1 Friday, 22 January, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.49
4 (The accused entered court)
5 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Good morning to all
6 the interpreters, to the court reporters, to Defence
7 and Prosecution counsel. Good morning to the accused.
8 I want to thank on behalf of Judge Shahabuddeen for the
9 information that you gave to us, and the letter will be
10 given to President McDonald.
11 The registrar mentioned there were some
12 problems here. Mr. Hayman or Mr. Nobilo, will you tell
13 me what the problems are. Apparently, our schedule is
14 going to be somewhat perturbed this morning. Is that
15 true, Mr. Hayman?
16 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, Mr. President. Your
17 Honours may have noted the fog this morning. It caused
18 some difficulties, among other things, with getting
19 witnesses here last night. In fact, there were
20 witnesses that didn't get here last night that hoped to
21 get here. But this situation developed late in the
22 evening, and so what we would like to do is we do have
23 some other business with respect to the Defence case,
24 documents and tapes. I am not sure that we will use
25 all of the time today, but I think we have a couple
1 hours of material that can productively be presented.
2 If there is material that doesn't need to be viewed,
3 but can simply be tendered, we certainly invite the
4 Court's comments in that regard.
5 Mr. Nobilo will be making this presentation.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Hayman, for
7 those clarifications. Yes, there is a lot of fog.
8 These are things that happen and sometimes it also
9 happened to the Prosecution witnesses.
10 Mr. Prosecutor, I suppose there are no
11 objections on your part. Should the Defence produce
12 its evidence under a different form?
13 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I can't comment
14 on how the Defence shall use its allotted time. We can
15 proceed in any way that the Court and counsel wish.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Shahabuddeen. Judge
17 Shahabuddeen agrees. I agree with him. We can proceed
18 that way, that is to try to use the time profitably.
19 If we don't use the entire morning, I can assure
20 Mr. Nobilo and Mr. Hayman that we have enough work to
21 do in our own offices, but the idea is to try not to
22 waste too much time.
23 Mr. Nobilo, are you going to produce
24 evidence? Would you like there to be a discussion
25 about this or do you want to present the materials the
1 way Mr. Harmon did? Exhibit 468. That reminds me.
2 What's 467? I believe you had presented it and there
3 was no Defence comment. Is that right? I am trying to
4 set the rules of the game today so that there be no
5 discussions afterwards.
6 Mr. Harmon, you have already done that. You
7 are a specialist in that business, that is producing
8 additional evidence.
9 MR. HARMON: Yes, I am, and thank you very
10 much for that recognition, Judge Shahabuddeen. It's
11 456 and 406 are the two exhibits, and I see that
12 Mr. Nobilo has a large pile of documents that we will
13 proceed any way the Court feels is appropriate.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, you can begin with
15 your pile of documents. All right. The floor is
17 MR. NOBILO: Well, as you've seen, the
18 Defence is quick to learn from the Prosecution, but it
19 does not have as many documents as before. I would
20 like these documents to be handed up now, please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The first is 528, the one
22 that deals with Travnik. The one that deals with Novi
23 Travnik, the 21st of May, is D529. And the third, 530,
24 for the document dated in Vitez the 20 May, 1997.
25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Fourmy, if you could
1 approach the bench, please.
2 MR. NOBILO: The first document is D528 and
3 it is the municipality of Travnik, the government of
4 the municipality of Travnik, section for economy and
5 reparations, and they furnish the Defence with data
6 regarding war reparation, damage caused by the army of
7 BiH and the troops of the MOS in the municipality of
8 Travnik. From this document, and I am speaking of page
9 1, it appears that; in the municipality of Travnik in
10 1991 there was 70.402 inhabitants. Of that number,
11 26.118 were Croats by nationality.
12 From the municipality of Travnik, 19.300
13 inhabitants left, of which in the area of Nova Bila,
14 which is part of the Novi Travnik area under HVO
15 control, 2.300 refugees settled, and the other Croats
16 that left, that is to say 17.000 Croat refugees, were
17 settled in the neighbouring municipalities of Novi
18 Travnik, Vitez and Busovaca, and also in Herzegovina,
19 the Republic of Croatia, and foreign countries as
21 Of the 19.300 Croats, emanates from the
22 Balkans, 2.206 Croats were exiled by the Serbs and
23 17.094 were exiled from the municipality of Travnik by
24 the army of the BiH and the troops of the MOS. In the
25 text, furthermore, the facilities devastated are
1 enumerated, and I would like to draw attention to a
2 category of devastated objects, that is houses, Croat
3 houses, damaged between 60 and 80 per cent, and burnt
4 houses, and these owned by Croats.
5 There are 1.450 of these burnt down houses
6 that suffered damages, 1.450, whereas the other houses
7 also enumerated, we have the figures between -- for 20
8 per cent, 20 to 40 per cent, 40 to 60 per cent and 60
9 to 100 per cent, and can you see this all on page 1 of
10 that document.
11 Along with this document, the municipality of
12 Travnik sent the Defence examples of citizens sending
13 documents to the Travnik municipality, which was the
14 basis, formed the basis and groundwork of the
15 commission to establish the wartime reparations. They
16 are the individual cases of the individual households.
17 And after a series of individual descriptions of this
18 kind supplied by a number of citizens, we have a table,
19 and the table illustrates the fact that the BiH Army --
20 from the effects of the BiH Army, over 50 villages
21 suffered damages from that. The table shows the number
22 of inhabitants in each of the villages, the total
23 number of inhabitants, that is the first table, the
24 first column.
25 Then we come to the Croats. The first
1 column, which begins with the number 276, is the total
2 number of inhabitants in one given village.
3 The second column is the number of Croats in
4 each particular village.
5 The third column represents the total number
6 of houses damaged in each village.
7 Then we come to four final columns, which
8 show the damage done, up to 20 per cent, from 20 to 40
9 per cent, between 40 and 60 per cent, and 60 to 100 per
10 cent damage and destruction. So we see that perhaps
11 the most damaged houses were in Dzelilovac, 123 houses
12 were 100 per cent destroyed; followed by Grahovcici,
13 where 140 houses were completely destroyed; Polje
14 S.Gavrancic with 78 houses, 62 houses and so on. You
15 can read down the table.
16 The next table represents the nationality
17 composition or ethnic composition of the Travnik
18 municipality taken from the population census in 1991.
19 I am not going to comment on that because it is
20 self-explanatory. You can see the population structure
22 So that is document D528.
23 JUDGE JORDA: As regards the second chart, is
24 that the one that begins with the Bandol --
25 MR. NOBILO: Both tables begin with the place
1 called Bandol, but in the second table, the
2 first figure is 56.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, you are right.
4 MR. NOBILO: Whereas in Bandol, 276 and so
6 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Thank you. This is
7 a chart, then, showing the ethnic composition?
8 MR. NOBILO: The structure of the population
9 according to the ethnic affiliation.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry to interrupt you.
11 There is a problem with the French transcript. Perhaps
12 we should take a break so we can fix the problem.
13 JUDGE JORDA: A French transcript problem?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
15 JUDGE JORDA: And you want to take a 5-minute
17 THE REGISTRAR: If possible.
18 JUDGE JORDA: All right. The Judges will
19 withdraw. We'll suspend the hearing for a few
21 --- Recess taken at 10.09 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.18 a.m.
23 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We can resume now.
24 Please be seated.
25 Mr. Dubuisson, is the French transcript
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you very much,
3 Your Honour. The problem has been resolved.
4 JUDGE JORDA: You know, French is a fragile
5 language in this Tribunal. It can even be affected by
6 the fog. All right. We can continue now.
7 Mr. Nobilo, have you finished with 528 or do
8 you want to go back to it?
9 Mr. Harmon?
10 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President, Judge
11 Shahabuddeen, I would like to ask my colleague to
12 clarify something on this particular document, and it
13 is in respect of the source of this document because I
14 see on the original a stamp that says "The Croatian
15 Republic of Herceg-Bosna," and I see the on letterhead
16 of the letter to Mr. Nobilo, the Federation of BH, the
17 government of the municipality of Travnik, and just to
18 clarify the issue in the document, if Mr. Nobilo is
19 able to give us that, whether this is the Croatian
20 portion of the federation and whether this is from the
21 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna.
22 MR. NOBILO: Yes, I received this from the
23 department, section for economy of the municipality of
24 Travnik some time in May 1997. Why they don't use the
25 old stamp, I don't know, but the representative of the
1 government, Vlado Lovrinovic, sent this to me, and
2 that's all I know about it. In 1997, he was the
3 representative of the section for economy of the
4 municipality of Travnik. Whether he is that today, I
5 don't know.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Is this a document from an
7 authority that came out of the Dayton Agreements; is
8 that true?
9 MR. NOBILO: Yes. It was in the course of
10 1997 when the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina was
11 established, but changes go a little more slowly
12 there. Some of them have old stamps, other
13 institutions have the new stamp, but I do know where I
14 got if from.
15 MR. HARMON: The Croatian Republic of
16 Herceg-Bosna did not exist after the Dayton
18 JUDGE JORDA: All right. No, I understand
19 that. See, my document D528, in the English version,
20 says "Bosnia-Herzegovina," the federation of -- so it
21 says "la Federation," the federation, so it is the
22 Croat Muslim federation. I suppose that's what you're
23 talking about.
24 MR. NOBILO: Yes, that's exact, and the
25 municipality of Travnik from the Croatian and Muslim
2 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, all right.
3 MR. NOBILO: It is the section for economy
4 and reparations for wartime reparation and recording
6 MR. HARMON: My last point of clarification
7 for my colleague, is this the Croat side of the
8 federation that is the source of this document?
9 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I think that's what's
10 important. I suppose that in the municipality of
11 Travnik government, what was its ethnic composition in
12 the government, and this government or municipality of
13 Travnik is the one that set this up because it's got a
14 reparations section, I suppose, in order to make good
15 on damages that were caused during the war; is that
16 right, Mr. Nobilo?
17 MR. NOBILO: Yes, you're quite right, Your
18 Honour. It is a joint municipality, Croatian and
19 Muslim, but Vlado Lovrinovic, the individual himself,
20 according to his mandate between Muslims and Croats,
21 was appointed a Croat and head of the section for
22 economy and reparations, so the municipality has both
23 Croats and Muslims, but this individual of Croatian
24 nationality, ethnicity, supplied me with those
1 JUDGE JORDA: I think that at that proper
2 time, that is, in your closing arguments, you can
3 contest the document if you consider it appropriate.
4 For the time being, do you have any other
5 questions, Mr. Harmon?
6 MR. HARMON: No. Thank you very much. Thank
7 you very much, Mr. Nobilo.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, did you want to
9 move to the next document now?
10 MR. NOBILO: Yes, it is document D529, and it
11 is, once again, from the section for restoration,
12 building, and urban planning of the municipal council
13 of Novi Travnik, also from the federation of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the district of Central Bosnia.
15 So I received that document at the same time
16 on the 21st of May, 1997, and the subject is
17 information about the devastated buildings in the
18 municipality of Novi Travnik, and the document states
19 that following Article 172 of the Law on General
20 Authority Procedure, this body keeps an official record
21 about the Croats that were expelled from this area by
22 the MOS during the combats between the Croats and the
23 Muslims, and it states furthermore that the Croats were
24 exiled from 26 inhabited villages of the municipality
25 of Novi Travnik, and then it goes on to list the 26
1 villages of the municipality of Novi Travnik.
2 The first column gives the number of houses
3 and in the second column, the number of inhabitants
4 expelled from each of the villages. You can see that
5 the total from the municipality of Novi Travnik, the
6 number of people expelled by the army of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was 4.436 (sic) Croats, and of the
8 958 houses, 85 per cent were completely destroyed and
9 devastated and have not been capacitated for living.
10 There seems to be an error in the
11 transcript. The figure for the expelled individuals
12 was 4.360 Croats, and of the 958 Croat houses in those
13 villages, 85 per cent were completely destroyed, and it
14 is impossible to live in them.
15 The representative of the section for
16 restoration, building, and urban planning, Josip
17 Udovicic sent the document, and it seems that he used
18 the new stamp of the federation and the district of
19 Central Bosnia.
20 JUDGE JORDA: If there are no other comments,
21 it's the same author, same source, as the previous
22 one. I suppose you have no comments.
23 Mr. Nobilo, you can then move on to the next
24 document. The one in Serbo-Croat, is that the one
25 you're talking about now?
1 MR. NOBILO: Yes. We do have a translation,
2 that is to say, the headings of the columns have been
4 Mr. President, the first document has a
5 letter attached to it from the Central Bosnia region,
6 and it is from the same section for renovation and
7 development dated the 20th of May, 1997. The head of
8 the department for renovation and development says that
9 he is sending a list of all the destroyed and damaged
10 houses owned by Croat families, and these were
11 destroyed during the Muslim aggression on Vitez.
12 In that list, the list does not include the
13 houses that are owned by Croat families under the
14 control of Muslims, and there are 10 to 15 per cent of
15 this type of house of the number written down.
16 Then we come to the table itself and the
17 individual columns, and their headings have been
18 translated. The document is entitled "Damage on
19 Building Objects." The first column is the ordinal
20 number and the form number. Then we have the owner of
21 the facility, whether it was a firm or an individual
22 owner. Then we have the local community. It is the
23 municipality of Vitez, in fact. Then we have the local
24 communities of one or more villages. Then we have the
25 degree of destruction, and these ranged from 1 to 6,
1 and the damage expressed in thousands of
2 Deutschmarks. In the final column, we must add in the
3 amount in Deutschemarks and the damage done for the
4 properties of each individual family, and this has been
5 furnished for us by computer by the Vitez
7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Judge
8 Shahabuddeen, I don't intend to interrupt, but for
9 purposes of this particular exhibit and to give us a
10 little more insight, I would make an inquiry of counsel
11 in respect of the second to last column which says
12 "Degree of Destruction." They are assigned numbers 1
13 through 6, and I don't know what the values or
14 percentage of destruction means in respect of 1 through
15 6, whether the 1 represents the maximum amount or
16 minimum amount of damage, and perhaps Mr. Nobilo could
17 assist us.
18 MR. NOBILO: I'm not really an expert in this
19 matter, but I seem to feel that the first category is
20 the maximum destruction, although I'm not absolutely
22 Just one moment, please.
23 JUDGE JORDA: I'm not sure, but it seems that
24 in front of 6, it seems that you have higher numbers
25 after columns 5 and 6.
1 MR. NOBILO: Yes. It seems to be vice
2 versa. I would suggest that we look at the damages
3 done according to the Deutschemark column which will
4 tell us the order of magnitude of the destruction done,
5 because whether it is 1 or 6, I don't know exactly, but
6 we do have the exact figure in German marks which will
7 illustrate the degree of damage done.
8 JUDGE JORDA: I had another question.
9 Perhaps you can answer it, even if not today.
10 Sometimes it's the same name. For example, around the
11 beginning of the last third, I see there's a Kovac
12 Stipo Niko, it's 259 and 263, Kovac Stipo Niko.
13 Category 3, there was, let's say, average damage on the
14 scale, 4.600 -- and he has 4.300. Above it, it says
15 that 248 is Knezevic Anto Jozo of Bukovica, he's got
16 enormous damage because he's in category 6, and then
17 you see under that the same name.
18 Were these property owners with several
19 houses or with farms or something like that? Only you
20 can tell us that. But I think that the Defence has to
21 bring in this information.
22 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I can only assume
23 that this person has several houses. Perhaps he has
24 his main house, and then he has his sheds and barns,
25 and then he has a smaller house, but I can find out and
1 I can give you the exact information, because this was
2 done according to houses, buildings. So if somebody
3 has three houses, then he is mentioned three times, but
4 I better check this out, and then I will let you know.
5 JUDGE JORDA: You know, you have to be very
6 careful, Mr. Nobilo, because when you're talking about
7 reparations, I can tell you this, because I know about
8 this from France, after catastrophes, whether they are
9 earthquakes or wars or hurricanes, this manner for the
10 administration to count the damage, there are people
11 who try to add numbers in. So there are a lot of
12 names, a lot of numbers here. So I'm just pointing
13 this out and asking that you give us some
14 clarification. I suppose it's because they have
15 several houses.
16 Have you finished with this document? Are
17 there any other comments from the Prosecution?
18 MR. HARMON: The only other comment I have,
19 Mr. President, Judge Shahabuddeen, is the notation in
20 the upper right-hand corner of the computer printout
21 which first indicates the damages in Kuna which is the
22 Croatian currency, and then struck through it is a line
23 that says "DM." My question is, is this the work of
24 the author of this document whose name is --
25 JUDGE JORDA: Where are you seeing that?
1 What are you talking about here?
2 MR. HARMON: I'm referring to the Kuna.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I see.
4 MR. NOBILO: I can explain. That's the
5 document I received, that is to say, that it was
6 originally expressed in Deutschmarks, and the Kunas
7 were crossed out. I simply imagine that there was a
8 mistake in the computer, and when they saw it printed
9 out, then the author, who sent me the letter and the
10 document, crossed out "Kunas" and put in "DM" because
11 that is the way I received the document because I think
12 that "Kuna" is crossed out, and this is hand-written,
13 "DM," which is German marks.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps, Mr. Nobilo, you could
15 give more specific indications about that point
16 because, if you don't mind my saying so, this is a
17 very, very rigorous table with very, very specific
18 figures, and suddenly you've got an official who
19 crosses something out and says, "Oh, no, it's in
20 Deutschemarks." It's not being clarified today, not
22 But I want to repeat what has already been
23 said, that is, speaking for myself and for Judge
24 Shahabuddeen, I think this has to be clarified. We
25 don't have any powers to give out reparations, not any
1 direct powers, and, therefore, this is an important
2 thing to point out.
3 Do you have any other comments, Mr. Harmon?
4 MR. HARMON: Only one last comment and that
5 is, does this document purport to represent exclusively
6 damage to Croat houses because in going through this,
7 very briefly, I see a number of Muslim names. I point
8 out, for example, number 200 and 201. I haven't had
9 time to go through this document in toto. So my
10 question is, are these exclusively Croat houses or is
11 this supposed to represent and does this include, in
12 fact, some Muslims?
13 MR. NOBILO: According to the letter that is
14 attached to this computer list, it would appear that
15 these were houses owned by Croat families.
16 MR. HARMON: For my colleague's assistance,
17 Mr. President, I point out the name "Hrustic." I can
18 point out --
19 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Prosecutor, it's not the
20 last name that is important. People used to have the
21 same last names earlier on. The first names are the
22 ones that really distinguish between the Croats and the
23 Muslims. So it is the first name that is either
24 Catholic or Muslim, not the last names.
25 MR. HARMON: Well, let me just point out, and
1 the names that I pointed out to my colleague include
2 the first name of "Mensud" which, in my impression, is
3 a Muslim name and --
4 JUDGE JORDA: What number is that?
5 MR. HARMON: It's 201, and the category of
6 damage being 1.
7 JUDGE JORDA: I don't see that page. Page
9 MR. HARMON: Let me try to orient Your Honour
10 with the pages.
11 JUDGE JORDA: I have a page that begins with
12 "221, Petar Ivisic." That's where my document begins.
13 MR. HARMON: I'm trying to find a way to
14 identify this page. Let me just count the pages,
15 Mr. President, for the moment, and assuming we're in
16 the same order ...
17 MR. NOBILO: The pages are marked in the
18 right-hand corner above.
19 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. In that
20 case, it is -- well, let me see. It's not so clear to
22 JUDGE JORDA: That's page 5. It says
23 "Strana: 4/20/1997."
24 MR. NOBILO: Yes. That is page 4, obviously.
25 JUDGE JORDA: That's 201 and 294; is that
1 right? "Hrustic"?
2 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, the numbers I draw
3 the Court's attention and counsel's attention to are
4 numbers 201, 202, and 203, "Naser Hrustic, Muharem
5 Hrustic, Mensud Hrustic." Those appear, to me, to be
6 Muslim names and not --
7 MR. NOBILO: Right. These are Muslim names,
8 but it is also true that in brackets you have Croatian
9 names too, "Veljko Pavlovic, Anto Miskovic," and by
10 "Nasir Hrustic," there is "Ana Totic." In brackets,
11 you have Croatian names only. What does that mean?
12 Whether the house was bought, ownership transferred in
13 one way or the other, that, I do not know, but next to
14 every one of the Muslim names is a Croat name too.
15 But I can address this question to the
16 municipality of Vitez, as all other questions, so we
17 better get their answer, rather than engage in
18 guesswork. So we'll proceed from there.
19 JUDGE JORDA: I think that would be very
20 helpful for the clarity of our discussions. Are there
21 any other comments? Do you want to move to 531 now,
22 Mr. Nobilo?
23 MR. NOBILO: There is no 531. These are the
24 only three documents that we introduced today. But we
25 do have some videotapes.
1 Mr. President, our next exhibit would be a
2 videotape. As regards this videotape, you will see
3 that it consists of several parts. I got the first
4 part from the representatives of the Catholic church
5 from Kakanj, and you will be able to see which
6 clergymen filmed this. And then comes video footage
7 from TV Kiseljak speaking of burnt and devastated
8 buildings in Kakanj, Vares and Fojnica, and they also
9 show looting both by Muslim civilians of a Croat
10 village, as well of the military. The video is
11 self-explanatory. There is a title and a date. Here
12 there, there is a sentence or two. The Defence insists
13 on these, and we would truly be pleased if the
14 interpreters could have this interpreted for us,
15 because that would clarify the picture.
16 It is the municipalities of Kakanj, Vares and
17 Fojnica, together with Kiseljak they made up operative
18 group 2 that was commanded by Ivica Rajic, but formally
19 it was under the command of Tihomir Blaskic, that is
20 to say Central Bosnia Operative Zone, Central Bosnia,
21 but during one period of time they were certainly under
22 the command of Tihomir Blaskic. So if you agree, could
23 we have the lights dimmed and could we see the
24 videotape, please.
25 You will see the title. First it is the
1 municipality of Kakanj. This is Kakanj. Could we
2 please rewind the tape so we can see the text again,
3 please. I'll read it out. It says: "Kakanj. This
4 video cassette was recorded by Fra Pejo Orsolic, priest
5 in the parish of Kraljeva Sutjeska after the ethnic
6 expulsion of Croats from the area of the municipality
7 of Kakanj." Please proceed.
8 (Videotape played)
9 JUDGE JORDA: Can the interpreters interpret
10 that? I know it's difficult. Would they be able to?
11 MR. NOBILO: In the right-hand corner you can
12 see the date, the 5th of July, 1993. The person who
13 made this recording, and he is not a professional, he
14 is just saying who the owners of these houses are.
15 That's all.
16 (Videotape played)
17 THE INTERPRETER: For the consequences of
18 Muslim vandalism. The Muslim women who did this
19 managed to escape before I managed to film her on
21 This is an approximate interpretation, says
22 the interpreter.
23 These are the few things that remained after
24 the looting.
25 This is the village of Rutici out there. You
1 can see the burnt houses without any roofs. Another
2 house burnt down.
3 This is another part of the village of
4 Okcici, similar pictures.
5 We didn't find any Croat inhabitants of the
6 village of Bakici.
7 This is a burnt house of Fran Stjepan's
9 We are passing through. This old blind woman
10 is one of the few inhabitants left. "What's wrong?
11 Don't cry."
12 This is what is left after those who say that
13 they are humane left. Look at this. This is in a
14 church in -- this is what the MOS threw out when they
15 were here. The famous BiH television is not going to
16 say a word about any of this. This is the level of
17 culture of this humane army. This is excrement in a
18 Catholic church. This is a humane army?
19 This is the upper part of the village of
20 Delevici. None of the inhabitants are left here
22 "You've seen a lot, haven't you?" "Yes."
23 Twenty days after the fighting subsided,
24 Croat houses are still burning. Where should people
25 come back? Where to?
1 Our humane Muslim brothers, civilians, are
2 looting the remains of the remains, and the UNPROFOR
3 people are standing there in amazement, together with
4 us, and looking at all of this. However, the Muslim
5 who is doing the looting could not be perturbed.
6 Now a few clips from Alanici. This is the
7 house of Andrija Tunic. Animals were brought upstairs
8 to these rooms and they were even slaughtered up here
9 because there are traces of blood. Look at this.
10 These are bloody pillows. They didn't even take that
11 out. The room is full of excrement too. Dung, traces
12 of blood on the wall. The lighting isn't very good, so
13 you can't see it very well. You can see traces of
14 blood quite well here, though.
15 "Whose house is this?" "Marko, Ilija and
16 Marijan. This is the house of Marko Milos."
17 This is Sime Dujmovic's house.
18 This is a village burning.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I am not sure
20 whether we -- we plan to take a break. Would it
21 disturb you if we were to interrupt things now and then
22 we could resume after the pause? Because we have a
23 programme for another meeting that we are going to have
24 for about 20 minutes. And we could then resume. I
25 thought perhaps we could wait until the end of the
1 video, but it wouldn't be proper for us not to watch it
2 with the full attention that it should be given.
3 Therefore, if you agree, we are going to
4 break for about 20 minutes. Thank you very much.
5 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.48 a.m.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Have the accused brought in,
9 (The accused entered court)
10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, we can continue
11 viewing the video for the 15th of July, 1993. I think
12 that's right, isn't it?
13 (Videotape played)
14 THE INTERPRETER: This is a church.
15 Everything has been damaged. This was brought today.
16 This is St. Mark. "Pray for us," it says on the
17 painting. This is a book from the chapel in
19 This was filmed in the village of Tesevo, and
20 this is what remains of the village. It was a very
21 beautiful village once. This was filmed in 1994, in
22 March. This is one of the newer houses, and this is
23 what's left of it.
24 This is a very unusual thing.
25 This village is deserted. This is the farm
1 in Vlahovici.
2 The village of Govedovici, it is now called
4 The houses in the background are the village
5 of Kovaci. They have also been seriously damaged.
6 Who's village is that? That's a Muslim
8 It looks as if someone set fire to that house
9 down there.
10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if both sides
11 agree, we could speed up the tape because we're looking
12 at houses, and so we'll finish quicker if we speed up
13 the tape.
14 MR. HARMON: We agree with the suggestion.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We agree.
17 MR. HAYMAN: We didn't have editorial control
18 over the filmmaker, Mr. President, and we would not
19 have filmed such lengthy clips if we had had control.
20 JUDGE JORDA: The Judges have not asked for
21 anything special, and we can watch any evidence
22 presented by either of the parties, but since there is
23 an agreement between the parties, you're the one,
24 Mr. Nobilo, to decide whether or not you want to
25 interrupt the film.
1 I was only permitting myself, so that there
2 be no ambiguity, to ask Mr. Dubuisson to tell us about
3 how many more days of work you have so that we can
4 organise our work properly.
5 MR. NOBILO: We could speed up the tape, and
6 when we come to a particular section where you can see
7 that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is looting a
8 Croatian village, we could stop there for awhile and
9 have the normal speed, whereas, we could go through the
10 rest of the tape at a higher speed.
11 (Videotape played)
12 MR. NOBILO: "The expelled Croats from the
13 municipality of Vares in Kakanj." That is the text you
14 have on the screen.
15 It says, "The village of Bistrik and
16 Crkvenjak." That's the text on your screens.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Who took these pictures,
18 Mr. Nobilo? Could you tell us? Is it from a state
19 television programme? Is it a private television
20 station? Can we know?
21 MR. NOBILO: The film was taken by the priest
22 that we saw at the beginning, and his name was written
23 up at the beginning of the tape. Later on, it was
24 mounted by the local television station at Kiseljak,
25 but originally, it was the tape taken by the priest.
1 Here it states precisely that "This is a new
2 film from Vares. This is Kiseljak Television."
3 May we slow down the tape now? This is the
4 village of Pogar. Shall we stop the tape here? We can
5 carry on at normal speed.
6 (Videotape played)
7 MR. NOBILO: This portion was now filmed by
8 the local television station of Kiseljak. You have the
9 date, the 4th of November, 1993, and the village of
10 Pogar. The village of Pogar is in the municipality of
12 These are the units of the BH army. You'll
13 be able to clearly see the insignia at some point, and
14 this is the point at which they are taking away things
15 from the village.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps we do not have to have
17 the second break but just work until 1.30 without a
18 break, unless there's an objection on the part of the
20 No objection? All right. Thank you very
21 much. I'm not saying that their work is easier, but
22 perhaps we could gain some time. Okay. We can
23 continue then without a break until 1.30.
24 Is there no sound for this?
25 MR. NOBILO: Probably because we decided to
1 speed it up, but more or less, there's nothing to
2 hear. The video is self-explanatory, so there really
3 isn't a soundtrack, I don't think.
4 JUDGE JORDA: If the interpreters can hear
5 something, I don't quite agree with Mr. Nobilo, the
6 soundtrack is important. Thank you. I thank the
7 interpreters for their explanations.
8 MR. NOBILO: It is very hard to discern the
9 sound because you can only hear background noise rather
10 than words.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The units should be lined
12 up. They should take off their arm bands and hand them
13 over to the commander.
14 Who sent this? I'd kill someone for this. I
15 found it under the bed.
16 Edited by Television Kiseljak. Fojnica,
17 village of Bakovici, village of burned down houses by
18 the BH army, the 7th Muslim Brigade, the 110th Mountain
19 Brigade, the Special Unit Dzo, the municipality burned
20 down of Fojnica, devastated and burnt down houses. Our
21 colleague, Marinko, was one of the first to get into
22 the burned out village. The Muslims left the whole
23 place mined.
24 MR. NOBILO: Selo Bakovici.
25 THE INTERPRETER: This is the village of
1 Bakovici, the house of Nikola Bosnjak. Burned down and
2 devastated Croatian houses. They were looted too.
3 Tiles were broken down. Everything was stolen,
4 electricity equipment, everything. We never found
5 anything in these houses, not even clothes or footwear,
7 The Catholic cemetery above the village,
8 while the fighting was going on in the town of Fojnica,
9 our soldiers were buried there. This is yet another
10 reason for us to have Bakovici remain Croatian once and
11 for all. Our team, nevertheless, managed to film as
12 much as possible. These are war crimes. This was
13 guided by feelings of hatred for everything Croatian.
14 They forget that our wish to return home is much
15 stronger than anything they can feel. We want to build
16 an even better Bakovici.
17 You can also see graffiti by the
18 semi-literate members of the Dzamahirija. They tried
19 to turn Bakovici into a Dzamahirija. Units from Foca
20 and Visegrad were there too. Dzo is probably the most
21 popular amongst all of them belonging to the special
22 units. We are going back towards Luzina from the
23 village of Bakovici.
24 The wild MOS units did terrible things here
25 too. They burned down. They looted. This makes us
1 very sad, but we have to show that we are not a
2 genocidal people, as they want to depict us. Although
3 they destroyed our homes, the mosque in Luzina still
4 remains intact.
5 There is only one single house that remained
6 intact, the one that belongs to the mentally retarded
7 Ivica Gatic, and let it be, because this is part of our
8 cultural, architectural heritage, and any state would
9 protect it.
10 This used to be the house of the late Pero
11 Glavocevic. Thirty years ago, a girl lived there
12 happily as her father and mother were building a house
13 in Sarajevsko Polje. Her grandmother told her nothing
14 remained, and there are only two little teapots there,
15 nothing else, but they still go by the Catholic
16 principle of forgiveness, and the only thing that we
17 can do is ask why. No waterworks, no nothing, but the
18 story about the cross is a bit different.
19 There was a wooden cross in the middle of
20 Tjesilo, a memorial, and it was a memento of times
21 past. The wooden cross, they tried to burn it down,
22 but they didn't manage to. Marijan found it. And
23 whenever they come and whenever they come and do
24 something, they do not respect anything that belongs to
25 other people, notably Croatian things, and then Marijan
1 finds the cross. And God gave this beautiful village,
2 and that beauty is still there, in spite of all the
4 As we sit in front of Marijan's house, and he
5 is filling it with heavenly water, and the snowy
6 mountain tops are there, and it is quite clear that
7 life will prevail here, in spite of everything.
8 I always wanted to come back to my own home, and I
9 would bring water from Bakovici. What can I do? Other
10 people like being in other people's houses and perhaps
11 they have reasons for doing so or they can't afford it
12 or whatever, but people cannot live off their pensions
13 or whatever. So these are problems. But even if you
14 invest a little, people can come back. And if they
15 don't want to come back, let it be.
16 Before Marijan, Ilija and Mato Mijatovic,
17 brothers, were the first to return. They were
18 persistent, even obstinate, and they managed to rebuild
19 their houses, to bring the livestock back, and here
20 they are living on their own land. Someone is going to
21 say it was easy for them. They were better off when
22 they were refugees than we were.
23 Then there is the story of other people who
24 were in Kiseljak and who tried to do their best in
25 order to keep the land and the orchards going. Things
1 will be better, and his son works in Austria and they
2 are going to do whatever they can. Well, we are going
3 to do whatever is possible.
4 Fifteen days ago I decided what to do and
5 then see what this looks like now. Can you see my
6 garden? And me and this little girl of mine, see what
7 we've done. That's the only thing I can tell you.
8 That's it. I haven't got much time to talk.
9 Marijan is impatient by nature, and it's not
10 easy for him to take things that are illogical. He
11 wonders why SFOR or somebody else does not have the
12 same yardsticks for reconstructing Croatian villages,
13 as well as those of others. However, life will go on
14 at Piescevo either with the help of the
15 International Community or not. You should go there
16 and you should see the scenic beauty there that is God
18 Production television Kiseljak, 13th of May,
20 MR. NOBILO: I think that that would be all,
21 Mr. President.
22 JUDGE JORDA: Is that the end of a part of
23 your documentary evidence for today?
24 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we shall be
25 presenting some other documents, but we have finished
1 for today. However, we would like to hear the position
2 of the Court on a certain problem. We showed
3 videotapes today as we received them on the ground in
4 Bosnia, and the Defence did not edit them in any way.
5 We learned from the comments and objections made by the
6 Prosecution when we give only partial evidence,
7 therefore, we felt it was incumbent upon us to show the
8 tapes in their entirety. However, we are going to
9 waste too much time if we do so. We think that in the
10 future we show only relevant parts of these videotapes,
11 a minute or two or three.
12 Can we have that kind of a ruling by the
13 Trial Chamber so that we don't have to show the video
14 footage in its entirety, because this was not really
15 recorded by professionals. It was done by people who
16 are not very knowledgeable about editing or anything,
17 and their films are not exactly dynamic. Because the
18 Defence has a very large number of videotapes and we
19 would be glad to make the Court aware of all the
20 relevant parts, but if we were to show everything, we
21 would require several months.
22 JUDGE JORDA: Several months. That would be
23 not a very good thing for your cause. I know that
24 Mr. Dubuisson is keeping track of the time. How much
25 time is left?
1 THE REGISTRAR: There are about 22 days left
2 for the Defence to complete its case.
3 JUDGE JORDA: It shall include the testimony
4 of the accused. Of course that issue was always
5 problematic, that is, what's considered to be relevant,
6 what isn't. In my country things are done a little
7 differently in courts, but we have to adopt ourselves
8 to the procedural Rules that are in effect here.
9 Let me turn to the Prosecution and ask what
10 they think. Mr. Harmon, you see what the problem is.
11 There is a video cassette, you take out a part, they
12 say it is relevant. Perhaps if you were to know the
13 source and had the cassette, perhaps you might in your
14 final argument show, for instance, that, yes, this part
15 was relevant for the Defence but we have objections.
16 But I don't know. Perhaps we can find a solution
18 MR. HARMON: How Mr. Nobilo and Mr. Hayman
19 run their case is their business, Mr. President. We
20 are certainly not interested in watching hours and
21 hours of tapes with various scenes that are in 1998,
22 1997, in 1996. We would certainly, in co-operation
23 with the Defence, if they have relevant portions of
24 tapes they want to show, they can show those tapes, and
25 if they would make the rest of the tapes available to
1 us, we could see if there are other portions of those
2 particular tapes that are of interest to us and
3 possibly to the Chamber.
4 JUDGE JORDA: I wonder whether the solution
5 wouldn't be to have the Defence present the relevant
6 parts, but to identify the cassette, to state what its
7 source is, and perhaps make -- actually, to make it
8 available to the Prosecutor who can look at it if he
9 wants to.
10 This is a problem that we have with written
11 documents. You saw that the other day. You showed
12 some of the parts of a decree which you considered to
13 be relevant, and the Prosecution asked that the entire
14 decree be provided. I will turn to my colleague and
15 friend Judge Shahabuddeen to have his opinion on the
16 question. Just a moment, please. Judge Shahabuddeen.
17 Judge Shahabuddeen would agree with what I
18 suggest. That is, the Defence would organise its case
19 as it likes, show the first images of the cassette to
20 show who filmed it, how it was filmed, when it was
21 filmed, and, possibly, Mr. Nobilo, make some comments.
22 Then we could show the relevant parts, but the entire
23 cassette would be made available to the Prosecution.
24 And by the final arguments the Prosecution might be
25 able to say, during those arguments, "I would like to
1 point out that Mr. Nobilo showed this or that picture
2 of a destroyed monastery but did not say that in this
3 cassette," et cetera.
4 Is that a solution that would be satisfactory
5 to everybody?
6 MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President, that would
7 be a satisfactory solution, if we get the complete
8 cassette, if we so desire. We have done that in the
9 past with the Defence, and we will certainly request
10 that the same procedure be followed.
11 JUDGE JORDA: I would first like to thank
12 Judge Shahabuddeen and then thank both of the parties
13 for co-operation. Perhaps we should move into private
14 session just so that we can deal with the organisation
15 of our work before we leave perhaps a few minutes
16 earlier today.
17 Are we in private session? Yes, we are.
18 (Private session)
13 Page 17591 redacted in private session
1 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at1:15 p.m. sine die.