1 Tuesday, 7th July 1998
2 (Open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.59 a.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume our work.
5 Good morning. Do the interpreters hear me? Good
6 morning to them. That's fine. Does the Prosecution
7 hear? Does the Defence hear?
8 Very well. We're going to resume now for a
9 day which may not be too long, but I would like things
10 to be clear to everybody. Since the time which is not
11 used today by the Prosecution will be counted as part
12 of its time, whereas tomorrow, if not used, will not be
13 counted because there have been changes at various
14 levels which are regrettable but, in fact, it's the
15 Tribunal that is responsible for that, and therefore it
16 will not be counted against the Prosecution.
17 Mr. Cayley I believe is going to conduct the
18 examination. The floor is yours.
19 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President,
20 Your Honours, Counsel. The Prosecutor would now like
21 to call a Major Oscar Meijboom, another Dutch army
22 officer, an ECMM monitor from July of 1993 until
23 January of 1994. He served predominantly in the
24 municipalities of Kiseljak, Fojnica, Kresevo, and
1He will speak in his testimony of a front-line
2 visit that he made to the 3rd battalion of the Ban
3 Jelacic brigade of the HVO. This took place in an area
4 known as Otigosce in the municipality of Kiseljak. He
5 will state that at this front-line position, he
6 witnessed Bosnian Muslim men digging military
7 fortifications for the HVO, and he will speak of the
8 conversations that he had with the battalion commander
9 at that location, a Mr. Branko Stanic, and he will tell
10 the court about that man's views on Muslims in Kiseljak
11 and of atrocities committed against the Muslim people
12 in Kiseljak.
13 Based on what he was told by the HVO in
14 Kiseljak, he will explain to you the HVO command
15 structure in that area as he saw it throughout his
16 tour. He will speak briefly of his visits to the
17 Rotilj village, which over seven months he visited 15
18 to 20 times. He will speak of conditions there, of the
19 evidence that he saw of looting of this village and of
20 the physical abuse of Muslim detainees.
21 He will speak of Serb involvement in the
22 municipality of Kiseljak to the HVO, of the military
23 assistance provided to the HVO in the form of T-55 main
24 battle tanks which he himself witnessed in the
25 municipality of Kiseljak. He will tell the Court of
1his conversations with the HVO authorities on the
2 assistance that the Serbs were providing in moving
3 supplies into Kiseljak municipality.
4 He will tell the Court how, in October of
5 1993, he sought population statistics from the HVO
6 authorities in Kiseljak and Kresevo indicating the
7 ethnic composition of those municipalities prior to the
8 war. He will then give the figures as he knew them of
9 the number of Muslims living in Kiseljak and Kresevo by
10 October of 1993.
11 Next he will speak of his attempts in October
12 of 1993 to enter the village of Stupni Do in the
13 municipality of Vares, and how the HVO refused to allow
14 entry into that village because of supposed combat
15 operations, how he saw truckloads of HVO troops leaving
16 that village and how those troops explained that they
17 were involved in work they did not like doing. He will
18 speak of conversations that he had with the brigade
19 commander, the HVO brigade commander, Emil Harah in
20 Vares, and later with a conversation with Ivica Rajic
21 at the HVO headquarters in Vares.
22 Lastly, he will speak of a time in November
23 when the International Community blamed Ivica Rajic for
24 what had occurred in Stupni Do and for a number of
25 other incidents involving NGOs and how he perceived
1that although Ivica Rajic was supposedly removed by the
2 HVO authorities from command in Kiseljak, in reality,
3 the man was not removed at all but remained in a
4 position of command in Kiseljak, and the witness will
5 broadly speak of what he perceived happening in
6 Kiseljak at the time.
7 His testimony is relevant to paragraphs 4,
8 5.2, Count 1; persecution, Counts 5 to 10; wilful
9 killing and causing serious injury, Counts 11 to 13;
10 destruction and plunder of property, Counts 15, 16, 17,
11 and 18; inhumane treatment and taking of hostages.
12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you for the summary.
13 Mr. Dubuisson, would you have the witness brought in,
15 There is no Dutch interpreter today?
16 MR. CAYLEY: The witness is testifying in
17 English, Mr. President. I spoke to the Dutch Ministry
18 of Defence last night. They were reluctant, but
19 they've agreed, and the witness has also agreed to
20 testify in English.
21 (The witness entered)
22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. That will
23 speed things up. Do you hear me, Major. Presiding
24 Judge speaking to you. Do you hear me?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1JUDGE JORDA: First of all, good morning.
2 Tell us your family name, your given names, and your
3 rank. Remain standing, please, until you have read
4 your oath.
5 THE WITNESS: My name is Meijboom, first name
6 Oscar, I'm a Major in the Dutch army.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Would you spell your name for
8 us, please? Please spell your name. Before you read
9 the oath, would you please spell your name?
10 THE WITNESS: M-E-I-J-B-O-O-M.
11 JUDGE RIAD: How do you pronounce it?
12 THE WITNESS: Meijboom.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Well, Major Meijboom, would you
14 please read the statement?
15 THE WITNESS: I promise to tell the truth,
16 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. You have
18 come at the request of the Prosecution as part of the
19 trial of General Blaskic, the accused in this
20 courtroom. You are going to answer the questions asked
21 by the Prosecutor, you will speak freely. According to
22 a procedure, which I'm sure Mr. Cayley has explained to
23 you. When the Prosecution asks you a question, you can
24 look at the person asking the question, but when you
25 answer, please answer directly facing the Judges.
2 Mr. Cayley, you may proceed.
3 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 WITNESS: OSCAR MEIJBOOM
5 Examined by Mr. Cayley
6 Q. Major Meijboom, when I ask you a question, if
7 you could pause slightly before you answer my question
8 because I am being interpreted as you are,
9 simultaneously, so it assists the interpreters.
10 You joined the Dutch army in 1980?
11 A. That's true.
12 Q. You attended the officer training school in
13 Breda in the Netherlands which was two years; is that
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. I think you then went into the medical branch
17 of the Dutch army; is that correct?
18 A. That's also correct.
19 Q. I think you've held a number of platoon and
20 company commands over both medical and administrative
21 personnel in the Dutch army?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I think you've also held a number of staff
24 positions in the Dutch army?
25 A. That's correct.
1Q. I think you're presently the second in
2 command of the Dutch army garrison at Zoutkamp in
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. You're a Major now?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I think you've done two tours of duty with
8 the European Community Monitoring Mission?
9 A. Yes, that's true.
10 Q. One from July of 1993 to January 1994 in
11 Central Bosnia, and one from January 1995 to August
12 1995 in Bihac?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Now, while you were in Central Bosnia, you
15 were in a team that was mainly responsible for the
16 municipalities of Kiseljak, Fojnica, Kresevo, and
17 Visoko; is that correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Now, concentrating on that period of time,
20 from July of 1993 to January of 1994, I want you to
21 recall some visits that you made to front-line positions
22 in Kresevo and Tarcin, and Otigosce and Fojnica, and
23 specifically a visit that you made in September of 1993
24 to the Otigosce/Fojnica front-line. Could you explain
25 what occurred on that visit to the Judges?
1A. Yes, I can. I visited the frontlines several
2 times. I passed them two or three times a week. When
3 I visited the front-line, I visited together with the
4 battalion commander in the area, it was Mr. Branko
5 Stanic. He wanted to show us the frontlines, and we
6 came at the front-line and we saw his soldiers guarding
7 some people working at the trenches. We asked
8 Mr. Stanic about these people because they were
9 unprotected, they didn't wear arms, as the other
10 soldiers, so we asked him about these guys, and he just
11 laughed and said these were some of his men.
12 Q. Was this an HVO position?
13 A. Yes, it was. It was on the front-line from
14 the battalion facing the other troops in Fojnica area.
15 Q. And Branko Stanic, who was he?
16 A. He was the battalion commander.
17 Q. Of this HO battalion?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How many of these men were there digging
20 military fortifications?
21 A. Five or six.
22 Q. Had you seen any of them before?
23 A. I had seen two of these men before in a
24 village named Rotilj near Kiseljak.
25 Q. Did you and the other monitors come to a
1conclusion about who these people were digging these
3 A. Yes, we did. These people were Muslim people
4 from the village of Rotilj, they were men in the age of
5 40 to 60, and they were kept in Rotilj and they were
6 used to work on the trenches in Otigosce.
7 Q. What sort of physical condition were these
8 people in?
9 A. Not really bad but not good as well. They
10 were poorly dressed and they were a bit skinny.
11 Q. Did you speak to Mr. Stanic about his views
12 on the Muslim population in Kiseljak?
13 A. Yes, we did. In fact, Mr. Stanic always gave
14 his view on the Muslim population always when we met
15 him. He had a very extreme view. He stated that he
16 would like to kill them all if they would take some
17 tearing (unclear), he wouldn't make prisoners, he would
18 kill them or nail them on a cross.
19 Q. Did he speak about these matters in front of
20 his men?
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. Now, did you ever see the men of this HVO
23 battalion based at Otigosce actually committing any war
25 A. We saw them once, it was near Fojnica, they
1were burning houses and looting houses.
2 Q. How far away from them were you when you saw
3 this taking place?
4 A. How far away from ...
5 Q. How far away from these soldiers that you
6 observed looting, what was the distance?
7 A. We were close to them and we even spoke to
9 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
10 the first exhibit, which is a map? What exhibit number
11 is this, Mr. Registrar?
12 THE REGISTRAR: This is 430.
13 MR. CAYLEY:
14 Q. Now, before coming into the courtroom today,
15 I asked you to mark on a map the position, as best as
16 you could recall it, of the HVO front-line at Otigosce.
17 Is that the line that you marked on the map?
18 A. Yes, it is. It is part -- this one
19 (indicated). It's part of the front-line of the HVO
21 Q. And you're pointing at the orange sort
22 of squiggle within the blue square?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. How many times did you visit that front-line;
25 do you recall?
1A. Well, we visited twice but we passed it
2 several times.
3 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Now if the witness
4 could be shown the next exhibit, which is 431?
5 Q. Now, Major Meijboom, prior to you testifying
6 here today, I asked you to draw out for me the command
7 structure as you understood it in Kiseljak. Is this
8 the diagram that you drew for me?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. Now, tell me, you have at the bottom
11 left-hand corner the Otigosce battalion, the 3rd
12 battalion. How do you know that Branko Stanic was the
13 commanding officer of that battalion?
14 A. First of all, because he introduced himself
15 like that, he was addressed as a commander by his men,
16 and also from HVO barracks in Kiseljak, we were told
17 that this battalion was stationed out in Otigosce and
18 that we could meet the battalion commander, Mr. Stanic,
19 over there.
20 Q. Now, tell me, how do you know that Mr. Iv
21 Kluges was the battalion commander in Cresol, the 2nd
23 A. It's the same story. We met Mr. Kulis, he
24 introduced him like that, he was addressed like a
25 commander, also by HVO barracks.
1Q. If you could explain how you knew that
2 Mr. Ivica Rajic occupied the three positions that
3 you've indicated on that diagram, certainly during your
4 period of service in Bosnia?
5 A. We had the first meeting with Mr. Rajic and
6 then he introduced himself as the commander of
7 operational group, the brigade in Kiseljak, and the 1st
8 battalion in Kiseljak, and he was also addressed by all
9 international organisations, including UNPROFOR, as the
11 Q. And how do you know that Mr. Blaskic was the
12 operational zone commander over arching all of these
13 other units?
14 A. We know because Mr. Rajic said so. We heard
15 several times from liaison officer Vinko Lucic, he
16 spoke about Mr. Blaskic as the commander.
17 Q. Now, tell me a little bit more about
18 Mr. Vinko Lucic. Who was he?
19 A. Vinko Lucic was the liaison officer from HVO
20 barracks in Kiseljak to all international
22 Q. How regularly did you deal with him?
23 A. Three to four times a week.
24 Q. And to whom did he report?
25 A. To Mr. Rajic, his commander.
1Q. Now, finally on that diagram you have the
2 Bobovac brigade under the command of Emil Harah. How
3 do you know that that unit fell under the command of
4 Ivica Rajic?
5 A. Because he told this to us and we met -- in
6 fact, Vares was not my area, but we met Mr. Harah a
7 couple of times and he also addressed Mr. Rajic as
8 being his commander.
9 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
10 Exhibit 85, please?
11 Q. Do you recognise anybody on that photograph?
12 A. This is Mr. Lucic, Vinko Lucic, the liaison
14 Q. In Kiseljak?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be
17 shown Exhibit 339?
18 Q. Do you recognise anybody on that photograph?
19 A. Mr. Rajic (indicated).
20 Q. Was there ever an occasion when you were with
21 Vinko Lucic and you wished to see Mr. Rajic and it
22 wasn't possible to see him?
23 A. Yes, there were several occasions that we
24 couldn't talk to him. One of the occasions, he said
25 Mr. Rajic is not available because he is on the radio
1with his commander.
2 Q. Now, if we can move on to Rotilj, and I know
3 you visited on a large number of occasions, and I don't
4 wish you to speak about every visit, but if you could
5 summarise to the court your visits over a seven-month
6 period and end, I think, with one of the visits which
7 was most memorable towards the end of November of 1993?
8 A. Well, as you said, we visited the village
9 several times, and during these visits, starting in
10 July, we saw that the population -- or the village got
11 overcrowded. Originally there were 200 and in the end
12 there were about 800 inhabitants. When we were there,
13 this particular situation, some women came to us and
14 they claimed to be raped. They showed us bruises on
15 their body to prove this.
16 Q. What was the condition of the people in
17 Rotilj by November of 1993?
18 A. They were in need of all kinds of things. In
19 fact, there was no organisation that could take --
20 could care for them, they needed food, medicines,
21 medical treatment, stoves, blankets. In fact,
23 Q. Were these people free to leave the village
24 of Rotilj?
25 A. No, they were not. They were kept there.
1The area was sealed by HVO and civil police.
2 Q. Did the HVO ever tell you why these people
3 were kept in the village of Rotilj?
4 A. The liaison officer of HVO, Mr. Lucic, and
5 the mayor of Kiseljak, Mr. Boro, Josip Boro, told us
6 that these people were kept there, in fact, for two
7 reasons. First reason, for their own safety, and
8 second reason, to keep there as some kind of a stock
9 for future exchanges.
10 Q. Were all of the people in this village of
11 Rotilj Bosnian Muslims, these 800 people?
12 A. Yes, they were.
13 Q. Did you ever see any evidence of looting of
14 houses and beating of the detainees in Rotilj village?
15 A. We didn't see it happen, but we saw the
16 results. We saw houses burned and furniture thrown out
17 and taken away.
18 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Vinko
19 Lucic about a particular incident of looting and raping
20 that happened towards the end of November of 1993?
21 A. Yes, we had. We heard -- I don't recall from
22 whom -- that something happened in Rotilj, and when we
23 asked Lucic about it, he said that the matter was under
24 investigation. It was about one man being killed, one
25 man wounded, and probably women raped, and it was done
1by three or four uniformed men.
2 Q. Did you ever see the results of any
3 investigation into this matter?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5 Q. Would you describe the people in Rotilj as
6 very frightened when you visited them?
7 A. Yes, they were. Mostly because they weren't
8 sure of their lives, they felt like they were being
9 held in prison and they weren't sure what the future
10 would bring.
11 Q. Did you see able-bodied men being taken from
12 Rotilj village while you were there by the HVO?
13 A. Yes, we saw that.
14 Q. If we could now move on to the next part of
15 your testimony which concerns the involvement of the
16 Bosnian Serb army in Kiseljak, and if you can summarise
17 to the Judges your observations in that respect?
18 A. We heard from people in Canadian battalion
19 that they saw some tanks T-55s, 15 to 25 of these
20 things in the area of Gromiljak, it's close to
21 Kiseljak, and when we went to see ourselves, we saw
22 five or six of these tanks, T-55.
23 Q. Were these HVO tanks?
24 A. No, they were not HVO tanks because HVO
25 didn't have tanks at that moment in the area.
1Q. So to whom did these tanks belong?
2 A. I don't know to whom they belonged at that
3 moment, but they came from Serb territory.
4 Q. And what were these tanks actually doing in
5 the area?
6 A. They were there to support an offensive in
7 the direction of Fojnica.
8 Q. And who was running the offensive in the
9 direction of Fojnica?
10 A. A brigade in Kiseljak.
11 Q. An HVO brigade?
12 A. HVO brigade, yes.
13 Q. What did the mayor of Kiseljak tell you about
14 supplies coming into the municipality of Kiseljak?
15 A. We asked him about the supplies because
16 Kiseljak was said to be a pocket and we always saw the
17 shops full of all kinds of fresh things, so we asked
18 them how they get the goods in, and he explained that
19 it came in with convoys coming from Croatia where the
20 goods were bought with money from a bank account which
21 was sponsored by foreign Croats, so they could bring in
22 a convoy if they paid the Serbs enough money to let
23 them through.
24 Q. Now, I think in October of 1993, you sought
25 certain details of the ethnic composition of Kiseljak
1and Kresevo before the war, and I'd be grateful if you
2 could tell the Court about that investigation in which
3 you were involved?
4 A. We were interested in ethnic population
5 before war, and so we went to the town halls in
6 Kiseljak and in Kresevo, and there we got the figures,
7 and we were mainly interested in the Croat and the
8 Muslim population. In Kiseljak, they told us in the
9 town hall that before war the total number of
10 inhabitants was around 24.000 of which almost 10.000
11 Muslim. In Kresevo, we did the same, we went to the
12 town hall and there they told us that before war, there
13 were around 7.000 inhabitants of which 1500 were Muslim
15 Q. In October of 1993, did you investigate how
16 many Muslims were left in Kiseljak and Kresevo?
17 A. Yes, I did. In Kresevo, there were
18 approximately 150 kept in a school building, and in
19 Kiseljak area, there were around 800 kept in Rotilj.
20 Q. So a large number of Muslims were no longer
21 living in Kiseljak and Kresevo?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that there were
24 800 Muslim people kept in the village in Rotilj. Did
25 you visit other villages in the Kiseljak area to find
1the possible presence of Muslim people?
2 A. Yes, I did. I visited I think almost all the
3 villages in the area. During my visits, all the
4 villages, except for Palez, were free of Muslim
5 population. In Palez there was some left maybe 20, but
6 during my period, they also moved, whether to Rotilj or
7 somewhere else, I don't know.
8 Q. Now if we can move to the attack on the
9 village of Stupni Do, and I know that you were involved
10 from an early stage and then you went on leave back to
11 the Netherlands, but if you could explain to the Judges
12 the events of the 23rd, 24th, and 25th of October of
14 A. Yes. Early in the morning of 23rd, we were
15 sent to Vares area to investigate on the matter that
16 should have happened in Stupni Do. We didn't know at
17 that moment what happened, but we heard rumours that
18 something happened in Stupni Do, and the head of the
19 coordination centre didn't think it was safe enough for
20 one team to go in, so he sent us with V-4 team. We
21 went there, and we were first stopped by an Armija
22 checkpoint and they told us it wasn't safe to go in the
23 area because of fighting that were going on. At this
24 checkpoint, we heard that there was fighting going on
25 because of small arms fire and heavy machine-gun fire.
1The other team leader, Mr. Rolf Weckesser, an officer
2 in German army, didn't want to go in because he felt it
3 wasn't safe enough so we went back.
4 Q. I think on the 24th of October, you actually
5 decided to return to Vares. Can you tell the Judges
6 about that?
7 A. Yes. The next day we tried again. That's
8 the day we passed the checkpoint of the Armija, then we
9 entered the HVO checkpoint near the road to Stupni Do.
10 There we were stopped again and we were not allowed to
11 go in the direction of Stupni Do because we needed the
12 permission of the brigade commander. While we were
13 there, we saw three trucks with soldiers coming back
14 from the direction of Stupni Do, and Mr. Weckesser, the
15 other team leader, spoke with the help of his
16 interpreter with the soldiers, and these soldiers told
17 him that they had to do a job they didn't like, and
18 that they had nothing to do with what happened to the
19 people in Stupni Do.
20 Q. Now, you say you were stopped on the road to
21 Stupni Do. By whom were you stopped?
22 A. By HVO checkpoint.
23 Q. And which brigade commander were they
24 referring you to?
25 A. The brigade commander from Vares, Emil Harah.
1Q. Now, when Colonel Weckesser had this
2 conversation with these HVO soldiers, the monitors, I
3 assume, discussed this amongst themselves. What did
4 you interpret this to mean, what they had stated to
6 A. Well, because of the fact that the soldiers
7 came back from the direction of Stupni Do and we saw
8 smoke coming from the direction of Stupni Do and the
9 things they said, we assumed that they had to do some
10 kind of a cleaning job, so getting rid of dead bodies
11 and burning things down.
12 Q. Did you go and see Emil Harah?
13 A. Yes, we did. We were told by him that we
14 couldn't enter because of the fact that there was still
15 fighting going on in the area, so we went back again.
16 Q. So you returned to Zenica on that day?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. On the 25th of October, you came back again
19 to Vares; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct. That day we were together
21 with Mr. William Stutt, a Canadian officer, he was the
22 head of the coordination centre, and we went to Vares
23 to the sport hotel where the headquarters of the
24 brigade was to meet Mr. Harah to get permission to go
25 to Stupni Do, but when we came there it wasn't
1Mr. Harah who was in command, it was Mr. Rajic who
2 welcomed us and introduced a new man which we didn't
3 know before, it was Mr. Bozic, Kresimir Bozic, and he
4 told us that was the new commander, but this new
5 commander didn't do any talking. Mr. Rajic told us
6 that we couldn't go to Stupni Do.
7 Q. Did you ever get into Stupni Do yourself?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. I think you then went on leave, did you not,
10 back to the Netherlands?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And am I right in saying that you returned to
13 Kiseljak in the middle of November?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Now, when you came back from leave, did you
16 discover that the command of the HVO in Kiseljak had
17 apparently changed?
18 A. Yes. We were told by Mr. Lucic that Ivica
19 Rajic was no longer in command and that the commander
20 was now Mario Bradara, it was his former second in
21 command, and Mr. Rajic would act as an advisor for the
23 Q. Why had Mr. Rajic apparently been removed
24 from command of the HVO in Kiseljak?
25 A. Well, there were two reasons. One reason was
1the affair in Stupni Do, what happened there, because
2 Rajic was blamed by International Organisations and, in
3 fact, by everybody about what happened to Stupni Do,
4 and the other reason was Mr. Rajic's attitude toward
5 the International Organisations and the fact that he
6 threatened a UNHCR field officer in Kiseljak.
7 Q. Stupni Do was a Muslim village, was it not?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. Now, had Mr. Rajic, in fact, been removed
10 from his command position in Kiseljak?
11 A. Well, not effectively because he was still
12 there and he acted as an advisor to his former second
13 in command, so you could say he was still in command.
14 Q. Did anybody in ECMM take this removal
15 seriously of Mr. Rajic?
16 A. No, nobody did.
17 MR. CAYLEY: If I could apply for admission
18 into evidence, Mr. President, of Exhibits 430, 431? I
19 have no further questions of the witness.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. It's 10.45. We can
21 begin with the cross-examination. Mr. Hayman?
22 You are now going to be asked some questions
23 by Defence counsel.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Hayman
25 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President. Good
1morning, Your Honours, good morning, Major.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. First with respect to your observations at
4 Otigosce beginning in or about September of 1993. You
5 said that Branko Stanic was the HVO commander there?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. What unit or brigade was this? Was this
8 the -- it's labelled on Exhibit 431 as the Otigosce
9 battalion. Had it always been based in Otigosce?
10 A. I don't know where it had been based, but in
11 my period, it was based in Otigosce.
12 Q. Well, hadn't it been the HVO unit in Fojnica
13 prior to establishing a command in Otigosce?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Did you author a background report prepared
16 within the ECMM organisation on or about the 6th of
17 October, 1993, dealing with the subject of Fojnica?
18 A. We did prepare a background report, yes,
19 together with the other team members.
20 Q. And does that report reflect and is it true
21 that in Fojnica, the fighting began on the 3rd of July,
22 1993, by a Muslim first action?
23 A. I don't know whether that is true because
24 that's information I didn't confirm myself because I
25 wasn't there at that moment.
1MR. HAYMAN: If the usher could assist, we'll
2 show the witness a copy of his report, and perhaps it
3 will refresh his recollection.
4 This report, Mr. President, exists only in
5 English at this time. Our apologies. It is four pages
6 in length.
7 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if I can make an
8 observation? This is a witness that was in Bosnia for
9 nearly seven months, and I have attempted to complete
10 an examination-in-chief in 30 minutes. Mr. Hayman is
11 now moving almost immediately into areas that were
12 simply not covered in my examination-in-chief.
13 Moreover, he's showing the witness a report to refresh
14 his memory when the witness has already stated that he
15 cannot confirm this information because he wasn't there
16 at this time. It's a pointless exercise that we're
17 going through and it's outside the scope of the
19 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, when a witness
20 tenders an exhibit identifying a unit in a particular
21 place and he wrote a report concerning where that unit
22 actually came from, that unit was attacked by the BH
23 army, driven out of Fojnica, together with some five to
24 ten or more thousand Croat refugees. He doesn't
25 remember; that's fine. I accept that. But he should
1be able -- he should be allowed, I should be permitted,
2 to show him his prior report so that the Court can have
3 accurate information with respect to this unit and this
4 man, Branko Stanic.
5 MR. CAYLEY: Now Mr. Hayman is giving
6 evidence before the court, I see, but ...
7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, it seems possible
8 to me that the Defence might want to try to respond
9 within this cross-examination about the command
10 structure, but I would point out to you, don't regret
11 having been able to be -- able to synthesise things so
12 well. You of course have your right in the redirect as
13 well if you consider that it would be better to go back
14 and ask further questions. But for the time being,
15 we're going to ask Mr. Hayman to continue using this
16 document as part of his cross-examination, and I will
17 be very attentive to make sure that we do not go beyond
18 what is permitted within the scope of the
20 THE REGISTRAR: This is D453.
21 MR. HAYMAN: That must be an error,
22 Mr. President. It was translated as D453, but we don't
23 have that many Defence exhibits yet. Perhaps the
24 registrar could restate the exhibit number?
25 THE REGISTRAR: That was a mistake. It's
1153. Excuse me.
2 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dubuisson.
3 JUDGE JORDA: But remain within the scope of
4 the command structure, Mr. Hayman. All right.
5 MR. HAYMAN: I will stay within the scope of
6 the direct examination, with respect to this document,
7 Mr. President.
8 Q. First of all, at the end of the report, do
9 you see your initials?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You certified that this document was accurate
12 and authentic at the time that you first tendered it to
13 the Office of the Prosecutor; correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Now, does this refresh your recollection that
16 the fighting began in Fojnica on the 3rd of July, 1993,
17 by a Muslim first action against the HVO unit that was
18 then resident in Fojnica and was then commanded by
19 Branko Stanic?
20 A. Well, it is, as I told you, I didn't witness
21 it myself. As all the information before my period,
22 this is a background report, it gives some history of
23 the area. Because it's history I didn't see or confirm
24 it myself, this is information, whether from
25 authorities or from former teams. That's all I can say
2 Q. Did your colleagues in the ECMM believe it to
3 be true and that's why they put it in this report?
4 A. I don't know.
5 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the witness has
6 just stated that is all he can say about this report.
7 He's made his answer quite clear, and I would ask that
8 Mr. Hayman move on to another area of questioning.
9 MR. HAYMAN: It's curious, Mr. President.
10 The witness has never disavowed ECMM reports on direct
11 examination by the Prosecutor. I make that
12 observation. I will continue.
13 Q. Were you told where Branko Stanic had come
14 from when he first came to the HVO unit in Fojnica?
15 A. You mean where he came --
16 JUDGE JORDA: Continue, Mr. Hayman, but be
18 A. You mean where he came from originally or ...
19 MR. HAYMAN:
20 Q. Were you told what his prior occupation had
21 been before coming to the HVO unit in Fojnica, I
22 believe in approximately January of 1993, or coming to
23 Fojnica in approximately January of 1993? Were you
24 told that he had been selling insurance in Vienna for
25 the prior seven years, Major? Is that what you had
2 A. I had been told by Branko Stanic himself that
3 he was a sales -- seller in Austria. I don't know how
4 he came to Fojnica or anywhere else, but I know he told
5 me that.
6 Q. He told you that had been his prior
7 occupation; correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 MR. HAYMAN: One moment.
10 Q. So is it fair to say, Major, that your
11 understanding is, again referring to the chart which is
12 Exhibit 431, that this Otigosce battalion of the HVO is
13 a unit that left Fojnica after an attack on it by the
14 BH army and then resettled or relocated in Otigosce; is
15 that your understanding?
16 A. No, it's not my understanding because it
17 happened before I was there and there was constant
18 fighting going on in the area between Otigosce and
19 Fojnica and the troops were moving back and forward, so
20 that's all I know.
21 Q. Was there an HVO unit in Fojnica at the time
22 you arrived in the theatre in the middle of July 1993?
23 A. No, there wasn't.
24 Q. Now, you described some burning or looting of
25 houses near Fojnica on one occasion that you
1witnessed. Do you recall that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. When was that?
4 A. It was -- I think it was around October '93.
5 Q. And when you say outside Fojnica --
6 A. It was in the direction of Bacovici, it was
7 close to Bacovici.
8 Q. Was it near the front-line at the time?
9 A. Yes, there were some fighting, fighting
10 going on, and an HVO battalion took some terrain.
11 Q. Do you know how these houses were ignited?
12 Were they ignited during fighting, during the take-over
13 of the terrain? Were they ignited after the fighting?
14 Do you know?
15 A. It happened while the fighting was still
16 going on, some of the soldiers were fighting and other
17 soldiers were looting and destroying houses.
18 Q. What were they doing? Destroying houses is a
19 conclusion. Can you describe what you saw?
20 A. Yes, I can. They set fire on the houses and
21 they throw out furniture and things.
22 Q. And where was the front-line at the time?
23 A. Maybe -- well, there was no steady front-line
24 at that time because there was fighting going on, so
25 the old front-line from HVO was about one kilometre, one
1and a half kilometre from there.
2 Q. How many houses did you see being destroyed
3 or damaged?
4 A. Four, five, something like that.
5 Q. Did you report that information within the
7 A. I don't remember that. Maybe I did.
8 Q. Are you able to give us a more specific date?
9 A. No, I'm not.
10 Q. Now, returning to Exhibit 431. Is it your
11 testimony that this -- well, strike that.
12 During what period of time is it your
13 testimony that Exhibit 431 depicts the organisational
14 scheme of the relevant portion of the HVO set forth in
15 this exhibit?
16 A. The organisation, during my whole time, only
17 the command structure in the Bobovac brigade changed,
18 as I told you, before. And I told you also about the
19 fact that Rajic was -- moved from his command and being
20 put as an advisor of his former second in command, but
21 the organisation of the battalions and the brigade
22 stayed the same.
23 Q. So the first of those changes occurred on or
24 about October 25th, 1993, is that right, with respect
25 to the removal of Mr. Harah?
1A. That's correct.
2 Q. So after that point in time, we would have to
3 start modifying this chart in order for it to
4 accurately reflect the persons who held the positions
5 reflected in it; correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Do you know whether the Kiseljak pocket or
8 enclave, did they have access to Herzegovina and Mostar
9 through Serb territory? Could that be arranged and was
10 that possible?
11 A. Yes, it was.
12 Q. Do you know whether the Kiseljak enclave or
13 pocket, did they have access to the Vitez pocket?
14 A. Yes, they had.
15 Q. In what way?
16 A. All kinds of ways. You mean physical
18 Q. Yes. How could those in the Kiseljak pocket
19 travel to the Vitez pocket other than under escort by
20 UNPROFOR or ECMM?
21 A. Just by using a mountain road.
22 Q. Tell us about this road.
23 A. As we did.
24 Q. Tell us about this road. Where is this road
1A. It's located in the mountains -- well, there
2 are several of these roads in the mountains between
3 Vitez and Kiseljak.
4 Q. And do they transit BH army territory?
5 A. They do.
6 Q. But it was no problem for you to use them; is
7 that right?
8 JUDGE JORDA: Remain within the scope of the
9 direct examination, please, Mr. Hayman. Complete your
11 MR. HAYMAN:
12 Q. Now, an organisational chart like this, to
13 have meaning, presumes that orders are followed;
15 A. Of course.
16 Q. If orders are not followed, then it's not
17 very meaningful; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Let me ask you. There was an incident
20 involving the destruction or blowing up of the road
21 from Visoko to Kiseljak; do you recall that?
22 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, this is outside
23 the scope of the examination-in-chief, completely
24 outside --
25 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President --
1MR. CAYLEY: We have left the
2 examination-in-chief completely now.
3 MR. HAYMAN: They have given you a chart and
4 this witness will testify that orders from the top box
5 to the second box were not followed. That's directly
6 responsive and relevant to the impression, the
7 testimony, that this witness is trying to give the
8 Court, and we must be allowed to present that testimony
9 to the Court, and I proffer -- he will testify he was
10 told by the HVO in Kiseljak that Ivica Rajic refused to
11 follow and would not follow direct orders from Colonel
12 Blaskic, and I ask to be permitted to present that
14 JUDGE JORDA: After having consulted my
15 colleagues, Mr. Cayley, you decided to have the witness
16 speak about the command structure, and Mr. Hayman is
17 using his arms to continue this discussion.
18 So Mr. Hayman, go ahead, please.
19 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President. I
20 will attempt to be brief on this line of inquiry.
21 Q. Major, on or about the 9th of October, 1993,
22 did you report that the road from Visoko to Kiseljak
23 had been made impassable by a large crater as a result
24 of a detonation, and that Ivica Rajic had stated to the
25 U.N. BH headquarters that he did not want the road
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And were you subsequently told, on the 11th
4 of October, 1993, by Vinko Lucic that Blaskic had given
5 a direct order to Rajic to repair the road but that
6 Rajic had replied that the road would stay closed until
7 the evacuation of wounded from Novi Bila was realised,
8 despite Blaskic's order to repair it and not to link
9 the repair to the evacuation of the wounded? Were you
10 also told that, sir?
11 A. I was told that by Vinko Lucic, but, in fact,
12 the road was repaired, so ...
13 Q. How long later -- how much time later was the
14 road repaired after you were told Blaskic had given a
15 direct order on or about the 11th of October, 1993, to
16 Ivica Rajic to repair the road and Mr. Rajic had
17 responded he would not? How much later was the road
19 A. I don't know exactly how many days later, but
20 I would guess, I would say three or four days later.
21 Q. Perhaps during the break you can review your
22 reports and see if, in fact, you first reported that
23 the road was reopened some ten days after the 11th of
24 October, and I can assist you during the break in
25 reviewing those reports, if you would be so kind.
1You were shown Exhibit 85, a photograph which
2 includes, among others, Vinko Lucic. Perhaps you
3 should be shown the photo so you have it in mind.
4 Do you know when this photograph was taken?
5 A. No, I don't know.
6 Q. You were shown another photograph, Exhibit
7 339, which included a depiction of Ivica Rajic on a
8 podium of some sort. Do you have that photo in mind?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Do you know when it was taken?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know whether Ivica Rajic received
13 orders directly from General Petkovic in Mostar?
14 A. Not as I'm aware of.
15 Q. Do you know whether General Petkovic visited
16 the Kiseljak enclave and met directly with Ivica Rajic
17 during your tour of duty in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 A. I heard so, but I didn't witness it.
19 Q. As a military man, do you think it's more
20 likely if Rajic and Petkovic were in the Kiseljak
21 enclave together and Blaskic was in the Vitez enclave
22 which, according to you, was accessible only by a
23 mountain road which went through BH army territory, is
24 it likely that Petkovic would give orders --
25 MR. CAYLEY: Objection.
1MR. HAYMAN: Can I finish my question,
3 MR. CAYLEY: Objection, Mr. President. This
4 is pure speculation. Mr. Hayman wanders beyond the
5 scope of the examination-in-chief and, two, he's asking
6 the witness to give opinion about facts of which he is
7 not aware. We are now entering the realm of
8 speculation, and the witness should not be required to
9 answer questions such as these.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Don't ask for speculation, so
11 don't speculate, Mr. Hayman. Ask your questions
12 directly, please.
13 MR. HAYMAN: I wasn't able to finish my
15 Q. Can you answer it without speculating?
16 A. No, I cannot.
17 JUDGE JORDA: But it was very long. You're
18 right, Mr. Hayman, ask shorter questions. Go more
19 directly to where you want to go. Otherwise, the
20 Prosecution is going to say that you're speculating
21 when you start with such long introductions. It's
22 difficult to know where you're going. Ask your
23 questions directly, please.
24 MR. HAYMAN:
25 Q. Now let's turn to the subject of Rotilj
2 During your visits to the village of Rotilj,
3 were you told that a medical doctor visited the village
4 on a weekly basis?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Were you told, during your visits to Rotilj
7 village, that foodstuffs and supplies, soap and other
8 similar personal items, were delivered to the village
9 on a regular basis by Caritas in Kiseljak?
10 A. There were some goods delivered in Rotilj,
11 and not by Caritas, it was delivered by a Muslim
12 organisation, and it wasn't sufficient.
13 Q. So your testimony is the only food aid
14 delivered to Rotilj between July 1993 and January 1994
15 was delivered by Merhamet, a Muslim aid organisation;
16 is that your testimony?
17 A. No, I didn't say that was the only aid they
18 got because I didn't know that, I only know what they
19 told me. They told me they had some aid from Merhamet.
20 MR. HAYMAN: One moment, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, do you still have
22 many questions, in order to try to organise our
23 schedule today? Perhaps you would prefer that we would
24 take our break right away? Then there would be the
25 redirect possibility from Mr. Cayley and any questions
1that the Judges might want to ask.
2 MR. HAYMAN: I do have additional questions.
3 It's not lengthy, but perhaps 30 minutes.
4 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We're going to take
5 a break for 20 minutes
6 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
8 JUDGE JORDA: We can now resume the hearing.
9 Have the accused brought in, please.
10 (The accused entered court)
11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman?
12 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Major, during the break, did you have a
14 chance to review your reports and see when you first
15 reported that the Kiseljak-Visoko road was repaired?
16 A. Yes, I saw that.
17 Q. When did you first report that it had been
19 A. I think it's in my report. It was the 12th,
20 11th or 12th.
21 Q. Can you tell us what that report says?
22 A. I don't know this report by heart.
23 Q. But your testimony is, on the 12th of
24 November, you reported that the road was repaired, had
25 been repaired? Is that your testimony?
1A. I can make this testimony if I have my report
2 here so I can read exactly what date because I don't
3 remember the date.
4 Q. Do you have it?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You looked at it during the break. I didn't
7 show you a copy. Could you be shown what you refreshed
8 your memory with during the break, please?
9 MR. CAYLEY: The witness actually looked at
10 his statement because we couldn't locate the report, so
11 if Mr. Hayman uses the statement that he made to the
12 Office of the Prosecutor ...
13 JUDGE JORDA: Are you using the statement or
14 are you using the report, Mr. Hayman? We're not going
15 to spend too much time with the report for the time
16 being. Which document are you using? Which document
17 did the witness take a look at?
18 MR. HAYMAN: He says he looked at his
19 statement. Mr. Cayley has indicated he looked at his
20 statement. The report and the statement say the same
21 thing, Mr. President.
22 Q. Let me read to you a section of your
23 statement, Major, and ask you if this is what you're
24 referring to. Page 4 of your statement to the Office
25 of the Tribunal Prosecutor.
1JUDGE JORDA: Go slowly, Mr. Hayman, please,
2 for the interpreters.
3 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, Mr. President.
4 Q. "On 12 October, 1993, I had another meeting
5 with Vinko Lucic. He told me that Ivica Rajic stated
6 that the Visoko-Kiseljak road would stay closed until
7 the evacuation of the wounded of the Novi Bila hospital
8 was realised, although Colonel Blaskic gave a direct
9 order to Ivica Rajic to repair and open the road
10 immediately and not to connect it with the evacuation
11 of the Novi Bila hospital."
12 Are you referring to that statement?
13 A. I'm not referring to any statement. I'm just
14 listening to you.
15 Q. Yes. You said you referred to your statement
16 and your statement indicated that by the 11th or 12th
17 of October, 1993, the road was open. I'm reading you a
18 portion of your statement which indicates that, on the
19 12th of October, you were told that Ivica Rajic had
20 said, in substance, "The road is not being opened, and
21 I don't care that Colonel Blaskic gave me an order to
22 open it," and not to link it with any other issue.
23 Those two are inconsistent. So I'm asking you, is
24 there some other portion of your testimony upon which
25 you rely with respect to your testimony that the road
1was open by the 11th or 12th of October, 1993?
2 JUDGE JORDA: Let's not make the questions
3 too complicated, Mr. Hayman. Things are becoming very
4 complicated. You read part of the statement to the
5 witness and asked him whether he confirms that. That's
6 a clear question. Your last sentence is really very
7 ambiguous; it's got several connotations.
8 Let me turn to the Major. You have just been
9 quoted a passage from your statement. Do you confirm
10 it, "Yes" or "No"? That's all.
11 A. Sorry, but I got your -- I didn't get your
12 translation, but I understood what you were asking me
13 in French.
14 Part of the declaration that he read, about
15 what Mr. Vinko Lucic told me, is true.
16 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, I found the next
17 relevant --
18 JUDGE JORDA: Continue, please.
19 MR. HAYMAN:
20 Q. And on the next page, page 5, you state in
21 your statement that on the 20th of October, which is
22 eight days after the 12th and nine days after the 11th,
23 when you first learned that Blaskic had ordered Rajic
24 to reopen the road, on the 20th of October, "I saw that
25 the road was repaired." Is that correct?
1A. That's true, yes.
2 Q. Had you seen that the road was repaired prior
3 to the 20th of October when you reported it?
4 A. No, I didn't see that.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have no
7 Croatian translation. It's a big problem for our
8 client, from the beginning.
9 MR. HAYMAN: The microphones are coming on by
10 themselves, which may be related to the problem. Our
11 microphones, since the break, have been coming on and
12 off spontaneously. Mine off, and my colleague and my
13 client's on.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Oh, all right. Well, if we
15 have got to start everything all over again, that's
16 going to be complicated. You should have said
17 something earlier. You should have told us earlier.
18 I think that we're going to take a
19 five-minute break in order to fix the problem. Very
20 well. It will be better to do that then. All right.
21 We're going to suspend the hearing for a moment.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.43 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.
24 JUDGE JORDA: I don't know why I keep finding
25 myself on another channel here.
1Registrar, do you guarantee to us now that
2 everything is going to operate perfectly?
3 THE REGISTRAR: No, I cannot guarantee that.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Well, maybe we'll have some
6 All right. Things seem to be fixed.
7 Mr. Hayman?
8 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, Mr. President. I don't
9 think it's necessary to repeat any of the final
10 dialogue. We will ensure that it's translated
11 appropriately for our client, and he waives any right
12 to have it repeated.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. All right, General
14 Blaskic, do you agree with that? Is that all right,
15 General Blaskic?
16 MR. HAYMAN: His microphone is not working.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, Mr. Blaskic says "I
18 agree," but I can't say that --
19 THE ACCUSED: Your Honour, I've understood
20 the question.
21 JUDGE JORDA: That is a perfect example of a
22 conference between client and counsel.
23 All right. Continue, please.
24 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Returning for a moment to Exhibit 431, Major,
1which we would like to see if we can have it provided
2 to you. My question to you is: In the Dutch army,
3 would you have the same commander at three different
4 levels of command in the way that Ivica Rajic here
5 occupies positions at three different levels of
6 command? Would that happen on a permanent basis in the
7 Dutch army, if you know?
8 A. It is possible, yes.
9 Q. On a permanent basis?
10 A. Well, it is possible. I don't know whether
11 it happens at the moment right now, but it is possible.
12 Q. When would that be done in the Dutch army?
13 A. Normally when there is a lack of officers
14 from a certain category or of a certain knowledge.
15 Q. Now let's return to Rotilj, the village.
16 During your leave of absence on approximately the 31st
17 of October, 1993, did ECMM officers report that Caritas
18 was making regular deliveries of aid to the village of
20 A. It's correct that I was on leave at that
21 time, and my team member did report that, yes.
22 Q. Do you know whether the same aid, on a
23 per-capita basis, was given to the inhabitants of
24 Rotilj as was given to other Croat inhabitants of the
25 Kiseljak municipality by Caritas?
1A. I don't know myself whether there was aid
2 given by Caritas to the people in Rotilj because it's
3 something someone else reported.
4 Q. So you don't know anything about the quantity
5 or parity and distribution; is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. During the summer and fall of 1993, were
8 there approximately 15.000 refugees in the Kiseljak
10 A. At most. I think it is somewhere around
12 Q. Did those displaced persons include armed
13 persons, including soldiers of the HVO, who had
14 previously been in Travnik, Kakanj, and Vares?
15 A. It was just the whole population in Kiseljak,
17 Q. Including armed populations or soldiers from
18 those three other locations; correct?
19 A. Which other locations are you referring to?
20 Q. Travnik, Kakanj, and Vares.
21 A. I don't know whether they had been there
22 before, but it's just the population that was in the
23 Kiseljak pocket at that time, and there were people
24 from all over, from everywhere, so ...
25 Q. And did that include soldiers that had
1withdrawn or retreated from other locations, Croat
3 A. It included the soldiers who were in Kiseljak
5 Q. Let me ask you: Can you tell the court, were
6 the Muslim inhabitants of Rotilj, in your judgement,
7 were they safer inside the village of Rotilj than they
8 would have been if they had been living outside the
9 village in some other location in the Kiseljak
11 A. They weren't safe in any place, so I don't
12 think you can speak of safe or less safe. People died
13 in Rotilj, people were killed in Rotilj, so they
14 weren't safe anywhere.
15 Q. So you're not able to make a comparison; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you said the Muslim inhabitants were not
19 free to leave Rotilj. How is it they were kept captive
20 in Rotilj? By what means? Patrols? Fences? How were
21 they kept captive in this village?
22 A. The roads were closed by civilian police and
23 military checkpoints. They were patrolled, and there
24 was a regular visit of military and civil police and
25 also normal military people in the village.
1Q. How many checkpoints were there?
2 A. On the road from Kiseljak to Rotilj, one.
3 Q. Were there any other checkpoints around the
4 village, that is, on any roads -- roads and tracks
5 running in and out of the village? On the other sides
6 of the village, were there any other checkpoints?
7 A. It wasn't able to enter the village from the
8 other side by car, so I don't know.
9 Q. And it's your testimony that no one could
10 walk out of the village because there were constant HVO
11 patrols around the village? Is that your testimony?
12 A. Well, they could walk out of the village if
13 they didn't take the road. They would be able to go
14 out of the village.
15 Q. They would be able to go out of the village?
16 A. Yes, and then they were in the other part of
17 the Kiseljak pocket.
18 Q. Do you know whether Muslim inhabitants of
19 Rotilj ever went into Kiseljak, went into town to
20 conduct business?
21 A. Sometimes some of them were given permission
22 to visit a doctor or something in Kiseljak.
23 Q. So on those occasions, they would actually
24 pass out through the main checkpoint; is that right?
25 A. That's correct.
1Q. Were there any Croat inhabitants of Rotilj
2 during this time?
3 A. Not that I know of.
4 Q. Now, you said that you heard statements that
5 persons were being kept in Rotilj for exchanges. Who
6 told you that? Was that Josip Boro, the mayor?
7 A. Yes, and Vinko Lucic, the liaison officer
8 from HVO as well.
9 Q. Who made any such exchanges? Who organised
10 any such exchanges?
11 A. There was an exchange committee in Kiseljak,
12 it consisted of several people, and they dealt with the
14 Q. Were those exchanges of persons who asked to
15 be exchanged?
16 A. Not only -- no.
17 Q. So your testimony is there were people who
18 were forcibly exchanged who didn't want to be
19 exchanged; is that right?
20 A. That's also true because some of these
21 people, they were exchanged to areas where they didn't
22 want to go.
23 Q. Are you saying they wanted to be exchanged
24 but maybe not to Visoko and they went to Visoko, or
25 they didn't want to be exchanged at all?
1A. Well, in fact, it has nothing to do with
2 exchange, it has to do with the fact that people were
3 not safe there and they wanted to leave, so with or
4 without exchange, they just wanted to leave the
5 Kiseljak pocket.
6 Q. So the people who were exchanged were people
7 who wanted to leave the Kiseljak pocket; is that right?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Now, you said there were claims of forcible
10 rape made to you from one or more residents of Rotilj.
11 Do you know whether statements were taken from such
12 persons or were they ever examined by a physician?
13 A. I don't know of that, no.
14 Q. You also related a conversation with Vinko
15 Lucic in November of '93 when he said there was an
16 investigation ongoing of some incident in Rotilj that
17 had caused the death of, I believe, one person. Were
18 you given the facts concerning that incident? What
19 happened? Who were the perpetrators?
20 A. He only told us that these were three or four
21 men in uniform. That's all.
22 Q. You had no other facts concerning whether
23 they were drunk, whether they were from another area
24 who had been displaced, et cetera?
25 A. No, nothing.
1Q. You described the ethnic mix of Kiseljak and
2 Kresevo before the war and at some point during your
3 tour, and there are dramatic reductions in the Muslim
4 population of those two municipalities, according to
5 these statistics.
6 Can you tell the court, of the individuals
7 who apparently left those municipalities, how many of
8 them left before the conflict broke out in those
9 municipalities in 1993?
10 A. I don't know when they left or died or
11 whatever. I don't know.
12 Q. Do you know how many of them left when the BH
13 army pulled out or was defeated and retreated from
14 those villages in the Kiseljak enclave in which there
15 was a BH army presence?
16 A. Which villages are you referring to that BiH
17 army would have retreated from?
18 Q. Well, for example, in the village of
19 Gomionica, when there was a battle that went on for
20 some weeks between BH army units and the HVO. Do you
21 know, did any of the civilian population pull out as
22 the BH army withdrew from its positions, or do you not
24 A. It was not during my stay in Bosnia so ...
25 Q. So you don't know; is that correct?
1A. That's correct.
2 Q. You told us that on or about the 25th of
3 October, 1993, Emil Harah was replaced as the commander
4 of the Bobovac brigade in Vares, a brigade depicted on
5 Exhibit 431. Were you told who had ordered the removal
6 of Emil Harah as brigade commander?
7 A. No, I wasn't told. I was just told by Rajic
8 that Harah was removed.
9 Q. Several days after this event, were you
10 informed that Rajic had been removed by order of Mate
11 Boban? Did you gain that information in any form?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 MR. HAYMAN: If the usher could assist,
14 please? Mr. President, Defence Exhibit 154 and the
15 French translation 154A is a daily report of the ECMM,
16 co-authored by this witness, and I would ask that it be
17 placed before him.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This is D154 and D154A for
19 the translation.
20 MR. HAYMAN:
21 Q. First of all, Major, is this a daily report
22 co-authored by you and an ECMM colleague dated November
23 11, 1993?
24 A. You asked the question to me?
25 JUDGE JORDA: Major, you were asked a
1question. If you don't mind, when you answer, please
2 look at the Judges. All right? Thank you.
3 Yes, Mr. Hayman asked you a question, if you
4 would be able to identify or to recognise this
5 document. Take your time.
6 A. Yes. It is an ECMM document, and my name is
7 under it, but I wasn't there at the time. I was on
8 leave. It is just a block in the computer, why my
9 name's there.
10 MR. HAYMAN:
11 Q. And in this report -- I apologise,
12 Mr. President. My microphone goes off periodically,
13 but I don't think it's a problem. I simply can turn it
14 back on.
15 In this report in paragraph 1(b) --
16 JUDGE JORDA: I can assure you that it's not
17 the President that's having an effect on your
19 MR. HAYMAN:
20 Q. In this report, is there, in paragraph 1(b),
21 can you add anything based on conversations with your
22 ECMM colleagues or otherwise to the statement as
23 follows. This is the fifth bullet point under
24 paragraph 1(b): "The big rumour in the streets of
25 Kiseljak is that Ivica Rajic, commander HVO Kiseljak,
1is not in command anymore, and for the time being
2 replaced by General Petkovic. The Croatian Press
3 stated that Rajic is sacked of his duties by order from
4 the Office of the President of the Croatian Republic
5 Herceg-Bosna, Mate Boban, due to heavy condition of
6 defence of territory in Central Bosnia and co-relations
7 with UNHCR and UNPROFOR and the course of
8 investigations on responsibilities."
9 Major, can you add anything to that report?
10 A. Only that it's not something I reported, that
11 it is, as it says, a rumour in the streets, and
12 something about the Press. So I cannot add anything.
13 Q. Let me ask you if you have anything to add to
14 the passage at paragraph 7 of this same report on the
15 next page, which is a comment. First, let me add,
16 comments are the views of the author; is that what it
17 means in ECMM format, to have a comment?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. The comment reads as follows: "It is still
20 not clear what is going on in the Kiseljak area, but
21 the situation is tense. CANBAT advised everybody to be
22 escorted when moving into Kiseljak (this is a little
23 overdone). It seems that Rajic has been replaced
24 because of his attitude towards UNHCR last week. This
25 can cause another internal problem in Kiseljak since
1Rajic has a sort of a private army."
2 Do you have anything to add to that
3 statement, Major?
4 A. No. It's not my statement.
5 Q. Do you agree with it or do you disagree with
7 MR. CAYLEY: Objection.
8 A. I don't know.
9 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, defence counsel
10 is asking the witness, first of all, to comment on a
11 statement that he didn't even make, and then he's
12 asking him whether he agrees with it. He simply can't
13 be asked to give evidence in this fashion.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Objection sustained, especially
15 since the witness said that he didn't write it and that
16 his name is there only because of the computer. I
17 think that the witness has already answered,
18 Mr. Hayman. Please move to another question.
19 MR. HAYMAN:
20 Q. You described learning of threats made to, I
21 believe, UNHCR by Ivica Rajic. Can you describe those
22 threats in any more detail?
23 A. We heard from Vinko Lucic, liaison officer,
24 that Rajic had threatened a UNHCR officer; and from
25 UNHCR, I don't remember which person from UNHCR, we
1heard that a field officer was threatened with his life
2 by Rajic.
3 Q. Was Ivica Rajic what you would term an
4 aggressive individual?
5 A. Well, he didn't look really aggressive, no.
6 Q. Now, you were asked whether you ever saw a
7 report of investigation into Stupni Do. Is it correct
8 that on the 22nd of November, 1993, you met that day,
9 in the headquarters of the HVO in Kiseljak, an HVO
10 security officer from Mostar named Ivan Bandic who told
11 you that he was investigating the matter of Stupni Do
12 and, in general, all the matters where HVO soldiers
13 were involved with war crimes. Is that correct?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Did you understand Mr. Bandic to be part of
16 the security service apparently headquartered or based
17 in Mostar?
18 A. He just told us that he was from the
19 headquarters and that he was a security officer. I
20 don't know where he belonged to.
21 Q. Did you understand him to report then to
22 entities in Mostar not depicted on Exhibit 431?
23 A. He didn't tell us whom he reported to.
24 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, I offer into
25 evidence Exhibits D153, D154, and D154A.
1MR. CAYLEY: I'm going to object to both of
2 those documents. First of all, D153 is a document
3 which the witness stated that he didn't recognise.
4 Secondly, D154 is a document which the witness stated
5 was not authored by him; he cannot recognise any of the
6 comments in the document. He simply can't authenticate
7 any of these documents, so they should not be admitted
8 into evidence.
9 MR. HAYMAN: Then I'll proceed to ask the
10 witness. I hadn't rested -- completed my questions,
11 and I'd ask that the two exhibits be placed before the
12 witness, D153 and D154.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Continue, Mr. Hayman.
14 MR. HAYMAN:
15 Q. Turning your attention, Major, to Exhibit
16 D153, the background report concerning Fojnica. First
17 of all, on the last page of that report, do you
18 recognise your initials?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And, in fact, did you place your initials on
21 that document on or about the 6th of -- excuse me, the
22 12th of June, 1996, when you tendered a copy of this
23 report to a representative of the Office of the
25 A. That's correct.
1Q. Did you take this report from your own
2 personal archives and records pertaining to your
3 service in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Is it an accurate and authentic copy of a
6 report that was, in fact, generated by the ECMM at the
8 A. It is.
9 Q. Now let me ask you to turn your attention to
10 Exhibit D154. That is the two-page Monitor Team Daily
11 Report dated November 11, 1993, and let me ask you:
12 First of all, do you recognise the initials in the
13 lower left-hand corner of the first page as those of
14 Mr. Stutt who was, at the time, the chief of the
15 regional centre Zenica for the ECMM?
16 A. I don't recognise his initials. He was HCC.
17 Q. "HCC"?
18 A. "Head of the Coordination Centre."
19 Q. Do you recognise the -- first of all, do you
20 know who Lars Jensen is?
21 A. Yes. He was a Danish monitor in ECMM.
22 Q. Did he serve on the V-3 team with you?
23 A. No, he didn't. Maybe he went a couple of
24 days with me, but he served together with Carstensen.
25 Q. Do you know when you were absent, apparently
1due to leave, was he assigned during that period of
2 time to the V-3 team?
3 A. Yes, it's possible.
4 Q. Are you able to tell the court that this
5 report is, in fact, an ECMM report? Can you tell the
6 court that? Can you confirm that to the court?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 MR. HAYMAN: I offer both exhibits,
9 Mr. President.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Both documents are admitted.
11 MR. HAYMAN: I have concluded my
12 examination. Thank you, Mr. President, and thank you,
14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I think that
15 Mr. Cayley wants to exercise his right of redirect.
16 MR. CAYLEY: I do. Thank you,
17 Mr. President.
18 Re-examined by Mr. Cayley:
19 Q. Now, you were asked a number of questions in
20 your cross-examination on matters that were not
21 referred to in your examination-in-chief, and I'd like
22 to develop that with you.
23 You were asked specifically a question about
24 access between the Kiseljak pocket and the Vitez
25 pocket, and you mentioned that there were a number of
1mountain roads that could be taken between these two
2 pockets. Can you tell the Judges about those mountain
4 A. Well, there isn't much to tell about these
5 roads. They were just mountain roads which we could
6 use to go to an area of Kiseljak or Fojnica. It was
7 partly through BiH territory. But sometimes we didn't
8 see any soldiers. The roads were not closed; there
9 were no checkpoints. There's nothing much to say
11 Q. And that linked Vitez and Kiseljak?
12 A. Yes, possible.
13 Q. And there were no large formations of Bosnian
14 soldiers, no military fortifications on these roads?
15 A. No, not on the roads, no.
16 Q. Now, you were asked a number of questions
17 about the road between Kiseljak and Visoko that was
18 damaged around about the 9th of October of 1993. How
19 big was that hole in the road?
20 A. Somewhere between 10 and 15 metres wide and,
21 I think, 4 to 5 metres deep.
22 Q. That's a big hole, isn't it, in the ground?
23 A. Well, yeah. Well, just part of the road was
24 gone and it slid into the river.
25 Q. And you were informed that on or about the
112th of October of 1993, Colonel Blaskic ordered
2 Mr. Rajic to fix the road.
3 A. Yes, that was the -- Vinko Lucic told us.
4 Q. And you actually used that road on the 20th
5 of October of 1993?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And the hole had been filled in?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. So is it fair to say that that road was
10 repaired some time before the 20th of October of 1993?
11 A. I don't know exactly when it was finished,
12 but, of course, they had to start before the 20th, yes.
13 Q. That's a big job, isn't it, to do, between
14 the 12th of October and the 20th of October of 1993?
15 A. It was a big hole.
16 Q. Faster than the repair of Dutch roadworks?
17 A. Well, they tend to take their time, but I
18 cannot compare that.
19 Q. Now, you were asked a number of questions
20 about the Muslims in the village of Rotilj, and I think
21 you stated that the Muslims in Rotilj were not safe in
22 any place, and then my learned friend Mr. Hayman added
23 some commentary, and he said you weren't able to make a
25 Now, can you state for the transcript what
1you mean by the fact that Muslims in Kiseljak were not
2 safe anywhere?
3 A. Well, I mean that they weren't safe -- they
4 didn't feel secure. They were afraid of harassment and
5 injuries, so ...
6 Q. People were really frightened in Rotilj
7 village, weren't they?
8 A. Yes, they were.
9 MR. CAYLEY: I don't have any further
10 questions, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Cayley.
12 Judge Riad?
13 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Major Meijboom.
14 A. Good morning, sir.
15 JUDGE RIAD: I just have a few
16 clarifications. You mentioned that, when you visited
17 the front-line, "I had heard Stanic announcing that all
18 Muslims should be killed," and even nailed, as you
19 said, even nailed to a cross and so on.
20 Would this be a very personal view, or do you
21 think he is reflecting the view of the HVO?
22 A. It was his view which he stated every time
23 when we met him.
24 JUDGE RIAD: Was it implemented, you think,
25 the implementation followed his view?
1A. By his soldiers, you mean?
2 JUDGE RIAD: Yes.
3 A. I didn't see anything of these results, so I
4 don't know.
5 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know. Then, in
6 Rotilj, you had women who claimed to be raped.
7 A. That's correct.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Was there any complaint of that
9 and was it presented to the authorities?
10 A. Yes, it was. I know it was also under
11 investigation of U.N. Civ. Po., United Nations Civil
12 Police, but I don't know anything of the results of
13 that investigation.
14 JUDGE RIAD: But who was supposed to take the
15 matter in hand? Was it the HVO or the United Nations
17 A. Well, in fact, it should have been done by
18 the police in Kiseljak because it's a civil crime, I
19 think, but it was done together with United Nations
20 civil police.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Was there any result?
22 A. Not that I'm aware of.
23 JUDGE RIAD: No punishment?
24 A. No, I don't know.
25 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know. And then
1concerning the attack on Stupni Do, you saw trucks,
2 three trucks coming from Stupni Do with soldiers whom
3 you heard complaining that they had a dirty job.
4 A. Correct.
5 JUDGE RIAD: Could you describe more what you
6 heard? What did they do?
7 A. No, I don't know what they did. It's just
8 what they told to the other team leader and he
9 transferred it to me.
10 JUDGE RIAD: But they said it to the other
11 team leader?
12 A. They said that -- they didn't go into detail,
13 they just said they had to do a job they didn't like
14 and that they had nothing to do with what happened the
15 day before or two days before in Stupni Do.
16 JUDGE RIAD: So it was vague. There was no
17 indication of the kind of job they did.
18 A. No, they weren't specific.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Weren't specific. They said
20 that they didn't like it.
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Did you hear that more often,
23 that a few soldiers didn't like what they were doing?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE RIAD: They liked it?
1A. No, I don't know. They didn't tell me.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Now, concerning the removal of
3 Rajic. Of course, this -- if you are in a position to
4 tell me. Do you think removal of such an important
5 officer in the army should come from the top, or can
6 the commander remove his subordinates?
7 A. Yes, the commander can remove his
9 JUDGE RIAD: But he was not removed -- was he
10 removed by Colonel Blaskic or by Petkovic?
11 A. I don't know.
12 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know that. But you
13 heard that Rajic received orders directly from
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE RIAD: No?
17 A. No.
18 JUDGE RIAD: He did not. And you
19 mentioned -- I gather that he would sometimes be
20 reluctant to execute the orders of Colonel Blaskic. He
21 would not execute them immediately.
22 A. Well, if you refer to the repair of the road.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Yes.
24 A. It happened, but it didn't happen
25 immediately, that's correct.
1JUDGE RIAD: But he executed them --
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE RIAD: -- all the same?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE RIAD: But otherwise, he would execute
6 the orders. He did not --
7 A. Well, I don't know what kind of orders
8 Mr. Rajic got from his commander, so I can't know which
9 orders he followed or he didn't.
10 JUDGE RIAD: The one concerning the road, you
11 knew about it?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE RIAD: That he took some time to
14 execute it?
15 A. That's correct.
16 JUDGE RIAD: But he could not continue
18 A. That's correct.
19 JUDGE RIAD: So being in the area, could you
20 say that the authority of Colonel Blaskic was not
22 A. No, I can't say it. What do you mean?
23 JUDGE RIAD: He was the commander.
24 A. Yeah.
25 JUDGE RIAD: And he had the authority in
2 A. Yes, I think so, yes.
3 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Judge Shahabuddeen
5 has no questions, nor do I.
6 Major, the Tribunal thanks you for having
7 come to testify at the request of the Prosecutor.
8 Registrar, could we have the witness
9 accompanied out of the courtroom, please?
10 (The witness withdrew)
11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley -- I don't know
12 whether Mr. Harmon or Mr. Cayley. How do you want to
13 use this afternoon?
14 MR. CAYLEY: We don't have any further
15 witnesses to proceed with, Mr. President, but my
16 learned friend, Mr. Harmon, has some evidence that he
17 does wish to offer to the court at this point. It can
18 probably be done before lunch. It's not going to take
19 very long.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Right now, you mean? About how
21 long do we need for that?
22 MR. CAYLEY: Five minutes, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Five minutes. Well, I think
24 the interpreters could grant us the five minutes. Very
25 well. Thank you so much.
1Mr. Harmon, for the presentation of some
2 additional evidence. At your own initiative.
3 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President, and
5 Mr. President, we would tender an exhibit to
6 the Trial Chamber, and I will explain what this exhibit
7 is as soon as it is distributed. If I could have the
8 assistance of the usher, please?
9 THE REGISTRAR: This is 432.
10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we tender this
11 exhibit in respect of evidence that was led about the
12 shelling in Zenica. As the Trial Chamber may recall,
13 there was testimony from an investigating judge who
14 investigated the events around the Zenica shelling.
15 There were a number of photographs showing the effect
16 of the Zenica shelling, including bodies of those
17 victims who died as a result.
18 The Trial Chamber asked us at one point
19 during the course of the presentation of that evidence
20 whether there was any proof connecting the shelling to
21 the deaths of the individuals who were depicted in the
22 photograph. We have secured from Dr. Faruk Turkic, who
23 is a specialist in pathology and a previous witness who
24 testified before Your Honours, a statement that reports
25 on the connection between the bodies that were visible
1in the photographs and their cause of death. So this
2 is to augment the testimony and the evidence in respect
3 of the Zenica shelling, and we offer it accordingly.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. No comments from
5 Mr. Hayman?
6 MR. HAYMAN: We have no objections other than
7 those previously stated, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE JORDA: I understand the nuance that
9 you're making. It is admitted subject to the previous
10 comments. I think that Mr. Harmon merely wanted to
11 show in this document that -- it is called -- this is
12 the report further to the 13 people killed at the front
13 of the Zenica store on the 13th of April.
14 Very well. We're going to adjourn now until
15 the 13th of July, Monday, 13th of July, at 2.30. Thank
16 you very much.
17 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
18 12.55 p.m., to be reconvened on
19 Monday, the 13th day of July, 1998,
20 at 2.30 p.m.