1 Wednesday, 21st January 1998
2 (2.30 pm)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Usher,
4 please have the accused brought in.
5 (Accused brought in)
6 JUDGE JORDA: I suppose everybody is ready,
7 are the interpreters ready? These booths have been
8 working since this morning if I am not mistaken, so
9 I suppose everything is working just perfectly. Thank
10 you. Everybody hears me? Good afternoon.
11 All right, we can now resume. We will have
12 Ms. Smaila Sahman brought in again now.
13 Mr. Harmon, I think you had a few questions
14 you want to ask her; is that not right?
15 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Mr. President and
16 your Honours. Yes, I do.
17 JUDGE JORDA: The witness spoke for quite a
18 long time, she was very clear. I think you are only
19 going to ask for some clarifications that you were
20 going to ask. You are not going to have her repeat
21 everything, are you? I am counting on you, Mr. Harmon.
22 MR. HARMON: You can depend on me,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Now you have the sword of
25 Damocles hanging over your head. The number of days is
1 that sword. If you want to hear one witness for 60
2 days, you can do that. It is as you like.
3 (Witness entered court)
4 JUDGE JORDA: Ms. Sahman, do you hear me?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Were you able to rest a bit
7 after having spoken for so long yesterday?
8 A. I am fine, thank you.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We have not
10 finished with the examination. I believe the
11 Prosecutor is going to ask you several questions for
12 clarifying some of the points in your testimony for the
13 benefit of the judges.
14 Mr. Harmon, the floor is yours.
15 MS. SMAILA SAHMAN (continued)
16 Examined by MR. HARMON (continued)
17 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Sahman.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. Let me ask you some questions that will more
20 sharply focus on some parts of your testimony. Let me
21 begin by referring you to the event when the HVO police
22 came to your house on 24th January 1993, and asked your
23 husband for weapons. Can you describe to the court how
24 those men who came to your house were dressed?
25 A. They were dressed in camouflage uniforms with
1 the HVO insignia. They had the chequer boards on their
2 hats, and they introduced themselves as the HVO police.
3 Q. Ms. Sahman, you indicated throughout your
4 testimony that the people who came to your house were
5 looking for a sniper rifle. Did you ever see a sniper
6 rifle in your house and did your husband ever possess
7 one in your house?
8 A. We never even saw it or had one.
9 Q. Did you have weapons in your house?
10 A. We did have it.
11 Q. What kind of guns did you have in your house?
12 A. We had hunting weapons, and it was a Carbine
13 and a shotgun which we owned for seven or eight years,
14 and we have the proof for it.
15 Q. You, your husband and your family had in fact
16 a permit for those guns, a permit that was issued by
17 the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. HARMON: If I could have exhibit 213
21 placed on the ELMO, with the assistance of the usher.
22 Ms. Sahman, I am going to show you a copy of a permit.
23 You have originally provided me with the original
24 permit, and I am going to ask you if exhibit 213 is a
25 true copy of the original that you showed to me.
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Thank you. You also indicated -- let me turn
3 now to the next day, which is 25th January 1993. You
4 said around 6.00 in the morning, some sirens or alarms
5 went off at nearby factories?
6 A. Yes, the Mediapan factory and the Vatrostalna
7 company and the brick works.
8 Q. After that alarm went off at that particular
9 factory, shooting started, did it not?
10 A. Yes, for two days there was a lot of
11 shooting. The bullets did not hit our house, they were
12 going in different directions, in the vicinity of the
13 camp; that is where they went. There were some red
14 bullets flying there.
15 Q. Were those bullets flying from the direction
16 of the camp to the direction of the village of Strane?
17 A. Yes, in that area. I do not know if it was
18 exactly from the camp, but it was in that direction in
19 the area of Strane.
20 Q. You observed bullets coming from that
21 direction, around the camp, going into the village of
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. After that firing the weapon, firing for two
25 days, you said it sort of died down. Thereafter, the
1 HVO came to your house on a number of occasions on the
2 following days and continued to ask for the sniper; is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. The people who came to your house, how were
6 they dressed?
7 A. They all had camouflage uniforms with the HVO
8 insignia and the chequer boards.
9 Q. When they came to your house looking for the
10 sniper, did they help themselves to some of your
11 personal property?
12 A. They were taking whatever they wanted. They
13 would carry it out in their arms and we said, let them
14 just take it away, but they were taking things.
15 Q. Did you give them permission to take those
16 items, or were they stealing those items from your
18 A. We were not even asked. They came in and
19 they did whatever they wanted. We just stood there,
20 they did not ask us for any permission, they just did
21 what they wanted.
22 Q. You testified yesterday, Ms. Sahman, that
23 eventually your husband went to the village of Strane
24 and spoke to a gentleman by the name of Ivica
1 A. Andrijasevic, yes. Yes, he talked to him and
2 he asked for protection. He said that on the radio
3 waves, there was word that there were some snipers
4 there and he went down to the Cafe Sunce. Then all in
5 the HVO uniforms, they were walking around the house
6 and they told him, "Sit down, nobody will do anything
7 to you." He came back into the house and we just sat
9 Q. Mr.. Andrijasevic was a member of the HVO as
10 far as you knew; is that correct?
11 A. He was, yes. He was there around the Putis
12 area, that is where he is from. He had control over
13 that area.
14 Q. Ms. Sahman, I would like to turn your
15 attention to the theft of your car which occurred a
16 number of days later. You indicated that a number of
17 people came to your house and they took your car away.
18 Can you describe what they were wearing?
19 A. They also were wearing the camouflage
20 uniforms and they had the chequer boards. They did not
21 have the HVO insignia, they had something else on their
22 sleeves. They came, they said they needed the car,
23 they knew we had one, they knew everything. It was not
24 somebody at random who came. My husband took it out of
25 the garage and he said, "Do not turn it off", and he
1 was strong, you know, but he just let them take it. My
2 son started crying and he told him, "Do not worry, son,
3 we will buy another one." Then some got into the car
4 and some were in my brother-in-law's house. They had
5 their own car, a Golf. They usually had the Golf cars,
6 red and white and other colours, so that is how they
8 JUDGE JORDA: Please do not force the witness
9 to repeat that she has said. She already spoke about
10 the uniforms already. If the Defence challenges it, we
11 can come back to that. Let us try to remain with
12 points that in your opinion were not really made that
13 clear. We have already heard about the child crying
14 and the stolen car.
15 MR. KEHOE: Ms. Sahman, I would like to have
16 if I could exhibit 212 placed on the ELMO. I am going
17 to be asking you some questions, Ms. Sahman, about the
18 events relating to your husband being taken from your
19 home by the HVO and being taken to Kaonik camp. This
20 is an exhibit you have seen yesterday, Ms. Sahman. Let
21 me ask you some questions about it.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. There is a number 3 circled on that
24 particular exhibit, and, first off, let me ask you: is
25 that an area that you can see from your home which is
1 circled and numbered number 1?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. While your husband was --
4 A. Yes, I could see it.
5 Q. While your husband was incarcerated, while he
6 was imprisoned at Kaonik camp, you could see people in
7 the area of 3 digging trenches; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, I did see that they were doing
9 something, and later he came and he told me, "We are
10 working here, we are digging trenches."
11 Q. In fact he was escorted by a HVO soldier from
12 that area to your house one of the days he was in
13 custody; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, he did. He came and he put his hands
15 behind his back and he was escorted by a soldier with
16 the camouflage uniform, the HVO insignia and the
17 chequer board. He just came home and we did not know
18 what he was up to and he said, "It is not that good,
19 but we are just working."
20 Q. Ms. Sahman, there is a road that goes from
21 the Busovaca T-junction, past number 3 and continues
22 on. Do you see that road on that particular exhibit?
23 A. Yes, I do see it, yes.
24 Q. Is that the road that goes toward Busovaca
25 and Kiseljak?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If you were going to travel from the village
3 of Vitez, you would travel on the road that is
4 indicated at the lower right-hand corner of exhibit
5 212, up to the Busovaca T-junction, turn right and go
6 past number 3 and on to the direction of Busovaca and
7 Kiseljak; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Your husband was eventually released from
10 Kaonik camp on 8th February 1993?
11 A. Yes, he was released.
12 MR. HARMON: If I could have exhibit 214
13 placed on the ELMO, I am going to ask you, Ms. Sahman,
14 if you could identify what Prosecutor's exhibit 214
15 is. Can you recognise Prosecutor's exhibit 214 and can
16 you tell the judges what it is, please?
17 A. Yes, I recognise it. This is a certificate
18 of the release from the camp on 8th February when my
19 husband came back, so this is what we got. It says
20 that it is under the auspices, but then nothing of that
21 turned out to be.
22 Q. Let me turn your attention to the events that
23 took place after your husband was murdered. You said
24 that after your husband was murdered, you went to see a
25 man by the name of Maric.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you tell us, was Mr.. Maric in the HVO, and
3 if so, what part of the HVO was he in?
4 A. He was in the HVO, with the police. He had a
5 white belt for a while, he wore those. There are
6 several brothers there, Josip Maric and a younger one
7 and the others were there less, but those two were
8 there quite a bit. We saw them a number of times.
9 Q. Did you tell Mr.. Maric about the events that
10 had taken place?
11 A. I came there and I told him that I was
12 seeking protection. I told them, whenever I go to the
13 village and go back, I would find the house broken
14 into, but you know, they knew all this, they knew.
15 They told me, "We cannot give you anything. Why do you
16 not just stay there and nobody will do anything?"
17 I said, "We did stay there and look what happened to
18 me." He just kept silent, but I said, "Okay, I have no
19 other choice", so I went back home.
20 Q. Ms. Sahman, now I am going to show you two
21 photographs. You and I have had an opportunity to talk
22 about these particular photographs before coming into
23 court and you have indicated to me that you would feel
24 strong enough to identify the persons in these
25 photographs; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, I can.
2 Q. And you wanted these photographs to be shown
3 to the court; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. HARMON: First of all if I could have
6 exhibit 215 placed on the ELMO? Ms. Sahman, can you
7 identify the individual who is underneath the arrow?
8 A. Yes, I can; that is my husband.
9 Q. Thank you. You also indicated, Ms. Sahman,
10 that you had family members who were killed in the
11 village of Ahmici on 16th April 1993; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecutor's
14 Exhibit 110/2 placed on the ELMO, I am going to ask you
15 if you can identify, Ms. Sahman, the members of your
16 family who were killed in Ahmici on 16th April.
17 Starting at the top picture with the two individuals
18 seated on a couch, if we could focus on that first?
19 Thank you.
20 A. This is my late father.
21 Q. Okay. If we could now move up and focus on
22 the three individual photos; who are those men in those
23 photographs, Ms. Sahman?
24 A. My brother, late Nazif, who was born in 1950,
25 my brother Rasim, who was born in 1964 and my brother
1 Asim, who was born in 1954.
2 Q. All of those people lost their lives in
3 Ahmici on the 16th; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, I also have a nephew who was also killed
5 by the HVO.
6 Q. Thank you, Ms. Sahman. Now let me ask you
7 one last question. Can you tell the judges why you
8 fled to Zenica?
9 A. I fled because of the HVO, because we were
10 terrorised by them. We could not live there any more.
11 We held out as long as we could, and in the end I gave
12 up, left everything behind and went to Zenica.
13 MR. HARMON: Ms. Sahman, thank you very much
14 for your testimony.
15 Mr.. President, I would move into evidence
16 Prosecutor's exhibits 212 through 215.
17 JUDGE JORDA: No objection, therefore it will
18 be admitted into evidence.
19 Madam Sahman, as the Prosecutor has certainly
20 told you, you will now be asked some questions by the
21 Defence counsel of the accused, that is of General
22 Blaskic. I think it is going to be Mr.. Nobilo.
23 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO
24 Q. Thank you, Mr.. President.
25 Ms. Sahman, good afternoon.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. You told the Prosecutor during the
3 examination-in-chief that your husband never had a
4 sniper, that he only had hunter weapons. Ms. Sahman,
5 do you remember that you gave to an organisation called
6 Ajid a statement in Zenica in 1993?
7 A. What kind of statement?
8 Q. Do you remember that you made a statement for
9 them referring to the same things that you have
10 testified to now here?
11 A. Perhaps.
12 Q. What does "perhaps" mean?
13 A. I did make a statement.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me, Mr.. Nobilo, can you
15 be more precise with the question? I did not
16 understand it very well.
17 MR. NOBILO: My question was whether on
18 10th May 1993, the lady made a statement regarding the
19 same events that she has described here in the Tribunal
20 for the organisation called Ajid, the secret service of
22 So did you make that statement?
23 A. I do not know what organisation it was, but
24 I did make some statements.
25 Q. I will read to you a part of that statement,
1 and then I will also show you your signature.
2 A. Very well.
3 Q. Will you please confirm it, if you can
4 remember? You say in that statement:
5 "My husband Fadil was a member of the Army of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He had with him hunting weapons
7 and in the Army he was issued a sniper."
8 Did you say that?
9 A. He had hunting weapons from before and he has
10 the permits for them, for eight or nine years. As for
11 the Army, I do not know what he had there. He went to
12 the front-lines against the Chetniks at Turbe once and
13 what he was issued there I do not know. I do not know,
14 because we never saw a sniper, nor did he have one.
15 Q. I should like to ask the usher to show the
16 witness this statement, so that she can confirm whether
17 it is her signature or not. (Handed).
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. NOBILO: I would like to tender this
20 exhibit into evidence, and we can have it photocopied
21 during the break for your Honours. The source is the
22 Prosecutor's office.
23 MR. HARMON: No objection, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.
25 MR. NOBILO: Ms. Sahman, your house, how far
1 was it from the checkpoint in metres?
2 A. I do not know, I never measured it.
3 Q. But roughly could you tell us?
4 A. I do not know. It was not far, but I do not
5 know how far.
6 Q. How far is it from the intersection with
8 A. That is not far away either, it is all
10 Q. When the military policemen came, were they
11 correct in their behaviour when they collected the
13 A. They rang the bell, my husband asked who it
14 was, the answer was, "The HVO police". He opened the
15 door and they immediately pointed the pistol at him and
16 asked for weapons and he said, "What weapons?", and
17 they said, "Weapons", and he said, "Whatever I have has
18 been mine for a long time, I have nothing else."
19 They said, "But we need that too", and this
20 one kept the pistol pointed at his chest all the time.
21 Another one said, "Why do you not shoot him? Why are
22 you wasting your time with him?", and that in itself
23 was frightening enough. He asked for something in
24 writing. They would not give him anything and then
25 they said, "Just tell them that it is Miro from Kacuni
1 that took the rifles."
2 Q. Do you agree with my allegation that Ivica
3 Andrijasevic was a HVO commander for the village of
5 A. There were some kind of branches, but I do
6 not really know anything about that.
7 Q. Earlier on when you made your statement, you
8 said that Ivica Andrijasevic was a HVO commander for
9 the village of Jelinak.
10 A. When my husband talked to him, then he said,
11 "Do not worry, nobody will hurt you", because he is
12 somebody with a position, something to that effect.
13 Q. You told the Prosecutor that you did not dare
14 go to see your husband who was digging a trench at
15 Vlatko's house, so my question is: why were you afraid?
16 A. How could we dare walk in that direction when
17 there was no one there. There were only the HVO people
18 in uniform? I was afraid to go, I did not dare, I did
19 not have the courage.
20 Q. But what were you afraid of? Was there any
22 A. Before there was and there was not a living
23 soul there, except for them. Of course you had to be
25 Q. For how many days was your husband at Kaonik?
1 A. In the camp? For four nights; we counted
2 that. Four nights he spent there.
3 Q. And during these events in the village of
4 Strane, was the village intact?
5 A. All the men were taken to the Kaonik camp.
6 They were driven away every morning from the village of
7 Strane to the camp, to the Kaonik camp.
8 Q. During the investigation, you said that Maric
9 was in the police station.
10 A. That was the former medical clinic, but I saw
11 from my house that they gathered there often. I would
12 see people going in and out, so I thought they must be
13 there and I found him there. I asked him to help me.
14 Q. Did he carry out an investigation on the spot
15 where your husband was killed?
16 A. No, nobody did anything.
17 Q. Did you ask him to leave Busovaca and he
18 refused to let you go?
19 A. Where could we go there? We have no one to
20 go to there.
21 Q. But did you ask for permission to leave
23 A. I did not, I did not know who I would go to
24 for that permission.
25 MR. NOBILO: Could the Registry please let me
1 have the statement that we have just tendered into
2 evidence? No, it is all right, I have a copy here.
3 In that same statement, you said:
4 "They would not let us move out."
5 A. We had no one to ask, and we did not ask.
6 I do not know.
7 Q. So that was not correct, what you said in
8 that statement?
9 A. Well, there was nothing we could do except
10 decide for ourselves.
11 Q. My question is: was that true or not, what
12 you said in your statement? The question is: did you
13 ask and did they prevent you from moving out?
14 A. We did not ask, we did not ask.
15 Q. Did you report to the police that your car,
16 TV sets and other things were stolen?
17 A. Who could we report it to? No, we did not.
18 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President, that is
20 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mr. Prosecutor, any
21 additional questions?
22 Re-examined by MR. HARMON
23 Q. Just a few, Mr. President.
24 I asked you on direct examination,
25 Ms. Sahman, whether or not you had ever seen a sniper
1 rifle in your house, and your answer was no, you never
3 A. No.
4 Q. Let me ask you another question, Ms. Sahman:
5 was there an HVO barricade near your house as you were
6 asked by Mr. Nobilo?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Coming from the front-lines at Turbe, if you
9 know, were there other HVO barricades along the road
10 that led from, say, Novi Travnik to the Busovaca
12 A. That was where the junction -- at the
13 junction there was a barricade.
14 Q. If your husband travelled from the direction
15 of Turbe with a sniper rifle, would he have to have
16 crossed through the HVO barricade that was manned near
17 your house?
18 A. Yes, he would have to pass there.
19 MR. HARMON: I have no further questions.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I turn to Judge
22 Shahabuddeen; do you have any questions?
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Witness, I have one or
24 two questions. Some people came to your home and they
25 asked whether you had a sniper. I am a little unclear
1 in my own head as to whether you meant that they were
2 asking whether you had a sniper weapon or whether they
3 were asking whether you had a person shooting a sniper
4 weapon. What was it they were asking for?
5 A. They asked us about a sniper, "Do you have a
6 sniper?" We said: no, and we never did have one. You
7 can ask our other neighbours, Croats, those that my
8 husband went hunting with, but they said, "Never mind",
9 but later on we heard that there were reports that
10 there was a sniper firing from behind our house, and
11 then my husband went with Ivica Andrijasevic to look
12 around and then he said that was just a trick and he
13 came back home.
14 Q. Do I understand you then to be saying that
15 they were asking whether you had a sniper weapon in
16 your home?
17 A. No, no, when they came to our house, they
18 were just asking for a sniper rifle.
19 Q. So we are agreed, we understand each other.
20 All the weapons in your home were given up to the HVO
21 police, and in particular to a man who called himself,
22 I think, Miro from Kacuni; is that right?
23 A. Yes, that is right.
24 Q. After all those weapons were given up, did
25 the HVO still come back to your home and ask you for a
2 A. Yes, that was the first word they uttered,
3 "Give us that sniper; why do you not surrender it for
4 heaven's sake?", and he would say, "But I do not have
6 Q. All right. Now I will ask the Registrar to
7 show you exhibit 213. There is something there which
8 perhaps you can help me understand. Perhaps, Mr. Usher,
9 you could light it up on the machine? Now look at the
10 bottom left-hand section; do you see that? Look at the
11 line headed by the word "Calibre". Look at the
12 left-hand side of that line. Tell me, what is that
13 word? I just do not know.
14 A. You mean from the top? It says hunting
16 Q. Do you see a line marked "Calibre", the third
17 line from the very bottom, the bottom left-hand side.
18 A. Where it says "Snajper"? Is that what you
19 are asking about?
20 Q. Yes. Is that the same word as the sniper
21 which was being talked about, or does it mean something
22 different there?
23 A. No, then it would be indicated that he had a
24 sniper. You see there is a list of what he had, first
25 a hunting rifle and the Carbine. People could get a
1 sniper, but we did not have one.
2 Q. The correct understanding then is that that
3 line is saying, with the dash or slash, "No sniper"; is
4 that what it is saying?
5 A. Yes, that is what it says. "No sniper."
6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I see. Now I understand
7 you. Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Ms. Sahman, your testimony is
9 over. The judges wish to thank you for being very
10 courageous to describe these tragic events to us. You
11 can go back home now, under the protection of the
12 Witness and Victims Unit, and how are we going to
13 proceed Mr. Registrar now? Are we going to bring down
14 the blinds so that the witness can be accompanied out?
15 THE REGISTRAR: No, we have to close the
16 blinds just to allow the witness to leave.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Please stay seated for the
18 moment so that we provide full protection for you.
19 A. Very well, thank you.
20 (The witness withdrew)
21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe?
22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President and
23 your Honours, good afternoon. We will turn to our next
24 witness, who also is a protected witness, and I believe
25 the letter designation for this witness is Witness U,
1 as in "uniform".
2 To lay out the basis as to where this
3 particular individual fits into the indictment, I will
4 set forth the preliminary facts as follows. Before I
5 begin, I did address this particular issue concerning
6 Witness U and the protections that Witness U requires
7 with counsel prior to the session and they have
8 concurred to a pseudonym, Witness U, and also
9 protection for face and body.
10 With regard to the testimony of Witness U, as
11 your Honours heard yesterday from Witness T, there was
12 a significant amount of trench-digging and beating that
13 took place in the Kaonik camp, commencing the latter
14 part of January 1993 and going on until approximately
15 February 7th or 8th 1993. Witness U's testimony will
16 begin, your Honours, with the actual trench-digging
17 that took place and testimony concerning the beatings.
18 What Witness U will tell you is, without repeating the
19 testimony of Witness T, what actually took place,
20 because Witness U was one of the individuals who was
21 not only incarcerated in Kaonik camp commencing on
22 30th January 1993 but he was also taken out to four
23 different locations in and around the Busovaca-Kaonik
24 area, where he was forced to dig trenches under the
25 watchful eye of HVO troops under the command of the
2 He will also testify concerning the beatings
3 that took place at these locations. As Witness T told
4 you previously, there was much discussion about
5 particular individuals having been beaten while digging
6 trenches. Witness U will testify that in the dead of
7 night, he could hear those witnesses screaming as they
8 were being beaten. He will likewise testify as to
9 their release, and that is just a short sketch of the
10 testimony of Witness U concerning the trench-digging.
11 Witness U will also testify as to the choices
12 that were given to him concerning where he could go
13 upon his release from the Kaonik jail. He was given
14 the alternative of going to Zenica, Kacuni and
15 Busovaca. However, he was told by the HVO that should
16 he choose to go to Busovaca, there was no guarantee
17 that he could be safe and they could not guarantee his
18 safety. So with this Hobson's choice, he, of course,
19 went to Zenica.
20 Thereafter he will testify that he went to
21 another location, a village where he currently
22 resides. However his family, his father, mother,
23 grandfather, brother, cousin, remained in the Busovaca
24 area and on 27th April 1993, or late on 26th April
25 1993, his father who was an invalid, his grandfather
1 and his cousin were executed by a member of the HVO
2 called Zoran Marinic, known as Svabo, and that his
3 mother was wounded and his mother was thereafter taken
4 to Travnik.
5 With regard to the particular charges that
6 these facts will be directed to in the indictment,
7 naturally these charges begin with the persecution of
8 the Muslim population, because what Witness U will tell
9 you is that during the time-frame that he was in the
10 Kaonik camp from late January to approximately
11 8th February, approximately 400 Muslims were
12 incarcerated at that location and taken out to dig
13 trenches and other types of manual labour, in addition
14 to being beaten.
15 These charges obviously go to the persecution
16 charge themselves, the inhumane treatment of civilians,
17 that is set forth in the persecution charge in 6.2 and
18 6.4, as well as 6.5. Concerning the actual counts
19 themselves, his testimony will be directed towards
20 count 5 through 10, wilful killing of civilians. His
21 testimony will also be directed towards the inhumane
22 treatment of hostages that is set forth in counts 15
23 through 20, and if your Honours focus in on
24 paragraph 12 in counts 15 through 20, you will note
25 that the Kaonik camp is listed second from the top as
1 one of the locations where these individuals were
2 incarcerated and counts 13, 14 et cetera, mostly counts
3 13 and 14, delineate the fashion in which this
4 particular individual was treated contrary to law and
5 his facts will support counts through 20.
6 That is basically a thumbnail sketch of what
7 Witness U will testify to and it will be a continuing
8 follow-up of the events that took place in Busovaca in
9 January 1993.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe. Things
11 are clear now; we can have the witness brought in.
12 This will be a public hearing, the blinds will be
13 raised once the witness has taken the oath.
14 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, just as a
15 preliminary matter, an exhibit that I think we can
16 address at this juncture is yet another overhead of the
17 Busovaca area that has not been previously submitted
18 into evidence. I have given a copy to counsel,
19 Mr. Dubuisson has the copies that are before him. This
20 particular exhibit, and I believe this is exhibit 216,
21 Mr. Dubuisson.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that is right.
23 MR. KEHOE: It is another Rule 70 exhibit that
24 was provided by the United Kingdom and, consistent with
25 Rule 70, it has been previously given to counsel. So
1 at this juncture, Mr. President, we would offer exhibit
2 216 into evidence.
3 MR. HAYMAN: No additional comments other than
4 our general comments on these aerial photos that we
5 have previously stated, your Honour.
6 JUDGE JORDA: I think that we had reserved
7 the decision that we were rendering for the time
8 being. The Tribunal will give its decision at the
9 proper time. But whatever the decision the Tribunal is
10 going to take, we may not have to talk about this
11 document. We can have the witness brought in. We will
12 have to talk about it.
13 (Witness entered court)
14 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me? First you will
15 identify your name, without stating it, as it appears
16 on the piece of Registrar that the Registrar is showing
17 to you. Be sure it is correct, but do not say it.
18 Also, please remain seated to take your solemn
19 declaration, which in fact is your oath. Please read
20 the sentence which is on the paper.
21 WITNESS U (sworn)
22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Witness U. This is
23 the name we are going to give you. Since you are
24 benefiting from protective measures taken by the
25 Tribunal in agreement with the Defence and the
1 Prosecution. Please concentrate your statement, after
2 a few preliminary questions asked by the Prosecutor.
3 You have been asked to appear as a Prosecution witness
4 in the trial of General Blaskic. Once you have made
5 your statement, we will speak about the digging of the
6 trenches, the detention conditions, the conditions
7 under which you were released and the conditions under
8 which members of your family were murdered.
9 Mr. Prosecutor, this is how we are limiting
10 the discussion; you ask a few questions and then let
11 the witness talk. Go ahead, thank you.
12 Examined by MR. KEHOE
13 Q. Yes, Mr. President, thank you.
14 Good afternoon, Witness U.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. Witness U, how old are you?
17 A. 36.
18 Q. Are you of the Muslim religion?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Prior to 30th January 1993, did you live in
21 the village of Busovaca?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Did you live in the village of Busovaca with
24 your father, mother, grandfather, brother, cousins and
25 other members of your family?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Fighting began in Bosnia in April 1992, and
3 thereafter, did you join the Territorial Defence and go
4 fight on the front-lines?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Where did you fight?
7 A. At Visoko.
8 Q. How many times did you go to the front-line?
9 A. Once.
10 Q. Did you go any time after that one time?
11 A. I did not.
12 Q. When was that?
13 A. I think it was in July 1992.
14 Q. Witness U, fighting began in Busovaca on
15 25th January 1993, did it not?
16 A. Yes, it did.
17 Q. Where were you at the time?
18 A. Between 25th and 29th January, I was in a
19 house together with my family and other neighbours.
20 Q. What were you doing?
21 A. We were in a shelter.
22 Q. Were you actually engaged in fighting members
23 of the HVO between 25th and 29th January 1993?
24 A. I was not.
25 Q. Let me direct your attention to 30th January
1 1993. Did HVO soldiers come to your area, which
2 I think is approximately about 2 kilometres from
3 downtown Busovaca?
4 A. Yes, they came, between eight and ten of
6 Q. In your own words, Witness U, tell the judges
7 what happened when they came, where they took you, what
8 happened when you got to Kaonik Prison; tell the judges
9 in your own words, if you could, please.
10 A. On 30th January, they arrived at around
11 midday, about eight or ten of them. They wore
12 camouflage uniforms. They asked me to give them the
13 automatic rifle, because they knew I was a member of
14 the Territorial Defence. I did not have the rifle.
15 Our weapons were at the front-lines where the exchanges
16 were taking place. They also asked this of others.
17 Then they lined us up, we were 18, in front of my house
18 and they took us towards the centre of Busovaca. Near
19 the Sumarija, they searched us, then they loaded us on
20 to a minibus and took us in the direction of the Kaonik
22 They brought us in there, and put us all in a
23 single cell. We found there another two persons.
24 After a while, they started calling out the names and
25 they were taking us to another room which was also in
1 that same building. They were asking about rifles,
2 that is the weapons. The questioning took about ten to
3 fifteen minutes, and then they took us back to the
4 cells, but not to the same cell. On that day, none of
5 us went anywhere.
6 The next day, they started calling people
7 out, and 30 of us were called out. They loaded us on
8 to a truck of the Rab make, it was yellow colour, and
9 took us in the direction of Prosije. There we dug
10 trenches until late in the evening. We received no
11 food and no water. During those eight days in the
12 camp, I was at Prosije, at Kula, Kovacevac. The last
13 night in the camp, on the way back from Kula, just as
14 we were coming back, I heard of the murder of Jasmin
15 Sehovic and Nermin Elezovic. I found this out at the
16 barracks. That same day in the morning around 8.00,
17 the Red Cross vehicles arrived and the exchange took
18 place, and I went in the direction of Zenica.
19 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Mr. President, if I can
20 clarify some issues concerning this time-frame before we
21 move to the April time-frame, it may speed things
23 JUDGE JORDA: Go ahead.
24 MR. KEHOE: Witness U, you said that on
25 30th January, soldiers came to your village and
1 arrested 18 men; is that right?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Were these HVO soldiers?
4 A. Yes, they were.
5 Q. You said they had camouflage uniforms. Did
6 they have any insignia on their shoulders?
7 A. Yes, they had the HVO insignia.
8 Q. And the 18 men that were arrested, were they
9 all Muslims?
10 A. They were.
11 Q. And the HVO soldiers that arrested you and
12 the other 17 men, did you recognise any of those HVO
14 A. Yes, I recognised two of them.
15 Q. Who were they?
16 A. Dario Lastro, who went to school with me, and
17 Marinko Jevresak, whom I know by sight.
18 MR. KEHOE: If I can turn your attention to an
19 exhibit and I believe that exhibit is now 217,
20 your Honours, if I could ask that this not be put on
21 the ELMO, simply because it designates his residence.
22 If I could give that to counsel and your Honours and
23 one to the witness.
24 Witness U, you have seen this photograph
25 before, have you not?
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. The number up in the upper right-hand corner,
3 the number 1, is that your residence?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. If you follow the green line down to
6 number 2, is that the path that you followed when the
7 HVO soldiers took you and 17 other men to the centre of
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. What time of day was this when this arrest
11 took place?
12 A. Some time in the afternoon.
13 Q. So it was broad daylight outside; is that
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 Q. You said you were taken to the centre of town
17 after you were paraded into town and you were
18 searched. Would that be at the point, that is
19 number 2, on the main road?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thereafter, did you follow this green
22 line down to the Kaonik camp in the minibus?
23 A. Yes, we did.
24 Q. When you got to the Kaonik camp, did you see
25 any HVO soldiers manning the gate?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Were they military policemen?
3 A. Yes, they were.
4 Q. How did you know?
5 A. They had insignia.
6 Q. Then you said when you went inside, you began
7 to be questioned again concerning where weapons were.
8 A. After we were taken to the office, that is to
9 the cell.
10 Q. Who questioned you?
11 A. Zarko Petrovic and Marko Krilic.
12 Q. Were they likewise members of the HVO?
13 A. Most likely they were, they were wearing
14 camouflage uniforms.
15 Q. After they questioned you, you said you were
16 put in a cell. Can you describe the cell to the judges
17 and how many other people were in this cell with you?
18 A. The cell measured 3 by 2, I believe, 3 by 2
20 Q. So the cell was 3 metres by 2 metres.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could everybody lay down and sleep at night?
23 A. No, they could not.
24 Q. Were you given bread, blankets and water to
25 sustain you in January weather?
1 A. We did not receive blankets, we got bread and
3 Q. Correct me, there were approximately 20
4 people in this 3 by 2 cell with you?
5 A. It depended on the cell. Somewhere there
6 were 15 people, somewhere there were 20, somewhere even
8 MR. KEHOE: You also mentioned that you were
9 taken out to dig trenches and you mentioned various
10 locations and I would like to turn your attention to
11 exhibit 218, which is an excerpt of Exhibit 29,
12 your Honours.
13 Mr. Dubuisson, if you want me to use a letter
14 on this, or just give it another exhibit number?
15 THE REGISTRAR: This is 218.
16 MR. KEHOE: We can put that on the ELMO, if
17 your Honours want.
18 Sir, you have seen this map and these
19 locations before because you and I have spoken about
20 these locations, have we not?
21 A. Yes, we did.
22 Q. You noted in your testimony that you went out
23 to dig trenches on the first day; is that right? After
24 you stayed there, the next day?
25 A. The next day, the next day.
1 Q. Where was that? Can you use the pointer and
2 point to it on the map?
3 A. (indicates).
4 Q. What town is that, or village?
5 A. Milavice.
6 Q. What did you do there?
7 A. We were fixing up the dugouts there, we were
8 connecting the dugouts.
9 Q. Was this a military installation that you
10 were digging dugouts for?
11 A. Yes, those were military structures.
12 Q. Who was guarding you?
13 A. Soldiers who held the front-line.
14 Q. Were these HVO soldiers?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I think you noted that at this location, you
17 received no food, although you worked all day; is that
19 A. We did not receive any.
20 Q. Using that map and the pointer, tell the
21 court the next location where you dug trenches.
22 A. Prosije.
23 Q. Could you point to that?
24 A. (indicates).
25 Q. What did you do there?
1 A. Same types of work as in Milavice. We dug
2 dugouts and we covered them.
3 Q. So this was another military installation
4 that you were working on?
5 A. Yes, there were.
6 Q. Some time around this time, did the Red Cross
7 come and visit you and other people that were in jail
8 at Kaonik?
9 A. I think they visited us on the second or
10 third day.
11 Q. Were people taken out to dig trenches that
13 A. They were not.
14 Q. How about in the evening after the Red Cross
16 A. Some were called out, which meant that they
17 went somewhere.
18 Q. But you were not; is that right?
19 A. I was not.
20 Q. Let us turn our attention to the next day:
21 did you continue to dig trenches the next day after the
22 ICRC came?
23 A. Yes, we were.
24 Q. Do you recall where that was?
25 A. I am not sure whether it was Milavice or
2 Q. You picked Milavice, but did you dig trenches
3 at some time also at Kovacevac?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. Can you point to that location on the map?
6 A. (indicates).
7 Q. What did you do at Kovacevac?
8 A. We also dug dugouts.
9 Q. Another military installation?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you go to Milavice on more than one
13 A. Twice.
14 Q. How about Kovacevac?
15 A. Once.
16 Q. Those are three locations and you mentioned a
17 fourth location that you went to dig trenches; is that
19 A. Yes, Kula.
20 Q. Using exhibit 218, could you point Kula out?
21 A. (indicates).
22 Q. Tell the judges about Kula. What were you
23 digging in Kula, how many men were digging there and
24 what were the conditions for the prisoners such as
25 yourself digging there?
1 A. We arrived at Kula in the evening hours, the
2 30 of us, and as we were arriving, we were being
3 assigned to dig trenches. I was among the first, so
4 that I stayed almost at the start, which was -- we were
5 spaced about 10 to 15 metres apart and we dug trenches
6 there. There were people there who had come before us,
7 and they were engaged in the same work that we were.
8 Late in the evening, around midnight, we
9 could hear some shouting, which meant that somebody was
10 being beaten. We dug for about two or three hours, and
11 then a truck arrived. They put us on it and they drove
12 us in the direction of Kaonik. The first group had
13 been taken there before us, so that when we arrived in
14 the barracks, we saw that they had been beaten up.
15 They were bloodied, but we could not stop. They
16 immediately took us to our cells, so that we just had a
17 glimpse of them. That was the last night in Kaonik.
18 Q. During this night, you heard yelling. Did
19 you hear any of these men screaming?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Did they tell you how they were being beaten?
22 A. Yes, the next day during the exchange they
23 told us how they were beaten. They forced a prisoner
24 to go from one to the other and hit them with the
25 shovel handle and if he did not do it, then they would
1 beat him up and they would tell him how he should hit
2 them. They told us about the killings of Elezovic --
3 Jasmin Sehovic and Nermin Elezovic, who were there
5 Q. Were these HVO soldiers that were guarding
6 these prisoners and you in Kula the night before you
7 were released?
8 A. I did not understand the question.
9 Q. Were HVO soldiers with you when you were
10 digging trenches in Kula?
11 A. I do not know.
12 Q. When you were digging trenches in Kula, was
13 someone -- were there HVO soldiers on the line there
14 with you?
15 A. Yes, there were.
16 Q. Were there HVO -- was it an HVO soldier or
17 soldiers who were forcing these Muslim men to beat each
18 other in Kula, when you heard the screams?
19 A. Most probably it was them who did force.
20 Q. That was the night before you were released;
21 is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On the day you were released, and that was
24 8th February 1993; is that right?
25 A. 8th or 9th, I am not sure.
1 Q. On the day that you were released, did you
2 see how many Muslim men were being held in jail in
3 Kaonik when the exchange was supposed to take place?
4 Did you see the number of Muslim men there?
5 A. Yes, I did. I saw a large mass. The
6 number was somewhere between 400 and 420 prisoners.
7 Q. Were they all Muslims?
8 A. For the most part, they were Muslims.
9 Q. At that point, did you see some of these men
10 that had been beaten the night before?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. You told the judges that you went to Zenica
13 after you were released. Did the HVO give you a choice
14 as to where you wanted to go?
15 A. Yes, they did. We had a choice of Zenica,
16 Busovaca, Kacuni. They told us that they could not
17 guarantee safety in Busovaca, which meant that we could
18 only go to Kacuni or to Zenica. Some on their own went
19 to Skradno.
20 Q. Witness U, who told you that your safety
21 could not be guaranteed in Busovaca?
22 A. The personnel in the barracks.
23 Q. Were these HVO personnel?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Witness U, you decided to go to Zenica. Do
1 you know Muslim men who went back to Busovaca who were
2 harmed after they went back to Busovaca?
3 A. I do not know whether people were injured,
4 but I know who went.
5 Q. Did they stay there, Witness U, or did they
6 ultimately leave Busovaca?
7 A. At the end, they had to leave.
8 Q. Witness U, let me move to the events of
9 27th April 1993. I know you were not there, but can
10 you tell the judges what happened to your family on
11 27th April.
12 A. On 27th April 1993, in the evening, about
13 10.00 or 10.30 pm, Zoran, known as Svabo came with
14 another unknown person to me, to my house, and asked my
15 family about a radio transmitter and asked Ramiz
16 Hodzic. These were the two families that had stayed
17 behind. They searched the upper floor and set fire to
18 it. He left the house looking for Ramiz Hodzic again,
19 and as he could not find him, he came back to my house
20 and then, using his gun, he killed my father, my
21 grandfather, my brother, my cousin; and my mother was
22 wounded. Half an hour later UNPROFOR arrived. My
23 mother, my cousin and my brother were transferred to
24 the clinic in Busovaca. My father and grandfather
25 succumbed to their injuries on the spot.
1 In the clinic in Busovaca, my brother died
2 from his injuries, then my cousin and mother were
3 transferred to Travnik. On the 28th at 3.00 am, my
4 cousin died, but my mother survived.
5 Q. Witness U, how old was your grandfather?
6 A. He was born in 1908.
7 Q. How about your father; when was he born and
8 what was his physical condition at the time?
9 A. My father was born on 14th February 1945. He
10 was totally disabled, an invalid 100 per cent.
11 Q. And your brother?
12 A. My brother was born on 21st April 1977.
13 Q. Do you know when your cousin was born?
14 A. On 9th January 1975.
15 Q. This took place on 27th April 1993, and it
16 took place in your house that you previously described
17 in exhibit 217. By that time, had most of the Muslims
18 that lived in that area left the area?
19 A. Only two families stayed behind, my own and
20 the family of Ramiz Hodzic. The rest had left.
21 Q. You noted that the individual that did this
22 was Zoran. Was that Zoran Marinic?
23 A. Zoran Marinic, known as Svabo.
24 Q. Did you know this man?
25 A. I did.
1 Q. How did you know him?
2 A. His uncle lived in our immediate vicinity,
3 about 100 or 150 metres away, so I would see him there,
4 and also I know him from downtown; he worked as a house
6 Q. At this point, did you know if Zoran Marinic,
7 Svabo, was a member of the HVO?
8 A. I saw him when he escorted the prisoners to
9 Prosije. That was when I saw him for the first time in
11 Q. In fact, Witness U, he escorted you and other
12 prisoners to dig trenches in Prosije, did he not?
13 A. Yes, only when we went to Prosije.
14 MR. KEHOE: If I can turn your attention at
15 this point to our last exhibit which is exhibit 218,
16 which is two photographs, the top photograph being
17 218/1 and the second photograph 219.
18 Because the witness is a protected witness,
19 your Honours, I would just like to allow him to look at
20 the two photographs and describe his family members
21 that are in the two photographs respectively. He has
22 provided these and is willing to attest to his family
23 members that are in these two photographs.
24 If we could turn to the first photograph,
25 Witness U, exhibit 219/1, the one you are looking at
1 with the many members of your family -- yes, that one.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are any of your family members that were
4 executed on the evening of 27th April 1993 in this
6 A. Yes, there are. My father and my brother,
7 and my mother who was wounded.
8 Q. Moving from right to left, which individual
9 is your father?
10 A. The one in the red pullover.
11 Q. And your brother?
12 A. In front of him, wearing a light blue jacket
13 and a pack on his back.
14 Q. That is the young boy, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Behind the young boy and next to your father
17 with the red pullover is your mother; is that right?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Let us turn to the next photograph, which is
20 219/2. Are any of your family members that were
21 executed on 27th April in that photograph?
22 A. There are, there is my grandfather.
23 Q. Is he the individual, the man who is second
24 from the left with the brown jacket on?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour at this time,
2 your Honours, I have no further questions of this
3 witness. If I might just consult with my colleagues
4 for one moment? (Pause). Your Honour at this time we
5 will offer into evidence exhibits 216, 217, 218 and
6 219, and the request at this juncture, because it is a
7 protected witness, is that exhibit 217, the map with
8 the witness's home designated, and, of course, the
9 photographs, 219, be placed under seal. With those
10 caveats, your Honour, we have no further questions of
11 this witness.
12 JUDGE JORDA: No objection from the Defence.
13 Who now has the floor, Mr. Nobilo or Mr. Hayman? It is
14 Mr. Nobilo, all right.
15 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Good afternoon, Witness U. In the
18 examination-in-chief, you told the Prosecutor that
19 fighting occurred as of 25th January 1993, and that the
20 fighting went on until 29th January 1993. I would like
21 to know where those battles took place, how far away
22 from your house? Where was the front-line, the line of
24 A. Fighting could be heard at Kadica Strane,
25 which is about 2 or 3 kilometres from my house as the
1 crow flies.
2 Q. I will read a part of the statement that you
3 gave early on to members of the Office of the
4 Prosecution, so please confirm or deny it. You said:
5 "The attack started on 25th or 26th February
6 1993, on Sunday afternoon at 3.00. The Ustashas came
7 from the town of Busovaca."
8 Let me repeat:
9 "The attack started on 25th or 26th January
10 1993 on a Sunday afternoon at 3.00 pm. The Ustashas
11 came from the town of Busovaca, and they were moving
12 towards Kacuni in an armoured vehicle. Our soldiers
13 started to defend themselves by returning the fire
14 using a hand-grenade launcher. There was no conflict
15 in the town of Busovaca itself, but there was fighting
16 along the front-lines in the woods that were 500 metres
17 to 5 kilometres from the town. Our soldiers put up
18 resistance in a locality, in Kadica Strana which is
19 about 200 metres from the centre of Busovaca."
20 Is all that correct?
21 A. It is.
22 Q. How many days did you spend in Kaonik
24 A. From 30th January until the 8th or 9th; I am
25 not quite sure.
1 Q. Who did you hear from that Sehovic and
2 Elezovic had been killed?
3 A. From the prisoners at Kula.
4 Q. Can you give us the name of that person?
5 A. I would not like to.
6 Q. You said that you were exchanged. Who were
7 you exchanged with? How shall I put it. For whom were
8 you exchanged?
9 A. There were Croats that had been captured in
10 the area of Kacuni.
11 Q. Were they Croat civilians?
12 A. There was an intervention squad; that is how
13 we were told in the camp.
14 Q. And how many Croats were there that were
16 A. I do not know.
17 Q. While you were working on the dugouts, did
18 you see nearby soldiers of the BH-Army?
19 A. We did not see them, but we were shown where
20 the front-line of the BH-Army was, or rather of the
21 Territorial Defence.
22 Q. Did you see any single soldier in that
24 A. We saw some in the area of Kovacevac.
25 Q. Did the BH-Army fire at you, in your
2 A. No, not then.
3 Q. You said that your family was executed by
4 Zoran Marinic, called Svabo. You did not see that.
5 Who described this to you?
6 A. My mother.
7 Q. Is it the same Marinic Zoran called Svabo who
8 has been indicted by this Tribunal for those acts?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. NOBILO: That is all, Mr. President, thank
12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Are there any
13 additional questions that you would like to ask in
14 relation to the cross-examination, Mr. Kehoe?
15 Re-examined by MR. KEHOE
16 Q. Just one, Mr. President.
17 The questions that you were just asked on
18 cross-examination concerning the beginning of the
19 attack on 25th January, you were not present when those
20 attacks took place, were you?
21 A. No, I was not.
22 MR. KEHOE: Thank you very much, Mr. President,
23 your Honours.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Judge Riad?
25 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. You told us about the sad execution of your
3 father, grandfather and brother. To your knowledge,
4 what was the charge, why were they executed? If you
5 want to give me a bigger picture. Were they fighting
6 back, was there a quarrel, a battle between them and
7 between that Zoran Marinic, or was it a cold-blooded
8 execution? What was the reason?
9 A. I am not aware of any reason. They
10 themselves did not know why they came; probably because
11 those two houses were the only ones left.
12 Q. What happened to the other houses?
13 A. The people had abandoned them before that,
14 they had fled.
15 Q. This Zoran Marinic, if you know, was he
16 acting on his own, or was it some kind of official
17 attitude or organised way of executing people?
18 A. I do not know that.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Shahabuddeen?
21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: One question. The
22 Prosecutor was asking you about some people who went to
23 Busovaca and who later on had to leave Busovaca, and
24 I think he was interested in finding out from you why
25 they had to leave Busovaca. Your answer, I took it
1 down, was this:
2 "At the end, they had to leave."
3 What did you mean by that, that they had to
4 leave? Why did they have to leave?
5 A. Because they were collecting them again to
6 dig and complete the work on the dugouts, as far as
7 I know.
8 Q. Who was collecting them?
9 A. The HVO soldiers.
10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Witness U. You have
12 finished your testimony and the Tribunal thanks you for
13 having come to The Hague to tell what you experienced,
14 which is very painful for you and we hope that you will
15 be able to return home under peaceful conditions and
16 that you will be able to try to get beyond everything
17 that has happened. Thank you very much for having
18 come. Please do not move, you are a protected
19 witness. The judges will suspend the hearing now for a
20 half-hour break, and the witness will be able to leave
21 once the judges have left the courtroom.
22 (4.20 pm)
23 (A short break)
24 (4.50 pm)
25 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing.
1 Have the accused brought in, please.
2 (Accused brought in)
3 JUDGE JORDA: I sigh that it is still a
4 protected witness; is that correct.
5 MR. KEHOE: In part, Mr. President, the next
6 witness is Dr. Zahid Beganovic. Dr. Beganovic, who is
7 the Director of the canton hospital in Zenica, merely
8 wants facial distortion and name or identification.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Dr. Beganovic, and only face
10 distortion. All right.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe?
12 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President and
13 your Honours. We are taking a shift in the factual
14 presentation at this juncture. We will be moving back
15 to some other additional facts in Busovaca later on in
16 the week. However, because some of the witnesses have
17 to get out of town et cetera, we have to move ahead in
18 this area, somewhat out of sequence.
19 JUDGE JORDA: What is the calendar for the
20 week? Since you are raising this issue, we are meeting
21 tomorrow morning from 10.00 until 1.00 and then on
22 Friday. Are all your witnesses here, all those that
23 you have for this week?
24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, they are. For
25 instance Dr. Beganovic runs a rather large hospital
1 facility and has requested to go back as soon as
2 possible, so we are making a change in course and
3 covering the shelling of Zenica, or beginning to cover
4 the shelling of Zenica that took place on 19th April
5 1993. It is the Prosecutor's position that in the
6 shelling of Zenica numerous civilians were killed and
7 seriously injured and others slightly injured by HVO
8 shelling about midday on 19th April 1993.
9 Dr. Beganovic, who was a surgeon, an eye, ear and throat
10 surgeon at the hospital at that time, shortly
11 thereafter became the doctor of that hospital
13 He will testify to your Honours the serious
14 injuries that were suffered, exactly what those
15 injuries were, the number of those serious injuries and
16 he will give a number of the slightly injured without
17 going into the slightly injured in detail and a rough
18 estimate of the number of civilians killed; however a
19 subsequent witness will give a more exact figure on the
20 number of individuals killed.
21 With regard to the actual counts of the
22 indictment that Dr. Beganovic and the next several
23 witnesses will be addressing, are all those notations
24 in the indictment regarding the city of Zenica, the
25 attacks on cities, towns and villages and the killing
1 of civilians and causing serious injury and the
2 destruction and plunder of property, as reflected in
3 the persecution count, count 1 of the indictment would
4 be included in the testimony of Dr. Beganovic and the
5 subsequent witnesses.
6 Turning ourselves ahead to the unlawful
7 attack on civilians and civilian objects in counts 2
8 and 4, your Honours can see that the city of Zenica is
9 reflected in that count as well, so this testimony will
10 be pertinent to those counts. As continuing on, it
11 will also be pertinent to counts 5 and 10, the wilful
12 killing and serious injury counts as set forth in the
14 In substance, Mr. President, those are the
15 counts to which these series of witnesses will be
16 addressing themselves. I noted at the outset that we
17 are moving somewhat out of order, moving into the
18 Zenica shelling issue. Even in that sequence,
19 Mr. President and your Honours, we are putting
20 Dr. Beganovic on first because as I noted at the outset,
21 he runs a pretty big hospital and simply must get back
22 to Zenica.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.
24 MR. KEHOE: With that, Mr. President and
25 your Honours, we have no further comments at this time
1 and would move ahead with the testimony of
2 Dr. Beganovic.
3 JUDGE JORDA: About how long do you think
4 this is going to take, this testimony?
5 MR. KEHOE: He is going to tell us the serious
6 injuries of about 18 witnesses, I believe. Given his
7 qualifications it should be approximately half an hour
8 to 45 minutes. I would not think it would be much
9 longer than that.
10 JUDGE JORDA: All right, Registrar, we can
11 have Dr. Zahid Beganovic brought in.
12 (Witness entered court)
13 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me?
14 THE WITNESS: I can hear you.
15 JUDGE JORDA: I believe that you can indicate
16 your last name and first name for the Trial Chamber.
17 THE WITNESS: My last name is Beganovic and
18 the first name is Zahid.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Can you please remain standing
20 and read the solemn declaration that the usher is
21 giving to you.
22 DR. ZAHID BEGANOVIC (sworn)
23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, doctor. You may be
24 seated. You have agreed to testify at the request of
25 the Prosecutor in the case before this Tribunal against
1 the accused who is present in this courtroom, General
2 Blaskic. You, as a surgeon, at Zenica Hospital, you
3 witnessed shelling which caused wounds and deaths about
4 which you are going to speak. I believe that the
5 Prosecutor will ask you some general questions and then
6 you will testify, concentrating specifically on the
7 essential points, at least those that you consider to
8 be essential and which the Prosecution judges to be
10 Mr. Kehoe, the floor is yours if you want to
11 ask some preliminary questions and then allow the
12 witness to testify.
13 Examined by MR. KEHOE
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Good afternoon, doctor.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. A practical question: do you have your
18 glasses with you?
19 A. No, I do not. I left them behind, and
20 I think that they should be brought in for me. I left
21 them in my jacket.
22 JUDGE JORDA: Which means that the witness
23 needed to have some documents before him. Perhaps he
24 can speak without having any documents there to please
25 the Defence. We will have to go and look for his
2 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, Mr. Cayley just ran
3 back to take a look at --
4 A. But I think that I would be able to read.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.
6 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I think I will ask a
7 few preliminary questions concerning the doctor's
8 qualifications and I think Mr. Cayley will be back
9 during that period of time with the doctor's glasses.
10 Doctor, if you can, can you tell us your
11 position at this point and tell us about your medical
12 career and where you studied medicine and what
13 specialisations you focused on during your medical
14 career and what you are doing now?
15 A. I finished classical high school in Sarajevo
16 in 1965. I enrolled in the School of Medicine at the
17 University of Zagreb and I graduated by 1970, which is
18 when I became a general practitioner. Then after my
19 internship, I started practising in Zenica. After
20 that, I enrolled in graduate studies in occupational
21 medicine. When I completed my graduate studies and
22 specialisation, I enrolled in the ENT surgery
23 specialisation course in Ljubljana, which I completed
24 in Ljubljana in 1980 and since that time, I worked as
25 an ENT surgeon, that is surgeon for ear, nose and
2 During the war, I was in this position and at
3 the head of the Crisis Staff which was established at
4 the hospital so that they -- we could take better care
5 of them. Since the fall of 1993, I have been on duty
6 of the -- the Director of the canton hospital in
8 During the shelling of Zenica, I was the head
9 of the Crisis Staff and on that day, I was the
10 specialist for eyes, ears and nose on duty so that
11 I personally received some of the patients who arrived
12 on that day.
13 Q. That day you are talking about is 19th April
14 1993; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that was on 19th April 1993. I will
16 remember that date for the rest of my life, for three
17 reasons. The first reason is that the shelling took
18 place which we all will remember, and we had a lot of
19 injured civilians who were our patients. That date is
20 also the birthday of my son, so that is the second
21 reason why I remember it. On that day, my daughter was
22 supposed to go and congratulate my son on his birthday
23 and she was to cross that square. She met some friends
24 and colleagues about 50 yards from the place where this
25 shell fell and she was held up for a while by this
1 conversation, otherwise she would have been probably
2 dead. So this is the third reason why I remember this
4 On that day, we received many patients
5 severely injured. There were 18 of them who were
6 severely injured and there were 38 with lighter
7 injuries. There were 15 who were killed. One of the
8 18 of the seriously injured was brought to me. His
9 name is Velimir Sekerovic; he had serious neck
10 injuries. He was hit in the front of the neck by the
11 shrapnel and practically his pharynx, the throat, was
12 almost gone, and the larynx was exposed. He was still
13 alive after the aspiration and after we cleaned the
14 wound. We put him on the respirator and then proceeded
15 to perform the surgery.
16 He has no larynx left now, so he is a
17 seriously disabled person. Since he had also some
18 burns, he also has very large scars, so that he has
19 problems in turning his head, so this is the patient
20 that I personally treated in the surgery.
21 Q. Doctor, you at the time of the shelling on
22 19th April 1993 were not the director of the hospital,
23 were you? You took that position later on.
24 A. Yes, I later came to that position of the
25 Director and at that time I was the head of the Crisis
1 Staff which was concerned solely with the organisation
2 of these extraordinary events that were taking place at
3 that time, and also I was a specialist for ear, nose
4 and throat at that time, at the hospital.
5 Q. And you noted, doctor, that you yourself did
6 some work on one of the injured civilians, but you drew
7 a distinction between slight injuries, of which you
8 noted there were approximately 38, and serious
9 injuries, of which there were 18. Could you tell the
10 court how you made the distinction between slight and
11 serious injuries?
12 A. There is a general rule for ascertaining the
13 degree of an injury, whether it is a serious or
14 slighter. Slighter would be any minor injury, that is
15 that does not affect any systemic injuries, where we do
16 not expect injuries that would stay, and we believe
17 that these patients can go back home without durable
18 damage, whereas the serious injuries are the ones where
19 one of the major cavities of the body would be open,
20 whether it was cranial or abdominal or other; also if
21 there are multiple injuries to the system, one or more
22 bodily systems, or if any of the bone structures have
23 been damaged, or maybe a very large injury to the skin,
24 like higher degree burns. Some of the functions are
25 later expected to be impaired.
1 Q. Doctor, as Director of the Hospital, you were
2 asked by the Office of the Prosecutor to compile the
3 records of the 18 individuals that suffered serious
4 injury as a result of the shelling on 18th April 1993,
5 and you have compiled a list of those in the document
6 before you; is that right?
7 A. Yes, it is here.
8 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President and your Honours, the
9 document that is the list prepared by Dr. Beganovic is
10 the next exhibit, exhibit 220. The document you have
11 before you is the document that you prepared of the 18
12 that were seriously injured; is that right?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. While you did not treat all these patients,
15 did you as the Director of the Hospital have a chance
16 to review the medical files of these 18 individuals
17 prior to coming into the court today?
18 A. Yes, I treated the patient under number 4,
19 Velimir Sekerovic. I personally treated him, I treated
20 that wound and I already mentioned it, and I checked
21 the files of the rest of them, that is the release
22 papers and the case histories, and all these patients
23 were identified as serious injuries, with extremities
24 that had to be amputated or with some of the bodily
25 cavities being open.
1 Q. These 18 were the ones that suffered serious
2 injury as a result of the shelling that took place on
3 19th April 1993; is that right?
4 A. That is correct. These were all injuries
5 sustained through explosive device.
6 Q. If you could, doctor, could you go down the
7 list and, referring to the files that are beside you,
8 could you refer to the case histories for each of these
9 individuals, could you tell us if they are male or
10 female, the approximate date of birth and could you
11 tell us the serious injuries each particular patient
13 JUDGE JORDA: We have this document. If
14 I have understood things correctly, the third column
15 perhaps is the date of birth; at least this is what
16 I think.
17 MR. KEHOE: That is fine, Mr. President.
18 I would like the doctor to tell us exactly what the
19 serious injuries are here. Some of them are
20 amputations. Some of them are as radical as
21 amputations; some are not as radical as amputations.
22 Nevertheless, with regard to the particular count which
23 reflects the suffering sustained by the civilians,
24 I think it is beneficial for the court to understand
25 exactly what these individuals suffered.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Do as you like, of course, but
2 I think according to the indictment, what is important
3 is to make the connection between the injuries and the
4 shelling, about which the witness already said they
5 were serious, unless that is contested by the Defence.
6 We do not have to take the medical file of each of the
8 Does the Defence challenge any of this? The
9 doctor has just said there were 18 serious injuries,
10 very serious injuries. He explained what constituted
11 the serious injury. I do not know, does the Defence
12 want any additional explanations. Mr. Hayman?
13 MR. HAYMAN: I do not think there is any
14 aspect of the good doctor's testimony that the Defence
15 will contest.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, I hope that the
17 witness understands why I have intervened here. We are
18 not asking for explanations about every piece of this
19 testimony, but what I think is important in the
20 accusations against General Blaskic is to show the
21 connection between these injuries and the shelling.
22 This document has the date of 18th April 1993, about
23 which the witness is testifying. He said that what had
24 happened were serious injuries.
25 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, this particular
1 witness is not the witness that is there to make the
2 connection. This witness is just a witness to explain
3 to the court what exactly the serious injuries are.
4 I think that the witness can go through these 18
5 patients rather quickly and then we will be just
6 completing the testimony.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Let the witness say what he
8 needs to say, but I want you to understand my
9 objection! A witness is here to testify and he has
10 just done so; he said there were injuries that were
11 serious. Now, of course, we can be satisfied with that
12 sentence -- I do not want to waste time because of me,
13 but the judges could also ask that the exhibit medical
14 files -- that the 18 medical files be given to us,
15 which would be difficult for you.
16 The witness has taken an oath; he says what
17 he saw, he was the head of the Crisis Staff. He said
18 that, as a doctor, these 18 people who came in on that
19 day, because they had been injured in the shelling and
20 that they were seriously injured. That is all I have
21 to say. Now do as you like and let the witness say
22 what he has to say the, but we are counting the minutes
23 and every minute counts.
24 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.
25 Could you go through those files, doctor, and
1 tell us briefly the serious injuries suffered by the 18
2 patients which are depicted in the report that you
4 A. Yes, I shall try and be very brief going
5 through this list.
6 Number 1, is Biljana Francic, born in 1967,
7 and she had an injury in the area of the abdomen, and
8 shell fragments remained inside, so a cavity had to be
9 opened and this fits within the description I gave of a
10 grave bodily injury.
11 Number 2, Zehrudin Valentic, born in 1970.
12 He also had a serious explosive injury of the chest.
13 Then number 3 is Goran Ilic, born in 1973,
14 who also sustained explosive injuries in the neck, the
15 chest and abdomen, which also required surgery and
16 opening a bodily cavity.
17 Number 4 is Sekerovic Velimir. I have
18 already referred to him; it was a grave injury of the
19 neck which I personally operated on.
20 Then number 5 is Mario Jurcevic born 1971 in
21 Zenica, and he had an injury of the lower jaw; a part
22 of it was missing when he was admitted. Then also he
23 had a wound in the neck and a part of the upper jaw as
25 Number 5 is Ahmet Mutapcic, born in 1938 --
1 Q. I think that is number 6, doctor, on your
3 A. Number 6 is Ahmed Mutapcic, again an
4 explosive injury in the lower jaw, a highly complex
5 fracture, and an injury of the head.
6 Number 7 is Jasmin Hodzic. He also had an
7 explosive wound in the area of the head, in the upper
8 jaw, and his face and the temporal region, which
9 affected his ear. His ear was injured, and the large
10 arteries, the temporalis artery on the left-hand side
11 with heavy bleeding.
12 So number 8 is Muratovic Ibrahim, an
13 explosive wound in his extremities, both his lower legs
14 and his left upper arm with the bones being shattered
15 of the left upper arm, and the right upper leg.
16 Number 9 is Cvjetinovic Velibor, born in
17 1968. He had to have an amputation of his foot, of his
18 left foot, and an injury of the right foot as well.
19 His big toe on his right foot had to be amputated and a
20 bone from the foot removed, the right foot, the
21 metatarsal bone, and an explosive wound in the left
23 Then there is Suada Kadric, born in 1956,
24 Kadric. She had an explosive wound in the lower leg
25 and the hip, left lower leg and hip, with many shell
1 fragments in the right hip.
2 Muhamed Zelenkic, born in 1961, and in his
3 case there was an explosive wound on the left upper
4 leg, and a fracture of the bone, a complicated fracture
5 of the left.
6 Then Zekira Muratovic, born in 1957, also
7 explosive injuries in the left foot and left lower leg,
8 with the absence of the first and second metatarsal
9 bones, which means partial amputation of the foot.
10 Slobodan Vukovic, born in 1966. In the case
11 of this patient, there was also an injury caused by
12 explosives in the left shoulder, a fracture of the left
13 upper arm, a multiple fracture of the left upper arm
14 and multiple rib fracture, ribs 1 to 3, which means an
15 injury of the chest as well.
16 14 is Numo Pojskic, born in 1914. He also
17 had an injury of the ribcage on the left, an injury of
18 the abdomen and shell fragments in both areas. That
19 was Pojskic.
20 Then we come to Muradif Dedic, born in 1948,
21 again an explosive injury with an amputation of his
22 left lower leg and a complicated fracture of the left
23 upper leg and a complex wound in the left upper leg,
24 because the shrapnel went upwards.
25 Then we have Muharem Colak, born in 1977. He
1 had a very serious trauma of the left lower leg due to
2 which he suffered a bleeding and traumatic shock.
3 Then Ivan Loncar, born in 1931 --
4 Q. Excuse me doctor, starting with Colak
5 Muharem, was his left leg amputated?
6 A. Muharem Colak?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Born in 1977, he had a pressure wound and a
9 wound caused by explosive of the left lower leg, and
10 heavy bleeding and shock.
11 (Not interpreted) heavy bleeding and shock
12 and amputation of his right lower leg.
13 The last patient is Asim Osmanagic, born in
14 1947 from Zenica. He also had a very large explosive
15 wound in the right upper leg and he suffered a
16 haemorrhagic shock, and he was primarily treated for
17 this shock due to heavy bleeding.
18 Q. Before we finish with those, doctor, if we
19 could go back to Loncar Ivan where the right leg was
20 amputated. I believe the English interpretation did
21 not come through, Mr. President, and I believe that the
22 patient Loncar had his right leg amputated up to the
23 knee. Can you just give that medical file result
24 again, please, doctor, so we can make sure the record
25 is complete? It should be the second to last one.
1 A. Ivan Loncar. What are you interested about
2 him? He had traumatic amputation, traumatic amputation
3 because of the explosion of his extremity of his right
4 leg, and he suffered haemorrhagic shock.
5 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, we are not going to
6 go into the medical records of the 38 that are slightly
7 injured. We are just leaving it at the 18 and the
8 death certificates of the approximately 15 will be
9 addressed by the other witness. At this time, we would
10 offer exhibit 220 into evidence and we have no further
11 questions of Dr. Beganovic. Thank you, doctor.
12 A. You are welcome.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo? I see that your
14 client is ...
15 MR. NOBILO: Just a moment please,
16 your Honours. Mr. President, the Defence has no
17 questions for this witness.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. No further
19 questions, Mr. Kehoe?
20 MR. KEHOE: No, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad, Judge
22 Shahabuddeen? I have no questions either. We could
23 interpret and speak a great deal about all of this.
24 Were there any forensic tests done? I am not asking
25 this of the witness but of the Prosecutor. Were any
1 forensic reports done, because in count 8, you speak
2 about serious injuries? Were there any forensic tests
3 that were done?
4 MR. KEHOE: There will be some other witnesses
5 that will discuss what actually happened directly after
6 the shelling. The only reason, Mr. President, as I said
7 at the outset that we brought Dr. Beganovic in out of
8 order was so that Dr. Beganovic could get back to the
9 hospital in Zenica.
10 JUDGE JORDA: All right, you answered my
12 I would like to thank you on behalf of my
13 colleagues and the entire Tribunal, doctor, for having
14 come here. I suppose you have a great many
15 responsibilities as the head of the hospital and
16 treating those patients who were so seriously injured
17 in the war. We would like to thank you and hope that
18 he can go back peacefully to his work.
19 Can we have Dr. Beganovic escorted out of the
20 courtroom. Thank you.
21 (The witness withdrew)
22 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, before you have the
23 next witness brought in, where are we now? According
24 to the list which you gave to us, there were anonymous
25 witnesses. I would like to see where we are. You had
1 said that there would be 13 witnesses. What is the
2 schedule that you have in mind? How many have already
3 testified? According to the Registrar, we have already
4 heard five.
5 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we have six more
6 witnesses for this week.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. So then you will
8 finish by the end of this week; is that right?
9 MR. HARMON: That is correct, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. All right, we can
11 have the next witness brought in. Is this a protected
13 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President, the next
14 witness also is a protected witness. He will have a
15 pseudonym and he will have face distortion. He will be
16 referred to as Witness V, is that correct, as in
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, this is Witness V.
19 MR. HARMON: In summary, Mr. President, my
20 colleague Mr. Kehoe has identified the areas that apply
21 to the Zenica shelling. This also is a Zenica shelling
22 witness, so his testimony will relate to count 1,
23 persecution, paragraph 6.1, paragraph 6.2; counts 2 to
24 4, unlawful attacks on civilians and civilian objects,
25 paragraph 8; and counts 5 through 10, the wilful
1 killing and causing of serious injury, paragraph 9.
2 In summary, Mr. President and your Honours and
3 counsel, Witness V is a photographer who has lived in
4 Zenica most of his life. He will testify about the
5 locations where various artillery shells fell on
6 19th April 1993. He responded to the scene, he took a
7 number of photographs which he will identify and we
8 will introduce into evidence, and he will also identify
9 a video film which accurately depicts the scene of the
10 shelling. That concludes my summary, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. A relatively brief
12 witness? About how long will you be working with this
14 MR. HARMON: I think that he has to identify
15 approximately 15 photographs, which he will describe to
16 the Trial Chamber and there is a video film that should
17 last about 11 minutes.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. All right,
19 Registrar, let us have Witness V brought in, please.
20 (Witness entered court)
21 JUDGE JORDA: Witness V, first of all, do you
22 hear me? First we want you to check your identity,
23 your name on this piece of paper, but do not state your
24 name, do not say it out loud. Just make sure this is
25 in fact who you are.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 JUDGE JORDA: You will now read the
3 declaration which is being given to you. This is your
4 oath, in your own language. Read it, please.
5 WITNESS V (sworn)
6 JUDGE JORDA: You are a witness for whom
7 protective measures have been put into place. We will
8 call you Witness V. You will testify about all the
9 points that the Prosecutor has mentioned to us,
10 specifically what you experienced at the time of this
11 shelling of Zenica on 19th April 1993. The Prosecutor
12 will ask you several questions. After that, you will
13 testify in your own words and the Prosecutor will ask
14 for certain clarifications in support of his indictment
15 against General Blaskic who is being tried before this
17 The floor is yours, Mr. Prosecutor.
18 Examined by MR. HARMON
19 Q. Witness V, are you a freelance photographer
20 and were you so employed on 19th April 1993?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were you present in the city of Zenica on
23 19th April 1993?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you hear detonations coming from part of
1 the town of Zenica on that date?
2 A. I did.
3 MR. HARMON: If I could have the assistance of
4 the usher in showing the witness a series of
5 photographs, approximately 16 photographs which will be
6 part of an exhibit.
7 Mr. President, your Honours and counsel, it
8 will be Prosecutor's exhibit 221.
9 For your Honours' benefit, counsel's benefit
10 and anybody in the viewing audience, the photographs
11 that will be seen and presented by the Prosecutor in
12 part of this case will be extremely graphic and the
13 video film which will conclude the presentation of the
14 evidence will likewise be extremely graphic and
15 disturbing, so I inform your Honours of that at this
16 point in time.
17 Please, Mr. Usher, if you could disassemble
18 that exhibit and take the first photograph and place
19 that on the ELMO?
20 Mr. President and your Honours, this for the
21 record should be 221/1.
22 Witness V, did you take this photograph?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. Can you tell the judges what this photograph
1 A. This is the view from my house in the
2 direction of the area where the shells fell. I started
3 to take pictures because that is my job.
4 Q. Did you shortly thereafter go to that
5 location where the smoke was coming from?
6 A. I did, certainly.
7 Q. All right.
8 Mr. Usher, I am going to interrupt with one
9 other exhibit. Could I have exhibit 222, please?
10 Could that be placed on the ELMO?
11 Witness V, first of all can you describe the
12 area where this smoke or the shelling had occurred?
13 Can you give us a description of that area, please?
14 A. The smoke can be seen rising from this area
15 marked with C. That was where a vehicle caught fire
16 from the shell, a shell set it on fire.
17 Q. Witness V, what kind of an area was this?
18 A. This is the very centre of town, where there
19 are many pedestrians, housewives, people with nothing
20 to do, students, pensioners. That is how towns were
21 designed in our country, with a downtown area where
22 everything took place. It was mostly the commercial
23 centre of the town. That is also where the cafe-bars
24 and restaurants are and free space for sitting down,
25 walking around and so on.
1 Q. Now in a moment I am going to be showing you
2 a series of photographs. You have drawn this
3 particular diagram, have you not, diagram 222?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You indicated with various letters, A through
6 E, the locations where you took particular photographs
7 that I am going to show you in a few minutes; is that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. Let me begin -- thank you,
11 Mr. Usher, I have concluded with this particular
12 exhibit. Let me begin then by turning to the area on
13 the diagram with a letter A, and show you two
14 exhibits. The first exhibit will be 221/2; if that
15 could be placed on the ELMO.
16 Do you recognise that photograph, Witness V?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Was that photograph taken at the position
19 marked letter A on diagram 222?
20 A. Yes, it was.
21 Q. What does that photograph depict?
22 A. The place where the shell impacted.
23 Q. If I could turn to the next photograph,
24 221/3, did you take this photograph?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Was that also taken in and around the area of
2 location A?
3 A. Very close to it, to area A, and this is one
4 of the consequences of the shelling. These were kiosks
5 selling hot dogs, food. It is very nearby.
6 Q. Now let me turn to point B which is marked on
7 your diagram that you drew for us. Let me start with
8 photograph 221/4. Did you take this photograph and
9 does this photograph accurately depict the scene of the
10 shelling on 19th April 1993?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. Can you please tell the judges what this
13 particular photograph depicts?
14 A. You can see the spot where the second shell
15 impacted, and the effects the shrapnel has had on the
16 car. This is the point of impact of the shell, that is
17 point B.
18 Q. This shows a number of dead people in and
19 around that particular point of impact; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Let us turn to another photograph,
23 221/5, which is another view of the same scene.
24 A. Yes, it is the same car, but from a slightly
25 different angle, and you can see the victims in the
2 Q. Now if we could turn to the next photograph,
3 221/6. What is that?
4 A. This photograph shows the victims. This is
5 about 15 or 20 metres from points A and B where the
6 shells fell.
7 Q. All right. Could you point out with your
8 pointer the number of people who are dead and who
9 appear in that particular photograph?
10 A. (indicates).
11 Q. So starting at the left-hand side, there
12 appear to be two bodies and then in the middle there
13 appears to be a body.
14 A. There are other photographs where you can see
16 Q. Let us turn to the next photograph if we can,
17 221/7. Can you describe that photograph? Is that a
18 similar photograph taken at the same scene, point B?
19 A. A little to the right, taken from a position
20 slightly to the right in relation to the previous
21 photograph and you can see the victims. They are
22 mostly around this wall.
23 Q. There are some other photographs we can show
24 later that better depict that. Now can we turn to the
25 location on the diagram which is indicated point C, and
1 could we have the next photograph, 221/8. Witness V,
2 is this a photograph taken from the location of point C
3 and can you tell the court what it depicts?
4 A. Yes, this is the car that was on fire and of
5 which fire I saw the smoke and started towards the
6 place where the shells fell and the vehicle burnt out
7 as a result of these shells and these shop windows were
8 also broken. The crater was here, the crater and the
9 traces of the shell fragments.
10 Q. The crater is indicated on the left-hand side
11 of that photograph near the margin; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now if we turn to 221/9 a slightly different
14 view, does this better show the crater and the car that
15 is damaged?
16 A. Yes, of course.
17 Q. Thank you very much, Witness V. Let me turn
18 to the next photograph, which is 221/10. This is a
19 series of four photographs that shows the main street
20 and the pedestrian mall from slightly different views.
21 Let us start with 221/10. What does that particular
22 photograph depict?
23 A. This is directly across from the points A and
24 B where the shells fell. The injured had already been
25 taken away and the dead were still lying on the
1 ground. Had I come a bit earlier, I would have
2 probably seen the injured ones as well, but the
3 civilian protection personnel had already brought them,
4 taken them to the hospital, so originally there were
5 more victims there.
6 Q. What is the large building in the centre of
7 that particular photograph?
8 A. That is the main department store, and in
9 front of the department store was a plaza where people
10 sat and took rest, and where the victims are lying on
11 the ground. That is where the stalls were, where the
12 vendors were selling cigarettes and such items, but
13 that is where people would stroll and this is where you
14 pass from one part of the town to the next, and this
15 was in the -- around midday and the mosque is nearby,
16 it is right there, and at the time when the shells were
17 fired, people would go to the mosque and also the
18 housewives would be shopping and also students would be
19 on a midday break, people who would meet and get
20 together there, so that is where the life was going on.
21 Q. Approximately how many metres away from this
22 location was the mosque located?
23 A. About 50 metres from the dead. Very close to
24 the department store.
25 Q. Let me turn to the next exhibit which should
1 be 221/11, which is a slightly different view. Can you
2 describe what this particular view shows?
3 A. This is the view from the centre of town
4 towards another part of town, in the direction where
5 the street goes. You can see the kiosks, the victims,
6 and you can see where the points of impact were and
7 also the burnt-out car. This was point B and point A
8 is right outside of the picture, and you can see the
9 consequences, thereby I mean the victims. Had it not
10 been for the vehicles there probably would have been
11 more victims. They were parked there so I think that
12 saved some lives.
13 Q. Let us turn to the next photograph, 221/12,
14 another photograph which you took. Does this show
15 three of the victims of the shelling, one in the upper
16 top left-hand corner and one in the centre and one in
17 the left lower foreground?
18 A. Yes, and this is directly across from the
19 points A and B, and so this was the consequence of
20 these shells, these victims.
21 Q. Now if we can turn to the last photograph in
22 this series, which is 221/13, can you tell us what this
23 particular photograph depicts?
24 A. This photograph shows that there were stalls
25 there for vendors. You can see that people would walk
1 there, that this was a pedestrian area, and also it
2 depicts the victims, and you can see some of the
3 traces, because some people had been carried off the
4 scene. This is what I found. This is also directly
5 across from points A and B.
6 Q. Now let me turn to location D on your
7 diagram, which is exhibit 222, and turn to the first
8 photograph from that area, which is 221/14. First of
9 all, before you identify this particular photograph,
10 can you describe what kind of an area this was to the
12 A. This was a pedestrian street and this was
13 lined up with coffee bars and coffee-shops, where the
14 youth would gather, and this is where the shell hit and
15 the coffee bar was downstairs and upstairs, and there
16 is another photograph which has the view from the other
17 side, so there is no car traffic here, only
19 Q. For the record, that particular photograph
20 you just pointed to -- I seem to have lost my computer
21 monitor transmission -- there we go. In the
22 photograph, there is a building with a hole right in
23 the building. The hole in the building in the centre;
24 is that where the shell impacted?
25 A. Yes, this is the point of impact of this
1 shell, where it hit.
2 Q. Now let me turn to 221/15. Can you tell the
3 judges again what this photograph is?
4 A. It is the same street, but you can just see
5 how many coffee-shops and coffee bars there are, how
6 many tables out. Across from it is the independent TV
7 station in Zenica, right there (indicates). The shell
8 impacts here.
9 Q. Lastly let me turn to point E on your diagram
10 and the last photograph in this series. This is
11 photograph 221/16. Can you tell the judges what this
12 photograph shows?
13 A. Here you can see a bus stop, you can see
14 where the shell impacted and I will also point where
15 the local radio station is. This is the point of
16 impact of the shell, this is the bus stop and this is
17 the radio station where you can see the traces of the
18 shell fragments (indicates).
19 Q. Witness V, did you have an opportunity to see
20 a videotape with me last night?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That videotape is in three sections; is that
24 A. That is correct, yes.
25 Q. The first section shows the general area
1 where the shells in the pedestrian mall and the area
2 where the department store are located; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The second part of the film shows a burning
6 car, which would be near your point C in your diagram;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the third portion of the film shows an
10 area of the coffee bars where the shell impacted above
11 the coffee bar?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You were at those locations on 19th April
14 1993. Does the film accurately depict the scene as you
15 saw it and as you remember it on 19th April 1993?
16 A. Yes, it does.
17 MR. HARMON: Mr. Dubuisson, this film is in
18 three segments. It is interrupted, the first segment,
19 by a small blue field that will appear and then there
20 is a second brief segment of about 20 seconds and then
21 there is a blue field and then there is a third longer
22 segment of approximately 6 minutes. I defer to you how
23 you care to identify that, whether as exhibit 223 as a
24 total exhibit or as 223/1 to 223/3. I leave that to
25 your discretion.
1 However I would again, Mr. President and
2 counsel and those people in the audience who would be
3 watching this film, inform you that this film is
4 extremely graphic and disturbing. With that,
5 Mr. President, I would ask the booth to lower the lights
6 and play the whole film in one sequence.
7 (Videotape played)
8 A. This is a staircase where you go down into
9 the supermarket section of the department store. These
10 are the points A and B where the shells impacted.
11 These are the consequences of the shells. This is
12 directly across from points A and B. This is down the
13 street, this is across and here you can see the
14 consequences. There would have been more victims, but
15 the first shell that fell killed the people that it
16 did, and then after that the people fled. Otherwise,
17 it is a very dense area, there are a lot of pedestrians
18 there. There were other dead there, but I encountered
19 fewer of them than a colleague of mine who arrived
20 before me, and took pictures of more of them.
21 So this is in front of the department store
22 called Bevrecenka, right across points A and B where
23 the shells fell. Those were the stalls for vendors and
24 it was their merchandise. There are also passers-by
25 and pedestrians. These are body parts. There was also
1 a children's playground nearby and a large residential
2 block and you could also see the mosque on the other
3 side, the department store, and also the area where
4 there are a lot of coffee-shops and coffee bars where
5 the youth gathered. Up there was the movie theatre and
6 the plaza, and then again the staircase going into the
7 basement of the department store.
8 This is point C where the car was burning.
9 These are the consequences of what was marked as D,
10 where the coffee bars are and where the independent
11 television called Zetel was located.
12 This is the coffee shop marked with D. Above
13 the door is the impact of the shell. This was a coffee
14 bar and both downstairs and upstairs. That is the
15 point marked as D. This is again the consequence of
16 this and the wounded had already been taken away. This
17 is the inside of the coffee bar, and again this is
18 where the shell marked with D impacted. What you can
19 see out of the window is the independent television,
20 Zetel. A lot of youth gathers here.
21 You can also see the power of the explosion
22 in these images. This is a vehicle that belongs to the
23 independent television station.
24 (Videotape stopped)
25 MR. HARMON: If we could have the lights,
1 please, thank you.
2 Thank you, Witness V.
3 Mr. President, I would move for admission of
4 Prosecutor's exhibits 221 through 223 and then I have
5 concluded my examination of the witness. Thank you.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
7 May I turn to the Defence, Mr. Nobilo?
8 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO
9 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Just a few
11 Good evening, sir?
12 A. Good evening.
13 Q. Witness V, did you take any other photographs
14 than what we saw here tonight?
15 A. You know the judicial bodies and the police
16 and the others did not really allow us to take
17 pictures. I sometimes had to behave like a paparazzi,
18 I had to lie or I had to dissemble, so there were
19 others. As you see, there were no police or
20 representatives of judicial bodies there, so as soon as
21 we arrived we had to -- we were lucky to have taken
22 this many, otherwise there would have been many more.
23 Q. I did not understand. Do you have any other
24 photographs than the ones that you offered to the
1 A. I do not have any more. There was also a
2 shortage of photographic materials and they would not
3 let me work afterwards.
4 Q. Can you point me to the direction of the
5 north here?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 MR. NOBILO: Maybe we can put on the map.
8 This is exhibit number 222 of the Prosecution. Can you
9 point in this diagram, number 222, where the north was?
10 A. The west was here (indicates).
11 Q. Please just the north, that is the standard.
12 A. Let me see, north would be this way
14 Q. Could you put your pointer in the direction
15 of north?
16 A. This is my very lay orientation.
17 Q. So in which direction is north going, let us
18 say from point D?
19 A. Let us see. From point D going towards B but
20 not quite.
21 Q. Let us see, from point D diagonally across
22 towards B?
23 A. Yes, but this is a very lay type of
24 orientation, so I would probably take it with some
1 MR. NOBILO: Thank you very much. No further
3 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions.
4 JUDGE JORDA: There are no other questions.
5 Witness V, the Tribunal thanks you for your
6 testimony, which demonstrated a great deal of courage,
7 the fact that you went down into the midst of all of
8 this and took these very striking pictures. We will
9 have you escorted out of the courtroom now.
10 (The witness withdrew)
11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?
12 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, that concludes our
13 witnesses for today.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We will suspend the
15 hearing now. Let the witness leave. We will meet
16 together tomorrow at 10.15. The court stands
18 (6.30 pm)
19 (Hearing adjourned until 10.15 am the following day)