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  1. 1 1 Tuesday, 3rd November, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 10.17 a.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Have the accused brought in,

    5 please.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning to the

    8 interpreters. We will now continue hearing the

    9 testimony of the Defence witness. Mr. Dubuisson, would

    10 you have the witness brought in, please? Have Father

    11 Pervan brought in.

    12 (The witness entered court)

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Father Pervan, do you hear me?

    14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I hear you.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. We're going

    16 to continue the direct-examination conducted by

    17 Mr. Nobilo, and Mr. Hayman who have called you to

    18 testify in this case. Mr. Nobilo, please, proceed.

    19 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:

    20 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    21 Q. Good morning, Father Ivan. Just put that

    22 away so we can see each other. Right.

    23 So the first subject I would like to deal

    24 with this morning is the work of Caritas. Please tell

    25 the Court what is Caritas, what kind of an organisation

    1 is it?

    2 A. Your Honours, first of all, I have to say a

    3 few words by way of introduction. Through the 700

    4 years of the activity of my community, the Franciscans,

    5 in Bosnia, it is well-known that the friars took care

    6 of the poor, and all who were imperilled in any way.

    7 It is also a well-known fact that friars, priests, in

    8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, throughout their activity, opened

    9 schools, taught children and helped gifted children to

    10 get an education in Italy, France and, notably,

    11 Austro-Hungary.

    12 None of us friars knows how far back the

    13 bread of St. Ante dates back to. The bread of St. Ante

    14 is our internal Franciscan humanitarian organisation,

    15 which takes care of the poor and all those who are

    16 needy in any way. Our organisation works in all

    17 Franciscan communities. At the level of the general

    18 church, there is also care for the poor and the sick,

    19 and there is a humanitarian organisation at the level

    20 of the entire church which is called Caritas.

    21 There are separate organisations in different

    22 States where there are several diocese, so there are

    23 several Caritas, so to speak. There are several

    24 Caritas for example, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, of the

    25 Bishop's conference in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which

  2. 1 consisted of the Archbishop of Sarajevo, the Bishop of

    2 Banja Luka and Trevinsko (phoen) Matrinska in Mostar.

    3 Kiseljak directly belongs to Caritas of the diocese in

    4 Sarajevo.

    5 In 1992, in addition to the humanitarian

    6 organisation that existed in the parish of Kiseljak,

    7 which is a Franciscan parish, under the instructions of

    8 Vinko Pulic, Caritas was established at the level of

    9 the parish of Kiseljak within the Sarajevo diocese.

    10 Q. What was your post in the Caritas of the

    11 parish of Kiseljak?

    12 A. In the Caritas of the Kiseljak parish I was

    13 director of the municipal Caritas.

    14 Q. What was the first activity you carried out,

    15 and on what occasion and who did you give this aid to?

    16 A. As soon as we established Caritas at the

    17 level of Kiseljak, this was in 1992 in Croatia, war had

    18 already broken out, especially in the eastern part of

    19 Croatia, notably in Dalmatia. In the parish of

    20 Kiseljak, we were collecting aid, and sending it to

    21 those who needed it, especially Dubrovnik, Zadar and

    22 Sarajevo.

    23 Q. Tell me, when Sarajevo was laid siege to by

    24 the army of Republika Srpska and when it was attacked,

    25 who did you personally send trade to inter alia?

  3. 1 A. First of all, we should say that Kiseljak was

    2 cut off from Sarajevo. However, as we agreed with the

    3 Serbian humanitarian organisation Preporod Renasance,

    4 and they made a deal with their army, so from Kiseljak

    5 we could send aid to Sarajevo but we had to give 30 per

    6 cent of that to Preporod. Of course, there were

    7 problems involved.

    8 We had to hide certain parcels because the

    9 Serb soldiers searched the packages, and if they would

    10 often find a name -- find a package with a Muslim name

    11 and surname, they would take those parcels away. We

    12 would send aid to Sarajevo, and Mr. Ivo Komsic helped

    13 the work of Caritas. He later become the President of

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. With his initiative, with my

    15 approval, and I did this very gladly, we sent

    16 communications to Jerko Doko, Mr. Alija Itzebegovic and

    17 Stefan Kljuic. Of course, we had to conceal all of

    18 this because the Serb soldiers would have taken all

    19 this away. So we changed their names. Instead of

    20 "Alija" we put "Ilija", and we called him Fra Ilija,

    21 and Fra Jerko and Fra Stefan, so we used the

    22 pseudonyms, calling them friars, and those people in

    23 Sarajevo who were seeing this knew exactly who it was

    24 for. Perhaps this was not a nice thing to do, but

    25 those packages worked much better than those received

  4. 1 by other people.

    2 Q. The war is on in Sarajevo, people are fleeing

    3 Sarajevo. Kiseljak is very close to Sarajevo. There

    4 are many refugees coming in from Sarajevo. Has Caritas

    5 taken part in putting up these refugees, and what

    6 nationality did they belong to and what was going on,

    7 generally speaking?

    8 A. A particularly big wave of refugees from

    9 Sarajevo came from April 1992 until the end of June

    10 1992. That is to say, within those three months. Most

    11 of the refugees got out of Sarajevo by way of Kiseljak,

    12 because Kiseljak was not under blockade then. We had

    13 buses, so those who wanted to continue managed to do so

    14 from here. However, most refugees stayed in Kiseljak.

    15 Of course, we did take part in putting up

    16 these refugees, but not only Caritas but the entire

    17 population did. From Kubilica (phoen) to Kiseljak,

    18 this is a 10 kilometre distance. Many people got out

    19 of their homes and took out food, cakes, drinks,

    20 clothes and offered all of this to the refugees.

    21 Some people were even brought in dead. At a

    22 checkpoint in Kubilica a lady had a heart attack. A

    23 lot of people say that this was because she was afraid

    24 and others say that she was very happy to get out of

    25 the hell of Sarajevo.

  5. 1 Q. Please tell the Court whether all these

    2 refugees belonged to the same ethnic group or not.

    3 A. No, no. The -- the least number of refugees

    4 were Serbs, and the most were Croats or Muslims. So if

    5 I were to speak of my own estimate, I would think it

    6 was a 50/50 ratio.

    7 Q. Thank you. In the second half of 1992,

    8 you -- or rather, Caritas organised a collection

    9 centre, a warehouse of sorts; wasn't that the case?

    10 A. Yes. Since in Split we had a collection

    11 centre and a warehouse in Split, and before that,

    12 actually, we had one which was in Sarajevo, so we would

    13 bring food in to Kiseljak so it would be closer to the

    14 other Caritas, Tuzla, Kiseljak, Zenica, Zepce,

    15 Kresevo, Fojnica, Busovaca.

    16 And initially, our upper church was our

    17 warehouse. You don't know this, but the church in

    18 Kiseljak consists of two parts. It has a crypt and the

    19 upper part of the church was not being used, it's a

    20 very big area, and that's where we kept all this food

    21 and distributed it throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina,

    22 or, rather, those centres that were accessible at the

    23 time.

    24 Q. In Kiseljak you were not the only

    25 humanitarian organisation. There was also Merhamet and

  6. 1 the Red Cross. Can you tell us about these other

    2 organisations, whether there was co-operation between

    3 them and who covered which area of work?

    4 A. The municipality of Kiseljak, before the war,

    5 had a population consisting of two ethnic groups

    6 primarily before the war; 53 per cent were Croats, 46

    7 per cent were Muslims, 3 percent Serbs, and the

    8 remaining 1 per cent were those who were uncommitted or

    9 who chose to be Yugoslavs. They called themselves

    10 Yugoslavs.

    11 As the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    12 quite openly, notably in Sarajevo and in Posavina and

    13 around Krajina around Banja Luka, we established

    14 Caritas, but the Islamic community also established a

    15 humanitarian society called Merhamet. At the level of

    16 the municipality, the civilian authorities had an

    17 international organisation, the Red Cross.

    18 In 1992, to the great satisfaction of all

    19 Caritas, Merhamet and the Red Cross worked together.

    20 When I say that they worked together, I mean the

    21 following: We agreed that Caritas would take over care

    22 for the Catholics, for the Croats, that Merhamet would

    23 take care of the Muslims, and that the Red Cross would

    24 coordinate the work of these two societies. We reached

    25 such an agreement and this functioned very well.

  7. 1 Caritas and Merhamet were supposed to

    2 compliment each other, so what Caritas did not have we

    3 would get for free from Merhamet, and what Merhamet did

    4 not have they could get from Caritas for free. We gave

    5 each other as much as was needed if this was possible,

    6 of course, if we had the required amounts.

    7 Q. Tell me, when did Merhamet stop working on

    8 the territory of the municipality of the Kiseljak?

    9 A. Merhamet worked in 1992, and then they had

    10 some internal problems of their own in their

    11 organisation. They did not agree with the leadership

    12 of Merhamet, so, therefore, they had less and less

    13 food. And also, the donations they were receiving

    14 became smaller and smaller. Merhamet worked in 1992,

    15 and in 1993. I do not know why and how they no longer

    16 functioned.

    17 Q. Does that mean that at one point in time you

    18 started taking care of the Muslim population too that

    19 needed assistance? If that is so, could you please

    20 explain to the Court which villages you brought aid to,

    21 or, rather, the Muslim populations of those villages?

    22 A. Yes. Before Merhamet stopped working, many

    23 Muslims came to the church, because that's where the

    24 warehouse was, and they asked me personally to give

    25 them food. During this first period of time I would

  8. 1 tell them to go to Merhamet, and they said, "There's

    2 nothing down there, we want to get supplies from you."

    3 Of course, at the time when Merhamet was

    4 working as well, I did give aid to the Muslims, and

    5 often it was easier for me to give something to a

    6 Muslim than to try to justify myself and to make

    7 excuses because of the agreement reached between

    8 Merhamet and Caritas.

    9 However, since Merhamet worked less and less,

    10 more and more Muslims came to us, to Caritas, and

    11 received aid there. At that time, we gave the most

    12 assistance to those Muslims who were closest to the

    13 church. That is to say, Muslims in town, Muslims in

    14 Rotilj, Muslims in Visnjica, but other villages where

    15 they worked, but also at like Duhreta (phoen), Polje,

    16 Radanovici, Grahovcici, Han Ploca, Palez.

    17 Q. When you say "town" are you referring to the

    18 town of Kiseljak?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. At one point in time when you reached your

    21 peak, how many people were you feeding, Caritas?

    22 A. You mean at the peak or at any time?

    23 Q. No, I'm saying what was the maximum number of

    24 people that received aid and food from Caritas,

    25 refugees or the local population, irrespective of

  9. 1 ethnicity?

    2 A. There were 18,000.

    3 Q. Tell me, did you have any problems? We know,

    4 from this trial and otherwise, that in Bosnia there

    5 were interethnic tensions and later conflicts. Were

    6 you under pressure of any kind because you gave help

    7 and aid to the Muslims and you are a Catholic

    8 organisation?

    9 A. I shall tell you the following: Before the

    10 conflict with the Muslims, that is to say between the

    11 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO, in the entire

    12 municipality, throughout the public, everyone knew that

    13 the priest from Caritas is giving aid to the Muslims.

    14 Many knew this, many saw this. None of the official

    15 authorities, military, civilian and political objected

    16 to this. They didn't ask me why I was doing this.

    17 Of course, there were some people, especially

    18 during the war, who were affected by the war, who lost

    19 their nearest and dearest. There were people who were

    20 wounded, people who were expelled and who were

    21 muttering complaints as to why aid was being given to

    22 those who had expelled them.

    23 You'll have to understand this. At that

    24 time, per week, I would have 10 or 15 funerals for

    25 people who got killed. So there were families, there

  10. 1 were children, there were old parents, so there were

    2 such objections that were raised by some people. Not

    3 that often to me personally but there were rumours.

    4 People talked throughout town, in their homes, et

    5 cetera.

    6 Q. Tell me -- at this point we're just talking

    7 about Caritas -- in relation to your humanitarian work,

    8 did you have any contact or conversation with Tihomir

    9 Blaskic exclusively related to helping Muslims through

    10 Caritas?

    11 A. In 1992, through the period from the spring

    12 until the winter, I was in contact many times with

    13 Mr. Blaskic. At that time we did not specifically talk

    14 about Caritas, but he knew what I was doing. He knew

    15 that I was distributing aid to the Muslims as well. He

    16 was in Kiseljak when we took in Muslims from other

    17 places too, and I did have a conversation with him

    18 about Caritas as well. This was in the second half of

    19 the month of May 1993. This was at the funeral of Mato

    20 Lucic. In Kiseljak he's called Maturice. This was a

    21 tête-à-tête conversation, although they were surrounded

    22 by other people. We exchanged a few words, he asked me

    23 how I was, what I was doing, what I knew, whether there

    24 were any problems, and I said that I was sad, and

    25 dismayed and tired, and that Caritas would eat me up, I

  11. 1 said.

    2 I also told him that there would be problems

    3 probably with people, Muslims, who remained in

    4 Kiseljak. They didn't have an organisation of their

    5 own, and that they would come to seek aid from Caritas

    6 in the municipality of Kiseljak. And he said the

    7 following: "You are a priest. You are a Franciscan.

    8 You are a Friar. You know what your calling is. It

    9 means the following: You have to give."

    10 Q. Tell me, were people revolted when Maturice

    11 was killed and can you tell me a few words about the

    12 reputation he enjoyed amongst the Croats? Was mention

    13 made of this that there would be additional problems in

    14 this respect?

    15 A. Anto Lucic Maturice was a young man whom I

    16 have known since 1983, because I was in Capelan his

    17 native parish, the parish of Bembrdo, and he was

    18 enrolled at the Yugoslav People's Army military school

    19 and had to be a party member, which means that publicly

    20 he was not able to declare his religion. He was not

    21 able to christen his children and have his wedding

    22 rights performed in a church. I knew that and when I

    23 was a priest in my younger days, secretly we would hear

    24 his confession and give him absolution.

    25 When the war broke out, as an officer of the

  12. 1 Yugoslav People's army, he came to Kiseljak black, he

    2 was a young man who always found time to smile, he

    3 would joke, he was a very clean man, kept himself

    4 clean, he was dark featured and in the army he was

    5 highly respected. The army liked him. He was the

    6 deputy of the head of the barracks in Kiseljak. That

    7 is to say, the head of the military units in Kiseljak.

    8 He was killed, I think, on the 10th of May

    9 when there was a cease-fire of some sort, and when we

    10 had hopes that the war would perhaps not break out and

    11 that those who make such decisions would be able to

    12 come to a decision. But he died and was killed during

    13 a reconnoitring activity. There were two other

    14 soldiers with him when he was killed. There was an

    15 enormous funeral with many people attending. There was

    16 the army, there were soldiers who came to the funeral,

    17 and they got drunk out of desperation. People who were

    18 revolted by everything that had happened, and they

    19 said, "Well, they've skilled our best man."

    20 Q. And in circumstances of this kind, you found

    21 the need to talk to Blaskic about aid and assistance?

    22 A. Yes, that was the motive for my talks with

    23 Blaskic, because as you know, I too am only a man and I

    24 have my own fears.

    25 Q. And before we move into another area, the

  13. 1 refugees to the municipality of Kiseljak, I would like

    2 to ask the registrar to give us the number of the

    3 exhibit for the series of documents which represent

    4 lists that Caritas drew up and referred to aid and

    5 assistance to the Muslims in Muslim villages.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: D424/1 through 18.

    7 MR. NOBILO: Would you pass the documents

    8 around, please?

    9 THE REGISTRAR: It was D423.

    10 Q. While we're waiting for the documents to be

    11 handed out, would you please leaf through the

    12 documents, and then we will discuss them.

    13 Father Ivan, please tell us how I came by

    14 those documents. Who gave me the documents, and are

    15 the photocopies authentic representations of the

    16 documents you gave me?

    17 A. Yes, they are authentic copies of the

    18 originals that I have in my possession.

    19 Q. Tell me, please, what does this set of

    20 documents, this set of lists represent?

    21 A. This set of lists represents the names and

    22 surnames of individuals who received aid from Caritas,

    23 and are of the Muslim ethnic group and of the Islamic

    24 religion.

    25 I should also like to add one sentence here,

  14. 1 and that is that in Caritas we did not have a column

    2 for ethnic group, nationality; but here it is easy to

    3 see from the names and surnames who belongs to which

    4 ethnic group.

    5 Q. Thank you. We're now going to move to

    6 another subject, and it is refugees in the Kiseljak

    7 municipality. Do you know how many Catholics your

    8 parish had?

    9 A. Yes, I do. My parish, before the war, had

    10 4.300 Catholics living in it, and mostly Croats.

    11 Q. Tell me, in 1992, where did the refugees come

    12 to, from which areas, and what ethnic group did they

    13 belong to and who were they fleeing?

    14 A. In 1992, up until the month of June, we had

    15 an influx of refugees, mostly from Sarajevo and the

    16 environs of Sarajevo, and from places which had already

    17 been taken control of by the Serbian army.

    18 Among those refugees, mostly there were

    19 Croats and Muslims, and some Serbs from mixed marriages

    20 who had mixed marriages.

    21 From June onwards, we had an influx of

    22 refugees, mostly from the Banja Luka region, from the

    23 Travnik area, from Zenica, Konjic and the environs.

    24 That is say all Rakovica, that is to say all the places

    25 which had been taken control of by the Serbian army.

  15. 1 That is, I'm talking about the year 1992.

    2 Q. How many refugees did you take in at the

    3 time?

    4 A. I think that in September, already, the

    5 number of refugees who had decided to remain in

    6 Kiseljak, in the parish of Kiseljak, was at least

    7 1.500.

    8 Q. Thank you.

    9 A. Up until the end of that year, there were a

    10 little more than 2.000 refugees, in 1992.

    11 Q. So, these 2.000 refugees, for the most part,

    12 had fled in the face of the Serb onslaught. What

    13 happened in January of 1993? Did you have a new wave

    14 of refugees? Where did they come from, and who did

    15 they flee from, and what ethnic group did they belong

    16 to?

    17 A. In January, 1993 there was an attack between

    18 the BH army and the HVO, and this was in the region of

    19 the Kiseljak municipality, that is to say, between

    20 Kiseljak municipality and the Busovaca municipality.

    21 This conflict took place in the village of Bilalovac,

    22 Kacuni, Oseliste, Bukovice, Gusti Grab, Pezici,

    23 Nezirovici and Donja Polje.

    24 At that time, in that conflict, the HVO lost

    25 the battle, and there were a large number of refugees,

  16. 1 approximately 2.000 of them. They fled from Kiseljak,

    2 they fled from the war, and according to their ethnic

    3 group, they were Croats, and they came from the

    4 villages of Bilalovac, Kacuni, Bukovice, Poselisje,

    5 Gusti Grab, and from all the villages, the northern

    6 lying villages of the Brestoska parish. And as I said,

    7 there were about 2.000 of them.

    8 Q. Those 2.000 Croats who had fled in the face

    9 of the war, and the villages that you enumerated, we're

    10 not going to show them on the map now, but they are

    11 located between Bilalovac and Kacuni, that is to say,

    12 they are partially from the Busovaca municipality and

    13 in part from the Kiseljak municipality; is that

    14 correct?

    15 A. Yes, that is correct, Bilalovac, up to

    16 Klokops (phoen) and including Klokope (phoen), belongs

    17 to the Kiseljak municipality, Poselisje, Gusti Grab,

    18 Bukovci, Nezirovici, Donja Polje belong to the Busovaca

    19 municipality.

    20 So the conflict was between the army of BH

    21 and the HVO, and it occurred on the borderline between

    22 the two municipalities.

    23 Q. So after this second wave of refugees, Croats

    24 who had fled from Kacuni and Bilalovac, up until the

    25 month of April, there were no new waves of refugees.

  17. 1 But before we go on to discuss the month of April, I

    2 should like to suggest that we read a report from

    3 Catholic clergy from Bosnia, which you, yourself,

    4 signed and which, according to our knowledge, was

    5 written at that time.

    6 MR. NOBILO: I should now like to ask this

    7 document to be handed out.

    8 I apologise, the Croatian original exists in

    9 one sample only, and I'm going to have it Xeroxed

    10 during the break, and we shall be submitting a

    11 translation of it. As it exists in English, I'm going

    12 to read it out so that it can be translated into

    13 French.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: D424, for the BCS version,

    15 and 424A for the English version.

    16 MR. NOBILO:

    17 Q. I am going to read the text, the interpreters

    18 do not have the text in English. It is titled

    19 "Statement by the Catholic clergy from Central

    20 Bosnia."

    21 "For 13 years of permanent presence and

    22 tradition, and out of the feeling of responsibility for

    23 our people, and before our people, gives us the right

    24 and makes it incumbent upon us to raise our voice. We

    25 feel it to be our duty to draw attention to both the

  18. 1 Croatian and Muslim people that we condemn the tragic

    2 events which have happened in this region against the

    3 will of both peoples.

    4 Without intending to create policy or to

    5 decide upon any political system or alliance, we

    6 support the basic rights of every man living in this

    7 region, which is sacred to us. Immorality and crime do

    8 not bring any good to those who commit them, let alone

    9 to those who are subjected to them.

    10 The tradition of this unique region and

    11 people, especially of the Croatian people and its

    12 customs, is to respect every man and his freedoms, and

    13 to live in the spirit of tolerance and Christian love

    14 with all the people with whom we share the space, the

    15 spirit and the breath.

    16 Therefore, we demand that those persons in

    17 authority, either civilian or military, and all those

    18 who," in adverted commas, "in the name of the people,

    19 commit any acts which are contrary to those, and sow

    20 the seeds of fear and hatred should be isolated and

    21 uncovered in the name of the basic right of a life of

    22 freedom to every man.

    23 We recommend that truthful people from both

    24 sides, who enjoy the reputation and trust, found joint

    25 commissions which will visit our whole region and

  19. 1 restore the confidence which has been seriously

    2 shaken.

    3 In an effort to stop all unwanted events, we

    4 call God's blessing and wish peace and good will to all

    5 those who can hear this voice of protest, as well as to

    6 those who think differently."

    7 And this document is signed by a number of

    8 fathers, first of all, we have Father Likica Malicovic

    9 (phoen), the guardian of Fojnica, and Father Ivan

    10 Pervan, the parish priest of Kiseljak.

    11 So, tell us, please, first of all, whether

    12 you gave us this statement, this proclamation?

    13 A. Yes, I did.

    14 Q. And tell us the circumstances under which it

    15 came into being, why it was written, and in which way

    16 you published it and made it public to the people.

    17 A. Well, it was written out of the need that was

    18 felt at the time, which was not a good time, that it be

    19 the voice of reason, that it be the voice of human

    20 dignity, and that it be the voice of believers and

    21 those people who believe in God and who wish all people

    22 to be brothers. It was written at the time before the

    23 April conflicts.

    24 We compiled this document, wrote it, signed

    25 and published it in the public information media via

  20. 1 the local radio stations, local television, but also

    2 via the media which did not only exist in Kiseljak, but

    3 elsewhere, as well. So this was published by the

    4 Slobodna Dalmacija newspaper in Split, as well.

    5 Q. However, in April a new wave of refugees

    6 broke out in your parish. Can you explain to the

    7 Court -- and before that, may we place a map on the

    8 ELMO, and I should like to ask you to try and find the

    9 villages from which the new wave of refugees came to

    10 the Kiseljak municipality.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: The map is D425.

    12 MR. NOBILO: On the ELMO, please. Would you

    13 place the map on the ELMO, please?

    14 Q. We will move on to a larger map, because what

    15 I wanted to show you does not exist on this map.

    16 Would you please tell the Trial Chamber where

    17 the refugees came from in April, 1993 in the Kiseljak

    18 municipality, from which villages, and how many of them

    19 were there?

    20 A. In April, 1993, refugees came from the

    21 northern villages of the Brestoska parish, what

    22 remained of them, and especially from the southern part

    23 of the Kiseljak municipality, the part which links up

    24 the region towards Sarajevo.

    25 They are the villages of Pirin, Bukovica

  21. 1 Mokrine, Zabrdje, Medvjedice, Fojakovac (phoen), and

    2 then we have from Potofzezo (phoen), and refugees which

    3 were able from Zupa to come to us.

    4 Q. Would you please point Kiseljak out on the

    5 map to us, and then the area from which the refugees

    6 came in from the villages that you enumerated?

    7 A. (Indicating).

    8 Q. So that is the town of Kiseljak and the

    9 centre of your parish. Where did the refugees come

    10 from?

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Usher, would you please give

    12 the witness the microphone?

    13 A. From Gunjaca (phoen) and Brestoska, the

    14 houses which were near the church. And from the

    15 churches, the delineation line and the frontline was

    16 100 metres away from the church. I'm going to show you

    17 Pirin and the other places, but they won't be able to

    18 hear me.

    19 Q. We have a new microphone now, so you will be

    20 able to be heard.

    21 A. Bukovica, Mokrine, Zezelovo, Zabrdje,

    22 Medvjedice.

    23 Q. Tell me, what area of the municipalities, was

    24 it south-west?

    25 A. It is the southern reaches of the

  22. 1 municipality, that is to say, the part of the

    2 municipality linking up the territory towards Sarajevo,

    3 south of Kiseljak, the road towards Sarajevo.

    4 Q. Thank you, you may take your seat again.

    5 And tell the Court, please, what ethnic group

    6 did these refugees belong to from the villages that you

    7 have just enumerated and indicated to us, and who were

    8 they fleeing from?

    9 A. All the refugees were of the Croat ethnic

    10 group, Zupa and Kiseljak, about 1.500 of them came.

    11 Some of them remained in Zupa, Lepenaca, Bambrdo and

    12 some went to Zupa Gromiljak, to the parish of

    13 Gromiljak, and they fled in the face of the BH army.

    14 So, it was the Muslim army that they were fleeing

    15 from.

    16 Q. The new wave of refugees came in July, 1993.

    17 Can you explain to the Court the municipalities that

    18 these refugees had fled from, how many of them there

    19 were, what ethnic group they belonged to and who they

    20 were fleeing from?

    21 A. In July, on the 3rd and 4th of July, 1993, a

    22 large number of refugees, about 2.500 of them, came to

    23 the Kiseljak parish from the Fojnica municipality and

    24 from the Kresevo municipality.

    25 From the Kresevo municipality the Dezevice

  23. 1 parish, and from the Fojnica municipality from Fojnica

    2 proper, and all the upper villages around Fojnica, that

    3 is to say, the villages linking up the area towards

    4 Gornji Vakuf, Sebesic and the Laska Ravan.

    5 They had also fled after the conflict between

    6 the BH army and the HVO because their houses were set

    7 fire to, there were a lot of dead there, and they were

    8 all Croats, those who came to Kiseljak.

    9 And amongst them there was a priest who was

    10 in the village, he was not able to go back to Fojnica.

    11 Q. The next large wave of refugees came in

    12 November, 1993. Can you explain again to the Court

    13 which municipalities and which places these refugees

    14 came from, how many of them were there, what ethnic

    15 group did they belong to and why did they run away?

    16 A. Today is exactly five years from the date on

    17 which this took place. Exactly five years ago today,

    18 around 3.500 refugees came to Kiseljak. These are

    19 refugees who came from Catici, Kakanj, all the villages

    20 of Kraljeva Sutjeska, I can enumerate all of them if

    21 necessary, from Zupa, Borovica, from upper and lower

    22 Borovica, from Vares and all the surrounding villages.

    23 They came after the conflict between the army

    24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO.

    25 Through Brgul they came to Kiseljak. In

  24. 1 Kiseljak, later, 2.500 of them stayed on, but I also

    2 know for sure that many of these refugees immediately

    3 continued towards Stolac and Capljina, where they live

    4 until the present day.

    5 So, 3.500 of them came to Kiseljak, 2.500

    6 stayed on for good, and the other refugees from Kakanj

    7 proceeded to Herzegovina where they live until the

    8 present day.

    9 Q. Tell me, let us concentrate, rather, on state

    10 municipalities, rather than parishes. Is it true that

    11 in 1993, in November, these refugees were from Vares

    12 and Kakanj, those municipalities?

    13 A. I didn't understand you.

    14 Q. You told us what parishes these refugees came

    15 from; but if we were to look at municipalities, the

    16 state government units of administration, would it be

    17 correct to say that these refugees in November, 1993

    18 came from the municipality of Vares and the

    19 municipality of Kakanj?

    20 A. Yes, the municipality of Kakanj and the

    21 municipality of Vares.

    22 Q. Thank you. You said that before the war your

    23 parish had 4.300 Catholics.

    24 A. Yes, that is what I said.

    25 Q. During the war, did the number of your parish

  25. 1 go down? I mean amongst the original population.

    2 A. Yes, during the war I had less than 3.500 of

    3 them. From 1991 to 1993, many of them went to safer

    4 places, especially to western Europe, and during the

    5 war in 1993, I never had more than 3.500 parishioners.

    6 Q. So, in your municipality, or rather, in your

    7 parish, where there are less people, which is smaller

    8 than the municipality of Kiseljak, how many people did

    9 you receive at your peak time?

    10 A. I can prove and show that at end of 1993, in

    11 my parish, there were 14.000 refugees. But we must

    12 bear in mind the following: Kiseljak does not have

    13 only one parish, it also has the parish of Lepenica and

    14 the Zupa Gomoljica and of Lepenez (phoen). Gromoljan

    15 also took a lot of refugees, and at one point it was

    16 assumed that in the municipality of Kiseljak there were

    17 over 30.000 refugees.

    18 Q. So, if we are now to dwell on your parish

    19 only, which you know the best, of course, there were

    20 3.500 Catholics from amongst the local population, the

    21 original population, you received 14.000 people on the

    22 territory of your parish, all of them Catholics,

    23 Croats.

    24 This large concentration of refugees, which

    25 considerably exceeded the possibilities you had for

  26. 1 feeding them, giving them shelter, et cetera; did this

    2 also have a destructive effect on interhuman relations,

    3 interethnic relations, in particular?

    4 A. Oh, it was terrible. There is one more thing

    5 I wish to add. When the refugees came in, or rather

    6 before the war, Kiseljak and the municipality had

    7 25.000 inhabitants. During the war the municipality

    8 lost a lot of its territory, and therefore, a lot of

    9 the housing facilities.

    10 Also during the war many houses were

    11 destroyed, mined, torched, and when the refugees came

    12 in, although they are Catholics and Croats, and

    13 although they were often relatives, they quarrelled and

    14 especially over housing space, and this certainly had

    15 an effect on interethnic relations in the parish and in

    16 Kiseljak in general.

    17 Q. The parish of Kiseljak and the municipality

    18 of Kiseljak was abandoned by a large number of

    19 Muslims. Can you explain to the Court under which

    20 conditions this happened? What were the reasons why

    21 the Muslims were leaving the municipality of Kiseljak

    22 and your parish, for instance?

    23 A. Throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina it was the

    24 same. When the army would lose a battle somewhere, the

    25 army would withdraw, and together with the army the

  27. 1 people would leave, too. This happened with all three

    2 armies, with all three peoples, this happened wherever

    3 there were conflicts, wherever there was war.

    4 The other reason was, a very important one,

    5 was the following: I shall give you an example,

    6 rather.

    7 When the refugees from Fojnica came in, they

    8 went to the Muslim village of Duhre, and they told the

    9 villagers, Muslims of Duhre, that your Muslims had

    10 evicted them, our houses are in Fojnica, you go to

    11 Fojnica and we will live here, and that's exactly what

    12 happened.

    13 Later on in peacetime, until the present day,

    14 many houses are occupied in this way, people reached

    15 that kind of agreement, you live in my house and I will

    16 live in yours. There were quite a few such cases.

    17 Q. Was it always a matter of agreement, as you

    18 mentioned, between the population of Fojnica and the

    19 population of Duhre, or was there violence, too, and

    20 were some Muslims evicted from their houses by force by

    21 some of the refugees, and also by some of the

    22 extremists from amongst the Croats?

    23 A. Yes, there were forceful evictions of Muslims

    24 from their homes. There were extremists in the

    25 Croatian population.

  28. 1 Q. As time went by, the village of Rotilj became

    2 the home of a large number of Muslims. Tell the Court

    3 more about the village of Rotilj. Who lived there

    4 predominantly, what were the characteristics of this

    5 village?

    6 A. The village of Rotilj is a village that

    7 adjoins the town of Kiseljak. Most of the population

    8 was Muslim. The houses belonged to Croats and Muslims,

    9 but then the Croat village of Bjorne (phoen) is

    10 adjacent. They are only about 50 to 100 metres away,

    11 so these are Croat houses.

    12 This is a village that is by an asphalt road,

    13 it is a village that had electricity, telephones, a

    14 village that had a water supply of its own, its own

    15 fields, and it also had direct access to the forest.

    16 Many of the villagers worked in Kiseljak.

    17 So, it was one of the bigger Muslim

    18 villages. They could work in agriculture and work in

    19 the city at the same time, and also sell timber, which

    20 is very important, because 70 per cent of the

    21 population of Kiseljak still uses wood for heating.

    22 Q. During 1993, during the April fighting, a

    23 large number of Muslims from other villages came to the

    24 village of Rotilj so they could live there. Tell me,

    25 why were these villagers, these Muslims, fleeing their

  29. 1 villages?

    2 These were not villagers who fled together

    3 with the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so what are the

    4 other reasons that compelled these people to move into

    5 Rotilj?

    6 A. The fighting between the army of Bosnia and

    7 Herzegovina and the Croatian Defence Council started in

    8 Rotilj during the first days of the conflict, and this

    9 conflict was one of the first to end, as well, because

    10 the HVO won the battle in Rotilj, took away the arms,

    11 and peace came to prevail there.

    12 After the first fighting in Rotilj, there

    13 were never more conflicts, there were never anymore

    14 conflicts. A few houses were burned down in Rotilj,

    15 however, many houses remained intact.

    16 Many Muslims who were evicted by the refugees

    17 thought that the fighting would stop, perhaps, and they

    18 wanted to be closer to their own homes, and they went

    19 to Rotilj, either to stay with their relatives or in an

    20 abandoned house.

    21 I remember an example of this kind, a man

    22 from Kiseljak, Mirsad Mujkic, he was a baker, and at

    23 that time I was not in Kiseljak, he was evicted from

    24 his own home, together with his wife and two children,

    25 and a family came to stay there, a family of nine. He

  30. 1 also went to Rotilj with his wife and children.

    2 When I came home, after my trip, I brought

    3 him into the house of Zdravko Lukic (phoen), a Croat in

    4 town, and that is where he spent the war, together with

    5 his family.

    6 They are Muslims, but they spent the war in

    7 the house of Zdravko Lukic, and the civilian and

    8 military and political authorities knew about this.

    9 So, many people went to Rotilj simply trying to get

    10 away from the war.

    11 Q. Tell me, who are the Muslims who came to

    12 Rotilj, from what villages?

    13 A. To the best of my knowledge from Duhra

    14 Ardanovic, Duhre, Pernjaci (phoen), Palez, Kacuprija

    15 (phoen), Donji Palez, Kiseljak.

    16 Q. You described the forceful eviction of people

    17 by refugees and Muslim villages and in the town of

    18 Kiseljak through the example that you just mentioned to

    19 us; and tell me, did you know of the HVO, the army

    20 coming in to a village, putting people into trucks and

    21 moving them out of the village concerned?

    22 A. I'm not aware of such cases.

    23 Q. In Rotilj, a ramp was placed at the entrance

    24 to the village; who put this there and why, and for

    25 what reason, to the best of your knowledge?

  31. 1 A. When the fighting stopped in Rotilj itself,

    2 when the fighting stopped in Rotilj itself, then at the

    3 entrance into the village, just above town, a ramp was

    4 placed. It was simply a log which would be moved by

    5 hand up and down.

    6 Q. Just a minute. I think that there is a

    7 mistake in translation. When we are talking about a

    8 ramp, we are talking about a BRKLJA, and in English it

    9 was said "ramp", and I think that that means some kind

    10 of a take off. Could you please describe what was on

    11 the road?

    12 A. Let us assume that there is a road between me

    13 and the Honourable Judges, and let us assume it is 20

    14 centimetres wide, and then the ramp I'm referring to is

    15 a log that was placed as a road block. It is a log,

    16 five to ten centimetres wide, 4 to 5 metres long; so,

    17 it's there as a road block, rather.

    18 Q. Who else was there and why was this done?

    19 A. So this roadblock, as we are going to call it

    20 from now on, was placed at the initiative of the people

    21 from the village of Borina. The reason is the that

    22 Muslims from the village of Rotilj wanted to protect

    23 themselves from those people who wished to go to Rotilj

    24 and to harm the Muslims in some way, either to rob them

    25 or to mistreat them spiritually or physically. So that

  32. 1 was the main reason.

    2 First days, and I remember that well, at that

    3 roadblock were two elderly men without any weapons.

    4 Their task was the following: If somebody wanted to

    5 get into Rotilj, they should use the phone that they

    6 had there to let the police or the army know about it.

    7 I didn't ask them who they were supposed to notify.

    8 This ramp was a precautionary measure so that something

    9 wrong wouldn't happen.

    10 Q. Perhaps now we could distribute the maps that

    11 we already introduced into evidence, and we have copies

    12 for the Honourable Judges and for our colleagues from

    13 the Prosecution.

    14 Father Ivan, you can sit down now. We'll

    15 bring the ELMO up to you and it will be more practical

    16 that way. So if you'll take a seat.

    17 Would you repeat the number of the exhibit,

    18 please?

    19 THE REGISTRAR: For the map it's D425.

    20 MR. NOBILO:

    21 Q. Sit down, please. I'm going to ask you a

    22 question.

    23 According to your knowledge -- I'm going to

    24 ask you a question. As far as you know, was Rotilj a

    25 camp or not, a prison camp or not?

  33. 1 A. I maintain that it was not a camp.

    2 Q. Why do you say that?

    3 A. Because the barrier or the roadblock was set

    4 up at the entrance to the village of Rotilj in a place

    5 called Privori. From the village of Rotilj there are

    6 many other roads which can be taken to lead you to all

    7 the roads in the Kiseljak municipality, and roads in

    8 the Kresevo municipality.

    9 Q. Let us dwell for a moment on these roads, and

    10 turn, if you will, to the map, please, and explain to

    11 the Court what number 1 marked on the map means, what

    12 it denotes, and use your indicator to tell us what

    13 number 1 means.

    14 A. Number 1 is the exact position of the

    15 roadblock.

    16 Q. Would you show us the road from Kiseljak to

    17 Rotilj?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. What do the numbers from 2 to 8 represent,

    20 and the arrows there, the numbers and the arrows from 2

    21 to 8?

    22 A. These numbers from 2 to 8 and the arrows

    23 represent alternative paths from which you can get out

    24 of Rotilj.

    25 Q. Can you use a tractor or car to traverse

  34. 1 those roads?

    2 A. Yes, you can still exit by car, such as a

    3 Volkeswagen Golf, although the roads have not been seen

    4 to for the last five years. They have not been

    5 repaired for the last five years.

    6 Q. Tell us whether around the village of Rotilj,

    7 which is a circle marked on the map, whether there were

    8 any guards, and whether there were any mines, and

    9 whether these roads were guarded in any way, the roads

    10 around the village.

    11 A. Around the village of Rotilj, as far as I

    12 know, there were no obstacles, no barriers, no guard

    13 points, checkpoints, and the road was not mined.

    14 Q. In addition to the roadblock on the road

    15 which was made up of a log, as we already said, and two

    16 HVO soldiers manning it, could you reach the villages

    17 circumventing that block?

    18 A. Yes, but this is the easiest way because it

    19 is an asphalt road, whereas in other places, if

    20 somebody wanted to go to the village, the villagers,

    21 for example, from Borina, that is number 2 on the map,

    22 those who wanted to protect these people would see it

    23 and they would react to the situation, so that it was

    24 the psychological indicator to those who wished to

    25 enter that -- the village was being guarded and watched

  35. 1 over that nothing terrible could happen.

    2 Q. Were there any Croat houses and Croatians in

    3 the village of Rotilj throughout the war?

    4 A. Well, throughout the war, and before the war,

    5 during the war, and after the conflict as well in the

    6 village of Rotilj, which is predominantly a Muslim

    7 village, there were Croats. Immediately after the

    8 roadblock, the barrier, towards Rotilj, there were

    9 Croats living there.

    10 Q. How many Croatian houses and how many Croats

    11 lived in the village of Rotilj throughout 1993?

    12 A. Up until the arrival of the refugees, the

    13 Croat refugees to the village of Rotilj, who still live

    14 in Rotilj, together with the Muslim population in

    15 Muslim houses there were at least 10 houses which were

    16 permanently inhabited in Rotilj. And let me repeat

    17 once again, and I'm going to show you the road from

    18 Rotilj and Borina, which are asphalt roads, and between

    19 those two places Croats and Muslims live along side

    20 each other. They live along side each other today,

    21 they did so before, during, and as I say, after the

    22 conflict. (Indicating). So between these two roads

    23 Croats and Muslims lived together, from the roadblock,

    24 during the conflict, and Croats used to live here as

    25 well.

  36. 1 Q. Tell me, please, whether the Muslims from

    2 Rotilj would go to your church in Kiseljak on business

    3 of any kind.

    4 A. Yes. They used to come. They could go by

    5 the roadblock or via Borina and past the cemetery.

    6 Q. Could you show us the road they would have

    7 used?

    8 A. They came this way and took what they needed

    9 (indicating). I should like to mention that at that

    10 time, while the ramp --I'm using the word "ramp", but

    11 shall I say the barrier, or obstacle or block, while it

    12 existed in Privori and throughout the time after that,

    13 these people had a Croat physician in the village.

    14 Actually, it was a lady doctor that saw to their

    15 health, and they would come to her at all times during

    16 the day and night. If they had other requirements,

    17 other needs, they would either come to the doctor up to

    18 the roadblock, ask for medical aid and assistance. And

    19 I know this personally because I visited the lady

    20 doctor, and I know that an ambulance, together with a

    21 doctor, and a nurse and the driver would go to Rotilj

    22 and give medical assistance there.

    23 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, do you think this

    24 is a good time to take a break, perhaps?

    25 JUDGE JORDA: I was waiting for the end of

  37. 1 the questions about Rotilj. We're going to suspend the

    2 hearing until 11.50

    3 --- Recess taken at 11.28 a.m.

    4 --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume. Have the

    6 accused brought in, please.

    7 (The accused entered court)

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Would I like to apologise for

    9 the delay. It was my fault, but I had some other

    10 business to attend to during the break, since the break

    11 is only the time that I can. However, I am not guilty

    12 of the fact that the map has fallen off.

    13 MR. NOBILO: Thank you.

    14 Q. Father Pervan, before the break we talked

    15 about the roads leading out of Rotilj. Nobody guarded

    16 them, they weren't mined. Could you tell me and then

    17 could you show me on the map whether one could go from

    18 Rotilj to territory controlled by BH army? If so,

    19 could you please show this to us?

    20 A. Yes. One could reach the territory under the

    21 control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in this way,

    22 and in several ways, rather. There were many roads

    23 leading towards that territory. All these roads went

    24 through the forest, but they were all accessible and

    25 you could go through them.

  38. 1 I'm going to show you at least one road that

    2 one could take to -- from Rotilj to the territory

    3 controlled by the army of BH. So it went through

    4 Suplja Bukva, Jelacke, through Katici and Popina

    5 (phoen), and to Rakova Noga, and from Rakova Noga

    6 towards Ramici, Hodzici, Handzici, Grmacki and from

    7 Grmacki the road to Crnicki Kamenik, which was then and

    8 is until the present day under the control of the army

    9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'll show you on the big map

    10 too.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: The map is D426.

    12 A. This is Rotilj. This is the road that goes

    13 to Suka Bukve from this side, and it goes back to

    14 Jelacke. The same road can be taken the other way

    15 around. Underneath Vis again to Ravni Grad and then to

    16 Jelacke. From Jelacki the road goes down to Popina one

    17 and a half kilometres away, then to Rahmici and

    18 Hodzici. I have to take a look so I can see properly.

    19 From Hodzici and Grmacki it goes to Crnicki Kamenik.

    20 Crnicki Kamenik is a Croatian village with a chapel

    21 which was taken by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

    22 it stayed there. And this entire territory down here

    23 is under control of the BH army, and is so until the

    24 present day.

    25 Q. Thank you, please sit down. Father Pervan,

  39. 1 what is the first time you personally went to Rotilj,

    2 on what occasion and why?

    3 A. This was at the very beginning when the

    4 fighting broke out. The fighting that was less

    5 intensive than the conflicts that took place before

    6 that, and a lot less intensive than what ensued.

    7 Near the church in Kiseljak, and near my

    8 flat, there is a hotel called Dalmacija, which was the

    9 UNPROFOR base.

    10 One evening, at 10.00, Mr. Daniel Furman came

    11 from UNPROFOR. I don't know what he did in UNPROFOR, I

    12 don't know his exact post, but we often saw each

    13 other. Later on, he drove me in a carrier to Fojnica

    14 when the priests were killed, and he came and told me

    15 that in UNPROFOR they had food for Muslims, notably for

    16 children, in Rotilj, but that there was a roadblock up

    17 there, and then he asked me to take that food up

    18 there.

    19 I got ready. I took my own car, I put the

    20 seats down, I went to the UNPROFOR base. I loaded the

    21 food into the car and everything else that was there,

    22 and I drove it to Rotilj between 10.15 and quarter to

    23 eleven at night. That is to say, between 10.15 p.m.

    24 And 10.45 p.m.

    25 I went straight to Salko Hodzic's house. I

  40. 1 gave this to him. When I came to Rotilj I walked into

    2 the first house where the Muslims were and I asked

    3 which one of them was in charge of their affairs, and

    4 he -- and they said, "Salko Hodzic." I went to see

    5 Salko Hodzic. I gave it to him, and we have been

    6 co-operating until the present day.

    7 Q. Tell me, after this first trip you took, in a

    8 way we can see from this document that Rotilj became

    9 part of your regular system of supplies. After that

    10 would you come to Rotilj regularly and bring in food?

    11 A. I did not take food to Rotilj any more, I

    12 would go there to see them, have coffee and talk to

    13 them, but the director of Caritas and the workers of

    14 Caritas would invariably take them food.

    15 Q. Tell me, from your perception and from the

    16 conversations you had with other people, did you see

    17 anything that would lead you to the conclusion that

    18 Rotilj was a camp, or did any one of the Muslims

    19 complain to you that they were in a camp and that they

    20 were not free?

    21 A. Rotilj was not a camp. The Muslims in Rotilj

    22 did complain of their living conditions. They were

    23 complaining because their relatives were not there,

    24 there was shooting, people were getting killed, there

    25 was a war going on, but in Rotilj no one persecuted

  41. 1 them, especially when other Croats came to Rotilj.

    2 Then I was often a witness of them drinking coffee

    3 together.

    4 I assert that Rotilj was not a camp. What

    5 all other refugees from other places had, they had

    6 too. Of course, we have to say it was not easy for

    7 them by virtue of the fact that there was a war between

    8 the Croats and Muslims, and they were Muslims. And it

    9 was not easy for them from a psychological point of

    10 view, and psychological pain is a very difficult thing

    11 as well, but I assert once again that Rotilj was not a

    12 camp.

    13 Q. In 1993, when you went to see Muslims and had

    14 coffee with them --

    15 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

    16 Q. In 1993, when you went to Rotilj to have

    17 coffee with the Muslims as you said, did somebody say,

    18 "This is a camp, we are detained"?

    19 A. No. No one ever told me that.

    20 Q. Please tell the Court, why did you take food

    21 to Rotilj while other refugees came to the Caritas

    22 warehouse to collect food? What was the reason for

    23 this?

    24 A. I shall tell you the following: For a long

    25 period of time, we would store food in our upper

  42. 1 church. The churchyard is big enough for 30 cars only,

    2 so it's a very small churchyard, although the church

    3 itself is big. We wanted to avoid any kind of

    4 commotion. That is why we took food to Rotilj

    5 ourselves, for two reasons. And we also took food to

    6 Brnjaci for another reason. In Rotilj, where the

    7 Muslims were, we took food because it was easier for us

    8 to load this food in large quantities and ask them to

    9 distribute it themselves. So it was easier for us this

    10 way, because the Caritas organisation of Kiseljak had

    11 six and a half thousand voluntary days of work. That

    12 is to say that very many people worked for years. So

    13 we didn't want to have any commotion. That was one

    14 reason.

    15 The other reason was that, heaven forbid, any

    16 kind of incident break out in front of the church or in

    17 the church, because the fathers and mothers of people

    18 who got killed in Kiseljak in those days were coming to

    19 the church, and that is why I took food to Brnjaci,

    20 which was a 100 per cent Croat and Catholic village.

    21 So those were the reasons why I did that.

    22 Q. What were supplies like in Rotilj at that

    23 time? Did Rotilj have more or less food than Visoko,

    24 for example, where Muslims lived under BH army

    25 control?

  43. 1 A. I must say something that was positive in

    2 Kiseljak and Visoko. From September and October, at

    3 the lines near Kiseljak and Visoko, there were not any

    4 attacks when the Croats from Kiseljak and the Muslims

    5 from Visoko were manning the lines.

    6 Many people from Kiseljak and Visoko knew

    7 each other because they are only 13 kilometres away. A

    8 lot of them went to Kiseljak and a lot of them went to

    9 Visoko, before the war.

    10 So, when the BH army was on one side,

    11 consisting of people from Visoko, and on the other side

    12 when they were Croats from Kiseljak, there was no

    13 shooting at these lines. People would shout and talk

    14 to one another because the trenches were often 10 or 20

    15 metres away from one another.

    16 On one occasion on a radio frequency, they

    17 had agreed on what the radio frequency would be, it was

    18 14.500, they talked to one another without introducing

    19 themselves.

    20 An HVO soldier told the man on the other

    21 side, "I know who you are," and he said, "no, you

    22 don't," and he said, "I know him, I know you, and I

    23 know your father, and I watch him every day from my

    24 house. You are Hodzic's men," and he said, "Tell my

    25 father to send me a parcel to Visoko."

  44. 1 So from that one may conclude that Muslims in

    2 Visoko had less food than the Muslims in Kiseljak. I

    3 know for sure that a sack of flour in Visoko was a

    4 hundred Deutschmark and in Kiseljak no one bought

    5 flour, and the Muslims didn't buy flour, either.

    6 Q. We heard before this Court that Rotilj was

    7 overpopulated, that there were a lot of people staying

    8 in one house; and how would you comment on that?

    9 A. Well, that is true. In Rotilj, as I said,

    10 some houses had burned down. So, there was less

    11 housing space. A lot of people came to Rotilj, and I

    12 know that in the house of Salko Hodzic, there were 17

    13 people staying there.

    14 I went there for coffee and it was hot, so we

    15 sat outside. But I must say that in my house, also,

    16 the parish house, on the floor, on sponge mats, I had

    17 15 people staying there for 15 days, that is where they

    18 slept and that is where they ate.

    19 When refugees would come in, and when they

    20 would seek shelter, then Muslims would go and stay with

    21 each other, especially in bigger houses.

    22 There is one more thing I wish to mention in

    23 connection with food in Visoko. Before the war, I had

    24 a friend, a Muslim, his name was Samir Topalovic. His

    25 father's name was Fadil, his father was in Kiseljak, he

  45. 1 works at the public utilities company, and he received

    2 his salary throughout the war.

    3 Samir came from Rotilj to see me at the

    4 parish house while the roadblock was still there, and

    5 he said that he had trouble with his kidneys, and when

    6 he went to the toilet that there was blood in his

    7 urine, and he asked me whether I could help him get to

    8 Visoko and then to Zenica to the hospital. And I did

    9 that.

    10 When he was supposed to go, he came to see me

    11 again, and he asked me whether he would take a parcel

    12 of food from Rotilj to Visoko. My friend Samir went

    13 and, unfortunately, he got killed in the fighting at

    14 Zavrtaljka, and he was brought dead to Kiseljak.

    15 Q. When you say he got killed, what do you mean;

    16 later, or then when he was crossing to Visoko?

    17 A. He got killed three months after he left.

    18 Q. You said that in Split you had a warehouse of

    19 the Caritas organisation for the entire diocese of

    20 Bosnia. Could you tell me who sent supplies to this

    21 warehouse and what road you took and what this trip

    22 would be like and who you had to discuss this with and

    23 how you did it, in general terms.

    24 So, please, where was your warehouse, first

    25 of all, in Split?

  46. 1 A. The Caritas organisation of the Bosnia

    2 diocese got a big warehouse at TTS in order to store

    3 their food supplies. Various humanitarian

    4 organisations used that warehouse, and the various

    5 Caritas organisations of various municipalities, and

    6 various Bishop organisations.

    7 We got food from many countries, for example,

    8 I know for sure from France, Switzerland, Austria,

    9 Germany, and particularly Sweden.

    10 Q. Food was in Croatia, and now we have up here

    11 on the easel a map where the zones of responsibilities

    12 are of the army of Republika Srpska, red colour; green

    13 colour, army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; and yellow colour

    14 denotes the HVO.

    15 Could you explain to the Court which road you

    16 had to take and through whose territory and how many

    17 kilometres to Split to collect this food?

    18 A. Do you want me to get up?

    19 Q. Yes, please do, and show this on the map.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: What is the date of the map?

    21 You are defining the zones of influence of the various

    22 armies, but it would be better for you to state

    23 precisely the month, because the situation would

    24 change.

    25 You said in blue you have the Bosnian army;

  47. 1 is that correct?

    2 MR. NOBILO: No, no, the Bosnian army is

    3 green. Green is the Bosnian army, yellow is the HVO

    4 and red is the army of Republika Srpska. During the

    5 Washington Accords -- I think it's a mistake, it's a

    6 mistake in colours. This is what it looked like after

    7 the April conflict.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: There is blue here. The

    9 question I'm asking, I should have asked it right away,

    10 I don't like to interrupt, but I should have asked this

    11 question: If you want to make the explanations of your

    12 witness clear, we have to know what is the date that

    13 you are defining the places and what the colours

    14 represent. If I have understood correctly, the red is

    15 the Serbian army.

    16 MR. NOBILO: This is the map during the

    17 fighting. This is when the Washington Accords were

    18 signed, after the war. This is what this map shows.

    19 The armies that are shown held this particular area

    20 under their control at the end of the war.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: At the end of the war, then; is

    22 that what you are saying?

    23 MR. NOBILO: The end of the war, yes.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: So, the red is the Serb army.

    25 MR. NOBILO: Exactly.

  48. 1 JUDGE JORDA: And the entire territory

    2 indicated in green is what?

    3 MR. NOBILO: Is under control of the army of

    4 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: And yellow is what you would

    6 call the HVO enclaves; is that correct?

    7 MR. NOBILO: Yes, that is the territory under

    8 HVO control.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: And the blue mark?

    10 MR. NOBILO: The blue should be zones that

    11 were under UN control.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Thank you very

    13 much.

    14 MR. NOBILO:

    15 Q. So this map is important for us so that we

    16 can see who held what territory, so that we could see

    17 what the road from Kiseljak to Split was, where

    18 humanitarian aid was taken.

    19 So Fra Pervan, please show the Court the

    20 enclave of Kiseljak, and describe your trip from

    21 Kiseljak to Split and back.

    22 A. The enclave of Kiseljak, that is where the

    23 tip, this tip here, the tip of the indicator, the

    24 pointer. It is, for the most part, surrounded by the

    25 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

  49. 1 On one short section the enclave of Kiseljak

    2 is under the control of the Croatian Defence Council,

    3 and this borders on the army of the Republika Srpska.

    4 That place is called Kobiljaca, and it is on the road

    5 from Kiseljak, Ilidza to Sarajevo.

    6 In August we had a lot of refugees already,

    7 and there was a threat of catastrophe breaking out.

    8 The food supplies had already dwindled and were

    9 disappearing, and we were afraid of a catastrophe

    10 breaking out.

    11 The people responsible in Kiseljak of the

    12 civilian military and police authorities there, they

    13 contacted the authorities of the Republika Srpska, I

    14 think with the approval of their superiors. They

    15 decided that from Kiseljak, via the territory of the

    16 Republika Srpska controlled by the Serbian army, that a

    17 route could be made, a road taken towards Croatia, that

    18 is to say, towards Split, which is where we wanted it

    19 to go.

    20 But that remuneration was to be made, that

    21 is, payment was to be made for passing through that

    22 way. I started out with a convoy from Kiseljak, and on

    23 the small map you can see these places better, and I'm

    24 going to enumerate them now. There are quite a lot of

    25 these places, but let us take them in this order:

  50. 1 Kiseljak, Kobiljaca, Rakovica, Ilidza, Semizovac,

    2 Srednje, Vucja Luka, Pale, Han Pijesak, Vlasenica,

    3 Zvornik, Bijeljna, Brcko, Samac, Modrica, Doboj,

    4 Derventa, Prnjavor, Banja Luka, Prijedor, Glamoc,

    5 Bosansko Grahovo, Livno, Tril, Hlis and Split.

    6 Q. How many kilometres is that route in length?

    7 A. The route is 1.196 kilometres long.

    8 Q. And how far is it from Kiseljak to Split?

    9 A. Kiseljak, Split is 289 kilometres.

    10 Q. You may resume your seat.

    11 You said that the civilian and military

    12 authorities had planned this passage for you to take

    13 the humanitarian aid through, they had decided upon

    14 that with the Serbs, and you had passed that route

    15 several times in another shorter route, as well, and we

    16 will mention this later on.

    17 Can you describe to us the conditions, the

    18 agreement made with the Serbs on that occasion?

    19 A. I said, that is to say from 1995 up to the

    20 present day, I said at least 20 times that if I had to

    21 take that route again I would say I'm not going. It

    22 was a very difficult route, and a very ugly one.

    23 We had MacAdam road surfaces on many

    24 occasions, very often we had to have a truck with us,

    25 and they would take the food. We were maltreated. We

  51. 1 were mistreated both by the Serb soldiers, and there

    2 were some words that I cannot repeat to this Court

    3 today, and gestures which I cannot show to anybody,

    4 they were so, in such poor taste.

    5 But we were sworn at, we were cursed, our

    6 national identity was cursed and our religion was

    7 cursed, in very vulgar terms. And very often we,

    8 although we were accompanied by the Serb police, we

    9 never reached our destination intact.

    10 They took the canvasses off our trucks, and

    11 very often there was shooting, and we passed close by

    12 to the delineation point between the two armies, the

    13 Serb army and the BH army, and the BH army attacked our

    14 convoys very often and opened fire on us.

    15 In the Posedena region between Orasje and

    16 Rijeka, thinking that it was Serb trucks that were

    17 passing, the HVO even shot at us.

    18 Q. Tell us, please, whether at one point you

    19 were taken hostage for a number of days on Serb

    20 territory, and if so, what the conditions accompanying

    21 this were.

    22 A. When the agreement was reached, of course,

    23 there was no love lost between us, and it was a very

    24 difficult time. At one point we were housed in the

    25 camp in Sanski Most, we were put up there, and on

  52. 1 another occasion we waited to be given passage, free

    2 passage in Stolac up to 11.00 p.m.

    3 Q. Why did they refuse to let you pass?

    4 A. On one occasion, for 26 hours, I was in

    5 prison in Bileca, and what happened was the following:

    6 The price of free passage for the convoy carrying food,

    7 supplies and clothing was to be paid to the Serbs, and

    8 if everything was not okay, the Serbs would wait for

    9 the money to be paid in and would hold us hostage

    10 during that time.

    11 I remember on one occasion the price for

    12 passage was ten cisterns of petrol. Ten passed, the

    13 tenth was late, and we had to wait until this fuel

    14 supply had been met.

    15 When I was in Bileca in the prison the

    16 conditions were very difficult there. I felt

    17 miserable, and I thought that I would never leave that

    18 prison. On that occasion, the price was 10.000

    19 Deutschmarks to be paid for free passage.

    20 At the entrance to the territory of Republika

    21 Srpska this sum was not paid on time and we had to wait

    22 in the prison until the money was paid. And they had

    23 rifles, which had already been filled with ammunition,

    24 so I was afraid of losing my life.

    25 Q. From your viewpoint, and with regard to the

  53. 1 humanitarian convoys, do you think this co-operation

    2 was justified?

    3 A. Well, as a man, I say that I physically would

    4 not have survived this, but in my mind, and in my soul,

    5 if necessary, I would justify this tomorrow and I would

    6 do it all again, if I were able to go through the same

    7 hardships physically.

    8 I think that all my sufferings, all the

    9 difficulties that I had and my drivers had were nothing

    10 compared to how much we were able to save the people,

    11 and that was more valuable. The act is always more

    12 valuable than the hardships you have to go through to

    13 achieve those acts.

    14 Q. Could you please tell the Court, for us to

    15 get a general impression, how big was your convoy? How

    16 many tons of food were you able to take in one

    17 particular tour of this convoy?

    18 A. Well, the most aid that I was able to take

    19 over was 1.032 tons, 44 trucks and one bus, which was

    20 full of food, and I gave this food to the Serbian

    21 civilians and soldiers; although, we had paid for our

    22 free passage, but they wouldn't allow us to pass before

    23 we gave them some food.

    24 So, at one point I gave them all five tons,

    25 and was able to take only ten parcels with me.

  54. 1 Q. Apart from your convoy, did Kiseljak organise

    2 commercial convoys of any kind, in the sense of trade,

    3 selling, buying and selling? If so, could you tell us

    4 who organised this and the kind of goods that were

    5 bought and sold in this way and to whom they were sold?

    6 A. Yes. The municipal authorities, both

    7 civilian and military, at that time organised what was

    8 known as commercial convoys, and these convoys, too,

    9 had to be paid for. I think that they were more

    10 expensive than the humanitarian convoys, and thank God

    11 they did not bring, they did not bring flour, oil and

    12 sugar.

    13 For the most part they bought these goods in

    14 Croatia and in Europe and then sold those goods.

    15 Q. What goods were they?

    16 A. Well, for example, cigarettes, alcoholic

    17 beverage, and goods that were expensive, as well as

    18 clothing, footwear, jewellery and watches.

    19 Q. And who were these goods sold to?

    20 A. These goods were sold both in Kiseljak

    21 proper; but most of the goods were sold in the area

    22 from Kiseljak to Visoko, that is to say, to the

    23 Muslims.

    24 Q. Did you say, was anything sold to the Serbs,

    25 or were any exchanges made with the Serbs?

  55. 1 A. It was difficult to sell these goods to the

    2 Serbs because the Serbs didn't have money to pay for

    3 them, and if some of these goods were given to the

    4 Serbs, it was on the basis of a barter, of an exchange

    5 sort of system.

    6 Q. Do you consider that this kind of trade,

    7 during those war days, on the part of the civilian and

    8 military authorities, that a significant amount of

    9 money was collected, which represented a certain amount

    10 of economic power, which was not typical in other areas

    11 as in Central Bosnia?

    12 A. Yes, that's true. This kind of trade that

    13 went on with the Muslim side, and we know today that

    14 those goods went up to Tuzla and Zenica, they made

    15 Kiseljak economically, and later on, both militarily

    16 stronger.

    17 For example, Kiseljak had an army, and it was

    18 thanks to the goods that it sold in Visoko that it got

    19 from the Muslims in Visoko 400.000 pairs of army

    20 boots.

    21 I know for a fact that from Breza via Visoko,

    22 for the primary school and secondary school, we bought

    23 coal, and it came from Visoko and Breza, so that our

    24 school had heating in the very difficult cold days.

    25 Why it had heating, I did not state this, when the

  56. 1 refugees came to us and we spoke about the lack of

    2 space and that more refugees had to be put up in one

    3 house, throughout the war in the primary school and

    4 secondary school we had collective lodging for the

    5 Croat refugees.

    6 This collective housing is ongoing in

    7 Kiseljak today, because there are still refugees there,

    8 and we still do not have enough flats and houses to

    9 accommodate them in.

    10 Q. What about the situation in Kiseljak, as far

    11 as supplies were concerned? Were the shops open? Did

    12 you have citric fruits and bananas and things that

    13 could not have been thought about in Bosnia at that

    14 time?

    15 A. Yes, in Kiseljak the shops were open, they

    16 worked all the time, as did the cafes. On a regular

    17 basis I went to have coffee in the cafes, and a drink,

    18 and all the kind of things were functioning which

    19 nobody could imagine at that time in the rest of

    20 Bosnia.

    21 Q. You personally, did you take part only in the

    22 humanitarian convoys, or did you participate in the

    23 commercial convoys?

    24 A. No, I only took part in the humanitarian

    25 convoys. I had nothing to do with the commercial

  57. 1 convoys. I knew about them, I knew the prices, I knew

    2 what was being sold and the kind of goods they had, but

    3 materially speaking, physically speaking, I did not

    4 participate in them.

    5 Q. On the map, when you showed us the arrows and

    6 the 1.000 kilometre route that you took to Split, there

    7 is a shorter route marked with two arrows. Could you

    8 explain to the Trial Chamber what that route shows?

    9 A. In the second stage of our travels towards

    10 Croatia and Split, we received approval from the Serbs

    11 to shorten our route, because they had de-mined a part

    12 of their territory around Stolac, so we were able to

    13 shorten our route, and that is the route we took later

    14 on.

    15 That particular route leads from Kiseljak,

    16 out of Kiseljak towards Kobiljaca, Rakovica, Ilidza,

    17 Semizovac, Srednje, Vucja Luka, Pale, Bukovica, Trnovo,

    18 Dobra Polje, and I forgot to mention Foca, and then we

    19 have Gacko, we go on to Gacko, and from Gacko up to the

    20 cross-roads of Planje, and then on to Berkovici from

    21 Berkovici to Stolac, from Stolac to Capljina, from

    22 Capljina to Citluk, from Citluk we went to Grude, from

    23 Grude to Imovski (phoen) from Imovski, once again,

    24 through Senj, or from Capljina we would go down to

    25 Metkovic and use the Adriatic road towards Split.

  58. 1 Q. Can we, therefore, say that on the map which

    2 shows the routes, the route you have just described,

    3 leads to the south and is marked with two parallel

    4 arrows?

    5 A. Yes, that is correct.

    6 Q. Was this map drawn up according to

    7 instructions from you?

    8 A. Yes, I stuck it together myself.

    9 Q. Let us move to a different subject now, and

    10 that is the way that Kiseljak was cut off from Vitez

    11 and Busovaca.

    12 When, according to your recollections, were

    13 communication lines cut off for the first time between

    14 Busovaca and Kiseljak?

    15 A. According to my knowledge, this was in the

    16 third decade (sic) of January, the end of January, when

    17 conflicts broke out along the edges of the Kiseljak and

    18 Busovaca municipality, that is to say, conflicts in

    19 Klokoti, as we call this area, it is the village of

    20 Bilalova, Klokoti, Kacuni, Gusti Grab, Bukovci, Crpe

    21 (phoen), Nezirovci, Besici and Donja Polje.

    22 Q. When you personally were in Busavaca, when

    23 were you last in Busovaca and how did you get there?

    24 A. The last time I was in Busovaca was after the

    25 conflict in January, that is to say, after the first

  59. 1 conflict in Klokoti, a cease-fire reigned and that

    2 lasted up until April. As there was a war house in

    3 1992, and I brought food there, I had a war house in my

    4 church, I wanted to take food to the Caritas

    5 organisation for the parish in Busovaca.

    6 One day I went to Bilalovac, I found Mr. Ganu

    7 and Mr. Sefer there, they were policemen in Kiseljak,

    8 and I knew them, and I asked them to give me permission

    9 to take two truckloads of food to Busovaca, and this is

    10 what they told me: They said, "We can give you safe

    11 passage, and we're going to give it to you, but you

    12 have to go to the municipality of Kacuni, and you will

    13 receive additional permission there."

    14 When they went to Bilalovac they set up the

    15 Kiseljak municipality there.

    16 Q. Who are you thinking of there?

    17 A. The Muslims, the Muslims in Kacuni founded

    18 the municipality of Busovaca, and I was given

    19 permission by them, and one of their policemen took me

    20 to Kacuni, he asked me whether I knew where the house

    21 of Enijad Mekic was, Enijad Mekic before the war was a

    22 Hodza and he was president of the party of democratic

    23 action. I went to his house, I was wearing a uniform,

    24 and I found Enijad sitting down wearing a uniform of

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

  60. 1 Q. When you say you were in uniform, what kind

    2 of uniform were you wearing?

    3 A. No, no, my uniform is the Franciscan, the

    4 type of Franciscan robes of our order, that Franciscans

    5 all the over the world wear. I said why I had come and

    6 we knew each other from before the war, and he took me

    7 to Husnija and there was some very unpleasant talks

    8 there, but I was given permission. I went back to

    9 Kiseljak and on that day in the afternoon I loaded up

    10 two trucks and the morning after I left. In Kacuni the

    11 trucks were examined in great detail. They didn't

    12 curse us, they didn't swear at us, they didn't do

    13 anything to us, they let us go towards Busovaca. We

    14 unloaded there, went back to Kiseljak, and that was the

    15 last time that I went to Kiseljak up until the

    16 cease-fire in 1994.

    17 Q. You mean the last time you were in Busovaca?

    18 A. Yes, I'm sorry, Busovaca.

    19 Q. Would you give us the date? When was that?

    20 A. My convoy, you mean? Yes, I think that it

    21 was at the beginning of March, 1993.

    22 Q. When was the territory between Busovaca and

    23 Vitez - sorry, Kiseljak, cut off completely? When did

    24 you notice this, when was this cut off, and when did

    25 you come to the territory, or rather, how did you come

  61. 1 to the territory of Kiseljak in May 1993?

    2 A. After the January conflict, when there was a

    3 cease-fire, after the Easter holidays, I went through

    4 Kresevo, Tarcin and Konjic, and Mostar, I went out of

    5 Croatia. I went to Europe. I went on a trip.

    6 When I came back from Europe, when I went to

    7 Split, I could not reach Kiseljak anymore. I waited

    8 for a few days in Split, and then I heard that in

    9 Citluk there were also people who wanted to go to

    10 Central Bosnia to Kiseljak, Zepce and Vares. I came to

    11 Citluk with my own car and my driver, and I asked who

    12 wanted to come with me. And I said, "Well, let's go,

    13 and let's hope for the best." Many people wanted to

    14 come along from Vares, Zepce and Fojnica. In this

    15 convoy most of us were Croats, but there were also two

    16 Muslims with us, Fuad Curic and Zecevic, I think his

    17 name was Osman. We agreed to do this and they were

    18 afraid. We agreed to stick together and with the help

    19 of God we would finally reach our destination. At 1.00

    20 in the afternoon we went from Citluk to Posusje and

    21 then to Duvno, from Duvno over the mountain of Rama.

    22 It is a very difficult road. In the evening we arrived

    23 in Prozor and we spent the night in front of the

    24 Franciscan monastery in Rama near Prozor. In the

    25 morning we went to Gornji Vakuf where the cease-fire

  62. 1 was still on, and the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

    2 and the army of the Croatian Defence Council were both

    3 there in town.

    4 The two of us, my driver and I, and Faud

    5 Curic and Zecevic, I think his name as Osman, went to

    6 see the local commander of the army of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We talked to him. We said that we

    8 wanted to go home. We asked him to help us, and he

    9 made it possible for us to go home.

    10 We left Gornji Vakuf, we took the road that

    11 leads to Novi Travnik by Sebicic (phoen). We arrived

    12 at Sebicic, and then part of this road goes to Fojnica

    13 near the Prokosko Lake, and the other road leads to

    14 Novi Travnik via Vitez. We went via the lake.

    15 When we got to the top of Laska Ravan, behind

    16 the trees there were members of the army of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina with their guns aiming at us. And

    18 they mistreated us, they cursed at us.

    19 Faud Curic and Zecevic went to Fojnica. They

    20 were gone for two hours. Then I had to go too.

    21 When I got down there by Prokos, a young man

    22 pointed his gun at me and put it underneath my neck.

    23 He was drunk, and he said, "I'll kill you, because you

    24 are from Kiseljak." And then another fellow came by

    25 and told this first one not to touch me.

  63. 1 We continue our trip. In the evening we

    2 arrived in Kiseljak at 10.00.

    3 Q. What date was this?

    4 A. I arrived on the 7th.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, we have to

    6 interrupt now and we will resume at 2.45.

    7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

    8 --- On resuming at 2.55 p.m.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing will now resume.

    10 Have the accused brought in, please.

    11 (The accused entered court)

    12 JUDGE JORDA: As soon as the witness comes

    13 in, let's have Father Ivan brought in.

    14 (The witness entered court)

    15 JUDGE JORDA: If you agree, we can now

    16 resume. Mr. Nobilo, take up at the point we left off.

    17 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    18 Q. Mr. Pervan, we talked about your return to

    19 Kiseljak after the April conflict. That was what we

    20 were talking about before the lunch break. Could you

    21 tell us what date you entered the Kiseljak

    22 municipality?

    23 A. I entered the Kiseljak municipality on the

    24 7th of May, in the evening hours.

    25 Q. The 7th of May, 1993?

  64. 1 A. Yes, 1993.

    2 Q. Tell us, where can you enter the municipality

    3 of Kiseljak, at what place?

    4 A. I entered the Kiseljak municipality at

    5 Plocari, which means that I took the road leading from

    6 Fojnica to Kiseljak. I went that route -- on that

    7 route.

    8 Q. Was there any danger on the way or on the

    9 road entering Kiseljak?

    10 A. From Fojnica to the entrance to the Kiseljak

    11 municipality there were no incidents, but when we came

    12 to the village of Luge (phoen), which where the road

    13 passes through, we had to stop, and then you have to

    14 move right onto a road which isn't an asphalt road,

    15 which is an earth -- dirt road, a village road, because

    16 we couldn't go up to the Fojnica cross-roads going from

    17 Kiseljak to Busovaca, because any movement of men or

    18 anything else, and it was night, and we couldn't move

    19 without lighting, and there was shooting from

    20 Gomionica, strong firing, I think from machine-guns

    21 from the direction of Gomionica.

    22 Q. And who was at Gomionica in that direction?

    23 A. There was the BH army.

    24 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, please, after

    25 returning to Kiseljak, after the conflict at Trajvan

  65. 1 (phoen), was there any possibility whatsoever of coming

    2 to Busovaca and Vitez, that pocket, the Busovaca-Vitez

    3 pocket? Was there a secret road or route that you

    4 could reach this area?

    5 A. No. There was no route from Kiseljak to

    6 Busovaca. Nothing of that kind existed, public or

    7 covert, secret. If there was a road, it could only be

    8 across Fojnica to the Laska plain, but when we got

    9 there the BH army was there, as I said, and the road

    10 from Kislejak to Busovaca was cut off from Bilalovac,

    11 that is to say from the church in Brestovska, 100

    12 metres away from the church to the lower valley in the

    13 municipality of Busovaca.

    14 I think this is very simple to explain, that

    15 is to say, how the fighting took place between the HVO

    16 and the BH army. Every side along its enclave, along

    17 the municipality had dug trenches --

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Could we shorten this a bit,

    19 unless it's very, very important for you, Mr. Nobilo,

    20 because, otherwise, we're going to need a lot of time.

    21 Excuse me for interrupting here. Of course, you're the

    22 one who can see where you're trying to go in terms of

    23 your strategy, I'm not trying to force you to do

    24 anything, but we're going through a great many details

    25 here.

  66. 1 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we shall be

    2 concluding in 45 minutes' time, but the impossibility

    3 of communication between Kislejak and Busovaca, I

    4 think, is an important point. But we're not going to

    5 use too much of your time on that point.

    6 Q. Let's leave, for the moment, whether they

    7 were asphalt or dirt roads. Could you reach Busovaca

    8 to Kiseljak through the fields, or valleys or whatever?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Why not?

    11 A. Because everything was blocked with two

    12 armies on both sides. The roads were blocked and the

    13 whole Kiseljak enclave was surrounded by front-lines on

    14 both sides, both the BH army and the HVO.

    15 Q. Yes.

    16 A. The HVO line and then along this line you had

    17 the BH army.

    18 Q. Can we take an example, and we're going to

    19 illustrate, by means of that example, that the two

    20 Croatian pockets, Kiseljak and Busovaca, operated in

    21 different manners.

    22 Tell us the price of cigarettes or food, for

    23 example, in Kiseljak and what were the prices in

    24 Busovaca?

    25 A. The prices were drastically different. I

  67. 1 forgot to take a packet of my own cigarettes, but the

    2 price of one packet of cigarettes with 20 cigarettes in

    3 Kiseljak was one Deutschmark, In Busovaca that price

    4 was 100 Deutschmarks. One litre of oil in Kiseljak

    5 was one and a half to two Deutschmarks in Busovaca, 70

    6 Deutschmarks for a friend, 100 for others, and if you

    7 knew nobody, it was 200 Deutschmarks. And I believe

    8 that you would be able to find people, had they been

    9 able to go to Busovaca, they would have invested their

    10 10,000 marks in cigarettes, place them in cigarettes,

    11 and earn 1 million marks' profit. But, of course,

    12 there was no profit of that kind and people of that

    13 kind engaging in anything of that kind. Nobody thought

    14 of this because we knew -- everybody knew it was

    15 impossible.

    16 Q. Tell me, in Kiseljak, was there -- were there

    17 enough weapons and grenades, and what do you know about

    18 the situation in Vitez and Busovaca?

    19 A. Kiseljak, as far as I remember, and as far as

    20 I heard from the soldiers, had enough ammunition,

    21 rifles and mortars, grenades, but later on I heard that

    22 in Busovaca there was a shortage of all that.

    23 Q. Did you have any explosives?

    24 A. No, we did not have explosives. We had to

    25 purchase explosives either in Herzegovina or from the

  68. 1 Serbs.

    2 Q. Tell me, with the friars in Busovaca, how did

    3 you communicate with them personally, you yourself?

    4 A. Well, they sent me, via UNPROFOR, letters and

    5 money, and would I answer to their letters, and I would

    6 send up to 4 kilograms of coffee and cigarettes via

    7 UNPROFOR to them.

    8 Q. Tell me, the radio ham station, did you know

    9 how to use it?

    10 A. Yes, but other people would tune in for me,

    11 tune it in for me.

    12 Q. So did you have frank talks where everybody

    13 could take part?

    14 A. Yes. We were linked with all radio hams,

    15 amateurs, both in Busovaca, with Belgrade, Zagreb and

    16 throughout Europe, anywhere that the radio station

    17 could be heard.

    18 Q. Now, tell me, do you recall any coded

    19 messages of the BH army and the man who deciphered

    20 those codes? Can you explain to us how this happened?

    21 A. Yes, do I remember. Very often I went to the

    22 room where the public radio ham station, amateur radio

    23 station, was working. Mijo Raso, my friend, was there,

    24 Ivica Marjanovic, they were all my friends, and Miss

    25 Prgomet. I would have coffee with them, because it was

  69. 1 located in the centre of town. They played cards,

    2 chess, I listened to messages. There would be 2CC38,

    3 that would be the kind of code, and this would be taken

    4 to Mijo Raso, and this was deciphered very easily.

    5 They were able to decipher what the Muslim soldiers and

    6 others -- the messages they sent out.

    7 Q. You said that Tihomir Blaskic attended the

    8 funeral of Mato Lucic sometime after the 10th of May,

    9 because he was killed on the 10th of May. Tell us how

    10 he came to the funeral.

    11 A. He was escorted by UNPROFOR in an Armoured

    12 Personnel Carrier.

    13 Q. Was he brought to the cemetery?

    14 A. No. He came to the house where Mato's

    15 parents lived, and he used the UNPROFOR APC vehicle,

    16 and then he went to Busovaca or Vitez. He went via --

    17 back via Bilalovac.

    18 Q. After the funeral of Mato Lucic, that is to

    19 say, sometime after the 10th of May, 1993 up to the end

    20 of the war in 1994, did you ever see or hear of the

    21 fact that Tihomir Blaskic had come to Kiseljak after

    22 Mato Lucic's funeral when he was in Kiseljak the last

    23 time?

    24 A. Mr. Blaskic never, until the cease-fire in

    25 1994, came to Kiseljak. I did not see him nor did I

  70. 1 ever hear of him coming.

    2 Q. You said the funeral rites for Colonel

    3 Blaskic's father. That was sometime after Mato Lucic's

    4 funeral, in the second part of 1993 that is.

    5 Tell us, did Blaskic come on that occasion or

    6 would he have come had he been able to?

    7 A. Mr. Blaskic was not there. I personally

    8 buried his father at the Kiseljak cemetery. He did not

    9 come on that occasion. Had he been able to, he would

    10 have come. I personally believe, I don't want to say

    11 anything against Mr. Blaskic, but I think he loved his

    12 father more than he loved his mother.

    13 Q. What about the circumstances of the funeral?

    14 Was there any shooting?

    15 A. Yes. We always had problems with funerals at

    16 the Kiseljak cemetery, because on the opposite side

    17 from Visoko, which is one and a half kilometres as the

    18 crow flies, the cemetery was shelled. That is to say,

    19 the grenades fell on the cemetery.

    20 Q. Could you now describe to the Court the

    21 following: In the course of 1992 you met Colonel

    22 Blaskic, and at the beginning of 1993 you met him

    23 again. Can you describe him as a man and a soldier?

    24 What impression did he leave?

    25 A. I met mister -- Colonel Blaskic in the spring

  71. 1 of 1992. I knew that he was appointed as commander of

    2 the barracks. We met in the street. He lived in the

    3 town itself. We would go and have a drink together,

    4 because in -- the war was not ongoing in Kiseljak yet.

    5 He went to church, he attended mass and other religious

    6 rites, and the impression he left on me, and everybody

    7 else, was that he was a quiet man, a serious man, a

    8 calm man, an honest man, somebody always who would

    9 adhere to his principles. He did not make a lot of

    10 noise. He was always calm in presenting his

    11 arguments. I think that he was -- did he not like

    12 aggression, and I think psychologically and physically

    13 he is what I would say a pure man, call a pure man.

    14 Q. At that time in Bosnia, there were

    15 international -- tense international relations.

    16 There was tension and antagonisms around the different

    17 nations and religions. Can you assess what his

    18 attitude was towards members of ethnic groups? Was he

    19 an extremist? Was he an extreme nationalist?

    20 A. At the time when Mr. Blaskic was in Kiseljak,

    21 there were no conflicts between the Muslim and Croat

    22 people, and, thereby, the situation was quite

    23 different. There was conflict between the army of the

    24 Republika Srpska, the Serbs, and the others. I never

    25 heard Mr. Blaskic say anything bad about any

  72. 1 nationality, or that he would give bad names to other

    2 members -- members of other ethnic groups. I never

    3 heard him doing anything of that kind.

    4 Q. When he came from Kiseljak, he came from

    5 Austria where he had fled to from the JNA, and where

    6 the parents of his wife had lived for many years and

    7 were well-off. Did he explain to you the motives for

    8 which from a quiet country like Austria and civilian

    9 life, in the spring of 1992 he went to the Kiseljak

    10 area? What were his motives for doing so and what were

    11 his intentions?

    12 A. We discussed that subject. Mr. Blaskic

    13 graduated from the officer school of the Yugoslav

    14 People's Army, he was a commander himself in one of the

    15 barracks, and he was able to see what was being

    16 prepared and what was going on. He was able to see

    17 quite clearly that the majority of the cases, 90 per

    18 cent of the cases in the army, in the Yugoslav People's

    19 army before the war, were that the officers were

    20 Serbs. He saw what had happened to Slovenia and

    21 Croatia, and he saw what was going to happen to

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And so for patriotic reasons he

    23 came back, because he knew the Croatian people and the

    24 Muslim people do not have enough well-trained, educated

    25 and equipped officers.

  73. 1 He came back to the region where he used to

    2 live, his parents and his sister lived there, his

    3 brother who was ill. So he came back from patriotic

    4 reasons, patriotic motives, not to get his own back on

    5 anybody. He came to help Kiseljak remain where it was

    6 and to have Bosnia-Herzegovina remain as it always was.

    7 Q. And who at that time was the enemy? Who

    8 attacked Bosnia-Herzegovina when he came back?

    9 A. When Mr. Blaskic came to Kiseljak,

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina was being attacked by the army of

    11 the Republika Srpska, by the Serbs. It was the Serbs

    12 against the Croats and Muslims.

    13 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I have talked

    14 to -- the indictment. I would like to move to a

    15 private session and I will explain the reasons for

    16 that.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: All right. The Judges agree.

    18 Perhaps there was an error here on the transcript.

    19 Yes, it will be a private session.

    20 (Private session)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  74. 1












    13 Pages 14443 to 14457 redacted - in private session













  1. 1 (redacted)

    1. (redacted)
    2. (Open session)

    4 MR. CAYLEY: In respect of the exhibits, I

    5 have no objections, apart from Exhibit 423, which is

    6 the very large document on lists of beneficiaries of

    7 Caritas. And the only reason I have a reservation is I

    8 would like to read it, and it must be, well, I think

    9 it's at least 100 pages long.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: What objection do you have? Of

    11 course, nobody is going to prevent you from reading

    12 this voluminous document. You would simply prefer to

    13 set a condition for accepting the document on having

    14 read it.

    15 MR. CAYLEY: I would like to read it, Mr.

    16 President, before accepting it without objection; I

    17 suspect there will not be any objection, but I feel

    18 foolish accepting a document which I haven't read. The

    19 other documents I have no problem with.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that's to your credit,

    21 Mr. Cayley, to your credit. All right, you will read

    22 the document, and then in the coming days we ask that

    23 you not forget to remind us of that, in case my memory

    24 fails me.

    25 MR. CAYLEY: I will remind you, Mr.

  2. 1 President.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: I won't read it today, I'll

    3 read it later on, at the time of our deliberations; so

    4 if you don't mind, at the right time you will indicate

    5 it to us.

    6 Are we now back in a public session? Yes, we

    7 are in a public session. All right, the screens have

    8 come back up.

    9 Mr. Cayley, you will be conducting the

    10 cross-examination.

    11 Father Pervan, you are going to be asked

    12 questions by the Prosecution as part of the

    13 cross-examination. If you agree, Father, when you hear

    14 the questions, of course, it's normal for you to turn

    15 to the Prosecutor, but when you answer, please turn to

    16 the Judges. All right?

    17 Very well. Mr. Cayley.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you.

    19 Cross-examined by Mr. Cayley:

    20 Q. Good afternoon, Father, my name is Cayley,

    21 these are my colleagues, Mr. Harmon and Mr. Kehoe. I

    22 will address you as Mr. Pervan during your

    23 cross-examination, I think it makes the transcript

    24 clearer, and for the reasons alluded to by the

    25 President yesterday.

  3. 1 First of all, I would like to talk to you

    2 about your role in the charitable organisation,

    3 Caritas.

    4 Now, you stated that it was in fact your

    5 colleagues who regularly entered Rotilj with aid from

    6 Caritas and that you were an infrequent visitor; is

    7 that correct, to Rotilj?

    8 A. I went to Rotilj not all that frequently, but

    9 at least once every seven or ten days, and we would

    10 hand out the food when there was -- this was perhaps

    11 once a month, sometimes more often.

    12 Q. How regularly did your colleagues visit the

    13 village of Rotilj, the other Caritas workers?

    14 A. They would go according to need, when needed,

    15 and I went privately to have a cup of coffee, and at

    16 all other times when I was invited by them to come and

    17 visit them.

    18 Q. After the conflict on the 18th of April,

    19 1993, when did you first visit Rotilj?

    20 A. I visited Rotilj when Daniel Furman asked me

    21 to bring food from UNPROFOR to the village.

    22 Q. Can you give me a date, or an approximate

    23 date of that visit?

    24 A. I can't give you a date now, because I was so

    25 excited at the time and they were such difficult times

  4. 1 that I don't remember exactly, but I do know that it

    2 was during the first cease-fire or lull before the

    3 storm.

    4 Q. So, that would be in April, would it, Father,

    5 April of 1993?

    6 A. No, I don't think so, because I came home on

    7 the 7th of May.

    8 Q. So, your first visit to Rotilj was in May, or

    9 subsequent to the 7th of May?

    10 A. After the 7th of May, yes.

    11 Q. And your testimony is that you visited on a

    12 regular basis after that, every seven to ten days.

    13 A. Yes, that's what I said. And let me add that

    14 after the roadblock I went every other day, I went to

    15 visit the doctor, the lady doctor, and I discussed the

    16 problems she had. So, I would pass the roadblock

    17 almost every day, the ramp, as I say, or roadblock.

    18 Q. So now your testimony is that you visited

    19 Rotilj after the 7th of May every other day?

    20 A. Yes, but I did not talk to the Muslim

    21 population, I just passed the roadblock at the

    22 beginning; and I talked to them every seven or ten

    23 days, and every time that they would come to the office

    24 in the parish, and whenever I was invited to go there.

    25 Q. Did you require an HVO escort to go into the

  5. 1 village of Rotilj?

    2 A. Never.

    3 Q. Now, you've provided to the Court very long

    4 lists of Caritas beneficiaries which identify the name

    5 of the individual and the place in which that

    6 beneficiary was located.

    7 Do you have any records at all indicating how

    8 much aid was supplied to Rotilj and the other Muslim

    9 villages during 1993?

    10 A. The list, Caritas list was jointly kept, the

    11 records were jointly kept, because according to our

    12 statute and according to my own vocation, my calling,

    13 we were not allowed to list people by their ethnic

    14 group. So, sometimes we would do it in alphabetical

    15 order, and sometimes according to the places, that is

    16 to say, the villages they belonged to.

    17 I think that in some documents it is stated

    18 that my head calculated that each member of Rotilj was

    19 given 95 kilograms of food from August '93 to

    20 March '94.

    21 Furthermore, in the documents, there was a

    22 column when the food was issued, and under the column,

    23 this was food that I took myself to Rotilj, which was

    24 not always recorded.

    25 Q. Do you have any of those documents with you

  6. 1 now indicating how much aid was delivered to the

    2 villages in Rotilj, the quantities?

    3 A. What I just said, I think that I gave the

    4 Defence this document, these documents. We would have

    5 to look through them.

    6 Q. Now, the aid that was delivered to Rotilj,

    7 how often was there a delivery of humanitarian aid to

    8 the village of Rotilj?

    9 A. Humanitarian aid to Rotilj was delivered as I

    10 said, every time when food was handed out to

    11 everybody. So Rotilj was never an exception when it

    12 came to distributing food.

    13 There was one case when we gave aid only to

    14 the refugees, and only to the Muslims in Rotilj, when

    15 the domestic poor were excluded from this handout of

    16 food.

    17 But whenever aid and relief was given out to

    18 the needy, it was always handed out in the village of

    19 Rotilj, to everybody, one and all.

    20 Q. Could you say with some specificity, was it

    21 delivered on a monthly basis, or a six-week basis, on

    22 an eight-week basis, to the village of Rotilj, aid from

    23 Caritas?

    24 A. I have a list here of when the food was

    25 distributed. In 1993, let us see, it was from the 18th

  7. 1 of January to the 22nd of January. In February it was

    2 from the 22nd to the 26th. In March it was from the

    3 30th to the 6th of April. In May it was from the 24th

    4 to the 31st of May. In June it was from the 7th to the

    5 17th. There was no delivery in August. In September

    6 it was from the 6th to the 12th of September. In

    7 October there were no deliveries, on the 11th to the

    8 19th of October. And on the 25th of November to the

    9 3rd of December. There was nothing again until

    10 February, 1994.

    11 So we distributed food when we had it. We

    12 were not able to say when we would be distributing the

    13 food, it depended on the convoy. I would go and get

    14 the food and sometimes I would spend 17 days en route

    15 in bringing back the food needed.

    16 Q. So with, I think, an omission in October,

    17 food was delivered on a monthly basis?

    18 A. No, we should look at the details for each

    19 month. If you ask me which particular month you have

    20 in mind I will tell you whether food was distributed or

    21 not. Ask me a month.

    22 Q. Well, in the break I think it is best if

    23 Mr. Nobilo gives me a copy a document, then I can look

    24 and we can discuss it, because at the moment we're

    25 discussing a document that I can't see.

  8. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Do you agree with that,

    2 Mr. Nobilo?

    3 MR. NOBILO: Yes, we wanted to speed up

    4 proceedings. We have ten kilos of documents, but we

    5 haven't brought everything with us now.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: I knew that in the end it would

    7 be my fault, Mr. Nobilo. We'll have to stop. This is

    8 as long as we have to go, we have to stop today at five

    9 o'clock. Would you like us to take a break right now,

    10 Mr. Cayley, so we can look at the document? Otherwise

    11 I suggest we take a break in five or six minutes.

    12 I'm not making any more decisions today, you

    13 make the decision.

    14 MR. CAYLEY: Five or six minutes is fine, Mr.

    15 President.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Then take the five or six

    17 minutes.

    18 MR. CAYLEY:

    19 Q. You were aware there were other agencies that

    20 were delivering humanitarian aid to Rotilj, indeed to

    21 many parts of Bosnia?

    22 A. Yes, I am aware of that. They did it apart

    23 from the parish Caritas organisation, and I acquiesced

    24 to this, I knew it.

    25 Q. And I think one of those organisations was

  9. 1 UNHCR?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And I think, also present in the village of

    4 Rotilj, assessing the humanitarian needs of the

    5 villages, were UNPROFOR officers and ECMM officials; do

    6 you recall that?

    7 A. I think there were the UNPROFOR doctors and

    8 many others, and nobody prevented them from helping

    9 people, nor could anybody, or did anybody want to

    10 prevent this.

    11 Q. Do you recall the presence of ECMM officials

    12 in the village of Rotilj, the European Community

    13 Monitoring Mission?

    14 A. I wasn't present when they were there, but I

    15 know that they were in Kiseljak all the time.

    16 Q. And I think you may have had conversations

    17 with them at some stage during 1993?

    18 A. If I talked to the UNPROFOR men and the

    19 monitors and everybody else coming from outside, and I

    20 did talk to them, then all those talks took place in my

    21 house, in my guest room.

    22 Q. Now, you said in your evidence in chief that

    23 there was also the Muslim aid foundation, Merhamet; do

    24 you recall that?

    25 A. Yes, I remember it well.

  10. 1 Q. And you stated that they were also providing

    2 humanitarian aid in Kiseljak; do you recall that?

    3 A. Yes, in the course of 1992 until they began

    4 to argue amongst themselves. And as long as they had

    5 donations from outside, we worked together, and I was

    6 very -- and I know Menso Melezovic to this day, and we

    7 see each other, he now lives in Fojnica and was the

    8 head of the Merhamet, and he came to my house only a

    9 few days ago for coffee and a drink.

    10 Q. When did Merhamet cease to function in

    11 Kiseljak?

    12 A. I think that it could have been at the end of

    13 1992, sometime thereabouts, and it ceased functioning

    14 in January when the conflicts broke out between the BH

    15 army and the HVO in Klokoti, Kacuni, Bilalovac, those

    16 places.

    17 Q. Now, the Judges in this Court have heard from

    18 another witness that the Merhamet warehouse in Kiseljak

    19 was plundered and burned down; do you know of that

    20 event?

    21 A. I was in Kiseljak, and that is true.

    22 Q. And that was done by the HVO in Kiseljak;

    23 wasn't it?

    24 A. That was done by people living in Kiseljak,

    25 and they are Croats. I did not see when this actually

  11. 1 happened, I did not see them face-to-face. Probably

    2 they belonged to the HVO, but they were individuals,

    3 they were a group of people, and they did this with the

    4 Merhamet warehouse, which is a bad thing.

    5 MR. CAYLEY: We can stop at this point, Mr.

    6 President, if you wish, for a break.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume at a quarter

    8 after 4.00 and work until 5.00.

    9 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 3.20 p.m.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: We'll now resume have the

    12 accused brought in, please.

    13 (The accused entered court)

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar as far as the

    15 schedule goes, we're very confused. I see that the

    16 clock in the courtroom is fast and the ones in the

    17 other offices are slow, which makes for all other kinds

    18 of problems.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's true. I have no

    20 further comment.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: You are responsible for

    22 everything, everything. You have to be responsible for

    23 all the clocks, but now we'll give the floor back to

    24 Mr. Cayley.

    25 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

  12. 1 Q. Mr. Pervan, before the break we were

    2 discussing the destruction of the warehouse of the

    3 Muslim aid foundation Merhamet. Do you recall that

    4 testimony?

    5 A. Yes, I do. I said that the warehouse was

    6 destroyed, set fire to and destroyed.

    7 Q. Do you recall when that occurred in 1993?

    8 A. I think it occurred at the beginning of the

    9 conflict of the BH army and the Croatian Defence

    10 Council.

    11 Q. So would that be January of 1993 or April of

    12 1993?

    13 A. After April 1993.

    14 Q. Thank you. Now, when that warehouse was

    15 destroyed, that must have had quite an impact on the

    16 Muslim population in Kiseljak?

    17 A. Yes, of course it did.

    18 Q. People were very frightened. That's right;

    19 isn't it?

    20 A. Yes, I think they were.

    21 Q. Now, you say that individual members of the

    22 HVO were responsible for destroying that warehouse.

    23 Are you aware as to whether or not there was ever any

    24 sort of police investigation into that occurrence?

    25 A. I'm not aware of that, no.

  13. 1 Q. Are you aware of anybody being charged with

    2 destroying the warehouse, anybody from the Kiseljak

    3 municipality?

    4 A. I don't know.

    5 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned earlier that

    6 you were engaged in running convoys through Bosnia from

    7 Croatia to Kiseljak. Do you recall that?

    8 A. Yes, I spoke about that.

    9 Q. How many of those convoys in 1993 did you

    10 personally supervise from Croatia to Bosnia?

    11 A. I think at least half of them, but I would

    12 have to look at the food distribution and delivery

    13 records and then I would know the number of convoys,

    14 according to how -- the number of times food was

    15 distributed. But from 1992, we counted, up to the end

    16 of the war, that 211 times we took food to Kiseljak.

    17 Two hundred and eleven times, especially at times when

    18 there was no conflicts between the BH army and the

    19 HVO.

    20 Q. So you would have personally been engaged in

    21 roughly a hundred of those convoys, moving food from

    22 Croatia to Kiseljak?

    23 A. About that much, yes.

    24 Q. And how long were you away from Kiseljak

    25 during each of these convoy movements? I assume you

  14. 1 went from Kiseljak to Croatia, and then from Croatia

    2 back to Kiseljak. How long did each convoy take in

    3 time?

    4 A. Before the conflicts between the BH army and

    5 the HVO, those convoys -- we would leave in the

    6 morning, early in the morning, and return in the

    7 evening. Most of my journeys were between that time.

    8 From August 1993, up until the end of the

    9 conflict, I went much less because we had fewer

    10 convoys. So during that time it could have been --

    11 there could have been 15 convoys during the conflict,

    12 and I was in 7 of them, at least 7 of them.

    13 The journey was a long one, but later on we

    14 would shorten the road and use the route by Stolac, so

    15 three days one way. Except the case that I mentioned

    16 when the tax had not been paid to the Serbian

    17 government and the Serbian army, and on that occasion

    18 we stayed 18 days, and that was in August. But

    19 otherwise, a maximum of three days. The journey took a

    20 maximum of three days.

    21 Q. So between April of 1993 and January of 1994,

    22 how many convoys do you estimate that you supervised

    23 from Croatia to Bosnia?

    24 A. As I said, I think that from August up until

    25 April 1994, there could have been a maximum of 15 to

  15. 1 17, and that I supervised half. So at least eight

    2 convoys myself.

    3 Q. And on average, each of those convoys took

    4 three or four days, apart from the one where you were

    5 imprisoned for a period, I think, and that took 18

    6 days?

    7 A. Yes, 17 days. Ten days and 11 nights, and I

    8 spent 26 hours at the prison in Bileca. And I must say

    9 to the Court and to you that I was not included in the

    10 commercial convoy. So we're only talking about

    11 humanitarian convoys, which functioned over a longer

    12 period of time, once a month or once every 35 days,

    13 whereas commercial convoys would go once a week or

    14 twice a week. So I supervised humanitarian convoys

    15 alone.

    16 Q. Now, Father, are you aware, moving on to

    17 another subject, are you aware that in July of 1993 the

    18 villages of Rotilj reported to the European Community

    19 Monitoring Mission that they were almost out of food?

    20 Are you aware of that?

    21 A. Their report to the Monitoring Mission is

    22 something that I'm not aware of, but in July 1993, we

    23 did not deliver food to anybody. We had some clothing

    24 which we gave out to the refugees who came to Kiseljak,

    25 and at the beginning of July, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th and

  16. 1 5th, refugees from Fojnica arrived, and I know I could

    2 not give food out to them either. So we didn't give

    3 out food to anyone in the course of that month because

    4 we had no food.

    5 Q. Do you recall personally meeting with

    6 representatives of ECMM in August of 1993, where you

    7 stated to them that the HVO did not approve of delivery

    8 of Caritas aid to Rotilj?

    9 A. I do not recall that day and that particular

    10 date, but I don't think that that is what I said.

    11 Perhaps that was a mistranslation. I could have said,

    12 and that was the truth, that certain individuals who

    13 wore uniforms, whose sons had died, or brothers had

    14 died or had been expelled, that there was resistance on

    15 their part as to why I was sending food to the village

    16 of Rotilj. I heard criticisms of that kind, but I

    17 continued doing what I thought best, and I continued

    18 sending food to Rotilj regardless of those criticisms

    19 which came from individuals. But never officially,

    20 either in written form or orally from the authorities,

    21 either military or civilian, were criticisms of that

    22 kind or reproaches of that kind made to me, but I know

    23 that some people were against giving out food. But we

    24 didn't bother about them. We didn't pay attention to

    25 that.

  17. 1 Q. Now, you stated earlier that, in fact, in

    2 July of 1993 you didn't supply any aid to Rotilj. In

    3 fact, you said you didn't supply aid to anybody, if I'm

    4 correct myself; is that correct? You stated that you

    5 didn't supply aid to anybody in July of 1993. Do you

    6 recall that?

    7 A. No, I did not bring convoys. That's what I

    8 had in mind when I said that. But we did give out the

    9 food that we had. What we had, they were the vestiges

    10 of the vestiges. I understood you incorrectly. I

    11 thought you were talking about convoys when I did go

    12 from Split to Kiseljak so I must understood you, I

    13 think.

    14 Q. So what was the availability of supplies in

    15 July 1993 to Caritas?

    16 A. Would you clarify your question, please?

    17 Q. Did you have supplies in Caritas to

    18 distribute to the Muslims in Rotilj in July of 1993?

    19 A. We did not have enough food to distribute,

    20 but we distributed what food we had. In that month we

    21 had mostly clothing and footwear, and nobody needed

    22 that because it was exceptionally hot weather at the

    23 time, but what we had we handed out.

    24 Q. If I can distribute an exhibit.

    25 Unfortunately, it's in English, Mr. Pervan, so you

  18. 1 won't be able to read it, but counsel will be able to

    2 follow on this exhibit. Mr. Usher.

    3 Now, this is a report of the European

    4 Community Monitoring Mission, and it's dated the 27th

    5 of August of 1993, and I will read to you a relevant

    6 paragraph.

    7 MR. HAYMAN: Counsel, could we have a

    8 moment?

    9 MR. CAYLEY: Of course.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: 540.

    11 MR. CAYLEY:

    12 Q. And I'll read to you paragraph 4, which is on

    13 page 2 of the document. This is a report by Philippe

    14 Sidos and Oscar Meijboom. If it could be placed on the

    15 ELMO so the interpreters can follow.

    16 "We visited Rotilj where the situation is

    17 unchanged. We met the local director of Caritas in

    18 Kiseljak, who said that the main problem is the cut of

    19 supplies from Split since March. They have the list of

    20 Muslims in the Kiseljak area and deliver help for

    21 them. They just received an official authorisation

    22 from the mayor, 14 August, '93, for that, because it is

    23 bad." -- I assume he meant considered bad by some

    24 people.

    25 Now, Mr. Pervan, is the local director who is

  19. 1 referred to in that report, is that you or is that

    2 somebody else in Kiseljak?

    3 A. The director is mentioned of Caritas of the

    4 collection centre of Kiseljak, and I said before that

    5 Kiseljak was the collection centre for bringing in food

    6 and from thence it was handed out. The director was

    7 Bozo Boric, he is also a clergyman, but it is not me.

    8 He is the director of that collection centre.

    9 Q. Now, if as Mr. Boric is saying, the mayor of

    10 Kiseljak only gave authorisation on the 14th of August,

    11 1993 for the delivery of aid, Caritas aid, how were you

    12 able to deliver prior to that date?

    13 A. Bozo Boric is a man who worked in Kiseljak,

    14 and he is a man -- he is an honest man who very often

    15 criticised the authorities for the difficulties that

    16 the Muslims were having to undergo. And he wanted to

    17 make this official, and he kept writing and saying, "I

    18 went to Rotilj." I said that at the beginning.

    19 And when UNPROFOR said they could not go

    20 because they said it was difficult to go during the

    21 night, I did not seek authorisation for that. And that

    22 is not the first time that I did not ask authorisation

    23 from the municipality, because the -- what I thought

    24 was that the church and the State are separate

    25 institutions, and that the church has the right to do

  20. 1 what it wants.

    2 Bozo wanted to legalise all this, and I know

    3 he invested a great deal of time and effort to help

    4 individual Muslims. I know of one particular family,

    5 the family of Aga Ahmic, for example.

    6 Q. Now, the mayor that is being referred to here

    7 is Josip Boro; is it not?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And he's a man you know very well; is that

    10 correct?

    11 A. Yes, I know him.

    12 Q. Now, I'll repeat the question again but ask

    13 you a preliminary question. Was it possible to take

    14 Caritas aid into Rotilj without the authorisation of

    15 Josip Boro?

    16 A. I did not ask Josip Boro for matters of that

    17 kind of.

    18 Q. Why did Father Bozo ask him for authorisation

    19 to take aid into Rotilj on the 14th of August, 1993?

    20 A. I do not know any other motive apart from the

    21 fact that Bozo was a little unhappy, unhappily disposed

    22 towards Josip Boro, not particularly Ivica Rajic, he

    23 was not disposed to him. And there were problems at

    24 the time with storing the goods that had been

    25 delivered, and Bozo Boric wanted to have that in

  21. 1 writing.

    2 Q. Josip Boro was the president of the HVO in

    3 Kiseljak; wasn't he?

    4 A. Josip Boro was the President of the HVO in

    5 Kiseljak, but I think that no one asked him about

    6 anything. That's what I said when Mr. Nobilo had

    7 questioned me at the very end of his questioning. I

    8 explained that.

    9 Q. So what you're saying is that this official

    10 authorisation by Josip Boro to take aid into Rotilj was

    11 meaningless?

    12 A. I think that that authorisation was received

    13 at a meeting of the civilian and military authorities,

    14 and then Josip Boro signed it. That is my opinion. At

    15 that time not a single deal of significance was reached

    16 without this kind of a meeting between Josip Boro as

    17 the head of the municipality, Ivica Rajic as head of

    18 the military, and Vinko Antunovic. And I don't know

    19 who else was there because I never attended these

    20 meetings, but Josip Boro signed all these documents as

    21 head of the HVO because that was the set-up then.

    22 Q. So this authorisation would have been

    23 approved by the HVO military authorities; is that what

    24 you're saying to the Judges?

    25 A. I think that both the military and civilian

  22. 1 authorities had to authorise this together. That's

    2 what I think.

    3 Q. I will ask you one last time, Mr. Pervan.

    4 How was it possible to take aid into Rotilj, prior to

    5 the 14th of August, without authority from the HVO?

    6 A. I could do that because I did not ask. I did

    7 not ask for permission until the present day for

    8 humanitarian assistance and aid, who I would give

    9 something to. I did not allow any of the military or

    10 any of the municipality people to come to the warehouse

    11 of Caritas and to see what was there. Never, from the

    12 very beginning until the present day, did I allow the

    13 municipality, the military or the police to have

    14 insight into who things were distributed to, how much

    15 and when.

    16 Q. So why did Father Bozo request authorisation

    17 to take aid into Rotilj?

    18 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have been

    19 repeating the same question for a few times now.

    20 A. Legally speaking, Bozo Boric received

    21 authority for this, but it was wrong for him to ask for

    22 this permission, and it was wrong to then get authority

    23 for it, because the village of Rotilj did not belong to

    24 his scope of work, because he was head of the

    25 collection centre, and it was the municipal Caritas

  23. 1 that was supposed to handle this affair.

    2 I know Bozo. He's a man who likes to write,

    3 he's an honest man, but he did things in a different

    4 way. So that is my answer.

    5 Q. Father, you both worked for the same

    6 organisation in the same town.

    7 A. The same organisation and the same collection

    8 centre, but this was by accident that this collection

    9 centre was in Kiseljak. We worked, but Bozo Boric was

    10 only the director of that collection centre, he was not

    11 in charge of a single parish in Kiseljak. So he was

    12 not my superior in any way. And if this kind of

    13 permission was to be sought, I was the one who was

    14 supposed to seek it, and I did not think that I should

    15 seek permission from anyone.

    16 Q. Now, you mentioned a moment ago that Bozo

    17 Boric -- I'm sorry if I'm not saying his name

    18 correctly -- voiced a number of criticisms in respect

    19 to the HVO authorities in Kiseljak. What were those

    20 criticisms that he voiced?

    21 A. Such criticisms were certainly voiced in

    22 terms of what happened to Merhamet, what happened to

    23 other houses, what happened to people, and by virtue of

    24 my own vocation, I spoke about this from the alter too,

    25 and I told people about this for several weeks, that is

  24. 1 to say, every Sunday when they came to mass. I have

    2 documents to prove that, and I can show them to you

    3 over here. So this is criticism against destruction,

    4 against torching, against killing, against looting, and

    5 that is the kind of criticism that I voiced every

    6 Sunday and I can show it to you right now.

    7 Q. And this was in respect of torching Muslim

    8 homes, killing Muslim people; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes. Our criticism pertained to soldiers,

    10 individuals from the HVO who did evil in our parish,

    11 primarily towards Muslims but also towards other

    12 people, especially refugees belonging to the same

    13 ethnic group.

    14 Q. And what did the HVO authorities in Kiseljak

    15 do after these complaints were made about this

    16 conduct?

    17 A. I did not write to the HVO in Kiseljak. I

    18 voiced this criticism in public, from the alter, in

    19 front of people, because I thought, and I still think

    20 today, it is better to speak to those people who did

    21 that. And I know that Ivica Rajic and Bozo Boric, did

    22 not order this. I spoke to the parents, and brothers

    23 and sisters of those people who did this, that this was

    24 evil and they were not supposed to loot, that they were

    25 not supposed to kill, that they were not supposed to

  25. 1 hoard wealth in an unfair way. So that is why I told

    2 them.

    3 Q. Did Father Bozic make representations to the

    4 HVO in Kiseljak about the looting and the torching of

    5 Muslim homes?

    6 A. I'm not aware of that.

    7 Q. Now, are you aware that during 1993 Muslim

    8 women from Rotilj would come to the Caritas warehouse

    9 with permission to collect aid? Are you aware of

    10 that?

    11 A. I'm not aware of that.

    12 Q. You never heard any accounts of Muslim women

    13 being beaten in the town on their way to the Caritas

    14 warehouse? Did you ever hear about that, Mr. Pervan?

    15 A. First of all, I wish to say something else.

    16 When these women -- these Muslim women came to see me

    17 in my office at the church, they never asked for

    18 permission, nor did they ever show me anything of the

    19 kind. I did hear about this kind of excessive

    20 behaviour in Kiseljak. It is not only women that were

    21 attacked but Muslim men too.

    22 Q. We'll come to permission from the HVO later

    23 in your cross-examination, but can you tell the court

    24 what you heard about people being beaten in the town on

    25 their way to the Caritas warehouse?

  26. 1 A. I heard that there were such cases, that

    2 Muslims, men or women, as they were going to Kiseljak

    3 to buy something, that they had some bad things happen

    4 to them, that some were even beaten. And, Your

    5 Honours, I condemned this from the alter and I can show

    6 you here what I spoke of then.

    7 Q. If the next exhibit, Mr. Usher, could be

    8 distributed.

    9 While that's being distributed, Mr. Pervan --

    10 I'm sorry. Please --

    11 THE REGISTRAR: This is 541, 541A for the

    12 English version.

    13 MR. CAYLEY:

    14 Q. This was the HVO authorities who were your

    15 landlord in Kiseljak, they provided Caritas with

    16 accommodation. That's correct; isn't it?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Could you look at the document that's in

    19 front of you now, it's a document signed by Josip Boro,

    20 who was the president of the HVO, and confirm that this

    21 is the document which authorised Caritas to occupy

    22 certain premises in Kiseljak?

    23 A. As far as this document is concerned, I am

    24 aware of it, Your Honour. This is the document that

    25 Josip Boro issued to Fra Bozo Boric, and this is where

  27. 1 he worked, he and his secretary, and this document is

    2 not related to Caritas of the Kiseljak parish.

    3 Q. To which Caritas does this document relate?

    4 A. This relates to the collection centre in

    5 Kiseljak, number 1. That was the name of this

    6 collection centre. And Father Bozo Boric represented

    7 it on behalf of the Verbonsiska diocese. So this was a

    8 collection centre for all the parishes. The other one

    9 was in Split. And even today there is such a

    10 collection centre in Tuzla, in every diocese.

    11 And in this document a mistake was made by

    12 the President of the municipality. This is related

    13 only to this office where Father Bozo and his secretary

    14 were. Fra Bozo and his secretary have nothing to do

    15 whatsoever with the Caritas of the parish of Kiseljak.

    16 Q. So there were two Caritas in Kiseljak; is

    17 that what you're saying to the Judges?

    18 A. In the municipality of Kiseljak there were

    19 four Caritas. The Caritas of Ban Brdo, the Caritas

    20 of Kiseljak parish, of the Grominyak parish and of the

    21 Brestosko parish, all of them took goods from this

    22 joint collection centre. When Fra Bozo stopped going

    23 there, because he did not want to go through Serb

    24 territory, and I brought this food in then, and then he

    25 gave the supplies to the Caritas in all the

  28. 1 parishes.

    2 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is going too

    3 fast for the interpreters.

    4 A. And this is what we did through this

    5 collection centre. He was only director of this

    6 centre, but Bozo had nothing to do whatsoever with the

    7 distribution of the food. And as director of the

    8 collection centre, he could give food to individual

    9 persons or individual members.

    10 MR. CAYLEY:

    11 Q. Mr. Pervan, could you speak a little more

    12 slowly?

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Try to speak a little

    14 more slowly. You understood what my colleague wanted

    15 to say.

    16 MR. CAYLEY:

    17 Q. So I'm not fully clear on the position in

    18 respect of this document. Am I right in saying that

    19 these premises were a collection point where all of the

    20 various Caritas in Kiseljak would collect goods from

    21 this accommodation referred to in the document, and

    22 then it would be distributed on from there? Is that

    23 the position?

    24 A. No, that is not the way things are, and I

    25 shall try to explain once again. The premises that Fra

  29. 1 Bozo got is a room of 20 square metres, 4 by 5 metres.

    2 So it is an office really. And Fra Bozo got this on

    3 the 25th of February, 1993. That is to say, when there

    4 was a cease-fire that was still on, there was no

    5 fighting between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

    6 the Croatian Defence Council, Bozo wanted to bring

    7 these goods in. However, then the war broke out, and

    8 then Bozo would come to this room every now and then

    9 when we would bring in this food. He lived in the

    10 parish of Lepenica. That's where he was the priest.

    11 And this was a small room that served as an office.

    12 There were four chairs, a desk, and a typewriter and a

    13 very small coffee set.

    14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pervan. In your conversations

    15 with the local people in Rotilj, did they tell you that

    16 the livestock in the village had either been killed in

    17 April or had been subsequently stolen from them? Did

    18 they tell you that?

    19 A. Yes, I heard about that, yes.

    20 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you know about

    21 that?

    22 A. When the conflict broke out at Rotilj I was

    23 not in Kiseljak, I heard about these conflicts, I heard

    24 about the dead, and I heard that there were some houses

    25 that were on fire. I heard that some of them were

  30. 1 ablaze because the hay went on fire, and I heard that

    2 some of the livestock was killed. But I wasn't there.

    3 That's what I heard.

    4 When I came back to Kiseljak in May, in

    5 Rotilj the fighting, the conflict was over, and there

    6 was no fighting anymore.

    7 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'm now going to

    8 proceed to another area, so, it may be a good time to

    9 finish for today.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Let me remind you that as

    11 regards tomorrow, we will be sitting in the morning

    12 from 10.00 to 1.00, tomorrow afternoon it will start at

    13 2.30, and we will stop at about five minutes or ten

    14 minutes to 5.00, I don't know exactly, I have to get

    15 the details, because the Judges have been asked to come

    16 to a meeting in honour of a visit by a person to the

    17 International Criminal Tribunal. Let me remind you

    18 that Thursday there is no morning session, but we will

    19 begin at 3.00, and Friday we will proceed as usual,

    20 whereas, the following week there are no hearings at

    21 all. Court stands adjourned.

    22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    23 4.58 p.m., to be reconvened on

    24 Wednesday, the 4th day of November, 1998

    25 at 10.00 a.m.