1 Tuesday, 22nd September, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 10.14 a.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Registrar,
5 could you please bring in the accused?
6 (The accused entered court)
7 JUDGE JORDA: Can everyone hear me? First of
8 all, I would like to greet the interpreters. I hope
9 everybody is ready, and we are now going to continue
10 with the cross-examination, as soon as Brigadier Zeko
11 will come and join us. Yes, Ivica Zeko.
12 Let me just seize this occasion, after this
13 witness, our colleague, Olivier Fourmy, has informed me
14 of a number of points, and I would like to know how far
15 we have gone with our schedule from now to the end of
16 the year. I think that we can have a small Status
17 Conference on this matter before the next witness comes
18 in, an informal Status Conference, either just before
19 the next witness comes in, and Mr. Olivier Fourmy will
20 be with us.
21 Is the witness ready?
22 (The witness entered court)
23 JUDGE JORDA: Can you hear me, Brigadier?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 JUDGE JORDA: You may be seated. If you have
1 rested, we can proceed now. Thank you.
2 Mr. Harmon, you may proceed.
3 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours.
4 Good morning, Counsel.
5 WITNESS: IVICA ZEKO
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:
7 Q. Good morning, Brigadier Zeko.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Brigadier, did the HVO in Central Bosnia
10 mount offensive operations against the Serbs in 1992?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did they mount offence operations against the
13 Serbs in 1993 in Central Bosnia?
14 A. They had frontlines with the Serbs, yes, but
15 they did not undertake any offensive actions.
16 Q. Now, before the HVO mounted offensive
17 operations against the Serbs in 1992, did your
18 intelligence operation provide intelligence information
19 to Colonel Blaskic before each of those offensive
21 A. Yes. Those operations were mostly holding
22 those current frontlines, but there were not any major
24 Q. The type of intelligence operation that you
25 furnished to Colonel Blaskic before the operations
1 against the Serb positions, can you tell us what kind
2 of information that included?
3 A. Well, those were the status and the
4 deployment of the enemy.
5 Q. When you say "the status and deployment," you
6 mean where the enemy was located, in which positions;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What else do you mean?
10 A. Where they were and how the units were
11 deployed along those lines.
12 Q. Now, did Colonel Blaskic routinely request
13 that kind of information from you before he mounted an
15 A. Just one correction, please. You were
16 mentioning Colonel Blaskic, whether he asked that from
17 me. I was the deputy head of the staff for
18 intelligence. I would always report to my superior,
19 and then he would have his duties towards the head of
20 the operational centre of Central Bosnia. So I carried
21 out my duties, regardless of the fact whether any
22 operations were to be mounted or not.
23 Q. Who is the head of your intelligence
24 section? You said you were the deputy. Who was the
25 head of it?
1 A. The head of the intelligence department in
2 the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia was I, but in the
3 staff, the head of the staff of the headquarters to
4 which I belong was Franjo Nakic.
5 Q. Now, my question to you, Brigadier, was did
6 Colonel Blaskic routinely request intelligence
7 information from you before he mounted an operation?
8 A. I don't recall whether I had any tasks like
9 that, any requests of the kind.
10 Q. Now, let me turn your attention to the visual
11 aids and this very impressive visual production that
12 you have testified about. Did you prepare these aids
14 A. No. I prepared everything on the maps and on
15 paper, and I gave it to the Defence team.
16 Q. On what did you rely to prepare these various
17 visual aids?
18 A. I relied on my notes, the notes that I made
19 during the war.
20 Q. Did you rely on any other documents, besides
21 the notes that you made during the war?
22 A. Mostly the notes.
23 Q. What else did you rely on, Brigadier?
24 A. I said mostly on the notes, because the data
25 that I had, the information that I had, that is
1 something that I took note of just very shortly.
2 Q. Did you rely on any orders of any kind? Did
3 you rely on any intercepted orders of any kind?
4 A. All that is in my notes, all the orders I got
5 hold of and all the information I could get hold of.
6 So I always took notes about these things.
7 Q. So we can clarify this point, Brigadier, are
8 we talking about personal notes that you made or are we
9 talking about personal archives that you've kept?
10 A. No, about personal notes.
11 Q. I'm sorry. I did not understand your
13 A. What I said now, I said about personal notes.
14 Q. Did you rely on any archival documents?
15 A. I said all the documents that came into my
16 hands, I took personal notes of that, so whatever went
17 through the archives, whatever I put in the archives.
18 Q. Now, after you took personal notes of these
19 documents, what did you do with the documents? Did you
20 send them to an archives?
21 A. I took notes during the whole wartime period
22 in my diary, but later on, I did not go back to the
23 archives because I already had everything.
24 Q. Listen to my question very carefully, please,
25 Brigadier. The documents from which you took your
1 personal notes were sent to an archives; is that
3 A. No.
4 Q. What was done with those documents?
5 A. I said that all the documents that I had and
6 all the estimates that I had made, I also kept a diary
7 and made my own notes, an internal diary. And while I
8 was preparing the notes for now, the ones that I told
9 of you, I did not go back to the archives.
10 Q. You misunderstood my question, Brigadier. My
11 question was, after you took a document and made a note
12 from it --
13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, I wouldn't like us
14 to go too far away from our goals here. What are you
15 trying to achieve? What the Judges want to know is
16 whether, through all the documents that were presented
17 and commented on by the Defence witness, you consider
18 that his evidence is relevant or not. Let us not make
19 any mistakes on that, and please let us go forward, in
20 as much as we can.
21 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
22 Q. Brigadier, let me take the first visual aid,
23 and I have one small question about that.
24 MR. HARMON: If we could have the assistance
25 of the usher and, Mr. Dubuisson, if you could place the
1 small number 1 on the ELMO.
2 Q. Brigadier, I just have one or two small
3 questions about this particular visual aid that you
4 assisted in the preparation of.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This is number D183/1.
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. Can you see that on your monitor, Brigadier?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The only question I have about this
10 particular exhibit, Brigadier, you see the
11 Vitez-Busovaca pocket and then the Kiseljak pocket
12 depicted in pale yellow in an area surrounded by green?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What time period does that particular
15 configuration of the two pockets come from? Which
16 year, what month, if you're able to tell us?
17 A. This state of affairs was valid already after
18 the Washington Agreement was signed.
19 Q. Thank you, Brigadier. Now, if we could put
20 4B on the ELMO, Brigadier, do you see that on your
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, in your testimony, you failed to give us
24 a particular date. On the top of this diagram, it says
25 that this is the organisational formation, and it
1 indicates the 1st of December, 1992. Does this
2 diagram, 4B, represent the structure of the 3rd Corps
3 on the 1st of December, 1992?
4 A. Just a moment. I must check in my notes.
5 Yes, the 1st of December, 1992.
6 Q. As I understood your testimony, you prepared
7 this based on your notes exclusively; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Yesterday, you corrected this schematic, as I
10 recall in your testimony, and you added four additional
11 brigades, the 315th and 316th Brigades from Visoko, the
12 370th Brigade from Donji Vakuf, and the 311th Brigade
13 from Kakanj, and those, you indicated, should fall
14 under the area of mountain brigades, if I'm correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, in your previous testimony, and I'm
17 referring to the English transcript at page 11649, you
18 indicated, Brigadier, that the 3rd Corps of the army --
19 I'm sorry, Counsel. I'm referring to lines 20 and 21.
20 You indicated that the 3rd Corps of the army of Bosnia
21 and Herzegovina was set up on the 1st of December,
22 1992. Do you remember that testimony?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, what was the date of the establishment
25 of the corps in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
1 A. The 3rd of September, 1992.
2 MR. HARMON: If I could have the assistance
3 of the usher, I would like to have the following
4 exhibit marked as the next Prosecutor's order. For the
5 record, Mr. President and Your Honours, this is an
6 exhibit which has been translated only into English,
7 and it is in the original BCS language.
8 THE REGISTRAR: This is document 467 and 467A
9 for the English translation.
10 MR. HARMON:
11 Q. Now, Brigadier, do you see Prosecution
12 Exhibit 467 in front of you? Do you see it in your
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The decision that established the corps
16 structures established those structures on the 18th of
17 August, 1992; isn't that correct? If you turn to the
18 last page, you'll see a date and, Colonel, you'll also
19 see about that date, you'll see a sentence that reads
20 that the decision shall enter into force on the day
21 that it is issued?
22 A. The date is beneath the number, Sarajevo, the
23 11th of August, 1992.
24 Q. Let me correct you, sir. It's August the
25 18th of 1992; is it not?
1 A. Yes, yes, on this exhibit of yours.
2 Q. At the bottom, it has, at least, a stamp of
3 President Izetbegovic on the lower right-hand side of
4 the last page; correct? Do you see the name "Ilija
5 Izetbegovic" on that document?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, let's examine that document together,
8 Brigadier. I direct your attention to the first
9 article of that document on the first page?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The first article establishes five corps,
12 does it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, referring to the second article, and I'd
15 like to direct your attention to 2nd Corps, second
16 article, where it essentially identifies each of the
17 municipalities where each of the corps will have
18 authority; is that correct?
19 A. The second article indicates the
20 municipalities which were covered by the 2nd Corps.
21 Q. And all five corps; isn't that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I won't name them all, but in 2nd Corps,
24 there are approximately 20 municipalities or so, a
25 large number of municipalities over which 3rd Corps had
1 responsibility; is that correct?
2 A. You said the 2nd Corps covering 20
3 municipalities which were also covered by the 3rd
4 Corps, so I didn't quite understand.
5 Q. I think there was a translation problem,
6 Brigadier. Let me just get directly to the point. The
7 municipalities, where each of the corps had
8 responsibility, are identified in Article 2 of this
9 particular decision; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I direct your attention to the 1st Corps
12 area of responsibility, please. Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is Fojnica municipality in the area of 1st
16 A. In this document, yes.
17 Q. And is Visoko also in the area of
18 responsibility as defined in this document?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, if I could have the assistance of the
21 usher, and if the usher would kindly place this map on
22 the easel. Brigadier, would you kindly approach the
23 map on the easel and take one of the coloured pens
24 that's next to you, and would you please draw the
25 boundaries of 3rd Corps as they existed on April 16th,
2 A. I have already shown you that boundary. The
3 3rd Corps, the zone of responsibility of the 3rd Corps.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The number of this document
5 is 468.
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. Brigadier, could you just take your --
8 MR. HARMON: It's difficult with my tether to
9 not block the diagram, Mr. President.
10 Q. Brigadier, can you hear what I'm saying,
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You have drawn on with a red line going in a
14 direction towards Croatia?
15 A. The line --
16 JUDGE JORDA: For the Judges, it's not very
17 easy. The map is far away. The camera is doing what
18 it can. Everyone is around the map. I would like to
20 Mr. Harmon, you want to ask the witness the
21 boundaries of the command of the 3rd army corps. My
22 question is to Mr. Harmon, are you doing it in relation
23 to a document of a map produced by the witness? Is
24 that the comparison you're making, because otherwise, I
25 have to go up to the map. What is the comparison that
1 you're trying to make? That is what I want to
3 MR. HARMON: What I'm attempting to
4 establish, Mr. President, first of all, this witness is
5 an expert on 3rd Corps, he's testified about 3rd Corps,
6 and I would like him to diagram the area where 3rd
7 Corps had its geographic limits on the 16th of April,
8 1993, and that's my question and he has put a diagram
9 for us.
10 Q. Now, Brigadier, there is no line between
11 these two points. Can you draw the line where 3rd
12 Corps had its geographic limits on April 16th?
13 A. Yes. The line that I have drawn, you told me
14 it was going to Croatia. That has nothing to do with
15 Croatia. So if you saw my map, I draw it much better
16 there, I should indicate the position of the Bosnian
17 Serb army, then the positions of the HVO on this map,
18 and then I should give you the zone of responsibility
19 of the 3rd Corps. I said that Gornji Vakuf and Visoko
20 were included. This line went as far as the Bosnian
21 Serb army, so I gave you the zone of responsibilities
22 indicated with a line which, in military terminology,
23 does not mark any limit. So forget the line. I'm just
24 saying that I've indicated the left and right
25 boundaries of the zone of responsibility of the 3rd
2 Q. My question, Brigadier, is what is the
3 southern boundary of the 3rd Corps which seems to be
4 missing a line? Did it go down as far as Mostar?
5 A. No. In my presentation, I said that it was
6 the zone of responsibility which coincided with the
7 zone of responsibility of the Operative Zone of Central
8 Bosnia. And in military terms, this is how zones of
9 responsibilities are indicated. But to give you a full
10 idea of the deployment, I would need to draw in all the
11 elements on this map.
12 Q. Brigadier, I would like to be a little
13 simpler than that. Where does the zone of
14 responsibility for 3rd Corps end in this region? How
15 far down did it go? Can you draw a line connecting
16 these two points?
17 A. If I were to link these two points, I would
18 be missing the 4th Corps out, I would be leaving it
19 out, and it was operating from Jablanica.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, wouldn't it be
21 simpler to ask the witness, whether in relation to the
22 decision of Mr. Izetbegovic, whether the south limits
23 indicating the municipalities of the 3rd Corps, does it
24 have a southern boundary, a southern limit in this
25 document? Could the witness answer this question,
1 otherwise, I shall have to get up and look at the map,
2 and I'm not very knowledgeable about topography. I
3 understand that you're going to call in question the
4 credibility of the witness, but in the decision of
5 Izetbegovic of the 18th of August, which of the
6 municipalities, which are the furthest south. Perhaps
7 that is not the best way of wording the question, but
8 that's what I'm trying to put across.
9 MR. HARMON: Mr. President --
10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may join in
11 this discussion, I'm afraid that there may be an
12 unintentional confusion by prompting the witness to
13 give an erroneous answer, because Izetbegovic's
14 decision is dated the 18th of August 1992, and my
15 distinguished colleague is asking about the zone of
16 responsibility of the 3rd Corps on the 16th of April,
17 1993, and this is a big difference because zones of
18 responsibility change. So we have to be very careful
19 as regards the date we're talking about.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Nobilo. We have
21 to be very clear, Mr. Harmon. These are professional
22 Judges. These games are accepted, but one has to be
23 very clear. What exactly is your question regarding
24 the 16th of April, '93? What do you wish to get from
25 the witness so that the Judges could also understand
1 what it is you're aiming at? And then the Judges will
2 see whether this is in contradiction with what he has
3 said or not. What is your question? Be very clear,
5 MR. HARMON: My question, Mr. President, is
6 on the 16th of April, can you please draw the area of
7 responsibility of the 3rd Corps of the Bosnian army?
8 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Fine. Is the
9 witness going to do it? Are you capable of answering
10 that or not, on the 16th of April, 1993?
11 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, yes, I am
12 capable of doing it. I have indicated the left and
13 right limits of the zone of responsibility of the 3rd
14 Corps. However, if I draw in the southern limit, which
15 the Prosecutor is asking me to do, then that zone of
16 responsibility enters into the zone of responsibility
17 of the 4th Corps. I have indicated the northern
18 boundary which links up with the other units.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, that is the
20 answer. You have asked a question. Do you have
21 another question to ask? You may not agree with the
22 boundaries of the 4th Corps. If you have a question on
23 the 4th Corps, put it, but the witness has answered
24 your question. Do we agree?
25 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm not
1 interested, particularly, in the boundary of the 4th
2 Corps. I'm interested in where the line on the
3 southern part of this area of responsibility ended for
4 the 3rd Corps, a very simple point.
5 JUDGE JORDA: But he told you that the
6 southern boundary coincides with the 4th Corps of the
8 Is that it, Brigadier?
9 Either you wish to make maps of the
10 overlapping, or you can proceed to another question, so
11 please move forward.
12 MR. HARMON: Well, I will yield at this
13 point, Mr. President. I don't believe the witness is
14 able to draw this line in. I yield.
15 MR. HAYMAN: Counsel can keep his comments to
16 himself, please, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, quite. The word "yield"
18 is not quite proper among professional Judges. The
19 Judges are not asking you to yield. I never ask a
20 party, nor do my colleagues ask for anyone to yield on
21 a question. I'm just trying to organise the debate to
22 make it more effective and clearer, so not yielding
23 anything. If you have another question to put, go
24 ahead. All I'm asking is that you shouldn't ask such
25 complicated questions. Make them clear, and you will
1 get clearer answers.
2 I have to remind you that we are
3 professionals. There's no place in trying to impress
4 non-professional Judges, and, Mr. Hayman, thank you for
5 your remark anyway.
6 Let's proceed now, Mr. Harmon.
7 MR. HARMON: I will come back on one
8 additional question, Mr. President.
9 Q. Brigadier Zeko, can you draw a line
10 separating the area of responsibility from the 3rd
11 Corps and the 4th Corps on that map?
12 A. That has already been done. The 4th Corps
13 covered the area exclusive of Gornji Vakuf, not
14 counting Gornji Vakuf, exclusive of Gornji Vakuf
15 (indicating). This is the zone of responsibility of
16 the 4th Corps, and over here is the zone of
17 responsibility of the 1st Corps.
18 Q. Can you mark it, please, for us?
19 A. (Marks)
20 Q. Thank you, Brigadier. You can have a seat.
21 A. I didn't quite understand your question.
23 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, would you please
24 place this back on the ELMO? Mr. Dubuisson, could the
25 map be marked as a Prosecution Exhibit?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, of course, 468.
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Now, I would like to direct your attention,
4 Brigadier, to the various brigades that are listed
5 under the mountain brigades. Let me ask you, directing
6 your attention first to the first item, 302nd br.br.ZM
7 Zenica. Are you aware that that particular brigade was
8 located in the area of 1st Corps on the 16th of April,
10 A. Could you repeat your question, please?
11 Q. Your diagram indicates that this particular
12 brigade was based in Zenica; is that correct?
13 A. The 302nd Brigade is from Visoko.
14 Q. The 302nd Brigade is from Visoko. Is that
15 what you're testifying to now?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. So the schematic is in error where it says
18 it's from Zenica?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was the brigade called the 302nd Mountain
21 Brigade or was it called the 302nd Motorised Brigade?
22 A. Let me clear this up. All light and mountain
23 brigades during the war developed into motorised
24 brigades, and the light brigades developed into
25 mountain brigades because of the personnel arriving in
1 the territory. So that either other brigades had to be
2 formed or because of their numerical strength, they
3 developed into mountain brigades which numbered 1.800
4 men to 2.200 men. So that, depending on the
5 availability of vehicles and other equipment, these
6 brigades were transformed into motorised brigades, but
7 I can't tell you exactly when each one of them were
8 transferred into motorised brigades and when the light
9 ones were transferred into mountain brigades.
10 Q. Let me direct your attention to the fourth
11 item down in that column, which is indicated as the
12 304th br.br.ZM Breza. Do you see that?
13 A. Could you repeat which one you're referring
14 to, going down the line?
15 Q. Brigadier, I'm going down the lines of the
16 fourth item, 304th Mountain Brigade Breza. Do you see
17 that? I'm referring to the mountain brigades?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. Now, was Breza located in the area of
20 responsibility of 3rd Corps or 1st Corps on December
21 1st, 1992?
22 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, it's not very
23 legible on some of the screens, so I would suggest that
24 we provide the witness with the original documents --
25 MR. HARMON: No objection.
1 MR. NOBILO: -- to read from.
2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Please proceed.
3 Let us try and speed up a little bit. Have you heard,
4 Witness, it is the fourth yellow frame referring to the
5 304th Mountain Brigade of Breza. Can you see it now,
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, I can.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Your question, Mr. Harmon?
9 MR. HARMON:
10 Q. My question was: On December the 1st, was
11 that located in the 1st Corps area of responsibility or
12 the 3rd Corps area of responsibility?
13 A. It was under the 3rd Corps area of
15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, I have a question
16 for you. I want to know where we're going. Are you
17 contesting the totality of this schematic or only some
18 aspects of it? I think that we have to be clear in
19 this debate. In that case, the Judges know that you
20 are contesting the totality of this document. If I
21 understood you well, first, you contested the source.
22 You wanted to learn from the witness where these
23 documents came from, and the witness gave you an
24 answer. Now we're going to the next stage. We are not
25 going to go at random like this, whether this brigade
1 was there or not.
2 My question is as follows: If you are
3 contesting the totality of this scheme, on the basis of
4 which document you are doing it? In other words, my
5 question is: Are you contesting the totality of the
6 document regarding certain minor contradictions, or do
7 you believe that you have something to contest
8 regarding the totality of the document? In that case,
9 you should say, "I'm going to contest such and such a
10 point and the totality." That is what I'm trying to
11 say. You can do what you wish, but please, for God's
12 sake, let's try and speed things up a little bit. Do
13 you understand what I'm trying to say? Your duty is to
14 tell the Judges, "I do not agree with such and such,
15 Travnik, 312th Brigade," and that would be a clear
16 question. Ask the witness regarding this particular
17 brigade. Let's try and speed things up a little bit,
19 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, so I can clarify
20 for Your Honours, I contest a significant number of
21 items that are described on this particular schematic.
22 The witness has presented this as the organisation and
23 formation of the 3rd Corps on the 1st of December,
24 1992. It is the Prosecutor's position that he is
25 erroneous in a significant number of particulars, and I
1 want to ask him about those particulars, one by one.
2 JUDGE JORDA: I agree. But do you, yourself,
3 have a document? If you have a document, it would be
4 much clearer. You could provide a copy to the Judges.
5 Does that mean that you don't have a document?
6 MR. HARMON: I don't at the moment,
7 Mr. President. I will have a witness.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Then I'm telling you straight
9 away that it's a pity, because today you have a
10 document presented to the Judges that you, on the basis
11 of your own sources, had another scheme to show the
12 Judges, that would be much easier, but I'm not
13 reproaching you, Mr. Harmon. It's not a reproach, but
14 that would have been simpler.
15 I would now like you to tell us, in summary
16 form, on which points you're contesting this scheme on
17 1st December, '92? Is it the mountain brigades, the
18 light brigades, Zenica, what is it?
19 MR. HARMON: I will identify them for Your
20 Honours, if you like, before I ask the witness the
22 Q. The 304th Mountain Brigade in Breza, that is,
23 item number 4, the 305th Mountain Brigade in Zenica
24 which is five from the bottom; the 27th Krajina Brigade
25 in Travnik, which is the last item; the 328th Brigade
1 ZM Zavidovici, then I'm contesting, Mr. President, the
2 schematic as it relates to the 303rd Light Brigade, the
3 323rd ZM in Kiseljak. On the right-hand side of the
4 schematic, Mr. President, I'm contesting the artillery
5 brigade, ZM Zenica. On the far right, on the top
6 layer, the mixed POAD ZM in Zenica. I want to ask him
7 a question to clarify the 7th Motorised Muslim Brigade
8 which is a little bit lower on the right. Those are
9 the items, Mr. President, that I would like to ask the
10 witness specific questions about.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, but be very specific
12 when you say you contest something, you must contest it
13 either with a document, a written order, or evidence of
14 any kind to indicate that you do not agree. Of course,
15 this is your absolute right. So let's proceed. Let's
17 MR. HARMON: All right.
18 Q. Now, I had asked you a question about the
19 304th Mountain Brigade in Breza. My question, sir, is
20 was that unit located in the area of responsibility of
21 1st Corps or 3rd Corps in December of 1992?
22 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, in order to
23 assist the Prosecution, the whole schematic of
24 organisation that I made is for the 1st of December,
25 1992, and it refers to the 3rd Corps. So all the units
1 that I have shown, except for those units that were
2 additional which are not here on the schematic, the
3 four other ones that I mentioned, but whatever is on
4 the schematic is under the responsibility of the 3rd
6 Q. Now, let me direct your attention, sir, to
7 the 305th Mountain Brigade which you indicate had a
8 headquarters in Zenica. Now, are you aware that the
9 headquarters of that particular brigade were located in
10 Bijelo Selo which is near Kakanj?
11 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, the 305th
12 Brigade, it's a brigade from Jajce, which was formed
13 from the refugees from Jajce, and it had commanding
14 posts in Zenica, Kakanj, Travnik, and even in Bugojno.
15 It did not have a permanent commanding post. Once they
16 left here, I said they formed the brigade in Zenica.
17 That's how I put it here.
18 Q. My next question, Brigadier, is the last item
19 in that column, the 27th -- I'm sorry, the Krajina
20 Brigade ZM Travnik. Are you aware that that particular
21 unit was not formed until October of 1994?
22 A. Once the 1st and the 7th Krajina Brigade were
23 joined, it was formed somewhere at the beginning of the
24 summer. But up until then, it was called the Banja
25 Luka Brigade. As I listed all the brigades by the
1 number, I put the 27th Brigade, because previously it
2 was called the Banja Luka Brigade, and it was commanded
3 by Major Rasim Imamovic. While it was called the Banja
4 Luka Brigade, it was at Mehurici, and after that, the
5 command was in Travnik.
6 Q. Directing your attention to the 328th
7 Brigade, Mountain Brigade in Zavidovici, are you aware
8 that that brigade did not exist until 1995?
9 A. I know that it existed in this time period
10 that I have shown here.
11 Q. Let me turn your attention now to the column
12 on the left, light brigades, and direct your attention
13 first to the 303rd Light Brigade ZM in Zenica. Are you
14 aware that that particular light brigade did not exist
15 at all or are you thinking of another brigade by a
16 different number?
17 A. No, no, I think of the 303rd Brigade from
19 Q. Let me turn your attention to the light
20 brigade, the 323rd Light Brigade ZM Kiseljak. Was that
21 in the area of 3rd Corps responsibility on the 1st of
22 December or the area of 3rd Corps responsibility? I'm
24 A. The 3rd Corps, yes.
25 Q. All right. Now, directing your attention to
1 the artillery brigade, very quickly, which you will see
2 on the schematic at this location. Do you see that,
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Is it your testimony that that artillery
6 brigade existed on the 1st of December, 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I have the same question in respect of the
9 mixed POAD ZM Zenica. Did that unit exist on the 1st
10 of December, 1992?
11 A. What do you think of? You mean the light
12 anti-artillery corps, yes, it was from Zenica.
13 Q. Did that exist on the 1st of December, 1992?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. I'm satisfied with this line of
16 questioning, Mr. President. Let me either pursue
17 another line, or if the Court wishes to take a break?
18 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but before we take the
19 break, I would like to draw the attention of both
20 parties to what we've just seen here. Let us make a
21 small summary. For the time being, the Judges have got
22 a schematic which a priori is based only on the
23 personal memories and notes made by the witness and
24 maybe by informal sources that were not quoted here.
25 In any case, the Prosecution had no access to them.
1 On the other hand, we the Judges, we have a
2 document which has not been disputed which comes from
3 August 1992 and which gives the areas of
4 responsibilities. I'm not speaking about brigades.
5 I'm speaking about the geographical areas of
6 responsibility which is an official document. I would
7 like to invite the parties, if we take the decision
8 from August 1992 and the schematic presented by the
9 witness, which refers to the 1st of December, 1992, and
10 if you don't seem to agree on that and if it seems that
11 there are important differences, I would like to maybe
12 invite the Prosecutor to present either maybe by
13 writing memos or in writing in what way you contest the
14 document. Because, for the time being, we have a
15 witness who has a schematic and says there was a 3rd
16 army corps which was very structured, and on the other
17 hand, the Prosecution says we would like to dispute
18 that on such and such a ground.
19 Anyway, it is almost quarter past eleven, and
20 we are now going to have a 20-minute break.
21 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.37 a.m.
23 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing
24 now. Please have the accused brought in.
25 (The accused entered court)
1 JUDGE JORDA: Let us proceed now.
2 Mr. Harmon, you are cross-examining Brigadier Zeko.
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. Brigadier Zeko, in your testimony earlier,
5 you testified at great length and gave us a number of
6 statistics of the number of soldiers in each of those
7 particular units on Exhibit 4B. Do you remember that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What did you base your calculations on?
11 A. I based them on all the gathered information
12 and on the assessments.
13 Q. Did you base your information on enrolment
14 lists, captured enrolment lists, for example, of each
15 of those units?
16 A. No.
17 Q. On pay records for each of those units?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, when you testified about the numerical
20 strength of those units, and I have reviewed your
21 testimony, you did not tell us a date or an approximate
22 date when those units had those particular strengths.
23 Are you referring, in your testimony, to the numerical
24 strengths of those units on December 1st, 1992,
25 sometime in 1993, or sometime in 1994?
1 A. During the whole period of the war, these
2 strengths would vary. Depending whether there was a
3 general mobilisation, then the number would be even
4 larger than the one I gave. But after the
5 mobilisation, obviously there were some people who were
6 not capable to go, so they had to be excluded. So
7 there were people who would not be enrolled in the
9 Q. So these numbers, essentially, commence on
10 the 1st of December and are the numbers that reflect
11 the strengths of the particular units on the 1st of
13 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this is leading
14 the witness to give an erroneous answer. The witness
15 has just answered that he couldn't give a particular
16 date because the units would vary, the strength would
17 vary, and he is not able to say that, on a particular
18 day, the strength was of a particular number. So the
19 Prosecutor tries to tell him whether it was on the 1st
20 of December, and the witness has just answered that it
21 was a fluctuating number.
22 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I've taken note of that.
23 Mr. Harmon, would you like to answer or not?
24 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I won't answer
25 that. I'll go to another question.
1 Q. Are you able, Brigadier, to give us an
2 approximate number relating to each of these particular
3 units in the 3rd Corps on the 16th of April, 1993?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, these are estimates you have given us.
6 Can you tell us, please, what percentage of error you
7 include in your estimates?
8 A. Five to ten per cent.
9 Q. Now, let me ask you a question in respect of
10 the 312th Brigade that you estimated had a strength of
11 between 3.200 and 3.400 troops. Would it be consistent
12 with your estimate, Brigadier, that in April of 1993,
13 that particular unit had approximately 2.500 troops?
14 A. First of all, I have to have a look at my
15 notes to see whether the number is 3.300. The 17th
16 Krajina Brigade, two brigades were joined, the 1st and
17 the 7th, 3.300 soldiers.
18 Q. My question is, Brigadier, in April of 1993,
19 would it be reasonable, in your opinion, if I informed
20 you that that particular unit, the 312th Brigade, had
21 approximately 2.500 troops?
22 A. Between 2.200 and 2.300, I say roughly
24 Q. Let me turn your attention to the 306th
25 Brigade where you testified that this particular
1 brigade had between 2.100 and 2.200 men.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you aware that in April of 1993, that
4 brigade had 1.320 men, approximately?
5 A. No.
6 Q. What do you have to say about that particular
7 figure? Do you think it's too low, based on your
8 estimate, or is it a reasonable figure, based on your
9 estimate, and the percentage of error that you have
10 told us are inherent in your figures?
11 A. Do you mean the number that you've just
13 Q. Yes, sir.
14 A. Yes. My estimate, I think it's correct.
15 Q. You testified also that the 17th Krajina
16 Brigade had 3.300 men. Do you remember that testimony?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we're contesting
19 the numbers, and we'll be contesting the numbers that
20 have been given by this witness, so if I can quickly go
21 through a series of numbers with this witness, with the
22 Court's indulgence, we will be able to later --
23 JUDGE JORDA: If you are contesting the
24 numbers, this is a question of method, so we shall not
25 try and lose too much time. I think that you contest
1 it because you have a number of elements at your
2 disposal, and you have to indicate those elements. You
3 have to present us documents, and the Judges will then
4 make up their own minds once they see what the
5 arguments of both sides are and their documents.
6 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I intend to
7 present the documents at a later time, I don't have
8 them at my disposal at the moment, but I need to ask
9 this witness first, to lay the foundation for those
10 documents, whether the numbers that I'm going to be
11 quoting are numbers that he would agree with or does
12 not agree with --
13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but if you bring the
14 documents later on, that means that the Defence will
15 always have to call the witness. How do you intend to
16 proceed then? Otherwise, we'll have some
17 difficulties. Anyway, we are not going to solve the
18 question now, so please proceed.
19 Let me just confer with my colleagues.
20 Yes, please go on, Mr. Harmon.
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. Brigadier, you testified that the 17th
23 Krajina Brigade had 3.300 men. My question to you is:
24 In April, were you aware that they had only 900 men?
25 A. In April when?
1 Q. April of 1993, sir.
2 A. I know what I said. I gave the estimates. I
3 was not claiming it was 3.300 men. I said it was
4 around 3.300 men, and I said the probability to make a
5 mistake is between five and ten per cent.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo?
7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I would like to
8 try and speed up our debate. On two or three
9 occasions, the witness said that he is still
10 maintaining the same figures with a five- or ten-per
11 cent margin. I think that there are enough arguments
12 for rebuttal, and I think that there's no point on
13 going from one brigade to another when he says that he
14 maintains these figures with a five- to ten-per cent
16 JUDGE JORDA: I grant this objection, but I
17 will still ask the same question to the witness.
18 Brigadier, do you maintain all your figures
19 with a five- to ten-per cent margin of error?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. President, Your
22 JUDGE JORDA: In that case, Mr. Harmon, do
23 you think that these figures, with a five- to ten-per
24 cent error margin, for example, if there are really
25 3.300 soldiers in a particular brigade, which means
1 that, to the maximum, it could be reduced by ten per
2 cent, which means 330, 350 people, which will lower the
3 figure to 2.900. If you're speaking of 900 soldiers in
4 that particular brigade, are you basing it on a
5 particular document? If you haven't got such a
6 document, you will want to produce it later on -- if
7 you haven't got a document, I was going to say it's
8 your problem, but you claim -- just as well the witness
9 is claiming it now -- and then the Judges will take a
10 decision at an appropriate moment, or else maybe there
11 are other possibilities. I think that the Tribunal,
12 also the Trial Chamber, could receive written memos in
13 that case instead of bringing the witness. I don't
15 Anyway, please proceed, Mr. Harmon.
16 MR. HARMON: I'll move to another topic,
17 Mr. President. This witness is standing by his
18 figures, and the Prosecutor, in rebuttal, will present
19 evidence to the contrary, and I think I can move on
21 Q. Let me ask you, Brigadier: The units that
22 you testified about and gave us figures about in the
23 3rd Corps area of responsibility, can you tell me, in
24 April of 1993, were those units well-equipped or poorly
1 A. My estimate is that they were well-equipped.
2 MR. HARMON: Could I please have,
3 Mr. Dubuisson, Exhibit 456/32, please? I'd like to
4 show the witness.
5 Q. Now, Brigadier Zeko, this is a special report
6 that was prepared by your commander, Colonel Blaskic,
7 on the 7th of May, 1993; is that correct?
8 A. As I can see here, it is.
9 Q. First of all, can you tell me, in respect of
10 this particular communication, what type of
11 communication this is, what form of communication this
12 is? Is this a fax? Was this something that was sent
13 by packet? Was this some other means of transmission
14 of this particular report, if you're able to tell us?
15 A. I can only say that this could have been sent
16 either by fax or by packet. I don't know whether it
17 was ever sent. This is the first time that I've seen
18 this document.
19 Q. This particular document was addressed to the
20 Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of the Croatian
21 community of Herceg-Bosna, the Head of the Defence
22 Department and the Chief of the Main Headquarters. Do
23 you see that in the addressee list?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If you turn to the last page of this
1 particular document, Brigadier, do you recognise the
2 signature of Colonel Blaskic on the last page?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, this was a defence military secret and
5 it was strictly confidential, as it appears on the
6 upper right-hand corner of this document; do you see
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. These kind of strict military secrets were
10 sent in coded form, were they not?
11 A. They should have been sent in such a form or
12 by messenger.
13 Q. On the 7th of May, 1993, the pocket was
14 surrounded, wasn't it, by the Armija?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In your opinion, is it likely that this
17 particular report was sent by courier?
18 A. I cannot claim that. It could not have been
19 sent by courier if it was a pocket.
20 Q. Now, let me direct your attention, if I can,
21 please, to that portion of this special report that
22 deals with Muslim forces. Do you see that portion I'm
23 referring to? Since I can't read the language, I can
24 only direct you. It may be Muslimanske Snage, which
25 appears on the second page of the order in BCS.
1 Perhaps Mr. Nobilo can help me if I'm correct
2 in my language, Muslimanske Snage.
3 MR. NOBILO: Yes. You've already learned
4 Croatian. On the second page, it says Muslim forces,
5 their strength, their composition.
6 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much.
7 Q. Brigadier, do you see that section I'm
8 talking about?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you go to the second paragraph, please,
11 the second paragraph under Muslim forces, where it says
12 "Structure," and could you please tell us how Colonel
13 Blaskic characterised whether or not the Muslim forces
14 were well-equipped or how they were equipped?
15 A. What I can answer is that on the basis of the
16 information that was gathered, which we sent out --
17 Q. You didn't understand my question,
18 Brigadier. My question is: How did Colonel Blaskic,
19 on May the 7th, characterise the state of equipment
20 that was available to the Muslim forces?
21 A. Well, the situation as it was.
22 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the witness did
23 not see this document before, and he obviously does not
24 know what he has to read. What I propose is that
25 either my colleague read it or maybe I can read it out,
1 and after that, the comments should be made, because
2 obviously they cannot agree on what the witness has to
4 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Just a moment. I think
5 that the question was not very well put. I suppose,
6 Mr. Harmon, as this is a document signed by the accused
7 Colonel Blaskic at the time, the estimate of the
8 strength of the Muslim forces, you want the second
9 paragraph starting with "Muslim forces." Do you agree
10 with me that's the paragraph, which says "The
11 structures are" --
12 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE JORDA: In that case, I think it would
14 be much simpler to ask you to simply turn to the
15 witness and say: Under what Colonel Blaskic has
16 signed, it seems that the Muslim forces were relatively
17 poorly equipped.
18 As for Mr. Nobilo, I've noted your
19 observation, but I think that it is not too complex for
20 the witness to answer on that particular point. But in
21 case the witness needs a bit more time to read the
22 document, we will give it to him, but I think that for
23 the time being, it is not the case.
24 Now I'm going to ask the question. On page
25 2, starting with "Muslim forces," can you find it in
1 your document? I have got it in French. I've received
2 it from the registrar. When it says, "Mostly infantry
3 units were relatively poorly equipped."
4 Is this your question, Mr. Harmon?
5 MR. HARMON: It is, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE JORDA: What do you think of that,
7 Mr. Nobilo? Maybe you want to make another comment.
8 MR. NOBILO: Let me just add something to
9 it. I'm afraid of asking such questions to people who
10 have no experience in court because I insist that he
11 should read the complete sentence. If we simply say
12 that the units were poorly equipped, it is not enough.
13 The witness has to read the whole, the whole sentence
14 which gives the context.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I agree. I did not want
16 to just leave out half of the sentence. I simply
17 wanted to point out the sentence, which is not a very
18 long one.
19 Please, Brigadier, read this sentence which,
20 in French, starts with "Structure:" In French, it's
21 exactly four lines, and once you have finish reading,
22 please tell us. I think that the interpreters do not
23 have the text. In that case, I will read it:
24 "Structure: Mostly infantry units, poorly equipped,
25 essentially without military uniforms, dressed in
1 civilian clothes only, the battalion commanders having
2 complete uniforms, which explains why civilians are
3 being killed. There are many," and so on. Everybody
4 has read it. What do you think of it? This is your
5 question, Mr. Harmon.
6 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, when you read
7 the whole sentence, then you see what the assertion is,
8 because I didn't make any assessment of the clothing
9 worn. I just said they were equipped. Here it says
10 with automatic weapons, snipers, and so on. So I stick
11 to my assertion that they were, after all,
13 MR. HARMON:
14 Q. All right. Let me ask you then, Brigadier:
15 What percentage of the men in the brigades, and you've
16 given us a large number of numbers, had arms available
17 to them, infantry arms available to them? Do you know?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, in respect of the Bosnian Serb army, was
20 the Armija better equipped than the Bosnian Serb army
21 or less well-equipped, in your assessment?
22 A. Less well-equipped. The army of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina was not equipped as well as the
24 Bosnian Serb army.
25 Q. Is it fair to say, Brigadier Zeko, that the
1 Armija in Central Bosnia and, in fact, throughout
2 Bosnia, had no direct resupply lines, except those
3 resupply lines that came through HVO-held territory?
4 A. Could you please repeat your question just
5 once again?
6 Q. Yes. In 1993, did the Armija forces in
7 Bosnia have any direct resupply lines, except through
8 the territory held by the HVO?
9 A. I don't know whether they had other supply
11 MR. HARMON: Now, could I have number 12
12 placed on the ELMO, please, Mr. Dubuisson, the small
13 item showing the Serb confrontation lines?
14 Q. Brigadier, can you see that on your monitor,
15 number 12?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Does number 12 show the confrontation lines
18 with the Serbs in the area of 3rd Corps?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, the Serbs, the Bosnian Serb army, was
21 one that was extremely aggressive, was it not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In fact, the Bosnian Serb army had conquered
24 a fair amount of the territory in Bosnia in 1993?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. They were, in fact, continuing to press their
2 operations in toward the area of 3rd Corps in 1993,
3 were they not?
4 A. At the beginning of the conflict between the
5 Croats, those battles ceased. There was just the
6 confrontation line between the Bosnian Serb army and
7 the BH army.
8 Q. In 1993, the Bosnian Serb army was continuing
9 its murderous siege on Sarajevo, were they not?
10 A. Yes. I'm speaking about the 3rd Corps forces
11 and the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia. I'm
12 referring to those units of the army of
14 Q. I understand, Brigadier. I broadened my
15 question. At the same time in 1993, the Bosnian Serb
16 army was attacking the enclaves of Zepa, Gorazde,
17 Srebrenica, and other locations, posing a serious
18 threat to the Bosnian Muslim population; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You're aware, are you not, that in 1993,
22 prior to April, a large number of the soldiers that
23 were attached to the units which you have identified in
24 Defence Exhibit 4A showing these various brigades,
25 you're aware that a large number of those soldiers in
1 each of those units held positions at front-line
2 positions against the Serbs, did they not?
3 A. All those soldiers were not on the frontlines
4 against the Serbs.
5 Q. Can you please tell us, Brigadier, using
6 Exhibit 12, where the Bosnian Muslim forces were
7 deployed along that front-line?
8 A. They are shown on this map --
9 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, could the
10 question be specified with a date? When? What period
11 are we talking about when talking about the presence of
12 the BH army on the front-line against the Serbs, because
13 I think this is important.
14 MR. HARMON: Let me ask the question slightly
16 Q. Did the Bosnian Muslim forces along the
17 front-line against the Bosnian Serb forces abandon those
18 lines in April of 1993?
19 A. They did not abandon those lines, but they
20 just held the existing frontlines.
21 Q. Can you tell us, please, Brigadier, in 1993,
22 where the Bosnian Serbs attacked the front-line
23 positions held by the Muslims in the 3rd Corps area of
25 JUDGE JORDA: Will you indicate the period,
1 Mr. Harmon, please?
2 MR. HARMON: 1993, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but at what point in time
4 in 1993? Mr. Nobilo has just asked you that.
5 MR. HARMON: Between April and June of 1993
6 would be my first question, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.
8 A. There were no offensive operations by the
9 Bosnian Serb army in that period. The frontlines were
10 stagnant at the time.
11 MR. HARMON:
12 Q. So if I understand your testimony correctly,
13 the front-line position indicated on number 12, that's
14 in front of you, there was no Bosnian Serb activity
15 directed toward Muslim-held positions in the period of
16 time that I've just indicated?
17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, I don't understand
18 now. You're asking a question about April 1993, and
19 the map we have in front of us is dated May '92 to
20 April 1993. We have to be very precise. Either we're
21 referring to a map or we're not referring to a map.
22 That is what I don't understand.
23 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, can I --
24 JUDGE JORDA: You've asked a question about
25 April to June '93, and you're asking the witness to
1 answer with the help of a map which is dated for the
2 period of May 1993. So will you please be more
4 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I understood the
5 witness's testimony to say that these confrontation
6 lines did not move at all in 1993 and, therefore, these
7 confrontation lines are accurate representations of the
8 whole year of 1993.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Do you agree, Brigadier, with
11 A. In the period indicated, that is, until April
12 1993 -- 4.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Continue, Mr. Harmon.
14 MR. HARMON:
15 Q. In April of 1993 until the end of 1993,
16 Brigadier, did the front-line positions between the
17 Bosnian Serbs and the Bosnian Muslims move?
18 A. As far as I know, they did not.
19 Q. You are unable to tell us where, from April
20 of 1993 until the end of 1993, the units that you have
21 identified in 4A were deployed along those lines; is
22 that correct?
23 A. That depended on the decisions of the corps
24 commander. Parts of all units could have been engaged,
25 but according to certain logic, parts of the 312th and
1 the 306th may have been engaged with regard to the zone
2 of responsibility facing the 1st Corps area of
4 Q. Did I understand your testimony yesterday,
5 Brigadier, that 82.000 soldiers of the Armija came down
6 and confronted the 8.200 soldiers in the pockets of
7 Kiseljak pocket and the Busovaca-Vitez pocket?
8 A. I presented my assessment, that in the 3rd
9 Corps zone of responsibility, the 3rd Corps had at its
10 disposal this number of troops, and that the Operative
11 Zone of Central Bosnia had the number of troops I
12 indicated. They couldn't have all clashed at the same
13 time. These were units that were being used in this
14 area, and that was their numerical strength.
15 MR. HARMON: Could we go to number 10,
16 Mr. Dubuisson, of the small items?
17 Q. Do you have that in front of you, Brigadier?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On the 17th of April, your commander, Colonel
20 Blaskic, ordered that HVO forces attack Gomionica and
21 Svinjarevo on the morning of the 18th of April. My
22 question, sir, is: Does this particular exhibit,
23 Exhibit 10, show the deployment of the attacking HVO
24 forces against those particular objectives?
25 A. On this exhibit, what you are talking about,
1 that is not shown, nor am I aware of this command that
2 you're referring to.
3 Q. Would it surprise you to learn that Colonel
4 Blaskic ordered an attack on Gomionica on the 17th of
5 April, 1993?
6 A. I can't answer that question, really.
7 Q. You were the head of intelligence.
8 A. Yes, but I wasn't in a position to know
9 whether orders were written and where they were
11 Q. I take it that you had no notes on that
12 particular order when you prepared this particular
14 A. No.
15 MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecutor's
16 Exhibit 457/22 -- 456/22. I'm sorry.
17 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President?
18 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo?
19 MR. NOBILO: I should like to draw attention
20 to a point. This witness testified to the positions of
21 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In the
22 examination-in-chief, this witness did not comment on
23 the orders of General Blaskic, which he was not
24 familiar with. But if we are limiting our questions to
25 the examination-in-chief, we have no objections, but I
1 think that this witness is not there to answer on the
2 activities of the HVO.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Please do not go outside
4 the examination-in-chief. This is in accordance with
5 the Rules. Ask your question, and then we will see
6 whether there is a reason to annul it.
7 MR. HARMON: My only question relates to this
8 particular exhibit that was tendered by the Defence
9 that talks about the deployment of the forces from May
10 through April of 1993. Unless I'm wrong,
11 Mr. President, there is no showing of the deployment of
12 the HVO forces at a time that is relevant for this
13 particular schematic.
14 JUDGE JORDA: May 1992 or May 1993? The
15 document is dated May 1992.
16 MR. HARMON: To April of 1993, according to
17 the document that I have, sir.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, quite. What is your
19 question, so that we can see whether it fits within the
20 scope of the direct examination.
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. Brigadier, do you see the order in front of
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us, did you see that order at
1 the time you were preparing this particular exhibit?
2 A. No. No, I see it for the first time.
3 JUDGE JORDA: The witness has answered your
5 MR. HARMON: Thank you. I have no additional
6 questions in respect of that exhibit.
7 Let me turn to number 12, again, if I could
8 have that placed on the ELMO, please? I'm sorry.
9 Could we have this particular map placed on the easel?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Regarding this map, it is
11 Exhibit 469.
12 MR. HARMON:
13 Q. Brigadier, do you also have document 12 in
14 front of you, which is this small diagram?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Could the usher please furnish number 12 to
17 the witness? Brigadier, number 12 shows the locations
18 of two artillery positions where artillery could hit
19 the town of Zenica. Would you please approach the map
20 that is to your left, and would you please mark the
21 site of those particular artillery positions around the
22 Vlasic Plateau?
23 A. Yes. (Marks)
24 Q. Brigadier, would you kindly connect the
25 artillery positions, which you've marked, with this
1 location that is marked with a small red dot? Here's a
2 pen. Draw a straight line between those two points.
3 A. (Marks)
4 Q. Brigadier, are you able to give a grid
5 bearing on each of those lines?
6 A. What?
7 THE INTERPRETER: The witness hasn't heard.
8 MR. HARMON:
9 Q. Are you able to give us a grid bearing on --
10 A. No, no. I can't tell you what the grid
11 reference points are. I've indicated the region of
12 Humandzica Voda (phoen) and the region of Mejokrnje
13 (phoen), the village of Zidzici (phoen). These were
14 155 calibre medium sized artillery pieces, and these
15 are also medium sized weapons, which could have been
16 positioned to the left or to the right, forward or
17 backwards, and the positions I have indicated in
19 Q. What is the distance, if you're able to give
20 us a rough distance, between this location and Zenica?
21 MR. HAYMAN: For the record, could we have
22 the location specified? It's not clear in the record
23 which point Mr. Harmon is pointing to.
24 MR. HARMON: I'm pointing to the lowest of
25 the two lines connecting one artillery position to
2 Q. What is the approximate distance?
3 A. Roughly 23 or 24 kilometres.
4 Q. I'm writing "23 to 24 kilometres" there.
5 What is the approximate distance between the artillery
6 position in the middle of the diagram going down to the
7 Zenica location?
8 A. I said to the area of Zenica municipality. I
9 didn't say this particular spot. I said the
10 municipality of Zenica. That is one thing. The
11 distance is roughly 24 kilometres, 25, to the
12 municipality of Zenica.
13 Q. For the record, I've written "24 to 25
14 kilometres" to the municipality of Zenica on this
16 Two last questions: What type of artillery
17 pieces, Brigadier, did the Serbs have at the location
18 which I am marking with the letter "A"?
19 A. 150.
20 Q. What type of artillery pieces did the Serbs
21 have at the location that --
22 A. In the region of Bijelo Buce, 155 millimetre
23 and 130 millimetre calibre. At this location, 155
25 Q. At either location "A" or location "B" in
1 April of 1993, did they have a 122-millimetre piece?
2 A. I do not have information that they had such
3 pieces of 122 millimetres at that time.
4 Q. Now, let me ask you on another topic,
5 Brigadier, how did the HVO, from April of 1993 until
6 the end of the conflict, resupply itself with arms and
8 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, objection. This
9 is outside of the scope of the examination-in-chief,
10 completely outside of it.
11 JUDGE JORDA: What were your intentions,
12 Mr. Harmon, because it seems that this does go outside
13 of the scope.
14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the witness has
15 testified that these two pockets were, essentially,
16 hermetically sealed, and I wish to contest that. He
17 has presented exhibits showing the Bosnian Muslim army
18 surrounding the pockets for a considerable period of
20 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. All right. Continue with
21 your questions.
22 MR. HARMON:
23 Q. My question, Brigadier, was, from April of
24 1993 until the end of the conflict, how did the HVO
25 resupply itself with ammunition?
1 A. Somewhere in midsummer or up until the
2 beginning of autumn, there were no supplies in 1993.
3 Towards the beginning of autumn, it was done by air, by
4 helicopters coming from Herzegovina. That is the way
5 the supplies were brought in.
6 Q. Where was the Central Bosnia main supply base
7 before April of 1993? Was it in Sebacic?
8 A. No. That was also at Grude, Posusje. Down
9 there was the main centre of supply for Central Bosnia.
10 Q. Did the HVO resupply itself by ground, on the
11 ground, over land, from its logistical base of support
12 in Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes, up until the beginning of the conflict.
14 Later on, the roads were cut off, and I don't think
15 there was any ground resupplying. I said at what time
16 we started resupplying by air.
17 Q. On the 26th of April, ammunition was in
18 critical supply -- I'm sorry. The HVO was in critical
19 need of ammunition in April of 1993 after the conflict
20 had started; isn't that right?
21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I am sorry to
22 have to interrupt, but we're really now going into the
23 details of what was the strength of ammunition on the
24 26th. I think this is completely outside of the scope
25 and, in such a way, we are losing time. Very soon, we
1 will call a witness who will speak about that, but if
2 we ask all the questions to every witness, we will lose
3 too much time. But we are going to call a witness that
4 will speak precisely about those things.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. We've accepted the first
6 question in as much as the witness gave us the position
7 about the pockets in which the HVO found itself
8 surrounded by the Bosnian army, but now I think that
9 this is going too far, so the objection is granted.
10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I ask some
11 questions in respect of the helicopter flights that the
12 witness has identified?
13 JUDGE JORDA: No, no. I think that this is
14 going to be tackled in a different form, because the
15 Defence just told us about that.
16 Have you finished, Mr. Harmon?
17 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President. I would now
18 like to now ask the witness some additional questions.
19 Q. Specifically, Brigadier, the HVO took over a
20 number of JNA barracks in 1992, did they not? For
21 example, let me give you some examples. Did the HVO
22 take over the barracks at Slimena, and you may have to
23 pardon my pronunciation, Slimena?
24 MR. NOBILO: Slimena.
25 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much.
1 A. What area are you speaking of and what date?
2 I do not understand.
3 Q. Are you familiar with a JNA barracks at
4 Slimena in Central Bosnia?
5 A. Slimena, no, it's not a barracks. That was a
6 warehouse of the Territorial Defence of the army of
8 Q. Okay. Did the HVO take over the JNA barracks
9 at Kaonik?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did the HVO take over the JNA barracks in
12 Busovaca known as the Draga barracks?
13 MR. NOBILO: The same objection. I'm sorry,
14 Mr. President, but we are going outside of the scope of
15 the examination-in-chief.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I've heard that, and I
17 knew you would be saying so. I wanted, simply, that
18 Mr. Harmon continues with his question. Just please
19 put a straight question, Mr. Harmon. Do you think that
20 you want to ask the witness whether these barracks were
21 taken over by the HVO, so ask your question, and the
22 witness will answer, but go straight into the question,
23 and then we will see whether we will accept your
24 question or not.
25 MR. HARMON:
1 Q. Now, I'm going to identify for you,
2 Brigadier, some other locations that I think the JNA
3 took over, and I'd like you to just affirmatively say
4 yes or no and then I'm going to ask you some questions
5 about that. Did they take over the JNA barracks in
7 MR. HAYMAN: I think there was an error in
8 the question, Mr. President. The JNA didn't need to
9 take over the JNA barracks. The JNA had their own
10 barracks. I think counsel meant the HVO.
11 MR. HARMON: Well, I have been corrected.
12 Thank you, kindly.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, please don't answer
14 instead of the witness. Let us bring some order into
16 Mr. Harmon, what is your aim now with these
17 questions? Are you trying to show that the HVO took
18 over some barracks? What do you want to prove by
20 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, this witness
21 testified yesterday, first of all, about the seizure by
22 the Armija of various critical facilities in Central
23 Bosnia. Among those facilities were the facilities
24 that dealt with production of weapons. They also took
25 over additional facilities, which I'm trying to get
1 this witness to acknowledge they did before I can get
2 into a series of questions I'd like to ask him about
3 those take-overs. I don't intend to belabour the point,
4 but I need to establish, as a predicate, that the HVO
5 took over these facilities.
6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, and that is
7 precisely what I am claiming is outside of the scope of
8 the examination-in-chief. If my colleague had asked
9 questions about the manufacturing of weapons and the
10 factories that manufacture weapons, that would be all
11 right, but he's speaking of a different thing.
12 JUDGE JORDA: I don't agree. I said to
13 Mr. Harmon that his question was not direct enough. He
14 explained to us what he was trying to pursue, and I
15 think that this is completely consistent with the way
16 he is working, and I think that he, as a Prosecutor,
17 has the right to ask such a question. Let us now go
18 back to it.
19 Brigadier, have you understood? This is
20 precisely what you mentioned yesterday when you spoke
21 about the Bosnian army who wanted to get hold of some
22 strategic facilities for its supplying. But did the
23 HVO take over some of these facilities or not? Please
24 let's go straight to the point. "Yes" or "no," did the
25 HVO take over all these barracks?
1 Now, just give a list. Don't ask a series of
2 questions, just give a list, Mr. Harmon.
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. The last location I was interested in asking
5 him about was the JNA military barracks at Stojkovici?
6 A. I do not know that barracks. I don't know.
7 Q. I will come back to that, because it may be a
8 question of my pronunciation. Let me ask you then,
9 Brigadier, at each of these locations that I have
10 identified, did the HVO seize equipment that had
11 belonged to the JNA?
12 A. These facilities were taken over at the time
13 when the HVO and the Armija were together, so they took
14 them over together at the same time.
15 Q. Did they --
16 A. But I cannot tell you about the equipment,
17 who took how much from those facilities.
18 Q. Now, yesterday you mentioned the TRZ facility
19 in Travnik. Could you tell the Court, with a little
20 more detail, what the TRZ facility was?
21 A. This was a technical maintenance institute
22 where complete maintenance was done for all the command
23 vehicles, all the signalling vehicles, and also for
24 some other equipment for signalling, radios, the 33 up
25 until the RU-515, 312, and the 12-K one and so on.
1 Mainly, it was the signalling equipment.
2 Q. It was communications equipment; correct?
3 A. Yes, for communications.
4 Q. Now, the HVO took that facility over, did
5 they not? The Armija did not assist in the take-over of
6 that facility, did they?
7 A. At the same time, they were together, the TO
8 and the HVO. They were together in the barracks for
9 awhile, too. The technical and maintenance institute,
10 the HVO never took over. The barracks and the
11 maintenance institute are two separate facilities.
12 Q. Did the HVO receive any of the communications
13 equipment from that particular facility?
14 A. As far as I know, no.
15 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, could I have the
16 following exhibit as the next Prosecution Exhibit in
18 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
19 Exhibit 470 and 470A for the English translation.
20 MR. HARMON:
21 Q. Brigadier, you have the document in front of
22 you. Would you turn to the Croatian version of that
23 document, and would you take a look at the signature on
24 the last page of that document? Do you recognise that
25 signature as belonging to Colonel Blaskic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, the date of this document is the 13th of
3 October, 1992, if you look in the upper left-hand
4 corner, and this document is directed to the commander
5 of the Travnik municipal headquarters; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to the
8 first paragraph of that. Could you read that to
9 yourself? I would like to ask you some questions about
10 that in just a moment. Read the first paragraph.
11 Have you had time to read that document,
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Yesterday, you testified that the HVO did not
15 receive a single vehicle from the TRZ factory in
16 Travnik. Do you remember that testimony?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. This particular document signed by Colonel
19 Blaskic was directed to the commander of the Travnik
20 municipal headquarters. Isn't that where you worked?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Let me ask you, this particular document, in
23 the first paragraph, cites two decrees which,
24 essentially, decree that all property of the former JNA
25 on the territory of Herceg-Bosna are transferred to
1 Herceg-Bosna, does it not?
2 A. Yes. We can see it in this document.
3 Q. In your opinion, was the TRZ factory that is
4 referred to in this document on the territory of
6 A. I cannot give you a clear answer, whether it
7 was or it wasn't.
8 Q. In fact, Brigadier, all of the property that
9 was in that particular factory, the TRZ factory, as of
10 the 13th of April, 1992, was under the control of the
12 A. On the 13th of April, 1992?
13 Q. I made a mistake, Brigadier. I meant the
14 13th of October.
15 A. No. I don't remember this document. I've
16 never seen this.
17 Q. Isn't this a document where Colonel Blaskic
18 reprimands the commander of the Travnik municipal
19 headquarters that materiel is being removed from HVO
21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, again, I think
22 that this is a misleading question. The question was,
23 doesn't this document show that materiel is taken from
24 HVO units to the BH army, but once you have read the
25 whole document, the title says the relations towards
1 common property and property that was at TRZ --
2 JUDGE JORDA: You are going to speak about
3 this, Mr. Nobilo, during your re-examination.
4 Mr. Harmon, you can finish now on this
5 particular point. Have you done so?
6 MR. HARMON: Let me ask one final question.
7 Q. Brigadier, doesn't this document indicate
8 that this communications equipment and materiel was in
9 the possession of the HVO?
10 A. Out of the title, we can see that this was
11 joint property and equipment.
12 Q. So when you testified yesterday that the HVO
13 did not receive a single vehicle, you were mistaken; is
14 that correct?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Brigadier, you can
17 elaborate your answer. You can say more than either
18 "yes" or "no." Maybe I did not hear you quite well.
19 Was your answer "no"? The question was whether you
20 made a mistake. You cannot, on the one hand, say that
21 you either agree or do not agree with the Prosecutor,
22 you have to give your answers, but if you say "no," you
23 have to say why not.
24 Mr. Harmon, I'm asking for your opinion.
25 This document shows that the HVO received the materiel
1 from the TRZ factory.
2 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Mr. President.
3 It also shows that some of that equipment was taken
4 from HVO members, and that is the gravamen of the
5 warning issued by Colonel Blaskic.
6 MR. HAYMAN: If we're going to argue,
7 Mr. President --
8 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment. I'm going to
9 pursue my question, because I cannot be satisfied with
10 this answer.
11 Mr. Harmon, what was your question to the
12 witness? You asked him whether he made a mistake
13 yesterday by saying the contrary.
14 MR. HARMON: That's what I asked him,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE JORDA: What is your answer, Brigadier?
17 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, the answer is
18 that the HVO did not receive any communications
19 equipment from the TRZ factory, because we can see in
20 this document that that was joint property, joint
22 JUDGE JORDA: You have no other explanation
23 to give?
24 A. No, I don't, because I did not see any such
25 equipment in our units.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Because you did not personally
2 see it.
3 Now we have an objection by Mr. Hayman. Is
4 your objection still valid now at this point?
5 MR. HAYMAN: Simply to point out, my learned
6 friend has suggested that this document shows
7 appropriation of property by the HVO. The items listed
8 being complained were appropriated by the BH army,
9 whereas they should have been left under joint control
10 which, apparently, had been the agreement concerning
11 these materials. I simply wanted to make that
12 comment. Thank you.
13 JUDGE JORDA: I leave you the responsibility
14 to give your own assessment. Have you finished on this
15 particular point, Mr. Harmon? Have you got any other
16 questions for the witness within the
18 MR. HARMON: I do, Mr. President, but I see
19 it's 1.00.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, you're right. We are
21 going to have a recess now, and we will continue at
23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.
2 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Please
3 have the accused brought in.
4 (The accused entered court)
5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?
6 MR. HARMON: Thank you. Good afternoon,
7 Mr. President, Your Honours, and Counsel.
8 Q. Brigadier Zeko, this morning when we were
9 using the particular map and you drew the artillery
10 positions, you drew a line from the respective
11 artillery positions at points "A" and "B" to a location
12 in Zenica. You testified in your examination when you
13 gave a distance, that the distance you gave was to the
14 Zenica municipality lines. Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please take the blue pen that's in
17 front of you to your right, and would you draw the
18 Zenica municipality lines, to the best of your ability,
19 where it intersects those two red lines?
20 A. The municipality of Zenica is a broad term.
21 It includes many villages around the town, the whole
22 territory of Zenica municipality. I said that the
23 range went as far as Zenica municipality. I didn't
24 mention the coordinates or the specific points you
25 asked for.
1 Q. I understand that. I understood your
2 testimony this morning, Brigadier, to be that the
3 distance that you gave was a distance not to the point
4 which is at the bottom of the diagram, "X," but
5 somewhere short of that point, that is, the
6 municipality lines in Zenica. Did I misunderstand your
8 A. No, not the limits, but the territory of
9 Zenica municipality. If you want me to indicate
10 exactly the place in Zenica municipality, that is
11 something I ...
12 Q. I didn't get a complete answer, "something I"
13 and --
14 A. You told me the borders of Zenica
15 municipality. I told you the territory of Zenica
16 municipality, the area which may be halfway into the
17 municipality, a part of the municipality, certain
18 locations within the municipality. I did not mention
19 any specific coordinates as to the exact range.
20 MR. HARMON: I'll go to another area,
21 Mr. President. Could I have the assistance of the
22 usher, please? That would be the Prosecutor's next in
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 471, 471A for the
25 French version, and 471B for the English version.
1 MR. HARMON:
2 Q. All right. First of all, let me direct your
3 attention, Brigadier Zeko, to the one-page document
4 that is in your language. Do you have that in front of
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This appears to be an order from Colonel
8 Blaskic; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell the Judges what type of
11 communication this was? Was this via a fax or was this
12 via a packet or was this via some other kind of
14 A. It may have been by fax or ...
15 Q. Do you know where this document originated
16 from, which municipality?
17 A. No.
18 Q. This is marked "Defence Military Secret" in
19 the upper right-hand corner; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, would you turn to paragraph number 9?
22 Do you see your name in paragraph number 9?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you remember attending that particular
25 meeting that was held at U.N. headquarters in Vitez?
1 A. It is stated here at the U.N. base, not at
2 the U.N. command.
3 Q. Do you remember attending that meeting?
4 A. I cannot remember, but probably I did.
5 MR. HARMON: Could I have the assistance of
6 the usher in marking the next exhibit, please?
7 Mr. President, this comes in French
8 translation, with an English translation as well.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 472, 472A for the
10 French version, 472B for the English version.
11 MR. HARMON:
12 Q. Brigadier, do you have a copy in your own
13 language in front of you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This is a report that was issued on the 30th
16 of January, 1993 at 2015 hours, and it was addressed to
17 Colonel Blaskic in Kiseljak; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This is marked "Defence Military Secret
20 Strictly Confidential" on the right-hand side; do you
21 see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell the Judges what type of
24 communication this was? Was this by a fax? Was this
25 by another system of communication, or are you able to
2 A. No. It could have been any type of
3 communication, by fax or something else, but what it
4 was exactly, I can't tell you because I don't know.
5 Q. Now, in January 1993, there was fighting in
6 Busovaca, was there not?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. This message was sent from the Vitez forward
9 command post to Kiseljak; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. First of all, where was the Vitez forward
12 command post?
13 A. In the Vitez Hotel.
14 Q. In your opinion, Brigadier, this defence
15 military secret that was strictly confidential, was
16 this encrypted when it was sent?
17 A. Not necessarily. It need not necessarily
18 have been encrypted.
19 Q. So there were some times when you didn't
20 encrypt military secrets that passed through hostile
21 territory; is that your testimony?
22 A. No, because this document, I didn't send it,
23 nor can I claim what method was used in sending the
24 document, how it was sent.
25 Q. Having seen this document, do you remember
1 the document? Do you remember the meeting at all?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Let me ask you one question in respect of
4 this particular document. Do you recognise the
5 signature at the bottom of the document?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Whose signature is that?
8 A. The chief of staff of the headquarters,
9 Franjo Nakic.
10 Q. That particular meeting, as you recall, dealt
11 with the events that were occurring in and around
12 Busovaca, did it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The people who attended that meeting are
15 identified on the first page of that document. They
16 include Mr. Stewart, Mr. Flemming, and other
17 representatives described on the first page?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Please, Mr. Harmon, can we
20 speed up a little bit with your questions?
21 MR. HARMON: Yes. I'm finished with this.
22 JUDGE JORDA: There's no point in asking the
23 witness whether the names of the participants are
24 indicated. We can all see that. Please proceed to the
25 question that you're targeting.
1 MR. HARMON: I've concluded with that
2 particular document, Mr. President.
3 MR. HAYMAN: While counsel is finding his
4 next document, Mr. President, I would just like to put
5 on the record the position of the Defence, that this is
6 a document, Exhibit 472, we've never been given before,
7 and it is exculpatory in two respects. One, in it, the
8 chief of staff of the HVO is recommending that the HVO
9 urgently seek a cease-fire, even though, in the prior
10 six days, the HVO had lost a very large and strategic
11 swath of territory.
12 Secondly, this document indicates that
13 Colonel Blaskic was not at these negotiations because
14 he was cut-off in the Kiseljak enclave, as the Defence
15 has been suggesting to this Court for some time. Thank
17 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm more than
18 happy to address the issue of whether this document is
19 exculpatory. I would rather do that at a later time,
20 rather than take up the time of the Court. I will
21 prepare and proceed with my next exhibit, if I can,
22 Mr. President.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Continue. Mr. Hayman's
24 observations have been entered in the transcript.
25 MR. HARMON:
1 Q. I would like now, Brigadier, to go over some
2 of the exhibits that you identified yesterday, Defence
3 Exhibits, and I would like to start with Exhibit 185.
4 I'd like to direct your attention, please, to
5 the first paragraph with the number 1 in front of it
6 and recall your testimony from yesterday, Brigadier.
7 Brigadier, yesterday you testified that this
8 particular document was, and I quote -- I'm sorry. You
9 characterised this particular document, and I don't
10 have a page reference, that the army of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina, which, at that time, was the Territorial
12 Defence, was to continue collecting information about
13 the HVO which has already called aggressors and to
14 commit their units to reinforce action.
15 My question to you, based on the English
16 translation that I have received from the Defence,
17 refers to the units of the HVO, in the first paragraph,
18 and activities of the aggressor. It seems to make a
19 separation between the aggressor and units of the HVO.
20 Do you see that in your document at the end of
21 paragraph 1?
22 A. I see it, but the HVO is being placed
23 together with the aggressor, because information is
24 being collected about both.
25 Q. I see. I just wanted to clarify that point.
1 The aggressor in 185 refers to the Serbs, not to the
2 HVO; is that correct?
3 A. I said exactly as it says: "Collecting
4 information about the activities of the aggressor and
5 the activities of the HVO," which means both, and it
6 means placing them on a footing of equality.
7 Q. That's not exactly how you testified
9 MR. HARMON: Now let me turn, if I could, to
10 186. Mr. Dubuisson, if you could make that exhibit
11 available to the Brigadier, I'd appreciate it.
12 Q. Brigadier, would you tell me, please, what,
13 in your opinion, this particular document represents?
14 A. It represents a memo of one of the
15 commanders, in this case, Enes Varupa.
16 Q. In what time period does this document
18 A. The first date that appears is the 17th of
19 February, 1992 until it reached me, until the document
20 was received.
21 Q. There's also another date on this document of
22 April 11th, 1992, is there not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, to put this into context, in April of
25 1992, could you tell me what the Bosnian Serbs were
1 doing in respect of attacks on the Busovaca, Vitez, and
2 Kiseljak municipalities?
3 A. In that time period, mostly artillery actions
4 were engaged in and air raids, air attacks.
5 Q. They were waging war against the Bosnian
6 Croats and the Bosnian Muslims in Central Bosnia,
7 weren't they?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. It was imperative, was it not, that both the
10 Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims organise
11 themselves to resist the aggressor?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, yesterday you testified about page 5 of
14 that document. I'm sorry, Brigadier. I don't have a
15 document that is paginated, but I can tell you the page
16 I'm referring to is the page that starts with
17 "Preocica," and it then lists a series of numbers next
18 to the various locales, Bukve, Bila Ceta, Kruscica.
19 Do you see what counsel, yesterday, referred
20 to as page 5?
21 JUDGE JORDA: Is it the list ending with
22 "Sivrino Selo"? Perhaps we could put it on the ELMO.
23 MR. HARMON: That might be helpful.
24 JUDGE JORDA: It would be clearer. We must
25 bear in mind that the hearings are being held in
2 Thank you, Mr. Hayman.
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. Now, this particular page, you testified
5 yesterday, was the number of soldiers that were located
6 in these particular locations. Do you remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, I would like to turn your attention to
9 one of the pages that was not translated, nor presented
10 to the Court, and it is the page, Brigadier, that has
11 the caption of "Bukve" on the top.
12 JUDGE JORDA: Two pages later, I think. Am I
13 right? After the one we've seen, there are two more,
14 and then we come to this one; is that right? No, one
15 more, actually. Am I right, Mr. Harmon?
16 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, this was not
17 given to me in any particular order, so I'm having some
18 difficulty in organising this. I can only identify by
19 the name at the top of the page which page I'm
20 referring to.
21 JUDGE JORDA: I see. Mr. Hayman is coming to
22 the help of the Prosecution, the page beginning with
23 "Bukve" and ending with "Veceriska"; is that the one?
24 MR. HARMON: Yes.
25 Q. Brigadier, does this particular page identify
1 the type of weapons and equipment that are available in
3 A. This is just a part of the vehicles and means
5 Q. Is there another part of this document that
6 describes other weapons and other vehicles that are
7 available in Bukve?
8 A. I do not have any other part of the document.
9 Q. Fine. Then I'm limiting my questions to this
10 particular page, Brigadier. Would you please read the
11 kind of weapons that are available in Bukve?
12 A. Two semi-automatic rifles; 18 or 12, it's
13 hard to read, shotguns; 14 pistols, 15, whether this is
14 autos or automatic rifles, I don't know. Then, one
15 freight vehicle, two tam trucks, five tractors, two
16 carts, five horses and motorcycles.
17 Q. Let me turn your attention then to Sadovace,
18 the page that lists the equipment available in
20 A. Sadovace?
21 Q. Please tell the Court what kind of weapons
22 and equipment are available in Sadovace, according to
23 this particular document that has been entered into
25 A. Yes. According to this document, there were
1 eight pistols, three hunting rifles, a radio
2 transmitter, RM without the number being indicated, six
3 automobiles, and one semi-automatic rifle, passenger
4 vehicles, 15; freight vehicle, one; tractors, four;
5 carts, two; and motorcycles, one.
6 Q. Now, again, the village of Gacice appears on
7 the top of one of these pages from this diary. Tell
8 the Court what kind of weapons were available in Gacice
9 and what kind of equipment was available in Gacice?
10 A. I'll read from the document. One machine
11 gun, RSRM, which means a radio transmitter, an
12 automatic pistol, one; three semi-automatic rifles, six
13 carbines, eight hunting rifles, ten pistols. Those are
14 the weapons. Among the vehicles, there are three
15 tractors, six horses with three carts, and then
17 Q. Do you see the page that says "Divjak"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Describe the equipment that was available in
20 Divjak, please?
21 A. I just have a list here of the villages,
22 Muratovici, Bukve, Sadovace, Bila, Grbavica. Perhaps I
23 haven't got the right page. There's no list of
24 equipment here at Divjak.
25 Q. On my page, Brigadier, it appears next to
1 "Donje Veceriska" as well?
2 A. Yes, I've found it. Divjak: 34 men, two
3 automatic rifles with a radio transmitter, four hunting
4 rifles, eight pistols, ten automobiles, one tam, five
5 freight vehicles, one tractor, a motorcycle, and a
7 Q. Lastly, Brigadier, could you read the
8 equipment that was available in Donje Veceriska?
9 A. Donje Veceriska: A platoon of 40 men, two
10 automatic rifles, one machine gun, one carbine, ten
11 pistols, ten passenger cars, one FAP, six tractors, one
12 or two carts, and a motorcycle. That's all. And
13 ammunition, which the quantity is not indicated.
14 Q. In April of 1992, Brigadier, in the face of
15 serious Bosnian Serb aggression, was this equipment
16 unreasonable to possess by the villagers of those
17 villages that you have just identified?
18 A. These places here, all these locations that
19 were indicated here were not interconnected, and they
20 were not near the position of the army of Bosnian
22 Q. So are you saying, Brigadier, that if you
23 weren't near the confrontation lines of the Bosnian
24 Serbs, then you shouldn't have armed yourself in the
25 face of what was happening to Sarajevo, what was
1 happening to the enclaves, what had happened at
2 Vukovar, that it was not appropriate to arm yourselves?
3 A. No, no. That is not what I mean. But they
4 were arming themselves just as much as they could,
5 depending on their possibilities.
6 Q. In April of 1992, against whom were they
7 arming themselves?
8 A. Against the aggressor.
9 Q. Who was the aggressor?
10 A. The common aggressor was the army of Bosnian
12 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could turn to
13 Exhibit 187, this is a document, Brigadier, that has
14 been entered into evidence, and you have identified the
15 person who sent this document as Zeljko Katava. Let me
16 ask you some questions about this particular document.
17 This document was sent on the 6th of January, 1993 from
18 Busovaca, and it was a defence military secret marked
19 confidential; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Well, the answer is really
22 obvious. Please speed up, Mr. Harmon.
23 MR. HARMON:
24 Q. To whom was this document sent?
25 A. From the heading, we can see that it was sent
1 to the command, ZSV, Central Bosnia, to the head of the
2 Military Intelligence Department.
3 Q. Who requested that this particular
4 document -- who ordered that this particular evaluation
5 be made?
6 A. Here, the request was made by the command.
7 Q. Is this a request that was made by Colonel
9 A. I don't remember whether it was made by
10 Colonel Blaskic or by the head of the chief of staff.
11 Q. Yesterday, you characterised this particular
12 document as representing the intentions, and I'm
13 quoting, "the intentions of the Bosnian army." Do you
14 remember that testimony?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Which intentions does this document reflect?
17 A. The intentions which came through later on.
18 We can see it in the document. This is a document that
19 I had received, and it was used, the evaluation, as the
20 estimate for the whole Operative Zone.
21 Q. Now, this document was prepared about two and
22 a half weeks before the conflict in Busovaca between
23 the HVO and the Armija; isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you tell us earlier today that before
1 offensive operations were prepared, intelligence
2 assessments were made of objectives of the HVO?
3 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the witness has
4 said just the contrary. Counsel for the Prosecution is
5 trying to put words in the witness's mouth which he did
6 not say. He answered this question that he had
7 forwarded routine reports to the commander, regardless
8 of the fact whether the commander planned any combat
9 activities or not. This question was asked several
10 times, and the answer was always the same. Now, in his
11 question, the Prosecutor is saying to the witness that
12 he had stated that he gathered this information, which
13 was not said by the witness.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Please reformulate your
15 question, Mr. Harmon.
16 MR. HARMON:
17 Q. In the HVO, Brigadier, before an attack was
18 made by forces of the HVO, was there an assessment made
19 of the objective of the attack, specifically,
20 identifying the forces, their locations, their
21 strengths, the type of weapons that they had?
22 A. The HVO had mounted defensive operational
23 combat activities, and for that kind of combat
24 activities, assessments were also made, which is
1 Q. Not only defensive, but offensive.
2 JUDGE JORDA: He told you defensive, Mr.
3 Harmon. Don't try to make the witness say what he did
4 not say, otherwise ask your question a different way.
5 MR. HARMON: His answer, according to my
6 translation, has the word "also made," implying they
7 were made for defensive purposes, as well as offensive
8 purposes. That's why I tried to clarify that point.
9 Q. So, let me, just to clarify that point,
10 Brigadier, you said these kind of assessments were made
11 for defensive operations; were these kind of
12 intelligence assessments made by the HVO for offensive
14 A. I said for defensive operations.
15 Q. Does that mean that these kind of assessments
16 were not made for offensive operations?
17 A. HVO had defensive operations in the
18 Operational Zone of Central Bosnia.
19 Q. Would you answer my question, Brigadier?
20 Were these kind of intelligence assessments made for
21 offensive operations by the HVO?
22 JUDGE JORDA: He answered your question, Mr.
23 Harmon. He does not want to say that there were
24 offensive operations. This answer certainly is not
25 convenient for you, but we cannot do anything, because
1 he doesn't want to say that there were any offensive
2 actions. You can't go any further than that.
3 If you want to show that there were offensive
4 operations, in that case, you will do it in the manner
5 that will be appropriate. But now we have to remain
6 more into our subject, and I will turn now to the
7 witness, and I will ask the witness to answer in a more
8 precise way to the questions.
9 Mr. Harmon, ask very precise questions and
10 then the witness will answer very precisely and the
11 Judges will not have to intervene.
12 Q. Brigadier, on September the 8th, 1993 did the
13 HVO conduct an offensive operation at Stari Bila, at
14 the hill at Grbavica?
15 A. Yes, that action was carried out with the
16 purpose of stopping further advancements towards SPS.
17 Q. Did you prepare intelligence assessment
18 before that operation was conducted?
19 A. That assessment had already existed from
20 before. It was known how much personnel and holdings
21 existed in that area.
22 Q. Let me ask you to look at this particular
23 document and turn to the 4th paragraph in this
24 document, please.
25 Do you see in the middle of that particular
1 paragraph the sentence that reads, quote, "Until now
2 they have been dispatching 160 soldiers to the
3 battlefields in Visoko Turbe"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Visoko and Turbe were front-line positions
6 against the Bosnian and Serb aggressors; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Let me direct your attention to the line that
9 reads as follows: "We have unconfirmed information
10 that they suffer from a deficit of ammunition and
11 shells for artillery pieces."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, let me direct your attention further to
14 a line to where it says, "Nowadays they are dispatching
15 soldiers to the Maglaj battlefield, about 160 of them."
16 That is, that appears, Brigadier, underneath the
17 previous sentence I read about Visoko and Turbe.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was fighting at Maglaj battlefield?
20 A. Both the HVO and the army.
21 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to a
22 sentence on the English version that reads as
23 follows: "So far Muslim forces have not undertaken any
24 concrete action except patrolling their sectors."
25 MR. HAYMAN: It might go faster if we tell
1 the witness where in this 3-page document that sentence
2 can be found, Mr. President.
3 MR. HARMON: I agree, but I can't read the
4 language, and I'm trying to --
5 Q. It's toward the end, Brigadier, in my English
7 JUDGE JORDA: In the English version it is on
8 the top of page 3. Is that it, Mr. Harmon?
9 MR. HARMON: That's correct.
10 A. In my text it says, "According to unverified
11 information they received, in part, Howitzers, then 128
12 millimetres, and according to unverified information
13 they do not have enough ammunition for artillery." Is
14 that it?
15 MR. HARMON:
16 Q. No, two paragraphs down, Brigadier.
17 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm prepared to
18 let the document speak for itself.
19 JUDGE JORDA: I think this is very easy.
20 It's very easy for the witness. It's about the last
21 third of the document underneath the name Miro Zermin.
22 I cannot read this in your language, but underneath
23 Miro Zermin, this name, but this is in English. So far
24 and so on. So, if I can find it, I think it can
25 certainly be found by the person who reads the
1 language. Brigadier, please.
2 A. If I found it --
3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, it's "So far," yes.
4 A. Thank you, Mr. President. "So far Muslim
5 forces have not, except by patrolling in their sector,
6 undertaken anything more concrete."
7 JUDGE JORDA: Your question, Mr. Harmon?
8 MR. HARMON:
9 Q. So this is a document, in your opinion, that
10 shows the aggressive intentions of the Bosnian Muslims
11 on January the 6th in Busovaca. That's your assessment
12 of it?
13 A. This is the evaluation of the assistant of
14 the chief of the intelligence, military intelligence
15 department in Busovaca, which I have received.
16 MR. HARMON: Now, could I turn to document
17 190, please?
18 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to a
19 portion that is three paragraphs, two paragraphs from
20 the bottom of this document. Two paragraphs from the
21 end of this document. It starts with the word
22 "Observing and analysing the activities."
23 Do you see that?
24 A. What territory do you mean? What area?
25 First page?
1 Q. The last two paragraphs from the end of this
2 document. There is the signature line, two paragraphs
3 from the end.
4 A. "Observing and analysing the activities
5 undertaken up to now."
6 Q. Yes. Yesterday you testified that the
7 Muslims were utilising the tactics of the aggressor,
8 that's what this particular report says. And those
9 tactics consisted of four elements; the capture of
10 territory; the regulation of positions; the moving out
11 of the Croat inhabitants; and taking full control.
12 Do you see that, in that particular report?
13 A. Yes. If I read this well, "Observing and
14 analysing the activities that were undertaken up to
15 now, the potential aggressor --"
16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Brigadier, we have seen
17 it. Ask your question.
18 MR. HARMON:
19 Q. The question I have --
20 A. They are changing, they are applying the
21 tactics. I did not say that they had applied the
22 tactics, I said they are applying.
23 Q. Let me ask you, when you say regulate
24 positions; what does that mean?
25 A. How do you mean? I don't know in which, what
1 is the meaning of this word that was put in here? So,
2 I cannot explain. I need the context.
3 Q. The context is the report that you wrote.
4 A. Yes. But what text? In order to find the
5 sentence that I can fully read it, and only then I can
6 give it to you.
7 Q. The second sentence in that paragraph that
8 reads as follows: "He is occupying the territory part
9 by part then regularising the situation in these areas,
10 displacing the Croatian population and taking full
12 That's the English translation of that
13 document that has been provided to me. Do you see that
14 sentence, Brigadier?
15 A. Yes, I see it. But in my text I will read
16 the whole sentence: "With this activity they are
17 taking part after part of that territory, and after
18 that they regulate the positions, they move out the
19 Croatian population and take complete control of" this
20 is regulating the positions.
21 Q. My question is; what does regulating the
22 positions mean?
23 A. That's the regulation by engineers around the
24 territories. It means fortifying, digging trenches,
25 organising the whole firing system on those positions.
1 Q. Now, those tactics were tactics that were
2 used by the army of the Republika Srpska, the
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In Ahmici on the 16th of April, did the HVO
6 capture the village of Ahmici?
7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this is outside
8 of the scope of the case in chief.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I agree. Please
10 reformulate your question, or otherwise change your
11 question, Mr. Harmon.
12 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I have a copy of
13 the transcript in which this witness testified
14 precisely to what I'm asking him. It is clearly within
15 the confines of the examination. He has testified and
16 he has -- I do not have a page quote.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Would you make your question
18 more precise? How come that from a question you're
19 asking where you're simply asking what regulating the
20 position means; and then you start from a very far away
21 question, and that is the problem of such type of
22 questions. We never know where you want to get with
23 those questions.
24 I'm saying to you today, and tomorrow I will
25 say to the Defence; how do you want to get to Ahmici?
1 What is your real purpose? What do you want to ask the
2 witness? Just ask this question very directly.
3 Your preceding question was: What does it
4 mean to regulate the position? So, what is your next
5 question, please?
6 MR. HARMON: My next question, Mr. President,
7 is this:
8 Q. Brigadier, were these very same tactics used
9 in the village of Ahmici by the HVO on the 16th of
11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that is what I have
12 understood, and unfortunately you did not need to ask
13 this question for the moment. Please ask a different
15 You cannot ask this witness what were the
16 tactics used by the HVO. The whole Blaskic case is
17 turning around this question, mostly; so, we cannot now
18 try, in explicit terms, regulating the position, so I
19 cannot accept this question.
20 Ask another question. Please speed up. You
21 cannot isolate sentences from the document just like
22 that. Otherwise, you have a specific plan, Mr. Harmon,
23 but continue with your plan; but please be more direct
24 in your questions.
25 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'll move on, I
1 can't be any more direct than I was, but the Court --
2 I will move to a different question.
3 If I can have 192, please, placed before the
5 Q. Brigadier, do you recognise this document?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. And this document was issued six days before
8 the attack on Ahmici, and it is a report from the Vitez
9 brigade command. To whom was it sent?
10 A. It was sent to the commander of the Vitez
12 Q. And this particular document, in the second,
13 sorry, the third paragraph, indicates that the soldiers
14 from the 325th Mountain Brigade were being sent to the
15 Serb frontlines at Visoko and Turbe.
16 A. May I read the sentence? "In the area of
17 Vitez municipality, the 325th Mountain Brigade was
18 formed whose members were going through practical
19 military training at the battlefield in Visoko and
20 Turbe, where a part of the manpower is being engaged."
21 Q. This is a document that Colonel Blaskic was
22 aware of, because yesterday you testified he received a
23 copy of this document.
24 A. It may have been a misinterpretation. I
25 didn't say that he got a copy, but I said that my
1 department made an overall estimate, and he received
2 the parts of reports which contained a part of this
4 Q. So, Colonel Blaskic was aware that ABiH units
5 were sending their members to and rotating their
6 members to and from the front-line positions against the
7 Bosnian Serbs?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. HARMON: Can we go to document 193,
11 Q. I have one question for you, Brigadier, in
12 respect to this document.
13 The date indicates the 14th of March 1993,
14 and yesterday you corrected this to be the 14th of
15 April. There appears to be some hand-written correction
16 done by some unknown party in that document.
17 How do you know this document was issued on
18 the 14th of April, as opposed to the 14th of March,
19 1993? What's your basis for stating that?
20 A. The contents of the document, and because
21 this was typewritten, and then we see that the number 3
22 has been crossed out with a typewriter and changed to
24 Q. What is the content of the document that
25 makes you believe this document was issued on the 14th
1 of April as opposed to the 14th of March? What's the
2 context of it?
3 A. It's a regular report about development in
4 the zone of responsibility, zone of intelligence
5 responsibility of this brigade.
6 Q. Is there anything else in this document, the
7 content of this document, Brigadier, that you can
8 assist me and assist the Court in understanding why you
9 have concluded this document was issued on the 14th of
10 April as opposed to the 14th of March? Can you be more
12 A. The text says, and the date is what it is,
13 unless you want me to read the text.
14 JUDGE JORDA: You're not answering the
15 question, Brigadier. You, yourself, said that the 14th
16 of April, that you deduced that from the context; and
17 the Prosecutor is asking you about that context on the
18 basis of which you conclude that it is April. So, I'm
19 taking you back to your own logic; agreed?
20 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, I didn't quite
21 understand the question. What is the question now
22 regarding what I said?
23 JUDGE JORDA: Listen. I'm going to try and
24 summarise. This afternoon seems to be rather
25 complicated for everyone, perhaps because of the fine
1 weather in The Hague, but it's very simple. The
2 Prosecutor is asking you about the date.
3 You, yourself, said it was the 14th of April,
4 not the 14th of March. He asked you why, and you
5 answered, among other things, that you are concluding
6 that it is the 14th of April from the content of the
8 And he is asking you what is the content,
9 what is it that makes you say in view of the whole text
10 that it was the 14th of April and not the 14th of
11 March? So, please answer this question.
12 A. Yes, it is the 14th of April on the basis of
13 data that was collected at the time by the assistant in
14 the brigade, in the Busovaca brigade, and which he sent
15 to his commander and to me as the chief of the
16 department for the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia.
17 JUDGE JORDA: I think you haven't answered
18 the question. It is not up to me to ask you questions,
19 it is up to the Prosecutor.
20 Please go on to your next question, Mr.
22 MR. HARMON: If I could have document 194
23 placed in front of Brigadier Zeko, please.
24 Q. Brigadier, I would like to direct your
25 attention to this particular document, paragraph number
1 4, it appears on the first page, and I would like to
2 direct your attention, please, to the second line about
3 which you testified yesterday.
4 You see the second line, the date of that
5 particular order, 02-33-867? What's the date on that
6 second line in paragraph 4?
7 A. As far as I can see on this document, the
8 date is the 15th.
9 MR. HARMON: May I approach the easel,
10 Mr. President?
11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes.
12 We are having a lot of discussion over dates
13 and I'm rather like the Brigadier. My impression is
14 that in the Serbo Croat version it is the 15th of
15 April, Mr. Harmon.
16 I don't know whether that's very important
17 for you, but it is my impression that it is the 15th of
19 MR. HARMON:
20 Q. Is it your conclusion from this document
21 Brigadier Zeko -- what is your conclusion from this
22 document, there is the date of the 15th of April, 1993?
23 What's your conclusion? What is your conclusion from
24 this particular date of the 15th of -- try again.
25 Can you hear me, Brigadier Zeko?
1 A. I can hardly hear you. No. Yes, yes, yes,
2 I've got it now.
3 Q. What is your conclusion from the date that
4 appears in paragraph 4, being the 15th of April, 1993.
5 What's the significance of that date to you?
6 A. The date that the order was issued, means the
7 preparations of the corps, instructions given to this
9 Q. What instructions were given on the 15th of
11 A. I could read the order to you.
12 Q. Please, you don't have to read the order to
13 me. Yesterday you testified that the date of the 15th
14 of April 1993, on this document, was significant. And
15 my question to you is very simple.
16 What is the significance of that date, the
17 15th of April, appearing on that particular document?
18 A. Preparations for the execution of combat
19 operations on the part of the army of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina and giving instructions to this
21 particular brigade, the 303rd. No, the 333rd.
22 Q. Now, let me invite your attention and the
23 Court's attention, please, to certain features on this
24 document. And Brigadier, I'm going to ask you to look
25 at this document very carefully for me.
1 I'm going to specifically ask you to look at
2 the characters that appear on this document. And you
3 see this orange line that I've drawn right here? This
4 orange line represents the bottom line underneath each
5 sentence, it's not visible, but there is a certain
6 horizontal plane. And let me direct your attention,
7 please, to certain numbers that appear on this
9 If you go down three sentences below the date
10 we've been talking about, in the middle of the page
11 you'll see the numbers "587." Do you see these
12 particular numbers?
13 A. 587, yes, yes.
14 JUDGE JORDA: I think in the English version
15 it's "567."
16 MR. HARMON: It may be in the English
17 version, but I'm referring, Mr. President, to the
18 Croatian version.
19 Q. Let me draw your attention to the way those
20 figures are formed, Brigadier, and then I want your
22 Brigadier, will you look at these figures,
23 please, very carefully, and just to help you in looking
24 at these letters, I direct your attention, as well, to
25 the second page of this document, and you'll see the
1 numbers "567" in paragraph 5, the fifth line down?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let me ask you to, please, examine the way
4 these numbers appear on this page. Directing your
5 attention to the numbers that I have previously
6 directed your attention to, do you see how the number 5
7 goes below the horizontal base of the sentence? Do you
8 see what I mean? I'm referring to this area right
9 here, where the number 5 appears here, and the number 7
10 that appears to dip below. Could you examine the
11 document, please? Do you agree with me?
12 JUDGE JORDA: Can you explain what you're
13 trying to show, please, Mr. Harmon?
14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm asking the
15 witness if the numbers, such as "5" and "7," are
17 JUDGE JORDA: On the first page?
18 MR. HARMON: On any page, any "5," any
19 number "7."
20 JUDGE JORDA: Number 5, yes.
21 MR. HARMON: And number 7?
22 JUDGE JORDA: Number 7, yes.
23 MR. HARMON: If they appear to go below the
24 bottom line of the sentence, the invisible line.
25 JUDGE JORDA: If you prefer, if you take the
1 dash as being the line, as being the base of the word.
2 MR. HARMON: The base of the word,
3 Mr. President, and the base of the numbers appears to
4 be ...
5 Q. Do you see what I'm talking about,
7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may be of
8 assistance, my learned friend is asking the witness,
9 who is not an expert, to provide expertise on numbers,
10 and I think that that is inappropriate.
11 On the other hand, if, in addition to number
12 957, then you see the next number, 921, you will see
13 differences between the two 9s. Obviously, there are
14 capital and small letters, because it is an old
15 typewriter. But this witness is not an expert witness
16 who could answer this question, so he's being asked to
17 analyse something he is not familiar with.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I'm not at all in
19 agreement with you. For the moment, Mr. Harmon has not
20 asked him to provide expert opinion on typewritten
21 numbers. Mr. Harmon, if I understand him well, is
22 simply asking the witness, your witness, to note that
23 there is a disparity between the numbers.
24 Perhaps, Mr. Nobilo, you can justify this
25 with an old typewriter and so on, but that is another
1 problem. For the moment, I don't think we should
2 interrupt Mr. Harmon.
3 Please go on. You want to have this
4 difference in the numbers stated, don't you?
5 MR. HARMON: Yes.
6 Q. Brigadier, do you see the differences I'm
7 talking about in terms of the serifs of these
8 particular numbers being below the plane on which these
9 other numbers sit?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to two
12 other numbers in this document, the date on the upper
13 left-hand corner that says "16/4/93"; do you see that?
14 Do you see the number 6?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Does the number 6 appear, to you, to go below
17 this line?
18 A. Not quite the way you've drawn it.
19 Q. Does the number 6 in the date that appears
20 "16/4/93," paragraph 3, appear to be one of these
21 elongated letters like the numbers 9, 5, and 7?
22 A. No. Number 6 cannot be elongated when it's
23 quite a different number. It's turned the other way
25 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to
1 paragraph 4, which has a date that you said is 15. Let
2 me ask you, where you say the 5 is, does there appear
3 to be any elongation under the number which you say is
5 A. This number 5 has no elongation, as we can
7 Q. In your opinion, Brigadier, is it more likely
8 that that is number 6, similar to the number 6 that
9 appears in "16/4/93" in paragraph 3?
10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have come to
11 what I said just three minutes ago. This is an expert
12 opinion that is being asked, and it is appropriate to
13 address such a question to an expert.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I'm afraid I would be
15 prone to agree with Mr. Nobilo. We are entering an
16 area which is rather complex. You are asking someone
17 who, a priori or a postiori, did not draft the
18 document. You're asking him to note the differences
19 between the numbers. Let's go to the end of your
20 thoughts. Are you thinking that these may be
21 forgeries? We can't stop halfway. I think things
22 should be said to the end.
23 MR. HARMON: Yes.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I wish to remind
25 you that we need to have a break shortly.
1 MR. HARMON: Perhaps now, Mr. President,
2 would be an appropriate time to take a break.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Do you have many more questions
4 for your cross-examination?
5 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President, I do not. I
6 have some additional questions on this topic, but ...
7 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. My colleague is reminding
8 you that I asked you to go to the end of your thought
9 regarding these numbers. Do you think that this
10 document was, in some way, interfered with? What is it
11 that you want to say? We can't stop there with
12 this pseudo-expertise of handwriting.
13 MR. HARMON: I'll ask the witness about
14 another document, similar, and ask him for his
16 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I think that the
17 interpreters must be tired. We're all lost in these
18 figures. All I know is that it's five to four. It is
19 a real four and a real five, and we're going to have a
21 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.37 p.m.
23 JUDGE JORDA: We are now resuming. Please
24 have the accused brought in.
25 (The accused entered court)
1 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?
2 MR. HARMON: I'd like to introduce the
3 following exhibit, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Microphone, please.
5 MR. HARMON: I'm offering Prosecutor's next
6 exhibit, and this is an exhibit which is a better copy
7 of Defence Exhibit 194.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Would you like me to give it
9 a new number with the number of a Prosecution Exhibit?
10 MR. HARMON: Yes, please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: So the document will be
12 marked Prosecution Exhibit 474.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, what are you trying
14 to show to us now about these figures?
15 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I just want to
16 introduce a better copy of Defence Exhibit 194. This
17 happens to be a slightly clearer copy, and my intention
18 is only to direct the Court's attention and the
19 witness's attention to the number that has been in
20 issue for the last few minutes, and that is whether, in
21 paragraph 4, the second line, the date, it is; a "15"
22 or a "16."
23 Q. Brigadier, do you have Prosecution Exhibit
24 474 in front of you, and can you please take a look at
25 the number and give us your interpretation of that
1 number, now that this document appears to be a little
2 bit better copy. Does that appear to be a "15" or a
3 "16" in paragraph 4?
4 A. As far as I can see, it is the same number
5 that I have seen previously, which is "15." That is
6 what I can see on this document.
7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours,
8 I would just direct your attention to the order number
9 and the date that is found in paragraph 3 and the order
10 number and date that appears in paragraph 4, just
11 merely for your comparison purposes only.
12 If I could have the next exhibit marked in
13 evidence, please?
14 JUDGE JORDA: Well, I have to say, for quite
15 awhile I've been wanting to say that maybe we can do it
16 by referring to the number of the order. I suppose
17 that the orders had numbers, and so different orders do
18 not have the same numbers. In order to find out
19 whether it is 15 or 16, in trying to figure out what it
20 was, maybe we can see which order it was. There might
21 be a slight imprecision, but in that case, that could
22 help us.
23 What do you want to say, Mr. Hayman?
24 MR. HAYMAN: We could really cut through
25 this, Mr. President, if the BH government would give us
1 the order of the 3rd Corps.
2 MR. HARMON: I have it, Mr. President.
3 MR. HAYMAN: We have asked them for it, and
4 they told us they couldn't find it. Now, if the
5 Prosecutor has had better luck at getting it, first of
6 all, I would suggest it may contain exculpatory
7 evidence, and he may have an obligation to give it to
8 the Defence. Secondly, he might produce it, the BH
9 government having declined to produce it to the
11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, this is a public
12 hearing, and I have to say that I fully agree with what
13 you've just said, but I have to add that it would also
14 help us if Croatia also answered to various injunctions
15 that are issued when we ask for it. We have to count
16 here on the cooperation of different states, and that
17 is true. If the parties, both your party and the
18 Prosecution, have at their disposal, all the various
19 governments on which this depends, we should not have
20 to go through this type of acrobatic accounting, trying
21 to see whether this is a 5 or a 6. I agree with you,
22 but I wanted to complete it.
23 Putting this aside, I would like to ask the
24 Prosecutor to ask the questions to the witness and try
25 to find what number of the order it was, starting with
2 Please ask your question now.
3 MR. HARMON: All right.
4 Q. Brigadier Zeko, can you tell me what you
5 believe the order number in paragraph 4 is, starting
6 with "02-33"?
7 A. The number "02-33-867," that is the number of
8 the order.
9 Q. Does that appear to be the same number that
10 appears in paragraph 3?
11 A. Which number do you mean, number 8 or number
13 Q. In paragraph number 3 of this document, there
14 appears to be an order number starting with "02-33,"
15 and that is at the end of the second sentence. Do you
16 see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What number does that appear to be?
19 A. "O2-33," and then the number that's here
20 before. Only to my assessment, I think my assessment
21 is that it should be "867."
22 JUDGE JORDA: What is your aim now, Mr.
23 Harmon, before we take a decision to try and find a way
24 out of it?
25 MR. HARMON: I have one more question of this
1 particular witness on Prosecution Exhibit 474, and then
2 I will move to the order number 02-33-867, the
3 Prosecutor's next exhibit.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Are you trying to prove that it
5 was on the 16th of April?
6 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President. The
7 Defence, yesterday, said that this document, their 194,
8 said it was the 15th of April, and I am attempting to
9 establish that the document --
10 JUDGE JORDA: No. The document is dated, the
11 document itself -- just a moment. Which document are
12 you speaking of?
13 MR. HARMON: Yesterday, Mr. President, the
14 Defence offered Defence Exhibit 194. They referred to
15 paragraph 4, and they said that the date that appeared
16 in paragraph 4 was the 15th of April.
17 JUDGE JORDA: The 15th of April.
18 MR. HARMON: I can direct the Court's
19 attention to the portion of the transcript, and I am
20 attempting to establish that this is not the 15th, but
21 the 16th of April.
22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. So now I would like
23 to consult with my colleagues before giving our
25 JUDGE JORDA: The Judges have decided, in
1 function of Article 98, we ask the Prosecutor to make
2 the request to Bosnia-Herzegovina to give us the
3 original of this order. And the motivation for it is
4 that the Prosecutor has the interests to show that the
5 order, 02-33-867, is dated the 16th and not the 15th of
6 April. Mr. Prosecutor, this is the decision of the
7 Trial Chamber, and please transmit it to the government
8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We would like to have the
9 original in our archives, the original of this order.
10 MR. HARMON: Yes, there is no problem. I
11 will convey that, Mr. President, as soon as I conclude
12 with the court session today.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.
14 MR. HARMON:
15 Q. Two last questions about 194A, the document
16 we have been talking about. Do you have that in front
17 of you, Brigadier, this order for attack of the 16th of
18 April, 1993?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the first paragraph I would like to
21 direct your attention to, the order for the attack
22 indicates why there is an order for this particular
23 attack; does it not?
24 It indicates that the HVO are committing
25 brutal aggression in the wide area of Central Bosnia,
1 focusing on Vitez, and especially in the direction of
3 It goes on to say that the soldiers of the
4 HVO are terrorising the civilian population. And it
5 concludes by saying, does it not, that the basic goal
6 of this aggression is to establish military control
7 over the sovereign, over the territory of the sovereign
8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is under
9 attack, in order to create conditions for the political
10 demarcation of the artificial construct called
11 Herceg-Bosna, and that is the basis for giving this
13 Have I accurately characterised what is found
14 in paragraph number one?
15 A. Yes, that is what is written in paragraph
16 number one.
17 MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have the next
18 exhibit, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The document is 475, 475A for
20 the English translation.
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. Brigadier, does this number 02-33-867, dated
23 the 16th of April 1993, deal with the subject matter
24 that was found in the previous 194 Defence Exhibit, the
25 previous order that was issued to the 303rd Mountain
1 Brigade? Does it appear to be that very same order
2 that is mentioned in Defence Exhibit 194?
3 JUDGE JORDA: Have you got this order, then,
4 Mr. Harmon?
5 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I indicated I was
6 intending to introduce this order. I do have it and it
7 is the order that is before Your Honours, Prosecutor's
8 Exhibit 475.
9 MR. HAYMAN: We are pleased the order is
10 here, Mr. President and Your Honours, but I have two
11 comments, for the record: One is, this Court
12 previously issued the binding order to the government
13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina to produce documents, including
14 this order, to the Defence.
15 They declined to do so, instead providing it
16 to the Prosecution, which I think would cause grave
17 concerns to the Trial Chamber.
18 Secondly, we don't know how long the
19 Prosecutor has had it, but I will call the Court's
20 attention to the fact we were not given this document
21 under Rule 68. And yet, it says it is the 3rd Corps
22 directing the 303rd Brigade of the BH army to, on the
23 16th of April, provide assistance, among other things,
24 reading from paragraph one, provide assistance to our
25 forces in the village of Putis, Jelinak, Loncari,
1 Nadioci and Ahmici, directly addressing the issue of
2 whether there were BH army forces in those locations.
3 We should have gotten this document from the
4 Prosecutor under Rule 68, Your Honours.
5 MR. HARMON: I would be glad to answer that,
6 Mr. President. We received this document this morning,
7 and this is an opportunity that we have had to present
8 it to the Court and to counsel.
9 So, in respect of the Rule 68 violation,
10 Mr. President, I take serious issue with that.
11 MR. HAYMAN: Obviously the Prosecutor's only
12 strategic objectives took precedence over Rule 68.
13 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I don't care to
14 engage in a lengthy debate with Mr. Hayman on this
15 particular issue, but this issue was raised by virtue
16 of Mr. Hayman yesterday standing up and pointing to the
17 exhibit he presented, 194, and indicating that the date
18 was the 15th of April, as opposed to the 16th of April.
19 That, Mr. President, piqued our interest in
20 this issue and we pursued it. Mr. Hayman may not like
21 the results, but we pursued the issue based on an issue
22 that he raised in the course of his direct examination
23 of this witness.
24 MR. HAYMAN: It raises the question,
25 Mr. President, what other exculpatory material is at
1 the fingertips of the Prosecutor, but technically in
2 the possession of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
3 and therefore, there is no obligation to produce it,
4 they believe.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I'm going to give
6 you various answers about various things.
7 In general, you are right in saying that the
8 Prosecutor has to give you all the exculpatory
9 evidence. But in this case that is the controversy
10 that appeared yesterday. I think that's yesterday
11 evening, I suppose, yesterday evening.
12 The Office of the Prosecutor tried to find an
13 explanation to this problem of dates. If this document
14 was received this morning, they should have been given
15 to you; but I would not like to make any lengthy
16 polemics now.
17 But the Prosecutor managed to have, very
18 rapidly, the answer from one of the states in the
19 region, but I will come back to my general remark on
20 the three states in the region, although I do not want
21 to go into the details. But whatever I said was my
22 personal opinion and has nothing to do with my
24 There is something else that I would like to
25 say, and I think this Trial Chamber has to have the
1 dignified face towards Bosnia and Herzegovina. We now
2 issued an order where we wanted to clear the matter of
3 typewriters. We issued an order requesting Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina to forward us the order 02-33-867, dated
5 16th of April; but I think, Mr. Harmon, that you have
6 got it. So, it's an order that is already requested,
7 it's already been fulfilled. Is this the same order?
8 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE JORDA: So, it is the same order.
10 MR. HARMON: This is the order,
11 Mr. President, about which there has been the
12 considerable debate.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Well, as my colleague just told
14 me, that this Trial Chamber is really very satisfied
15 that we have just issued an order and it was fulfilled
16 straight away.
17 This is very specific to the International
18 Criminal Tribunal, but we are now going to put an end
19 to this incident.
20 Mr. Harmon, I would like to give you, once
21 again, the possibility to ask the witness, and ask him
22 the questions you wanted to ask him about this
23 document, which is 475, I believe.
24 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, 475 is the order
25 that has been the subject of the controversy in the
1 Defence Exhibit 194. I am submitting it on its face.
2 It speaks for itself. I have no additional questions
3 of this witness, and I would like to now turn to the
4 last Defence Exhibit, 195A, if that could be placed in
5 front of the witness, I would appreciate it.
6 JUDGE JORDA: We have 475 here.
7 MR. HARMON: 195, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Do we have 195? It must be in
9 my documents. Yes, I see, thank you.
10 MR. HARMON:
11 Q. I have some very brief questions about this
12 document, please, Brigadier. First of all, this
13 document was sent from the command of the Viteska
14 Brigade. Can you tell me where the command of the
15 Viteska Brigade was located?
16 A. In this time period, on this date I wouldn't
17 know. I know that later on it was in the Isumarja
18 (phoen) or forestry building, but I'm not sure it was
19 there at this time.
20 Q. To whom was this particular document sent?
21 A. It was also sent, as usual, to the brigade
22 commander and to me as the chief of the military
23 intelligence service.
24 Q. Can you tell me, by looking at this
25 particular document, what form of transmission this
1 document was sent? Are those fax numbers that faintly
2 appear in the upper part of this document?
3 A. This document could have been sent by fax,
4 telephone. As far as I can tell, it was typed on the
5 mechanical typewriter.
6 Q. This document was sent during the period of
7 combat on the 22nd of April, 1992 from a brigade
8 headquarters to both the commander of the Central
9 Bosnia Operational Zone and to your command?
10 A. It says, "To the command of the Central
11 Bosnia Operative Military Intelligence Service," which
12 means it was forwarded to Bila.
13 Q. That's fine. I understood your testimony to
14 be that it was sent to Colonel Blaskic, as well.
15 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions
16 with this document, Mr. President. I move to admit
17 Prosecutor's Exhibit 467 through 475, and I have
18 concluded my examination.
19 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I have
20 understood correctly, my learned colleague has tendered
21 documents for admission. We have no objection, but we
22 would like the statement from the Prosecutor that he
23 received document 457 from the government of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, because in response to the same
25 request the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina replied
1 that it couldn't find it.
2 475A, that is the document we are referring
3 to. We have no other objections regarding any of the
5 JUDGE JORDA: This is very important and very
6 serious what you have just said, Mr. Nobilo. Can you
7 provide the correspondence to the Registry of your
8 request for this document?
9 MR. NOBILO: Not from the Prosecution, from
10 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Of course, the reply. When did
12 you ask for the document, when was it refused to you?
13 A copy of your letter, a copy of the reply, and, of
14 course, reference to the document to make sure that it
15 was well identified.
16 And we will see when we ask a state from the
17 region, some parties get it very quickly and others
18 don't get it. I'm saying it in this case for this
19 state, but I may say the same for another state on
20 another day.
21 This is obviously in the record.
22 MR. NOBILO: Yes, Mr. President, we will
23 submit to you our entire correspondence regarding this
24 matter. Thank you.
25 MR. NOBILO:
1 Q. Mr. Brigadier, this is the document you first
2 saw when the Defence showed it to you. You didn't see
3 it when you were making your own assessments.
4 A. Which document?
5 Q. It is D194. It is the document we received
6 from the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina we have been
7 talking about for the last hour.
8 The fact that the order of the 3rd Corps was
9 issued on the 16th in the morning, before 12 o'clock,
10 or on the 15th; does it change anything in respect of
11 your conclusion that the BH army was planning an attack
12 on the Lasva Valley?
13 A. No, it doesn't change anything.
14 Q. Tell me, when a corps issues the command for
15 an attack, does it, prior to that, issue a preparatory
16 order and then the actual executive order; or does the
17 executive order come immediately?
18 A. Before any activity is engaged in, either
19 defensive or offensive operation, first a preparatory
20 order is issued for the organisation of the unit, and
21 after that comes the order for carrying out that
22 operation, be it a defensive or offensive one.
23 Q. Therefore, a preparatory order had to have
24 been issued at some time prior to the morning of the
25 16th of April, '93?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I will read to you Prosecutor Exhibit 475,
3 the last one we just received, but something that the
4 Prosecutor did not read to you. So I'm going to ask
5 you what it means to you as a military man. I'm
6 reading from the middle of the first paragraph.
7 Let me read the whole paragraph, to give you
8 the context, and I'm going to quote it. "The 3rd Corps
9 orders that the commander of the 303rd Mountain Brigade
10 will, from its troops, select one battalion," and then
11 hand-written "with the second and third municipal staff
12 of the Defence of Zenica," I can't read the
13 handwriting, exactly, "from the present area of
14 deployment, take them along the
15 Zenica-Drivusa-Janjici-Janjicki Vrh-Gubanci axis, and
16 capture and take control of the Defence region, grid
17 point 957, in depth of the quota elevation point." We
18 can't see the figure well. And then it says, now
19 listen carefully, "To provide assistance to our forces
20 in the village of Putis, Jelinak, Loncari, Nadioci, and
21 Ahmici, our forces in those villages, in the event of
22 an attack launched by the enemy, forcefully respond and
23 embark on a counter-attack along Nadioci-Sivrino Selo
24 axis." There is no need to quote further from this
1 What can one deduce from this? That in the
2 villages of Ahmici, Nadioci, Loncari, Jelinak, and
3 Putis, there were elements of the BH army, according to
4 this document?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have a map as
7 an exhibit. Could it be placed on the ELMO or given to
8 the witness and distributed to their Honours and the
10 Q. Brigadier, could you get up, approach the
11 map, and look to see whether a unit of the BH army in
12 Ahmici is marked on this map? Will you tell us aloud,
14 A. Yes. I will look at the map.
15 Q. Very well.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This map is for the period the end of
18 December '92, beginning of January '93. There are too
19 many details for me to check, whether everything is
20 exact, but according to the key, the blue colour
21 indicates the Bosnian Serb army. So I'm asking you,
22 once again --
23 A. I'm sorry.
24 Q. -- whether the unit in Ahmici has been marked
25 in blue. You may sit down.
1 Can you describe how it was marked and which
2 are the closest villages, so that we can identify
3 exactly where Ahmici is, that is, the villages named on
4 the map, because Ahmici is not, and how those units
5 have been marked.
6 A. Nadioci, Sivrino Selo.
15 MR. NOBILO: We are tendering this map
20 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D196.
21 JUDGE JORDA: 196?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that is
24 MR. NOBILO:
25 Q. Brigadier, would you please look with me,
1 once again, at document D194 and the Prosecution
2 document 475? Very well. That will do, so as not to
3 waste time.
4 Yesterday morning, or maybe in the afternoon,
5 I'm not sure -- actually, it was in the morning, during
6 the cross-examination by the Prosecution regarding the
7 numbers of brigades, he said that he didn't have the
8 document, but he also claimed that there was no 303rd
9 Brigade from Zenica. By insight into document D194 and
10 insight into document 475, what can you see from them?
11 Is this evidence that the 303rd Brigade did exist in
12 Zenica or not?
13 A. Yes, that the 303rd Brigade exists, based in
15 Q. Therefore, the D194 document was issued by
16 the 303rd Brigade, and document 475 was addressed to
17 the brigade in Zenica; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Will you please look at document D187? It is
20 the assessment of the allies from the 6th of January,
21 1993. Will you look at the second page of the Croatian
22 text, and at the bottom, can you tell me, in the fourth
23 paragraph, how many soldiers did the unit accommodate
24 in Silosu Mehurici?
25 A. 2.300 men.
1 Q. How many men were at the front at Visoko and
2 Turbe against the Serbs?
3 A. 160 troops.
4 Q. Is that what it says in that document?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Tell me, where, according to this document,
7 were the other soldiers, by far, the majority of those
8 soldiers? What does that document tell us?
9 A. It says that they were deployed in the
10 villages with the weapons, which means they were not
11 towards the Bosnian Serb army.
12 Q. Does it say that there were 1.500 automatic
13 and semi-automatic rifles, 20 anti-aircraft guns, 10
14 anti-air guns, 15 mortars, and three recoilless guns.
15 Does it say that, too, in the document?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Document D186, the diary of Enes Varupa, will
18 you look through that document, please, and tell me,
19 would you agree with me that the first date that
20 appears in that document is the 17th of February, 1992,
21 and the last date appearing there, look through it,
22 please, is the 15th of April, 1992, the first and last
23 dates that can be seen in this document?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell me, in the Vitez municipality where this
1 document originated, between February 1992 and the
2 middle of April 1992 or, rather, in that period, when
3 was the BH army founded, on what date?
4 A. The BH army was established in this area on
5 the 1st of December, 1992.
6 Q. But when did Territorial Defence units start
7 or, rather, when did the war begin in
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina? When was Sarajevo attacked?
9 A. In April 1991.
10 Q. Can we say, then, that these were the first
11 weeks that are mentioned in this diary, the first weeks
12 of the formation of the Territorial Defence, the
13 precursor of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? We're
14 talking about April '92. It has been correctly entered
15 in the transcript as April '91.
16 Can we say that, at the beginning, the
17 Territorial Defence was poorly armed from February to
18 April? Was this the generalised phenomenon?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can we say that the main warehouses and
21 depots captured by the HVO and the Territorial Defence
22 were captured as of May that year, that is, after these
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can we say that the equipment of the HVO and
1 the Territorial Defence was significantly improved
2 after May?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Exhibit D193, please. You remember this
5 document, D193, whether it said the 14th of March or
6 the 14th of April, '93. You said that it was the 14th
7 of April. Why do you believe it is the 14th of April
8 and not the 14th of March?
9 A. Because it can be seen here that the number 4
10 has been typed over number 3.
11 Q. So these are numbers indicating months. Were
12 they written by hand or by typewriter? Can you answer
14 A. By typewriter.
15 Q. So you're concluding that the last figure
16 typed was "4," and you come to the conclusion that it
17 was in April?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can we see Prosecution Exhibit 467, the
20 decision on the formation of the corps of the BH army?
21 Exhibit 467.
22 Brigadier, will you please look at this
23 decision and tell us, does it represent an
24 administrative basis for the formation of the corps, or
25 at the moment that the decision was made, does that
1 mean that the corps were formed? What would you say as
2 the military man?
3 A. No. This is an administrative decision
4 regarding the formation of the corps.
5 Q. Let me draw your attention to the second
6 paragraph and, within the second paragraph, the third
7 part listing the municipalities of the 3rd Corps. My
8 question is: Was the 3rd Corps ever, to this day, in
9 Banja Luka, Bosanska Dubica, Bosanska Gradiska?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Why not?
12 A. Because then and now, this was the territory
13 under the control of the Bosnian Serb army.
14 Q. So an administrative decision and the wish is
15 one thing, and the actual state of affairs is another?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Then, will you repeat, when, in effect, the
18 3rd Corps was formed?
19 A. The 3rd Corps was formed on the 1st of
20 December, 1992.
21 Q. Thank you. Let us go on to document --
22 MR. NOBILO: Just the moment, please. We
23 didn't take note of the number of the exhibit.
24 Mr. Dubuisson, could you help us? It's the
25 warning regarding behaviour towards joint property in
1 Travnik, vehicles and communication vehicles. It is
2 Exhibit 470.
3 Q. Do you recall that the Prosecutor asked you
4 about this? Could you explain to the Court what this
5 means, attitude towards common property? Did the HVO
6 ever control the maintenance institute in Travnik, that
7 is, did it have full control of it itself? Who, in the
8 end, took over this institute, this common property,
9 and who managed it independently, eventually? Could
10 you explain the confusion over this document?
11 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, common property
12 means that both the Territorial Defence and the HVO, at
13 the time, had possession over this equipment. The HVO
14 never had possession of this equipment on its own, nor
15 did it use this equipment as an owner.
16 Q. Who, in the end, threw who out and took full
17 control over this institute?
18 A. At the end, it was the BH army which took
19 full control over this institute, as well as the
20 barracks and all the equipment, and all the materiel
21 remained in the possession of the BH army.
22 Q. When you were testifying that the BH army had
23 control over all the military industry, with the
24 exception of the explosives factory in Vitez, is that
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. NOBILO: It is almost 5.30. Shall I
3 proceed, Your Honours, Mr. President, because I have
4 some more questions.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE JORDA: I was just going to ask you
7 that question. I think we shall not proceed, as you
8 have the number of questions to put.
9 In that case, I invite you to resume our work
10 tomorrow afternoon. In line with our timetable, which
11 is well-known to everyone, we will resume at 2.00 p.m.
12 tomorrow afternoon for the end of the re-examination by
13 the Defence, the questions of the Judges, after which,
14 we shall have the Status Conference on various
15 organisational matters regarding the Blaskic trial, and
16 then we will hear the next witness.
17 The hearing is adjourned until tomorrow at
18 2.00 p.m.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
20 5.30 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday,
21 the 23rd day of September, 1998 at
22 2.00 p.m.