International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

  1. 1 Thursday, 29th January 1998

    2 (10.10 am)

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Registrar, please have the

    4 accused brought in.

    5 (Accused brought in)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning, can everyone hear

    7 me well, the interpreters, everybody? In that case,

    8 can we begin, is the Defence ready, General Blaskic,

    9 the Prosecution, the assistants? Of course, we are

    10 ready too, so it is Mr. Cayley who will continue on

    11 behalf of the Prosecution.

    12 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President,

    13 your Honours, learned counsel. The next witness,

    14 Mr. President, is a witness that wishes to be heard in

    15 closed session. I have spoken with Mr. Nobilo, he is

    16 not in disagreement with this process. It is entirely

    17 within your hands. He has already testified in another

    18 trial in the Tribunal and there are now reasons which

    19 necessitate him wishing to be heard in closed session.

    20 I can go into detail in closed session if you wish.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: In the other testimony, did he

    22 testify in closed session?

    23 MR. CAYLEY: He did not, your Honour, no, but

    24 there are now reasons why he does wish to testify in

    25 closed session.

  2. 1 JUDGE JORDA: The court is in agreement.

    2 Mr. Registrar, please establish a closed session while

    3 Mr. Cayley explains to us the main outlines of the

    4 testimony.

    5 (In closed session)

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    13 Pages 6487 to 6581 redacted - in closed session













  1. 1 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President, the next

    2 witness will be protected with face and pseudonym, but

    3 we can go into public session.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: It is Witness Z?

    5 MR. HARMON: Yes, that is correct,

    6 Mr. President and your Honours. If your Honours please,

    7 I can give you a summary of what Witness Z will testify

    8 about and then identify the parts of the indictment

    9 that relate to his testimony.

    10 Witness Z will take us back to the Busovaca

    11 municipality. Witness Z is a Bosnian Muslim who in

    12 January 1993 resided in Busovaca with his wife and

    13 child. He was a truck driver by profession and was so

    14 employed in January 1993. When he returned to his home

    15 in Busovaca after a long haul of 20 days or so, 20 days

    16 on the road, he found that the situation in fact had

    17 changed considerably. He will testify that his family

    18 had fled, he will testify that he and three other

    19 Muslim men took refuge in a house and within a matter

    20 of days, members of the HVO military police from Vitez,

    21 I say Vitez, entered his house, robbed his companions

    22 and then aimed their weapons at point blank range and

    23 fired upon he and his three companions. His

    24 companions, he will testify, were killed and he

    25 miraculously survived.

  2. 1 After the shooting, Mr. President and

    2 your Honours, he fled, he eventually made his way into

    3 the centre of Busovaca, where he made contact with a

    4 policeman who was a Croat and he asked that policeman

    5 to take him where other Muslims were.

    6 (In open session)

    7 MR. HARMON: The policeman essentially agreed

    8 to do that and then transported Witness Z to the Kaonik

    9 Prison, where Witness Z remained for a considerable

    10 period of time. Witness Z will testify about his

    11 experiences in the Kaonik Prison, he will describe the

    12 conditions there and he will describe his experiences

    13 as a forced labourer at three different locations in

    14 and around Vitez and Busovaca. Ultimately,

    15 Mr. President, he was exchanged. He will testify that

    16 he lost approximately 17 kilograms of weight while he

    17 was in captivity.

    18 Mr. President, the testimony of Witness Z

    19 relates to count 1, persecution, specifically

    20 paragraphs 6, 6.2 through 6.6, and paragraph 7. It

    21 relates to counts 2 to 4, paragraph 8, unlawful attacks

    22 on civilians. It relates to counts 5 through 10, the

    23 wilful killing and serious injury, paragraph 9 of the

    24 indictment. It relates to counts 11 through 13,

    25 plunder of property, paragraph 10. Then it relates to

  3. 1 counts 15 through 20 dealing with the inhumane

    2 treatment of detainees, hostages and human shields.

    3 That concludes my summary, Mr. President and

    4 your Honours.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Any additional

    6 questions? How long did you think that this witness

    7 will be here?

    8 MR. HARMON: One hour, Mr. President.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar, please have the

    10 witness brought in.

    11 (Witness entered court)

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Do you hear me?

    13 I will call you Witness Z, as you are under protective

    14 measures. We would give you a piece of paper with your

    15 first and last name, but please do not say it, simply

    16 confirm that it is your identity. Is this your first

    17 and last name?

    18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: So from now on, we will call

    20 you Witness Z. You have accepted to come to this trial

    21 as a witness, asked by the Prosecutor. This is the

    22 trial of General Blaskic, who is here. Please would

    23 you take the oath, this is a declaration you have to

    24 read, please remain seated and read in your language

    25 the solemn declaration that is given to you.

  4. 1 WITNESS Z (sworn)

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. The Prosecutor gave

    3 us the main outline of your testimony and the events of

    4 which you seem to have been a witness. Now the

    5 Prosecutor will ask you some questions and he will let

    6 you speak, it may be he will lead you. There is no

    7 need for fear, you are here under the protection of the

    8 International Criminal Tribunal and your identity is

    9 protected, your voice is protected. Please, you can

    10 speak without any fear, the Trial Chamber is listening

    11 to you. Mr. Prosecutor?

    12 Examined by MR. HARMON

    13 Q. Thank you.

    14 Good afternoon, Witness Z.

    15 A. Good afternoon.

    16 Q. Witness Z, are you a citizen of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina and are you a Muslim by faith?

    18 A. Yes, I am.

    19 Q. In January 1993, did you live in the town of

    20 Busovaca?

    21 A. Yes, I did.

    22 Q. Were you employed as a truck driver at that

    23 time?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. In January 1993, were you a civilian or were

  5. 1 you a member of the army or the Territorial Defence?

    2 A. I was a member of the Territorial Defence as

    3 a driver.

    4 Q. In January 1993, did you return from Split

    5 after having driven, been on the road for about 20

    6 days?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. You remember the approximate date when you

    9 returned to Busovaca from that long haul, that long

    10 trip?

    11 A. The 25th, the 24th, I do not know exactly.

    12 MR. HARMON: All right. Witness Z, I am going

    13 to ask you to relate the story that you have told me to

    14 the judges, but I am going to divide it into two

    15 parts. I am going to ask you to tell the judges what

    16 happened to you after you returned to Busovaca up to

    17 the point where you arrived at Kaonik Prison, and then

    18 I will ask you some questions. Then I will ask you to

    19 relate to the judges the second part of your story,

    20 that is what happened to you when you were in Kaonik

    21 Prison.

    22 If I could have for the first part of the

    23 witness's testimony Exhibit 249 shown to the witness

    24 and given to counsel and the Trial Chamber?

    25 Mr. President, your Honours and counsel, this

  6. 1 is an exhibit similar to many we have seen in this

    2 trial, it is an enlargement of Exhibit 216, an aerial

    3 image and it contains a legend at the back.

    4 Witness Z, you have had a chance to examine

    5 an aerial image and you have indicated on that image

    6 certain locations, is that correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Very briefly, you will be telling us a

    9 narrative form of testimony but so we could illustrate

    10 your testimony, can you tell us what number 1 is very

    11 briefly, what number 2 is very briefly and what number

    12 3 is on this photograph?

    13 A. Number 1 is my house. Number 2 is the barn

    14 where I spent a night. Number 3 is the police station.

    15 Q. Is the green line that is on the Exhibit 249

    16 the path that you took from your house and ultimately

    17 arrived at the police station at number 3?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 MR. HARMON: Could you please tell the judges

    20 what happened to you after you returned to Busovaca in

    21 January 1993?

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Before the

    23 Witness Z continues, I would like to organise our

    24 work. Maybe before he starts with his statement, we

    25 can have our break, because we have to end today at

  7. 1 5.30 at the very latest. I do not think that we will

    2 be able to hear other witnesses today Mr. Harmon, but we

    3 will see, so we could start again at 4.30 and then

    4 continue for about an hour. In case we will not be

    5 able to start with another witness, this witness will

    6 have to come back in two weeks or more. We will talk

    7 of it later. I think that this is the way we are going

    8 to work, so we will resume at 4.30.

    9 (4.10 pm)

    10 (A short break)

    11 (4.30 pm)

    12 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed, please

    13 bring in the accused.

    14 (Accused brought in)

    15 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.

    16 Witness Z, could you please tell the judges

    17 what happened to you after you returned to Busovaca in

    18 January 1993?

    19 A. After having spent 20 days in Split,

    20 I returned by car to Busovaca, where I was meant to go

    21 on to Zenica and unload food. I returned home as

    22 I always did. I did not find anyone at home. My wife

    23 and a five month old baby had left in the meantime.

    24 I stayed there, I spent the night in my house that

    25 night and the next day I went out to see whether any of

  8. 1 the neighbours were there, and I found Nezrudin, Nusret

    2 Begovic, I had a talk with him and he told me that in

    3 the town of Busovaca, a number of Muslim businesses had

    4 been blown up, cafes, shops and the rest.

    5 I asked who else was around and so I went out

    6 and in an about an hour or less, a policeman came, by

    7 name Ivica Vidovic, and he told me not to leave my

    8 house and if there were any more of us to gather there,

    9 that there would be no problems, just for us to stay

    10 home. Husanovic Fikret was also there, Midhat

    11 Hadzibegovic, Nijaz Neslanovic and I told them to come

    12 to my place, so that we should stay there, and we spent

    13 the whole day there, sitting around and late in the

    14 afternoon, we saw a soldier about 200 metres from my

    15 house talking to Luka Lovric, who was pointing at our

    16 house.

    17 The soldier came to the door. Actually,

    18 before he entered, Fikret Husanovic said that there

    19 should not be any problems because he was his

    20 neighbour, his neighbour Josip. The soldier came in,

    21 he had a pistol in his hand, and probably because of

    22 the surprise, the pistol went off and he fired into the

    23 floor. He was scared himself and he went off

    24 immediately, having said that there would be no

    25 problems. Five or ten minutes later, he came back with

  9. 1 two more men. He entered, he made us sit down and he

    2 started questioning us. While he was questioning us,

    3 another one with a camouflage hat was opening the

    4 cupboards. He started asking Midhat what his name was,

    5 where he came from, and then Nijaz. When he reached

    6 Fikret he said to him, "there is no need to ask you

    7 because I know you".

    8 He asked us whether anyone had searched us

    9 for weapons. We said that Ivica Vidovic had. He said

    10 that he was a commie and what had he to do with it. We

    11 stayed there, then he asked Fikret whether he knew

    12 somebody by the name of Oliver. Fikret said he did,

    13 then he told him that Oliver had been killed. He

    14 asked, "do you know, Fikret, who killed him?". Fikret

    15 said, "I do not". He said, "the Turks", repeating

    16 three or four times, "the Turks killed him". Then he

    17 asked the other two, "what are we going to do with the

    18 balijas, the Turks?". He nodded with his head, telling

    19 them to go outside into the hallway. They went out and

    20 in about a minute or two weapons could be heard.

    21 They entered the house and opened fire on

    22 us. Three of us got killed. I lay there among them

    23 and when they had emptied their weapons, I heard boots

    24 walking out of the house, and through the window or

    25 rather the door of the balcony, I saw a light and a

  10. 1 strong explosion, and I do not remember anything after

    2 that, what exactly happened. They had insignia of the

    3 HVO police here with the word "Vitez", this was the

    4 insignia worn by Ivica, I did not notice what the other

    5 two were wearing. They were armed with rifles.

    6 Afterwards, when I came to, I crawled out

    7 because the others were dead and I went to the barn of

    8 Salih Hodzic. I stayed there until the morning. In

    9 the morning around 7.00, I headed towards the police

    10 station, and I got close to the police when I observed

    11 Slavko Katava, a policeman whom I called and asked him

    12 whether I may approach. He said I could if I was not

    13 armed, so I walked up and he asked me what was wrong.

    14 I asked him to take me where there were other Muslims,

    15 and so he took me to Kaonik where almost all detainees

    16 were Muslims and so I got there.

    17 Q. Witness Z, let me interrupt you there just to

    18 clarify a couple of points about your testimony, the

    19 first part of your testimony. Did these events, the

    20 murder of your friends, occur on 26th January 1993?

    21 A. They did.

    22 Q. Your three friends who were murdered, were

    23 they Muslims?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. One of the men who came into the house and

  11. 1 committed the murders was wearing an HVO military

    2 police badge that had "Vitez" on it; is that correct?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Did the others also identify themselves as

    5 being part of the military police from Vitez?

    6 A. I do not remember.

    7 Q. All right. Were the other people who were

    8 with the man with the badge from the military police in

    9 Vitez, were they wearing camouflage uniforms?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Prior to murdering your friends, did they

    12 take any personal property from you or your friends?

    13 A. They said -- he said that if we had any gold

    14 or money to put it on the table. We did not have

    15 anything, at least that is what we said, except for

    16 Midhat Hadzibegovic, who took off his watch, but it had

    17 an inscription because his father had received it after

    18 50 years of service, so he gave it back to him.

    19 Q. Witness Z, you eventually made your way to

    20 the centre of Busovaca where you said you talked to a

    21 policeman by the name of Katava and he eventually took

    22 you to the HVO military prison in Kaonik. Did you

    23 inform the policeman about the murders that had taken

    24 place the day before?

    25 A. No.

  12. 1 Q. Could you tell the judges why you did not

    2 tell him about the murders?

    3 A. I did not dare, I did not trust anyone any

    4 more.

    5 Q. All right. Now let me pick up your testimony

    6 about Kaonik Prison and before we get to that, I would

    7 like to have Exhibit 250 handed to you and to the

    8 judges. This will relate to the next part of your

    9 testimony. Witness Z, you are going to be in the next

    10 part of your testimony referring to three locations

    11 where the HVO forced you to commit -- to dig trenches

    12 and you have indicated to me and I have then prepared

    13 this exhibit, the locations where you were forced to

    14 dig trenches; is that correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Those areas indicated are Strane, Milavice

    17 and on the far left of Exhibit 250 there is a green

    18 over the word Kovacevac. You will be referring to that

    19 area as Bare in your testimony, is that correct?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. So when you testify digging at a location

    22 known as Bare, that is the location we are talking

    23 about.

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Please, Witness Z, carry on with your

  13. 1 testimony.

    2 A. So once I arrived in Kaonik, the camp,

    3 I found many Muslims there before me and I was

    4 immediately put in a cell in which there was between 15

    5 and 20 of us and that same day, we were called to dig

    6 trenches. They came by car to pick us up and they took

    7 us to Milavice. We spent the day and the night

    8 digging, so half a day and one night. They did not

    9 give us anything to eat, we had to work hard and then

    10 the next day, a replacement came, another group came

    11 and we were taken back to Kaonik.

    12 After a rest of, I do not know, maybe one

    13 day, I went to Kovacevac, to Bare. I was digging there

    14 from the morning until the evening. They brought us

    15 back, I spent the night, and then again I was taken to

    16 Milavice for digging one day, one night and another

    17 day. Digging there in addition to me was Nedzad

    18 Nusretbegovic, Faruk Tulic and some others whose names

    19 I cannot recall, some 20 of us. There was Juzbasic

    20 Saban. We were digging trenches. Saban was about 10

    21 metres behind us digging a trench 2 metres by 1.5

    22 metres. Three HVO soldiers came with masks on their

    23 faces, and they said that the balija had to be shot and

    24 all of us had to be killed, and they forced us into

    25 this hole that Saban had dug. They ordered us to look

  14. 1 down and to fall on our knees. They cocked their

    2 rifles and there was silence, and then Faruk Tulic was

    3 taken out for disobedience, for not bending his head

    4 low enough, and then they kicked him for a while and

    5 threw him back amongst us afterwards.

    6 I later returned and when we set off near the

    7 cafe called, "Jedane Splave", or "The Eleven Blue

    8 Ones", a group was waiting for us and Nedzad

    9 Nusretbegovic was beaten there in the head, he was

    10 kicked in the head and he had concussion from this.

    11 Then after all this, we got back to Kaonik.

    12 Later, after a short rest, they took us to

    13 Strane to dig trenches. I was digging there for about

    14 an hour and with me was a boy of five from Jajce, his

    15 surname was Begic, and he was wounded in the cheek with

    16 a sniper and I was hit in the armpit. Drago, who was

    17 guarding us at the time, the owner of the "Sunce" or

    18 "Sun Cafe", took us for treatment. He treated us and

    19 took us to the infirmary, to the medical centre.

    20 Afterwards we were taken back to Kaonik and I do not

    21 know how but the manager called me to talk to me, asked

    22 me whether I was afraid, whether I was in pain and he

    23 said that I would not be taken to dig trenches or to do

    24 any forced labour until my exchange, so that I was put

    25 in a cell where there were already men who were being

  15. 1 spared forced labour.

    2 That would roughly be what happened until my

    3 exchange.

    4 Q. Do you remember the date of your exchange,

    5 Witness Z, or how many days you spent in captivity?

    6 A. I do not exactly remember the date, but

    7 I spent 12 days in detention and I was exchanged by the

    8 Red Cross.

    9 Q. Did you lose weight as a result of your

    10 captivity?

    11 A. I lost some 17 kilos.

    12 Q. Let me ask you some questions to clarify your

    13 testimony about your stay in the Kaonik camp. First of

    14 all, you said when you arrived you were placed in a

    15 cell with about 15 to 20 other people; were those all

    16 Muslims?

    17 A. Yes, they were.

    18 Q. Were they civilians?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. What were the dimensions of the cell in which

    21 you and the 15 to 20 other Muslims were being detained?

    22 A. 2.5 metres by 3 metres.

    23 Q. The first night you were taken out to dig

    24 trenches, and you were taken to a location in, was it

    25 Milavice?

  16. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. When you got to the location in Milavice

    3 where you were forced to dig trenches, were you

    4 relieving another group of people who had been digging

    5 trenches, and if so how many were there?

    6 A. We relieved another group, there were some

    7 20, 25 people in our group and also when we finished

    8 digging, another group relieved us.

    9 Q. Were the people who were digging trenches in

    10 your group, were they all Muslims and were they all

    11 civilians?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Did it appear to you that the group you had

    14 relieved and later the group that relieved your group

    15 were also civilians?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. The next location where you went to dig

    18 trenches was at the location on the map you have

    19 referred to as Bare. How many civilians were taken

    20 with you to Bare to dig trenches?

    21 A. Some 15 to 20 at the most.

    22 Q. Were those 15 to 20 people all Muslims and

    23 all civilians?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. At Bare, were you also relieved by another

  17. 1 group of forced labourers?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Approximately how many?

    4 A. Also some 20 people.

    5 Q. Did they appear to be civilians as well?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. When you eventually were taken to Milavice

    8 for a second time, how many Muslims were taken to

    9 Milavice with you to dig trenches?

    10 A. Some 20, 22.

    11 Q. While you were at Milavice, were you forced

    12 to shout anything to a front-line position that was

    13 nearby?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Can you tell the judges what you were forced

    16 to shout?

    17 A. "Where are you balijas?", we had to swear at

    18 their mother and then, "come on balijas, what are you

    19 waiting for, we are ready, we are waiting for you",

    20 something like that.

    21 Q. Can you describe to the court very very

    22 briefly what also happened to Saban while he was at the

    23 front-lines at Milavice. I am referring to the incident

    24 where they covered him with dirt.

    25 A. After that thing where it seemed that they

  18. 1 would kill us, shoot us, Saban stayed on. Then they

    2 took him and covered him, put him in earth as if they

    3 were to bury him alive and once they covered him with

    4 earth, not completely, but they started to cover him

    5 with earth, they took him out. He was kicked as well

    6 and then they had to -- they said they had to wash him

    7 and then they brought water and washing him, they

    8 sprayed him with water so as to supposedly give him a

    9 bath.

    10 Q. What was the temperature outside?

    11 A. It was January, minus 15 degrees, so minus 15

    12 degrees.

    13 Q. Were the people who were guarding you at

    14 Milavice and Bare and at Strane HVO soldiers?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. I would like to now turn your attention to

    17 the location of Strane. The translation, at least the

    18 English translation, Witness Z, that I received was

    19 that a 5 year old boy was wounded. Is that correct or

    20 incorrect?

    21 A. Not 5, 15 year old boy.

    22 Q. Okay. At that location, Witness Z, the 15

    23 year old boy was shot; where was he shot?

    24 A. In the cheek, beneath his eye, a bullet

    25 passed there.

  19. 1 Q. Where were you shot?

    2 A. In the armpit.

    3 Q. Later in your testimony, you said that you

    4 went back to the Kaonik military and you met with the

    5 manager of the prison. Who was the manager of the

    6 prison?

    7 A. There was Zlatko Aleksovski later on. I was

    8 brought to him and all the sparing was given by Ivo

    9 Milic, who was a guard. When he took him to his room,

    10 he said, amongst others, you are not going to work and

    11 there was a very large book there, some kind of a

    12 diary. At the back of it, the cover, he said that

    13 I had to be spared from labour.

    14 Q. So he kept some kind of a book, a record of

    15 people who were engaged in labour.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Let me turn your attention to one other

    18 aspect and that is while you were in custody, were you

    19 informed or told by some of your fellow detainees about

    20 human shields being used at Merdani?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Could you identify the people who told you

    23 about being used as human shields and tell the judges

    24 what they told you had occurred?

    25 A. So when they put me in the room where there

  20. 1 were people spared from forced labour, in there was

    2 Sead Delkic and his brother Besim Delkic, Semin was

    3 there also, Arnaud, whose first name I cannot recall,

    4 and he said that while we were digging somewhere, that

    5 they went to Merdani as human shields and they did not

    6 know, there were 15 of them who had been called out,

    7 they gave him a rope, then they tied them in three

    8 groups of five and then put them so tied up on to buses

    9 and they drove them from Kaonik by the old railroad

    10 towards the village of Merdani.

    11 There they put them in three rows and by

    12 loudspeaker, they were calling for surrender and then

    13 they started going on. According to their story, from

    14 Merdani there was fire that came, the shooting started

    15 so they retreated. They were escorted by some kind of

    16 an armed vehicle made of steel which had semi-automatic

    17 rifle on it.

    18 Q. Witness Z, who did they say made them into

    19 forced shields and put them into that dangerous

    20 situation?

    21 A. The HVO soldiers. I do not know. They did

    22 not discuss it.

    23 Q. Let me turn your attention very briefly to a

    24 statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on

    25 23rd February 1995. You pointed out to me a number of

  21. 1 serious mistakes in this statement last night, did you

    2 not?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. You informed me, after having this statement

    5 read to you, that the reference on page 4 that says

    6 that you were a human shield at Merdani is incorrect,

    7 and what you had told the investigator from the Office

    8 of the Prosecutor was that you had heard the story

    9 about human shields but that you personally were not a

    10 human shield, is that correct?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. You also pointed out to me another mistake in

    13 this statement, and that is that on the first page in

    14 the first full paragraph that refers to the shooting

    15 and the murder of your three friends in Busovaca, it

    16 says that you were grazed on the side and fell down and

    17 in fact that is incorrect, is it not?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. You were grazed -- you actually received some

    20 kind of a shock on your head as a result of an

    21 explosion while you were at the location of the house

    22 where your friends were murdered, is that correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 MR. HARMON: All right. Mr. President, I have

    25 concluded my examination of Witness Z. I would ask to

  22. 1 introduce into evidence Prosecutor's Exhibits 249 and

    2 250.

    3 MR. HAYMAN: May I enquire if either of those

    4 are to be under seal?

    5 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Hayman. If we

    6 could have Exhibit 249 under seal.

    7 MR. HAYMAN: No objection, Mr. President.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. Now we

    9 have heard Witness Z very difficult testimony, what you

    10 went through, and now we will start cross-examination

    11 as I realised. Mr. Hayman has started almost in your

    12 stead.

    13 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO

    14 Q. We are co-counsel, so it is not as important

    15 who does what.

    16 Witness Z, you said that you were a

    17 civilian. Is it correct that you belong to the third

    18 platoon, the third company of the Busovaca unit that

    19 was under command of Vahid Hajdarevic?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. It was a company of the Territorial Defence

    22 before 33rd Mountaineering Brigade was formed. Could

    23 the usher please show the list of the third company and

    24 under number 87, would you look it up and please

    25 confirm or deny that this is your name and are these

  23. 1 the names of the members of your company.

    2 Unfortunately we have only one copy of it, but we will

    3 ask for it to be copied because we never know what we

    4 need really during cross-examination. Please look up

    5 this list, are these the members of your company and on

    6 page 2, please look up at number 87. We cannot put it

    7 on the ELMO because we could not -- would otherwise

    8 disclose the identity of the witness. So this is the

    9 list of the members of your company and your name.

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. So were you a civilian when you came to

    12 Kaonik?

    13 A. A civilian.

    14 Q. Is it true that when you arrived at Kaonik

    15 you came to the 33rd Brigade that had his headquarters

    16 at Kacuni; does it belong to the 6th Mountain Unit?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. The 7th Mountain Unit?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Do you know to which corps it belonged to?

    21 A. To the III Corps.

    22 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I am going to

    23 object. I did not go into details about military

    24 structure with this witness. This is beyond the scope

    25 of examination.

  24. 1 JUDGE JORDA: What is your objective,

    2 Mr. Nobilo, could you explain that to me? Yes, he said

    3 that he was a civilian, you are trying to put him -- to

    4 contradict him.

    5 MR. NOBILO: I have just ended with that part

    6 of my cross-examination. The reason why I asked that

    7 was because the witness said that he had been a

    8 civilian and as such he was at Kaonik and there were

    9 only civilians at Kaonik; I was only trying to prove

    10 that he was not a civilian.

    11 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the witness also

    12 testified he was a member of the Territorial Defence.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Harmon, that means that

    14 we are now in direct examination.

    15 Mr. Nobilo, please go on.

    16 MR. NOBILO: In any case, I have ended with

    17 this part of my examination.

    18 You come back from your trip and your family

    19 is not there. Did you manage to contact your family

    20 later on, did you contact your wife by phone, did you

    21 have an explanation why they were not at home?

    22 A. They went to my parents, I had a baby that

    23 was two months old.

    24 Q. Where were your parents?

    25 A. They were in the neighbouring municipality

  25. 1 where I was born.

    2 Q. Which municipality was it?

    3 A. Fojnica.

    4 Q. Those friends of yours who were with you in

    5 the house, had their families also gone away? Did they

    6 leave their families in their houses and they were with

    7 you in that house?

    8 A. Some of them left and some of them were

    9 there. The children were mostly out.

    10 Q. Where were the children?

    11 A. Outside, I do not know where they went, I was

    12 not there.

    13 Q. Did you ask your friend why did all these

    14 families leave?

    15 A. Because two days before I arrived a young man

    16 was killed in the house by the name of Mirsad Delija,

    17 so people decided to leave.

    18 Q. Did they expect a conflict between the army

    19 of BH and the HVO?

    20 A. I did not expect it.

    21 Q. Did Ivica Vidovic tell you to all go into the

    22 house and get together for your own security?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. You said that he came into the house when

    25 there was an attempted burglary and murder and that

  26. 1 there was a neighbour by the name of Josip there.

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Was that Josip Relata?

    4 A. Yes, it was.

    5 Q. When you addressed the civilian policeman and

    6 you did not tell him what had happened, did you ask

    7 from him to put you to Kaonik, to go where the Muslims

    8 were for your own safety?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Is it correct that the military police of the

    11 HVO beat up certain HVO members who had stolen things

    12 and murdered a person by the name of Ermin?

    13 A. Yes, on the last day.

    14 Q. So the HVO police had beaten up an HVO

    15 soldier because he was violent against a Muslim,

    16 because Ermin was a Muslim?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. You were talking about human shields. Who

    19 exactly told you about human shields?

    20 A. Delkic Besim and Delkic Sead, Arnovic Ermin

    21 and somebody by the surname of Arnaud whose surname

    22 I cannot recall and some others.

    23 Q. Were all of them telling the story or just

    24 one of them?

    25 A. All of them, there was a group of them

  27. 1 because they were all with me in the same cell.

    2 Q. Where were these people from?

    3 A. From Busovaca.

    4 Q. Are they still alive?

    5 A. Yes, they are.

    6 Q. Was anyone killed then?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Were either you -- did either you or them

    9 report to Aleksovski or anyone else from the prison

    10 administration what happened at the front-line?

    11 A. I did not, I do not know about them.

    12 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President, I have

    13 ended my cross-examination. Excuse me, please, this

    14 document, the list of the members of the unit, we would

    15 like to be admitted into evidence as sealed exhibit.

    16 MR. HARMON: We have no objection and we would

    17 ask that a copy of that be furnished to the

    18 Prosecutor's Office.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I am looking at my

    20 colleagues, Judge Riad, do you have any questions,

    21 Judge Shahabuddeen? No questions.

    22 Witness Z, you have been very brave, you have

    23 been through horrible things during that war, the Trial

    24 Chamber has heard you, now you can go back to your home

    25 and hopefully regain some peace. Please now remain

  28. 1 seated while the Trial Chamber goes out.

    2 This is our last hearing this session, and

    3 now we will distribute to the parties a schedule done

    4 by the Registry. You will have all the calculations in

    5 there with the explanations. You will realise that we

    6 are not in advance. When we have nine or ten calendar

    7 days, in fact there are five days -- we have got five

    8 days of hearings. There were some incidents, and

    9 please try and reconsider and reflect upon all these

    10 data, and also see whether during cross-examination

    11 maybe you could find some more operational methods.

    12 Having said that, for the time being we will

    13 stick to the decision, the ruling from 17th December by

    14 which the Defence has got a number of days allocated to

    15 it; also you, Mr. Prosecutor, have got 34 days left to

    16 end the Prosecution case. In case you have no other

    17 remarks now, we will adjourn. Tomorrow we have no

    18 hearings because of the technical and the plenary

    19 sessions. Any comments? The hearing is adjourned.

    20 (5.25 pm)

    21 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 am

    22 on Wednesday, 18th February 1998)