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  1. 1 Monday, 6th July, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 2.36 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Registrar,

    5 have the accused brought in, please.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: As you know, this is not going

    8 to be a full week. In principle, starting on

    9 Wednesday, I don't actually know whether the plenary is

    10 going to last for two or three days, but there is going

    11 to be a shortened week. That's how it is.

    12 First of all, does everybody hear me? I

    13 suppose everybody does. I would like to say good

    14 afternoon to the interpreters and to the attorneys both

    15 from the Prosecution and the Defence. Does the Defence

    16 hear me? General Blaskic, do you hear me?

    17 THE ACCUSED: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

    18 Yes, I can hear you.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I believe that the

    20 Prosecutor would now exercise his right of reply in the

    21 continued examination of Colonel Morsink, and it was

    22 Mr. Harmon who was doing it

    23 (The witness entered court)

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Good afternoon,

    25 Lieutenant-Colonel. Did you have a nice weekend? Did

  2. 1you rest up -- or I shouldn't say weekend in French, I

    2 should say fin de semaine, weekend. If you did, we can

    3 continue now, not the examination-in-chief or the

    4 cross-examination, but the right of reply, since you

    5 were called in by the Prosecution, Mr. Harmon is going

    6 to ask you some questions. I see that Mr. Dubuisson is

    7 looking at me. I must have made an error.

    8 Mr. Harmon?

    9 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Mr. President,

    10 Your Honours, and counsel. Could I have Exhibit 296

    11 placed on the ELMO and could I also have Exhibit 414

    12 given to the witness?

    13 WITNESS: HENDRIK MORSINK (continued)

    14 Re-examined by Mr. Harmon

    15 Q. Colonel Morsink, first I'd like to return to

    16 the issue of HVO, HDZ propaganda that was directed to

    17 the Croats living in the Zenica area, and your

    18 investigation into it as well as your findings that the

    19 claims about atrocities and mass destruction of Croat

    20 homes of the Muslims were exaggerated and false.

    21 In respect of your investigation into the

    22 Croat villages and the destruction that related to

    23 those villages, you were asked by Mr. Hayman the

    24 following questions, and I'm referring to the English

    25 translation of the unofficial transcript, I'm reading

  3. 1from page 9951, lines 5 through 7 and lines 11 through

    2 14: You were asked the following questions.

    3 Question: You have told us that the church

    4 at Guca Gora was not touched in the course of that

    5 action; is that correct?

    6 And your answer was: That's correct. I

    7 visited that church myself after the fighting passed

    8 from the north across Guca Gora in a southern

    9 direction. The next question you were asked was --

    10 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.

    11 MR. HARMON:

    12 The next question you were asked was: And

    13 that neighbouring Croat communities, no wanton

    14 destruction or attack on civilian structures by the BiH

    15 army, or was there such conduct in the Guca Gora region

    16 generally? And you answered that neither you nor your

    17 colleagues saw extensive damage in those Croat

    18 communities in and around Zenica.

    19 Q. Do you remember that line of questioning,

    20 Colonel?

    21 A. I remember that line, yes.

    22 Q. The next thing; Mr. Hayman directed your

    23 attention to Exhibit 296 which is located to your right

    24 on the ELMO, and he then referred you to a paragraph,

    25 paragraph 1 of Prosecutor's Exhibit --

  4. 1JUDGE JORDA: Could you speak a little more

    2 slowly, please, Mr. Harmon, for the sake of the

    3 interpreters?

    4 MR. HARMON: I apologise. And apologies to

    5 the interpreters as well.

    6 You were next directed, Mr. Morsink, to

    7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 414, first paragraph, Mr. Hayman

    8 read to you the following sentence: "UNPROFOR further

    9 report the Croat village of Dolac as deserted and over

    10 100 houses burnt."

    11 Q. Do you remember that question?

    12 A. I remember that question as well, yes.

    13 Q. And you were also asked whether that very

    14 same day, which was the 8th of June, it was reported by

    15 UNPROFOR that in the village of Dolac these 100 houses

    16 had been burnt. Now, Colonel Morsink, would you turn

    17 to Prosecutor's Exhibit 296, and using the pointer,

    18 could you point to the village of Dolac. It's in

    19 Prosecutor's Exhibit 296.

    20 A. (indicated).

    21 Q. Now is that the Dolac that is referred to in

    22 paragraph 1 of Prosecutor's Exhibit 414, that is, is

    23 that the Dolac where UNPROFOR reported that over 100

    24 houses were burnt?

    25 A. It's not Dolac.

  5. 1Q. Is the village of Dolac, where over 100

    2 houses were reported burning, even located in the

    3 Zenica municipality?

    4 A. No, it is not.

    5 Q. Now, again, would you return to Prosecutor's

    6 Exhibit 414, which is -- I refer to paragraph number

    7 1. Let me return to the complete -- let me read the

    8 complete sentence then that was read to you in part by

    9 Mr. Hayman: "UNPROFOR further report the Croat village

    10 of Dolac (YJ1399) as deserted and over 100 houses

    11 burnt."

    12 Which municipality, Colonel Morsink, is Dolac

    13 with the coordinates YJ1399 located?

    14 A. According to the grid, Dolac is located in

    15 the vicinity of Travnik.

    16 Q. With the assistance of the usher, if I could

    17 have the following exhibit marked and placed on the

    18 ELMO?

    19 THE REGISTRAR: This is 429.

    20 MR. HARMON:

    21 Q. Colonel Morsink, would you kindly explain to

    22 the Judges what is represented in Prosecutor's Exhibit

    23 429?

    24 A. In the vicinity of Travnik, you can see two

    25 Dolacs that we appreciated as being one small village,

  6. 1one is called Dolac and the other one is called Dolac

    2 Na Lasvi, it's something like near the Lasva River.

    3 The correct way is to read the grid is first find the

    4 two letters, they are placed here in this part, that

    5 means 100 kilometre square. In the UTM system. Then

    6 you take the vertical, 13, and then the horizontal,

    7 that's 99, so the correct grid of this Dolac should be

    8 YJ1399.

    9 Q. That is the area where it was reported 100

    10 Croat houses burning; is that correct?

    11 A. That's correct.

    12 Q. Would you turn to the other coordinates

    13 located on Prosecutor's Exhibit 429 and explain to the

    14 Judges those coordinates?

    15 A. First we find the two letters again, that's

    16 YK, then we find the vertical, that is 27, and

    17 horizontal, that's 01, so this Dolac would be YK2710

    18 (sic).

    19 Q. And YK2701 is the Dolac that's referred to in

    20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 296; is that correct?

    21 A. That's correct, that's the same Dolac, yes.

    22 Q. Could you tell the Judges, please, Colonel

    23 Morsink, what was happening on the 8th of June in and

    24 around the Dolac that is marked with the coordinates

    25 YJ1399?

  7. 1A. According to our knowledge at that time,

    2 there was major fighting going on in the outskirts of

    3 Travnik, so that's exactly this Dolac area here, the

    4 HVO used to control a major checkpoint on the main road

    5 from Vitez to Travnik, and the fighting was about this

    6 checkpoint and about the frontlines moving in the town

    7 of Dolac, so there was a major fight going on in Dolac

    8 itself.

    9 Q. So the Dolac where the 100 houses were

    10 reported burning was a major front-line battle ground;

    11 is that correct?

    12 A. That's correct, it was a real battle ground

    13 at that time.

    14 Q. And, in fact, later when Dolac with

    15 coordinates YJ1399 was visited by ECMM, they assessed,

    16 in fact, that approximately 15 to 20 houses had been

    17 burnt; is that correct?

    18 A. That's correct, so that's far less than the

    19 100 first reported by UNPROFOR.

    20 Q. And did they also make an assessment on the

    21 Catholic church that was in Dolac at coordinates

    22 YJ1399?

    23 A. That's correct. The church is even on the

    24 map. This church was hit by a single mortar round and,

    25 because of that mortar impact, damaged, the roof was

  8. 1damaged and part of the interior was damaged. There

    2 was no sign of fighting directly targeted on this

    3 church.

    4 Q. And that was assessed to be not intentional

    5 damage; is that correct?

    6 A. That was assessed by us as not intentionally

    7 damaged.

    8 Q. Therefore, Colonel Morsink, in respect of

    9 ECMM's investigation into the events in and around Guca

    10 Gora on the 8th of June, 1993, you stand by your

    11 previous testimony and by ambassador Thebault's

    12 conclusion that the allegations of atrocities or ethnic

    13 cleansing made by the Bosnian Croats are intentionally

    14 exaggerated, when not completely false?

    15 A. That's correct, I still stand by that, yes.

    16 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we would move to

    17 admit Prosecutor's Exhibit 429.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: No objection? No discussion?

    19 All right. Then this exhibit will be admitted under

    20 the number that was assigned to it.

    21 MR. HARMON:

    22 Let me turn to a different subject now,

    23 please, Colonel Morsink. You were asked questions

    24 about Prosecutor's Exhibit 418 which is a letter from

    25 Mate Boban to General Morillon which is dated the 22nd

  9. 1of June, 1993, in which Mate Boban alleges that the

    2 Croatian people of Central Bosnia were on the verge of

    3 being --

    4 JUDGE JORDA: What number is that, please?

    5 Oh, yes, I have it here, yes, yes, I have it. 418; is

    6 that correct?

    7 MR. HARMON: That's right, Mr. President.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Please go ahead.

    9 MR. HARMON:

    10 In Prosecutor's Exhibit 418, Mate Boban says,

    11 "The Croatian people of Central Bosnia are on the

    12 verge of extinction and being expelled from areas where

    13 they have lived for over 13 centuries. UNPROFOR and

    14 yourself have witnessed the barbaric Muslim devastation

    15 and desecration of sacred Catholic objects of our

    16 people, and it goes on referring to Guca Gora and other

    17 locations.

    18 Now, could you again refer to Prosecutor's

    19 Exhibit 414, specifically the first page of that

    20 document, and the report authored by Ambassador

    21 Thebault. Ambassador Thebault in Prosecutor's Exhibit

    22 414 referred to a public claim by Mate Boban that was

    23 issued prior to the 8th of June, 1993, wherein Mate

    24 Boban appealed to the International Community to save

    25 the Croats from extinction.

  10. 1A. That's correct, that's what Mr. Thebault says

    2 in his special report.

    3 Q. And is the tone of the report from Ambassador

    4 Thebault of what Mate Boban had to say and the tone of

    5 what Mate Boban had to say in Prosecutor's Exhibit 418

    6 consistent with the tone that you read in then Colonel

    7 Blaskic's Call to Help which was dated the 4th of May,

    8 1993?

    9 A. All these letters fit into the same

    10 structure, same attempts to -- according to my opinion,

    11 to mislead their own people and to mislead the

    12 international opinion.

    13 Q. Colonel Morsink, I'd like to turn now to

    14 Defence Exhibit 145, and if that could be given to the

    15 witness?

    16 Now, this exhibit, Colonel Morsink, is a

    17 council of Europe 6th information report on war damage

    18 to the cultural war damage to Bosnia and Herzegovina

    19 presented by the committee on culture and education,

    20 and it's a report on a fact-finding mission from the

    21 30th of May to the 22nd of June, 1994, by Dr. Colin

    22 Kaiser.

    23 In your cross-examination, Counsel read a

    24 paragraph from this document to you. The paragraph he

    25 read is as follows: "Guca Gora. The civil and

  11. 1military BiH authorities in Travnik permitted the

    2 consultant to visit this site. The village, which

    3 contained many traditional farmhouses and buildings,

    4 was taken from the HVO, perhaps by Mujahedin soldiers,

    5 and it was ethnically cleansed of Croats with a lot of

    6 burning. Two weeks later, the ABiH occupied the

    7 Franciscan monastery which it still occupies."

    8 Now, let me -- have you had a chance to

    9 review this document, Defence Exhibit 145?

    10 A. You showed it to me later on.

    11 Q. Did you read the paragraph that followed that

    12 particular paragraph?

    13 A. I did, yes.

    14 Q. Now, that following paragraph indicates, does

    15 it not, that while Dr. Kaiser, the consultant who

    16 authored this report, could not visit the interior of

    17 the church and the monastery buildings, he could see

    18 that the exterior and grounds had suffered only

    19 insignificant damage. Is that what he reports?

    20 A. That's correct, that's what it says.

    21 Q. Does he also say that -- further on: "Other

    22 items of value (paintings, liturgical items,

    23 et cetera), were evacuated to Travnik where they are

    24 safeguarded by the local authorities." Does he say

    25 that as well?

  12. 1A. That's correct, yes.

    2 Q. Now, you visited this particular site, this

    3 Franciscan monastery, many times; is that correct?

    4 A. That's correct.

    5 Q. Did you go into the interior of this

    6 monastery?

    7 A. I went in twice.

    8 Q. And the two times that you went in, which was

    9 prior to Dr. Kaiser's visit, was the interior side of

    10 the monastery damaged in any way?

    11 A. No, it was undamaged.

    12 Q. And similarly was the exterior of the

    13 monastery damaged or undamaged when you saw it?

    14 A. It was undamaged.

    15 Q. Now, further down in Defence Exhibit 145, I'd

    16 like to read a paragraph to you. It starts with the

    17 word "Kruscica: Unfinished new mosque hit in facade

    18 perhaps by recoilless canon (HVO). Roof was also

    19 damaged but fixed. An example of deliberate mosque

    20 shooting since the houses in this largely traditional

    21 village seemed to have suffered little from shelling."

    22 Now, Colonel Morsink, were you aware of this

    23 attack that is referred to in Dr. Kaiser's report?

    24 A. Yes, I think that's the same attack as I

    25 addressed to Mario Cerkez when I was there in that

  13. 1area. I think it was the beginning of May when I was

    2 asked -- when I asked Mario Cerkez why HVO soldiers

    3 were shooting with anti-tank rockets at the mosque in

    4 Kruscica. I believe it was the same mosque.

    5 Q. What was Mario Cerkez' reply to you?

    6 A. His answer, interpreted by my interpreter,

    7 was, "I could ask the other side the same thing."

    8 Q. Did he appear to be concerned about an

    9 allegation made by you that the mosque in Kruscica had

    10 been deliberately targeted?

    11 A. No, not at all.

    12 Q. Let me turn to a different subject in the

    13 cross-examination. You were asked some questions about

    14 your attempts to visit the village of Gomionica on the

    15 27th of April, 1993, and not being able to enter the

    16 village to inspect it. Based, according to a soldier

    17 at the roadblock, on the orders of Ivica Rajic. Was

    18 Ivica Rajic the HVO Brigade commander in Kiseljak?

    19 A. He was during a certain period. They told me

    20 that later on he was killed at the frontlines.

    21 Q. Who was Ivica's Rajic's superior officer?

    22 A. I think Mr. Blaskic was his superior officer.

    23 Q. Now, I'd like to return again to the subject

    24 of Kruscica, and specifically your testimony about your

    25 efforts to provide Kruscica with humanitarian aid.

  14. 1Your testimony on direct examination was that you

    2 attempted to deliver humanitarian aid to Kruscica for

    3 approximately five weeks, and that the excuse that was

    4 given to you by HVO officials was that the road to

    5 Kruscica was being blocked by angry civilians; is that

    6 correct?

    7 A. That's correct.

    8 Q. And you further testified that you and -- I'm

    9 sorry, that you fully informed the HVO, including

    10 deputy commander Nakic, of your efforts to resupply

    11 Kruscica; is that correct?

    12 A. That's correct. On more than one occasion

    13 and to different HVO representatives.

    14 Q. Now, you also testified that approximately

    15 five weeks later, you succeeded in entering into

    16 Kruscica, but this time by an alternate parallel road

    17 that was controlled by the HVO and of which you were

    18 unaware; is that correct?

    19 A. That's also correct.

    20 Q. My question is this: Was this alternate

    21 parallel road the one that had been blocked by angry

    22 civilians or was this a completely different road?

    23 A. It was a completely different road. The main

    24 road was blocked by angry civilians, and this appeared

    25 to be another parallel road.

  15. 1Q. In your opinion, Colonel Morsink, could this

    2 alternate parallel road have been opened by the HVO at

    3 any time during the five weeks preceding your actual

    4 delivery of aid on the 21st of June, 1993?

    5 A. Yes, I'm sure it could have been opened at

    6 any time.

    7 Q. And why do you say that?

    8 A. Because during that period of five weeks, the

    9 front-line didn't seem to move, there was no major

    10 fighting going on in the outskirts of Kruscica or

    11 Vitez, so I think the situation in the beginning of the

    12 five-week period was exactly the same as at the end.

    13 Q. Now, you testified briefly about the Busovaca

    14 Joint Commission, and you said that that was -- that

    15 that commission had been created in part because of

    16 serious violations of international humanitarian law

    17 that had occurred in Busovaca in January of 1993,

    18 violations which in part were committed by the HVO; is

    19 that correct?

    20 A. That's what I was told by my colleague

    21 monitors, yes.

    22 Q. Now, if a commander is aware that his

    23 subordinates have a propensity toward committing these

    24 kind of serious violations of humanitarian law and if

    25 the commander later plans and organises a large-scale

  16. 1and systematic operation directed at Muslim villages in

    2 the same community and adjacent communities, what

    3 should the commander do, in your opinion, to ensure

    4 that these same violations of international

    5 humanitarian law do not re-occur?

    6 MR. HAYMAN: Beyond the scope,

    7 Mr. President. If counsel wants to repeat his direct,

    8 so be it. If so, it should be with the consent of the

    9 Trial Chamber.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, either reformulate

    11 the question or it is true that you're somewhat outside

    12 the scope of the cross-examination. You're redoing an

    13 examination-in-chief here.

    14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'll move on.

    15 Q. Let me turn to the subject of Djuti, Colonel

    16 Morsink. You testified that Djuti had been described

    17 to you as an uncontrolled element of the HVO.

    18 A. That's correct.

    19 Q. You further testified that you met Djuti once

    20 in the presence of deputy commander Nakic and brigade

    21 commander Leotar. My question is; where did that

    22 meeting take place?

    23 A. That meeting took place at the headquarters

    24 of Mr. Leotar, the Brigade commander, and I believe it

    25 was in a small village called Bilici north-west of

  17. 1Travnik.

    2 Q. So that was an HVO headquarters, is that

    3 correct?

    4 A. That's correct, it was in the Brigade

    5 headquarters.

    6 Q. Would Djuti have been arrested by HVO when

    7 you saw him in the headquarters on the 2nd of June,

    8 1993?

    9 A. I think so, yes. It was HVO controlled

    10 area. There were a lot of guards in these

    11 headquarters, so he could easily have been arrested.

    12 Q. Let me turn to the subject of the

    13 humanitarian aid that was confiscated in Busovaca. You

    14 testified that on the 2nd of July, 1993, you met with

    15 Pakco (phoen) Ljubesic who was the police chief. You

    16 asked for the release of aid, and Mr. Ljubesic told you

    17 that he first had to ask permission from his superiors

    18 in Mostar; is that correct?

    19 A. That's correct.

    20 Q. You were then asked to return the following

    21 day, and you did, and, in fact, on the following day

    22 you testified that you met an HVO brigade commander by

    23 the name of Grubesic, and he told you that based on the

    24 orders from the HVO headquarters in Vitez, that the

    25 seized humanitarian aid would be released if the threat

  18. 1from Zenica was eliminated; is that correct?

    2 A. That's correct. It was linked to the

    3 roadblock just put there that very day.

    4 Q. Now, is the decision of the HVO not to

    5 release the humanitarian aid until the military threat

    6 from Zenica was removed consistent with Colonel Blaskic

    7 having tactical control over the military police in his

    8 theatre of operations?

    9 MR. HAYMAN: Beyond the scope again,

    10 Mr. President, and I object to the way Counsel is

    11 leading the witness. Admittedly, some leading has to

    12 occur on redirect, but the leading here is beyond

    13 anything I think I've ever seen in a court of law on

    14 either direct or redirect.

    15 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I don't believe

    16 the examination is beyond the scope in this

    17 particular ...

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Try to reformulate your

    19 question, Mr. Harmon, so as not to give Mr. Hayman the

    20 impression that this is the first court he's ever been

    21 in when his opponent is going somewhat outside the

    22 scope of the initial examination. Try to reformulate

    23 the question.

    24 MR. HARMON:

    25 Q. Colonel Morsink, when you returned on the 3rd

  19. 1of July and you were told by the HVO brigade commander

    2 that there was a connection between the release of

    3 humanitarian aid and the removal of a threat from

    4 Zenica --

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment, please. For the

    6 time being, we are within the scope of the

    7 cross-examination, Mr. Hayman. That's what -- for the

    8 time being, this is the scope of the examination. Is

    9 that not so, Mr. Hayman?

    10 All right. Continue now, Mr. Harmon.

    11 MR. HARMON:

    12 Q. In your opinion, then, in your view, was that

    13 consistent with Colonel Blaskic having tactical control

    14 over military police in his area of operations?

    15 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, here the problem

    16 is new --

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment, please. He

    18 hasn't completed with his question. I'm trying to see

    19 whether your objection is valid. At least let me

    20 listen to the question all the way to the end. I

    21 specifically tried to set up kind of a split here in

    22 the middle for the first part of the sentence, the

    23 question is within the scope of the cross-examination,

    24 at least let me hear the end of the question.

    25 Mr. Harmon, please start again. We are

  20. 1within the scope of the cross-examination when it has

    2 to do with knowing whether we're speaking about

    3 humanitarian aid which was interrupted.

    4 Mr. Harmon, will you continue with your

    5 question, please.

    6 MR. HARMON:

    7 Q. My question, Mr. President, is a question

    8 that was touched upon by Counsel. That is the tactical

    9 control of a commander in an area of operations, and my

    10 question to Colonel Morsink is: Was the fact that the

    11 police chief told you he had to get permission from

    12 Busovaca -- I'm sorry, from Mostar, and then you

    13 returned the following day when you were told by a

    14 military commander, a brigade commander, that there was

    15 a connection, that you couldn't get back the aid until

    16 a threat, a military threat from Zenica, was removed,

    17 suggests, does it not, that the permission received by

    18 the police chief was overridden as a tactical matter by

    19 the commander in the operations zone. Is that how you

    20 would interpret that, Colonel?

    21 A. That's correct. I think the police matter

    22 was overruled by the military commander in theatre.

    23 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, may I state my

    24 objection now?

    25 JUDGE JORDA: The question is proper.

  21. 1MR. HARMON:

    2 Q. Colonel, is it normal that an operation zone

    3 commander --

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I said that the

    5 question was proper. If you want to object to

    6 something else, about something else ...

    7 MR. HAYMAN: I just want to state for the

    8 record why I object, and it is because new opinions of

    9 an expert nature are being elicited from the witness on

    10 redirect. We will never have the opportunity to

    11 cross-examine the witness on those new opinions, and I

    12 think that is wrong.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, we are being very

    14 attentive. On various occasions I have had the

    15 opportunity to say that the right of rebuttal must be

    16 part of the scope of the cross-examination and that the

    17 rule that the cross-examination must be part of the

    18 examination-in-chief is not a mathematical formula.

    19 You understand that when you yourself bring in your

    20 witnesses.

    21 Things are not absolutely precise. Each time

    22 the judge has to hear the objections and to decide in

    23 respect of that objection whether there is a truth here

    24 that has to be got at. Of course, sometimes I myself

    25 have to consult with my colleagues, but it does seem to

  22. 1me that in this particular case, this is a field -- a

    2 scope which was covered by your own cross-examination.

    3 All of this is now in the transcript in order to

    4 accommodate your wishes, and this has not, however,

    5 changed the position of the Judges.

    6 Mr. Harmon, please continue.

    7 MR. HARMON:

    8 Q. Is it normal that an operation zone commander

    9 would have tactical control over units in his area, all

    10 units in his area of responsibility?

    11 A. I think it's necessary that he has tactical

    12 control over all units in his area.

    13 Q. Counsel for the Defence also showed you a

    14 film and asked you to identify an individual, and the

    15 film was taken at a location known as "the bungalow"

    16 the night before the attack on the village of Ahmici

    17 which occurred on the 16th of April, 1993.

    18 Based on your knowledge of military

    19 structures, would a military police unit that is

    20 involved in a well-organised and coordinated attack be

    21 outside the tactical control of the operation zone

    22 commander?

    23 A. I think that's impossible to operate.

    24 Q. Can you tell the Judges why?

    25 A. Well, if a commander has to organise a

  23. 1military operation in his area of responsibility, then

    2 he has to control all his elements, he has to be in

    3 tactical command over all his elements. There cannot

    4 be any exception, with units doing other operations on

    5 somebody else's initiative, so it should be under the

    6 command of one person and one person only.

    7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I have no

    8 additional questions of this witness. I have concluded

    9 my redirect examination.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. Very

    11 well, Lieutenant-Colonel. The Judges will ask you some

    12 questions themselves or for some additional

    13 clarifications which they would like to have from you.

    14 First I turn to Judge Riad. Judge Riad?

    15 JUDGE RIAD: I have a certain number of

    16 questions to ask you if you are in a position to

    17 enlighten me, enlighten us, although definitely you

    18 have been very clear, and I do not mean by that that

    19 you were not clear, but there is always room for more

    20 clarification.

    21 I'll start from the beginning, although it

    22 goes back in time. I hope I haven't forgotten.

    23 You spoke of a certain Mr. Pedersen who asked

    24 for an investigation -- who once asked for an

    25 investigation, I think that was after the truck bomb in

  24. 1Vitez, and Cerkez accepted the investigation idea but

    2 nothing has been done. Can you tell me what is Cerkez

    3 in relationship to General Blaskic?

    4 A. As far as I know, Mr. Cerkez, Mario Cerkez,

    5 was a Brigade commander of the HVO brigade in Vitez,

    6 located in Vitez with its headquarters in Vitez, and he

    7 was subordinate to Mr. Blaskic being the commander of

    8 the operational zone middle Bosnia.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: So he represented General

    10 Blaskic?

    11 A. That's correct.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: And you think the investigation

    13 would be carried out by Mr. Cerkez in the name of

    14 Colonel Blaskic?

    15 A. According to our marshal law, the Brigade

    16 commander is responsible for his own area of

    17 operations, in this case being the town or the vicinity

    18 of Vitez, so I think it would be appropriate if

    19 Mr. Mario Cerkez had done the investigation. If he

    20 didn't have any means to do so, then he could ask for

    21 support from his superior. He would at least have

    22 reported to his superior that he had done the

    23 investigation.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: This leads me to another

    25 question. Suppose he did not report to his superior.

  25. 1Was the incident so remote from General Blaskic that he

    2 would not have taken knowledge of it?

    3 A. I think this truck bomb was so severe that we

    4 could hear it from 5 kilometres distance and the

    5 location of the truck bomb was only 500 metres away

    6 from the headquarters of Mr. Blaskic, so he must have

    7 heard it, or at least his soldiers in his headquarters

    8 must have heard it.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: Even if Mr. Cerkez did not

    10 report it to him?

    11 A. I think so, yes. This was such a huge

    12 explosion. Everybody in Vitez knew about it.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you were speaking always of

    14 the truck bomb in Vitez. You mentioned that the

    15 evacuation took place, there were 200 wounded or

    16 something like that, and Colonel Stewart was very angry

    17 because the HVO did not help the wounded and only the

    18 British battalion did the evacuation.

    19 Was this a normal method not to help the

    20 wounded everywhere or -- I mean, was the HVO in the

    21 habit of not participating in saving the civilians?

    22 A. Your Honour, this is the only clear occasion

    23 where HVO, according to my knowledge, failed to help.

    24 I don't know whether it happened the same thing in

    25 other occasions. But I think they were organised and

  26. 1capable of helping because they -- the civil and

    2 military government in Vitez, they were the ones who

    3 ruled the local Red Cross organisation, who ruled the

    4 other organisations like the fire brigade, and they

    5 were the ones who had the trucks, the ambulances. So

    6 if anybody could have helped, then they could have, I

    7 think.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: And they never did?

    9 A. They never did, no.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: I'm just following your

    11 testimony, so perhaps it's not related. You also

    12 mentioned that at the roadblocks, you had been refused

    13 access and even threatened at the HVO roadblocks. Now,

    14 was there any animosity between your groups and the

    15 HVO? Was there any ill-feelings? Why would they act

    16 like that?

    17 A. Sometimes there was animosity because they

    18 accused the UNHCR of bringing ammunition to the other

    19 side. They sometimes accused UNPROFOR of being

    20 partial, and they even sometimes accused us of not

    21 doing what we had promised, like freeing prisoners or

    22 removing threats from any direction.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: And there was no other reason,

    24 you think? There was no other reason for this -- for

    25 stopping you from access?

  27. 1A. Well, the reason they told us for the human

    2 roadblock was that a woman was killed in her back yard

    3 and she was shot twice. The first time she was hit,

    4 her child tried to evacuate her from the back yard into

    5 the house, and when the child was with her, she was hit

    6 again and killed in that accident, and that was such --

    7 it was a pitiful accident, everybody could feel that,

    8 and we felt the same way, and they told us that that

    9 was the reason why angry civilians blocked that road,

    10 because of this single accident.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned also that Mario

    12 Kordic threatened once to burn Kruscica totally, I

    13 think it was in case of attack?

    14 A. That was Mario Cerkez, Your Honour.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, Mario Cerkez, yes. Why was

    16 that exactly? Why did he threaten to burn the city?

    17 A. He mentioned this threat during a meeting of

    18 the local commission Vitez. During this meeting, the

    19 problem of Kruscica was raised again, and Mario Cerkez

    20 claimed that the army of BiH was bringing in new troops

    21 through the mountains on a small trail, goat trail, so

    22 not a normally-used road, and because of these fresh

    23 troops, they thought that the army of BiH were planning

    24 an attack coming from Kruscica in the direction of

    25 Vitez, I think. I'm not sure.

  28. 1JUDGE RIAD: Was Kruscica a military centre?

    2 A. There was a part of a Muslim brigade in

    3 Kruscica. I'm not sure, I think a battalion or one and

    4 a half battalions.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: Is it normal in wartime that if

    6 there is a battalion in a city, you burn the whole

    7 city?

    8 A. No, that's not normal because there were more

    9 than 4.000 civilians living in the same village.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: Was it part of the system of the

    11 HVO to burn a city if there is any weapons in it or

    12 that sort of thing?

    13 A. Well, sometimes they claimed that that was

    14 the reason why they burned down a village, like in

    15 Rotilj, the seven houses. But we had seen examples of

    16 burned-down villages already in the area, so that's the

    17 reason why we took this threat seriously.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: So it's not one of the methods

    19 of war?

    20 A. Not according to --

    21 JUDGE RIAD: -- to burn cities?

    22 A. Not according to our laws, and I think

    23 everybody should obey those laws.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: Do you think Cerkez was supposed

    25 to speak in the name of General Blaskic or his own

  29. 1name? Was he freelance?

    2 A. He could have spoken in his own name, but

    3 then he was the known brigade commander, known by

    4 everybody. We were in theatre already for a few weeks

    5 then. And he introduced himself more than once as the

    6 brigade commander. He commanded his troops, and he was

    7 in function when he said this.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: Speaking of commander, you

    9 mentioned very categorically that the command structure

    10 of the HVO in middle Bosnia was well-structured and

    11 with good communication and good execution of orders

    12 and control of telephone lines and so on. Now,

    13 speaking of commanders, who was considered the

    14 commander, when you speak of the command structure

    15 being respected?

    16 A. Mr. Blaskic was considered to be the

    17 commander.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: Not Mr. Cerkez?

    19 A. Mr. Cerkez was his subordinate, so

    20 Mr. Blaskic was the supreme commander in the area, and

    21 Mr. Cerkez was one of the brigade commanders. There

    22 were more brigade commanders, of course, I think he had

    23 five or six brigades in the area of -- from Travnik,

    24 Vitez, Busovaca, to Kiseljak, and then if you -- there

    25 were even more brigade commanders.

  30. 1JUDGE RIAD: But also all subordinate to the

    2 big commander?

    3 A. All subordinate to the big commander, yes.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: And as you said, the command

    5 structure was perfect?

    6 A. Well, "perfect" might be a little --

    7 JUDGE RIAD: Militarily speaking?

    8 A. Militarily speaking, it was well organised.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that there was a

    10 double policy, a double operation, done by the military

    11 side and the political side at the same time. This

    12 double operation was, first, the ethnic cleansing of

    13 Muslims through fear, killing, and burning; the other

    14 policy was to frighten the Croat minorities in the

    15 other places so that they might immigrate to the areas

    16 that had been ethnically cleansed. Would this be the

    17 policy of the military, or a political policy? What

    18 would be the roles-- how would you distribute the roles

    19 of the military and the political command in it?

    20 A. I think the military part would set the

    21 preconditions for it, and the part of pulling Croats

    22 from outside into the region would have been probably

    23 registered by the politicians.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: So who do you think would be the

    25 responsible -- the ultimate responsibility?

  31. 1A. That's hard to say. I'm not fully familiar

    2 with the top political structure in --

    3 JUDGE RIAD: Because you mentioned the

    4 political here. Would the burning of, for instance,

    5 Vitez or that sort of thing, be attributed to the

    6 political commander?

    7 A. No, to the military commander.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: The military commander. Now,

    9 you mentioned that Merdan -- he was a general? What

    10 was he?

    11 A. He was a deputy commander of the third corps.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: He told you several times that

    13 the 7th Muslim brigade was not under his control, and

    14 then by the end of May it became under his control, and

    15 he informs you. Now, did you receive any similar

    16 information from the HVO that certain battalions -- or

    17 certain brigades were not under the control of the

    18 commander the way Merdan told you about his 7th

    19 brigade?

    20 A. The HVO made several suggestions like that,

    21 but they were always undefined, uncontrolled elements,

    22 so no names of brigades or battalions, just as a common

    23 word "uncontrolled units" or "uncontrolled elements."

    24 JUDGE RIAD: When would they make such

    25 affirmations?

  32. 1A. When there were any allegations on war crimes

    2 during one of the meetings, they would blame the

    3 uncontrolled elements.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: As a defence?

    5 A. As a defence.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: But what Merdan told you was not

    7 a defence? Was it a defence too?

    8 A. I'm not sure. Maybe it was a defence in the

    9 beginning, but I have think he was -- he wasn't very

    10 happy about this 7th Muslim brigade and he showed us

    11 that he tried to put this brigade under his control and

    12 he finally succeeded, as he told us.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: I still have another question.

    14 You mentioned there was an exhibit, I think D151, the

    15 order of General Blaskic to stop certain violations,

    16 and the order was given to a unit under his authority.

    17 Now, such an order was supposed to be followed up by

    18 investigation or punishment. Were you informed about

    19 the result of the investigation?

    20 A. No, I was never informed of any results.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: So the order stopped at that?

    22 A. I think so, yes. I'm not sure, of course,

    23 but we were not informed about any investigations or

    24 results.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that even

  33. 1after there was an agreement, even after the agreement

    2 in Stranje by the joint military commission, digging

    3 trenches continued. Is that -- is did I understand it

    4 right or did it stop?

    5 A. No, that is correct, you understand it

    6 right. The allegations on people being forced to dig

    7 trenches went on, so I didn't see any examples myself

    8 after that, but the allegations went on.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned -- this is my

    10 last question, perhaps -- that Nakic was a

    11 representative of General Blaskic to the joint

    12 operational command, ordered unconditional cease-fire

    13 once but the local HVO commander did not obey.

    14 Were there any INCIDENTS where direct orders

    15 from Colonel Blaskic were not obeyed?

    16 A. There were very much of those examples, in

    17 fact. Every meeting started with allegations about

    18 cease-fire violations, and there was a cease-fire

    19 ordered from the end of April, so any time this

    20 cease-fire was broken, it was, in fact, an order not

    21 carried out.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: So there were orders coming from

    23 whom?

    24 A. Orders coming from Mr. Blaskic but also

    25 orders signed by General Petkovic, orders signed by

  34. 1General Halilovic, so the top military leaders signed

    2 the orders for the cease-fire, the initial orders.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: So then there is not -- you said

    4 that the HVO had a very orderly command and the orders

    5 were executed, so if they did not execute, sometimes

    6 they were not.

    7 A. Well, not all orders were executed. I

    8 think -- if there is a threat at the front-line, then

    9 soldiers are likely to answer the fire, so if they can

    10 claim that somebody else fired the first shot, then

    11 they will answer the fire and fire their weapons as

    12 well.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: To a degree, would orders be

    14 executed in this situation where there was an

    15 eyewitness, for instance, an order not to burn a

    16 village. Would it be executed?

    17 A. It has to be, yes.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: That would be executed. Which

    19 orders are you referring to now which might not be

    20 executed?

    21 A. The orders for a total cease-fire. I think

    22 they were executed according to artillery, that was

    23 well-coordinated and well-controlled by the operational

    24 zone level because it was divisional artillery directly

    25 controlled by the operational zone commander. The

  35. 1orders to stop all small arms fire, that's more

    2 difficult to control that because every soldier that is

    3 more or less in panic in his trenches, who feels afraid

    4 during the night, he it fire his weapon, and then the

    5 cease-fire is broken again.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: Then the higher level --

    7 A. On the level of battalions and brigades,

    8 maybe on company level, it should be obeyed.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: It should be obeyed.

    10 A. Yes.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Shahabuddeen? Thank you,

    13 Judge Riad.

    14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Colonel, both sides

    15 suffered loss to life, limb, and property; is that

    16 right?

    17 A. That's right.

    18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: One side suffered more

    19 extensively than another; is that correct?

    20 A. That's also correct, Your Honour.

    21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, you were there on

    22 the ground, and the Tribunal relies on your testimony

    23 to guide it.

    24 If you were a displaced Croat contemplating

    25 the prospect of returning to your home, what would

  36. 1matter to you more? Would a comparison between levels

    2 of destruction be decisive in your mind or is it the

    3 case that what would weigh with you is the fact that

    4 Croat homes and Croat lives were lost?

    5 A. I think the fact that Croat lives were lost

    6 would be --

    7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let's turn to another

    8 thing. You spoke of intentional exaggerations. By

    9 "intentional," I take it that you mean that the Croat

    10 leadership knew that the stories which they were

    11 putting about were exaggerated.

    12 A. That's correct, they knew because we reported

    13 them.

    14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you say that that

    15 applied also to General Blaskic?

    16 A. I don't know whether he was reported

    17 personally, but we reported to his representatives

    18 during meetings.

    19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, some of these

    20 intentional exaggerations were fed into the media; is

    21 that correct?

    22 A. That's correct, yes.

    23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, with what intent do

    24 you think that was done?

    25 A. I think the intent was to try to convince the

  37. 1Croat people still living in those certain areas that

    2 life was no longer safe for them there and that they

    3 should come and unite with the other Croats in Vitez or

    4 in Novi Bila or in Busovaca.

    5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: If the intent succeeded,

    6 could that conceivably affect the configuration of

    7 opposing military forces?

    8 A. I think so, yes. I think that not only

    9 civilians were pulled into the area of Vitez, also the

    10 Francopan brigade that used to be stationed in the

    11 Zenica area tried to go to Vitez as well, so the forces

    12 would come into another balance than before.

    13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, you're a military

    14 man and we're not military people. Tell me: In

    15 military academies and schools, do they run courses on

    16 the use of disinformation as a method of war?

    17 A. Sometimes in higher levels, I mean corps or

    18 division level, information, so not only disinformation

    19 but information itself is being used to sometimes

    20 mislead the enemy so it's not used to mislead the civil

    21 population but the enemy themselves and certainly not

    22 your own population.

    23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: If you would look at

    24 Exhibit -- I think, Mr. Registrar, it is 417C? Would

    25 you look at 417C? It is dated 14th June, 1993.

  38. 1Now, would I be correct, Colonel, in my

    2 impression that the war went through different phases?

    3 During one phase, one side might have the upper hand;

    4 during another phase, the advantage may shift?

    5 A. That's correct, Your Honour.

    6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, on the 14th of

    7 June, what was the relative positions of the two

    8 opposing forces?

    9 A. I can only tell by hearsay, Your Honour,

    10 because I was on leave during that period of 14th of

    11 June, and this document is referring to the Kakanj

    12 area, and that was not my area of operations.

    13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you look at a

    14 document dated the 8th of June, 1993? And I'm trying

    15 to get the exhibit number in a while -- 414, I think,

    16 Mr. Dubuisson.

    17 A. I have it here, Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You have it? And it is

    19 dated the 8th of June, 1993.

    20 A. That's correct.

    21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Where were you at that

    22 time?

    23 A. At that time, I was in the area of Travnik

    24 and Guca Gora, Your Honour.

    25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, would you look at

  39. 1the last paragraph at the bottom of page 3 -- shall I

    2 read it to you? It says: "The position of the Armija

    3 appears strong and morale in the operational group

    4 headquarters is high. This contrasts strongly with the

    5 HVO operational zone headquarters --" I think that

    6 should be "where" "-- where previous arrogance had

    7 been replaced by trepidation. The Armija OG commander

    8 appeared confident of further gains in the Bila Valley

    9 stating he would join UNPROFOR in their HQ for a drink

    10 tomorrow and would not require an escort. The ultimate

    11 objective of the 3rd Corps is not known but continued

    12 advance on the southern access will provide a

    13 controlled Travnik-Zenica route."

    14 Do you see that paragraph?

    15 A. I see that paragraph, Your Honour.

    16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: So at that stage, the

    17 advantage lay with whom?

    18 A. That's clear, that the Armija forces were

    19 winning at that time, and they almost reached their

    20 objective for that attack they launched.

    21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: That is 8th of June. Do

    22 you see any connection between the situation on the 8th

    23 of June and the fact that, on the 14th of June, one

    24 week later, General Blaskic is putting out a document

    25 in the form of 417C in which he's saying that the

  40. 1forces on the other side were, in effect, destroying

    2 the Croat people? Do you see any connection?

    3 A. I can see a connection, Your Honour, but this

    4 letter of Mr. Blaskic is based on wrong information.

    5 We told him after the 8th of June that it was

    6 incorrect, that there was no massacre on the Croat

    7 population, that there was no -- or only small damage

    8 to Croat property. If he claims that on the same basis

    9 of information, then it's wrong, and I think he

    10 addressed it on another area, Kakanj and Vares, and

    11 that's some 50 kilometres away from Travnik.

    12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Is it your statement to

    13 the court that he was erring intentionally?

    14 A. If he based his information on the Guca Gora

    15 area, then I think he did it intentionally, because we

    16 informed him before the 14th that all the allegations

    17 concerning the Guca Gora area were untrue. We made

    18 that very clear.

    19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, my question to you

    20 was intended to ascertain whether there was any

    21 connection between his intentionally exaggerating the

    22 position in the fact that at around that time, the

    23 military advantage lay with the Armija.

    24 A. I can understand that they have a bad feeling

    25 when they're at a disadvantage, of course, but that

  41. 1still, according to my education, my military

    2 education, doesn't give you a good reason to mislead

    3 your own people.

    4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. I understand you.

    5 Now, could I ask you to look again at Exhibit 417C?

    6 It's dated 14th of June. The first line says: "Muslim

    7 forces persist in exterminating the Croat people." Was

    8 that correct?

    9 A. That's incorrect, Your Honour.

    10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The fourth line from the

    11 bottom speaks of massacres.

    12 A. That's also incorrect.

    13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The last line says: "On

    14 behalf of all the Croats, we beg you to stop the

    15 jihad," and it is signed Colonel Tihomir Blaskic, who

    16 therefore was speaking on behalf of all the Croats.

    17 A. I think Mr. Blaskic was, Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, what would you say

    19 if you were told that Colonel Blaskic was, at around

    20 the same time, telling Muslims, some Muslims, a group

    21 of Muslims, that all people should live peacefully

    22 together? Do you think so? Do you think he would have

    23 been sincere?

    24 A. No, I don't think so.

    25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, let us look at

  42. 1Exhibit 422, dated 18th June. It is from Colonel

    2 Blaskic; it's a command order. Am I right?

    3 A. That's correct, Your Honour.

    4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Look at paragraph 8. It

    5 refers to POWs, Prisoners of War, does it?

    6 A. That's correct, Prisoners of War, yes.

    7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: And paragraph 9, as

    8 you've noticed before, refers to the Geneva Convention

    9 and the laws of war.

    10 A. That's correct.

    11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: As a military man

    12 reading this, you would say that he was telling his

    13 soldiers that there could be liability under the laws

    14 of war for any transgressions of those laws?

    15 A. That's what he's telling them, yes.

    16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: So you would say that he

    17 was telling his soldiers the laws of war applied?

    18 A. That's correct.

    19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Look, finally, at

    20 Exhibit D148. This is a command order issued by

    21 Colonel Blaskic. It's dated 22 April, 1993. Now, look

    22 at paragraph 1: "On the territory of the area of

    23 responsibility of the Central Bosnia operative zone

    24 command controlled by the HVO, I most strictly forbid

    25 the torching of houses," et cetera.

  43. 1As a military man reading that, you would say

    2 that the writer of this document was asserting military

    3 control over the area of Central Bosnia?

    4 A. That's correct, Your Honour.

    5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you also say -- or

    6 let me direct you to the part on the top right hand

    7 which cites the addressees of the document, and in

    8 particular, let me invite your attention to the

    9 penultimate line, "Special Purposes Unit, Vitezovi."

    10 Do you see that?

    11 A. Yes, I do.

    12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then let me direct you

    13 to paragraph 2, "The commanders of brigades and

    14 independent units must issue this order."

    15 Do you see that also?

    16 A. I see that also, yes.

    17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let me invite you to

    18 look at paragraph 5: "This order shall take effect

    19 immediately, and the commanders of brigades and

    20 independent units in the Central Bosnia operative zone

    21 are responsible to me for its execution."

    22 Would you say that the writer of this

    23 document was saying that these independent units,

    24 including the Vitezovi unit, were answerable to him?

    25 A. That's correct, Your Honour.

  44. 1JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: What would you

    2 understand to be the meaning of the word "independent"

    3 then? Independent of other HVO units but not

    4 independent of the commander at the top?

    5 A. I think in our structure, independent units

    6 are units directly under the control of the top level;

    7 like, for instance, a communications company, these

    8 lines on the bottom of this address list, so not under

    9 control of a brigade, as a level in between, but

    10 directly under the operational zone command.

    11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let me ask you one last

    12 question. Let me try to relocate you in time and

    13 space. You remember your testimony that a military

    14 commander of the HVO gave you permission to visit some

    15 place, but that on your way to the place, you were

    16 stopped, I think, by a single soldier, and he

    17 countermanded the order; is that it?

    18 A. That's correct. That was in Gomionica, I

    19 think.

    20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The question that was

    21 then put to you was whether this suggested that there

    22 were two independent lines of authority within the

    23 HVO. Do you remember that line of examination?

    24 A. I do, Your Honour, yes.

    25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I think you said that

  45. 1that was what you were usually told whenever you got

    2 permission and wanted to travel somewhere and you were

    3 stopped and you complained to the authorities, they

    4 would say something to the same effect, "Well, people

    5 down there would do their own thing." Was that --

    6 A. That was not always the case, but sometimes

    7 that was the answer they gave us.

    8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, sometimes. Now,

    9 what was your understanding of the system then? Were

    10 there two independent lines of authority, or was it the

    11 case that the authority which gave you the licence knew

    12 that, in all likelihood, you would be stopped on the

    13 way?

    14 A. That last thing is correct, Your Honour. I

    15 think they were just looking for an excuse. They

    16 didn't want to debate any longer in the headquarters,

    17 so they gave us permission, and on the ground we would

    18 be stopped anyway.

    19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Do I understand you to

    20 mean then that all things considered, you are of the

    21 view that there was one single line of authority?

    22 A. That's correct, Your Honour.

    23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: You have answered many

    25 questions, Lieutenant-Colonel. I have only one concern

  46. 1which is still in my mind after what my colleagues have

    2 said, and this has to do with the orders. I'm kind of

    3 following up on the question that Judge Shahabuddeen,

    4 my colleague, asked.

    5 I would like to go back to three documents,

    6 D147, 148, and 149, all "D." There is actually a

    7 fourth one as well. I have put these three together.

    8 These are orders in which General Blaskic, who was the

    9 commander of the Central Bosnian operative zone, was

    10 giving instructions so that the rights of international

    11 humanitarian assistance be respected. You haven't been

    12 shown these yet, but we're going to show them to you

    13 now.

    14 The documents, as the registrar has pointed

    15 out, have not been admitted as evidence, but we're

    16 going to ask you rather general questions anyway. They

    17 were not admitted because we did not know about them.

    18 Do you agree with that?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: You didn't know about them

    21 because they are strictly confidential.

    22 One of the questions which the Prosecution

    23 asked -- one of the themes, rather, not questions, was

    24 to say that the documents demonstrate that Colonel

    25 Blaskic admittedly had concerns in respect of the

  47. 1rights of international humanitarian law but that his

    2 concerns were not followed up by any execution of

    3 things. Nothing was carried out. Do you follow what

    4 I'm saying so far?

    5 A. Yes, I do.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: The question that I would like

    7 to ask you is that, in an army such as the Dutch army,

    8 when this type of order is given, if we were in a war,

    9 the sanctions which are taken, should these orders not

    10 be carried out, are they published? Are they public?

    11 Are they known? Do you understand what I'm asking?

    12 A. Yes, I understand what you're asking, Your

    13 Honour. I think, because these orders all matter about

    14 international law, about violations of humanitarian

    15 laws, the Geneva Convention, and all the additional

    16 laws, I think that's such an important matter that it's

    17 no longer a matter of confidential orders or not.

    18 These orders should be discussed openly. It should be

    19 clear to everybody, all representatives of the

    20 International Community in the area, that the commander

    21 in place is doing anything he can to live up to these

    22 humanitarian laws, and he didn't -- or they didn't show

    23 us anything about that, nothing at all. So there was

    24 no sign at all that they issued these orders or that

    25 they tried, even tried to live up to the humanitarian

  48. 1laws.

    2 So according to the Dutch military system, I

    3 think, yes, we should spread out the news that the

    4 commander has ordered everybody to live up to the

    5 humanitarian laws.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. At the time of the

    7 joint commissions, did General Blaskic or his

    8 representatives say to you orally, since the written

    9 orders were confidential, that all the measures have

    10 been taken in order to have the serious violations of

    11 international law stopped?

    12 A. Sometimes when an allegation was made, but

    13 only sometimes, the answer would be, "Yes, we are

    14 taking care of that." But in most cases, the

    15 allegation was followed by another contra-allegation,

    16 and that went on for hours, so there was no clear

    17 reaction on most of the occasions.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: I'd like you to call upon your

    19 memory, and perhaps even your notes, these three

    20 documents, D147, 148, and 149, which I said were not

    21 admitted as evidence, nonetheless are all part of a

    22 very limited time period, the 22nd and 24th of April.

    23 The 24th of April -- actually, one says it was at 10.20

    24 in the morning and then at 11.00.

    25 Do you remember, short of showing them to you

  49. 1since they're confidential, do you remember having

    2 heard this question discussed at all? If you need to,

    3 please look at your notes.

    4 A. On the 23rd, we have the first meeting of the

    5 joint operational command after this order of the 22nd,

    6 and this meeting starts again with all kinds of

    7 allegations; for instance, stop civilians digging

    8 trenches, et cetera, et cetera, release all prisoners.

    9 Allegations from both sides; no clear answers to those

    10 allegations.

    11 On the 24th, we have another meeting, and

    12 then I go to Grahovcici for three days, so I was not in

    13 the area of Vitez in those three days.

    14 Then on the 27th, I go to Kiseljak, and there

    15 is then this problem of no entrance into Gomionica and

    16 the same allegations again.

    17 On the 28th, there is another meeting in

    18 Vitez, and it's the same problem. That's a field

    19 officer of the UNHCR claiming that people are still

    20 being expelled.

    21 So I didn't take any notes on positive

    22 reactions that HVO would take care of these

    23 allegations.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Since these documents have not

    25 been admitted as evidence, how do you interpret the

  50. 1fact that in the joint commissions, that the

    2 representatives of Colonel Blaskic did not say at any

    3 point, "But we're making all the arrangements we can.

    4 We're making all the steps necessary. Myself or the

    5 Colonel has taken all the measures necessary. We can't

    6 speak about them to you in any detail, but we did, and

    7 we will tell you"? Can you explain why that was not

    8 spoken about with the commission?

    9 A. That's hard to tell, Your Honour. That's

    10 what struck me, when Mr. Hayman showed me these orders,

    11 I had never seen them before, and that is the strange

    12 thing. We used to discuss all these matters during the

    13 joint commission meetings. That's what these

    14 commissions were for, to bring trust amongst each

    15 other, to bring trust for the International Community,

    16 to explain what they did on all these allegations, and

    17 there was no positive answer at all. I mean, we were

    18 the ones who report to Zagreb and they were the ones

    19 who report to Brussels, so what could our politicians

    20 do if there was no positive reaction at all? And they

    21 didn't give us any positive reaction.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Thank you very

    23 much, Colonel Morsink. You agreed to come back; you

    24 have been asked many questions. The Tribunal is very

    25 grateful to you and now is sending you back to your

  51. 1military activities. We will have you accompanied out

    2 of the courtroom and then we will take a break.

    3 Have the witness accompanied out of the

    4 courtroom, please. Thank you.

    5 (The witness withdrew)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We will resume in

    7 about 20 minutes.

    8 --- Recess taken at 4.01 p.m.

    9 --- On resuming at 4.31 p.m.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume.

    11 (The accused entered court)

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, you have the

    13 floor in respect of this afternoon's work, or perhaps

    14 tomorrow's as well.

    15 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we don't have any

    16 additional witnesses this afternoon. We would request,

    17 however, that we be permitted to go into closed session

    18 to raise an issue with the court.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We will have a

    20 closed session now.

    21 (Closed session)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  52. 1












    13 Pages 10100 to 10112 redacted - in closed session




    17 Whereupon the court stands adjourned at

    18 4.50 p.m., to be reconvened on

    19 Tuesday, the 7th day of July, 1998,

    20 at 9.45 a.m