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  1. 1 Wednesday, 1st July 1998

    2 --- Upon commencing at 9.55 a.m.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning. Would you be

    4 seated, please, and have the accused brought in?

    5 (The accused entered court)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to say good

    7 morning to everybody. I hope that everybody hears me,

    8 the interpreters, good morning. All right, we can

    9 begin. Mr. Kehoe, will you be conducting the

    10 examination-in-chief?

    11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, and I will be

    12 here with my colleague, Mr. van der Does. It's

    13 basically a solo flight with just the two of us, so

    14 that's all who will be here today. Maybe Mr. Cayley

    15 will be joining us later.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: You know, you got a strong

    17 back. You can do it all by yourself. I'm sure you can

    18 do it all by yourself. All right, go ahead.

    19 MR. KEHOE: The next witness is a witness,

    20 the pseudonym for this witness will we be Witness WW.

    21 If I could go into either private or closed session

    22 while I go into some of my preliminary remarks, some of

    23 those remarks will be of an identifying nature, and if

    24 we can do those in closed session. We have consulted

    25 with counsel on this so I don't believe there's any

  2. 1objection in that regard.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: The registrar said that we can

    3 now have private session in here.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct. We can

    5 move into a private session.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Will that be all right, private

    7 session?

    8 MR. KEHOE: That's perfectly okay,

    9 Mr. President.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Any problems with the Defence?

    11 Mr. Kehoe, go ahead.

    12 (Private session).

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    11 (Open session)

    12 MR. KEHOE: I would ask Mr. Dubuisson, and

    13 with the assistance of the usher, if we could take this

    14 particular exhibit with the circles on it and have that

    15 put on the ELMO and handed out to counsel and Your

    16 Honours, I think it would be helpful.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: This will be 402.

    18 MR. KEHOE:

    19 Q. Now, Witness WW, you have seen this exhibit

    20 402 previously; is that correct?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And you assisted me to make these various

    23 marks on this map of the village of Svinjarevo; is that

    24 right?

    25 A. Yes.

  12. 1Q. Now, using the map that is on the ELMO before

    2 you, Exhibit 402, can you explain to the Judges what

    3 happened beginning on the morning of the 18th of April,

    4 1993?

    5 A. On the 18th of April, 1993 in the morning at

    6 6.30 a.m., the Croatian Defence Council attacked the

    7 village of Svinjarevo. First, there was intense

    8 shelling from the village of Hadrovci, this is the

    9 area, and the village of Brezova Kosa, to the right of

    10 the main Busovaca-Kiseljak road.

    11 Q. Those are the areas that you're marking as

    12 letters "A" and "B"; is that right?

    13 A. Yes, these two villages here. (Indicating).

    14 Q. No, the particular shelling areas, sir, the

    15 areas of the shelling?

    16 A. It's called Purisevo. It was shelled from

    17 Hadrovci and Brezova Kosa.

    18 Q. Just continue with your story, sir.

    19 A. After the shelling, the HVO soldiers started

    20 to go along the ridge from Hadrovci towards the village

    21 of Purisevo and the hamlet of Purovo. As soon as the

    22 infantry entered the village, they burned the ten

    23 houses that were in that first hamlet, and then they

    24 went on to the second village, Japojrevo. There, they

    25 captured three civilians. We still don't know where

  13. 1they had been buried, and they had not been exchanged.

    2 They were captured on the 18th as civilians.

    3 Also on the 18th, I left the village of

    4 Svinjarevo, I left this inhabited area next to the main

    5 Busovaca-Kiseljak road. We left along this route and

    6 went to the village of Mahala and we set up a front-line

    7 there along this village here next to this cemetery

    8 here to the left. On the 18th, we set up the line

    9 here, and the Croats remained in this area. And this

    10 was the situation that lasted a whole day. The

    11 demarcation between the HVO and the TO, that area, the

    12 no-man's land, was about 100 metres.

    13 On that same day, the 18th of April, when

    14 this line was set up and the purpose of that was to

    15 evacuate the civilian population from this area down

    16 there, I went back along the same route that we used to

    17 retreat into this inhabited area. And in the early

    18 evening, the civilian population remained in their

    19 houses.

    20 Q. Let me stop you there for one moment, Witness

    21 WW, and if we could put this second exhibit on the

    22 ELMO, Exhibit 403. Now, Witness WW, we are discussing,

    23 with Exhibit 403, the evening of the 18th of April,

    24 1993. Could you tell the Judges what you did during

    25 that time frame with the civilians using Exhibit 403 as

  14. 1a guide?

    2 A. On the 18th of April, 1993 in the evening

    3 hours, we evacuated the civilian population from the

    4 lower part of Svinjarevo. And this area Rausevac, we

    5 had four Muslim houses there, and they went to this

    6 inhabited area on that same day, the inhabited area of

    7 Svinjarevo. In the dusk hours just before the

    8 nightfall, we left with the civilians along this route

    9 here, 200 civilians, and we arrived to the village of

    10 Mahala. We immediately went on along this route and

    11 along the ridge to the location of Medinik, and the

    12 civilians went into the municipality of Visoko.

    13 Q. There's an arrow at the top of the circle

    14 which comes from just below that which is part of

    15 Jehovac. Did some other villagers move up and meet you

    16 in the Mahala and also be evacuated? Where are you

    17 pointing?

    18 A. On that same day, that's the 18th of April,

    19 the village of Jehovac, the inhabitants, about 40 of

    20 them from this area right here, you can see it quite

    21 clear, they were also evacuated on the 18th into this

    22 village. And then along the same route, they left

    23 together with the other inhabitants to the municipality

    24 of Visoko.

    25 Q. How many civilians did you evacuate on the

  15. 1evening of the 18th of April, 1993?

    2 A. On the 18th of April, we evacuated around 220

    3 civilians.

    4 Q. With the assistance of the usher, if we could

    5 now move back to Exhibit 402, the previous exhibit.

    6 Now, you noted that in the morning hours, the HVO burnt

    7 the villages that are designated in letters "D" and

    8 "E"?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And that thereafter, that evening, you

    11 evacuated the civilian population on the evening of the

    12 18th of April?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Tell the Judges what happened after that.

    15 A. After that, on the 19th of April, I went back

    16 at 10.00 a.m. with two or three other men, soldiers of

    17 the TO, we went back along the same route which was

    18 used by the civilian population to leave the village of

    19 Svinjarevo to the village of Mahala. We went back to

    20 Svinjarevo, right there at the middle of this road

    21 here, and we remained there until noon.

    22 Then around noon, these four houses in the

    23 village of Rausevac were set on fire. This is

    24 predominantly a Croatian village. Around 2.00, the HVO

    25 soldiers from the village of Rausovic came here to the

  16. 1main road in Svinjarevo and stole two cars. This is

    2 the middle of the street. They took those cars out of

    3 garages and drove them away to the main

    4 Busovaca-Kiseljak route.

    5 Then they burned about ten houses from this

    6 garage here, where the cars were stolen, all the way

    7 down to the bridge, that's where the river flows

    8 through the village. And then those civilians who

    9 remained, about 18 of them who did not leave on the

    10 18th, because they probably thought that the conflict

    11 would cease, that this was just a temporary thing, they

    12 stayed in their houses here in this part and also on

    13 the right bank of the river. However, the HVO soldiers

    14 captured the civilians and took them to the Kiseljak

    15 barracks.

    16 On the 19th, four civilians of those 19 who

    17 remained in Jehovac were killed, so they were killed on

    18 the 19th by HVO soldiers. The remaining civilians who

    19 had been taken to the Kiseljak barracks were detained

    20 there for two or three days. And then three days

    21 later, they were taken back to three Muslim houses,

    22 Bosniak houses, in Jehovac along the main route. And

    23 Croats live there nowadays because the houses still

    24 stand.

    25 When they were returned from the Kiseljak

  17. 1barracks to Jehovac, they were all exchanged through

    2 their neighbours, Croats, who drove them in their cars

    3 to Visoko where they were exchanged. Only two remained

    4 out of that group. They lived in a Bosniak house here,

    5 the middle one of those three houses here, until July

    6 1993. In the evening around 10.00 p.m., a neighbour

    7 from Jehovac came and drove them away.

    8 I don't know how much time passed after that,

    9 but the remains of two of them were brought to Visoko

    10 and were handed over and buried.

    11 Q. So the burning that took place on the 19th

    12 took place in the area designated on the map as "F" and

    13 the area designated on the map around the letter "G";

    14 is that right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Continue, sir.

    17 A. On the 20th of April, '93, the demarcation

    18 line was at the village of Mahala. And here up around

    19 the cemetery, there was shelling, not so much shelling,

    20 on the side of HVO and shooting, infantry shooting.

    21 On the 21st, the HVO soldiers arrived from

    22 Svinjarevo, and they came along these woods to the

    23 lines of TO here around this village Mahala. And the

    24 civilians had left that village on the 18th. This was

    25 probably just a reconnaissance, and we started

  18. 1shooting, and they went back again.

    2 The reconnaissance came back this way to the

    3 beginning of the village of Svinjarevo, this part here,

    4 up to here. About twenty houses were burned on the

    5 21st in Spahinje, this little hamlet here. This was

    6 burnt down as well. There were no civilians there.

    7 There were seven to eight houses there.

    8 But on the 23rd, there was a big action

    9 prepared and the shelling continued. The HVO committed

    10 this shelling from Hadrovci, Rausevac, Brezova Kosa and

    11 Podastinje which is close to Kiseljak. There was heavy

    12 shelling from mortar and very heavy attack. And we

    13 left the lines around 2.00 in the afternoon, so we left

    14 them completely, this village here and this part here

    15 around the cemetery, and we drove to this part here,

    16 Stojkovici, Medenik.

    17 On the 23rd, after this heavy shelling, we

    18 went out into this part here, and I was seriously

    19 injured and five other members of TO. We were taken

    20 later on to the hospital in Visoko. I don't know what

    21 happened further during the following months, but I

    22 only know that within one month, all of this region

    23 fell, and the Croatians took over this part.

    24 During the fall of this hamlet, Mahala, this

    25 village Mahala where about ten families lived, was

  19. 1completely burned down. This part down here where I

    2 couldn't see properly up there, because we were already

    3 moved from this village up to there, I could see this

    4 part here from this part here.

    5 What you have evidence on the maps and on the

    6 photographs from the 200 facilities here, only one

    7 house remained untouched. That means that all the

    8 other houses were destroyed and burned down. Only one

    9 house remained where the Croats lived from all these

    10 facilities there.

    11 Q. Now, Witness WW, let me ask you a couple of

    12 questions about this map. When this attack was taking

    13 place in Svinjarevo, were other villages around

    14 Svinjarevo also being attacked by the HVO?

    15 A. At the same moment on the 18th of April, the

    16 village Behrec and Gomionica were attacked.

    17 Q. Now, you noted that there were houses burnt

    18 on the 18th on the two areas circled "D" and "E"; is

    19 that right?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. You also noted on the 19th that houses were

    22 burnt on the map in the areas circled "F" and "G"?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. On the 19th in the areas "F" and "G," was

    25 there any TO resistance in that area?

  20. 1A. No, there was no resistance on the side of

    2 TO, because on the 18th of April when the attack began,

    3 we came from the lower part to this village Mahala, so

    4 that we could, on the 18th in the evening, take these

    5 220 civilians outside and to give them some security.

    6 Because there were still some area free, about some 100

    7 metres free, from HVO. If the HVO soldiers had taken

    8 these 100 metres, all these civilians would have no way

    9 out, and they would have to remain down here.

    10 Q. Now, you also noted that on the 21st of

    11 April, the areas circled on the map "I" and "H" were

    12 burnt by HVO forces; is that correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Was there any Territorial Defence resistance

    15 in those areas when those houses were burnt by the HVO?

    16 A. No, there was no resistance. On the 21st,

    17 this village, there was nobody, no civilians, no

    18 members of the TO, especially this part down here that

    19 already belonged -- that was part of the main road.

    20 There were no members of the TO.

    21 Q. On the 23rd, there are three areas circled,

    22 "J," "K" and "L." Was there TO resistance in those

    23 areas when they were burnt by the HVO?

    24 A. No, there was no resistance because there

    25 were no civilians and no members of the TO. Because

  21. 1already on the 23rd, the civilians that remained in

    2 this area were already taken care of in these three

    3 houses here that are on the main road,

    4 Busovaca-Kiseljak, in a Bosniak house here in the

    5 middle. So no civilians were moving around these

    6 areas.

    7 Q. Did you see on the 23rd smoke emanating from

    8 these -- coming from these homes circled "L" and "K"?

    9 A. I could see smoke from this lower part and

    10 from this part here. So houses were burning and we

    11 could see the smoke when we were standing on this hill

    12 here, Stojkovici.

    13 Q. The area that you're pointing to as

    14 Stojkovici is the area that is designated "M" at the

    15 top of the map; is that right?

    16 A. Yes, yes, yes.

    17 Q. Now, you were wounded on the 23rd, is that

    18 correct, and taken to the hospital in Visoko?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. How many structures would destroyed during

    21 that time frame? How many structures belonging to

    22 Bosnian Muslims were destroyed?

    23 A. From the 23rd on or you mean all together?

    24 Q. From the 18th to the 23rd, approximately,

    25 during that time frame when the HVO attacked?

  22. 1A. Around 100 structures.

    2 Q. Was cattle taken as well or destroyed?

    3 A. Yes, they were taking away some cattle, and

    4 there was a lot of cattle that burned down together

    5 with the structures.

    6 Q. You mentioned previously on the 19th, there

    7 was the theft of several automobiles on the road back

    8 towards Kiseljak; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes, that's right. When the soldiers came on

    10 the 19th of April, '93, and they entered half of the

    11 village of Jehovac, they took -- because there were

    12 some better, more luxurious cars, they took those cars

    13 and these other cars that remained, they burnt down as

    14 well. They didn't take them but they were burnt down

    15 at the place where they were.

    16 Q. Witness WW, how many civilians were killed

    17 during this conflict in April of 1993?

    18 A. In Svinjarevo, there were 10 civilians

    19 killed. Where eight of them are, we still don't know.

    20 And for these two, we know because they were exchanged

    21 in Visoko.

    22 Q. Were any civilians taken captive during this

    23 time period?

    24 A. Yes, these that were taken to Kiseljak, they

    25 spent some time at the barracks in Kiseljak, and they

  23. 1were returned to this house here at the main road where

    2 you see that there are three houses.

    3 Q. Were any of those civilians that were taken

    4 captive, were they killed during the time when they

    5 were being held captive?

    6 A. Yes, these two were killed that I have

    7 already spoken about that were exchanged in Visoko.

    8 And the eight, together with these two, ten, they were

    9 exchanged. The neighbours, depending on who knew whom,

    10 took them to Visoko and then they exchanged them

    11 depending on certain relations or acquaintances.

    12 MR. KEHOE: If we can move to the next

    13 exhibit, Mr. President, Your Honours and Mr. Dubuisson,

    14 which is this particular exhibit with the legend

    15 attached, which will be 404 and 404A, I believe?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.

    17 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if we can ask the

    18 legend be placed under seal because it does identify

    19 the house belonging to Witness WW.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: We have to be careful here

    21 because, if I've understood correctly, the photographs

    22 can be seen in the public gallery, that is, the maps.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct, if we

    24 put them on the ELMO, then we're going to have to go

    25 into closed session.

  24. 1JUDGE JORDA: Well, then we better have a

    2 closed session.

    3 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, it's okay. I am

    4 simply going to ask the witness whether or not the

    5 legend accurately depicts the locations that are

    6 circled, and we need not go into the legend and we can

    7 just make that part of the record. So we're not going

    8 to go through the number of structures that were

    9 destroyed.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: We're not going to have the

    11 witness mention all 85 references. There would be no

    12 point in that. You can simply ask him if he can

    13 identify them in the way he marked them in the Office

    14 of the Prosecutor. If there's any challenge from the

    15 Defence, we'll deal with that as a separate issue.

    16 Let's try to simplify things.

    17 Mr. Kehoe, proceed, please.

    18 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President, if we

    19 can just put the map on the ELMO.

    20 Q. Witness WW, these are the structures that you

    21 circled that had been destroyed in part or in toto

    22 during the April time frame; is that right?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. The legend of names before you is the list of

    25 names where you described the individuals who owned

  25. 1these houses; is that right?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Other than the number 29, which is circled in

    4 orange, were all these structures that were destroyed,

    5 were they owned by Bosnian Muslims?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Now, structure 29, that was a structure that

    8 was owned by a Bosnian Croat; is that right?

    9 A. Yes, which still is.

    10 Q. There was a structure that was owned by a

    11 Bosnian Muslim that is on the map circled as 28 which

    12 was also not destroyed; is that right?

    13 A. Yes, that's right. There are still Croatians

    14 living there.

    15 Q. The family that owned structure 29, did they

    16 move their relatives into that house that was not

    17 destroyed, number 28?

    18 A. Yes, yes.

    19 MR. KEHOE: Thank you very much. We can move

    20 on. The last exhibit that I would like to address,

    21 Mr. President, as briefly as possible is a series of

    22 photographs that I mentioned during my prefatory

    23 remarks which is a sampling of some of the structures

    24 that were destroyed in the village of Svinjarevo during

    25 this April time frame. At this point, I would ask that

  26. 1we go into a private session, because there are various

    2 photographs at the various angles of Witness WW's

    3 house.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Then we will go

    5 into a private session.

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    8 MR. NOBILO:

    9 Q. While we're discussing this unit, is the name

    10 of the unit at least correct?

    11 A. The name of the unit is correct because all

    12 the villages are taken by that. It is not true that

    13 these are all soldiers from Svinjarevo. These are

    14 villages that belonged from Svinjarevo to Gomionica.

    15 Q. Is it true that this unit was a part of the

    16 BiH army?

    17 A. It couldn't be together and it couldn't be

    18 tied to it, and we never left the village and went to

    19 the frontlines. If we had gone to the front-line at

    20 that time, then it would have been a unit of the BiH

    21 army.

    22 Q. According to this document, were you a part

    23 of the BiH army or not?

    24 A. TO, we were TO, because in '92, there was no

    25 fighting between the Croats and the Bosniaks, and the

  2. 1BiH army could not have acted at the municipality of

    2 Kiseljak at that time.

    3 Q. Then why does the commander of BiH army

    4 appoint you if you were not part of the BiH army?

    5 A. He appointed me only when I left the police,

    6 '93, '92 in August. It was not BiH army but TO, we

    7 could say that, in the village.

    8 Q. How is it that the commander of a company of

    9 the BiH army appoints you as the commander if you are

    10 not a part of the BiH army?

    11 A. At that time, there was no BiH army. Maybe

    12 sometime in '93, there was a BiH army formed. At this

    13 area of Kiseljak, there was no BiH army.

    14 Q. But you were the BiH army?

    15 A. No, we were not because we didn't fight.

    16 Q. But according to this document, you were BiH

    17 army?

    18 A. Maybe according to you.

    19 Q. Well, these soldiers, the Territorial

    20 Defence, whatever you want to call them, did they live

    21 in their houses in the village?

    22 A. Yes, until the fighting started on the 18th.

    23 Q. Did they eat in their houses?

    24 A. Until the fighting of the 18th, yes, of

    25 course, they lived with their families. Each of them

  3. 1lived in his or her house.

    2 Q. The weapons and the ammunition that you had,

    3 did you keep them in your homes?

    4 A. No, we knew exactly how many weapons we had

    5 and where we had these weapons and where the guards

    6 were. Nobody kept the weapons in the house.

    7 Q. Did you patrol the village?

    8 A. Yes, normally, because together in '92, we

    9 did the same thing with the Croats together from

    10 Rausevic.

    11 Q. Did you dig trenches and build bunkers above

    12 the village?

    13 A. No, there were maybe a few places, but we

    14 were digging them together in '92. Croats and Bosniaks

    15 were digging the lines towards Visoko. When Visoko

    16 started fighting with Serbs, we were digging together

    17 until '92, until the division occurred. When the

    18 Croats separated, they didn't want to continue with

    19 us. They separated to their villages and we went to

    20 ours, and that was what the situation was like from '92

    21 to '93.

    22 Q. What about bunkers?

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Witness WW, if you don't mind,

    24 when you answer the questions, would you look at the

    25 Judges, please? Thank you.

  4. 1THE WITNESS: Yes.

    2 MR. NOBILO:

    3 Q. Were there any bunkers further up from the

    4 village?

    5 A. No, there were no bunkers.

    6 Q. The area of the responsibility of the unit

    7 under your command, was it Medjumostine, Svinjarevo,

    8 Purisevici (phoen), Mahavici (phoen)?

    9 A. Normally. That was that zone that existed,

    10 but we didn't really have lines. We weren't dug in.

    11 Q. Was that your area of responsibility?

    12 A. No, that was not a zone. This was only where

    13 the Bosniaks were. It was normal that in the evening

    14 we had patrols, the same as the Croats did around their

    15 villages.

    16 Q. You testified that 10 civilians were killed

    17 all together. Do you know under which circumstances

    18 these civilians died? Did you see how, in what manner,

    19 each of them were killed?

    20 A. I know that none of them had a gun in his

    21 hand, of these ten that died.

    22 Q. Did you see the circumstances in which those

    23 people were killed, in what manner?

    24 A. The first three on the 18th that were

    25 captured were captured in Purisevo. So during the

  5. 1attack on the 18th, they were captured as civilians.

    2 Normally, in civilian structures, and I didn't see what

    3 happened -- to this day, they haven't been exchanged.

    4 One of them was 65 years of age.

    5 Q. Can you please give me a direct answer?

    6 Under which circumstances were those civilians killed?

    7 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, counsel. I would ask

    8 that counsel ask questions and not editorialise on

    9 whether or not he agrees or disagrees with his answer

    10 by commenting, "Please give me a direct answer."

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Okay, objection sustained. Ask

    12 your questions, Mr. Nobilo, and let's move on.

    13 Continue, please.

    14 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I was not

    15 commenting, but the witness is avoiding answering the

    16 question. I asked twice, and I attempted the third

    17 time. Please allow me to ask whether he knows under

    18 which circumstances these civilians were killed, and

    19 that's the only answer I want. I'm not commenting.

    20 Whether he knows, under which circumstances they were

    21 killed, that's a relevant question.

    22 A. On the 18th of April --

    23 MR. KEHOE: He's editorialising.

    24 Editorialising goes on often in the questions which I

    25 let go, and I don't object to it. The question that

  6. 1started off questioning why he doesn't answer his

    2 direct question, that is editorialising by counsel.

    3 And I simply ask counsel to ask questions and restrict

    4 his comments until final argument. That's all.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, let me say to you,

    6 there's always some degree of editorialising in

    7 questions. What I'm trying to do is to be sure that we

    8 respect certain limits. I've sustained your objection

    9 by telling Mr. Nobilo to avoid anything that might be

    10 comments. Now he has to ask questions as he wishes

    11 to. He is the Defence counsel, and he can ask

    12 questions as he likes. Have faith in me. I will be

    13 very attentive about all of this.

    14 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    15 Q. Witness WW, do you know under which

    16 circumstances those ten civilians were killed, any of

    17 them or all of them?

    18 A. I don't know for all of them under which

    19 circumstances. I know that they were killed as

    20 civilians. On the 18th of April, these first three

    21 that were captured during the first day were captured

    22 in the first village that was burned down on the 18th.

    23 They were captured then. I don't know for how long

    24 they remained there. I don't know what exactly

    25 happened. We still don't know nowadays what happened

  7. 1to them.

    2 I know for these other civilians that were

    3 captured there normally, they saw the others that were

    4 killed, that they were killed in front of their houses

    5 or on some meadows while they were withdrawing, when

    6 they wanted to leave. I couldn't see everything, how

    7 each of them was killed. They saw them, for example,

    8 that they were killed while they were leaving or coming

    9 back.

    10 Q. Let's clarify this for the transcript. Can

    11 we then conclude that you know that they were killed

    12 but you don't know in what manner because you did not

    13 see it?

    14 A. I know that they were killed, but I don't

    15 know in which way they were killed.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Move to another question,

    17 please.

    18 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    19 Q. I would just like the names of those ten

    20 civilians to be mentioned?

    21 A. Halilbasic Rifet, Colakovic Osman, Cutura

    22 Adem, Japaur Hamdo, Japaur Munever, Rahmanovic Mustafa,

    23 Osmanovic Enver, Mustajbegovic Halid, Japaur Ismet ...

    24 Q. All right, if you can't recall any more

    25 names. My next question is: Can we find any or all of

  8. 1these civilians on the list that I showed you a couple

    2 of minutes ago?

    3 A. You can find them, but at that time, these

    4 people all remained down there in the street. So they

    5 were not with the TO, so they didn't have a gun in

    6 their hand.

    7 Q. How long did the resistance last?

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, excuse me for

    9 interrupting you. I think this is almost the break

    10 time, so I want to know whether you still have a lot of

    11 questions to ask. It's just having to do with

    12 scheduling our hearing.

    13 MR. NOBILO: Not a long time, but maybe it

    14 would be a good idea to have the break now. Ten

    15 minutes, fifteen minutes, it's hard to say.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We will take a

    17 20-minute break. The court is adjourned.

    18 --- Recess taken at 11.19 a.m.

    19 --- On resuming at 11.49 a.m.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing will resume now.

    21 Have the accused brought in, please.

    22 (The accused entered court)

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo.

    24 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    25 Q. So we stopped at the time when we were trying

  9. 1to determine what's your idea, how long did this

    2 resistance last until you retreated from the

    3 municipality of Kiseljak?

    4 A. It lasted till I was wounded, so we were at

    5 the territory of Svinjarevo for five days.

    6 Q. After you were wounded, did the unit remain

    7 there at the territory of the Kiseljak municipality?

    8 A. Yes, it remained there for another month.

    9 Q. It's only the 25 people that you mentioned at

    10 the beginning that fought?

    11 A. Normally, where I was.

    12 Q. Were there any soldiers killed in Svinjarevo?

    13 A. In Svinjarevo, no.

    14 Q. Not a single soldier, only ten civilians.

    15 Can you please tell me, do you know whether any houses

    16 were razed to the ground or burnt during that month and

    17 a half and five days when the fighting was more intense

    18 and closer to Svinjarevo? Were any houses damaged

    19 during the combat and due to the combat?

    20 A. The houses were destroyed mostly during the

    21 attack from burning, normally, not from the shells.

    22 None from the shells.

    23 Q. Your brother was killed.

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Was he a soldier or a civilian?

  10. 1A. He was in the TO, member of the TO.

    2 Q. He was killed in the fight around Svinjarevo;

    3 is that what you were telling us about?

    4 A. Yes, that's true, in the village Mahala. He

    5 was carrying food.

    6 Q. You said a little while ago that no soldiers

    7 were killed, only civilians. How do you explain that?

    8 A. He was carrying food.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Stay within the scope of the

    10 examination-in-chief, please, Mr. Nobilo.

    11 MR. NOBILO:

    12 Q. Behrec and Gomionica, you said these villages

    13 were attacked. Did they have their own units of the

    14 Territorial Defence or the BiH army?

    15 A. Normally, they had. Each village had the TO.

    16 Q. Can we then say that the principal

    17 organisation of the Territorial Defence and the HVO in

    18 Bosnia was one village, one unit or several smaller

    19 villages, one unit? Can we say that this was the

    20 principle in both sides?

    21 A. I don't know what the principle was like for

    22 HVO. I know that each village had their guards, at

    23 least the Bosniak villages, in '92.

    24 Q. You said that in this area there were 200

    25 houses that were destroyed by one and that you

  11. 1evacuated 220 civilians through the woods. What about

    2 the rest of the population? When did they evacuate?

    3 A. All the destroyed villages that were in the

    4 upper part of Svinjarevo, for example, ten to fifteen

    5 houses, these were empty houses that the people had

    6 built and then they moved to new houses in Svinjarevo.

    7 So that these other ones were empty.

    8 Q. You meant abandoned?

    9 A. Yes, abandoned because people built new

    10 houses and they moved to these new houses before the

    11 fighting.

    12 Q. But if 200 houses, less ten or fifteen, it's

    13 180 or 185, and we have 220 civilians that you

    14 evacuated, so I ask you whether some inhabitants left

    15 the area before the fighting?

    16 A. No, not ten to fifteen, there were four

    17 hamlets there, Purisevo, Mahala, and these were

    18 hamlets. This is not ten to fifteen houses, this is 50

    19 or 60 houses.

    20 Q. So 60 abandoned old houses?

    21 A. Approximately.

    22 Q. We saw the pictures of your village. Can you

    23 please tell us, do you know when these photographs were

    24 taken?

    25 A. No, I can't.

  12. 1Q. Were you in the village after it had been

    2 burnt down, after everything was finished in 1993?

    3 A. No, I wasn't there in 1993, but when Dayton

    4 was signed, I went to the village Svinjarevo.

    5 Q. So you saw your village for the first time

    6 after the evacuation and the retreat in 1994, in

    7 February?

    8 A. '93.

    9 Q. In 1993, you left the village?

    10 A. Yes, but during the Dayton Agreement --

    11 Q. And when was the Dayton Agreement signed?

    12 A. Somewhere in 1994.

    13 Q. So you can only testify as to the way that

    14 the village looked in 1994; is that correct?

    15 A. '95. It was 1995 when I entered the village

    16 for the first time. It wasn't '94.

    17 Q. So you can only testify about the way that

    18 the village looked in 1995?

    19 A. '95.

    20 Q. The villagers of your village, you are the

    21 chairman of the committee, I don't know what the

    22 official name is, of the agency for the return and the

    23 reconstruction of Svinjarevo, you're working on it,

    24 you're trying to rebuild the village, and you're

    25 planning to go back. But in the meantime, where did

  13. 1the people from your village live, those people who

    2 fled, the 220 people who fled?

    3 A. Fojnica, Visoko, Kakanj, and Bilalovac.

    4 Q. Whose houses?

    5 A. Mostly all of us live -- a very small number

    6 of us in Bosniak houses, a few of us in Serbian houses,

    7 and most of us in Croatian houses.

    8 Q. Let's go back to the very beginning when our

    9 client, Colonel Blaskic, came to Jehovac. What was the

    10 reason why he came there? Was it an official meeting

    11 or was it accidental?

    12 A. No, there wasn't an official meeting. He

    13 just stopped by.

    14 Q. Can you tell us now from the distance and

    15 from your experience that you have now, among the

    16 villagers of Bosniak nationality, his arrival, his

    17 words, did it have a calming effect to the inter-ethnic

    18 relations?

    19 A. Yes. Normally, it was calming us down and it

    20 worked because he told us that there would be no

    21 problems, that we should live together in that sense.

    22 Q. This group in which you were when Colonel

    23 Blaskic arrived, was it only Bosniaks or were there

    24 also Croats there?

    25 A. There were four or five Bosniaks.

  14. 1Q. The rest, were they Croats?

    2 A. No, they were not Croats.

    3 MR. NOBILO: So only Bosniaks. I have no

    4 further questions.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, do you want to ask

    6 any additional questions within the scope of the

    7 cross-examination?

    8 MR. KEHOE: Of course. Just a couple of

    9 questions, and I would ask that Exhibit D142 that

    10 Defence counsel used with the witness be given to the

    11 witness? I'm sorry, 143. I apologise. Yes.

    12 Re-examined by Mr. Kehoe:

    13 Q. Witness WW, how many weapons did the TO have

    14 to defend itself in the village of Svinjarevo on the

    15 morning of the 18th of April, 1993?

    16 A. We had about 25 rifles.

    17 Q. Now, what type of rifles were these?

    18 A. Seven hunting rifles, eight M-48 rifles, ten

    19 rifles were automatic rifles.

    20 Q. Now, you were shelled that morning, were you

    21 not?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. What were you shelled with?

    24 A. Sixty-millimetre mortars, 80-millimetre

    25 mortars, 120-millimetre mortars, and also one or two

  15. 1anti-aircraft guns.

    2 Q. Did you have any mortars or any anti-aircraft

    3 weapons to respond to the shelling by the HVO?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Now let's turn to this Exhibit D143 that

    6 Defence counsel gave you. Do you see that before you?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Now, is this the list of every living male up

    9 to approximately 50-something, I suppose, living in the

    10 Svinjarevo-Behrici-Rudnik area?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Let's look at this first page. Do you know a

    13 man by the name of Rahamovic Nezir?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Did he ever participate in any of the TO

    16 activities?

    17 A. No, he didn't even participate in the guard

    18 duty.

    19 Q. What about Kebic Mirsad, the next individual?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Look down that page. Do you know a man by

    22 the name of Purisevic Nurija?

    23 A. No.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Could you indicate the pages,

    25 please? I'm not following you very clearly. I've got

  16. 1the first -- the first one -- we're on what page?

    2 MR. KEHOE: These aren't paged; Defence

    3 counsel hasn't paginated them. It's a page that has

    4 Bego Seid as the first name, Judge. All I'm going

    5 through is a list of these people; a lot of these

    6 people never participated in any of this. There's no

    7 pages on this, Judge, which is a little difficult. It

    8 says Command III --

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Maybe it's page 5. There's a

    10 number 5 on the top. Is it page 5 then? All the way

    11 on the top. That's what my colleagues are pointing out

    12 to me. Is that it?

    13 MR. KEHOE: I think so, Your Honour.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, we found it.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Thank you to my

    16 colleagues. Continue, please.

    17 MR. KEHOE:

    18 Q. Do you know someone by the name of Purisevic

    19 Nurija?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. What was his physical condition at that time?

    22 A. Well, bad. He was 80 per cent disabled.

    23 Q. So at the time of the war, he's 80 per cent

    24 disabled.

    25 A. Yes.

  17. 1Q. Did he fight with you during these attack

    2 periods of time in 1993?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Let's continue down that page. Do you know a

    5 man by the name of Japaur Asef?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. What was his physical condition?

    8 A. Well, it was bad. He was not with us at all.

    9 Q. Continue down that page. Rahmanovic Husein.

    10 Do you know that man?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. What was his physical condition?

    13 A. Bad. He had been in a traffic accident.

    14 Q. Let's turn to the next page, which is the

    15 page, Your Honour, which has I VOD and then the Roman

    16 numeral II.

    17 Let's go down, in that first group, let's

    18 look at Ibreljic Vahid. Do you know that man?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Did he participate with you?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. What was the matter with him?

    23 A. He had a spine condition.

    24 Q. Let's continue down to the next group.

    25 Brkanovic Hasan. Do you know that man?

  18. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did he ever participate?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. What about the next group, Behlil Ramiz.

    5 Where was he from?

    6 A. He was from the village of Rudnik.

    7 Q. Did he ever participate?

    8 A. No, because he was in Kiseljak, and he baked

    9 bread with Hrvoje in the municipality of Kiseljak

    10 during the conflict.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. What do you mean by

    12 "participate"?

    13 MR. KEHOE: A lot of these people on here

    14 never were involved in the TO, never did anything.

    15 This is a group or list that is simply on paper, Judge,

    16 and it's not a reality as to what was happening. What

    17 has happened is these lists were developed before that

    18 were obviously taken and it's a list of every living

    19 man there that didn't actually do anything, that didn't

    20 fight.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: Were they participating in

    22 fighting or in ensuring the security of a village? I

    23 mean, there are many participations.

    24 MR. KEHOE: They didn't do anything.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: Could you just be clear?

  19. 1MR. KEHOE:

    2 Q. The individuals that we talked about so far,

    3 Witness WW, did they participate in any way in guarding

    4 or defending the village?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Continue on that same list. Behlil Mujo, do

    7 you know that individual?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did he participate in defending or guarding

    10 the village?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Let's continue on with the next name,

    13 Hodurda, and pardon my pronunciation, Bajazid. Do you

    14 see that name?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Did he participate?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Continue on that list. Keep going down.

    19 Behlil Hasan, did he participate?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. So, Witness WW, based on your experience with

    22 the TO in Svinjarevo, does this list of people made in

    23 '92 accurately depict who was working in the TO when

    24 the HVO attacked on the 18th of April, 1993?

    25 A. I did not understand your question.

  20. 1Q. Is this an accurate list of the members of

    2 the TO as of April 18th, 1993? Is this a list on paper

    3 or is this actually the amount of soldiers you had?

    4 A. This is just a theoretical list.

    5 Q. Now, you were asked by Defence counsel, when

    6 you went back into the village, and you said you went

    7 back into the village after the Dayton Peace Accords;

    8 is that right?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. When you were in the village in April of

    11 1993, did you see the HVO burning all of these houses

    12 while you were at various locations, and did you see

    13 smoke emanating from other locations where it clearly

    14 indicated that they were burning those houses?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Was there any military reason for them to

    17 burn every house in Svinjarevo?

    18 A. No military reason because all the houses

    19 that were burnt in the lower part, there were no

    20 members of the Territorial Defence.

    21 Q. In fact, sir, did you see HVO soldiers

    22 pouring petrol or benzene on houses to burn them on

    23 occasion?

    24 A. I saw on the 23rd, in the village of Mahala,

    25 that was when Mahala fell, the last house was burned in

  21. 1the following way: A lad that was burning the houses

    2 carried a jerrycan. That's the only thing I saw. I

    3 didn't see how they set the fire to other buildings.

    4 Q. And after you saw him carrying the jerrycan,

    5 did the houses go up in flames?

    6 A. All the houses before were already in flames

    7 bar that last one, and that last one, the last house in

    8 the village, was also set on fire. I saw the soldier

    9 carry a jerrycan, he entered the house, and all of a

    10 sudden, there was this smoke and flames coming from the

    11 inside.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, Your Honours, I

    13 have no further questions. Thank you.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. The Judges are

    15 going to ask some questions now.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness WW. I

    17 just would like to understand more clearly a few

    18 things.

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  22. 1(redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 A. No.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: What do you mean by, this was a

    7 theoretical list, about the list, if I understand you?

    8 What do you mean by it was a theoretical list?

    9 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. This is a public

    10 hearing --

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. In respect of the words

    12 that are being said, I would like to remind you that

    13 this is now a public hearing, so in respect of the

    14 questions that you want to ask, Judge Riad, would you

    15 prefer that we have a private session? That might be

    16 better.

    17 All right. We're going to move into a

    18 private session.

    19 (Private session)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (Open session)

    25 JUDGE JORDA: We're back in public session

  29. 1now, are we? Mr. Kehoe, it's now 25 after 12. Do you

    2 have any other witnesses? Would you prefer us to wait

    3 until the afternoon? Where are we?

    4 MR. KEHOE: I would prefer, Mr. President, if

    5 we could wait until the afternoon with the court's

    6 permission.

    7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if we may

    8 suggest, we agree, but these 35 minutes, that goes the

    9 time of the Prosecutor.

    10 MR. HAYMAN: I have a different request. I

    11 would ask the court to instruct the Prosecutor not to

    12 discuss this list with the next witness who, I think,

    13 is also from the (redacted). Let's get the

    14 witness's own impressions of the list without the extra

    15 two hours of preparation concerning this list if,

    16 indeed, the next witness is from (redacted).

    17 So we would ask for a sequestering of the

    18 next witness on that limited issue from the Prosecution

    19 during the lunch break.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Now you're empowering me with

    21 powers more greater than those given to me by the

    22 statute, and I don't know what I can answer.

    23 Mr. Kehoe, were you planning to prepare the

    24 next witness? Did you plan to have lunch with the next

    25 witness and to prepare him again?

  30. 1MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I don't know what

    2 counsel is afraid of. Have no fear. I will not have

    3 lunch with the next witness. I will not sit down and

    4 chat with the next witness and maybe go to the beach

    5 together. I mean, I don't know what the import is of

    6 counsel's arguments. Have no fear, Mr. President.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Anyway, we don't have enough

    8 time. Very well, I think that's the end of this

    9 incident. However, Mr. Nobilo asked that the 35

    10 minutes be counted as part of the Prosecution case.

    11 You know that I'm trying to apply this rule as flexibly

    12 as I can, but it's true that there are a lot of holes

    13 in our schedule. Therefore, it is legitimate that this

    14 be counted as part of the Prosecution's time. Now let

    15 me turn to my colleagues.

    16 Very well, the Judges say that we will resume

    17 at a quarter after two, 2.15.

    18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.

    19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.27 p.m.







  31. 1--- On resuming at 2.24 p.m.

    2 (Open session)

    3 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing

    4 now. Have the accused brought in, please?

    5 (The accused entered court)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: We can resume now. Mr. Cayley,

    7 you are going to represent the Prosecution; is that

    8 correct?

    9 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President,

    10 Your Honours, Counsel. Yes, I am.

    11 The Prosecutor now proposes to adduce

    12 additional evidence in support of paragraphs 5 and 5.1,

    13 these being part of the general allegations in the

    14 second amended indictment against General Blaskic. I

    15 think it is now accepted jurisprudence within this

    16 Tribunal that in order for those charges, which are

    17 grave breaches and which rely upon the Geneva

    18 Convention for their legal foundation, the four Geneva

    19 Conventions, there must be a preliminary finding by the

    20 court under paragraph 5 and 5.1. It is this finding

    21 which, if you will, triggers the grave breaches

    22 provisions of the Geneva Conventions.

    23 Now, the requirements of that finding and its

    24 factual parameters are a matter for closing argument

    25 between the parties and, ultimately, judicial finding.

  32. 1Now is not the appropriate time for that argument.

    2 However, I think it would not be improper or

    3 ill-founded of me at this time to say that, broadly

    4 speaking, this part of the proof concerns the extent

    5 and manner of the military and political relationship

    6 between the Republic of Croatia and the HV on the one

    7 side, and the Croatian community, later Republic of

    8 Herceg-Bosna, and the HVO on the other side.

    9 To this is logically connected the role and

    10 involvement of the Republic of Croatia in the affairs

    11 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1991 to

    12 1994. At the outset, I would like to submit to the

    13 Chamber and to the Defence two tabulated dossiers

    14 containing a number of documents.

    15 Mr. Registrar, if those documents could be

    16 distributed to the court?

    17 These documents, along with oral testimony

    18 and a few other documents which we will submit towards

    19 the end of the case, are our proofs for this part of

    20 the case. There will be no oral testimony for this

    21 part of the proceedings. How I propose to proceed,

    22 Mr. President, if you're in agreement, is to, in

    23 essence, give a summary of these documents. Within

    24 that summary, I hope to highlight the evolution of

    25 these assembled papers, relying exclusively on the

  33. 1facts contained within the documents. I will not be

    2 drawing any conclusion, giving any argument at all.

    3 That is not for this part of the case. There are 113

    4 documents in these two dossiers. I intend to go

    5 through some of the documents individually, but with

    6 others, I simply propose to speak about groups of

    7 documents. The index provided to all of the parties

    8 indicates the origin of each individual document.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: May I, Counsel?

    10 MR. CAYLEY: Please.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, we are not sure

    12 what this procedure is. We are unaware of it and have

    13 not had any prior information about it. If the

    14 Prosecution has documents they wish to offer, we

    15 certainly find that appropriate. We can look at them.

    16 We may not have objection to any of them. We may have

    17 objection to some of them, and we can respond in due

    18 course. But counsel is not a witness. He's not a

    19 summary witness. He's not a fact witness. He's not a

    20 legal expert witness. He's no kind of witness. And

    21 this is -- nor is this time for closing argument or the

    22 time for a summary of other evidence.

    23 We're entirely unfamiliar with the type of

    24 proceeding that counsel is proposing. We've listened.

    25 We will listen further about exactly what the nature of

  34. 1this proceeding is and, perhaps, take guidance from the

    2 court, of course, ultimately. But as far as we know,

    3 in my system and the continental system that Mr. Nobilo

    4 is expert in, parties can offer documents, and then at

    5 the end of the case, comment on them, but parties don't

    6 comment on documents directly to the court in the

    7 middle of the case.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to deliberate with

    9 my colleagues.

    10 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, would it be

    11 appropriate for me to respond to the --

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, excuse me. I forgot to

    13 give you the floor before I conferred with my

    14 colleagues. I'm referring to Rule 85, but we'll listen

    15 to you first, yes.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: My learned friend has

    17 misinterpreted what I said or, perhaps, has misheard

    18 me. I'm not presenting myself as a witness. We are in

    19 a unique institution in this court. We are not obliged

    20 to follow the particular rules of any common law or

    21 civil law system. The rules provide that any evidence

    22 may be admitted by a Chamber if it is relevant and if

    23 it is deemed to have probative value. There are no

    24 requirements in the rules as to how that particular

    25 evidence can be presented. Indeed, Rule 85 speaks that

  35. 1each party is entitled to call witnesses and present

    2 evidence. There is no requirement that a witness needs

    3 to be called to present this particular evidence.

    4 As I've already stated earlier, I have no

    5 intention of making any sort of argument about these

    6 documents. My intent is simply to give a summary to

    7 the court, if you will, a navigational chart, so that

    8 the most important aspects of these documents can be

    9 highlighted to the court. We can identify the origin

    10 of all but one of these documents. The court can be

    11 secure in that fact. So I'm perfectly happy to argue

    12 later with my learned friend about the question of

    13 admissibility, which I think is, in my view and the

    14 Prosecutor's view, beyond doubt.

    15 These documents can be admitted into

    16 evidence, and there is nothing in the rules which

    17 precludes us from offering evidence in this manner.

    18 MR. HAYMAN: Those are two different

    19 questions, Mr. President, whether the documents --

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I can give the

    21 floor back to you, but you had your response. All

    22 right, go ahead. Go ahead, but do it quickly, please.

    23 MR. HAYMAN: Just for clarity of the

    24 argument. There are two different issues. Documents

    25 may well be self-authenticating and we may not object

  36. 1to them, and documents can come in without a witness.

    2 That's one issue. A separate issue is whether counsel,

    3 in the middle of their case, can lecture the court on

    4 what documents contain and, perhaps, what they mean.

    5 We don't think the latter is appropriate. The former,

    6 we don't know if there is a dispute because we have

    7 never seen these binders before. And we would propose,

    8 quite frankly, the court can admit them subject to the

    9 Defence having the opportunity to review them and raise

    10 any objections or concerns we may. Then we proceed

    11 with the next witness.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. The Judges decide

    13 that an application of Rule 85(A) of the rules, each of

    14 the parties is entitled to call and present evidence.

    15 We are in this case here, and the Judges, therefore,

    16 accept that the Prosecutor can present the evidence

    17 which is found in these documents. However, as regards

    18 admissibility, this could be discussed at the time when

    19 the Defence replies through the presentation of its own

    20 evidence. For the time being, we admit the

    21 presentation, by the Prosecutor, of the evidence. The

    22 admissibility, as well as the relevance, will be

    23 discussed and admitted by the Tribunal, of course, in

    24 light of any answers that the Defence may make at the

    25 proper time, and that may be at any time.

  37. 1We will, therefore, continue and we will hear

    2 what Mr. Cayley has to present us as evidence.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: If I can just reassure a concern

    4 that my learned friend has expressed. I am in no way

    5 going to draw any conclusions from these documents at

    6 that time. That would be improper of me. I simply

    7 intend to summarise, in a very short period of time,

    8 probably about 20 minutes, the broad content of these

    9 documents.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Well, take as much as time as

    11 you need. We have taken a decision. We accept that

    12 this is presented. If you need more than 20 minutes,

    13 then take more than 20 minutes. Conciseness is not

    14 really part of the discussion here. Take the time that

    15 you need. That's your problem.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: A number of documents are

    19 confidential and we will have to move into closed

    20 session for those documents. They have been provided

    21 to the Tribunal on a confidential basis, but I will

    22 express at the time the necessity, with your

    23 permission, Mr. President, to move into private

    24 session.

    25 A number of the documents have been

  38. 1translated into the French language, not all of them.

    2 We will endeavour to have a full set of translations

    3 before the end of the case.

    4 If I can refer the court, first of all, to

    5 document 1. In July of 1991, the Bosnian branch of the

    6 Croatian Democratic Union or the HDZ --

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Are we in a closed session

    8 here?

    9 THE REGISTRAR: For the time being, this is

    10 still public.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: You would prefer that this be

    12 completely closed, Mr. Cayley?

    13 MR. CAYLEY: It can be open for the time

    14 being, Mr. President, and I will let you know at the

    15 appropriate time.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. All right then, for

    17 the time being, we will remain in public session.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: In July of 1991, the Bosnian

    19 branch of the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic Union, met

    20 in Busovaca. Present were leaders of the Bosnian HDZ

    21 from Kresevo, Kiseljak, Fojnica, Busovaca, Vitez, Novi

    22 Travnik and Travnik. Dario Kordic presided at that

    23 meeting. There was deep concern expressed about the

    24 security situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia.

    25 A number of conclusions were reached, including that

  39. 1the Republic of Croatia was the victim of aggression at

    2 the hands of the JNA and the Chetniks, and that in

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a silent occupation was being

    4 carried out by the Serbs.

    5 In light of that Serb threat to

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a rallying call was made to all

    7 Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina. A clear reference is

    8 made in this document to the protection of Croat

    9 interests in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, could you please

    11 slow down for the sake of the interpreters?

    12 MR. CAYLEY: And a proposal is made within

    13 this document for the formation of the Croatian

    14 National Council to represent the authority for the

    15 Croat peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina as an alternative

    16 to the Bosnian official authorities.

    17 The document makes clear reference to Croatia

    18 as the motherland and calls on the president of the

    19 Bosnian branch of the Croatian Democratic Union to

    20 arrange an urgent session of the HDZ, BiH main board on

    21 the 24th of July, 1991 and calls four leaders of the

    22 HDZ in Zagreb, in the Republic of Croatia, to attend

    23 that session.

    24 Document 2: This is a document of the 12th

    25 of November of 1991, and it sets out a policy of an

  40. 1organisation termed the Croatian Regional Community of

    2 Herzegovina and the Travnik Regional Community of

    3 Croats. That policy is declared as the formation of a

    4 common Croatian state formed from the Republic of

    5 Croatia and those areas as claimed as Croatian

    6 territories within Bosnia-Herzegovina. The document

    7 refers to previous agreements with the presence of

    8 Croatia in Zagreb, in this regard, on the 30th and 20th

    9 of June, 1991.

    10 Document 3 demonstrates that by March of

    11 1992, large sums of money were being made available by

    12 the Republic of Croatia for the physical defence of

    13 Croat interests in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    14 Document 4 shows that at the same time, the

    15 late Gojka Susak, then Minister of Defence for the

    16 Republic of Croatia, is called upon by the Central

    17 Bosnian command of Bosnian Croat forces for instruction

    18 for military action in the area of Central Bosnia.

    19 If we can move ahead now to document 5. On

    20 the 21st of March of 1992, Dr. Franjo Tudjman, the

    21 president of the Republic of Croatia, writes to Alija

    22 Izetbegovic, the President of the Republic of Bosnia,

    23 and by way of formal decision recognises the state of

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina and offers citizenship to the

    25 Republic of Croatia, to members of the Croatian nation

  41. 1in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    2 The next set of documents can be taken as a

    3 group, and they are documents 6 to 22. On the 10th of

    4 April of 1992, Dr. Tudjman appoints General Janko

    5 Bobetko in command of all units of the Croatian army,

    6 the HV, on the southern front from the cities of Split

    7 to Dubrovnik. A staff is ordered to be formed at the

    8 same time.

    9 Document 7 shows that on the 12th of April,

    10 1992, an order is issued by the commander of the Split

    11 operative zone, Mate Viduka, on the order of General

    12 Bobetko, to move the 4th Brigade of the Croatian

    13 National Guard Corps to the defence of Citluk in

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The brigade is ordered to remove

    15 all Croatian army insignia before proceeding to Citluk

    16 and to present themselves as volunteer defenders of the

    17 homeland.

    18 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.

    19 MR. CAYLEY: I'm sorry.

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps you could repeat that?

    21 MR. CAYLEY: Document 7, Judge Riad, is an

    22 order of the 12th of April, 1992, issued by the

    23 commander of the Split operative zone, a man by the

    24 name of Mate Viduka, on the order of General Bobetko, a

    25 Croatian lieutenant-general, to move the 4th Brigade of

  42. 1the Croatian National Guard Corps to the defence of

    2 Citluk, which is a town in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The

    3 brigade is ordered to remove all Croatian army insignia

    4 before proceeding to Citluk and to present themselves

    5 as volunteer defenders of the homeland.

    6 Document 8 is an order of General Bobetko of

    7 the 16th of April of 1992. This Croatian

    8 lieutenant-general establishes a forward command post

    9 of his southern command in Grude in

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Document 8 has attached to it the

    11 seal of the main staff of Herceg-Bosna, and it appoints

    12 Colonel Milivoj Petkovic as the deputy of General Janko

    13 Bobetko, a Croatian lieutenant-general.

    14 Document 9. On the 19th of April of 1992,

    15 General Bobetko orders the preparation of the defence

    16 of Livno and Tomislavgrad, both of these places being

    17 20 kilometres inside the national border of

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Again, this order is signed by

    19 General Bobetko as commander of the Croatian southern

    20 front and is sealed "Herceg-Bosna Main Staff."

    21 Document 10. On the 20th of April of 1992,

    22 General Bobetko, Croatian lieutenant-general, appoints

    23 a number of officers of the HVO of the Croatian

    24 community of Herceg-Bosna. He still signs, from the

    25 Grude command post, as commander of the southern front,

  43. 1but this time you will note from the document that his

    2 orders are given on the headed paper of the Croatian

    3 community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council.

    4 Document 11. On the same day, General

    5 Bobetko appoints Major General Ante Roso and Brigadier

    6 Miljenko Crnjec to command positions in the HVO. One

    7 is placed in command of Livno and the other in charge

    8 of the Duvno-Prozor-Konjic region. Both Prozor and

    9 Konjic are at least 60 kilometres inside

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina from its border with the Republic of

    11 Croatia.

    12 Document 12, again on that day, the 21st of

    13 April, General Bobetko calls Major General Ante Roso,

    14 General Slobodan Praljak and Brigadier Crnjec to report

    15 to him for a briefing. Again, this is on the headed

    16 notepaper of the HVO and the HZ-HB, the Croatian

    17 community of Herceg-Bosna.

    18 Document 13 is a document of the 4th of May,

    19 1992, where, as commander of the southern front command

    20 of the army of the Republic of Croatia, General Bobetko

    21 transmits an order from the main staff of the Croatian

    22 army to the headquarters of the HVO in respect of

    23 military training requirements.

    24 Now, a document which may seem out of place

    25 and interrupts the continuity of these documents is

  44. 1Resolution 752, which is document 14, Resolution 752 of

    2 the Security Council, and this is a document that

    3 demands that both the army of the Republic of Croatia

    4 and the JNA cease from interfering in

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, withdraw, and respect the

    6 territorial integrity of the country, and that document

    7 is dated the 15th of May and is provided in English and

    8 French.

    9 Move on now to document 15. On the 16th of

    10 May, 1992, one day after Resolution 752 is passed by

    11 the Security Council, General Bobetko issues orders to

    12 Major General Roso to strengthen his position in

    13 Tomislavgrad, a town in Bosnia-Herzegovina; he moves

    14 Colonel Milivoj Petkovic to Tomislavgrad and notifies

    15 General Roso that he is requesting the Minister of

    16 Defence of Croatia to visit the town of Tomislavgrad to

    17 use his authority to eliminate all groups and

    18 individuals who claim to act on the Croatian Minister's

    19 authority.

    20 Document 16 --

    21 JUDGE JORDA: You're going a little quickly

    22 there. I'm trying to follow you in English at the same

    23 time. This is the fifth member -- what is the last

    24 part you say there? Will be replaced what?

    25 MR. CAYLEY: This is document 15,

  45. 1Mr. President, and if you note in paragraph 5 --

    2 JUDGE JORDA: All right. I see. All right.

    3 Fine.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: The General, General Janko

    5 Bobetko, is notified --

    6 JUDGE JORDA: I don't go quite as quickly as

    7 you do when it comes to reading English. Excuse me.

    8 I'm trying to follow what you're doing and to get to

    9 the essentials. It's all right. I see where you are.

    10 Go ahead, go ahead.

    11 Yes, okay. I wanted to learn English so

    12 badly that I didn't even look at the French text.

    13 Thank you very much. Go ahead. Go to 17. All right.

    14 MR. CAYLEY: Moving ahead now to document 16.

    15 On the 19th of May of 1992, and this document

    16 is in French, General Bobetko, as commander of the

    17 southern front command of the Croatian army,

    18 establishes a forward command post for Central Bosnia

    19 covering the municipalities of Busovaca, Vitez, Novi

    20 Travnik, Travnik, Bugonjo, Gornji Vakuf, Prozor,

    21 Tomislavgrad and Posusje, and appoints Brigadier Zarko

    22 Tole as commander of the IZM Central Bosnia.

    23 Document 17. On the 10th of June of 1992,

    24 Gojko Susak, the Minister of Defence of the Republic of

    25 Croatia, sends a number of personnel and equipment of

  46. 1the 101st Brigade of the National Guard of Croatia to

    2 the southern command of the Croatian army on temporary

    3 duty. These individuals are ordered to report to

    4 General Bobetko.

    5 In document 18, you will see a document of

    6 the 10th of June of 1992 in which Mr. Dario Kordic,

    7 from the Central Bosnian HVO regional headquarters,

    8 issues a permanent pass to an individual in Vares in

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina giving free passage both through the

    10 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna and the Republic of

    11 Croatia.

    12 Document 19 is another order from General

    13 Bobetko. This time the Croatian lieutenant-general

    14 issues an order that HVO, Croatian Defence Council

    15 military ID cards are to be issued to members of the

    16 HVO by June the 30th of 1992, and you will see that in

    17 paragraph 2.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Please go a little bit more

    19 slowly, please. The interpreters are having a little

    20 problem following you and the Judges also.

    21 Go ahead, please.

    22 MR. CAYLEY: Within this order, he issues a

    23 direct order to the main headquarters of the HVO in

    24 Grude. Now, again, you will note that the printed

    25 heading on this document is Croatian community of

  47. 1Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council.

    2 Document 20. On the same day, General

    3 Bobetko issues orders to the operative group for

    4 southeast Herzegovina for operations in

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. These orders are issued from his

    6 Ploca forward headquarters in the Republic of Croatia.

    7 Both the HV and the HVO are being deployed by virtue of

    8 these orders. He orders deployment of HVO armour,

    9 tanks in the Stolac region, a coordinated military

    10 operation using both HV and HVO military assets in

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina under the command of the Croatian

    12 general.

    13 Document 21. On the 15th of June of 1992,

    14 another order is issued in which units of the HVO and

    15 the HVO (sic) are deployed together by General Bobetko,

    16 and you will find a similar order of the 18th of June

    17 of 1992 in document 22.

    18 I have just noticed a mistake in the

    19 transcript where it's stated: "On the 15th of June of

    20 1992, another order is issued in which units of the HVO

    21 and the HVO are deployed together." It should be "HVO

    22 and HV are deployed together."

    23 Move ahead now to document 23. This is a

    24 document of the 24th of July of 1992 in which, General

    25 then, Colonel Blaskic issues an order on behalf of the

  48. 1commander of the Central Bosnia OSHQ to send HVO troops

    2 to Croatia for training in reconnaissance missions.

    3 Document 24. On the 11th of September of

    4 1992, the military post in Split, in the Republic of

    5 Croatia, confirms the delivery of a large quantity of

    6 ammunition to the HVO in Bugojno in

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The receipt is signed by a colonel

    8 in the Croatian army. He signs the stamp of 4th Guards

    9 Brigade of the National Guard Corps of the Ministry of

    10 Defence for the Republic of Croatia.

    11 Document 25.

    12 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.

    13 MR. CAYLEY: My apologies. I'll go

    14 deliberately slowly now.

    15 An order of the 19th of September, 1992,

    16 issued by Colonel Blaskic confirms that weapons and

    17 ammunition are moving from the Republic of Croatia to

    18 the HVO in Bosnia-Herzegovina and from the HVO in

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Republic of Croatia.

    20 Movement of military material from Bosnia-Herzegovina

    21 to the Republic of Croatia requires the signature of

    22 Mr. Dario Kordic or Colonel Blaskic.

    23 Document 26. On the 5th of October, 1992,

    24 Colonel Blaskic, as commander of the Central Bosnian

    25 operative zone, issues an order to commanders of his

  49. 1subordinate HVO municipal headquarters to provide to

    2 him the personal data of HV Croatian army officers in

    3 these HVO municipal headquarters.

    4 You will see in document 27 a document of the

    5 6th of October of 1992. A similar order is issued by

    6 another HVO operative zone commander. This order makes

    7 it clear that Croatian army officers serving in the HVO

    8 cannot leave the HVO without a direct order from the

    9 Ministry of Defence in the Republic of Croatia.

    10 If we could now move into private session,

    11 because the next series of documents are confidential?

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Continue, Mr. Cayley.

    13 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    14 (Private session)

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    12 (Open session)

    13 MR. CAYLEY: The balance of the documents are

    14 all, I think, almost exclusively documents from the

    15 United Nations, and I'd like to draw your attention,

    16 Your Honours, to a number of these documents. Document

    17 96 is a letter dated the 1st of February, 1994 from the

    18 Secretary-General addressed to the President of the

    19 Security Council. On page 1 of that letter, and I

    20 quote from the Secretary-General: "The Croatian army

    21 has directly supported the HVO in terms of manpower,

    22 equipment, and weapons for some time. Initially, the

    23 level of support was limited to individual and

    24 subunits, many of them volunteers. As the offensives

    25 of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Government forces against

  2. 1the HVO have become successful, the numbers of Croatian

    2 soldiers appear to have increased. It is assessed that

    3 in total there is the equivalent of three Croatian

    4 Brigades of regular Army personnel in Bosnia and

    5 Herzegovina, approximately 3.000 to 5.000 (this is an

    6 estimation, as it is impossible with UNPROFOR's assets

    7 to obtain required information for a more accurate

    8 account). There have been confirmed reports by

    9 UNPROFOR personnel that elements (troops and equipment)

    10 from the following Croatian Army (HV) units are indeed

    11 present in central and southern Bosnia and

    12 Herzegovina. 1 Guards Brigade; 2 Guards Brigade; 5

    13 Guards Brigade; 7 Guards Brigade; 114 Brigade; 116

    14 Brigade, 4th battalion; and Special military police."

    15 The report then goes on to explain the level of

    16 equipment being provided by the HV.

    17 On the same day that this letter is written,

    18 the permanent representative of the Republic of Croatia

    19 responds to the President of the Security Council, and

    20 he states, and this is document 97: "My Government

    21 does not deny that there are regular Croatian army

    22 troops in the border areas between the Republic of

    23 Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    24 They are stationed there in accordance with the Joint

    25 Agreement of 12 July, 1992 between my Government and

  3. 1the Government of the Republic of Bosnia and

    2 Herzegovina."

    3 Then in the final paragraph on that page, "My

    4 Government remains concerned about the welfare of

    5 ethnic Croat citizens of the Republic of Bosnia and

    6 Herzegovina which are under siege by the army of Bosnia

    7 and Herzegovina in the Vitez, Kiseljak, Usora, and

    8 Zepce enclaves and elsewhere."

    9 Document 99 is a letter from the permanent

    10 representative of Croatia enclosing a letter from Mate

    11 Granic, the Deputy Prime Minister of Croatia, a

    12 Minister for Foreign Affairs, and this letter is

    13 addressed to the Secretary-General of the United

    14 Nations. Mr. Granic says the following, and this is on

    15 page 3 in the pre-penultimate paragraph: "The Republic

    16 of Croatia is ready to call off the units of the

    17 Croatian Army on the left bank of the Neretva River and

    18 elements of the Croatian Army on the right bank of the

    19 Neretva."

    20 In the next paragraph he states:

    21 "Furthermore, as a measure aimed at easing the

    22 tensions in the area, the Government of the Republic of

    23 Croatia would advise the command of the Croatian

    24 Defence Council (HVO) to withdraw a part of its heavy

    25 weaponry in central Bosnia and to declare a cease-fire

  4. 1in the town of Mostar unilaterally."

    2 On the 17th of February, 1994, and this is

    3 document 100, the Secretary-General reverts to the

    4 Security Council, and he states the following, and this

    5 is on the final three paragraphs of page 2 of this

    6 document: "As of 17 February, UNPROFOR has not yet

    7 received any concrete proposals for a monitoring

    8 arrangement nor have any of the troop movements

    9 indicated in the above letter been observed.

    10 "In the absence of any observation of HV

    11 withdrawal movements beyond that on 10 February,

    12 UNPROFOR continues to assess that there still may be

    13 5.000 HV troops in Bosnia and Herzegovina, although no

    14 HV command posts nor any full HV brigades operating as

    15 formed units have been identified.

    16 "It appears that HV troops are now being more

    17 circumspect and may be removing their HV insignia while

    18 in Bosnia and Herzegovina and replacing them with those

    19 of the HVO. UNPROFOR believes that HV insignia on a

    20 number of vehicles have been erased or repainted."

    21 Move ahead to document 102 where the

    22 permanent representative of Croatia to the United

    23 Nations addresses the Secretary-General and states in

    24 paragraph 2: "Croatian volunteers that had been

    25 situated in the Uskoplje-Rama area in Central Bosnia

  5. 1have returned to the Republic of Croatia on 10 February

    2 1994. The convoy consisting of 44 vehicles with 12

    3 heavy artillery weapons, 3 buses, and 650 volunteers

    4 crossed the Kamensko border-pass at 1700 hours and

    5 proceeded towards Split.

    6 "On 16 February at 1000, elements of the

    7 Croatian Army left the wider Neretva River region and

    8 have been repositioned in the Metkovic area on the

    9 territory of the Republic of Croatia. I have received

    10 information from my authorities that amongst the

    11 aforesaid elements of the Croatian Army were 600

    12 soldiers, 4 battle tanks and 6 heavy artillery

    13 pieces."

    14 Document 106 is the actual cease-fire

    15 agreement between the Bosnian army forces and the HVO

    16 which is signed by the Chief of Staff, General Ante

    17 Roso, and the commander of the Bosnian army in Zagreb.

    18 Now, in this letter, and I don't intend to

    19 read it out, Mario Nobilo, who is the Permanent

    20 Representative of Croatia to the United Nations at this

    21 time, speaks of the possible presence of Croatian army

    22 units in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    23 If we could now go back into private session

    24 for one or two final documents?

    25 (Private session)

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