Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11782

1 Tuesday, 22nd September, 1998

2 (Open session)

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.14 a.m.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Registrar,

5 could you please bring in the accused?

6 (The accused entered court)

7 JUDGE JORDA: Can everyone hear me? First of

8 all, I would like to greet the interpreters. I hope

9 everybody is ready, and we are now going to continue

10 with the cross-examination, as soon as Brigadier Zeko

11 will come and join us. Yes, Ivica Zeko.

12 Let me just seize this occasion, after this

13 witness, our colleague, Olivier Fourmy, has informed me

14 of a number of points, and I would like to know how far

15 we have gone with our schedule from now to the end of

16 the year. I think that we can have a small Status

17 Conference on this matter before the next witness comes

18 in, an informal Status Conference, either just before

19 the next witness comes in, and Mr. Olivier Fourmy will

20 be with us.

21 Is the witness ready?

22 (The witness entered court)

23 JUDGE JORDA: Can you hear me, Brigadier?


25 JUDGE JORDA: You may be seated. If you have

Page 11783

1 rested, we can proceed now. Thank you.

2 Mr. Harmon, you may proceed.

3 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours.

4 Good morning, Counsel.


6 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:

7 Q. Good morning, Brigadier Zeko.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Brigadier, did the HVO in Central Bosnia

10 mount offensive operations against the Serbs in 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did they mount offence operations against the

13 Serbs in 1993 in Central Bosnia?

14 A. They had frontlines with the Serbs, yes, but

15 they did not undertake any offensive actions.

16 Q. Now, before the HVO mounted offensive

17 operations against the Serbs in 1992, did your

18 intelligence operation provide intelligence information

19 to Colonel Blaskic before each of those offensive

20 operations?

21 A. Yes. Those operations were mostly holding

22 those current frontlines, but there were not any major

23 operations.

24 Q. The type of intelligence operation that you

25 furnished to Colonel Blaskic before the operations

Page 11784

1 against the Serb positions, can you tell us what kind

2 of information that included?

3 A. Well, those were the status and the

4 deployment of the enemy.

5 Q. When you say "the status and deployment," you

6 mean where the enemy was located, in which positions;

7 is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What else do you mean?

10 A. Where they were and how the units were

11 deployed along those lines.

12 Q. Now, did Colonel Blaskic routinely request

13 that kind of information from you before he mounted an

14 operation?

15 A. Just one correction, please. You were

16 mentioning Colonel Blaskic, whether he asked that from

17 me. I was the deputy head of the staff for

18 intelligence. I would always report to my superior,

19 and then he would have his duties towards the head of

20 the operational centre of Central Bosnia. So I carried

21 out my duties, regardless of the fact whether any

22 operations were to be mounted or not.

23 Q. Who is the head of your intelligence

24 section? You said you were the deputy. Who was the

25 head of it?

Page 11785

1 A. The head of the intelligence department in

2 the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia was I, but in the

3 staff, the head of the staff of the headquarters to

4 which I belong was Franjo Nakic.

5 Q. Now, my question to you, Brigadier, was did

6 Colonel Blaskic routinely request intelligence

7 information from you before he mounted an operation?

8 A. I don't recall whether I had any tasks like

9 that, any requests of the kind.

10 Q. Now, let me turn your attention to the visual

11 aids and this very impressive visual production that

12 you have testified about. Did you prepare these aids

13 yourself?

14 A. No. I prepared everything on the maps and on

15 paper, and I gave it to the Defence team.

16 Q. On what did you rely to prepare these various

17 visual aids?

18 A. I relied on my notes, the notes that I made

19 during the war.

20 Q. Did you rely on any other documents, besides

21 the notes that you made during the war?

22 A. Mostly the notes.

23 Q. What else did you rely on, Brigadier?

24 A. I said mostly on the notes, because the data

25 that I had, the information that I had, that is

Page 11786

1 something that I took note of just very shortly.

2 Q. Did you rely on any orders of any kind? Did

3 you rely on any intercepted orders of any kind?

4 A. All that is in my notes, all the orders I got

5 hold of and all the information I could get hold of.

6 So I always took notes about these things.

7 Q. So we can clarify this point, Brigadier, are

8 we talking about personal notes that you made or are we

9 talking about personal archives that you've kept?

10 A. No, about personal notes.

11 Q. I'm sorry. I did not understand your

12 answer.

13 A. What I said now, I said about personal notes.

14 Q. Did you rely on any archival documents?

15 A. I said all the documents that came into my

16 hands, I took personal notes of that, so whatever went

17 through the archives, whatever I put in the archives.

18 Q. Now, after you took personal notes of these

19 documents, what did you do with the documents? Did you

20 send them to an archives?

21 A. I took notes during the whole wartime period

22 in my diary, but later on, I did not go back to the

23 archives because I already had everything.

24 Q. Listen to my question very carefully, please,

25 Brigadier. The documents from which you took your

Page 11787

1 personal notes were sent to an archives; is that

2 correct?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What was done with those documents?

5 A. I said that all the documents that I had and

6 all the estimates that I had made, I also kept a diary

7 and made my own notes, an internal diary. And while I

8 was preparing the notes for now, the ones that I told

9 of you, I did not go back to the archives.

10 Q. You misunderstood my question, Brigadier. My

11 question was, after you took a document and made a note

12 from it --

13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, I wouldn't like us

14 to go too far away from our goals here. What are you

15 trying to achieve? What the Judges want to know is

16 whether, through all the documents that were presented

17 and commented on by the Defence witness, you consider

18 that his evidence is relevant or not. Let us not make

19 any mistakes on that, and please let us go forward, in

20 as much as we can.

21 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

22 Q. Brigadier, let me take the first visual aid,

23 and I have one small question about that.

24 MR. HARMON: If we could have the assistance

25 of the usher and, Mr. Dubuisson, if you could place the

Page 11788

1 small number 1 on the ELMO.

2 Q. Brigadier, I just have one or two small

3 questions about this particular visual aid that you

4 assisted in the preparation of.

5 THE REGISTRAR: This is number D183/1.


7 Q. Can you see that on your monitor, Brigadier?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The only question I have about this

10 particular exhibit, Brigadier, you see the

11 Vitez-Busovaca pocket and then the Kiseljak pocket

12 depicted in pale yellow in an area surrounded by green?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What time period does that particular

15 configuration of the two pockets come from? Which

16 year, what month, if you're able to tell us?

17 A. This state of affairs was valid already after

18 the Washington Agreement was signed.

19 Q. Thank you, Brigadier. Now, if we could put

20 4B on the ELMO, Brigadier, do you see that on your

21 monitor?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, in your testimony, you failed to give us

24 a particular date. On the top of this diagram, it says

25 that this is the organisational formation, and it

Page 11789

1 indicates the 1st of December, 1992. Does this

2 diagram, 4B, represent the structure of the 3rd Corps

3 on the 1st of December, 1992?

4 A. Just a moment. I must check in my notes.

5 Yes, the 1st of December, 1992.

6 Q. As I understood your testimony, you prepared

7 this based on your notes exclusively; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yesterday, you corrected this schematic, as I

10 recall in your testimony, and you added four additional

11 brigades, the 315th and 316th Brigades from Visoko, the

12 370th Brigade from Donji Vakuf, and the 311th Brigade

13 from Kakanj, and those, you indicated, should fall

14 under the area of mountain brigades, if I'm correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, in your previous testimony, and I'm

17 referring to the English transcript at page 11649, you

18 indicated, Brigadier, that the 3rd Corps of the army --

19 I'm sorry, Counsel. I'm referring to lines 20 and 21.

20 You indicated that the 3rd Corps of the army of Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina was set up on the 1st of December,

22 1992. Do you remember that testimony?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, what was the date of the establishment

25 of the corps in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Page 11790

1 A. The 3rd of September, 1992.

2 MR. HARMON: If I could have the assistance

3 of the usher, I would like to have the following

4 exhibit marked as the next Prosecutor's order. For the

5 record, Mr. President and Your Honours, this is an

6 exhibit which has been translated only into English,

7 and it is in the original BCS language.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This is document 467 and 467A

9 for the English translation.


11 Q. Now, Brigadier, do you see Prosecution

12 Exhibit 467 in front of you? Do you see it in your

13 language?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The decision that established the corps

16 structures established those structures on the 18th of

17 August, 1992; isn't that correct? If you turn to the

18 last page, you'll see a date and, Colonel, you'll also

19 see about that date, you'll see a sentence that reads

20 that the decision shall enter into force on the day

21 that it is issued?

22 A. The date is beneath the number, Sarajevo, the

23 11th of August, 1992.

24 Q. Let me correct you, sir. It's August the

25 18th of 1992; is it not?

Page 11791

1 A. Yes, yes, on this exhibit of yours.

2 Q. At the bottom, it has, at least, a stamp of

3 President Izetbegovic on the lower right-hand side of

4 the last page; correct? Do you see the name "Ilija

5 Izetbegovic" on that document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, let's examine that document together,

8 Brigadier. I direct your attention to the first

9 article of that document on the first page?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The first article establishes five corps,

12 does it not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, referring to the second article, and I'd

15 like to direct your attention to 2nd Corps, second

16 article, where it essentially identifies each of the

17 municipalities where each of the corps will have

18 authority; is that correct?

19 A. The second article indicates the

20 municipalities which were covered by the 2nd Corps.

21 Q. And all five corps; isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I won't name them all, but in 2nd Corps,

24 there are approximately 20 municipalities or so, a

25 large number of municipalities over which 3rd Corps had

Page 11792

1 responsibility; is that correct?

2 A. You said the 2nd Corps covering 20

3 municipalities which were also covered by the 3rd

4 Corps, so I didn't quite understand.

5 Q. I think there was a translation problem,

6 Brigadier. Let me just get directly to the point. The

7 municipalities, where each of the corps had

8 responsibility, are identified in Article 2 of this

9 particular decision; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, I direct your attention to the 1st Corps

12 area of responsibility, please. Do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is Fojnica municipality in the area of 1st

15 Corps?

16 A. In this document, yes.

17 Q. And is Visoko also in the area of

18 responsibility as defined in this document?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, if I could have the assistance of the

21 usher, and if the usher would kindly place this map on

22 the easel. Brigadier, would you kindly approach the

23 map on the easel and take one of the coloured pens

24 that's next to you, and would you please draw the

25 boundaries of 3rd Corps as they existed on April 16th,

Page 11793

1 1993?

2 A. I have already shown you that boundary. The

3 3rd Corps, the zone of responsibility of the 3rd Corps.

4 THE REGISTRAR: The number of this document

5 is 468.


7 Q. Brigadier, could you just take your --

8 MR. HARMON: It's difficult with my tether to

9 not block the diagram, Mr. President.

10 Q. Brigadier, can you hear what I'm saying,

11 clearly?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You have drawn on with a red line going in a

14 direction towards Croatia?

15 A. The line --

16 JUDGE JORDA: For the Judges, it's not very

17 easy. The map is far away. The camera is doing what

18 it can. Everyone is around the map. I would like to

19 understand.

20 Mr. Harmon, you want to ask the witness the

21 boundaries of the command of the 3rd army corps. My

22 question is to Mr. Harmon, are you doing it in relation

23 to a document of a map produced by the witness? Is

24 that the comparison you're making, because otherwise, I

25 have to go up to the map. What is the comparison that

Page 11794

1 you're trying to make? That is what I want to

2 understand.

3 MR. HARMON: What I'm attempting to

4 establish, Mr. President, first of all, this witness is

5 an expert on 3rd Corps, he's testified about 3rd Corps,

6 and I would like him to diagram the area where 3rd

7 Corps had its geographic limits on the 16th of April,

8 1993, and that's my question and he has put a diagram

9 for us.

10 Q. Now, Brigadier, there is no line between

11 these two points. Can you draw the line where 3rd

12 Corps had its geographic limits on April 16th?

13 A. Yes. The line that I have drawn, you told me

14 it was going to Croatia. That has nothing to do with

15 Croatia. So if you saw my map, I draw it much better

16 there, I should indicate the position of the Bosnian

17 Serb army, then the positions of the HVO on this map,

18 and then I should give you the zone of responsibility

19 of the 3rd Corps. I said that Gornji Vakuf and Visoko

20 were included. This line went as far as the Bosnian

21 Serb army, so I gave you the zone of responsibilities

22 indicated with a line which, in military terminology,

23 does not mark any limit. So forget the line. I'm just

24 saying that I've indicated the left and right

25 boundaries of the zone of responsibility of the 3rd

Page 11795

1 Corps.

2 Q. My question, Brigadier, is what is the

3 southern boundary of the 3rd Corps which seems to be

4 missing a line? Did it go down as far as Mostar?

5 A. No. In my presentation, I said that it was

6 the zone of responsibility which coincided with the

7 zone of responsibility of the Operative Zone of Central

8 Bosnia. And in military terms, this is how zones of

9 responsibilities are indicated. But to give you a full

10 idea of the deployment, I would need to draw in all the

11 elements on this map.

12 Q. Brigadier, I would like to be a little

13 simpler than that. Where does the zone of

14 responsibility for 3rd Corps end in this region? How

15 far down did it go? Can you draw a line connecting

16 these two points?

17 A. If I were to link these two points, I would

18 be missing the 4th Corps out, I would be leaving it

19 out, and it was operating from Jablanica.

20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, wouldn't it be

21 simpler to ask the witness, whether in relation to the

22 decision of Mr. Izetbegovic, whether the south limits

23 indicating the municipalities of the 3rd Corps, does it

24 have a southern boundary, a southern limit in this

25 document? Could the witness answer this question,

Page 11796

1 otherwise, I shall have to get up and look at the map,

2 and I'm not very knowledgeable about topography. I

3 understand that you're going to call in question the

4 credibility of the witness, but in the decision of

5 Izetbegovic of the 18th of August, which of the

6 municipalities, which are the furthest south. Perhaps

7 that is not the best way of wording the question, but

8 that's what I'm trying to put across.

9 MR. HARMON: Mr. President --

10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may join in

11 this discussion, I'm afraid that there may be an

12 unintentional confusion by prompting the witness to

13 give an erroneous answer, because Izetbegovic's

14 decision is dated the 18th of August 1992, and my

15 distinguished colleague is asking about the zone of

16 responsibility of the 3rd Corps on the 16th of April,

17 1993, and this is a big difference because zones of

18 responsibility change. So we have to be very careful

19 as regards the date we're talking about.

20 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Nobilo. We have

21 to be very clear, Mr. Harmon. These are professional

22 Judges. These games are accepted, but one has to be

23 very clear. What exactly is your question regarding

24 the 16th of April, '93? What do you wish to get from

25 the witness so that the Judges could also understand

Page 11797

1 what it is you're aiming at? And then the Judges will

2 see whether this is in contradiction with what he has

3 said or not. What is your question? Be very clear,

4 please.

5 MR. HARMON: My question, Mr. President, is

6 on the 16th of April, can you please draw the area of

7 responsibility of the 3rd Corps of the Bosnian army?

8 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Fine. Is the

9 witness going to do it? Are you capable of answering

10 that or not, on the 16th of April, 1993?

11 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, yes, I am

12 capable of doing it. I have indicated the left and

13 right limits of the zone of responsibility of the 3rd

14 Corps. However, if I draw in the southern limit, which

15 the Prosecutor is asking me to do, then that zone of

16 responsibility enters into the zone of responsibility

17 of the 4th Corps. I have indicated the northern

18 boundary which links up with the other units.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, that is the

20 answer. You have asked a question. Do you have

21 another question to ask? You may not agree with the

22 boundaries of the 4th Corps. If you have a question on

23 the 4th Corps, put it, but the witness has answered

24 your question. Do we agree?

25 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm not

Page 11798

1 interested, particularly, in the boundary of the 4th

2 Corps. I'm interested in where the line on the

3 southern part of this area of responsibility ended for

4 the 3rd Corps, a very simple point.

5 JUDGE JORDA: But he told you that the

6 southern boundary coincides with the 4th Corps of the

7 army.

8 Is that it, Brigadier?

9 Either you wish to make maps of the

10 overlapping, or you can proceed to another question, so

11 please move forward.

12 MR. HARMON: Well, I will yield at this

13 point, Mr. President. I don't believe the witness is

14 able to draw this line in. I yield.

15 MR. HAYMAN: Counsel can keep his comments to

16 himself, please, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, quite. The word "yield"

18 is not quite proper among professional Judges. The

19 Judges are not asking you to yield. I never ask a

20 party, nor do my colleagues ask for anyone to yield on

21 a question. I'm just trying to organise the debate to

22 make it more effective and clearer, so not yielding

23 anything. If you have another question to put, go

24 ahead. All I'm asking is that you shouldn't ask such

25 complicated questions. Make them clear, and you will

Page 11799

1 get clearer answers.

2 I have to remind you that we are

3 professionals. There's no place in trying to impress

4 non-professional Judges, and, Mr. Hayman, thank you for

5 your remark anyway.

6 Let's proceed now, Mr. Harmon.

7 MR. HARMON: I will come back on one

8 additional question, Mr. President.

9 Q. Brigadier Zeko, can you draw a line

10 separating the area of responsibility from the 3rd

11 Corps and the 4th Corps on that map?

12 A. That has already been done. The 4th Corps

13 covered the area exclusive of Gornji Vakuf, not

14 counting Gornji Vakuf, exclusive of Gornji Vakuf

15 (indicating). This is the zone of responsibility of

16 the 4th Corps, and over here is the zone of

17 responsibility of the 1st Corps.

18 Q. Can you mark it, please, for us?

19 A. (Marks)

20 Q. Thank you, Brigadier. You can have a seat.

21 A. I didn't quite understand your question.

22 Yes.

23 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, would you please

24 place this back on the ELMO? Mr. Dubuisson, could the

25 map be marked as a Prosecution Exhibit?

Page 11800

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, of course, 468.


3 Q. Now, I would like to direct your attention,

4 Brigadier, to the various brigades that are listed

5 under the mountain brigades. Let me ask you, directing

6 your attention first to the first item, 302nd

7 Zenica. Are you aware that that particular brigade was

8 located in the area of 1st Corps on the 16th of April,

9 1993?

10 A. Could you repeat your question, please?

11 Q. Your diagram indicates that this particular

12 brigade was based in Zenica; is that correct?

13 A. The 302nd Brigade is from Visoko.

14 Q. The 302nd Brigade is from Visoko. Is that

15 what you're testifying to now?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. So the schematic is in error where it says

18 it's from Zenica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was the brigade called the 302nd Mountain

21 Brigade or was it called the 302nd Motorised Brigade?

22 A. Let me clear this up. All light and mountain

23 brigades during the war developed into motorised

24 brigades, and the light brigades developed into

25 mountain brigades because of the personnel arriving in

Page 11801

1 the territory. So that either other brigades had to be

2 formed or because of their numerical strength, they

3 developed into mountain brigades which numbered 1.800

4 men to 2.200 men. So that, depending on the

5 availability of vehicles and other equipment, these

6 brigades were transformed into motorised brigades, but

7 I can't tell you exactly when each one of them were

8 transferred into motorised brigades and when the light

9 ones were transferred into mountain brigades.

10 Q. Let me direct your attention to the fourth

11 item down in that column, which is indicated as the

12 304th Breza. Do you see that?

13 A. Could you repeat which one you're referring

14 to, going down the line?

15 Q. Brigadier, I'm going down the lines of the

16 fourth item, 304th Mountain Brigade Breza. Do you see

17 that? I'm referring to the mountain brigades?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Now, was Breza located in the area of

20 responsibility of 3rd Corps or 1st Corps on December

21 1st, 1992?

22 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, it's not very

23 legible on some of the screens, so I would suggest that

24 we provide the witness with the original documents --

25 MR. HARMON: No objection.

Page 11802

1 MR. NOBILO: -- to read from.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Please proceed.

3 Let us try and speed up a little bit. Have you heard,

4 Witness, it is the fourth yellow frame referring to the

5 304th Mountain Brigade of Breza. Can you see it now,

6 Brigadier?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, I can.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Your question, Mr. Harmon?


10 Q. My question was: On December the 1st, was

11 that located in the 1st Corps area of responsibility or

12 the 3rd Corps area of responsibility?

13 A. It was under the 3rd Corps area of

14 responsibility.

15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, I have a question

16 for you. I want to know where we're going. Are you

17 contesting the totality of this schematic or only some

18 aspects of it? I think that we have to be clear in

19 this debate. In that case, the Judges know that you

20 are contesting the totality of this document. If I

21 understood you well, first, you contested the source.

22 You wanted to learn from the witness where these

23 documents came from, and the witness gave you an

24 answer. Now we're going to the next stage. We are not

25 going to go at random like this, whether this brigade

Page 11803

1 was there or not.

2 My question is as follows: If you are

3 contesting the totality of this scheme, on the basis of

4 which document you are doing it? In other words, my

5 question is: Are you contesting the totality of the

6 document regarding certain minor contradictions, or do

7 you believe that you have something to contest

8 regarding the totality of the document? In that case,

9 you should say, "I'm going to contest such and such a

10 point and the totality." That is what I'm trying to

11 say. You can do what you wish, but please, for God's

12 sake, let's try and speed things up a little bit. Do

13 you understand what I'm trying to say? Your duty is to

14 tell the Judges, "I do not agree with such and such,

15 Travnik, 312th Brigade," and that would be a clear

16 question. Ask the witness regarding this particular

17 brigade. Let's try and speed things up a little bit,

18 please.

19 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, so I can clarify

20 for Your Honours, I contest a significant number of

21 items that are described on this particular schematic.

22 The witness has presented this as the organisation and

23 formation of the 3rd Corps on the 1st of December,

24 1992. It is the Prosecutor's position that he is

25 erroneous in a significant number of particulars, and I

Page 11804

1 want to ask him about those particulars, one by one.

2 JUDGE JORDA: I agree. But do you, yourself,

3 have a document? If you have a document, it would be

4 much clearer. You could provide a copy to the Judges.

5 Does that mean that you don't have a document?

6 MR. HARMON: I don't at the moment,

7 Mr. President. I will have a witness.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Then I'm telling you straight

9 away that it's a pity, because today you have a

10 document presented to the Judges that you, on the basis

11 of your own sources, had another scheme to show the

12 Judges, that would be much easier, but I'm not

13 reproaching you, Mr. Harmon. It's not a reproach, but

14 that would have been simpler.

15 I would now like you to tell us, in summary

16 form, on which points you're contesting this scheme on

17 1st December, '92? Is it the mountain brigades, the

18 light brigades, Zenica, what is it?

19 MR. HARMON: I will identify them for Your

20 Honours, if you like, before I ask the witness the

21 questions.

22 Q. The 304th Mountain Brigade in Breza, that is,

23 item number 4, the 305th Mountain Brigade in Zenica

24 which is five from the bottom; the 27th Krajina Brigade

25 in Travnik, which is the last item; the 328th Brigade

Page 11805

1 ZM Zavidovici, then I'm contesting, Mr. President, the

2 schematic as it relates to the 303rd Light Brigade, the

3 323rd ZM in Kiseljak. On the right-hand side of the

4 schematic, Mr. President, I'm contesting the artillery

5 brigade, ZM Zenica. On the far right, on the top

6 layer, the mixed POAD ZM in Zenica. I want to ask him

7 a question to clarify the 7th Motorised Muslim Brigade

8 which is a little bit lower on the right. Those are

9 the items, Mr. President, that I would like to ask the

10 witness specific questions about.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, but be very specific

12 when you say you contest something, you must contest it

13 either with a document, a written order, or evidence of

14 any kind to indicate that you do not agree. Of course,

15 this is your absolute right. So let's proceed. Let's

16 begin.

17 MR. HARMON: All right.

18 Q. Now, I had asked you a question about the

19 304th Mountain Brigade in Breza. My question, sir, is

20 was that unit located in the area of responsibility of

21 1st Corps or 3rd Corps in December of 1992?

22 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, in order to

23 assist the Prosecution, the whole schematic of

24 organisation that I made is for the 1st of December,

25 1992, and it refers to the 3rd Corps. So all the units

Page 11806

1 that I have shown, except for those units that were

2 additional which are not here on the schematic, the

3 four other ones that I mentioned, but whatever is on

4 the schematic is under the responsibility of the 3rd

5 Corps.

6 Q. Now, let me direct your attention, sir, to

7 the 305th Mountain Brigade which you indicate had a

8 headquarters in Zenica. Now, are you aware that the

9 headquarters of that particular brigade were located in

10 Bijelo Selo which is near Kakanj?

11 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, the 305th

12 Brigade, it's a brigade from Jajce, which was formed

13 from the refugees from Jajce, and it had commanding

14 posts in Zenica, Kakanj, Travnik, and even in Bugojno.

15 It did not have a permanent commanding post. Once they

16 left here, I said they formed the brigade in Zenica.

17 That's how I put it here.

18 Q. My next question, Brigadier, is the last item

19 in that column, the 27th -- I'm sorry, the Krajina

20 Brigade ZM Travnik. Are you aware that that particular

21 unit was not formed until October of 1994?

22 A. Once the 1st and the 7th Krajina Brigade were

23 joined, it was formed somewhere at the beginning of the

24 summer. But up until then, it was called the Banja

25 Luka Brigade. As I listed all the brigades by the

Page 11807

1 number, I put the 27th Brigade, because previously it

2 was called the Banja Luka Brigade, and it was commanded

3 by Major Rasim Imamovic. While it was called the Banja

4 Luka Brigade, it was at Mehurici, and after that, the

5 command was in Travnik.

6 Q. Directing your attention to the 328th

7 Brigade, Mountain Brigade in Zavidovici, are you aware

8 that that brigade did not exist until 1995?

9 A. I know that it existed in this time period

10 that I have shown here.

11 Q. Let me turn your attention now to the column

12 on the left, light brigades, and direct your attention

13 first to the 303rd Light Brigade ZM in Zenica. Are you

14 aware that that particular light brigade did not exist

15 at all or are you thinking of another brigade by a

16 different number?

17 A. No, no, I think of the 303rd Brigade from

18 Zenica.

19 Q. Let me turn your attention to the light

20 brigade, the 323rd Light Brigade ZM Kiseljak. Was that

21 in the area of 3rd Corps responsibility on the 1st of

22 December or the area of 3rd Corps responsibility? I'm

23 sorry.

24 A. The 3rd Corps, yes.

25 Q. All right. Now, directing your attention to

Page 11808

1 the artillery brigade, very quickly, which you will see

2 on the schematic at this location. Do you see that,

3 Brigadier?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Is it your testimony that that artillery

6 brigade existed on the 1st of December, 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I have the same question in respect of the

9 mixed POAD ZM Zenica. Did that unit exist on the 1st

10 of December, 1992?

11 A. What do you think of? You mean the light

12 anti-artillery corps, yes, it was from Zenica.

13 Q. Did that exist on the 1st of December, 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. I'm satisfied with this line of

16 questioning, Mr. President. Let me either pursue

17 another line, or if the Court wishes to take a break?

18 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but before we take the

19 break, I would like to draw the attention of both

20 parties to what we've just seen here. Let us make a

21 small summary. For the time being, the Judges have got

22 a schematic which a priori is based only on the

23 personal memories and notes made by the witness and

24 maybe by informal sources that were not quoted here.

25 In any case, the Prosecution had no access to them.

Page 11809

1 On the other hand, we the Judges, we have a

2 document which has not been disputed which comes from

3 August 1992 and which gives the areas of

4 responsibilities. I'm not speaking about brigades.

5 I'm speaking about the geographical areas of

6 responsibility which is an official document. I would

7 like to invite the parties, if we take the decision

8 from August 1992 and the schematic presented by the

9 witness, which refers to the 1st of December, 1992, and

10 if you don't seem to agree on that and if it seems that

11 there are important differences, I would like to maybe

12 invite the Prosecutor to present either maybe by

13 writing memos or in writing in what way you contest the

14 document. Because, for the time being, we have a

15 witness who has a schematic and says there was a 3rd

16 army corps which was very structured, and on the other

17 hand, the Prosecution says we would like to dispute

18 that on such and such a ground.

19 Anyway, it is almost quarter past eleven, and

20 we are now going to have a 20-minute break.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.37 a.m.

23 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing

24 now. Please have the accused brought in.

25 (The accused entered court)

Page 11810

1 JUDGE JORDA: Let us proceed now.

2 Mr. Harmon, you are cross-examining Brigadier Zeko.


4 Q. Brigadier Zeko, in your testimony earlier,

5 you testified at great length and gave us a number of

6 statistics of the number of soldiers in each of those

7 particular units on Exhibit 4B. Do you remember that

8 testimony?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did you base your calculations on?

11 A. I based them on all the gathered information

12 and on the assessments.

13 Q. Did you base your information on enrolment

14 lists, captured enrolment lists, for example, of each

15 of those units?

16 A. No.

17 Q. On pay records for each of those units?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, when you testified about the numerical

20 strength of those units, and I have reviewed your

21 testimony, you did not tell us a date or an approximate

22 date when those units had those particular strengths.

23 Are you referring, in your testimony, to the numerical

24 strengths of those units on December 1st, 1992,

25 sometime in 1993, or sometime in 1994?

Page 11811

1 A. During the whole period of the war, these

2 strengths would vary. Depending whether there was a

3 general mobilisation, then the number would be even

4 larger than the one I gave. But after the

5 mobilisation, obviously there were some people who were

6 not capable to go, so they had to be excluded. So

7 there were people who would not be enrolled in the

8 units.

9 Q. So these numbers, essentially, commence on

10 the 1st of December and are the numbers that reflect

11 the strengths of the particular units on the 1st of

12 December?

13 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this is leading

14 the witness to give an erroneous answer. The witness

15 has just answered that he couldn't give a particular

16 date because the units would vary, the strength would

17 vary, and he is not able to say that, on a particular

18 day, the strength was of a particular number. So the

19 Prosecutor tries to tell him whether it was on the 1st

20 of December, and the witness has just answered that it

21 was a fluctuating number.

22 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I've taken note of that.

23 Mr. Harmon, would you like to answer or not?

24 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I won't answer

25 that. I'll go to another question.

Page 11812

1 Q. Are you able, Brigadier, to give us an

2 approximate number relating to each of these particular

3 units in the 3rd Corps on the 16th of April, 1993?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, these are estimates you have given us.

6 Can you tell us, please, what percentage of error you

7 include in your estimates?

8 A. Five to ten per cent.

9 Q. Now, let me ask you a question in respect of

10 the 312th Brigade that you estimated had a strength of

11 between 3.200 and 3.400 troops. Would it be consistent

12 with your estimate, Brigadier, that in April of 1993,

13 that particular unit had approximately 2.500 troops?

14 A. First of all, I have to have a look at my

15 notes to see whether the number is 3.300. The 17th

16 Krajina Brigade, two brigades were joined, the 1st and

17 the 7th, 3.300 soldiers.

18 Q. My question is, Brigadier, in April of 1993,

19 would it be reasonable, in your opinion, if I informed

20 you that that particular unit, the 312th Brigade, had

21 approximately 2.500 troops?

22 A. Between 2.200 and 2.300, I say roughly

23 speaking.

24 Q. Let me turn your attention to the 306th

25 Brigade where you testified that this particular

Page 11813

1 brigade had between 2.100 and 2.200 men.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you aware that in April of 1993, that

4 brigade had 1.320 men, approximately?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What do you have to say about that particular

7 figure? Do you think it's too low, based on your

8 estimate, or is it a reasonable figure, based on your

9 estimate, and the percentage of error that you have

10 told us are inherent in your figures?

11 A. Do you mean the number that you've just

12 quoted?

13 Q. Yes, sir.

14 A. Yes. My estimate, I think it's correct.

15 Q. You testified also that the 17th Krajina

16 Brigade had 3.300 men. Do you remember that testimony?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we're contesting

19 the numbers, and we'll be contesting the numbers that

20 have been given by this witness, so if I can quickly go

21 through a series of numbers with this witness, with the

22 Court's indulgence, we will be able to later --

23 JUDGE JORDA: If you are contesting the

24 numbers, this is a question of method, so we shall not

25 try and lose too much time. I think that you contest

Page 11814

1 it because you have a number of elements at your

2 disposal, and you have to indicate those elements. You

3 have to present us documents, and the Judges will then

4 make up their own minds once they see what the

5 arguments of both sides are and their documents.

6 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I intend to

7 present the documents at a later time, I don't have

8 them at my disposal at the moment, but I need to ask

9 this witness first, to lay the foundation for those

10 documents, whether the numbers that I'm going to be

11 quoting are numbers that he would agree with or does

12 not agree with --

13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but if you bring the

14 documents later on, that means that the Defence will

15 always have to call the witness. How do you intend to

16 proceed then? Otherwise, we'll have some

17 difficulties. Anyway, we are not going to solve the

18 question now, so please proceed.

19 Let me just confer with my colleagues.

20 Yes, please go on, Mr. Harmon.


22 Q. Brigadier, you testified that the 17th

23 Krajina Brigade had 3.300 men. My question to you is:

24 In April, were you aware that they had only 900 men?

25 A. In April when?

Page 11815

1 Q. April of 1993, sir.

2 A. I know what I said. I gave the estimates. I

3 was not claiming it was 3.300 men. I said it was

4 around 3.300 men, and I said the probability to make a

5 mistake is between five and ten per cent.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo?

7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I would like to

8 try and speed up our debate. On two or three

9 occasions, the witness said that he is still

10 maintaining the same figures with a five- or ten-per

11 cent margin. I think that there are enough arguments

12 for rebuttal, and I think that there's no point on

13 going from one brigade to another when he says that he

14 maintains these figures with a five- to ten-per cent

15 margin.

16 JUDGE JORDA: I grant this objection, but I

17 will still ask the same question to the witness.

18 Brigadier, do you maintain all your figures

19 with a five- to ten-per cent margin of error?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. President, Your

21 Honours.

22 JUDGE JORDA: In that case, Mr. Harmon, do

23 you think that these figures, with a five- to ten-per

24 cent error margin, for example, if there are really

25 3.300 soldiers in a particular brigade, which means

Page 11816

1 that, to the maximum, it could be reduced by ten per

2 cent, which means 330, 350 people, which will lower the

3 figure to 2.900. If you're speaking of 900 soldiers in

4 that particular brigade, are you basing it on a

5 particular document? If you haven't got such a

6 document, you will want to produce it later on -- if

7 you haven't got a document, I was going to say it's

8 your problem, but you claim -- just as well the witness

9 is claiming it now -- and then the Judges will take a

10 decision at an appropriate moment, or else maybe there

11 are other possibilities. I think that the Tribunal,

12 also the Trial Chamber, could receive written memos in

13 that case instead of bringing the witness. I don't

14 know.

15 Anyway, please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

16 MR. HARMON: I'll move to another topic,

17 Mr. President. This witness is standing by his

18 figures, and the Prosecutor, in rebuttal, will present

19 evidence to the contrary, and I think I can move on

20 then.

21 Q. Let me ask you, Brigadier: The units that

22 you testified about and gave us figures about in the

23 3rd Corps area of responsibility, can you tell me, in

24 April of 1993, were those units well-equipped or poorly

25 equipped?

Page 11817

1 A. My estimate is that they were well-equipped.

2 MR. HARMON: Could I please have,

3 Mr. Dubuisson, Exhibit 456/32, please? I'd like to

4 show the witness.

5 Q. Now, Brigadier Zeko, this is a special report

6 that was prepared by your commander, Colonel Blaskic,

7 on the 7th of May, 1993; is that correct?

8 A. As I can see here, it is.

9 Q. First of all, can you tell me, in respect of

10 this particular communication, what type of

11 communication this is, what form of communication this

12 is? Is this a fax? Was this something that was sent

13 by packet? Was this some other means of transmission

14 of this particular report, if you're able to tell us?

15 A. I can only say that this could have been sent

16 either by fax or by packet. I don't know whether it

17 was ever sent. This is the first time that I've seen

18 this document.

19 Q. This particular document was addressed to the

20 Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of the Croatian

21 community of Herceg-Bosna, the Head of the Defence

22 Department and the Chief of the Main Headquarters. Do

23 you see that in the addressee list?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If you turn to the last page of this

Page 11818

1 particular document, Brigadier, do you recognise the

2 signature of Colonel Blaskic on the last page?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, this was a defence military secret and

5 it was strictly confidential, as it appears on the

6 upper right-hand corner of this document; do you see

7 that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. These kind of strict military secrets were

10 sent in coded form, were they not?

11 A. They should have been sent in such a form or

12 by messenger.

13 Q. On the 7th of May, 1993, the pocket was

14 surrounded, wasn't it, by the Armija?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In your opinion, is it likely that this

17 particular report was sent by courier?

18 A. I cannot claim that. It could not have been

19 sent by courier if it was a pocket.

20 Q. Now, let me direct your attention, if I can,

21 please, to that portion of this special report that

22 deals with Muslim forces. Do you see that portion I'm

23 referring to? Since I can't read the language, I can

24 only direct you. It may be Muslimanske Snage, which

25 appears on the second page of the order in BCS.

Page 11819

1 Perhaps Mr. Nobilo can help me if I'm correct

2 in my language, Muslimanske Snage.

3 MR. NOBILO: Yes. You've already learned

4 Croatian. On the second page, it says Muslim forces,

5 their strength, their composition.

6 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much.

7 Q. Brigadier, do you see that section I'm

8 talking about?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you go to the second paragraph, please,

11 the second paragraph under Muslim forces, where it says

12 "Structure," and could you please tell us how Colonel

13 Blaskic characterised whether or not the Muslim forces

14 were well-equipped or how they were equipped?

15 A. What I can answer is that on the basis of the

16 information that was gathered, which we sent out --

17 Q. You didn't understand my question,

18 Brigadier. My question is: How did Colonel Blaskic,

19 on May the 7th, characterise the state of equipment

20 that was available to the Muslim forces?

21 A. Well, the situation as it was.

22 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the witness did

23 not see this document before, and he obviously does not

24 know what he has to read. What I propose is that

25 either my colleague read it or maybe I can read it out,

Page 11820

1 and after that, the comments should be made, because

2 obviously they cannot agree on what the witness has to

3 read.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Just a moment. I think

5 that the question was not very well put. I suppose,

6 Mr. Harmon, as this is a document signed by the accused

7 Colonel Blaskic at the time, the estimate of the

8 strength of the Muslim forces, you want the second

9 paragraph starting with "Muslim forces." Do you agree

10 with me that's the paragraph, which says "The

11 structures are" --

12 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE JORDA: In that case, I think it would

14 be much simpler to ask you to simply turn to the

15 witness and say: Under what Colonel Blaskic has

16 signed, it seems that the Muslim forces were relatively

17 poorly equipped.

18 As for Mr. Nobilo, I've noted your

19 observation, but I think that it is not too complex for

20 the witness to answer on that particular point. But in

21 case the witness needs a bit more time to read the

22 document, we will give it to him, but I think that for

23 the time being, it is not the case.

24 Now I'm going to ask the question. On page

25 2, starting with "Muslim forces," can you find it in

Page 11821

1 your document? I have got it in French. I've received

2 it from the registrar. When it says, "Mostly infantry

3 units were relatively poorly equipped."

4 Is this your question, Mr. Harmon?

5 MR. HARMON: It is, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE JORDA: What do you think of that,

7 Mr. Nobilo? Maybe you want to make another comment.

8 MR. NOBILO: Let me just add something to

9 it. I'm afraid of asking such questions to people who

10 have no experience in court because I insist that he

11 should read the complete sentence. If we simply say

12 that the units were poorly equipped, it is not enough.

13 The witness has to read the whole, the whole sentence

14 which gives the context.

15 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I agree. I did not want

16 to just leave out half of the sentence. I simply

17 wanted to point out the sentence, which is not a very

18 long one.

19 Please, Brigadier, read this sentence which,

20 in French, starts with "Structure:" In French, it's

21 exactly four lines, and once you have finish reading,

22 please tell us. I think that the interpreters do not

23 have the text. In that case, I will read it:

24 "Structure: Mostly infantry units, poorly equipped,

25 essentially without military uniforms, dressed in

Page 11822

1 civilian clothes only, the battalion commanders having

2 complete uniforms, which explains why civilians are

3 being killed. There are many," and so on. Everybody

4 has read it. What do you think of it? This is your

5 question, Mr. Harmon.

6 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, when you read

7 the whole sentence, then you see what the assertion is,

8 because I didn't make any assessment of the clothing

9 worn. I just said they were equipped. Here it says

10 with automatic weapons, snipers, and so on. So I stick

11 to my assertion that they were, after all,

12 well-equipped.


14 Q. All right. Let me ask you then, Brigadier:

15 What percentage of the men in the brigades, and you've

16 given us a large number of numbers, had arms available

17 to them, infantry arms available to them? Do you know?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, in respect of the Bosnian Serb army, was

20 the Armija better equipped than the Bosnian Serb army

21 or less well-equipped, in your assessment?

22 A. Less well-equipped. The army of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina was not equipped as well as the

24 Bosnian Serb army.

25 Q. Is it fair to say, Brigadier Zeko, that the

Page 11823

1 Armija in Central Bosnia and, in fact, throughout

2 Bosnia, had no direct resupply lines, except those

3 resupply lines that came through HVO-held territory?

4 A. Could you please repeat your question just

5 once again?

6 Q. Yes. In 1993, did the Armija forces in

7 Bosnia have any direct resupply lines, except through

8 the territory held by the HVO?

9 A. I don't know whether they had other supply

10 lines.

11 MR. HARMON: Now, could I have number 12

12 placed on the ELMO, please, Mr. Dubuisson, the small

13 item showing the Serb confrontation lines?

14 Q. Brigadier, can you see that on your monitor,

15 number 12?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Does number 12 show the confrontation lines

18 with the Serbs in the area of 3rd Corps?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, the Serbs, the Bosnian Serb army, was

21 one that was extremely aggressive, was it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In fact, the Bosnian Serb army had conquered

24 a fair amount of the territory in Bosnia in 1993?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11824

1 Q. They were, in fact, continuing to press their

2 operations in toward the area of 3rd Corps in 1993,

3 were they not?

4 A. At the beginning of the conflict between the

5 Croats, those battles ceased. There was just the

6 confrontation line between the Bosnian Serb army and

7 the BH army.

8 Q. In 1993, the Bosnian Serb army was continuing

9 its murderous siege on Sarajevo, were they not?

10 A. Yes. I'm speaking about the 3rd Corps forces

11 and the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia. I'm

12 referring to those units of the army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. I understand, Brigadier. I broadened my

15 question. At the same time in 1993, the Bosnian Serb

16 army was attacking the enclaves of Zepa, Gorazde,

17 Srebrenica, and other locations, posing a serious

18 threat to the Bosnian Muslim population; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You're aware, are you not, that in 1993,

22 prior to April, a large number of the soldiers that

23 were attached to the units which you have identified in

24 Defence Exhibit 4A showing these various brigades,

25 you're aware that a large number of those soldiers in

Page 11825

1 each of those units held positions at front-line

2 positions against the Serbs, did they not?

3 A. All those soldiers were not on the frontlines

4 against the Serbs.

5 Q. Can you please tell us, Brigadier, using

6 Exhibit 12, where the Bosnian Muslim forces were

7 deployed along that front-line?

8 A. They are shown on this map --

9 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, could the

10 question be specified with a date? When? What period

11 are we talking about when talking about the presence of

12 the BH army on the front-line against the Serbs, because

13 I think this is important.

14 MR. HARMON: Let me ask the question slightly

15 differently.

16 Q. Did the Bosnian Muslim forces along the

17 front-line against the Bosnian Serb forces abandon those

18 lines in April of 1993?

19 A. They did not abandon those lines, but they

20 just held the existing frontlines.

21 Q. Can you tell us, please, Brigadier, in 1993,

22 where the Bosnian Serbs attacked the front-line

23 positions held by the Muslims in the 3rd Corps area of

24 operation?

25 JUDGE JORDA: Will you indicate the period,

Page 11826

1 Mr. Harmon, please?

2 MR. HARMON: 1993, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but at what point in time

4 in 1993? Mr. Nobilo has just asked you that.

5 MR. HARMON: Between April and June of 1993

6 would be my first question, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

8 A. There were no offensive operations by the

9 Bosnian Serb army in that period. The frontlines were

10 stagnant at the time.


12 Q. So if I understand your testimony correctly,

13 the front-line position indicated on number 12, that's

14 in front of you, there was no Bosnian Serb activity

15 directed toward Muslim-held positions in the period of

16 time that I've just indicated?

17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, I don't understand

18 now. You're asking a question about April 1993, and

19 the map we have in front of us is dated May '92 to

20 April 1993. We have to be very precise. Either we're

21 referring to a map or we're not referring to a map.

22 That is what I don't understand.

23 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, can I --

24 JUDGE JORDA: You've asked a question about

25 April to June '93, and you're asking the witness to

Page 11827

1 answer with the help of a map which is dated for the

2 period of May 1993. So will you please be more

3 specific?

4 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I understood the

5 witness's testimony to say that these confrontation

6 lines did not move at all in 1993 and, therefore, these

7 confrontation lines are accurate representations of the

8 whole year of 1993.

9 JUDGE JORDA: Do you agree, Brigadier, with

10 this?

11 A. In the period indicated, that is, until April

12 1993 -- 4.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Continue, Mr. Harmon.


15 Q. In April of 1993 until the end of 1993,

16 Brigadier, did the front-line positions between the

17 Bosnian Serbs and the Bosnian Muslims move?

18 A. As far as I know, they did not.

19 Q. You are unable to tell us where, from April

20 of 1993 until the end of 1993, the units that you have

21 identified in 4A were deployed along those lines; is

22 that correct?

23 A. That depended on the decisions of the corps

24 commander. Parts of all units could have been engaged,

25 but according to certain logic, parts of the 312th and

Page 11828

1 the 306th may have been engaged with regard to the zone

2 of responsibility facing the 1st Corps area of

3 responsibility.

4 Q. Did I understand your testimony yesterday,

5 Brigadier, that 82.000 soldiers of the Armija came down

6 and confronted the 8.200 soldiers in the pockets of

7 Kiseljak pocket and the Busovaca-Vitez pocket?

8 A. I presented my assessment, that in the 3rd

9 Corps zone of responsibility, the 3rd Corps had at its

10 disposal this number of troops, and that the Operative

11 Zone of Central Bosnia had the number of troops I

12 indicated. They couldn't have all clashed at the same

13 time. These were units that were being used in this

14 area, and that was their numerical strength.

15 MR. HARMON: Could we go to number 10,

16 Mr. Dubuisson, of the small items?

17 Q. Do you have that in front of you, Brigadier?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On the 17th of April, your commander, Colonel

20 Blaskic, ordered that HVO forces attack Gomionica and

21 Svinjarevo on the morning of the 18th of April. My

22 question, sir, is: Does this particular exhibit,

23 Exhibit 10, show the deployment of the attacking HVO

24 forces against those particular objectives?

25 A. On this exhibit, what you are talking about,

Page 11829

1 that is not shown, nor am I aware of this command that

2 you're referring to.

3 Q. Would it surprise you to learn that Colonel

4 Blaskic ordered an attack on Gomionica on the 17th of

5 April, 1993?

6 A. I can't answer that question, really.

7 Q. You were the head of intelligence.

8 A. Yes, but I wasn't in a position to know

9 whether orders were written and where they were

10 written.

11 Q. I take it that you had no notes on that

12 particular order when you prepared this particular

13 exhibit?

14 A. No.

15 MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecutor's

16 Exhibit 457/22 -- 456/22. I'm sorry.

17 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President?

18 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo?

19 MR. NOBILO: I should like to draw attention

20 to a point. This witness testified to the positions of

21 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In the

22 examination-in-chief, this witness did not comment on

23 the orders of General Blaskic, which he was not

24 familiar with. But if we are limiting our questions to

25 the examination-in-chief, we have no objections, but I

Page 11830

1 think that this witness is not there to answer on the

2 activities of the HVO.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Please do not go outside

4 the examination-in-chief. This is in accordance with

5 the Rules. Ask your question, and then we will see

6 whether there is a reason to annul it.

7 MR. HARMON: My only question relates to this

8 particular exhibit that was tendered by the Defence

9 that talks about the deployment of the forces from May

10 through April of 1993. Unless I'm wrong,

11 Mr. President, there is no showing of the deployment of

12 the HVO forces at a time that is relevant for this

13 particular schematic.

14 JUDGE JORDA: May 1992 or May 1993? The

15 document is dated May 1992.

16 MR. HARMON: To April of 1993, according to

17 the document that I have, sir.

18 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, quite. What is your

19 question, so that we can see whether it fits within the

20 scope of the direct examination.


22 Q. Brigadier, do you see the order in front of

23 you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us, did you see that order at

Page 11831

1 the time you were preparing this particular exhibit?

2 A. No. No, I see it for the first time.

3 JUDGE JORDA: The witness has answered your

4 question.

5 MR. HARMON: Thank you. I have no additional

6 questions in respect of that exhibit.

7 Let me turn to number 12, again, if I could

8 have that placed on the ELMO, please? I'm sorry.

9 Could we have this particular map placed on the easel?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Regarding this map, it is

11 Exhibit 469.


13 Q. Brigadier, do you also have document 12 in

14 front of you, which is this small diagram?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Could the usher please furnish number 12 to

17 the witness? Brigadier, number 12 shows the locations

18 of two artillery positions where artillery could hit

19 the town of Zenica. Would you please approach the map

20 that is to your left, and would you please mark the

21 site of those particular artillery positions around the

22 Vlasic Plateau?

23 A. Yes. (Marks)

24 Q. Brigadier, would you kindly connect the

25 artillery positions, which you've marked, with this

Page 11832

1 location that is marked with a small red dot? Here's a

2 pen. Draw a straight line between those two points.

3 A. (Marks)

4 Q. Brigadier, are you able to give a grid

5 bearing on each of those lines?

6 A. What?

7 THE INTERPRETER: The witness hasn't heard.


9 Q. Are you able to give us a grid bearing on --

10 A. No, no. I can't tell you what the grid

11 reference points are. I've indicated the region of

12 Humandzica Voda (phoen) and the region of Mejokrnje

13 (phoen), the village of Zidzici (phoen). These were

14 155 calibre medium sized artillery pieces, and these

15 are also medium sized weapons, which could have been

16 positioned to the left or to the right, forward or

17 backwards, and the positions I have indicated in

18 Rakovica.

19 Q. What is the distance, if you're able to give

20 us a rough distance, between this location and Zenica?

21 MR. HAYMAN: For the record, could we have

22 the location specified? It's not clear in the record

23 which point Mr. Harmon is pointing to.

24 MR. HARMON: I'm pointing to the lowest of

25 the two lines connecting one artillery position to

Page 11833

1 Zenica.

2 Q. What is the approximate distance?

3 A. Roughly 23 or 24 kilometres.

4 Q. I'm writing "23 to 24 kilometres" there.

5 What is the approximate distance between the artillery

6 position in the middle of the diagram going down to the

7 Zenica location?

8 A. I said to the area of Zenica municipality. I

9 didn't say this particular spot. I said the

10 municipality of Zenica. That is one thing. The

11 distance is roughly 24 kilometres, 25, to the

12 municipality of Zenica.

13 Q. For the record, I've written "24 to 25

14 kilometres" to the municipality of Zenica on this

15 diagram.

16 Two last questions: What type of artillery

17 pieces, Brigadier, did the Serbs have at the location

18 which I am marking with the letter "A"?

19 A. 150.

20 Q. What type of artillery pieces did the Serbs

21 have at the location that --

22 A. In the region of Bijelo Buce, 155 millimetre

23 and 130 millimetre calibre. At this location, 155

24 millimetres.

25 Q. At either location "A" or location "B" in

Page 11834

1 April of 1993, did they have a 122-millimetre piece?

2 A. I do not have information that they had such

3 pieces of 122 millimetres at that time.

4 Q. Now, let me ask you on another topic,

5 Brigadier, how did the HVO, from April of 1993 until

6 the end of the conflict, resupply itself with arms and

7 ammunition?

8 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, objection. This

9 is outside of the scope of the examination-in-chief,

10 completely outside of it.

11 JUDGE JORDA: What were your intentions,

12 Mr. Harmon, because it seems that this does go outside

13 of the scope.

14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the witness has

15 testified that these two pockets were, essentially,

16 hermetically sealed, and I wish to contest that. He

17 has presented exhibits showing the Bosnian Muslim army

18 surrounding the pockets for a considerable period of

19 time.

20 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. All right. Continue with

21 your questions.


23 Q. My question, Brigadier, was, from April of

24 1993 until the end of the conflict, how did the HVO

25 resupply itself with ammunition?

Page 11835

1 A. Somewhere in midsummer or up until the

2 beginning of autumn, there were no supplies in 1993.

3 Towards the beginning of autumn, it was done by air, by

4 helicopters coming from Herzegovina. That is the way

5 the supplies were brought in.

6 Q. Where was the Central Bosnia main supply base

7 before April of 1993? Was it in Sebacic?

8 A. No. That was also at Grude, Posusje. Down

9 there was the main centre of supply for Central Bosnia.

10 Q. Did the HVO resupply itself by ground, on the

11 ground, over land, from its logistical base of support

12 in Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes, up until the beginning of the conflict.

14 Later on, the roads were cut off, and I don't think

15 there was any ground resupplying. I said at what time

16 we started resupplying by air.

17 Q. On the 26th of April, ammunition was in

18 critical supply -- I'm sorry. The HVO was in critical

19 need of ammunition in April of 1993 after the conflict

20 had started; isn't that right?

21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I am sorry to

22 have to interrupt, but we're really now going into the

23 details of what was the strength of ammunition on the

24 26th. I think this is completely outside of the scope

25 and, in such a way, we are losing time. Very soon, we

Page 11836

1 will call a witness who will speak about that, but if

2 we ask all the questions to every witness, we will lose

3 too much time. But we are going to call a witness that

4 will speak precisely about those things.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. We've accepted the first

6 question in as much as the witness gave us the position

7 about the pockets in which the HVO found itself

8 surrounded by the Bosnian army, but now I think that

9 this is going too far, so the objection is granted.

10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I ask some

11 questions in respect of the helicopter flights that the

12 witness has identified?

13 JUDGE JORDA: No, no. I think that this is

14 going to be tackled in a different form, because the

15 Defence just told us about that.

16 Have you finished, Mr. Harmon?

17 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President. I would now

18 like to now ask the witness some additional questions.

19 Q. Specifically, Brigadier, the HVO took over a

20 number of JNA barracks in 1992, did they not? For

21 example, let me give you some examples. Did the HVO

22 take over the barracks at Slimena, and you may have to

23 pardon my pronunciation, Slimena?

24 MR. NOBILO: Slimena.

25 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much.

Page 11837

1 A. What area are you speaking of and what date?

2 I do not understand.

3 Q. Are you familiar with a JNA barracks at

4 Slimena in Central Bosnia?

5 A. Slimena, no, it's not a barracks. That was a

6 warehouse of the Territorial Defence of the army of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. Okay. Did the HVO take over the JNA barracks

9 at Kaonik?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did the HVO take over the JNA barracks in

12 Busovaca known as the Draga barracks?

13 MR. NOBILO: The same objection. I'm sorry,

14 Mr. President, but we are going outside of the scope of

15 the examination-in-chief.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I've heard that, and I

17 knew you would be saying so. I wanted, simply, that

18 Mr. Harmon continues with his question. Just please

19 put a straight question, Mr. Harmon. Do you think that

20 you want to ask the witness whether these barracks were

21 taken over by the HVO, so ask your question, and the

22 witness will answer, but go straight into the question,

23 and then we will see whether we will accept your

24 question or not.


Page 11838

1 Q. Now, I'm going to identify for you,

2 Brigadier, some other locations that I think the JNA

3 took over, and I'd like you to just affirmatively say

4 yes or no and then I'm going to ask you some questions

5 about that. Did they take over the JNA barracks in

6 Kiseljak?

7 MR. HAYMAN: I think there was an error in

8 the question, Mr. President. The JNA didn't need to

9 take over the JNA barracks. The JNA had their own

10 barracks. I think counsel meant the HVO.

11 MR. HARMON: Well, I have been corrected.

12 Thank you, kindly.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, please don't answer

14 instead of the witness. Let us bring some order into

15 this.

16 Mr. Harmon, what is your aim now with these

17 questions? Are you trying to show that the HVO took

18 over some barracks? What do you want to prove by

19 that?

20 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, this witness

21 testified yesterday, first of all, about the seizure by

22 the Armija of various critical facilities in Central

23 Bosnia. Among those facilities were the facilities

24 that dealt with production of weapons. They also took

25 over additional facilities, which I'm trying to get

Page 11839

1 this witness to acknowledge they did before I can get

2 into a series of questions I'd like to ask him about

3 those take-overs. I don't intend to belabour the point,

4 but I need to establish, as a predicate, that the HVO

5 took over these facilities.

6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, and that is

7 precisely what I am claiming is outside of the scope of

8 the examination-in-chief. If my colleague had asked

9 questions about the manufacturing of weapons and the

10 factories that manufacture weapons, that would be all

11 right, but he's speaking of a different thing.

12 JUDGE JORDA: I don't agree. I said to

13 Mr. Harmon that his question was not direct enough. He

14 explained to us what he was trying to pursue, and I

15 think that this is completely consistent with the way

16 he is working, and I think that he, as a Prosecutor,

17 has the right to ask such a question. Let us now go

18 back to it.

19 Brigadier, have you understood? This is

20 precisely what you mentioned yesterday when you spoke

21 about the Bosnian army who wanted to get hold of some

22 strategic facilities for its supplying. But did the

23 HVO take over some of these facilities or not? Please

24 let's go straight to the point. "Yes" or "no," did the

25 HVO take over all these barracks?

Page 11840

1 Now, just give a list. Don't ask a series of

2 questions, just give a list, Mr. Harmon.


4 Q. The last location I was interested in asking

5 him about was the JNA military barracks at Stojkovici?

6 A. I do not know that barracks. I don't know.

7 Q. I will come back to that, because it may be a

8 question of my pronunciation. Let me ask you then,

9 Brigadier, at each of these locations that I have

10 identified, did the HVO seize equipment that had

11 belonged to the JNA?

12 A. These facilities were taken over at the time

13 when the HVO and the Armija were together, so they took

14 them over together at the same time.

15 Q. Did they --

16 A. But I cannot tell you about the equipment,

17 who took how much from those facilities.

18 Q. Now, yesterday you mentioned the TRZ facility

19 in Travnik. Could you tell the Court, with a little

20 more detail, what the TRZ facility was?

21 A. This was a technical maintenance institute

22 where complete maintenance was done for all the command

23 vehicles, all the signalling vehicles, and also for

24 some other equipment for signalling, radios, the 33 up

25 until the RU-515, 312, and the 12-K one and so on.

Page 11841

1 Mainly, it was the signalling equipment.

2 Q. It was communications equipment; correct?

3 A. Yes, for communications.

4 Q. Now, the HVO took that facility over, did

5 they not? The Armija did not assist in the take-over of

6 that facility, did they?

7 A. At the same time, they were together, the TO

8 and the HVO. They were together in the barracks for

9 awhile, too. The technical and maintenance institute,

10 the HVO never took over. The barracks and the

11 maintenance institute are two separate facilities.

12 Q. Did the HVO receive any of the communications

13 equipment from that particular facility?

14 A. As far as I know, no.

15 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, could I have the

16 following exhibit as the next Prosecution Exhibit in

17 order?

18 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

19 Exhibit 470 and 470A for the English translation.


21 Q. Brigadier, you have the document in front of

22 you. Would you turn to the Croatian version of that

23 document, and would you take a look at the signature on

24 the last page of that document? Do you recognise that

25 signature as belonging to Colonel Blaskic?

Page 11842

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, the date of this document is the 13th of

3 October, 1992, if you look in the upper left-hand

4 corner, and this document is directed to the commander

5 of the Travnik municipal headquarters; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to the

8 first paragraph of that. Could you read that to

9 yourself? I would like to ask you some questions about

10 that in just a moment. Read the first paragraph.

11 Have you had time to read that document,

12 Brigadier?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yesterday, you testified that the HVO did not

15 receive a single vehicle from the TRZ factory in

16 Travnik. Do you remember that testimony?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This particular document signed by Colonel

19 Blaskic was directed to the commander of the Travnik

20 municipal headquarters. Isn't that where you worked?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Let me ask you, this particular document, in

23 the first paragraph, cites two decrees which,

24 essentially, decree that all property of the former JNA

25 on the territory of Herceg-Bosna are transferred to

Page 11843

1 Herceg-Bosna, does it not?

2 A. Yes. We can see it in this document.

3 Q. In your opinion, was the TRZ factory that is

4 referred to in this document on the territory of

5 Herceg-Bosna?

6 A. I cannot give you a clear answer, whether it

7 was or it wasn't.

8 Q. In fact, Brigadier, all of the property that

9 was in that particular factory, the TRZ factory, as of

10 the 13th of April, 1992, was under the control of the

11 HVO?

12 A. On the 13th of April, 1992?

13 Q. I made a mistake, Brigadier. I meant the

14 13th of October.

15 A. No. I don't remember this document. I've

16 never seen this.

17 Q. Isn't this a document where Colonel Blaskic

18 reprimands the commander of the Travnik municipal

19 headquarters that materiel is being removed from HVO

20 units?

21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, again, I think

22 that this is a misleading question. The question was,

23 doesn't this document show that materiel is taken from

24 HVO units to the BH army, but once you have read the

25 whole document, the title says the relations towards

Page 11844

1 common property and property that was at TRZ --

2 JUDGE JORDA: You are going to speak about

3 this, Mr. Nobilo, during your re-examination.

4 Mr. Harmon, you can finish now on this

5 particular point. Have you done so?

6 MR. HARMON: Let me ask one final question.

7 Q. Brigadier, doesn't this document indicate

8 that this communications equipment and materiel was in

9 the possession of the HVO?

10 A. Out of the title, we can see that this was

11 joint property and equipment.

12 Q. So when you testified yesterday that the HVO

13 did not receive a single vehicle, you were mistaken; is

14 that correct?

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Brigadier, you can

17 elaborate your answer. You can say more than either

18 "yes" or "no." Maybe I did not hear you quite well.

19 Was your answer "no"? The question was whether you

20 made a mistake. You cannot, on the one hand, say that

21 you either agree or do not agree with the Prosecutor,

22 you have to give your answers, but if you say "no," you

23 have to say why not.

24 Mr. Harmon, I'm asking for your opinion.

25 This document shows that the HVO received the materiel

Page 11845

1 from the TRZ factory.

2 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Mr. President.

3 It also shows that some of that equipment was taken

4 from HVO members, and that is the gravamen of the

5 warning issued by Colonel Blaskic.

6 MR. HAYMAN: If we're going to argue,

7 Mr. President --

8 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment. I'm going to

9 pursue my question, because I cannot be satisfied with

10 this answer.

11 Mr. Harmon, what was your question to the

12 witness? You asked him whether he made a mistake

13 yesterday by saying the contrary.

14 MR. HARMON: That's what I asked him,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE JORDA: What is your answer, Brigadier?

17 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, the answer is

18 that the HVO did not receive any communications

19 equipment from the TRZ factory, because we can see in

20 this document that that was joint property, joint

21 equipment.

22 JUDGE JORDA: You have no other explanation

23 to give?

24 A. No, I don't, because I did not see any such

25 equipment in our units.

Page 11846

1 JUDGE JORDA: Because you did not personally

2 see it.

3 Now we have an objection by Mr. Hayman. Is

4 your objection still valid now at this point?

5 MR. HAYMAN: Simply to point out, my learned

6 friend has suggested that this document shows

7 appropriation of property by the HVO. The items listed

8 being complained were appropriated by the BH army,

9 whereas they should have been left under joint control

10 which, apparently, had been the agreement concerning

11 these materials. I simply wanted to make that

12 comment. Thank you.

13 JUDGE JORDA: I leave you the responsibility

14 to give your own assessment. Have you finished on this

15 particular point, Mr. Harmon? Have you got any other

16 questions for the witness within the

17 cross-examination?

18 MR. HARMON: I do, Mr. President, but I see

19 it's 1.00.

20 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, you're right. We are

21 going to have a recess now, and we will continue at

22 2.30.

23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.



Page 11847

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Please

3 have the accused brought in.

4 (The accused entered court)

5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?

6 MR. HARMON: Thank you. Good afternoon,

7 Mr. President, Your Honours, and Counsel.

8 Q. Brigadier Zeko, this morning when we were

9 using the particular map and you drew the artillery

10 positions, you drew a line from the respective

11 artillery positions at points "A" and "B" to a location

12 in Zenica. You testified in your examination when you

13 gave a distance, that the distance you gave was to the

14 Zenica municipality lines. Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please take the blue pen that's in

17 front of you to your right, and would you draw the

18 Zenica municipality lines, to the best of your ability,

19 where it intersects those two red lines?

20 A. The municipality of Zenica is a broad term.

21 It includes many villages around the town, the whole

22 territory of Zenica municipality. I said that the

23 range went as far as Zenica municipality. I didn't

24 mention the coordinates or the specific points you

25 asked for.

Page 11848

1 Q. I understand that. I understood your

2 testimony this morning, Brigadier, to be that the

3 distance that you gave was a distance not to the point

4 which is at the bottom of the diagram, "X," but

5 somewhere short of that point, that is, the

6 municipality lines in Zenica. Did I misunderstand your

7 testimony?

8 A. No, not the limits, but the territory of

9 Zenica municipality. If you want me to indicate

10 exactly the place in Zenica municipality, that is

11 something I ...

12 Q. I didn't get a complete answer, "something I"

13 and --

14 A. You told me the borders of Zenica

15 municipality. I told you the territory of Zenica

16 municipality, the area which may be halfway into the

17 municipality, a part of the municipality, certain

18 locations within the municipality. I did not mention

19 any specific coordinates as to the exact range.

20 MR. HARMON: I'll go to another area,

21 Mr. President. Could I have the assistance of the

22 usher, please? That would be the Prosecutor's next in

23 order.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 471, 471A for the

25 French version, and 471B for the English version.

Page 11849


2 Q. All right. First of all, let me direct your

3 attention, Brigadier Zeko, to the one-page document

4 that is in your language. Do you have that in front of

5 you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This appears to be an order from Colonel

8 Blaskic; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell the Judges what type of

11 communication this was? Was this via a fax or was this

12 via a packet or was this via some other kind of

13 communication?

14 A. It may have been by fax or ...

15 Q. Do you know where this document originated

16 from, which municipality?

17 A. No.

18 Q. This is marked "Defence Military Secret" in

19 the upper right-hand corner; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, would you turn to paragraph number 9?

22 Do you see your name in paragraph number 9?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you remember attending that particular

25 meeting that was held at U.N. headquarters in Vitez?

Page 11850

1 A. It is stated here at the U.N. base, not at

2 the U.N. command.

3 Q. Do you remember attending that meeting?

4 A. I cannot remember, but probably I did.

5 MR. HARMON: Could I have the assistance of

6 the usher in marking the next exhibit, please?

7 Mr. President, this comes in French

8 translation, with an English translation as well.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 472, 472A for the

10 French version, 472B for the English version.


12 Q. Brigadier, do you have a copy in your own

13 language in front of you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This is a report that was issued on the 30th

16 of January, 1993 at 2015 hours, and it was addressed to

17 Colonel Blaskic in Kiseljak; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This is marked "Defence Military Secret

20 Strictly Confidential" on the right-hand side; do you

21 see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell the Judges what type of

24 communication this was? Was this by a fax? Was this

25 by another system of communication, or are you able to

Page 11851

1 tell?

2 A. No. It could have been any type of

3 communication, by fax or something else, but what it

4 was exactly, I can't tell you because I don't know.

5 Q. Now, in January 1993, there was fighting in

6 Busovaca, was there not?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. This message was sent from the Vitez forward

9 command post to Kiseljak; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. First of all, where was the Vitez forward

12 command post?

13 A. In the Vitez Hotel.

14 Q. In your opinion, Brigadier, this defence

15 military secret that was strictly confidential, was

16 this encrypted when it was sent?

17 A. Not necessarily. It need not necessarily

18 have been encrypted.

19 Q. So there were some times when you didn't

20 encrypt military secrets that passed through hostile

21 territory; is that your testimony?

22 A. No, because this document, I didn't send it,

23 nor can I claim what method was used in sending the

24 document, how it was sent.

25 Q. Having seen this document, do you remember

Page 11852

1 the document? Do you remember the meeting at all?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Let me ask you one question in respect of

4 this particular document. Do you recognise the

5 signature at the bottom of the document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Whose signature is that?

8 A. The chief of staff of the headquarters,

9 Franjo Nakic.

10 Q. That particular meeting, as you recall, dealt

11 with the events that were occurring in and around

12 Busovaca, did it not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The people who attended that meeting are

15 identified on the first page of that document. They

16 include Mr. Stewart, Mr. Flemming, and other

17 representatives described on the first page?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Please, Mr. Harmon, can we

20 speed up a little bit with your questions?

21 MR. HARMON: Yes. I'm finished with this.

22 JUDGE JORDA: There's no point in asking the

23 witness whether the names of the participants are

24 indicated. We can all see that. Please proceed to the

25 question that you're targeting.

Page 11853

1 MR. HARMON: I've concluded with that

2 particular document, Mr. President.

3 MR. HAYMAN: While counsel is finding his

4 next document, Mr. President, I would just like to put

5 on the record the position of the Defence, that this is

6 a document, Exhibit 472, we've never been given before,

7 and it is exculpatory in two respects. One, in it, the

8 chief of staff of the HVO is recommending that the HVO

9 urgently seek a cease-fire, even though, in the prior

10 six days, the HVO had lost a very large and strategic

11 swath of territory.

12 Secondly, this document indicates that

13 Colonel Blaskic was not at these negotiations because

14 he was cut-off in the Kiseljak enclave, as the Defence

15 has been suggesting to this Court for some time. Thank

16 you.

17 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm more than

18 happy to address the issue of whether this document is

19 exculpatory. I would rather do that at a later time,

20 rather than take up the time of the Court. I will

21 prepare and proceed with my next exhibit, if I can,

22 Mr. President.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Continue. Mr. Hayman's

24 observations have been entered in the transcript.


Page 11854

1 Q. I would like now, Brigadier, to go over some

2 of the exhibits that you identified yesterday, Defence

3 Exhibits, and I would like to start with Exhibit 185.

4 I'd like to direct your attention, please, to

5 the first paragraph with the number 1 in front of it

6 and recall your testimony from yesterday, Brigadier.

7 Brigadier, yesterday you testified that this

8 particular document was, and I quote -- I'm sorry. You

9 characterised this particular document, and I don't

10 have a page reference, that the army of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, which, at that time, was the Territorial

12 Defence, was to continue collecting information about

13 the HVO which has already called aggressors and to

14 commit their units to reinforce action.

15 My question to you, based on the English

16 translation that I have received from the Defence,

17 refers to the units of the HVO, in the first paragraph,

18 and activities of the aggressor. It seems to make a

19 separation between the aggressor and units of the HVO.

20 Do you see that in your document at the end of

21 paragraph 1?

22 A. I see it, but the HVO is being placed

23 together with the aggressor, because information is

24 being collected about both.

25 Q. I see. I just wanted to clarify that point.

Page 11855

1 The aggressor in 185 refers to the Serbs, not to the

2 HVO; is that correct?

3 A. I said exactly as it says: "Collecting

4 information about the activities of the aggressor and

5 the activities of the HVO," which means both, and it

6 means placing them on a footing of equality.

7 Q. That's not exactly how you testified

8 yesterday.

9 MR. HARMON: Now let me turn, if I could, to

10 186. Mr. Dubuisson, if you could make that exhibit

11 available to the Brigadier, I'd appreciate it.

12 Q. Brigadier, would you tell me, please, what,

13 in your opinion, this particular document represents?

14 A. It represents a memo of one of the

15 commanders, in this case, Enes Varupa.

16 Q. In what time period does this document

17 relate?

18 A. The first date that appears is the 17th of

19 February, 1992 until it reached me, until the document

20 was received.

21 Q. There's also another date on this document of

22 April 11th, 1992, is there not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, to put this into context, in April of

25 1992, could you tell me what the Bosnian Serbs were

Page 11856

1 doing in respect of attacks on the Busovaca, Vitez, and

2 Kiseljak municipalities?

3 A. In that time period, mostly artillery actions

4 were engaged in and air raids, air attacks.

5 Q. They were waging war against the Bosnian

6 Croats and the Bosnian Muslims in Central Bosnia,

7 weren't they?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. It was imperative, was it not, that both the

10 Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims organise

11 themselves to resist the aggressor?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, yesterday you testified about page 5 of

14 that document. I'm sorry, Brigadier. I don't have a

15 document that is paginated, but I can tell you the page

16 I'm referring to is the page that starts with

17 "Preocica," and it then lists a series of numbers next

18 to the various locales, Bukve, Bila Ceta, Kruscica.

19 Do you see what counsel, yesterday, referred

20 to as page 5?

21 JUDGE JORDA: Is it the list ending with

22 "Sivrino Selo"? Perhaps we could put it on the ELMO.

23 MR. HARMON: That might be helpful.

24 JUDGE JORDA: It would be clearer. We must

25 bear in mind that the hearings are being held in

Page 11857

1 public.

2 Thank you, Mr. Hayman.


4 Q. Now, this particular page, you testified

5 yesterday, was the number of soldiers that were located

6 in these particular locations. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, I would like to turn your attention to

9 one of the pages that was not translated, nor presented

10 to the Court, and it is the page, Brigadier, that has

11 the caption of "Bukve" on the top.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Two pages later, I think. Am I

13 right? After the one we've seen, there are two more,

14 and then we come to this one; is that right? No, one

15 more, actually. Am I right, Mr. Harmon?

16 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, this was not

17 given to me in any particular order, so I'm having some

18 difficulty in organising this. I can only identify by

19 the name at the top of the page which page I'm

20 referring to.

21 JUDGE JORDA: I see. Mr. Hayman is coming to

22 the help of the Prosecution, the page beginning with

23 "Bukve" and ending with "Veceriska"; is that the one?

24 MR. HARMON: Yes.

25 Q. Brigadier, does this particular page identify

Page 11858

1 the type of weapons and equipment that are available in

2 Bukve?

3 A. This is just a part of the vehicles and means

4 available.

5 Q. Is there another part of this document that

6 describes other weapons and other vehicles that are

7 available in Bukve?

8 A. I do not have any other part of the document.

9 Q. Fine. Then I'm limiting my questions to this

10 particular page, Brigadier. Would you please read the

11 kind of weapons that are available in Bukve?

12 A. Two semi-automatic rifles; 18 or 12, it's

13 hard to read, shotguns; 14 pistols, 15, whether this is

14 autos or automatic rifles, I don't know. Then, one

15 freight vehicle, two tam trucks, five tractors, two

16 carts, five horses and motorcycles.

17 Q. Let me turn your attention then to Sadovace,

18 the page that lists the equipment available in

19 Sadovace?

20 A. Sadovace?

21 Q. Please tell the Court what kind of weapons

22 and equipment are available in Sadovace, according to

23 this particular document that has been entered into

24 evidence?

25 A. Yes. According to this document, there were

Page 11859

1 eight pistols, three hunting rifles, a radio

2 transmitter, RM without the number being indicated, six

3 automobiles, and one semi-automatic rifle, passenger

4 vehicles, 15; freight vehicle, one; tractors, four;

5 carts, two; and motorcycles, one.

6 Q. Now, again, the village of Gacice appears on

7 the top of one of these pages from this diary. Tell

8 the Court what kind of weapons were available in Gacice

9 and what kind of equipment was available in Gacice?

10 A. I'll read from the document. One machine

11 gun, RSRM, which means a radio transmitter, an

12 automatic pistol, one; three semi-automatic rifles, six

13 carbines, eight hunting rifles, ten pistols. Those are

14 the weapons. Among the vehicles, there are three

15 tractors, six horses with three carts, and then

16 automobiles.

17 Q. Do you see the page that says "Divjak"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Describe the equipment that was available in

20 Divjak, please?

21 A. I just have a list here of the villages,

22 Muratovici, Bukve, Sadovace, Bila, Grbavica. Perhaps I

23 haven't got the right page. There's no list of

24 equipment here at Divjak.

25 Q. On my page, Brigadier, it appears next to

Page 11860

1 "Donje Veceriska" as well?

2 A. Yes, I've found it. Divjak: 34 men, two

3 automatic rifles with a radio transmitter, four hunting

4 rifles, eight pistols, ten automobiles, one tam, five

5 freight vehicles, one tractor, a motorcycle, and a

6 cart.

7 Q. Lastly, Brigadier, could you read the

8 equipment that was available in Donje Veceriska?

9 A. Donje Veceriska: A platoon of 40 men, two

10 automatic rifles, one machine gun, one carbine, ten

11 pistols, ten passenger cars, one FAP, six tractors, one

12 or two carts, and a motorcycle. That's all. And

13 ammunition, which the quantity is not indicated.

14 Q. In April of 1992, Brigadier, in the face of

15 serious Bosnian Serb aggression, was this equipment

16 unreasonable to possess by the villagers of those

17 villages that you have just identified?

18 A. These places here, all these locations that

19 were indicated here were not interconnected, and they

20 were not near the position of the army of Bosnian

21 Serbs.

22 Q. So are you saying, Brigadier, that if you

23 weren't near the confrontation lines of the Bosnian

24 Serbs, then you shouldn't have armed yourself in the

25 face of what was happening to Sarajevo, what was

Page 11861

1 happening to the enclaves, what had happened at

2 Vukovar, that it was not appropriate to arm yourselves?

3 A. No, no. That is not what I mean. But they

4 were arming themselves just as much as they could,

5 depending on their possibilities.

6 Q. In April of 1992, against whom were they

7 arming themselves?

8 A. Against the aggressor.

9 Q. Who was the aggressor?

10 A. The common aggressor was the army of Bosnian

11 Serbs.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could turn to

13 Exhibit 187, this is a document, Brigadier, that has

14 been entered into evidence, and you have identified the

15 person who sent this document as Zeljko Katava. Let me

16 ask you some questions about this particular document.

17 This document was sent on the 6th of January, 1993 from

18 Busovaca, and it was a defence military secret marked

19 confidential; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE JORDA: Well, the answer is really

22 obvious. Please speed up, Mr. Harmon.


24 Q. To whom was this document sent?

25 A. From the heading, we can see that it was sent

Page 11862

1 to the command, ZSV, Central Bosnia, to the head of the

2 Military Intelligence Department.

3 Q. Who requested that this particular

4 document -- who ordered that this particular evaluation

5 be made?

6 A. Here, the request was made by the command.

7 Q. Is this a request that was made by Colonel

8 Blaskic?

9 A. I don't remember whether it was made by

10 Colonel Blaskic or by the head of the chief of staff.

11 Q. Yesterday, you characterised this particular

12 document as representing the intentions, and I'm

13 quoting, "the intentions of the Bosnian army." Do you

14 remember that testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Which intentions does this document reflect?

17 A. The intentions which came through later on.

18 We can see it in the document. This is a document that

19 I had received, and it was used, the evaluation, as the

20 estimate for the whole Operative Zone.

21 Q. Now, this document was prepared about two and

22 a half weeks before the conflict in Busovaca between

23 the HVO and the Armija; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you tell us earlier today that before

Page 11863

1 offensive operations were prepared, intelligence

2 assessments were made of objectives of the HVO?

3 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the witness has

4 said just the contrary. Counsel for the Prosecution is

5 trying to put words in the witness's mouth which he did

6 not say. He answered this question that he had

7 forwarded routine reports to the commander, regardless

8 of the fact whether the commander planned any combat

9 activities or not. This question was asked several

10 times, and the answer was always the same. Now, in his

11 question, the Prosecutor is saying to the witness that

12 he had stated that he gathered this information, which

13 was not said by the witness.

14 JUDGE JORDA: Please reformulate your

15 question, Mr. Harmon.


17 Q. In the HVO, Brigadier, before an attack was

18 made by forces of the HVO, was there an assessment made

19 of the objective of the attack, specifically,

20 identifying the forces, their locations, their

21 strengths, the type of weapons that they had?

22 A. The HVO had mounted defensive operational

23 combat activities, and for that kind of combat

24 activities, assessments were also made, which is

25 normal.

Page 11864

1 Q. Not only defensive, but offensive.

2 JUDGE JORDA: He told you defensive, Mr.

3 Harmon. Don't try to make the witness say what he did

4 not say, otherwise ask your question a different way.

5 MR. HARMON: His answer, according to my

6 translation, has the word "also made," implying they

7 were made for defensive purposes, as well as offensive

8 purposes. That's why I tried to clarify that point.

9 Q. So, let me, just to clarify that point,

10 Brigadier, you said these kind of assessments were made

11 for defensive operations; were these kind of

12 intelligence assessments made by the HVO for offensive

13 operations?

14 A. I said for defensive operations.

15 Q. Does that mean that these kind of assessments

16 were not made for offensive operations?

17 A. HVO had defensive operations in the

18 Operational Zone of Central Bosnia.

19 Q. Would you answer my question, Brigadier?

20 Were these kind of intelligence assessments made for

21 offensive operations by the HVO?

22 JUDGE JORDA: He answered your question, Mr.

23 Harmon. He does not want to say that there were

24 offensive operations. This answer certainly is not

25 convenient for you, but we cannot do anything, because

Page 11865

1 he doesn't want to say that there were any offensive

2 actions. You can't go any further than that.

3 If you want to show that there were offensive

4 operations, in that case, you will do it in the manner

5 that will be appropriate. But now we have to remain

6 more into our subject, and I will turn now to the

7 witness, and I will ask the witness to answer in a more

8 precise way to the questions.

9 Mr. Harmon, ask very precise questions and

10 then the witness will answer very precisely and the

11 Judges will not have to intervene.

12 Q. Brigadier, on September the 8th, 1993 did the

13 HVO conduct an offensive operation at Stari Bila, at

14 the hill at Grbavica?

15 A. Yes, that action was carried out with the

16 purpose of stopping further advancements towards SPS.

17 Q. Did you prepare intelligence assessment

18 before that operation was conducted?

19 A. That assessment had already existed from

20 before. It was known how much personnel and holdings

21 existed in that area.

22 Q. Let me ask you to look at this particular

23 document and turn to the 4th paragraph in this

24 document, please.

25 Do you see in the middle of that particular

Page 11866

1 paragraph the sentence that reads, quote, "Until now

2 they have been dispatching 160 soldiers to the

3 battlefields in Visoko Turbe"?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Visoko and Turbe were front-line positions

6 against the Bosnian and Serb aggressors; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let me direct your attention to the line that

9 reads as follows: "We have unconfirmed information

10 that they suffer from a deficit of ammunition and

11 shells for artillery pieces."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, let me direct your attention further to

14 a line to where it says, "Nowadays they are dispatching

15 soldiers to the Maglaj battlefield, about 160 of them."

16 That is, that appears, Brigadier, underneath the

17 previous sentence I read about Visoko and Turbe.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was fighting at Maglaj battlefield?

20 A. Both the HVO and the army.

21 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to a

22 sentence on the English version that reads as

23 follows: "So far Muslim forces have not undertaken any

24 concrete action except patrolling their sectors."

25 MR. HAYMAN: It might go faster if we tell

Page 11867

1 the witness where in this 3-page document that sentence

2 can be found, Mr. President.

3 MR. HARMON: I agree, but I can't read the

4 language, and I'm trying to --

5 Q. It's toward the end, Brigadier, in my English

6 translation.

7 JUDGE JORDA: In the English version it is on

8 the top of page 3. Is that it, Mr. Harmon?

9 MR. HARMON: That's correct.

10 A. In my text it says, "According to unverified

11 information they received, in part, Howitzers, then 128

12 millimetres, and according to unverified information

13 they do not have enough ammunition for artillery." Is

14 that it?


16 Q. No, two paragraphs down, Brigadier.

17 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm prepared to

18 let the document speak for itself.

19 JUDGE JORDA: I think this is very easy.

20 It's very easy for the witness. It's about the last

21 third of the document underneath the name Miro Zermin.

22 I cannot read this in your language, but underneath

23 Miro Zermin, this name, but this is in English. So far

24 and so on. So, if I can find it, I think it can

25 certainly be found by the person who reads the

Page 11868

1 language. Brigadier, please.

2 A. If I found it --

3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, it's "So far," yes.

4 A. Thank you, Mr. President. "So far Muslim

5 forces have not, except by patrolling in their sector,

6 undertaken anything more concrete."

7 JUDGE JORDA: Your question, Mr. Harmon?


9 Q. So this is a document, in your opinion, that

10 shows the aggressive intentions of the Bosnian Muslims

11 on January the 6th in Busovaca. That's your assessment

12 of it?

13 A. This is the evaluation of the assistant of

14 the chief of the intelligence, military intelligence

15 department in Busovaca, which I have received.

16 MR. HARMON: Now, could I turn to document

17 190, please?

18 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to a

19 portion that is three paragraphs, two paragraphs from

20 the bottom of this document. Two paragraphs from the

21 end of this document. It starts with the word

22 "Observing and analysing the activities."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. What territory do you mean? What area?

25 First page?

Page 11869

1 Q. The last two paragraphs from the end of this

2 document. There is the signature line, two paragraphs

3 from the end.

4 A. "Observing and analysing the activities

5 undertaken up to now."

6 Q. Yes. Yesterday you testified that the

7 Muslims were utilising the tactics of the aggressor,

8 that's what this particular report says. And those

9 tactics consisted of four elements; the capture of

10 territory; the regulation of positions; the moving out

11 of the Croat inhabitants; and taking full control.

12 Do you see that, in that particular report?

13 A. Yes. If I read this well, "Observing and

14 analysing the activities that were undertaken up to

15 now, the potential aggressor --"

16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Brigadier, we have seen

17 it. Ask your question.


19 Q. The question I have --

20 A. They are changing, they are applying the

21 tactics. I did not say that they had applied the

22 tactics, I said they are applying.

23 Q. Let me ask you, when you say regulate

24 positions; what does that mean?

25 A. How do you mean? I don't know in which, what

Page 11870

1 is the meaning of this word that was put in here? So,

2 I cannot explain. I need the context.

3 Q. The context is the report that you wrote.

4 A. Yes. But what text? In order to find the

5 sentence that I can fully read it, and only then I can

6 give it to you.

7 Q. The second sentence in that paragraph that

8 reads as follows: "He is occupying the territory part

9 by part then regularising the situation in these areas,

10 displacing the Croatian population and taking full

11 control."

12 That's the English translation of that

13 document that has been provided to me. Do you see that

14 sentence, Brigadier?

15 A. Yes, I see it. But in my text I will read

16 the whole sentence: "With this activity they are

17 taking part after part of that territory, and after

18 that they regulate the positions, they move out the

19 Croatian population and take complete control of" this

20 is regulating the positions.

21 Q. My question is; what does regulating the

22 positions mean?

23 A. That's the regulation by engineers around the

24 territories. It means fortifying, digging trenches,

25 organising the whole firing system on those positions.

Page 11871

1 Q. Now, those tactics were tactics that were

2 used by the army of the Republika Srpska, the

3 aggressor?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In Ahmici on the 16th of April, did the HVO

6 capture the village of Ahmici?

7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this is outside

8 of the scope of the case in chief.

9 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I agree. Please

10 reformulate your question, or otherwise change your

11 question, Mr. Harmon.

12 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I have a copy of

13 the transcript in which this witness testified

14 precisely to what I'm asking him. It is clearly within

15 the confines of the examination. He has testified and

16 he has -- I do not have a page quote.

17 JUDGE JORDA: Would you make your question

18 more precise? How come that from a question you're

19 asking where you're simply asking what regulating the

20 position means; and then you start from a very far away

21 question, and that is the problem of such type of

22 questions. We never know where you want to get with

23 those questions.

24 I'm saying to you today, and tomorrow I will

25 say to the Defence; how do you want to get to Ahmici?

Page 11872

1 What is your real purpose? What do you want to ask the

2 witness? Just ask this question very directly.

3 Your preceding question was: What does it

4 mean to regulate the position? So, what is your next

5 question, please?

6 MR. HARMON: My next question, Mr. President,

7 is this:

8 Q. Brigadier, were these very same tactics used

9 in the village of Ahmici by the HVO on the 16th of

10 April?

11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that is what I have

12 understood, and unfortunately you did not need to ask

13 this question for the moment. Please ask a different

14 question.

15 You cannot ask this witness what were the

16 tactics used by the HVO. The whole Blaskic case is

17 turning around this question, mostly; so, we cannot now

18 try, in explicit terms, regulating the position, so I

19 cannot accept this question.

20 Ask another question. Please speed up. You

21 cannot isolate sentences from the document just like

22 that. Otherwise, you have a specific plan, Mr. Harmon,

23 but continue with your plan; but please be more direct

24 in your questions.

25 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'll move on, I

Page 11873

1 can't be any more direct than I was, but the Court --

2 I will move to a different question.

3 If I can have 192, please, placed before the

4 witness.

5 Q. Brigadier, do you recognise this document?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. And this document was issued six days before

8 the attack on Ahmici, and it is a report from the Vitez

9 brigade command. To whom was it sent?

10 A. It was sent to the commander of the Vitez

11 brigade.

12 Q. And this particular document, in the second,

13 sorry, the third paragraph, indicates that the soldiers

14 from the 325th Mountain Brigade were being sent to the

15 Serb frontlines at Visoko and Turbe.

16 A. May I read the sentence? "In the area of

17 Vitez municipality, the 325th Mountain Brigade was

18 formed whose members were going through practical

19 military training at the battlefield in Visoko and

20 Turbe, where a part of the manpower is being engaged."

21 Q. This is a document that Colonel Blaskic was

22 aware of, because yesterday you testified he received a

23 copy of this document.

24 A. It may have been a misinterpretation. I

25 didn't say that he got a copy, but I said that my

Page 11874

1 department made an overall estimate, and he received

2 the parts of reports which contained a part of this

3 assessment.

4 Q. So, Colonel Blaskic was aware that ABiH units

5 were sending their members to and rotating their

6 members to and from the front-line positions against the

7 Bosnian Serbs?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. HARMON: Can we go to document 193,

10 please?

11 Q. I have one question for you, Brigadier, in

12 respect to this document.

13 The date indicates the 14th of March 1993,

14 and yesterday you corrected this to be the 14th of

15 April. There appears to be some hand-written correction

16 done by some unknown party in that document.

17 How do you know this document was issued on

18 the 14th of April, as opposed to the 14th of March,

19 1993? What's your basis for stating that?

20 A. The contents of the document, and because

21 this was typewritten, and then we see that the number 3

22 has been crossed out with a typewriter and changed to

23 4.

24 Q. What is the content of the document that

25 makes you believe this document was issued on the 14th

Page 11875

1 of April as opposed to the 14th of March? What's the

2 context of it?

3 A. It's a regular report about development in

4 the zone of responsibility, zone of intelligence

5 responsibility of this brigade.

6 Q. Is there anything else in this document, the

7 content of this document, Brigadier, that you can

8 assist me and assist the Court in understanding why you

9 have concluded this document was issued on the 14th of

10 April as opposed to the 14th of March? Can you be more

11 precise?

12 A. The text says, and the date is what it is,

13 unless you want me to read the text.

14 JUDGE JORDA: You're not answering the

15 question, Brigadier. You, yourself, said that the 14th

16 of April, that you deduced that from the context; and

17 the Prosecutor is asking you about that context on the

18 basis of which you conclude that it is April. So, I'm

19 taking you back to your own logic; agreed?

20 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, I didn't quite

21 understand the question. What is the question now

22 regarding what I said?

23 JUDGE JORDA: Listen. I'm going to try and

24 summarise. This afternoon seems to be rather

25 complicated for everyone, perhaps because of the fine

Page 11876

1 weather in The Hague, but it's very simple. The

2 Prosecutor is asking you about the date.

3 You, yourself, said it was the 14th of April,

4 not the 14th of March. He asked you why, and you

5 answered, among other things, that you are concluding

6 that it is the 14th of April from the content of the

7 document.

8 And he is asking you what is the content,

9 what is it that makes you say in view of the whole text

10 that it was the 14th of April and not the 14th of

11 March? So, please answer this question.

12 A. Yes, it is the 14th of April on the basis of

13 data that was collected at the time by the assistant in

14 the brigade, in the Busovaca brigade, and which he sent

15 to his commander and to me as the chief of the

16 department for the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia.

17 JUDGE JORDA: I think you haven't answered

18 the question. It is not up to me to ask you questions,

19 it is up to the Prosecutor.

20 Please go on to your next question, Mr.

21 Harmon.

22 MR. HARMON: If I could have document 194

23 placed in front of Brigadier Zeko, please.

24 Q. Brigadier, I would like to direct your

25 attention to this particular document, paragraph number

Page 11877

1 4, it appears on the first page, and I would like to

2 direct your attention, please, to the second line about

3 which you testified yesterday.

4 You see the second line, the date of that

5 particular order, 02-33-867? What's the date on that

6 second line in paragraph 4?

7 A. As far as I can see on this document, the

8 date is the 15th.

9 MR. HARMON: May I approach the easel,

10 Mr. President?


12 We are having a lot of discussion over dates

13 and I'm rather like the Brigadier. My impression is

14 that in the Serbo Croat version it is the 15th of

15 April, Mr. Harmon.

16 I don't know whether that's very important

17 for you, but it is my impression that it is the 15th of

18 April.


20 Q. Is it your conclusion from this document

21 Brigadier Zeko -- what is your conclusion from this

22 document, there is the date of the 15th of April, 1993?

23 What's your conclusion? What is your conclusion from

24 this particular date of the 15th of -- try again.

25 Can you hear me, Brigadier Zeko?

Page 11878

1 A. I can hardly hear you. No. Yes, yes, yes,

2 I've got it now.

3 Q. What is your conclusion from the date that

4 appears in paragraph 4, being the 15th of April, 1993.

5 What's the significance of that date to you?

6 A. The date that the order was issued, means the

7 preparations of the corps, instructions given to this

8 brigade.

9 Q. What instructions were given on the 15th of

10 April?

11 A. I could read the order to you.

12 Q. Please, you don't have to read the order to

13 me. Yesterday you testified that the date of the 15th

14 of April 1993, on this document, was significant. And

15 my question to you is very simple.

16 What is the significance of that date, the

17 15th of April, appearing on that particular document?

18 A. Preparations for the execution of combat

19 operations on the part of the army of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina and giving instructions to this

21 particular brigade, the 303rd. No, the 333rd.

22 Q. Now, let me invite your attention and the

23 Court's attention, please, to certain features on this

24 document. And Brigadier, I'm going to ask you to look

25 at this document very carefully for me.

Page 11879

1 I'm going to specifically ask you to look at

2 the characters that appear on this document. And you

3 see this orange line that I've drawn right here? This

4 orange line represents the bottom line underneath each

5 sentence, it's not visible, but there is a certain

6 horizontal plane. And let me direct your attention,

7 please, to certain numbers that appear on this

8 document.

9 If you go down three sentences below the date

10 we've been talking about, in the middle of the page

11 you'll see the numbers "587." Do you see these

12 particular numbers?

13 A. 587, yes, yes.

14 JUDGE JORDA: I think in the English version

15 it's "567."

16 MR. HARMON: It may be in the English

17 version, but I'm referring, Mr. President, to the

18 Croatian version.

19 Q. Let me draw your attention to the way those

20 figures are formed, Brigadier, and then I want your

21 analysis.

22 Brigadier, will you look at these figures,

23 please, very carefully, and just to help you in looking

24 at these letters, I direct your attention, as well, to

25 the second page of this document, and you'll see the

Page 11880

1 numbers "567" in paragraph 5, the fifth line down?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Let me ask you to, please, examine the way

4 these numbers appear on this page. Directing your

5 attention to the numbers that I have previously

6 directed your attention to, do you see how the number 5

7 goes below the horizontal base of the sentence? Do you

8 see what I mean? I'm referring to this area right

9 here, where the number 5 appears here, and the number 7

10 that appears to dip below. Could you examine the

11 document, please? Do you agree with me?

12 JUDGE JORDA: Can you explain what you're

13 trying to show, please, Mr. Harmon?

14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm asking the

15 witness if the numbers, such as "5" and "7," are

16 longer.

17 JUDGE JORDA: On the first page?

18 MR. HARMON: On any page, any "5," any

19 number "7."

20 JUDGE JORDA: Number 5, yes.

21 MR. HARMON: And number 7?

22 JUDGE JORDA: Number 7, yes.

23 MR. HARMON: If they appear to go below the

24 bottom line of the sentence, the invisible line.

25 JUDGE JORDA: If you prefer, if you take the

Page 11881

1 dash as being the line, as being the base of the word.

2 MR. HARMON: The base of the word,

3 Mr. President, and the base of the numbers appears to

4 be ...

5 Q. Do you see what I'm talking about,

6 Brigadier?

7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may be of

8 assistance, my learned friend is asking the witness,

9 who is not an expert, to provide expertise on numbers,

10 and I think that that is inappropriate.

11 On the other hand, if, in addition to number

12 957, then you see the next number, 921, you will see

13 differences between the two 9s. Obviously, there are

14 capital and small letters, because it is an old

15 typewriter. But this witness is not an expert witness

16 who could answer this question, so he's being asked to

17 analyse something he is not familiar with.

18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I'm not at all in

19 agreement with you. For the moment, Mr. Harmon has not

20 asked him to provide expert opinion on typewritten

21 numbers. Mr. Harmon, if I understand him well, is

22 simply asking the witness, your witness, to note that

23 there is a disparity between the numbers.

24 Perhaps, Mr. Nobilo, you can justify this

25 with an old typewriter and so on, but that is another

Page 11882

1 problem. For the moment, I don't think we should

2 interrupt Mr. Harmon.

3 Please go on. You want to have this

4 difference in the numbers stated, don't you?

5 MR. HARMON: Yes.

6 Q. Brigadier, do you see the differences I'm

7 talking about in terms of the serifs of these

8 particular numbers being below the plane on which these

9 other numbers sit?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to two

12 other numbers in this document, the date on the upper

13 left-hand corner that says "16/4/93"; do you see that?

14 Do you see the number 6?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Does the number 6 appear, to you, to go below

17 this line?

18 A. Not quite the way you've drawn it.

19 Q. Does the number 6 in the date that appears

20 "16/4/93," paragraph 3, appear to be one of these

21 elongated letters like the numbers 9, 5, and 7?

22 A. No. Number 6 cannot be elongated when it's

23 quite a different number. It's turned the other way

24 around.

25 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to

Page 11883

1 paragraph 4, which has a date that you said is 15. Let

2 me ask you, where you say the 5 is, does there appear

3 to be any elongation under the number which you say is

4 5?

5 A. This number 5 has no elongation, as we can

6 see.

7 Q. In your opinion, Brigadier, is it more likely

8 that that is number 6, similar to the number 6 that

9 appears in "16/4/93" in paragraph 3?

10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have come to

11 what I said just three minutes ago. This is an expert

12 opinion that is being asked, and it is appropriate to

13 address such a question to an expert.

14 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I'm afraid I would be

15 prone to agree with Mr. Nobilo. We are entering an

16 area which is rather complex. You are asking someone

17 who, a priori or a postiori, did not draft the

18 document. You're asking him to note the differences

19 between the numbers. Let's go to the end of your

20 thoughts. Are you thinking that these may be

21 forgeries? We can't stop halfway. I think things

22 should be said to the end.

23 MR. HARMON: Yes.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I wish to remind

25 you that we need to have a break shortly.

Page 11884

1 MR. HARMON: Perhaps now, Mr. President,

2 would be an appropriate time to take a break.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Do you have many more questions

4 for your cross-examination?

5 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President, I do not. I

6 have some additional questions on this topic, but ...

7 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. My colleague is reminding

8 you that I asked you to go to the end of your thought

9 regarding these numbers. Do you think that this

10 document was, in some way, interfered with? What is it

11 that you want to say? We can't stop there with

12 this pseudo-expertise of handwriting.

13 MR. HARMON: I'll ask the witness about

14 another document, similar, and ask him for his

15 opinion.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I think that the

17 interpreters must be tired. We're all lost in these

18 figures. All I know is that it's five to four. It is

19 a real four and a real five, and we're going to have a

20 break.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.37 p.m.

23 JUDGE JORDA: We are now resuming. Please

24 have the accused brought in.

25 (The accused entered court)

Page 11885

1 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?

2 MR. HARMON: I'd like to introduce the

3 following exhibit, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Microphone, please.

5 MR. HARMON: I'm offering Prosecutor's next

6 exhibit, and this is an exhibit which is a better copy

7 of Defence Exhibit 194.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Would you like me to give it

9 a new number with the number of a Prosecution Exhibit?

10 MR. HARMON: Yes, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: So the document will be

12 marked Prosecution Exhibit 474.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, what are you trying

14 to show to us now about these figures?

15 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I just want to

16 introduce a better copy of Defence Exhibit 194. This

17 happens to be a slightly clearer copy, and my intention

18 is only to direct the Court's attention and the

19 witness's attention to the number that has been in

20 issue for the last few minutes, and that is whether, in

21 paragraph 4, the second line, the date, it is; a "15"

22 or a "16."

23 Q. Brigadier, do you have Prosecution Exhibit

24 474 in front of you, and can you please take a look at

25 the number and give us your interpretation of that

Page 11886

1 number, now that this document appears to be a little

2 bit better copy. Does that appear to be a "15" or a

3 "16" in paragraph 4?

4 A. As far as I can see, it is the same number

5 that I have seen previously, which is "15." That is

6 what I can see on this document.

7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours,

8 I would just direct your attention to the order number

9 and the date that is found in paragraph 3 and the order

10 number and date that appears in paragraph 4, just

11 merely for your comparison purposes only.

12 If I could have the next exhibit marked in

13 evidence, please?

14 JUDGE JORDA: Well, I have to say, for quite

15 awhile I've been wanting to say that maybe we can do it

16 by referring to the number of the order. I suppose

17 that the orders had numbers, and so different orders do

18 not have the same numbers. In order to find out

19 whether it is 15 or 16, in trying to figure out what it

20 was, maybe we can see which order it was. There might

21 be a slight imprecision, but in that case, that could

22 help us.

23 What do you want to say, Mr. Hayman?

24 MR. HAYMAN: We could really cut through

25 this, Mr. President, if the BH government would give us

Page 11887

1 the order of the 3rd Corps.

2 MR. HARMON: I have it, Mr. President.

3 MR. HAYMAN: We have asked them for it, and

4 they told us they couldn't find it. Now, if the

5 Prosecutor has had better luck at getting it, first of

6 all, I would suggest it may contain exculpatory

7 evidence, and he may have an obligation to give it to

8 the Defence. Secondly, he might produce it, the BH

9 government having declined to produce it to the

10 Defence.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, this is a public

12 hearing, and I have to say that I fully agree with what

13 you've just said, but I have to add that it would also

14 help us if Croatia also answered to various injunctions

15 that are issued when we ask for it. We have to count

16 here on the cooperation of different states, and that

17 is true. If the parties, both your party and the

18 Prosecution, have at their disposal, all the various

19 governments on which this depends, we should not have

20 to go through this type of acrobatic accounting, trying

21 to see whether this is a 5 or a 6. I agree with you,

22 but I wanted to complete it.

23 Putting this aside, I would like to ask the

24 Prosecutor to ask the questions to the witness and try

25 to find what number of the order it was, starting with

Page 11888

1 "02."

2 Please ask your question now.

3 MR. HARMON: All right.

4 Q. Brigadier Zeko, can you tell me what you

5 believe the order number in paragraph 4 is, starting

6 with "02-33"?

7 A. The number "02-33-867," that is the number of

8 the order.

9 Q. Does that appear to be the same number that

10 appears in paragraph 3?

11 A. Which number do you mean, number 8 or number

12 6?

13 Q. In paragraph number 3 of this document, there

14 appears to be an order number starting with "02-33,"

15 and that is at the end of the second sentence. Do you

16 see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What number does that appear to be?

19 A. "O2-33," and then the number that's here

20 before. Only to my assessment, I think my assessment

21 is that it should be "867."

22 JUDGE JORDA: What is your aim now, Mr.

23 Harmon, before we take a decision to try and find a way

24 out of it?

25 MR. HARMON: I have one more question of this

Page 11889

1 particular witness on Prosecution Exhibit 474, and then

2 I will move to the order number 02-33-867, the

3 Prosecutor's next exhibit.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Are you trying to prove that it

5 was on the 16th of April?

6 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President. The

7 Defence, yesterday, said that this document, their 194,

8 said it was the 15th of April, and I am attempting to

9 establish that the document --

10 JUDGE JORDA: No. The document is dated, the

11 document itself -- just a moment. Which document are

12 you speaking of?

13 MR. HARMON: Yesterday, Mr. President, the

14 Defence offered Defence Exhibit 194. They referred to

15 paragraph 4, and they said that the date that appeared

16 in paragraph 4 was the 15th of April.

17 JUDGE JORDA: The 15th of April.

18 MR. HARMON: I can direct the Court's

19 attention to the portion of the transcript, and I am

20 attempting to establish that this is not the 15th, but

21 the 16th of April.

22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. So now I would like

23 to consult with my colleagues before giving our

24 opinion.

25 JUDGE JORDA: The Judges have decided, in

Page 11890

1 function of Article 98, we ask the Prosecutor to make

2 the request to Bosnia-Herzegovina to give us the

3 original of this order. And the motivation for it is

4 that the Prosecutor has the interests to show that the

5 order, 02-33-867, is dated the 16th and not the 15th of

6 April. Mr. Prosecutor, this is the decision of the

7 Trial Chamber, and please transmit it to the government

8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We would like to have the

9 original in our archives, the original of this order.

10 MR. HARMON: Yes, there is no problem. I

11 will convey that, Mr. President, as soon as I conclude

12 with the court session today.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.


15 Q. Two last questions about 194A, the document

16 we have been talking about. Do you have that in front

17 of you, Brigadier, this order for attack of the 16th of

18 April, 1993?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the first paragraph I would like to

21 direct your attention to, the order for the attack

22 indicates why there is an order for this particular

23 attack; does it not?

24 It indicates that the HVO are committing

25 brutal aggression in the wide area of Central Bosnia,

Page 11891

1 focusing on Vitez, and especially in the direction of

2 Ahmici.

3 It goes on to say that the soldiers of the

4 HVO are terrorising the civilian population. And it

5 concludes by saying, does it not, that the basic goal

6 of this aggression is to establish military control

7 over the sovereign, over the territory of the sovereign

8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is under

9 attack, in order to create conditions for the political

10 demarcation of the artificial construct called

11 Herceg-Bosna, and that is the basis for giving this

12 order.

13 Have I accurately characterised what is found

14 in paragraph number one?

15 A. Yes, that is what is written in paragraph

16 number one.

17 MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have the next

18 exhibit, please.

19 THE REGISTRAR: The document is 475, 475A for

20 the English translation.


22 Q. Brigadier, does this number 02-33-867, dated

23 the 16th of April 1993, deal with the subject matter

24 that was found in the previous 194 Defence Exhibit, the

25 previous order that was issued to the 303rd Mountain

Page 11892

1 Brigade? Does it appear to be that very same order

2 that is mentioned in Defence Exhibit 194?

3 JUDGE JORDA: Have you got this order, then,

4 Mr. Harmon?

5 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I indicated I was

6 intending to introduce this order. I do have it and it

7 is the order that is before Your Honours, Prosecutor's

8 Exhibit 475.

9 MR. HAYMAN: We are pleased the order is

10 here, Mr. President and Your Honours, but I have two

11 comments, for the record: One is, this Court

12 previously issued the binding order to the government

13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina to produce documents, including

14 this order, to the Defence.

15 They declined to do so, instead providing it

16 to the Prosecution, which I think would cause grave

17 concerns to the Trial Chamber.

18 Secondly, we don't know how long the

19 Prosecutor has had it, but I will call the Court's

20 attention to the fact we were not given this document

21 under Rule 68. And yet, it says it is the 3rd Corps

22 directing the 303rd Brigade of the BH army to, on the

23 16th of April, provide assistance, among other things,

24 reading from paragraph one, provide assistance to our

25 forces in the village of Putis, Jelinak, Loncari,

Page 11893

1 Nadioci and Ahmici, directly addressing the issue of

2 whether there were BH army forces in those locations.

3 We should have gotten this document from the

4 Prosecutor under Rule 68, Your Honours.

5 MR. HARMON: I would be glad to answer that,

6 Mr. President. We received this document this morning,

7 and this is an opportunity that we have had to present

8 it to the Court and to counsel.

9 So, in respect of the Rule 68 violation,

10 Mr. President, I take serious issue with that.

11 MR. HAYMAN: Obviously the Prosecutor's only

12 strategic objectives took precedence over Rule 68.

13 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I don't care to

14 engage in a lengthy debate with Mr. Hayman on this

15 particular issue, but this issue was raised by virtue

16 of Mr. Hayman yesterday standing up and pointing to the

17 exhibit he presented, 194, and indicating that the date

18 was the 15th of April, as opposed to the 16th of April.

19 That, Mr. President, piqued our interest in

20 this issue and we pursued it. Mr. Hayman may not like

21 the results, but we pursued the issue based on an issue

22 that he raised in the course of his direct examination

23 of this witness.

24 MR. HAYMAN: It raises the question,

25 Mr. President, what other exculpatory material is at

Page 11894

1 the fingertips of the Prosecutor, but technically in

2 the possession of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

3 and therefore, there is no obligation to produce it,

4 they believe.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I'm going to give

6 you various answers about various things.

7 In general, you are right in saying that the

8 Prosecutor has to give you all the exculpatory

9 evidence. But in this case that is the controversy

10 that appeared yesterday. I think that's yesterday

11 evening, I suppose, yesterday evening.

12 The Office of the Prosecutor tried to find an

13 explanation to this problem of dates. If this document

14 was received this morning, they should have been given

15 to you; but I would not like to make any lengthy

16 polemics now.

17 But the Prosecutor managed to have, very

18 rapidly, the answer from one of the states in the

19 region, but I will come back to my general remark on

20 the three states in the region, although I do not want

21 to go into the details. But whatever I said was my

22 personal opinion and has nothing to do with my

23 colleagues.

24 There is something else that I would like to

25 say, and I think this Trial Chamber has to have the

Page 11895

1 dignified face towards Bosnia and Herzegovina. We now

2 issued an order where we wanted to clear the matter of

3 typewriters. We issued an order requesting Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina to forward us the order 02-33-867, dated

5 16th of April; but I think, Mr. Harmon, that you have

6 got it. So, it's an order that is already requested,

7 it's already been fulfilled. Is this the same order?

8 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE JORDA: So, it is the same order.

10 MR. HARMON: This is the order,

11 Mr. President, about which there has been the

12 considerable debate.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Well, as my colleague just told

14 me, that this Trial Chamber is really very satisfied

15 that we have just issued an order and it was fulfilled

16 straight away.

17 This is very specific to the International

18 Criminal Tribunal, but we are now going to put an end

19 to this incident.

20 Mr. Harmon, I would like to give you, once

21 again, the possibility to ask the witness, and ask him

22 the questions you wanted to ask him about this

23 document, which is 475, I believe.

24 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, 475 is the order

25 that has been the subject of the controversy in the

Page 11896

1 Defence Exhibit 194. I am submitting it on its face.

2 It speaks for itself. I have no additional questions

3 of this witness, and I would like to now turn to the

4 last Defence Exhibit, 195A, if that could be placed in

5 front of the witness, I would appreciate it.

6 JUDGE JORDA: We have 475 here.

7 MR. HARMON: 195, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Do we have 195? It must be in

9 my documents. Yes, I see, thank you.


11 Q. I have some very brief questions about this

12 document, please, Brigadier. First of all, this

13 document was sent from the command of the Viteska

14 Brigade. Can you tell me where the command of the

15 Viteska Brigade was located?

16 A. In this time period, on this date I wouldn't

17 know. I know that later on it was in the Isumarja

18 (phoen) or forestry building, but I'm not sure it was

19 there at this time.

20 Q. To whom was this particular document sent?

21 A. It was also sent, as usual, to the brigade

22 commander and to me as the chief of the military

23 intelligence service.

24 Q. Can you tell me, by looking at this

25 particular document, what form of transmission this

Page 11897

1 document was sent? Are those fax numbers that faintly

2 appear in the upper part of this document?

3 A. This document could have been sent by fax,

4 telephone. As far as I can tell, it was typed on the

5 mechanical typewriter.

6 Q. This document was sent during the period of

7 combat on the 22nd of April, 1992 from a brigade

8 headquarters to both the commander of the Central

9 Bosnia Operational Zone and to your command?

10 A. It says, "To the command of the Central

11 Bosnia Operative Military Intelligence Service," which

12 means it was forwarded to Bila.

13 Q. That's fine. I understood your testimony to

14 be that it was sent to Colonel Blaskic, as well.

15 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions

16 with this document, Mr. President. I move to admit

17 Prosecutor's Exhibit 467 through 475, and I have

18 concluded my examination.

19 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I have

20 understood correctly, my learned colleague has tendered

21 documents for admission. We have no objection, but we

22 would like the statement from the Prosecutor that he

23 received document 457 from the government of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, because in response to the same

25 request the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina replied

Page 11898

1 that it couldn't find it.

2 475A, that is the document we are referring

3 to. We have no other objections regarding any of the

4 documents.

5 JUDGE JORDA: This is very important and very

6 serious what you have just said, Mr. Nobilo. Can you

7 provide the correspondence to the Registry of your

8 request for this document?

9 MR. NOBILO: Not from the Prosecution, from

10 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Of course, the reply. When did

12 you ask for the document, when was it refused to you?

13 A copy of your letter, a copy of the reply, and, of

14 course, reference to the document to make sure that it

15 was well identified.

16 And we will see when we ask a state from the

17 region, some parties get it very quickly and others

18 don't get it. I'm saying it in this case for this

19 state, but I may say the same for another state on

20 another day.

21 This is obviously in the record.

22 MR. NOBILO: Yes, Mr. President, we will

23 submit to you our entire correspondence regarding this

24 matter. Thank you.


Page 11899

1 Q. Mr. Brigadier, this is the document you first

2 saw when the Defence showed it to you. You didn't see

3 it when you were making your own assessments.

4 A. Which document?

5 Q. It is D194. It is the document we received

6 from the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina we have been

7 talking about for the last hour.

8 The fact that the order of the 3rd Corps was

9 issued on the 16th in the morning, before 12 o'clock,

10 or on the 15th; does it change anything in respect of

11 your conclusion that the BH army was planning an attack

12 on the Lasva Valley?

13 A. No, it doesn't change anything.

14 Q. Tell me, when a corps issues the command for

15 an attack, does it, prior to that, issue a preparatory

16 order and then the actual executive order; or does the

17 executive order come immediately?

18 A. Before any activity is engaged in, either

19 defensive or offensive operation, first a preparatory

20 order is issued for the organisation of the unit, and

21 after that comes the order for carrying out that

22 operation, be it a defensive or offensive one.

23 Q. Therefore, a preparatory order had to have

24 been issued at some time prior to the morning of the

25 16th of April, '93?

Page 11900

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I will read to you Prosecutor Exhibit 475,

3 the last one we just received, but something that the

4 Prosecutor did not read to you. So I'm going to ask

5 you what it means to you as a military man. I'm

6 reading from the middle of the first paragraph.

7 Let me read the whole paragraph, to give you

8 the context, and I'm going to quote it. "The 3rd Corps

9 orders that the commander of the 303rd Mountain Brigade

10 will, from its troops, select one battalion," and then

11 hand-written "with the second and third municipal staff

12 of the Defence of Zenica," I can't read the

13 handwriting, exactly, "from the present area of

14 deployment, take them along the

15 Zenica-Drivusa-Janjici-Janjicki Vrh-Gubanci axis, and

16 capture and take control of the Defence region, grid

17 point 957, in depth of the quota elevation point." We

18 can't see the figure well. And then it says, now

19 listen carefully, "To provide assistance to our forces

20 in the village of Putis, Jelinak, Loncari, Nadioci, and

21 Ahmici, our forces in those villages, in the event of

22 an attack launched by the enemy, forcefully respond and

23 embark on a counter-attack along Nadioci-Sivrino Selo

24 axis." There is no need to quote further from this

25 document.

Page 11901

1 What can one deduce from this? That in the

2 villages of Ahmici, Nadioci, Loncari, Jelinak, and

3 Putis, there were elements of the BH army, according to

4 this document?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have a map as

7 an exhibit. Could it be placed on the ELMO or given to

8 the witness and distributed to their Honours and the

9 Prosecution?

10 Q. Brigadier, could you get up, approach the

11 map, and look to see whether a unit of the BH army in

12 Ahmici is marked on this map? Will you tell us aloud,

13 please?

14 A. Yes. I will look at the map.

15 Q. Very well.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This map is for the period the end of

18 December '92, beginning of January '93. There are too

19 many details for me to check, whether everything is

20 exact, but according to the key, the blue colour

21 indicates the Bosnian Serb army. So I'm asking you,

22 once again --

23 A. I'm sorry.

24 Q. -- whether the unit in Ahmici has been marked

25 in blue. You may sit down.

Page 11902

1 Can you describe how it was marked and which

2 are the closest villages, so that we can identify

3 exactly where Ahmici is, that is, the villages named on

4 the map, because Ahmici is not, and how those units

5 have been marked.

6 A. Nadioci, Sivrino Selo.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 MR. NOBILO: We are tendering this map

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D196.

21 JUDGE JORDA: 196?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that is

23 correct.


25 Q. Brigadier, would you please look with me,

Page 11903

1 once again, at document D194 and the Prosecution

2 document 475? Very well. That will do, so as not to

3 waste time.

4 Yesterday morning, or maybe in the afternoon,

5 I'm not sure -- actually, it was in the morning, during

6 the cross-examination by the Prosecution regarding the

7 numbers of brigades, he said that he didn't have the

8 document, but he also claimed that there was no 303rd

9 Brigade from Zenica. By insight into document D194 and

10 insight into document 475, what can you see from them?

11 Is this evidence that the 303rd Brigade did exist in

12 Zenica or not?

13 A. Yes, that the 303rd Brigade exists, based in

14 Zenica.

15 Q. Therefore, the D194 document was issued by

16 the 303rd Brigade, and document 475 was addressed to

17 the brigade in Zenica; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Will you please look at document D187? It is

20 the assessment of the allies from the 6th of January,

21 1993. Will you look at the second page of the Croatian

22 text, and at the bottom, can you tell me, in the fourth

23 paragraph, how many soldiers did the unit accommodate

24 in Silosu Mehurici?

25 A. 2.300 men.

Page 11904

1 Q. How many men were at the front at Visoko and

2 Turbe against the Serbs?

3 A. 160 troops.

4 Q. Is that what it says in that document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Tell me, where, according to this document,

7 were the other soldiers, by far, the majority of those

8 soldiers? What does that document tell us?

9 A. It says that they were deployed in the

10 villages with the weapons, which means they were not

11 towards the Bosnian Serb army.

12 Q. Does it say that there were 1.500 automatic

13 and semi-automatic rifles, 20 anti-aircraft guns, 10

14 anti-air guns, 15 mortars, and three recoilless guns.

15 Does it say that, too, in the document?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Document D186, the diary of Enes Varupa, will

18 you look through that document, please, and tell me,

19 would you agree with me that the first date that

20 appears in that document is the 17th of February, 1992,

21 and the last date appearing there, look through it,

22 please, is the 15th of April, 1992, the first and last

23 dates that can be seen in this document?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me, in the Vitez municipality where this

Page 11905

1 document originated, between February 1992 and the

2 middle of April 1992 or, rather, in that period, when

3 was the BH army founded, on what date?

4 A. The BH army was established in this area on

5 the 1st of December, 1992.

6 Q. But when did Territorial Defence units start

7 or, rather, when did the war begin in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina? When was Sarajevo attacked?

9 A. In April 1991.

10 Q. Can we say, then, that these were the first

11 weeks that are mentioned in this diary, the first weeks

12 of the formation of the Territorial Defence, the

13 precursor of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? We're

14 talking about April '92. It has been correctly entered

15 in the transcript as April '91.

16 Can we say that, at the beginning, the

17 Territorial Defence was poorly armed from February to

18 April? Was this the generalised phenomenon?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can we say that the main warehouses and

21 depots captured by the HVO and the Territorial Defence

22 were captured as of May that year, that is, after these

23 dates?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can we say that the equipment of the HVO and

Page 11906

1 the Territorial Defence was significantly improved

2 after May?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Exhibit D193, please. You remember this

5 document, D193, whether it said the 14th of March or

6 the 14th of April, '93. You said that it was the 14th

7 of April. Why do you believe it is the 14th of April

8 and not the 14th of March?

9 A. Because it can be seen here that the number 4

10 has been typed over number 3.

11 Q. So these are numbers indicating months. Were

12 they written by hand or by typewriter? Can you answer

13 that?

14 A. By typewriter.

15 Q. So you're concluding that the last figure

16 typed was "4," and you come to the conclusion that it

17 was in April?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can we see Prosecution Exhibit 467, the

20 decision on the formation of the corps of the BH army?

21 Exhibit 467.

22 Brigadier, will you please look at this

23 decision and tell us, does it represent an

24 administrative basis for the formation of the corps, or

25 at the moment that the decision was made, does that

Page 11907

1 mean that the corps were formed? What would you say as

2 the military man?

3 A. No. This is an administrative decision

4 regarding the formation of the corps.

5 Q. Let me draw your attention to the second

6 paragraph and, within the second paragraph, the third

7 part listing the municipalities of the 3rd Corps. My

8 question is: Was the 3rd Corps ever, to this day, in

9 Banja Luka, Bosanska Dubica, Bosanska Gradiska?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Why not?

12 A. Because then and now, this was the territory

13 under the control of the Bosnian Serb army.

14 Q. So an administrative decision and the wish is

15 one thing, and the actual state of affairs is another?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then, will you repeat, when, in effect, the

18 3rd Corps was formed?

19 A. The 3rd Corps was formed on the 1st of

20 December, 1992.

21 Q. Thank you. Let us go on to document --

22 MR. NOBILO: Just the moment, please. We

23 didn't take note of the number of the exhibit.

24 Mr. Dubuisson, could you help us? It's the

25 warning regarding behaviour towards joint property in

Page 11908

1 Travnik, vehicles and communication vehicles. It is

2 Exhibit 470.

3 Q. Do you recall that the Prosecutor asked you

4 about this? Could you explain to the Court what this

5 means, attitude towards common property? Did the HVO

6 ever control the maintenance institute in Travnik, that

7 is, did it have full control of it itself? Who, in the

8 end, took over this institute, this common property,

9 and who managed it independently, eventually? Could

10 you explain the confusion over this document?

11 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, common property

12 means that both the Territorial Defence and the HVO, at

13 the time, had possession over this equipment. The HVO

14 never had possession of this equipment on its own, nor

15 did it use this equipment as an owner.

16 Q. Who, in the end, threw who out and took full

17 control over this institute?

18 A. At the end, it was the BH army which took

19 full control over this institute, as well as the

20 barracks and all the equipment, and all the materiel

21 remained in the possession of the BH army.

22 Q. When you were testifying that the BH army had

23 control over all the military industry, with the

24 exception of the explosives factory in Vitez, is that

25 true?

Page 11909

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. NOBILO: It is almost 5.30. Shall I

3 proceed, Your Honours, Mr. President, because I have

4 some more questions.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE JORDA: I was just going to ask you

7 that question. I think we shall not proceed, as you

8 have the number of questions to put.

9 In that case, I invite you to resume our work

10 tomorrow afternoon. In line with our timetable, which

11 is well-known to everyone, we will resume at 2.00 p.m.

12 tomorrow afternoon for the end of the re-examination by

13 the Defence, the questions of the Judges, after which,

14 we shall have the Status Conference on various

15 organisational matters regarding the Blaskic trial, and

16 then we will hear the next witness.

17 The hearing is adjourned until tomorrow at

18 2.00 p.m.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20 5.30 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday,

21 the 23rd day of September, 1998 at

22 2.00 p.m.