Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6680

1 Friday, 20th February 1998

2 (In Open Session)

3 (9.15 am)

4 JUDGE JORDA: Can everyone hear me? Can the

5 interpreters hear me? Are they refreshed and ready to

6 go? Fine. Thank you. We are going to start the

7 hearing. Where did we leave it at yesterday? We are

8 going to finish the week and we are going to work until

9 12.30, at the latest. How many witnesses do you have

10 left?

11 MR. HARMON: After this witness concludes,

12 Mr. President, we have two witnesses remaining and we

13 have one small matter to take up with the court at the

14 conclusion of the testimonies of the three witnesses.

15 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. Well, you may proceed,

16 but first we are going to have Witness BB. Is that

17 right?

18 MR. HARMON: That is correct.

19 JUDGE JORDA: So without further ado, let us

20 have the witness come in.

21 (Witness enters court)

22 JUDGE JORDA: Can you hear me? Witness BB,

23 can you hear me?

24 A. Yes, thank you.

25 JUDGE JORDA: Are you rested?

Page 6681

1 A. Yes, thank you.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Are you ready to go on with

3 your testimony?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Go ahead, then. Mr. Harmon?

6 WITNESS BB (continued)

7 Examined by MR. HARMON (continued)

8 Q. Good morning, Witness BB.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. When we concluded the examination yesterday,

11 you had started to tell the judges about your arrival

12 at the Kaonik prison camp. That was on 15th April

13 1993. First of all, how long did you remain in the

14 Kaonik prison camp from 15th April until what date?

15 A. Until the 19th of June.

16 Q. When you arrived at the Kaonik camp, did you

17 discover that the HVO had arrested all the Muslim men

18 from the village of Jelinak?

19 A. As soon as we reached the camp, we found

20 there some locals from the village of Jelinak. Not all

21 of them, but most of them were there.

22 Q. Can you tell the judges what happened to you

23 and to the others once you arrived at the Kaonik camp?

24 A. As I said yesterday, we were searched. Money

25 and all valuables were seized. The next day the local

Page 6682

1 people from Loncari were brought in. They too were

2 searched, and in the course of the day some drivers

3 were brought over. They used to drive humanitarian aid

4 convoys to Maglaj, Tesanj, Zavidovic, and there were

5 six or seven of them who were temporarily employed in

6 Switzerland, and they were on their way home for

7 a holiday, and an enormous amount of money was taken

8 from them. Something between 30 and 40,000 German

9 marks. They had some gold watches, everything was

10 confiscated.

11 They also took from us our clothing,

12 footwear, so that we were given some torn shoes. When

13 we went to dig trenches, though it was muddy, we had to

14 work like that.

15 Q. Witness BB, were your valuables ever returned

16 to you, the valuables that had been confiscated?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And was it the HVO who took the valuables

19 from you?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. HARMON: Now, I would like to turn your

22 attention to trench-digging, and if I could have the

23 assistance of the usher, presenting to the court, the

24 witness and counsel, Prosecutor's Exhibit 251, and your

25 Honours and counsel, 251 is an exhibit copied from

Page 6683

1 Exhibit 29(c) and it has identified on it nine

2 locations where the witness was forced by the HVO to

3 dig trenches. He will describe each of those locations

4 and the events at each of those locations. Attached

5 behind that is a legend and the legend identifies the

6 locations and the manner in which the witness will

7 identify them throughout his testimony.

8 Now, Witness BB, did you make the marks on

9 Prosecutor's Exhibit 251, the green marks?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Do those green marks represent the

12 approximate locations where you were forced to dig

13 trenches?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review the

16 legend that is attached to Exhibit 251 and compare the

17 numbers and names on the legend to the numbers that are

18 found on the map itself?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And is the legend accurate?

21 A. It is.

22 Q. Okay. Now, Witness BB, you were taken by the

23 HVO to dig trenches at a number of locations. What

24 I would like you to do is tell the judges in your own

25 words about your experiences at each of those

Page 6684

1 locations, and what I would like you to cover in your

2 description and narrative answer is who took you there

3 to dig trenches, who guarded you, when you were digging

4 trenches, whether you were at a front-line in and around

5 combat, how long you stayed there, what the conditions

6 were like, what the food was like, if any, what the

7 communications that you saw were like, and if we could

8 start with the location which is marked on the legend

9 number 1 which is Bare, could you tell the judges about

10 your experiences at Bare. Wait just a minute, please.

11 (Pause).

12 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, Mr. Harmon. Please carry

13 on. This is a light way of putting questions. Try and

14 answer accurately all the questions raised by the

15 Prosecutor.

16 A. When we reached the camp on the second or

17 third day we were taken to the location known as Bare.

18 A man called Sumar, I do not know his real name, they

19 boarded us into a big truck. The make was Ravna. And

20 they drove us to the school, in front of the school at

21 Bare. There they told us they would give us some food,

22 and we were given a loaf of bread and 400 grams of

23 salami to be shared for four or five people. Something

24 like that. I do not remember exactly. And then we

25 were taken in the direction of the village of Rovna or

Page 6685

1 rather Kovacevac which was already burned down and

2 under Croatian control.

3 When we reached our destination, two Croatian

4 soldiers who were taking us there took shelter and

5 suddenly shooting started so we too ran for shelter but

6 they prohibited us from doing that. They said, "do not

7 run, your people will not kill you". That was when Ramo

8 Zlatagic and Salih Sunulpasic were wounded. Ramo in

9 the neck and Salih in the head.

10 The shooting lasted about 10-15 minutes, then

11 it stopped. They took us on further. However, when we

12 got to the exact place from where the fire had come,

13 there was a large group of HVO soldiers there, so my

14 conclusion was that it was they who had fired at us

15 because it was not possible that they had fired at us

16 from where the trenches were being dug.

17 So, we were kept there for a short while,

18 what was -- the trenches that needed to be dug we dug,

19 and then we were transferred to another location also

20 in Bare, but at the other end, on the other side of the

21 village of Rovna. There too we were digging two

22 dug-outs and some trenches. During the digging of

23 a dug-out that I was working on, I noticed a soldier

24 with an HV sign, and when I asked him to give me some

25 water to drink, as I got up, he hit me with his rifle

Page 6686

1 butt on the back and told me to go on digging so

2 I acted as I was told, though it was very hard. But

3 I had no choice.

4 Q. Let me ask you some questions quickly to

5 clarify your experiences at Bare. Did you go to the

6 Bare location on one occasion or more than one

7 occasion?

8 A. I cannot remember exactly. Maybe once or

9 twice.

10 Q. And when you say you went, were you

11 accompanied by other Muslims, and how many were there

12 that went with you to dig trenches?

13 A. When I went, with me were only the

14 inhabitants of the village of Jelinak and only a few

15 from Loncari.

16 Q. Approximately how many Muslims were there

17 that went with you to dig trenches?

18 A. About 30.

19 Q. How old were they?

20 A. Between 18 and 50 or 60. Something like that.

21 Q. And Witness BB, they were all Muslims, is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Now I would like to turn your

25 attention, Witness BB, to the second location marked on

Page 6687

1 the map, and it is identified and the legend is Kula.

2 Could you please tell the judges your experiences

3 trench-digging at Kula?

4 A. When we were being taken to Kula, I do not

5 know exactly how many times we were taken there, but we

6 went there many times to dig trenches. This was the

7 second location we were taken to, that is Kula, and

8 there too there was a lot of digging to do. Our hands

9 were already bleeding from the blisters because we had

10 no protective gloves. The conditions were awful, the

11 food was terribly poor. We would just get a slice of

12 bread, a very thin slice of bread, and just some sort

13 of a soup, but there was nothing in it, really. For me

14 that could not be called soup and in spite of such poor

15 food we had to dig and endure all kinds of insults.

16 The first time we went there, we stayed for

17 a day and a night. The second time, already, we stayed

18 longer. Four to five days we stayed there and we had to

19 dig day and night with very, very small breaks to rest,

20 but that could hardly be called a rest. I hardly had

21 time to look around me before it was time to continue

22 digging again.

23 As I said, we were taken there many times,

24 though in between we were also taken to other

25 locations, but I remember Kula as the place I went to

Page 6688

1 most often.

2 Q. Now, let me ask you, how many people, how

3 many forced labourers went with you to the Kula lines?

4 A. About 30 men, sometimes up to 40, though

5 again, sometimes we would meet the local people from

6 Busovaca there, because when I was brought to the

7 location where I was to dig I found three men from

8 Busovaca there and also people from the village of

9 Skradno. They were also brought there to dig, and were

10 also given such very poor rations, though from -- some

11 people from Skradno were able to take some food with

12 them.

13 Q. Were the people who were forced to dig

14 trenches at Kula, were they Muslims and were they

15 civilians?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, while you were at the Kula location, was

18 that in and around exposed confrontation lines?

19 A. It was actually on the front-line, because the

20 point was to provide trenches for the HVO soldiers for

21 them to dig in so as to be protected from the fire.

22 Q. So the civilian trench-diggers were exposed

23 to fire going in either direction. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, I would like you to tell the judges, if

Page 6689

1 you could, about the time that UNPROFOR came to the

2 Kula region and what happened to you and the other

3 trench diggers.

4 A. I do not exactly know which route we took to

5 go to Kula, but on that occasion we had started digging

6 and the firing broke out suddenly from all sides. At

7 that moment I was lost, so to speak, but I could notice

8 that there were Croatian soldiers who were wounded. We

9 heard the sound of a motor, and when I turned around to

10 the right, away from us, I saw UNPROFOR transporters

11 heading towards the location at Kula. The Croatian

12 soldiers then hid us in a small pine wood, and there we

13 were exposed to even heavier fire. As far as I was able

14 to notice everyone was shooting. Both the Muslims and

15 the Croats, at us, because, of course, the Muslims were

16 firing at the Croatian lines and we were on those

17 lines.

18 Then one of the HVO soldiers told us that the

19 commander at the time, Sefer Halilovic would be coming

20 to inspect the lines, although I did not know him in

21 person, I did not personally see him, but I saw the

22 UNPROFOR transporters and other vehicles. The shooting

23 stopped abruptly. When the UNPROFOR left we stayed on

24 to dig. We were brought back where we had been before.

25 Q. So, you were essentially hidden from view

Page 6690

1 from UNPROFOR while they were at the location of Kula.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Could you now turn to the third

5 location that is marked on the legend, which is

6 Podjele? Could you tell the judges your experience as

7 a trench digger at Podjele? Who took you there, who

8 guarded you, whether it was a combat area, how many

9 people were taken there...


11 A. Regarding the actual location of Podjele,

12 a man were Kotor Varos came to pick us up who was

13 living in the village of Podjele. He selected about 30

14 of us and he took us to the village of Podjele and in

15 the village itself he lined us up, and he ordered us to

16 point -- stretch out our hands, to roll up our sleeves

17 with our palms up. He probably wanted to see whether we

18 still had any valuables left, a ring or a watch or

19 something.

20 After that he ordered us to take out

21 everything we had in our pockets, though we had nothing

22 in our pockets. My trousers did not have any pockets

23 in, so this man, known as Zare, told me to turn out my

24 pockets. I said I did not have any pockets in my

25 trousers, so he repeated the order. He said, "do it or

Page 6691

1 I will kill you". So there was nothing I could do,

2 because he was pointing his gun at me. I heard the

3 shot. At that moment I did not really know what had

4 happened. I was so frightened. I did not know whether

5 I was dead. I know that I fell down. After a couple of

6 minutes, when I heard voices again, I realised I was

7 still alive.

8 All I know is that I could not see anything,

9 because when he fired the shot, the bullet hit the

10 ground between my feet, and there were pebbles on the

11 path, and these pebbles scattered and I think it was

12 also probably fragmentation of the bullet, and I had

13 injuries on my hands and there were small pebbles or

14 maybe even shrapnel over my body and hands, and I know

15 I took out a piece from my lower lip. What it was, I do

16 not know.

17 Then he ordered us to go to a location where

18 we had to dig trenches. This is a location facing the

19 village of Merdani and he said, he told these people

20 that if I moved they should kill me. So one of our men

21 tried to lead me on. I do not know who it was. I just

22 heard him say, "let him go. He can walk alone", so

23 I heard them moving. I managed to hold on to the

24 shoulder of my brother whose voice I recognised. He was

25 in front of me, and I followed him.

Page 6692

1 We were taken from the village to do the

2 digging. He was a house painter, I do not remember his

3 name exactly, and his brother's name was Hrvoje. He

4 used to work with me. They brought us to the spot where

5 we were expected to dig, and then Hrvoje and his

6 brother protected me for a while, because I could not

7 see anything because of the blood, and we did not have

8 any water to wash my wounds. Then I sat there for about

9 fifteen or twenty minutes with my hands -- I managed to

10 wipe away the blood, and then I too joined in the

11 digging.

12 They said, "Well, you do not have to dig

13 yet", but I remembered what Zare had said, because if

14 he were to see that I was sitting there, he would kill

15 me, because I saw that he also had a sniper so he could

16 see me from the village. Again, there were about 30 men

17 there. I do not know the exact number. We did not have

18 a chance to count.

19 Q. Were the 30 men that were taken to dig with

20 you, were they all Muslims and were they all civilians?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was Zare a member of the HVO, and how do you

23 know?

24 A. Yes. He had the insignia of the HVO on his

25 sleeve. As far as I know, they were from Kotor Varos

Page 6693

1 and they were refugees in the village of Podjele, which

2 used to be inhabited by Serbs.

3 Q. And were the people who guarded you while you

4 and your colleagues were digging trenches, were they in

5 the HVO as well? Were they HVO soldiers?

6 A. Could you please repeat the question?

7 Q. Were the people who guarded you while you

8 were digging at Podjele HVO soldiers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you receive any food while you were

11 digging at Podjele on this occasion?

12 A. On that occasion, we were given no food at

13 all. I know this man who was a painter. I do not know

14 his name. He went and he told us that he had stolen

15 some dates, and being so hungry, we could not eat them

16 because it is so sweet. It would only make us sick. At

17 least I did not eat any. Some did, and there was no

18 other food.

19 Later on they gave us just some biscuits

20 packed in a tin of about 5 kilos in weight.

21 Q. When you say, "later on", are you referring

22 to another occasion when you and others went to dig

23 trenches at Podjele?

24 A. Yes. This was another occasion when we went

25 to Podjele again.

Page 6694

1 Q. How many times did you go to Podjele to dig

2 trenches?

3 A. We went three or four times, though once we

4 went as far as the actual road to Podjele, not far from

5 Kaonik where the railway bridge used to be.

6 Q. Witness BB, on all of the occasions when you

7 went to dig trenches at Podjele, were you in the

8 presence or accompanied by a large number of Muslim

9 civilians?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And on each occasion when you went to Podjele

12 were you taken there by the HVO and were you guarded

13 there by the HVO?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when you went to Podjele, your group of

16 30 or so Muslims went to Podjele. When you arrived

17 there did you find other Muslims who were digging

18 trenches?

19 A. No, but once a shift came from the barracks,

20 people who were also imprisoned there, some 30 of them,

21 they came to replace us, but we stayed in the barracks

22 itself three or four hours and then we were brought

23 back to Podjele again. We did not really have

24 replacements, because the people who came to replace us

25 were still there and we had to continue working on

Page 6695

1 another set of trenches.

2 Q. Let me turn now, Witness BB, to location

3 number 4, Carica? Could you tell the judges about your

4 experiences at Carica?

5 A. As far as I know regarding Carica we went to

6 two locations near Carica. I do not know the exact

7 names of the places. At Carica itself they told us to

8 dig some kind of star-shaped trenches. I had never

9 heard of such trenches, and I did not manage to dig

10 one. Then later they said that we should just dig some

11 ordinary trenches.

12 Q. Approximately how many people went with you

13 to Carica?

14 A. Again, the number was more or less the same.

15 Wherever I went, whether other groups went to other

16 locations, I do not know, but I know that with me there

17 were always about 30 people.

18 Q. And were they always Muslim civilians?

19 A. Yes. Yes. Because only the Muslims were

20 detained there.

21 Q. Was the area of Carica an area that was

22 exposed to combat?

23 A. Not really. They were more like provocations

24 there. That was when Fuad, Fikret, known as Hodza, was

25 wounded. He comes from Tesanj. I do not know his exact

Page 6696

1 name, but I know he was called Hodza. They were also

2 brought to the barracks. They were not given any

3 treatment, they were just left in the cell, wounded,

4 they were just dressed with bandages, no disinfectant

5 was used or anything.

6 Q. The other three wounded trench diggers were

7 Muslims again. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, Witness BB, could you turn to the fifth

10 location, marked Strane. Could you tell the judges your

11 experiences at Strane, please?

12 A. Going to the location at Strane, again, up to

13 30 people were taken there, and when we

14 arrived a Muslim was killed who was detained with us.

15 I do not know his name, but I know he came from Tesen.

16 He is a businessman, one could call him that, because

17 he owned two large Mercedes vehicles and there was

18 a wife and four children left when he died. He had

19 quite a bit of land, and his neighbour was detained

20 with us, and with the permission of the Red Cross he

21 transported his dead body, this neighbour of his, to

22 Tesen.

23 At the time there were two dug-outs that we

24 were digging and trenches facing Merdani and the

25 village of Putis. I know that I went there once. I was

Page 6697

1 not taken more often to the village of Strane and as

2 I said, again, they were about 30 people taken there,

3 though if we wanted to mention the exact figure, one of

4 them got killed, so 29 of us returned.

5 Q. While you were at Strane did you see any

6 soldiers with walkie-talkies?

7 A. Yes, I saw one, but I do not know whether he

8 was a commander, possibly, because as far as I know,

9 ordinary privates could not have that equipment.

10 Q. Now, did you also see walkie-talkies at Bare?

11 A. This man, nicknamed Sumar, had

12 a walkie-talkie on him.

13 Q. Now, I would like to turn to location number

14 6, which is marked on the map. In the legend it is

15 marked at Kuber. Could you again tell the judges your

16 experiences at Kuber?

17 A. The actual location was one we were also

18 taken to five or six times, I do not know exactly, but

19 only during the night, and we were brought back before

20 dawn, because there were very fierce combat operations

21 during there at the daytime. The HVO lost some

22 positions so that if we spent one night digging, the

23 next night we would have to move back 100 metres and

24 dig more trenches. We were extremely exhausted, but we

25 had to go on digging, and because they were really

Page 6698

1 angry and fierce. They treated us, I do not know how

2 to describe it, but inhumanely, certainly. They would

3 curse us, insult us. I did not see them hitting anyone,

4 but they did not hit me on that occasion.

5 Q. Next could you turn to your experiences at

6 Loncari? Item number 7 on Prosecutor's Exhibit 251.

7 A. When we were taken to the Loncari location,

8 that was above the village of Loncari, there was

9 a chapel there, a Serb chapel, and I think that that

10 was one of their strongest fortifications. There was

11 one dug-out next to another, and they were all

12 connected by these trenches.

13 We were taken there once or twice. I do not

14 recall.

15 Also, all the ones who were taken there were

16 Muslims, about 30 of us. I do not know who the

17 commander was, because many of them ordered us, that so

18 I do not know who exactly was the commander there.

19 Later on I heard that he was called Sisko. I do not

20 know this person. I just heard this from someone else.

21 Q. Let me ask you, Witness BB, how did you get

22 to Loncari? Were you transported in vehicles or did you

23 walk, you and your fellow trench-diggers?

24 A. We were brought to the village of Loncari in

25 a large vehicle, and at Strane we were just brought to

Page 6699

1 below Strane and then we had to walk up, and -- over to

2 Loncari we were actually driven to the actual location.

3 Q. So when you went to dig trenches at the

4 village of Strane, did you leave Kaonik camp on foot

5 and walk to your trench-digging locations?

6 A. We were taken to the end of the main road,

7 and from there we went on foot.

8 Q. I see. Okay. Could you tell the judges next

9 about location number 8, Kaonik? First of all, tell the

10 judges how you got there, to that trench digging, or

11 that labour location.

12 A. We were taken there and we just needed to

13 work on the bridge, or to pour concrete there. There

14 were six of us there. Because there used to be

15 a railroad track passing through there, while there was

16 still steam engine-propelled trains there, so we were

17 taken there to put concrete... and I could not see

18 UNPROFOR passing through on that road. If they did,

19 they would hide us.

20 So if the UNPROFOR would come in our -- would

21 pass us, we would have to lie down in the vehicle, so

22 that the body of the vehicle would hide us.

23 As I said, we were just fixing the bridge and

24 at one point we just dug some dug-outs next to the

25 bridge. I think they just wanted it there for us,

Page 6700

1 security.

2 Q. Now, Witness BB, how did you get from Kaonik

3 camp to this work location? Did you walk from the camp

4 to the work location? Did you walk along the main road

5 to the work location or were you transported there by

6 vehicle?

7 A. We were taken there in a vehicle.

8 Q. And this work location is right next to the

9 main road that goes to Busovaca. Is that not correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, lastly, I would like you to describe to

12 the judges what you were asked to do at Ravan, which is

13 location number 9. Who took you there, what were you

14 forced to do?

15 A. Yes. This is the last location. There were

16 six or seven of us who were taken there. We dug at

17 a place called Ravan, and these were -- we dug graves,

18 apparently three of them, because apparently three of

19 their soldiers were killed. We did not stay there long,

20 after about three hours we were taken back to the

21 barracks.

22 MR. HARMON: Now, Witness BB, you mentioned

23 that when you were at Kuber on one occasion when an

24 UNPROFOR came you were concealed, and I think you were

25 telling the judges that when you were transported in

Page 6701

1 HVO vehicles to various trench-digging locations, if an

2 UNPROFOR vehicle passed by you and the other trench

3 diggers were asked to duck down so that the UNPROFOR

4 personnel would not see you. Is that correct?

5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, this has been said

6 again and again. I fail to understand. Not only do we

7 come back to previous occasions but you ask the witness

8 to say again what he said perfectly. He told you that

9 every time, so we are not going to come back in detail

10 to every location because there are nine of them.

11 Witness BB said that whenever there was an UNPROFOR

12 convoy driving by they were told to hide. The judges

13 have understood that. Please, do not carry on that way.

14 After all, we are able to understand, Judge

15 Shahabuddeen and myself. We know what the witness said,

16 so whenever, on each of the nine locations, maybe not

17 all of them, but we understand that the UNPROFOR

18 convoys did not go through the nine locations, but we

19 are not going to move ahead in this way because this

20 has been said by the witness.

21 You have, according to your summary, one last

22 item to tackle. This is the meeting with Kordic, so

23 please, Witness BB, can you speak about this meeting

24 with Kordic, otherwise we are going to take the lead.

25 We cannot go on this way.

Page 6702

1 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I be permitted

2 to finish one part of my examination which deals with

3 efforts by the HVO to conceal civilian forced labour,

4 as he has described --

5 JUDGE JORDA: No, we are sufficiently

6 informed on the camps, so please move on to the fourth

7 item of your summary, because I remind you that you

8 announced four items that you were going to deal with

9 with this witness and the witness perfectly dealt with

10 the first three items. Now, if you fear that in the

11 cross-examination questions are raised, well, you have

12 the time thereafter to ask further questions, so I am

13 asking you to deal with the fourth item, the meeting in

14 Kaonik with Dario Kordic so please, Witness BB, please

15 tell us about that meeting. As far as the rest are

16 concerned, we are sufficiently informed.

17 So please, Witness BB, speak about Dario

18 Kordic.

19 A. Well, yes. When I was in the camp we were

20 taken out just to get some air, and then I saw that

21 there was a vehicle, I do not know the make of it, and

22 I saw Dario Kordic there, because I knew him. He used

23 to work with me before the war.

24 When he arrived we were taken back

25 immediately, so that I do not know where he went, and

Page 6703

1 why he came.

2 MR. HARMON: Let me ask you, Witness BB, as

3 a result of your experiences in the Kaonik camp and as

4 a result of being forced to dig trenches and being

5 poorly fed, how much weight did you lose?

6 A. We did not have scales to weigh ourselves,

7 so I would say for sure up to 15 kilograms.

8 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I would now move to

9 introduce Prosecutor's Exhibit 251, the map and the

10 legend into evidence.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Is there any objections from

12 the Defence? And which is the number for this exhibit?

13 MR. HARMON: 251.

14 JUDGE JORDA: 251. That is right. Thank you.

15 Have you finished Mr. Harmon? Thank you very much.

16 Now, turning to Mr. Nobilo, are you going to

17 take the cross-examination? So Witness BB, you are now

18 going to hear the questions asked by the Defence.

19 General Blaskic has two lawyers defending him, and the

20 Prosecutor will be entitled to ask further questions,

21 if there are any items that are raised during

22 cross-examination so please go ahead, Mr. Nobilo.

23 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Witness BB, you described how you came to

Page 6704

1 Kaonik, and that the HVO members were taken away, and

2 especially the people who had come from Switzerland on

3 holiday. Do you know whether this money and gold was

4 just deposited there and was then given back to them,

5 or do you not know?

6 A. Anything that was taken away from prisoners

7 was put on a table, and one soldier collected it all.

8 Q. Do you know whether this was taken, given

9 back or do you know about it?

10 A. From my communications I do not know that

11 anything was given back.

12 Q. What was taken away from you?

13 A. Just a watch. That is all I had on me.

14 Q. You mentioned that a soldier hit you with

15 a rifle butt. Were you otherwise beaten while you were

16 digging trenches?

17 A. No. I only was hit at the Bare location.

18 Q. Other than that there was nothing?

19 A. No, nothing, except in the camp there were

20 beatings and some acts of provocation.

21 Q. So, in your statement on the 26th January

22 1993 which you gave to the police in Zenica, and which

23 you accept as your own, you said, "in my work details

24 there was no physical mistreatment by the members of

25 the HVO"?

Page 6705

1 A. That is not correct.

2 Q. Did you give such a statement to the security

3 forces in Zenica, though?

4 A. As far as I know, yes, I did give a statement

5 but not such a statement, but I know exactly what

6 I said.

7 MR. NOBILO: I would -- may I ask the usher to

8 show the statement which we received from the

9 Prosecution, and the witness had given the statement

10 and signed it. Could the witness please confirm that

11 this is his signature? It is the last page. (Handed).

12 Please, if you could just look if this is

13 your signature.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I would like to tender it in evidence, and

16 later we will provide additional copies, please.

17 A. There could be a mistake in the statement

18 itself.

19 Q. You mentioned the locations where you dug.

20 Could you tell me, on average, how far were the BH Army

21 positioned in relation to the places where you dug?

22 A. I could not tell you in metres exactly, but

23 approximately up to 500 metres, sometimes 1 kilometre

24 even. It depended on the location.

25 Q. But you would agree with the conclusion that

Page 6706

1 on average the BH Army positions were between

2 500 metres and 1 kilometre. Would you agree with that?

3 A. Yes, I agree with that.

4 (10.15 am)

5 Q. At Kuber, you said that the HVO were losing

6 their positions and so you had to dig new trenches

7 again. Could you tell us when this was? Was this in

8 April or May? Could you tell us at least a month?

9 A. I could not say because we were in fear, so

10 I was not really -- I could not remember the dates.

11 Even my name, sometimes, was hard.

12 Q. When you dug trenches, how far above the

13 village were you in Loncari?

14 A. As far as Loncari is concerned, maybe up to

15 100, 200 metres from the last house.

16 Q. So, the front-line was right next to the

17 village?

18 A. Yes, it was right next to it there.

19 Q. When you dug at Strane, how far was the line

20 from the last house at Strane?

21 A. It was the very last house next to the

22 village of Putis.

23 Q. And one last question, did you ever

24 personally see General Blaskic?

25 A. I did not see General Blaskic around there at

Page 6707

1 all. I only saw him on television when we were in

2 a village of Jelinak, and we were watching the Vitez TV

3 and I do not know, it could have been HTV. I know that

4 there was a TV in Busovaca so I personally saw the

5 gentleman there on television.

6 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President, this

7 concludes our examination.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much,

9 Mr. Nobilo. Any further questions, Mr. Harmon?

10 MR. HARMON: No questions.

11 JUDGE JORDA: No questions. Judge

12 Shahabuddeen? I do not have any either. So Witness BB,

13 thank you very much for coming to testify in front of

14 this court, because this reminded you of very painful

15 events. Please do not move right now. We are going to

16 adjourn. We are going to break for some twenty minutes,

17 that is until twenty to eleven, and you can then leave

18 the courtroom being protected.

19 (10.20 am)

20 (Short adjournment)

21 (10.45 am)

22 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor?

23 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, first, in respect

24 of the Defence exhibit that was introduced, a statement

25 of Witness BB, I would ask that that be placed under

Page 6708

1 seal since it has identifying information of the

2 witness.

3 Second of all, Mr. President, I would move to

4 introduce a copy of Witness BB's statement he gave to

5 the OTP in 1997 as an exhibit as well.

6 JUDGE JORDA: What are you asking for?

7 MR. HARMON: A copy of Witness BB's statement

8 that he provided to the Office of the Prosecutor in

9 1997.

10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?

11 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we object because

12 in this statement there are some other facts which

13 were -- to which the witness did not testify today, and

14 we had no opportunity to cross-examine him on this, so

15 in this way, certain facts would enter into evidence

16 without our ever testing their veracity, and without

17 our asking a certain number of questions that would

18 test these facts.

19 JUDGE JORDA: -- can we hold this in

20 abeyance? Otherwise it may reveal the Defence's

21 strategy and this is no urgent matter. By the end of

22 the proceedings, I mean, this could be recorded by the

23 Registry, especially if there are other elements. What

24 do you think, Mr. Prosecutor?

25 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President, I am prepared

Page 6709

1 to submit this without it being accepted, marked for

2 identification only, and we can come back and debate

3 this at a later time.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo? It is marked and

5 identified. There is a problem of identification here.

6 MR. NOBILO: We have no problem with it being

7 marked for identification, but maybe I was a bit -- the

8 interpretation came a bit late so maybe I missed the

9 whole thing, so I do not know what the purpose of this

10 being introduced would be.

11 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to ask

12 a question. This was a statement provided to the Office

13 of the Prosecutor, was it, Mr. Harmon?

14 MR. HARMON: Yes, that is correct,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Therefore, Mr. Nobilo, the

17 Prosecution knows what there is in that statement. I am

18 coming back to your initial objection. First I was

19 convinced and now I am having some doubts. The

20 Prosecution knows what there is in that statement and

21 you are now telling me, "I am objecting because I have

22 used only certain elements and I am going to use other

23 elements later on"? Am I wrong? Maybe I got it wrong.

24 MR. NOBILO: Maybe there was

25 a misunderstanding here. What I had said was that in

Page 6710

1 this statement there are certain parts, there are facts

2 to which the witness did not testify here, and so we

3 were unable to examine the witness on those issues,

4 which is why we object to introducing this statement

5 into evidence, because we have not been given an

6 opportunity to cross-examine the witness on -- and --

7 MR. HAYMAN: I add, Mr. President, by

8 contrast, we offered an exhibit, a 1993 statement of

9 the witness taken literally within days of some of

10 these events, as impeachment because the written signed

11 statement of the witness contradicted his --

12 JUDGE JORDA: Which statements are you

13 talking about?

14 MR. HAYMAN: This is the Defence exhibit.

15 There are two statements, Mr. President; defence

16 exhibit, I believe it is D86 which we offered and to

17 which there was no objection. I believe that is in

18 evidence. That is the statement which the witness

19 signed, stating that there was no mistreatment of

20 prisoners in one or more contexts. This statement,

21 I believe, we only have in BSC, Mr. President. It was

22 provided, I think, recently to us.

23 So that is the reason we offered that

24 statement. There was no objection.

25 Now, after the witness has gone, the

Page 6711

1 Prosecutor is coming in with a different statement to

2 which, as Mr. Nobilo points out, we have not examined

3 and cross-examined the witness as to all the contents

4 of this other statement, let alone why is the other

5 statement relevant. The witness was just here. They

6 could have elicited any facts in that 1997 statement.

7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, the statement you

8 are talking about, which is that? Is that the one

9 I have now in my hand?

10 MR. HARMON: It is another declaration,

11 Mr. President. It is a statement that he gave to the

12 Office of the Prosecutor on 29th July 1997. Now, if

13 I --

14 JUDGE JORDA: But we did not discuss that,

15 did we?

16 MR. HARMON: No, we did not introduce it.

17 What was introduced by the Defence was a statement in

18 Bosnian --

19 JUDGE JORDA: So you did not even ask your

20 own witness as to that statement.

21 MR. HARMON: Yes, I have interrogated him on

22 a variety --

23 JUDGE JORDA: But that statement should have

24 been given to the Defence, pursuant to Rule 66. It

25 should have been for a long time.

Page 6712

1 You have that statement, Mr. Nobilo. I am not

2 talking about the one you have there, I am talking

3 about another statement. Please, enlighten me on this,

4 because the poor civil lawyer that I am, does not

5 understand. This is a situation which is inconceivable.

6 The judges are going to assess the relevance of this

7 testimony only on the basis of what the witness said,

8 and not on the basis of his statement, but this is

9 a major stake for you, so this statement has been

10 communicated to you. You have it, have you not? So let

11 us forget this one because that one has been exchanged.

12 MR. NOBILO: Yes, that is correct. We did

13 receive, yes, we did receive the statement, but the

14 witness was not examined either in the

15 examination-in-chief, nor in cross-examination on those

16 facts, so we had the witness here, and this testimony

17 could have been introduced through the

18 examination-in-chief and then could have been subjected

19 to cross-examination.

20 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to discuss with

21 my colleague for a minute. (Pause).

22 The court turns down the tendering which is

23 challenged by the Defence. As has been explained by the

24 Defence, the witness is gone, and you said, Prosecutor,

25 that you had based your questions on that statement.

Page 6713

1 Let me make a general statement. You know

2 that these proceedings are difficult, not only because

3 they are lengthy, because of the large number of

4 questions that are asked and often repetitive, and the

5 difficulty lies also in the number and in the diversity

6 of statements taken from witnesses, so we come up with

7 problems such as this one. There is an attempt, an

8 impeachment by the Defence on the basis of three or

9 four statements. This is no easy matter so we are not

10 admitting this exhibit for the moment, and let us move

11 on to the next item, Mr. Harmon.

12 MR. HARMON: May I make some comments,

13 Mr. President, just some observations and then I will be

14 happy to move on, or may I reserve those for a later

15 time?

16 JUDGE JORDA: It is not customary to have

17 comments following a decision issued by the judges. The

18 judges have conferred. They have made a decision, and

19 the court is amply informed as to the testimony by

20 Witness BB, and you are very lucky, Mr. Harmon, I am

21 saying this today, and also I will say this to the

22 Defence. You are very lucky, because facing the

23 sufferings endured by the witnesses, given the way they

24 are disturbed, given the time that is asked for them to

25 come here, we should wonder as to the relevance of

Page 6714

1 this. You are very lucky that I, unlike other judges in

2 the Tribunal, do not say, "Well, this is over, Witness,

3 you can leave the courtroom".

4 I believe that we need procedures. We have

5 been able to manage this very well. Yesterday and the

6 day before yesterday, but we have to be simple, so the

7 matter is settled. The decision has been issued, and we

8 have already lost a quarter of an hour in this. On to

9 the next item.

10 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

11 The next witness is a protected witness who has asked

12 for face and pseudonym protection. I can give you

13 a summary very quickly, Mr. President. The witness is

14 a Bosnian Muslim who resided in the Kiseljak

15 municipality.

16 JUDGE JORDA: So how is he going to be

17 called?


19 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. Please proceed.

20 MR. HARMON: Witness CC resided in the

21 village of Polje Visnjica, which is a village different

22 to the Witness AA resided in. It is the village lower

23 than Witness AA's village and closer to the main road.

24 Her testimony will cover four areas. The

25 first is the attack on the village of Polje Visnjica,

Page 6715

1 which commenced on the 18th April 1993. She will

2 describe the results of that attack.

3 Second of all, she will describe the

4 circumstances of the attempted forcible exchange of her

5 daughter by the HVO, and her daughter's wounding, which

6 occurred on the 30th June 1993.

7 Thirdly, she will testify about her expulsion

8 by the HVO from her house, and lastly she will testify

9 about the expulsion of the Muslims who remain in the

10 village of Polje Visnjica thereafter.

11 Her testimony relates to count 1,

12 persecution, which includes paragraph 6.1, 6.3, 6.4

13 through paragraph 7. Counts 2-4, unlawful attacks on

14 civilians and civilian objects, paragraph 8. Counts 11

15 through 13, destruction and plunder of property,

16 paragraph 10. Counts 15 and 16, inhumane treatment of

17 detainees and hostages, paragraphs 13 through 15.

18 Because this witness is a protected witness,

19 Mr. President, Judge Shahabuddeen, I have instructed her

20 during the course of her deposition not to identify by

21 name her relatives, that she will be describing events

22 that occurred to them, and she is, however, as

23 I mentioned yesterday, prepared to do so in a private

24 session if that is required.

25 So with that, Mr. President, I would ask that

Page 6716

1 she be brought in.


3 (The witness entered court)

4 JUDGE JORDA: Can you hear me, Witness CC?

5 A. I do.

6 JUDGE JORDA: You are here welcome, and we

7 are going to call you Witness CC, because the court has

8 ordered some protective measures. First, you are going

9 to identify --

10 A. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE JORDA: You are first going to

12 identify your name without pronouncing it, on that

13 piece of paper. Please read your name but do not

14 pronounce it.

15 Fine. And now you are going to swear the oath

16 on the basis of the paper handed in by the Registrar.

17 WITNESS CC (sworn)

18 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You are going to be

19 asked some questions by the Prosecutor and then you

20 will be free to relate the events as regards the three

21 or four items interesting for the judges.

22 Examined by MR. HARMON.

23 Q. Good morning, Witness CC.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Are you a citizen of Bosnia?

Page 6717

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And are you a Muslim?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In April of 1993 did you live in the Kiseljak

5 municipality in the village of Polje Visnjica?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Prior to the attack on your village, how long

8 had you lived in that particular village?

9 A. I got married in 1968 and I lived there until

10 1993.

11 Q. Was the village of Polje Visnjica a mixed

12 Muslim and Croat village?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. I have asked you to come to this court to

15 testify about four particular areas and I would like to

16 start with the first area, which is having you describe

17 to the judges the attack on your village that occurred

18 on April 18th, and if you would proceed telling the

19 judges about that attack and then we will move to the

20 next area.

21 Please, tell the judges, in a narrative form,

22 about the events that occurred.

23 A. On 18th April 1993 some people were listening

24 to the radio, Radio Kiseljak, and the population was

25 told not to be disturbed because the UNPROFOR would be

Page 6718

1 doing some exercises in Kiseljak. I got up at 6 o'clock

2 on the 18th. I was awoken by strong detonations.

3 I asked my husband whether he knew what was happening.

4 He said he did not.

5 A woman came to see me. She too did not know

6 what was happening. Afterwards two men came by. I asked

7 them what was happening. They were in civilian clothes.

8 They were not armed, and they told us to go to

9 a shelter. We went to a house where there was one

10 storey and we were in the basement in a shelter and we

11 spent two days there.

12 On the third day we were told that we had to

13 surrender, that we should go towards the silo to the

14 checkpoint. One of our men, one of our Muslims carried

15 a white flag on a pole. We followed him to -- in a row,

16 two by two. We reached the barricades. They followed us

17 with their weapons. They cursed our balija mothers and

18 the dzana hidrija, the alesa state. We reached the

19 checkpoint, a big truck with a canvas cover came. It

20 took off our men to the barracks. We stayed behind.

21 Women, children, and some elderly people. They left my

22 husband with me because I asked them to leave him. We

23 spent two nights there in five different houses where

24 we were put up.

25 Kasim Handzic, Serif Cilas, Meho Cilas, Ibro

Page 6719

1 Cilas, all these houses were full of us Muslims who

2 were brought there to the checkpoint. We spent two

3 nights there.

4 We asked whether we could go back to our

5 homes, and while we were at the silo we saw thick

6 smoke, and I saw Rasid Bulic's house and stable on

7 fire. I did not see anything else except the smoke.

8 After that, we asked to go back to our own village and

9 they let us go. We returned to the village. When we got

10 there, our houses had been looted, the doors had been

11 broken, everything had been turned upside down in the

12 houses.

13 Rasid Bulic's house and stable and a cow had

14 been burned. In Omer Drinjak's house the stable and

15 cow, Rasid Drinjak's stable and two cows. Sljivar's

16 stable and a cow. Alija Dzina, a stable and a cow. Said

17 Ahmedic's house, shed and cow, but the cow did not

18 quite burn. She survived.

19 Nasid Handzic's house and stable were burned.

20 Enver Handzic's house. Ismet Handzic's house and

21 stable. Dzemil Karahmet's house and stable. Hasim

22 Sljivar's house and stable. Then further on, near my

23 sister's stable had been burned, and a cow.

24 In one of my relatives' stable and cow, then

25 further on, the Begovic village, everything was

Page 6720

1 torched. Ibro's house and stable, Enver's stable and

2 house.

3 JUDGE JORDA: I think we understand that all

4 the stables were torched. Please carry on. Carry on to

5 the next events, although these were bad enough, but

6 please carry on. So everything was burned down. No

7 need to enumerate all the people whose shed or stables

8 and cows were burned. Please carry on.

9 A. Very well. So we continued living there in

10 the village. There were various provocations. They

11 would come to take our men to dig trenches. They forced

12 my husband, my brother-in-law who managed to get away

13 one night through the woods with his brother.

14 Then there were provocations around my

15 daughter. They were -- they wanted her to get out. Then

16 they wanted to force her to go to Bilalevac to be

17 exchanged.

18 MR. HARMON: Witness CC, let me stop you

19 right there, because we are going to move into another

20 topic I am going to asking you about in a few minutes.

21 Let me clarify some points on your testimony about the

22 attack.

23 When you got to the area, the silos, can you

24 describe the uniforms that you saw being worn by the

25 men who were guarding you and the other civilians?

Page 6721

1 A. The men were wearing camouflage HVO uniforms.

2 They had the insignia and they had rifles. I saw two in

3 black uniforms, and on their cap they had the letter,

4 "U". I only saw two of them like that. There were many

5 soldiers there. All were wearing camouflage uniforms.

6 Q. Now, you gave an incomplete list of the

7 number of people's properties that you saw that were

8 burned. Two questions. One, were they all Muslims, the

9 houses that you described and the ones that you did not

10 testify about, by identifying the owners of those

11 houses? Were they all Muslim houses?

12 A. Yes. All were Muslim houses. All of them were

13 torched. There was not a single Croatian house.

14 Q. Now, when you left your house, surrendered

15 and went to the silos, were the houses that you have

16 identified, not burned? Were they intact?

17 A. When we went to the silos, Rasid Drinjak's

18 house and the others were all intact. Only Ismet

19 Handzic's stable and Dzemil Karahmet's stable were

20 burned. The rest was intact.

21 Q. So two days later when you returned, then

22 those houses that you identified and all the other

23 Muslim houses had been burned down. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes. Yes. Correct.

25 Q. Now, adjacent to the Muslim houses that you

Page 6722

1 have identified that had been burned down were there

2 Croat houses?

3 A. (readcted)

4 (redacted).

5 Q. And were any Croat houses that you could see

6 burned or robbed?

7 A. No. No.

8 Q. Now, while you -- did you remain in the

9 village, after you returned to your house?

10 A. Yes. Yes. I stayed there.

11 Q. Did your husband remain with you?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. While he remained with you was he ever taken

14 by the HVO to go dig trenches?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On how many occasions?

17 A. My husband went perhaps only three times to

18 dig trenches, while we were there.

19 Q. Did the HVO come and collect other people who

20 lived in Polje Visnjica and take them to dig trenches

21 beside your husband?

22 A. Yes. Hasan Karahmet was killed digging

23 trenches. Haris Begovic was wounded digging trenches.

24 Salko Fezic was seriously wounded also digging

25 trenches. That is as much as I know, personally. These

Page 6723

1 were all people were my village.

2 Q. Those are all Muslim people. Is that correct?

3 A. All Muslims.

4 Q. Now I would like to turn to the second event,

5 and that is the attempted forcible transfer of your

6 daughter by the HVO and her wounding that took place on

7 the 30th June 1993. Would you please tell the judges

8 about that event?

9 A. After my son-in-law fled, my daughter stayed

10 at home, and they tried to chase her out, and they gave

11 her four days' time to stay at home, and then Pasko

12 came to bring his father from Bilalac. The first day my

13 daughter refused, then Pasko came again, the next day,

14 to take her. She went to talk to Nikica Pravdic, called

15 Braco, and he told her that she had to go to the

16 Fojnica barricade, and he went with her as well as Ando

17 Palalija and this Pasko who had come there. He went

18 with them.

19 There they wrote down something on a piece of

20 paper, and said that she should contact Bilalovac for

21 an exchange. My daughter came home. She told me about

22 it. Then Marinko Bodula came. What his intentions were,

23 I do not know Marinko Bodula also asked that my

24 daughter should bring the old man from Brestovsko. He

25 came in a blue car. He picked his -- he got his pistol.

Page 6724

1 There was an extremist with him and I must call him an

2 extremist because he fired. He shot at my daughter.

3 Q. Witness CC, before you continue, were these

4 people who came to collect your daughter, were they HVO

5 soldiers, and how do you know that?

6 A. Soldiers. HVO soldiers, camouflage uniform.

7 This one had a rifle, and when I told him that she

8 could not be replaced for the whole of Bilalovac, he

9 took his rifle and shot at her roof, and the tiles

10 started falling on us. Her older daughter --

11 Q. Let me ask you, just to interrupt you very

12 quickly, did she have two small children, that is my

13 first question, and my second question is, did she want

14 to participate in this exchange?

15 A. She had a daughter of four and a half, and

16 a younger one of two and a half, and she did not want

17 to go for such an exchange, because she had small

18 children. The little one was already in bed with

19 a bottle. He cursed and swore at her God and threatened

20 that she had to go. I begged him, "please do not take

21 her. My son got killed last year. I have no more

22 children, only her". He cursed again and said that she

23 had to go or he would slaughter all of us, and then she

24 said, "Well, all right mummy, I will go and I will come

25 back", and then I said, "but I am coming with you". He

Page 6725

1 said, "you can go, but she has to go", and as we were

2 getting into the car my granddaughter was crying

3 saying, "mummy, I want to come with you".

4 My daughter said, "come here, dear. Sit in

5 your mother's lap". We got in and he continued

6 threatening, and this extremist was saying, "we will

7 kill all of you balijas if they beat him over there".

8 I just cried all the time.

9 When we reached a hill, no exchange had been

10 arranged. This was done by force because he did not

11 give her a white flag or anything. There was not any

12 prior notification. He simply let her go between the

13 lines. I asked to go with her, but they would not let

14 me.

15 Marinko Tadic spoke to Marinko Bodula and

16 told him that I should go because I was wearing the

17 Muslim costume. He said, "no". He refused. Then my

18 daughter went off. I stayed there for a while. I heard

19 some shots. There were two shots fired, and a third

20 time there was a burst of fire. I cried and shouted,

21 "my daughter will get killed! I have no more

22 children!", and he said to me that their people would

23 not shoot, that our people would shoot. I said I did

24 not care who was shooting, all I cared about was my

25 child.

Page 6726

1 So, a little later, Marinko Tadic came, who

2 accompanied my daughter up to a point. Then he came

3 back and said something to Marinko Bodula, I watched

4 the glances they exchanged. I saw that something was

5 happening. I said to him, "I am sure my daughter has

6 been killed". He cursed my country, he just said, "she

7 has only been slightly wounded. You see what your

8 people are doing?", and I said to him, "may God punish

9 you. What are you doing to my daughter?".

10 They brought my daughter on a stretcher. She

11 was covered in blood. My granddaughter was watching and

12 crying. I took her away so that she should not watch

13 this, and one of the HVO soldiers picked her up in his

14 arms, so she no longer approached her mother. One of

15 them was giving me a cigarette, and I refused. I said,

16 "God will reward you for what you are doing", and then

17 they took her to a hospital. They first went to

18 Kiseljak, the barracks there. They gave her some kind

19 of treatment, I suppose.

20 I asked them whether I could see her once to

21 kiss her. They let me do it, and she opened her eyes

22 and I saw that she was still alive for a moment. Then

23 they took her to Fojnica, and I did not see her again.

24 MR. HARMON: Witness CC, let me ask you some

25 questions surrounding that particular event.

Page 6727

1 The location where your daughter was taken

2 and from, where she was directed to walk across the

3 front lines, were there soldiers at that location? What

4 kind of soldiers were they and how many of them were

5 there?

6 A. When we got there in front of a house there

7 were several soldiers there. Two of them, maybe, were

8 in civilian clothes. The rest were in uniforms. I do

9 not know them. I could not really recognise them. I was

10 not in my right mind. You can imagine how you feel.

11 Imagine if it was your child. You cannot concentrate.

12 Your brain does not work. So I do not know who they

13 were.

14 Q. Were they HVO soldiers?

15 A. And I do not know how many there were. Yes,

16 they were HVO soldiers because we were in their

17 territory.

18 Q. And then when you referred to the barracks,

19 you are referring to the Kiseljak army barracks where

20 she was taken?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. As a result of the wound is your daughter

23 disabled?

24 A. My daughter is 80 per cent disabled. She had

25 a third of her liver cut off, a third of her lungs,

Page 6728

1 a third of her stomach. She was wounded in the hand,

2 and in the stomach with the cluster bullet. Her whole

3 stomach is covered in wounds. She has no accommodation.

4 (redacted).

5 Q. Now let me turn to the third event in your

6 testimony and that is the expulsion of you from your

7 house in Polje Visnjica which occurred on or about

8 28th August 1993.

9 Could you please tell the judges how you were

10 expelled from your house by the HVO military police?

11 A. One day, after my daughter had left, when she

12 went to the hospital she was captured in Bokovice then

13 she came back. I do not know whether it was after

14 a month. The UNPROFOR took her to her children. We

15 stayed on to live there.

16 Two days later in the evening, some men with

17 stockings over their heads -- I was praying at that

18 moment, I was bending down. They came. One of them took

19 me by the neck and told me to lie down. My husband was

20 sitting to the right. The door of the kitchen was open.

21 I was praying in the corridor. My husband saw what was

22 happening, so when he released me I saw the stockings

23 over their heads and eyes. I screamed. I lost my voice.

24 My husband, another one, took me by the neck.

25 He pointed his pistol at my forehead. He demanded

Page 6729

1 money. I said we did not have any. My husband said,

2 "are you going to kill my wife as well? Please do not

3 kill her", and then this other one said, "lie down",

4 and he pointed his gun at him and so he lay down. I saw

5 that. And then this other one released me. I passed

6 through the kitchen onto the balcony, so I thought if

7 he started shooting I would jump and then I cried out

8 -- Nikica Pravdic, known as Braco, who was responsible

9 for our village, Visnjica, and I called out, "Braco,

10 help, these stockinged people have come demanding money

11 and we have not got any. Come quickly".

12 So I looked, my husband got up. I just asked

13 him with a nod where they were. I did not utter a word,

14 and he nodded to indicate that they had left. I went

15 into the yard, I was crying and screaming, or trying

16 to, because I had no voice.

17 Afterwards, a man called Anto, a refugee from

18 Podlugovi came and he asked me what had happened. He

19 asked me and I told him. Then he stayed a while with us

20 and then he left.

21 After that, they came to my house, the

22 police. They asked my husband, "how many of you are

23 there in this house?". He said, "just me and my wife";

24 "very well", and they left.

25 The next day, again the police came, HVO

Page 6730

1 police. They gave us 15 minutes to take with us some

2 food and to abandon the house. So we said, "okay".

3 I cried. I was standing there with another woman. Then

4 Slavot Miletic came up to me and his wife, and his

5 brother's wife. He was carrying a rifle, pointed at us,

6 but he said, "do not be afraid. They will not kill you.

7 I have got a document to move into your house", and

8 I said, "I am not afraid. You can kill me anyway

9 because I have lost my son. I do not need to live".

10 So he took this paper and said, "if you are

11 going to cry then my tears will reach me but I will not

12 move in, someone else will anyway", so I said, "never

13 mind, I am not crying because of that. Move in". I just

14 asked whether I could use the summer kitchen, and he

15 said, "of course". So my husband and I moved into the

16 summer kitchen. We spent seven days there, maybe eight.

17 And then orders came that all of us Muslims

18 had to go to the village of Rotilj.

19 Q. Let me stop you there Witness CC, and clarify

20 some points in respect of your expulsion from your

21 house.

22 You said that first of all some policemen

23 came and said you had fifteen minutes to move out of

24 your house; were these HVO military policemen?

25 A. Yes. HVO, yes.

Page 6731

1 Q. You said that an individual who you have

2 identified had a piece of paper. Did you take a look at

3 that piece of paper?

4 A. Yes. I said that. No, no, I did not look at

5 it. I was not interested. I told him he could move in.

6 Q. Now, did he represent that that piece of

7 paper was a piece of paper from some authoritative body

8 that permitted him to move into your house and kick you

9 out of your house?

10 A. I suppose. It was given to him. It must have

11 been important for him. I do not know. He was holding

12 it and then he sort of threw it on the table when he

13 saw me crying, but I said, "never mind, you move in".

14 I just asked whether I could use the summer kitchen.

15 Q. Now, what happened to the few remaining

16 Muslims who still continued to reside in your village?

17 Tell the judges what happened in respect of their

18 houses.

19 A. All of us left on the 6th September to the

20 village of Rotilj under pressure. They said we had to

21 leave that village because they did not want to have

22 any Muslims in that village of Visnjica. HVO soldiers

23 came to every house and stuck on a label with the name

24 of the person who was moving in, and we just had to

25 move out.

Page 6732

1 MR. HARMON: Witness CC, wait just a minute,

2 please. (Pause).

3 (11.30)

4 JUDGE JORDA: For technical reasons, as was

5 explained by the Registrar, which I am not very aware

6 of, but there are technical reasons, I think it should

7 be better to have private session.

8 MR. HARMON: No objection.

9 JUDGE JORDA: No objection from the Defence?

10 The Registrar could explain this very quickly. I do not

11 want the decisions made by the judges not to be

12 accounted for.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. We can ensure that the

14 witness is safe if there is a name or a location that

15 could be identified, but technically, we can no longer

16 redact, so to ensure all safety, we are asking for

17 a private session.

18 JUDGE JORDA: Is it no longer possible today?


20 JUDGE JORDA: So okay, we will have the

21 private session.

22 (In Private Session)

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20 (12.00)

21 (Hearing adjourned)