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  1. 1 Tuesday, 13th October 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 10.10 a.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated and have the

    5 accused brought in.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to say good

    8 morning to all counsel, and to the interpreters, of

    9 course. We can now resume our day's work, starting by

    10 having Brigadier Marin brought into the courtroom.

    11 (The witness entered court)

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Shahabuddeen and myself

    13 received the translation of the document 510. I think

    14 there is nothing further to say. The Judges will read

    15 it, in view of what was in both those documents, but,

    16 of course, you can decide, Mr. Kehoe, at what point you

    17 want to go back to Exhibit 510, or if you would like to

    18 go on with what we interrupted yesterday. You are the

    19 one who has to decide.

    20 Was it 510 or 511, Mr. Dubuisson?

    21 THE REGISTRAR: It's 510, Your Honour.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: All right, 510.

    23 MR. KEHOE: With Your Honours' permission, I

    24 would like to go back to this area and complete the

    25 inquiry on these documents and then move back to where

  2. 1 we left off yesterday, Mr. President.

    2 So, if we could, Mr. Dubuisson, please give

    3 510, and the map, 511, to Brigadier Marin. And then if

    4 we could also, if we could give Prosecutor's Exhibit

    5 337 and 339 to the Brigadier.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning, Brigadier.

    7 A. Good morning, Mr. President.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: You were talking about 337

    9 and 339 of the Prosecutor, that's the ones you're

    10 talking about; is it not?

    11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, it should be photographs.

    12 Q. Good morning, Brigadier.

    13 A. Good morning.

    14 Q. Brigadier, turning our attention back to 510,

    15 the order of Mijo Bozic on the 27th of January 1993, we

    16 have a translation, both in French and English, from

    17 the translation section on the first sentence of

    18 paragraph 2, which notes that, "After the preparation

    19 has been completed, the local population is to be

    20 called to surrender unconditionally all weapons,

    21 otherwise the village will be burned to the ground.

    22 The villages will be burned to the ground."

    23 And then on paragraph 3 it reads, "After

    24 these villages have been taken, the enemy is to be

    25 pushed back toward Bukovci with the aim of crushing and

  3. 1 destroying that village and the enemy forces in it.

    2 The Bukovci village must be taken by nightfall on

    3 condition that we burn anything standing in the way."

    4 Now, Brigadier, this operation, according to

    5 this order, was to commence at 1600 hours on the 27th

    6 of January. Did the Ban Jelacic Brigade burn villages

    7 on the way up to Bukovci, as is stated in this order by

    8 Mijo Bozic?

    9 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, to the best of

    10 my knowledge, until the present day, the Brigade Ban

    11 Jelacic did not carry out these tasks, according to

    12 this. That is to say, they did not disarm these

    13 villages or burn them down. That is to say, the

    14 population was not disarmed and the villages were not

    15 burned, as far as I know.

    16 Because about this order and about these

    17 activities, I received no information in the Operative

    18 Zone; but that is what I know until the present day.

    19 Something else in this connection: All these villages,

    20 that is to say, in the wider region of Bilalovac, on

    21 that day were put under the control of the army of

    22 Bosnia and Herzegovina; and during the war, that is to

    23 say in 1993, those villages were under the control of

    24 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    25 Q. So, are you telling us, Brigadier, that you

  4. 1 do not know anything about this order? Is that your

    2 testimony?

    3 A. As concerns this order, I have seen it for

    4 the first time, and this was at this Court yesterday

    5 when you showed it to me. I thought about it, I tried

    6 to remember, and I remembered what I just said.

    7 I did not have any information then about

    8 this order, but today, that I think about it, and when

    9 I know what the situation on the ground was, to the

    10 best of my knowledge, these villages were not attacked,

    11 were not burned down, and these villages, on the 27th

    12 and the 28th were put under the control of the army of

    13 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and on those villages the army

    14 of Bosnia and Herzegovina held them under their control

    15 until the end of the war, that is to say, until the

    16 Washington Accords.

    17 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit 337 in

    18 conjunction with 510; and on 4, the order by Bozic

    19 says, "I hereby charge Mr. Mato Lucic, brigade

    20 commander, with coordinating this operation and

    21 Mr. Marinko Tuka as his deputy.

    22 Now, take a look on the ELMO, the photograph

    23 on the ELMO, and that photograph has been previously

    24 identified as Mato Lucic; do you recognise that man?

    25 A. I know Mato Lucic, but I cannot recognise him

  5. 1 on this photograph. That is to say, I cannot claim

    2 that this is him.

    3 Q. Take a look at Exhibit 339, which is another

    4 photograph of Mato Lucic and others; do you recognise

    5 Mato Lucic in that photograph, standing in the back

    6 behind Blaskic and Rajic?

    7 A. Yes, I see that it is the same person as on

    8 the other photograph, but truly I cannot claim that I

    9 am sure that this is Mato Lucic. I recognise General

    10 Blaskic. I recognise, according to the moustache, this

    11 should be Rajic; but I cannot claim that this is Mato

    12 Lucic.

    13 Q. Okay, sir. We will move on to that and come

    14 back to these photographs and exhibits at a later

    15 time. Thank you very much.

    16 We're going to change subjects now and go

    17 back to where we left off yesterday. If I might have

    18 one moment, Mr. President.

    19 Now, Brigadier, yesterday we left off with a

    20 series of exhibits that talked about the attacks by the

    21 Bosnian Serbs on the Bosnian Muslims, the army of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, between February and March and

    23 April, that ended with the fall of Srebrenica on the

    24 16th of April 1993, the day of the attacks in the Lasva

    25 Valley area.

  6. 1 At the same time that the attacks were taking

    2 place against the Bosnian Muslims, or the army of

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were negotiations on the

    4 Vance-Owen Peace Plan; isn't that so?

    5 A. I know that in April the Vance-Owen Plan was

    6 a topical affair and that negotiations were held in

    7 Geneva about this. So that is the only thing I can say

    8 at this point.

    9 Q. Take a look at Exhibit 19, Prosecution

    10 Exhibit 19, if we could put that on the ELMO. Yes,

    11 that's it.

    12 Can we pull that up in colour? No?

    13 THE REGISTRAR: What you see on the projector

    14 is in colour, but we're having technical problems, we

    15 can't produce a colour picture on the screen.

    16 MR. KEHOE: Okay, we will move ahead without

    17 it.

    18 Q. Brigadier, take a look at that, and take a

    19 look at it closely, and if you can't see it on the

    20 monitor --

    21 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, with the Court's

    22 permission if the witness could take the document off

    23 the ELMO and look at it up close, because I think it is

    24 a little difficult to see on the monitor.

    25 Mr. Usher, could you give that exhibit to the

  7. 1 witness? I think it's easier to see, in fairness to

    2 him.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Less equitable for us.

    4 MR. KEHOE: I understand.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: What I suggest is that the

    6 Brigadier share it with us. Usher, would you remain

    7 standing for a minute and help us here? You take a

    8 look at it and then we will be able to look at it, as

    9 well. We should have it. I know this is Exhibit 19,

    10 it must be in my office.

    11 All right, Brigadier, have you seen it?

    12 A. Yes, I did.

    13 MR. KEHOE:

    14 Q. Brigadier, the cantons that are listed here,

    15 3, 8 and 10, are the cantons that were supposed to go

    16 to the Bosnian Croats; is that right?

    17 A. On the basis of this map, I cannot tell,

    18 because the contents of the negotiations that were held

    19 in Geneva, I mean, if I had that, we could talk about

    20 it. But on the basis of this map and this geography

    21 and these colours, I cannot say what was supposed to

    22 belong to who. Because the internal set up of Bosnia

    23 and Herzegovina, on the basis of the Vance-Owen Plan,

    24 cannot lend itself to yes, no answers. This entire

    25 procedure is involved, and this map speaks of the --

  8. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Answer this simply, Brigadier,

    2 otherwise you're going to spend a month here. I could

    3 tell you now you're going to spend a month here. You

    4 can't say you really were unfamiliar with the

    5 Vance-Owen Plan. It's an easy question.

    6 For a year that we have been talking about

    7 it, in your opinion, did these provinces, referred to

    8 by the Prosecutor, that is 3, 8 and 10, did you hear

    9 they were supposed to go back to the Bosnian Croats?

    10 That's the question, it seems easy to me.

    11 If we have to go into a geopolitical analysis

    12 of the situation, I can assure you, you are going to be

    13 here a month from now and remain available to the

    14 Tribunal. We have to be clear. You, yourself, spoke

    15 about the Vance-Owen Plan during the direct

    16 examination. The question is an easy one, it seems to

    17 me.

    18 Try to avoid these constant digressions.

    19 I'll go back to the rules. It's a simple question

    20 Would you repeat the question, Mr. Kehoe? If not, I'm

    21 going to ask it myself through the powers that are

    22 given to the Tribunal.

    23 Did provinces 3, 8 and 10, not according to

    24 the map, but according to what you know, that is,

    25 according to the Vance-Owen Plan, did they or did they

  9. 1 not; or say you don't know anything about the

    2 Vance-Owen Plan, but that is going to cast a different

    3 light on what you said last week. This is Tuesday

    4 morning, it's 10.25, I would like us to go forward.

    5 Please ask your question again, very clearly,

    6 Mr. Kehoe.

    7 MR. KEHOE:

    8 Q. Brigadier, were cantons 3, 8 and 10, as

    9 coloured on the map in blue that's before you on

    10 Exhibit 19, were those cantons supposed to be

    11 controlled by the Bosnian Croats?

    12 A. Mr. President, I cannot answer whether they

    13 would be under this particular control. However,

    14 probably, if it is coloured with a certain colour, as

    15 far as I know, then the Croats in these municipalities

    16 that were included would be a majority.

    17 But I don't know in the Vance-Owen Plan

    18 whether it was said, whether something would be under

    19 someone's control. I understand the Vance-Owen Plan to

    20 be an internal set up of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Okay. The transcript is

    22 authoritative.

    23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.

    24 Q. Take a look at the map, canton 10 that's

    25 coloured in blue, incorporates the Lasva Valley area,

  10. 1 down through Busavaca and approximately half of

    2 Kiseljak; isn't that so?

    3 A. Yes, it does include the municipalities that

    4 you mentioned.

    5 Q. Let's turn our attention, sir, to Exhibit 25,

    6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 25. Yes, that's it. Take a look

    7 at that newspaper article, sir, and that is a newspaper

    8 article from Slobodna Dalmacija of 4 April 1993. And

    9 the article, the heading, the Croatian Defence Council

    10 reviewed the documents of the Vance-Owen Plan.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: All right, have you taken a

    12 look at it, Brigadier? Have you familiarised yourself

    13 with the document?

    14 A. Mr. President, I have, in part.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Do you want a few

    16 more moments?

    17 A. Yes, please.

    18 I have familiarised myself with the document.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Continue, Mr. Kehoe.

    20 MR. KEHOE:

    21 Q. Brigadier, the author of this article is a

    22 man by the name of Veso Vegar, from Mostar; isn't it?

    23 A. As far as I know, Veso Vegar is from Mostar.

    24 Q. During this time frame he was a member of the

    25 HVO; wasn't he?

  11. 1 A. Veso Vegar, as far as I know, was in the

    2 Ministry of Defence. That is to say, he was either

    3 attached to the HVO government for information. I know

    4 he was involved in information.

    5 Q. But he was part of the HVO; correct?

    6 A. Yes, part of the HVO, because the HVO had the

    7 civilian part of the HVO and the military part of the

    8 HVO. That is to say, the ministry, the units, and the

    9 main staff, and on the other hand, there were civilian

    10 institutions.

    11 Q. This particular article calls for President

    12 Izetbegovic to sign an agreement which would implement

    13 the Vance-Owen Peace Plan; isn't that right? And I'm

    14 talking about the paragraph that begins prior to the

    15 numbers 1 through 6.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Earlier, further up. What

    17 paragraph do you want to show, Mr. Kehoe?

    18 MR. KEHOE: The paragraph right before 1

    19 through 6, and carrying it down through the next

    20 paragraph.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: The one that begins "Until".

    22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, begins "Until" and then the

    23 paragraph just below the 6.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

    25 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, there is a French

  12. 1 copy of this article. Do we have a French copy?

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

    3 MR. KEHOE:

    4 Q. Do you want to read it, Brigadier? That

    5 might be easier, the paragraph beginning "Until full

    6 demilitarisation of the republic, the organisation of

    7 the armed forces will be organised in conformity with

    8 the relevant documents of the Vance-Owen Plan, and

    9 pursuant to the joint statement stemming from the

    10 agreement between Mate Boban and Alija Izetbegovic

    11 leaders of the Croat and Muslim delegations at the

    12 peace talks. The statement was signed by Mate Boban

    13 and it reads as follows: "After the Vance-Owen Peace

    14 Plan was signed, Alija Izetbegovic and Mate Boban

    15 agreed:

    16 1. All misunderstandings have been avoided

    17 between the Croatian and Muslim people concerning the

    18 borders of provinces and temporary authority therein

    19 and in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    20 2. All armed forces of the HVO and the

    21 police of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, as

    22 well the BH Army and BH Ministry of the Interior which

    23 originate from outside the provinces shall have to

    24 identify themselves and leave such provinces within

    25 three days.

  13. 1 3. Until the complete demilitarisation of BH

    2 as envisaged under the peace plan and for reasons of a

    3 more efficient defence against aggression, the domicile

    4 armed forces of the HVO and BH Army in provinces 1, 5,

    5 and 9 shall be placed under the command of the Main

    6 Staff of the BH Army, and in provinces 3, 8, and 10

    7 under the command of the Main Staff of the HVO.

    8 Those forces which cannot accept this

    9 decision, shall have the possibility to leave the

    10 provinces.

    11 4. The Main Staff of the HVO and the Main

    12 Staff of the BH Army shall set up a joint command no

    13 later than 15 April, 1993.

    14 5. Conflicts between the HVO and the BH Army

    15 shall stop at once and never be resumed.

    16 6. The free movement of people and goods on

    17 all thoroughfares in the free territory of the

    18 above-mentioned provinces shall be made possible at

    19 once.

    20 The HVO of the Croatian Community of

    21 Herceg-Bosna hopes that Izetbegovic, having understood

    22 the exceptional importance of the Statement, will sign

    23 that document as well, because the document also

    24 confirms the desire for peace which is so necessary for

    25 everyone."

  14. 1 Now, Brigadier, my question is: Three, 8,

    2 and 10 were the three cantons that we talked about that

    3 were, according to this plan, to come under the main

    4 staff of the HVO, and that's in paragraph 3; isn't that

    5 right?

    6 A. Yes, that is what it says in paragraph 3, but

    7 I wish to recall the order that we received from the

    8 main staff related precisely to the implementation of

    9 these activities which indicated -- or, rather, in

    10 which this text, as it stands here, was, so that is

    11 what I know about these activities, that such orders

    12 were received, that contact should be established with

    13 representatives of the army.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: The interpreter was not able to

    15 follow what you just said easily.

    16 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, I didn't know if the

    17 interpreter wanted to repeat it, Mr. President.

    18 Q. Now, the main -- on number 4, the joint

    19 command was not set up by the 15th of April, 1993, was

    20 it?

    21 A. No, it was not set up until this date.

    22 Q. Now, let's look back at the next paragraph.

    23 It says:

    24 "In the event that the Statement is not

    25 signed by the heads of the Muslim delegation in

  15. 1 provinces 3, 8, and 10, the HVO of the Croatian

    2 Community of Herceg-Bosna has decided to apply the

    3 provisions of the Peace Plan, whereby each national

    4 armed force will have to withdraw to its domicile

    5 province."

    6 Do you see that paragraph, Brigadier?

    7 A. Yes, I see that, and that is what it says.

    8 Q. Now, this is a decision by the HVO to

    9 implement this particular agreement in the Vance-Owen

    10 Plan whether the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    11 agrees or not; isn't that correct?

    12 A. From this article, from this newspaper

    13 article, I cannot say that that is what the HVO

    14 decided. It says here that that is the decision that

    15 was reached, but I have never seen this specific

    16 decision. What it says here is exactly what you have

    17 just said.

    18 Q. Well, the command was not set up by the 15th,

    19 and this article, written by a member of the HVO, says

    20 that the HVO will unilaterally implement this plan, and

    21 the attacks in Central Bosnia took place on the 16th;

    22 isn't that right?

    23 A. The war in Central Bosnia, in Vitez, took

    24 place on the 16th of April, 1993.

    25 Q. Well, the issue concerning the HVO control of

  16. 1 canton 10 continued to be an issue with the HVO after

    2 the fighting began on the 16th, didn't it?

    3 A. This document, this document and the problems

    4 defined -- related to the Vance-Owen Plan was probably

    5 topical until another fresh peace agreement on

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina was signed, which the top

    7 political -- what the politicians discussed at top

    8 level, I cannot say and don't know.

    9 Q. Well, didn't it continue to be a topic in the

    10 midst of the fighting in the first few days after the

    11 16th?

    12 A. In my role, that is, the role whereof the

    13 Operative Zone of Central Bosnia on the 16th, 17th,

    14 18th, 19th, up until the meeting in Zenica, we did not

    15 have time, nor did we have the possibility, at least I

    16 did not, have an opportunity to talk to anybody on this

    17 topic and about this particular issue. What the head

    18 of the main staff discussed with the commander of the

    19 BH army or the top civilian authority during the time

    20 of the war in Vitez, I really cannot say.

    21 Q. Well, let's turn our attention to Defence

    22 Exhibit 330, if we could? You see Defence Exhibit 330,

    23 Brigadier?

    24 A. Yes, I have it. It is not legible in one

    25 portion, but I think I'll be able to find my way.

  17. 1 Q. Brigadier, this is a document that you said

    2 you recognised in direct examination by the Defence,

    3 and you said that this was a document that came into

    4 the HVO headquarters on the 20th of April, 1993. That

    5 was your direct testimony. Is that correct?

    6 A. I don't see the reason why this document

    7 should go to the main staff.

    8 Q. Brigadier, that's what you said. When you

    9 introduced this into evidence, you identified it --

    10 MR. NOBILO: Objection. Mr. President, the

    11 witness did not say that it went to the main staff but

    12 to the command of the Operative Zone, and the main

    13 staff was in Mostar, and so the terms are different.

    14 A. The document that I have before me --

    15 JUDGE JORDA: There's an ambiguity here,

    16 Mr. Kehoe. Let's clarify it. When you recall the

    17 witness's statements, you have to recall them very

    18 precisely with the transcript in hand. The witness had

    19 many things. You've got to put yourself in his place.

    20 It's complicated and it's hard for him just to react

    21 when you say "You said this." If you have the

    22 transcript, you can use it, or else be very specific.

    23 MR. KEHOE:

    24 Q. I can pull the transcript, but is this a

    25 document that you identified during your direct

  18. 1 examination by Mr. Nobilo?

    2 A. Yes, Mr. President, I identified this

    3 document and I recall the events that the document

    4 writes about.

    5 MR. NOBILO: Perhaps it would be a good idea

    6 to see whether you are talking about the same

    7 document. This is a report from the Vitez Brigade sent

    8 to the Operative Zone. Do you have that document in

    9 mind, sir?

    10 MR. KEHOE: The document is the report from

    11 the Vitez Brigade, 20 April, 1993, to the command of

    12 Central Bosnia Operative Zone, Vitez. That's the

    13 document.

    14 Q. This is a document that you identified during

    15 your direct testimony; correct?

    16 A. Yes, that is correct. I said that I recall

    17 the contents of this document and that the document

    18 came to the command of the Operative Zone.

    19 Q. Now, the last paragraph of this document

    20 reads:

    21 "On the premises of the Viteska Brigade

    22 command, prominent representatives of Muslims gathered

    23 during the night with the goal of finding a way to stop

    24 the armed conflict. Together with the representatives

    25 of the HVO government, certain conclusions were

  19. 1 reached, a copy of which is attached herewith."

    2 Now, my question for you is: This particular

    3 document, when it came in to the command headquarters,

    4 had an attachment, didn't it?

    5 A. That is what it says here. I cannot quite

    6 remember what it was. I said that I remember the

    7 contents and the activities that are written down here.

    8 MR. KEHOE: Let's turn our attention to

    9 Prosecutor's Exhibit 86, if we could?

    10 And, Mr. President, on 86, Prosecutor's,

    11 there is a French copy as well. Prosecution 86, it's

    12 not Defence.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: The registrar is going to give

    14 it to me, give me the French translation. He doesn't

    15 want me to write any notes down, he doesn't want me to

    16 scribble on it. He's right.

    17 Eighty-six, did you say?

    18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, 86.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: I promise you I'm going to give

    20 it back to you in the shape that you gave it to me.

    21 MR. KEHOE:

    22 Q. Now, Brigadier, take a look at Prosecutor's

    23 Exhibit 86. Now, Brigadier, this is also dated the

    24 20th of April, 1993, the same date as this memorandum

    25 that you identified, Defence Exhibit 330.

  20. 1 A. Yes. This is the handwriting, it is 16th of

    2 April, 1993 -- 16th of July, 1995.

    3 Q. The handwriting on the bottom is the 16th of

    4 July, 1995, and the date is in the upper left-hand

    5 corner.

    6 A. Yes. I apologise. The 16th of July written

    7 in handwriting and the date has been typed, the 20th of

    8 the 4th, 1993, April. That is what it is in my copy.

    9 Q. Take a look at that document, sir -- it's a

    10 rather brief document -- if you could.

    11 A. I have looked at the document.

    12 Q. Now, this is signed on behalf of the Croats

    13 by Mayor Ivan Santic, isn't it?

    14 A. I know Mr. Santic. I cannot claim that that

    15 is his signature because I haven't had occasion to see

    16 his documents signed.

    17 Q. Well, take a look at point 4 in that

    18 document, and before we look at point 4, is this the

    19 attachment that was attached to Defence Exhibit 330

    20 that came to the headquarters on the 20th of April?

    21 A. I cannot confirm that.

    22 Q. Okay, sir. Well, let's look at paragraph 4.

    23 It says:

    24 "Both sides agree in Vitez and province 10

    25 the Vance-Owen Plan should be implemented even before

  21. 1 it is signed by the Serb side. Also, the army

    2 commands shall retain their structure in conformity

    3 with the ethnic composition of the province and the

    4 municipality."

    5 A. Yes. That's what it says.

    6 Q. Now, sir, this particular document appears to

    7 be signed at a time when the war is taking place in the

    8 Vitez area; isn't that right?

    9 A. Yes. That means that if the date is correct,

    10 the 20th of April, 1993, the 24th, as far as I recall,

    11 on that particular evening, there was a meeting in

    12 Zenica.

    13 Q. So based on this particular document, you

    14 would agree with me that in the midst of this war, the

    15 implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan in canton 10 was

    16 a significant issue at least to Mayor Santic; isn't

    17 that right?

    18 A. From the text which has been offered to us

    19 here, we can see that it was a significant issue both

    20 for Mr. Santic and Mr. Muharem Mujezinovic because they

    21 both signed the same text.

    22 Q. Well, let's talk about that. During the

    23 19th, 20th, 21st dates down, Muslim prisoners were

    24 being kept at the cinema building some 100 yards behind

    25 the Hotel Vitez; isn't that right?

  22. 1 A. I know that in the cinema building, there

    2 were prisoners; that is to say, people were -- Muslims,

    3 civilians who, during the fighting, were brought to

    4 that facility.

    5 Q. Well, was Dr. Mujezinovic one of those

    6 prisoners, sir?

    7 A. I really cannot either assert or deny that.

    8 Q. Okay, sir. Let's change subjects now. We

    9 finished talking about the Bosnian Serbs attacking the

    10 Bosnian Muslims in various categories, and we talked

    11 about the Vance-Owen Plan and the decision by the HVO

    12 to unilaterally implement the Vance-Owen Plan if not

    13 agreed to by the Bosnian Muslims. Let us now move to

    14 the actual time frame of the 15th, 16th of April, 1993.

    15 Before we get to that, let me talk about a

    16 few things before we actually move to the attack.

    17 The first thing that I'd like to talk to you

    18 about is the actual kidnapping of those officers in

    19 Novi Travnik, and you talked about that at some length

    20 during your direct examination in response to some

    21 questions by Mr. Nobilo.

    22 My question for you, Brigadier, is: Isn't it

    23 true that as soon as those kidnappings of the HVO

    24 officers took place, a joint investigation between the

    25 HVO and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and ECMM

  23. 1 monitors was set up to investigate the kidnappings;

    2 isn't that right?

    3 A. Yes, the investigation was set up and the

    4 investigation lasted for more than 15 days. I think

    5 about 20 days was how long the investigation lasted.

    6 Q. Now, likewise, for the kidnapping of

    7 Commander Totic, an investigation was set up to secure

    8 the release of Commander Totic as well, wasn't it, and

    9 I'm talking about a joint investigation?

    10 A. Linked to the investigation, when we're

    11 talking about the kidnapping of the commander of the

    12 brigade in Zenica, Zivko Totic, I do not have any

    13 information. I cannot say -- I don't know anything

    14 about that particular investigation. But if you claim

    15 that that is so, I have no reason to deny it.

    16 Q. Well, sir, isn't it so --

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Pay attention to the witness's

    18 answers.

    19 MR. KEHOE: I did, Mr. President.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: I think one has to listen to

    21 the answers that are given by the witness.

    22 MR. KEHOE:

    23 Q. Now, isn't it so, Brigadier, that the release

    24 of both the HVO officers kidnapped from Travnik as well

    25 Commander Totic was tied to the release of some foreign

  24. 1 Muslims that had been taken captive and were being held

    2 in Kaonik camp or Kaonik military prison camp?

    3 A. Through the negotiations that were held and

    4 after the war was stopped and a cease-fire was

    5 established for the conflict in Busovaca, the

    6 activities towards the exchange of kidnapped officers

    7 from the brigade of Novi Travnik and the Vitez Brigade

    8 commander took place, and within the framework of this

    9 kind of activity, I cannot tell you any specific facts

    10 but I do know that there was an agreement for the

    11 exchange of those taken prisoners, taken captive, and I

    12 mentioned that in this exchange a certain number of --

    13 I don't know the category of these people. I can't say

    14 now who were confined in the military prison in

    15 Busovaca. I'm not sure that they were Mujahedeen, in

    16 fact.

    17 Q. Well, they were people foreign -- people who

    18 were not from Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that so?

    19 A. I don't know exactly. For me -- there was

    20 this kind of information as regards -- in the

    21 communication that I had, and I -- that they were

    22 Mujahedeen, but from what country, whether they were

    23 foreign nationals, whether they had taken up Bosnian

    24 nationality, I really don't know.

    25 Q. Well, the ECMM and other international

  25. 1 organisations assisted to complete this agreement

    2 whereby the exchange of the HVO officers and these

    3 Muslims that were in the Kaonik camp, they assisted in

    4 that agreement, didn't they?

    5 A. Yes, and there was great assistance from the

    6 International Community, and without it, there could

    7 have been no exchange. But the exchange followed an

    8 agreement on the cease-fire and the release of all

    9 people that had been taken prisoner, and this was in

    10 Zenica on the 20th, agreed on the 20th, and in Bila on

    11 the 21st. So the results of these meetings secured

    12 this exchange to take place, of course under the

    13 auspices and with the help of the International

    14 Community.

    15 Q. So the members of ECMM and the International

    16 Community who negotiated this deal, they would, of

    17 course, be the most knowledgeable people as to the

    18 facts and circumstances behind the causes of these

    19 kidnappings and also the reasons set forth for the

    20 release; isn't that so?

    21 A. I do not know which facts they had at their

    22 disposal, these international organisations, and how

    23 far they arrived at the right kind of knowledge, why

    24 these people were taken prisoner, were captured in the

    25 first place, and the circumstances governing the

  26. 1 signing of the agreement and when it was decided that

    2 these two sides be exchanged, that both sides exchange

    3 prisoners according to the agreement reached.

    4 Q. Well, Brigadier, let us turn our attention to

    5 the actual combat orders that were issued on the 15th

    6 and also the morning of the 16th, and I'm talking about

    7 Exhibits 267, 268, and 269, Defence Exhibit 267, 268,

    8 and 269.

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 JUDGE JORDA: It's all right. Thank you,

    21 Mr. Hayman.

    22 MR. HAYMAN: Can we go into private session,

    23 Mr. President?

    24 JUDGE JORDA: There's nobody in the public

    25 gallery, I don't think.

  27. 1 MR. HAYMAN: Are we in private session,

    2 Mr. President?

    3 (Closed session)










    13 Pages 13332 to 13455 redacted - in closed session








    21 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    22 6.07 p.m., to be reconvened on

    23 Wednesday, the 14th day of October,

    24 1998, at 11.00 a.m.