

    11 in 1991 as compared to the number in 1995. So we have

    12 the figures for each local commune, and the table tells

    13 us exactly how many Bosniaks were living in each local

    14 community in 1991 and how many of them were left in

    15 1995. If we take for instance this first horizontal

    16 line, the number of Bosniaks living in Sadovaca local

    17 commune, there were 369 of them.

    18 Here is the percentage as compared to the

    19 total number of inhabitants of the local commune. Then

    20 we have the number of expelled Bosniaks by the end of

    21 the war, that is the end of 1995, and the number of

    22 Bosniaks that remained in 1995 were 380. This is the

    23 number of Bosniaks at the end of 1995, but we cannot

    24 see any expulsion of Bosniaks; in fact there are a few

    25 more of them than there were. This is because that

  41. 1 part of the local commune remained under the control of

    2 the BiH army, whereas the part of the same local commune

    3 under the control of the HVO is inhabited by Bosnian

    4 Croats, so there was no shifting of the lines between

    5 the ethnic territories.

    6 In the local commune of Bukva, again we have

    7 no ethnic changes because it is a single ethnic

    8 communities inhabited by Bosniaks. In fact the number

    9 of inhabitants increased due to refugees coming from

    10 the area under the control of the HVO. Then the local

    11 commune of Lupac, again no changes because it is a

    12 Bosniak settlement, Preocica the same; Stare Bila, we

    13 have a change. For instance there were 2,929 Bosniaks

    14 living there in 1991 and at the end of 1995, we see the

    15 figure zero, which means that all 2,929 of them had

    16 been expelled. Then the local commune of Jardol, there

    17 used to be 743 Bosniaks living there in 1991. At the

    18 end of 1995, there are none; they were all expelled.

    19 Then the local commune of Krcevine in 1991

    20 and it is under HVO control. This local commune, there

    21 were 173 Bosniaks, and we see the figure of 134, which

    22 means somewhat less than before, but this is due to the

    23 fact that the northern part of that local commune

    24 remains under the BiH army control, so the Bosniaks

    25 stayed on there. In Dubravica, we have the number of

  42. 1 Bosniaks, 447; then somewhat less, 358. There are

    2 fewer of them because a part of that local commune was

    3 under the control of the HVO, and that is why the total

    4 number is smaller because the local commune has been

    5 cut in half, so they have remained in the area under

    6 the army control, whereas the area under HVO control

    7 there are none.

    8 Then the local commune of 25th May there were

    9 471 Bosniaks. We see there are 316 of them now, which

    10 is somewhat less. Again the same applies to this local

    11 commune, because it was cut in half. The area under

    12 army control has retained its Bosniak population,

    13 whereas the area under HVO control has none.

    14 Then Ahmici, it is a specific case. In 1991,

    15 there were 506 Bosniaks living there, 508, and here we

    16 see that there are none left. There are no Bosniaks

    17 left there, because they were expelled in the first two

    18 days of the fighting, 16th and 17th April, and, of

    19 course, 117 people were killed.

    20 The local commune of Poculica, with respect

    21 to Bosniaks, there were no population changes because

    22 it remained under the control of the army; in fact we

    23 have an increase of the number of Bosniaks due to

    24 people coming over from other areas. Then we have

    25 significant changes in the local communes of Vitez 1

  43. 1 and Vitez 2, which are dealt with jointly in this

    2 table, and we see that there were about 2,647 Bosniaks

    3 living there, that there are now 1,166, which means

    4 that about 1,500 have been expelled, which is from the

    5 part of the town that is under HVO control. They have

    6 remained in that small part called Stari Vitez which

    7 remains under the control of the BiH army.

    8 Then the local commune of Rijeka; here we

    9 have some minor changes in the population. We will be

    10 able to see later what those changes are. A part of

    11 this local commune also remained under the control of

    12 the army and a part under the HVO control, so that the

    13 population was expelled from the part under the HVO

    14 control, though a small percentage did remain as part

    15 of those 80 people I mentioned. Then the local commune

    16 of Kruscica, there were no significant changes with

    17 respect to the Bosniak population. That local commune

    18 is also divided by the separation line; a part is under

    19 the control of the army, a part under the HVO, and that

    20 is why there are no major changes.

    21 Then the local commune of Gacice, in the

    22 first line we see there were 325 Bosniaks and in the

    23 third column, we see a zero, which means all the

    24 Bosniaks were expelled from this local commune, because

    25 the HVO captured this local commune, the local commune

  44. 1 of Gacice.

    2 Veceriska, first we see there were 388

    3 Bosniaks; in the third line we see none, so this is

    4 another local commune captured by the HVO for three

    5 days, during the first few days of the conflict, and we

    6 have no Bosniaks there left.

    7 So there were a total of 11,514 Bosniaks in

    8 1991, and at the end of 1995, there are 8,352 of them.

    9 That is the reduction due to so-called ethnic

    10 cleansing.

    11 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, now could you turn to exhibits

    12 203, 204 and 205 and, without going into such detail,

    13 can you just briefly explain if those charts likewise

    14 compare the data between 1991 and 1995 --

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Harmon. I have to come

    16 in at this point. Obviously you cannot summarise

    17 months and months of studies, and we want to

    18 congratulate the witness for having done that, but we

    19 would like to see you explain the method, explain the

    20 other charts. Just start with the totals. Discuss the

    21 results of the research and point out those points

    22 which you think are the most important, such as the

    23 village of Sadovaca, where there was a correlation with

    24 the first chart you referred to. We do not want to

    25 spend the entire afternoon with these charts. You did

  45. 1 explain the issue of demographic changes, it has been

    2 explained well, and now let us try to synthesise the

    3 work that has been done. Thank you very much.

    4 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, then for the

    5 record, the remaining charts which are exhibits 203,

    6 204 and 205 are like comparative studies done in

    7 respect of the ethnic populations of Croats, Serbs and

    8 others in the various local communes in the Vitez

    9 municipality, comparing the data from 1991 to 1995. If

    10 the court desires, after taking a look at these

    11 exhibits briefly, any explanation from Mr. Kajmovic, he

    12 is prepared to expand further on those; otherwise we

    13 will turn to our additional set of exhibits, our last

    14 sets of exhibits.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: I would like the witness to

    16 explain something. We are not going to go from one

    17 extreme to another. I would like the witness to

    18 explain for the other three charts the general idea.

    19 If there are any specific comments that he wants to

    20 make, let him make them, but in general terms, this is

    21 what the judges would like the witness to do. Please

    22 go ahead.

    23 A. Yes, a summary. The substance, the aim was,

    24 as this is a case study in terms of research, this is

    25 considered a case study, and then one is able to enter

  46. 1 into the details at greater length, so I try to

    2 establish at the micro level what the actual changes

    3 were in each local commune and inhabited places.

    4 I believe that there are a lot of figures and data

    5 involved, so I think that we will not lose too much

    6 time if we go on to these last exhibits which show the

    7 final outcome of the ethnic cleansing.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I think that we could now

    9 move to another series of questions. It is almost

    10 self-evident, Mr. Harmon. If later the

    11 cross-examination by the Defence were to contest this

    12 or that figure, we would then go back to the details,

    13 but I think that if everybody agrees about the general

    14 sense of the testimony, we could move to another

    15 question. You must decide what is the best to do now.

    16 MR. HARMON: Fine, thank you, Mr. President.

    17 If I could have the assistance of the usher

    18 and move to my final two exhibits, which are 206 and

    19 207. This will put into focus the demographic changes

    20 in the whole of the Vitez Municipality, that is both

    21 areas, those areas controlled by the HVO and those

    22 areas controlled by the ABiH, and it will indicate the

    23 data in 1995. These obviously, Mr. President, can be

    24 compared with exhibits 193 and 194, which show the

    25 baseline data in 1991. If I could have Mr. Kajmovic

  47. 1 start with exhibit 206, which is a table and a graph,

    2 and if the table itself could be put into sharp focus,

    3 Mr. Kajmovic can start with the table itself, and then

    4 turn to the graph that is associated with it.

    5 A. Here we have a table showing the ethnic

    6 composition of the population of Vitez Municipality at

    7 the end of 1995; that is the ethnic composition that

    8 was the result of the war and of the ethnic cleansing.

    9 The first column gives us the number of Bosnian

    10 Croats. There were 15,246 of them as compared to

    11 1991. We see that their number has increased by about

    12 2,500. Then the number of Bosniaks, 8,362, as compared

    13 to 11,500, their number has gone down; the number of

    14 Serbs 107, as compared to 1,501 in 1991, again a

    15 drastic reduction; among the Yugoslavs, 1,377, there

    16 are 918 left; as for others, their number has gone down

    17 from about 790 to 301, and finally we have the total

    18 population which is 24,934, and we know that Vitez

    19 Municipality, at the end of 1991, had close to 28,000

    20 inhabitants.

    21 So here we have the collective figures of the

    22 ethnic structure, but the main goal of this table is

    23 not to show how much one ethnic group has decreased or

    24 another increased in number, but rather to show the

    25 zeros which show how extreme the ethnic cleansing was.

  48. 1 So, compared with the table for 1991, you will rarely

    2 in that table find a zero for any ethnic group in

    3 hardly any local commune, but here you will see quite a

    4 large number of those zeros, though this cannot be seen

    5 from this table, but the parts of local communes under

    6 the control of the HVO are completely without other

    7 inhabitants. But this cannot be seen from this table,

    8 in the case of local communes that were divided, but

    9 there is an obvious drastic change in the population

    10 structure.

    11 Then we have a graph, a bar chart, reflecting

    12 the composition of the population in 1995, and you can

    13 see that 61.14 per cent are Croats, whereas in 1991,

    14 they constituted 45 per cent of the total, which means

    15 their share has increased by more than 16 per cent.

    16 There were 41 per cent Bosniaks, there are

    17 33.53 per cent of them now, so that their number has

    18 gone down by about 7 or 8 per cent; the number of Serbs

    19 has also drastically decreased, but I must note that

    20 they left the area voluntarily. The number of

    21 Yugoslavs has gone down, but not to such an extent, and

    22 the number of others has also gone down, though not to

    23 the same extent as in the case of Bosniaks and Serbs.

    24 Those are the consequences of the ethnic cleansing.

    25 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, could you then turn to the last

  49. 1 exhibit which is exhibit 207, a map with various

    2 coloured dots. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber

    3 what this particular exhibit represents.

    4 A. Yes. At the beginning, we had a similar

    5 ethnic map which showed the distribution of the

    6 population in Vitez Municipality in 1991. Now we have

    7 another map showing how that population is ethnically

    8 distributed within the territory of Vitez

    9 Municipality. Comparing it with the first map, we can

    10 see that in this area which is under the control of the

    11 HVO, we have mostly blue dots, which stand for the

    12 percentage share of the Croats, and here we see the

    13 percentage that they constitute 61 per cent, so we have

    14 61 of these blue dots showing how those Bosnian Croats

    15 are distributed in this area.

    16 In this other part, in this other segment, we

    17 have these green dots, as well as up here, (indicates)

    18 which show that there are Bosniaks living there, and

    19 the number of dots is indicative of their percentage

    20 share, which is about 33 per cent. Here in this small

    21 circle which covers the territory of Stari Vitez, it

    22 shows us the percentage share of the population living

    23 there.

    24 There are -- the substance of this table is a

    25 review of the changes that have occurred in the

  50. 1 distribution of the population. So we have a

    2 significant departure from the previous distribution of

    3 the population, that is in 1991. So these are the

    4 figures that we have already mentioned, 6,000 and

    5 something inhabitants moved out of this part, whereas

    6 from these two parts 1,200 were displaced.

    7 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Kajmovic.

    8 Mr. President, I would now move into evidence

    9 Prosecution exhibits 192 through to 207. I have

    10 concluded my examination of Mr. Kajmovic, Mr. President.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: We will now take a break for 30

    12 minutes.

    13 (4.20 pm)

    14 (A short break)

    15 (5.00 pm)

    16 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing now,

    17 please have the accused brought in.

    18 (Accused brought in)

    19 JUDGE JORDA: We will begin with the

    20 cross-examination of the witness. Let me remind you

    21 that we are going to sit today until 7.00. Mr. Nobilo,

    22 go ahead.

    23 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO

    24 Q. Thank you, your Honour.

    25 Mr. Kajmovic, good evening. As you heard,

  51. 1 I am Anto Nobilo and together with Russell Hayman, my

    2 colleague, we represent General Blaskic and I am going

    3 to ask you a few questions. Has your work been

    4 published anywhere?

    5 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is

    6 not on, please.

    7 A. No, the paper has not been published yet.

    8 There is a plan to defend it in June or July, in front

    9 of the committee at the Political Science School in

    10 Sarajevo. There will be three PhD members of this

    11 committee.

    12 MR. NOBILO: Have you provided the Prosecution

    13 either an outline of your thesis or any tables?

    14 A. Only the part concerning demographic changes

    15 which were relevant for this topic were provided to the

    16 Prosecution.

    17 Q. This is what you gave to the Prosecutor?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we do not want any

    20 delay, and we will continue with the cross-examination,

    21 but I would just like to notify you that Mr. Kajmovic

    22 has been -- that we were notified of Mr. Kajmovic's

    23 testimony several months ago. We know him as a member

    24 of the Bosniak party. He is one of the key figures

    25 concerning the conflict there, but only on Friday did

  52. 1 we receive the information that Dr. Kajmovic would be

    2 called as an expert witness, and we received absolutely

    3 no accompanying documents. We feel that it was

    4 necessary for you to know this, but we will continue

    5 the cross-examination anyway.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: You did not even get the

    7 charts, the tables? You did not get any of that?

    8 MR. NOBILO: Nothing, your Honour, nothing.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?

    10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, under a court order

    11 that both Defence counsel and the Prosecutor

    12 understood, and have corresponded about in the past, it

    13 is our understanding that expert reports are not

    14 discoverable. That is based on a court order of this

    15 chamber issued many, many, many months ago. In the

    16 course of the subsequent conversations with counsel, we

    17 have had a dialogue in writing, in part, about that

    18 decision. I can provide a copy to the court of

    19 correspondence, but that has been our understanding,

    20 and we have operated on that in good faith.

    21 MR. HAYMAN: May I state our position?

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment, please. I am

    23 looking at things on a somewhat different level.

    24 I think there are two issues here. The issue was

    25 brought in because of his position in the SDA, that is

  53. 1 the first problem, but the second one is to do with

    2 what I would like to focus the debate on, which has to

    3 do with the expert report, which you cannot say really

    4 is a report because it has not been given as a report

    5 officially.

    6 I am referring to these charts, and

    7 I understand it is not easy to cross-examine if you

    8 base yourself only on charts. That is what I find a

    9 bit surprising, because when we think about it from the

    10 point of view of an adversarial system, the report

    11 should have been at least made available to the Defence

    12 or if not made available, that they would have been

    13 informed about it. There should have been a report.

    14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I received the

    15 tables myself this weekend when I started talking to

    16 Mr. Kajmovic. We were aware of the existence of

    17 those -- before this weekend, not just this weekend.

    18 The tables were not translated before the weekend.

    19 I have been working with them in order to get them in a

    20 form that I and your Honours would understand in order

    21 that they could be presented today. However, to answer

    22 your question directly, Mr. President, the charts were

    23 not turned over to counsel. When we concluded we would

    24 be having him testify about reports he brought with him

    25 from Bosnia to here, we informed counsel, but it took

  54. 1 some time for me to review and understand those, but

    2 they have not been provided to counsel, that is

    3 correct.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, do you want to

    5 comment?

    6 MR. HAYMAN: Please. Our position as to this

    7 witness, your Honour, is that his Master's thesis and

    8 any drafts of that thesis are not in the nature of an

    9 expert report, but are his statements. Even if it is a

    10 draft, it is still written by the witness, it is in his

    11 hand, and if any portions of that thesis have been

    12 provided to the Prosecutor, they were owed to the

    13 Defence as prior statements of the witness. I agree

    14 with Mr. Harmon that the court's earlier order did not

    15 direct the production of expert reports by the

    16 Prosecutor. Although we think that that would be a

    17 good idea, that is not the way the rules are in the

    18 system I am familiar with, where statements of experts

    19 are normally produced, but with respect to this

    20 witness, we are not raising that issue, we are simply

    21 suggesting that portions of his thesis were statements

    22 and that it would have facilitated things had we gotten

    23 them. But we wish to proceed; we do not wish to delay

    24 the proceedings.

    25 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I clarify one

  55. 1 point? That is the report, so it is perfectly clear

    2 for the record, any reports that Mr. Kajmovic had

    3 accompanying the tables were not in a language

    4 I understood, nor have they ever been translated by

    5 me. These tables and charts when I discussed the

    6 issues with Mr. Kajmovic were the tables and charts that

    7 he had contained in his study that would illuminate his

    8 efforts to assess the demographic changes. When we

    9 concluded that that would be an area of expert

    10 testimony, given the fact that there probably are very

    11 few people in the world who have studied the ethnic

    12 demographic changes in Vitez Municipality under what

    13 are extremely difficult circumstances, we concluded

    14 that he is -- would be an expert in the area. We

    15 notified counsel of that and I can say very honestly to

    16 this court, Mr. President, the reports that he has that

    17 accompany those tables and charts I have never read.

    18 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may, we

    19 understand the situation. However, you need to know

    20 that for months, we have been misled. For months we

    21 have looked at Mr. Munib Kajmovic as a key figure in the

    22 international conflict. He was the President of the

    23 SDA and led the efforts of the SDA during the conflict,

    24 and now we find out that he is an expert. Had we known

    25 that he would be called as an expert, that is how we

  56. 1 would have prepared our cross-examination, and that

    2 would have been our preparation for this hearing. But

    3 again, we are prepared to continue, nevertheless.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Nobilo and

    5 Mr. Harmon. While you were speaking, I was able to

    6 consult with my colleagues very quickly. As regards

    7 the first point, that having to do with the surprise

    8 you expressed that he is not testifying about that area

    9 about which he said he was an expert before that, that

    10 is not something that we can do anything about. We

    11 cannot do anything about that, because that was the

    12 strategy of the Prosecutor. However in order to ensure

    13 equitable treatment, my colleagues want me to speak for

    14 them and to say that if, confronted with these charts

    15 which are complicated and which would require possibly

    16 a thorough review, if at any point you would like to

    17 have this witness brought back again, the Tribunal will

    18 grant that wish and it can be done.

    19 MR. NOBILO: We will try to conduct the

    20 cross-examination, but if at the end of the

    21 cross-examination we determine that we have not

    22 illuminated all the details, we will request that the

    23 witness be recalled.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Then we agree.

    25 MR. NOBILO: Thank you.

  57. 1 Mr. Kajmovic, your mentor, Mr. Mirko Pejanovic,

    2 what is the area of his expertise?

    3 A. There are various subjects from the area of

    4 political science and I do not know exactly what topic

    5 he covers, because he was appointed to it by the

    6 faculty, but I think he covers various areas. For

    7 instance, he probably is a lecturer in the methodology,

    8 the social system, interest groups, so I do not know

    9 exactly what subject he is lecturing in right now.

    10 Q. What exactly is the title of your MA thesis?

    11 A. Political and demographic changes in the

    12 Vitez Municipality between 1992 and 1995.

    13 Q. When you conducted consultations about this

    14 thesis, was it agreed that you would reflect the

    15 demographic changes in numbers and statistics, or did

    16 you also agree on researching the causes of demographic

    17 movements?

    18 A. It was specified which aspects would be

    19 treated. The historical aspect from the Turkish era to

    20 Austro-Hungary and pre-World War II and the modern

    21 time, then there will be an economic aspect, the

    22 economic development part, then the administrative

    23 territorial position of the Vitez Municipality; then

    24 the elections of 1990, so all this is contained in the

    25 thesis. Then there will be combat operations in the

  58. 1 area from 16th April 1993 to 25th February 1994, and

    2 also it was indicated that the demographic changes

    3 would be covered as a result of the war efforts and the

    4 ethnic cleansing.

    5 Q. What I am interested in is that in your

    6 thesis, was the agreement also made that the causes,

    7 the root causes, of the population movements will also

    8 be treated; is that what is written there?

    9 A. No, but only the demographic changes, but if

    10 you do not go into the causes scientifically, it is not

    11 a valid thesis, so you have to go to the causes of

    12 these movements.

    13 Q. Very well. Let us go to the causes of these

    14 demographic changes. What scientific method did you

    15 use to determine the causes of demographic changes in

    16 the Vitez Municipality?

    17 A. This probably can be viewed from two

    18 standpoints, purely theoretical, looking at it from the

    19 political point of view, reflecting global political

    20 interests and more locally, or what changes followed

    21 these global political motives, so the changes on the

    22 ground. These two aspects have to be combined and the

    23 causes cannot be looked for on a purely local level, so

    24 you have to look at the general or global political

    25 changes that were taking place in Bosnia in those days.

  59. 1 Q. Okay, from the global and local points of

    2 view. How did you proceed? What did you look for when

    3 you were looking for causes of the population

    4 movements? What specifically did you do?

    5 A. When speaking of the causes, we know what

    6 happened on the ground, and when now you try to find a

    7 theoretical foundation for it, when you try to explain

    8 why this happened, you have to start from a wider point

    9 of view, both in terms of the time period and the

    10 geography. You have to see where the policy of the HVO

    11 was created, who was involved and what was the final

    12 goal.

    13 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, in your response, you said, "we

    14 know what happened". As a scholar, for the purposes of

    15 your work, did you go to research what happened or you

    16 used your previous knowledge as the President of the

    17 SDA in Vitez?

    18 A. No, I worked on the ground and I used

    19 documents to support my thesis of what happened.

    20 Q. This is precisely my question. What was it

    21 that you were looking for, what documents were you

    22 looking at and how did your research on the ground

    23 look?

    24 A. As concerning documents, I used the documents

    25 by the Civilian Defence Headquarters in Vitez. Then

  60. 1 I used Red Cross Vitez documents, and Merhamet

    2 documents, and the local commune services of the Vitez

    3 Municipality documents and what was most important for

    4 me, it was the interviews with persons who were

    5 expelled and people who went in the field, so that was

    6 the research in the field. So the research in the

    7 field and the interviews helped me to confirm the data

    8 from the documents which I received from institutions

    9 like the census of the Bosnia area which was conducted

    10 by the Civilian Defence Headquarters in Vitez.

    11 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, now we are talking about your

    12 research of the causes of the population movements. In

    13 the documents of the Civilian Defence Headquarters in

    14 Vitez, and I presume that this is the headquarters of

    15 the Bosniak side, as well as the Merhamet documents,

    16 the Red Cross documents and others, are there

    17 statistical data there or are there causes also

    18 addressed there?

    19 A. Just the data, and I did that to compare it

    20 to see what were the causes.

    21 Q. Very well. Let us then focus on the

    22 interviews. What method of finding the right sample

    23 did you use? In other words, how did you go about

    24 selecting the persons that you interviewed? Was it

    25 random sample or not?

  61. 1 A. With interviews, I used the principle that

    2 from each area from where people were expelled, that

    3 would be the Ahmici, Jardol, which includes Grbavica,

    4 Veceriska, Gacice and Vitez 1 local communes, so I knew

    5 the areas from which the people were expelled, so

    6 I used random samples and I interviewed a certain

    7 number of people there and then I summed up the results

    8 and I arrived at the ways and means by which these

    9 people were forced out.

    10 Q. How many people did you interview from these

    11 five local communes?

    12 A. I conducted about 40 to 50 interviews.

    13 Q. Was it evenly spread out over the communes?

    14 A. Yes, approximately.

    15 Q. How many men, how many women?

    16 A. I paid attention that the age groups be

    17 represented, so I took care to interview some younger

    18 people, older people and some women, so I did take that

    19 into account.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: When you speak to one another,

    21 it is best to turn off your microphones.

    22 MR. NOBILO: When analysing these statements,

    23 did you ask your investigators if you used them or did

    24 you set out in advance that you would take this many

    25 women or men or was it random?

  62. 1 A. It is not random. I know what the interviews

    2 are, I know what the survey is, I know what the

    3 historical methods are of using the scientific methods,

    4 I had to adjust, so it is not my own personal wish

    5 which led me to this result.

    6 Q. In these interviews, Mr. Kajmovic, did you

    7 come across for instance the cases for instance from

    8 Gacice, a population left under the protection of the

    9 international forces?

    10 A. Yes, I have certain data reflecting that for

    11 Gacice.

    12 Q. Do you know and did you come across this in

    13 the interviews, that after two days of fighting in

    14 Donje Veceriska, the military left, together with the

    15 population, in an organised manner?

    16 A. This is a fact that a few people who had some

    17 weapons there pulled back together with the population,

    18 but, militarily speaking, this was not any significant

    19 organised military force.

    20 Q. Next question. Do you know that the civilian

    21 population of Donje Veceriska withdrew together with

    22 those few people with weapons?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Before the HVO came to where they were?

    25 A. No. The HVO attacked Donje Veceriska, and

  63. 1 after this attack, the population withdrew.

    2 Q. Together with those few people under arms?

    3 A. Yes, together with those few people who had

    4 some arms; that is the information I obtained.

    5 Q. Do you know that UNPROFOR participated in

    6 this operation, in moving out the population from Donje

    7 Veceriska?

    8 A. I am not familiar with those details.

    9 Q. Regarding Grbavica, Jardol, the local

    10 commune, do you know that again the inhabitants left

    11 Grbavica under protection and in an organised fashion?

    12 A. That is out of the question. The inhabitants

    13 of Grbavica at the beginning of September, I think it

    14 was 4th or 5th September, after the line was broken

    15 through, the front-line, the population pulled out, at

    16 least the few that were there while the lines were

    17 intact.

    18 Q. So when the front-line was broken through, the

    19 Bosnian army was broken through, a part of the

    20 population pulled out?

    21 A. Yes, a part of the population pulled out.

    22 Q. In your view, regarding Grbavica for example,

    23 did the population of Grbavica withdraw because of

    24 combat operation, because the army belonging to that

    25 population was losing its positions on the front, or

  64. 1 because flats were broken into and the people were

    2 exposed to force and violence? What is the reason for

    3 the withdrawal of the population of Grbavica?

    4 A. The case of Grbavica is to some extent rather

    5 specific. A part of the population in that locality,

    6 due to combat operations, was withdrawn, but a part

    7 remained, and after the line fell, a smaller section

    8 withdrew, but for instance 1,500 inhabitants of the

    9 local commune Vitez 1, or Vitez 2, that is the town of

    10 Vitez proper, were entirely surrounded and they had to

    11 leave the town under pressure through various forms of

    12 coercion.

    13 The same happened to the inhabitants of

    14 Veceriska, also Gacice, also the inhabitants of the

    15 local commune of Ahmici. Therefore we have a slightly

    16 different situation in this case, which could perhaps

    17 compare with a part of Bobasi, the local commune of

    18 Kruscica inhabited by Croats, where the population also

    19 had to withdraw because the front-line changed, but

    20 viewed globally, these ethnic displacements were large,

    21 and these were peripheral cases, because on the whole,

    22 this was systematic ethnic cleansing. There are always

    23 certain exceptions to the rule and there is no doubt

    24 about it.

    25 Q. Regarding what happened in Grbavica,

  65. 1 according to your research, in Grbavica, Donje

    2 Veceriska and Gacice, is it similar or different to

    3 what happened in Vitez 1 and 2?

    4 A. There are certain differences. To be

    5 specific, in Donje Veceriska, the inhabitants after a

    6 night and a day pulled out facing the attack of the

    7 HVO, whereas in Vitez, the town itself, which was under

    8 HVO control, there were no combat operations. The

    9 1,500 Bosniaks in the city centre were actually

    10 contained within that centre and there was nowhere they

    11 could go, and then pressure was brought to bear on them

    12 and they were expelled, whereas in the case of

    13 Veceriska, the HVO gave them some space, a way out, so

    14 to speak, that they could go through to reach the

    15 line behind which the BiH army had control. Of course,

    16 a certain number of civilians were killed in the

    17 process.

    18 Q. How many?

    19 A. I do not have the exact figure, but I think

    20 up to about ten women and men were killed.

    21 Q. So have I understood you well: when you say

    22 that the situation in the town of Vitez was one and the

    23 situation in the villages was a different one?

    24 A. In principle, there is no difference. The

    25 Bosniak population of Veceriska would never have left

  66. 1 that area if it had not been for the HVO attacks on

    2 that local commune. As regards the town of Vitez

    3 itself, 1,500 Bosniaks of Vitez would never have left

    4 that part of town, even though the HVO did not attack

    5 it, because it already had it under its control before

    6 then, the people would not have left. I am one of the

    7 inhabitants of the town of Vitez, my house that I built

    8 for 16 years, it is across the road from the secondary

    9 school, and many other people like me who live there

    10 abandoned it and were expelled from that area.

    11 Therefore from the point of view of the

    12 principle, the principle is force. They left this area

    13 under pressure of force, under coercion. That is the

    14 basic principle. Whether it was expressed in this or

    15 that way with certain shades of differences, certain

    16 nuances, the principle remains the same. Behind the

    17 displacement of the population, there was force and

    18 nothing else, when we are talking about the area under

    19 HVO control.

    20 Q. Are war operations a force? Is that

    21 coercion?

    22 A. Of course a war is coercion. The HVO attack

    23 is a force. If somebody is attacking you with arms,

    24 you have to flee your home.

    25 Q. In your research, did you study the documents

  67. 1 of the International Red Cross or the Vitez

    2 Municipality, and I mean the part of the municipality

    3 under control of the Croats, and from these documents,

    4 it would follow that under the control of the

    5 International Red Cross, all the people who left Vitez

    6 made a statement saying that they were doing so

    7 voluntarily and that they had chosen the place they

    8 were going to themselves. Have you seen those

    9 documents?

    10 A. I have not seen the Red Cross documents, but

    11 I have seen some UNHCR documents, containing certain

    12 statistical reports on the number of inhabitants, the

    13 number of exiles and the number who lived there and

    14 these are quite inaccurate, because those data were

    15 given to them by both the Croatian and the Bosniak

    16 sides, and they exaggerated them by about 50 per cent,

    17 so as to get a little more humanitarian aid. That is

    18 why the UNHCR data are quite incorrect.

    19 As for the statements given by the displaced

    20 persons to the Red Cross, I have not had any insight

    21 into them, but through my interviews, I learnt some

    22 things. The HVO is in the town centre where the

    23 municipal library is and an office was organised there,

    24 to which the Bosniaks would come and they had to sign

    25 documents there saying that they were moving out

  68. 1 voluntarily and that they -- they even had to exchange

    2 apartments. Of course, under wartime conditions that

    3 were very risky, people sought to get out at all cost,

    4 from that environment. A better description would be

    5 to say to escape from hell.

    6 When they had to go to the Zenica

    7 Municipality, to move into a Croatian flat, there was

    8 not recognised, of course, that people were manipulated

    9 by the HVO and that was how this area was ethnically

    10 cleansed. Therefore I am quite familiar with this and

    11 I think that the statements collected by the HVO and

    12 that may have been given to the Red Cross under those

    13 circumstances are irrelevant, because the statements

    14 would surely be quite different if they were not

    15 exposed to the same kind of risk.

    16 Q. Are you aware of the documents made under the

    17 supervision of the Red Cross in Vitez, when people were

    18 leaving the school at Dubravica, the cinema hall

    19 et cetera; have you seen those documents?

    20 A. I have not seen those documents, but I know

    21 that a certain number of people were detained in the

    22 Workers' University, which was a camp; also another

    23 group of people opposite that camp across the way in

    24 the SDK social accounting service building, I know that

    25 when Sefer Halilovic came and signed the cease-fire,

  69. 1 when he arrived at the Workers' University and arranged

    2 with the HVO authorities that a certain number be

    3 released that at the time 12 to 15 people were taken to

    4 Busovaca, so I am aware of all these details. But what

    5 I wish to underline here is that the statements and the

    6 certificates, decisions signed in the library in Vitez

    7 under the HVO auspices are irrelevant, and that they

    8 give you quite a different picture from what those same

    9 people would tell you now.

    10 Their main motive, their main wish is to get

    11 out and save their lives, because a certain number of

    12 people were killed there, a certain number of Bosniaks

    13 were killed within those areas, that is the areas under

    14 HVO control before 16th April. So no BiH army

    15 representatives were there at the time, so they sought

    16 to get out in whatever way they could.

    17 Q. So will you agree with me that it follows

    18 from everything that you have said that your only

    19 source of information regarding the causes of departure

    20 from the Municipality of Vitez were interviews, and

    21 that you did not have insight into all the documents of

    22 the Red Cross and the authorities in Vitez?

    23 A. Red Cross data mainly say whether somebody

    24 was detained, that he was a prisoner, that after that,

    25 he received a booklet which proves that he was a

  70. 1 detainee, and in this decision or this booklet, you

    2 cannot find anything except what I have just said.

    3 Q. So you did not see the document in which a

    4 citizen gives a statement where he wishes to go and

    5 that he is going voluntarily?

    6 A. I have not seen those documents, but I know

    7 from my method of interviews that people were asked,

    8 "Do you want to go to Travnik or do you want to go to

    9 Zenica?" But one could ask a different question, why

    10 was such a question put to those people? Who are the

    11 people who are ready to leave their homes and then

    12 somebody would ask them, "Where is it you want to go?"

    13 Q. You have just explained your method regarding

    14 the Bosniaks. Will you please tell me, did you respect

    15 the basic principles of science -- were the same

    16 principles applied when interviewing Croats?

    17 A. No. In view of the fact that the political

    18 situation over there is what it is, it is theoretically

    19 unfeasible for me to go there and carry out research,

    20 even to have this method of interviews, so I point out

    21 in my thesis that this part of the data were obtained

    22 by estimates, using auxiliary data, so that when

    23 talking about the paper as a whole, then these

    24 demographic changes are quite precise with respect to

    25 one segment, and when it comes to the Croatian segment,

  71. 1 there may be certain deviations, as I said, of 5 to

    2 6 per cent. They cannot be more than that, so that

    3 these data may also be accepted as being correct.

    4 Q. You have not understood me. My question was,

    5 what was your method for establishing the reasons for

    6 the departure of Croats? Did you use the same methods

    7 among Croats and Serbs to establish why those people

    8 left their homes?

    9 A. It is not possible for me to do any kind of

    10 research in the area under HVO control, because the

    11 Bosniaks have been expelled from those parts.

    12 Q. I apologise, but please listen to me. My

    13 question is: did you interview the Croats who fled from

    14 territories under control of the BiH army? Did you

    15 interview them to see why they had fled their homes?

    16 A. Since this applies to some 900 Croats, since

    17 I am aware of the case of Croats in Stari Vitez, I did

    18 not conduct interviews, but I pointed out those few

    19 cases. There are about 400 Croats who were living in

    20 the local commune of Poculica who, on 16th April, in

    21 the morning, the first day when the HVO did not manage

    22 to gain control of that particular local commune, they

    23 left that area together with HVO members, so this was

    24 almost half of the Croats that were moved, and the

    25 other half of Croats who were displaced are the Croats

  72. 1 in the local commune of Kruscica in Bobasi, who during

    2 combat operations later on, when the front-line was

    3 moved, they withdrew within the territory under HVO

    4 control. Therefore the changes that occurred among the

    5 Croats happened practically in the first couple of

    6 days, and, of course, a certain percentage of Croats

    7 withdrew that night, so logic says that they must have

    8 been informed by the HVO to cross over to territory

    9 under their control.

    10 Q. Let me put the same question differently. In

    11 your research, when establishing the causes for the

    12 fleeing of Croats from their homes in the territories

    13 under BiH army command, did you use any scientific

    14 methods or did you use your knowledge while you were

    15 President of the SDA in Vitez?

    16 A. My role has --

    17 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, let me have a chance

    18 to object. I object, Mr. President. The question has

    19 been asked and answered about three or four times.

    20 Mr. Kajmovic has explained why he could not do research

    21 and how he conducted his investigation in respect of

    22 displaced Croats.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, sustained. Change

    24 questions, please.

    25 MR. NOBILO: You mentioned the case of Croats

  73. 1 moving when the front-line changed. Is that according

    2 to ethnic cleansing, or is it movement due to combat

    3 operations? How would you define it?

    4 A. In the specific case of Bobasi, then one

    5 could apply the reasoning that it was due to a change

    6 in the front-line in the case of Croats, and the same

    7 applies to Grbavica where the Bosniaks were displaced

    8 because of a change in the front-line.

    9 Q. Tell me, with respect to the movement of

    10 Croats from the territory under BiH army control, was

    11 that influenced by the fact that in Krizancevo Selo,

    12 the BiH army killed 74 civilians, in Buhine Kuce 30, in

    13 Sadovaca another 30. Were those facts established

    14 according to you and did this influence the

    15 displacement of Croats from the territory under BiH army

    16 control?

    17 A. A part of the analysis has been left out. In

    18 that part of the analysis, reference is made to the

    19 consequences of the war or rather the HVO aggression

    20 against the Bosniaks of Vitez. I have only analysed

    21 briefly a table showing that 4,000 and something

    22 Bosniaks were expelled,, that some went to Zenica, some

    23 to Travnik and some went abroad. We left out the part

    24 dealing with the 3,514 Bosniaks killed. We left that

    25 part out. I investigated that matter and, regarding

  74. 1 the number of Croats killed, of course, I only have

    2 certain estimates for that.

    3 My estimates show that the number is not

    4 small, that a large number of people were killed, but

    5 this case that Mr. Nobilo is mentioning, Bobasi,

    6 Krizancevo Selo, those are classical combat operations

    7 between the army and the HVO conducted during the war,

    8 and there were certain minor changes in the front-line

    9 to one side or the other, so this was a traditional

    10 clash between two armies. So one cannot talk about the

    11 suffering of civilians in this case, as for instance

    12 when the army captured a certain territory and

    13 conducted a massacre. That is not true, Krizancevo

    14 Selo remained under HVO control, and a part of Buhine

    15 Kuce also remained under HVO control.

    16 Q. Have I understood you well? Does it follow

    17 from what you have said that these 74 people,

    18 inhabitants of Krizancevo Selo and Buhine Kuce, the 30,

    19 that they were not killed outside combat?

    20 A. No, those were mostly HVO soldiers, and

    21 I think that you are familiar with the report of

    22 UNPROFOR. UNPROFOR was there, who filmed it. These

    23 are well known facts, established facts, that they were

    24 HVO soldiers. Maybe in some cases a couple of

    25 civilians, I am not sure, I do not know.

  75. 1 Q. Did you establish during your research what

    2 percentage of the territory since the Washington treaty

    3 is controlled by the BiH army and which percentage of

    4 the Vitez Municipality by the HVO?

    5 A. Yes, HVO controls 25 per cent and the BiH army

    6 75 per cent, but half of the Vitez Municipality of

    7 1,599 square kilometres is not inhabited. These are

    8 woods and hills. The parts under HVO control are all

    9 the communications, the town centres, with the

    10 exception of 5.3 square kilometres within Vitez

    11 itself. All the work enterprises, the educational

    12 institutions et cetera are within the control of the

    13 HVO.

    14 Q. Would you agree with me if I were to say that

    15 the HVO controlled the settlements along communication

    16 lines and the vital economic establishments?

    17 A. Are you referring to April 16th.

    18 Q. No, during the Muslim/Croat war. Would you

    19 agree with that definition?

    20 A. Yes, on 25th February 1994, the Washington

    21 treaty came into force and the armies were separated

    22 and it was then that they gained control of

    23 25 per cent, with the coming into force of the truce.

    24 Q. You may not have understood me. Those

    25 25 per cent under HVO control, after the signing of the

  76. 1 truce; can it be defined as covering settlements along

    2 major communications and the key economic facilities?

    3 A. Yes, more or less.

    4 Q. During your research, did you establish how

    5 many Muslim refugees came to the Vitez Municipality

    6 from eastern Bosnia and how many from Jajce before the

    7 Croatian-Muslim conflict?

    8 A. This is a question I have studied and, since

    9 we left out that part of the statistics, the total

    10 number of Bosniak refugees at the end of 1995 within

    11 Vitez under BiH army control amounts to 331, I think.

    12 I should have to look it up. So it is a very small

    13 number of refugees. There were not many Bosniak

    14 refugees from other areas within the territory of Vitez

    15 Municipality.

    16 Q. You said -- you gave us the figure for 1995,

    17 but do you have the figure for 1993? There were

    18 refugees coming in in 1992. I am asking you, before

    19 the Muslim-Croat war, how many refugees were there in

    20 Vitez Municipality from Jajce and eastern Bosnia?

    21 A. This is a very interesting question from a

    22 slightly different angle. I have not established the

    23 exact number, though I did study it from a different

    24 standpoint. A large number of the refugees came from

    25 western parts of Bosnia, they reached Travnik and they

  77. 1 went on to look for shelter. Throughout that time, the

    2 HVO government of Vitez did its best to prevent a large

    3 number of Bosniaks from staying in Vitez Municipality.

    4 At the time, I was not aware of the reasons, though

    5 they frequently mentioned the need not to upset the

    6 ethnic mix. Therefore at the beginning of 1993, Vitez

    7 Municipality, as compared to Zenica or Travnik, there

    8 was a very small percentage of Bosniak refugees.

    9 Anyway, you see how many there were at the end of the

    10 war, 300 and something.

    11 Q. Have I understood you well; you are not aware

    12 of the number of refugees in 1993?

    13 A. I do not know, but if there were many of

    14 them, they would have still been there at the end of

    15 1995. There would have been more than 300 of them.

    16 Q. In the course of your research, did you

    17 analyse the situation in the surrounding

    18 municipalities, and did those events affect the

    19 demographic situation in Vitez? Do you know how many

    20 Croats came from Zenica, Travnik, Novi Travnik and

    21 Busovaca to the Vitez Municipality?

    22 A. This is a case study, so that you are dealing

    23 with a legal problem which has to be studied.

    24 Therefore no further elaborations were made regarding

    25 other municipalities, but the statistical data shows

  78. 1 that the number of Croats in Vitez Municipality

    2 increased by about 2,500 at the end of 1995, as

    3 compared to the 1991 census, so those Croats must have

    4 come from somewhere, and mostly they came from Travnik

    5 and a certain number, I do not know the exact number,

    6 from Zenica. Whether there were a few coming from

    7 Vares or some other places like Fojnica, but it is a

    8 fact that there were 2,500 of them more than before.

    9 Q. Do you not think it was important to

    10 investigate this? Let me ask you a question. Do you

    11 know how many autochthonous Croats left Vitez

    12 Municipality in spite of HVO control? Do you have

    13 those figures?

    14 A. The number could only be quite negligible for

    15 this study, because at the end of 1992, and in the

    16 course of 1992 even, there were some small -- a small

    17 degree of mobility because in that situation of

    18 uncertainty, both Bosniaks and Croats were leaving,

    19 going to Croatia, but many of them came back, so that

    20 this percentage, how many there were, would not

    21 substantively change the demographic situation in Vitez

    22 Municipality.

    23 Q. But did you use any precise methods to

    24 establish how many Croats had left Vitez?

    25 A. When you are doing demographic changes, you

  79. 1 have to bear in mind that these are living people. You

    2 may establish the population structure one day and

    3 already the next day it will be somewhat changed, so it

    4 is not possible to approach the problem in that way.

    5 You have the birth rate, the death rate, the natural

    6 increment, the moving out of people for reasons of

    7 employment, and for other reasons, for educational

    8 purposes et cetera. So it is not possible to establish

    9 each individual case.

    10 Q. Would you agree with me, if I adduce from

    11 what you have said that you needed to establish how

    12 many members of a particular ethnic group moved, but

    13 you did not establish how many Croats came from Zenica,

    14 how many Croats who had lived in Vitez had left?

    15 A. The fact that is relevant is the number of

    16 Croats in Vitez Municipality today as compared to the

    17 1991 census.

    18 Q. So you did not come across the figure that

    19 500 military conscripts of the HVO had left Vitez?

    20 These are young people.

    21 A. Yes, I do not know whether you investigated

    22 how many fighters were killed during the combat

    23 operations and who is responsible for it.

    24 Q. 2,100 in the Municipality of Vitez, 700, in

    25 the whole enclave, 2,100 Croats were killed.

  80. 1 A. Of course, in my paper I mention the figure

    2 of 700.

    3 Q. Do you know the 20,000 Croats from Travnik

    4 before the April conflict came to the Vitez

    5 Municipality; they were expelled from Travnik?

    6 A. As far as I am aware, the largest number of

    7 Croats from Travnik, though I did not study this very

    8 seriously, went across the lines held by the Chetniks,

    9 across Mount Vlasik, and a part of the Croats came to

    10 Vitez Municipality, that is in the area where there

    11 were combat operations.

    12 Q. Do you know that 5,000 Croats from Zenica

    13 abandoned Zenica and came to Vitez?

    14 A. I am not aware of these figures, so I would

    15 not like to answer questions that I have not studied in

    16 my paper and for which I do not have reliable data.

    17 Q. I do not know what you have studied and that

    18 is why I am asking you. Do you know that all the

    19 Croats of Fojnica left?

    20 A. I know -- I have said that I studied, that

    21 I did a case study devoted to Vitez Municipality and my

    22 theme does not involve studying the surroundings.

    23 Q. But I am talking about the people of Fojnica

    24 who came to Vitez Municipality?

    25 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, let me object

  81. 1 because the questions and answers are merging into

    2 one. I think there should be some pause to allow the

    3 translation from Mr. Nobilo and some time for

    4 Mr. Kajmovic to answer and let his answer be translated

    5 before the next question is asked.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: I think this is an objection to

    7 which everybody would agree.

    8 MR. NOBILO: I will attempt -- I just got

    9 carried away a little bit. Sorry.

    10 Mr. Kajmovic, you are a scholar, so let me

    11 just try to confirm something with you. What does it

    12 seem to you when you use Bosnian Croat and Bosnian

    13 Serb? Is that a scientific term or is this a political

    14 term? Is this a new nation?

    15 A. The correct denomination for Croats would be

    16 the Bosnian Croat, because it is the Croats who live in

    17 Bosnia, in the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina and not in

    18 the state of Croatia.

    19 Q. Is that a scientific name of a nation?

    20 A. The correct name is Croats, only Croats, but

    21 I stress the prefix Bosnian, so that we would

    22 distinguish between the Croats who live in Croatia and

    23 those who live in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so we know about

    24 which Croats we were talking.

    25 Q. Did any Croats from Croatia move to Bosnia?

  82. 1 A. No, not that I know of.

    2 Q. Do you use the term Serbian Bosniaks for

    3 people from Sandzak?

    4 A. I was not dealing in that issue at all.

    5 Q. But have you ever heard it, Serbian Bosniak?

    6 A. Not in real life.

    7 Q. Would you not agree that this is a little bit

    8 ridiculous?

    9 A. No, why?

    10 Q. Very well. We go back to 1995, when you were

    11 trying to determine how many people of which ethnic

    12 group lived, resided in which area of the

    13 Municipality. Let us take the Bosniaks for instance.

    14 Was this a scientific method?

    15 A. Yes, the Civilian Defence Headquarters did

    16 hire people to canvass the neighbourhoods and so they

    17 did it for their own purposes.

    18 Q. What method did you use when determining the

    19 number of Bosniaks in the territory under the HVO

    20 control?

    21 A. Here I used the method of interviews, so the

    22 interviews with people who knew their neighbours in

    23 Rijeka, because we took Rijeka, that is part of the

    24 Vranska local commune, part of it is in Rijeka, part of

    25 it is in Vitez too, so I knew Bosniaks there who knew

  83. 1 their neighbours very well and so I interviewed people

    2 from the Vitez too, the urban part of the area, who had

    3 left there but knew exactly who stayed behind. So that

    4 we had those two cases, the 80 Bosniaks in the urban

    5 part of Vitez, and part in Rijeka, so that was a small

    6 area which was specifically researched.

    7 Q. Was this a scientific method?

    8 A. No, this is accurate, it is 80 people who

    9 were registered there.

    10 Q. Did you look at other settlements, whether

    11 there were Bosniaks there?

    12 A. I did not. By talking to people who were

    13 going to these areas, who went to check on their own

    14 houses, who went to the cemeteries, and so we

    15 identified exactly how many Bosniaks were there.

    16 Q. How scientifically reliable is this that you

    17 have just described?

    18 A. The most precise would be if the census

    19 bureau of Bosnia would be able to go into the field and

    20 identify these 80 persons. It is not practicable right

    21 now, but these data are quite relevant.

    22 Q. In your examination-in-chief, you explained

    23 that people who went to the cemeteries looked at how

    24 many houses were still standing and that is how you

    25 proceeded. What was the UNPROFOR's role in this?

  84. 1 A. In the first period after the cessation of

    2 hostilities, there was an agreement with UNPROFOR to

    3 provide escort and safety and later this was done

    4 between the HVO police and the Army of BiH and later

    5 people had more freedom of movement in this area.

    6 Q. Am I right in saying that in most cases,

    7 people were going in buses in an organised way to the

    8 cemeteries?

    9 A. Yes, for the most part, but there were some

    10 individual cases as well, people who went there by

    11 themselves.

    12 Q. Did I understand correctly that when these

    13 people went on buses, they were counting Croatian

    14 houses?

    15 A. When they first went there, they were not in

    16 a position to. Later, yes, but they were not counting

    17 Croatian houses, they were counting their own houses,

    18 how many were destroyed et cetera and their neighbours;

    19 they were not interested in the Croatian houses.

    20 Q. But you said Croatian house times 3.7?

    21 A. No, Bosniak houses. We know that about --

    22 there were about 100, 40 were destroyed, 60 were moved

    23 in by other people, so I took the average number of

    24 family members for 89/90/91. The average number of

    25 members of family in the Vitez Municipality per family

  85. 1 was 3.75, so if 60 houses were vacated and other people

    2 moved in, I would take that number 60 and multiply it

    3 by 3.75 and this is how I would come to the number of

    4 the Croats who have now moved and were residing in

    5 Donje Veceriska. I may be off by a certain percentage

    6 point, but not much.

    7 Q. One more question. What scientific method

    8 did you use to determine why the Serbs left? How did

    9 you determine that?

    10 A. The Serbs are a separate case. Before the

    11 conflict, for the most part, most of them left

    12 voluntarily. There were 377 in the Vitez area, so a

    13 relatively small number in the municipality. In

    14 Tolovici, they had about 150 inhabitants. It was half

    15 Bosniak, half Serbian settlement. The rest of the

    16 Serbs were distributed in the urban area and some in

    17 Kruscica and some in Rijeka. I know this because

    18 I communicated with the Serbs at that time, and this is

    19 what they were saying, that Radovan Karadzic requested

    20 they leave this area, and they found buses and in an

    21 organised way they moved out before the conflict, for

    22 the most part. A small percentage stayed.

    23 Q. Am I correct in saying here that this fact

    24 was determined by your previous knowledge and not based

    25 on your scientific research?

  86. 1 A. The knowledge that you possess, you cannot

    2 absolutely disregard and again come to it later. These

    3 are the facts that will be confirmed by all your

    4 collaborators, that is in respect of the Serbs. So all

    5 Croats will confirm this, it is not just the Bosniaks.

    6 Q. But would it not have been fair to have asked

    7 the Serbs about this?

    8 A. There is reasoning for that too, but then

    9 maybe you should ask Karadzic who ordered this.

    10 Q. In one of the tables, and I am talking to 5

    11 to 6 percentage point deviation, could that be up and

    12 down?

    13 A. I say 5 to 6. I think it could go down by

    14 that amount, but maybe a little bit upward as well, but

    15 for the most part, it would be minus, that is down.

    16 Q. In one of the tables, you showed the

    17 population chart in the areas under the HVO control in

    18 1995, and you compared it to 1991. Certain local

    19 communes were split, and divided in certain ways.

    20 I would like to know whether you had data from 1991,

    21 how many Croats and how many Bosniaks lived in this

    22 segment of the area that is now under different

    23 controls?

    24 A. Yes, there was an Official Gazette, a local

    25 municipal Official Gazette. There are 34 inhabited

  87. 1 places and in 1991, there was a census in these

    2 inhabited places. It was accurately determined how

    3 many inhabited places belonged in certain local

    4 communes, so in Lupac, for instance, you had

    5 98 per cent of Bosniaks living. Let us take Jardol.

    6 Grbavica is part of that local commune, with some 700

    7 Bosniaks, and I would have to look how many Croats

    8 there are there, so there are accurate data, so there

    9 is nothing controvertible there. We know exactly how

    10 many inhabitants of each ethnic group there is in which

    11 local commune, so in Jardol, in Grbavica et cetera.

    12 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you, as a scholar, as

    13 a scientist, the data that you put forward here which

    14 I cannot confirm right now that the Croats were in the

    15 majority of 93.8 per cent in the areas controlled by

    16 the HVO, and the Bosniaks 95.8, almost 96 per cent in

    17 the majority in the areas under BH control, so was

    18 it -- can you tell me, is the propaganda stronger or

    19 the force?

    20 A. Do not tie it into either, please. There are

    21 accurate data here. In the area controlled by the

    22 BiH army, you can take the statistical data and

    23 compare. In Lupac, 400 people, only Bosniaks -- for

    24 instance Sadovaca, exclusively Bosniaks, that is the

    25 area controlled by the BiH army. Take the local commune

  88. 1 of Vrhovine, exclusively Bosniak. Preocica, I think

    2 there were only 11 Croats there and maybe about the

    3 same number of Serbs. The local commune of Prnjavor,

    4 exclusively -- Vrhovine, exclusively Bosniaks. This

    5 can be gleaned through other tables as well, so there

    6 was -- the areas under the BiH army control were much

    7 less mixed, but the ones that are now under HVO control

    8 was much more mixed. It was flat, it was industrially

    9 more developed et cetera.

    10 Q. Okay. Do you agree that the territory under

    11 the BiH army control was ethnically cleansed to a higher

    12 degree by three percentage points than the one under

    13 HVO control?

    14 A. Yes, but it does not reflect the fact that

    15 maybe there was more of an ethnic cleansing there. It

    16 does not. 1,200 people were moved from that area and

    17 from your area 6,000 people were moved, so I do not

    18 know if that data shows you -- judge for yourself.

    19 What is more, 6,500 versus 1,200?

    20 Q. Those are absolute numbers.

    21 A. Had it been for the same methods used,

    22 unfortunately they were not the same methods used.

    23 Q. Okay, what I am interested in now is whether

    24 you know what methods were used during the ethnic

    25 cleansing of Bosniaks, as you call them; that is, did

  89. 1 you statistically research how many Bosniaks left for

    2 criminal activities, how many exchanged, how many due

    3 to direct forcing out of houses? Did you statistically

    4 research that?

    5 A. Yes, I did, but for God's sake, what kind of

    6 crime can you talk about when they could not -- they

    7 did not dare open up the doors? If they are in the

    8 basement in the Workers' University and if the HVO is

    9 taking them out to dig trenches and they do not know if

    10 they are coming back --

    11 Q. I am sorry, you did not understand me.

    12 A. Yes, I did understand you.

    13 Q. I am sorry, what I meant was not that they

    14 engaged in the acts of crime; whether because their

    15 houses were looted and there was force used against

    16 them.

    17 A. That is absurd. If the person may only think

    18 how to stay alive, you cannot speak of pillage and rape

    19 and things like that. People are trying to stay

    20 alive. None of these people whom I interviewed could

    21 think in his dream in this way. It has nothing to do

    22 with the real situation.

    23 Q. My question was whether you tried to identify

    24 the actual acts that forced people to leave, the kinds

    25 of acts and the people who committed them?

  90. 1 A. Yes, that is as if I asked you whether you

    2 were in Hawaii on vacation. That is what you asked me,

    3 more or less. I do not understand this.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Let us try to keep things calm

    5 here, not express too many opinions, too many

    6 judgements, and be attentive to the interpreters who are

    7 also getting tired. Thank you.

    8 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. I believe we have a

    9 misunderstanding here. My question was simply whether

    10 you tried to establish in these interviews, or through

    11 any statistical method, how many people fled because of

    12 certain acts of violence and whether these acts of

    13 violence have been identified and enumerated?

    14 A. I identified the acts of violence perpetrated

    15 by the HVO against them. I know the forms in which

    16 they were forced to leave.

    17 Q. This is the meaning of my question. How many

    18 people fled because the military attacked? How many

    19 people fled because some member of the HVO or some

    20 groups of the HVO broke into the house, pillaged and

    21 kicked them out? In that sense, do you have the data?

    22 A. I have all the data.

    23 Q. Please go ahead and present it to us.

    24 A. About 1,500 people from the urban area were

    25 expelled by the HVO, by different forms of pressure.

  91. 1 Expulsion from the apartments, threats, things like

    2 that. From Ahmici, 508 people. On the morning of

    3 16th April, 117 people were killed in Ahmici and

    4 25th May local commune. Some of them were detained in

    5 the primary school in Dubravica and some managed to

    6 flee to so-called Upper Ahmici and from there to cross

    7 over to Vrhovine, which was under BiH army control. The

    8 local commune of Gacice, one part of civilians on

    9 20th April 1993 managed to flee across Zabrde to

    10 Novi Travnik and the rest of the population was

    11 collected by the HVO and brought in front of the

    12 department store in Vitez and they told them, "Let the

    13 BiH army shoot at you now", and then they were taken in

    14 the direction of Travnik and Zenica.

    15 Q. They did not take them back to Gacice?

    16 A. They only took them back for two or three

    17 days.

    18 Q. Please proceed.

    19 A. And today, there are no Bosniaks in Gacice,

    20 there are none.

    21 Q. How many people left Gacice in this manner?

    22 A. All 320 of however many live there.

    23 Q. So some left with the military and others --

    24 A. No, only 30 or 40 managed to flee across the

    25 woods. No military there.

  92. 1 Q. Very well, proceed please.

    2 A. I already explained Ahmici and 25th May was

    3 the adjoining local commune next to Ahmici. 29 people

    4 were killed there on the morning during the attack of

    5 the HVO. The rest of the population was either in the

    6 camp in Dubravica or later released, together with the

    7 people who fled through Gornji Ahmici to Vrhovine. The

    8 Dubravica local commune, that is the lower part of it

    9 which is near the railroad station, from that local

    10 commune the population was collected and through the

    11 assistance of UNPROFOR was evacuated.

    12 In Stari Vitez local commune, the people were

    13 able to defend themselves, about 1,100 of them and they

    14 were able to stay there. From the part of Rijeka which

    15 is also part of the Vranska local commune, another

    16 urban area of the town, they were successively driven

    17 out and very few are left now. Then there is the

    18 Veceriska local commune; they were expelled during the

    19 attack of the HVO on 16th April, and then there is

    20 Grbavica, which after it fell was cleansed later. So

    21 these are the 4,611 Bosniaks.

    22 Q. Very well. One more question. In your

    23 research, have you come across a document or any

    24 witness who would state or show that General Blaskic

    25 ordered the expulsion of certain people, and I here

  93. 1 mean Muslims.

    2 A. No, I had no insight into such documents

    3 which would expressly confirm that this was an order by

    4 Mr. Blaskic. I have no such proof.

    5 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Kajmovic, we are done.

    6 Mr. President, this completes our cross-examination.

    7 Mr. Kajmovic, good luck with your thesis.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?

    9 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions,

    10 Mr. President.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad?

    12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Kajmovic, I would appreciate

    14 your giving us your unequivocal assessment of some of

    15 the issues raised here. You spoke of ethnic cleansing

    16 and you mentioned the means which were used in ethnic

    17 cleansing. You spoke of breaking into houses as a

    18 means of pressure to kick people out, of abuses,

    19 different abuse of people, of crossing a frontier under

    20 army control, and then you mentioned genocide in

    21 Ahmici. Do you consider that genocide was used as one

    22 of the means of ethnic cleansing in Vitez?

    23 A. In my thesis, I touch on the issue of the

    24 genocide in Ahmici. I did research this issue and

    25 I identified the exact number of victims there, and

  94. 1 I tried to ascertain the reasons why this was done and

    2 why in Ahmici, and apart from the general motives,

    3 there were some local or practical reasons as well.

    4 One of the practical reasons for this genocide was that

    5 this local commune, where there were 508 Bosniaks, was

    6 on the road Vitez-Busovaca. It was a strategically

    7 important point and only at this point was there any

    8 danger that it could be cut off, and that the HVO may

    9 not be able to use it for military purposes.

    10 So this was one of the motives, to take

    11 control of this road communications, and this would be

    12 the purely military aspect of it. But there is another

    13 aspect why the genocide was committed there. One was

    14 the motivation which was revenge, and on 18th October

    15 1992, when the HVO attacked Novi Travnik, on the orders

    16 of the commander Hadzihasanovic of the III Corps, a

    17 roadblock or barricade was put up in Ahmici. It was

    18 attacked by the HVO and it was removed within about one

    19 hour of gunfire, and one young man from Ahmici died, so

    20 this barricade briefly slowed down the HVO troops'

    21 movement from Busovaca, Kiseljak and Fojnica who were

    22 going to Novi Travnik to take control of it and to link

    23 up to the forces from Gornji Vakuf. General Blaskic

    24 and some other HVO structures said publicly that they

    25 would avenge themselves on Ahmici for this barricade,

  95. 1 so that when --

    2 Q. Who said that? Who said there will be a

    3 revenge of Ahmici?

    4 A. Dario Kordic said this on television, that he

    5 would avenge himself on the population of Ahmici for

    6 the barricades that they put up on 19th October 1992.

    7 Q. Did you see that yourself? Did you see that

    8 on television yourself? General Blaskic was with him

    9 at that time?

    10 A. I cannot say whether he was there or not,

    11 I am not sure, but I am certain of the statement, that

    12 it was delivered in the form of a threat. But let me

    13 just finish my comment. So there was the aspect of

    14 revenge for that barricade which had been put up there,

    15 and another reason can be gleaned from the name of that

    16 operation, 48 Hours of Ashes. So from a military point

    17 of view, it should have been completed within 48 hours,

    18 and the effect of such a swift action psychologically

    19 speaking, if you do something, such a drastic act,

    20 people are brought in a state of shock and indeed all

    21 Bosniaks were in a state of shock when they learned of

    22 it.

    23 So it is the psychological factor, and it was

    24 to achieve a certain goal psychologically that should

    25 have helped the HVO general goals. So this is what

  96. 1 I know and as far as the causes and orders, they

    2 probably came from higher levels and probably not from

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. But this was on a local level, the

    4 motivation to commit this genocide precisely in Ahmici

    5 and for these specific reasons.

    6 Q. You mentioned that the operation was called

    7 48 Hours of Ashes, the name of the operation.

    8 A. 48 Hours of Ashes.

    9 Q. Was this the military denomination of this

    10 action, or was it just the popular word?

    11 A. According to some information that is perhaps

    12 still not sufficiently well grounded, I still do not

    13 have reliable data on the name of that operation, but

    14 according to some information that I obtained,

    15 I learned that this operation was called in that way;

    16 namely some of our officers in contact with UNPROFOR

    17 members saw in their notebook an indication of this HVO

    18 operation as 48 Hours of Ashes. Then there was also a

    19 widespread conviction among the people that that was

    20 how it was named, and there is another reason which

    21 again is not sufficiently well-founded; on the mosque

    22 of Ahmic Hazim, because he built this mosque which was

    23 destroyed, the HVO fighters wrote graffiti which said,

    24 "48 Hours of Ashes Dusko will be working as of the

    25 16th." Of course, photographers took pictures of

  97. 1 this, these graffiti and I saw in the media some other

    2 photographs as well where probably the HVO

    3 administration had had this deleted, so I do not have

    4 sufficient evidence to claim that that was indeed the

    5 name of the operation. But some knowledge that I have

    6 referred to does exist.

    7 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that there was a

    8 sudden and massive departure of Bosnian Croats on the

    9 eve of the attack, it was I think on 15th and

    10 16th April, and you indicated by that that it was a

    11 co-ordinated move and a massive move. Would you

    12 conclude from that, or did you conclude from that that

    13 this sudden move was due to instructions given for a

    14 sudden departure, or could it have been the result of

    15 being scared that the Bosnian Croats were so scared

    16 that they had to leave the area? What was your

    17 assessment? Were they under a threat by the Muslims,

    18 in other words?

    19 A. I have to correct you. I did not say that

    20 they went en masse. I am referring to the exact figure

    21 of 940-something Croats, so a small percentage of those

    22 Croats from certain areas, a smaller proportion of them

    23 left their homes that night and crossed over to areas

    24 that were under firmer control of the HVO. These were

    25 small numbers, but on the first day of the conflict, on

  98. 1 the 16th in the morning, there were larger numbers of

    2 Croats.

    3 When I say "somewhat larger", I am thinking

    4 of those 400 out of the 940 who moved from the local

    5 commune of Poculica to an area which was more firmly

    6 controlled by the HVO, because the HVO applied a simple

    7 principle: in areas which it did not control, it

    8 publicly, through the media, called on the Croats to

    9 cross over into the territory under their control, so

    10 if we can consider these 400 Croats to be an exodus en

    11 masse, they were living in Poculica and the first

    12 morning when the conflict started they withdrew to the

    13 area under HVO control, so about 840 Croats as a whole

    14 were displaced within the Municipality of Vitez.

    15 Q. So you do not think that this coincided with

    16 the attack?

    17 A. These are movements by Croats as a

    18 consequence of the HVO attack on the Bosniaks and as a

    19 consequence of the fact that the HVO did not manage to

    20 fully gain control of the whole area, so the HVO did

    21 not control the Poculica local commune and that is why

    22 the Croats moved out, so, from the Bosniak side,

    23 absolutely there was no pressure on the Bosnian Croats

    24 for them to vacate a certain territory, with, of

    25 course, exceptions -- individual cases which may always

  99. 1 occur.

    2 Q. My last question is: you mentioned, and

    3 I hope I understood you rightly, that in the urban

    4 areas of Vitez, people who could not get out were

    5 arrested and detained. First I would like to know,

    6 these people were civilians or were fighters? Then; by

    7 whom were they detained and arrested?

    8 A. In the urban part of Vitez, in the town

    9 itself, which was under HVO control -- there were two

    10 parts of Vitez, the old part and the new part of the

    11 town, the old part most often being referred to as

    12 Stari Vitez. In the new part, there were between 1,500

    13 and 1,600 Bosniaks and they could not move out anywhere

    14 from there, except through exchanges or through

    15 expulsions across the lines. Therefore this part needs

    16 to be dealt with separately. In Stari Vitez, there

    17 were about 1,100 Bosniaks and there were still some 40

    18 Croats living there and this was a single ethnic

    19 population of one ethnicity and this part was also

    20 surrounded and they too could not move for eleven and

    21 a half months that the war went on, because the HVO had

    22 them encircled, but there were combat operations there

    23 in Stari Vitez.

    24 Q. There were combat, or no combat operations?

    25 A. When talking about Stari Vitez --

  100. 1 Q. The last word you mentioned. You said there

    2 were no combat operations in Stari Vitez?

    3 A. There were.

    4 Q. So military people were fighting?

    5 A. Yes, there were. No I think we need a map.

    6 Can I use the map to explain this? The map of the

    7 separation of military forces?

    8 MR. HARMON: Mr. Dubuisson, that would be in

    9 the second package.

    10 A. Military separation so as to show --

    11 JUDGE JORDA: That is what, 192?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: No, 195, or even 196.

    13 A. Can we use this one? Can I have this one?

    14 When mentioning Stari Vitez, I am referring to this

    15 part, this area here, which is the area of about 0.3

    16 kilometres, square kilometres, 0.3 square kilometres,

    17 and there were about 1,100 inhabitants, mostly

    18 Bosniaks, living there. They too, on 16th April in the

    19 morning at 4.30, they were attacked by the HVO, but the

    20 HVO did not manage to capture it, so that this area was

    21 surrounded by HVO territory and HVO front-lines, and

    22 this area remained in a situation of combat until

    23 25th February 1994. So there were 1,100 Bosniaks who

    24 were still living there.

    25 However there are 1,600 of them down here,

  101. 1 this part of the town itself. They were not in a

    2 classical encirclement of the HVO, but were under the

    3 HVO administration. The HVO could arrest, evict and so

    4 on, and they actually did. The HVO did not imprison

    5 anyone from Stari Vitez; why? Because they could not

    6 enter it, but from this other part of the town, these

    7 were civilians, there was no army there, and people

    8 from 18 onwards were detained and taken to camps, the

    9 Workers' University, the SDK, the veterinary station,

    10 Dubravica and so on, from this other part of the town

    11 which you cannot see on the map, but it is here, the

    12 new part of the town.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: So they were civilians?

    14 A. Yes, civilians.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: I do not have any questions as

    17 questions themselves, but I have a comment. What

    18 disturbs me insofar as your -- let me turn to the

    19 Prosecutor. Insofar as your testimony is both the

    20 product of scientific research, statistical research

    21 and also one that one might call a political testimony,

    22 because you have a thesis which corresponds to what you

    23 believe and to your commitments in the SDA and -- as a

    24 judge, I am somewhat disturbed that you have this

    25 thesis which is yours, which is being used by the

  102. 1 Prosecution, but at the same time you are presenting

    2 your work as a scientific work carried out by an

    3 academic at a high level, and you have said this both

    4 for the Prosecution and the Defence.

    5 I say this to you, because we are entitled to

    6 ask for the work to be produced. Of course we are

    7 wondering whether this would not disturb you, because

    8 you have not yet defended your thesis. We are thinking

    9 about a decision which we will not take tonight.

    10 I would like to know whether this would disturb you,

    11 whether it would cause any problems for you, that is to

    12 give us the work in the state that it is right now. As

    13 I say, my concern is that it is a scientific work, but

    14 you are not absolutely an expert such as the

    15 Prosecution witnesses that have been called in,

    16 university professors who are not involved in the

    17 conflict.

    18 You have a thesis, it is your right, it is

    19 not a criticism that I am making. My question is -- we

    20 will not take a decision this evening. The judges will

    21 discuss it, but would that be a problem for you in

    22 respect of your university, in respect of the

    23 completion of your work, would it be problematic for

    24 you for that work to be given to the Tribunal as it

    25 stands now, and that is both to the Defence and the

  103. 1 Prosecution, the Defence that might want to call you

    2 back or might want to file an additional brief or an

    3 additional reply. You see, that is the basis for my

    4 concern. It is not as much the statistics, but rather

    5 statistics that are being used to support a thesis.

    6 This is the concern that I have, and we would like to

    7 have your comments about this.

    8 A. There are no problems in that regard. It is

    9 possible to communicate this paper, there is no dispute

    10 over that, but you must know that from the standpoint

    11 of science, a problem has to be studied using sources,

    12 and a certain allegation has to be based in certain

    13 sources. Therefore to absolutely exclude any political

    14 considerations is impossible, because it is not a

    15 Master's thesis at a political science faculty and not

    16 at the mathematics department. So one may have the

    17 impression that politics is playing a part, but in

    18 defending certain positions in the paper, I have to

    19 refer to certain sources, but certainly not to

    20 political convictions.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: What concerns me -- you see

    22 I did hear your answer, but what concerns me are the

    23 rights of the Defence and the respect for an inter

    24 parte proceeding. Not only was this information not

    25 given to the Defence in the proper time, but your

  104. 1 explanations were long, I did not interrupt you -- the

    2 cross-examination was not always limited to the

    3 examination-in-chief, but I did not interrupt, because

    4 I think for the Defence the situation was a bit

    5 difficult, because in the end it -- your answers were

    6 both political and statistical.

    7 Therefore if you were being asked political

    8 questions, you could answer with mathematics and if you

    9 were being asked about statistics for which it did not

    10 have effects, you defended yourself with your

    11 convictions. That is your political thesis. I have

    12 simply noted down: we will not take a decision tonight,

    13 the judges will reflect about it, but I have noted that

    14 partially or fully, you would not find yourself in any

    15 difficulties vis-à-vis your university to give the

    16 information to the Tribunal, which is entitled to in

    17 fact demand it. This would help the future of the

    18 proceedings as we go forward.

    19 Do you have any comments you would like to

    20 make about this, Mr. Harmon?

    21 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President, I do not.

    22 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President?

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo?

    24 MR. NOBILO: I would like at the end to draw

    25 attention to a legal practice, a norm as it is

  105. 1 regulated in the country I come from. Actually in the

    2 legal system that I am working in, the expert witness

    3 is always and exclusively an independent person. His

    4 exemption may be required if he has personal links with

    5 the subject in dispute. I know that the Statute of the

    6 Tribunal has not regulated these matters fully, but

    7 I think that one might make an objection and say that

    8 this witness is most directly involved with the case in

    9 dispute, because he was at the head of the party that

    10 formed the army in Vitez that was opposed to the HVO.

    11 He was one of the leaders of the people fighting the

    12 HVO, and this disqualifies him as an objective expert

    13 witness. So will you please bear this in mind?

    14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we did not conceal

    15 that fact when we offered Mr. Kajmovic to your Honours

    16 and his statistical report and analysis. That issue,

    17 of whether Mr. Kajmovic had an active part in the civic

    18 and political affairs of his community was brought out

    19 on direct examination. There was no effort to conceal

    20 that. I would submit, Mr. President, there are not a

    21 lot of people who have conducted a study on the

    22 demographic changes in the Vitez Municipality, given

    23 the tremendously difficult circumstances, one can

    24 imagine conducting such a study would entail.

    25 We have endeavoured to bring to your Honours'

  106. 1 attention a report from a source who was formerly the

    2 President of the SDA, but your Honours can judge his

    3 credibility in assessing his testimony and the accuracy

    4 of the statistical data he has presented to you,

    5 particularly in light of the previous testimony that

    6 your Honours have heard about what happened in the

    7 villages about which he has testified and provided you

    8 with statistical data.

    9 For example, you have heard, Mr. President,

    10 from independent sources, from sources such as UNPROFOR

    11 and ECMM, that there are no people left, no Muslims

    12 left, in the village of Ahmici. That is something that

    13 has been corroborated by these statistics. I would ask

    14 you, Mr. President, when you bear in mind the source of

    15 this report, Mr. Kajmovic and his past political

    16 interests, that you also bear in mind the other

    17 testimonies that you have heard in this case in respect

    18 of what happened in various villages, what happened in

    19 terms of the meanings and methods that have been

    20 described by this witness through the testimonies of

    21 other witnesses. That is all I am saying,

    22 Mr. President.

    23 I do not think that I take issue with

    24 Mr. Nobilo's comment to disqualify Mr. Kajmovic. I would

    25 submit that Mr. Kajmovic is a witness who bears

  107. 1 listening to and it is up to your Honours as

    2 professional judges to weigh his interest and his

    3 information that he has provided to you in the context

    4 of this trial.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I would put things back

    6 into proper proportions. I must say that there was no

    7 lack of fairness on the part of the Prosecutor, because

    8 he stated in the beginning of the testimony, during the

    9 summary before the witness came in, that the witness

    10 had a significant political commitment with the Muslim

    11 community. There were no problems on that. If in

    12 absolute terms Mr. Nobilo's comment is valid, for today,

    13 nothing is amiss.

    14 But my second comment, which is something

    15 which I have already said several times, the judges

    16 must evaluate, given the context in all of these

    17 situations the true reliability, as they say in my

    18 system, the probative value or the weight of this or

    19 that testimony. That is the work of the judges and

    20 they will do that work, but the question that is for

    21 the judges to be able to do their work, I would like to

    22 know whether this cross-examination was able to take

    23 place under the best conditions, and I would like

    24 certainly to point out a few things.

    25 Now that we have heard what you have to say,

  108. 1 the decision will be taken. I think we do not need to

    2 have the next witness brought in. The day has been

    3 long, but from now on this Trial Chamber intends, and

    4 I say this for the interpreters, to begin at 2.00,

    5 except for some days, when there may be lunches that

    6 take longer or invitations that arrive, but ordinarily,

    7 this chamber will start to sit at 2.00 and will stop at

    8 6.30, with an attempt at a 20-minute break in the

    9 middle. We will try to stick to that schedule which

    10 will be better for the judges and I hope it will not be

    11 too disturbing for the work of the interpreters.

    12 Thank you very much, we will resume tomorrow

    13 at 2.00.

    14 (6.55 pm)

    15 (Hearing adjourned until 2.00 pm the following day)