Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15827

1 Wednesday, 9th December, 1998

2 (Open session)

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Registrar,

5 have the accused brought in, please.

6 (The accused entered court)

7 JUDGE JORDA: Good afternoon to the

8 interpreters. Good afternoon to Defence and

9 Prosecution counsel and to the accused.

10 We can now proceed with Witness DO. Yes,

11 DO. All right, Witness DO should be brought into the

12 court, but that witness is covered by protective

13 measures, I am saying this for the public, because part

14 of his identity is going to be distorted.

15 Have the witness brought in, but be sure that

16 the curtains are drawn before having done so. All

17 right. The witness can be brought in now.

18 (The witness entered court)

19 JUDGE JORDA: The curtains can be raised

20 now.

21 Do you hear me, Witness DO?


23 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Please be seated.

24 Were you able to rest? I don't dare say, "Did you

25 relax," but at least have you rested a bit?

Page 15828


2 JUDGE JORDA: Do you feel all right?


4 JUDGE JORDA: Can you continue your

5 testimony?


7 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We thank you for

8 that.

9 Let me remind you that you are still under

10 oath and that this is the direct examination, that is,

11 the part of the trial which is conducted by the Defence

12 counsel. You are protected. Your face does not appear

13 on the screen. As I said, you have been covered by

14 protective measures. You are under the protection of

15 the Tribunal. You can speak without fear.

16 Let me also speak to the public. I know that

17 frequently academicians follow what we do. I'd like to

18 say good afternoon to those people as well, but I would

19 also like to say that certain testimonies and certain

20 evidence will be extremely difficult to hear. I say

21 this for the attention of the public gallery in case

22 you would not be able to bear that kind of testimony.

23 Having said so, Mr. Nobilo, you can proceed.

24 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. I

25 should like to say that the photograph we had

Page 15829

1 previously when we completed our examination on Monday

2 afternoon shall be placed on the ELMO once again. It

3 is a horrible photograph showing half the body of the

4 husband of our witness. I would like to ask you to

5 turn the photograph around where the upper half of the

6 body can be seen which has been cut in two, and you can

7 see the spine partially.


9 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:

10 Q. Witness DO, we go back to this horrible

11 event, unhappy event. When were you delivered this

12 body?

13 A. On the 21st of January, 1994.

14 Q. Could you tell us what you heard from a

15 woman? Was your husband killed in the fighting? Was

16 he arrested? What happened?

17 A. My husband was arrested, taken prisoner.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted). They took the aunt

20 away to Zenica, and my husband, they kept my husband.

21 There were some rumours circulating that my husband was

22 arrested, but on the 21st of January, I came to

23 ascertain whether it was my husband or not. I did not

24 have the courage to go and identify the body, and his

25 father went, my father-in-law, in fact, to go and --

Page 15830

1 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I am

2 going to object. This line of question was covered at

3 the conclusion of the last session. We are repeating

4 rather graphic testimony that I think is unnecessary.

5 It does not add additional facts. We had, as I say,

6 this testimony previously.

7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President --

8 JUDGE JORDA: I feel, Mr. Nobilo, that this

9 has been spoken about. This is a particularly cruel

10 event for the witness. Perhaps you could ask your

11 question a different way, with a different objective,

12 or else don't ask it and move onto something else.

13 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I agree, but it

14 is quite a new thing that the witness heard that her

15 husband was taken prisoner alive, and another piece of

16 information that the witness heard, I would like it to

17 be entered into the transcript, the manner in which the

18 Muslims proceeded and what they did to her husband.

19 Q. What did they do to your husband?

20 A. I heard that he was placed on a stick,

21 impaled.

22 Q. What is that tradition in Bosnia, this

23 impalement tradition in Bosnia?

24 A. Well, when the Turks ruled over Bosnia, this

25 kind of thing was done.

Page 15831

1 Q. Thank you. We are now going to show you some

2 photographs.

3 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, while we are

4 preparing this material, it is a photographic report

5 composed by the police station in Vitez, and I should

6 like to avoid showing the first page of this

7 photographic report because you will be able to see the

8 village we are talking about, so if we leave out the

9 first page.

10 THE REGISTRAR: This is D457.

11 MR. NOBILO: So do not display page 1,

12 please, but page 2.

13 Q. Witness DO --

14 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Mr. Nobilo, could you

15 wait until we get a copy of the exhibit?

16 MR. NOBILO: Okay, sorry, of course.

17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, you are the judge

18 of your own strategy. Is it absolutely indispensable,

19 to show all these photos? I do not want to rule for

20 you, and, of course, the Rules allow us to do it, but,

21 of course, I do not want to make use of those powers.

22 The decision is ultimately yours, but try to make sure

23 that this is not gone into in overly great detail.

24 MR. NOBILO: Of course, Mr. President. After

25 the photographs, the point concerns the second part of

Page 15832

1 the body of Witness DO's husband that we wish to show.

2 But I would like to say something regarding

3 this witness and the witnesses this week and, perhaps,

4 later on. We are going to see a lot of brutalities, a

5 lot of blood, a lot of atrocities and horrors, but the

6 Defence feels it is necessary for the Trial Chamber to

7 see this to understand the conditions under which

8 General Blaskic had to act and to realise that people

9 become vindictive after horrors of this kind and that

10 this leads on to the chain of terror and

11 vindictiveness, and we don't take pleasure in looking

12 at photographs of this kind either, but terror breeds

13 terror.

14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, this conduct

15 which is reprehensible took place, I am told from the

16 previous testimony, January 9th, 1994, and its

17 relevancy is considerably attenuated given the date.

18 JUDGE JORDA: I believe that the indictment,

19 the second amended indictment, was something that I

20 checked on the other day when the witness began the

21 testimony. In the second indictment, it goes up to

22 January 1994. You did not specify anything further

23 than that; do we agree?

24 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Mr. President,

25 and that applies to the persecution count.

Page 15833

1 JUDGE JORDA: We are really going to the

2 furthest extremes of the indictment here, the furthest

3 limits.

4 MR. HAYMAN: This is one in a series of

5 unfortunate and continuing incidents which we think are

6 important. We'll withdraw it if January 1994 is to be

7 stricken from the indictment. We will withdraw the

8 testimony of this witness if it is outside the scope of

9 the indictment.

10 JUDGE JORDA: All right. These points have

11 been underscored. Continue, Mr. Nobilo, but with all

12 the legal and factual warnings that we have indicated.

13 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. So we are ready at

14 any time to withdraw if the date -- but for the moment,

15 this is covered by the indictment.

16 Q. Witness DO, do you recognise Drazen on this

17 photograph?

18 A. (No translation).

19 MR. NOBILO: I would like to ask the usher to

20 turn to the one but last photograph now which is marked

21 number 3.

22 Utanda Drazenko is on this photograph, and

23 the witness recognised him. It wasn't entered into the

24 transcript. So the one but last photograph of this

25 photographic report.

Page 15834

1 Q. Drazenko Utanda, could you tell us who that

2 is, Witness?

3 A. Drazen Utanda was there with us. He is from

4 Vitez.

5 Q. Is he a Croat?

6 A. No, he is not a Croat. He is a Serb.

7 Q. Did he live in the same village that you

8 lived in?

9 A. Yes, he did.

10 Q. Thank you. The one but last photograph,

11 please.

12 Witness DO, can you see, and you can look on

13 the original photograph, whether you recognise this

14 portion of the body? What is it?

15 A. Yes, that is it.

16 Q. You can look at the original photograph on

17 that apparatus there, on the ELMO.

18 Show it to the witness, please.

19 Take a look at the picture, the original

20 photo. Could you tell us into the microphone, please?

21 A. That is the lower half of my husband's body.

22 Q. Did you see that lower half?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Could you describe what this represents, what

25 part of the body?

Page 15835

1 A. Well, it is from the waist down. The legs, I

2 recognise them. I recognise the socks, the tracksuit.

3 I saw that with my very own eyes.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, please, at the

5 time you left your husband, did he have any weapons in

6 the house?

7 A. No, he had no weapons in the house. He was

8 not able to walk. He was on crutches, and he was not

9 military-able. Had he been so, he would not have been

10 in the house.

11 Q. Can you enumerate all the victims in the

12 village in which you lived, the ones that you can

13 remember at the present time? So don't tell us the

14 name of your husband, just say "my husband," but do you

15 know any other individuals who were killed?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, please?

18 A. Dragan Vidovic, Miro Vidovic, Drazen Vidovic,

19 Ankica Vidovic, Ankica Grbavac, Nikola Jankovic, Petar

20 Petkovic, Drazen Utanda, and Zvonko Santic. I don't

21 know any more.

22 Q. Was Stjepan Ramljak was killed?

23 A. Yes, Stjepan Ramljak.

24 Q. Was a two-year-old child killed?

25 A. Danijel Grbavac was a two-year-old child.

Page 15836

1 Q. Did the brother of Nevenka Buhic die?

2 A. He was wounded, as far as I know.

3 Q. And were eight soldiers killed belonging to

4 the Munja?

5 A. Yes, they were below the house where I

6 lived. That's where they were located. They slept

7 there, and they were caught while they were still in

8 bed, and I only know that that is where they were

9 killed.

10 Q. Could you tell the Court whether there were

11 other victims but that you cannot recall their names at

12 this present time?

13 A. Yes, that's true. There were others, but I

14 don't know their names. I was given a drip, an

15 infusion. It was difficult for me at that time, and it

16 is always very difficult for me. A lot of pain was

17 inflicted on me and my children, and it will last

18 throughout our lives, and probably I can't remember

19 everything that happened.

20 Q. Could you tell us whether these people

21 resisted or were they surprised?

22 A. No, these young men were sleeping, as far as

23 I know, down there, and as far as we were able to see

24 on the tapes, they were even tied.

25 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I would like to

Page 15837

1 show a video now. It is a BBC video from the village

2 in which Witness DO lived, and after we have been shown

3 the video, I have two or three more questions to ask

4 her in connection with the video.

5 May we have the lights dimmed as well,

6 please? We haven't got the picture yet. No videotape

7 yet.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Would you stop it, please? We

9 do not have any image.

10 THE REGISTRAR: There is a slight technical

11 problem. It won't take too long to fix it.

12 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We can proceed.

13 (Videotape played)

14 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. Could we repeat the

15 central part of the tape which was crucial? It was

16 nighttime, that is to say, it was dark. It was filmed

17 in the basement, but you will be able to see that the

18 hands of the people there were tied. So may we ask our

19 technical service to go back to that central part of

20 the tape, and this can be seen very well on the

21 original tape.

22 Q. Until then, I am going to ask you, Madam,

23 whether this is a scene from your village?

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)


Page 15838

1 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I think the film

2 that we saw was perfectly clear. I don't think there

3 is any need to see it a second time, and I would

4 object.

5 MR. HAYMAN: The problem is, Mr. President, I

6 viewed the original tape that we gave to the technical

7 unit, and you can see a lot more from the inside of

8 this basement on the original. It has been copied, I

9 think, for purposes of putting it on to a separate tape

10 for an exhibit, but something has happened in the copy,

11 and it is not visible. I don't know if they have the

12 original tape that we tendered and they can locate that

13 portion of that tape, so that at least Your Honours can

14 see it clearly once. That's the problem.

15 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, you are entitled to show

16 it a second time. It is legitimate for the parties to

17 show the evidence under the best technical conditions,

18 if possible, even if it is painful.

19 Do you want to continue asking questions

20 while the technical staff prepares the film?

21 MR. NOBILO: I can, but we just have a short

22 portion of the video to show. But I can go on to my

23 next question.

24 Q. You do not come from an area, from the area

25 where all this happened, you came from elsewhere; is

Page 15839

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did your husband know any Muslim in the place

4 in which he was killed?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So why do you think your husband was so

7 brutally killed?

8 A. Because he is a Croat, nothing else, just

9 because he was a Croat.

10 MR. NOBILO: May we now see the tape once

11 again, and after that the second part of the tape? And

12 a little more light, if we may have it, please.

13 (Videotape played)

14 MR. NOBILO: Stop. You can continue now,

15 thank you.

16 (Videotape played)

17 MR. NOBILO: We can continue and complete the

18 second portion, the last part of the tape that we

19 haven't seen yet. I would also like to caution the

20 audience that there will be brutal scenes. The next

21 tape comes to us from a private source and shows a

22 body.

23 (Videotape played)


25 Q. Is that your husband, madam?

Page 15840

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have concluded

3 the examination of this witness with this tape.

4 JUDGE JORDA: I think we will now turn to the

5 Office of the Prosecutor. Mr. Harmon, do you have some

6 questions that you want to ask Witness DO?

7 As you know, I've already told you, the

8 Prosecutor has the right to ask you questions. If you

9 need any assistance -- do you need to rest? Do you

10 need to take a break? Do you want to take a 10-minute

11 break? Because we can suspend the hearing for ten

12 minutes before the Prosecutor asks his questions.

13 Don't hesitate.

14 THE WITNESS: No, no, we may continue.

15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, proceed, please.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:


18 Q. Good afternoon, Witness DO. My name is Mark

19 Harmon, and to my right are my colleagues, Mr. Andrew

20 Cayley and Mr. Gregory Kehoe from the Prosecutor's

21 office. I have only a few questions to ask you, and I

22 would like you to, if you get uncomfortable at all or

23 get tired or fatigued or anxious, let me know and we

24 can take a break. I don't want to cause you any

25 further distress than you have already been caused.

Page 15841

1 Let me ask you, first off: The events that

2 you described, if I correctly understood, occurred on

3 the 9th of January in the year of 1994; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, I would like to show you Defence Exhibit

7 455.

8 MR. HARMON: And that is an exhibit that is

9 under seal, so I assume we have to go into private

10 session to take a look at the exhibit, and I would like

11 to put it on the ELMO.

12 Mr. Dubuisson, will 455 not be shown on the

13 ELMO?

14 JUDGE JORDA: We will go into a private

15 session for a few moments.

16 (Private session)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15842

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (Open session)

19 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, we have gone back

20 into public session now. Proceed, please.


22 Q. Witness DO, the nine members of the HVO who

23 lived in the lower part of the house where you and your

24 husband and your family lived, do you know if on

25 January the 9th, 1994 they had weapons in the lower

Page 15843

1 portion of the house?

2 A. No, I don't know that.

3 Q. Now, from your testimony, I understood that

4 shortly after the attack on the village started you and

5 two of your children immediately fled the house and

6 took refuge some distance away from that location; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you return to the village, to the

10 location of your former residence at any time prior to

11 the 21st of January, 1994?

12 A. Yes, yes, I did return, and I found my

13 husband, his jacket, rather. I saw it was cut in nine

14 places. I saw that with my own eyes.

15 Q. Do you remember the date when you returned to

16 the village?

17 A. No, no, that was after the burial of the

18 first part of his body, and I can't tell you the exact

19 date.

20 Q. The reason I ask you that question is, we

21 just had a film that was shown from BBC, and it said

22 that the fighting was taking place in the village, the

23 HVO was attempting to recapture the village, and that

24 that fighting had lasted 12 days.

25 Would it be fair to say that you returned to

Page 15844

1 your village sometime after the 21st of January?

2 A. I did not return in order to live there. I

3 got out with my children. I didn't have a thing. I

4 went back to get some things and the house had already

5 burned down. Downstairs I found two blankets that I

6 had already taken, so I just came by and I saw that.

7 But I went back. I didn't stay there. I didn't go

8 there to live there.

9 MR. HAYMAN: For clarity of the record, Mr.

10 President, the BBC film says it was attempting to

11 retake a village it had lost 12 days before. There

12 wasn't a reference to the fighting in the village, I

13 believe. Thank you.


15 Q. Witness DO, you listed a number of people you

16 recalled in the village who had been killed, and you

17 gave us a few minutes ago the names of those

18 individuals. My question is: Did you see any of those

19 people killed?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Are you aware there was a considerable combat

22 in your former village where the HVO attempted to and

23 ultimately succeeded in retaking the area where you had

24 lived?

25 A. No, no, I was no longer aware what was going

Page 15845

1 on.

2 Q. All right.

3 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, Witness DO, thank

4 you very much. Mr. President and Your Honours, I have

5 no additional questions. Thank you.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Do you want to add some

7 clarifications in the redirect, Mr. Nobilo?

8 MR. NOBILO: Yes, Mr. President. Just two

9 questions.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Nobilo:

11 Q. Witness DO, the people you enumerated, those

12 who were killed, as you said, were they killed when the

13 Muslims got into your village and killed your husband,

14 or were they killed afterwards when the HVO fought for

15 recapturing the village?

16 A. No, no, this was the morning when everybody

17 was being killed. All of these people were there while

18 I was there. It was hard for me to recognise

19 everyone. Perhaps someone stayed back, some of the

20 people, I couldn't remember, but all the people I

21 mentioned were there.

22 Q. The Prosecutor put a question to you

23 establishing that there were soldiers downstairs in

24 your house. Were the eight members of the Munjas in

25 your house or in the neighbouring house?

Page 15846

1 A. No, no, beneath my house, which was the first

2 next to the house where I lived.

3 Q. When you say "beneath my house," when you use

4 that expression, you mean the neighbouring house

5 further downhill; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, yes, I was a bit uphill and this house

7 was a bit downhill.

8 Q. So do you still maintain that there were no

9 weapons in your house?

10 A. No, there weren't.

11 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. We

12 offer into evidence D455, which is under seal, the map,

13 and D456, which is a photograph, and D457, also a

14 photograph under seal, the first page, rather, is under

15 seal, and then two video clips. We tender all of that

16 into evidence.

17 JUDGE JORDA: No objection from the

18 Prosecution?

19 MR. HARMON: No objection.

20 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Let me turn to my

21 colleagues. Do you have any questions to add, Judge

22 Riad? Judge Shahabuddeen, no questions? I have no

23 questions, either, to ask you, Witness DO.

24 The registrar is indicating something to me.

25 THE REGISTRAR: I want to say the first part

Page 15847

1 of the videotape will be 458A, that is the BBC version,

2 and the other one, the private film, was D458B.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Witness DO, you have shown a

4 great deal of courage, and we thank you for that. Try

5 to go home and to find the peace of mind and the

6 serenity that you need. The Tribunal thanks you.

7 Registrar, what are we going to do now to

8 ensure the protection of the witness?

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, too, sir.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That depends on whether you

11 want to take a break.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, perhaps we will take a

13 short, ten-minute break, the time necessary to help the

14 witness leave the courtroom. Is the witness

15 protected? Is the next witness protected, too?

16 MR. HAYMAN: The next witness has similar

17 face and also voice distortion. If you wish we could

18 have that witness seated during the break.

19 JUDGE JORDA: All right. I suggest that we

20 take a ten-minute break, which will allow Witness DO to

21 leave the courtroom with the protective measures which

22 are extended to her, and then contrary to what we

23 ordinarily do, you will bring in the next witness who

24 will be there when we come back in.

25 All right, the hearing is suspended for about

Page 15848

1 ten minutes.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.17 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 3.37 p.m.

4 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing

5 now. Have the accused brought in, please?

6 (The accused entered court)

7 JUDGE JORDA: I think this is Witness DP.


9 JUDGE JORDA: Witness DP, first of all, do

10 you hear me? Do you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I hear you.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Please remain standing for a

13 moment. I am going to ask you to acknowledge your name

14 on the piece of paper which is being given to you, but

15 don't state your name. We just want to be sure that

16 this is, in fact, you.

17 Would you show the witness the piece of paper

18 with the name? Is that your name? Do not say your

19 name. Is that, in fact, your name?

20 THE WITNESS: (Nods)

21 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You are now going

22 to take an oath.

23 I think you are going to say the sentence

24 which you should repeat or you can do it yourself.

25 Please stay standing for a few minutes.

Page 15849

1 THE REGISTRAR: I will read the statement and

2 ask the witness to repeat after me.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Listen to me, please, the

4 Registrar is going to read you an oath in short bits of

5 sentences. It will be interpreted for you into your

6 own mother tongue, and then you are asked to repeat it,

7 and once that is done, you can sit down. Please

8 proceed. Read slowly, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: I solemnly declare.

10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That I will speak the truth.

12 THE WITNESS: That I will speak the truth.

13 THE REGISTRAR: The whole truth.

14 THE WITNESS: The whole truth.

15 THE REGISTRAR: And nothing but the truth.

16 THE WITNESS: And nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You may be seated

18 now.

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

20 JUDGE JORDA: Try to relax, that's the most

21 important thing. There is no need to be afraid. I

22 know that this is a setting which can be a bit awesome,

23 but you are before Judges and you have nothing to

24 fear. If you have any need at all to stop, don't

25 hesitate to tell us. Take your time, and we can stop.

Page 15850

1 You are under complete protection, and you can now

2 first answer the questions that will be asked by the

3 counsel for the accused who is in this room, that is,

4 General Blaskic, and then you will be asked some

5 questions by the Prosecutor, and finally by the

6 Judges.

7 Are you prepared to begin?


9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?

10 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. Mr. President, I

11 wish to suggest that we move into private session for

12 two or three minutes in order to get some

13 identification data from this witness very briefly.

14 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Just at the

15 beginning, we will go into a closed session so that any

16 identifying information that you give us will be

17 completely protected, and once that's been done, we can

18 move back into public session. As I told you, the

19 image of your face is distorted on the monitor.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 (Private session)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15851













13 Page 15851 redacted in private session













Page 15852

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (Open session)

18 JUDGE JORDA: You are still under protective

19 measures. Just don't say the name of your village.

20 Mr. Nobilo, go ahead.

21 MR. NOBILO: Thank you.

22 Q. Witness DO, please, could you just speak a

23 bit louder because I have trouble hearing you.

24 Tell me, your Muslim neighbours, don't

25 mention any names, please, but tell me, did you have

Page 15853

1 any problems? Were there any problems between Croats

2 and Muslims in your village?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And now we shall move on to the 24th of

5 April, 1993. Can you explain to the Court how this day

6 began and what happened?

7 A. Yes, I can.

8 Q. Well, please do.

9 A. With my husband, I was working in the fields;

10 we wanted to plant potatoes. Four neighbours came by,

11 they were Muslims, and they were running towards us,

12 and we asked them what had happened because they had

13 had coffee at our place only a little while before

14 that, and they said, "Nothing happened. We just came

15 here so that nothing would happen." And we said, "What

16 is it?" And they said, "The Mujahedin have gotten out

17 of control, and we came to protect you. Come up there

18 with us," and we all went to the village because there

19 weren't too many of us anyway. There were about 35 of

20 us altogether.

21 Q. Just a minute, please. Is it possible for

22 you to speak a bit slower so that the interpreters

23 could precisely interpret what you are saying?

24 So your neighbours said that the Mujahedin

25 got out of control?

Page 15854

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then what happened?

3 A. And then they said that they came to protect

4 us. We believed them because their sons worked at the

5 command.

6 Q. They said that they came to protect you.

7 Were they your neighbours?

8 A. Yes, yes, our neighbours, Muslims.

9 Q. And then what happened?

10 A. Then all of us from the village got together

11 in the middle of the village, and then he took one of

12 our Croats, this neighbour of ours, I mean, this

13 Muslim, and he said that he should go with his brother

14 to go to the command and that they should say that

15 these other people have gotten out of control.

16 Q. Please tell the Court, what kind of command

17 are we talking about? What army?

18 A. This was the command of the BH army, but the

19 Mujahedin were together with them. They all belonged

20 to the same command.

21 Q. Please tell the Court, the command of the

22 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Mujahedin, where

23 did they have their headquarters, their command?

24 What's the name of this place?

25 A. I know that it was called Mehurici. I only

Page 15855

1 know of Mehurici.

2 Q. Please go on. Tell us what happened.

3 A. Then this man went, and all of a sudden, they

4 showed up in the village.

5 Q. Who is "they"?

6 A. The army, the Mujahedin. They were not

7 masked, and the rest were masked. They had socks over

8 their faces.

9 Q. Please tell the Court, these people whom you

10 call Mujahedin who were not masked, what did they look

11 like? Were they different from your Muslim neighbours?

12 A. Yes, they were quite different. They were

13 short, they were dark, and they were there for a year.

14 They wore those long robes in Mehurici. We saw them

15 down there, and we also saw them in Travnik. We saw

16 them all over the place. We knew what they looked

17 like.

18 Q. Tell me, when you say "these long robes,"

19 what does that mean? Could you describe this attire to

20 the Court?

21 A. It was white, these white robes. They didn't

22 wear a belt or anything, but these robes were just

23 flowing around them.

24 Q. And the garment that they wore, we could call

25 it a shirt, for example, how long was it?

Page 15856

1 A. It went down to their heels. They had these

2 shirts flowing down to their heels. Those were the

3 guys who didn't go to the frontline, and those who went

4 with the army to the frontline, they were dressed just

5 like the BH army.

6 Q. Did the colour of their skin differ from that

7 of the local Muslims?

8 A. Yes, it did.

9 Q. Did some of them have beards?

10 A. Some did, others didn't, and then armed

11 Muslims too, those who were younger, they also started

12 dressing the same way.

13 Q. Tell me, these others who had socks over

14 their heads, how were they dressed?

15 A. They were dressed in camouflage. They only

16 had these socks on their heads, and when we got in and

17 when we were supposed to run away, we were actually

18 told to get into a house, and not all of us could fit

19 into this house, so the owner of the house locked up

20 his house, and then they tried to attack the house --

21 Q. Just a minute, please. When you say "the

22 owner locked up the house," could you tell us what

23 nationality this owner was?

24 A. He was a Croat.

25 Q. And the local population mostly took shelter

Page 15857

1 in that house; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, we ran into that house.

3 Q. Did you manage to get into the house or did

4 you stay outside, you personally?

5 A. I got into the house. I managed to get into

6 the house.

7 Q. And these who were attacking the house, who

8 were they?

9 A. It was the Mujahedin and the BH army.

10 Q. All right. Could you please describe what

11 happened after that? How did they attack the house?

12 A. They were shooting through the doors, and the

13 owner of the house stood behind the front door, and he

14 was begging them not to shoot. And they threw things

15 into the kitchen.

16 Q. What kind of things?

17 A. When we got out, we saw that they were

18 throwing something green into the house. The house was

19 in smoke, and the walls were falling off, the ceiling

20 was coming down. It was foggy. We couldn't even see

21 each other. We were all in one room and then in

22 another room.

23 Q. Just a minute, please. When they would throw

24 this green thing into the kitchen, did it explode?

25 A. Yes, it did.

Page 15858

1 Q. How can we describe this green thing? Was it

2 a bomb? Do you know what a bomb is, a grenade?

3 A. Yeah, I know what a grenade is, but I didn't

4 really see this thing. I didn't see it then. I saw

5 the smoke, though, and when they threw us out of the

6 house, then I saw what they were doing. They were

7 unscrewing this thing.

8 Q. In the kitchen where they threw this

9 explosive device, were there people in this kitchen?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And then what happened after the owner of the

12 house begged them not to shoot?

13 A. Then they broke down the door, and he had a

14 rifle in his hands, and he shot immediately, and he

15 killed one of them, and then they killed him. And then

16 they barged into the third room with rifles, and this

17 was a Mujahedin who had barged in.

18 Q. Please, this house that they barged into, how

19 many people were there in there? How many people took

20 shelter in this house?

21 A. Well, there were only about ten of us in

22 there.

23 Q. Tell me, in addition to the owner of the

24 house who shot in the hallway when they broke in, did

25 anybody else have weapons?

Page 15859

1 A. No, nobody else had weapons.

2 Q. Were all the rest of you civilians?

3 A. Yes, we were all civilians. UNPROFOR took

4 pictures of the dead bodies, and everybody wore

5 civilian clothes.

6 Q. And then you say that the owner of the house

7 hit a man, shot a man. Could you describe him, what he

8 looked like and what he had on his head?

9 A. He had some kind of a cap on. He was dark,

10 he was short, he had nothing on his face, he had a

11 rifle, and he tried to throw us out.

12 Q. So this is the man who tried to throw you

13 out. Did you see the man whom the owner of the house,

14 the Croat, had shot, had killed?

15 A. Well, we went by Stipe in the hallway, and

16 this man was lying there.

17 Q. He was a Croat; right?

18 A. Yes, he was a Croat. And then we went out,

19 and the first neighbour was killed.

20 Q. How do you know that it was your neighbour

21 who was killed? How come?

22 A. Well, we know. The Croat neighbour of mine

23 was very young when I got married. I know him.

24 Q. Did you see the member of the BH army who was

25 killed? What did he look like?

Page 15860

1 A. Well, he's the one I told you about, the

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina man. I told you what he was like.

3 He wore camouflage clothes, like the Mujahedin.

4 Q. And this member of the BH army, the Muslim

5 who wore camouflage clothes, did he have a sock over

6 his head?

7 A. Yes, but they took off this sock because they

8 tried to save his life.

9 Q. And when they took off this sock, did you

10 recognise him then?

11 A. Yes, I did recognise him.

12 Q. Did you recognise him as being your

13 neighbour?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. He is a Muslim?

16 A. Yes, he is.

17 Q. Could you explain what happened after that?

18 A. Then they kicked us out, and then the one who

19 had gone to the command, to the headquarters, came

20 back, I mean, both of them came back, and they wanted

21 to kill them.

22 Q. Who wanted to kill who?

23 A. The Mujahedin wanted to kill the guy who went

24 to headquarters and this other Croat of ours, these

25 two, when they were going back.

Page 15861

1 Q. So who went to the command, a Croat and a

2 Muslim from your village; right?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. And then they came back?

5 A. Yes, and then they came back. And they

6 rushed towards them. They wanted to kill them. The

7 Muslim stretched his hands out and he said, "What do

8 you want? I'm a Muslim brother." And they said to

9 him, "Well, you're a Muslim brother, what are you doing

10 here?" And they told both of them to go where they had

11 come from. One of these men with a sock on his head

12 raced out as soon as he saw them and said, "This Croat

13 should come back. This is not a Muslim brother. He's

14 not a Muslim brother. Let him come back."

15 Q. And tell me, how many civilians were there in

16 this village of yours? How many Croat villagers,

17 civilians who were taken prisoner?

18 A. Thirty-four of us were taken prisoner.

19 Q. And then what happened?

20 A. And then this Croat came back, and then they

21 tied him up too. They tied up all of us with a rope.

22 So they tied him up too, and they said, they said he

23 should be tied even harder. They took a rope with

24 which they tie hay and they tied him with this rope,

25 and they hit them with rifle butts, and they kicked

Page 15862

1 them and they made them kneel. And then our people

2 begged them to stop, because they couldn't kneel while

3 they were tied.

4 One neighbour came, brought a car, and he did

5 not have a mask, and he brought a full Toyota, full of

6 Mujahedin, and then they told us to get up and they

7 made us walk in front of them, to walk two-by-two.

8 Q. Did all of you go? Did the men also go and

9 did the women and children stay behind, or what?

10 A. I thought that all of us were going. We were

11 imprisoned until 11.30, and then they let us go. They

12 said, "Go ahead, there is a bus waiting for you. Go

13 back to your homes."

14 We had set out, and then when we got into the

15 bus I was looking around because I wanted to see where

16 my husband was, and I had my child with me. When I got

17 into the bus I saw that my husband was not there. I

18 thought that he was there where they had separated us,

19 women one side, men on the other side, because they had

20 locked us up in the cellar. We were taken prisoner.

21 And the Mujahedin lived upstairs above us.

22 And the men were locked up in the shed, and

23 when we got into the bus I saw that my husband wasn't

24 there.

25 Q. Who else was missing of the men?

Page 15863

1 A. When I started to cry and shout, I thought

2 that my husband was still in the shed and that we had

3 left, and my neighbour cried out to me that three

4 others were missing, as well. My husband and the other

5 men remained dead in the village.

6 Q. Did you ask where the men were?

7 A. Yes, we asked them. They said, "You must not

8 worry. Don't be afraid. They will be exchanged."

9 Then they took us away. There were two other

10 Serb women with us and two Serb men, and we were

11 separated there. They were left in the school, and

12 they took us further away to our houses, and that's

13 where we stayed.

14 We asked them once again and pleaded with

15 them to tell us where the others were, and they said

16 that they had gone to be exchanged. The next day we

17 asked them again, and pleaded with them again, and they

18 told us that in the course of the day they would tell

19 us where they had gone to be exchanged.

20 UNPROFOR turned up then and went up towards

21 our village. We asked them to release us. They did

22 not do this, and they told us, "Flee to the basement

23 because the Mujahedin are coming to slaughter you."

24 And we were sent down into a basement, and then let us

25 go. And later on UNPROFOR arrived and we were able to

Page 15864

1 go out of the basement towards UNPROFOR.

2 From an armed vehicle, one armoured vehicle,

3 one of our Croats peeked through, put his head through,

4 and told us that our menfolk had been killed.

5 Once again we asked and implored them to let

6 us go to the village to see where our menfolk were, but

7 they didn't allow us to do this. We spent the night

8 there, once again, and in the morning we got up and

9 there was nobody anywhere to be seen. One by one, we

10 went through the wood and came to our village and we

11 found our men there in one house. They were lined up

12 and covered with blankets.

13 Q. How many bodies were there? How many people

14 were killed?

15 A. Five men were killed. And I asked to see --

16 and I asked him -- and he hugged me, and he said, "I

17 wanted to see father." He asked me to let him go and

18 find his father, and I let him do this.

19 And when we started uncovering the bodies I

20 saw a man lying on his back. The second body was

21 uncovered and they were turned -- their faces were

22 turned to the floor. I saw one man, that he had been

23 slaughtered.

24 Q. When you say that he was slaughtered from the

25 back, from the top, how did you see the head severed

Page 15865

1 from the body?

2 A. From the backside, from the back. I saw this

3 from the back. He had been slaughtered, and the head

4 was separated, severed from the neck.

5 Q. So the head was separated from the neck and

6 body. How many centimetres was it severed?

7 A. About five centimetres, but I didn't see that

8 it was cut off entirely.

9 Q. You didn't seen the throat side, you didn't

10 see the side of the throat?

11 A. No, the head was turned, the face was

12 downward, so I couldn't see the face. I just saw the

13 back of the neck.

14 Q. And what did the people tell you later on who

15 buried the bodies? Was the head completely cut off

16 from the bodies?

17 A. People said that my husband's head was

18 completely cut off. I saw that he was slaughtered. I

19 saw that all of them had been slaughtered, that their

20 throats had been -- and that their sexual organs had

21 been cut off and their arms and legs had been broken.

22 And they told me that my husband had a television on

23 his head, and that that's how they found him when

24 UNPROFOR came. And that they had to eat, they were

25 told to eat flowers from the window, and weeds. That's

Page 15866

1 what they told me.

2 Q. Tell us, Witness DP, tell the Court, please,

3 who told you that one of the bodies the head had been

4 severed from the body, that the sex organs had been cut

5 off and the hands and legs had been broken? Who told

6 you that? Don't tell us the name, but describe to us.

7 A. Our man told us, one of ours, because we

8 asked them, we asked them -- we brought clothes for

9 them to change their clothing.

10 Q. So in keeping with Croatian conditions you

11 wanted to put clean clothes on the dead men, and what

12 did the man tell you who tried to change their clothes?

13 A. He said it was impossible to unclothe them

14 because everything had been separated and if he were to

15 take the clothes off, the whole body would disintegrate

16 into pieces.

17 Q. Of these five bodies, one was a neighbour who

18 was killed in the house before your eyes who was in the

19 hallway protecting his own home; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. The other four bodies, the other four men,

22 did you see them taken alive, arrested alive?

23 A. Yes, I saw that with my very own eyes. I

24 prayed to God that they had killed me then, rather than

25 seeing what I saw.

Page 15867

1 Q. Tell me, later on did you see a photograph

2 with somebody's heart being plucked out?

3 A. Yes, I saw a picture of this where, a body

4 with a heart plucked out, and this could be seen from

5 the clothing. And it exists today, but I don't know

6 who has that particular photograph, but I saw it in a

7 shop window.

8 Q. Was your husband's heart taken out?

9 A. No, my neighbour's, but I did not see my

10 husband. I don't know if I will ever see him.

11 Q. What happened next? When you had seen this

12 massacre, what did the Croat civilians do? Did they

13 remain in the village? Did you stay in the village or

14 go anywhere?

15 A. UNPROFOR came on that day and we asked them

16 to take us away. We stood in front of UNPROFOR and

17 UNPROFOR told us that they had come to the scene but

18 not to -- to do an examination on the scene but not to

19 take civilians away. We cried and said we wanted to

20 leave and said we didn't dare stay anymore, and they

21 took us halfway, and that's where they left us.

22 The BiH army did not allow us to pass

23 through. There were negotiations with UNPROFOR, and I

24 heard that they asked UNPROFOR for ten tons of flour

25 and then they would release us and our dead.

Page 15868

1 Q. You say that you heard a condition was being

2 stipulated for an exchange of you and the dead bodies,

3 that they were offering ten tons of flour; did you hear

4 that?

5 A. Yes, we heard that they asked for ten tons of

6 flour. We were there at 2 a.m.. They did not allow us

7 free passage, and what UNPROFOR discussed with them --

8 but they left us, anyway, and returned the bodies on

9 the next day. But they didn't send the bodies to us,

10 but they allowed the bodies to be taken for burial from

11 the place they had expelled us Croats. I wasn't able

12 to go there. I only went there later on for -- later

13 on, when there was security in the region.

14 Q. Tell us when the Croat civilians from your

15 place started downhill towards the territory under

16 control of the HVO, is it true that you went to Bila

17 then?

18 A. Yes, we came at midnight to Bila. We were

19 taken there by UNPROFOR.

20 Q. And Bila was controlled by the Croats; was it

21 not?

22 A. Yes, it was.

23 Q. And where were you put up?

24 A. We were put up in a school, and a woman took

25 us in her own house, and then we were put up there in

Page 15869

1 that building, in the same building that I live today.

2 Q. This is a school building, the school

3 building in Bila. Did you come from your village?

4 Were you the only one, or did a number of Croats go

5 down towards the northern reaches to the enclave

6 controlled --

7 A. Not on that occasion, only my village. But

8 later on in June, I don't exactly know what date it

9 was, but Bukovica, Radonjici, Vucja Gora, Maljine,

10 Susanj, Ovljau, Brakovici, Cuklje, all those were taken

11 to Bila in one day.

12 Q. Which means that the Croats left all these

13 places; does it?

14 A. Yes, the Croats left these places, because

15 they had to at gunpoint. They were expelled at

16 gunpoint. And a mother threw her dead child into the

17 bushes to save her head.

18 Q. We are now going to see a video, and while we

19 look at this video I'm going to ask you a few

20 questions. May we see the video and have the lights

21 dimmed, please?

22 (Videotape played)

23 Q. Do you recognise this scenery, this

24 panorama? Have a good look at the whole video, first.

25 A. Yes, I recognise this.

Page 15870

1 Q. You do?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Are those the villages that you spoke about?

4 A. Yes, they are.

5 Q. The smoke we see, what is that?

6 A. Those are the houses burning.

7 Q. Whose houses?

8 A. Croat houses.

9 Q. And that took place in June, 1993?

10 A. Yes, that's right, but I don't remember the

11 exact date. I know this woman.

12 Q. She is from Maljine?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And all these neighbours?

15 A. Yes, these neighbours are from my parish. We

16 used to go to church together. Not from my village,

17 but from my parish, that's right, yes.

18 Q. Is this in front of the school building in

19 Bila?

20 A. Yes, and I live there today. This is the

21 truck and they are unloading and loading.

22 Q. Was this what it looked like when the people

23 arrived?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Fleeing in the face of the Muslims?

Page 15871

1 A. Yes. All these people fled during the

2 night.

3 Q. And at dawn they came to this place?

4 A. Yes, they arrived throughout the night.

5 Q. The area where your villages are located, are

6 they at an altitude higher up in the hills?

7 A. Yes, they are.

8 Q. And the refugees had to move down the hill

9 towards the village?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Tell us, can you go back to your parish? The

12 parishioners of these ten villages, is it possible for

13 the Croatians to return?

14 A. Well, I don't know if it's possible for us to

15 return. We would all like to return, but we're all

16 afraid.

17 Q. And tell us, what about the houses, have they

18 been destroyed, the houses of your parish?

19 A. Yes, they have.

20 Q. They were burned?

21 A. Yes, they burned to the ground. There were

22 refugees in my house, and then the refugees left and

23 when they did so the house was set fire to and it

24 burned.

25 Q. This all happened in June 1993; is that

Page 15872

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this completes

4 our examination-in-chief.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. As I said to you,

6 Witness DP, the Prosecutor is going to ask you a few

7 questions, and then the Judges.

8 Mr. Cayley, will you be conducting the

9 cross-examination?

10 MR. CAYLEY: I only have a couple of comments

11 to make, actually, Mr. President, if we could go into

12 closed session, please.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes? All right we're going to

14 go into a closed session to hear Mr. Cayley's


16 (Closed session)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15873













13 Pages 15873 to 15888 redacted in private session









22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23 4.43 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday

24 the 10th day of December, 1998 at10.00 a.m.