1 Thursday, 29th January 1998
2 (10.10 am)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Registrar, please have the
4 accused brought in.
5 (Accused brought in)
6 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning, can everyone hear
7 me well, the interpreters, everybody? In that case,
8 can we begin, is the Defence ready, General Blaskic,
9 the Prosecution, the assistants? Of course, we are
10 ready too, so it is Mr. Cayley who will continue on
11 behalf of the Prosecution.
12 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President,
13 your Honours, learned counsel. The next witness,
14 Mr. President, is a witness that wishes to be heard in
15 closed session. I have spoken with Mr. Nobilo, he is
16 not in disagreement with this process. It is entirely
17 within your hands. He has already testified in another
18 trial in the Tribunal and there are now reasons which
19 necessitate him wishing to be heard in closed session.
20 I can go into detail in closed session if you wish.
21 JUDGE RIAD: In the other testimony, did he
22 testify in closed session?
23 MR. CAYLEY: He did not, your Honour, no, but
24 there are now reasons why he does wish to testify in
25 closed session.
1 JUDGE JORDA: The court is in agreement.
2 Mr. Registrar, please establish a closed session while
3 Mr. Cayley explains to us the main outlines of the
5 (In closed session)
13 Pages 6487 to 6581 redacted - in closed session
1 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President, the next
2 witness will be protected with face and pseudonym, but
3 we can go into public session.
4 JUDGE JORDA: It is Witness Z?
5 MR. HARMON: Yes, that is correct,
6 Mr. President and your Honours. If your Honours please,
7 I can give you a summary of what Witness Z will testify
8 about and then identify the parts of the indictment
9 that relate to his testimony.
10 Witness Z will take us back to the Busovaca
11 municipality. Witness Z is a Bosnian Muslim who in
12 January 1993 resided in Busovaca with his wife and
13 child. He was a truck driver by profession and was so
14 employed in January 1993. When he returned to his home
15 in Busovaca after a long haul of 20 days or so, 20 days
16 on the road, he found that the situation in fact had
17 changed considerably. He will testify that his family
18 had fled, he will testify that he and three other
19 Muslim men took refuge in a house and within a matter
20 of days, members of the HVO military police from Vitez,
21 I say Vitez, entered his house, robbed his companions
22 and then aimed their weapons at point blank range and
23 fired upon he and his three companions. His
24 companions, he will testify, were killed and he
25 miraculously survived.
1 After the shooting, Mr. President and
2 your Honours, he fled, he eventually made his way into
3 the centre of Busovaca, where he made contact with a
4 policeman who was a Croat and he asked that policeman
5 to take him where other Muslims were.
6 (In open session)
7 MR. HARMON: The policeman essentially agreed
8 to do that and then transported Witness Z to the Kaonik
9 Prison, where Witness Z remained for a considerable
10 period of time. Witness Z will testify about his
11 experiences in the Kaonik Prison, he will describe the
12 conditions there and he will describe his experiences
13 as a forced labourer at three different locations in
14 and around Vitez and Busovaca. Ultimately,
15 Mr. President, he was exchanged. He will testify that
16 he lost approximately 17 kilograms of weight while he
17 was in captivity.
18 Mr. President, the testimony of Witness Z
19 relates to count 1, persecution, specifically
20 paragraphs 6, 6.2 through 6.6, and paragraph 7. It
21 relates to counts 2 to 4, paragraph 8, unlawful attacks
22 on civilians. It relates to counts 5 through 10, the
23 wilful killing and serious injury, paragraph 9 of the
24 indictment. It relates to counts 11 through 13,
25 plunder of property, paragraph 10. Then it relates to
1 counts 15 through 20 dealing with the inhumane
2 treatment of detainees, hostages and human shields.
3 That concludes my summary, Mr. President and
4 your Honours.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Any additional
6 questions? How long did you think that this witness
7 will be here?
8 MR. HARMON: One hour, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar, please have the
10 witness brought in.
11 (Witness entered court)
12 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Do you hear me?
13 I will call you Witness Z, as you are under protective
14 measures. We would give you a piece of paper with your
15 first and last name, but please do not say it, simply
16 confirm that it is your identity. Is this your first
17 and last name?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
19 JUDGE JORDA: So from now on, we will call
20 you Witness Z. You have accepted to come to this trial
21 as a witness, asked by the Prosecutor. This is the
22 trial of General Blaskic, who is here. Please would
23 you take the oath, this is a declaration you have to
24 read, please remain seated and read in your language
25 the solemn declaration that is given to you.
1 WITNESS Z (sworn)
2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. The Prosecutor gave
3 us the main outline of your testimony and the events of
4 which you seem to have been a witness. Now the
5 Prosecutor will ask you some questions and he will let
6 you speak, it may be he will lead you. There is no
7 need for fear, you are here under the protection of the
8 International Criminal Tribunal and your identity is
9 protected, your voice is protected. Please, you can
10 speak without any fear, the Trial Chamber is listening
11 to you. Mr. Prosecutor?
12 Examined by MR. HARMON
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Good afternoon, Witness Z.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. Witness Z, are you a citizen of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina and are you a Muslim by faith?
18 A. Yes, I am.
19 Q. In January 1993, did you live in the town of
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Were you employed as a truck driver at that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In January 1993, were you a civilian or were
1 you a member of the army or the Territorial Defence?
2 A. I was a member of the Territorial Defence as
3 a driver.
4 Q. In January 1993, did you return from Split
5 after having driven, been on the road for about 20
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You remember the approximate date when you
9 returned to Busovaca from that long haul, that long
11 A. The 25th, the 24th, I do not know exactly.
12 MR. HARMON: All right. Witness Z, I am going
13 to ask you to relate the story that you have told me to
14 the judges, but I am going to divide it into two
15 parts. I am going to ask you to tell the judges what
16 happened to you after you returned to Busovaca up to
17 the point where you arrived at Kaonik Prison, and then
18 I will ask you some questions. Then I will ask you to
19 relate to the judges the second part of your story,
20 that is what happened to you when you were in Kaonik
22 If I could have for the first part of the
23 witness's testimony Exhibit 249 shown to the witness
24 and given to counsel and the Trial Chamber?
25 Mr. President, your Honours and counsel, this
1 is an exhibit similar to many we have seen in this
2 trial, it is an enlargement of Exhibit 216, an aerial
3 image and it contains a legend at the back.
4 Witness Z, you have had a chance to examine
5 an aerial image and you have indicated on that image
6 certain locations, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Very briefly, you will be telling us a
9 narrative form of testimony but so we could illustrate
10 your testimony, can you tell us what number 1 is very
11 briefly, what number 2 is very briefly and what number
12 3 is on this photograph?
13 A. Number 1 is my house. Number 2 is the barn
14 where I spent a night. Number 3 is the police station.
15 Q. Is the green line that is on the Exhibit 249
16 the path that you took from your house and ultimately
17 arrived at the police station at number 3?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. HARMON: Could you please tell the judges
20 what happened to you after you returned to Busovaca in
21 January 1993?
22 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Before the
23 Witness Z continues, I would like to organise our
24 work. Maybe before he starts with his statement, we
25 can have our break, because we have to end today at
1 5.30 at the very latest. I do not think that we will
2 be able to hear other witnesses today Mr. Harmon, but we
3 will see, so we could start again at 4.30 and then
4 continue for about an hour. In case we will not be
5 able to start with another witness, this witness will
6 have to come back in two weeks or more. We will talk
7 of it later. I think that this is the way we are going
8 to work, so we will resume at 4.30.
9 (4.10 pm)
10 (A short break)
11 (4.30 pm)
12 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed, please
13 bring in the accused.
14 (Accused brought in)
15 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Witness Z, could you please tell the judges
17 what happened to you after you returned to Busovaca in
18 January 1993?
19 A. After having spent 20 days in Split,
20 I returned by car to Busovaca, where I was meant to go
21 on to Zenica and unload food. I returned home as
22 I always did. I did not find anyone at home. My wife
23 and a five month old baby had left in the meantime.
24 I stayed there, I spent the night in my house that
25 night and the next day I went out to see whether any of
1 the neighbours were there, and I found Nezrudin, Nusret
2 Begovic, I had a talk with him and he told me that in
3 the town of Busovaca, a number of Muslim businesses had
4 been blown up, cafes, shops and the rest.
5 I asked who else was around and so I went out
6 and in an about an hour or less, a policeman came, by
7 name Ivica Vidovic, and he told me not to leave my
8 house and if there were any more of us to gather there,
9 that there would be no problems, just for us to stay
10 home. Husanovic Fikret was also there, Midhat
11 Hadzibegovic, Nijaz Neslanovic and I told them to come
12 to my place, so that we should stay there, and we spent
13 the whole day there, sitting around and late in the
14 afternoon, we saw a soldier about 200 metres from my
15 house talking to Luka Lovric, who was pointing at our
17 The soldier came to the door. Actually,
18 before he entered, Fikret Husanovic said that there
19 should not be any problems because he was his
20 neighbour, his neighbour Josip. The soldier came in,
21 he had a pistol in his hand, and probably because of
22 the surprise, the pistol went off and he fired into the
23 floor. He was scared himself and he went off
24 immediately, having said that there would be no
25 problems. Five or ten minutes later, he came back with
1 two more men. He entered, he made us sit down and he
2 started questioning us. While he was questioning us,
3 another one with a camouflage hat was opening the
4 cupboards. He started asking Midhat what his name was,
5 where he came from, and then Nijaz. When he reached
6 Fikret he said to him, "there is no need to ask you
7 because I know you".
8 He asked us whether anyone had searched us
9 for weapons. We said that Ivica Vidovic had. He said
10 that he was a commie and what had he to do with it. We
11 stayed there, then he asked Fikret whether he knew
12 somebody by the name of Oliver. Fikret said he did,
13 then he told him that Oliver had been killed. He
14 asked, "do you know, Fikret, who killed him?". Fikret
15 said, "I do not". He said, "the Turks", repeating
16 three or four times, "the Turks killed him". Then he
17 asked the other two, "what are we going to do with the
18 balijas, the Turks?". He nodded with his head, telling
19 them to go outside into the hallway. They went out and
20 in about a minute or two weapons could be heard.
21 They entered the house and opened fire on
22 us. Three of us got killed. I lay there among them
23 and when they had emptied their weapons, I heard boots
24 walking out of the house, and through the window or
25 rather the door of the balcony, I saw a light and a
1 strong explosion, and I do not remember anything after
2 that, what exactly happened. They had insignia of the
3 HVO police here with the word "Vitez", this was the
4 insignia worn by Ivica, I did not notice what the other
5 two were wearing. They were armed with rifles.
6 Afterwards, when I came to, I crawled out
7 because the others were dead and I went to the barn of
8 Salih Hodzic. I stayed there until the morning. In
9 the morning around 7.00, I headed towards the police
10 station, and I got close to the police when I observed
11 Slavko Katava, a policeman whom I called and asked him
12 whether I may approach. He said I could if I was not
13 armed, so I walked up and he asked me what was wrong.
14 I asked him to take me where there were other Muslims,
15 and so he took me to Kaonik where almost all detainees
16 were Muslims and so I got there.
17 Q. Witness Z, let me interrupt you there just to
18 clarify a couple of points about your testimony, the
19 first part of your testimony. Did these events, the
20 murder of your friends, occur on 26th January 1993?
21 A. They did.
22 Q. Your three friends who were murdered, were
23 they Muslims?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. One of the men who came into the house and
1 committed the murders was wearing an HVO military
2 police badge that had "Vitez" on it; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did the others also identify themselves as
5 being part of the military police from Vitez?
6 A. I do not remember.
7 Q. All right. Were the other people who were
8 with the man with the badge from the military police in
9 Vitez, were they wearing camouflage uniforms?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Prior to murdering your friends, did they
12 take any personal property from you or your friends?
13 A. They said -- he said that if we had any gold
14 or money to put it on the table. We did not have
15 anything, at least that is what we said, except for
16 Midhat Hadzibegovic, who took off his watch, but it had
17 an inscription because his father had received it after
18 50 years of service, so he gave it back to him.
19 Q. Witness Z, you eventually made your way to
20 the centre of Busovaca where you said you talked to a
21 policeman by the name of Katava and he eventually took
22 you to the HVO military prison in Kaonik. Did you
23 inform the policeman about the murders that had taken
24 place the day before?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Could you tell the judges why you did not
2 tell him about the murders?
3 A. I did not dare, I did not trust anyone any
5 Q. All right. Now let me pick up your testimony
6 about Kaonik Prison and before we get to that, I would
7 like to have Exhibit 250 handed to you and to the
8 judges. This will relate to the next part of your
9 testimony. Witness Z, you are going to be in the next
10 part of your testimony referring to three locations
11 where the HVO forced you to commit -- to dig trenches
12 and you have indicated to me and I have then prepared
13 this exhibit, the locations where you were forced to
14 dig trenches; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Those areas indicated are Strane, Milavice
17 and on the far left of Exhibit 250 there is a green
18 over the word Kovacevac. You will be referring to that
19 area as Bare in your testimony, is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So when you testify digging at a location
22 known as Bare, that is the location we are talking
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Please, Witness Z, carry on with your
2 A. So once I arrived in Kaonik, the camp,
3 I found many Muslims there before me and I was
4 immediately put in a cell in which there was between 15
5 and 20 of us and that same day, we were called to dig
6 trenches. They came by car to pick us up and they took
7 us to Milavice. We spent the day and the night
8 digging, so half a day and one night. They did not
9 give us anything to eat, we had to work hard and then
10 the next day, a replacement came, another group came
11 and we were taken back to Kaonik.
12 After a rest of, I do not know, maybe one
13 day, I went to Kovacevac, to Bare. I was digging there
14 from the morning until the evening. They brought us
15 back, I spent the night, and then again I was taken to
16 Milavice for digging one day, one night and another
17 day. Digging there in addition to me was Nedzad
18 Nusretbegovic, Faruk Tulic and some others whose names
19 I cannot recall, some 20 of us. There was Juzbasic
20 Saban. We were digging trenches. Saban was about 10
21 metres behind us digging a trench 2 metres by 1.5
22 metres. Three HVO soldiers came with masks on their
23 faces, and they said that the balija had to be shot and
24 all of us had to be killed, and they forced us into
25 this hole that Saban had dug. They ordered us to look
1 down and to fall on our knees. They cocked their
2 rifles and there was silence, and then Faruk Tulic was
3 taken out for disobedience, for not bending his head
4 low enough, and then they kicked him for a while and
5 threw him back amongst us afterwards.
6 I later returned and when we set off near the
7 cafe called, "Jedane Splave", or "The Eleven Blue
8 Ones", a group was waiting for us and Nedzad
9 Nusretbegovic was beaten there in the head, he was
10 kicked in the head and he had concussion from this.
11 Then after all this, we got back to Kaonik.
12 Later, after a short rest, they took us to
13 Strane to dig trenches. I was digging there for about
14 an hour and with me was a boy of five from Jajce, his
15 surname was Begic, and he was wounded in the cheek with
16 a sniper and I was hit in the armpit. Drago, who was
17 guarding us at the time, the owner of the "Sunce" or
18 "Sun Cafe", took us for treatment. He treated us and
19 took us to the infirmary, to the medical centre.
20 Afterwards we were taken back to Kaonik and I do not
21 know how but the manager called me to talk to me, asked
22 me whether I was afraid, whether I was in pain and he
23 said that I would not be taken to dig trenches or to do
24 any forced labour until my exchange, so that I was put
25 in a cell where there were already men who were being
1 spared forced labour.
2 That would roughly be what happened until my
4 Q. Do you remember the date of your exchange,
5 Witness Z, or how many days you spent in captivity?
6 A. I do not exactly remember the date, but
7 I spent 12 days in detention and I was exchanged by the
8 Red Cross.
9 Q. Did you lose weight as a result of your
11 A. I lost some 17 kilos.
12 Q. Let me ask you some questions to clarify your
13 testimony about your stay in the Kaonik camp. First of
14 all, you said when you arrived you were placed in a
15 cell with about 15 to 20 other people; were those all
17 A. Yes, they were.
18 Q. Were they civilians?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What were the dimensions of the cell in which
21 you and the 15 to 20 other Muslims were being detained?
22 A. 2.5 metres by 3 metres.
23 Q. The first night you were taken out to dig
24 trenches, and you were taken to a location in, was it
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you got to the location in Milavice
3 where you were forced to dig trenches, were you
4 relieving another group of people who had been digging
5 trenches, and if so how many were there?
6 A. We relieved another group, there were some
7 20, 25 people in our group and also when we finished
8 digging, another group relieved us.
9 Q. Were the people who were digging trenches in
10 your group, were they all Muslims and were they all
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did it appear to you that the group you had
14 relieved and later the group that relieved your group
15 were also civilians?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The next location where you went to dig
18 trenches was at the location on the map you have
19 referred to as Bare. How many civilians were taken
20 with you to Bare to dig trenches?
21 A. Some 15 to 20 at the most.
22 Q. Were those 15 to 20 people all Muslims and
23 all civilians?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At Bare, were you also relieved by another
1 group of forced labourers?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Approximately how many?
4 A. Also some 20 people.
5 Q. Did they appear to be civilians as well?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you eventually were taken to Milavice
8 for a second time, how many Muslims were taken to
9 Milavice with you to dig trenches?
10 A. Some 20, 22.
11 Q. While you were at Milavice, were you forced
12 to shout anything to a front-line position that was
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell the judges what you were forced
16 to shout?
17 A. "Where are you balijas?", we had to swear at
18 their mother and then, "come on balijas, what are you
19 waiting for, we are ready, we are waiting for you",
20 something like that.
21 Q. Can you describe to the court very very
22 briefly what also happened to Saban while he was at the
23 front-lines at Milavice. I am referring to the incident
24 where they covered him with dirt.
25 A. After that thing where it seemed that they
1 would kill us, shoot us, Saban stayed on. Then they
2 took him and covered him, put him in earth as if they
3 were to bury him alive and once they covered him with
4 earth, not completely, but they started to cover him
5 with earth, they took him out. He was kicked as well
6 and then they had to -- they said they had to wash him
7 and then they brought water and washing him, they
8 sprayed him with water so as to supposedly give him a
10 Q. What was the temperature outside?
11 A. It was January, minus 15 degrees, so minus 15
13 Q. Were the people who were guarding you at
14 Milavice and Bare and at Strane HVO soldiers?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I would like to now turn your attention to
17 the location of Strane. The translation, at least the
18 English translation, Witness Z, that I received was
19 that a 5 year old boy was wounded. Is that correct or
21 A. Not 5, 15 year old boy.
22 Q. Okay. At that location, Witness Z, the 15
23 year old boy was shot; where was he shot?
24 A. In the cheek, beneath his eye, a bullet
25 passed there.
1 Q. Where were you shot?
2 A. In the armpit.
3 Q. Later in your testimony, you said that you
4 went back to the Kaonik military and you met with the
5 manager of the prison. Who was the manager of the
7 A. There was Zlatko Aleksovski later on. I was
8 brought to him and all the sparing was given by Ivo
9 Milic, who was a guard. When he took him to his room,
10 he said, amongst others, you are not going to work and
11 there was a very large book there, some kind of a
12 diary. At the back of it, the cover, he said that
13 I had to be spared from labour.
14 Q. So he kept some kind of a book, a record of
15 people who were engaged in labour.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Let me turn your attention to one other
18 aspect and that is while you were in custody, were you
19 informed or told by some of your fellow detainees about
20 human shields being used at Merdani?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you identify the people who told you
23 about being used as human shields and tell the judges
24 what they told you had occurred?
25 A. So when they put me in the room where there
1 were people spared from forced labour, in there was
2 Sead Delkic and his brother Besim Delkic, Semin was
3 there also, Arnaud, whose first name I cannot recall,
4 and he said that while we were digging somewhere, that
5 they went to Merdani as human shields and they did not
6 know, there were 15 of them who had been called out,
7 they gave him a rope, then they tied them in three
8 groups of five and then put them so tied up on to buses
9 and they drove them from Kaonik by the old railroad
10 towards the village of Merdani.
11 There they put them in three rows and by
12 loudspeaker, they were calling for surrender and then
13 they started going on. According to their story, from
14 Merdani there was fire that came, the shooting started
15 so they retreated. They were escorted by some kind of
16 an armed vehicle made of steel which had semi-automatic
17 rifle on it.
18 Q. Witness Z, who did they say made them into
19 forced shields and put them into that dangerous
21 A. The HVO soldiers. I do not know. They did
22 not discuss it.
23 Q. Let me turn your attention very briefly to a
24 statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on
25 23rd February 1995. You pointed out to me a number of
1 serious mistakes in this statement last night, did you
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You informed me, after having this statement
5 read to you, that the reference on page 4 that says
6 that you were a human shield at Merdani is incorrect,
7 and what you had told the investigator from the Office
8 of the Prosecutor was that you had heard the story
9 about human shields but that you personally were not a
10 human shield, is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You also pointed out to me another mistake in
13 this statement, and that is that on the first page in
14 the first full paragraph that refers to the shooting
15 and the murder of your three friends in Busovaca, it
16 says that you were grazed on the side and fell down and
17 in fact that is incorrect, is it not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were grazed -- you actually received some
20 kind of a shock on your head as a result of an
21 explosion while you were at the location of the house
22 where your friends were murdered, is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. HARMON: All right. Mr. President, I have
25 concluded my examination of Witness Z. I would ask to
1 introduce into evidence Prosecutor's Exhibits 249 and
3 MR. HAYMAN: May I enquire if either of those
4 are to be under seal?
5 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Hayman. If we
6 could have Exhibit 249 under seal.
7 MR. HAYMAN: No objection, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. Now we
9 have heard Witness Z very difficult testimony, what you
10 went through, and now we will start cross-examination
11 as I realised. Mr. Hayman has started almost in your
13 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO
14 Q. We are co-counsel, so it is not as important
15 who does what.
16 Witness Z, you said that you were a
17 civilian. Is it correct that you belong to the third
18 platoon, the third company of the Busovaca unit that
19 was under command of Vahid Hajdarevic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It was a company of the Territorial Defence
22 before 33rd Mountaineering Brigade was formed. Could
23 the usher please show the list of the third company and
24 under number 87, would you look it up and please
25 confirm or deny that this is your name and are these
1 the names of the members of your company.
2 Unfortunately we have only one copy of it, but we will
3 ask for it to be copied because we never know what we
4 need really during cross-examination. Please look up
5 this list, are these the members of your company and on
6 page 2, please look up at number 87. We cannot put it
7 on the ELMO because we could not -- would otherwise
8 disclose the identity of the witness. So this is the
9 list of the members of your company and your name.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So were you a civilian when you came to
13 A. A civilian.
14 Q. Is it true that when you arrived at Kaonik
15 you came to the 33rd Brigade that had his headquarters
16 at Kacuni; does it belong to the 6th Mountain Unit?
17 A. No.
18 Q. The 7th Mountain Unit?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know to which corps it belonged to?
21 A. To the III Corps.
22 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I am going to
23 object. I did not go into details about military
24 structure with this witness. This is beyond the scope
25 of examination.
1 JUDGE JORDA: What is your objective,
2 Mr. Nobilo, could you explain that to me? Yes, he said
3 that he was a civilian, you are trying to put him -- to
4 contradict him.
5 MR. NOBILO: I have just ended with that part
6 of my cross-examination. The reason why I asked that
7 was because the witness said that he had been a
8 civilian and as such he was at Kaonik and there were
9 only civilians at Kaonik; I was only trying to prove
10 that he was not a civilian.
11 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the witness also
12 testified he was a member of the Territorial Defence.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Harmon, that means that
14 we are now in direct examination.
15 Mr. Nobilo, please go on.
16 MR. NOBILO: In any case, I have ended with
17 this part of my examination.
18 You come back from your trip and your family
19 is not there. Did you manage to contact your family
20 later on, did you contact your wife by phone, did you
21 have an explanation why they were not at home?
22 A. They went to my parents, I had a baby that
23 was two months old.
24 Q. Where were your parents?
25 A. They were in the neighbouring municipality
1 where I was born.
2 Q. Which municipality was it?
3 A. Fojnica.
4 Q. Those friends of yours who were with you in
5 the house, had their families also gone away? Did they
6 leave their families in their houses and they were with
7 you in that house?
8 A. Some of them left and some of them were
9 there. The children were mostly out.
10 Q. Where were the children?
11 A. Outside, I do not know where they went, I was
12 not there.
13 Q. Did you ask your friend why did all these
14 families leave?
15 A. Because two days before I arrived a young man
16 was killed in the house by the name of Mirsad Delija,
17 so people decided to leave.
18 Q. Did they expect a conflict between the army
19 of BH and the HVO?
20 A. I did not expect it.
21 Q. Did Ivica Vidovic tell you to all go into the
22 house and get together for your own security?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You said that he came into the house when
25 there was an attempted burglary and murder and that
1 there was a neighbour by the name of Josip there.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was that Josip Relata?
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 Q. When you addressed the civilian policeman and
6 you did not tell him what had happened, did you ask
7 from him to put you to Kaonik, to go where the Muslims
8 were for your own safety?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it correct that the military police of the
11 HVO beat up certain HVO members who had stolen things
12 and murdered a person by the name of Ermin?
13 A. Yes, on the last day.
14 Q. So the HVO police had beaten up an HVO
15 soldier because he was violent against a Muslim,
16 because Ermin was a Muslim?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You were talking about human shields. Who
19 exactly told you about human shields?
20 A. Delkic Besim and Delkic Sead, Arnovic Ermin
21 and somebody by the surname of Arnaud whose surname
22 I cannot recall and some others.
23 Q. Were all of them telling the story or just
24 one of them?
25 A. All of them, there was a group of them
1 because they were all with me in the same cell.
2 Q. Where were these people from?
3 A. From Busovaca.
4 Q. Are they still alive?
5 A. Yes, they are.
6 Q. Was anyone killed then?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were either you -- did either you or them
9 report to Aleksovski or anyone else from the prison
10 administration what happened at the front-line?
11 A. I did not, I do not know about them.
12 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President, I have
13 ended my cross-examination. Excuse me, please, this
14 document, the list of the members of the unit, we would
15 like to be admitted into evidence as sealed exhibit.
16 MR. HARMON: We have no objection and we would
17 ask that a copy of that be furnished to the
18 Prosecutor's Office.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I am looking at my
20 colleagues, Judge Riad, do you have any questions,
21 Judge Shahabuddeen? No questions.
22 Witness Z, you have been very brave, you have
23 been through horrible things during that war, the Trial
24 Chamber has heard you, now you can go back to your home
25 and hopefully regain some peace. Please now remain
1 seated while the Trial Chamber goes out.
2 This is our last hearing this session, and
3 now we will distribute to the parties a schedule done
4 by the Registry. You will have all the calculations in
5 there with the explanations. You will realise that we
6 are not in advance. When we have nine or ten calendar
7 days, in fact there are five days -- we have got five
8 days of hearings. There were some incidents, and
9 please try and reconsider and reflect upon all these
10 data, and also see whether during cross-examination
11 maybe you could find some more operational methods.
12 Having said that, for the time being we will
13 stick to the decision, the ruling from 17th December by
14 which the Defence has got a number of days allocated to
15 it; also you, Mr. Prosecutor, have got 34 days left to
16 end the Prosecution case. In case you have no other
17 remarks now, we will adjourn. Tomorrow we have no
18 hearings because of the technical and the plenary
19 sessions. Any comments? The hearing is adjourned.
20 (5.25 pm)
21 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 am
22 on Wednesday, 18th February 1998)