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  1. 1 Friday, 22 January, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.49

    4 (The accused entered court)

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Good morning to all

    6 the interpreters, to the court reporters, to Defence

    7 and Prosecution counsel. Good morning to the accused.

    8 I want to thank on behalf of Judge Shahabuddeen for the

    9 information that you gave to us, and the letter will be

    10 given to President McDonald.

    11 The registrar mentioned there were some

    12 problems here. Mr. Hayman or Mr. Nobilo, will you tell

    13 me what the problems are. Apparently, our schedule is

    14 going to be somewhat perturbed this morning. Is that

    15 true, Mr. Hayman?

    16 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, Mr. President. Your

    17 Honours may have noted the fog this morning. It caused

    18 some difficulties, among other things, with getting

    19 witnesses here last night. In fact, there were

    20 witnesses that didn't get here last night that hoped to

    21 get here. But this situation developed late in the

    22 evening, and so what we would like to do is we do have

    23 some other business with respect to the Defence case,

    24 documents and tapes. I am not sure that we will use

    25 all of the time today, but I think we have a couple

  2. 1 hours of material that can productively be presented.

    2 If there is material that doesn't need to be viewed,

    3 but can simply be tendered, we certainly invite the

    4 Court's comments in that regard.

    5 Mr. Nobilo will be making this presentation.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Hayman, for

    7 those clarifications. Yes, there is a lot of fog.

    8 These are things that happen and sometimes it also

    9 happened to the Prosecution witnesses.

    10 Mr. Prosecutor, I suppose there are no

    11 objections on your part. Should the Defence produce

    12 its evidence under a different form?

    13 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I can't comment

    14 on how the Defence shall use its allotted time. We can

    15 proceed in any way that the Court and counsel wish.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Shahabuddeen. Judge

    17 Shahabuddeen agrees. I agree with him. We can proceed

    18 that way, that is to try to use the time profitably.

    19 If we don't use the entire morning, I can assure

    20 Mr. Nobilo and Mr. Hayman that we have enough work to

    21 do in our own offices, but the idea is to try not to

    22 waste too much time.

    23 Mr. Nobilo, are you going to produce

    24 evidence? Would you like there to be a discussion

    25 about this or do you want to present the materials the

  3. 1 way Mr. Harmon did? Exhibit 468. That reminds me.

    2 What's 467? I believe you had presented it and there

    3 was no Defence comment. Is that right? I am trying to

    4 set the rules of the game today so that there be no

    5 discussions afterwards.

    6 Mr. Harmon, you have already done that. You

    7 are a specialist in that business, that is producing

    8 additional evidence.

    9 MR. HARMON: Yes, I am, and thank you very

    10 much for that recognition, Judge Shahabuddeen. It's

    11 456 and 406 are the two exhibits, and I see that

    12 Mr. Nobilo has a large pile of documents that we will

    13 proceed any way the Court feels is appropriate.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, you can begin with

    15 your pile of documents. All right. The floor is

    16 yours.

    17 MR. NOBILO: Well, as you've seen, the

    18 Defence is quick to learn from the Prosecution, but it

    19 does not have as many documents as before. I would

    20 like these documents to be handed up now, please.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: The first is 528, the one

    22 that deals with Travnik. The one that deals with Novi

    23 Travnik, the 21st of May, is D529. And the third, 530,

    24 for the document dated in Vitez the 20 May, 1997.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Fourmy, if you could

  4. 1 approach the bench, please.

    2 MR. NOBILO: The first document is D528 and

    3 it is the municipality of Travnik, the government of

    4 the municipality of Travnik, section for economy and

    5 reparations, and they furnish the Defence with data

    6 regarding war reparation, damage caused by the army of

    7 BiH and the troops of the MOS in the municipality of

    8 Travnik. From this document, and I am speaking of page

    9 1, it appears that; in the municipality of Travnik in

    10 1991 there was 70.402 inhabitants. Of that number,

    11 26.118 were Croats by nationality.

    12 From the municipality of Travnik, 19.300

    13 inhabitants left, of which in the area of Nova Bila,

    14 which is part of the Novi Travnik area under HVO

    15 control, 2.300 refugees settled, and the other Croats

    16 that left, that is to say 17.000 Croat refugees, were

    17 settled in the neighbouring municipalities of Novi

    18 Travnik, Vitez and Busovaca, and also in Herzegovina,

    19 the Republic of Croatia, and foreign countries as

    20 well.

    21 Of the 19.300 Croats, emanates from the

    22 Balkans, 2.206 Croats were exiled by the Serbs and

    23 17.094 were exiled from the municipality of Travnik by

    24 the army of the BiH and the troops of the MOS. In the

    25 text, furthermore, the facilities devastated are

  5. 1 enumerated, and I would like to draw attention to a

    2 category of devastated objects, that is houses, Croat

    3 houses, damaged between 60 and 80 per cent, and burnt

    4 houses, and these owned by Croats.

    5 There are 1.450 of these burnt down houses

    6 that suffered damages, 1.450, whereas the other houses

    7 also enumerated, we have the figures between -- for 20

    8 per cent, 20 to 40 per cent, 40 to 60 per cent and 60

    9 to 100 per cent, and can you see this all on page 1 of

    10 that document.

    11 Along with this document, the municipality of

    12 Travnik sent the Defence examples of citizens sending

    13 documents to the Travnik municipality, which was the

    14 basis, formed the basis and groundwork of the

    15 commission to establish the wartime reparations. They

    16 are the individual cases of the individual households.

    17 And after a series of individual descriptions of this

    18 kind supplied by a number of citizens, we have a table,

    19 and the table illustrates the fact that the BiH Army --

    20 from the effects of the BiH Army, over 50 villages

    21 suffered damages from that. The table shows the number

    22 of inhabitants in each of the villages, the total

    23 number of inhabitants, that is the first table, the

    24 first column.

    25 Then we come to the Croats. The first

  6. 1 column, which begins with the number 276, is the total

    2 number of inhabitants in one given village.

    3 The second column is the number of Croats in

    4 each particular village.

    5 The third column represents the total number

    6 of houses damaged in each village.

    7 Then we come to four final columns, which

    8 show the damage done, up to 20 per cent, from 20 to 40

    9 per cent, between 40 and 60 per cent, and 60 to 100 per

    10 cent damage and destruction. So we see that perhaps

    11 the most damaged houses were in Dzelilovac, 123 houses

    12 were 100 per cent destroyed; followed by Grahovcici,

    13 where 140 houses were completely destroyed; Polje

    14 S.Gavrancic with 78 houses, 62 houses and so on. You

    15 can read down the table.

    16 The next table represents the nationality

    17 composition or ethnic composition of the Travnik

    18 municipality taken from the population census in 1991.

    19 I am not going to comment on that because it is

    20 self-explanatory. You can see the population structure

    21 there.

    22 So that is document D528.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: As regards the second chart, is

    24 that the one that begins with the Bandol --

    25 MR. NOBILO: Both tables begin with the place

  7. 1 called Bandol, but in the second table, the

    2 first figure is 56.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, you are right.

    4 MR. NOBILO: Whereas in Bandol, 276 and so

    5 on.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Thank you. This is

    7 a chart, then, showing the ethnic composition?

    8 MR. NOBILO: The structure of the population

    9 according to the ethnic affiliation.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry to interrupt you.

    11 There is a problem with the French transcript. Perhaps

    12 we should take a break so we can fix the problem.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: A French transcript problem?

    14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: And you want to take a 5-minute

    16 break?

    17 THE REGISTRAR: If possible.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: All right. The Judges will

    19 withdraw. We'll suspend the hearing for a few

    20 moments.

    21 --- Recess taken at 10.09 a.m.

    22 --- On resuming at 10.18 a.m.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We can resume now.

    24 Please be seated.

    25 Mr. Dubuisson, is the French transcript

  8. 1 fixed?

    2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you very much,

    3 Your Honour. The problem has been resolved.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: You know, French is a fragile

    5 language in this Tribunal. It can even be affected by

    6 the fog. All right. We can continue now.

    7 Mr. Nobilo, have you finished with 528 or do

    8 you want to go back to it?

    9 Mr. Harmon?

    10 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President, Judge

    11 Shahabuddeen, I would like to ask my colleague to

    12 clarify something on this particular document, and it

    13 is in respect of the source of this document because I

    14 see on the original a stamp that says "The Croatian

    15 Republic of Herceg-Bosna," and I see the on letterhead

    16 of the letter to Mr. Nobilo, the Federation of BH, the

    17 government of the municipality of Travnik, and just to

    18 clarify the issue in the document, if Mr. Nobilo is

    19 able to give us that, whether this is the Croatian

    20 portion of the federation and whether this is from the

    21 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna.

    22 MR. NOBILO: Yes, I received this from the

    23 department, section for economy of the municipality of

    24 Travnik some time in May 1997. Why they don't use the

    25 old stamp, I don't know, but the representative of the

  9. 1 government, Vlado Lovrinovic, sent this to me, and

    2 that's all I know about it. In 1997, he was the

    3 representative of the section for economy of the

    4 municipality of Travnik. Whether he is that today, I

    5 don't know.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Is this a document from an

    7 authority that came out of the Dayton Agreements; is

    8 that true?

    9 MR. NOBILO: Yes. It was in the course of

    10 1997 when the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

    11 established, but changes go a little more slowly

    12 there. Some of them have old stamps, other

    13 institutions have the new stamp, but I do know where I

    14 got if from.

    15 MR. HARMON: The Croatian Republic of

    16 Herceg-Bosna did not exist after the Dayton

    17 Agreements.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: All right. No, I understand

    19 that. See, my document D528, in the English version,

    20 says "Bosnia-Herzegovina," the federation of -- so it

    21 says "la Federation," the federation, so it is the

    22 Croat Muslim federation. I suppose that's what you're

    23 talking about.

    24 MR. NOBILO: Yes, that's exact, and the

    25 municipality of Travnik from the Croatian and Muslim

  10. 1 federation.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, all right.

    3 MR. NOBILO: It is the section for economy

    4 and reparations for wartime reparation and recording

    5 them.

    6 MR. HARMON: My last point of clarification

    7 for my colleague, is this the Croat side of the

    8 federation that is the source of this document?

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I think that's what's

    10 important. I suppose that in the municipality of

    11 Travnik government, what was its ethnic composition in

    12 the government, and this government or municipality of

    13 Travnik is the one that set this up because it's got a

    14 reparations section, I suppose, in order to make good

    15 on damages that were caused during the war; is that

    16 right, Mr. Nobilo?

    17 MR. NOBILO: Yes, you're quite right, Your

    18 Honour. It is a joint municipality, Croatian and

    19 Muslim, but Vlado Lovrinovic, the individual himself,

    20 according to his mandate between Muslims and Croats,

    21 was appointed a Croat and head of the section for

    22 economy and reparations, so the municipality has both

    23 Croats and Muslims, but this individual of Croatian

    24 nationality, ethnicity, supplied me with those

    25 documents.

  11. 1 JUDGE JORDA: I think that at that proper

    2 time, that is, in your closing arguments, you can

    3 contest the document if you consider it appropriate.

    4 For the time being, do you have any other

    5 questions, Mr. Harmon?

    6 MR. HARMON: No. Thank you very much. Thank

    7 you very much, Mr. Nobilo.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, did you want to

    9 move to the next document now?

    10 MR. NOBILO: Yes, it is document D529, and it

    11 is, once again, from the section for restoration,

    12 building, and urban planning of the municipal council

    13 of Novi Travnik, also from the federation of

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the district of Central Bosnia.

    15 So I received that document at the same time

    16 on the 21st of May, 1997, and the subject is

    17 information about the devastated buildings in the

    18 municipality of Novi Travnik, and the document states

    19 that following Article 172 of the Law on General

    20 Authority Procedure, this body keeps an official record

    21 about the Croats that were expelled from this area by

    22 the MOS during the combats between the Croats and the

    23 Muslims, and it states furthermore that the Croats were

    24 exiled from 26 inhabited villages of the municipality

    25 of Novi Travnik, and then it goes on to list the 26

  12. 1 villages of the municipality of Novi Travnik.

    2 The first column gives the number of houses

    3 and in the second column, the number of inhabitants

    4 expelled from each of the villages. You can see that

    5 the total from the municipality of Novi Travnik, the

    6 number of people expelled by the army of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was 4.436 (sic) Croats, and of the

    8 958 houses, 85 per cent were completely destroyed and

    9 devastated and have not been capacitated for living.

    10 There seems to be an error in the

    11 transcript. The figure for the expelled individuals

    12 was 4.360 Croats, and of the 958 Croat houses in those

    13 villages, 85 per cent were completely destroyed, and it

    14 is impossible to live in them.

    15 The representative of the section for

    16 restoration, building, and urban planning, Josip

    17 Udovicic sent the document, and it seems that he used

    18 the new stamp of the federation and the district of

    19 Central Bosnia.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: If there are no other comments,

    21 it's the same author, same source, as the previous

    22 one. I suppose you have no comments.

    23 Mr. Nobilo, you can then move on to the next

    24 document. The one in Serbo-Croat, is that the one

    25 you're talking about now?

  13. 1 MR. NOBILO: Yes. We do have a translation,

    2 that is to say, the headings of the columns have been

    3 translated.

    4 Mr. President, the first document has a

    5 letter attached to it from the Central Bosnia region,

    6 and it is from the same section for renovation and

    7 development dated the 20th of May, 1997. The head of

    8 the department for renovation and development says that

    9 he is sending a list of all the destroyed and damaged

    10 houses owned by Croat families, and these were

    11 destroyed during the Muslim aggression on Vitez.

    12 In that list, the list does not include the

    13 houses that are owned by Croat families under the

    14 control of Muslims, and there are 10 to 15 per cent of

    15 this type of house of the number written down.

    16 Then we come to the table itself and the

    17 individual columns, and their headings have been

    18 translated. The document is entitled "Damage on

    19 Building Objects." The first column is the ordinal

    20 number and the form number. Then we have the owner of

    21 the facility, whether it was a firm or an individual

    22 owner. Then we have the local community. It is the

    23 municipality of Vitez, in fact. Then we have the local

    24 communities of one or more villages. Then we have the

    25 degree of destruction, and these ranged from 1 to 6,

  14. 1 and the damage expressed in thousands of

    2 Deutschmarks. In the final column, we must add in the

    3 amount in Deutschemarks and the damage done for the

    4 properties of each individual family, and this has been

    5 furnished for us by computer by the Vitez

    6 municipality.

    7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Judge

    8 Shahabuddeen, I don't intend to interrupt, but for

    9 purposes of this particular exhibit and to give us a

    10 little more insight, I would make an inquiry of counsel

    11 in respect of the second to last column which says

    12 "Degree of Destruction." They are assigned numbers 1

    13 through 6, and I don't know what the values or

    14 percentage of destruction means in respect of 1 through

    15 6, whether the 1 represents the maximum amount or

    16 minimum amount of damage, and perhaps Mr. Nobilo could

    17 assist us.

    18 MR. NOBILO: I'm not really an expert in this

    19 matter, but I seem to feel that the first category is

    20 the maximum destruction, although I'm not absolutely

    21 sure.

    22 Just one moment, please.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: I'm not sure, but it seems that

    24 in front of 6, it seems that you have higher numbers

    25 after columns 5 and 6.

  15. 1 MR. NOBILO: Yes. It seems to be vice

    2 versa. I would suggest that we look at the damages

    3 done according to the Deutschemark column which will

    4 tell us the order of magnitude of the destruction done,

    5 because whether it is 1 or 6, I don't know exactly, but

    6 we do have the exact figure in German marks which will

    7 illustrate the degree of damage done.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: I had another question.

    9 Perhaps you can answer it, even if not today.

    10 Sometimes it's the same name. For example, around the

    11 beginning of the last third, I see there's a Kovac

    12 Stipo Niko, it's 259 and 263, Kovac Stipo Niko.

    13 Category 3, there was, let's say, average damage on the

    14 scale, 4.600 -- and he has 4.300. Above it, it says

    15 that 248 is Knezevic Anto Jozo of Bukovica, he's got

    16 enormous damage because he's in category 6, and then

    17 you see under that the same name.

    18 Were these property owners with several

    19 houses or with farms or something like that? Only you

    20 can tell us that. But I think that the Defence has to

    21 bring in this information.

    22 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I can only assume

    23 that this person has several houses. Perhaps he has

    24 his main house, and then he has his sheds and barns,

    25 and then he has a smaller house, but I can find out and

  16. 1 I can give you the exact information, because this was

    2 done according to houses, buildings. So if somebody

    3 has three houses, then he is mentioned three times, but

    4 I better check this out, and then I will let you know.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: You know, you have to be very

    6 careful, Mr. Nobilo, because when you're talking about

    7 reparations, I can tell you this, because I know about

    8 this from France, after catastrophes, whether they are

    9 earthquakes or wars or hurricanes, this manner for the

    10 administration to count the damage, there are people

    11 who try to add numbers in. So there are a lot of

    12 names, a lot of numbers here. So I'm just pointing

    13 this out and asking that you give us some

    14 clarification. I suppose it's because they have

    15 several houses.

    16 Have you finished with this document? Are

    17 there any other comments from the Prosecution?

    18 MR. HARMON: The only other comment I have,

    19 Mr. President, Judge Shahabuddeen, is the notation in

    20 the upper right-hand corner of the computer printout

    21 which first indicates the damages in Kuna which is the

    22 Croatian currency, and then struck through it is a line

    23 that says "DM." My question is, is this the work of

    24 the author of this document whose name is --

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Where are you seeing that?

  17. 1 What are you talking about here?

    2 MR. HARMON: I'm referring to the Kuna.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I see.

    4 MR. NOBILO: I can explain. That's the

    5 document I received, that is to say, that it was

    6 originally expressed in Deutschmarks, and the Kunas

    7 were crossed out. I simply imagine that there was a

    8 mistake in the computer, and when they saw it printed

    9 out, then the author, who sent me the letter and the

    10 document, crossed out "Kunas" and put in "DM" because

    11 that is the way I received the document because I think

    12 that "Kuna" is crossed out, and this is hand-written,

    13 "DM," which is German marks.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps, Mr. Nobilo, you could

    15 give more specific indications about that point

    16 because, if you don't mind my saying so, this is a

    17 very, very rigorous table with very, very specific

    18 figures, and suddenly you've got an official who

    19 crosses something out and says, "Oh, no, it's in

    20 Deutschemarks." It's not being clarified today, not

    21 today.

    22 But I want to repeat what has already been

    23 said, that is, speaking for myself and for Judge

    24 Shahabuddeen, I think this has to be clarified. We

    25 don't have any powers to give out reparations, not any

  18. 1 direct powers, and, therefore, this is an important

    2 thing to point out.

    3 Do you have any other comments, Mr. Harmon?

    4 MR. HARMON: Only one last comment and that

    5 is, does this document purport to represent exclusively

    6 damage to Croat houses because in going through this,

    7 very briefly, I see a number of Muslim names. I point

    8 out, for example, number 200 and 201. I haven't had

    9 time to go through this document in toto. So my

    10 question is, are these exclusively Croat houses or is

    11 this supposed to represent and does this include, in

    12 fact, some Muslims?

    13 MR. NOBILO: According to the letter that is

    14 attached to this computer list, it would appear that

    15 these were houses owned by Croat families.

    16 MR. HARMON: For my colleague's assistance,

    17 Mr. President, I point out the name "Hrustic." I can

    18 point out --

    19 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Prosecutor, it's not the

    20 last name that is important. People used to have the

    21 same last names earlier on. The first names are the

    22 ones that really distinguish between the Croats and the

    23 Muslims. So it is the first name that is either

    24 Catholic or Muslim, not the last names.

    25 MR. HARMON: Well, let me just point out, and

  19. 1 the names that I pointed out to my colleague include

    2 the first name of "Mensud" which, in my impression, is

    3 a Muslim name and --

    4 JUDGE JORDA: What number is that?

    5 MR. HARMON: It's 201, and the category of

    6 damage being 1.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: I don't see that page. Page

    8 1?

    9 MR. HARMON: Let me try to orient Your Honour

    10 with the pages.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: I have a page that begins with

    12 "221, Petar Ivisic." That's where my document begins.

    13 MR. HARMON: I'm trying to find a way to

    14 identify this page. Let me just count the pages,

    15 Mr. President, for the moment, and assuming we're in

    16 the same order ...

    17 MR. NOBILO: The pages are marked in the

    18 right-hand corner above.

    19 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. In that

    20 case, it is -- well, let me see. It's not so clear to

    21 me.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: That's page 5. It says

    23 "Strana: 4/20/1997."

    24 MR. NOBILO: Yes. That is page 4, obviously.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: That's 201 and 294; is that

  20. 1 right? "Hrustic"?

    2 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, the numbers I draw

    3 the Court's attention and counsel's attention to are

    4 numbers 201, 202, and 203, "Naser Hrustic, Muharem

    5 Hrustic, Mensud Hrustic." Those appear, to me, to be

    6 Muslim names and not --

    7 MR. NOBILO: Right. These are Muslim names,

    8 but it is also true that in brackets you have Croatian

    9 names too, "Veljko Pavlovic, Anto Miskovic," and by

    10 "Nasir Hrustic," there is "Ana Totic." In brackets,

    11 you have Croatian names only. What does that mean?

    12 Whether the house was bought, ownership transferred in

    13 one way or the other, that, I do not know, but next to

    14 every one of the Muslim names is a Croat name too.

    15 But I can address this question to the

    16 municipality of Vitez, as all other questions, so we

    17 better get their answer, rather than engage in

    18 guesswork. So we'll proceed from there.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: I think that would be very

    20 helpful for the clarity of our discussions. Are there

    21 any other comments? Do you want to move to 531 now,

    22 Mr. Nobilo?

    23 MR. NOBILO: There is no 531. These are the

    24 only three documents that we introduced today. But we

    25 do have some videotapes.

  21. 1 Mr. President, our next exhibit would be a

    2 videotape. As regards this videotape, you will see

    3 that it consists of several parts. I got the first

    4 part from the representatives of the Catholic church

    5 from Kakanj, and you will be able to see which

    6 clergymen filmed this. And then comes video footage

    7 from TV Kiseljak speaking of burnt and devastated

    8 buildings in Kakanj, Vares and Fojnica, and they also

    9 show looting both by Muslim civilians of a Croat

    10 village, as well of the military. The video is

    11 self-explanatory. There is a title and a date. Here

    12 there, there is a sentence or two. The Defence insists

    13 on these, and we would truly be pleased if the

    14 interpreters could have this interpreted for us,

    15 because that would clarify the picture.

    16 It is the municipalities of Kakanj, Vares and

    17 Fojnica, together with Kiseljak they made up operative

    18 group 2 that was commanded by Ivica Rajic, but formally

    19 it was under the command of Tihomir Blaskic, that is

    20 to say Central Bosnia Operative Zone, Central Bosnia,

    21 but during one period of time they were certainly under

    22 the command of Tihomir Blaskic. So if you agree, could

    23 we have the lights dimmed and could we see the

    24 videotape, please.

    25 You will see the title. First it is the

  22. 1 municipality of Kakanj. This is Kakanj. Could we

    2 please rewind the tape so we can see the text again,

    3 please. I'll read it out. It says: "Kakanj. This

    4 video cassette was recorded by Fra Pejo Orsolic, priest

    5 in the parish of Kraljeva Sutjeska after the ethnic

    6 expulsion of Croats from the area of the municipality

    7 of Kakanj." Please proceed.

    8 (Videotape played)

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Can the interpreters interpret

    10 that? I know it's difficult. Would they be able to?

    11 MR. NOBILO: In the right-hand corner you can

    12 see the date, the 5th of July, 1993. The person who

    13 made this recording, and he is not a professional, he

    14 is just saying who the owners of these houses are.

    15 That's all.

    16 (Videotape played)

    17 THE INTERPRETER: For the consequences of

    18 Muslim vandalism. The Muslim women who did this

    19 managed to escape before I managed to film her on

    20 camera.

    21 This is an approximate interpretation, says

    22 the interpreter.

    23 These are the few things that remained after

    24 the looting.

    25 This is the village of Rutici out there. You

  23. 1 can see the burnt houses without any roofs. Another

    2 house burnt down.

    3 This is another part of the village of

    4 Okcici, similar pictures.

    5 We didn't find any Croat inhabitants of the

    6 village of Bakici.

    7 This is a burnt house of Fran Stjepan's

    8 sister.

    9 We are passing through. This old blind woman

    10 is one of the few inhabitants left. "What's wrong?

    11 Don't cry."

    12 This is what is left after those who say that

    13 they are humane left. Look at this. This is in a

    14 church in -- this is what the MOS threw out when they

    15 were here. The famous BiH television is not going to

    16 say a word about any of this. This is the level of

    17 culture of this humane army. This is excrement in a

    18 Catholic church. This is a humane army?

    19 This is the upper part of the village of

    20 Delevici. None of the inhabitants are left here

    21 either.

    22 "You've seen a lot, haven't you?" "Yes."

    23 Twenty days after the fighting subsided,

    24 Croat houses are still burning. Where should people

    25 come back? Where to?

  24. 1 Our humane Muslim brothers, civilians, are

    2 looting the remains of the remains, and the UNPROFOR

    3 people are standing there in amazement, together with

    4 us, and looking at all of this. However, the Muslim

    5 who is doing the looting could not be perturbed.

    6 Now a few clips from Alanici. This is the

    7 house of Andrija Tunic. Animals were brought upstairs

    8 to these rooms and they were even slaughtered up here

    9 because there are traces of blood. Look at this.

    10 These are bloody pillows. They didn't even take that

    11 out. The room is full of excrement too. Dung, traces

    12 of blood on the wall. The lighting isn't very good, so

    13 you can't see it very well. You can see traces of

    14 blood quite well here, though.

    15 "Whose house is this?" "Marko, Ilija and

    16 Marijan. This is the house of Marko Milos."

    17 This is Sime Dujmovic's house.

    18 This is a village burning.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I am not sure

    20 whether we -- we plan to take a break. Would it

    21 disturb you if we were to interrupt things now and then

    22 we could resume after the pause? Because we have a

    23 programme for another meeting that we are going to have

    24 for about 20 minutes. And we could then resume. I

    25 thought perhaps we could wait until the end of the

  25. 1 video, but it wouldn't be proper for us not to watch it

    2 with the full attention that it should be given.

    3 Therefore, if you agree, we are going to

    4 break for about 20 minutes. Thank you very much.

    5 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

    6 --- On resuming at 11.48 a.m.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Have the accused brought in,

    8 please.

    9 (The accused entered court)

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, we can continue

    11 viewing the video for the 15th of July, 1993. I think

    12 that's right, isn't it?

    13 (Videotape played)

    14 THE INTERPRETER: This is a church.

    15 Everything has been damaged. This was brought today.

    16 This is St. Mark. "Pray for us," it says on the

    17 painting. This is a book from the chapel in

    18 Paulovici.

    19 This was filmed in the village of Tesevo, and

    20 this is what remains of the village. It was a very

    21 beautiful village once. This was filmed in 1994, in

    22 March. This is one of the newer houses, and this is

    23 what's left of it.

    24 This is a very unusual thing.

    25 This village is deserted. This is the farm

  26. 1 in Vlahovici.

    2 The village of Govedovici, it is now called

    3 Hanovici.

    4 The houses in the background are the village

    5 of Kovaci. They have also been seriously damaged.

    6 Who's village is that? That's a Muslim

    7 village.

    8 It looks as if someone set fire to that house

    9 down there.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if both sides

    11 agree, we could speed up the tape because we're looking

    12 at houses, and so we'll finish quicker if we speed up

    13 the tape.

    14 MR. HARMON: We agree with the suggestion.

    15 Thank you.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We agree.

    17 MR. HAYMAN: We didn't have editorial control

    18 over the filmmaker, Mr. President, and we would not

    19 have filmed such lengthy clips if we had had control.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: The Judges have not asked for

    21 anything special, and we can watch any evidence

    22 presented by either of the parties, but since there is

    23 an agreement between the parties, you're the one,

    24 Mr. Nobilo, to decide whether or not you want to

    25 interrupt the film.

  27. 1 I was only permitting myself, so that there

    2 be no ambiguity, to ask Mr. Dubuisson to tell us about

    3 how many more days of work you have so that we can

    4 organise our work properly.

    5 MR. NOBILO: We could speed up the tape, and

    6 when we come to a particular section where you can see

    7 that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is looting a

    8 Croatian village, we could stop there for awhile and

    9 have the normal speed, whereas, we could go through the

    10 rest of the tape at a higher speed.

    11 (Videotape played)

    12 MR. NOBILO: "The expelled Croats from the

    13 municipality of Vares in Kakanj." That is the text you

    14 have on the screen.

    15 It says, "The village of Bistrik and

    16 Crkvenjak." That's the text on your screens.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Who took these pictures,

    18 Mr. Nobilo? Could you tell us? Is it from a state

    19 television programme? Is it a private television

    20 station? Can we know?

    21 MR. NOBILO: The film was taken by the priest

    22 that we saw at the beginning, and his name was written

    23 up at the beginning of the tape. Later on, it was

    24 mounted by the local television station at Kiseljak,

    25 but originally, it was the tape taken by the priest.

  28. 1 Here it states precisely that "This is a new

    2 film from Vares. This is Kiseljak Television."

    3 May we slow down the tape now? This is the

    4 village of Pogar. Shall we stop the tape here? We can

    5 carry on at normal speed.

    6 (Videotape played)

    7 MR. NOBILO: This portion was now filmed by

    8 the local television station of Kiseljak. You have the

    9 date, the 4th of November, 1993, and the village of

    10 Pogar. The village of Pogar is in the municipality of

    11 Vares.

    12 These are the units of the BH army. You'll

    13 be able to clearly see the insignia at some point, and

    14 this is the point at which they are taking away things

    15 from the village.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps we do not have to have

    17 the second break but just work until 1.30 without a

    18 break, unless there's an objection on the part of the

    19 interpreters.

    20 No objection? All right. Thank you very

    21 much. I'm not saying that their work is easier, but

    22 perhaps we could gain some time. Okay. We can

    23 continue then without a break until 1.30.

    24 Is there no sound for this?

    25 MR. NOBILO: Probably because we decided to

  29. 1 speed it up, but more or less, there's nothing to

    2 hear. The video is self-explanatory, so there really

    3 isn't a soundtrack, I don't think.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: If the interpreters can hear

    5 something, I don't quite agree with Mr. Nobilo, the

    6 soundtrack is important. Thank you. I thank the

    7 interpreters for their explanations.

    8 MR. NOBILO: It is very hard to discern the

    9 sound because you can only hear background noise rather

    10 than words.

    11 THE INTERPRETER: The units should be lined

    12 up. They should take off their arm bands and hand them

    13 over to the commander.

    14 Who sent this? I'd kill someone for this. I

    15 found it under the bed.

    16 Edited by Television Kiseljak. Fojnica,

    17 village of Bakovici, village of burned down houses by

    18 the BH army, the 7th Muslim Brigade, the 110th Mountain

    19 Brigade, the Special Unit Dzo, the municipality burned

    20 down of Fojnica, devastated and burnt down houses. Our

    21 colleague, Marinko, was one of the first to get into

    22 the burned out village. The Muslims left the whole

    23 place mined.

    24 MR. NOBILO: Selo Bakovici.

    25 THE INTERPRETER: This is the village of

  30. 1 Bakovici, the house of Nikola Bosnjak. Burned down and

    2 devastated Croatian houses. They were looted too.

    3 Tiles were broken down. Everything was stolen,

    4 electricity equipment, everything. We never found

    5 anything in these houses, not even clothes or footwear,

    6 nothing.

    7 The Catholic cemetery above the village,

    8 while the fighting was going on in the town of Fojnica,

    9 our soldiers were buried there. This is yet another

    10 reason for us to have Bakovici remain Croatian once and

    11 for all. Our team, nevertheless, managed to film as

    12 much as possible. These are war crimes. This was

    13 guided by feelings of hatred for everything Croatian.

    14 They forget that our wish to return home is much

    15 stronger than anything they can feel. We want to build

    16 an even better Bakovici.

    17 You can also see graffiti by the

    18 semi-literate members of the Dzamahirija. They tried

    19 to turn Bakovici into a Dzamahirija. Units from Foca

    20 and Visegrad were there too. Dzo is probably the most

    21 popular amongst all of them belonging to the special

    22 units. We are going back towards Luzina from the

    23 village of Bakovici.

    24 The wild MOS units did terrible things here

    25 too. They burned down. They looted. This makes us

  31. 1 very sad, but we have to show that we are not a

    2 genocidal people, as they want to depict us. Although

    3 they destroyed our homes, the mosque in Luzina still

    4 remains intact.

    5 There is only one single house that remained

    6 intact, the one that belongs to the mentally retarded

    7 Ivica Gatic, and let it be, because this is part of our

    8 cultural, architectural heritage, and any state would

    9 protect it.

    10 This used to be the house of the late Pero

    11 Glavocevic. Thirty years ago, a girl lived there

    12 happily as her father and mother were building a house

    13 in Sarajevsko Polje. Her grandmother told her nothing

    14 remained, and there are only two little teapots there,

    15 nothing else, but they still go by the Catholic

    16 principle of forgiveness, and the only thing that we

    17 can do is ask why. No waterworks, no nothing, but the

    18 story about the cross is a bit different.

    19 There was a wooden cross in the middle of

    20 Tjesilo, a memorial, and it was a memento of times

    21 past. The wooden cross, they tried to burn it down,

    22 but they didn't manage to. Marijan found it. And

    23 whenever they come and whenever they come and do

    24 something, they do not respect anything that belongs to

    25 other people, notably Croatian things, and then Marijan

  32. 1 finds the cross. And God gave this beautiful village,

    2 and that beauty is still there, in spite of all the

    3 devastation.

    4 As we sit in front of Marijan's house, and he

    5 is filling it with heavenly water, and the snowy

    6 mountain tops are there, and it is quite clear that

    7 life will prevail here, in spite of everything.

    8 I always wanted to come back to my own home, and I

    9 would bring water from Bakovici. What can I do? Other

    10 people like being in other people's houses and perhaps

    11 they have reasons for doing so or they can't afford it

    12 or whatever, but people cannot live off their pensions

    13 or whatever. So these are problems. But even if you

    14 invest a little, people can come back. And if they

    15 don't want to come back, let it be.

    16 Before Marijan, Ilija and Mato Mijatovic,

    17 brothers, were the first to return. They were

    18 persistent, even obstinate, and they managed to rebuild

    19 their houses, to bring the livestock back, and here

    20 they are living on their own land. Someone is going to

    21 say it was easy for them. They were better off when

    22 they were refugees than we were.

    23 Then there is the story of other people who

    24 were in Kiseljak and who tried to do their best in

    25 order to keep the land and the orchards going. Things

  33. 1 will be better, and his son works in Austria and they

    2 are going to do whatever they can. Well, we are going

    3 to do whatever is possible.

    4 Fifteen days ago I decided what to do and

    5 then see what this looks like now. Can you see my

    6 garden? And me and this little girl of mine, see what

    7 we've done. That's the only thing I can tell you.

    8 That's it. I haven't got much time to talk.

    9 Marijan is impatient by nature, and it's not

    10 easy for him to take things that are illogical. He

    11 wonders why SFOR or somebody else does not have the

    12 same yardsticks for reconstructing Croatian villages,

    13 as well as those of others. However, life will go on

    14 at Piescevo either with the help of the

    15 International Community or not. You should go there

    16 and you should see the scenic beauty there that is God

    17 given.

    18 Production television Kiseljak, 13th of May,

    19 1998.

    20 MR. NOBILO: I think that that would be all,

    21 Mr. President.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Is that the end of a part of

    23 your documentary evidence for today?

    24 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we shall be

    25 presenting some other documents, but we have finished

  34. 1 for today. However, we would like to hear the position

    2 of the Court on a certain problem. We showed

    3 videotapes today as we received them on the ground in

    4 Bosnia, and the Defence did not edit them in any way.

    5 We learned from the comments and objections made by the

    6 Prosecution when we give only partial evidence,

    7 therefore, we felt it was incumbent upon us to show the

    8 tapes in their entirety. However, we are going to

    9 waste too much time if we do so. We think that in the

    10 future we show only relevant parts of these videotapes,

    11 a minute or two or three.

    12 Can we have that kind of a ruling by the

    13 Trial Chamber so that we don't have to show the video

    14 footage in its entirety, because this was not really

    15 recorded by professionals. It was done by people who

    16 are not very knowledgeable about editing or anything,

    17 and their films are not exactly dynamic. Because the

    18 Defence has a very large number of videotapes and we

    19 would be glad to make the Court aware of all the

    20 relevant parts, but if we were to show everything, we

    21 would require several months.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Several months. That would be

    23 not a very good thing for your cause. I know that

    24 Mr. Dubuisson is keeping track of the time. How much

    25 time is left?

  35. 1 THE REGISTRAR: There are about 22 days left

    2 for the Defence to complete its case.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: It shall include the testimony

    4 of the accused. Of course that issue was always

    5 problematic, that is, what's considered to be relevant,

    6 what isn't. In my country things are done a little

    7 differently in courts, but we have to adopt ourselves

    8 to the procedural Rules that are in effect here.

    9 Let me turn to the Prosecution and ask what

    10 they think. Mr. Harmon, you see what the problem is.

    11 There is a video cassette, you take out a part, they

    12 say it is relevant. Perhaps if you were to know the

    13 source and had the cassette, perhaps you might in your

    14 final argument show, for instance, that, yes, this part

    15 was relevant for the Defence but we have objections.

    16 But I don't know. Perhaps we can find a solution

    17 together.

    18 MR. HARMON: How Mr. Nobilo and Mr. Hayman

    19 run their case is their business, Mr. President. We

    20 are certainly not interested in watching hours and

    21 hours of tapes with various scenes that are in 1998,

    22 1997, in 1996. We would certainly, in co-operation

    23 with the Defence, if they have relevant portions of

    24 tapes they want to show, they can show those tapes, and

    25 if they would make the rest of the tapes available to

  36. 1 us, we could see if there are other portions of those

    2 particular tapes that are of interest to us and

    3 possibly to the Chamber.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: I wonder whether the solution

    5 wouldn't be to have the Defence present the relevant

    6 parts, but to identify the cassette, to state what its

    7 source is, and perhaps make -- actually, to make it

    8 available to the Prosecutor who can look at it if he

    9 wants to.

    10 This is a problem that we have with written

    11 documents. You saw that the other day. You showed

    12 some of the parts of a decree which you considered to

    13 be relevant, and the Prosecution asked that the entire

    14 decree be provided. I will turn to my colleague and

    15 friend Judge Shahabuddeen to have his opinion on the

    16 question. Just a moment, please. Judge Shahabuddeen.

    17 Judge Shahabuddeen would agree with what I

    18 suggest. That is, the Defence would organise its case

    19 as it likes, show the first images of the cassette to

    20 show who filmed it, how it was filmed, when it was

    21 filmed, and, possibly, Mr. Nobilo, make some comments.

    22 Then we could show the relevant parts, but the entire

    23 cassette would be made available to the Prosecution.

    24 And by the final arguments the Prosecution might be

    25 able to say, during those arguments, "I would like to

  37. 1 point out that Mr. Nobilo showed this or that picture

    2 of a destroyed monastery but did not say that in this

    3 cassette," et cetera.

    4 Is that a solution that would be satisfactory

    5 to everybody?

    6 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President, that would

    7 be a satisfactory solution, if we get the complete

    8 cassette, if we so desire. We have done that in the

    9 past with the Defence, and we will certainly request

    10 that the same procedure be followed.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: I would first like to thank

    12 Judge Shahabuddeen and then thank both of the parties

    13 for co-operation. Perhaps we should move into private

    14 session just so that we can deal with the organisation

    15 of our work before we leave perhaps a few minutes

    16 earlier today.

    17 Are we in private session? Yes, we are.

    18 (Private session)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  38. 1












    13 Page 17591 redacted – in private session



















  39. 1 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at

    1:15 p.m. sine die.