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  1. 1 Tuesday, 24th November, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 10.19 a.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated and have the

    5 accused brought in, please.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar, the Judges would

    8 like to have a closed session before the witness comes

    9 in, or private session.

    10 (Private session)

    11 (redacted)

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    13 Pages 15305 to 15315 redacted – in private session













  1. 1 (The witness entered court)

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me, Mrs. Papic?

    3 THE WITNESS: I do.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: You're not going to remain

    5 standing for very long, let me tell you that right

    6 away. First of all, give us your name, your given

    7 name, your place and date of birth and where you're

    8 currently residing.

    9 THE WITNESS: I was born in Poculica. I'm

    10 staying in Vitez.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: You were born in Poculica, if

    12 I'm not mistaken. How old are you? What is your date

    13 of birth, please?

    14 THE WITNESS: I was born in '39.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Please remain standing for a

    16 few more moments.

    17 THE WITNESS: I was born in '39.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Do you remember the date and

    19 the month?

    20 THE WITNESS: In March.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: The 3rd of which month?

    22 THE WITNESS: In March, in 1939.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: All right. The 3rd of March.

    24 Thank you. Yes, it was in March. And what was the

    25 day?

  2. 1 THE WITNESS: The 13th. The 13th.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: It was the 13th of March.

    3 Thank you very much.

    4 I'm saying this for the Defence: Mrs. Mara

    5 Papic was born on the 13th of March, 1939. Please read

    6 the oath, but perhaps if you have difficulties reading,

    7 the registrar will read it for you. The registrar will

    8 read to you a statement -- a declaration, rather, and

    9 you will nod your approval of that declaration. Go

    10 ahead.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: If would you repeat after

    12 me. "I solemnly declare."

    13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: "That I will speak the truth."

    15 THE WITNESS: That I will speak the truth.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: "The whole truth."

    17 THE WITNESS: The whole truth.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: "And nothing but truth."

    19 THE WITNESS: And nothing but the truth.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much,

    21 Mrs. Papic, you may be seated now.

    22 Relax, Mrs. Papic, you have nothing to fear.

    23 You have agreed to come to a far away country, in

    24 respect of your own country. Do not be afraid. If

    25 you're tired, tell us that you're tired.

  3. 1 You're going to answer questions that will

    2 first be asked by the counsel working for

    3 General Blaskic, and then you will be asked questions

    4 by the Office of the Prosecutor, and the Judges may

    5 also ask you some questions.

    6 Don't be afraid. You are accused of nothing,

    7 but you are the one who is coming to testify, and we

    8 are appreciative of that. Do you feel all right?

    9 THE WITNESS: I do.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I think that we can

    11 begin now. Mr. Nobilo.


    13 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:

    14 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    15 Q. Mrs. Papic, just a few more things about

    16 you. You said that you were born on the 13th of March,

    17 1939 in Poculica. Did you live in Poculica until the

    18 war with the Muslims?

    19 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

    20 Q. And where do you live now?

    21 A. Now I live in Vitez.

    22 Q. As a displaced person?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Can you return to your house?

    25 A. No.

  4. 1 Q. Tell me, how many children do you have?

    2 A. I have three, two daughters and one son.

    3 Q. And you're a widow.

    4 A. Right?

    5 Q. Please tell the Court, did you ever appear

    6 before a court of law? Did you ever go to prison?

    7 Were you ever punished in such a way in your life?

    8 A. No, I've never been to a court of law in my

    9 life.

    10 Q. Never. So this is the first time?

    11 A. Right.

    12 Q. Please, could we have a map distributed?

    13 There's original and copies.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: This is D449.

    15 MR. NOBILO:

    16 Q. Before we start, before you start making your

    17 statement, could you please explain to the Court

    18 whether it is correct that you and I made up this map?

    19 You showed me the direction in which you were fleeing

    20 from Poculica, and then I pasted this red arrow on the

    21 map, and the circle shows Poculica, your village, and

    22 Vitez; is that correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Until the war broke out you lived in

    25 Poculica. Tell us, did Muslims and Croats live

  5. 1 together in Poculica?

    2 A. Yes. The mosque was right over here, and

    3 then there were the Croats and then over here were the

    4 Muslims, and the Croats. From my house, down there,

    5 there were more Croats. It wasn't that mixed.

    6 Q. How did you get along with your Muslim

    7 neighbours? Could you please describe that to the

    8 Court?

    9 A. Very nicely. Very nicely. When it was

    10 Bajram we would go to see them, and when we celebrated

    11 Christmas they came to see us. I have a neighbour,

    12 there's only a fence between our yard and their yard.

    13 And, you know, we were all retired persons and we

    14 weren't exactly well-off, and whatever was ours was

    15 theirs and vice versa.

    16 Q. Did anything frighten you on Easter when you

    17 saw some men with long beards who were practising

    18 something? Was it your neighbours, your

    19 Muslim neighbours who frightened you in any way?

    20 Please describe what you saw.

    21 A. Well, you know, they were walking down the

    22 road, and these people were running along exercising,

    23 doing something, you know, a long beard, a long -- and

    24 long blonde hair too, and I never saw that before.

    25 Nobody in our parts wears a long beard and long hair

  6. 1 like that. I asked my neighbour, Smajo, "What is

    2 this? Why are these people running down" --

    3 Q. Yes. And your neighbour is a Muslim; right?

    4 A. Yes, yes. He's called Smajo. So I asked

    5 him, and he said, "Well, these are foreigners. These

    6 are Mujahedin. They've come to our place to Prnjavor,

    7 don't be frightened." We never thought that something

    8 would come out of it, you know.

    9 Q. And please tell the Court, on the 15th of

    10 April, 1993, that is a day before the shooting actually

    11 broke out in your village, what were you doing? Did

    12 you notice that there would be a war? Did you go to a

    13 meeting?

    14 A. Yes. We went to a meeting, and the

    15 municipality of Vitez convened all of us to a meeting.

    16 Q. And what do you mean "all of us"? Who was

    17 all of you?

    18 A. All of us, the Muslims and the Croats. We

    19 were retirees and they wanted to give us something. We

    20 spent about an hour at this meeting, and we went home

    21 and we don't know a thing after that. This neighbour

    22 of mine, he walked me home and -- we walked together, I

    23 mean.

    24 Q. Did the municipality of Vitez wish to give

    25 seed to both you and the Muslims so that you could

  7. 1 actually do your agricultural work in the spring,

    2 right, so you could plant whatever you had to?

    3 A. Yes, that's right.

    4 Q. And was it given to both of you?

    5 A. Yes, it was given to both of us.

    6 Q. The Muslims and the Croats?

    7 A. Yes, the Muslims and the Croats. We did it

    8 together, you know.

    9 Q. The next day, the 16th of April, 1993, before

    10 the shooting started in your village, who called you

    11 and who told you what? And how many minutes before

    12 that?

    13 A. About ten minutes before all that my sister

    14 phoned me, and she said, "Hey, have you heard all this

    15 shooting?" I said, "No, no, I can't hear any

    16 shooting. Where?" She said to me, "Go up there to

    17 momma's." You know, our mother lives near the school,

    18 between the Muslims and the Croats. She said, "Go and

    19 get our mother." Our mother is old. She's 80 years

    20 old.

    21 I went to get my mother, and I called my son

    22 to go to Grebenar. I mean, that was the commander

    23 if --

    24 Q. Just a minute. Sorry. We have to wait a

    25 little bit to have your words translated, so we're

  8. 1 going to make small pauses as we speak.

    2 Where was your son at daybreak? What did he

    3 do?

    4 A. They were on guard duty together, the Muslims

    5 and the Croats. They were walking up and down the

    6 road. I don't know. Some kind of guard duty because

    7 of these Serbian -- I don't know what.

    8 Q. And tell me, your son, did he know that there

    9 would be a war?

    10 A. No, he didn't. When I said, "Go over there

    11 to Grebenar," we could hear shooting, my sister called

    12 me, "Let's see what's going to happen, what we're going

    13 to do." And that's when it started shooting all over

    14 the place, when Grebenar came to my house, he made a

    15 phone call to Vitez and they said, "We don't know a

    16 thing." And they said, "Yes, there's shooting some

    17 place but we don't know either."

    18 Q. And tell me, Grebenar was the commander in

    19 your village; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes, he was the commander, and he came to my

    21 place straight away.

    22 Q. After Grebenar made this phone call to Vitez

    23 and that they -- when they said that they also saw that

    24 there was shooting but they didn't know exactly where,

    25 what happened in your village? Was there shelling or

  9. 1 what?

    2 A. There was shooting all over the place.

    3 Behind the mosque where the Croatian houses were, there

    4 was shooting there, and they took our Croat people and

    5 they drove them away from the mosque. They took them

    6 to prison.

    7 Q. And tell me, did shells start falling around

    8 your house and in this Croatian part of the village?

    9 A. First the sheds were on fire.

    10 Q. Whose sheds?

    11 A. And right by the mosque, you know.

    12 Q. Is that person a Croat?

    13 A. Yes, yes, he's a Croat, and his shed and

    14 Kristo Bozo's shed and his stable also caught fire.

    15 Q. Is he also Croat?

    16 A. Yes, he is also a Croat. Ten minutes later,

    17 Stipan Ramnjak's two houses and stable.

    18 Q. He is also a Croat?

    19 A. Yes, he is. Then all these Croat houses

    20 below my house -- I mean, that was the Croatian part of

    21 the village, and then shells started falling all over

    22 it.

    23 Q. Your house is closer to the Muslim houses; is

    24 that right?

    25 A. Right.

  10. 1 Q. And when the shells started to fall on the

    2 Croatian houses, what did you do then?

    3 A. We were in my basement, about 28 of us, women

    4 and children. When a shell fell on my stable, then the

    5 women and children were wondering where to go. There

    6 are some bushes leading from my house to the brook, and

    7 we realised that we had to run away.

    8 Q. Before we actually describe how you ran away,

    9 tell me, is it correct that the stables of Frano

    10 Jurcevic and Kristo Bozo, Croats, burned down around

    11 9.00?

    12 A. Yes, yes. Anto was also wounded near his

    13 house, by the shed.

    14 Q. And was he a civilian?

    15 A. Yes, he's a civilian. He's 65 years old.

    16 Q. Is it correct that around 10.00 two houses

    17 and the shed of Stipan Ramnjak, also a Croat, were

    18 burned down?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Did you see any resistance by Croatian

    21 soldiers in Poculica then?

    22 A. I couldn't get out of the basement. Only

    23 when I really had to get something from upstairs, then

    24 I would race out. I saw smoke, and I saw these houses

    25 and stables and sheds on fire, then I would run back

  11. 1 into the basement.

    2 Q. Tell me, at 11.00 what happened to the

    3 mosque?

    4 A. You know, we have these loud speakers, and

    5 when the Hodza is up there and then his prayer resounds

    6 throughout the village, you know, how they pray to God,

    7 and they were shouting from the top of the mosque,

    8 "Croats, surrender your arms. If you don't surrender

    9 your arms we're going to kill each and every one of you

    10 wherever we find you."

    11 Q. Did you see Grebenar again? What did he tell

    12 you? What were you supposed to do? What was he going

    13 to do? Would he negotiate?

    14 A. We started running away. We got down there

    15 to the brook, and -- and they were shouting that they

    16 would slaughter us. And we panicked, and we run down

    17 to the brook, and I saw Grebenar down there and he was

    18 wounded.

    19 Q. Before that, the Muslims who were assembled

    20 around the mosque, did they send Vlado Ramnjak, a Croat

    21 to you?

    22 A. He went down the road, and they told him to

    23 go down to Grebenar. "Why doesn't Grebenar come to

    24 negotiate?" And they said, "If you come back we are

    25 going to kill your wife, and your two children and also

  12. 1 your disabled brother," who was in a wheelchair.

    2 Q. What happened to Vlado Ramnjak then?

    3 A. Grebenar and Vlado were standing there, and

    4 Grebenar was wounded because a shell fell, and Vlado

    5 had to go up to -- back to his wife and children in

    6 prison.

    7 Q. And did the shell fall as they were

    8 negotiating, Vlado Ramnjak, who was sent by the army of

    9 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Commander Grebenar? Did

    10 the shell fall at that moment?

    11 A. I don't know. I'm sure it did fall as soon

    12 as Vlado ran away and the other one went down to the

    13 brook.

    14 Q. About 3.00 p.m., did you see some men,

    15 wearing black, going down from the mosque, coming down

    16 from the mosque?

    17 A. I went out to take my documents from the

    18 upper floor and take them down to the basement if we

    19 had to flee, to have my documents with me. I saw about

    20 150 metres towards the school, everything was black.

    21 Lots of people wearing black uniforms, and they had

    22 rifles, and they had some sort of scarves, and they

    23 were coming towards us and we had to flee.

    24 Q. Did you flee in the direction of that red

    25 arrow down by the brook, towards Dubravica?

  13. 1 A. Yes. There's a stream below my house and we

    2 went downstream to Krizancevo Selo.

    3 Q. Tell us, please, how many civilians fled and

    4 soldiers?

    5 A. Well, about 80 children -- about 100

    6 perhaps. There were lots of children as well.

    7 Q. And what happened to you when you were

    8 fleeing downstream? Were you shelled? Did they shoot

    9 at you?

    10 A. There was shelling all over the place, and

    11 one shell fell by my barn, by my shed, and I took up a

    12 child, a 17-month-old child, and its mother took up

    13 her -- one of her children who was of school age and a

    14 second child who was three years old, and we were down

    15 by the stream when the shells began to fall. They fell

    16 everywhere. I looked up, I raised my head to see where

    17 a shell would be falling, and I fell down, and the

    18 child that I was carrying fell down and it broke its

    19 arm. It was all I could do to get to Krizancevo Selo.

    20 Q. Did you have the feeling that they were

    21 shooting at you civilians who were trying to flee by

    22 the stream?

    23 A. Yes, there was shelling at us. They would --

    24 the shells would fall in front us or behind us as we

    25 were escaping.

  14. 1 Q. Tell us, did you hear them taking prisoners

    2 from your village, and did you hear that they were

    3 taken away?

    4 A. When we got to Krizancevo Selo, and when we

    5 said, "Where's this man and where's the other man," and

    6 they would tell us they had all been arrested and taken

    7 prisoner.

    8 Q. After Krizancevo Selo, where did you go after

    9 that?

    10 A. On the 23rd I went to Vitez. A Serb gave me

    11 an apartment. He worked with my son, and he called my

    12 son to come to his apartment, that he would give up his

    13 apartment and take him in, give him accommodation.

    14 Q. When you got to Dubravica, Krizancevo Selo,

    15 Vitez, all these places, which are very near, did you

    16 and the other people talk about what had happened? Did

    17 you tell the citizens there how the Muslims attacked

    18 you?

    19 A. Well, yes, I did tell these stories but

    20 nobody believed me until they had seen the child with

    21 the broken arm, and his arm was put in plaster, and

    22 then they began to believe us, that they had been, in

    23 fact, shooting at us.

    24 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, please, something

    25 about the Croat houses, the Croat houses in Poculica.

  15. 1 What happened to them?

    2 A. They were all set fire to and they were

    3 shelled. Everything was destroyed.

    4 Q. Were you in your own house -- did you visit

    5 your own house after these events?

    6 A. Yes, a month and a half ago.

    7 Q. And who did you find in your house?

    8 A. There's an Askic living there, and Sljivcica

    9 and his wife. When I went into my house and said,

    10 "Good morning," she said, "Good morning," and I said,

    11 "I've just come to see what there is left in my

    12 house." She said to me, "There's nothing belonging to

    13 you here. Everything has been destroyed. There's

    14 nothing." I just said, "I know that everything in the

    15 house belongs to me. You are sleeping on my couch.

    16 That belongs to me."

    17 And when I went on the 11th for the Sesvete

    18 celebration, there was nothing in the house, just one

    19 couch and one stove. Everything had been taken away.

    20 Q. Is there anybody else living in your house?

    21 A. Just this man and a woman.

    22 Q. Are they Muslims?

    23 A. Yes. He's a number from Donja Veceriska.

    24 His name is Askic.

    25 Q. You're a widow. Did you go to pay your

  16. 1 respects to your husband at the cemetery? What

    2 happened?

    3 A. Well, when the cease-fire was signed we went

    4 to the cemetery. Which is located in the Muslim

    5 village. Our cemetery is up above, at a height. When

    6 we went to the cemetery there was, no tombstones were

    7 standing. They had all been knocked down, the chapel

    8 had been knocked down, the fence had been destroyed.

    9 It was a terrible sight.

    10 Q. Did you rebuild something in the cemetery?

    11 A. Well, one month later we went back to the

    12 cemetery to try and repair the fence and cover the

    13 chapel, and we just lined up the tombstones. The

    14 stones that had fallen, we set them right. We found

    15 that everything had been shelled, little bits and

    16 pieces were shattered all over the place.

    17 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. We

    18 have finished. We would like to tender in evidence

    19 this map which shows Poculica, the arrow showing the

    20 direction in which the people fled, and Vitez.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mrs. Papic, you're

    22 going to be asked some questions by the Office of the

    23 Prosecutor. Now, that's a normal procedure. I'm sure

    24 they explained this to you.

    25 Mr. Harmon.

  17. 1 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:

    2 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Papic, my name is Mark

    3 Harmon. I'm with the Prosecutor's office. To my right

    4 is Mr. Andrew Cayley, and to his right is Mr. Gregory

    5 Kehoe. I'm going to ask you just a few questions.

    6 First of all, Mrs. Papic, could you describe

    7 for me, in a little more detail, your village. I

    8 understand it was a mixed village with Croats and

    9 Muslims living in the village. Is that correct?

    10 A. Yes, it is.

    11 Q. And how many people lived in your village?

    12 A. About 100, with their families, altogether.

    13 About 100 people altogether. Men, and women and so

    14 forth. There were not many of us Croats, about a

    15 hundred, with their families, together with the

    16 families.

    17 Q. And the 100 families, was that 100 Croat and

    18 Muslim families or was that just 100 Croat families?

    19 A. One hundred Croat families. Prnjavor and

    20 Poculica, that was together. Vrhovine, that was in

    21 Poculica. That was much -- they were much bigger.

    22 Q. Now, you had a Muslim neighbour that you told

    23 us about by the name of Smajo; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. We were divided by

    25 a fence.

  18. 1 Q. And was the Croat population in the village

    2 of Poculica one that was mixed together with the Muslim

    3 population or were the two ethnic groups segregated in

    4 distinct parts of the village?

    5 A. No, they were all together, Prnjavor,

    6 Vrhovine and Poculica, all together, and Poculica. And

    7 the Croat village was just from my house down there,

    8 there were about 50 houses, 50 Croat houses. From my

    9 house, up above they were Croats and Muslims. So there

    10 would be one Croat house, one Muslim house, one Croat

    11 house, one Muslim house, or across the road there would

    12 be the Muslims there, and this side the Croats. And

    13 this was how it was right up to the mosque. Up by the

    14 mosque there was a fence again which separated the

    15 Croats by the mosque. The road went towards the mosque

    16 and this is where the Croats were, the mosque was

    17 here. And then, once again, there were Muslims further

    18 on.

    19 Q. So what I understand from your testimony,

    20 Mrs. Papic, in some areas the Croats and the Muslims

    21 were mixed together, and in some areas of Poculica the

    22 Muslims lived separately in their own ethnic group, and

    23 in --

    24 A. Yes, yes.

    25 Q. I'm sorry, let me finish. And in some areas

  19. 1 the Croats had a distinct and definable area where they

    2 lived separately; is that correct?

    3 A. Yes, they all lived together, it was just

    4 that they were up by the mosque, both the Croats and

    5 the Muslims, up by the mosque. Whereas down below,

    6 from my house going lower were the Croat houses, but we

    7 were all together. And the municipality was the

    8 municipality of Prnjavor, that was our municipality,

    9 and it was a Muslim local community, Croats and Muslims

    10 alike.

    11 Q. Now, Mrs. Papic, in terms of area, in terms

    12 of size of the village of Poculica, was it a big

    13 village or was it a very small village?

    14 A. Well, a sort of medium size village, not a

    15 very big village.

    16 Q. Did it cover much area? Was it spread out?

    17 Were the houses and residences concentrated together in

    18 what may be a village centre?

    19 A. Well, fences. Here you have the road, then

    20 the Muslim houses, then the Croat houses. It was all

    21 very near, nearby.

    22 Q. Okay.

    23 A. Divided by these fences.

    24 Q. Let me turn your attention to the morning of

    25 the 16th of April, and you testified that you received

  20. 1 a phone call from your sister who called you and asked

    2 you if you had heard any shooting, and your testimony

    3 was that you answered, "No, I haven't heard any

    4 shooting." Did I understand your testimony correctly?

    5 A. I heard shooting, but I didn't know where the

    6 shooting was taking place, but I just heard it. Then I

    7 went up to fetch my mother and bring her down to us,

    8 because she lived alone in her own house.

    9 Q. Did you go fetch your mother, or did one of

    10 your relatives, one of your children go get your

    11 mother?

    12 A. No, I went to get my mother. She wasn't far

    13 off, she was 50 metres away from me. I went to get my

    14 mother.

    15 Q. And approximately what time was that on the

    16 morning of the 16th of April?

    17 A. I don't know, I can't give you the exact

    18 time, I didn't look at clock. I can't really tell you

    19 exactly.

    20 Q. Now, once you and your mother returned to

    21 your house, did you and the other people in your

    22 neighbourhood go down into your basement?

    23 A. Yes. There were 28 of us with the children

    24 that we had taken in from across the road when it

    25 started, when the shooting started. I called out to

  21. 1 these women and I said, "Come down to my basement,"

    2 because Smajo was close by and all of his family were

    3 all close together.

    4 So I called out to the them and said, "Let's

    5 take cover in my basement, because I have a good

    6 basement."

    7 Q. Now, you went into your basement sometime in

    8 the morning hours; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes, that's right, it was morning.

    10 Q. And did you remain in your basement until

    11 approximately 3.00 in the afternoon when you left your

    12 house?

    13 A. Yes, we were in the basement all the time.

    14 But I just had to go from the basement up into the

    15 upper floor, and I was able to see Poculica burn, and

    16 the shelling, and I had to flee to avoid being hit.

    17 But when my barn was hit, well, then, that was a real

    18 commotion and we decided to flee.

    19 Q. Let me ask you, Mrs. Papic, while you were in

    20 your house, you went upstairs at least on one occasion,

    21 did you leave the basement on more than one occasion to

    22 look outside and see what was happening in your

    23 village? Or was it only on one occasion that you did

    24 that?

    25 A. I went five or six times, I had to go

  22. 1 upstairs because everything was upstairs. I had my

    2 larder upstairs, and I had to give, go and get food for

    3 the children and give the children some food to eat

    4 down below. They -- I had to give the children milk,

    5 so I had to look for the bottles in the floor upstairs.

    6 Q. And when you would go upstairs, would you

    7 conduct your particular searches for the milk and

    8 searches for the food, would you do that quickly and

    9 then return to the basement quickly in order to avoid

    10 being hurt?

    11 A. Quite certainly, because there was shelling,

    12 so you have to flee.

    13 Q. Now, I take it I'm correct, Mrs. Papic, you

    14 were never in the military and have no experience in

    15 military matters, do you?

    16 A. No, no, not at all. I'm a housewife. I've

    17 got nothing to do with all that.

    18 Q. Now, were you, while you were in your house

    19 on the 16th of April, and in the basement for the

    20 majority of the time, were you able to determine where

    21 the shells that were being fired on the village of

    22 Poculica were coming from?

    23 A. Tolovici were over here, and they were

    24 Muslims. Here we have Vrhovine and Prnjavor, once

    25 again Muslim. Sljivcica was over there, Muslims,

  23. 1 again, only Muslims, Muslim inhabitants. And

    2 Vjetrenice behind us, and it came from all sides.

    3 So when a shell is being launched, you can't

    4 see exactly where it's coming from. But when we were

    5 in the stream, in the brook, from Sljivcica we could

    6 hear shots coming from Sljivcica, and then the shell

    7 would fall in the stream where we were.

    8 Q. Mrs. Papic, I will come to the time when you

    9 were in the stream in a few minutes in my questions.

    10 But while you were in the house in your basement, were

    11 you able to determine where the shells were coming

    12 from?

    13 A. I would go out and hear it coming from

    14 Sljivcica, from up above towards the Croat village on

    15 the houses.

    16 Q. Were you aware, Mrs. Papic, that on the

    17 morning of the 16th HVO forces were shelling the

    18 village of Poculica from the town of Vitez?

    19 A. No. A shell cannot come from Vitez, it can

    20 come from Sljivcica, Sljivcica is nearer.

    21 Q. Were you aware that the HVO was shelling the

    22 village of Poculica on the morning of the 16th with a

    23 40 millimetre anti-aircraft gun and a six barrel

    24 multi-rocket launcher from Gradina?

    25 A. I don't know about that, I don't know

  24. 1 anything about that.

    2 Q. Were you aware that on the 18th of April the

    3 HVO was shelling the village of Poculica?

    4 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: I think you already asked that

    6 question, Mr. Harmon. The witness already answered.

    7 MR. HARMON:

    8 Q. Now, after you left your basement you and the

    9 other people who had been in your basement fled down a

    10 creek and you went in the direction of Krizancevo Selo;

    11 is that correct?

    12 A. Krizancevo Selo, Krizanac Krizancevo Selo.

    13 Q. And that was on the 16th of April, 1993.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. After the 16th of April, 1993, when was the

    16 first time that you returned to Poculica?

    17 A. We returned when the cease-fire had been

    18 signed. As soon as the cease-fire had been signed we

    19 went to the cemetery, to our cemetery. The cease-fire

    20 had been signed, and I didn't go after that until there

    21 was a mass said at the cemetery. That was one year

    22 later.

    23 Q. So when you say the cease-fire, are you

    24 talking about when the war between the Muslims and the

    25 Croats ended? Is that what you're talking about?

  25. 1 A. Yes, yes, that's it.

    2 Q. And it's at that point in time when you saw

    3 some of the houses that had belonged to the Croats had

    4 been damaged or destroyed; is that right?

    5 A. I saw immediately when we began to flee. I

    6 saw this immediately, because it was a hill and you can

    7 see the Croats houses, and I could see the Croat houses

    8 burning down below as soon as we started to flee.

    9 Q. Did you see any Muslim houses burning or any

    10 Muslim barns burning?

    11 A. They were higher up above. There was a

    12 plateau, there was a plain down below, so you could see

    13 this part while we were fleeing.

    14 Q. And could you see the Muslim houses burning

    15 and the Muslim barns burning as well?

    16 A. They were up above, here, so you can't

    17 really. They are up above, so you can't really, so

    18 you're going down the slope and come to the Croat

    19 villages, and so you could see these when we were

    20 fleeing.

    21 Q. But in your village, when you left,

    22 Mrs. Papic, did you see any Muslim houses or barns on

    23 fire or damaged?

    24 A. I couldn't have been there, as I've just told

    25 you. I couldn't have gone out to see this, because

  26. 1 they were up above me; whereas, Asim and the others

    2 near me, that remained intact.

    3 Q. Now, was your house that you returned to a

    4 year later, was your house destroyed by some force,

    5 either shells or fire, or was it intact?

    6 A. The shed was destroyed, the doors were taken

    7 away, the bathroom had been destroyed, there was no

    8 water. That's it, when I went into the house, that's

    9 what I found.

    10 Q. But your house was standing; is that correct?

    11 A. Yes, the house was standing, and the man went

    12 to live there.

    13 Q. And in your immediate neighbourhood where you

    14 lived, Mrs. Papic, after you returned, after the

    15 cease-fire, were there other Croat houses that were

    16 still standing in your village?

    17 A. Yes, there were. There was my brother's

    18 house, two of them. This was a Muslim one, and up

    19 above a Croat house. Two brothers, Muslims, on this

    20 side, and all the houses were standing and people were

    21 living in them.

    22 Q. So not all the houses that belonged to the

    23 Croats in Poculica were damaged or destroyed as a

    24 result of the conflict on the 16th?

    25 A. No, no. Yes, not all of them. The upper

  27. 1 part remained, the Croats and the Muslims, those

    2 houses, except for Stipan Ramnjak, his house burned

    3 down, both his houses and the barn. Only his house was

    4 burned between the Muslims and Croats. Whereas, from

    5 my house down the slope, which is only the Croat

    6 houses, those houses were shelled.

    7 Q. Now, did you know somebody by the name of

    8 Redzo Bektas? Pardon my pronunciation. Is that a name

    9 that's familiar to you? Let me try pronouncing it

    10 again. Do you know a family by the name of Bektas?

    11 A. No, we had a Bektas, but he is in Vitez, and

    12 he was in the local community in Prnjavor. But he went

    13 away a long time ago.

    14 So we had this municipality with the Croats

    15 and Muslims and that was that particular Bektas.

    16 Q. Mrs. Papic, you and your friends who were in

    17 the basement fled, but were there other Croats who

    18 remained in Poculica after the 16th of April?

    19 A. I don't know. Those who were in prison

    20 stayed, but those who could run, when they realised

    21 what was going on, there was shooting and they were

    22 shooting all over, everybody escaped down to the

    23 stream. And we got up to Krizancevo Selo at 6.00 only

    24 from the stream down there.

    25 Q. You said there were 28 people in your group

  28. 1 who fled, and earlier in your testimony you said there

    2 were about 100 Croat families who lived in the village

    3 of Poculica.

    4 A. Twenty-eight women and children in my

    5 basement. Women and children in my basement, I did not

    6 say anything else.

    7 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you said there

    8 were about 100 families, Croat families who lived in

    9 your village. Did some of those Croats from Poculica

    10 remain in Poculica after the 16th of April?

    11 A. Those who were imprisoned. Half of them

    12 stayed on, and the other half fled.

    13 Q. After they were released from prison, did

    14 they return to Poculica?

    15 A. No, not a single one has returned to

    16 Poculica.

    17 Q. Mrs. Papic, thank you very much.

    18 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions,

    19 Mr. President and Your Honours.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, do you want to

    21 exercise your right of redirect? Do you have

    22 additional questions.

    23 MR. NOBILO: Two or three, very briefly.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: I was thinking about the break,

    25 let me consult with my colleagues.

  29. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Go ahead, Mr. Nobilo, try to

    2 finish before the break

    3 Re-examined by Mr. Nobilo:

    4 Q. Mrs. Papic, I would like to put two or three

    5 questions to you. Tell us, please, after the war broke

    6 out between the Muslims and the Croats, apart from

    7 those who were arrested, did a single Croat stay in

    8 Poculica?

    9 A. Only those who were killed, I'm talking about

    10 Bozo Kristo, I don't know of anyone else who stayed on.

    11 Q. And those who were arrested, did they go back

    12 to Poculica or did they go back to Vitez?

    13 A. Afterwards, after the exchange they came to

    14 Vitez.

    15 Q. And tell us, Mrs. Papic, later on, when you

    16 came to Poculica, did you see a single Muslim house

    17 that had been set on fire?

    18 A. No, not a single one. Where we passed, not a

    19 single Muslim house had been set on fire or shelled,

    20 not a single shell had fallen on any one of them.

    21 Q. And tell me, that day when the shelling took

    22 place and when you fled after that, did a single shell

    23 fall on Muslim houses, on the Muslim part of the

    24 village?

    25 A. They are up above me and I couldn't see up

  30. 1 there. Because as I was running away, this is the way

    2 my house is, this is where the creek is, and from here,

    3 I could see our Croat houses over there, you know. And

    4 as I was running, I would turn around and I would see

    5 the smoke coming from the Croat houses down there, and

    6 I saw they were on fire and they had been shelled, and

    7 I saw these shells too.

    8 Q. And could you hear any explosions around the

    9 Muslim part of the village, around the mosque? Were

    10 there explosions or not?

    11 A. No, I don't know. I don't know. I don't

    12 know.

    13 Q. You said that the purely Croatian part of the

    14 village was fully destroyed and in the mixed part of

    15 the village the Croat houses remained standing except

    16 for the two or three that you mentioned. Who lives in

    17 these Croat houses that were intact that are in the

    18 mixed part of the Poculica village?

    19 A. All of them are Muslims. My brother's two

    20 houses. All over it is Muslims living there now, and

    21 in my house there are Muslims living.

    22 Q. And my last question. Please tell the Court

    23 whether a single Croat has returned to Poculica until

    24 this present day, now that you're testifying before

    25 this Court.

  31. 1 A. No, we weren't even told to come back, and

    2 they weren't asking us to come back, either.

    3 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President, I have

    4 finished.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad you had a question?

    6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.

    7 Good morning, Mrs. Papic. The Prosecutor,

    8 Mr. Mark Harmon, asked you if you knew if your village

    9 of Poculica was shelled from Vitez on the morning of

    10 the 16th of April, 1993, and it was also shelled from

    11 Gradina; do you know anything about that, about where

    12 the shelling came from? Did any people tell you, or

    13 are you just guessing where it came from?

    14 A. Nobody told us, but it cannot reach from

    15 Vitez to Poculica. I mean, you cannot shell from

    16 Vitez. It's only from Tolovici that are nearby, and

    17 you can hear it, also, when it is fired from Tolovici.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: So, you don't think the

    19 Prosecutor was right when he told you that the shelling

    20 was from Vitez and from Gradina, you refuse this?

    21 A. Of course I refuse it. You can't, Sljivcica

    22 was nearer, so when they shoot from Sljivcica we can

    23 hear it in the basement. We know exactly that it is

    24 going to fall here. And where is Vitez? I mean, way

    25 out.

  32. 1 JUDGE RIAD: Poculica was in a Muslim area,

    2 all the villages around it were Muslims?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: And how far was it from Vitez

    5 and from Gradina?

    6 A. That I don't know. You're asking me, but I

    7 don't know.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: The villages around you, since

    9 the villages are close, were they also shelled; or was

    10 it just your village which was shelled?

    11 A. I know that they were in Sljivcica and that

    12 they were shelling only Poculica. The Muslims were at

    13 Sljivcica, and then over there at Tolovici and

    14 Vrhovine, and they're nearby, and you can hear all of

    15 it coming from there, and you can hear and feel this

    16 fall on the Croatian houses in the Croatian village.

    17 JUDGE RIAD: The other villages around you

    18 which are close, were they also shelled, the other

    19 Muslim villages?

    20 A. I don't know, you can't see that. When

    21 there's only hills around, you can't see the houses.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: So you didn't see anything

    23 around you?

    24 A. No, nothing.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

  33. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Shahabuddeen.

    2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: On the morning did you

    3 have breakfast?

    4 A. No way. Nobody had a thing.

    5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: When your daughter rang

    6 you and asked you if you had heard any shooting, was

    7 that before or after the time when you would normally

    8 have breakfast?

    9 A. She woke me up, because I like to sleep late

    10 in the morning. I haven't got a thing to do, so I just

    11 sleep in late. And she woke me up saying, "Get up,

    12 can't you hear the shooting?" And as I got up, then I

    13 heard the shooting. And she told me to go to my

    14 mother's so my mother could stay with me.

    15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Was it daylight or was

    16 it dark?

    17 A. It was daylight, 8.00, I think, I'm sure. It

    18 was daylight.

    19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: When you went to Vitez,

    20 can you tell us, what were the conditions there? Was

    21 anything very special going on in or around Vitez?

    22 A. I don't know. I don't know, I didn't really

    23 pay any attention. I mean, I got this apartment,

    24 naturally, and I tried to settle in.

    25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You didn't see any

  34. 1 shooting happening at Vitez?

    2 A. I didn't, then, not then.

    3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you very much.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: We're almost finished

    5 Mrs. Papic. Is your village far away from Ahmici?

    6 A. Yes, yes, our village is far away from

    7 Ahmici.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Have you heard about what

    9 happened in Ahmici?

    10 A. We didn't hear a thing then, when we were

    11 running away. We were in creeks and basements and we

    12 didn't hear a thing about it.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Well, perhaps not on that date,

    14 but later on, later on, did you hear about what had

    15 happened in Ahmici?

    16 A. I didn't, I didn't go out. I didn't go

    17 anywhere. I was just trying to settle in.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: So you've never heard about

    19 Ahmici and about the massacres that took place there?

    20 A. I didn't have any interest, you know. I

    21 didn't go out, I didn't have a TV set or a radio,

    22 nothing. I didn't have a thing when I became a

    23 refugee, and I couldn't find out anything.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: I have one last question. You

    25 really don't have to answer it.

  35. 1 What made you come to testify in this trial

    2 of an accused that you don't really know? What was the

    3 reason that you came?

    4 If you don't want to answer that question,

    5 don't answer.

    6 I haven't heard your answer, I'm sorry.

    7 A. No. I -- nothing really made me. I mean, I

    8 just wanted to say what had happened to us.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.

    10 All right. We thank you for having come

    11 here, for having taken such a long trip to tell us

    12 about what happened in your village. You're now going

    13 to be escorted out of the courtroom. The Judges are

    14 going to withdraw and we'll take a break until noon,

    15 and you can go home. I hope that you will find some

    16 peace when you get back.

    17 The Court stands adjourned. We will start

    18 again at noon.

    19 --- Recess taken at 11.37 a.m.

    20 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: We'll now resume the hearing.

    22 Have the accused brought in.

    23 (The accused entered court)

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo.

    25 MR. NOBILO: We're waiting for the witness.

  36. 1 The witness is Slavko Katava.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I'm looking for the

    3 summary. Here it is, the summary in French.

    4 Registrar, if you would give the English copies to my

    5 colleagues.

    6 All right. We'll have Mr. Slavko Katava

    7 brought in, who is not covered by protective measures.

    8 You don't have the date of birth?

    9 MR. HAYMAN: We have it and we've given it to

    10 the Prosecutor this morning, Mr. President, just a few

    11 moments ago.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: That's fine

    13 (The witness entered court)

    14 MR. HAYMAN: -- of September, 1956.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Katava, please give us your

    16 name, your given names, your date and place of birth,

    17 your profession and your current residence. After

    18 that, you will take an oath and then you may be

    19 seated.

    20 All right. Mr. Katava, go ahead, please. We

    21 are listening to you.

    22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, my name is Slavko

    23 Katava. I was born in 1956 in Donja Polje, the

    24 municipality of Busovaca. I reside in Busovaca. I am

    25 a policeman by profession. That's it.

  37. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Now, you will take

    2 your oath. You will read the oath in your own

    3 language, the oath which has been given to you.

    4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    5 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    6 truth.


    8 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Katava, you may

    9 be seated. You're going to answer questions that you

    10 will be asked. You've agreed to participate in the

    11 trial of the -- trial of General Blaskic, who is in

    12 this courtroom.

    13 You will first -- I'm sure it's been

    14 explained to you, first answer Mr. Nobilo's questions.

    15 Is that right? Yes. Then you will be questioned by

    16 the Office of the Prosecutor, and the Judges' questions

    17 will complete your testimony.

    18 Mr. Nobilo, you may proceed.

    19 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    20 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:

    21 Q. Mr. Katava, explain to the court, please,

    22 what schools you have completed and when.

    23 A. Your Honour, I went to Hesa (phoen) Primary

    24 School in Busovaca. After that I went to the police

    25 school in Sarajevo, and I have been working in the

  38. 1 police force since 1974. I worked in the police

    2 station of Teslic. I worked there up until 1977, when

    3 I was transferred to the police station in Busovaca

    4 where I work today.

    5 Q. Tell us, please, you have been a policeman

    6 throughout your career?

    7 A. Yes. Since I finished school I've been a

    8 policeman.

    9 Q. How many years is that?

    10 A. It is 26 years now.

    11 Q. Starting out from the disintegration of

    12 Yugoslavia in 1991 and the first democratic elections,

    13 can you explain to the Trial Chamber what the

    14 organisation of the police force in Busovaca was like?

    15 First of all, within the frameworks of what Ministry,

    16 and what was the transformation that took place later

    17 on?

    18 A. After the first democratic elections were

    19 held, the police force was headed by the party people,

    20 the people of the victorious party, and the police

    21 still functioned in the old setup, that is to say, as a

    22 police station for Busovaca with its security services

    23 in Zenica and the Internal Affairs Ministry at the

    24 level of the republic.

    25 Q. After that, can you tell us when the police

  39. 1 force was reorganised, and when the police force was

    2 organised on -- in a new way in the -- and the police

    3 station in Busovaca?

    4 A. That time -- at the time it was obvious that

    5 the police force was not able to function as it had

    6 hitherto. There were divisions. The Muslims went to

    7 Muslim policemen, whereas the Croat population would

    8 contact the Croat police, and so the police department

    9 in Travnik was set up for an area covering the

    10 majority -- a majority Croat population.

    11 Q. So that your immediate superiors were the

    12 police department in Travnik. Can you tell us, at the

    13 police department in Travnik, what police stations

    14 belonged to the Travnik headquarters?

    15 A. The police stations of Fojnica, Kresevo,

    16 Kiseljak, Busovaca, Vitez, Novi Travnik, Travnik,

    17 Bugojno, Gorni Vakuf, and I think Jajce.

    18 Q. Did this reorganisation coincide with the

    19 introduction of the HVO civilian authorities in

    20 Herceg-Bosnia?

    21 A. Yes, I think it coincided with that.

    22 Q. Today you and your police station are once

    23 again part of a united federal police force which

    24 includes Muslims and Croats alike; is that correct?

    25 A. Yes, that is correct. We have a federal

  40. 1 police force for the Central Bosnia region.

    2 Q. If we go back to 1992/1993, how were the

    3 appointments made? Who appointed, for example, the

    4 commander, the Chief of Police? Who determined who

    5 this would be; who would be a policeman and who

    6 wouldn't?

    7 A. Well, it was the municipal authorities or

    8 parties which put forward names, nominated individuals,

    9 and the Minister for Internal Affairs in Mostar made

    10 the ultimate decision as to appointments.

    11 Q. All the institutions that you enumerated, the

    12 police station and the police department, the Ministry

    13 for Internal Affairs and the government, of course, of

    14 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosnia, were the

    15 civilian organs of power and authority for the Croatian

    16 Community of Herceg-Bosna?

    17 A. Yes, they were.

    18 Q. On the basis of what laws did you function in

    19 1992 and 1993?

    20 A. We worked according to the old laws of the

    21 Social Republic of Bosniz-Herzegovina, which we took

    22 over all the regulations and official gazettes for the

    23 area, the territory of Herceg-Bosnia.

    24 Q. So apart from the formal changes that took

    25 place, are you saying that no criminal laws and

  41. 1 criminal codes changed in actual fact?

    2 A. That's right. We worked according to the

    3 codes that we took over when taking over the documents.

    4 Q. If from this perspective today, you look back

    5 to 1992 and 1993 and you compare these years to the

    6 years before the war in Bosnia in 1989, 1990, 1991, you

    7 were a policeman during that time, and you are once

    8 again a policeman, and if you compare them to the

    9 present day, what would you say? Was there an increase

    10 in criminality in the war years compared to peacetime?

    11 A. The system functioned and the police was able

    12 to perform its duties, but then criminality in all its

    13 forms showed a marked increase. Today criminality is

    14 going down because the institutions are beginning to

    15 function again.

    16 Q. Tell us, what were the causes of the increase

    17 in criminality in 1993, because those are the years

    18 that we're interested in.

    19 A. One of the main causes of criminality was

    20 that the institutions of the system had broken down.

    21 The institutions were not able to function properly.

    22 There were no inspections, there were no courts of law

    23 functioning properly. Everything was in disarray and

    24 had ceased to function, and this was a breeding ground

    25 for crime.

  42. 1 Q. Tell us, please, whether there were other

    2 causes. What about weapons and the population? How

    3 could a civilian, before the war, come by weapons of

    4 any kind and what happened during the war?

    5 A. Well, Your Honour, before the war there was

    6 set procedure, legal procedure which had to be followed

    7 in some -- if an individual wanted to carry weapons.

    8 He would have to have a certificate, he would have to

    9 have a medical certificate and his weapon had to be

    10 registered with the police force. But in 1992 and

    11 1993, people began to arm themselves through various

    12 channels illegally, by underground means, and this was

    13 not a controlled process, and it took place en masse,

    14 because the war was imminent.

    15 Q. Before the war, if somebody were to purchase

    16 weapons without the necessary certificates and permits,

    17 the police would take these -- confiscate these

    18 permits. Why in 1992 and 1993 did the police turn a

    19 blind eye to what was going on? It did not take away

    20 and confiscate the weapons?

    21 A. Because it was already a mass process, and

    22 the authorities could not come by the necessary weapons

    23 they needed and arm the people. So in a situation of

    24 that kind, the police could not confiscate weapons and

    25 it turned a blind eye to the fact that people were

  43. 1 beginning to stock up on weapons.

    2 Q. And the reason was the war, because people

    3 felt they needed to defend themselves?

    4 A. Yes, that's right. People would sell their

    5 cow to buy a rifle if they thought this was necessary.

    6 Q. You said that the authorities did not

    7 confiscate weapons. Does that mean the weapons were

    8 not confiscated either from the Croats or from the

    9 Muslims?

    10 A. Yes, that's right. We didn't take them away

    11 from Muslims or Croats.

    12 Q. Tell the Court, please, what happened to the

    13 smuggling activities and illegal trading of arms, and

    14 how was this linked to the rise of crime?

    15 A. Everything ceased to function. There were

    16 not -- we did not have the necessary consumer goods in

    17 our shops, so that smuggling became rampant. Goods

    18 were being bought and sold, people were making a lot of

    19 money buying goods cheaply and selling them at

    20 astronomical prices, and so they began to reap economic

    21 power, and crime was on the rise.

    22 Q. So these people who resorted to smuggling and

    23 reaped benefits from this, they were criminals, in

    24 fact, they had acted contrary to the law?

    25 A. Yes. They had already armed themselves.

  44. 1 They were criminals, individuals or groups, and they

    2 had weapons and they committed various crimes.

    3 Q. As a small police station did you have any

    4 aid and assistance with regard to professionals or in

    5 any other way from the central police authorities

    6 either from Sarajevo or Bosnia-Herzegovina, or from the

    7 police force in Mostar?

    8 A. No. We had no professional help whatsoever.

    9 Quite simply, we were left to fend for ourselves as a

    10 police force. We had no material or professional

    11 assistance.

    12 Q. And the central authorities, did that

    13 function properly or did the municipality begin to act

    14 like a State within a State?

    15 A. The central authorities ceased to function.

    16 The system was disrupted. There were barriers. In

    17 Central Bosnia each municipality looked after itself

    18 and was a small State in its own right.

    19 Q. There is always a certain amount of civic

    20 discipline to a greater or lesser extent. How did the

    21 citizens, how did the inhabitants react when they found

    22 that their institutions were not functioning properly?

    23 A. What happened was that the citizens

    24 themselves began to alter their conduct, and people who

    25 had never engaged in crime suddenly became criminals.

  45. 1 They had weapons, and the circumstances that prevailed

    2 influenced people to change their behaviour and

    3 contact. They were frightened for their lives. They

    4 engaged in crime, looting and so on.

    5 Q. Let us now take a look at what the situation

    6 was like in the police force. At one point the police

    7 differentiated -- the Muslims left. Can you tell us

    8 how many Muslims left, how many Croats remained and

    9 what the reason for all this was?

    10 A. Well, the police split up at that moment when

    11 the Muslim policemen, together with their leadership,

    12 moved to the territory where the Muslims were the

    13 majority population. That was in Kacuni. At that time

    14 we were half, half, approximately, and 58 per cent of

    15 us, the Croats, remained in the police station in

    16 Busovaca, 50 per cent of the Muslims went to Kacuni.

    17 Q. And from that day on, in the territory of the

    18 municipality of Busovaca, there have been two police

    19 stations; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes, that's correct. There is a police

    21 station in Busovaca with Croats and a police station in

    22 Kacuni with the Muslims.

    23 Q. So you were halved as policemen in Busovaca.

    24 In addition to police work, are you in charge of some

    25 military matters?

  46. 1 A. Yes. Most of our work was channelled towards

    2 defence, and most of the policemen wanted to defend the

    3 frontlines and made themselves available.

    4 Q. Tell me, what about trained policemen and the

    5 technical equipment you needed and the financial

    6 resources you needed. What was the situation like in

    7 your police station?

    8 A. The situation in the police station in

    9 Busovaca was very bad. There were only three or four

    10 of us who were trained policemen, who had completed the

    11 relevant schools, and the rest had no education related

    12 to that.

    13 Q. And what about vehicles, gasoline?

    14 A. We did not have any material resources. We

    15 had one vehicle, but we didn't have any gasoline for

    16 it, so we tried to make do.

    17 Q. And what about expertise? For example, the

    18 institutes for studying blood traces and fingerprints,

    19 et cetera, did you have anything of that sort in the

    20 territory of Busovaca?

    21 A. No. All of these are small police stations,

    22 and even if such expertise, resources did exist, this

    23 was only in Zenica or in the Ministry in Sarajevo. We

    24 did not have a lab, and we didn't even have the

    25 simplest devices for taking fingerprints let alone

  47. 1 anything else.

    2 Q. Did you have someone who could conduct a

    3 post-mortem and in this way help in terms of finding

    4 perpetrators of criminal offences?

    5 A. No. We did not have a forensic expert of

    6 this nature. The only such expert was in Zenica, and

    7 he was not available to us then. This man still works

    8 as a forensic expert, and his services are still called

    9 upon, but he couldn't do a thing for us at that time.

    10 This is Mr. Turkic.

    11 Q. But he was not accessible to you because of

    12 the war, right?

    13 A. That's right.

    14 Q. And from this time distance and on the basis

    15 of your overall experience, if you analyse the crime

    16 that you explained to us that became rampant, how could

    17 you qualify it? Was it ethnically coloured, so to

    18 speak? Was it aimed against one national group only?

    19 Did the criminals come from one national group only?

    20 Could you tell us something more about that?

    21 A. Your Honours, all criminal offences are

    22 against victims irrespective of ethnicity. Crimes were

    23 committed against Croats and Muslims.

    24 Q. Are you asserting that crime had its own

    25 logic of crime irrespective of interethnic relations?

  48. 1 A. Yes, yes. According to its own law, it would

    2 have nothing to do with ethnicity. Victims were not

    3 specially selected.

    4 Q. At one time you introduced a curfew in

    5 Busovaca. Why was this done?

    6 A. A curfew was introduced in order to prevent

    7 crime and to control the movement of criminals, and for

    8 security and safety reasons in general.

    9 Q. Also, your police station introduced a

    10 certain procedure in respect of leaving Busovaca and

    11 coming back to Busovaca. Could you explain to the

    12 Court what this procedure was, if a citizen,

    13 irrespective of his ethnicity, wished to leave

    14 Busovaca?

    15 A. Any citizen who wanted to leave Busovaca

    16 would come to the police station and make statement to

    17 an authorised official stating the reasons why he

    18 wished to leave Busovaca, and then he was asked whether

    19 he was being mistreated by someone, whether he wants to

    20 leave the area of Busovaca of his own volition or for

    21 other reasons. Precisely with a view to preventing the

    22 mistreatment of citizens by individuals and groups.

    23 Q. To the best your recollection when and under

    24 what circumstances did the largest number of citizens

    25 of Muslim ethnicity leave Busovaca?

  49. 1 A. Well, three or four days before the conflict

    2 broke out in January in 1993. Most of them, 90 per

    3 cent of the Muslim women and children left Busovaca and

    4 went to Zenica or to Kacuni to compact Muslim

    5 territories, so to speak, the majority of Muslim

    6 territory.

    7 Q. Did somebody expel them then or did they

    8 leave voluntarily? If they left voluntarily, what was

    9 the reason for that, to the best of your knowledge?

    10 A. Nobody had made them do it. Only women and

    11 children left, and military-aged men stayed on in

    12 Busovaca. I think that they had received instructions

    13 from the Muslim leadership, which was not in Busovaca

    14 at all. They were already in Kacuni and they were

    15 instructed to remove their wives and children.

    16 Q. Why, why withdraw them three or four days

    17 before the war?

    18 A. Probably they were planning an attack, I

    19 don't know, probably for that reason. Because rumour

    20 had it that Busovaca would be attacked by the Mujahedin

    21 and the people from Krajina.

    22 Q. After this mass exodus from Busovaca, you say

    23 90 per cent of the Muslim population had left before

    24 the Muslims attacked in January 1993. After that, were

    25 there any other big waves of departures of Muslims, or

  50. 1 was it all on an individual basis mostly?

    2 A. It was mostly on an individual basis, there

    3 were no more mass exoduses.

    4 Q. If we disregard these 90 per cent who left,

    5 these civilians who left before the war broke out in

    6 Busovaca, what was the reason for which part of these

    7 remaining 10 per cent left during these remaining few

    8 months, I mean, the first few months of 1993, why?

    9 A. Well, part of them probably left out of fear,

    10 because they were afraid. Also, Croats came from other

    11 areas because they were afraid there, areas that were

    12 under Muslim control. And some left of their own

    13 initiative, just like that. People were probably

    14 afraid.

    15 Q. You say the people were afraid. Was this

    16 fear realistic? Was this well-founded fear? Did they

    17 have reasons for this?

    18 A. No, they were equally protected, like all

    19 citizens in Busovaca, as regards the police.

    20 Q. And you said that they had equal protection

    21 on the part of police, but was this protection

    22 sufficient? Was there violence and crime in spite of

    23 that directed against the Muslims?

    24 A. Well, there were criminal acts that were

    25 committed against Muslims and the Croats, and within

  51. 1 the scope of our responsibilities we took action, we

    2 tried to prevent this and we tried to protect people to

    3 the best of our ability.

    4 Q. Mr. Katava, could you please describe to the

    5 Court what the procedure was, for example, when your

    6 police station would receive a report saying that an

    7 explosive had gone off somewhere or, for example, a

    8 fire breaks out somewhere? What was the procedure

    9 involved when you received information of this kind?

    10 A. Well, the usual professional procedure. In a

    11 police station this is a regular thing, and the officer

    12 on duty receives this information and then an

    13 investigation team is set up which goes and makes an

    14 inquest, and then a file is made and then operations

    15 take place in order to find the perpetrator.

    16 If an NN perpetrator, an unknown perpetrator

    17 is involved, there is, nevertheless, a file opened, and

    18 one always had the obligation to do something about

    19 this file and to find the perpetrators.

    20 Q. And you would also submit a report to the

    21 Prosecutor; right?

    22 A. Yes, we would submit reports to the

    23 Prosecutor, both if the perpetrator was known or

    24 unknown, that was our duty.

    25 Q. Tell us, in your practice do you know of a

  52. 1 single case that your police station received

    2 information on some violence, on a criminal act or

    3 something, and would not act if you heard that the

    4 victim was a Muslim?

    5 A. This did not happen. We always intervened

    6 the same way, regardless of whether this was a Muslim

    7 or a Croat.

    8 Q. Thank you.

    9 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, now we would like

    10 to distribute a set of documents.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: This is D443.

    12 MR. HAYMAN: The last Defence Exhibit was

    13 449, I thought, the map used by the last witness, 449.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: No, there was an error, the

    15 interpreter made a mistake, it was 442. That was the

    16 map.

    17 MR. HAYMAN: Very well, we premarked this as

    18 450. Could this be premarked as 450 and we will fill

    19 in 453 (sic) through 449 in the coming days, with the

    20 Court's permission?

    21 THE REGISTRAR: All right, it could be 450

    22 and use the other numbers later. No problem with

    23 that.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: No objection? If that's going

    25 to make things easier.

  53. 1 MR. NOBILO: I have these for the

    2 translators, two groups, French and English.

    3 Mr. President, before we move on to this set,

    4 I would like to explain how this file has been

    5 organised.

    6 We have chapters that are marked with letters

    7 A through K. In chapter A, there are crimes against

    8 Muslims. Chapter B are documents that speak about

    9 criminal offences against Croats. In chapter C are,

    10 that is the police file related to damages to the

    11 mosque in Busovaca. In D are documents speaking of

    12 Muslims as perpetrators of criminal offences. In

    13 chapter E -- too fast?

    14 The next one is F, are statements of Muslims

    15 who are leaving Busovaca. G includes statements made

    16 by Croats who came to Busovaca. H are reports of the

    17 Busovaca police station. And I is information about

    18 Croats who fled to Busovaca from territories controlled

    19 by the BH army. In K are destroyed Croat houses in

    20 Busovaca on the territory under the control of the army

    21 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    22 And now, I'm going to -- also, every document

    23 in its Croatian version is marked with number 1 through

    24 98, that is the last document. And in this way we wish

    25 to mark the area with a letter, and the numbers marked

  54. 1 specific documents. Before we move on to these

    2 documents, I wish to ask our witness the following.

    3 Q. Did you see all these documents and did you

    4 confirm to me that all these documents were written in

    5 the police station in Busovaca, except those related to

    6 J and K, referring to the houses that were destroyed?

    7 A. Yes, I saw these documents. These documents

    8 were signed by my colleagues and I know the text

    9 myself. Some of them I wrote myself, and the others I

    10 can recognise by the signatures and the institution

    11 involved.

    12 Q. Thank you.

    13 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we are not going

    14 to go through all these documents, they speak for

    15 themselves, but we have one problem, and that is under

    16 H, we have reports of the police station in Busovaca.

    17 This summer we had these reports translated, but due to

    18 certain circumstances we did not obtain translations.

    19 So I suggest that we, nevertheless, use these

    20 reports, they are very important. We see these

    21 documents condensed in this report, so I would just

    22 like to read a few sentences from each report which I

    23 consider to be relevant. If you agree with this, all

    24 other documents are translated.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: I don't know if there is an

  55. 1 objection from the Prosecutor. Mr. Cayley? I know

    2 that is a lot of documents for you.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: The whole file is a very large

    4 file, Mr. President, and the documents that my learned

    5 friend is referring to which he states have been

    6 translated are only provided in the Bosnian Croat

    7 language, so neither I nor my colleagues can actually

    8 read any of them. It will make cross-examination of

    9 the witness extremely difficult.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, excuse me. Perhaps

    11 I misinterpreted what Mr. Nobilo said. If I understood

    12 correctly, all the documents have been translated into

    13 English, at least, except for the documents from the

    14 binder H, for which there is neither French nor an

    15 English version. Did I interpret you correctly?

    16 Your difficulty, Mr. Cayley, stems from the

    17 fact that, first of all, it's a very large file, and in

    18 addition, in that file there are statements that are in

    19 Serbo-Croat.

    20 As regards the first point, Mr. Cayley, this

    21 is not the first time that one of the parties is faced

    22 with a big file. All right. Mr. Hayman is pulling out

    23 456, I know, I know, I was sure you were going to pull

    24 that one out.

    25 MR. HAYMAN: With no witness, Mr. President.

  56. 1 The Prosecutor produced no witness, no witness, when

    2 they tendered exhibits 406 and 456. So I don't --

    3 well, I'm still listening to my learned friend, I'll

    4 put it that way.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, you see, I know you

    6 so well I can predict what you're going to say. Here I

    7 am with my colleagues in order to be sure that the

    8 conduct of the proceedings is just and equitable.

    9 This is not the first time that either of the

    10 parties has given many documents to the other party,

    11 and I'm sure that if there is a translation you will

    12 try to do as best you can. And if one day you have to,

    13 you need to bring the witness back, you can do so.

    14 But for the time being, I think it is the

    15 second question which causes some problem, that is,

    16 there are documents that are not translated either into

    17 French or English. Let me point out that the one who

    18 should complain the most is the presiding Judge, and I

    19 complain very rarely, I protest very rarely.

    20 I think we are going to do our best. As

    21 regards the Croatian documents, perhaps it would not be

    22 enough to read only a few lines, Mr. Nobilo. Perhaps

    23 that would not be sufficient. All right, we'll see.

    24 Perhaps you should read the document and we have a

    25 sight translation for it. Mr. Cayley?

  57. 1 MR. CAYLEY: One last point, Mr. President.

    2 If we're going to go ahead with these documents and

    3 with this witness, then the Prosecutor would wish to

    4 reserve their right to call the witness back to be

    5 cross-examined on these documents when we have a

    6 translation.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Well, that's exactly what I had

    8 suggested. Mr. Hayman?

    9 MR. HAYMAN: I think there is a distinction

    10 to be drawn, Mr. President. If the witness testifies

    11 about a document, a document that isn't translated into

    12 English or French, and the Prosecutor feels he has been

    13 denied a reasonable ability to cross-examine, that

    14 seems to me to be one thing.

    15 But if the Prosecutor is saying that these

    16 are voluminous documents and so he should not, he has a

    17 right to bring the witness back to cross-examine him as

    18 to documents that the witness doesn't testify about,

    19 then I think that would be asymmetrical with respect to

    20 the situation the Defence found itself in when the

    21 Prosecutor produced voluminous documents, represented

    22 that they got them all from a government, even though

    23 they aren't documents authored by that government, we

    24 raised the question, "Is there a right of

    25 cross-examination" and the Court said, and we respect

  58. 1 the ruling, but the ruling was these documents come

    2 from a source identified by the Prosecutor, end of

    3 procedure. Documents admitted, no cross-examination as

    4 to those documents.

    5 So we didn't have to bring this witness to

    6 present these records from the Busovaca civil police

    7 office. We could have simply tendered them, just as

    8 the Prosecutor did in his case, and I ask that that be

    9 kept in mind within this debate and discussion.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: At that time you did not ask

    11 that the witness be brought back. First of all, there

    12 was no witness. There were documents that were

    13 provided; isn't that correct? There was no witness, so

    14 that's true, you had documents.

    15 And then there was an interruption of a few

    16 days, and you had the time to prepare yourselves.

    17 Mr. Harmon and Mr. Cayley simply had to present

    18 documents and he gave you a file. It was simply a

    19 submission of documents.

    20 The difference -- I'm just trying to say to

    21 you that we Judges aren't practising any kind of

    22 discriminatory measures. We are faced with a somewhat

    23 new situation. We have a witness and documents.

    24 In the documents contained in 456, I don't

    25 know how many documents there were, the question was

  59. 1 somewhat different, there was no witness. The

    2 Prosecutor had spent a day, or it was an afternoon,

    3 when there were no witnesses to present, and he spent

    4 that time presenting the documents, and they were then

    5 given to the Trial Chamber.

    6 Today the situation is different. That is,

    7 the witness is here, has been here, will be here for a

    8 few hours, and you're presenting documents. It is not

    9 at all a question of the Judges acting in a

    10 discriminatory fashion. We're simply trying to find

    11 the best way to move forward.

    12 There's another solution possible, if you

    13 like, we might interrupt the testimony now and have the

    14 witness come back tomorrow afternoon, and then during

    15 that time Mr. Cayley will have the time to familiarise

    16 himself with the documents. What are you trying to

    17 tell me, Mr. Registrar?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: This is for information as

    19 regards the presentation of documents 456 and 457 of

    20 the Prosecutor. You have the day when it was

    21 presented, that is in July.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: So you see, Mr. Hayman, you can

    23 be reassured, thanks to the diligence of our registrar,

    24 I note the comments that were made on Exhibits 456 and

    25 457. Let me read them to you, as I have them on this

  60. 1 document from the registrar.

    2 The Prosecutor's pointing out he has no

    3 witness but wants to present documents further to Rule

    4 85. Mr. Hayman is raising objections to the documents

    5 being tendered. The presiding Judge suggests that they

    6 be accepted, subject to the Defence raising objections

    7 later on. The Prosecutor then presents the documents,

    8 and at the end of the presentation the Prosecutor says

    9 he has no more witnesses for the week, and it went from

    10 1500 hours until 1640 hours. That was the transcript.

    11 What I suggest is that there are two ways of

    12 working. We can either postpone the witness's

    13 testimony until tomorrow, which would mean you have

    14 another witness, or we will not count this hearing as

    15 your time, that is, the end of this morning --

    16 actually, the morning is almost over. Or we will try

    17 to move forward, and if the Prosecutor can try to do

    18 his best with the documents, as you did with the

    19 version in English, then he will only work with the

    20 Serbo-Croatian version.

    21 What do you think, Mr. Cayley? Are you

    22 prepared to work that way?

    23 MR. CAYLEY: The point I would make, Mr.

    24 President, is there is a distinction between Exhibit

    25 456 and the position with this exhibit. Firstly, all

  61. 1 of those documents had been translated into a language

    2 which Mr. Hayman could understand. I cannot understand

    3 any of these documents, because they are in

    4 Serbo-Croat.

    5 Furthermore, I would imagine that all of

    6 these documents are going to be admitted into evidence,

    7 and not just a select few. So even documents that are

    8 not referred to by the witness will be admitted into

    9 evidence and I would imagine will be referred to by

    10 Mr. Hayman or Mr. Nobilo in their closing argument. So

    11 we will not even have an opportunity to address these

    12 documents in the immediate cross-examination of this

    13 witness.

    14 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, my learned friend

    15 is chasing his own tail. Exhibits 406, 456 and 457

    16 were admitted in their entirety, every document was

    17 admitted by Your Honours. So be it, we respect that

    18 ruling, I'm not taking issue with it. But those were

    19 admitted without producing a witness for

    20 cross-examination.

    21 MR. CAYLEY: I apologise for interrupting my

    22 learned friend, but the fact is the Defence was given

    23 the opportunity to object to any of those documents.

    24 And, Mr. President, you have just read out exactly what

    25 was said at the time. They haven't done so yet. They

  62. 1 may do so in the future. But they were given the

    2 opportunity to object to the admission of any of it.

    3 MR. HAYMAN: We did object, Mr. President,

    4 that's what you read. We objected and the Court said

    5 no, these will be admitted. We preserved our

    6 objection, that is in the record. I'm flabbergasted

    7 that the Prosecutor maintains otherwise.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: But you reserve the right to

    9 contest the documents, Mr. Hayman, that's what I

    10 meant. Don't use part of what's in the transcript

    11 without using the other part. You reserved the right

    12 to object at any time you want, all the way to the end

    13 of the trial.

    14 MR. HAYMAN: We did two things, Mr.

    15 President. We objected to the process, lack of

    16 authentication, because no witness was produced,

    17 particularly based on the nature of the records that

    18 they were producing. Records. For example, purporting

    19 to be HVO records and saying the source for those were

    20 the BH government, not the author or creator of those

    21 documents. So we objected first to the process. That

    22 was overruled, we respect that, we're not seeking to

    23 relitigate that.

    24 And, secondly, because they were hundreds and

    25 hundreds of documents, we reserved the right to make

  63. 1 document specific, or individualised objections in

    2 time. We did those two things.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that's exactly what I

    4 meant. At least you recognise that, Mr. Hayman. You

    5 do admit you had the right to make objections in the

    6 future. That was the right that was reserved for you.

    7 At any point, all the way to the end of the trial, the

    8 Judges can accept any objection that you make about a

    9 document, as long as you bring proof for your

    10 objection.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: What is the analogy to the

    12 current situation, Defence Exhibit 450? The analogy

    13 is, Mr. President, that the Prosecutor certainly can

    14 reserve the right to make individual document specific

    15 objections to these documents, because there are 98

    16 documents, we don't have any difficulty with that.

    17 We would object to interrupting the

    18 examination of this witness at this time so that the

    19 Prosecutor can read every document, study every

    20 document before conducting his cross-examination.

    21 Because what could we have done? If those are the

    22 rules of this Court, we could have completed our

    23 examination of this witness, sent him home, and then

    24 admitted Defence Exhibit 450 after he had gone, under

    25 the rules and procedures that this Court has adopted.

  64. 1 We aren't going to do that, we didn't do

    2 that, because we want the Court to have the benefit of

    3 a live witness to answer any and all questions and

    4 concerns the Court has. But let's not penalise the

    5 Defence, please, vis-a-vis the situation the Prosecutor

    6 has put in foregoing this extra --

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, Mr. Hayman, all I

    8 said was that I would like to offer some possible

    9 solutions. I don't ordinarily take decisions whenever

    10 a sensitive question is asked. This is a panel of

    11 Judges, so I try to consult with my colleagues, I try

    12 to find solutions.

    13 I only said that, first of all, the question

    14 was not raised in the same way for 456 and 457.

    15 In the second place, the reading of the

    16 transcript by the registrar has shown us there was no

    17 witness and you had all the time you needed, and you

    18 still have all your time to contest those documents.

    19 Thirdly, I am trying, with my colleagues, to

    20 take into account an objection raised in good faith by

    21 Mr. Cayley, that is, that he wants to conduct a

    22 cross-examination properly in respect of these

    23 documents. I allowed myself to say there were not 50

    24 solutions but only two. We're trying to make do with

    25 what we have, otherwise we will take some more time.

  65. 1 Mr. Cayley, I think there is some confusion

    2 here. Almost all the documents have been translated

    3 into English; isn't that true, Mr. Cayley? Hence, the

    4 translation service did that, the official service of

    5 the Tribunal; isn't that correct?

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's right.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Where is the lack of confidence

    8 here? I think that this document 1, A-1 has been

    9 translated, so you can work, you can begin to

    10 cross-examine the witness on that document, can you

    11 not? Thank you, Judge Shahabuddeen.

    12 The only problem is for the file H. And it

    13 is true that I can understand that the objection would

    14 be raised, I myself would raise objections, as would my

    15 colleagues, that it is in Serbo-Croatian, perhaps the

    16 entire document should be read, calling upon the

    17 objectivity of the interpreters, who have always been

    18 objective.

    19 All these documents have been translated by

    20 the official translation service of the Tribunal,

    21 Mr. Cayley, you have no objection to that, so you can

    22 work, you can conduct your cross-examination.

    23 Of course, he is going to need time, but we

    24 all need time. Thank you, Judge Riad. But we also

    25 have to try to show some good will. We don't have a

  66. 1 great deal of time, time is slipping away from all of

    2 us.

    3 Mr. Cayley, can you work? And if you cannot

    4 work on a document, then you will ask for some time and

    5 you will be given that time. But it seems to me that

    6 as regards the documents, this is not the first time

    7 all of us are, not the Presiding Judge, but the

    8 hundreds of times ever since this trial has started I

    9 have been working with sight translations from English,

    10 and my colleagues helped me. If I were to make an

    11 objection to that, I think it would take three years to

    12 complete this trial.

    13 Unless you have a specific difficulty,

    14 present it, but otherwise I think you can conduct your

    15 cross-examination with the documents you have. If you

    16 have any reservations you can express them, and express

    17 them in your final argument.

    18 We still have file H. Mr. Nobilo, we will

    19 see which of those documents you use and which ones

    20 have to be translated. In fact, are there really so

    21 many of them? Well, yes, there are, there are a great

    22 many.

    23 As regards file H, Mr. Nobilo, could you not

    24 tell us right now which documents you are going to use,

    25 and couldn't we have them sent to the translation

  67. 1 service to be translated urgently?

    2 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, these documents

    3 are, in fact, reports according to the different

    4 months. They are the police station in Busovaca and in

    5 my part I have made notes of what we would tender in

    6 evidence. So I have used a yellow marker to indicate

    7 these several lines in every document. This is an

    8 example of a document, for example. It won't be much,

    9 only what we consider to be relevant and that we are

    10 offering as evidence.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I don't think that

    12 the opposing party nor the Judges can accept that.

    13 When we have one of the official languages of the

    14 Tribunal, if you underscore what you want to say, all

    15 right, we are old enough and professional enough to see

    16 what documents you are emphasising, because it's in

    17 your interest. Perhaps there is a document in the

    18 interest of the other party.

    19 You speak Serbo-Croat, that's one of your

    20 national characteristics, but you can't say with this

    21 witness, "Do you agree that line 8 means this, and that

    22 it supports the interests of your client," we can't do

    23 it that way. What I suggest, Mr. Nobilo, is that you

    24 commit yourself that by the end of the trial the entire

    25 H file will be translated at least into English, I

  68. 1 should say in French as well, but at least in English.

    2 And then, if you already know, it's now 1.00, if you

    3 already know which documents you want to use during

    4 your direct examination, then you must tell us

    5 immediately which ones they are, and I will ask for an

    6 urgent translation at least into English. You see, I'm

    7 not even demanding that it be done into French, but at

    8 least English, so that what you're underscoring can be

    9 challenged possibly by the opposing party.

    10 Mr. Cayley?

    11 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, just to make the

    12 position absolutely clear. The tabs on this, going

    13 from A to K, don't really reveal the full nature of the

    14 problem. The documents, as my learned friend pointed

    15 out, are numbered 1 to 98. There are 98 documents in

    16 here, and of those 98 documents, documents 52 to 98 are

    17 the ones which I think, bar two, are not translated.

    18 So, in essence, half of this exhibit is in a language

    19 which the Prosecutor cannot understand.

    20 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may, Your

    21 Honour, I think that I have a solution. In the

    22 examination-in-chief, I am going to ask the witness

    23 questions only on facts relating to J and K, the

    24 documents from J to K. The other documents I shall ask

    25 him to authenticate, but I'm not going to question him

  69. 1 on the documents. We're going to tender the documents

    2 as our colleagues have done so. We're going to tender

    3 the documents, the witness will identify them, and the

    4 examination-in-chief will concern documents J and K.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley.

    6 MR. CAYLEY: In the sense that the documents

    7 are simply going to be admitted into evidence without

    8 any ability to ask a witness any question about that, I

    9 would simply make that comment. There is a witness

    10 here for these documents. We chose not to call a

    11 witness in the particular interest which Mr. Hayman is

    12 speaking about, and I would ask the Judges to bear that

    13 in mind when they come to consider documents 52 to 98,

    14 that they have simply been admitted into evidence

    15 without any questions being asked of the witness in

    16 respect of them.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, would you accept

    18 the Prosecutor's suggestion that for all the documents

    19 from A to G -- rather, H, that all of those documents

    20 be filed as the Prosecutor did for 456 and 457? Why

    21 don't you think about that while I consult with my

    22 colleagues.

    23 MR. NOBILO: Yes.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: I think that -- well, you want

    25 to ask a question, Mr. Nobilo? Perhaps that question

  70. 1 will determine the definitive position.

    2 Do you agree to filing, without asking

    3 anything of the witness, documents A through I, which

    4 were filed as was the file 456, 57, aside from the

    5 witness, outside of the witness?

    6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we accept that,

    7 but we should just like to add that you accept that the

    8 witness has authenticated these documents as police

    9 documents, so we're not going to ask any questions and

    10 we accept your proposal.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley?

    12 MR. CAYLEY: In respect, Mr. President, of

    13 the documents in Tab H, while they may be authenticated

    14 by the witness and identified -- and identified as

    15 being that which they represent themselves to be, we

    16 would have to reserve our position on those documents

    17 simply because we have no ability to make any comment

    18 on them because we can't read them.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. That's a valid position.

    20 All right. If I've understood things

    21 correctly, the first decision as regards Tabs A through

    22 G, A through G, it is understood that you will file

    23 them without any reference to the witness, and you

    24 will -- as did the Prosecutor for 456 and 457. I see

    25 that Mr. Hayman does not agree. All right. You're

  71. 1 going to force me to take an authoritarian decision,

    2 and that will be definitive decision that the Judges

    3 will have to evaluate. We have to find a situation out

    4 of this. We're trying to have three different kinds of

    5 decisions.

    6 From A to G, that will be filed the way the

    7 Prosecutor did with 456. You don't want that

    8 solution. I see.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: The difference, Mr. President,

    10 was the witness has authenticated those documents

    11 police records, and there's no reason for the Court to

    12 simply take them as blind records that the Defence

    13 represents are from the Busovaca police station.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.

    15 MR. HAYMAN: That's the distinction. But

    16 that is a distinction from Exhibits 456, 456 and 457 of

    17 the Prosecutor. That's the only distinction we're

    18 proposing.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Therefore, we agree,

    20 Mr. Hayman. We will then give the Prosecutor the

    21 possibility of having the witness come back. I'm

    22 sorry.

    23 I would have preferred for you to accept the

    24 fact that A through G be in the same situation as it

    25 was for the case for the file 456. Now, as regards H,

  72. 1 for which there is no translation, that we will have

    2 the witness authenticate, and then you will conduct

    3 your direct-examination on J through K. You can

    4 decide, but that's your option, and the Trial Chamber

    5 will make its own evaluation.

    6 Let me repeat them. A to G, you set that

    7 aside, you isolate them, and you present them as a

    8 binder which is independent of the witness. If you

    9 want to refer it back to the witness, I think at that

    10 point you have to agree that we're getting into a

    11 discussion, and in that case, we see that there's a

    12 difference between them and 456, because 456 no witness

    13 had been brought in by the Prosecutor.

    14 Either you isolate the A through G inclusive,

    15 you isolate those documents, and you file them with the

    16 Trial Chamber as the Prosecutor did for 456. Isolate

    17 it.

    18 Then, as regards those documents under H, we

    19 take advantage of the fact that the witness is in the

    20 courtroom to authenticate them, because he's the only

    21 one that can do so, reserving the possibility, of

    22 course, for the Prosecutor, once the documents have

    23 been translated, to make any comments that it considers

    24 relevant.

    25 The third point, as regards J and K, you will

  73. 1 question your witness on those documents, that is J and

    2 K. That seems to be the wise path to take after having

    3 consulted with my colleagues, but this does not mean --

    4 you cannot say that you haven't had -- we don't want

    5 you to say that you weren't given the opportunity to

    6 respond, so go ahead, Mr. Hayman.

    7 MR. HAYMAN: They're only different in this

    8 respect, Mr. President and Your Honours, the witness

    9 has already authenticated categories A through G.

    10 Those documents have been translated into English, a

    11 language that the Prosecutor team can understand. They

    12 can cross-examine the witness on authentication as to A

    13 through G, and we propose that they do. If they have

    14 no questions, fine, but then the Court has the benefit

    15 of that higher level of certainty that the documents in

    16 categories A through G are indeed authentic, and that

    17 is what we seek. Thank you.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: They can't do it today. We

    19 might have to ask the witness to come back.

    20 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, we're going to

    21 break soon for an hour and a half lunch break. We're

    22 then going to break at the end of the day, and tomorrow

    23 morning we're not this session. If they are

    24 representing by the end of the day they can't

    25 cross-examine the witness as to authenticity on 40 or

  74. 1 50 documents, so it be. He can come back

    2 tomorrow at -- I think we're in session tomorrow at

    3 2.00, and if they need that extra time, so it be. We

    4 want the Court to have a higher level of certainty in

    5 these records.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: Can we ask him to come back in

    7 10 days, two weeks?

    8 MR. HAYMAN: Then I think the Court should

    9 exercise its discretion as to what is reasonable under

    10 the circumstances, and I would submit that would be an

    11 abuse.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: That's what we always do.

    13 Please don't argue about a question which hasn't even

    14 been raised.

    15 Mr. Cayley? Before we have to take a break,

    16 because the interpreters are tired, as are the Judges,

    17 I am you sure are as well. Mr. Cayley?

    18 MR. CAYLEY: I'll be brief, Mr. President. I

    19 am in full agreement with the proposal that you have

    20 made. I believe that we should be given the

    21 opportunity to cross-examine this witness on another

    22 occasion on the documents that are contained within the

    23 binder H. There may be matters that are of particular

    24 interest to the Prosecutor, and we have no idea of what

    25 the content of half, 50 per cent, of the documents are

  75. 1 within this file.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Well, we're not meeting

    3 tomorrow morning. Do you think that by tomorrow

    4 afternoon you would conduct your cross-examination on

    5 documents A through G? Would that be enough time for

    6 you to conduct your cross-examination to prevent the

    7 witness from coming back? I'm trying to find another

    8 solution. Let me re-explain myself.

    9 This afternoon there will be the

    10 direct-examination on documents J and K, setting aside

    11 documents H for the time being. They have to be

    12 translated, which would allow the cross-examination --

    13 the Prosecutor to conduct his cross-examination, but

    14 they cannot be done until they've been authenticated.

    15 That's regards documents under H.

    16 As regards J and K, Mr. Nobilo will conduct

    17 the direct-examination this afternoon, and you can

    18 conduct the cross-examination this afternoon, and we

    19 will reserve for tomorrow afternoon for the

    20 cross-examination on documents A through G. You will

    21 have the time to do that, because according to

    22 Mr. Hayman, you don't have lunch, and then you won't

    23 have dinner and you won't sleep, and then you have all

    24 of tomorrow to prepare your cross-examination.

    25 Might we proceed in that manner, that there

  76. 1 be a cross-examination, and if there are any questions

    2 that have to do with documents A through G.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'm in agreement

    4 with that proposal. The only remaining matter is those

    5 documents that are contained within section H, which is

    6 almost half of the documents. So whereas I can deal

    7 with I and J, or J and K this afternoon and A through

    8 to G inclusive tomorrow afternoon, there is still the

    9 matter of 50 per cent of the documents in H. On that

    10 basis, would I like to reserve our position to call the

    11 witness back, if necessary, within 10 days time.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: I see we're making some

    13 progress.

    14 All right. The Trial Chamber's proposal has

    15 been accepted. You reserve the right to cross-examine

    16 if you want to. Perhaps you don't. So tomorrow

    17 afternoon you have the time to prepare -- by tomorrow

    18 you'll have the time to prepare yourselves for the

    19 documents under A to G. This afternoon the examination

    20 will be under J and K.

    21 You are professionals. You will be able to

    22 prepare an effective cross-examination for documents J

    23 and K. In any case, that's the Trial Chamber's

    24 decision.

    25 Now, we are left with those documents under

  77. 1 H. It's true, they are in Serbo-Croat, and, therefore,

    2 the Prosecutor will maintain the right, once the

    3 translations have arrived, I don't know how long that's

    4 going to take, but if the Prosecutor needs to do so,

    5 we'll have the witness brought back. But that's -- we

    6 haven't reached that point yet. It's now quarter

    7 after, and we will resume at 2.45 to spare the

    8 interpreters and to spare ourselves as well.

    9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

















  78. 1

    2 --- On resuming at 2.55 p.m.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: We can now resume the hearing.

    4 Have the accused brought in, please.

    5 (The accused entered court)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Have the witness brought in,

    7 please.

    8 About how much time do you expect the

    9 direct-examination to take, Mr. Nobilo?

    10 MR. NOBILO: About 15 to 20 minutes.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.

    12 (The witness entered court)

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Katava, we're going to

    14 resume now after the procedural incident which has been

    15 settled. Mr. Nobilo, proceed, please.

    16 MR. NOBILO:

    17 Q. Mr. Katava, would you turn to Defence

    18 Exhibit I? It is 450 -- I. Would you -- slowly, we're

    19 in no hurry.

    20 Take a look at document IJ96, the stamp, and

    21 it says "Niko Grubesic" as the head of the

    22 municipality. Do you recognise the document, that is

    23 to say, the stamp of the Busovaca municipality, and do

    24 you know Niko Grubesic?

    25 A. Yes, I recognise the stamp of Busovaca, and I

  79. 1 know the head of the municipality, Niko Grubesic.

    2 Q. From the document, it emanates that in --

    3 that 1.692 Croats were expelled from Busovaca, the part

    4 under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    5 This is the document from the Busovaca municipality.

    6 As far as you know, is that figure correct, and is it

    7 also correct that the Croats were expelled from these

    8 15 villages in the Busovaca municipality?

    9 A. Yes, the figure is correct, and it is also

    10 correct that the Croats were expelled from these 15

    11 villages, because those 15 villages were under majority

    12 Muslim control.

    13 MR. NOBILO: I would like to ask that another

    14 document be handed round, please. The map is the

    15 original, big map, and this is a copy. It's one

    16 document, A and B.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: The maps will be D443, 443 A

    18 and B.

    19 MR. NOBILO:

    20 Q. Mr. Katava, would you take a look at those

    21 two maps? They represent the municipality of

    22 Busovaca. Tell us, please, whether I have marked

    23 circles, according to your instructions, in the places

    24 from which the Croats were expelled. Does that map

    25 represent that fact?

  80. 1 A. Yes, the map represents the villages in the

    2 Busovaca municipality from which the Croats were

    3 expelled, and the villages have been circled on the

    4 map.

    5 Q. These villages marked with a circle, are they

    6 the same ones that are contained in the document IJ96

    7 that we mentioned a moment ago?

    8 A. Yes. The document is numbered 96.

    9 Q. Tell the Court, please -- you can put it on

    10 the ELMO or here.

    11 Tell the Court, according to your

    12 recollections and experience, whether the municipality

    13 of Busovaca -- whether more Muslims fled to Busovaca or

    14 Croats?

    15 A. Well, the facts state that from these regions

    16 within the frameworks of the municipality, more Croats

    17 were expelled than Muslims from the municipality

    18 itself, Busovaca itself.

    19 Q. Let us now move on to the next document,

    20 D450/K. It is document number 98, K.

    21 Would you look at the letter which states

    22 that these documents have been sent to me? Do you

    23 recognise the stamp and signature of Mr. Katava?

    24 A. Yes, I recognise the stamp of the

    25 municipality, and Mr. Katava is the representative for

  81. 1 the economy -- the economic section.

    2 Q. Is it also true that this document lists the

    3 names of the owners of the houses which were destroyed

    4 in the Busovaca municipality?

    5 A. Yes, that is correct. It lists the names of

    6 the owners whose houses were destroyed or damaged.

    7 Q. They were Croat owners?

    8 A. Yes, they were Croat owners from the area

    9 that we mentioned a moment ago.

    10 Q. Is it also true that 482 houses were

    11 damaged?

    12 A. Yes, that fact is correct.

    13 Q. I would now like to look at another exhibit.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: This is D444.

    15 MR. NOBILO:

    16 Q. Would you look at that photographic report,

    17 and does it represent the houses that were destroyed?

    18 A. Yes, Your Honour, this report is a report of

    19 the Gusti Grab, the houses that were destroyed in Gusti

    20 Grab and the villages inhabited by the Croats.

    21 Q. Do you know who made the photographs, who

    22 took the photographs?

    23 A. They were taken by my colleague, a policeman

    24 from the Busovaca police station.

    25 Q. At whose request?

  82. 1 A. At the request of the lawyer.

    2 MR. NOBILO: Next document, please.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: This is D445.

    4 MR. NOBILO:

    5 Q. Mr. Katava, does this represent a

    6 photographic file of the Croat houses destroyed and

    7 burned in the place of Nezirovic?

    8 A. Your Honour, these are Croat houses in the

    9 village of Nezirovic.

    10 Q. Has this photographic file been compiled in

    11 the same way as the previous one?

    12 A. Yes, this photographic file was made

    13 according to the same principle.

    14 MR. NOBILO: May I now have one more document

    15 and one more number?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Document D446.

    17 MR. NOBILO:

    18 Q. Would you take a look at this photographic

    19 file, and does it represent the Croat houses destroyed

    20 in the village of Oseliste, Busovaca municipality?

    21 A. Yes, this photographic file represents the

    22 Croat houses destroyed in the Busovaca municipality,

    23 the village of Oseliste.

    24 Q. Was that file compiled by your colleague, the

    25 policeman from the police station at Busovaca?

  83. 1 A. Yes, it was.

    2 Q. According to the information you collected in

    3 the Busovaca municipality, which houses were more

    4 destroyed, the Croat houses or the Muslim ones?

    5 A. Your Honours, the facts show that there were

    6 more Croat houses destroyed in the Busovaca

    7 municipality, a larger number than the Muslim houses.

    8 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have a

    9 videotape to show you now, representing the village of

    10 Oseliste, Gusti Grab, Bukovci and Nezirovici, all in

    11 the Busovaca municipality.

    12 I would like to make a proposal, the tape

    13 lasts 30 minutes. The witness has seen the tape, and I

    14 suggest that we show it for some 10 minutes, let's say,

    15 just to give you an impression, to give you an idea of

    16 what it looks like, and to save time we won't be

    17 showing the tape in its entirety.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: The Office of the Prosecutor,

    19 Mr. President, would like to see the whole tape before

    20 we agree for it to be admitted into evidence.

    21 MR. NOBILO: It will last 30 minutes. We

    22 have an alternative proposal, that after ten minutes of

    23 looking at it at normal speed, it shows houses, and if

    24 we speed up the tape, we will finish quicker.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Or we can also just take the

  84. 1 ten minutes and include that as the exhibit. So you

    2 could show the ten minutes which are of interest to

    3 you, give the ten minutes a number, which is the proper

    4 number for those ten minutes; is that all right?

    5 MR. NOBILO: Very well. Thank you.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: And then you be sure that this

    7 is done properly, Mr. Registrar, that is, you indicate

    8 exactly where it begins and where it ends.

    9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's possible, we can

    10 do that.

    11 MR. NOBILO: May we have the lights dimmed,

    12 please?

    13 (Videotape played)

    14 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Katava, can you identify the

    15 first village that we're looking at on the video?

    16 A. Your Honours, this is the village of

    17 Oseliste, the houses in the village of Oseliste.

    18 Q. Are those the Croat houses that you mentioned

    19 in the village of Oseliste belonging to Croats?

    20 A. Yes, those are the houses that we spoke of.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Is that the same as in the

    22 photographs?

    23 MR. NOBILO: Yes, Mr. President, they are

    24 practically identical houses, the videotape and the

    25 photo file.

  85. 1 Q. Are any Croats living in the village of

    2 Oseliste, or is it an empty village now?

    3 A. Nobody has gone back to Oseliste and the

    4 houses still look as they do on the tape, nothing has

    5 been rebuilt yet.

    6 Q. Was that your colleague who took the

    7 photographs on the tape?

    8 A. Yes, that was my friend and colleague from

    9 the police station in Busovaca.

    10 Q. And he took the photographs we saw a moment

    11 ago?

    12 A. Yes, he took those photographs.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Seems to me there was

    14 commentary with these pictures. Was it on purpose that

    15 you're not, was it on purpose that you decided not to

    16 have us hear the commentary?

    17 MR. NOBILO: No, we can't hear very well.

    18 The man is explaining which house belongs to whom. He

    19 is a local Croat, and he is explaining to his

    20 colleague, the policeman, which house belongs to whom,

    21 and took the photograph, so it's nothing particularly

    22 relevant. And the tone is poor, we can't hear well

    23 enough.

    24 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, we would like a

    25 copy with the audio tape, because I think it's

  86. 1 important if this man is identifying to whom these

    2 houses belong, we would like to hear what he is

    3 saying.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: That seems like a legitimate

    5 request to us, because it should be interesting to hear

    6 what the man has to say.

    7 MR. NOBILO: Well, no problems there. Our

    8 tape is with the technical department and they will

    9 make a copy.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Thank you.

    11 MR. NOBILO:

    12 Q. Mr. Katava, we are now coming to the village

    13 of Gusti Grab, are we not?

    14 A. Yes, this is the village of Gusti Grab.

    15 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if you agree,

    16 burned down villages are burned down villages, we just

    17 wanted you to get an impression, a general idea. So,

    18 it is not important for you to see all the burned down

    19 villages in Bosnia.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: All right, then we will give a

    21 number, I'm saying this for the technicians, for the

    22 part from the beginning to the point where we stopped

    23 it. Thank you.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D447.

    25 MR. NOBILO:

  87. 1 Q. Before we finish, we mentioned this, but

    2 perhaps we went a bit too fast and perhaps not

    3 everybody noticed it. Could you explain to the Court

    4 once again your line of hierarchy in the civilian

    5 police from the police station of Busovaca onwards, who

    6 was your superior?

    7 A. Yes, I can do this. Your Honour, the

    8 Busovaca police station was under the police department

    9 in Travnik, and through the police department to the

    10 Ministry of Internal Affairs in Mostar.

    11 Q. And that was the civilian structure of

    12 government; is that right?

    13 A. Yes, that was civilian police.

    14 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have thus

    15 concluded our direct examination. Thank you.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Would you like to cross-examine

    17 Mr. Cayley?

    18 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President,

    19 Your Honours, thank you.

    20 Examined by Mr. Cayley.

    21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Katava, my name is

    22 Cayley, I'm from the Office of the Prosecutor and these

    23 are my colleagues, Mr. Harmon and Mr. Kehoe.

    24 Now, the Defence provided me with a copy of

    25 your passport earlier in the day. Now, you are a

  88. 1 Croatian passport holder; is that correct?

    2 A. Yes, yes, Your Honours, I have a Croatian

    3 passport.

    4 Q. And you still reside in Busovaca in

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    6 A. Yes, yes, I have been living in Busovaca and

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina throughout.

    8 Q. And am I right in saying that, in fact, it is

    9 an entitlement for all people of Croatian ethnicity in

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina to apply for and possess a Croatian

    11 passport?

    12 INTERPRETER: Would the witness please speak

    13 into the microphone? The interpreters can't hear him.

    14 MR. CAYLEY:

    15 Q. Can you repeat your answer, please,

    16 Mr. Katava, because the interpreters can't hear you.

    17 A. Could you please put your question again?

    18 Q. Am I correct in saying that all persons of

    19 Croatian ethnicity within Bosnia-Herzegovina are

    20 entitled to apply for and possess a Croatian passport?

    21 A. Yes, you are right. All persons have the

    22 right to submit a request for the issuing of a

    23 passport, and all other persons from the territory of

    24 Bosnia and Herzegovina have this same right, to submit

    25 a request to be admitted into Croatian citizenship.

  89. 1 Q. What are the requirements to apply for

    2 Croatian citizenship?

    3 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this is beyond

    4 the scope of the direct examination. We have allowed

    5 our distinguished colleague to ask what kind of

    6 passport the witness had because we supplied a copy,

    7 but I think that everything else he has asked goes

    8 beyond the scope of direct examination.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: I don't quite agree with you,

    10 Mr. Nobilo. It's interesting, at least for the Judges,

    11 to know under what circumstances one can be both a

    12 citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina and have a Croatian

    13 passport.

    14 All right, Mr. Cayley, you may continue. I

    15 think this is part of the relevant material, having to

    16 do with identifying documents. Go ahead, please.

    17 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you so much, Mr.

    18 President.

    19 Q. I'm right in saying, am I not, Mr. Katava,

    20 that it is necessary for an applicant to demonstrate

    21 Croatian ethnicity in order to apply for a passport

    22 from the Republic of Croatia?

    23 A. You are not right. Your Honour, Mr. Cayley

    24 is not right as regards this question, because other

    25 people, Muslims, Serbs, et cetera are also entitled to

  90. 1 apply for a Croatian passport, I mean from Bosnia and

    2 Herzegovina, that is. Because I know people, Muslims,

    3 who have a Croatian passport, and they live in Bosnia

    4 and Herzegovina. People who are quite well-off, at

    5 that.

    6 Q. Could you name those people for me?

    7 A. Well, I remember Nijaz Orman, he owns

    8 gasoline stations in Kacuni, a territory under Muslim

    9 control, but he had a Croatian passport before I did.

    10 Q. Are you entitled to vote in elections in the

    11 Republic of Croatia?

    12 A. I don't vote in the Republic of Croatia. I

    13 vote in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    14 Q. Are there any persons of Croatian ethnicity

    15 in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina who have

    16 voted in Croatian elections?

    17 A. I don't know. I cannot answer that question.

    18 Q. You don't know the answer to that question?

    19 A. I couldn't really explain that to you.

    20 Q. Would it surprise you if I told you there

    21 were persons of Croatian ethnicity living in

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina who do vote in elections in the

    23 Republic of Croatia?

    24 A. I repeat, Your Honours, I can't really tell

    25 you anything about this. I don't know anyone who's

  91. 1 close to me, or anyone from my neighbourhood or

    2 whatever who voted there.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: I take it the witness has

    4 answered.

    5 MR. CAYLEY:

    6 Q. Are you aware that there are, in fact, 12

    7 members of the Croatian parliament who are Bosnian

    8 Croats from Bosnia-Herzegovina? Are you aware of

    9 that?

    10 A. Well, I haven't really been following

    11 parliamentary affairs and I can't give answers related

    12 to politics. I'm a policeman by profession and I'm

    13 involved in police matters.

    14 Q. So you don't read newspapers, and you don't

    15 watch television or listen to the radio, you don't

    16 follow current affairs?

    17 A. I read the newspapers, and I watch television

    18 and I listen to the radio, but only what I'm interested

    19 in. That's what I follow. That is to say, issues

    20 related to life itself and improving one's life, and a

    21 bit of sports.

    22 Q. Now, you stated in your examination-in-chief

    23 that there came a time when the police force in

    24 Busovaca split on ethnic lines, and the Muslims went to

    25 the Muslim police force and the Croats to the Croat

  92. 1 police force. Could you give the Judges a date when

    2 that took place, that event?

    3 A. Your Honours, I did say that there was an

    4 ethnic division within the police. I cannot remember

    5 the date exactly, but this was probably when the

    6 authorities of Herceg-Bosna were set up and when the

    7 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna established its

    8 government there. The Muslims did not reconcile

    9 themselves to that. They went to their own compact

    10 territory, and they established their own police with

    11 its headquarters in Kacuni.

    12 So there was a police with Croats in

    13 Busovaca, and a police and municipality with the

    14 Muslims in Kacuni.

    15 Q. What year was that?

    16 A. '92. I think the end of '92.

    17 Q. November or December of 1992?

    18 A. I'm not sure. I think it was the second half

    19 of 1992.

    20 Q. Now, I think you stated, and you've just

    21 restated that this split coincided with the

    22 introduction of the HVO civilian authorities in

    23 Busovaca. Do you recall saying that?

    24 A. Well, it coincides with that more or less.

    25 Q. And I think that was in May of 1992, wasn't

  93. 1 it, Mr. Katava?

    2 A. Well, I said the second half. Some time had

    3 gone by. The Muslims did not wish to accept the

    4 civilian authorities in Herceg-Bosna and the HVO, and

    5 that's when they left, and this was already the second

    6 half of 1992.

    7 Q. How would you describe the introduction of

    8 the HVO in Busovaca, as best as you remember in May of

    9 1992?

    10 A. Well, in specific terms, I do not quite

    11 understand your question, Your Honour.

    12 Q. Was the introduction of HVO authority in

    13 Busovaca in May of 1992 something that was agreed

    14 between all of the residents of the municipality of

    15 Busovaca?

    16 A. Authority was not only established in the

    17 municipality of Busovaca, but in all other

    18 municipalities in Central Bosnia where the Croats are

    19 majority population. The authority was set up because

    20 the system did not function. Law and order were

    21 attempted to be introduced. In my opinion, that was

    22 the reason why it was established.

    23 Q. Mr. Katava, listen very carefully to the

    24 questions that I ask you, because you've not actually

    25 answered that question that I just put to you, and I'll

  94. 1 put it to you again.

    2 Was the introduction of HVO authority in

    3 Busovaca something that was agreed upon by all of the

    4 residents regardless of ethnicity? Was it something

    5 that was agreed upon by everybody in May of 1992?

    6 A. I think that such agreement was reached and

    7 civilian authority was established by the HVO.

    8 Q. Let us take a look at an exhibit, Exhibit

    9 209. If that could be shown to the witness, please.

    10 Prosecutor's Exhibit 209. I'm sorry, 208, 2-0-8.

    11 Now, by way of introduction, Mr. Katava, this

    12 is an order from Dario Kordic, dated the 10th of May,

    13 1992. Have a look at it. This order corresponds in

    14 time with the introduction of HVO authority in

    15 Busovaca.

    16 A. I didn't understand. Did you put a question

    17 to me?

    18 Q. No, I was just explaining to you what this

    19 document constitutes. It's an order from Dario Kordic,

    20 in May of 1992, at the time of the establishment of HVO

    21 authority in Busovaca, and you will see that it is in

    22 the form of an order. Do you see that?

    23 A. So far I haven't had an opportunity to see

    24 this document.

    25 Q. Have a read of it. Take a moment to read

  95. 1 it. Have you had the opportunity to look at the

    2 document?

    3 A. Yes, I have had a look at the document, Your

    4 Honours.

    5 Q. Now, you would agree with me that this is an

    6 order which essentially places the Busovaca HVO in

    7 absolute control of the municipality of Busovaca?

    8 A. This was at the time when Serb barracks were

    9 being dissolved, Your Honours, and you can see from

    10 this document that Darko Vuleta, member of the HVO, was

    11 attacked and killed, and there are other persons who

    12 are named.

    13 So it is well known who killed Darko. That

    14 is probably why these orders were issued, to ensure the

    15 security and safety of all citizens and everyone else

    16 on the territory of Busovaca. And it did not pertain

    17 to the entire territory of the municipality of Busovaca

    18 but only the area where the Croats lived.

    19 Q. Let's address a number of sections in this

    20 order. Can you explain what is meant by paragraph 2:

    21 "The town of Busovaca is to be completely blocked from

    22 all sides"?

    23 Now, that is a military blockade, is it not,

    24 Mr. Katava?

    25 A. No. Checkpoints were supposed to be set up

  96. 1 for the purpose of security and to prevent undesirable

    2 forces and elements from coming in and from committing

    3 murders, et cetera. These were checkpoints at roads,

    4 regional roads, before one enters the town of Busovaca,

    5 actually.

    6 Q. Checkpoints set up by the HVO or joint

    7 checkpoints with the Bosnian army?

    8 A. Well, Your Honours, on the one hand were the

    9 HVO checkpoints and on the other side were the Muslim

    10 checkpoints. There's just one main road that goes out

    11 to the biggest road, so one way it went to the Croatian

    12 side and the other way to the Muslim side. So there

    13 were Croatian and Muslim checkpoints a bit further

    14 removed from one another.

    15 Q. This order is addressed to the HVO, is it

    16 not? In fact, if you look at the top you'll see,

    17 Mr. Katava, that it's addressed to the municipal

    18 headquarters of the Croatian community of

    19 Herceg-Bosna.

    20 A. To the municipal staff of Busovaca, but I

    21 cannot see that it was sent to the HVO, Your Honours.

    22 I haven't seen this.

    23 Q. Now, let me read paragraph 3 to you: "All

    24 paramilitary formations, the so-called TO, individuals

    25 and others are given the ultimatum to hand over all

  97. 1 weapons in their possession by Sunday 1200 hours or to

    2 place themselves under the HVO command, which includes

    3 the wearing of HVO insignia."

    4 Can you explain that particular clause to the

    5 Judges, please, Mr. Katava?

    6 A. Your Honours, I cannot comment on this order

    7 and these paragraphs very specifically, but I can

    8 comment on these paramilitary formations. These are

    9 actually units that were set up by the Muslim Patriotic

    10 League and the TO, the Territorial Defence

    11 headquarters, and this was taken over from the former

    12 JNA, and all of them were Muslims in these units, so I

    13 cannot really comment on the order, because I'm not

    14 competent to do so.

    15 Q. But the ultimatum was issued to Muslim army

    16 units, that's what you're saying?

    17 A. Yes. These paramilitaries, the Muslim -- the

    18 Muslim Patriotic League and the former TO headquarters

    19 as mentioned here.

    20 Q. Let's go to paragraph 8, because I think this

    21 is something that you will be more familiar with, and

    22 I'll read it: "The public security station is to be

    23 taken over and the Busovaca police station is to be

    24 established. Until the police station is established,

    25 the only institution in Busovaca in charge of law and

  98. 1 order, which will ensure that all HVO decisions are

    2 respected, is the HVO Military Police which is hereby

    3 granted overall authority."

    4 Now -- this is paragraph 8, Mr. Katava. You

    5 would agree with me that this clause states that the

    6 HVO is taking over the police station in Busovaca, and

    7 that for the time being, the Military Police of the HVO

    8 are to administer law and order in Busovaca.

    9 A. Your Honours, I said a few minutes ago that I

    10 cannot comment on this order, but I know that they

    11 didn't have anything to take over, because in the

    12 police station in Busovaca there were only Croat

    13 policemen left. We talked about this earlier on. So

    14 we stayed there and we continued performing our

    15 duties.

    16 Q. When did the Muslims leave the police force

    17 in the town of Busovaca?

    18 A. Your Honours, I cannot exactly recall the day

    19 and the date, but I think that it coincides with this,

    20 approximately at this time, that is to say, the second

    21 half of 1992.

    22 Q. So the Muslim police left the police force in

    23 Busovaca at the same time as the HVO took over the

    24 police station in Busovaca; is that your testimony?

    25 A. Your Honours, even before that, because the

  99. 1 chief of the police station in Busovaca was a Muslim,

    2 and he was elected by his party, appointed, rather, as

    3 we said. He actually took his own policemen and he

    4 took the computer from the Busovaca police station, and

    5 he established a police station in Kacuni.

    6 So they worked in a continuous and planned

    7 fashion. They left us out there on our own and we

    8 carried out our tasks on our own in town and elsewhere

    9 and they set up their own police station in Kacuni.

    10 Q. Let's move to paragraph 11. The Municipal

    11 Crisis Committee is dismissed in accordance of the

    12 orders of the HVO in the Croatian community of

    13 Herceg-Bosna and the Busovaca HVO is to take over all

    14 authority.

    15 Now, the crisis committee consisted of both

    16 Muslims and Croats, did it not, Mr. Katava?

    17 A. I cannot give an answer to that, Your

    18 Honours, because I don't know. I was not involved in

    19 such matters and I do not have the necessary degree of

    20 competence. I do not know who was on the crisis staff.

    21 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, you were a police officer in

    22 Busovaca in May of 1992; were you not?

    23 A. Yes, I was a policeman, and that is the time

    24 that we discussed.

    25 Q. Did it appear to you --

  100. 1 A. That is to say, when the institutions of the

    2 former system stopped working and when the new system

    3 was being established.

    4 Q. Did it appear to you --

    5 A. Sir, it took a bit of time. It was a chaotic

    6 time. How can I explain this to you?

    7 Q. Have you completed your answer, Mr. Katava?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did it appear to you at this time that the

    10 HVO was taking control of civilian authority in

    11 Busovaca?

    12 A. No, Your Honours, because we as the civilian

    13 police worked all the time on the protection of human

    14 lives and on the prevention of crime.

    15 Q. Mr. Katava, you didn't answer my question and

    16 I'll ask you once again. Did it appear to you on the

    17 10th of May --

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Please answer the question

    19 directly, otherwise I have to intervene. You are a

    20 witness with a rather high cultural level. If the

    21 questions aren't clear I'm the first one to say, but

    22 these are clear questions.

    23 You had an important position, so I ask that

    24 you answer specifically, and not to digress. That, of

    25 course, is to help the Judges. Thank you very much.

  101. 1 A. Yes, Your Honour, but could a specific

    2 question be put to me?

    3 JUDGE JORDA: All right, ask a very specific

    4 question, Mr. Cayley.

    5 MR. CAYLEY:

    6 Q. You were a police officer, a civic official.

    7 After the 10th of May of 1992, did it appear to you

    8 that the HVO had taken control of all civilian

    9 authority in Busovaca? If you don't know, simply say

    10 that you can't answer the question.

    11 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the question has

    12 to be very precise. When one says the HVO took over

    13 authority, there are two components of the HVO, the

    14 civilian and the military components. There is an

    15 essential difference involved.

    16 INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

    17 please.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Let the witness answer. It is

    19 a direct question, and if the witness wants to say

    20 there were two components, he can. Don't try to

    21 whisper answers to the witness. He has been asked the

    22 question three times, and we can hope to get an answer

    23 from somebody who has a position, had a position of

    24 responsibility.

    25 A. Your Honour, as far as I know, throughout

  102. 1 this time there was civilian authority of the HVO, and

    2 I worked all the time as a policeman in the police

    3 station in Busovaca.

    4 MR. CAYLEY:

    5 Q. Mr. Katava, did the HVO take full control of

    6 all of the municipal functions of government in

    7 Busovaca after the 10th of May, 1992?

    8 A. Yes, in Busovaca, but not in Kacuni and in

    9 these other places.

    10 Q. Was that with the agreement of the Muslim

    11 people of Busovaca?

    12 A. I cannot give an answer to that, Your

    13 Honours, I don't know.

    14 Q. Mr. Katava, you were a policeman in Busovaca,

    15 you must know whether or not the Muslims were in

    16 agreement with this, what was described to the Judges

    17 as a military coup in Busovaca on the 10th of May, 1992

    18 by previous Prosecution witnesses.

    19 A. Your Honour, I'm an ordinary policeman and I

    20 can tell you what I said a few minutes ago. We

    21 mentioned a few minutes ago that the Muslims would not

    22 accept HVO authority, that they set up their parallel

    23 authorities, a municipality, a police station in

    24 Kacuni. So there were two municipalities on the

    25 territory of Busovaca. I don't know how I can explain

  103. 1 this otherwise.

    2 So in Busovaca there was the Croatian

    3 component and in Kacuni was the Muslim component.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    5 Exhibit 456/95, please. Prosecutor's Exhibit 456/95.

    6 Q. Now, I'm not going to suggest that we read

    7 all of this document, Mr. Katava, but it's a document

    8 dated the 22nd of September 1992, and it is an excerpt

    9 from minutes of the meeting of Croatian Defence

    10 Councils in the municipalities of Central Bosnia held

    11 in Busovaca on the 22nd of September of 1992.

    12 There is a description in this document of

    13 the conditions of HVO governments in every

    14 municipality, and Busovaca you will find on the Fourth

    15 page, on page 4. It follows on from Gornji Vakuf.

    16 Now, it states, and I won't read all of it,

    17 "HVO authority was set up on 9 May 1992. HVO is the

    18 only authority. However, the setting up of the Muslim

    19 People's Council is a concern."

    20 Now, why is it stated in this document that

    21 the HVO is the only authority in Busovaca?

    22 A. Your Honours, we talked about that a few

    23 minutes ago. The HVO was in Busovaca and the Muslim

    24 councilmen were in Kacuni, because they established a

    25 parallel municipality in Kacuni. The only authority in

  104. 1 that territory, in the territory of Kacuni was the

    2 Muslim authority, and we talked about that a few

    3 minutes ago.

    4 Q. If you could go to, I think it's page 5 of

    5 your document, and it follows after Kresevo. I'm

    6 sorry, page 6 of your document. It states, and these

    7 are general observations noted in all municipalities,

    8 "New refugees are arriving daily, especially Muslims.

    9 This could disturb the ethnic balance in our areas.

    10 The policy should be such that our municipalities serve

    11 as transit points for Muslim refugees who should be

    12 directed to Muslim municipalities."

    13 Now, was this an observation that applied to

    14 your municipality, Mr. Katava?

    15 A. Your Honours, on the territory of Busovaca,

    16 there were Muslim and Croat refugees from Jajce.

    17 INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear

    18 the end of the statement made by the witness.

    19 A. There were Muslim and Croat refugees after

    20 the Serb aggression in Jajce. They stayed at Busovaca,

    21 however, most of the refugees from Krajina were staying

    22 in Travnik, and that is where there was a demographical

    23 imbalance, in my opinion, because most of the Muslim

    24 refugees, after the Serb aggression, fled to Travnik

    25 and to the area of Travnik, and it was overpopulated.

  105. 1 MR. CAYLEY:

    2 Q. Why was this concern being expressed at all,

    3 Mr. Katava, about an ethnic imbalance in Busovaca and

    4 other areas of Herceg-Bosna?

    5 MR. NOBILO: Objection, the witness has just

    6 said that this refers to Travnik and not to Busovaca,

    7 and therefore, I think that the question was asked

    8 incorrectly.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Can you change your question,

    10 please?

    11 MR. CAYLEY:

    12 Q. When did Jajce fall?

    13 A. I can't quite remember. I think at that

    14 time.

    15 Q. This report is dated September of 1992, Jajce

    16 fell after that date.

    17 A. Yes. I don't know, I'm not quite sure. I

    18 can't recall the date. Your Honours, it was a long

    19 time ago, I can't recall the date.

    20 Q. Jajce fell in October of 1992, Mr. Katava.

    21 Mr. Katava, listen to my question very carefully.

    22 Why was there a concern being expressed

    23 across all of the municipalities in the Croatian

    24 community of Herceg-Bosna that Muslim refugees would

    25 upset the ethnic balance?

  106. 1 A. Your Honours, probably out of fear, fear of

    2 domination, and that the Croats would be expelled.

    3 Q. So in Busovaca, at this time, the Croats

    4 seized control because they were frightened of ethnic

    5 domination by the Muslims; is that your testimony to

    6 the Court?

    7 A. I don't maintain that, claim that, but I

    8 think that that's what actually happened.

    9 Q. So your answer to that question is yes?

    10 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, let the witness

    11 answer the question. Mr. Nobilo has been suggesting a

    12 number of answers to this witness throughout the

    13 cross-examination. Let the witness answer the

    14 question. He only intervenes when it gets

    15 uncomfortable for the witness.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo is an excellent

    17 attorney.

    18 MR. NOBILO: I'm not going to suggest an

    19 answer.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: If you would please be seated

    21 Mr. Nobilo. But the Judges also are competent,

    22 although we're not trying to put anyone's competence in

    23 question.

    24 Answer Mr. Cayley's question. He was simply

    25 trying to arrive at an answer to a question which was

  107. 1 not perfectly clear. He wants to know whether, in

    2 fact, it was out of fear that Muslim refugees were

    3 afraid of the HVO parallel that had been established.

    4 You know, let's not get into dialectics. Mr. Cayley,

    5 ask the last question again.

    6 MR. CAYLEY:

    7 Q. Mr. Katava, is it correct that the HVO seized

    8 control in Busovaca because they were frightened of

    9 Muslim domination within Busovaca? Is that your

    10 testimony to the Court?

    11 A. I can't give you an exact answer, Your

    12 Honours, to that question.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, you're not very

    14 lucky, because the question was asked before and he

    15 said yes. I don't know if it's because of Mr. Nobilo's

    16 intervention that you changed your answer, but the

    17 transcript will speak for itself. We don't have to

    18 insist on this any further, Mr. Cayley.

    19 MR. CAYLEY: I will move on. I will move

    20 on.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?

    22 MR. NOBILO: Now that we have the question, I

    23 am going to make my objection and you can judge whether

    24 it was justified or not.

    25 The witness confirmed that in May 1992 there

  108. 1 was a change of authority. After that the witness

    2 confirmed that, he agreed, that is to say, that

    3 somewhere in October Jajce fell and the refugees came

    4 in. And I claim that it was a trick question when my

    5 learned colleague asks, "Is it correct that the

    6 Croatian authorities were set up because of the

    7 refugees?" Quite obviously the Croatian authority was

    8 set up before the refugees came in, and he is trying by

    9 using a trick question to discredit the witness, and

    10 the witness is not concentrating on the actual date.

    11 MR. CAYLEY: I will move on to a different

    12 question.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I think that would be the

    14 best.

    15 MR. CAYLEY:

    16 Q. Where was the legitimate government of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina based in May of 1992?

    18 A. The legitimate government was probably based,

    19 Your Honours, in Sarajevo.

    20 Q. So you would agree with me that the HVO was

    21 an illegal government that was never recognised, one,

    22 by the government in Sarajevo, and two, by the

    23 International Community?

    24 A. Your Honours, I cannot agree that it was an

    25 illegal government, because it was set up by the

  109. 1 Croatian people. Whether it was recognised by the

    2 government in Sarajevo, I don't know.

    3 Q. So you testified before this Court that the

    4 HVO was, in fact, a legal government within

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And what is your justification for the

    8 legality of the HVO in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    9 A. The functioning of the institutions and for

    10 the protection of the Croatian people.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: I don't know if that was an

    12 interpretation problem, but I'm not sure I got what

    13 your question was, Mr. Cayley. It seems to me you

    14 wanted, you were asking about the legitimacy about the

    15 Sarajevo government; is that correct?

    16 MR. CAYLEY: I was asking the witness from

    17 where the HVO drew its legality, how it justified

    18 itself.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, all right, thank you.

    20 Yes, the witness answered that question. Move to

    21 another question, please.

    22 MR. CAYLEY:

    23 Q. Now, you stated that during your time as a

    24 police officer in Busovaca you worked from the law of

    25 the Socialist Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina.

  110. 1 A. Yes, Your Honours, I said that. But those

    2 laws were taken over by the rules and regulations and

    3 official Gazette of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    4 Q. That's right, isn't it, Mr. Katava, the

    5 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna had its own

    6 legislation in the form of the Narodni List.

    7 A. No, we worked according to the old laws, and

    8 it was these provisions that we worked, we took over

    9 the old laws because we didn't have any others.

    10 Q. The Narodni List, in effect the legislation

    11 of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, took over

    12 legislation of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina;

    13 didn't it, Mr. Katava?

    14 A. Yes, I think that is so.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: I think we're going to take a

    16 break now, Mr. Cayley, but I don't want to interrupt

    17 you.

    18 MR. CAYLEY: That's perfect, Mr. President,

    19 to take a break at this point.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: We will break until 4.30.

    21 --- Recess taken at 4.10 p.m.

    22 --- On resuming at 4.40 p.m.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: We'll have the hearing resumed

    24 now. Have the accused brought in, please.

    25 (The accused entered court)

  111. 1 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We'll now resume.

    2 Mr. Cayley, continue, please.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    4 Q. If we could very briefly return to an issue

    5 which I addressed earlier in the cross-examiantion. If

    6 the witness could be shown Exhibit 406/5, please,

    7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 406/5.

    8 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may?

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo.

    10 MR. NOBILO: The next exhibit is recognition

    11 of -- created by Franjo Tudjman. If anything is out of

    12 the focus of the examination-in-chief, then that is

    13 it.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: First, let's here the

    15 question.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'm not going to

    17 ask the witness to make a commentary on constitutional

    18 matters, but what I do wish to do is draw his attention

    19 to paragraph 2 of this document.

    20 Q. Do you have the Croatian version in front of

    21 you, Mr. Katava?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Let me read to you the section 2 of this

    24 decision. The entire decision is the recognition of

    25 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Republic of

  112. 1 Croatia, and section 2 reads: "This act of recognition

    2 grants the right to deal citizenship to members of the

    3 Croatian nation who wish such citizenship.

    4 Furthermore, we wish to propose that this issue be

    5 regulated by bilateral agreement."

    6 Now, could you explain to the Judges who the

    7 members of the Croatian nation in Bosnia-Herzegovina

    8 are, please, Mr. Katava?

    9 A. Your Honours, the Croats from Bosnia, and

    10 Croats born in Bosnia and living in Bosnia.

    11 Q. Does that include Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian

    12 Muslims living in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    13 A. It's their goodwill, Your Honours, or perhaps

    14 I didn't understand the question.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Your question was not very

    16 clear, Mr. Cayley. The sentence in the decision

    17 recognising the social republic is clear, giving the

    18 right to dual citizenship to members of the Croatian

    19 nation. What is your question?

    20 MR. CAYLEY:

    21 Q. Mr. Katava, does the recognition and granting

    22 of dual citizenship rights to members of the Croatian

    23 nation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, does that include

    24 granting those rights to Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian

    25 Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

  113. 1 A. Probably it does include them. Those who

    2 apply for dual citizenship probably can receive it. I

    3 don't know. As a policeman, as a citizen, I'm not

    4 informed of those matters.

    5 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, not only have we

    6 stepped over the questions from Bosnia-Herzegovina that

    7 this witness as a policeman could not know about, but

    8 we're also asking under what conditions the Croatian

    9 authorities issue citizenship, and our witness has

    10 never worked with the Croatian authorities in Croatia.

    11 How can he know if the possibility allows for Muslims

    12 to gain citizenship? But I know that as a lawyer, not

    13 the witness.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: You're not asking to be a

    15 witness, Mr. Nobilo, otherwise, you're going to have to

    16 take an oath yourself and then testify.

    17 MR. NOBILO: No, but, Mr. President, what I

    18 want to say is this: Systematically the Defence

    19 witness is being asked questions that are extremely

    20 broad, and this is not -- this -- an exception, this

    21 has become the rule.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: All right. This whole issue of

    23 the scope of the cross-examination, try to remove

    24 yourself from the domestic system of your traditional

    25 ways of thinking. The Judges are here in order to

  114. 1 ascertain the truth. We're not going to speak again

    2 about the rules governing examination and

    3 cross-examination, but what I agree with Mr. Nobilo

    4 about, Mr. Cayley, is that you are asking the witness

    5 to speak to things which go beyond his competence. I

    6 think I need not say anything further about that.

    7 In your final argument, Mr. Cayley, if from

    8 the what the witness said you draw conclusions, or as

    9 you might draw conclusions from the document, I

    10 wouldn't stop you, but you asked your question, the

    11 witness answered as best he could, and I would like to

    12 move on to another question.

    13 MR. CAYLEY: I'll move on, Mr. President,

    14 thank you.

    15 Q. Let's move on to a period of time,

    16 Mr. Katava, when you were, I think, an eyewitness to

    17 events. Now, you stated in your examination-in-chief

    18 that three or four days before conflict broke out in

    19 Busovaca, 90 per cent of the Muslim population left the

    20 town. Do you recall stating that?

    21 A. Yes, Your Honours. I remember saying

    22 approximately 90 per cent, in my own estimation,

    23 because all the women and children left then and all

    24 the elderly people.

    25 Q. Can you tell the Court, as a police officer,

  115. 1 the events that occurred in the town of Busovaca on the

    2 20th and 21st of January, 1993?

    3 A. Your Honours, I cannot recall the exact date,

    4 but if you tell me which events, then perhaps I'll be

    5 able to tell you about them.

    6 Q. Let me refresh your memory. Isn't it the

    7 case, Mr. Katava, that on the night of the 20th of

    8 January and into the 21st of January, a large number of

    9 Muslim businesses were destroyed by explosives and

    10 gunfire?

    11 A. Yes, Your Honours, that is true. That is to

    12 say, some businesses were damaged, both of the Muslims

    13 and Croats at that time, and bombs were planted and

    14 there was shooting, but a lot of Muslim and Croat

    15 houses were damaged in these events.

    16 Q. If I could distribute the next Prosecution

    17 Exhibit. What number is this, please, Mr. Registrar?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: It is 550.

    19 MR. CAYLEY:

    20 Q. Now, this document is in the English

    21 language. I will read it slowly to you. I will tell

    22 you, first of all, what it is. It is a military

    23 information summary from the British battalion that

    24 were based in Vitez. It is a report by that

    25 organisation.

  116. 1 Do you recall the British battalion in Vitez,

    2 Mr. Katava?

    3 A. I remember that the British patrolled

    4 Busovaca, and that there was a Dutch battalion in

    5 Busovaca as well.

    6 Q. That's quite right, and, in fact, this report

    7 refers to information provided by the Dutch battalion

    8 in Busovaca, and I'll read it. It's on page 2 and it's

    9 headed "Busovaca": "Reference on milinfosum 81 dated 20

    10 January, 1993, paragraph 4, Dutch transport squadron

    11 report that the new BiH checkpoint placed in Kacuni at

    12 grid reference -- placed at grid reference 353835 was

    13 put in place to prevent HVO reinforcements coming from

    14 Kiseljak, Kresevo. The local Bosnian commander states

    15 that these reinforcements arrived during the evening of

    16 20 January, '93, and were turned back at the

    17 checkpoint. Tensions increased in Busovaca during late

    18 afternoon.

    19 Between 8.00 and 9.00, two HVO checkpoints

    20 were erected at either end of the town centre at grid

    21 references at 304872 and grid reference 313863.

    22 At approximately the same time, a quad

    23 4 x .5," I assume that's referring to a mounted

    24 weapon, "mounted on a flatbed was deployed on the road

    25 south of the town in the area of grid reference

  117. 1 301851. All main routes in and out of Busovaca were

    2 then controlled.

    3 Between 9.00, 20 January and 0200 hours in

    4 the morning, 21 January, the Dutch transport squadron

    5 reported a number of explosions in the town. On 21

    6 January, '93, a daylight reccie (phoen) confirmed that

    7 eight shops and kiosks had been badly damaged by fire

    8 and some form of explosive.

    9 Dutch transport believes that these shops,

    10 which are all Muslim, were possibly damaged by

    11 grenades. Both HVO checkpoints were removed on 21

    12 Jan., '93. A local source reported to the Dutch

    13 battalion that a number of families in Busovaca had

    14 sent their children to stay with friends in Zenica.

    15 The action of 20, 21 Jan., '93 appears to be a

    16 pre-planned coordinated attack on the Muslim

    17 population. Comment ends."

    18 Now, Mr. Katava, you will see that the

    19 observations of UNPROFOR were that on the night of 20

    20 and 21st January, a pre-planned coordinated attack was

    21 launched on the Muslim population and eight shops and

    22 kiosks belonging to the Muslims of Busovaca were badly

    23 damaged. Do you agree with that assessment by

    24 UNPROFOR?

    25 A. No, Your Honours. The fact is that there

  118. 1 were explosions and shooting from firearms on premises

    2 that were closed during the evening hours, but this was

    3 done both on Muslim and Croat premises by irresponsible

    4 criminals probably, or groups, gangs, and it was not an

    5 organised attack, nor did -- were there any

    6 casualties.

    7 Q. So during this time period, you're stating

    8 that there were no casualties at all? Is that your

    9 testimony?

    10 A. In the course of that night, no. When

    11 individual shops, Muslim and Croat, when bombs were

    12 thrown on them and when fire was opened on them, there

    13 were no casualties then on that night.

    14 Q. Do you know the butcher shop owned by Alic

    15 Kasim?

    16 A. I remember that Mr. Alic Cazim, not Kasim had

    17 a butcher shop.

    18 Q. And that was destroyed on the night of the

    19 20th of January?

    20 A. No, it was not destroyed, it was just

    21 damaged.

    22 Q. The restaurant owned by Novalic Fevzija,

    23 excuse my pronunciation, that was destroyed or damaged

    24 on the night of the 20th of January, wasn't it?

    25 A. I did not get the name. Fevzija Novalic,

  119. 1 that is a restaurant, and that restaurant was not

    2 destroyed, it was just damaged by the shooting.

    3 Q. The kebab shop owned by Dizdarevic Salih,

    4 that was destroyed or damaged, wasn't it, on the night

    5 of the 20th of January?

    6 A. Your Honours, I'm not familiar with the

    7 surname "Salih".

    8 Q. The surname is Judarivic.

    9 A. Salih Dizdarevic you mean?

    10 Q. Correct.

    11 A. Yes, I know Salih Dizdarevic, but once again,

    12 the kebab shop was not destroyed, it was damaged

    13 probably by the bullets.

    14 Q. The gift shop owned by Vensar Tatarevic, was

    15 that destroyed or damaged on the night of the 20th of

    16 January?

    17 A. It was damaged, it was not destroyed. Vensar

    18 Tatarevic, I know him. I know the man.

    19 Q. The business owned by Kerima Nevzudin, was

    20 that business destroyed or damaged on the night of the

    21 20th of January?

    22 A. I think it was damaged. I don't recall the

    23 exact date, but I think it was damaged, that this

    24 business was damaged.

    25 Q. And all of these individuals were Muslims,

  120. 1 weren't they, Mr. Katava?

    2 A. Yes, Your Honours, but in addition to those

    3 premises, Croatian premises were also damaged by

    4 explosives and by shooting. They are premises,

    5 businesses next door to each other, and all of them

    6 were damaged, but many of these others are not

    7 mentioned.

    8 Q. Who carried out this attack on the night of

    9 the 20th of January?

    10 A. Probably by armed criminals or gangs for

    11 whatever reasons, out of revolt, revenge and so on.

    12 Q. Armed criminals, Mr. Katava, that UNPROFOR

    13 states operated in a pre-planned and coordinated manner

    14 against the Muslim population in Busovaca.

    15 A. I cannot state my opinions as to that, Your

    16 Honours. That is UNPROFOR's stand and view. As far as

    17 I know, they were settlings of account between the

    18 shopkeepers and the war profiteers, because there was a

    19 lot of trading going on with goods that were in short

    20 supply, and these were sold at astronomically high

    21 prices.

    22 Q. There was an atmosphere of terror and fright

    23 amongst the Muslim population in Busovaca on the 21st

    24 of January, wasn't there, Mr. Katava, and that's why

    25 people left, that's why people sent there children

  121. 1 away?

    2 A. Your Honours, it was a state of war, and

    3 everybody was afraid, the Croats, the Muslims, and we

    4 said already that people had sent their wives and

    5 children away earlier on, and it is only the

    6 military-able men who stayed in Busovaca. So they knew

    7 that something was in the making. That's what rumour

    8 had. We have an example of this nature too.

    9 Q. Mr. Katava, please continue.

    10 A. Well, I do have an example. I talked to an

    11 acquaintance, a Muslim from Busovaca, and he told me, I

    12 think that it says so in the documents too, that there

    13 were rumours that the Muslims from Krajina would attack

    14 Busovaca, and he said, "I sent my wife and children

    15 away. I stayed on here and I have a gun, and if

    16 necessary I'm going to hand it over, but then I'm

    17 afraid there will be an attack."

    18 Q. The Judges of this court, Mr. Katava, have

    19 heard evidence from Prosecution witnesses that HVO

    20 senior civic leaders warned Muslims, senior Muslims in

    21 Busovaca, that there was to be an attack by the HVO and

    22 that they should leave for their own safety. Were you

    23 aware of that?

    24 A. No, Your Honours. I cannot answer that

    25 because I'm not aware of this.

  122. 1 Q. Now, let's move on to the conflict itself in

    2 Busovaca. What date did that take place, the conflict

    3 between the Muslims and the Croats in the town of

    4 Busovaca?

    5 A. Well, Your Honours, I think that this was at

    6 the end of January 1993 that military operations

    7 started by the Muslim forces against Busovaca.

    8 Q. Am I right in saying that during this attack,

    9 19 Muslim houses in Kadica Strana were torched by HVO

    10 forces?

    11 A. Your Honours, during this attack there was a

    12 frontline at the Kadica Strana, and they set it up with

    13 their own detachment. That was there, and they even

    14 had trenches there, and that's where the battle took

    15 place.

    16 Q. You didn't answer my question, Mr. Katava.

    17 These Judges have heard testimony from witnesses that

    18 19 Muslim houses were torched in Kadica Strana by HVO

    19 forces.

    20 A. There were torched houses, Your Honours, at

    21 Kadica Strana, but I'm telling you that fighting took

    22 place there at that time, and the fact remains that

    23 some houses were burned down, and I don't know the

    24 exact number.

    25 Q. Now, is it not the case, Mr. Katava, that a

  123. 1 large number of Muslim males were imprisoned at the

    2 Kaonik military prison after this conflict between the

    3 Croats and the Muslims?

    4 A. Your Honours, after this conflict and after

    5 the cease-fire was brokered, people themselves sought

    6 protection. They were simply afraid after the conflict

    7 broke out. As the Prosecutor said, they were taken

    8 down there for an exchange.

    9 Q. How many Muslim males were taken to the

    10 Kaonik prison facilities after the 26th of January

    11 1993? I think you, yourself, the Judges heard evidence

    12 that you, in fact, took somebody to the Kaonik prison

    13 facility.

    14 A. No, Your Honours, I personally did not take

    15 prisoners. And I could not give the exact number, I

    16 personally did not take them.

    17 Q. How many would you say, approximately, how

    18 many prisoners, approximately, were kept at the Kaonik

    19 prison facility?

    20 A. Your Honours, I could not exactly say how

    21 many there were.

    22 Q. Would the figure of 400 be correct,

    23 Mr. Katava?

    24 A. No, I think there were less.

    25 Q. More than 300, more than 200?

  124. 1 A. Around 200, perhaps. I'm not sure. I cannot

    2 give you an exact number.

    3 Q. Let me read to you some testimony that the

    4 Judges have already heard, and this is Witness Z. Now,

    5 are you aware, Mr. Katava, of the murder of Fikret

    6 Husanovic, Midhat Hadzibegovic and Nijaz Neslanovic on

    7 the 26th of January 1993 by HVO soldiers?

    8 INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear

    9 the witness.

    10 Q. Could you repeat the answer to that question?

    11 A. Nijaz Neslanovic, is that what you said?

    12 Q. Nijaz Neslanovic?

    13 A. No, Your Honours, I do not recall that.

    14 Q. Midhat Hadzibegovic?

    15 A. Your Honours, I don't remember that.

    16 Q. Fikret Husanovic?

    17 A. Husanovic? No, I do not recall.

    18 Q. Let me read to you the testimony of the one

    19 survivors from this incident. "Afterwards, when I came

    20 to --"

    21 MR. HAYMAN: Could we have a page, Counsel?

    22 MR. CAYLEY: 6591.

    23 Q. "Afterwards when I came to I called out

    24 because the others were dead, and I went to the barn of

    25 Salihodzic. I stayed there until the morning. In the

  125. 1 morning, around 7.00, I headed towards the police

    2 station and I got close to the police when I observed

    3 Slavko Katava, a policeman whom I called and asked him

    4 whether I may approach. He said I could if I was not

    5 armed, so I walked up and he asked what was wrong. I

    6 asked him to take me where there were other Muslims and

    7 so he took me to Kaonik where almost all detainees were

    8 Muslims, and so and I got there." Is that you the

    9 Slavko Katava described in this statement?

    10 JUDGE JORDA: More slowly, please,

    11 Mr. Cayley. Repeat it, please.

    12 MR. CAYLEY: I won't repeat it all, Mr.

    13 President, I'll repeat from halfway through the

    14 paragraph.

    15 Q. "In the morning, around 7.00, I headed towards

    16 the police station and I got close to the police when I

    17 observed Slavko Katava, a policeman whom I called and

    18 asked him whether I may approach. He said I could if I

    19 was not armed. So I walked up and he asked me what was

    20 wrong. I asked him to take me where there were other

    21 Muslims, and so he took me to Kaonik where almost all

    22 detainees were Muslims, and so, I got there."

    23 Now, is this referring to you, Mr. Katava?

    24 A. Yes, Your Honour, I am Slavko Katava, and it

    25 is possible that I helped the man, because I helped

  126. 1 everyone who addressed me. And perhaps if you would

    2 tell me the man's name I would remember. I can't

    3 remember. Perhaps I took him to Kaonik, but only if he

    4 asked me, but I didn't take anyone ever by force.

    5 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Katava, that Muslim male

    6 prisoners at the Kaonik prison were used by the HVO for

    7 trench digging purposes?

    8 A. I don't know about that, because I was not at

    9 the Kaonik prison, Your Honour, and I don't know what

    10 the organisation was like over there.

    11 Q. How many times did you visit the Kaonik

    12 prison?

    13 A. Perhaps only in such a case, if I drove

    14 someone to near the prison of Kaonik, because I didn't

    15 go there. Perhaps somebody wanted me to drive him

    16 there, or something like that.

    17 Q. Where did these several hundred Muslim

    18 prisoners go after the agreement of February the 8th,

    19 when I think they were released under the control of

    20 the International Committee for the Red Cross? Where

    21 did these people go?

    22 A. Your Honours, I think they went to the area

    23 of Zenica and Kacuni, and I think it was an exchange,

    24 and some Croats from the area of Kacuni came to

    25 Busovaca, I believe.

  127. 1 Q. Would you agree with me that prior to January

    2 there were two-and-a-half to three thousand Bosniak

    3 Muslims living in the town of Busovaca?

    4 A. I would agree with you. Your Honour, it was

    5 half/half, a bit more Croats in Busovaca, but I would

    6 agree it was perhaps half/half, about three-and-a-half

    7 thousand people in the town itself.

    8 Q. Three-and-a-half thousand people in the town

    9 itself, approximately half of whom were Croat, half

    10 were Muslim.

    11 A. Half and half, and a bit more Croats.

    12 Q. And after April of 1993, how many Muslims

    13 were left in the centre of town in Busovaca?

    14 A. I don't know. Your Honour, I don't know

    15 exactly. I know that quite a few families remained. I

    16 know that my neighbours stayed on, and I can mention

    17 them by name, they are still there; but I cannot give

    18 you the exact figures because I didn't pay attention to

    19 this. I have my own neighbours, three or four families

    20 who live in my apartment building, I know them.

    21 Q. There were about 20 or 30 Muslims left in

    22 Busovaca; weren't there, after April of 1993,

    23 Mr. Katava? The Judges have already heard testimony to

    24 this effect.

    25 A. Your Honour, I think there were more than 30

  128. 1 of them.

    2 Q. How many, Mr. Katava?

    3 A. I do not know the exact number, Your Honour,

    4 I already said that. But when I look at my apartment

    5 building only, there were three, four families. On

    6 average, three members per family, so you can do the

    7 mathematics.

    8 MR. CAYLEY: Now, let us go to your report.

    9 Could the witness have the exhibit put in front of him,

    10 which is now, I think it's Exhibit 450? And if we

    11 could look, first of all, at document 96.

    12 Q. Now, first of all, Mr. Katava, the village of

    13 Bukovici, was that a mixed village of Muslims and

    14 Croats, prior to the war?

    15 A. Your Honour, it is not Bukovici, it is

    16 Bukovci, but the majority of the population was Croat.

    17 Q. And the village of Grablje, was that a mixed

    18 village of Muslims and Croats?

    19 A. Yes, Grablje was a mixed village, Croats,

    20 Serbs and Muslims.

    21 Q. Now, the village of Gusti Grab, was that a

    22 mixed village of Muslims and Croats?

    23 A. No, Your Honour, Gusti Grab was a purely

    24 Croat village.

    25 Q. The village of Javor, was that a mixed

  129. 1 village or a purely Croat village?

    2 A. The village of Javor is a small village and

    3 it was only Croat.

    4 Q. The village of Jelinak?

    5 A. The village of Jelinak is a mixed village,

    6 Muslim and Croatian.

    7 Q. Now, the village of Kacuni?

    8 A. Also mixed.

    9 Q. Muslims and Croats?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. The village of Krvavicici?

    12 A. Krvavicici is also a small village, only

    13 Croats live there.

    14 Q. The village of Kula?

    15 A. It was a Croatian village, Your Honour.

    16 Q. The village of Milavice?

    17 A. Also a village with a majority Croat

    18 population.

    19 Q. The village of Nezirovici?

    20 A. Nezirovici, Your Honour, also a Croat

    21 village.

    22 Q. The village of Oseliste?

    23 A. Oseliste, yes, a Croat village.

    24 Q. The village of Prosje?

    25 A. Also a Croat village.

  130. 1 Q. The village of Putis?

    2 A. Mixed population, but the majority is Croat.

    3 Q. So Muslims and Croats, a mixed village?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Solakovici?

    6 A. Also mixed.

    7 Q. The village of Pirici?

    8 A. Pirici, the village of Pirici, that's Croat

    9 village, Besici and Turici, that's what it's called.

    10 Q. Now, can you tell the Court when the damage

    11 to these buildings, these houses was done in these

    12 villages, in what year this occurred?

    13 A. As soon as the conflict broke out, Your

    14 Honour, in 1993.

    15 Q. How do you know that?

    16 A. That's when people were expelled from those

    17 houses and they came to the urban area of Busovaca, and

    18 we heard them tell us about these houses being

    19 destroyed and burned.

    20 Q. Now, in this report it purely concentrates on

    21 damage to Croatian property; does it not?

    22 A. Yes, Your Honour, this is a report on damages

    23 to Croatian property.

    24 Q. Now, you state in the report that the

    25 Bosniaks propose in the first stage that people should

  131. 1 return to Strane, Loncari, Skradno and Kovacevac. What

    2 damage was there to Bosnian Muslim homes in those

    3 villages?

    4 A. What were the damages done to -- what was the

    5 damage done to Muslim houses, was that the question?

    6 Q. Yes.

    7 A. Well, the houses were damaged in Loncari,

    8 both Croat and Muslim, because this was the frontline,

    9 and also the houses in Skradno. Loncari, Jelinak,

    10 Putis, all those villages were under Muslim control,

    11 and they went back. And now they have returned to

    12 Skradno too.

    13 Q. Now let's have a look at a map that I've put

    14 together, which actually includes -- it is, in fact, on

    15 one map so I think it is slightly easier to follow than

    16 the Defence exhibit.

    17 Mr. Katava, why did you not include in this

    18 report the damage to Bosnian Muslim homes in the

    19 Busovaca municipality?

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo.

    21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the question is

    22 not correct, because my learned friend has asked him

    23 why he did not enter the damage to Muslim houses, and

    24 the witness said that it is a document of the Busovaca

    25 municipality, from the head of the municipality, he

  132. 1 just recognised it by virtue of its contents and

    2 stamp. It is not the witness who drew up the document.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that's right, this is not

    4 the witness's document. Your question isn't properly

    5 formulated. You can ask the witness his opinion in a

    6 different way. You can't ask him -- well, maybe it's a

    7 question of perception.

    8 MR. CAYLEY:

    9 Q. So from what Mr. Nobilo is saying, you cannot

    10 state whether the information contained in this report

    11 is correct or not, you can only simply identify the

    12 stamp of Niko Grubesic.

    13 MR. NOBILO: I did not say that. I did not

    14 say the witness cannot identify it. He confirmed the

    15 facts, but he did not compile the document. It was

    16 compiled by the municipality, so he doesn't know why

    17 only Croat houses were mentioned, but he knows the

    18 situation from the document.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I think that's the

    20 question Mr. Cayley was asking. Further to your

    21 objection, Mr. Cayley said that you can only identify

    22 it; isn't that right?

    23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, either he knows

    24 the contents of this document are true or not. If he

    25 doesn't, he shouldn't be here testifying about this

  133. 1 document.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Let the witness answer. I

    3 think that the question has been correctly asked now.

    4 Did you understand the question, or do you

    5 want the Prosecutor to ask it in a different way?

    6 THE WITNESS: Yes, could he repeat the

    7 question, please?

    8 MR. CAYLEY:

    9 Q. Why is there no mention in this report of the

    10 damage done to Bosnian Muslim property? You, yourself,

    11 confirmed that 19 houses, Muslim houses in Busovaca

    12 were torched, that a number of Muslim businesses were

    13 damaged. Why is there no mention of this in this

    14 report?

    15 A. Your Honours, I recognise this document, and

    16 I consider that the facts are true. I see that it was

    17 signed by Mayor Grubesic, and when asked by the learned

    18 counsel, that the Muslims probably compiled similar

    19 documents.

    20 And so, they were sent to humanitarian

    21 organisations and they expressed the need for help and

    22 the number of houses damaged. That is my opinion, and

    23 I know from practice that that is what they did.

    24 Q. Mr. Katava, was the Federation in existence

    25 at the time this document was drafted?

  134. 1 A. I believe that it existed, Your Honours, but

    2 some services were still separate and we still had a

    3 parallel administration. They were not all together.

    4 Q. So it's correct, isn't it, that this report

    5 makes no mention of all of the damage to Bosnian Muslim

    6 housing in the municipality of Busovaca?

    7 JUDGE JORDA: The question was already asked,

    8 you got an answer to that question, Mr. Cayley. Did

    9 you give a number to this map?

    10 THE REGISTRAR: That's 551.

    11 MR. CAYLEY:

    12 Q. Mr. Katava, of the property mentioned in all

    13 of these villages, it only refers to Croatian housing

    14 in those villages; is that correct?

    15 A. Yes, Your Honours, I think that's correct.

    16 MR. NOBILO: This question has already been

    17 answered at least three times.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, it's clear, Mr. Cayley.

    19 You can move to another question.

    20 MR. CAYLEY:

    21 Q. Mr. Katava, were you in Busovaca throughout

    22 the war?

    23 A. Yes, I was. Throughout the war I was in

    24 Busovaca.

    25 Q. Now, I've marked off on here all of the

  135. 1 villages that are referred to in this report. In fact,

    2 I notice there is one additional that is referred to,

    3 Bilalovac, and that is a mistake. But could you go

    4 through each of these villages and state to the Judges

    5 whether or not these villages were on the line of

    6 confrontation between the HVO and Bosnian government

    7 forces?

    8 A. Possibly.

    9 Q. Oseliste?

    10 A. Oseliste was under the control of the Muslim

    11 forces at the beginning.

    12 Q. What I want to know, Mr. Katava, is whether

    13 or not it was on a confrontation line, not under whose

    14 control it was. Do you understand the question?

    15 A. The village of Oseliste is on the border of

    16 the Kiseljak municipality and follows on from

    17 Bilalovac.

    18 Q. So Oseliste is a line of confrontation

    19 between the HVO and the Bosnian army?

    20 A. That was not where the front was, Your

    21 Honours. The front was at Berstosko, the Defence lines

    22 were there between the HVO and the Muslim army.

    23 Q. Gusti Grab?

    24 A. Gusti Grab also it is a village next to

    25 Oseliste.

  136. 1 Q. Was Gusti Grab on a frontline position?

    2 A. No, Your Honours.

    3 Q. Was there any fighting in the village of

    4 Oseliste between the HVO and the Bosnian army?

    5 A. There was nobody to fight there in Oseliste.

    6 Q. What do you mean by that? What do you mean

    7 by there was nobody to fight in Oseliste?

    8 A. Well, they were repelled by the majority

    9 Muslim forces, they didn't have the chance of fighting.

    10 Q. Were there HVO forces based in Oseliste at

    11 any time?

    12 A. I couldn't say, because I wasn't in the

    13 village. I know that the people from that village fled

    14 to Kiseljak.

    15 Q. So you have no idea whether or not there was

    16 HVO based in Oseliste, is that what you're stating to

    17 the Judges?

    18 A. I don't know. I only know that the people

    19 fled in the direction of Kiseljak, that is to say, the

    20 locals, the local population of the village of

    21 Oseliste, and some of them fell casualty, both women

    22 and children.

    23 Q. Gusti Grab, were there HVO forces based in

    24 Gusti Grab?

    25 A. I couldn't confirm that, Your Honours.

  137. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, don't change your

    2 direction too much. Either you indicate what your

    3 objective is and the Judges can follow you with less

    4 difficulty, or if you don't want to say where you're

    5 going, then ask the same question. Because I'm still

    6 thinking about the question about the frontline, and

    7 after that when you talk about each village, you go

    8 into different analyses, whether it was HVO or

    9 something else.

    10 So either tell us what you're looking for,

    11 that would be clear, and then you can ask all the

    12 questions you want, or else remain with the question

    13 that you asked, that is, in each of these villages you

    14 can ask whether the confrontation line was there.

    15 That's to make things clear.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I think it is

    17 probably important to know the answer to both of those

    18 questions; one, whether or not the village was on a

    19 confrontation line, and two, whether or not there were

    20 HVO forces that were based there.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Very well then, that's clear.

    22 And then the witness can try to answer whether in each

    23 of the villages the various things happened. Try to

    24 answer clearly without many digressions. You know

    25 we're going to work today until a quarter to 6.00

  138. 1 because we resumed at a quarter to 3.00.

    2 Gusti Grab, Mr. Katava, Gusti Grab, was it on

    3 the frontline, and was HVO in it? Please answer.

    4 A. Your Honours, I can show you on the map. You

    5 see, the frontline and the delineation between the HVO

    6 and the Muslim forces. It was in Donje Polje, and from

    7 Donje Polje these places, Kacuni, Gusti Grab, Oseliste

    8 and Prosje. That was not controlled by the HVO. So

    9 from Donje Polje to Bilalovac, that was under control

    10 of the BH army and the frontline was there. If it is

    11 easier for me to answer that way, Your Honours.

    12 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, may I suggest

    13 that the witness point out Donje Polje so we can all

    14 see it?

    15 JUDGE JORDA: The map should be put on the

    16 ELMO or -- and on the easel so that the public can

    17 witness what's going on. Remember that this is a

    18 public hearing.

    19 In the second place, in respect of what you

    20 asked the witness, I ask that you repeat the question.

    21 Put the map either on the ELMO, so it will be on the

    22 monitor, or on the easel, in which case the witness

    23 would have to get up. And try to go a little bit

    24 faster. All right, then on the ELMO. Can the

    25 technical booth show it? All right.

  139. 1 Mr. Cayley?

    2 MR. CAYLEY:

    3 Q. Mr. Katava, if we can go through village by

    4 village. Gusti Grab, were there HVO forces based in

    5 Gusti Grab?

    6 A. Your Honours, I said that in this area --

    7 this area was under the control of the Muslim army,

    8 from Donje Polje to Bilalovac.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: All right. You've got your

    10 answer. It was the Muslims forces, it wasn't the HVO.

    11 MR. CAYLEY:

    12 Q. Prior to April of 1993, were there HVO forces

    13 in Gusti Grab?

    14 A. People lived there, Croats lived there.

    15 Q. In January of 1993, were there HVO forces

    16 based in Gusti Grab?

    17 A. Well, Your Honours, after the conflict broke

    18 out, the Croats from this area were expelled to

    19 Busovaca and all of them left the area.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Please get close -- bring the

    21 ELMO closer so the witness can sit down, otherwise, he

    22 has difficulty concentrating on his answer. Very

    23 well.

    24 Mr. Cayley, will you ask your question

    25 again? Do you want to move to another village or --

  140. 1 MR. CAYLEY:

    2 Q. Was there fighting between Muslims and Croats

    3 in Gusti Grab?

    4 A. There was no fighting, Your Honours, there

    5 were just casualties, because the Croats didn't have

    6 their units there.

    7 Q. In Prosje, were there HVO units based there?

    8 A. No, there were not in Prosje.

    9 Q. In Nezirovici, were there HVO units based at

    10 any time in that village?

    11 A. No, Your Honours. The same thing as with the

    12 other villages, Nezirovici as well, the people were

    13 expelled from there and there were casualties.

    14 Q. No HVO in that village at all, Mr. Katava?

    15 A. There were Croats who were expelled, but

    16 there were no HVO soldiers.

    17 Q. In the village of Turici, were there HVO

    18 soldiers ever based in that village?

    19 A. No. The same thing there. All this was

    20 under the control of the Muslim army. The HVO soldiers

    21 could not have been there.

    22 Q. In Milavice at any time were there HVO

    23 soldiers based in that village?

    24 A. Milavice are on the confrontation line, the

    25 delineation line. Milavice are on the frontline.

  141. 1 Q. Between the Bosnian army and the HVO?

    2 A. Between the Muslim forces and the HVO, yes.

    3 Q. Krvavicici, were there HVO units based there

    4 prior to January 1993?

    5 A. No. It was a small village and the people

    6 had left.

    7 Q. In the village of Javor, were there ever HVO

    8 units based in that village?

    9 A. No, Your Honour, not up there. No one.

    10 There were only old men and women there, and they were

    11 expelled from up there. This is a very small village

    12 above the Muslim villages up there, above Stubice,

    13 Sudine, Hozanovici.

    14 Q. Solakovici, were there ever HVO units based

    15 in that village?

    16 A. The village of Solakovici was also on the

    17 defence line, the frontline.

    18 Q. So there were HVO units based in that

    19 village?

    20 A. Your Honour, I didn't understand the name of

    21 the village.

    22 Q. Solakovici.

    23 A. Solakovici? That is a village on the

    24 frontline.

    25 Q. So there was -- there were HVO units based

  142. 1 there and combat took place between the Bosnian army

    2 and the HVO?

    3 A. No, Your Honour, there weren't any HVO units

    4 in Solakovici. Solakovici was under Muslim forces'

    5 control, and the frontline was in between.

    6 Q. In between where, Mr. Katava?

    7 A. Between the Muslim forces and the Croatian

    8 defence forces.

    9 Q. But Solakovici was on the confrontation line

    10 between HVO forces and Bosnian Muslim forces?

    11 A. Your Honour, there is Donji Solakovici and

    12 Gornji Solakovici. Gornji Solakovici was under Bosniak

    13 Muslim control, and there were a smaller number of

    14 Croatian families there who were expelled to Donji

    15 Solakovici. Between Donji Solakovici and Gornji

    16 Solakovici there was a line of delineation. I don't

    17 know if I've been quite clear now.

    18 Q. So there was an upper Solakovici and a lower

    19 Solakovici, and the confrontation line ran through the

    20 village?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. In Kula, were there HVO forces based in

    23 Kula?

    24 A. Kula is also on the defence line, on the

    25 confrontation line.

  143. 1 Q. And there were HVO forces based there and

    2 combat took place between the HVO and the Bosnian

    3 Muslim forces?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Strane, were there HVO forces based in

    6 Strane?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And did fighting take place there between

    9 Bosnian Muslim forces and the HVO?

    10 A. Not at Strane Your Honour.

    11 Q. Grablje, were there HVO forces based in

    12 Grablje?

    13 A. No. Grablje was under the control of the

    14 Muslim forces.

    15 Q. Putis, were there HVO forces based in Putis?

    16 A. Putis, Jelinak and Loncari are villages on

    17 the frontline itself.

    18 Q. So on the confrontation line between Bosnian

    19 Muslim forces and the HVO?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And fighting took place in those villages

    22 between the HVO and the Bosnian army?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, you state that you are, I

    25 think, a member of the HVO civilian police force; is

  144. 1 that correct?

    2 A. Yes, Busovaca civilian police.

    3 Q. Now, is the name of your father Jozo?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And you were born on the 21st of September,

    6 1956?

    7 A. Yes, Your Honour, on the 21st of September,

    8 1956 in Donje Polje, municipality of Busovaca.

    9 Q. Now, is it not also the case, Mr. Katava,

    10 that you have served in the HVO intelligence services,

    11 in the SIS? That's the case; isn't it?

    12 A. No, Your Honour, I never served in the SIS.

    13 I was a policeman at the Busovaca police station

    14 throughout.

    15 Q. Do you know what the SIS is, Mr. Katava?

    16 A. I think those are some kind of intelligence

    17 services.

    18 Q. Security and information service of the HVO.

    19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not

    20 hear the answer, I'm sorry.

    21 MR. CAYLEY:

    22 Q. Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Katava?

    23 A. That is the intelligence service, to the best

    24 of my knowledge.

    25 Q. And you state that you have never served in

  145. 1 that organisation?

    2 A. I was never a member of any intelligence

    3 service.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: Well, we'll come back to that

    5 point tomorrow. Mr. President, we can pause now and

    6 continue with the cross-examination on the balance of

    7 the documents tomorrow.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Not tomorrow morning, it's at

    9 2.00, 2.00 tomorrow. Mr. Nobilo?

    10 MR. NOBILO: Could we please find out from

    11 the registrar how long the direct-examination took and

    12 how long has the cross-examination taken so far?

    13 Perhaps it would be useful to hear this now.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. There's quite a

    15 difference here. Mr. Cayley you have to think that the

    16 witness participated in many events, and the Judges

    17 want to hear the questions you're asking, but we have

    18 to keep a certain balance, a relative balance.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: The direct-examination lasted

    20 for 30 minutes. I'm not counting the discussions about

    21 D450. If I do take that into account, then the

    22 direction examination lasted for 1 hour and 40

    23 minutes.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: I don't understand what you're

    25 saying there. It was an hour and 40 minutes or 30

  146. 1 minutes?

    2 THE REGISTRAR: Actually, the questions asked

    3 took up only 30 minutes, 12 of which were for the

    4 projection of the film. But if we count the discussion

    5 about the Exhibit 450, that is the document for which

    6 there was no translation, then there was 70 minutes of

    7 discussion on that. Seventy minutes.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Seventy minutes. In other

    9 words, 1 hour and 10 minutes.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's right. That

    11 brings us to 1 hour and 40 minutes.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: And the --

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Now, this is 105 minutes for

    14 the Prosecutor up to this point.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I can feel that

    16 you're going to make an objection.

    17 MR. NOBILO: Yes, yes. That is a key thing,

    18 because procedural questions should not be made at the

    19 expense of the direct-examination or the examination as

    20 such. If necessary, we are going to make points of

    21 order every five minutes. So we should simply see for

    22 how long the witness answers the questions of the

    23 Prosecutor and how long he answered my questions.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: We're not going to look at

    25 procedure issues. We're simply going to ask Mr. Cayley

  147. 1 simply how much longer he needs.

    2 MR. CAYLEY: I'll have to look at the

    3 documents first, Mr. President, to give an estimate.

    4 The only point I would make is --

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Which documents? You know that

    6 we said that the first documents are simply documents

    7 being filed from A to G, filed the way 456 was filed.

    8 We're not going to start that over again.

    9 I think that the direct-examination dealt

    10 only with the -- J and K. Isn't that right,

    11 Mr. Nobilo?

    12 As regards the other things, we said that the

    13 translations of Tab H should be done. This may mean

    14 that the witness has to come back. But as regards

    15 documents A through G, in theory, they are being filed

    16 the way you filed 456, and you can review them when you

    17 like and make any comments you want to make at the

    18 proper time, as the Defence did. At least that's what

    19 I thought we had decided.

    20 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, my understanding

    21 of what was decided, with the deepest of respect, is

    22 that in respect of --

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Well, when I hear people

    24 beginning like that, when I hear, "With all the respect

    25 I owe you," I must have made a dreadful mistake. All

  148. 1 right. That really worries me. What did you want to

    2 say?

    3 MR. CAYLEY: I would never suggest that

    4 you've made a mistake, Mr. President. My

    5 interpretation of what you stated was that in respect

    6 of Tab H, we would wait until the documents were

    7 translated into English, and if necessary, we would

    8 exercise our right to request of the Chamber that we

    9 bring the witness back to the Court. In respect of

    10 documents A to G inclusive, that we would read these

    11 documents overnight, and then if we had any questions

    12 of the witness we would ask him tomorrow afternoon. We

    13 may not have any questions.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I agree. That means that

    15 the Defence has to go back to its direct-examination.

    16 Unless it doesn't want to. But it seems to me that the

    17 Defence -- excuse me, Mr. Hayman, I'll talk more

    18 slowly. It seems to me that the Defence, on purpose,

    19 intentionally, asked no questions about A through G.

    20 Was that intentional, Mr. Nobilo?

    21 MR. NOBILO: The Defence tries to save up

    22 time and to bring as many witnesses as possible within

    23 a given amount of time. Had we been reading everything

    24 with this witness as we did with Slavko Marin, we would

    25 have been reading in with him for about seven days. We

  149. 1 hope that the relevance of all documents would be

    2 understood, and we didn't want to do this through this

    3 witness. Mr. Cayley could resort to all the questions

    4 he wants to, but within the assigned time.

    5 And you saw the cross-examination, and also

    6 before that, during the direct-examination, when our

    7 time, Defence time, was used on purpose. It is all the

    8 same to us what questions are going to be put, but not

    9 at the expense of our time.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: I don't think that we've

    11 understood one another. If you submit the documents A

    12 through G and have no question to ask the witness about

    13 those documents, we cannot prevent Mr. Cayley from

    14 asking questions about documents that you filed covered

    15 within A through G. That's what I'm asking you. Was

    16 it intentional you did not want to ask any questions

    17 about A through G?

    18 The registrar is recalling what I said, and I

    19 was not wrong. We had authorised the Prosecutor to ask

    20 questions about the documents A through G, but insofar

    21 as you decided not to ask questions about A through G,

    22 I give you back the right to ask them, which means that

    23 if the Prosecutor, as it is his intention, wants to ask

    24 questions about A through G, because they're here and

    25 the witness is here too, at that point, if you like,

  150. 1 Mr. Nobilo, tomorrow you can directly examine the

    2 witness on the documents A through G, and then there

    3 would be cross-examination. But if you waive that

    4 right, you waive that right.

    5 MR. NOBILO: We have understood the ruling of

    6 the court. With your permission, we would like to

    7 think about this until tomorrow.

    8 However, the crucial thing is that we do not

    9 oppose a single question put by the Prosecutor which is

    10 within the scope of the examination-in-chief and within

    11 the time that we used. We do not oppose any question.

    12 However, it is quite noticeable that every one of our

    13 witnesses is examined two or three times longer in

    14 cross-examination than during direct-examination. We

    15 did not have this opportunity while the Prosecution

    16 witnesses were being heard, because we were told that

    17 this had to be proportionate in terms of time.

    18 I can understand it if it was 15, or 20 or 30

    19 per cent, but every time 200 per cent, 300 per cent

    20 more. I mean, in that case, both parties are not

    21 equal.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. This question --

    23 there were two possible solutions. Let me be very

    24 clear, because I have the impression that we aren't

    25 being very clear, and perhaps I wasn't clear.

  151. 1 We had thought that documents A through G

    2 would be filed as the Prosecutor did with 456. I,

    3 rather, was inclined to think that the Defence -- that

    4 the Defence did not want to ask any questions about

    5 those documents. And it is true, at another point in

    6 the discussion, which was a long one, we authorised

    7 Mr. Cayley to review the documents A through G so that

    8 he could cross-examine the witness. But when you

    9 questioned your witness, Mr. Nobilo, I noted that you

    10 didn't take up very much time, and that you asked

    11 questions only about the documents J and K.

    12 Therefore, I thought that I would take away

    13 the Prosecution's right to cross-examine the witness on

    14 those documents, because you had assumed that the

    15 documents A through G would in some way be filed with

    16 the Tribunal as the Prosecution had done with 456. All

    17 this out of a concern for maintaining equilibrium,

    18 since the original objection, Mr. Hayman, had to do

    19 with the so-called imbalance that the Judges had

    20 allowed in terms of 456.

    21 Now Mr. Cayley is reminding me and telling me

    22 that, of course, at another point we said so long as

    23 the witness is here, Mr. Cayley could take advantage of

    24 tomorrow morning to study all of the documents, A

    25 through G, and then to cross-examine the witness. And

  152. 1 if -- I think that it's natural that should you be

    2 limited in any way, it would be natural for you to --

    3 for us to give you back the right to ask any questions

    4 that you want to ask about A through G. But if you're

    5 saying to me that, "All in all we do not intend to ask

    6 any questions about A through G," then I will maintain

    7 the Prosecutor's right to ask questions, because it was

    8 your choice not to ask those questions, or it would be

    9 in your choice in any case, but, of course, I will ask

    10 the Prosecutor to do it quickly. Is it clear what I've

    11 said?

    12 MR. HAYMAN: We think it is clear,

    13 Mr. President. We think the Prosecutor should have the

    14 right to ask questions about categories A through G

    15 within the scope and within the time limits set by Your

    16 Honour. The Defence's remedy, should that examination

    17 be allowed to go on for a long period of time, would be

    18 on redirect examination we believe.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Let me turn to

    20 Mr. Cayley, because now the question is clear.

    21 You have reviewed the documents A through G,

    22 you're going to continue to review them. Can you give

    23 us an approximate amount of time it will take you to

    24 read them? We can't give you the whole afternoon, that

    25 would be difficult, but you can ask the questions you

  153. 1 want about them, and then the Defence will decide

    2 whether it wants to question the witness.

    3 All right, we'll resume tomorrow at 2.00.

    4 What do you have, about an hour's worth of questions to

    5 ask yet?

    6 MR. CAYLEY: I imagine that that's a fair

    7 estimate, Mr. President. I will try and get through it

    8 in an hour.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: All right, about an hour. All

    10 right. Since you are -- this is not a

    11 cross-examination. I turn to Mr. Nobilo and

    12 Mr. Hayman. Because you were self-limited by not

    13 asking questions about A through G -- Judge Riad is

    14 looking at me with a great deal of indulgence I am

    15 repeating myself -- you were frustrated, given the fact

    16 that the Prosecutor might need an hour for A through

    17 G. At 2.00 tomorrow do you want to take advantage of

    18 about a half hour, three-quarters of an hour to ask

    19 questions about A through G? You are the one who has

    20 to decide about this, it's your witness.

    21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, of course we do

    22 not waive our right to redirect, and we shall certainly

    23 avail ourselves of that right, but we think that the

    24 Prosecutor overstepped his time considerably, and we

    25 should have, for the redirect, at least as much time as

  154. 1 the Prosecutor is going to use up for documents A

    2 through G which we did not examine the witness on

    3 yesterday, because this is going to be something

    4 completely new, something that we hadn't discussed. So

    5 if the Prosecutor needs an hour for that, then we need

    6 an hour too.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: That's fine. Then you have the

    8 redirect time. So you'll have all the time you need,

    9 if you agree.

    10 Tomorrow -- I turn to my colleagues. Do you

    11 agree with me? We will begin at 2.00.

    12 If you agree, Mr. Cayley, I won't give you

    13 the floor immediately, I'll give it to Mr. Nobilo so he

    14 could begin his examination, which will last a half

    15 hour, three-quarters of an hour, unless he wants to do

    16 it through redirect. Would you rather do it through

    17 redirect? All right. That's even easier then. That

    18 would make things even easier.

    19 All right. Mr. Cayley, tomorrow we will give

    20 you the floor at 2.00 for about an hour, about an hour,

    21 I say. Then you have redirect time which -- for which

    22 time you will not be limited by the Judges. We hope

    23 that we'll be able to finish by tomorrow afternoon,

    24 because the Judges have some questions that they're

    25 going to want to ask also.

  155. 1 Have I succeeded in being clear this time?

    2 All right. Court stands adjourned and we

    3 will resume tomorrow at 2.00.

    4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    5 5.58 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday,

    6 the 25th day of November, 1998

    7 at 2.00 p.m.