Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8022

1 Wednesday, 29th April, 1998

2 (2.30 pm)

3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated.

4 Please have the accused brought in.

5 (The accused entered court)

6 JUDGE JORDA: I greet the parties and the

7 accused and the interpreters. We are now going to

8 resume with our work with Witness LL who can now also

9 be brought in. Would the usher please have the witness

10 brought in?

11 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President,

12 your Honours, learned counsel. If I could introduce

13 Ms. Alinde Verhaag she is temporarily replacing

14 Emile Van der Does, our case manager, who is absent

15 today.

16 JUDGE JORDA: All right, then we agree this

17 new replacement.

18 (Witness LL entered court)

19 JUDGE JORDA: Witness LL, do you hear me?


21 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated.

22 Are you all rested?

23 A. Yes, I am.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, then let us continue

25 then.

Page 8023

1 Witness LL (continued)

2 Examined by MR. CAYLEY (continued):

3 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good

4 afternoon, Witness LL. If you could continue the

5 account of events that you were giving yesterday from

6 the end of May 1993, when I believe HVO soldiers came

7 to your house in Gromiljak.

8 A. Yesterday I stopped with the incident when an

9 HVO soldier beat me up because of my son's car, when

10 I went to UNPROFOR to make a complaint and when a

11 Canadian officer came there and when we -- several of

12 us, when we lodged a complaint.

13 Since the HVO soldiers had already broken

14 into my house on one occasion, I was frightened, I was

15 too scared to sleep alone in the house and, therefore,

16 before the curfew on the 31st May 1993, I went to sleep

17 at my neighbour's house.

18 On the next morning, that is on 1st June,

19 when I came back home, I saw that the doors were broken

20 and that the house had been robbed and that most of my

21 belongings had been taken away.

22 I managed to learn from my neighbours, who

23 were there in the immediate vicinity and who were

24 watching from their window, that everything had been

25 taken away by my neighbours. So I went to work and

Page 8024

1 after I finished working, I went to the police station

2 in Kiseljak to see the Chief of Police.

3 I told him what had happened and he said that

4 one of their inspectors, an HVO crime inspector, should

5 go over to my house and inspect the scene. So, we took

6 his car and we went back to my house.

7 He inspected everything and made a report.

8 He advised me to repair the locks, which I did the

9 following day. I think that the locks were repaired

10 during the afternoon hours, before the evening, and

11 sometime around the curfew -- or rather after the

12 curfew, a vehicle with HVO plates on it arrived and

13 four HVO soldiers got off the car and they went

14 upstairs.

15 I remained on the ground floor, and since it

16 was forbidden for us Muslims to switch on the lights,

17 I remained behind the curtain and I managed, somehow,

18 in spite of that, to recognise some of them.

19 They started breaking the door and as they

20 were doing that upstairs, around the rooms, I managed

21 to jump out of the window on the back side of the house

22 and I hid in the garden.

23 After that, they went downstairs. They broke

24 down the remaining doors and they started taking our

25 things -- taking furniture out.

Page 8025

1 I remained hidden in the grass and I observed

2 all that, and when I was sure that they had left,

3 I went to my neighbour's house to spend the night

4 there.

5 I went back home on the next morning and

6 I realised that my house had been vandalised and

7 demolished; that eight doors were completely out of

8 their frames and I saw that the tiles in the bathroom

9 were all smashed.

10 During the first robbery they took all my

11 food, so I did not have any food at home. For several

12 days I remained without food, so people from the

13 village brought me some food.

14 After the second robbery, I went to the

15 police station in Kiseljak again and I told the

16 Chief of Police what had happened. However, he did not

17 say anything to that.

18 From there, I went to the HVO barracks.

19 I wanted to find Mr. Ivica Rajic, commander of the HVO,

20 because I wanted to tell him what was happening, but he

21 refused to see me.

22 After that, from the barracks, I went to the

23 Town Hall to see Mr. Jozo Boro, who was the president of

24 the municipality and president of the HVO at the time,

25 so I told him what was happening to me and to other

Page 8026

1 Muslims, but he remained silent. He did make a few

2 notes in his notebook, but he made no comment

3 whatsoever. This is where I saw Vinko Antunovic. He

4 held a very high position within the HVO, so

5 I complained to him as well. However, he left me in

6 the middle of a sentence.

7 So, I returned home and until 5th October,

8 I did not spend a single night in my house. During the

9 day I would spend some time in the house and around the

10 house, after I would come back from work.

11 Every day the local commander would come by,

12 the local commander of the HVO police, Josip Maric. He

13 mistreated us -- he harassed us rather, by ordering his

14 subordinates to fire around our houses during the

15 night, or by simply threatening us, interrogating us as

16 to the whereabouts of our family members. He abused us

17 verbally and this went on every day.

18 He even took part in the looting of some

19 houses. On 21st June, when I came to work, a colleague

20 of mine arrived and she told me that the manager of the

21 institution, of the company, had sent a message to me

22 and a few other Muslims who were still working there,

23 and the message was that we should no longer come to

24 work -- that we no longer needed to come to work

25 because he had received an order from the HVO to expel

Page 8027

1 us. They did not give us any documents about that;

2 they did not give us -- they did not return to us any

3 documentation that we had.

4 So, from 2nd June until 17th July, when I was

5 expelled from my house, HVO soldiers came to my house

6 on 13 occasions. They would bring some Croats with

7 them because they wanted to move them into my house and

8 to expel me.

9 Since the HVO authorities of the municipality

10 of Kiseljak had appointed an official commission which,

11 together with the military police, evicted Muslims from

12 their houses, they told me -- they told us that we

13 should not leave our houses in their absence, that we

14 should wait for them.

15 So, every time they would come to my house to

16 evict me from my house, I always requested that it be

17 an official eviction.

18 On 17th July 1993, in the morning, at about

19 6.30, three HVO soldiers came to my house. They were

20 all armed and were accompanied by three HVO policemen

21 who were also armed. So, they stood in front of my

22 house and the local commander, the person I have

23 already mentioned, Josip Maric, entered my house, and

24 he told me to leave the house because some Croats were

25 supposed to move in.

Page 8028

1 Since I knew him, I kindly asked him not to

2 do that, but he simply started beating me, over my face

3 with his fist and he twisted my arm around my back --

4 behind my back and he thus evicted me from my house.

5 He cursed me, he cursed my Turkish mother and he kept

6 saying to these other HVO soldiers: "Kill her. Throw

7 her into the river, into the creek."

8 After that he left, and when I asked those

9 who remained -- who had remained -- when I asked them

10 where I was supposed to go now, one of them, an HVO

11 soldier came closer and he, too, started hitting me on

12 the head and then he pushed me down and I fell and he

13 started kicking me all over my body, and the others

14 just remained standing. They kept abusing me verbally,

15 swearing and cursing, and after he had finished beating

16 me, he said: "Do not dare come close to your house

17 because there is a huge knife waiting for you there".

18 I had no shoes on, just my stockings and

19 I had very little clothes on, and since I did not know

20 where to go, I went to the UNPROFOR base. This

21 UNPROFOR base had recently been established in

22 Gromiljak and this is where I reported my case, and

23 I wanted to know where I could go.

24 Then an UN official contacted the Kiseljak

25 command, the headquarters in Kiseljak, and they told

Page 8029

1 him that I should remain with the UNPROFOR in the

2 vicinity of the base and that they would come as soon

3 as possible and take care of me and try to resolve my

4 situation.

5 After a few hours, Captain Craig Carrington

6 arrived together with the chief of the HVO police. So

7 we started talking. Since the Chief of Police used to

8 live in Gromiljak, we knew each other and I asked him

9 if they had any further plans with me. So, he offered

10 me his house.

11 At that time, his house was empty because his

12 family was in Split, but I did not accept it and

13 I wanted him to get me back to my house. But he said

14 it was impossible, because some Croats were supposed to

15 live in my house. Then he offered me to Muslim houses

16 and these houses were earmarked as some kind of

17 collective accommodation for the displaced Muslims and

18 I agreed to go to one of them, provided that they send

19 me a certificate -- that they actually sent a

20 certificate to the owner of the house and to the

21 commander of the HVO, Maric, whereby they would ensure

22 that we would not be harassed or evicted from that

23 house.

24 He promised to do that and, on the next day,

25 he did, indeed, send such a certificate.

Page 8030

1 Mr. Craig Carrington gave me his card -- I have it

2 here -- and he told me that, should I have any

3 problems that I can always look for him -- look him

4 up. So I moved to that house and I spent there

5 two and-a-half months. That house was in the immediate

6 vicinity of my house, so I could watch those Croats who

7 were unknown to me every day. I could watch them

8 living in my house, enjoying my house, which was, of

9 course, very difficult for me.

10 Mr. Maric kept coming on a daily basis and he

11 ordered us that we do not go into the backyard, that we

12 were under house arrest and that we were going to be

13 sent to a camp.

14 On four or five occasions, the HVO soldiers

15 came in a van and told to everybody in the house to get

16 ready within five minutes, that they would take us to

17 the Rotilj camp. And then, a few minutes later,

18 somebody else would show up and they would say: "Go

19 back into the house, you are not going to go to the

20 camp today".

21 This went on until 5th October 1993, when

22 I was exchanged and transferred to the free territory.

23 That is all.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Witness LL. I think

25 that the Prosecutor has a few clarifications or a few

Page 8031

1 questions he would like to put to you. Please

2 continue.

3 MR. CAYLEY: Please, Mr. President.

4 Witness LL, was there a mosque in the village

5 of Gromiljak?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you aware of what happened to that

8 mosque?

9 A. Yes. After a while, after the HVO attack,

10 after the mosque had been looted, it was set on fire,

11 but since there was a Croat house nearby, the Croats

12 put out the fire and then, in February of 1994, after

13 the Washington Agreement was signed, the mosque was

14 completely blown up and the other mosques in other

15 surrounding villages were all destroyed after the

16 Washington Agreement. Some had been destroyed before,

17 but after the Washington Agreement they were blown up

18 and not a single one remained. And people would find

19 copies of Koran and other religious objects from these

20 mosques strewn around, sometimes thrown into the creek,

21 and so forth.

22 Q. Witness LL, am I right in saying that the HVO

23 set the mosque on fire after the attack in April of

24 1993?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8032

1 Q. Now, you mentioned in your testimony the fate

2 of an elderly couple who lived in the village, an

3 80 year old couple. Can you explain to the court what

4 happened to their house and what the HVO did to them?

5 A. Yes. On 18th April 1993, after those

6 explosions were heard first, the houses in Visnjica

7 were set on fire and then later on there was this

8 elderly couple, Imamovic. They were retirees, they had

9 no sons, they had no males in the house and they lived

10 alone, so they set their house on fire first and we saw

11 the flames coming up and across from their house. The

12 HVO soldiers knocked on Halid Begovic's house, his son

13 opened up, he asked what they wanted, they shot at

14 him. His father stepped out to protect him. He was

15 hit in the back and then the HVO soldiers left and the

16 two of them managed somehow to go into the basement.

17 They had a store down there and they managed to hide

18 behind some goods there.

19 And then they -- the HVO set their house on

20 fire later on, but they managed to crawl out and save

21 themselves. Below there, there was another house which

22 was also set on fire twice and it finally burned down,

23 and during the time when these houses in Gomjanica were

24 being set on fire, we would count them, and every night

25 we would count 10 to 12 houses on fire. First, they

Page 8033

1 would loot them. We saw the HVO soldiers driving away

2 goods on trucks, so they first looted them, then they

3 set them on fire. The population managed to flee to

4 the hills and then, across the hills, they managed to

5 escape to Visoko. Some of the people were killed there

6 as well.

7 Q. Witness LL, you said that on 31st May of 1993

8 your house was looted by your neighbours. Were you

9 referring to your neighbours who were in the HVO?

10 A. Yes. Yes. They were all wearing uniforms

11 and they all carried weapons. And whatever was done

12 was done by the neighbours, not by unknown persons,

13 I know all these peoples' first and last names and, if

14 needed, I can name them all.

15 I asked one of them: "How long is this going

16 to go on?", and he said: "Until we have killed all the

17 Muslims in Kiseljak."

18 They said they were given a free reign to do

19 whatever they wanted to us without answering for that

20 to anyone. These were their words.

21 Q. You recall earlier I showed you a video clip

22 in which you identified a man who beat you at your

23 house before you were evicted; do you recall that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If that clip could be shown now, please? It

Page 8034

1 is part of Exhibit 260. If, Witness LL, you could

2 identify to the court the man who beat you? We will

3 play it a number of times, if necessary. If that clip

4 could be played, please?

5 (Video clip played).

6 MR. CAYLEY: Can you see it on the TV screen

7 in front of you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Which is the man that beat you?

10 A. He is the covered -- this man.

11 (Indicating). Josip Maric. This one here.

12 Q. Can we play it again, please? Could you

13 describe the position of this man, because the judges

14 cannot see what you are pointing at? Is it the man

15 with the silver hair on the far right-hand corner of

16 the screen?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Next to the flagpole?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what is his name again?

21 A. Josip Maric.

22 Q. And this is the man who beat you at your

23 house?

24 A. Yes, he is.

25 JUDGE JORDA: On the left, Mr. Prosecutor?

Page 8035

1 MR. CAYLEY: We can play it again,

2 Mr. President.

3 JUDGE JORDA: I want to be clear who it is

4 who you are talking about. You talked about a silver

5 haired person, both of them are wearing hats.

6 MR. CAYLEY: It is the man in the distance.

7 JUDGE JORDA: I see, okay.

8 MR. CAYLEY: I will indicate to you,

9 Mr. President. You see the gentleman with the white

10 hair to the right of the flagpole?

11 JUDGE JORDA: To the very right, yes, I see.

12 MR. CAYLEY: Is that correct, Witness LL?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

15 A. And he did not beat only me, he beat some

16 other women as well.

17 (Video clip continued)

18 MR. CAYLEY: That is fine, thank you.

19 Finally, if the witness could be shown

20 Exhibit 313. (Handed).

21 I will wait for you to get your spectacles

22 out. Witness LL, just to give the judges a

23 geographical reference, is that the location of your

24 village which is ringed in a black circle on this map

25 in front of you?

Page 8036

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. CAYLEY: I have no further questions of

3 the witness, Mr. President. If the two exhibits could

4 be admitted into evidence, Exhibit 313, which is the

5 map, and Exhibit 314, which is the clip from

6 Exhibit 260.

7 THE REGISTRAR: So 260 is already admitted,

8 although it was admitted with some objections, so now

9 this is only an excerpt, I do not think we need to give

10 it any number.

11 MR. CAYLEY: My colleague has just suggested,

12 Mr. President, that we label it Exhibit 260A -- 260B.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I share the opinion of the

14 Office of the Prosecutor because, Mr. Registrar, we need

15 to be able to refer to this particular exhibit,

16 otherwise we will have to go back to the transcript to

17 find out whether or not this was targeted as an actual

18 exhibit. So let us, then, go not back to the previous

19 number, but this number as it corresponds to the clip

20 shown to this witness.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Very yes, very well. In this

22 case, let us give it the letter "B", because a document

23 has already been presented before another witness.

24 JUDGE JORDA: I do not know, do what is

25 necessary. The problem is that we must have a clear

Page 8037

1 reference and that this be annexed to the testimony

2 given by Witness LL. Without further delay, excuse it,

3 Witness LL, there are no other observations,

4 Mr. Cayley?

5 MR. CAYLEY: I have no other observations,

6 Mr. President, no.

7 JUDGE JORDA: You should understand that now

8 we are going to give the floor to the Defence for

9 General Blaskic and it is now the Defence counsel that

10 is going to now put to you a number of questions,

11 Mr. Nobilo, perhaps.

12 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO:

13 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Good afternoon Witness LL.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. As you heard, I would like to ask you a few

17 questions.

18 In the beginning of your testimony, you spoke

19 about some kind of growing distance or start of maybe

20 hatred between the Croats and Muslims, and you

21 mentioned that there were some educated people who were

22 spreading these feelings.

23 Can you tell us; when did this start? When

24 did this process of separation between the Croats and

25 the Muslims start?

Page 8038

1 A. Right after the elections of 1991.

2 Q. As the time went on, were these just

3 exceptions, as you pointed out, just the more educated

4 people engaged in this, or did it spread towards the

5 general population?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you say that a larger number of Croats,

8 or most of the Croats, expressed these views against

9 the Muslims?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What do you mean? A largest number?

12 A. Yes, even children.

13 Q. Were there those who tried to keep the old

14 kind of relationships?

15 A. Those who tried to keep the old type of

16 relationships complained to us that they were under

17 pressure from the HVO to not communicate with us. So

18 they apologised to us, those with whom we socialised

19 more. They just said that they did not dare.

20 Q. According to you, these were in the minority,

21 such people?

22 A. I heard from a lot of people that this was a

23 general attitude.

24 Q. Now, let me ask you this: did this attitude

25 then produce a certain reaction, apart of the Muslims

Page 8039

1 that were --

2 A. Yes, we wanted to keep the old relationships

3 because, traditionally, we had very good relations

4 between Croats and Muslims and you know that there was

5 even a coalition, the flags of the HVO and the SDA were

6 sort of joined, so nobody really expected this to

7 happen.

8 Q. You said that business premises were

9 destroyed. Can you place it in time? What time was

10 this?

11 A. This was in 1992, in the beginning, in early

12 1992.

13 Q. So the first half of 1992?

14 A. Yes, yes and it escalated when the Serbs

15 attacked, when the war in Bosnia broke out.

16 Q. Did you see an act of destruction of any of

17 these business premises?

18 A. I was not an eye-witness to any of those, but

19 I saw the result of it shortly thereafter, and everyone

20 talked about it. As I mentioned yesterday, I saw a

21 shoe shop owned by a man, and it was a very nice shop

22 with very expensive Italian shoes. It had metal bars

23 in the window and the HVO soldiers brought a tractor;

24 they fixed a chain to it, they pulled it out, they

25 broke the window and the Croatian population stormed

Page 8040

1 the shoe shop and took away all the shoes. I arrived

2 shortly thereafter and I saw the whole place ransacked

3 and all the -- all glass was smashed, et cetera. There

4 were even jokes being made how certain women changed

5 the shoe size because the original ones did not fit.

6 Q. About the HVO soldiers pulling out the bars,

7 did you see that or did you hear about it?

8 A. I did not see it.

9 Q. So you heard about it?

10 A. Yes, I only heard about it from others.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, you are speaking

12 quite quickly, please think about the interpreters.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. NOBILO: Very well.

15 Apart from this case, in other cases, those

16 who told you about what happened, were those people

17 eye-witnesses to, let us say, break-ins, or they too

18 heard it from someone else yet?

19 A. Everybody talked about it, it was biggest

20 topic of the day. It was not just the shoe shop, it

21 was also the butcher's shop, there was also a cafe

22 owned by a Muslim and another store. They looted the

23 merchandise there and people saw that and this was what

24 was discussed among the Muslims.

25 Q. But, can you tell me: did you personally hear

Page 8041

1 this from an eye-witness or from someone who had

2 already heard about it from someone else?

3 A. I am not sure about that any more because

4 this was a long time ago, but the fact is that this

5 took place.

6 Q. Can you tell me something about Merhamet? It

7 was a warehouse, right of the relief organisation, it

8 was set on fire, you told us and you heard this was

9 done by the HVO soldiers. That is what you said.

10 I have a similar question for you: did you hear that

11 from a person who was an eye-witness to it or from

12 someone who also heard it from someone else?

13 A. At that time, I was at work and I was in the

14 backyard of the company where I was working, or the

15 institution where I was working, and then there was

16 some fire there, some people had been injured and they

17 were brought in the vicinity of where I could see

18 them. Then they were that the building organisation

19 where Merhamet was, they said it was destroyed but

20 there were also problems with Merhamet. There were

21 often times when these merchandise was coming in. It

22 was often looted and we got very few things while the

23 Croats were getting many more things, that we only got

24 very basic things, barely enough to survive.

25 Q. So, these injured persons who told you about

Page 8042

1 this, did they tell you that they knew who set these

2 explosives there?

3 A. They said that this was the HVO soldiers who

4 set the explosives there.

5 Because the Muslims already had restricted

6 movements. The Muslim men were mostly in the barracks,

7 they were sent to dig trenches, they could not move

8 around town freely.

9 Q. But this explosion was before 18th April

10 1993?

11 A. No, it was after.

12 Q. Let us move to 18th April 1993. You said

13 that the commander of the village, Velimir Milicevic,

14 requested that all Muslims should gather at

15 eight o'clock in one of their neighbour's houses?

16 A. In the basement, yes.

17 Q. Yes, in the basement. Was that in order for

18 them to be protected from the shelling?

19 A. No, because the men who came to inform us

20 about that, he said that if you do not show up, you

21 will all be arrested. If you intend to protect

22 someone, you do not threaten him.

23 Q. Very well. Madam, you gave a statement

24 previously to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal.

25 On page 2 of the statement, the beginning of

Page 8043

1 paragraph 2, you stated the following:

2 "In the afternoon of 18th April 1993, a

3 Croat came to my house and informed me that his

4 commander, Velimir Milicevic, wanted all the Muslims to

5 come to the house of a Croat neighbour named

6 Jozo Biletic at 6.00 pm, so that we would be protected

7 from the shelling."

8 Did you state this?

9 A. Yes, I did. A woman who was present there at

10 the house, he asked why we had to go to the basement

11 and this is what he said. However, later on he said

12 that if we failed to appear on our own will that they

13 would come to arrest us. Then it was perfectly clear

14 for me what he really meant. If you want to protect

15 someone, you are not going to arrest him.

16 Q. Was there any shelling at that time of the

17 village?

18 A. Yes, there was.

19 Q. The incident you told us about when your dog

20 was killed and when they planned to steal your son's

21 car, were these people your neighbours?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know their names?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Did you have any quarrels with them?

Page 8044

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. There were guards in your village during the

3 night, HVO guards, there was also curfew?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was this all in order to protect you from the

6 incursions of criminals?

7 A. No, it was not.

8 Q. Why did they have guards, then?

9 A. To prevent us from fleeing.

10 Q. Did they have any guards during the day?

11 A. No, they did not.

12 Q. Could you move around freely during the day,

13 could you go to work?

14 A. Yes, I could. Only 15 days later.

15 Q. During the time while you were prevented from

16 moving around freely, were there any military

17 operations going on at that time, during the first week

18 following 18th April 1993? Was there any fighting

19 going on in the surrounding villages? Could you hear

20 the shooting?

21 A. Yes, we could hear the shooting but there

22 were no -- there was no fighting going on, because in

23 order to fight you need to have two parties. It was

24 not an ordinary war. The BiH Army was not there. They

25 had no-one to fight. They knew very well that they --

Page 8045

1 that Muslims had no weapons and that is why they

2 attacked the village. They knew very well at the time

3 where the BiH soldiers were deployed. At that time,

4 the BiH soldiers were in the area of Koscan and

5 Kralupi, they were holding lines against Serbs and they

6 knew perfectly well that we had no-one to protect us.

7 Because, on 17th April, on the eve of the attack

8 against Muslims, Kiseljak Radio informed their

9 population, their residents, they told them that they

10 should stay calm if they heard some shooting on the

11 next day because UNPROFOR was supposed to have some

12 kind of exercise.

13 So they carried out an attack and the attack

14 was followed by ethnic cleansing and evictions. After

15 that, it was forbidden for all of us to move around

16 freely.

17 Q. Did you hear this personally, did you hear

18 what was announced over the radio?

19 A. No, I did not hear that personally. Some

20 other people did.

21 Q. But even if you have shooting coming from

22 only one side, how long did it last, for how many days?

23 A. Well, at the beginning, it lasted for a

24 couple of days, but since nobody returned fire, since

25 there was no-one there, no-one to counterattack, they

Page 8046

1 set about burning houses. So lots of houses were on

2 fire at that time. We could count them every evening.

3 There were about 10 or 12 houses on fire and then, on

4 the first -- when the HVO forces were perfectly sure

5 that there would be no reaction or response, they

6 attacked the village. They tried to --

7 Q. Were you present there when it happened?

8 A. I went home from work and I was stopped at

9 the barricade and around 2.00 pm, the shelling of the

10 village started and lots of people were killed. And

11 from that day on, HVO soldiers had the village of

12 Gomionica under their control and they hoisted a huge

13 flag on the hill above the village. You could see this

14 Croatian flag from distance.

15 Q. Can we then sum-up: for how many days could

16 you hear the shooting after 18th April?

17 A. Well, I did not count the days, but it was --

18 it lasted for a couple of days.

19 Q. When you saw that man in your son's car, was

20 that a neighbour of yours?

21 A. Well, he did not live in the immediate

22 vicinity of my house, but he comes from the same area

23 and I used to know him. He was an HVO soldier, I knew

24 him by name and maybe two or three days before that

25 I even spoke to him in one of my neighbour's houses, so

Page 8047

1 when I told Commander Maric that that man had taken my

2 son's car, Maric told me that it was he, himself, who

3 gave him permission to do that and he said that not a

4 single Muslim could have -- could own a car any more,

5 so everything was taken away from us. Nobody had

6 anything, not a single vehicle, car or tractor.

7 Q. Is this man from the same village as you are,

8 this man who took your son's car?

9 A. No, he is not from the same village, he is

10 from a neighbouring village.

11 Q. Is it true that after the 18th April 1993,

12 that Muslim men had to report twice a day in the

13 morning and in the evening at the Gromiljak police

14 station so that they would not escape?

15 A. Yes, yes, I know that for sure because my

16 family members also had to do that.

17 Q. There are two men -- two males -- in your

18 family? I am not going to mention their names.

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Did they flee to the territory under the BiH

21 control?

22 A. Yes, they did.

23 Q. When was that?

24 A. After the attack of the 18th.

25 Q. When you went to see the Chief of Police,

Page 8048

1 when you first reported what had happened in your

2 house, did you sign any report or a statement? Did you

3 sign anything that was in written form?

4 A. Detective Vukoja, who carried out an on-site

5 investigation of the break-in of my house, he made the

6 report of that and he told me that I should come to the

7 police station to sign it.

8 However, when I came to the police station,

9 one policeman would not let me in, this policeman's

10 name was Rade Rebuz.

11 Q. You said that four HVO soldiers, on the night

12 when you hid in the garden, that four HVO soldiers came

13 to your house and demolished the interior of your

14 house?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were they your neighbours?

17 A. Yes, they were.

18 Q. Did you know them personally?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Were you on good terms with them or did you

21 have any problems with them?

22 A. I did not have any problems with anyone.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me, I am sorry. Would

24 you please turn towards the judges when you respond to

25 the questions?

Page 8049

1 A. I apologise, I will.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. You can

3 turn to listen to the question, turn your head towards

4 the Defence, of course that is required. When you

5 answer, please turn towards the judges, thank you.

6 Please continue.

7 MR. NOBILO: When the manager of your company

8 told you that you should leave your work, you said that

9 he had received an order from the HVO. Did he give you

10 any names; the names of persons in authority?

11 A. No, he did not mention any names. He did not

12 tell us that himself, he simply sent a colleague of

13 ours who then told us that the manager had received an

14 order from HVO authorities, that we should no longer

15 come to work because they no longer needed us.

16 So, my group was among the last ones that

17 left the company. It happened on 21st June and they no

18 longer called us, they did not give us any release

19 documents or anything. But this is what was told, that

20 we should leave work.

21 Q. But, when he said HVO authorities, how did

22 you understand that? Was that the local government of

23 Kiseljak?

24 A. Yes, it was the local government of Kiseljak

25 and the President of the HVO was Jozo Boro, he was the

Page 8050

1 first man, the most important person as far as civilian

2 authorities are concerned, as far as I know it was

3 Mr. Rajic who was the military leader in the area.

4 Q. You said there was a commission for

5 evictions?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know the exact title of that

8 commission?

9 A. Well, for me its title was "the Commission

10 for Evictions". It had several members. There was one

11 person who used to work in the Forestry, one other

12 person who used to work in the Land Survey Department

13 and a third person who was the owner of a shop. So

14 they used to go round in a police vehicle; they had

15 some forms with them, so whenever they would evict us

16 Muslims, they would give us some kind of written

17 decisions, some kind of paper.

18 Q. How did they call themselves, do you know?

19 A. No, I do not know. However, this commission

20 was under the authority of the municipality. There was

21 no private initiative in that regard. I know that for

22 sure.

23 Q. Could you tell me who it was that moved into

24 your house?

25 A. Yes. People from the municipality of

Page 8051

1 Fojnica, then Majic and Bosniak families. Two families

2 moved into my house, one family used to live downstairs

3 and the other one upstairs. I do not know whether

4 I should say this, but these people very primitive.

5 I could see that from the way they treated me, the way

6 they abused me verbally and so on.

7 Q. You do not have to give us their names for

8 your own protection, but could you tell us how come

9 that they had come from Fojnica to live in your

10 village?

11 A. I believe that they were evacuated from their

12 village because apparently they were scared, they were

13 being threatened by some Mujehadeens, so they took

14 advantage of that. These young people did not want to

15 go to war and apparently that is why they fled. That

16 is what they told us, these people from Fojnica.

17 Q. These people from Fojnica, were they Croats?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell us the name of the

20 Chief of Police, it was a public office, it is not

21 going to reveal your identity. Could you then tell us

22 his name?

23 A. It was a person by the name

24 Velimir Milicevic.

25 Q. What exactly did he tell you, why was he not

Page 8052

1 able to return you to your house, because he obviously

2 liked you, he wanted to do something for you?

3 A. I do not think you are right. His house was

4 just across the headquarters and Josip Maric was there,

5 the person who beat me, so I was a perfect target for

6 them, and he said that I could go to his house because

7 he was embarrassed because of the presence of

8 Mr. Craig Carrington, who heard it all. I first talked

9 to Velimir Milicevic in our language and when the

10 interpreter tried to interpret, I interfered and

11 I managed with my English to tell Mr. Carrington what

12 had happened and Mr. Velimir Milicevic was shocked

13 because he did not expect me to be able to communicate

14 in English. So that is why he offered me his house,

15 but I refused it because I would have been a perfect

16 target for his policemen.

17 Then I did not want to go to his house

18 because I had a house of my own, but then he said

19 I could not go back to my house because how some Croats

20 were supposed to live there.

21 Q. Was he specific? Did he say which Croats

22 from which town?

23 A. No, he did not say anything.

24 Q. You said that the mosque had been set on

25 fire. Did you know who had set it on fire?

Page 8053

1 A. No, I did not, but I can claim -- I am sure

2 that it was not Muslims, because there were no Muslims

3 there at the time.

4 Q. You also said that in a number of villages in

5 the municipality of Kiseljak, mosques were being

6 demolished and destroyed after the Washington Agreement

7 by Croats. Could you state the names of such villages?

8 A. Hercezi, for example, Visnjica, all the

9 neighbouring villages, the surrounding villages of

10 Gromiljak. I cannot remember any other villages but

11 I know I heard that maybe four or five mosques had been

12 destroyed in addition to the mosque in Gromiljak.

13 Q. So we are talking about six or seven mosques

14 that were demolished after the Washington Agreement?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You knew your Croat neighbours very well. Am

17 I right in thinking that almost every adult Croat,

18 every male, had a weapon and a uniform?

19 A. Excuse me, could you repeat that question?

20 Q. You lived, for a very long time, together

21 with your Croat neighbours, you also used to work with

22 them. Am I right in thinking that almost every adult

23 Croat, male Croat at that time had a weapon and a

24 uniform --

25 MR. CAYLEY: I am objecting at this point.

Page 8054

1 This is completely outside the scope of the

2 examination-in-chief. This matter was never addressed

3 by me in my examination and would I ask that counsel

4 move on to his next question.

5 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this witness, on

6 several occasions, spoke about her neighbours wearing

7 uniforms. These were Croats who were members of the

8 HVO and allegedly they did this or that and my question

9 to her was: were these uniformed males majority or

10 minority in that area?, so I do not understand why this

11 would be wrong.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I think you stated a

13 question, that was stated differently from what you put

14 it the first time. That was the one objected to. If

15 you want to put that question again, go ahead in the

16 way you just did.

17 MR. NOBILO: Very well.

18 It is the same point: adult Croat males who

19 were your neighbours, did they all, or most of them,

20 have uniforms and weapons, the ones that you knew in

21 1993?

22 A. Yes, even women. Even women. I know that

23 the women who worked, who were from Kiseljak, were

24 taken to certain locations to train in firing from

25 automatic weapons, so that they would shoot balijas,

Page 8055

1 which was a bad word for Muslims. They were also seen

2 wearing uniforms and coming back home at night after

3 shooting practice.

4 Q. Very well. Let us try to synthesise, if

5 I could ask you for an opinion.

6 However, there is an additional question my

7 colleague just passed to me. Was your exchange a

8 private one, or was it done through official channels

9 of both sides?

10 A. It was not a private exchange, it went

11 through the Office for Exchange and with the assistance

12 of the European Monitors, and I also have certificate

13 that I was exchanged and who I was exchanged through.

14 Q. Who was exchanged for you?

15 A. There was a small group, it was six Muslims

16 for six Croats, and there were Croats who did not want

17 to be exchanged, who wanted to stay behind in their

18 houses, so there were six women there and we were also

19 six women; that is, two girls and four women.

20 Q. And who asked for this exchange, you or

21 someone else?

22 A. From the very beginning when I started being

23 persecuted, I asked to be exchanged, to go to the free

24 territory, even if they took my house, so that I could

25 be reunited with my family. However, I failed to

Page 8056

1 mention one thing: the HVO started expelling Muslims

2 from downtown Kiseljak first, they would just catch

3 people in the streets, they would take them to the

4 barricade, then they would expel them, even people who

5 were handicapped, they carried them in blankets and

6 they would bring them to the road and would force them

7 to go. Then they were taking money and gold in order

8 to get people across the lines and across the

9 barricades onto the free territory because there were

10 times when the army was not manning the -- later on,

11 this was not allowed.

12 Q. (redacted)

13 A. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. (redacted)

16 A. (redacted)

17 JUDGE JORDA: Please do not review

18 information of a personal nature, Mr. Nobilo.

19 All right, Mr. Registrar, I think we should

20 strike those particular elements from the record.

21 MR. NOBILO: Maybe it is enough that we say

22 that she lives in a Croat house, and that Croats are

23 living in her house in Kiseljak. Maybe we can just

24 redact the name of the village.

25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, we have taken

Page 8057

1 protective measures, so when any identifying

2 information is not revealed, what do you think of this,

3 Mr. Cayley? Perhaps you did not follow what was going

4 on.

5 MR. CAYLEY: I did. I understood that,

6 essentially, the witness identified the village where

7 she was living. Both parties have to attempt not to

8 ask questions. I cannot keep hitting the button every

9 time Mr. Nobilo gives identifying features about the

10 witness. I agree that that part of the evidence has to

11 be stricken --

12 JUDGE JORDA: I am not asking you to jump up

13 each time a question comes to that area. I am the one

14 that raised this particular issue. The question I am

15 asking you now is: I felt that we should take out this

16 particular element on this point. I am asking your

17 opinion.

18 MR. CAYLEY: I agree.

19 JUDGE JORDA: I see that Mr. Hayman also seems

20 to agree. Very well.

21 MR. NOBILO: I did not understand, is only the

22 name of the village going to be redacted, or the entire

23 answer?

24 JUDGE JORDA: The point that will be stricken

25 is the point concerning her current residence. Indeed,

Page 8058

1 statements about not only the village but the house in

2 which she lives. I prefer that this information not be

3 revealed since it is of a personal nature. This was

4 something we had already decided and agreed upon.

5 MR. NOBILO: Very well. Then I would just

6 like to rephrase the question so that we avoid any

7 identification of any sort.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Witness LL, I am going to ask

9 you to look at this and to know that this has been

10 stricken from the record. You should know that there

11 are not many people here in the room -- rather in the

12 gallery, but these people, of course, are people who

13 are subjected to professional secrets and to keeping

14 these secrets, so please go on with cross-examination,

15 Mr. Nobilo.

16 MR. NOBILO: Very well. I am almost done.

17 Can we just say that you now live in a Croat

18 house and Croats are now living in a Muslim house?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay, very well. In closing, can you just

21 synthesise as your opinion -- I do not know if this is

22 outside of the scope -- but you live there for a long

23 time, you are an educated person. Tell me: could

24 Croats and Muslims live there together now? Have they

25 overcome this hatred, or is the hatred still there?

Page 8059

1 A. It may be biased of me to say that the

2 Croats -- that the Muslims are more tolerant that

3 others, with other religions, but I believe that the

4 Croats in Kiseljak do not want us to come back.

5 I think that even today they work on us not returning

6 there.

7 I can mention that the programme of the

8 return of refugees has started and Muslims are starting

9 to clear the rubble of their destroyed homes so that

10 the donors could come and see this and offer

11 assistance.

12 However, a most extreme person in Kiseljak is

13 showing around. He is showing up with revolver and he

14 is threatening people, so I am not sure that this

15 hatred is going to disappear that easily. I can say

16 that I do not harbour any hatred. I pity people who

17 have declared themselves in that fashion.

18 MR. NOBILO: Very well, thank you,

19 Witness LL.

20 Mr. President, that concludes my

21 cross-examination.

22 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, do you have any

23 questions?

24 Re-examined by MR. CAYLEY:

25 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, just one point,

Page 8060

1 Mr. President.

2 Witness LL, it is concerning the mosque in

3 Gromiljak, was the mosque in Gromiljak initially set

4 fire to by the HVO in April 1993?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. CAYLEY: That is fine, thank you.

7 JUDGE JORDA: You are now going to receive

8 questions from the judges, Witness LL. I will begin

9 first with the judge to my right, Judge Riad.

10 Judge Riad?

11 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Good afternoon, Witness LL. I would like to

13 ask you a few questions to make things a little bit

14 clear in my mind. You mentioned that on 31st May 1993,

15 can you remember after the curfew, four HVO soldiers

16 came to your house, went upstairs and you watched

17 them. You recognised some of them while hiding in the

18 grass, they vandalised the house and they even

19 demolished and smashed the tiles and the story goes

20 on.

21 Was there any reason, in your opinion, why

22 you were specially selected for this, what you call

23 "vandalism and destruction", and before your son's car

24 was stolen? I do not want you to be specific, just a

25 general answer. Was it because you were a resistant or

Page 8061

1 was it because of your status in society or was it a

2 systematic way against anybody? Were you anybody or

3 were you somebody?

4 A. I believe that I enjoyed a certain amount of

5 reputation in this area and there was no reason for

6 anyone to exact any revenge against me. I was nice to

7 people and they were nice to me. I think that the main

8 reason for it all was looting because this area --

9 especially the Gomionica and Gromiljak, the Muslim

10 population was very industrious and they had a lot of

11 property and belonging, we had good furniture, good

12 cars and so now that was targeted. I think that there

13 was no special reason, maybe somebody had something

14 against my going to report this. I could see that as

15 the only reason, but I believe that otherwise my ethnic

16 background may have been the main reason for it.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Was that done to other people in

18 the same way?

19 A. Yes, but I believe that among women I was the

20 one who was the most targeted, in this village that is,

21 and Mr. Josip Maric, the local police chief, also beat

22 other women and taking their property, expelling them

23 from the house and abused them otherwise, so I am not

24 the only one.

25 So, I was not the exclusive target. Others

Page 8062

1 suffered too, but I may have been targeted also because

2 I showed more courage maybe and they did not like

3 that.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Did this Mr. Maric have anything

5 against you in particular?

6 A. No. No. Before the attack he was quite nice

7 to me. In fact, we would sit down and have coffee

8 together and when we would meet each other he would

9 smile broadly. He was really very polite. I think it

10 was some kind of a mask. I only realised who this

11 person was when I heard in 1992 that he beat prisoners

12 in the Kaonik prison in 1992.

13 He used to be a policeman beforehand, so he

14 retired as a policeman, he took an early retirement,

15 then he went back into an active duty when the

16 hostilities broke out, so he went to this camp and he

17 beat prisoners there, so I tried to keep distance from

18 this man after I heard that.

19 Later, when he came to threaten us that we

20 were not allowed to go out of the house and after all

21 the beatings and after all the abuse that he exposed me

22 to, he was still saying "good day" to me and being

23 nice, so that is hypocrisy. To me, that is real

24 hypocrisy.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you saw that people who

Page 8063

1 came to your house, you recognised some of them. They

2 were HVO soldiers?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RIAD: And then you said that other

5 houses were looted and things were stolen and taken

6 away on trucks. Was this military trucks?

7 A. Yes. No.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Not military trucks?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Taken away by HVO --

11 A. Right, right. Those who were taking things

12 and driving them away were wearing the HVO uniforms and

13 they had the insignia on their sleeves. I can name

14 them, if necessary.

15 JUDGE RIAD: So, you went and complained to

16 the Chief of Police. Was the Chief of Police the

17 superior of this Mr. Maric?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Who was the superior of

20 Mr. Maric?

21 A. Velimir Milicevic. That was the person to

22 whom I went to complain.

23 JUDGE RIAD: What was his title or role?

24 A. Velimir Milicevic was the Chief of the HVO

25 police. He was the superior officer there. And

Page 8064

1 Mr. Josip Maric was a local police commander or chief in

2 the village of Gromiljak and Mr. Milicevic was the

3 overall head of the police.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Did you think of complaining to

5 the headquarters of the HVO, to go to Vitez and

6 complain?

7 A. That was not possible.

8 JUDGE RIAD: How far were you from Vitez?

9 A. I am not sure, but maybe about

10 50 kilometres.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you also mentioned that

12 there was an old couple, 80 years old, whose house was

13 set on fire and they died, (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted), whereas the old couple they both died

23 as refugees some time later, but their house is no

24 longer around.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Was it the HVO who did all that?

Page 8065

1 A. Right.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that finally you

3 asked somebody: "Where are we supposed to go?", and

4 they told you: "We want to kill all Muslims", then they

5 mentioned that they were given -- I think this is the

6 English translation -- free reign to do whatever they

7 wanted with Muslims with impunity, they can do anything

8 with the Muslims. Who told you that?

9 A. I was told this by Bonifacije Milicevic

10 called Bono he was also a member of the HVO

11 organisation.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Was it his own version or do you

13 think that he spoke in the name of the HVO?

14 A. I believe he spoke in the name, or on behalf

15 of, the HVO.

16 JUDGE RIAD: You said that the hostility

17 started after the elections of 1991, and you mentioned

18 even that you had to go to work on foot, no bus would

19 take you, and so on. How did you see this hostility

20 growing? What moved it? Was there a kind of

21 propaganda, brainwash? What changed the people?

22 A. Yes, I believe that it was exactly that,

23 propaganda, because through my job I was known to most

24 people in the municipality and the Muslim women were

25 wearing clothes that were different from the Croat

Page 8066

1 womens' clothes so they would be recognised, so they

2 would not let them board buses, and I was recognised

3 because I was well-known.

4 So, they would not stop for me. There was an

5 HVO soldier even, he was -- he showed up once when one

6 of the 13 times when I was threatened and once he

7 threatened and he said: "If you do not leave, you will

8 be killed", and I went to report that. And often times

9 when I was going to work, he would pass by in a car and

10 he would show like this with a finger, as if I was a

11 child, threatening me and I went to the Battalion

12 Officer and made a report and then Mila Militic from

13 Presevic came to me and said to me: "You must not write

14 any more reports".

15 When I showed up, he showed me a report

16 written in English. This soldier who showed me this

17 was Mato Tomic called Hercegovac showed me a copy of

18 this, so that I did not feel safe, even walking on

19 foot, so I always walked on the edge of the road

20 because I thought that I would be -- I may be ran over

21 by an oncoming vehicle, or I could jump into a ditch,

22 so I -- I always feared that they would take everything

23 away from us, that they would leave us with nothing.

24 They simply took everything away from us, all

25 our belongings and I apologise for what I am going to

Page 8067

1 say; I do not know if you civilised people can

2 understand it. I was in a situation in this Croat

3 house, I had to wear underwear, women's underwear that

4 I found in the house, it was somebody else's underwear,

5 we were like beggars, we had nothing.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Did all Muslims had to leave

7 Gromiljak, most of them left or some stayed and some

8 left?

9 A. Some managed to escape. The majority ended

10 up in camps and I was fortunate enough that I was not

11 detained in a camp, even though I had heard that there

12 were plans for me to be taken to the Rotilj camp, but,

13 as I said previously, I was eventually exchanged in a

14 small exchange, so I was not in the camp myself, but

15 those who were in the camp tell horrifying stories

16 about what happened to them there.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you so much.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Witness LL, you said

19 that Chief of the HVO Police offered you his house. To

20 your knowledge, did other Croats offer any houses or

21 any other form of assistance to other Muslims?

22 A. No. The Chief of Police offered me his house

23 in order to cover up what was happening in front of

24 Colonel Craig Carrington, because my impression was,

25 every time when I went to UNPROFOR to report on what

Page 8068

1 happened, my impression was they did not know what was

2 happening, because all UNPROFOR interpreters were

3 Croats so most probably they did not translate what was

4 necessary, what had to be translated, but what was to

5 their advantage.

6 But, because I could manage, I spoke some

7 English, I managed to talk to them. Velimir Milicevic

8 tried to hide what was happening, he then after --

9 I spoke directly to Mr. Carrington, he offered me his

10 house, but I did not want to go to his house, his

11 family was away in Split because his house was just

12 across the building where the people who beat me were

13 staying, so it was pointless for me to go to his

14 house.

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: So, you are not disposed

16 to credit him with acting out of kindness to you in

17 offering you his house?

18 A. Well, I think he was not honest. He simply

19 wanted to put me away. He wanted to finish with this

20 UN official as soon as possible. He would have

21 probably evicted me on the same afternoon or would have

22 sent someone to throw me out of his house because he

23 was in the position of authority to other policemen, he

24 was their chief.

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let me turn to your

Page 8069

1 reference to the Washington Agreement of February 1954

2 (sic), you said that it was followed by the destruction

3 of a number of mosques. In your mind, did you then see

4 a relationship between the Washington Agreement and the

5 destruction of the mosques?

6 A. Yes. I did see a relationship, because

7 someone was supposed to take care of the implementation

8 of the Washington Agreement and they knew that later on

9 they would not have the opportunity to destroy

10 property, so they did at the very beginning,

11 immediately after the signing of the Agreement, they

12 wanted to do it as soon as possible.


14 Now, you also said that I think you saw a

15 number of houses on fire. Were they Muslim houses or

16 Croat houses or partly one and partly the other?

17 A. Only Muslim houses. Exclusively Muslim

18 houses, not a single Croat house was ever on fire. In

19 the village of Gomjanica, which was a Muslim village,

20 there were several Croat houses, maybe two or three and

21 they remained standing, not a single bullet was shot at

22 them. The targets were only Muslim houses.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Last question: you said

24 that lots of people were killed. These people who were

25 killed, were they Croats or Muslims?

Page 8070

1 A. They were all Muslim civilians, all of them.


3 JUDGE JORDA: All right, we have reached the

4 end, Witness LL. You have responded to all of the

5 questions put to you, and the Tribunal thanks you.

6 We hope for you that you will be able, in the

7 weeks and the months to come, be able to find the

8 serenity that you deserve. Please do not move for the

9 time being, because you are a protected witness. It

10 will be the Registry which will tell you when you

11 should move and how you should proceed.

12 As far as the time is concerned, the judges

13 are going to take a 20-minute recess, approximately

14 20 minutes. So the Chamber now stands adjourned.

15 (4.20 pm)

16 (A short break)

17 (4.48 pm)

18 JUDGE JORDA: We are now resuming. Please

19 have the accused brought in.

20 (The accused entered court)

21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harman, you have the floor.

22 MR. HARMAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

23 The next witness is a protected witness and

24 we are going to be requesting that we proceed with a

25 closed session.

Page 8071

1 JUDGE JORDA: No observations from the

2 Defence?

3 Okay, how are we going to call this witness;

4 Witness MM, I suppose?

5 MR. HARMAN: That is correct, Mr. President.

6 (In closed session)

7 (redacted)

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12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 8072













13 pages 8072-8112 redacted closed session









22 (6.37 pm)

23 (The hearing adjourned until 2.30 pm on

24 Tuesday, 5th May 1998)