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  1. 1 Thursday, 5th November, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 3.10 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Have the

    5 accused brought in, please, Mr. Registrar.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Good afternoon to the

    8 interpreters and to the steno-typists. Does everybody

    9 hear me? Good afternoon to Defence and Prosecution

    10 counsel. Good afternoon to the accused. I believe we

    11 can now continue. We're going to be here until 6.00.

    12 Let me turn to the Defence counsel for the

    13 introduction of the next witness. Will it be

    14 Mr. Nobilo?

    15 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. The

    16 next witness will have a pseudonym, "DJ." He is a

    17 farmer, an agricultural worker, without much

    18 education. He lived in his village throughout his

    19 life. At the start, I would like us to go into private

    20 session for a few moments for me to be able to explain

    21 where his house was and which village he lived in.

    22 He's going to describe his property, the land he owns,

    23 and his experience from the first conflict in January

    24 1993 when he left his house for a short time, for 24

    25 hours.

  2. 1 After that, he's going to describe what

    2 happened in April 1993 when the Bosnia-Herzegovina army

    3 came to his village, took away all the men, took them

    4 to a prison, how they behaved to the prisoners in the

    5 prison, the injuries he sustained, the conditions

    6 during his detention, trench digging, the exchange of

    7 prisoners, and his departure for Kiseljak. He's going

    8 to describe what happened to his house. He is going to

    9 describe how many Croats lived in the village before

    10 and how many live in it today and what happened to the

    11 neighbouring villages populated by the Croats.

    12 We're going to try and be as brief as

    13 possible and to be as effective and efficient as

    14 possible. Perhaps I'll ask a few more questions than I

    15 usually do, so I'll leave the witness less time for

    16 independent talk, and I'll be asking him more shorter

    17 questions, if you agree with that kind of work. We

    18 expect to finish in 45 minutes.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: First question, we will move to

    20 a private session. I don't have a summary. I can't

    21 find it. I have three of them. I'm not going to state

    22 the names. Was there a written summary,

    23 Mr. Dubuisson? I'm sorry. I think I'm the one who

    24 lost my copy.

    25 The second question or comment is sometimes I

  3. 1 would like to have a narrative of the testimony, but

    2 what I've often seen is that when there are questions

    3 and answers, which one sees in purely common law

    4 systems, time is wasted. Sometimes it's true that it

    5 can be better. I do recognise that. I have confidence

    6 in you. I will not hesitate to intervene if you go

    7 into too many details. Don't go into too many

    8 funnel-like questions, but go directly to what you're

    9 asking the witness to tell you. Ask your questions

    10 concisely; otherwise, we're going to waste time. If

    11 you have any way of saving time, I would agree with

    12 that method.

    13 We can now go into a closed session. I think

    14 it would be best to have a closed session now.

    15 Will a private session be enough, Mr.

    16 Nobilo? Is a private session enough or does it have to

    17 be a closed session?

    18 MR. NOBILO: I think that that will be

    19 sufficient. A private session will do very well.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: No objections from the

    21 Prosecution? Mr. Kehoe?

    22 MR. KEHOE: No objection.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much.

    24 (Private session)

    25 (redacted)

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  9. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (Open session)

    7 MR. NOBILO:

    8 Q. So we're not going to mention the place that

    9 you lived in anymore, and we're not going to mention

    10 names. We're just going to say "your village." That's

    11 the term we're going to use. Tell me now, on the 23rd

    12 of January, 1993, what happened in your village?

    13 A. Well, in my village, in the morning at 6.00,

    14 the Muslims set up a barricade by Andric's house, and I

    15 was seeing to the livestock there. There was shooting

    16 down below. There was shooting, and some women came

    17 and told us that we had to withdraw. My father said,

    18 "Well, where are we going to go? How can we

    19 withdraw?" And he said, "Yes, refugees are already

    20 coming in from Gusti Grab, and a lot of people are

    21 being killed there already. We will have to flee as

    22 well so that they don't kill us."

    23 In the evening, at 6.00 in the evening that

    24 day, it was 6.00, and we started across the hills.

    25 Q. In the morning at 6.00, you arrived at the

  10. 1 Kiseljak municipality?

    2 A. Brestovsko, down by the church. It is three

    3 and a half kilometres away.

    4 Q. When did you return to your house?

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted) My wife, and my daughter went up there, and

    7 my father remained in the house, but he refused to

    8 leave because he said, "I'm going to stay here," and

    9 they didn't do anything to him, but they stormed our

    10 house. They made a lot of mess but didn't do anything

    11 to him. (redacted). They took what they

    12 needed.

    13 Q. You mean they took goods from your shop?

    14 A. Yes. They took what they needed. We left.

    15 My father stayed down below. As I went to my

    16 daughter's that day, I returned the following day. I

    17 returned to my home the following day to see to the

    18 livestock. (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 went back. On the second night, I went away once

    21 again, and I came back to see to my livestock and the

    22 pigs, and then all three of us returned.

    23 Q. So nothing happened to anybody, nothing

    24 happened to the house? Just the goods from the shop

    25 were taken; is that right?

  11. 1 A. (No audible answer)

    2 Q. We're now going to concentrate on April 1993

    3 when it was Easter. Do you remember?

    4 A. Yes, I remember.

    5 Q. Could you explain to us, in April 1993,

    6 around about Easter, whether, in your village, the HVO

    7 existed? Were there any HVO units?

    8 A. No, there weren't. Of course not.

    9 Q. When they were there, who was there?

    10 A. The Muslim army was there. Yes, the army was

    11 there.

    12 Q. What happened during Easter?

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 Q. When the women left for church to hear mass,

    20 who came to the village?

    21 A. They went to the church, the women, but the

    22 BH army came to the village.

    23 Q. What did they do?

    24 A. Well, when my wife had left to go to church,

    25 they came to the three of us, my father, myself, and my

  12. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 Q. What did they ask you to do?

    5 A. They asked us not to leave the house, and

    6 they ordered my father to go to the shed and to take

    7 the sheep into the shed, and they sent ...

    8 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid I didn't hear

    9 that.

    10 MR. NOBILO:

    11 Q. Could you tell us what "Mali Raj" means?

    12 Would you explain to the Court what there was in the

    13 Mali Raj and the gasworks?

    14 A. Well, Mali Raj is a cafe. It's a cafe

    15 nearby.

    16 Q. And they collected all the male Croats there;

    17 is that right?

    18 A. Yes. There are about 15 or 18 of them. They

    19 were all older. Some of them were 70 years old. My

    20 father was born in 1912,(redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 Q. How many people were held in the gasworks?

    23 A. There were about 60 of us.

    24 Q. What did they say? Why did they collect you

    25 civilians? Why had they rounded you all up?

  13. 1 A. Well, we didn't want to go. I don't know why

    2 they rounded us up. I really can't say. I'm asking

    3 myself that question.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Witness DJ, when you answer,

    5 this is the Presiding Judge of the Court speaking to

    6 you, please look at the Judges. When you answer, look

    7 at the Judges. You turn to the Judges.

    8 THE WITNESS: Very well. Well, this is the

    9 first time that I'm in a court of law, so I apologise.

    10 I don't really know what's expected of me.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I'm sure you're not used

    12 to this. Make some effort.

    13 THE WITNESS: I haven't had the habit of

    14 doing this.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

    16 MR. NOBILO:

    17 Q. Now we're concentrating on the gasworks where

    18 there were about 60 people. Were there some prisoners

    19 of war there, HVO soldiers, or were they all civilians?

    20 A. All of them were civilians, except that there

    21 were younger ones too, Your Honours, yes, yes, younger

    22 people too.

    23 Q. Tell me, what were the conditions like in the

    24 gasworks? Did you have a blanket, a bed, a shower?

    25 A. Nothing, Your Honours, nothing. I slept

  14. 1 under the manager's desk. We didn't have any showers

    2 or beds. I slept on a little blanket, and there were

    3 60 of us there. We were afraid that we would

    4 suffocate, because there were people up to the age of

    5 70 there with us.

    6 Q. Tell me, was there any trench digging?

    7 A. Your Honours, the younger ones went to dig

    8 trenches, and we older ones didn't.

    9 Q. Tell me, these younger men, did they go to

    10 dig trenches every day?

    11 A. No, Your Honours, not every day. It would

    12 change. One day they would go and the other day they

    13 wouldn't go.

    14 Q. But somebody went every day; right?

    15 A. Yes. Somebody went every day.

    16 Q. Could you tell the Court where the trenches

    17 were dug?

    18 A. Yes, I can tell you. Your Honours, trenches

    19 were dug at Gunjace, Badnje, Majna, Kobiljaca, and

    20 Brestovsko.

    21 Q. Was that where the front-line was, where they

    22 were digging?

    23 A. Yes. That's where the front-line was.

    24 Q. Could you please bring your chair up closer

    25 and speak into the microphone? Right. Would you tell

  15. 1 the Court, the civilians who were in the gasworks and

    2 in Mali Raj, were all of them Croats?

    3 A. Your Honours, all of them were Croats.

    4 Q. What about UNPROFOR and the Red Cross, did

    5 they come?

    6 A. Yes, yes, Your Honours. UNPROFOR came.

    7 There were two of them who were black and blue and who

    8 couldn't be brought out into the yard, but the rest of

    9 us were taken out into the yard.

    10 Q. Tell me. You said that you were black and

    11 blue.

    12 A. No, I wasn't. Those two guys who stayed back

    13 in the offices where we slept.

    14 Q. Tell me, were you taken out of the gasworks,

    15 out of the house?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Why? Tell us why. How did this happen?

    18 Tell the Court.

    19 A. Well, Your Honours, this is the way it

    20 happened: They took us out of the gasworks and I was

    21 supposed to go and feed my cattle at home, and I did

    22 that. When I fed my cattle, they took me into my house

    23 and said, "Admit where your radio station is." And I

    24 said, "Oh, come on, I'm illiterate. How do I know what

    25 a radio station is?" And I said, "I don't have any bad

  16. 1 feelings about anybody in this village." I don't know

    2 what he had in his hands or on his belt, I don't know,

    3 but he started beating me on the shoulders and, to tell

    4 you the truth, he said, "Confess. Where is your radio

    5 station?" I said, "What do you mean, radio station? I

    6 don't have a radio station. I never had a radio

    7 station."

    8 Well, then they picked me up and they said,

    9 "Come on. Get into the car." I got into the car, and

    10 they said that I should lie down -- I mean, in the back

    11 seat of the Stojadin car and they took me to the

    12 gasworks.

    13 Q. Did you manage to see (redacted) or

    14 your father on that occasion?

    15 A. No. The next day, when they took me again to

    16 feed my cattle, it was another group of policemen who

    17 took me, and I asked this policeman, who was a nice

    18 guy, and I said, "Look, I've got to see my father and

    19 my brother. I should see them, really." And then

    20 he took me there to Mali Raj. I said, "They'll kill

    21 me. They'll kill me. There's no way I can stay alive

    22 because they keep telling me that I have this radio

    23 station."

    24 MR. NOBILO: All right. We'll stop for a

    25 moment at this point, and I would like a document to be

  17. 1 distributed but I would like it to remain under seal

    2 because it contains the name of this witness.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: This is D428, and we will not

    4 put it on the ELMO.

    5 MR. NOBILO:

    6 Q. Take a look at this. Is this a photocopy of

    7 the Red Cross card that you gave me when I first saw

    8 you?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. All right. This is what the Red Cross gave

    11 to you when they came to see you in prison; right?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Tell me, how much time did you spend in

    14 gaol? On what date did they arrest you?

    15 A. On this Easter holiday.

    16 Q. That is to say, the 18th of April, 1993?

    17 A. Yes, 1993, and I was released.

    18 Q. When were you released?

    19 A. Your Honours, I was released on the 1st of

    20 May.

    21 Q. 1993?

    22 A. Yes, 1993.

    23 Q. How did that happen? Were you released or

    24 were you exchanged?

    25 A. First, UNPROFOR came and then the Red Cross

  18. 1 came and then they registered all of us, Your Honours,

    2 and then -- and then we stayed there until the 1st of

    3 May, and on the 1st of May, there was an exchange.

    4 UNPROFOR came and Vehbija Karic and some other guys

    5 from the BH came. Three or four of them; I don't

    6 know. I just know that they were addressing Vehbija

    7 Karic, and I don't know anything else.

    8 Q. And where did you go?

    9 A. We went to Kiseljak.

    10 Q. Where do you live now?

    11 A. I live out there in Radanovici.

    12 Q. The municipality of Kiseljak?

    13 A. Yes, the municipality of Kiseljak.

    14 Q. Tell me, how many Croats lived in Bilalovac

    15 until the 18th of April, 1993, according to your

    16 estimate?

    17 A. Well, you know, on the 28th of January, all

    18 of us fled from there.

    19 Q. But then you came back.

    20 A. Yes. Part of them came back, but then some

    21 of them whose houses were destroyed did not come back.

    22 Q. All right. So let's go back to January.

    23 Until this conflict between the BH army and the HVO in

    24 January, how many Croats lived in Bilalovac?

    25 A. Your Honours, there were about 100 Croat

  19. 1 households, I think.

    2 Q. In Bosnia, how many members does a Croat

    3 household have, on average? Some people have larger

    4 families, some have smaller, but on average?

    5 A. Well, it depends. (redacted)

    6 (redacted). So see what kind of

    7 difference this is? Some have more, some have less.

    8 Q. Can we say that in Bilalovac, there were

    9 about 400 to 500 Croats?

    10 A. Yes, yes, possibly.

    11 Q. Could you please tell the Judges how many

    12 Croats are in Bilalovac today?

    13 A. Well, Your Honours, four or five, I think.

    14 Not more than that.

    15 Q. Four or five men, people, or four or five

    16 households?

    17 A. Four or five households, and all of them

    18 elderly people at that.

    19 Q. The villages surrounding Bilalovac, tell me,

    20 where did the Croats live around Bilalovac?

    21 A. They lived in Kazagici, in Kazagici, Gunjace,

    22 and -- what's the name of this other place? --

    23 Mirosevici, Sajinovici, and all these places around the

    24 gasworks. There were hardly any Muslims.

    25 Q. There were only Croats?

  20. 1 A. Croats.

    2 Q. What about those villages nowadays? Are

    3 there Croats living there?

    4 A. No, Your Honours, there's no one. There are

    5 only destroyed and burned and looted houses.

    6 Everybody's gone to Kiseljak.

    7 Q. So you say that all these Croat houses were

    8 looted and destroyed; right?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 A. Nothing, Your Honours, nothing whatsoever.

    15 Q. What about your machinery and everything?

    16 A. All of it stayed up there. After this

    17 exchange on the 1st of May, everything, everything,

    18 Your Honours, remained up there.

    19 Q. Did you visit your house recently?

    20 A. Yes, I did.

    21 Q. When?

    22 A. Well, when we had a memorial service at the

    23 cemetery about 15 days ago.

    24 Q. Did you see your machinery there? Is it

    25 there or is it not there?

  21. 1 A. No, there is nothing up there, nothing.

    2 Q. All of it was taken away?

    3 A. All of it was taken away.

    4 Q. What about your livestock?

    5 A. Nothing. Nothing, Your Honours, nothing

    6 left.

    7 Q. What does the house look like?

    8 A. It doesn't look like anything at all.

    9 Q. Well, describe to us what you mean by

    10 "nothing at all."

    11 A. Well, everything has been destroyed, more or

    12 less. The bath has been -- all the rubble lying about

    13 everywhere, there's water everywhere. Everything is

    14 open now so the water and rain can fall in and, Your

    15 Honours, everything has been destroyed and lies in

    16 ruins.

    17 Q. What about the roofs on your buildings?

    18 A. Well, there are no roofs. Just a little bit

    19 of roof is left on the house, but the rain falls in and

    20 -- everything has been destroyed, and if I go back

    21 there, I don't have anywhere to go back to, so that's

    22 it.

    23 Q. Tell me, is there anybody living in your

    24 house now?

    25 A. Well, three people, but when I visited

  22. 1 recently, when I went to the graveyard, I found an old

    2 man living there. He was an invalid, he just had a

    3 little fire going, he didn't have a stove or anything

    4 like that. That's what it looks like, it was just a

    5 little fire that he had built up. He told me -- I said

    6 that I was the owner of the house, and he said, "Well,

    7 that's all right, young man." He looked at me and I

    8 said that "I have just come to have a look at the

    9 house," and he said, "Well, just feel free to look

    10 around. I have got nothing left myself and I'm just

    11 here --" and I placed a light bulb for him so that he

    12 at least had a little bit of light to see in the dark.

    13 Q. What about your son's house? There are

    14 people living there as well, aren't there?

    15 A. Yes, there are. I didn't go into my son's

    16 house, but there are two people living there now

    17 because it was a new house, Your Honours. My house was

    18 a little older, built a little earlier on.

    19 Q. Tell the Court, please, while you were in

    20 Kiseljak as a refugee during the war in 1993, did you

    21 dig trenches?

    22 A. Your Honours, yes, I did. When I was in a

    23 good state of health, I signed up for trench-digging.

    24 I am a physical labourer so I'm used to working

    25 physically. I can't just sit around doing nothing.

  23. 1 And I dug trenches around Bileca, Majna, Gunjace,

    2 Brestovsko, around those parts, Kazagici. That's where

    3 it was.

    4 Q. Was it up by the front-lines?

    5 A. Yes, it was. It was by the front-lines.

    6 Q. Who dug trenches with you? Croats or

    7 Muslims?

    8 A. We Croats, Your Honours, dug the trenches.

    9 There were no Muslims where I was.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this concludes

    11 our examination-in-chief. We would just like to tender

    12 in evidence this Defence Exhibit and we request that it

    13 remain under seal.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe?

    15 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Mr. President.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: All right. The exhibit will be

    17 tendered. This is still in public session. I think

    18 that Mr. Kehoe will conduct the cross-examination.

    19 Witness DJ, you will now be asked questions

    20 by the Office of the Prosecutor, he will ask for some

    21 clarifications, and you may be asked some questions by

    22 the Judges, and then everything will be over, unless

    23 there is re-examination by the Defence.

    24 Mr. Kehoe?

    25 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if I can go into

  24. 1 private session just briefly and I will be done quite

    2 quickly?

    3 JUDGE JORDA: No objections, I suppose? All

    4 right. Private session for a very short time.

    5 (Private session)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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  26. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (Open session)

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, proceed.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President, Your

    13 Honours.

    14 Mr. DJ, we're from the Office of the

    15 Prosecutor, and we just want to say sorry for your

    16 troubles.

    17 We have no questions of this witness.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Re-examination? I suppose

    19 there isn't going to be one since there were no

    20 questions asked by the Prosecutor. It would be

    21 logical, I suppose, that there is nothing for you to

    22 add.

    23 MR. NOBILO: No, the Defence has no reason

    24 for additional questions, and we're happy to see that

    25 the Prosecutor can feel for this man, and if an

  27. 1 indictment would come out of this, it would be even

    2 better. Thank you.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad, do you have any

    4 questions, or Judge Shahabuddeen? I don't have any

    5 questions either.

    6 We thank you very much. It was relatively

    7 quickly done. You have gone through very painful

    8 experiences, and we hope that as time goes by you will

    9 find serenity again. The Tribunal thanks you very,

    10 very much. The usher is now going to accompany you out

    11 of the courtroom. Thank you once again.

    12 (The witness withdrew)

    13 JUDGE JORDA: There is some preparation

    14 needed. We are going to take a five-minute break, but

    15 this is not the real break. I say that for the sake of

    16 the interpreters. Just a five-minute break.

    17 --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

    19 (The witness entered court)

    20 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing will now resume.

    21 We will now resume with a public session, but the

    22 witness is protected. I turn to him -- since the

    23 witness is covered by protective measures, he can

    24 answer without any fear.

    25 First, identify yourself, please. Do not

  28. 1 move. Identify your name on the piece of paper which

    2 the registrar is showing you and simply nod if, in

    3 fact, the name is yours.

    4 THE WITNESS: (Nods)

    5 JUDGE JORDA: The Judges will allow you to

    6 remain seated while you take your oath. You will be

    7 given a text by the usher, and we ask that you read it

    8 out loud. Your voice has been altered; is that not

    9 correct, Mr. Registrar? Is the voice distorted?

    10 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I solemnly

    11 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    12 and nothing but the truth.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: You have come to the Tribunal,

    14 and we thank you for doing so, at the request of the

    15 Defence in the trial of General Blaskic, who is today a

    16 General and is accused by the International Criminal

    17 Tribunal. You may speak without hatred, without fear

    18 and in full sincerity and serenity under the protection

    19 of the Tribunal.

    20 After Mr. Nobilo asks you his questions, you

    21 will be asked questions by the Prosecution and perhaps

    22 the Judges will have some questions to ask you as well,

    23 but we will decide that later.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: Speak "without" fear.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Without fear, without hatred,

  29. 1 without any fear.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Speak "without" fear, not

    3 "about" fear.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: "Without," yes. Thank you,

    5 Judge Riad. Yes. I think that we can begin.

    6 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    7 would like to have a map distributed at the very

    8 outset. It also has a legend. So could you please

    9 have both distributed? Please put a copy on the ELMO.

    10 The original is somewhat bigger than those copies that

    11 all the participants will receive.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: We will delay the break for a

    13 little while, if the interpreters agree. Thank you

    14 very much.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: This is D429, 429 for the

    16 caption, and I would like to say that this is a

    17 confidential document.

    18 MR. NOBILO: No. It is not under seal.


    20 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:

    21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, could we please

    22 move into private session only for a few moments so

    23 that we could talk about this witness, and then we are

    24 going to move into public session immediately, please?

    25 (Private session)

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  31. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (Open session)

    6 MR. NOBILO:

    7 Q. Witness DK, could you please take the pointer

    8 over there, and then please look at the small map that

    9 is over there on the left-hand side on the ELMO. Could

    10 you please show me where Busovaca is and then please

    11 show us the road that leads to Gusti Grab where you

    12 lived?

    13 A. Busovaca (indicating), Gusti Grab

    14 (indicating).

    15 Q. How many kilometres away is Gusti Grab from

    16 Busovaca in the direction of Kiseljak?

    17 A. Exactly six kilometres.

    18 Q. Tell the Court, when did you join the HVO?

    19 A. I joined the HVO at the beginning of 1992 as

    20 I lost my job at the steelworks in Zenica. These units

    21 were being established, and so I spontaneously joined

    22 the HVO unit, just like everybody else did.

    23 Q. This HVO unit that you joined, who was in

    24 this unit?

    25 A. Mostly people from my village, mostly

  32. 1 peasants who worked in the Zenica steelworks until then

    2 and in other companies in that area. Most of the

    3 people were involved in agriculture, and they did not

    4 have any military skills. Nobody had been in a

    5 military unit before that.

    6 Q. How did you get a commander?

    7 A. We chose one of our own. We chose a man whom

    8 we trusted. It's as simple as that.

    9 Q. Please tell the Court, when you joined the

    10 HVO, what did you do then? What duties did you have?

    11 Did you go somewhere? What did you do in 1992?

    12 A. At the beginning when the unit was organised,

    13 we didn't go anywhere. We patrolled our own village

    14 during 1992. In mid 1992, we started going to Jajce,

    15 to the defence lines vis-à-vis the Serb units. After

    16 that, we went to Paklarevo, a village near Travnik on

    17 Mount Vlasic, the slopes of Mount Vlasic. We had

    18 defence lines over there, again, vis-à-vis the Serb

    19 units and vis-à-vis the former JNA units.

    20 Q. So those were your duties, patrolling in your

    21 village and also going to the front-line against the

    22 Serbs. Tell me, what was your relationship like with

    23 your neighbours, the local Muslims, throughout 1992?

    24 A. As I already said, the village of Gusti Grab

    25 is surrounded on all sides by villages that were

  33. 1 populated by Muslims. However, our relations with the

    2 Muslims were very good. Before the war, we used to

    3 work together, and there was some cooperation in

    4 agricultural work, and we worked together in the

    5 factory, and our children went to school together, so

    6 our relations were very good indeed.

    7 However, as the people from Krajina came in

    8 from Banja Luka, Prijedor, Prnjavor, the Muslims from

    9 there who were expelled by the Serbs, as they came to

    10 Bosnia, to Zenica, to Kakanj, also a lot of them came

    11 to Kacuni, to my village too, well, then there was

    12 growing tension.

    13 Q. Before you move on further, could you show

    14 the Court where Kacuni is in relation to Gusti Grab,

    15 your village, where the people from Krajina came who

    16 fled from the Serbs? What are you showing us now?

    17 A. That's Kacuni (indicating).

    18 Q. Your village, where was the centre where

    19 these people from Krajina were?

    20 A. Their seat, rather, was in the former JNA

    21 barracks and also in a building which was called

    22 "silos." That was actually one kilometre away from

    23 Kacuni. This is a massive concrete building which was

    24 used for storing wheat before, so it was really a

    25 storage space for wheat.

  34. 1 Q. When did these people come from Krajina,

    2 these new Muslims who fled from the Serbs,

    3 approximately?

    4 A. They came at the end of October, the

    5 beginning of November 1992.

    6 Q. What changed then? Could you describe it to

    7 the Court?

    8 A. Many changes took place then. As I said,

    9 until then, our relations with the local Muslims were

    10 very good. However, as these people from Krajina came

    11 in, the situation changed radically. Provocations

    12 started. There was even shooting. Roadblocks were set

    13 up on the Busovaca-Kiseljak road. The Croat population

    14 was mistreated practically at every step, because

    15 people were frightened and the situation became tense,

    16 as the people from Krajina came in.

    17 Q. Did this have a negative effect on the

    18 Croats, on the overall relationship between the Croats

    19 and the Muslims? What did the Croats think about these

    20 people from Krajina? Why did they come there

    21 precisely?

    22 JUDGE RIAD: Please say "question" and

    23 "answer." This is to the interpreters. Please say

    24 "question" and "answer." Otherwise, we cannot follow

    25 it.

  35. 1 A. These people were expelled by the Serb

    2 units. At first, the Croats understood their position,

    3 and they were welcome, but as they came, the situation

    4 changed radically. People were afraid. There were

    5 everyday provocations, as I said, and there was panic.

    6 They were afraid. They lived in fear.

    7 Q. Thank you. Could you please describe to the

    8 Court what happened on the 24th of January, 1993, to

    9 the best of your recollection?

    10 A. On the 24th of January --

    11 JUDGE RIAD: Please say "question" and

    12 "answer." We can't follow it this way.

    13 A. On the 24th of January, 1993, on the road

    14 between Busovaca and Kiseljak, the first armed incident

    15 occurred. The people from Krajina, whom I already

    16 mentioned, set up roadblocks on the road between

    17 Busovaca and Kiseljak. They controlled the traffic,

    18 and, in the meantime, an HVO vehicle came by, and it

    19 was moving from Busovaca to Kiseljak. However, it was

    20 stopped at the existing roadblock, and there was an

    21 ambush placed there, and fire was opened against this

    22 vehicle. A Zolja rocket was fired then. It missed.

    23 However, fire was also opened from automatic weapons,

    24 and Ivica Petrovic was killed on that occasion, a

    25 member of the military police of the HVO.

  36. 1 Q. On the 24th of January, 1993, there was

    2 shooting in the vicinity of your village. What did you

    3 and the other men from the village, who comprised the

    4 HVO unit, do? What did you do?

    5 A. After the armed incident, which occurred on

    6 the 24th of January, the afternoon, the remainder of

    7 the day and night were peaceful. However, the next

    8 day, at the defence line which we had at the position

    9 of Mount Vlasic ...

    10 Q. When did you put this defence line on Vlasic?

    11 A. After the people from Krajina arrived, that

    12 is to say, in October and November 1992.

    13 Q. Why there?

    14 A. That is the dominant position which was above

    15 the village, and we thought that we could defend

    16 ourselves the best from there, so it was a dominant

    17 quota.

    18 Q. So it was a hill. Could you please show the

    19 Court now where these defence trenches of yours were

    20 and what is the number showing them on this map? Tell

    21 us, please.

    22 A. Quota 641.

    23 Q. How is it marked on the map? How did we mark

    24 it, with which number?

    25 A. One.

  37. 1 Q. So it is position number one, and that is

    2 where you had your defence line. However, when the

    3 shooting started and when Petrovic was killed, when, in

    4 fact, did you personally go up to this hill?

    5 A. I went to this hill on the 24th in the

    6 evening after the incident that occurred on the road

    7 between Busovaca and Kiseljak, after the Petrovic

    8 incident.

    9 Q. How many of you gathered up there?

    10 A. Forty-five members of the HVO from my

    11 village.

    12 Q. Tell the Court what happened the next day on

    13 the 25th of January, 1993?

    14 A. The 25th of January, 1993, at 6.00 in the

    15 morning, an all-out attack against our defence line

    16 took place at the Vlasic quota. The attack came from

    17 the directions depicted as 2, 3, and 9 on the map.

    18 Q. Can you show the Court on the map the

    19 directions of attack at daybreak in the morning, and

    20 tell us from what villages they attacked your

    21 positions?

    22 A. At daybreak on the 26th in the morning, the

    23 first attacks began from the village of Bozevici,

    24 Mihaljevici, Kozlovici, Podbare, and Dolac.

    25 Q. These are arrows numbered?

  38. 1 A. As 2, 3, and 9. Those were attacks on the

    2 26th in the morning -- on the 25th in the morning.

    3 Q. How long did you manage to hold this point of

    4 defence while defending your village?

    5 A. We managed to hold out throughout that day on

    6 the 25th until the evening, and then we knew that we

    7 couldn't stay there very long, so we decided to

    8 evacuate the civilian population, old people, women,

    9 and children, so we did that. On the 25th in the

    10 evening, we waited for night to fall, and then we

    11 decided to pull the elderly, women, and children out of

    12 the village, so we did it along parallel lines along

    13 the Busovaca-Kiseljak road. The road was already held

    14 by members of the BH army then, so we couldn't do this

    15 along the road, but we had to do it in the hills during

    16 the night.

    17 Q. Could you please tell the Court, before we

    18 move on to this evacuation of civilians, were you

    19 attacked from the other side too on the 25th of

    20 January, 1993?

    21 A. Yes. In the afternoon on the 25th of

    22 January, the attack came from the other side too.

    23 Q. Could you describe which villages, and could

    24 you show on the map which directions?

    25 A. Arrows 4, 5, 6, 7, and 10, and the villages,

  39. 1 Mehurici, Podastinje, Zecica, Vukeljici, Botun, Maj and

    2 Vladici.

    3 Q. So the arrows show the directions of the

    4 attack, and circle number 10 shows the silos where the

    5 seat of the people from Krajina were; right?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. At what time did you send the refugees

    8 towards Kiseljak?

    9 A. This was in the evening, around 5.00 p.m.

    10 Night was already falling, and we decided to evacuate

    11 civilians. However, until then, there had been

    12 civilian casualties, which sped up our decision to

    13 evacuate the civilians. Unkica Basipa (phoen) was

    14 killed before that by a sniper in front of her home.

    15 In the neighbouring village of Oseliste, which is a

    16 village next to Gusti Grab, we found out about this the

    17 next day, there were four civilians casualties, Miko

    18 Kristo, Anto Stejko, a husband and wife, Mijo and Anje

    19 Grubisic too.

    20 Q. Tell us, on the map, what numbers are the

    21 arrows showing where the civilians were moving out of

    22 Gusti Grab and then Oseliste?

    23 A. Number 8.

    24 Q. The village belongs to the municipality of

    25 Busovaca. Could you tell us why you fled to Kiseljak

  40. 1 rather than Busovaca?

    2 A. We decided on the direction of Kiseljak

    3 because, at that time, in Kiseljak, there was still not

    4 any fighting, so we considered that that was better,

    5 because in Busovaca, the whole of that day, there was

    6 fighting, as was fighting in our area. That is why we

    7 decided upon Kiseljak as our direction.

    8 Q. These civilians fled and withdrew parallel to

    9 the road. Can you tell us how many civilians at that

    10 time moved in the column towards Kiseljak, to the best

    11 of your assessment?

    12 A. There were 70 to 80 of them, women, children,

    13 and mostly elderly men.

    14 Q. Was there any shooting at them?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Where did the shooting come from?

    17 A. From the direction of the villages that I

    18 mentioned a moment ago.

    19 Q. Can you tell us the numbers?

    20 A. Numbers 2, 3, and 9.

    21 Q. Would you explain to the Court, please, the

    22 civilians left, fled, and what happened to you?

    23 A. After the civilians had left and we gave them

    24 a two-soldier escort, we remained on our line, and we

    25 stayed there as much as we were able to, but the next

  41. 1 day, we began to withdraw to Kiseljak.

    2 Q. What day was that?

    3 A. It was Tuesday.

    4 Q. The 26th of April, 1993; that's right, isn't

    5 it?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. What happened to you then?

    8 A. Before I decided to withdraw, I asked the

    9 commander of the front-line to go back to the village

    10 and to visit Mrs. Luca Lalic, who was a relation of

    11 mine and who remained in the village. I knew she was

    12 still there. She was 86 years old. We didn't have any

    13 possibility of taking her out of the village, so she

    14 had to stay. I asked my commander to give me

    15 permission to visit this old relation of mine to see if

    16 I could give her any assistance of any kind.

    17 I went back to the house of Mijo Patista

    18 where my old relation was living. I came up to the

    19 house. I did not notice anything fishy. I went into

    20 the house to help her. However, when I entered the

    21 house, I was ambushed by the members of the BH army,

    22 who were all around us, and I was arrested on that

    23 occasion and taken to the place silos that I mentioned

    24 a moment ago.

    25 Q. I think I made a mistake a moment ago. It

  42. 1 was the 26th of January, 1993, was it not?

    2 A. Yes, it was.

    3 Q. Before we go on to describe the events in

    4 silos, after you had become a prisoner of war, can you

    5 tell me whether some civilians stayed in your village,

    6 the village of Gusti Grab?

    7 A. Yes, of course, just as Mrs. Lalic stayed

    8 behind, so, also, did Mrs. Ljubica Ljubicic. She

    9 remained with her invalid husband who was paralysed, so

    10 we were not able to transport him either. Marijan

    11 Cavara and Stipo Tomas remained behind, which means a

    12 total of four. Mr. Tomas stayed with his family.

    13 However, all the civilians I mentioned were

    14 killed several days after the departure of our unit

    15 from our front-line, that is to say, after our

    16 withdrawal, and all the other civilians were killed.

    17 Marijan Cavara, Stipo Tomas, Ljubica Ljubicic, and Luca

    18 Lalic, they were all killed.

    19 Q. Were they older people?

    20 A. Yes. As I said, Ljubica Ljubicic was 86

    21 years old. Marijan Cavara was the youngest of them

    22 all, and he was 57 years old.

    23 Q. Before we continue with the events that

    24 followed, we can take a break and look at what happened

    25 to the village. First of all, how many Croat houses

  43. 1 existed in the village of Gusti Grab?

    2 A. There were 50 to 60 Croat houses, and these

    3 houses, that is, a lesser number, were destroyed during

    4 the fighting. Some were hit by mortar fire, but, as I

    5 say, it was a smaller number of houses. The other

    6 houses were destroyed later on. After the signing of

    7 the first cease-fire, most of the houses were looted

    8 and then set fire to. A very small number of houses,

    9 which were nearer to the road between Kiseljak and

    10 Busovaca, the Muslims went to live in them, but this

    11 was a smaller number, as I say. For the most part,

    12 they were looted and burnt and left.

    13 Nobody has yet returned to Gusti Grab. As it

    14 remained that day, it remains to this present day, so

    15 none of the Croats returned.

    16 Q. The neighbouring village of Oseliste, what

    17 happened there? Was the situation similar?

    18 A. Yes, it was. What happened to that village

    19 was the same as in the other village. The houses were

    20 burnt, the population had fled, and nobody has returned

    21 to this day.

    22 Q. Let us now go back to the 26th of January,

    23 1993. You, yourself, as an HVO soldier, were taken to

    24 silos. Would you describe to the Court, please, the

    25 conditions of your sojourn in that facility? You said

  44. 1 that a silo was there for storing grain. Would you

    2 describe what the building looked like?

    3 A. Well, it was a big concrete building, as I

    4 said, made of concrete mostly. There were 10 to 12

    5 large, sort of, rooms, ten by five metres in size, and

    6 a little smaller rooms. This building was used by the

    7 BH army to store ammunition and weapons for the army,

    8 and a part of the command was located there as well in

    9 the silos.

    10 Q. The command was on an upper story. Where

    11 were you located?

    12 A. I was located in a cell on the ground floor,

    13 and the dimensions were, as I have already said, ten by

    14 five metres. I was taken to this room which did not

    15 have any heating and did not have a bed. I spent the

    16 first three days imprisoned there on my own.

    17 I was by myself, and as soon as I got to the

    18 prison, I was taken for interrogation. They wanted to

    19 get information from me, the information that I just

    20 did not have. They asked me about our weapons,

    21 warehouses, ammunition, food, radio stations, heavy

    22 weaponry, which we did not have. When I was not able

    23 to tell them any of this, because I did not know

    24 anything, we didn't have any of these facilities, I was

    25 beaten up immediately on the spot. I had to stand up

  45. 1 by the wall with my arms and legs stretched out and my

    2 forehead up against the wall, and they beat me on the

    3 back using police batons or rifle butts or with their

    4 feet and legs and anything they could find. This

    5 occurred several times in the first three days that I

    6 spent alone in my cell.

    7 On the fourth day, they transferred me to

    8 another room similar to the first room, and I found 13

    9 other HVO members in that room, and they too had been

    10 taken prisoner by the people of Krajina. Before the

    11 fighting itself, that is to say, after the Petrovic

    12 incident, these people were taken to the silo, and on

    13 day four, I was transferred to their cell. I was

    14 together with them in the cell. On that occasion, we

    15 had to greet the Muslims coming into the cell, and we

    16 had to use their own Islamic terms of greeting, terms

    17 which they used amongst themselves, such as Merhaba,

    18 Salam Haleikoum, and I don't really know what these

    19 terms mean.

    20 When I was transferred to this second cell,

    21 they continued to maltreat me and to beat me up, but

    22 the way in which they did this changed somewhat.

    23 Usually four or five of them would enter the cell. One

    24 of them would immediately take out his gun. He would

    25 start firing, and he would turn the barrel of the gun

  46. 1 towards my leg, and then he would warn us and threaten

    2 us, and say that nobody must try to avoid a blow or

    3 block the person hitting us. We had to sit as we were

    4 sitting, and then three or four of them made a column.

    5 They went one by one and beat us. They repeated this

    6 several times going around in a circle. We had to

    7 remain sitting. We were not able to move. We were not

    8 allowed to move. They just hit us and beat us up as

    9 they saw fit.

    10 I could also add that, on two occasions, I

    11 lost consciousness from the beatings given me by the

    12 members of the BH army. On those occasions, they took

    13 me out of the cell into another similar cell, and then

    14 in the position that I said a moment ago, with my arms

    15 stretched out and my legs stretched out and my forehead

    16 up by the wall, two or three of them would beat me with

    17 police batons until I had lost consciousness. This was

    18 repeated twice. Then they would take me back to the

    19 cell in the kind of state I was in, beaten up.

    20 Q. You had serious bodily injury done to you

    21 during these beatings, did you not?

    22 A. Yes. In one of the beatings, and these

    23 beatings were repeated day after day, I got serious

    24 bodily harm. My jaw was broken. I was kicked with an

    25 army boot in my jaw, and this was a severe bodily

  47. 1 injury. I had an open fracture of the jaw.

    2 Afterwards, I felt very strong pain, and I

    3 asked for medicines to be given to me for the pain, but

    4 I received nothing. On the occasion, they just made

    5 fun of me, and they said, "Well, you shouldn't be here

    6 anyway. You should go to Croatia. That's where you

    7 belong. This is Bosnia-Herzegovina. This belongs to

    8 the Muslims and only to the Muslims, and you're going

    9 to go away from here, so there's nothing for you

    10 here."

    11 Q. The people that said this to you, were they

    12 your neighbours or were they the people from Krajina

    13 that had fled in the face of the Serbs?

    14 A. No. They were not our neighbours. Even in

    15 prison, they were fair and correct in their conduct

    16 towards us, but the people from Krajina beat us up and

    17 they said things of this kind to us and made us use the

    18 Islamic terms of greeting that I mentioned a moment

    19 ago, and I felt that our neighbours, the Muslims,

    20 seemed to be afraid of the people from Krajina

    21 themselves, that they too were afraid of these people.

    22 Q. When you received these severe bodily

    23 injuries, could you describe how this happened? What

    24 position were you in and how did you sustain these

    25 injuries?

  48. 1 A. I was sitting on a wooden bench in the cell,

    2 and four or five of them entered the cell and they did

    3 what they did. One of them took a rifle and started --

    4 a gun and started shooting. We were told not to move,

    5 that we were not allowed to move, and then they would

    6 move around in a column, one after the other, beating

    7 us any which way. They paid no attention how they

    8 struck us or where they struck us. So we were sitting

    9 down. I was in a sitting-down position when I was

    10 kicked in my jaw, and that is how my jaw was fractured.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps this would be the time

    12 to take a 15-minute break.

    13 --- Recess taken at 4.47 p.m.

    14 --- On resuming at 5.10 p.m.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Have the accused brought in,

    16 please.

    17 (The accused entered court)

    18 MR. NOBILO:

    19 Q. Shall we continue? At one point in time, did

    20 the International Red Cross come to your prison?

    21 A. Yes. The International Red Cross came on the

    22 eighth or ninth day of our stay in prison.

    23 Q. Did they give you IDs?

    24 A. Yes. A few officials of the International

    25 Red Cross came, and Mr. Stipo Santic came with them, an

  49. 1 official of the Red Cross from Busovaca. On that

    2 occasion, the International Red Cross registered us,

    3 gave us IDs, and also on that occasion, we got some

    4 sanitary materials which we did not have until then and

    5 we also got some cigarettes. I could also say that

    6 during our stay in prison, the hygiene was

    7 non-existent. We didn't have toilets to go to. We had

    8 to relieve ourselves in the rooms where we were

    9 staying. So it was very bad.

    10 Q. Did you take baths?

    11 A. No, never. Throughout our stay there in

    12 prison, there were no conditions for hygiene.

    13 Q. After the Red Cross came, did the conditions

    14 improve in terms of the attitude of the BH army

    15 soldiers towards you?

    16 A. No, not at all. After the International Red

    17 Cross left, everything remained the same. After that,

    18 we were beaten, mistreated. The people from Krajina

    19 said the same things as they were saying before that,

    20 that this was their land, that they would move in

    21 there, that they would throw the Croats out, that the

    22 Croats had no place there, that Croatia was for them to

    23 live in, that this was their land, that they were to

    24 decide on our fate, that they could execute us whenever

    25 they wanted to, that they would simply decide what our

  50. 1 destiny would be. So after the International Red Cross

    2 left, our treatment in prison remained the same.

    3 Q. However, there was an exchange,

    4 nevertheless. On what date were you exchanged and in

    5 which way?

    6 A. Yes. On the 8th of February, 1993, the

    7 exchange took place according to the principle "all for

    8 all." A bus came from Busovaca, escorted by UNPROFOR

    9 and with a few officials of the Red Cross, so there in

    10 the silos an exchange was carried out, and then we

    11 could state our views who wanted to go where. I

    12 personally went to Busovaca, my family was down there,

    13 so on the 8th of February, I was exchanged.

    14 Q. Tell us, you were shut in the silos all the

    15 time, weren't you?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. On the map that is on the ELMO, are the silos

    18 marked with a number 10, a little circle?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. I would now like to

    21 have a document distributed. That is a Red Cross ID.

    22 I would like it to be under seal.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: This is D430.

    24 MR. NOBILO:

    25 Q. After you left, after the exchange, where did

  51. 1 you go?

    2 A. After the exchange, I went to Busovaca, and I

    3 asked for medical assistance because of the injuries

    4 sustained in prison. I had to seek medical

    5 assistance. But my injuries were of such a nature that

    6 I could not receive adequate treatment in Busovaca or

    7 the nearby hospital in Nova Bila. I was sent for

    8 medical treatment to Split.

    9 MR. NOBILO: We would like a new document to

    10 be introduced into evidence, please, under seal as

    11 well.

    12 Q. The photocopy that is in front of you of a

    13 Red Cross ID, is that a photocopy of the ID that we got

    14 from you, of your ID?

    15 A. Yes, it is.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: This is D431.

    17 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, these are medical

    18 documents. Unfortunately, we received this at the very

    19 last moment so we didn't manage to get it translated,

    20 but we shall do so and we take it upon ourselves.

    21 On page 2, I draw your attention to the

    22 diagnosis in Latin which is quite recognisable, and one

    23 can see that his jaw was fractured and that his nose

    24 was fractured too, and also that there were several

    25 swellings on his head. You can see this from the Latin

  52. 1 diagnosis, but ...

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Witness DK, do you agree to our

    3 discussing this medical certificate, because these are

    4 your injuries; do you agree?

    5 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Please continue.

    7 MR. NOBILO:

    8 Q. Witness DK, tell us, this paper that you got

    9 in the hospital in Split, did you get it after you were

    10 released and during your treatment there?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have thus

    13 concluded the examination-in-chief.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Is there any objection to the

    15 tendering of these exhibits?

    16 MR. KEHOE: I don't believe so, Judge. I

    17 haven't read this particular document, but -- I know

    18 it's been a few years. I can make out a little bit of

    19 the Latin myself. I don't anticipate it, Judge, but --

    20 so at this point, if we just admit it with some

    21 reservations so I can just maybe get a rough

    22 translation of it, but I don't think there will be.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: We congratulate you for your

    24 knowledge of the fourth official language of the

    25 Tribunal, that's Latin. Now, if you have any

  53. 1 objections you would like to make, you can make them in

    2 a few days once the document has been translated.

    3 Perhaps you will now begin with the

    4 cross-examination.

    5 Witness DK, as I'm sure you've been told, the

    6 Office of the Prosecutor is going to ask you some

    7 questions.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: You are an authority on Latin.

    9 Would you translate it to me?

    10 MR. KEHOE: I can't translate it literally,

    11 Judge, but I can make out a few words here and there in

    12 order to come to the conclusion that whatever happened

    13 to this gentleman wasn't good. That's my medical

    14 diagnosis based on that first paragraph.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: I want to be sure that the

    16 witness understands that this is a moment of a little

    17 bit of relaxation here that we have just heard, but we

    18 are taking your condition extremely seriously and we

    19 will look at the document very seriously.

    20 Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

    21 MR. KEHOE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

    22 Mr. DK, I meant no disrespect concerning your injuries

    23 which I can see from your testimony were quite

    24 serious.

    25 Cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe:

  54. 1 Q. Witness DK, my name is Greg Kehoe. I'm from

    2 the Office of the Prosecutor. My two colleagues to my

    3 right are Mr. Mark Harmon and Mr. Andrew Cayley

    4 respectively.

    5 I would just like to ask you a couple of

    6 questions, Witness DK, and it won't be that lengthy.

    7 Witness DK, you gave us your date of birth.

    8 That was given to us in a private session, and we need

    9 not go into the specific date of birth, but did you

    10 serve in the JNA having done national service?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. When was that, sir?

    13 A. That was in 1977.

    14 Q. How long were you in the JNA?

    15 A. Fifteen months.

    16 Q. Now, Witness DK, you said you joined the HVO,

    17 I believe, sometime in 1992; is that right?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And you noted to us that you joined with many

    20 of the other men in your community; is that right?

    21 A. From my village, yes.

    22 Q. I'm sorry, from your village. Would it be

    23 fair to say, Witness DK, that virtually all of the men

    24 that were in the HVO from your village had done

    25 national service with the JNA?

  55. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Now, Witness DK, you noted for us that you

    3 went to the front-lines in Jajce.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Was that a common thing for soldiers in the

    6 JNA (sic) to do during 1992?

    7 A. For JNA soldiers? I don't understand.

    8 Q. I'm sorry, I misspoke. Excuse me. I

    9 apologise. Was it normal for HVO soldiers to go to the

    10 front-line at Jajce during 1992?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. How did you get to Jajce? How did you and

    13 the other HVO soldiers get to Jajce?

    14 A. We had transportation by bus from Busovaca,

    15 so we went to Jajce to defend it from the Serb units,

    16 that is to say, to the defence line vis-à-vis the Serb

    17 units.

    18 Q. So correct me if I'm wrong, you received

    19 notification that you were supposed to go to the front

    20 in Jajce and then you got on buses with other soldiers

    21 in the HVO and they drove you to Jajce; is that right?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. So this was done in an organised fashion; is

    24 that right?

    25 A. One could say so.

  56. 1 Q. Now, could I ask you, Witness DK, just

    2 briefly to take a look at this map, I think it's

    3 Defence 429? If we could give that to the witness?

    4 Now, Witness DK, before we go into this

    5 particular map, let me just ask you another question.

    6 I neglected to note that there were other HVO units

    7 that went up to Mount Vlasic to go on the line against

    8 the Bosnian Serbs in that location also; is that right?

    9 A. Yes, and also there were BH army units. At

    10 that time, we went together to defend the line against

    11 the Serb units.

    12 Q. So did you do service, Witness DK, in both

    13 the Jajce area and also up on Mount Vlasic?

    14 A. Yes. I was there twice, seven days

    15 respectively. Seven days in Jajce and seven days on

    16 Mount Vlasic.

    17 Q. Now, you noted for us just a few moments ago

    18 that you got on a bus with other HVO soldiers that took

    19 you to Jajce. Did you follow the same procedure when

    20 you and other HVO soldiers went up to the line at Mount

    21 Vlasic?

    22 A. We also went to Mount Vlasic together with

    23 the Muslim units. The organisation was the same.

    24 Q. Okay. Excuse me one moment.

    25 Now, just, if I may, go back to Exhibit 429,

  57. 1 the map that's on the ELMO, Witness DK. You noted for

    2 us that your trench line was on position 1; is that

    3 right?

    4 A. I'm sorry, I never mentioned trench-digging.

    5 Q. No, no, no, no. I'm not talking about

    6 trenches. Can you just take a look at the map that's

    7 to your left, or maybe it's on the ELMO before you, and

    8 maybe I misheard you, Witness DK, but did you not tell

    9 us you had a defensive position at the area that is

    10 marked number 1?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Were there trenches, was it a trench there,

    13 or what type of defence line are we talking about here?

    14 A. Yes, there were.

    15 Q. Now, were there other trenches along that

    16 same line that were dug by other villages such as

    17 Oseliste?

    18 A. No. At this defence line were only our

    19 trenches that we dug, we from the village of Gusti

    20 Grab. Two or three hundred metres away from ours were

    21 the trenches of the BH army. The village of Oseliste

    22 is not that close to the village of Gusti Grab, so we

    23 did not have any contact. It's a bit further away, so

    24 we did not have any contact in combat action.

    25 Q. Well, Witness DK, other than the trenches

  58. 1 that you said that are at point 1, were there other HVO

    2 trenches along this line?

    3 A. Along the line, along our defence line, which

    4 was one and a half kilometres long, there were about

    5 ten trenches.

    6 Q. Maybe I'm not being clear here, Witness DK.

    7 To the left and the right of the trenches that are

    8 designated as number 1, were there any other HVO

    9 trenches in either direction that you know of?

    10 A. No, there weren't any.

    11 Q. Now, the particular trenches that you had up

    12 in point 1, when did you dig those?

    13 A. We dug them mostly after the people from

    14 Krajina came, the ones I mentioned, that is to say,

    15 October and November 1992.

    16 Q. Which way were those trenches facing? Were

    17 they facing towards the numbers 2, 3, and 9, or facing

    18 towards the numbers 4, 10, 5, and 6?

    19 A. We were facing trenches 2, 3, and 9. We did

    20 not have enough people. As I said before, there was a

    21 total of 45 of us all together. There wasn't enough of

    22 us to have a defence line at 4, 5, 6, 7, and 10, the

    23 other side. We knew this was necessary, but we simply

    24 didn't have enough manpower, so we decided on defence

    25 where numbers 2, 3, and 9 are.

  59. 1 Q. Now, Witness DK, there were no lines with the

    2 Bosnian Serbs around here, were there?

    3 A. No, not at this location because the Bosnian

    4 Serbs are several dozen kilometres away, so there

    5 weren't any -- there weren't any Serb units that were

    6 facing there.

    7 MR. KEHOE: If I might have one moment,

    8 Mr. President?

    9 Witness DK, I'm sorry for your troubles. I

    10 hope your injuries have gotten better to some degree.

    11 Thank you very much for coming.

    12 Mr. President, Your Honours, I have no

    13 further questions.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?

    15 MR. NOBILO: Just one, two, or three

    16 questions at the most.

    17 Re-examined by Mr. Nobilo:

    18 Q. Witness DK, you said that in 1977, you were

    19 in the Yugoslav People's Army and that in 1992 you

    20 joined the HVO. Did you, in this period of 15 years,

    21 have any contact with the army?

    22 A. No, I did not have any contacts with the

    23 army, and in 1977, in the Yugoslav People's Army, I

    24 served in the anti-aircraft unit.

    25 Q. When you went to the front towards the Serbs

  60. 1 in Vlasic and Jajce, once Vlasic, once Jajce, was this

    2 a mobilisation, compulsory mobilisation, or was it

    3 voluntary, who turns up, turns up, who doesn't,

    4 doesn't?

    5 A. Yes, that's what it was like. If you turned

    6 up, you turned up. If not, there would be no

    7 disciplinary measures taken, so it was on a volunteer

    8 basis, and this departure to Jajce and Paklarevo, it

    9 was purely on a voluntary basis, and the lines held by

    10 the HVO at the time, together with the Muslims, were of

    11 a defensive nature. We had no combat operations, no

    12 attacks of any kind.

    13 Q. In the discussion with your colleagues on the

    14 front, with the HVO members, was this volunteership

    15 equal with others or not? Compulsory mobilisation, did

    16 that exist anywhere?

    17 A. As far as I know, everything was like that.

    18 There was no mobilisation. Everything was on a

    19 voluntary basis.

    20 Q. You said that in October and November, that

    21 you started digging trenches when the people from

    22 Krajina came, and you also said that across from you,

    23 from the directions 2, 3, and 9, trenches were already

    24 dug by the BH army. When had they dug their trenches?

    25 A. Well, the 2, 3, and 9 positions and the

  61. 1 trenches there were dug far before our own trenches, so

    2 they had dug these trenches in the summer of 1992

    3 already, and I can freely state that they had much more

    4 modern positions, and the trenches that they dug were

    5 dug using earth-moving machinery and tractors. They

    6 had more modern trenches than we did, and they had dug

    7 their trenches before us. We did not think it

    8 necessary to dig trenches because, as I say, our

    9 relations with the Muslims beforehand had been very

    10 good. However, with the advent of the Krajishici

    11 people, we felt the need to dig these trenches because

    12 we were afraid of an attack with the arrival of the

    13 people from Krajina. And the Bosnia-Herzegovina army

    14 trenches, therefore, had been dug far before our own.

    15 Q. Tell the Court, please, the trenches that had

    16 been dug before your own trenches from the directions

    17 of 2, 3, and 9, were they turned towards the Croat

    18 villages and your own village?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    21 have no further questions.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Judge Riad, do you

    23 have any questions? Judge Shahabuddeen?

    24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, I have a question.

    25 Witness DK, the people who attacked you and

  62. 1 treated you ill were from Krajina. They were Muslims,

    2 I take it?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Previously, you had

    5 lived well, the Croats had lived well with the local

    6 Muslims; is that correct?

    7 A. Very good relations, yes.

    8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: What happened with those

    9 relations during the ensuing conflict? I am talking

    10 about relations between the local Croats and the local

    11 Muslims?

    12 A. Relations began to deteriorate with the

    13 arrival of the people from Krajina. Various

    14 provocations broke out such as shooting, the setting up

    15 of barricades, the roadblock along the

    16 Busovaca-Kiseljak road, and various communications were

    17 stopped. There were controls along the road. There

    18 was looting at the barricades, mostly of the Croat

    19 population, and so relationships became tense with the

    20 arrival of the people from Krajina.

    21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: In your judgement, is

    22 there any prospect of those relations improving? Have

    23 they improved? Are they likely to improve?

    24 A. Well, some measures of improvement are with

    25 us, and I truly hope that relationships return to what

  63. 1 they were before the war. We are working on that, and

    2 some steps forward have been made, and I hope that that

    3 will be the case. I wish for it wholeheartedly.

    4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, I think I could

    5 say, Witness DK, that I share entirely your hope.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: I have only one question to ask

    7 you. When you were in the HVO, could you tell us who

    8 your chiefs were, the chief that was closest to you and

    9 then the one that you recognised as being the highest.

    10 There must have been a brigade commander. Did you know

    11 where your orders were coming from? Even if it was an

    12 army made up of villagers, there were orders telling

    13 you to do this or that. How did it work? Who were

    14 those men?

    15 A. My immediate commander, my first superior,

    16 was also from my village, a man whom we had elected

    17 from amongst our ranks, amongst ourselves, as I said,

    18 at the beginning. In Busovaca, there was the Nikola

    19 Subic-Zrinski brigade. The commander of the brigade

    20 was called Mr. Dusko Grubesic. Our captain, which was

    21 known as the second platoon later on, which belonged to

    22 the 2nd Battalion, was within the formations of the

    23 Busovaca Nikola Subic-Zrinski brigade, and if we

    24 received any orders -- as I have said, we worked in our

    25 village, we had watches. We did not receive any

  64. 1 separate orders. We did not have any military training

    2 of any kind. We were just, as I said, people living in

    3 their own homes doing their usual -- going about their

    4 usual business, and if we did get orders, this was from

    5 Busovaca from Mr. Dusko Grubesic or from Mladen Akrap

    6 who was the commander of the battalion there.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mladen ...

    8 As regards the accused, in your opinion, who

    9 was he? Was he a leader that you recognised? Was he

    10 the chief?

    11 A. I did not have any views -- that is to say, I

    12 was in my village, so I did not know of the command

    13 structures and the commanders. As far as the accused

    14 is concerned, I had heard of him, but I did not know

    15 what his duties were and responsibilities. I wasn't

    16 informed of these matters.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Since then, have you learned

    18 what his responsibilities were?

    19 A. I knew that he was a commander, but I didn't

    20 know all his duties and responsibilities. I knew later

    21 on that he was the commander, but essentially I didn't

    22 know what that implied, what all his duties and

    23 responsibilities actually were.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Were your comrades in that same

    25 condition, they didn't know either, that you only had

  65. 1 an immediate superior, it was Mr. Dusko Grubesic? Was

    2 that how it was? All your comrades were like you?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: I think that the Tribunal

    5 sympathises with your injuries. We hope that you are

    6 feeling better now and that, if possible, you will be

    7 able to forget this dreadful period of your life.

    8 Now you will be taken out of the courtroom,

    9 you will be taken care of by the Victims and Witnesses

    10 Unit, and the Tribunal would like to thank you for

    11 having come to The Hague.

    12 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, we were not so

    13 optimistic as to think we would get through three

    14 witnesses this evening. We have more witnesses for

    15 tomorrow, but we do not have another witness in the

    16 witness room right now. So that would conclude our

    17 presentation for this afternoon.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. You see? That

    19 happens to all the parties, that is, running out of

    20 witnesses. Let me remind you of that.

    21 Having said so, we take note of what you have

    22 just said and will allow the interpreters to breathe a

    23 bit, and we will meet again tomorrow morning at 9.45

    24 for a long morning.

    25 The hearing is adjourned. But for the time

  66. 1 being, witness, please do not move.

    2 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    3 5.41 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

    4 the 6th day of November, 1998, at

    5 9.45 a.m.