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  1. 1 --- Tuesday, October 6th, 1998

    2 --- Upon commencing at 2.05 p.m.

    3 (Open session)

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated, have the

    5 accused brought in.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: First I would like to say good

    8 afternoon to the interpreters and to our translators.

    9 Of course, good afternoon to the counsel, as well. We

    10 have a great many documents here.

    11 Before we with the cross-examination of

    12 General Marin, we would have the witness brought in

    13 first.

    14 (The witness entered court)

    15 JUDGE JORDA: General, do you hear me?

    16 A. Mr. President, yes, I do hear you.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I'm sure that

    18 counsel already told you, we're now going to give the

    19 floor to the Prosecution, that is to Mr. Kehoe, but we

    20 want to remind you that you are still under oath. And

    21 now we can begin with the cross-examination.

    22 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President, Your

    23 Honours.

    24 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe

    25 Q. Good afternoon, Brigadier.

  2. 1 A. Good afternoon.

    2 Q. Brigadier, we have not been formally

    3 introduced, but we have been standing here for some

    4 time around the charts here. My name is Greg Kehoe, to

    5 my right is my colleague, Mark Harmon, and to his

    6 right, the handsome young chap to his right is Andrew

    7 Cayley.

    8 So if I may, I would like to ask you a couple

    9 of questions.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: I suppose Mr. Harmon is also a

    11 handsome young man.

    12 MR. KEHOE: He's in an advanced state of

    13 deterioration, like I am, Judge, so I don't put him in

    14 the same category.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Go ahead.

    16 MR. KEHOE:

    17 Q. Brigadier, I would like to ask you some

    18 questions about your testimony over the past week or

    19 so, and I would like to start, if I could, on your

    20 background.

    21 Take us back a little bit and tell the Court

    22 and the rest of us a little bit about your education,

    23 if you could.

    24 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, I completed

    25 elementary school in Novi Travnik, secondary school

  3. 1 also in Novi Travnik. I graduated from the faculty of

    2 political sciences, the department for social work and

    3 the department of defence.

    4 Q. Now, the last bit of education that you just

    5 talked to us about, that you graduated from the

    6 department of defence; what does that mean?

    7 A. In the former state, that is the former

    8 Yugoslavia, at the faculty of political sciences, there

    9 was a department which was headed defence. In that

    10 department people were trained, the people who wanted

    11 to study the subject, were trained to work in

    12 headquarters, in civilian defence matters, and to work

    13 in former headquarters of the Territorial Defence.

    14 Also, they could find employment in secondary schools

    15 teaching young people to prepare for defence.

    16 Q. Well, Brigadier, what subject or what area

    17 did you study in the department of defence in the

    18 university?

    19 A. Within the framework of that faculty, upon

    20 graduation, one acquired the title of professor. So, I

    21 became professor of defence, and I could apply to work

    22 in a secondary school or in other civilian institutions

    23 dealing with defence within the former structure of the

    24 state.

    25 Q. Was this defence, this degree from the

  4. 1 department of the defence, was it of some value to the

    2 former Yugoslav People's Army?

    3 A. Probably it was. Upon graduation from this

    4 university department, according to the former law and

    5 education, you required a university degree. If the

    6 need existed and there was a competition announced,

    7 then people with these qualifications could apply for a

    8 position in the former Yugoslav People's Army; but it

    9 didn't necessarily mean that you would be accepted.

    10 Q. Did you, Brigadier?

    11 A. No, I never applied.

    12 Q. Were you ever a member of the Yugoslav

    13 People's Army?

    14 A. I was while I was doing my regular military

    15 service. I said in my introduction that I did my

    16 military service in the school for officers in reserve.

    17 I spent six months there, and after that, another six

    18 months of military service; and when I completed that

    19 service I had the rank of reserve sergeant.

    20 Q. Let's talk about the JNA, just very briefly,

    21 Brigadier. Since you studied it at some detail in the

    22 university, I think you could be helpful to us.

    23 You noted during the course of your

    24 examination that Blaskic only had three officers in his

    25 headquarters that had graduated from the military

  5. 1 academy; is that right?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And those three officers were himself, I

    4 believe -- who were they, himself and who were the

    5 other two?

    6 A. You want me to give you their names?

    7 Q. Yes, I would, please.

    8 A. General Blaskic, Ivica Zeko, Mijo Bozic.

    9 Q. In your opinion, were these three officers

    10 very well-trained officers?

    11 A. They were young officers. They didn't have

    12 sufficient experience to carry out the tasks they were

    13 assigned in the HVO, because before they joined the HVO

    14 they were at the level of a company, or perhaps some

    15 auxiliary positions in a unit of brigade level.

    16 I don't know what positions these colleagues

    17 of mine had in the JNA.

    18 Q. But they graduated from the military academy

    19 prior to -- they graduated from the military academy

    20 and they were officers in the JNA; is that right?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Now, how else did you become an officer in

    23 the JNA, other than going to the military academy? I'm

    24 talking about being an active service officer; how else

    25 could you do that?

  6. 1 A. I'm not sure that this is quite correct, what

    2 I'm going to say, because after all, it was a long time

    3 ago.

    4 I think you could have graduated from a

    5 higher school, and I am not familiar with all the

    6 preconditions required to become an officer; but as far

    7 as I know, those officers could not have any duties

    8 above the level of a platoon or a company.

    9 I'm not quite sure of all that I have just

    10 said, because all of this was a long time ago.

    11 Q. Well, when did the JNA stop conscription?

    12 A. Could you please specify this question?

    13 Because conscription in the former army occurred at two

    14 levels. So, what exactly do you want me to say?

    15 Q. It may be my terms, Brigadier, were

    16 imprecise; but when was national service abandoned?

    17 A. The question is not clear to me, I'm afraid,

    18 but I'll try and answer it to the best of my ability.

    19 Are you asking me when the JNA ceased calling

    20 up young people for military service? Because there

    21 was a rule that all young men had to do their military

    22 service.

    23 Or do you mean when young people ceased to

    24 enrol at military academies and military schools?

    25 Q. When did the JNA cease calling up people for

  7. 1 military service?

    2 A. The JNA did not cease calling up people, as

    3 far as I know. As far as I know, young people didn't

    4 wish to go to the JNA after the aggression against the

    5 Republic of Slovenia, and this was even more widespread

    6 after the aggression of the JNA against Croatia and

    7 later Bosnia and Herzegovina; but I couldn't tell you

    8 the exact date.

    9 Q. So, would it be fair to say that people

    10 stopped going to the JNA sometime in 1991; is that

    11 right?

    12 A. I couldn't confirm that with precision.

    13 Q. Well, you talked about officers that went to

    14 the military academy, and you also refer to the fact

    15 that there were reserve officers, and that you had gone

    16 to reserve officer's training. Now, explain that to

    17 the Judges, if you could.

    18 A. The school for reserve officers, in the

    19 former armed forces, because that is what they were

    20 called, the armed forces consisted of the former JNA

    21 and the Territorial Defence; and this school trained

    22 officers so that after an additional period of

    23 practical training and certain courses and exercises,

    24 they could be in command of units at the level of a

    25 company.

  8. 1 That was the purpose of the school for

    2 reserve officers. It existed for all branches and

    3 services; infantry, artillery, communications, and so

    4 on.

    5 Q. How long did these reserve officers train

    6 for?

    7 A. As I already said, I spent six months in this

    8 school, and after that I went, joined the troops for

    9 practical training, and at the time I was deputy

    10 commander of the platoon. After six or seven months

    11 spent there, I returned home and continued to do my

    12 regular civilian jobs.

    13 That applied to all people who completed, who

    14 graduated from this school of reserve officers at the

    15 end of their military service. This was part of their

    16 military service.

    17 Q. So, between the training and the actual work

    18 with the platoons, you, as a reserve officer, had a

    19 year's training in the JNA; is that right?

    20 A. No, not training. I had six months of

    21 training.

    22 Q. You had a year's active service between your

    23 training and your work with the platoons in the JNA; is

    24 that right?

    25 A. No, this wasn't active service, I was doing

  9. 1 my military service. It was an obligation in the

    2 former state, and this military service meant an

    3 obligation on all able-bodied men in the period from 18

    4 to 26 years of age. They had to do their military

    5 service. Which branch or service they would go to,

    6 this was determined by recruitment commissions, and

    7 depending on the needs of the former army.

    8 Q. Well, in any event, you will agree with me,

    9 Brigadier, you were in the JNA for a year, or

    10 approximately a year; correct?

    11 A. Yes. I was in the JNA for a year doing my

    12 regular military service, like any other citizen of

    13 appropriate age in the former Yugoslavia.

    14 Q. Now, the reserve officer system, was that an

    15 intricate part of the JNA defence structure?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And the JNA relied on the reserve officers,

    18 didn't they?

    19 A. In its organisation the former Yugoslav

    20 People's Army had units which were under the command of

    21 reserve officers in some cases; but the level of that

    22 unit could not be higher than a company. In some

    23 conditions those officers could be deputy commanders of

    24 battalions, but they couldn't go higher up in the chain

    25 of command, because they were not trained for that, and

  10. 1 they were not trained on a daily basis for executing

    2 such jobs.

    3 Q. So, Brigadier, in addition to having active

    4 service officers, such as the accused, Blaskic, the JNA

    5 had reserve officers, and they also had the structure

    6 of national service, as you noted, national service by

    7 every male between 18 and 26; is that right?

    8 A. In the age group you were mentioning, between

    9 18 and 26, you had to go and do your national service,

    10 and then when you returned, you were still under

    11 obligation to be called up until, I think, you were 60,

    12 or something like that.

    13 Q. This system that was set up by the JNA of the

    14 active officers, the reserve officers, national service

    15 by every male between 18 and 26, was tied to the

    16 concept of a total national defence; wasn't it?

    17 A. Yes, that was a concept of defence prepared

    18 and organised by the former Yugoslavia.

    19 Q. This total national defence, in addition to

    20 incorporating the JNA active and reserve officers, also

    21 incorporated the Territorial Defence; isn't that right?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. This Territorial Defence, why don't you

    24 explain to the Judges -- you were educated in this --

    25 explain what the Territorial Defence was in the former

  11. 1 Yugoslavia.

    2 A. The Territorial Defence in the former

    3 Yugoslavia was a segment of the armed forces which were

    4 developed in the former Yugoslavia. They were less

    5 well armed units than the Yugoslav People's Army, and

    6 these were units, as far as I can recall, with a

    7 different assignment from those of the units of the

    8 Yugoslav People's Army.

    9 Q. Well, what was the theory, the military

    10 theory of the integration between the JNA and the

    11 Territorial Defence should hostilities break out by

    12 some outside aggressor, such as the then Soviet Union?

    13 What was the theory?

    14 A. Both the Yugoslav People's Army and the

    15 Territorial Defence, within the defence structure of

    16 the former Yugoslavia constituted the armed forces of

    17 the former Yugoslavia. In the event of aggression

    18 against the former Yugoslavia there were different

    19 concepts regarding the use and deployment of these

    20 forces.

    21 In order to clarify my answer to your

    22 question, in practice, it would be as follows: If an

    23 aggression were to occur against a certain territory,

    24 all units of the Territorial Defence in that area would

    25 be subordinated to the highest command of the Yugoslav

  12. 1 People's Army whose zone of responsibility that was.

    2 Q. So, what you're telling the Court, and

    3 correct me if I'm wrong, is that in the time of an

    4 aggression, the Yugoslav People's Army and the

    5 Territorial Defences would work in concert, work

    6 together with the Territorial Defences being

    7 subordinated to the JNA command structure; is that

    8 right?

    9 A. Partly, yes. That is right. But in practice

    10 the Yugoslav People's Army had the duty to take upon

    11 itself the initial strike of any possible aggression

    12 against the former state; and following mobilisation of

    13 reserve forces, then the Territorial Defence would also

    14 join in that task.

    15 Q. Now, as the name indicates, the Territorial

    16 Defence was a geographically based unit; wasn't it?

    17 A. Yes. Its organisation went as far as the

    18 republic level.

    19 Q. Now, this system, being geographically based,

    20 this Territorial Defence system working in concert with

    21 the JNA, was a system that the former Yugoslavia

    22 depended on and relied on for almost 50 years; isn't

    23 that right? 45 years, 50 years?

    24 A. Yes, yes. Only in those 45 or 50 years there

    25 were various organisational changes that took place.

  13. 1 Because this organisation that we have been discussing

    2 didn't exist immediately, 1945 or 1950 that is, from

    3 1945 until 1990 the defence system was adjusted and

    4 improved, according to the views of military experts in

    5 those days, for it to be able to successfully defend

    6 itself against possible aggression.

    7 Q. I have no doubt you know more about the

    8 structure than I do, but correct me if I'm wrong;

    9 suffice it to say that the Territorial Defence system

    10 that was an integral part of the defence system of the

    11 former Yugoslavia, was territoriality based until the

    12 fall of the former Yugoslavia. I'm talking about the

    13 collapse of the former Yugoslavia.

    14 A. Partly that is true. But I said that the

    15 Territorial Defence, its organisation and structure

    16 ended at the republic level. After the JNA collapsed,

    17 the republics retained the Territorial Defence as the

    18 initial form of their organisation.

    19 Q. That initial form of the organisation was the

    20 foundation for a defence system within Bosnia, for

    21 instance, that ultimately led to the HVO or the army of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that right?

    23 A. That couldn't be put quite like that, because

    24 the Territorial Defence was, for many military

    25 conscripts, synonymous with the Yugoslav People's Army;

  14. 1 so that people did not gladly accept or look upon

    2 favourably the Territorial Defence.

    3 Q. Well, Brigadier, were you in the Territorial

    4 Defence?

    5 A. I was for two years.

    6 Q. From when to when?

    7 A. '95, '96. No, I'm sorry, I

    8 apologise, '85, '86.

    9 Q. That was in Pucarevo, or what was Pucarevo or

    10 Novi Travnik?

    11 A. Yes, Novi Travnik. I worked in the

    12 department for organisation and mobilisation.

    13 Q. Your section of the Territorial Defence was

    14 focused around the municipality of Novi Travnik; wasn't

    15 it?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Let's change subjects here, Brigadier, and I

    18 would like to talk to you just a little bit about some

    19 of your comments about the Central Bosnian Operative

    20 Zone and your comparisons to the NATO charts. I

    21 believe those were Defence exhibits that we had before.

    22 If we could turn to those exhibits briefly, and I

    23 believe that is 248, Defence 248.

    24 Do you have those charts, Brigadier?

    25 A. Yes.

  15. 1 Q. Brigadier, where do those charts come from?

    2 A. This chart was part of the preparatory

    3 material which we are now using in the federation army

    4 and on the basis of this material, such as the one I

    5 have in my hand, we organise the district staffs and

    6 corps staffs.

    7 Q. Well, Brigadier, can you tell me the name of

    8 this manual?

    9 A. I am not sure, maybe it's FM 105, but to be

    10 very specific, this is the material which MPRI is using

    11 for the federation army with the objective of

    12 establishing the corps and district staffs

    13 headquarters. This is what we're doing in the

    14 federation army, and this is how a district or a corps

    15 of which I am a chief of staff is going to look. This

    16 is maybe 90 per cent of how it's going to look like and

    17 because I am dealing with it, I know of this.

    18 Q. So this is not a NATO document, is it?

    19 A. This document reflects a structure of a corps

    20 or a district in NATO. However, there is also a

    21 different structure of certain different corps based on

    22 its purpose, based on its use. Because the NATO system

    23 is used throughout the world and for us, for the

    24 purposes of the federation army, we were offered the

    25 things that were the most rational, the most

  16. 1 appropriate for our needs in case we are attacked and

    2 we needed to defend.

    3 Q. Now, let me see if I understand you

    4 correctly. During your testimony, did you equate the

    5 Central Bosnia Operative Zone to a NATO corps?

    6 A. Yes. At that time, the Operative Zone, that

    7 is its command, had that level, was of that level.

    8 Q. Well, did you have any armoured divisions in

    9 the Central Bosnian Operative Zone?

    10 A. No, we never had armoured divisions.

    11 Q. Did you have any air transport, such as

    12 helicopters? Any air transport like that at all?

    13 A. No, we did not have that.

    14 Q. How many intelligence Brigades did you have?

    15 A. We had none.

    16 Q. How many artillery Brigades?

    17 A. We had none.

    18 Q. How many engineering Brigades?

    19 A. We had none.

    20 Q. Did you have any cavalry Brigades or

    21 divisions in the corps?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Brigadier, I just read to you the United

    24 States 7th corps that went to the Gulf War in 1991,

    25 which had conservatively on the low end 100.000

  17. 1 soldiers in the corps. Now according to the

    2 testimony -- you know Ivica Zecko, do you not?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Ivica Zecko told us, and this is on page

    5 11717, in response to a question and then a follow up

    6 question by Judge Riad asking how many soldiers were in

    7 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone. He noted that there

    8 were 8.000 to 8.200, and I just read you the 7th US

    9 Corps with conservatively 100,000 troops. Now, you

    10 would agree with me, would you not, sir, that there is

    11 a discrepancy between those numbers of some

    12 significance?

    13 A. Yes, there is a difference in numbers.

    14 However, in the organisation of a military of the BH

    15 army, in conditions of this kind, what we had at our

    16 disposal were the infantry forces. Let me try to

    17 clarify this point further for you; in the structure

    18 and the name of a particular district, it can be a

    19 Brigade. It can have an armoured division or Brigade.

    20 It may have artillery Brigades. It may have a

    21 significant reconnaissance forces. It all depends on

    22 the purpose of this particular military organisation.

    23 If this military organisation is meant for

    24 tactical operations it would have a particular

    25 organisation, and this organisation, however, will

  18. 1 depend on the resources and equipment. Even to date,

    2 in this organisation, we did not have the forces which

    3 you have just mentioned, armoured divisions, et cetera,

    4 and so on. This does not exist even in a BH army,

    5 which is now developing three corps. So these are

    6 corps or these are districts or organisations which

    7 have what I talked about.

    8 Q. Well, but the bottom line, Brigadier, is your

    9 comparison of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone to a

    10 NATO corps is inaccurate, isn't it?

    11 A. To my understanding, the way I understand the

    12 issues, and in order to present to the Trial Chamber

    13 the organisation which was supposed to be in place and

    14 which we actually had, I took this as an example and I

    15 thought that it was quite a vivid example regarding the

    16 organisation and structure of our Operative Zone

    17 command. Because when this structure was defined for

    18 the federation army, which we have been building now,

    19 if we take into account the beginnings of the HVO and

    20 HVO army since 1992, even to date, we do not have the

    21 forces which you have mentioned, including air

    22 transport. But we are calling it a district. We are

    23 calling it an organisation. We have a territory. We

    24 have a population. For the needs of the defence of the

    25 federation, if somebody should start an aggression

  19. 1 against us, these are the forces which we will defend

    2 ourselves with. You can have a weak organisation or a

    3 strong organisation, but an organisation is an

    4 organisation.

    5 Q. Well, Brigadier, my learned friend, Mr.

    6 Nobilo, asked you whether or not you were regularly in

    7 touch with NATO experts and that's at page 12065, to

    8 which you responded in the affirmative. Was your

    9 answer to his question on that subject in the

    10 affirmative?

    11 A. Yes, when you talk about the structure, the

    12 definition of structure, about the build up of this

    13 organisation, I am in touch with the MPRI experts.

    14 These people have talked to us. They conducted a 30

    15 day training about six or seven months ago, and if

    16 we're not working with them directly, then they are

    17 working in our subordinate units. We are in daily

    18 contact. We expect that this organisation will help us

    19 build up a military structure that will help us defend

    20 ourselves against any aggression.

    21 Q. Well, Brigadier, maybe you can clear this up

    22 for me. Name one NATO corps, one corps in all of NATO

    23 that has 8.000 to 8.200, 8.000 to 8.200 troops? Name

    24 one.

    25 A. I cannot name such a corps, but 8.000 to

  20. 1 8.200 soldiers under arms is the number of men under

    2 the organisation of men who were under arms in that

    3 area. This is what our strengths were. However, we

    4 had more soldiers. These were just people under arms.

    5 Take into consideration the area which we covered,

    6 which is about one third of the territory of Bosnia and

    7 Herzegovina and then you will arrive at the

    8 understanding of the facts as I presented them.

    9 Q. Let me shift a little way away from NATO and

    10 move to the JNA and if I could hand out this exhibit

    11 with the permission of the Court.

    12 Mr. Dubuisson, our next number, if you will?

    13 I'm sorry, I don't know it.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: This will be 476.

    15 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, I don't think we gave

    16 enough out there, because we have translations in

    17 both. Mr. President, I apologise, this is only in

    18 English and BSC, but I don't know if I gave

    19 Mr. Dubuisson enough copies. Here's an extra copy.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: This is 476, 476A for the

    21 English version.

    22 MR. KEHOE: May I use the English copy,

    23 briefly?

    24 Q. Now, Brigadier, the exhibit you have before

    25 you is a structure for the 4th Corps of the Yugoslav

  21. 1 People's Army and the 4th Corps had approximately

    2 28.000 men in it, didn't it?

    3 A. I do not know that, the precise, I don't know

    4 what corps you're referring to.

    5 Q. Were you familiar with the 4th Corps in the

    6 Yugoslav People's Army?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Well, how many men were there in a corps in

    9 the Yugoslav People's Army in 1991?

    10 A. As far as I recall a corps, and again it

    11 would depend on the use that it was meant for, its

    12 task, you know, time of war. It would have 15.000 men

    13 and up.

    14 Q. Well, would you accept this 4th Corps had

    15 28.000 men in it? Would you accept that, Brigadier?

    16 MR. NOBILO: Objection, Mr. President. The

    17 witness just said that he does not know this corps or

    18 does not know how many men this corps had.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Nobilo is

    20 right. You want him to say that the 4th Corps should

    21 have had 28.000 men. First of all, he is saying that

    22 he doesn't know and in general he is saying about

    23 15.000 is the number they were. I know that's not the

    24 answer that you wanted, but move on to another

    25 question, please.

  22. 1 MR. KEHOE: That's fine, Judge, we'll have

    2 other information on the size of this corps being

    3 28.000.

    4 Q. How many officers, junior officers and

    5 privates -- go to the last page -- what is the total in

    6 the headquarters of this 4th Corps? Count them up.

    7 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, the document

    8 that I have in front of me only makes reference to the

    9 command structure, not the entire size of the corps.

    10 It's clear from it that it had 91 commissioned

    11 officers, 20 non-commissioned and five just regular

    12 soldiers. That is what it refers to.

    13 Q. Now, that, Brigadier, even if your numbers --

    14 that is a staff, and my math may be wrong here, is 114,

    15 isn't it? For even by your estimate, 114 for even your

    16 estimate of approximately 15.000, there is 114 staff?

    17 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, I, indeed, said

    18 that I do not know anything about the unit that this

    19 document refers to. I can only guess here. I can talk

    20 about these things in principle because for each --

    21 JUDGE JORDA: I have to intervene for a

    22 moment here, Mr. Kehoe. The Judges are here in order

    23 to serve as arbiters, but they do have to come in now

    24 and again because we're not having this man take a

    25 military examination within the context of NATO. Go to

  23. 1 the point. You can't both show him a document that

    2 comes from you and then comes about figures saying, do

    3 you agree that? We can all do the addition as well and

    4 see that it adds up to 114. Try to go directly to your

    5 questions, Mr. Kehoe, please.

    6 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

    7 Q. According to this document, this document,

    8 Brigadier, the staff headquarters for the 4th Corps of

    9 the JNA on the 29th of August of 1991, had 114

    10 personnel; correct?

    11 JUDGE JORDA: He told you that he didn't know

    12 it. It's your document which says 114. We have to

    13 start with the figures on this document and that's

    14 all. Perhaps he should know. That's another issue.

    15 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I am only limiting

    16 my question to what this document reflects. This

    17 document reflects 114 personnel in the headquarters.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: But you're asking the witness

    19 whether he agrees with it or doesn't. That's what you

    20 have to do, does he agree with it or doesn't he?

    21 That's how I'd ask the question. Or I would ask him

    22 myself. Don't try to go around the bush, as it were.

    23 Go right to the point. I'll ask the question.

    24 Q. Do you agree with this document? In other

    25 words, the 4th Corps of the army of the 29 August,

  24. 1 1991, in your opinion, could it reasonably have had

    2 this number? It's an official document, that's the

    3 question that's being asked, you know or you don't

    4 know. That's all there is.

    5 A. Mr. President, I do not know how many men

    6 this corps had, but in this document, and we did our

    7 math all together it says 114, however, I cannot

    8 confirm this.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: All right. That's the answer.

    10 MR. KEHOE:

    11 Q. Now, you said that the corps structure that

    12 you were familiar with in the JNA was approximately

    13 15.000 men; right?

    14 A. No, that is not how I said it. I said that

    15 the corps were different in size. They had different

    16 structures and the structure was defined by the task

    17 that this corps would have in wartime. For instance,

    18 you would not have the same kind of a corps in

    19 Vojvodina as you would in Bosnia. You would not

    20 establish a corps just for formality. It depends on

    21 the purposes, so we can talk about numbers and

    22 principle, but whether the number is 110, 114, indeed I

    23 cannot say either way.

    24 Q. Well, suffice to say, Brigadier, that in

    25 response to a question by Mr. Nobilo, you noted, and I

  25. 1 am on page 12173 to 12174, that Blaskic in his

    2 headquarters needed 97 officers with a total personnel

    3 officers of 151; is that right? Is that what you

    4 said?

    5 A. No, I never said that.

    6 Q. "Question: Brigadier, according to the NATO

    7 standards, how many officers did Tihomir Blaskic need

    8 to have in order to carry out his duties?

    9 "Answer: If you look at the first row, first

    10 column, and you see the number of officers, he was

    11 supposed to have 97 active officers. That is a total

    12 of 151."

    13 Did you respond in that fashion to Mr.

    14 Nobilo's question?

    15 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, when asked a

    16 question regarding the structure of the command based

    17 on the NATO standards, I said that the number should

    18 have been 220. These numbers are referred to in the

    19 chart which I offered here. I don't know by heart

    20 whether it was 95 active duty officers, if I was to

    21 review these materials again, I would have given the

    22 same answer that I had given to Counsel Nobilo.

    23 Q. Brigadier, suffice to say that with 8.000 to

    24 8.200 officers, your statement that Blaskic needed 97

    25 officers and 151 total personnel in the headquarters is

  26. 1 a gross exaggeration; isn't it?

    2 A. Mr. President, either the interpretation is

    3 not good or I was misunderstood. My understanding was

    4 whether General Blaskic for 8.400 officers he needed 95

    5 officers. But this is completely wrong because we

    6 never had 8.400 officers, so this may have been a

    7 misinterpretation. So if that was the case, please

    8 have the question asked again.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps it was an

    10 interpretation problem. Because we're talking about

    11 8.000 and then 200 officers.

    12 MR. HAYMAN: Counsel said 8.200 officers, we

    13 all listened, Mr. President, and waited.

    14 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, counsel, I appreciate

    15 that. It was a misspeak on my behalf and I'll rephrase

    16 the question.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Please ask your

    18 questions clearly, Mr. Kehoe.

    19 MR. KEHOE: I apologise, Mr. President.

    20 Q. Brigadier for 8.000 to 8.200 soldiers which

    21 is what Mr. Zeco said was in the Central Bosnia

    22 Operative Zone, your statement that Blaskic needed 97

    23 officers and 151 total personnel in his headquarters is

    24 a gross exaggeration; isn't it?

    25 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, this is no

  27. 1 exaggeration and let me give you the reasons why: The

    2 Operative Zone command, when it was established and

    3 organised, had a task to produce a structure and an

    4 organisation for defence of the territory of Central

    5 Bosnia against the aggression of the army of Republika

    6 Srpska for 10 or 11 Brigades. This was our task, to

    7 create an organisation for that objective.

    8 In the last week I kept explaining all the

    9 time what we actually had on the ground. It is a fact

    10 that we did not have more than 8.500 men under arms,

    11 but we did have a larger number of men who were on our

    12 list. Now this is how it looked when we were holding a

    13 defence line, we had all the weapons and the defence

    14 line and the situation is worsening, the enemy is

    15 planning an attack. Then, what we would do, we would

    16 order the people that did not have the weapons to

    17 wait. This was maybe tragic, but they had to wait for

    18 somebody to get killed and then they would step inside

    19 the trench and pick up their weapon and keep on

    20 defending.

    21 The level of the command at the Operative

    22 Zone level, compared to NATO, the way we envisaged and

    23 the way our task was defined, this would have been at a

    24 level of a corps. But as we did not have artillery,

    25 armour and so on, we called ourselves an infantry

  28. 1 corps. But when you say to an officer or a soldier, an

    2 infantry corps, he knows immediately what your size,

    3 what your force is and what this type of a corps can

    4 do, what it is capable of doing. I think that that is

    5 clear.

    6 Q. Well, Brigadier, you told us that in the

    7 headquarters you had between 20 and 25 personnel; is

    8 that right? In the headquarters for the Central Bosnia

    9 Operative Zone.

    10 A. Yes, between 23 and 25. It varied. If you

    11 were to ask me on a particular date, I would give you a

    12 specific figure, but the rough figure is not more than

    13 25 and I remember that very well.

    14 Q. Well, did it increase above 25?

    15 A. As far as I can recall, no.

    16 Q. This was until the time of the Washington

    17 Agreement; it stayed at 25?

    18 A. During the war, from '92 until the end of

    19 '93, no, '92/'93, during the war, whether it was right

    20 up to the Washington Agreement, I wouldn't be able to

    21 say just now. I can't tell you right to the man, but

    22 during the war, '92, '93, we had up to 25 men in the

    23 staff.

    24 Q. Next document, please.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: This 477, A for the English

  29. 1 version.

    2 MR. KEHOE:

    3 Q. Brigadier, take a look at that document, if

    4 you could, while the Judges are taking a look at theirs

    5 and Defence counsel is taking a look at theirs.

    6 Take a look at this document, Brigadier, and

    7 I ask you to take a look at the last page. Do you

    8 recognise Colonel Blaskic's signature?

    9 A. I do.

    10 Q. And do you recognise that seal?

    11 A. I do. It is the seal of the command of the

    12 Operative Zone.

    13 Q. Read, if you will, the items. You're welcome

    14 to read the entire document, I don't want to limit you

    15 in any fashion, but I'm basically directing my

    16 questions toward point number two. Tell me when you're

    17 through, Brigadier, and I will ask my next question.

    18 A. I'm ready.

    19 Q. Now, you were part of the staff on the 11th

    20 of August of 1993; were you not?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And in point two, about midway down in the

    23 first paragraph, Colonel Blaskic says that the Central

    24 Bosnia Operative Zone command is 59.4 per cent full

    25 with 38 posts?

  30. 1 A. Yes. Mr. President, Your Honours, the figure

    2 38 includes officers for communications, which we had

    3 formed, attached to the command of the Operative Zone,

    4 which was not originally envisaged; so that this

    5 number, the difference between the number I gave, that

    6 is 25 and 38, is due to this.

    7 So, this number includes communications

    8 officers, because we had international organisations,

    9 and that had not originally been envisaged, and we also

    10 had a press service.

    11 Q. Well, Brigadier, drop four lines down, and it

    12 says Central Bosnia Operative Zone communication

    13 company, 19.6 per cent full with 22 members.

    14 A. Yes, that's what it says in this document.

    15 Q. So, your statement to this Court that during

    16 the entire time you were in the headquarters, that the

    17 headquarters staff did not increase beyond 25 was

    18 inaccurate; wasn't it?

    19 A. It was accurate, because there were 25

    20 persons directly working on the implementation of the

    21 orders of the commander, and in organising the work of

    22 the command, as regards combat and organisation in

    23 general. The people who were in the press service and

    24 who were in the department for communications, they

    25 were included in this total number, but they were

  31. 1 working in another area, that is communications and the

    2 press service. This was not envisaged, according to

    3 our original structure.

    4 Q. Brigadier, let me go back again to one of my

    5 questions I asked you previously on how many people

    6 should have been in that staff; in the Central Bosnian

    7 Operative Zone staff headquarters, if the staff was a

    8 hundred per cent filled, how many did you estimate?

    9 A. There should have been, according to our

    10 indicators that we had and the aim we set ourselves,

    11 there should have been about 105 people.

    12 Q. Blaskic himself, in the middle of the war,

    13 has 38 posts, according to him, that is 59 per cent

    14 full. My math may be incorrect, but if it's a hundred

    15 per cent filled, it would be 61; wouldn't it? By his

    16 own admission.

    17 A. Could the question be even more precise for

    18 me to be able to answer it properly?

    19 Q. Very simple, Brigadier. In this note that

    20 the accused sent to HVO main headquarters on the 11th

    21 of August 1993, in the middle of the war, he said that

    22 he had 38 posts filled, and that was 59.4 per cent

    23 filled.

    24 Do a quick approximate math calculation; if

    25 it was a hundred per cent filled, how many posts would

  32. 1 he have filled in the Central Bosnian Operative Zone

    2 headquarters, 61, 62?

    3 A. I can't work it out exactly, whether it's 61

    4 or 62, but when I was talking about the structure

    5 Operative Zone command, I think we offered a document,

    6 and I would like us to have a look at that document

    7 again.

    8 Q. Brigadier, we can look at any document you

    9 want.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I think it is

    11 important for this witness to see the document, because

    12 it is from 1992 that envisaged a hundred men, and this

    13 is from August 1993; so, if we're making comparisons

    14 between the testimony in the direct examination and

    15 what the witness is saying now, we need to have the

    16 document so as to clear up the situation completely.

    17 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I gladly will take

    18 the time to give this witness the document, this is not

    19 meant to be any questioning that doesn't give this

    20 witness the opportunity to review any document he

    21 wants.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I agree with what you

    23 said, Mr. Kehoe. What is the document? What is the

    24 number?

    25 MR. KEHOE: I would be perfectly honest with

  33. 1 you, Judge, I read the document, but with 200

    2 documents, I don't know the number. I think it was a

    3 1992 document that was somewhat thick and had lists of

    4 positions.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, Mr. Nobilo, do you

    6 have the document?

    7 MR. NOBILO: Document D201.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: This is one of the earliest

    9 ones, one of the first. Mr. Kehoe, so that everything

    10 is clear here, make things clear. What you want to do

    11 is make a comparison between a document which was

    12 signed by the accused, dated 18 November 1992, and

    13 D201, in which the accused, I don't know to whom he was

    14 writing to, but he said how the Central Bosnia

    15 Operative Zone command was supposed to be organised.

    16 You're comparing that document with the

    17 document you have just shown us, the A476, in which the

    18 accused makes a report to the central headquarters to

    19 say what posts he doesn't have, and then using the

    20 percentages you are trying to deduce, or you're trying

    21 to show that, to see whether or not there is a

    22 contradiction in what the witness said; is that

    23 correct, Mr. Kehoe?

    24 A. That is correct, Mr. President, the witness

    25 asked to see 201, and my question is focused on 477, I

  34. 1 took the position that if the witness wants to take a

    2 look at a prior Defence exhibit, that's fine.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: I understand. We all agree

    4 about what we're talking about. Continue with your

    5 questions, please. Ask your question again, please.

    6 MR. KEHOE:

    7 Q. Have you had the opportunity to look at

    8 exhibit 201, Brigadier?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Now, Brigadier, let me ask you a question,

    11 you said that your headquarter's staff was no more than

    12 25, yet we see in this exhibit in August of 1993 that

    13 the headquarters staff went to a minimum of 38 posts;

    14 isn't that right?

    15 A. I said that in the command there were 25 men.

    16 I repeat what I have already said. The difference

    17 shown in this report that you gave me, Mr. Kehoe, in

    18 relation to what I said, is attributable to the men who

    19 were working as communications officers. Because we

    20 don't have them mentioned here in the formation, as you

    21 can see. Then, also, people working in the press

    22 centre and the person who drafted this document

    23 included those men in the staff members of the

    24 Operative Zone command.

    25 Q. Now, you will agree with me, once again, that

  35. 1 using the rough calculations of 59.4 per cent, Blaskic,

    2 in the middle of the war, told his headquarters in

    3 Mostar that if his posts were filled, that would amount

    4 to 62, 61, 62 posts in the headquarters. You would

    5 agree with me that that is what this document reflects.

    6 A. The table that I was referring to when I

    7 spoke about the organisation and structure of the

    8 Operative Zone command is based on this document, which

    9 was tendered, I don't remember its number, under which

    10 number it was mapped.

    11 MR. NOBILO: D201.

    12 A. Document D201. In my testimony I gave

    13 information regarding the situation as it was,

    14 according to this document.

    15 Q. The document speaks for itself, we will move

    16 on to another subject, Mr. President.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, go on.

    18 MR. KEHOE:

    19 Q. Now, Brigadier, you mentioned that you had

    20 problems in the headquarters, because you said that not

    21 only did you not have enough people in the

    22 headquarters, but you didn't have enough trained people

    23 in the headquarters; is that right?

    24 A. We didn't have enough trained officers with a

    25 military education, and also with military experience,

  36. 1 I wish to emphasise.

    2 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I apologise, my

    3 colleague reminded I'm going into another area. I

    4 don't know if this is a break time or if Your Honours

    5 want to keep going. I will gladly do anything Your

    6 Honours want me to do.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: If you're going to change

    8 subjects, we'll take a 10 to 15-minute break.

    9 --- Recess taken at 3.17 p.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 3.39 p.m.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume the

    12 hearing. Have the accused brought in, please.

    13 (The accused entered court).

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, you said were you

    15 going to change subjects now.

    16 MR. KEHOE: I am changing subjects, Your

    17 Honours, and I'm moving to the actual officer corps,

    18 both within the headquarters of the Central Bosnian

    19 Operative Zone and within the brigades.

    20 Q. That's the subject I will be moving to,

    21 Brigadier, and I move to that based on a statement you

    22 made, Brigadier, on page 12621, 12621, where you said

    23 that, "let me just remind you that in the brigade

    24 commands we did not have enough officers who had proper

    25 military training."

  37. 1 Now, the first thing I would like to you do,

    2 Brigadier, if we could put this on the ELMO, and I

    3 believe it's --

    4 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Mr. Dubuisson, 80/ --

    5 the number of this exhibit?

    6 THE REGISTRAR: This is 80/6.

    7 MR. KEHOE: Thank you.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: There is no D, it's a

    9 Prosecution exhibit.

    10 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if I could, if we

    11 could somehow move the ELMO back closer to the

    12 Brigadier so he can point to things on the ELMO, it's a

    13 little difficult.

    14 Q. Brigadier, can you see that picture okay?

    15 A. I can.

    16 Q. Brigadier, just with the assistance of the

    17 usher, I don't know if there is a pointer there, I'm

    18 going to ask you to use a very sophisticated pointer, a

    19 chopstick, I think it is. No chopstick? Okay, a pen

    20 will suffice.

    21 Brigadier, take a look at that picture, you

    22 see the accused, Colonel Blaskic, in the middle of

    23 that; don't you?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And who is seated on the Colonel's right?

  38. 1 A. Filipovic, General Filipovic.

    2 Q. General Filipovic, after General Blaskic

    3 became a Brigadier in the HVO, took over the Central

    4 Bosnia area for the HVO; isn't that right?

    5 A. After General Blaskic was appointed Chief of

    6 Staff of the main headquarters of the HVO, General

    7 Filipovic became commander of the Vitez Operative Zone.

    8 Q. When he was in the Central Bosnian Operative

    9 Zone, and when Colonel Blaskic was the commander, what

    10 role did Colonel Filipovic have, or now General

    11 Filipovic?

    12 A. General Filipovic, after Travnik fell that

    13 is, after units of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    14 pushed back the HVO from Travnik, at that time General

    15 Filipovic, as far as I can recall, had certain duties

    16 in the joint command, I think together with General

    17 Arif Pasalic, I'm not quite sure of that.

    18 So, after the fall of Travnik, after the

    19 joint command ceased to function because of the overall

    20 attack by the BH army against the HVO in the Lasva

    21 Valley and beyond, General Filipovic in August or

    22 September, as far as I remember, was deputy commander

    23 of the Vitez military district.

    24 Q. And what was General Filipovic prior to

    25 joining the HVO?

  39. 1 A. General Filipovic was a former officer of the

    2 Yugoslav People's Army.

    3 Q. What rank did he hold?

    4 A. As far as I can remember, he was a lieutenant

    5 colonel, I'm not quite sure, though.

    6 Q. He was an active JNA officer at the time he

    7 left the JNA and joined the HVO; wasn't he?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. To the colonel's, talking of Colonel's

    10 Blaskic's left, who is that gentleman? Point to him,

    11 if you could.

    12 A. To the left of Colonel Blaskic is Franjo

    13 Nakic, Chief of Staff of the Vitez military district,

    14 or the Vitez Operative Zone.

    15 Q. And what was Franjo Nakic's military

    16 experience prior to joining the HVO?

    17 A. Franjo Nakic graduated from the school for

    18 reserve officers in the same way that I did.

    19 Q. And what rank did he hold?

    20 A. Franjo Nakic, I'm not sure exactly what rank

    21 he had. I think it was captain first class, or major.

    22 Q. Let's turn our attention to a Defence

    23 exhibit, and that is exhibit 251, and if we could put

    24 that on the ELMO.

    25 Can you see that, Brigadier? Can you see

  40. 1 that document clearly?

    2 A. I can see it, but I can't read the text, the

    3 words.

    4 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I don't have an

    5 extra copy -- we do have an extra copy, wonderful.

    6 MR. KEHOE:

    7 Q. Can you see that okay, Brigadier? Heaven

    8 knows I couldn't see it without glasses.

    9 A. Yes, I can see it well now.

    10 Q. Take a look at the brigade structure on the

    11 bottom of this particular document. In April of 1993

    12 there are two brigades in Travnik that are missing; is

    13 that right, that are not on this chart?

    14 A. The Travnik Brigade, I can see it on the

    15 chart.

    16 Q. Excuse me, I'm talking about the Zenica

    17 brigades. I apologise, I misspoke again.

    18 Counsel just said it was a space problem,

    19 there's two missing. I just want to talk about the two

    20 missing, first.

    21 A. Yes, yes, the Zenica brigade, Jure Francetic

    22 Brigade is missing.

    23 Q. Who was the commander of the Jure Francetic

    24 Brigade in April 1993?

    25 A. The commander of the Jure Francetic Brigade

  41. 1 in April 1993 was Zivko Totic, today a Brigadier, who

    2 was abducted by BH army members, whose escort was

    3 killed, and the brigade commander was taken into

    4 custody.

    5 Q. Now Brigadier Totic, what was his military

    6 experience prior to joining the HVO?

    7 A. As far as I can recall, Brigadier Totic had

    8 completed a higher military school, section engineers,

    9 and specifically he was working on engineering works at

    10 airports.

    11 Q. He, at the time he left the JNA, was an

    12 active officer in the JNA; isn't that right?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Now, there was another brigade in Zenica, and

    15 that was the 2nd Zenica Brigade, whose commander was

    16 Vinko Baresic; isn't that right?

    17 A. The second Zenica brigade never functioned

    18 properly, the command of the Operative Zone wanted to

    19 establish and organise that brigade, but the conflicts

    20 prevented us from achieving that goal. The commander

    21 that you mentioned, Mr. Vinko Baresic, did, indeed,

    22 have the duty of establishing that brigade as the

    23 commander; but that brigade was never properly

    24 organised because of the war that broke out.

    25 Q. When the war broke out, or when the HVO was

  42. 1 formed, Vinko Baresic was also an active officer in the

    2 JNA as well; wasn't he?

    3 A. No, Vinko Baresic completed the school for

    4 reserve officers, and he worked in the district TO

    5 staff for, in the department for information and

    6 propaganda, or rather for morale.

    7 Q. So, he was an officer that had gone to

    8 reserve officer's school, like you and Franjo Nakic; is

    9 that right?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Let's go to the Bobovac Brigade, and the

    12 Bobovac Brigade was commanded by a gentleman by the

    13 name of Emil Harah; isn't that right?

    14 A. Emil Harah. However, the commander of that

    15 brigade changed; so, I couldn't tell you exactly when

    16 the brigade commanders were on duty at what time.

    17 Q. Well, Brigadier, you know Emil Harah; do you

    18 not?

    19 A. I saw Emil Harah in 1992 when I visited the

    20 command of that brigade at Ponikve, and we met

    21 officially then. I'm not familiar with his biography,

    22 or his career, or what he did before the war.

    23 After the war, after the attack of the BH

    24 army on Vares, Emil Harah, as far as I know, fled to

    25 join the army of Republika Srpska, and after that I

  43. 1 never saw him again.

    2 Q. Well, was Emil Harah an active JNA officer

    3 prior to joining the HVO?

    4 A. I think he was not, but I'm not sure of that,

    5 because I said that I knew the man for only two or

    6 three months. I went there, the war broke out, he went

    7 over to the army of Republika Srpska, so I'm not sure

    8 about that.

    9 Q. Let's keep going on this list, and the next

    10 one on the chart is the Viteska Brigade, which you

    11 testified was formed in March of 1993, and whose

    12 commander was Mario Cerkez. What military training did

    13 Mario Cerkez have?

    14 A. Mario Cerkez had a regular education,

    15 secondary school, and he also completed the school for

    16 reserve officers.

    17 Q. Now, as you stated previously, this is the

    18 school for reserve officers that was an intricate part

    19 of the JNA defence system in the former Yugoslavia,

    20 correct?

    21 A. The school for reserve officers lasted six

    22 months, the training lasted six months. The programme

    23 of training lasted six months, and this was within the

    24 framework of regular military service.

    25 Q. Let's move down the line on this chart, and

  44. 1 we'll go to the 111th Zepce Brigade, whose commander

    2 was Ivo Lovancic. Do you see it on the chart there,

    3 the 111th Zepce Brigade?

    4 A. I do, the 111th XP Brigade. The commander

    5 was Ivo Lozancic, as far as I know. I think you said

    6 Livancic, maybe it's a misinterpretation.

    7 Q. I'm sorry, Brigadier, I'm not essentially

    8 fluent with the names, and if I make a mistake, bear

    9 with me. Lozancic I'm sure is the right pronunciation,

    10 and I wouldn't want to quibble with you about that.

    11 Nevertheless, what is the military experience

    12 of Ivo Lozancic of the 111th Zepce Brigade?

    13 A. I don't know exactly, but I think that

    14 Mr. Lozancic hadn't even completed the school for

    15 reserve officers.

    16 Q. Would you be surprised to learn that he did?

    17 A. I said that I wasn't sure whether he had or

    18 not, so I can't claim anything. Because I didn't have

    19 much contact with Lozancic, because we were cut off in

    20 the period from '92 and throughout 1993, I was in Zepce

    21 only once.

    22 Q. Let's go down the list to Ban Jelacic Brigade

    23 in Kiseljak. We had a couple of commanders for the

    24 Bonn Jelacic Brigade; didn't we?

    25 A. As far as I can recall, the functions of

  45. 1 commander were performed by two people, one was Mijo

    2 Bozic and then Ivica Rajic.

    3 Q. You told us about Mijo Bozic, and he

    4 graduated from the military academy in the former JNA,

    5 and he was an active officer in the JNA prior to

    6 joining the HVO; wasn't he?

    7 A. Mijo Bozic did graduate from the military

    8 academy, and he held a position in the district staff

    9 of the Territorial Defence in Zenica. He was one of

    10 the assistants, I think, for intelligence work or

    11 something like that, I'm not quite sure.

    12 Q. How about the other gentleman about whom we

    13 heard some testimony who was a commander of the Ban

    14 Jelacic Brigade, Ivica Rajic. He was an active officer

    15 in the JNA before joining the HVO, wasn't he?

    16 A. Yes, I met Mr. Lozancic when we were

    17 establishing the defence line towards Travnik. As far

    18 as I remember, Mr. Rajic completed secondary military

    19 school. I don't exactly know which branch, but

    20 secondary military school and not military academy.

    21 Q. Well, was he an active officer in the JNA

    22 before he joined the HVO?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. So this is an example of an officer who

    25 didn't go to the military academy, but became an active

  46. 1 officer in the HVO, correct?

    2 A. Could you be more precise in your question,

    3 please?

    4 Q. Ivica Rajic did not go to the military

    5 academy, but he was an active officer in the JNA, isn't

    6 that right?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Now let's keep going down to the Kralj Tvrtko

    9 Brigade, the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade. Who was the

    10 commander of the Kralj Tvrtko Brigade?

    11 A. I can't recall the name. I visited the

    12 Commander of that Brigade once. I think it was a

    13 person called Neven and he was a corporal.

    14 Q. Well, do you recognise the name of Slavko

    15 Zelic, Z-e-l-i-c?

    16 A. Let me make sure I don't make a mistake. The

    17 Kralj Tvrtko Brigade. I got confused. You're talking

    18 about the Sarajevo Brigade. I'm sorry, I made an

    19 error. I did not know any of the officers in the Kralj

    20 Tvrtko Brigade because I was never able to visit the

    21 Commander of that Brigade.

    22 Q. Okay, fair enough. How about the next

    23 Brigade that's in that list and it's the Brigade in

    24 Busovaca, the Nikola Subic Zrinski Brigade? Whose

    25 Commander was Dusko Grubisic, was it not?

  47. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. What was Dusko Grubisic's military background

    3 before becoming a Brigade Commander in Busovaca?

    4 A. Dusko Grubisic didn't have any military

    5 education. Within the framework of his general

    6 education, he had a three-year secondary school for

    7 qualified work as it was called.

    8 Q. Is it your testimony that Dusko Grubisic did

    9 not go to reserve officer school?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Okay. Let's keep going on that list. The --

    12 -- and pardon my pronunciation -- the Kotromanic

    13 Brigade and that's in Kakanj. And Mr. Maric was the

    14 Commander there.

    15 A. I remember the name Neven, but also because

    16 we were cut off, I visited the Commander of this

    17 Brigade only once on my way back from Vares in 1992.

    18 Q. So do you have any knowledge as to his

    19 military experience?

    20 A. As far as I can recall, in the former JNA, he

    21 had the rank of lieutenant. This is a young officer

    22 who has only just graduated from the academy. I don't

    23 know whether he was active for a year or two, I cannot

    24 say, because I didn't personally know the mentioned

    25 Commander.

  48. 1 Q. So Mr. Maric also graduated from the JNA

    2 academy for the former JNA before he became an officer

    3 in the HVO?

    4 A. I cannot say for sure when talking about the

    5 Commander of the Kakanj Brigade whether he had

    6 graduated from the academy or not, but I think he had.

    7 Q. Well, he certainly was an active JNA officer

    8 before he joined the HVO, wasn't he?

    9 A. I am not familiar with that for sure.

    10 Q. Pardon me, Brigadier, didn't you just say

    11 that Mr. Marin was a lieutenant -- excuse me, Mr. Neven

    12 Maric was a lieutenant in the JNA?

    13 A. I said that as far as I can recall, but I am

    14 not sure, he was a lieutenant, and if he was a

    15 lieutenant, that means he graduated from the military

    16 academy. I visited the Commander of this Brigade

    17 once. Because we were cut off, I couldn't visit that

    18 Brigade.

    19 Q. Well, let's move down the list here to the

    20 Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade in Novi Travnik. Who was the

    21 Commander of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade?

    22 A. Commander of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade in

    23 Novi Travnik was Zeljko Sabljic.

    24 Q. What was his military background before he

    25 joined the HVO?

  49. 1 A. Zeljko Sabljic had graduated from the academy

    2 for reserve officers, and he specialised in electrical

    3 engineering, and he was never an active service officer

    4 of the former JNA.

    5 Q. Let's talk about the Travnik Brigade and Jozo

    6 Leutar?

    7 A. You mean Jozo Leutar?

    8 Q. Again pardon my pronunciation Brigadier. Do

    9 you know Mr. Leutar?

    10 A. I met Mr. Leutar when he assumed the duty of

    11 the Commander of the Travnik Brigade. As far as I

    12 know, he was an official in the Ministry of the

    13 Interior before the war. I am not sure whether he had

    14 any military training before the war.

    15 Q. Do you know if he was a reserve officer, had

    16 gone through the reserve officer training?

    17 A. You could not have been that if you had not

    18 had any reserve officer training, which took about six

    19 months to complete.

    20 Q. So, in your opinion, Mr. Leutar did go to the

    21 reserve officer training school?

    22 A. I did not say that and I do not know this. I

    23 only know that before the war, Mr. Leutar worked in the

    24 Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Bosnia and

    25 Herzegovina.

  50. 1 Q. Brigadier, let's move down another notch in

    2 the strata within these Brigade structures and the HVO,

    3 and let's talk about the military experience that is

    4 off the chart that's before you, and talk about some of

    5 the officer corps in these various Brigades that we've

    6 been discussing.

    7 Let's start with the 111th Zepce Brigade, the

    8 111th XP Brigade. And pardon my pronunciation again

    9 here, Brigadier, but do you know Drago Dragicevic?

    10 A. Yes, I do know Drago Dragicevic.

    11 Q. Was he a member in the 111th Zepce Brigade?

    12 A. Can you please ask a more specific question,

    13 if possible.

    14 Q. Well, was he a Commander for the HVO in

    15 Zepce?

    16 A. What time period are you referring to?

    17 Q. In any time period. Was he ever an officer

    18 in the JNA? Any kind of a Commander of a Brigade, of a

    19 Battalion, anything?

    20 A. As far as I know, Drago Dragicevic did not

    21 graduate from a military academy, so, in other words,

    22 he was not an officer of the former Yugoslav People's

    23 Army.

    24 Q. Did he go to the reserve officer training

    25 school?

  51. 1 A. As far as I know, he did.

    2 Q. Okay. Let's move to another officer that is

    3 in the headquarters, Ivica Cobanac. Do you know that

    4 gentleman?

    5 A. I do know Mr. Cobanac. He was in the

    6 Operative Zone command and, as far as I know, he was

    7 there for about two or three months and then he was

    8 transferred to another duty.

    9 Q. What was he transferred to?

    10 A. If I can just further clarify this, during

    11 1993, Brigadier Cobanac did not work in the Operative

    12 Zone command, but he was Commander of a company in

    13 Sebesic, which was his birth place.

    14 Q. When was Mr. Cobanac in the Central Bosnian

    15 Operative Zone headquarters?

    16 A. I cannot say the precise time frame, but I

    17 know that this was during 1992. This was in '92. Just

    18 a moment, let me try to remember. So that would be

    19 '92, towards the end, and occasionally he would come

    20 in early 1993. He would come from Sebesic of his birth

    21 place he would come to our headquarters.

    22 Q. Now he graduated from the JNA military

    23 academy just like Colonel Blaskic, didn't he?

    24 A. No, he graduated from a military college,

    25 which was a two-year military school. I believe that

  52. 1 he was a Commander, a platoon Commander in the former

    2 Yugoslav People's Army and his rank, I think was

    3 lieutenant, which is the lowest commission officer rank

    4 in the former JNA.

    5 Q. Well, would it surprise you that Mr. Cobanac

    6 was a captain when he left the JNA and joined the HVO?

    7 A. I wouldn't be surprised because I never

    8 looked at his personal file. I am just speaking on the

    9 basis of what he told me because after '95, we worked

    10 together.

    11 Q. So, Brigadier, just let's recapitulate

    12 something you just noted for the Court. So, in

    13 addition to active officers in the JNA, many have gone

    14 to the military academy like the accused, and they had

    15 reserve officers. There was also a two-year military

    16 college for officers in the JNA as well; is that

    17 right?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. That's the one that Mr. Cobanac went to?

    20 A. As far as I know, that is what he graduated

    21 from. This is what he told me. Again, I did not see

    22 his personal file.

    23 Q. Now, in the OP zone command in Vitez was

    24 Franjo Gojsilovic, pardon my pronunciation, Gojsilovic,

    25 Goj, G-o-j-s-i-l-o-v-i-c?

  53. 1 A. I am not familiar with that name. Could you

    2 perhaps describe his position so I may recall. But the

    3 name that you just mentioned, I just do not recall.

    4 Q. I wouldn't put it past the fact that my

    5 pronunciation on this subject, Brigadier, is something

    6 less than accurate. Nevertheless, was a gentleman by

    7 the name of Franjo in operations and training body

    8 within the OP zone headquarters in Vitez?

    9 A. I don't know him, but I know that there were

    10 two men by the name of Franjo in the OP zone command.

    11 Later on, maybe even up to four. But there were two,

    12 there were Franjo Nakic and Franjo Slikovic.

    13 Q. I may have written the name wrong.

    14 Brigadier, we'll pass on this Franjo and move to Ivica

    15 Miskovic in the Viteska Brigade. Do you know that

    16 gentleman? Miskovic.

    17 A. Ivica Miskovic in the Vitez Brigade, can you

    18 perhaps tell me what duty he was on? Because there

    19 were a lot of changes in the headquarters.

    20 Q. He was in the Vitez Brigade. He was an

    21 officer in the Vitez Brigade. He had been a reserve

    22 officer. Had gone to reserve officer school and was a

    23 lieutenant officer in the former JNA and during the war

    24 he was in the Viteska Brigade under Mario Cerkez.

    25 A. Could you specify the time frame? You know

  54. 1 why, because I would go to help out in the Viteska

    2 Brigade and I then got to know this man. This was in

    3 1993. It was in November/December. This was to help

    4 out after the Krizanicevo Selo was attacked by the BH

    5 army and we had a lot of losses, so we had to give them

    6 assistance. During that period, I did not meet this

    7 person. However, if I knew the exact time frame and

    8 the duty, then I may be able to provide you an answer.

    9 But as you pronounce this name, I really cannot recall

    10 it.

    11 Q. I don't blame you, Brigadier. We'll move to

    12 another name. Marinko and I am not going to pronounce

    13 this name correctly, Ljoyjo, L-j-o-y-j-o, in the Ban

    14 Jelacic Brigade in Kiseljak Brigade, are you familiar

    15 with that name?

    16 A. Marinko Ljoyjo I did meet, and this was after

    17 the Washington Agreement. I met him at the Kupres

    18 front-line during the last operations for the liberation

    19 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I do not know exactly what

    20 duty he was on during the war because Kiseljak was cut

    21 off. I know far fewer people that in a case of

    22 Travnik, Novi Travnik, Busovaca and Vitez formations.

    23 Q. Well, had he been a reserve officer in the

    24 JNA prior to joining the HVO holding the rank of

    25 lieutenant?

  55. 1 A. I do not know that with respect to Marinko

    2 Ljoyjo.

    3 Q. How about Igor Bosnjak? Do you know

    4 Mr. Bosnjak?

    5 A. What Brigade is he from?

    6 Q. He worked in your headquarters, sir. Igor

    7 Bosnjak.

    8 A. Could you specify the duty?

    9 Q. Who was in charge of IPD?

    10 A. I am not familiar with that name. I am not

    11 aware of this person being in the OP zone headquarters.

    12 Q. Okay, sir. We'll move back to the Viteska

    13 Brigade, Alojz Gasparovic. Are you familiar with an

    14 officer in the Viteska Brigade by the name of

    15 Gasparovic?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Zeljko, and this is the Stjepan Tomasevic

    18 Brigade, Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade from Novi Travnik,

    19 your hometown, Zeljko Sablec, S-a-b-l-e-c? Who was

    20 he?

    21 A. Zeljko Sablec was Commander of the Stjepan

    22 Tomasevic Brigade. I had said that he had graduated

    23 from the reserve officers training school, specialising

    24 in engineering. I know that he worked in the Bratsko

    25 company and that's all I know. He lived in the town of

  56. 1 Novi Travnik.

    2 Q. Likewise, within that Brigade, sir, Ilija

    3 Marin, also in the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade, are you

    4 familiar with Mr. Marin?

    5 A. Yes, I do know Mr. Marin.

    6 Q. Was he a captain in the -- a reserve captain

    7 in the former JNA?

    8 A. Mr. Marin was not in the former JNA.

    9 Q. Was not?

    10 A. He was not in the former JNA. But are you

    11 asking me whether he was an active duty person? Was he

    12 in reserves? If you can specify the question so I can

    13 give you a precise answer.

    14 Q. I am asking you whether or not Mr. Marin,

    15 like you and like so many others, went to the reserve

    16 officers training school for the former JNA and held

    17 the rank of captain?

    18 A. Mr. Marin did go to the reserve officers

    19 training school, which lasted for six months. He was a

    20 reserve captain. He had a rank of the reserve

    21 captain. As far as I recall, in this former

    22 Territorial Defence, he was a company Commander. This

    23 is what we were trained for in this school for reserve

    24 officers.

    25 Q. Let us move to the Travnik Brigade, if I may,

  57. 1 sir. And you said you know officers in the Travnik

    2 Brigade and Novi Travnik Brigade, the Vitez Brigade.

    3 Dario Sucic, S-u-c-i-c, of the Travnik Brigade, do you

    4 know Mr. Sucic?

    5 A. You mean Dario Sucic?

    6 Q. That's probably what I mean, Brigadier.

    7 A. I do know Dario Sucic. He, as far as I know,

    8 went to the secondary military school and specialised

    9 in communications.

    10 Q. Was he an active officer in the JNA?

    11 A. He was not an active service officer. He was

    12 a junior officer. In other words, he was a

    13 non-commissioned officer.

    14 Q. He was a non-commissioned officer in the JNA;

    15 is that what you're saying?

    16 A. Yes, yes. This in NATO it is

    17 non-commissioned officers. In local nomenclature, it's

    18 junior officer.

    19 Q. Right. As a junior officer, was he an active

    20 junior officer in the JNA?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. What did he do in the HVO?

    23 A. As far as I know, he was the chief of

    24 communications in the Travnik Brigade. Later, until

    25 1995, he changed his posts.

  58. 1 Q. Let us shift gears and go down Busovaca,

    2 Brigadier, and let's talk about the Nikola Subic Zrnski

    3 Brigade and Jure Cavara. Are you familiar with

    4 Mr. Cavara?

    5 A. You mean Jure Cavara?

    6 Q. Once again, probably.

    7 A. Yes, I do know Mr. Jure Cavara.

    8 Q. Was he a reserve officer in the JNA as well,

    9 holding the rank of lieutenant or was he a captain?

    10 A. Yes, Jure did graduate from the reserve

    11 officer training school. I do not know his exact rank

    12 as reserve officer. From the civilian education, I

    13 believe that he had some kind of a secondary school of

    14 economics, at least that is what he told me.

    15 Q. Okay, sir, let's go down to Kiseljak and talk

    16 about a Commander down there by the name of Mario

    17 Bradara, do you know Mr. Bradara, sir?

    18 A. Yes, I do know Mr. Bradara, we met during the

    19 war.

    20 Q. He still carries a rank in the armed forces,

    21 does he not?

    22 A. Mario Bradara is currently a commander of the

    23 3rd Guard Brigade.

    24 Q. What rank does he hold as a Commander of the

    25 3rd Guard Brigade?

  59. 1 A. Mario Bradara as Commander of the 3rd Guard

    2 Brigade, has a rank of Brigadier. I cannot exactly

    3 recall when he was appointed to this duty, but I know

    4 that it was after the Dayton Agreement.

    5 Q. What experience in the JNA and military

    6 training for the JNA did now Brigadier Bradara have?

    7 A. As far as I know, he only did his regular

    8 military service in the JNA. And as far as his

    9 civilian education is concerned, I think that he had

    10 some kind of secondary school of trade or something. I

    11 know that after the Dayton Agreement, as soon as the

    12 Dayton Agreement, he has been to several training

    13 courses of military nature.

    14 Q. Well, sir, did he graduate from either the

    15 military academy that the accused graduated from, or

    16 the two-year military school that Mr. Cobanac went to?

    17 A. As far as I know, he doesn't have either a

    18 college or military academy. I don't think that he was

    19 ever in active service in the former JNA either as an

    20 officer or as a non-commissioned officer.

    21 Q. Okay, sir. Let's move back to Zenica and

    22 talk about the Jure Francetic Brigade, the one that we

    23 talked about that Mr. Zivko Totic was a Commander of.

    24 Do you know a gentleman by the name of Zeljko

    25 Ljubanic?

  60. 1 A. I do know Mr. Ljubanic. I believe that he

    2 was a battalion Commander in the Jure Francetic

    3 Brigade.

    4 Q. Did he go to the military school and was he

    5 an active officer in the JNA prior to joining the HVO?

    6 A. As far as I know, no, he did not.

    7 Q. Well, as far as you know, Brigadier, what was

    8 his prior military background before joining the HVO?

    9 A. As far as I know, he had no previous military

    10 experience except the experience he gained during his

    11 regular military service, which he served like any

    12 other citizen who had this national duty.

    13 Q. So as far as you know, you do not know

    14 anything about Mr. Ljubanic carrying the rank of

    15 lieutenant in the JNA?

    16 A. I really do not know that.

    17 Q. Let's turn our attention to the military

    18 police. (redacted)

    19 A. (redacted)

    20 Q. What's his military background in the JNA?

    21 A. As far as I know, (redacted) did not

    22 have military academy or a military college. As far as

    23 I know, he graduated from the school for physical

    24 education (redacted)

    25 (redacted).

  61. 1 Q. Brigadier, is it your testimony he did or did

    2 not go to this military college?

    3 A. He did not go to either the military academy

    4 or military college.

    5 Q. Let's talk about the Ban Jelacic Brigade

    6 again, and Josip Tolo?

    7 A. Yes, I do know Mr. Josip Tolo.

    8 Q. What was his military experience in the JNA?

    9 A. As far as I know, he graduated from the

    10 reserve officer training school.

    11 Q. And what rank did he hold?

    12 A. I do not know which rank he held as a reserve

    13 officer in the former Territorial Defence or the former

    14 JNA.

    15 Q. What did he do in the HVO?

    16 A. He was in different duties. I think he was

    17 also the Chief of Staff in the command of Ban Jelacic

    18 Brigade, and I think he was the commander of the

    19 Kresevska Battalion. I cannot list all of his duties,

    20 but he is now, he holds the post of the Chief of Staff

    21 of the brigade for urgent interventions in the

    22 federation army.

    23 Q. How about Dragan Stojkovic, do you know

    24 Dragan Stojkovic?

    25 A. As far as I can recall, I do not know such a

  62. 1 person; but if you give me any more specific

    2 information I may be able to recall.

    3 Q. Who was the chief quartermaster in the

    4 Central Bosnian Operative Zone?

    5 A. In the period between 1992 and the Washington

    6 Agreement, I think that two officers occupied that; I

    7 think that could have been Dragan Tomic, the

    8 quartermaster. Did you have him in mind?

    9 Q. Was Dragan Tomic the quartermaster within the

    10 Central Bosnian Operative Zone?

    11 A. As far as I recall, yes, he was. It was

    12 Dragan Tomic, and the Dragan Tomic I'm referring to is

    13 from Kresevo.

    14 Q. What was his military experience in the

    15 former JNA?

    16 A. I am not sure, but I believe that he had

    17 graduated from the reserve officer training school.

    18 But I'm sure that he did not graduate from either the

    19 military academy or college.

    20 Q. Let's go back to the Viteska Brigade and talk

    21 about Zoran Vuleta; are you familiar with that

    22 gentleman?

    23 A. I can't recall. If you could tell me what

    24 duties he had, perhaps I could remember.

    25 Q. I don't want to mislead you, I can't tell you

  63. 1 that accurately. How about Nikola Subic-Zrinjski

    2 Brigade, Zarko Petrovic?

    3 A. I know Zarko Petrovic.

    4 Q. What was his experience in the former JNA?

    5 A. As far as I can recall, he did not attend

    6 military academy, nor a higher military school; but I

    7 met Zarko Petrovic during the war, and we have known

    8 each other since then. I didn't discuss with him what

    9 his educational background is, but as far as I know, he

    10 had not graduated from the military academy.

    11 Q. Well, sir, he was a reserve officer in the

    12 JNA, he went to the reserve officer training school of

    13 the JNA and held the rank of captain; didn't he?

    14 A. I cannot claim that.

    15 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the Viteska Brigade;

    16 do you know Vlado Starcevic?

    17 A. I don't know Vlado Starcevic, at least I

    18 cannot remember who that man is.

    19 Q. In the Travnik Brigade, Vlado Sikiric,

    20 S-I-K-I-R-I-C also known as Vis, V-I-S; do you know

    21 that gentleman?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. What's his background in the former JNA?

    24 A. As far as I know, he had no military

    25 experience. Vlado Sikiric is today my next door

  64. 1 neighbour.

    2 Q. Well, do you know that he had gone to the

    3 reserve officer training school and held the rank of

    4 captain -- excuse me, lieutenant?

    5 A. I don't know that, even though we are

    6 neighbours today, so I'm not sure whether he did or did

    7 not.

    8 Q. Let's talk about the military intelligence

    9 section of the Operative Zone Central Bosnia. Do you

    10 know Zvonko Bajo?

    11 A. I do.

    12 Q. What's his military experience in the former

    13 JNA?

    14 A. I think he completed the school for reserve

    15 officers.

    16 Q. What rank did he hold in the former JNA as a

    17 reserve officer?

    18 A. I'm not able to tell you, because Zvonko Bajo

    19 comes from the municipality of Travnik, and I come from

    20 Novi Travnik. I don't know exactly. I think he may

    21 have been a lieutenant or a captain. It depends when

    22 he did his military service.

    23 Mr. President, Your Honours, if we say a

    24 reserve officer, that he had the rank of captain, let

    25 me tell you how he acquired that rank. You could

  65. 1 acquire the rank of captain in the former Yugoslav

    2 People's Army as a reserve officer, which means you

    3 would be doing your regular duties and you would be

    4 called up for drills and training exercises and then

    5 you go back to your regular duties.

    6 As far as I recall, the law regulated the

    7 system of promotion. When you completed the school for

    8 reserve officers, you would be given the rank of

    9 lieutenant; then you would have to wait four or five

    10 years and spend so many days exercising, then you would

    11 become a first lieutenant; and then again after four or

    12 five years you would acquire the rank of captain.

    13 After that, again, after a period of four or

    14 five years, you would become captain first class, and

    15 for higher ranks, you would have to have a certain

    16 duty, according to the organisational chart. To become

    17 a major you would have to have a particular position in

    18 that organisation. So, I have mentioned this period of

    19 15 or 20 years that it took for somebody to become a

    20 captain or captain first class.

    21 So, when we are talking about the ranks of

    22 these people, and when I say that he's a captain, I

    23 don't want you to have the impression that that means

    24 that he has any special training, or special abilities;

    25 because that captain may be less qualified than

  66. 1 somebody who has appropriate military training and a

    2 lower rank.

    3 Because for him to become a captain, 15 years

    4 have gone by, and he may have had throughout that

    5 period of 20 years no more than 15 days of training,

    6 because that was the system in place at the time.

    7 Q. Well, let's talk about now, let's go back to

    8 the Viteska Brigade and the second in command, Zarko

    9 Saric. Do you know Mr. Saric, S-A-R-I-C?

    10 A. I do know Mr. Saric. As far as I know, he

    11 was not deputy commander of the brigade. He was the

    12 commander of the 2nd Battalion that had its command

    13 post in Bila, which was 200 metres from UNPROFOR.

    14 Q. Was he a reserve officer from the former JNA?

    15 A. He had three years secondary school for

    16 skilled workers and the school for reserve officers;

    17 yes, he did complete that training.

    18 Q. What rank did he hold as a reserve officer in

    19 the JNA?

    20 A. I'm not quite sure, but I think that he was

    21 first lieutenant. Because before the war he lived in

    22 Vitez municipality, I lived in the municipality of Novi

    23 Travnik, so I met him, too, during the war.

    24 I am saying this to the best of my

    25 recollection. We didn't discuss what rank he had,

  67. 1 whether he was captain or lieutenant, but I think he

    2 was lieutenant.

    3 Q. Let's talk, again, Brigadier, about the Jure

    4 Francetic Brigade in Zenica and Drago Dujmovic

    5 D-U-J-M-O-V-I-C; what was his military training in the

    6 JNA?

    7 A. I'm sorry, did you say we're talking about

    8 the Jure Francetic Brigade?

    9 Q. What I'm saying, Brigadier, is that Drago

    10 Dujmovic, D-U-J-M-O-V-I-C, was in the Jure Francetic

    11 Brigade in the HVO; and my question to you, Brigadier,

    12 is: What was his training in the JNA prior to joining

    13 the HVO?

    14 A. Drago Dujmovic was not in the Jure Francetic

    15 Brigade, because I know him well. We shared the same

    16 room in the hotel during the war. So, I know that he

    17 was not in the Jure Francetic Brigade.

    18 Q. Where was he?

    19 A. Drago Dujmovic is from Kakanj. I don't know

    20 exactly what duty he had in the municipal headquarters,

    21 but in the Operative Zone command, I know he engaged in

    22 political work and that he has no military training.

    23 Q. Did he have any training in the JNA at all?

    24 A. Nothing more than having done his regular

    25 military service like any other citizen. As far as I

  68. 1 know, he went to a school for priests.

    2 Q. Let's talk about the military police, again.

    3 Do you know a man by the name of D-E-O-R-J-C-A , Jonic,

    4 J-O-N-I-C; does that name sound familiar to you?

    5 A. Jonic, no, but Jonjic, yes.

    6 Q. Okay, Jonjic; what did he do in the HVO?

    7 A. Could you give me his first name, please?

    8 Because there are several Jonjics.

    9 Q. I do think, I could be incorrect in this

    10 spelling, Brigadier, so bear with me once again.

    11 D-O-E-R-I-C-A.

    12 A. I don't know any Doerica Jonjic.

    13 Q. Roland Sajevic, S-A-J-E-V-I-C?

    14 A. Could you please tell me his first name?

    15 Because there were several Sajevics in Vitez, so I need

    16 the first name to give you a precise answer to the

    17 question you're putting to me.

    18 Q. I believe his first name is Roland,

    19 R-O-L-A-N-D.

    20 A. I do know Roland Sajevic.

    21 Q. What did he do for the HVO?

    22 A. All the duties? I'm not familiar with all

    23 the duties when in the HVO, but I do know that for a

    24 time he was a member of the Vitezovi.

    25 Q. What was his training in the former JNA?

  69. 1 A. I'm afraid I'm not able to say now, because

    2 the structure of the Vitezovi, that is the offices in

    3 that unit, I was not very familiar with; because I

    4 didn't go and supervise that unit, so I couldn't check

    5 on that.

    6 Q. Let's go talk about the Frankopan Brigade in

    7 Guca Gora; and do you know a gentleman by the name of

    8 Marinko Matosevic?

    9 A. Yes, I do know Marinko Matosevic.

    10 Q. What is his training in the former JNA?

    11 A. I know that he hadn't graduated from the

    12 academy or the higher military school, that in civilian

    13 life he graduated from the secondary school or from the

    14 school for skilled workers; but I think that he didn't

    15 have the training of reserve officers. But he was the

    16 commander of a battalion, so I didn't communicate much

    17 with him.

    18 Q. Prior to joining the HVO, was Mr. Bertovic a

    19 non-commissioned officer, an active non-commissioned

    20 officer in the JNA?

    21 A. Anto Bertovic, as far as I can recall,

    22 completed the higher military school; and what position

    23 he held in the JNA and what rank he had, I couldn't

    24 say, but I don't think it could have been higher than a

    25 lieutenant. He was in the command of a platoon,

  70. 1 therefore, in the former JNA, that is my assumption,

    2 and I know him well.

    3 Q. So, Anto Bertovic went to the higher, excuse

    4 me, did he go to the two-year school?

    5 A. As far as I know, he went to the two-year,

    6 the higher school, as it was called, in the former

    7 army.

    8 Q. Then did he get an officer rank in the JNA?

    9 A. With that school, when you graduated from

    10 that school you would get an officer rank, the rank of

    11 a lieutenant. That is the first rank of officers.

    12 With those ranks, you could be commander of a platoon,

    13 or deputy platoon commander.

    14 Q. Did he hold that rank at the time he left the

    15 JNA and joined the HVO?

    16 A. I don't know that, because Anto Bertovic is

    17 for Vitez, so I don't know exactly when he left the JNA

    18 and when he reported where, because I didn't inquire

    19 about that in detail.

    20 Q. I realise you told us, Brigadier, that you

    21 didn't know many officers down in the Bobovac Brigade

    22 in Vares, but I would like to ask you about this

    23 gentleman, nevertheless, his name is Mario Andric; do

    24 you know Mr. Andric, and do you know of his officer

    25 training in the JNA?

  71. 1 A. I met Andric after the Washington Agreement.

    2 I don't know exactly what military training he had, but

    3 I think he was not an active officer in the JNA. I

    4 think he had completed secondary school, civilian

    5 secondary school.

    6 Q. I don't mean to press you on this, Brigadier,

    7 just tell us if you don't know; do you know if he went

    8 to the reserve officers training school and held the

    9 rank of captain?

    10 A. I cannot tell, but in view of the age, of his

    11 age, I don't think he had the rank of captain, because

    12 I have just explained the procedure that was required

    13 for one to become a captain.

    14 Let me explain through my own example. I

    15 graduated from two, I majored in two subjects, I was 35

    16 years old just before the war, and I had the rank of

    17 reserve captain; and Mario is much younger than me.

    18 Q. Let's turn --

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me, Mr. Kehoe, excuse me

    20 for interrupting you. I would like to take about a

    21 15-minute break. Do you still have many questions on

    22 this subject?

    23 A. Yes, I do, Mr. President.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: I'm asking that question

    25 because I suppose that what you are getting at is to

  72. 1 show the witness that the assertion claiming that the

    2 leadership of the brigades did not have any military

    3 training, you are trying to show that they did have

    4 military training.

    5 Couldn't you perhaps think of a way to go a

    6 little bit faster; perhaps not ask the witness

    7 directly, but instead ask him whether he recognises

    8 that there was in fact military training among these

    9 leaders?

    10 Because if we have to spend, go through every

    11 single area, or every zone of the HVO, it is going to

    12 take a very long time, and he should be completed with

    13 his testimony by the end of the week.

    14 I do understand what you're trying to do, but

    15 isn't there another way to go about doing it?

    16 MR. KEHOE: I think the fastest way is to cut

    17 down on the list, and I will not go through as many as

    18 I intended to do; but I will say that, Mr. President,

    19 the amount of officers in the HVO in this area with

    20 military training is significant, and it defies this

    21 statement.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps that's the question

    23 that should be asked of the witness directly. I'll ask

    24 him the question. Because otherwise we will never end.

    25 General, you said that they did not have any

  73. 1 training; do you accept that in fact they had better

    2 training than what you said initially? Otherwise you

    3 have to understand that the Prosecutor is going to ask

    4 you about every single person there in the brigades.

    5 I'm trying move things forward because I'm here to

    6 centre the discussions. I understand where you are

    7 going, but we have to move forward.

    8 Do you continue to state that the brigades

    9 were not led by individuals with military training,

    10 which is what you said? I remember clearly you did say

    11 that, you said it was kind of a family army.

    12 Having heard all of these examples that have

    13 been given for more than an hour, do you agree that

    14 military training was in fact better than you initially

    15 said? And possibly you could go through a list.

    16 A. Mr. President, in my testimony last week I

    17 said literally the following: In the command of the

    18 Operative Zone and in the brigade commands, we did not

    19 have trained officers with appropriate military

    20 training and experience. May I add a few words to

    21 explain what I meant?

    22 In the Operative Zone command, and in

    23 peacetime conditions, or let us say according to NATO

    24 standards, to be a commander of an Operative Zone, you

    25 would have to have the highest staff schools, not just

  74. 1 academy. And for all duties --

    2 JUDGE JORDA: No, General, let's not play

    3 with words. I simply will not get into that kind of a

    4 game. It's a very simple question that I'm asking.

    5 You've got to try to see the full context.

    6 The Judges are here to see that full context,

    7 and then afterwards, it is all right to have

    8 discussions, but that's not what I'm here for.

    9 You said that the military training in the

    10 HVO, because that's what we're talking about, was, in

    11 fact, the HVO a trained army? You claimed, you said

    12 that there was no really trained leaders.

    13 I do understand that the Prosecutor is trying

    14 to show the opposite. It's the way that he is showing

    15 it.

    16 Either you continue to say what you said, and

    17 then I could understand that the Prosecution has to go

    18 through the entire list of the leaders, and then you

    19 would not be able to go home for several weeks, because

    20 this is going to take a great amount of time.

    21 In fact, Mr. Kehoe, your cross-examination,

    22 how much time do you expect to take?

    23 MR. KEHOE: It's going to take a little

    24 while, Judge. He has a lot of people here with

    25 military training. That's difficult to know.

  75. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Well, you see how, where we

    2 are. I'm trying to move things forward a little bit.

    3 Mr. Nobilo.

    4 MR. NOBILO: Maybe I can be of assistance.

    5 That is why I have asked to speak. I shall try to.

    6 Brigadier Marin said that in the command and in the

    7 brigades they didn't have people with military academy

    8 and professional military experience. They didn't have

    9 enough people with that training and experience. They

    10 said that they had three officers who had graduated

    11 from the academy. He wasn't talking about reservists.

    12 So, could my learned friend, Kehoe, focus on

    13 the officers who had military academy and active

    14 military experience in the JNA?

    15 We can accept that the witness was a reserve

    16 officer, but we're talking about professional officers

    17 who had graduated from the military academy. There

    18 were only three in the command and one or two in the

    19 brigades, and later on we can explain why this is

    20 important.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: We are going to take a break

    22 and think about things. We heard what Mr. Nobilo said,

    23 they were active officers; and, in fact, if you ask all

    24 of your questions about the reserve officers, there is

    25 going to be no challenge.

  76. 1 I don't know if you will have succeeded in

    2 the questions you want to ask; but a final comment I

    3 would like to make, and we will then take a 15-minute

    4 break. I want to call your attention to that.

    5 What did you want to say, Mr. Kehoe?

    6 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, Mr. President, the

    7 fact of the matter is that this witness said in

    8 response to questions by Mr. Nobilo that, "Let me

    9 remind you that in the brigade commands we did not have

    10 officers, enough officers who had proper military

    11 training."

    12 They had officers with reams of training that

    13 went on for years, unlike most countries in the world.

    14 He, himself, holding the rank of captain, has eight

    15 years of training in various capacities.

    16 So the fact of the matter is this was a

    17 highly trained group of people, much more so than a

    18 country such as France or United States, where

    19 conscription doesn't exist.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: All right. I think we have all

    21 listened to what is being said here. In any case, you

    22 have a different idea of what we're talking about.

    23 What I would like is for things to go more quickly.

    24 We're going to take a break and try to

    25 concentrate your questions, if you need to make a list,

  77. 1 and say we, the Prosecution, we consider that the

    2 officer X, Y, Z, had training as a reservist and that

    3 will be the end of that. During the final arguments

    4 Mr. Hayman or Mr. Nobilo will say what they wish to say

    5 about that question.

    6 We're now going to take a 15-minute break,

    7 and I ask that you concentrate your questions exactly

    8 on the points that are in question.

    9 --- Recess taken at 4.55 p.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 5.20 p.m.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing will now resume,

    12 have the accused brought in.

    13 (The accused entered court)

    14 Mr. Kehoe, it seems to me that what we're

    15 going to do now is clear, the discussion, in fact, is

    16 clear. The Defence considers that it was academic

    17 training that is being underscored by the witness. You

    18 say that it is the leadership and the military training

    19 as re service. That's what you speak about and since

    20 you don't agree on that point, and you can argue this

    21 at the end of the case and the Judges will evaluate as

    22 they do. Couldn't you try to simplify the question?

    23 Because up to this point the witness has not

    24 contradicted you. All the individuals that you are

    25 referring to, in fact, had some type of military

  78. 1 training. The disagreement stems from the fact that

    2 for the Defence there was a certain standard of

    3 military training which is important, but for you it is

    4 a different standard. What I am trying to do is to

    5 simplify things, otherwise we're going to be dealing

    6 with this very issue tomorrow. Thank you.

    7 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I discussed with

    8 my colleagues and I think we have a way to kind of

    9 short circuit going through all of the officers and all

    10 of the commanders at the Brigade and battalion level

    11 and I think we can do that quickly and maybe with a

    12 series of questions.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much.

    14 MR. KEHOE:

    15 Q. Brigadier, there are other commanders at the

    16 brigade and the battalion level, at least, that we

    17 haven't mentioned, names I haven't mentioned today,

    18 isn't that right? I am saying the brigade and the

    19 battalion level within the HVO and the Central Bosnia

    20 Operative Zone?

    21 A. Yes, that is correct.

    22 Q. Were there other officers whose names name I

    23 didn't mention with reserve officer training similar to

    24 yours?

    25 A. I shall try and recall exactly. As far as I

  79. 1 can remember, in the whole operation zone, there were,

    2 perhaps, perhaps, two or three other men with the same

    3 kind of training as myself.

    4 Q. Were there other officers that we haven't

    5 mentioned that had gone either to the military academy

    6 or had gone to the higher military school that you

    7 mentioned that Mr. Cobanac discussed?

    8 A. As far as I can remember, as we have just

    9 been saying, I think we omitted to mention Miro Boric.

    10 I think you mentioned all those officers who had

    11 graduated from military academy and that we have

    12 covered those questions.

    13 Q. Now, Brigadier, with all of these reserve

    14 officers in the JNA during a time of war, the plan of

    15 the Yugoslav People's Army was to mobilise these

    16 reserve officers; isn't that correct?

    17 A. Yes, if an aggression were to take place,

    18 depending on the scale of the aggression.

    19 Q. These reserve officers, such as yourself and

    20 the others that we mentioned, operated and were trained

    21 by the JNA in a fundamental principle that you

    22 discussed last week and that was the unity of command;

    23 isn't that right?

    24 A. Within the framework for officers in reserve

    25 schools, I can't tell you exactly how many lessons we

  80. 1 had about this, but we did study control and command

    2 and its organisation up to the level of company.

    3 Q. Mr. Dubuisson, if we could give the witness,

    4 Defence Exhibit 252. I have it, yes, thank you.

    5 Again, I don't know if this is going to be able to be

    6 seen by the Brigadier if we put it on the ELMO. I

    7 don't know if counsel has an extra copy for the

    8 Brigadier to look at while it's on the ELMO.

    9 MR. KEHOE: It's a little difficult to see,

    10 Mr. President, if it's on the ELMO for the witness.

    11 Q. Can you see that okay, Brigadier, or do you

    12 actually want to look at the copy? I realise it's

    13 difficult to see.

    14 A. If possible, I would like to have a copy in

    15 my hands because I can't read the letters well.

    16 MR. KEHOE: With apologies to the gallery,

    17 Mr. President, if we could give this copy to the

    18 witness.

    19 Q. Now, Brigadier, you see Exhibit 252 and I

    20 believe that was an exhibit that was discussed last

    21 week between you and Mr. Nobilo.

    22 A. Yes, that is that document.

    23 Q. Now, Brigadier, all of the commanders that we

    24 have been talking about today are assigned various

    25 spots, these commanders with reserve officer training

  81. 1 or military academy training or secondary, higher

    2 training within the JNA, all those names that you

    3 mentioned today, they're interspersed on these various

    4 command levels, aren't they?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Because that is essential for this particular

    7 flow, as you pointed out on your direct examination, is

    8 essential for the unity of command, isn't it?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 MR. KEHOE: Now, let me turn to one last

    11 exhibit before we move on into another area,

    12 Mr. President, and that is Defence Exhibit 183/3.

    13 Mr. Dubuisson, it's the exhibit that I

    14 mentioned earlier today.

    15 Q. Now, Brigadier, this is a chart that was

    16 presented by the Defence through Admiral Domzet. Do

    17 you know Admiral Domzet from the armed forces of the

    18 Republic of Croatia?

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, for the

    20 transcript, this was 182/3.

    21 THE WITNESS: Personally I do not know

    22 General Domzet, but I do know that he holds the duties

    23 in the main staff of the army of the Republic of

    24 Croatia.

    25 MR. KEHOE:

  82. 1 Q. Well, according to his chart, Brigadier, the

    2 Serbs had 63.2 per cent of the officers in the JNA

    3 prior to 1990, and that the Croats had 12.6 officers in

    4 the JNA while the Muslims had 2.4. Do you see that

    5 chart, sir?

    6 A. Yes, I do.

    7 Q. Do you agree with those numbers?

    8 A. I cannot confirm that these numbers are

    9 correct because I never saw them, nor do I know their

    10 source, so that I cannot claim that this is correct or

    11 incorrect. But I would like to say something else.

    12 Are these figures for the whole of Yugoslavia?

    13 Q. For the whole of Yugoslavia, sir.

    14 A. As far as I know, my figures will be rough

    15 figures. They were about 5 million Croats in the whole

    16 of Yugoslavia, and as far as I know, close to 2 million

    17 Bosniak Muslims, and then these figures have to be

    18 compared in order to make the proper conclusions. So,

    19 I repeat, I am not sure that these figures are correct

    20 because these figures were presented by General Domzet

    21 and not myself.

    22 Q. Well, Brigadier, according to these charts,

    23 the Croats, be they from the Republic of Croatia or

    24 Croats from Bosnia-Herzegovina, had significantly more

    25 trained officers in the JNA than the Muslims did; isn't

  83. 1 that true?

    2 A. I cannot answer your question in the

    3 affirmative if you base your question on this chart,

    4 the correctness of which I cannot confirm. But in view

    5 of the number of the population, the number of Croats

    6 in the former Yugoslavia and the number of Muslims,

    7 Bosniaks in the former Yugoslavia, then it is logical

    8 that there should be more educated officers, Croats

    9 than Bosniak Muslims.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may. The

    11 witness clearly said that he is not familiar with these

    12 figures and my learned friend is now trying to ask him

    13 to explain numbers that are not familiar to him. So I

    14 don't think that is appropriate.

    15 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, this is a Defence

    16 exhibit. I am asking him questions about the level of

    17 training, the fact that there are significantly more --

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Nobody is blaming you for

    19 asking the question. But you cannot go into more depth

    20 than by asking two more questions because the witness

    21 is not the one who carried out that study. It's a

    22 chart which shows the structure of the armies. We

    23 don't have the date. We have no specifics about it.

    24 He is not the one who set up this chart, so you really

    25 can't ask him to do more than make a comment about it,

  84. 1 nothing more than that.

    2 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Mr. President.

    3 It's a Defence chart and I was simply asking him

    4 questions about the proportion of Croat officers that

    5 were trained as opposed to Muslim officers.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Right, you're asking him to

    7 make a comment about the numbers. He can't go any

    8 further than that though.

    9 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, with your

    10 permission, the question is not appropriate because

    11 this is just a total of Croats and you cannot say which

    12 Croats were in Bosnia and Herzegovina and which in the

    13 entire Yugoslavia, unlike Bosniak Muslims.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: It's their document and you

    15 have to let the witness answer.

    16 MR. KEHOE:

    17 Q. Well, the fact remains, based on what counsel

    18 have just said, that officers such as Milivoj Petkovic

    19 and General Praljak, came from Croatia to serve in the

    20 HVO, didn't they?

    21 A. General Petkovic and General Praljak were on

    22 duty in the HVO, but I don't know exactly where they

    23 came from.

    24 Q. Brigadier, do you know that a significant

    25 amount of officers left the HV and came and served in

  85. 1 the HVO?

    2 A. It's possible, but I cannot confirm that

    3 these were the officers who were born in the territory

    4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. When the former army

    5 conducted the aggression against Bosnia and

    6 Herzegovina, a number of these officers probably went

    7 to Bosnia and Herzegovina. But I know that in the

    8 Operative Zone, in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone

    9 command, we know that there were no such persons.

    10 Q. Are you saying that there were no HV officers

    11 in the Operative Zone?

    12 A. Yes. There were no HV officers in the

    13 Operative Zone.

    14 Q. Can I have 406/55 or 456/19? Please, that's

    15 a Prosecution exhibit. Mr. Usher, can I ensure that

    16 that is the right exhibit, please? Yes, that's it.

    17 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if I could put the

    18 English on the ELMO and give the other copy, there is a

    19 French copy in the file, Mr. President, and if I could

    20 give the BCS copy to the witness.

    21 Q. Brigadier, do you recognise the signature and

    22 the stamp?

    23 A. I do recognise the stamp. I am not sure

    24 about the signature. I know that this is not General

    25 Blaskic's signature, but the stamp is of the Central

  86. 1 Bosnia Operative Zone.

    2 Q. It is the stamp of the Central Bosnia

    3 Operative Zone; is that right?

    4 A. Yes, it is. Yes, this is the Operative

    5 Zone's command stamp.

    6 Q. This is an order, Mr. President and Your

    7 Honours, that goes to the commanders of the Brigades

    8 and independent units, to one through twelve Brigades,

    9 to two divisions the NTD, possibly the rocket and

    10 technical division, the 4th LARD, Light Artillery

    11 Division, date 12 April 1993 at 17.20.

    12 Order: Submit a list of all HV, Croatian

    13 army -- submit a list of all officers of the HV,

    14 Croatian Army, in your units and commands. Include the

    15 following: Name, father's name, last name, number of

    16 the order with which he was sent to the HVO, rank and

    17 number of transfer decree and his current and previous

    18 duties in your unit. The deadline for carrying out

    19 this order is three days.

    20 It's got the name of the accused, Tihomir

    21 Blaskic, and the stamp of the Central Bosnia Operative

    22 Zone and it likewise has on the original an incoming

    23 stamp for the Central Bosnia Operative Zone with the

    24 date of the 12th of April, 1993.

    25 Do you recognise both of those stamps, sir?

  87. 1 A. Yes, I do recognise both of these stamps and

    2 they're from the Operative Zone command.

    3 Q. Where were these HV officers that the accused

    4 wants the names of?

    5 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, this document

    6 that we are reviewing now was produced on the basis of

    7 another document which was sent to us by the HVO main

    8 headquarters and which was sent to all Operative Zones

    9 because the main headquarters did not know whether we

    10 had any HV officers in our midst or not. I recall this

    11 document and we sent this order to all the units and we

    12 received information that we did not have HV officers

    13 in our units. This information we then sent forth to

    14 the main headquarters of the HVO and these are the

    15 circumstances under which this document was drafted.

    16 Q. Well, Brigadier, before this document was

    17 drafted, did Blaskic and you, did you know you didn't

    18 have any HV officers in any units in the Central Bosnia

    19 Operative Zone?

    20 A. When this document was being drafted, it was

    21 drafted by the assistant, organisation assistant, which

    22 said that we knew that we did not have any, but we had

    23 to comply with the order and we had to send it down to

    24 all the units. For instance, we had Usora and Zepce,

    25 which were cut off and we did not know which people

  88. 1 came back the their hometowns and maybe joined the

    2 defence of these towns where they were born. This is

    3 because we did not know who was there, we sent this

    4 document down to all the units.

    5 Q. Your testimony to this Court, Brigadier, is

    6 that you and the accused sent this order out, asking

    7 Brigades about the names of HVO officers' names in your

    8 units, you knew as did the accused, that they didn't

    9 have any HVO officers?

    10 MR. HAYMAN: Asked and answered, Your Honour,

    11 asked and answered.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Is that your testimony,

    13 Brigadier?

    14 MR. HAYMAN: It's been asked and answered,

    15 Your Honour.

    16 MR. KEHOE: I understand why counsel doesn't

    17 want him to answer.

    18 MR. HAYMAN: It's been asked and it's been

    19 answered, Mr. President.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: No, no, no. No, the question

    21 is quite exactly the same. Mr. Kehoe did not quite say

    22 that, I'm sorry to say that to you, Mr. Hayman.

    23 Mr. Kehoe was asking whether the consequences of this

    24 document can be interpreted in light of what Mr. Kehoe

    25 was asking his questions. Therefore, Mr. Kehoe,

  89. 1 complete your question.

    2 MR. KEHOE:

    3 Q. Brigadier, are you telling these judges that

    4 at the time this order went out, you and the accused

    5 knew that you didn't have any HVO -- HV officers in any

    6 units, but you sent the order anyway? Is that your

    7 testimony?

    8 A. I don't know what General Blaskic knew, but I

    9 did not know that in our units, in our brigades there

    10 were any HV officers. I was familiar with the

    11 situation sufficiently well, and I never had any

    12 information that in the Central Bosnia HVO units there

    13 were any HV officers.

    14 Q. Let's turn our attention to an earlier date

    15 and let's clarify this point, and we'll turn our

    16 attention to exhibit 406/26, another order of the

    17 accused dated the 5th of October, 1992.

    18 If we could give the BCS to the witness and

    19 put the English on the ELMO, or the French.

    20 Let me show you exhibit 406. Sir, is that a

    21 document that was sent --

    22 INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    23 Q. Is that a document that was sent on the

    24 packet system?

    25 A. Mr. President, on its face the document

  90. 1 appears to have been sent through packet

    2 communications; but I look at the date of 5-5-92, which

    3 is a period when I was not in the Operative Zone

    4 command, I started my, I assumed my duty on 1 November

    5 1992.

    6 Q. Well, on the 5th of October of 1992, Blaskic,

    7 by a packet system, sends to commanders of the

    8 municipal headquarters in Jajce, Dobretici, Novi

    9 Travnik, Travnik, Vitez, Zenica, Busovaca, Fojnica,

    10 Kiseljak, Kresevo, Kakanj, Vares, Maglaj, Tesanj,

    11 Teslic, Zavidovici and Zepce; and he orders: "I order

    12 the urgent submission of the following data regarding

    13 HV officers in your units. First name, father's name,

    14 last name. Date, place and municipality of birth.

    15 JMB, personal identification number, rank and promotion

    16 order. Date the officer reported to your unit and on

    17 whose order, and duties in the HVO and whether the HVO

    18 pays the officer's salary. This compiled data must be

    19 submitted to this office by 1200 hours on the 6th of

    20 October 1992."

    21 Did you ever see that order, Brigadier?

    22 A. I did not see this order, because it was done

    23 by the assistant for mobilisation in the organisation,

    24 and I was involved in the operations duties.

    25 Q. Did you ever talk with Blaskic and other

  91. 1 officers in the headquarters about the presence of HV

    2 officers in units within the HVO?

    3 A. As far as I recall, I was familiarised with

    4 only the previous document in a morning briefing, that

    5 the main headquarters were asking for this information,

    6 and I had no further conversations with respect to this

    7 matter that I had with General Blaskic.

    8 Q. You just said that you got to the

    9 headquarters in Vitez on the 1st of November 1992; is

    10 that right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Did you talk --

    13 A. In the Vitez headquarters of the Central

    14 Bosnia Operative Zone, I assumed this post on 1

    15 November 1992.

    16 Q. After you got to the post in November of

    17 1992, was there discussion within the headquarters

    18 about HV army members present in the region of the

    19 Central Bosnian Operative Zone?

    20 A. As far as I recall, there were no such

    21 conversations conducted in front of me. I do not

    22 recall any such conversation.

    23 Q. Let me show you a document, exhibit 406/31.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: These two documents, Mr. Kehoe,

    25 according to Mr. Dubuisson, were admitted but not

  92. 1 during a specific testimony.

    2 MR. KEHOE: That's correct, Mr. President.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Could you refresh my memory?

    4 Under what conditions were they submitted? I don't

    5 remember.

    6 MR. KEHOE: Some of these documents were

    7 submitted as part of a orders project presented by

    8 Mr. Harmon, some of these were documents submitted by

    9 an international armed conflict presentation made by

    10 Mr. Cayley.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: I remember now, yes, of

    12 course. Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

    13 MR. KEHOE:

    14 Q. Brigadier, I show you an order that was

    15 signed by Zoran Covic, the deputy commander of the

    16 Zenica OSHQ. And it reads as follows: "To all HVO

    17 Croatian Defence Council units. The international

    18 media has recently reported about HVO members who wear

    19 symbols associated with the Ustashe and facist

    20 movements, in addition to the official HVO insignia.

    21 In order to prevent these things, and for all HVO

    22 members to wear the same insignia, I hereby order:

    23 HZHB HVO commanders are to ensure that

    24 members of units and commands wear only HVO insignia on

    25 their uniforms. All other symbols are to be removed.

  93. 1 Talk to individuals who wear other insignia or symbols

    2 and explain to them that by wearing them they will

    3 discredit the HVO's reputation throughout the world.

    4 3. HV, Croatian army, members present in

    5 this region and wearing HV insignia must be warned to

    6 take them off, as this creates trouble for the Republic

    7 of Croatia.

    8 4. The headquarter's command should be

    9 provided with a sufficient quantity of insignia, and if

    10 there is a shortage, the personnel are allowed not to

    11 wear any insignia. The present order enters into force

    12 immediately."

    13 Now, do you know Mr. Covic?

    14 A. I do know Mr. Covic.

    15 Q. It seems to indicate that HV members are

    16 present in the area; doesn't he?

    17 A. Mr. President, a document similar to this

    18 one, and I believe that this document was based on it,

    19 because it went from the command of the Operative Zone

    20 to subordinate units, was addressed to subordinate

    21 units for the following reasons: I said, as follows,

    22 and that is how it was.

    23 In the area of Central Bosnia when the army

    24 of Republika Srpska attacked the area of Central

    25 Bosnia, young men from Croatia who had left

  94. 1 Bosnia-Herzegovina and gone to Croatia returned to

    2 their own places to help in the defence of those

    3 places. When they came back, they were wearing

    4 uniforms and insignia of the HV. These young men took

    5 pride in this because it showed to their local bodies

    6 how long they were at war, that they had war time

    7 experience, and this increased the authority they

    8 wielded.

    9 However, such developments were not known to

    10 the International Community, and in order to avoid all

    11 that is said in the preamble to this document, such an

    12 order was issued. But it is clear that it was very

    13 difficult to resolve this problem, because a soldier

    14 who goes to war with a certain set of insignia finds it

    15 very hard to give it up. That is why the order says

    16 that you have to talk to these people, to persuade

    17 them, because if we had a proper military organisation,

    18 it would be a simple order which had to be carried out.

    19 It was these reasons that prompted the drafting of such

    20 a document.

    21 Q. Brigadier, are you saying that this order by

    22 Mr. Covic is based on an order issued by the accused,

    23 Colonel Blaskic?

    24 A. I cannot allege that, because Covic did not

    25 indicate here in the header that it is based on an

  95. 1 order by the commander of the Operative Zone. But I do

    2 know that we did issue a similar order at the level of

    3 the Operative Zone to subordinates to overcome the

    4 problem referred to in this document.

    5 Q. Was that in November of 1992, approximately,

    6 when this was issued?

    7 A. I believe there may even have been several

    8 such orders, because it was very difficult to carry

    9 them out in the field, because one goes to war once in

    10 one's lifetime.

    11 Q. Brigadier, I thought you told us a few

    12 minutes ago that you didn't know anything about any

    13 orders concerning the HV after you took the post on the

    14 1st of November. Didn't you say that?

    15 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this is a trick

    16 question. The previous question had to do with HV

    17 officers, but this one is talking about soldiers with

    18 HV insignias. So, these are two different subjects.

    19 My learned friend is now trying to combine

    20 the two, but there are two subjects, HV officers that

    21 we discussed ten minutes ago, and now we're talking

    22 about soldiers, local boys who came back and who were

    23 wearing the insignia of the army they had joined when

    24 they went to war in Croatia. So, officers is one thing

    25 and soldiers is another.

  96. 1 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, the record will

    2 speak for itself. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Covic

    3 is talking about HV members present in the region.

    4 MR. HAYMAN: In the preamble it says the

    5 purpose of the order is for all HVO members to wear the

    6 same insignia.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: I don't really see how we can

    8 prevent Mr. Kehoe from asking certain questions,

    9 because point 3 of the order from Mr. Covic spoke about

    10 the HV army. The witness answered what seemed to be

    11 the proper answer for him to give.

    12 Continue, please, Mr. Kehoe. But quickly,

    13 because it's 6.00. Do you have many other questions

    14 about the presence of the Croatian officers, or do you

    15 have other questions?

    16 MR. KEHOE: I have a lot of other questions

    17 about presence of HV, now that he said he doesn't know

    18 anything about it.

    19 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, I would ask

    20 Mr. Kehoe to keep his comments to himself, and if he

    21 can't, he needs some help doing that from the Court,

    22 perhaps.

    23 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Counsel. The answer

    24 is, I do have other questions about this subject.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, let each person do

  97. 1 his own job, the Judges do theirs. Sometimes I have to

    2 make criticism of Mr. Nobilo when he comes to the

    3 assistance of his own witness, and the witness is

    4 capable of defending himself.

    5 I think everybody is a little bit excited, I

    6 think the interpreters must be very tired, I would like

    7 to thank them very much, particularly for the long list

    8 of names in Serbo-Croat that they had to deal with.

    9 We're going to stop here.

    10 I would like to say that tomorrow we're going

    11 to start at 10.00, as we already said; but I think

    12 we're not in this courtroom. Is that correct

    13 Mr. Dubisson.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct. Another

    15 trial will be in this courtroom, we will be in

    16 courtroom 2.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Will we stay there the

    18 afternoon?

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, all day long.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, we have to take all

    21 of our things. We have lots of things to take, so give

    22 us a few moments. All right, the registrar said that

    23 we could have it brought to us. We will resume

    24 tomorrow at 10.00.

    25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.02

  98. 1 p.m., to be reconvened on the 7th day of

    2 October, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.