Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16024

1 Friday, 11th December, 1998

2 (Open session)

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.10 a.m.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Have the

5 accused brought in, please.

6 (The accused entered court)

7 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning to the

8 interpreters. Does everyone hear me? Good morning to

9 the prosecution. Good morning Mr. Nobilo. I hope that

10 Mr. Hayman is not ill. Very well. Of course, you

11 don't always have to both be here, as you know.

12 All right. We can resume. It seemed to me

13 the Prosecution wanted to conduct the cross-examination

14 of one of the witnesses.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, the Prosecutor, in

16 respect of the cross-examination of Witness DQ, asked

17 to conduct the cross-examination today because he

18 didn't have the proper first name of the witness.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. All right. It was a

20 protected witness. I think we have to draw the

21 curtains. Draw the curtains before the witness comes

22 in, and then we'll raise them again so we can have a

23 public hearing, unless there's anything being said

24 which will justify moving into a closed session.

25 That's how we're going to work.

Page 16025

1 Have the witness brought in, please.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 JUDGE JORDA: Witness DQ, it was necessary to

4 have you come back. I'm sorry. This is both the

5 wonders and the sad points of international justice.

6 Apparently there was a mistake in your first name, and

7 the Prosecution was not able to find the basis for

8 conducting the cross-examination. The Prosecutor is

9 going to ask you some questions now. If necessary,

10 Defence counsel will take the floor again, perhaps the

11 Judges as well, but for the time being it will be

12 Mr. Cayley.


14 Cross-examined by Mr. Cayley:

15 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning Mr. President,

16 Judge Shahabuddeen.

17 Q. I'm from the Office of the Prosecutor. These

18 are my colleagues Mr. Harmon and Mr. Kehoe. Let me,

19 first of all, express to you, on behalf of the Office

20 of the Prosecutor, our sincere sympathy at your

21 suffering. Please relax. I have very few questions

22 for you. You will be going very shortly.

23 Do you recall, at the end of your testimony

24 yesterday you mentioned that Darko Kraljevic organised

25 an attack on Stari Vitez, and that he thought he would

Page 16026

1 be helped by Colonel Blaskic and Mario Cerkez with that

2 attack? Do you remember saying that to the Court?

3 A. I remember that. He did organise an attack

4 and he thought that he would be helped, but no one

5 helped him. No one helped him in this attack. He

6 sought help, and they told him that he shouldn't be

7 doing that and that they would not help him.

8 Q. Now, was this a rumour that you heard around

9 Vitez?

10 A. No, no, not a rumour. It was the truth.

11 Q. And this attack that was organised by

12 Mr. Kraljevic, did that attack take place in July of

13 1993?

14 A. Yes. I don't know the exact date, but it

15 might have been July. I think so, yes.

16 Q. And your testimony is that Mr. Blaskic and

17 Mr. Cerkez refused to help Mr. Kraljevic in that attack

18 on Stari Vitez?

19 A. I maintain that, and that's the way it was.

20 Q. Thank you very much, witness.

21 I have no further questions for the witness,

22 Mr. President, thank you.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

24 Mr. Nobilo, do you have any clarifications that you

25 want to provide in respect of the questions asked in

Page 16027

1 the cross-examination?

2 MR. NOBILO: No -- perhaps just one question,

3 actually.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Nobilo:

5 Q. How did you learn the things you told us

6 about? Did you hear it from the women at the funerals

7 we saw?

8 A. I was in the kitchen with the army, and I was

9 au courrant. I heard all of this. I knew everything.

10 There is nothing more I have to add to that.

11 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. No further

12 questions.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Witness DQ, we're almost

14 finished. I only have one question. Have you ever

15 heard of the attack on Ahmici? Since you saw soldiers,

16 you see soldiers, did you ever hear anybody speak about

17 Ahmici?

18 A. Well, I did hear about the attack on Ahmici,

19 but it wasn't really that way, that I was following all

20 of that, because we're quite far away from Ahmici.

21 JUDGE JORDA: About how many kilometres from

22 Ahmici were you?

23 A. Well, about six to seven kilometres.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Rather far, seven kilometres.

25 You could go on bicycle, however, right? Did you know

Page 16028

1 Ahmici?

2 A. There was a war on. There was a war on. One

3 could not move around, one could not go out. My house

4 was at the frontline. I couldn't go anywhere during

5 the war. I only stayed there in Kruscica. Through a

6 small forest we managed to reach Vitez, but very

7 rarely. So for four months I hardly heard anything

8 from people. I couldn't really walk around because

9 there was no movement, there was shooting.

10 Once I went to Vitez, and from the Mahala a

11 bullet went right by me, over here, and you couldn't

12 really move around in those days.

13 JUDGE JORDA: Is Stari Vitez further away

14 from you than Ahmici? How many kilometres away is

15 Stari Vitez, about?

16 A. Stari Vitez? Well, about three kilometres.

17 I think so.

18 JUDGE JORDA: You have lived through many

19 things. I'm not going to ask you any more questions,

20 and as Mr. Cayley said, we Judges also have a great

21 deal of sympathy for what you experienced. We thank

22 you for having come to The Hague, and we hope for you

23 that the days, and months and years to come will be

24 happier than that period which will always be a period

25 of great suffering. In any case, thank you very much

Page 16029

1 for having come to The Hague.

2 Now we're going to lower the blinds so that

3 you can leave the courtroom without anybody seeing.

4 All right? Then we'll continue with our work.

5 A. Thank you.

6 JUDGE JORDA: All right. The usher is going

7 to escort you out of the courtroom.

8 Mr. Nobilo?

9 MR. NOBILO: The next witness is Marjana

10 Vidovic. She is not a protected witness, just like the

11 witness that follows after her. So the next two

12 ladies, the next two witnesses will not be protected

13 witnesses.

14 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We can have -- we

15 can say her name; right? We can reveal her identity;

16 is that right? All right. Can we have Marjana Vidovic

17 brought into the courtroom?

18 (The witness entered court)


20 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me? Please remain

21 standing for a moment. Could you give us your name,

22 your given name, please?

23 A. Marjana Vidovic.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You're going to

25 take an oath using a statement which is going to be

Page 16030

1 given to you by the usher. Please read it out loud.

2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

4 truth.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Please be seated.

6 You have agreed to testify before the International

7 Criminal Tribunal at The Hague, in the trial which has

8 been initiated by the Prosecutor against

9 Colonel Blaskic, a Colonel at the time, who is a

10 General now. He is in this courtroom.

11 You have agreed to testify at the request of

12 the Defence. Therefore, the Defence is going to ask

13 you some questions. If there's anything that must

14 remain confidential, the Defence counsel will let us

15 know, and in that case you will be covered by

16 protective measures. Then either the Prosecutor will

17 ask you questions, or the Judges will ask you questions

18 or perhaps both.

19 Please try to relax. Do not be afraid.

20 You're young, you're strong, you're in front of

21 Judges. Feel comfortable. If something is wrong, tell

22 us and we'll see what needs to be done to help you.

23 Mr. Nobilo, please begin.

24 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:

25 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. I

Page 16031

1 would like to have a map distributed, first of all,

2 please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: This is D464.


5 Q. Marjana, please tell me, when were you born

6 and where?

7 A. I was born on the 2nd of February, 1981 in

8 Zenica.

9 Q. And please tell the Court how old were you in

10 1993 and 1994 when these tragic events occurred?

11 A. I was twelve and a half.

12 Q. Could you tell us where you lived with your

13 parents and your brothers?

14 A. I lived in Santici, in the hamlet of Buhine

15 Kuce.

16 Q. There is a map here that I drew according to

17 your instructions, and is it accurate? Does this arrow

18 show where Buhine Kuce, this hamlet in Santici was?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So it is on the road between Vitez and

21 Busovaca; right?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Please explain to the Court, during 1993, who

24 was in your immediate family?

25 A. In the house my mother lived there Ankica, my

Page 16032

1 father Dragan, my brother Nedyeljko, my younger brother

2 Branislav, and my grandfather and my grandmother.

3 Q. Your mother was born in '52 and your father

4 in 1950; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when were your brothers born?

7 A. My older brother was born in 1979, and I was

8 born in '81, and my younger brother was born in '85.

9 Q. So in 1993 your older brother Nedyeljko was

10 14; right?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. Your younger brother?

13 A. My younger brother was eight.

14 Q. His name is Branislav?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Would you please describe to the court what

17 happened to your older brother in September, 1993?

18 A. When he got out of the family house he was

19 wounded by a sniper from the Muslim side, the Muslim

20 army. He was wounded in the stomach, and all his

21 organs were wounded except for his heart and one

22 kidney, and he was taken to the hospital in Nova Bila.

23 Q. Tell me, how many surgeries did he undergo?

24 A. Seven.

25 Q. Did he finally manage to survive?

Page 16033

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On the 9th of January, 1994, this tragic

3 event occurred, and that is the one that you've come

4 here to tell us about, to testify about. Tell me, at

5 that point who was in your house Buhine Kuce?

6 A. In 1993 my grandfather Ante was also

7 wounded. He and my grandma were in Vitez. My mommy,

8 my father, and I and my younger brother were in the

9 house because my older brother was in the hospital.

10 And also my uncle, Mirko Vidovic and his son, Drazen

11 Vidovic were in the house. That's my father's

12 brother.

13 Q. Your village was just by the frontline;

14 right?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Were there any weapons in your house?

17 A. In my house there were no weapons, but at the

18 frontline there were weapons, but there weren't enough

19 weapons. So they couldn't really bring the weapons

20 home, they had to leave it at the -- leave them at the

21 frontline.

22 Q. Thank you, but could you please look at the

23 Judges, because it's important for the Judges to hear

24 what you have to say.

25 So not a single one of the men in the house

Page 16034

1 had any weapons?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Was that the case in the other houses too,

4 that weapons were only kept in the trenches at the

5 frontline?

6 A. Yes, there were weapons, but only in the

7 trenches, not in the houses. There weren't enough

8 weapons. So then when there would be a change of the

9 guard, the weapons would remain the same.

10 Q. On the 9th of January, 1994 you were asleep,

11 of course, during the night in your own house. Tell

12 me, what do you hear at what time, and how do these

13 tragic events start?

14 A. On the 9th of January, 1994, it was the night

15 between Saturday and Sunday, in the morning, around 20

16 past 4.00. We were in the house and all of a sudden we

17 heard shooting. We heard children crying, and they

18 were saying, "Get up Ustasha," and they were shooting

19 at the house.

20 When my daddy got out, we didn't see him

21 again. As they started shooting, first my mother got

22 out, and then my younger brother, Branislav, and then I

23 followed them.

24 Q. Just a minute, please. We have to speak a

25 bit slower for the interpreters. Did your father leave

Page 16035

1 without any weapons?

2 A. Yes, he got out without any weapons.

3 Q. And later on, did you realise that your

4 father was killed?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. You said that your mother got out of the

7 house first, and then what happened?

8 A. There were many Muslim soldiers there, they

9 were two metres away. First they shot at her, and as I

10 started moving towards her they shot at me. They hit

11 my right arm, and I also had six operations. And then

12 Brano, my brother, started moving towards me and he was

13 hit in the stomach.

14 Q. When you went out, you said that you saw a

15 lot of soldiers. Which army do they belong to?

16 A. This was the Muslim army, the BH army.

17 Q. And what do they look like? Could you

18 describe them a bit?

19 A. They had red berets on their heads and green

20 ones. I couldn't see their faces because they had

21 socks over their faces.

22 Q. How far away were they when they shot at your

23 mother?

24 A. They were two metres away from her.

25 Q. And what about you?

Page 16036

1 A. I moved towards her, so it was the same

2 distance.

3 Q. The same group of soldiers?

4 A. Yes, the same group of soldiers.

5 Q. And your brother, do the same group of

6 soldiers shoot at him?

7 A. Yes, yes, as he started moving towards me the

8 same group of soldiers started shooting at him.

9 Q. And how did your brother fare, and what was

10 his wound like?

11 A. When I looked towards him and I took him in

12 my arms I could see his insides, and the Muslim

13 soldiers grabbed me by my right arm where I was

14 wounded, they wanted to kill me. One of them came and

15 said that they had to go on fighting. So they let me

16 go.

17 Q. Where do you go then? In what direction?

18 A. I went towards the road, and there were a lot

19 of Muslim soldiers there, as well, they wanted to kill

20 me down there. When I moved towards UNPROFOR, because

21 across the road there was an UNPROFOR base, they do not

22 want to help me, and they cocked their rifles at us.

23 And then --

24 Q. Just one moment please. Did your small

25 brother, your 8-year-old brother go with you?

Page 16037

1 A. Yes, I carried him.

2 Q. You carried him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was it your intention to go into the

5 UNPROFOR base to protect yourself and to save yourself?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 Q. And what do the soldiers of the United

8 Nations do?

9 A. When we approached they didn't let us pass,

10 they pointed their rifles at us.

11 Q. And what happened next?

12 A. When we moved along towards the road a man

13 turned up, his name was Ivica Vidovic, and he took over

14 my brother and took me by the hand and led us to the

15 first aid station towards Vitez.

16 Q. And from that first aid station where were

17 you and your brother taken?

18 A. I was taken to the Franciscan hospital in

19 Nova Bila. It wasn't a hospital, it was a church and a

20 makeshift hospital where the wounded were located.

21 Q. And what happened after that? Where do you

22 go after that?

23 A. Fifteen days later I was transferred by

24 helicopter to Split, to the hospital in Split, my

25 brother and I.

Page 16038

1 Q. And when we summarise, if you look at that

2 day, who did you lose on that day?

3 A. I lost my father, I lost my mother, I lost my

4 father's brother and his relation, and his son Drazen,

5 and my grandmother who looks after me now, me and my

6 brothers. She lost two sons, she lost her

7 daughter-in-law, her grandchild, and she looks after

8 the three of us children now.

9 Q. In the hamlet of Mali Bobasi, was anybody

10 taken prisoner, as far as you know?

11 A. You mean Buhine Kuce?

12 Q. Yes, Buhine Kuce, was anybody taken prisoner?

13 A. That morning everybody was killed, as far as

14 I know. I don't think anybody was taken prisoner.

15 Q. Who remained alive of the people left in the

16 village?

17 A. Myself, my younger brother, and Anto

18 Grbavac. And his wife had also been killed and a

19 two-year-old child, Ankica Grbavac and Danijel Grbavac,

20 their child.

21 Q. How was his child killed?

22 A. When they went out of the house he was

23 carrying his child in his arms, and when they killed

24 his wife and shot him and hit him in the left hand, in

25 the left hand, he was, the baby was shot through the

Page 16039

1 heart as well, and he died.

2 Q. And the three of you survived in the

3 village. Can you remember at least some of the people

4 who were killed in the village? Can you give us their

5 name and surname?

6 A. Petar Perkovic; Nikola Jankovic; Marko Buhic;

7 Ankica Vidovic, my mother; my father, Dragan Vidovic;

8 Mirko Vidovic, my father's brother; his son, Drazen

9 Vidovic, Ankica Grbavac and Danijel Grbavac.

10 Q. Do you remember a lady called Novka?

11 A. Yes, Novka Ikobac.

12 Q. I'm going to remind you of some other names,

13 you gave them to me, perhaps you are excited and can't

14 remember them.

15 A. I know one more name, Bice.

16 Q. Yes, Bice. I'm going to read four more names

17 out: Mirko Safradin, Drazenko Jutanda, Dragica

18 Petrovic, and Zvonko Santic; are they the neighbours,

19 your neighbours who were killed?

20 A. Yes, they are.

21 Q. Tell us, you go to school, you go to

22 secondary school, what form?

23 A. Third form of the secondary school for the,

24 in the marketing section.

25 Q. And you wrote an essay, I heard that essay

Page 16040

1 and I think it would be a good idea for you to read

2 your essay out for the benefit of the Trial Chamber,

3 which described that event, but slowly for the purposes

4 of interpretation.

5 A. "War, what is war? For me it was only an

6 ordinary word at one time. It was very far away from

7 me, very far away from all of us. That was what I

8 thought about war five years ago. War for me existed

9 only in films, and afterwards it became my difficult

10 everyday life. Harmony and happiness of family life

11 was disrupted when this three-letter word entered our

12 life.

13 There is no way in which to describe the

14 human suffering that the human heart can survive. We

15 all think that we cannot do without our nearest and

16 dearest, we would not be able to live without them, but

17 when this happens, we have to continue our lives and we

18 have to bear our cross regardless of how desperate it

19 all is.

20 We are compelled to live without our dear

21 parents, with whom I would like to share all my sorrows

22 and all my happiness, all my tears and all my smiles.

23 They were the ones who encouraged us, we always had a

24 place in their heart, and they took that away from us,

25 because they exist no longer and their love exists no

Page 16041

1 longer. But our love remains and our hearts remain and

2 they will always remain in our hearts. My brothers and

3 I will always carry this sorrow in our hearts because

4 of the happiness that was taken away from us when our

5 parents were taken away from us. Now we have memories

6 and remembrances and we know that we had all the

7 happiness of the world.

8 The suffering of my family began in

9 September, 1993, when my 14-year-old brother, Nedyeljko

10 went out into the garden in front of our family home

11 and he only recalls that he was hit by several

12 bullets. All his internal organs have been permanently

13 damaged, what remains is the heart and his left kidney,

14 they were unimpaired. He was saved at the Franciscan

15 hospital in Nova Bila, and he and the other wounded at

16 the end of the month were taken by brave pilots of the

17 HVO against firing and shooting from the Muslim

18 positions. They succeeded in transporting him to

19 Split.

20 I thought that event was the most difficult

21 and worst event that could happen to my family and

22 myself, but I was wrong. I was proved wrong. It was

23 only the beginning of the tragedy that was to befall

24 us.

25 The attack on my home village of Buhine Kuce

Page 16042

1 began before dawn on the 9th of January, 1994. I saw

2 Muslim soldiers shooting and running around and

3 throwing bombs into the house, grenades into the house

4 and storming our houses. We ran out of the house, my

5 father first, Dragan; my mother, Ankica; my grandfather

6 was in Vitez because he had already been wounded by a

7 sniper, and my grandmother, Mira, was with him. And I

8 saw my mother fall down by the fence. I saw nothing

9 else, anymore. They told me that he was taken away,

10 and my uncle and his son were killed there.

11 I took up Branislav, I took him up into my

12 arms, he woke up later, we ran down the meadow towards

13 the road. And then I was shot in my right hand, I

14 could go no further and I told Branislav to run away

15 towards the UNPROFOR base on the other side of the

16 road.

17 He called out to me and he cried, and I saw

18 that he was holding his intestines, his stomach. We

19 rushed to the road and were intercepted by the Muslim

20 soldiers. One of them said to kill us and the others

21 asked them to save our lives and let us go free.

22 On the road we saw the UNPROFOR men, but they

23 didn't even turn to look at us. Nobody saw the burial

24 of our nearest or dearest or the funeral rites which we

25 were not able to remember. Branislav's conduct in the

Page 16043

1 hospital, he do not know what had happened to our

2 parents because he had suffered a great shock, and we

3 didn't tell him. We knew that somebody told him that

4 our mother had lost a leg. He asked us whether our

5 mother could live with just one leg and we told him

6 that she could survive with just one leg. And then he

7 asked me, 'Why doesn't mommy come to see me in

8 hospital, then? There are a lot of women come here

9 walking about on crutches.' Today Branislav knows the

10 whole truth, he knows about our mother and father and

11 Mirko and our relative, Drazen.

12 After the terrible injuries Nedyeljko had

13 seven operations, Branislav had one operation and I,

14 myself, had six operations. And so the war and the

15 Muslim aggressors will have left permanent scars on our

16 bodies, but the scars they have left on our hearts and

17 in our souls are much worse, they are scars that will

18 never heal. They are living wounds that are opened up

19 again and again and bleed again and again and never

20 heal but hurt increasingly strongly.

21 But I will not allow people who do this to us

22 to see me broken down. I shall fight for a loftier

23 future and a better morrow for my brothers and myself.

24 I do not hate anybody, and in my heart there is no room

25 for hatred. I only want people to be held responsible

Page 16044

1 for their crimes, the crimes that they have committed,

2 and I don't wish criminals of this kind to move around

3 free, and to serve as an example to others that they

4 will go unpunished for the crimes that they have

5 committed. They must be brought to justice, because

6 people who have killed once are capable of killing

7 again.

8 They must, indictments must be raised against

9 the Muslims. The Muslims always had a stronger media

10 and they portrayed themselves as being the only

11 victims. It is time for people to hear our tragedy and

12 pain, we have to keep reminding people of this, because

13 if we don't tell people of the things that we have

14 suffered --"

15 Q. We have completed, thank you.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Nobilo.

17 Mr. Harmon?

18 Would you like to take a break?

19 THE WITNESS: (Nods).

20 JUDGE JORDA: Would you like a break? All

21 right. We will take a 10-minute break and then we will

22 resume.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

25 JUDGE JORDA: We can resume now.

Page 16045

1 Marjana, do you feel better? Are you okay?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE JORDA: The people took good care of

4 you? Did they give you some hot chocolate, something

5 to -- it was okay; wasn't it? You didn't have any --

6 A. I had a glass of water.

7 JUDGE JORDA: Just a glass of water? That's

8 not too much. They should have given you something

9 more than just a glass of water. All right.

10 Mr. Harmon. All right. The Prosecutor is going to ask

11 you some questions now.

12 MR. HARMON: Ms. Vidovic, I have no

13 questions. I sincerely wish you find peace and hope

14 you find peace in your life.

15 I have nothing further, Mr. President, Judge

16 Shahabuddeen.

17 JUDGE JORDA: I don't have any questions to

18 ask you either. There's going to be no redirect

19 because there was no cross-examination. I have no

20 questions about your testimony.

21 What do you plan to do? Do you know what

22 you'd like to do later now you're grown up, you're 17.

23 THE WITNESS: I'll continue my education.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Do you have an idea of what

25 kind of profession you'd like to go into?

Page 16046

1 THE WITNESS: When I was wounded I wanted to

2 become a nurse, but then I didn't attend school

3 regularly, and then I didn't want to waste this one

4 year just like that, so that's how I went to this

5 commercial school for shopkeepers.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Well, as the Prosecutor said,

7 we hope that you're going to have better things happen

8 to you in life, better than of what you've had up to

9 now. What you said in your essay, I suppose you're

10 going to try to apply that in your life. That's what

11 has to be done.

12 All right. Good luck to you. Good luck.

13 Thank you for coming.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

15 MR. NOBILO: The next witness is Mira Garic.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Let's have Mira Garic brought

17 into the courtroom, please.

18 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if I may, with

19 regard to this witness --

20 JUDGE JORDA: I informed counsel this morning

21 that the Prosecutor agrees to a procedure for this

22 witness to allow this witness to move ahead with

23 direct. That is series of documents that I received

24 this morning, and given the fact that we got notice a

25 few days ago that she would be a witness and we haven't

Page 16047

1 had the seven days notice, that we would, undoubtedly,

2 defer her cross until Monday.

3 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Just a moment

4 there. Before we have the witness brought in, how is

5 this day going to go? We have the direct-examination

6 of Mira Garic. It's a woman, right?

7 MR. NOBILO: Yes. Unfortunately,

8 Mr. President, we don't have any witnesses left. We

9 had provided for seven witnesses for three working

10 days, and we didn't even think that we could finish

11 seven witnesses in three days, but, see, we went so

12 far, because as a rule, the Prosecutor did not

13 cross-examine. So at this point in time we do not have

14 any new witnesses.

15 Could we perhaps have the cross sometime this

16 afternoon, so this the lady would not have to stay for

17 the weekend?

18 MR. KEHOE: No, I don't think so,

19 Mr. President, because there is additional information

20 that needs to be reviewed, I just got a couple of

21 things this morning that references back to other

22 things. I simply don't know how long that's going to

23 take.

24 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Nobody is forced to

25 do what he can't do. Perhaps we could use the

Page 16048

1 afternoon, if my colleague agrees, and I'll also turn

2 to the legal officer, perhaps we could argue in closed

3 session about the expert that you called in.

4 Apparently there are procedural problems. There is a

5 position that the Prosecutor has taken. Perhaps we

6 could do that this afternoon. It wouldn't take a lot

7 of time but it would save some time on Monday.

8 Judge Shahabuddeen, would you agree with

9 that? And the legal officer? All right. Then we'll

10 finish with the witness. The cross-examination will be

11 conducted on Monday, and this afternoon, if you like,

12 we could meet at 3.00, we don't have to start at 2.30,

13 we could start at 3.00 for arguments in closed session

14 for the principles that are arising from the testimony

15 of the expert, because the Prosecutor has a position on

16 this. Do you agree with that, Mr. Nobilo?

17 MR. NOBILO: I agree. Thank you.

18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. As regards gaining

19 time, you all seem very surprised that we've gained

20 some time here. What I'm saying is that what went on

21 this week is something that should be normal. You

22 should have a witness that comes in at the request of

23 the Defence or the request of the Prosecution, and you

24 should able to focus on what you expect the witness to

25 say and not have that witness tell you about the whole

Page 16049

1 war, instead of asking things that he doesn't know

2 about. Therefore, you have -- it's no problem with the

3 cross-examination. You could even do it without a

4 cross-examination. That's how you can go quickly.

5 That's the procedure which seems natural to me, rather

6 than the one that we've been seeing in this courtroom.

7 All right. Having given you these good words

8 of wisdom, I think we can now move to the testimony of

9 the next witness. Mrs. Garic; is that right? Could I

10 have the summary, Mr. Registrar?

11 MR. NOBILO: Garic, yes.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Have the witness brought in,

13 please. Mira Garic.

14 (The witness entered court)


16 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me, Madam?


18 JUDGE JORDA: Please tell us your names, your

19 given names, and then you are to take an oath.

20 THE WITNESS: Mira Garic. I solemnly declare

21 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and

22 nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated, Mrs. Garic.

24 You are at the International Criminal Tribunal, which

25 is trying the accused who is in this courtroom, that is

Page 16050

1 Colonel Blaskic.

2 Try to relax, you have nothing to fear. If

3 you don't feel well, we can interrupt the proceedings.

4 You have come at the request of Mr. Nobilo, who is

5 going to ask you a few questions. Then the Prosecutor

6 will ask you questions as well, but he can't do that

7 today, you'll have to come back on Monday. We regret

8 that, but that's how things are. We can't operate in

9 any other way. Try to relax and don't be afraid.

10 Especially don't be afraid.

11 Mr. Nobilo?

12 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:

13 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Mrs. Garic, please tell the Court where and

15 when you were born?

16 A. I was born in Vitez on the 26th of October,

17 1954.

18 Q. Could you please describe your family before

19 the tragic events?

20 A. I had three children, my husband Milko, and a

21 daughter and a son, Milan and Ivan.

22 Q. How old were Sanya, Ivan and Milan at the

23 time of these tragic events?

24 A. Sanya was 18, Ivan was 15 and Milan 12, 12

25 and a half.

Page 16051

1 Q. We shall focus on the main event that we

2 actually invited you for, and that is the day of the

3 10th of June, 1993. Tell me, on that day and during

4 those days, was there a lull?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when we say a "lull," what does that

7 mean?

8 A. That means that there wasn't any combat

9 action, there was only one shell that fell that

10 afternoon, around 2.00, I think, but it fell in town.

11 So it was very quiet until this shell fell.

12 Q. Tell me, when the fighting began and from the

13 beginning of the war in Vitez, what was the situation

14 like with civilians, children? Was there

15 restriction -- what were the restrictions in movement

16 and what did you do as a mother? Did you keep your

17 children at home? What did you do? Could you describe

18 this a bit?

19 A. Life was very difficult, very tense. We

20 didn't let our children go around very much. We were

21 afraid of shelling and of snipers, and children spent

22 most of the time in shelters. That day, when they were

23 to be killed, there was a bit of a lull and we let them

24 go out. They were in a place that was protected from

25 snipers, and we did not expect this shell that would

Page 16052

1 actually kill the children.

2 Q. When you say "sniper" -- you've been

3 mentioning snipers. Obviously they were quite a

4 problem. Did children get killed by snipers?

5 A. Yes. Yes. Mostly civilians in our street,

6 where three civilians got killed by snipers.

7 Q. Please tell the Court where the sniper

8 operated from?

9 A. From the Mahala, from the Muslim area.

10 Q. Is the other name for Mahala, Stari Vitez?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Please describe that day. Around what time

13 did the children go out into the street to get some

14 fresh air?

15 A. They went out around 6.00 or 6.30 in the

16 afternoon. The shell fell. They went out to just get

17 a bit of fresh air.

18 Q. Before we move on to this event, could you

19 tell us what children were there, to the best your

20 recollection? It was your children and the children of

21 the neighbours?

22 A. Yes, my three children, Sanya Ivan and Milan,

23 and then also my brother-in-law's children Marina,

24 Marinko, Dario.

25 There were a lot of children. There were

Page 16053

1 children of refugees of Perica Grebenar, Augustina and

2 Velimir were their names. Then the Anticevic children,

3 the little Boris, and then Vlado Ramljak's son Dragan,

4 and there were a lot of other young children. Also,

5 before our children got killed, the children of our

6 Muslim neighbour Hakija Cengic were there an hour or

7 two before that, and before this would happen they went

8 indoors and they never showed up again, so they

9 stayed.

10 Q. Tell me, can we say that there were exactly

11 17 children there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Aged from 8 to 18 perhaps?

14 A. Yes, yes. Even 7 -- from 7 to 18.

15 Q. All right. So ages 7 to 18.

16 This area where the children played, you said

17 that it was sniper safe. What did that mean?

18 A. Yes. There were houses all around, and all

19 of us in the neighbourhood thought that that was a

20 protected area, that a sniper could not see them from

21 anywhere, and the children prepared a table for

22 themselves where they could sit and talk, and they

23 didn't expect a shell.

24 Q. So in the afternoon, the children were out in

25 the fresh air, right?

Page 16054

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when did this grenade explode?

3 A. Around fifteen to nine in the evening,

4 because it was a very warm day, this was summertime, so

5 visibility was good.

6 Q. Tell me, was this an attack on Vitez? Was

7 this a series of shots from small arms or from infantry

8 weapons?

9 A. No. It was very quiet. This was this one

10 single shell that hit the children, and after that

11 there were no grenades or shells, nothing.

12 Q. So before this shell and after this shell

13 there weren't any other shells, no other attacks on

14 Vitez?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Before we move on the sight you saw, could

17 you describe what the men told you about, your husband,

18 your neighbours, et cetera? What did they establish?

19 Where did the shell come from, what messages were

20 heard?

21 A. Yes. They said that it came from Grbavica,

22 from Bukve, and shouts were heard after the children

23 were hit and after we parents started screaming. At

24 the lines -- and the lines they heard shouts saying,

25 "You want Herceg-Bosna? There's Herceg-Bosna for you.

Page 16055

1 We're going to cook your salad for you."

2 Q. Tell me, after this shell fell you ran out of

3 the house. How far away were you from this place?

4 A. Yes, I was even outside, perhaps 7, or 8 or

5 10 metres away. There was only a street in between, a

6 village road really.

7 I ran out, I saw this terrible sight, and I

8 saw a lot of smoke and it was very hot, and I just saw

9 fragments of dismembered children's bodies.

10 Q. Who did you see first?

11 A. Boris Anticevic. He was sitting on the bench

12 at the table and he did not have half of his neck and

13 half of his eye.

14 Q. How old was he?

15 A. Boris was nine.

16 Q. And who was the next one you saw?

17 A. And then I saw my late son, who did not have

18 his head on, only a bit of skin, his hair. I managed

19 to gather his brain, and then I saw Dragan --

20 Q. And how old was your son Milan then?

21 A. He was less than 12.

22 Q. And who was next?

23 A. Dragan Ramljak. Yes, Dragan Ramljak was 15.

24 Q. What he did look like?

25 A. He looked terrible, terrible. Half of his

Page 16056

1 back wasn't there. He was bending across the bench.

2 He didn't have half of his head. It was terrible.

3 Q. What did the next child look like?

4 A. Also he didn't have many parts of his body.

5 Q. Did you see Sanya Krizanovic too?

6 A. Yes, Sanya was sitting next to my son, and

7 she was hit in the head and in the legs. And at that

8 time she was still showing signs of life and she was

9 transferred to the war hospital in Vitez, and after

10 that to Nova Bila where she died.

11 Q. And Ivan Garic?

12 A. Ivan Garic is my son.

13 Q. How old was he?

14 A. He was 15 years old. He was sitting next to

15 Sanya and Boris. He survived. He is 70 per cent

16 disabled, he doesn't have part of his skull and he

17 cannot use his left leg below his knee. He is well

18 now, thank God, he had a brain concussion before that,

19 though.

20 Q. What did your son tell you then?

21 A. He said, "Mommy, run and help my sister, my

22 brother has been killed and take care of my sister".

23 Q. You saw Nadiko (phoen) Grebenar?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How old was he?

Page 16057

1 A. He was 11.

2 Q. Velimir Grebenar?

3 A. Yes, yes, and Augustina is his sister. He

4 was also a terrible sight. Various parts of his body

5 were missing too.

6 Q. At that time Augustina Grebenar was alive;

7 right?

8 A. Yes, yes, she was also wounded very

9 seriously, but she was given signs of life and taken to

10 the hospital in Nova Bila where she also died.

11 Q. When you say to Nova Bila, just tell us about

12 this. Was this a hospital, an official institution?

13 What was it?

14 A. No, it was a church hospital, and the

15 conditions were impossible, extremely difficult.

16 Concrete walls, that is where surgery was performed.

17 The wounded regrettably had to lie in the pews, it was

18 terrible.

19 Q. And the dead, were they buried the same

20 evening?

21 A. Yes, yes, during the night, before daybreak,

22 so that the sniper from Mahala wouldn't start operating

23 again. Some at 1.00, some at 3.00 a.m., all the five

24 boys were buried during the night, and the girls were

25 buried early in the morning at 6.00. My daughter Sanya

Page 16058

1 died in the hospital in Split and she was buried only

2 afterwards.

3 Q. Tell me, in Vitez was it customary to have

4 funerals during the night?

5 A. No, never before that, never before the

6 conflict, but then it had to be that way. Because it

7 is customary to have a dignified funeral, but we could

8 not do that for our children, we didn't even dare leave

9 our houses, only the fathers and those who were in

10 charge of all the arrangements. So they were simply

11 buried without a procession, without the procession

12 that --

13 Q. Because of the snipers from Mahala; right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 MR. NOBILO: Could we please see two videos

16 now, and could we have the lights dimmed? And may I

17 just caution everyone, particularly in the audience,

18 the first video is extremely disturbing and there are

19 terrible scenes, and perhaps people who cannot take it

20 should leave the audience immediately.

21 JUDGE JORDA: Let me repeat what Mr. Nobilo

22 said, let me repeat it for the public. I haven't seen

23 the video myself, but if counsel is saying that, then

24 it should be taken seriously. All right, we can

25 begin.

Page 16059

1 Madam, if this is not bearable to you tell us

2 and we can stop it and do it again afterwards.

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

4 (Videotape played)

5 A. This is my son, Milan. The voice that you

6 could hear now is my husband's voice. He fell by his

7 son. You can see, without half of his head. This is

8 the young Velimir Grebenar, and this is the house that

9 they got out of. Dragan Ramljak. Again, Milan. This

10 is the funeral that took place. This is Velimir

11 Grebenar's uncle. The father was in hospital as he

12 buried them. This is my husband, brother. This is

13 Anticevic, Boris's father. This is Boris's father.

14 Q. The number up here is the year of birth and

15 the lower figure is the year when they were killed;

16 right?

17 A. Yes, that's right. This is my son's cross.

18 This is Dragan Ramljak's father. At that moment they

19 found out about young Velimir's sister, that she died,

20 too.

21 Q. Before we move on to the next video, I wanted

22 to ask you a question which may be superfluous; but

23 what was the effect of this?

24 A. This caused rage among people. And how?

25 Killing children in such a way, it is such a crime

Page 16060

1 that, at least I consider it to be an abominable crime.

2 Q. You mentioned Hakija Cengic who lived in your

3 neighbourhood?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that the same Hakija Cengic who was

6 commander of the Territorial Defence before Sefkija

7 Didic?

8 A. Yes, yes, he was commander of the Territorial

9 Defence. Well, thank God before the war we had quite a

10 relationship, I mean, before they were killed my

11 children even used to spend the night with their

12 children.

13 Our military police, in order to prevent

14 greater incident, to prevent anyone from taking

15 revenge, they took Hakija and his entire family, since

16 this was a Muslim shell, by UNPROFOR he was taken away

17 to Zenica.

18 MR. NOBILO: Could we see the other videotape

19 now? The next video is on the other videotape I gave

20 you this morning.

21 (Videotape played)

22 A. This is Marina Garic. She is disabled 70 per

23 cent, she is my brother-in-law's daughter. She was

24 wounded by the same shell.

25 Q. Is this a scene from the makeshift hospital

Page 16061

1 in the church?

2 A. Yes, yes, her stomach was affected.

3 Q. Has she survived?

4 A. Yes, yes, but she is disabled 70 per cent.

5 MR. NOBILO: I wish to point out that these

6 videotapes were made by amateurs, but this is the only

7 thing we have. It is authentic and we wanted to show

8 it.

9 Q. Do you recognise this little boy?

10 A. Let me just take a better look. Yes, it's a

11 bit poor. This is Cecura, his brother was killed, and

12 he also has a 70 per cent disability. He was heavily

13 wounded in the leg. This is Milan Krizanovic, his

14 sister Sanya was killed, and he was also seriously

15 wounded in both legs, also 70 per cent disabled.

16 Q. Did he know at that time that his sister was

17 killed?

18 A. No, no. His mother even had to wear white

19 and pink so that he wouldn't notice anything. Only

20 five or six days later when his condition was

21 stabilised, it is only then that they told him. This

22 is the Cecura boy. This is my son, Ivan, who could not

23 move at all then, for three-and-a-half months he was

24 handicapped. Then Cecura, again.

25 Q. Krizanovic?

Page 16062

1 A. Yes, Krizanovic. Sanya Krizanovic's brother,

2 the Sanya Krizanovic who got killed.

3 MR. NOBILO: All right, thank you, that will

4 do. We can stop the tape at this point.

5 Q. In addition to those messages received from

6 the other side, were you telephoned, where from, and

7 could you explain this to the Court?

8 A. Yes, yes, we received quite a few telephone

9 calls, some of them were very bad. They cursed our

10 Ustasha mothers. This was a male voice from Mahala,

11 and he said that he wanted to talk to my daughter,

12 Sanya, and wanted to go out with her.

13 Q. And that was when she was already dead;

14 right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Did everyone know she was dead, was it

17 broadcast on the radio and everything?

18 A. Yes, yes, this was three or four months after

19 she was killed, everybody knew about it.

20 Q. Tell me, what was the feeling of the general

21 public, the man in the street, towards the Mahala and

22 the army in the Mahala?

23 A. We were all afraid, we never knew what they

24 would do. We were always, we were always prepared to

25 see them do anything, and provoke us in different ways.

Page 16063

1 Q. And what was the feeling of the men towards

2 Blaskic because of his attitude towards the Mahala?

3 Could you explain that?

4 A. They were even angry, I don't want to use

5 another word. They thought that he should have been

6 much more forceful, he was too soft on this. When the

7 women went out, and when the U.N. was taking food to

8 Mahala we wanted to see what was going on, because we

9 knew after food was brought to Mahala, an hour later we

10 would be shelled and shooting would start.

11 Women with young children and my

12 sister-in-law, the wife of my brother who was killed in

13 Buhine Kuce, and many other women and children went

14 out, and Mr. Blaskic said they should get out of the

15 way. He did not allow the convoy to be searched. I

16 think that he was even prepared to have the police send

17 these women away by force so that everything would

18 remain peaceful.

19 Q. Was any mention made of Blaskic forbidding an

20 all-out attack on Mahala, the use of artillery, et

21 cetera?

22 A. Yes, yes, every time they said it is

23 Blaskic's fault, he's the one who stopped this, he is

24 the one who doesn't let anyone take any action against

25 Mahala.

Page 16064

1 MR. NOBILO: I have a set of documents here

2 and I would like to have distributed for identification

3 purposes. I suggest that the entire set should be

4 given the same number and then have subnumbers from 1

5 to 7.

6 THE REGISTRAR: This is D467, which is the

7 cassette which we have just seen; and when you see the

8 children playing, that's D466 in the previous cassette;

9 and when you see the children lying on the floor is

10 D465.

11 Q. Mrs. Garic, please take a look at these

12 photographs and just identify them, please. Number 1,

13 who is this?

14 A. Sanya Krizanovic.

15 Q. Number 2?

16 A. Dragan Ramljak.

17 Q. Number 3?

18 A. Sanya Garic.

19 Q. Number 4?

20 A. Milan Garic.

21 Q. Number 5?

22 A. Velimir Grebenar.

23 Q. Number 6?

24 A. Augustina Grebenar.

25 Q. And number 7?

Page 16065

1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter

2 couldn't hear the answer.

3 Q. Which one of the children is missing?

4 A. Anticevic Boris.

5 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have completed

6 the direct examination. I'm sorry, I would like to

7 tender into evidence cassettes D465 and D466 and

8 photographs D467.

9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, do you still

10 say that you are not in a position to conduct the

11 cross-examination? I think that the essential points

12 would be to know where did the bomb come from, from

13 what direction; or are you going to look for

14 clarifications about tactical or strategic points?

15 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, excuse me.

16 Mr. President, I certainly don't want to

17 belabour the point, and I think when it isn't necessary

18 we haven't asked any questions of many of these

19 witnesses. I just feel it's my obligation in

20 representing the Office of the Prosecutor just to take

21 a look at these matters. As you can see, and I

22 mentioned it to Mr. Nobilo, the witness summary is

23 very, very sparse. It doesn't mention exactly where

24 this took place, et cetera. So there are some other

25 matters we need to look at. I do apologise for the

Page 16066

1 witness, having to call her back, but I feel it is

2 necessary under the circumstances. I must say, Mr.

3 President, it could very well be --

4 JUDGE JORDA: You wouldn't be able to do that

5 -- well, we're supposed to start discussing the

6 problem of the professor, the expert witness, in the

7 afternoon. By 5.00 in the afternoon, wouldn't you have

8 the time to conduct your cross-examination? I'm just

9 thinking about the witness. This is a witness who has

10 suffered tremendously, and to require that she remain

11 in the Hague -- well, I can't go any further. Actually

12 I can go further, I can stop things, but the Judges

13 can't do that, there must be a balance in the trial

14 which has to be respected. But are you sure that you,

15 after a year-and-a-half of this trial, that you don't

16 have enough material, enough documentary evidence -- I

17 suppose you might want to challenge the direction from

18 which the bomb came from, which hill, whether or not it

19 was occupied by the Muslims. I suppose that is your

20 concern, and I understand it. Nonetheless, if you do

21 insist, we can have the witness brought back. I can't

22 tell you anything to the contrary.

23 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I am trying to be

24 accommodating. The procedure that I, the procedure

25 that I offered was simply accepting the procedure that

Page 16067

1 was offered by the Defence, which was the delay of the

2 cross-examination. That was simply what I was doing.

3 They had offered to delay the cross-examination, given

4 the fact that the information had not been given to the

5 Prosecutor in a timely fashion.

6 Nevertheless, given the fact that we will

7 start at 3.00, if I can report back to Your Honours,

8 and if the witness can come at 3.00, I can give some

9 type of indication if we will be prepared to move at

10 5.00 and question the witness at 5.00.

11 JUDGE JORDA: Even at 5.00, that would be

12 fine, or 4.30. Let's see, I see that Mr. Fourmy is

13 making a sign to me. I think it is not about the

14 interpretation. You have the microphone, please take

15 the microphone. I'm trying to find solutions to the

16 problems, specifically those relating to the problem,

17 and we could start at 2.30, for example, have a closed

18 session during which we could discuss the expert, that

19 is going to take 30 minutes. Then perhaps the

20 cross-examination could be -- well, how long will you

21 need for the cross-examination?

22 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I just got a stack

23 of materials this morning. This was a witness that

24 wasn't supposed to come until next week. I got a stack

25 of materials, I haven't even read those materials. It

Page 16068

1 could very well be, Mr. President, I have nothing to

2 ask this witness. I'm just trying to fulfil my

3 obligations.

4 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Here is what we're

5 going to do. We will resume our hearing at 2.30, not

6 3.00, 2.30, but it will be in closed session. Between

7 now and then you will have the time to eat a sandwich,

8 like every day, and time to read all the documents.

9 And then afterwards we might move to the

10 cross-examination. All right.

11 The witness will remain available to the

12 Tribunal this afternoon, it's in her own interest.

13 Perhaps we won't have to have you come back. I will

14 have done as much as I can, but we can't go beyond

15 that. You understand the Prosecutor has rights, as

16 well.

17 All right, we're going to suspend the hearing

18 and we will resume at 2.30 in a closed session, in

19 respect of the problem in principle regarding the

20 expert witness; but the witness here will remain at the

21 Tribunal, remain available, and the Prosecutor will

22 tell us that he can or cannot conduct the

23 cross-examination. If he can, perhaps you will leave a

24 little bit later, but everything will be finished;

25 otherwise you will have to stay in The Hague over the

Page 16069

1 weekend. That's all that we can do for right now.

2 The registrar is turning to me, did I make a

3 mistake, Mr. Dubuisson?

4 THE REGISTRAR: No, it's that this hearing

5 this afternoon will be in closed session.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that's right, 2.30.

7 Mr. Nobilo, you want to say something?

8 MR. NOBILO: Very briefly. The exhibit we

9 tendered with regard to the previous witness, actually

10 I forgot to tender it officially into evidence, the

11 previous witness's place of residence, the map where I

12 marked it, so I would like to offer it into evidence

13 now, please.

14 MR. KEHOE: No objection from the

15 Prosecution.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe is not going to

17 refuse you anything, he never does. All right. We can

18 suspend and resume at 2.30. Try to rest up a bit,

19 witness.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.45 p.m.






Page 16070













13 remainder of afternoon is Motion Hearing in closed session