1 Wednesday, 25th November, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Have the accused brought in,
5 Mr. Registrar.
6 (The accused entered court)
7 JUDGE JORDA: First of all, would I like to
8 say good afternoon to the interpreters, and to
9 everybody else as well, to make sure everybody can
10 hear, the Prosecutor, the Defence, and then we can
11 resume our work. We'll work today until 6.15, since we
12 didn't begin before 2.15. We'll work until 6.15. Let
13 me check our permanent clock, the registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Let's have the witness brought
16 in. Mr. Katava.
17 (The witness entered court)
18 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, good afternoon.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley.
20 MR. CAYLEY: And Your Honours. Just as we're
21 waiting for the witness to settle, may I introduce
22 Patricia Reynders who will be our case manager. A new
23 face in the courtroom. She will be our case manager
24 for the foreseeable future.
25 JUDGE JORDA: We'll say good afternoon to
1 Patricia Reynders. I'm sure she speaks French
2 perfectly. Thank you for your answer. We want to
3 welcome her very heartily to this courtroom.
4 Mr. Katava, do you feel all right. Did you
5 rest up a bit?
6 A. Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. All right.
8 Mr. Cayley, I suppose you didn't sleep a wink last
9 night. You have files in your mind, files in front
10 you, briefs, but we're going to look at the real clock
11 now, turning to the registrar. Let's say it's 2.30, so
12 you have about, I say about, about, a half hour for
13 your cross-examination about all of the documents, and
14 the Defence will have the same amount of time for its
15 redirect. So without any further ado, we can begin
16 now. All right. Mr. Cayley, proceed.
17 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, you said about a
18 half an hour. I think you meant about an hour. Is
19 that right?
20 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I know your sense of
21 humour, Mr. Cayley. I do note that the translators had
22 also such a good sense of humour and would also distort
23 my words. No, it's an hour, an hour. I said
24 approximately an hour, because we're not going to count
25 every second.
1 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 WITNESS: MR. KATAVA (continued)
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Katava.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Now, in your examination-in-chief you said
6 that in '92 and '93, 1992 and 1993, the police force in
7 Busovaca was poorly equipped and organised. Would that
8 be a fair summary of what you stated?
9 A. Your Honour, I said that they worked within
10 the scope of their possibilities, the material and
11 technical equipment they had available. I did not say
12 that they were equipped.
13 Q. That's fine. Your answer's fine,
14 Mr. Katava. Now, five years has passed, and peace has
15 come and the Federation police force has been formed.
16 Would you say that the police force in Busovaca has
17 improved during that time in terms of its quality?
18 A. Well, now we have conditions that are a bit
19 better, so we work a bit better too. Also we've been
20 rather successful in structuring the police, and there
21 is training too, Your Honours, so the police force is
22 of a different quality now.
23 Q. So it would be fair to say that things are
24 better now than they were in 1992 and 1993?
25 A. In 1992 and 1993 there was a war on and now
1 it's peacetime.
2 Q. Now, if the witness can have placed in front
3 of him Exhibit 450. Defence Exhibit 450.
4 Now, Mr. Katava, you're familiar with the
5 documents contained in this file?
6 A. Yes, Your Honour, yes, I am.
7 Q. Did you select these documents, sir, for the
8 purposes of your testimony?
9 A. No, I didn't, Your Honour. This is only part
10 of the documents that were put forth to me by the
11 lawyers. There are more documents on this. These are
12 documents related to the way in which we worked then.
13 Q. So I'm right in saying that Mr. Nobilo
14 selected the documents that are in that file?
15 A. I don't know who selected the documents. I
16 had a look at them though.
17 Q. So you -- although you're familiar with those
18 documents, you have no idea upon what basis they were
19 selected for your testimony?
20 A. I don't know, Your Honour.
21 Q. Now, you've just stated that these documents
22 are only part of the documents that were put forth by
23 you to the lawyer. How many more documents are there
24 other than these that are contained in this file?
25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?
1 MR. NOBILO: My learned colleague is twisting
2 the witness's words. The witness did not say that he
3 had put forth the documents to me, but that he had seen
4 these documents with the Defence. So it's not this
5 witness that put them forth to me. He didn't bring any
6 documents to me at all.
7 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to consult my
8 colleagues on a point.
9 Mr. Cayley, the Judges were concerned about
10 the -- about your not overly interfering in the
11 relationships between the witness and his counsel. You
12 can ask for some information, but you should always be
13 concerned about the code of ethics. All right?
14 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President.
15 Q. Mr. Katava, did you yourself select the pool
16 of documents from which the documents contained in this
17 file were selected?
18 A. No, Your Honour, I did not make a selection
19 of any documents. I simply corroborated the
20 authenticity of the documents that I had seen. Among
21 these documents are some that I had personally drafted,
22 but I did not select them.
23 Q. Are there many more documents similar to
24 these at the Busovaca police station?
25 A. Probably. Notes similar to these.
1 Q. And those notes would fall into the same
2 categories as are listed in A to K on this index. In
3 fact, A to G, because that's all we're dealing with
4 today.
5 A. Well, Your Honour, probably, because we took
6 note of everything we did. These documents are more or
7 less the same like these, made according to the same
8 principle, that is.
9 Q. Now, you have just stated that, in fact, a
10 number of the documents in this selection were drafted
11 by you. Now, for how many years have you worked at the
12 Busovaca police station?
13 A. Your Honours, I did not set aside these
14 documents. I simply said that among these documents
15 are some that I had personally drafted, but I did not
16 distinguish between the documents in any way.
17 Q. Mr. Katava, I asked you how many years you'd
18 served in the Busovaca police station.
19 A. From 1977 I have been working in the Busovaca
20 police station. For three years before that I worked
21 in the Teslic police station.
22 Q. And you are very familiar with the way
23 documents are drafted at the police station, with your
24 over 20 years of experience?
25 A. Yes, I am familiar with the way in which
1 these documents are drafted.
2 Q. Now, if we can turn to document 13, which I
3 think is a document that you drafted. Do you have that
4 in front of you?
5 A. Yes, Your Honours.
6 Q. Now, you'll see underneath the title of the
7 document there is a file number. Can you explain to
8 the Judges how the file numbering system worked at the
9 Busovaca police station?
10 A. I think that this is the protocol of the
11 Busovaca police station. This is an official note, and
12 it was registered, and it concerns a certain event.
13 Q. And every official document that was drafted
14 at the police station had a protocol number like this
15 one?
16 A. I don't know whether every one of them had
17 one, but every official document is supposed to have a
18 protocol number.
19 Q. So every official document that was drafted
20 at the police station had a file number; is that
21 correct?
22 A. I cannot claim that every document had one,
23 Your Honour, I can only speak of the documents I see in
24 front of me, but it is customary practice in any
25 institution to have file numbers. That is as much as I
1 know about protocols.
2 Q. And you yourself, of course, worked in the
3 police station for more than 20 years; didn't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And during that time it was customary, it was
6 practice, for all official documents to have file
7 numbers attached to them, wasn't it, Mr. Katava?
8 A. Yes. For as long as the system functioned,
9 that's the way we did it. We, the policemen, wrote our
10 notes and the protocol was then taken care of by other
11 people, because I would simply draft a report, and then
12 I would give this to my superiors who would then deal
13 with the protocol. I didn't interfere with the
14 protocol. Our job was to submit the documents that we
15 would write to our superior officers and that was it.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Katava. Now, if we can turn
17 to tab F, section F. Now, I think these are statements
18 of Muslims desiring to leave Busovaca; is that
19 correct? Mr. Katava, is this the section that deals
20 with the statements of Muslims desiring to leave
21 Busovaca?
22 A. Please allow me, Your Honours, to have a look
23 at this document.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, of course. Go ahead.
25 A. Yes, that is the section that speaks of the
1 voluntary departures and stating the reasons why they
2 were leaving.
3 MR. CAYLEY:
4 Q. And that accords with the index which is in
5 English at the front of this exhibit.
6 Now let us look at Exhibit 36. Now, this, I
7 think, which is again part of this section on the
8 statements of Muslims desiring to leave Busovaca, is a
9 statement taken from a Muslim soldier summoned to the
10 Busovaca police station and asked a number of questions
11 about the conflict in January of 1993.
12 A. Yes, Your Honours. This document is a
13 statement made by a friend of mine, the one I mentioned
14 yesterday. He came of his own free will and said what
15 he did. He said that his wife and children went to
16 Kacuni and that he stayed there, and that he is
17 prepared to co-operate. That's the only thing it says,
18 nothing else.
19 I mean, we did not question him. He came to
20 the station of his own free will, and he gave this
21 statement to my colleague. I personally know the
22 gentlemen who made this statement.
23 Q. But this statement generally concerns a
24 Muslim soldier speaking to the authorities about his
25 role in the conflict in January, does it not,
1 Mr. Katava?
2 A. He came on his own and he said what he wanted
3 to say, and my colleagues simply wrote this down and
4 that is what is in this document.
5 Q. Mr. Katava, you're not answering my
6 question. My question is this: This statement is
7 describing the role of a Muslim soldier in the conflict
8 in January; isn't it? It has nothing to do with that
9 man's voluntary departure from the municipality of
10 Busovaca. The Judges have the statement in front of
11 them.
12 A. Yes. This man came voluntarily and explained
13 the role he had in Busovaca at that time. Nobody
14 forced him to do it. And all this information was
15 written down by my colleague and entered in this
16 document.
17 Q. Let's move on to document 37. Now, this, I
18 think, is a document where five Muslim males -- I think
19 they're males but certainly five Muslims -- are asking
20 for approval from the police station in Busovaca to
21 leave the municipality on a voluntary basis; is that
22 correct?
23 A. Yes, Your Honour. This document states that
24 we had a regular practice to take statements from
25 people who wished to leave Busovaca voluntarily.
1 Q. Mr. Katava, why was it necessary for people
2 who were volunteering to leave the municipality to seek
3 your approval?
4 A. We had instructions to protect people, to see
5 whether someone was mistreating them, to see whether
6 somebody was forcing them to leave. For those reasons.
7 Q. But why was it necessary for an individual
8 who wished to leave of their own free will to obtain a
9 permit to leave the municipality?
10 MR. HAYMAN: Asked and answered, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps the answer was not
12 complete. Mr. Cayley, you can continue with the
13 question. It's a relevant question. Go ahead,
14 Mr. Cayley.
15 Mr. Katava, try to answer. Why would
16 somebody of his own free will ask for authorisation to
17 leave the city?
18 Mr. Hayman, did you want to say something
19 further?
20 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, he answered the
21 question point-blank, straight on, and for the question
22 to be repeated and for the Court to admonish him is
23 serious.
24 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Hayman, I was set on English
25 and not French. I did not understand the answer.
1 MR. HAYMAN: May I explain?
2 JUDGE RIAD: Well, you give us the answer.
3 MR. HAYMAN: Well, I won't give the answer,
4 Your Honour, but I can state what the witness stated.
5 Mr. Cayley said: Why would it be necessary for a
6 person to come to the police station to get a permit
7 who wanted to leave the municipality? The witness
8 said: We were instructed to do so, to interact with
9 these people, because it was our job to protect them
10 and make sure they weren't being forced to leave.
11 So by regulating the departure of people, it
12 was an effort, according to the witness, to make sure
13 they weren't being intimidated, threatened, and forced
14 to leave. He has answered the question in a very
15 poignant and pointed way.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, by speaking too
17 long, you begin to dictate the answers that you might
18 prefer to hear the witness say. I have to ensure
19 balance in these proceedings.
20 Mr. Cayley, take into account the answer that
21 you have been given, but you can go on with the same
22 theme; that is, to know how or why, in a free city,
23 people could not come in or go out normally? I think
24 this would be of interest to the Judges. It is true
25 that I don't want you to ask the question exactly in
1 the same way.
2 MR. CAYLEY:
3 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, we'll move on to
4 mistreatment of people within the municipality. Simply
5 this: Why was it necessary for an individual who
6 wished to leave of their own free will to obtain a
7 permit from the police station so to do?
8 A. Your Honours, at that time, checkpoints had
9 been set up. There was a curfew in order to prevent
10 crime, and we had instructions that we talk to these
11 people, question them, and see why they were leaving
12 Busovaca; and with their permits, they could then go
13 across these checkpoints if they expressed the desire
14 to leave, but only once we had ascertained that nobody
15 had forced them to leave or had mistreated them.
16 Q. Why was it necessary for them to hand their
17 keys over to the police, the keys to their houses?
18 A. No, this was not compulsory for everybody.
19 Those who left from other people's houses would leave
20 those keys which would be handed over to the centre for
21 social work and for the refugees, the refugee centres.
22 Q. Let's look at Exhibit 37 where it states in
23 respect to five individuals leaving. When they were
24 leaving, they brought the keys to their houses to the
25 police station and handed them in.
1 Why were those keys handed in to the police
2 station, Mr. Katava?
3 A. In this document, Your Honours, you can see
4 that these are refugees from Jajce, Doboj, Rogatica, so
5 they were taken in in Busovaca and accommodated in
6 other people's houses. Once they left Busovaca, it
7 would be normal for them to return the keys because the
8 houses weren't their property, and they went of their
9 own free will to join up with their families.
10 Q. Let's look at documents 38 and 39,
11 Mr. Katava. Now, document 38 is again a statement, an
12 official note being made by a Muslim leaving Busovaca
13 who is required to make an affirmative statement that
14 he's neither being mistreated by the police or by any
15 citizens in Busovaca. Were Muslims mistreated by the
16 police in Busovaca?
17 A. No, Your Honour. From this document, one can
18 see that statements were not taken -- this is just a
19 note taken by the policeman when he questioned this
20 particular individual, and from these notes, you can
21 see that I myself was present, and that when the man
22 put forward his reasons, we allowed him to leave
23 Busovaca with his family, and my own name is mentioned
24 in this document. So we did not mistreat anybody. I
25 personally never mistreated anybody.
1 Q. Why was it necessary for an individual to
2 make an affirmative statement that they had not been
3 mistreated by the police, Mr. Katava?
4 A. This is official notes or records, Your
5 Honour, made by a policeman written on the basis of the
6 talk he had with the individual in question mentioned
7 in the document.
8 Q. Mr. Katava, again, you're not answering my
9 question. Why was it necessary for an individual
10 Muslim leaving Busovaca to make an affirmative
11 statement that they had not been mistreated by the
12 police?
13 A. Your Honours, I think that I have answered.
14 We did not insist that people make affirmative
15 statements saying that the police did not mistreat
16 them. This was just an observation made by the
17 particular policeman saying that the man had left of
18 his own free will and that he had not been mistreated
19 by anybody, and that is the statement, what the man
20 told the policeman, and the policeman made his own
21 notes and wrote them down.
22 Q. Let's go to document 39, Mr. Katava. Now,
23 again, I think in this statement, it states in the
24 first paragraph: "I remained in the house where I also
25 did not have any problems such as harassment by the
1 local inhabitants of Busovaca or the police."
2 So the same phrase is in this official note
3 as well, isn't it, Mr. Katava?
4 A. Just one moment, please, Your Honour, for me
5 to read the statement, if I may?
6 Q. The last sentence, first paragraph.
7 A. This document was also drawn up by the same
8 policeman as the one a moment ago and probably this is
9 the form in which he wrote these official documents,
10 and this is a statement in this case, the statement
11 that the individual gave to the policeman who was my
12 colleague.
13 Q. Muslims were mistreated by the police,
14 weren't they, Mr. Katava, in Busovaca, and that's why
15 it was necessary in these documents for these people to
16 state that they were not being mistreated by the
17 police? That was required for them to be able to
18 leave, wasn't it, Mr. Katava?
19 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, my learned
20 colleague is not asking questions, he is entering into
21 a discussion of opinions with the witness.
22 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Cayley, Mr. Nobilo is
23 right. Ask your question, but make a comment at
24 another time. Ask the question, ask it clearly.
25 MR. CAYLEY:
1 Q. Let's move on to document 40, Mr. Katava, and
2 here I think if you look in the second paragraph,
3 you'll find that it states: "I had no problems when
4 the fighting broke out or afterwards and was not
5 mistreated by members of the HVO."
6 A. What is your question, Your Honours?
7 Q. In the previous three documents, Mr. Katava,
8 we have seen that every single Muslim who wanted to
9 leave had to state that they were not either being
10 mistreated by the HVO or by the police. It was a
11 standard requirement, wasn't it, Mr. Katava, that
12 Muslims had to make that declaration before they could
13 leave Busovaca?
14 A. It was not a requirement, Your Honour. We
15 had this standard practice, to ask them for protection
16 purposes, why they were leaving, had they been
17 mistreated, had they been beaten, had they been thrown
18 out and mistreated? So in this statement, it clearly
19 states the reasons why this individual is leaving
20 Busovaca with his family because he has a family living
21 outside Busovaca and wants to join up with that part of
22 his family. Nobody mistreated these individuals or
23 forced them to make statements of this kind. Quite
24 simply, people asked to leave, and you know what it's
25 like in a war.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, if a Muslim wanted to enter
2 the municipality of Busovaca from outside, did they
3 also require permission or a permit from the police?
4 A. At that time, they had to go to the police
5 and say why they had come, state why they had come.
6 Q. I think that document 41 is, in fact, an
7 example of that, is it not?
8 A. May I have a few minutes to look through it?
9 Q. Please.
10 A. Yes, Your Honours, this is an official note
11 made by my colleague, the policeman, from which we can
12 see that Mr. Muminovic, with his wife, had come to
13 Busovaca during the cease-fire and that he was brought
14 by a neighbour, Milinovic, a Croat. That is what is
15 noted in this document, nothing else. That is to say,
16 that the man had returned from Vitez to Busovaca with
17 his wife.
18 Q. This document also notes that he had returned
19 without a previous approval or entry permit issued by
20 the Busovaca police station, doesn't it, Mr. Katava?
21 A. It means that Mr. Muminovic did not report to
22 the police station, and the policeman took note of the
23 fact that he did not come to the police station but
24 went home, and he went home because a friend,
25 Mr. Milinovic, had brought him home.
1 Q. If an individual arrived in Busovaca without
2 approval or an entry permit, would they be summoned to
3 the police station in Busovaca?
4 A. They would not, Your Honours, because the
5 police has its own method of work. The policeman in
6 the field would ascertain why the man had come. He
7 would talk to him. He would get information as to why
8 the person had arrived.
9 Q. Well, let's look at document 42 in which an
10 individual arrived in Busovaca without a permit and who
11 was, in fact, you'll see, at the top of this document,
12 summoned to appear at the police station. Now, this
13 man was summoned, wasn't he, to the Busovaca police
14 station, because he didn't have a permit to be living
15 in Busovaca?
16 A. No, Your Honours, this individual was not
17 summoned. We are dealing with two people here who were
18 arrested by the police during the curfew and taken to
19 the police station. So it was curfew. They were
20 moving around during the curfew, two unknown
21 individuals, and they were taken to the police station
22 at Busovaca, and this is the statement which says that
23 they were taken to the police station during the curfew
24 hours.
25 Q. Let's go to document 43, Mr. Katava. Now,
1 this document concerns two individuals who had come to
2 visit relatives in Busovaca, two individuals, and they
3 needed a permit even whilst on a visit simply to get
4 out of Busovaca again, didn't they?
5 A. May I read through the document, please, Your
6 Honours?
7 Q. Please.
8 JUDGE JORDA: I don't have to tell you each
9 time, Mr. Katava, but every time you want to read one,
10 of course, you can, before you answer any of the
11 Prosecutor's questions.
12 A. Your Honours, this is an individual who
13 wished to return to Busovaca because they did not have
14 the means of livelihood here. It is a refugee from
15 Jajce, and his wife and children were in Janjici near
16 Zenica, and he had gone to Busovaca to get the means
17 for a livelihood. He entered Busovaca during the
18 curfew, and that is what this document states, that he
19 entered Busovaca while the curfew was in force, and I
20 think that that is what the document states.
21 Q. You're looking at the wrong document,
22 Mr. Katava. It's document 43. I think you are looking
23 at document 42.
24 A. Forty-three?
25 Q. Forty-three.
1 A. Forty-three. I have number 43.
2 Q. Mine may be misnumbered. Document 43, does
3 it begin: "Compiled on 29 March, 1993 on the premises
4 of the Busovaca police station"?
5 A. Yes, that's how it begins, and it is about
6 Mr. Cazim Arnautovic.
7 Q. That's document 42. I think if you turn to
8 your next document ...
9 A. The number I have is 43.
10 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Nobilo, I have the same
11 numbering system as you.
12 MR. NOBILO: Yes. What I have is Cazim
13 Arnautovic number 42, whereas Senad Dindic is 43.
14 Senad Dindic is 43. And you should have the same. So
15 the note is "Compiled on 29 March, '93" for Senad
16 Dindic. Have you found it?
17 A. Yes, I have found it, but I have number 42.
18 It's numbered as 42.
19 JUDGE RIAD: It was number 42 and now it is
20 43 in my copy.
21 MR. CAYLEY: I think everybody else, Judge
22 Riad, has 43 apart from the witness.
23 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I apologise.
24 There seems to be an error by my associates compiling
25 this file. I would now like to say that Senad Dindic
1 is 43 and Cazim Arnautovic would be 42. So that the
2 minority can put this right. So Senad Dindic was 43
3 and Cazim Arnautovic was 42 and the date is the same.
4 The official notes were written on the same date.
5 Probably that is why the error occurred.
6 MR. CAYLEY:
7 Q. Mr. Katava, have you had the opportunity to
8 read document 43?
9 A. I'll just take a few minutes to read it.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Forty-three after the
11 correction?
12 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Judge. I think your file
13 was correct. I think it was only the witness's.
14 JUDGE RIAD: You want Senad Dindic or --
15 MR. REGISTRAR: Dindic is 43.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Are you finished Mr. Katava?
17 A. Yes, Your Honour. These are two persons,
18 Esad Kalauzovic and Senad Dindic. It is obvious from
19 this document as well that these two persons were
20 moving around during the curfew, and, therefore, they
21 were brought into the police station. As they were
22 brought in, they expressed a wish to leave Busovaca,
23 with their families, and all of that can be seen from
24 this document.
25 So they were moving around during the curfew
1 and they were brought into the station, these two
2 persons, Esad -- sorry Senad Dindic and Esad
3 Kalauzovic.
4 MR. CAYLEY:
5 Q. In fact, Mr. Katava, these two individuals
6 came to Busovaca, and 12 people left; didn't they? Ten
7 members of their family left with them after they'd
8 been to the police station.
9 A. Your Honour, it says here, literally, as they
10 expressed the wish to leave with their -- to take their
11 families to Zenica, this wish of theirs was granted and
12 then they left. This is probably a mistake; they left
13 on the 29th with their families. They could not leave
14 without their families when they were in Busovaca.
15 Q. But these two individuals had come from
16 outside the Busovaca municipality, Mr. Katava, to
17 Busovaca initially; isn't that right?
18 A. These individuals, and it says so here very
19 nicely, Your Honours, it says that they were moving
20 around during the curfew. They and their families were
21 staying in Busovaca, and after that they asked to leave
22 Busovaca.
23 Q. So your testimony is that these two Muslim
24 males were walking around during curfew hours, they
25 were collected by the police, taken to the police
1 station, and then suddenly just decided to leave
2 Busovaca with their families? Is that your testimony?
3 A. Your Honours, I repeat what this document
4 says. This document was written by a colleague of
5 mine, a policeman, and it says here, literally, that
6 they were brought in by the police after they were
7 asked for their IDs, and the reason for this was they
8 were walking around during curfew hours. Also, that a
9 conversation was carried out with them afterwards why
10 they were walking around during curfew hours, and they
11 said they had come to see their relatives who were
12 staying in the house of Bitic Ramiza, to see them
13 there, to see their relatives.
14 Q. Then it goes on to say, Mr. Katava, that
15 after the interview, in your presence and the presence
16 of Nikica Petrovic, these two gentlemen asked for a
17 permit enabling them and their families to leave
18 Busovaca municipality. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, that is what it says here, Your Honour,
20 that after the conversation they asked to leave
21 Busovaca.
22 Q. Let's move on to the next document, which is
23 document 44. Now, this, I think, is a document where
24 this gentlemen asked three times to voluntarily leave
25 Busovaca.
1 A. Do you please repeat the number once again?
2 Q. Document 44.
3 A. Your Honours, Faik Kresevljak is number 44
4 and this pertains to another person. This man is from
5 Busovaca. I know him personally, Faik Kresevljak.
6 Q. Why did this gentlemen have to ask three
7 times to voluntarily leave Busovaca?
8 A. I personally know Faik, this individual.
9 This is a person whose mental health is not all that
10 great, and you will see, Your Honours, that he and his
11 wife kept coming to the police all the time, because it
12 was great fun for them to come to the police. They
13 lived on their own, they had nothing else to do, and
14 they had something to report all the time. Why he said
15 this, that is his own personal affair, but what he said
16 was also reported in this statement. I mean, I think
17 that finally this individual did leave the municipality
18 of Busovaca of his own free will.
19 Q. And I think the final document, document 45,
20 is, again, a Muslim being required to have a permit to
21 re-enter the municipality of Busovaca.
22 A. Yes. This document also speaks of a lady
23 whom I know. Before the conflict she left Busovaca.
24 She went to the area of Vitez, and at this time she
25 returned to Busovaca. She returned during curfew
1 hours, and that is why the police interviewed her. And
2 she made a statement to the police that she came on
3 foot via a certain checkpoint, and you can't see
4 anything else from here.
5 She returned during curfew hours, and she
6 made a statement to the police that she came on foot
7 from Vitez to Busovaca, and that before the conflict
8 she went to Vitez, and this is to say that she returned
9 at this time.
10 Q. Let me read to you the third paragraph:
11 "Because of the curfew and restrictions on movement,
12 the above named has asked, on a number of occasions, to
13 be allowed to return to Busovaca, and since a permit is
14 needed both to enter and leave Busovaca, on 29 March,
15 1993 she arrived in Busovaca without the necessary
16 entry permit."
17 Now, my question is this: It was the
18 requirement for Muslims to have a permit from the
19 police to either leave or enter the municipality,
20 wasn't it, Mr. Katava?
21 A. No, Your Honours. This is to say that
22 everybody needed a permit to move around during curfew
23 hours. Everybody had to have a permit in order to be
24 allowed to walk around during curfew hours.
25 This is not a gentlemen, this is a lady Enisa
1 Merdan. I know her personally. It says here that she
2 left Busovaca before the conflict. She went to Vitez,
3 and then she came back via this checkpoint on foot,
4 which she told my colleagues. So no one is allowed to
5 move around during curfew hours without a specific
6 permit. This is police work, and one knows who is
7 allowed to move around during curfew hours. It did not
8 pertain only to Muslims, it pertained to all citizens.
9 Q. If you look at this document, in the final
10 paragraph, Mr. Katava, you'll find that she, in fact,
11 arrived at 2.00 in the afternoon on the 29th of March,
12 1993. Do you see that?
13 A. Yes, I see that.
14 Q. Was that curfew hour, 2.00 in the afternoon?
15 A. Yes, yes. All the time. The curfew was on
16 for 24 hours a day.
17 Q. So your testimony to the Court is there was a
18 24-hour curfew? Nobody at all was allowed out on the
19 streets without a permit from the police?
20 A. For reasons of safety and security. We've
21 already taken care of this. We've said this before.
22 Q. So am I correct in saying that anybody,
23 Muslim or Croat, needed permission from the police in
24 Busovaca to be moving about in the street at any time
25 of the day?
1 A. During the curfew one had to have a permit,
2 and when it is not curfew hours --
3 Q. Mr. Katava, what were the hours of curfew?
4 A. Well, it depends on the people who reached
5 this decision on curfew hours.
6 Q. You've just stated to the Court that curfew
7 was 24 hours a day. Was it not 24 hours a day?
8 A. During one period of time it was, Your
9 Honours, but I cannot remember exactly which period
10 this was, but probably it was that period. If it says
11 here that it was during curfew hours, then it was
12 during curfew hours, because I trust the colleague who
13 wrote this.
14 Q. So your testimony is that at 2.00 on the 29th
15 of March, 1993, this woman was travelling during curfew
16 hours and that's why she needed a permit to re-enter
17 Busovaca?
18 A. I'm not asserting that, Your Honour. I'm
19 simply stating what this document says. My colleague
20 said that this person was moving about during curfew
21 hours and that is what it says here.
22 Q. Where does it say in the final paragraph that
23 she arrived during curfew hours, Mr. Katava?
24 A. In the last paragraph, Your Honours, it says
25 that she arrived on foot, that she had hitchhiked, she
1 stopped a vehicle that was going towards Busovaca, and
2 then from the checkpoint at Sunce she continued, went
3 on foot and entered Busovaca. As she entered Busovaca,
4 she did not have any problems because probably people
5 knew her. I mean, the persons manning the checkpoint
6 at Sunce probably knew her and allowed her to go home.
7 Q. It doesn't say anything about a curfew, does
8 it, Mr. Katava, at 2.00 in the afternoon?
9 A. In the last paragraph, no mention is made of
10 the curfew.
11 Q. Now, all of these documents in section F --
12 A. I'm sorry, Your Honours, but there's
13 something wrong with the volume.
14 Q. Mr. Katava, is your headset working
15 satisfactorily now?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, all of these documents, from 36 to 45,
18 do you recall, earlier in your testimony, you stated it
19 was customary for documents to have a protocol number?
20 You will find that not one of these documents has a
21 protocol number. Have those numbers been removed,
22 Mr. Katava?
23 A. No, Your Honours. You saw the document that
24 I had personally drafted. As an experienced policeman,
25 I wrote a certain protocol number which I knew from
1 earlier on, and this document was done by a colleague
2 of mine who did not take care of the protocol. He
3 simply left a space for the number and the date. This
4 was done by my colleague.
5 Q. You said earlier in your testimony,
6 Mr. Katava, that you didn't insert the protocol
7 numbers, that it was done by your superiors. Do you
8 recall that?
9 A. No. I said, Your Honours, that we had the
10 following practice in the police, and this practice
11 prevails to the present day, that the policeman writes
12 a document and submits it to his superior officer, and
13 the policeman did not take care of the protocol.
14 Q. So from documents 36 to 45, on each of these
15 occasions the police officer forgot to insert a file
16 number. If you can find a file number on any of these
17 documents, Mr. Katava, I would be very interested,
18 because it means you have a different set than me. Are
19 there any file numbers on any of these documents?
20 A. I did not understand the question, Your
21 Honours.
22 Q. Did you indicate, on any of the documents
23 between 36 and 45, whether any of those documents have
24 a file number?
25 A. No, not here. It only states the date.
1 Also, there is a space left for the protocol. But the
2 documents are authentic.
3 Q. You stated earlier that it was standard
4 practice to insert a protocol number, didn't you,
5 Mr. Katava?
6 A. I said that from my experience as a
7 policeman, Your Honours, that before it was the
8 prevailing practice, but this was wartime, and I put a
9 number on one of these documents because I tried to be
10 a smart guy, because I've been a policeman for so
11 long. But the other documents were done by my
12 colleagues, and they simply didn't do it.
13 Q. Now, we've established, have we not,
14 Mr. Katava, that Muslim and Croats needed a permit from
15 your police station to either enter or exit the town of
16 Busovaca during curfew hours?
17 A. Yes, Your Honours.
18 Q. If the witness could be shown Exhibit
19 456/12.
20 Now, while you're waiting for that document,
21 Mr. Katava, am I right in saying that your police
22 station in Busovaca answered to the police station in
23 Travnik? Travnik was the regional police station?
24 A. No, Your Honours. To the police department
25 in Travnik. The police department in Travnik, during
1 the conflict, was removed to Vitez and its headquarters
2 was in Travnik. So it was called the police department
3 Travnik, located in Vitez.
4 Q. Now, you will see --
5 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Would you repeat
6 that, please?
7 MR. CAYLEY:
8 Q. Now, this is an order from the then
9 Colonel Blaskic to allow people to return to their
10 homes, and it's a joint order, you can see, signed by
11 Colonel Blaskic and signed by Enver Hadzihasanovic. Do
12 you see, in paragraph 3, that it states that unimpeded
13 and safe movement be ensured for the whole population
14 throughout the free territory? The order is dated the
15 13th of February, 1993. It's a command, it's an order,
16 and the Travnik police department is on that command.
17 Now, Mr. Katava, why were you requiring
18 Muslims to obtain permits to leave and enter Busovaca
19 if an order had been issued by Hadzihuseinovic and
20 Colonel Blaskic to allow the free and unimpeded
21 movement of the population throughout the area of the
22 Central Bosnian Operative Zone?
23 A. Your Honour, I can't answer this. I was a
24 plain policeman. I did not make any decisions. I
25 simply carried out the duties that were given to me. I
1 can't really comment on this.
2 Q. Mr. Katava, did you know, at the time when
3 you were issuing these permits to Muslims, that they
4 were supposed to be allowed to move freely throughout
5 the territory in Busovaca?
6 A. Well, it was precisely with the intention of
7 ensuring their free movement that we talked to them and
8 gave them permits to leave, or to come back or whatever
9 at their initiative, because they requested us to do
10 this for them for the purposes of their own security,
11 and we tried to protect them from mistreatment,
12 assaults by individuals and criminal groups, et
13 cetera. So it was the same reason. We did not want to
14 restrict their freedom of movement, because there could
15 not be freedom of movement if there were checkpoints.
16 Civilians had to be cautious. They had to know when
17 they would move around, when they would cross these
18 checkpoints, because there was always a danger of them
19 being wounded. The frontline was nearby. It's a very
20 small area, too.
21 Q. So your testimony to the Judges is that by
22 seeking permission -- by Muslims seeking permission to
23 exit or enter Busovaca, this was a means of actually
24 ensuring the free movement of the population throughout
25 Central Bosnia?
1 A. Among other things, it was the right way for
2 a person to go from Busovaca to Zenica safely, because
3 the frontline was in between. If one crossed the
4 frontline on his own, one could get killed.
5 Q. Let's move to section C of these documents.
6 Now, documents 27 to 31 concern damage to the mosque in
7 Busovaca in the period from September of 1993 to May of
8 1994.
9 Mr. Katava, what was the month of 1993 in
10 which you first started investigating damage to the
11 mosque?
12 A. Your Honours, in document 27, this is an
13 eyewitness statement, and I immediately started
14 investigations concerning this matter. The mosque was
15 looted, and one can see here that it was the
16 loudspeakers and the rugs, the Hodza were taken away.
17 We worked on this particular matter, and this is an
18 eyewitness statement that I had personally written. It
19 also says that -- that I carried out the investigation
20 in the presence of the Hodza and the head of the
21 Islamic community.
22 Q. And that was first done in September of 1993;
23 wasn't it?
24 A. Yes. This happened during -- between the 1st
25 and 2nd of September, 1993, and I was there. I carried
1 out the investigation, and I made this file and this
2 file probably still exists.
3 Q. Did you investigate damage to the mosque in
4 February of 1993?
5 A. I cannot recall and there is not a document
6 of this nature here.
7 Q. The Judges in this court have heard testimony
8 that as early as February of 1993 the mosque in
9 Busovaca had been damaged. Were you aware of that?
10 A. No, Your Honours, I was not.
11 Q. Did you investigate damage to any other
12 Muslim religious sites, structures or buildings in the
13 municipality of Busovaca?
14 A. No. This is the only building belonging to
15 the Islamic community that was destroyed -- damaged
16 during the war in Busovaca. Everything else remained
17 intact. The monuments, everything else. It is only
18 this building that was damaged during the war, and
19 there are documents relating to that here too. But the
20 fact remains that we worked, that we intervened, and
21 that we took care of it and that we carried out
22 inspections.
23 Q. How many police officers were working at the
24 Busovaca police station in April of 1993?
25 A. Your Honours, most of the policemen were
1 engaged in defence, and there were three or four of us
2 there, regular police officers there. I said this
3 yesterday. We had various teams for carrying out
4 investigations on the site. There were some 20 of us
5 doing all the different duties, whereas the other
6 policemen were engaged on the frontlines, defence
7 lines, and they were defending.
8 MR. CAYLEY: If we can now move to section E
9 of the file, and I've been advised by Mr. Nobilo that
10 we'll move into closed session at this time.
11 Mr. President, if we could have a closed session.
12 MR. NOBILO: We agree, but I should like to
13 indicate the time. We had overstepped the one hour
14 limit.
15 JUDGE JORDA: But the Judges have consulted
16 with one another. We consider that these are important
17 points. We will leave Mr. Cayley the time he needs,
18 but if you go over the time it won't be counted against
19 you, Mr. Nobilo. Would you like to take a break?
20 MR. CAYLEY: I mean, Mr. President, I
21 understand the point my learned friend is making, and I
22 will try and move as quickly as possible. I don't
23 think it's going to take another hour, but it is more
24 than I originally anticipated. I apologise to the
25 Court for that. It may now be an appropriate time to
1 take a break.
2 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We're going to take
3 a break and then we'll have a closed session for tab E,
4 and we will respect the rules of balance here, and the
5 Defence will have an equal amount of time.
6 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
8 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing
9 now. Have the accused brought in.
10 (The accused entered court)
11 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We can resume now.
12 I think that there was a request from the Defence for a
13 closed session. Is that all right with the
14 Prosecution?
15 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I just have
16 actually one question, one or two questions before
17 that, and then we can move into a closed session.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. All right. Ask
19 them.
20 MR. CAYLEY:
21 Q. Prior to the break, Mr. Katava, we were
22 speaking of curfew hours. Are you aware of the
23 individual who set the curfew hours in Busovaca?
24 A. No, I'm not. I don't know who ordered the
25 curfew.
1 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
2 Prosecutor's Exhibit 507?
3 Q. You will see this is an order dated the 7th
4 of January, 1993, to HVO Central Bosnian Operative Zone
5 brigades, HVO municipal authorities, and the Vitez
6 Regional Military Police, and it's to supplement an
7 order of the 5th of December and it's an order from
8 Colonel Blaskic.
9 Now, paragraph 1 concerns the opening hours
10 of hotel and catering establishments, and paragraph 2,
11 if you look at paragraph 2, it states the curfew
12 hours. Paragraph 2(c): "The curfew hours are, in the
13 municipalities of Busovaca, Kiseljak, Kresovo, Vares,
14 Kakanj, and Zenica are from 2300 hours, 11.00 at night,
15 until 4.00 in the morning.".
16 A. Yes. We can see that. That is so from this
17 order.
18 Q. So when Enisa Merdan was moving through a
19 checkpoint at 2.00 in the afternoon in March of 1993,
20 there were no curfew hours in force, were there,
21 Mr. Katava?
22 A. You're probably right, Your Honours, but we
23 had to see who was coming in and going out for security
24 reasons, and citizens were duty-bound to report to the
25 police station, and anybody who wished to leave had to
1 say he was leaving. A citizen coming in to Busovaca in
2 normal times still is duty-bound to report to the
3 police station and say that he is residing there, and
4 in these extraordinary times, this was even more
5 necessary, the exits and entrances for safety reasons.
6 So it might not have been a curfew, but we had to know
7 who was entering Busovaca because this was a time of
8 war, because spies could have come or the enemy could
9 have come. So for our own personal safety, we had to
10 know who was moving around the town, and it is normal
11 procedure, standard practice, when you move around from
12 town to town and take up residence, to go to the police
13 station and tell them of that.
14 Q. So it was not true what you stated before,
15 that the reason this woman required a permit was
16 because she was moving around in curfew hours? That's
17 not correct, is it? In fact, it was for different
18 reasons.
19 A. I'm not quite clear what reasons. The
20 question isn't clear to me.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Katava, it is not a
22 two-edged question, it's a logical question. The
23 Prosecution counsel is asking how you can explain the
24 reasons that in document whatever number its number is,
25 there was a person about whom you said that she had not
1 obeyed the curfew rules at 2.00 in the afternoon. Now
2 you are being asked whether you are being consistent
3 with your initial answer.
4 A. Yes, Your Honours. Mrs. Enisa Merdan had
5 come via the checkpoint on foot and she was allowed to
6 enter the town, and my colleague talked to her and she
7 said that she had come to Busovaca and had not asked
8 for any permit to do so, and he questioned her with
9 regard to the circumstances under which she arrived in
10 Busovaca, and he noted that Mrs. Enisa Merdan had come
11 to Busovaca and was at present located in Busovaca,
12 nothing more than that. And that when passing the
13 checkpoints, she had no problems from the policemen or
14 anybody else. They probably knew her, they knew that
15 she was an inhabitant of Busovaca and so let her pass.
16 MR. CAYLEY:
17 Q. Prior to the break, Mr. Katava, you said that
18 this woman, Enisa Merdan, had entered Busovaca during
19 curfew hours. Why did you say that?
20 A. I did not say that in that way. I said that
21 that is what is written in the note from my colleague,
22 that she was moving around during curfew. I did not
23 say that she entered during curfew.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Katava, let's not
25 [interpretation cut off]. There was no mention of
1 curfews being there. It's a question of logic, you
2 see. Either you're changing your explanation, which is
3 your right. I think it's a question of logic. You've
4 got to go back to the transcript. Give your version
5 and then move to another question, and the Judges can
6 make their own evaluation, but let's not change the
7 version that you're giving constantly. That's what we
8 mean.
9 Yes, Mr. Nobilo?
10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I propose that we
11 place the document in front of Mr. Katava again, the
12 document on the arrival; and second, Mr. Katava, on the
13 first occasion and now, always said the same thing. He
14 said "I think it was a curfew," and that is why my
15 colleague wrote it down in his notes. He didn't say he
16 knew it was a curfew. He said that sometimes a curfew
17 would last for 24 hours and at other times for shorter
18 periods. So he has, in fact, changed nothing.
19 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the --
20 JUDGE JORDA: Your objection is not accepted,
21 Mr. Nobilo.
22 Mr. Cayley, continue asking questions in that
23 area until the witness gives testimony which is
24 consistent with what he has said up to this point.
25 Mr. Katava, you're working with professional
1 Judges who are listening to what you have to say. Try
2 to be logical. Let me remind you that the task in
3 which the right to require a certain coherence on the
4 part of the witnesses and some witnesses have to recall
5 that, remind some of the witnesses of that. You can
6 say what you like, but there must be a degree of logic
7 in what you're saying.
8 Mr. Cayley, go ahead. Go ahead in that area.
9 MR. CAYLEY:
10 Q. Mr. Katava, previously, prior to the break,
11 you stated that Enisa Merdan arrived in Busovaca in
12 March of 1993 during a curfew hour at 2.00 in the
13 afternoon. Do you recall that?
14 A. Your Honours, I said that that is what is
15 written in the official note of my colleague, a
16 policeman, that Enisa Merdan had arrived at that time,
17 because that is what is written in the note, in the
18 document, and I am just conveying what was written in
19 the note. I was not present when Mrs. Enisa Merdan
20 came. This was observed by my colleague, the
21 policeman, in his note.
22 Q. So now your testimony is that the reason she
23 needed a permit was because of security reasons rather
24 than the curfew?
25 A. Your Honours, I did not say that she needed a
1 permit to move around. A permit during curfew is
2 something that the Croats and Muslims need alike, and
3 Mrs. Enisa Merdan came, and my colleague observed, in
4 an official note, that she had come, that he had talked
5 to her regarding the circumstances of her arrival in
6 Busovaca.
7 Q. So you're now saying that Mrs. Enisa Merdan
8 did not, in fact, need a permit to move around either
9 to or from Busovaca; is that your testimony?
10 A. You cannot move around during a curfew; then
11 you need a permit to do so. The individual did not
12 seek a permit but she came on foot across the
13 checkpoint and nobody stopped her, and then my
14 colleague talked to her when she came home.
15 Q. But, Mr. Katava, this was at 2.00 in the
16 afternoon. There was no curfew.
17 A. I did not say that there was a curfew. I
18 said that in the note written by my colleague, that
19 that is what was stated.
20 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the transcript
21 will speak for itself on this matter. I'll move on.
22 If we could have a closed session, please?
23 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We'll move into
24 closed session.
25 (Closed session)
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